Jackie Butler: Will The Knicks Match? (3-year, $7M)

[violentkitten]

i try not to sound like a broken record, i guess it helps?

yeah youre just the static in the background

[leemajors]

yeah youre just the static in the background

ooooh, damn that was almost witty. and with little latency, nonetheless.

[kobe_bryant]

sign the freakin dude already

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What's even more pathetic is according to news reports in Denver we offered Elson more than Butler. :pctoss

[leemajors]

but anyways, hope the knicks don't match. i still think the spurs can pull off some trades, but i am not hoping for too much. no one wants to be the team that helps the spurs out that much.

[MannyIsGod]

If the Knicks don't match this, the Spurs pull off a coup. If they do, then the Spurs look pretty damn stupid for not offering up enough.

Why don't you all let it play it out before you decide?

[leemajors]

If the Knicks don't match this, the Spurs pull off a coup. If they do, then the Spurs look pretty damn stupid for not offering up enough.

Why don't you all let it play it out before you decide?

i was right all along sounds better? :lol

[violentkitten]

If the Knicks don't match this, the Spurs pull off a coup. If they do, then the Spurs look pretty damn stupid for not offering up enough.

Why don't you all let it play it out before you decide?

ok, see you back here on june 20th or so, 2007.

[MannyIsGod]

Actually, after seeing that the offered Elson more, I already think the front office is stupid. WTF? Now if the Knicks match they are INCREDIBLY fucking stupid.

They still aren't cheap, but I'd rather have a cheap front office than a stupid one. What the flying fuck are they thinking? I'm going to be PISSED if they don't sign Butler.

[violentkitten]

dude, you just changed your mind in like 1.5 minutes. some kind of st.com record

[MannyIsGod]

dude, you just changed your mind in like 1.5 minutes. some kind of st.com recordFinding out that the Spurs offered Elson more than Butler requires drastic rethinking of the entire situation. I'm perplexed and I just hope that these fuckers know something about what it takes to get each respective player out of each team's hands that we dont' because on the surface those 2 contract offers don't make any fucking sense unless you reverse the numbers.

[ducks]

the spurs must have talked to their agents and found out what denver would match and would not and what knicks would match

and then offered them a little more

[Spurs9]

the spurs must have talked to their agents and found out what denver would match and would not and what knicks would match

and then offered them a little more
Thats exactly what I was thinking...Hopefully its right.

[ducks]

well I hope I am right on butler and wrong on elson

[infinite styles]

Spurs9 check your pm

[violentkitten]

Finding out that the Spurs offered Elson more than Butler requires drastic rethinking of the entire situation. I'm perplexed and I just hope that these fuckers know something about what it takes to get each respective player out of each team's hands that we dont' because on the surface those 2 contract offers don't make any fucking sense unless you reverse the numbers.

welcome to the dark side of spurs fandom. once you peek behind the curtain everything changes...

[MannyIsGod]

Elson is on my shit list if we don't get Butler.

[50 cent]

*crossing fingers*

Please don't match Isiah. Please!

I'm with the rest of you - if we get Butler, then I'm fine with Elson. If Isiah matches Butler, then getting Elson as our starting center is some fucking bullshit.

[Buddy Holly]

I don't think Spurs offer Butler less if they know Knicks will match.

[violentkitten]

but the spurs thriftiness is something to worship! :lmfao

[Buddy Holly]

but the spurs thriftiness is something to worship! :lmfao

Thirftness. :lol

[picnroll]

Could Spurs put in a poison pill like if Butler doesn't average 20 minutes a game he has the option to become an unrestricted FA.

[violentkitten]

how about the ever dangerous...'team must provide socks' clause?

[timvp]

3 years, $7 million????

That's like 6 games' salary for their stable of point guards. They'll match that with the Franchise's strip club tip money.

Yeah, it's pretty hopeless.

Perhaps the Spurs faxed the wrong proposal to the wrong guy. They might be the only scouts in the world who view Elson as better than Butler.

[timvp]

Butler is served
Knicks center gets Spurs' offer
BY FRANK ISOLA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Jackie Butler signed a three-year, $7 million offer sheet with the San Antonio Spurs yesterday, but the Knicks, according to sources, intend to the keep the 21-year-old center.

The Knicks have seven days to match the offer or work out a sign-and-trade for Butler, a player Isiah Thomas uncovered in the CBA two years ago.

Joining the Spurs would be more beneficial to Butler because it would give him an opportunity to start alongside Tim Duncan and play with a perennial contender. The Spurs lost Nazr Mohammed to free agency and traded Rasho Nesterovic. In New York, Butler would be playing behind Eddy Curry and Jerome James.

The Knicks made a qualifying offer of $900,000 to Butler and questioned whether he could get a better deal. Thomas even predicted that negotiations with Butler would extend into September.

"My summer is much shorter," said Butler's agent, Keith Glass.

The 6-10, 265-pound Butler averaged 5.3 points, 3.3 rebounds and shot 54% from the field in 55 games with the Knicks. He is regarded as a better low-post player than James. By re-signing Butler, Thomas has the flexibility to include him in a trade if he cannot move James. Butler also provides insurance if Curry or James is injured.

Butler's increased role last season - he played more minutes than James - created some animosity between Thomas and former coach Larry Brown. Some in the front office felt that Brown favored Butler because he is represented by the son of Brown's agent, Joe Glass. The Knicks fired Brown last month and are trying to void the final four years of his contract, worth $40 million. Brown maintained that he simply felt that Butler was the better player.

"Without being coy about it, Larry is a part of my family," Keith Glass said from Las Vegas. "I clearly have thoughts and emotions and my emotions lie with them. Jackie has nothing to do with that. I've always understood that."

:depressed

[polandprzem]

Is this a nightmare?

Wake me up in November.

[Mr. Body]

Wheee!!!

I'm not sure why they even bothered. They just didn't want money available for a week?

[milkyway21]

they offered less money for Butler bec they knew the Knicks will match? that's the way i look at it.

Because the Knicks' payroll exceeds the league's luxury tax, Butler's $7million contract could cost them twice as much.

WE STILL HAVE THE CHANCE TO NAB BUTLER. Hope so.

[Mr. Body]

They knew New York would match? Why would they offer then?

Unless they never wanted to spend the money.

[timvp]

Perhaps the Spurs can work out a sign and trade with the Knicks. How about Oberto, cash and draft picks?

That'd work under the cap.

[timvp]

BTW, a sign-and-trade could happen if all parties agree to rescind the offersheet.

That is probably the Spurs' best chance.

[GhostofAlfrederickHughes]

BTW, a sign-and-trade could happen if all parties agree to rescind the offersheet.

That is probably the Spurs' best chance.Who would we give to the Knicks, though? All our fat, bloated contracts are already gone!

:lol

[Streakyshooter08]

According to the ny post the Knicks unlikely match the offer :wakeup :spin :smokin

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/butler_signs_spurs_7m_offer_knicks_marc_berman.htm


BUTLER SIGNS SPURS' $7M OFFER

By MARC BERMAN

July 13, 2006 -- In a shock to the Knicks, center Jackie Butler signed a staggering three-year, $7 million offer sheet with the Spurs on the first day of the free-agent signing period yesterday, according to sources.
The Knicks have seven days to match the offer but it's unlikely they will go that high. Isiah Thomas said through a spokesman that no decision has been made. The Knicks made Butler a $920,000 qualifying offer to keep him restricted. Butler is their third-string center, but is viewed as valuable in case Jerome James were to report out of shape. Butler, 21, showed potential in parts of two seasons with the Knicks as a low-post scorer.

The Spurs are desperate for a big man after losing their two centers - Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic. Thomas said Monday he expected it to be "a long summer" regarding Butler's situation.

"My summer just got a lot shorter," said agent Keith Glass, who is close friends with Larry Brown. "We're grateful the Knicks pulled him out of the CBA. They were obviously correct to do that. I think San Antonio is a great place for him. If the Knicks choose to match, it shows they wanted him as well."




------------------------
The hope is there, though I don't know much a about him but if so many ppl around here would welcome him he might have some skills...

[JGrice02]

Is it just me or does 3 yr @ $7 million not sound "shockingly high"?

[Extra Stout]

BTW, a sign-and-trade could happen if all parties agree to rescind the offersheet.

That is probably the Spurs' best chance.
I don't think they can do that once it's signed.

Why are you so worried about players? If they hang any more banners at the AT&T, it will start to clutter up the aesthetic.

[101A]

Keith Glass, who is close friends with Larry Brown. ...

And Pop is.....


The Spurs are playing w/a stacked deck.

[leemajors]

According to the ny post the Knicks unlikely match the offer :wakeup :spin :smokin

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/butler_signs_spurs_7m_offer_knicks_marc_berman.htm


BUTLER SIGNS SPURS' $7M OFFER

By MARC BERMAN

July 13, 2006 -- In a shock to the Knicks, center Jackie Butler signed a staggering three-year, $7 million offer sheet with the Spurs on the first day of the free-agent signing period yesterday, according to sources.
The Knicks have seven days to match the offer but it's unlikely they will go that high. Isiah Thomas said through a spokesman that no decision has been made. The Knicks made Butler a $920,000 qualifying offer to keep him restricted. Butler is their third-string center, but is viewed as valuable in case Jerome James were to report out of shape. Butler, 21, showed potential in parts of two seasons with the Knicks as a low-post scorer.

The Spurs are desperate for a big man after losing their two centers - Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic. Thomas said Monday he expected it to be "a long summer" regarding Butler's situation.

"My summer just got a lot shorter," said agent Keith Glass, who is close friends with Larry Brown. "We're grateful the Knicks pulled him out of the CBA. They were obviously correct to do that. I think San Antonio is a great place for him. If the Knicks choose to match, it shows they wanted him as well."


i hope james is working out right now with a trash bag cape.

------------------------
The hope is there, though I don't know much a about him but if so many ppl around here would welcome him he might have some skills...

[spurster]

July 13, 2006 -- In a shock to the Knicks, center Jackie Butler signed a staggering three-year, $7 million offer sheet with the Spurs on the first day of the free-agent signing period yesterday, according to sources.
Shocking? Staggering? To the Knicks??

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

In a shock to the Knicks, center Jackie Butler signed a staggering three-year, $7 million offer sheet with the Spurs on the first day of the free-agent signing period yesterday, according to sources.

Staggering? This is the Knicks.... :lol

[violentkitten]

According to the ny post the Knicks unlikely match the offer :wakeup :spin :smokin

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/butler_signs_spurs_7m_offer_knicks_marc_berman.htm


BUTLER SIGNS SPURS' $7M OFFER

By MARC BERMAN

July 13, 2006 -- In a shock to the Knicks, center Jackie Butler signed a staggering three-year, $7 million offer sheet with the Spurs on the first day of the free-agent signing period yesterday, according to sources.
The Knicks have seven days to match the offer but it's unlikely they will go that high. Isiah Thomas said through a spokesman that no decision has been made. The Knicks made Butler a $920,000 qualifying offer to keep him restricted. Butler is their third-string center, but is viewed as valuable in case Jerome James were to report out of shape. Butler, 21, showed potential in parts of two seasons with the Knicks as a low-post scorer.


it's the post. you can almost hear the laughter when berman typed that.

[violentkitten]

I don't think they can do that once it's signed.

Why are you so worried about players? If they hang any more banners at the AT&T, it will start to clutter up the aesthetic.

as long as all parties agree, the signed offer sheet can be rescinded.

[SenorSpur]

I don't know if this has already been posted, but here's an article from the NY Daily news on the Knicks intention to match the Butler contract

Butler is served

Knicks center gets Spurs' offer

BY FRANK ISOLA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Jackie Butler signed a three-year, $7 million offer sheet with the San Antonio Spurs yesterday, but the Knicks, according to sources, intend to the keep the 21-year-old center.
The Knicks have seven days to match the offer or work out a sign-and-trade for Butler, a player Isiah Thomas uncovered in the CBA two years ago.

Joining the Spurs would be more beneficial to Butler because it would give him an opportunity to start alongside Tim Duncan and play with a perennial contender. The Spurs lost Nazr Mohammed to free agency and traded Rasho Nesterovic. In New York, Butler would be playing behind Eddy Curry and Jerome James.

The Knicks made a qualifying offer of $900,000 to Butler and questioned whether he could get a better deal. Thomas even predicted that negotiations with Butler would extend into September.

"My summer is much shorter," said Butler's agent, Keith Glass.

The 6-10, 265-pound Butler averaged 5.3 points, 3.3 rebounds and shot 54% from the field in 55 games with the Knicks. He is regarded as a better low-post player than James. By re-signing Butler, Thomas has the flexibility to include him in a trade if he cannot move James. Butler also provides insurance if Curry or James is injured.

Butler's increased role last season - he played more minutes than James - created some animosity between Thomas and former coach Larry Brown. Some in the front office felt that Brown favored Butler because he is represented by the son of Brown's agent, Joe Glass. The Knicks fired Brown last month and are trying to void the final four years of his contract, worth $40 million. Brown maintained that he simply felt that Butler was the better player.

"Without being coy about it, Larry is a part of my family," Keith Glass said from Las Vegas. "I clearly have thoughts and emotions and my emotions lie with them. Jackie has nothing to do with that. I've always understood that."

[MajorMike]

I really really hope we get Butler for one simple reason. He's the 1st guy on here that the general populous of this board hasn't cruxifiedand he is almost seen as a savior at this point for our 5 hole.

[violentkitten]

um the forum was throwing roses at mohammed's feet when he arrived

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

People just need to get used to the idea we won't get Butler. That way less people on the site will be slitting their wrists when the Knicks stop laughing long enough to match it.

[Budkin]

^^

Thanks for the links ace3g but you can't post links to NBA video here.

As for the whole Butler thing, we all need to just accept right now that the Knicks are going to match, get the disappointment over with now. Let's just still hope we have time to get Javtokas back. :depressed

[ace3g]

oh sorry forgot about that, I will get rid of them, if that is the case though then why doesnt the NBA crack down on youtube. there are so many nba highlight videos on that site

[Budkin]

oh sorry forgot about that, I will get rid of them, if that is the case though then why doesnt the NBA crack down on youtube. there are so many nba highlight videos on that site

Kori and LJ like to be overly cautious about this because the site gets so much traffic and they don't want to be driving traffic specifically to NBA videos that violate copyright laws. They said other sites have been shut down for it. If they were on NBA.com it would be a different story.

[Budkin]

Reading the Knicks forums around, they are thrilled that we only offerred 7 million over 3 years.


The Knicks are definitely matching that offer...Plus the Spurs worked out a pretty good deal for us for 3 years...In the end, it worked out perfectly!


That's what happens when we let the Spurs do our paperwork...The Knicks probably would have paid 3 yrs/9 mil, if not more...Thanks again Spurs!

:depressed

[Mr. Body]

I'll pretend we get Butler for a little while longer, because I really can't countenance Francisco Elson as our big free agent signing this summer.

[Supergirl]

Where does it say they intend to match? I think they're just outlining the pros and cons. The other article specifically said they were "unlikely to match."

It's a lot of money for a team that has 2 centers being paid a lot already. Matching would basically be admitting they fucked up when they took on James and Curry's contracts. We all know they did, but will the Knicks (read: Thomas) admit it?


I don't know if this has already been posted, but here's an article from the NY Daily news on the Knicks intention to match the Butler contract

Butler is served

Knicks center gets Spurs' offer

BY FRANK ISOLA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Jackie Butler signed a three-year, $7 million offer sheet with the San Antonio Spurs yesterday, but the Knicks, according to sources, intend to the keep the 21-year-old center.
The Knicks have seven days to match the offer or work out a sign-and-trade for Butler, a player Isiah Thomas uncovered in the CBA two years ago.

Joining the Spurs would be more beneficial to Butler because it would give him an opportunity to start alongside Tim Duncan and play with a perennial contender. The Spurs lost Nazr Mohammed to free agency and traded Rasho Nesterovic. In New York, Butler would be playing behind Eddy Curry and Jerome James.

The Knicks made a qualifying offer of $900,000 to Butler and questioned whether he could get a better deal. Thomas even predicted that negotiations with Butler would extend into September.

"My summer is much shorter," said Butler's agent, Keith Glass.

The 6-10, 265-pound Butler averaged 5.3 points, 3.3 rebounds and shot 54% from the field in 55 games with the Knicks. He is regarded as a better low-post player than James. By re-signing Butler, Thomas has the flexibility to include him in a trade if he cannot move James. Butler also provides insurance if Curry or James is injured.

Butler's increased role last season - he played more minutes than James - created some animosity between Thomas and former coach Larry Brown. Some in the front office felt that Brown favored Butler because he is represented by the son of Brown's agent, Joe Glass. The Knicks fired Brown last month and are trying to void the final four years of his contract, worth $40 million. Brown maintained that he simply felt that Butler was the better player.

"Without being coy about it, Larry is a part of my family," Keith Glass said from Las Vegas. "I clearly have thoughts and emotions and my emotions lie with them. Jackie has nothing to do with that. I've always understood that."

[furry_spurry]

Right here:

the Knicks, according to sources, intend to the keep the 21-year-old center.

[MannyIsGod]

Um, read the first paragraph again.

[picnroll]

Why didn't the Spurs put a guaranteed minutes clause in the contract or player can opt out?

[Mr. Body]

I'd bank on the Knicks keeping Butler. They have the money, will spend it, and will use him more than likely in a trade.

[Spurminator]

:lol @ "staggering"

I'm still wondering if there was a hint of sarcasm in that line...

[timvp]

Knicks' Butler signs offer sheet with Spurs
BY GREG LOGAN
Newsday Staff Writer

July 13, 2006, 12:11 PM EDT

Third-string Knicks center Jackie Butler signed an offer sheet worth $7 million over three years with San Antonio when the NBA free-agent signing period opened on Wednesday. Butler is a restricted free agent, so, the Knicks can retain his services by matching the deal within one week.

Team president/coach Isiah Thomas, who is in Las Vegas for the Knicks' final summer league game today, said the team had made no decision yet on Butler and indicated they are likely to wait the full seven days.

The Knicks have the highest payroll in the league, but Butler's deal could well be too rich for them to match. Because they must pay the NBA's dollar-for-dollar luxury tax, the Knicks actually would have to budget $14 million over three years for a third-string center when they already have to pay Eddy Curry $48.64 million over the next five years and Jerome James $24 million over four seasons.

That seems excessive unless they are worried about whether James will report in shape. He was injured in training camp last season, spent 23 games on the inactive list with various ailments and did not play in 14 other games. Butler appeared in 55 games, averaging 5.2 points and 3.2 rebounds.

Butler is represented by agent Keith Glass, who is the son of Joe Glass, the agent for former coach Larry Brown, who was fired with $40 million remaining on his contract. Butler was considered one of Brown's pet projects, but he actually was acquired by Thomas before Brown was hired. So, a decision on Butler likely will come down to basketball and financial considerations, not politics.

Butler is a hard-working low-post scorer who needs work on defense but gives consistent effort. If the Knicks play a fast-paced style, as expected under Thomas, they might go small more often, featuring their abundance of forwards and guards, which would make Butler more expendable.

All this false hope is going to make it suck that much more when the Knicks match.

:depressed

[Kori Ellis]

That seems excessive unless they are worried about whether James will report in shape. He was injured in training camp last season, spent 23 games on the inactive list with various ailments and did not play in 14 other games. Butler appeared in 55 games, averaging 5.2 points and 3.2 rebounds.

23 + 14 + 55 = 92

I guess the season seems damn long in NY. :drunk

I think the 14 should be four.

[Mr. Body]

Kori, I think he's talking about two different players.

[Kori Ellis]

Kori, I think he's talking about two different players.

Ahh, that's true.

Sorry. I read it as the whole thing about Butler.
ESPN.com says James played in 44 games. Still doesn't add up to 82, but close :drunk

[Mr. Body]

Ahh, that's true.

Sorry. I read it as the whole thing about Butler.


It's all about Butler with you, isn't it?

ISN'T IT?!

:princess :angel :lol

[timvp]

The initial reports all said the Knicks would match. The latest reports are saying that they might not match.

I wonder if there is any substance behind any of this or just NY media talking in circles.

[Mr. Body]

Kind of weird.

It might do well to record who said what--

I'm guessing NYT, Daily News, Newsday (L.I. paper), the Post, etc., all have different and/or overlapping sources. My guess is the Knicks org is dysfunctional enough that communication is pretty bad.

[strangeweather]

I wonder if there is any substance behind any of this or just NY media talking in circles.
When in doubt, it's always safe to bet on the NY media talking in circles.

[strangeweather]

Kind of weird.

It might do well to record who said what--

I'm guessing NYT, Daily News, Newsday (L.I. paper), the Post, etc., all have different and/or overlapping sources. My guess is the Knicks org is dysfunctional enough that communication is pretty bad.
It could be that sources close to Isiah are saying that of course they'll match and sources close to Dolan are saying that they don't need to spend the money.

I would laugh my ass off if Dolan took this as an opportunity to cut Zeke off at the knees. :lol

[Mr. Body]

I would laugh my ass off if Dolan took this as an opportunity to cut Zeke off at the knees.

I'd laugh my butt off, too, then say a little prayer of thanks.

[picnroll]

Could be that Knicks are looking for a favorable S&T and if they can't get one they let him walk, i.e., they don't know what they'll do.

[strangeweather]

I'd laugh my butt off, too, then say a little prayer of thanks.
That too, for sure!

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Knicks have the highest payroll in the league, but Butler's deal could well be too rich for them to match. Because they must pay the NBA's dollar-for-dollar luxury tax, the Knicks actually would have to budget $14 million over three years for a third-string center when they already have to pay Eddy Curry $48.64 million over the next five years and Jerome James $24 million over four seasons.

Maybe the Spurs knew what they were doing after all with this offer.

[SpursChampsIII]

if the spurs feel that strongly about butler they should've just sent more of the mle his way and forgotten about fing around with san francisco elson. maybe they could've told javtokas to wait

I thought that if the Spurs really wanted Butler, they should have thrown $3M at them, and I don't think the Knicks would have matched that.

[strangeweather]

I thought that if the Spurs really wanted Butler, they should have thrown $3M at them, and I don't think the Knicks would have matched that.
If the Knicks want to keep somebody, anything we offer is going to be chump change for them. Our main hope is that they decide that they are up to their eyeballs in guys already and don't need him.

[ChumpDumper]

We all know if it's just up to Zeke they'll match -- he'll just stockpile him to trade after December. The question is whether Dolan is on the same page.

[Spurologist]

Any report on where Butler wants to play in the upcoming season?

His choice of playing with TD as a starter and being a conteder for a title or joining the debacle that is "I hope we can at least sniff the playoffs" knicks. It's so clear that even Stephen A Smith could answer that question.

Knickerbockers or Spurs?

[Mr. Body]

Butler hasn't said anything AFAIK, but is known to want to get out of New York.

[ChumpDumper]

It sure looks like there is a great opportunity for Butler here to get a ton of minutes, if not start. At the very best on a healthy Knick roster, he would be the second big man off the bench.

[ro_50]

You know what, this could be a bluff move by the Spurs.

They offer Jackie Butler a offer sheet knowing the Knicks could match, and then turn around and w/ half of the MLE left, offer it to someone like Trevor Ariza or a young wing.

The Knicks are one of the teams Ariza is interested in but that would take them out of the running by matching for Butler.

I dont know, just a thought.

[Mr. Body]

It all comes down to Jerome James. Without that awful signing last summer, the Spurs wouldn't even be trying this. He's 31, fat, lazy, and has shown nothing more than an affection for garbage bags and one good series (ironicallly) against the Spurs.

If New York feels they can get him playing well enough to trade him, then they'll keep Butler.

If they decide to eat James's salary in some way, stashing him deep on the bench, then it's more likely they keep Butler.

I can't imagine what's Dolan's mind set on this, but know they're in meetings about it now.

[ChumpDumper]

His good series was against the Kings.

[Mr. Body]

You know what, this could be a bluff move by the Spurs.

They offer Jackie Butler a offer sheet knowing the Knicks could match, and then turn around and w/ half of the MLE left, offer it to someone like Trevor Ariza or a young wing.

The Knicks are one of the teams Ariza is interested in but that would take them out of the running by matching for Butler.

I dont know, just a thought.

I personally would love Ariza, but there's no indication Pop wants him. Ariza might be a plan-B with the money, but I don't doubt Butler is the guy they really want.

[Mr. Body]

His good series was against the Kings.

Then I'm mistaken. I have memories of lots of pick-and-rolls for monster dunks against us. I'd say he actually had a good postseason all around, including versus us.

[jman3000]

It all comes down to Jerome James. Without that awful signing last summer, the Spurs wouldn't even be trying this. He's 31, fat, lazy, and has shown nothing more than an affection for garbage bags and one good series (ironicallly) against the Spurs.

If New York feels they can get him playing well enough to trade him, then they'll keep Butler.

If they decide to eat James's salary in some way, stashing him deep on the bench, then it's more likely they keep Butler.

I can't imagine what's Dolan's mind set on this, but know they're in meetings about it now.
I would say his 1 good series was against the Kings just prior to the Spurs... Brad Miller made him look like Shaq.

[ChumpDumper]

He did have some dunks, but he never donned the garbage bag.

[jman3000]

That performance had 1 hit wonder written all over it. I still can't believe the Knicks gave him that contract ... the dude was a scrub his entire life and he has 1 good series and they open up the purse for him. It's why the Knicks are #1.

[benjirh]

I really want Butler. But before we get too hyped about him being our next savior at the 5 lets remember a few things:

1. He played more than 20 mins in a whopping 11 games. 7 of those came in April when neither the Knicks or Brown had anything to play for and 6 of them were blowouts.

2. He scored over 15 points twice(18 was his high), never had a double digit rebound game(9, three times), and blocked more than one shot only 6 times.

3. J O'neal was a known to have potential. He was drafted 17th out of HS. Butler has never had that kind of hype.

4. Butler has never started a game.

5. He had one hot week where he went for 13.5ppg, 8.0rpg, 65%fg, 26.5mpg in 4 games. The other 51 were 4.8ppg, 3.0rpg, 52%fg, 12.5mpg.

I am not saying I don't want him. But the contract we offered lines up perfectly with these numbers. I am tired of offering bloated contracts on big men. Nazr turned down a contract around the MLE and Butler is worth about half the MLE. And I am not sold that he would even be a starter. Maybe as the year went on.

[Mr. Body]

He did have some dunks, but he never donned the garbage bag.

1) They lost the series.

2) Rick Adelman "handed him the garbage bag," not Pop.

He was pretty good against us.

[Beer is Good]

I have to honestly say that I had absolutely no reason to watch the Knicks last year. None. So therefore I know absolutely nothing about Butler. Would someone who has watched him play and is at least somewhat knowledgeable of what he brings to the table please give an opinion of what he would bring to the Spurs? Is it at least reasonable to expect that he would be an upgrade over Nasho?

[ChumpDumper]

Jerome

vs. Kings: 17.2 pts, 9.4 reb, .581 FG

vs. Spurs: 8.5 pts, 4.7 reb, .427 FG

[Beer is Good]

Jerome

vs. Kings: 17.2 pts, 9.4 reb, .581 FG

vs. Spurs: 8.5 pts, 4.7 reb, .427 FG
The Kings series is where Kenny Smith kept referring to him as "Bill Russell". I guess Zeke took him seriously :lol

[Mr. Body]

BIG-- I get to see Knicks games, living in New York.

The guy hustles. He seems to care about the game and is one of those guys who just plays hard. In a dismal situation, far out of the playoffs, he played hard, and it seemed not just for a contract. He has soft hands, a decent touch. He's really big but moves it pretty well. He could become a nice post scorer with the right tutors and he's a good rebounder. Seems to be a decent passer. I can't say much about his defense - not much on that team. He's foul prone. Could have weight problems. We didn't see a huge amount from him yet.

His ceiling is much higher than what Nasho gave us. I don't expect a star, but a solid longtime center is possible. The potential for 15/10/1 block.

[jman3000]

2 words: Brad Miller

[Beer is Good]

BIG-- I get to see Knicks games, living in New York.

The guy hustles. He seems to care about the game and is one of those guys who just plays hard. In a dismal situation, far out of the playoffs, he played hard, and it seemed not just for a contract. He has soft hands, a decent touch. He's really big but moves it pretty well. He could become a nice post scorer with the right tutors and he's a good rebounder. Seems to be a decent passer. I can't say much about his defense - not much on that team. He's foul prone. Could have weight problems. We didn't see a huge amount from him yet.

His ceiling is much higher than what Nasho gave us. I don't expect a star, but a solid longtime center is possible. The potential for 15/10/1 block.

Thanks for the evo... hopefully in the Spur's system he could be effective - if the Knicks don't match.

[Obstructed_View]

If the Spurs end up with Elson and Butler, plus getting out from under Rasho and Malik's contracts once and for all, throwing in Bonner and Williams, this is a pretty decent upgrade of the team AFAIC. The Spurs need guys in the center that go hard to the hoop and are capable of catching the ball on the high/lo from Duncan. Once they learn the defensive system all you need is that they get a few rebounds and don't foul out.

[violentkitten]

If the Spurs end up with Elson and Butler, plus getting out from under Rasho and Malik's contracts once and for all, throwing in Bonner and Williams, this is a pretty decent upgrade of the team AFAIC. The Spurs need guys in the center that go hard to the hoop and are capable of catching the ball on the high/lo from Duncan. Once they learn the defensive system all you need is that they get a few rebounds and don't foul out.

:spin

youre kidding yourself. at best the spurs draw elson. worst offseason of the duncan era.

[baseline bum]

:spin

youre kidding yourself. at best the spurs draw elson. worst offseason of the duncan era.

I don't know. As bad as it looks, I still can't see it being worse than the Chucky Brown & Samaki Walker offseason of '99.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Did anyone else come in with Cherokee Parks?

[Obstructed_View]

:spin

youre kidding yourself. at best the spurs draw elson. worst offseason of the duncan era.
Whatever. The Spurs get basically the same caliber centers for less money, plus get another shooter, a backup defender and a third string PG with cartilage in his knees and two elbows. They get quicker and younger and stay under the cap, plus they retain the flexibility to bring in the draft picks later.

[Beer is Good]

Whatever. The Spurs get basically the same caliber centers for less money, plus get another shooter, a backup defender and a third string PG with cartilage in his knees and two elbows. They get quicker and younger and stay under the cap, plus they retain the flexibility to bring in the draft picks later.
I see the same thing. I don't know why our "instant gratification" buddies here have such a huge problem with this off season. There was nothing to go after this year, and Scola and Javtokas are not ready to contribute for the amount of money they would cost.

[SsKSpurs21]

i was wondering this...

if the spurs cannot find a center, and ian mahinmi does well in summer leagues, could they bring him in this year? just a thought.

[T Park]

still can't see it being worse than the Chucky Brown & Samaki Walker offseason of '99.


After failing to get Derek Fisher and Lamond Murray.

[T Park]

Theres another thread saying the Knicks MIGHT NOT match.


Still early stages of the RFA period, but could it happen???

[baseline bum]

After failing to get Derek Fisher and Lamond Murray.

Don't forget having Tyrone Nesby signed and then matched by the Clippers. I was in shock when I saw Aldridge say the Spurs signed Fisher that year. Why in the hell would they want the guy who's only moment of the playoffs was taking a pass off the face to blow game 2 vs the Spurs? Little fucker showed me when he shot 75% from the 3-point line in the 2001 WCF. :pctoss

[T Park]

[QUOTE]on't forget having Tyrone Nesby signed and then matched by the Clippers.

I believe a certain paranormal poster was heavily in favor of getting Tyrone Nesby.

Wasn't Fisher a RFA too?


Maybe this is the Spurs's offseason for lucky RFA non matches.



BTW, anyone else seen that about the KNicks maybe NOT matchign Butler?

THat thread got locked up cause supposedly it had been posted elsewhere.

[T Park]

Little fucker showed me when he shot 75% from the 3-point line in the 2001 WCF.

and in the same playoffs was huge in beating the Sixers for the ring.

[pache100]

It's so clear that even Stephen A Smith could answer that question.

Speaking of the devil...what has happened to him?

[SenorSpur]

BIG-- I get to see Knicks games, living in New York.

The guy hustles. He seems to care about the game and is one of those guys who just plays hard. In a dismal situation, far out of the playoffs, he played hard, and it seemed not just for a contract. He has soft hands, a decent touch. He's really big but moves it pretty well. He could become a nice post scorer with the right tutors and he's a good rebounder. Seems to be a decent passer. I can't say much about his defense - not much on that team. He's foul prone. Could have weight problems. We didn't see a huge amount from him yet.

His ceiling is much higher than what Nasho gave us. I don't expect a star, but a solid longtime center is possible. The potential for 15/10/1 block.

Thanks for the summation. OK, you got me. I'm convinced. I like the fact that he (Butler) is young, hungry and a developing talent. I hope the Knicks don't match.

I'm reminded back to last summer when the Mavs took a chance on a young, developing center named Desgana Diop. With the proper structure around him (diet, training, improved practice habits), he turned out OK.

That said, I'm of the opinion that the acquisition of Butler would offset whatever deficiencies Elson may bring. As replacement bigs for the Nasho tandem, they probably would complement each other well. If the Spurs can somehow come out of all this with both guys, then it will have been well worth the risk. I shudder to think what will happen if they don't get both guys or if they come out of this with only Elson (good God).

Of course if that scenario does occur, I would wonder if the Spurs would then still feel compelled to pursue that long-awaited, athletic 3-man they so desparately need (i.e Ariza or Q. Woods). I hope so.

[furry_spurry]

The Spurs need guys in the center that go hard to the hoop and are capable of catching the ball on the high/lo from Duncan.
And you think this is Elson? :lol And his basketball IQ rivals Nazr's, so don't expect any great quick understanding of the defense, either.

[Mr. Body]

Kudos, SenorSpur, for the proper spelling of the word 'complement.' :spin

I can't think of any reason why a team would give an offer sheet to Elson, much less one about twice what he's worth.

If we get Butler, it makes things significantly better. He'd be one of the few guys on our bench who could come in and do some terrific things for a spell, really casting a game our way with hustle and determination.

I fully expect Isiah to match.

[SenorSpur]

Kudos, SenorSpur, for the proper spelling of the word 'complement.' :spin

I can't think of any reason why a team would give an offer sheet to Elson, much less one about twice what he's worth.

If we get Butler, it makes things significantly better. He'd be one of the few guys on our bench who could come in and do some terrific things for a spell, really casting a game our way with hustle and determination.

I fully expect Isiah to match.

By now, I'm sure you saw the piece below



Knicks' Butler signs offer sheet with Spurs
BY GREG LOGAN
Newsday Staff Writer

July 13, 2006, 12:11 PM EDT

Third-string Knicks center Jackie Butler signed an offer sheet worth $7 million over three years with San Antonio when the NBA free-agent signing period opened on Wednesday. Butler is a restricted free agent, so, the Knicks can retain his services by matching the deal within one week.

Team president/coach Isiah Thomas, who is in Las Vegas for the Knicks' final summer league game today, said the team had made no decision yet on Butler and indicated they are likely to wait the full seven days.

The Knicks have the highest payroll in the league, but Butler's deal could well be too rich for them to match. Because they must pay the NBA's dollar-for-dollar luxury tax, the Knicks actually would have to budget $14 million over three years for a third-string center when they already have to pay Eddy Curry $48.64 million over the next five years and Jerome James $24 million over four seasons.

That seems excessive unless they are worried about whether James will report in shape. He was injured in training camp last season, spent 23 games on the inactive list with various ailments and did not play in 14 other games. Butler appeared in 55 games, averaging 5.2 points and 3.2 rebounds.

Butler is represented by agent Keith Glass, who is the son of Joe Glass, the agent for former coach Larry Brown, who was fired with $40 million remaining on his contract. Butler was considered one of Brown's pet projects, but he actually was acquired by Thomas before Brown was hired. So, a decision on Butler likely will come down to basketball and financial considerations, not politics.

Butler is a hard-working low-post scorer who needs work on defense but gives consistent effort. If the Knicks play a fast-paced style, as expected under Thomas, they might go small more often, featuring their abundance of forwards and guards, which would make Butler more expendable.

Reading that, I'm somewhat encouraged that perhaps Knicks owner, James Dolan, will choose not to match the offer.

Mr. Body I will defer to you since you live in the Big Apple and have a substantial amount of Knicks insight.

BTW, As a former Washington Elementary School Spelling Bee Champion, I thank you for the compliment. :lol

[Mr. Body]

I dunno. I don't know Dolan's mind. My feeling is he'll give Isiah a lot of rope this year to either build a bridge or hang himself, so if IT wants Butler, then he'll sign Butler. I don't think Isiah's in extreme detention, like some people believe. Dolan wants him to succeed and the bar isn't that high.

I feel all Isiah has to do is show him some of the nifty, far-ranging trades he has on the boards (Francis here, Martin there, etc.), none of which needing to have any likelihood of success, and say that having Butler is a big part of them, as back up. Dolan will sign. We have to remember the crown prince and pole setter of NYC sports is Steinbrenner. I can see young Dolan emulating him.

I sure hope they don't. It's a crazy bad offseason if the Spurs don't get him.

[ChumpDumper]

I think the rope year was last year.

[Mr. Body]

I disagree. Everything bad last year was Larry Brown's fault.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm talking financially.

[Mr. Body]

well, we'll see. I just think Isiah can talk Dolan into an idea of some grand vision. Dolan- he ain't too bright. It's also not his money. It's daddy's.

[T Park]

Everything bad last year was Larry Brown's fault

puhlease....

[Mr. Body]

T Park. Reading comprehension please.

I'm not saying it was all Brown's fault; they are. He's being scapegoated.

[T Park]

You just said It was.

You didn't say "Knicks Management thinks"

But I agree, he was totally scapegoated, and the ownership is beyond stupid for trusting Thomas.

Hopefully ownership is yanking the strings on the budget for Butler :spin

[Obstructed_View]

And you think this is Elson? :lol And his basketball IQ rivals Nazr's, so don't expect any great quick understanding of the defense, either.
This is the Jackie Butler thread. Elson should get something Nazr never got when he was here: training camp.

[timvp]

Ime Udoka, the 15th player on the Knicks who they'd have to cut to keep Butler, led New York's summer league team in scoring today in a win over the Wizards. If they want to keep him, I don't see how they can match on Butler.

The bad thing though is that it was his first good game of summer league.

But who knows.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

you gotta be shittin me

i thought for sure we'd have some news today

so i waited 9 hours for the same old crap

[Mr. Body]

There won't be any news for a week or so.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

this is so lame
So whats the point of even blogging until then?
We've been talking in circles since 12 hours after this thread's creation :lol

[Mr. Body]

I'm driving up my post count. Don't know about anybody else.

[Russ]

Ime Udoka, the 15th player on the Knicks who they'd have to cut to keep Butler, led New York's summer league team in scoring today in a win over the Wizards. If they want to keep him, I don't see how they can match on Butler.

Udoka looks like a 30 year old G-F tweener.

Come to think of it, I hope he's not the "real" target of the Spurs' shenanigans with Butler. :rolleyes

[Spurologist]

The bottom line about Jackie Butler is he is probably not happy in New York. He is NY's 2nd string center at Best as long as cheeseburger is there.

I don't see how Isiah plans to include in his philosophy or debacle game plan (whatever you prefer). He already has talented big men in Lee and Fyre and uhhhh Balkman? I think if NY matches the 3 yr $7, he will be well grounded in that NY bench. It's not like Isiah will pull a Larry Brown by picking players out a hat and putting them into that starting lineup. You know what, I don't even who what he will do.

Out of all of that, I have come to the conclusion that NY WILL NOT match the offer by the spurs.

It all makes perfect sense

[Mr. Body]

Out of all of that, I have come to the conclusion that NY WILL NOT match the offer by the spurs.

It all makes perfect sense


:lol :lol :lol

I hope you're right.

[Obstructed_View]

It all makes perfect sense
That's where Isiah usually starts to diverge.

[Spurologist]

That's where Isiah usually starts to diverge.

:lmao Isiah's motto in full effect

[bigdog]

i highly doubt isiah will match the offer,because the original offer that the Knicks made to Butler was only worth $900,000. so i bet when Isiah heard the spurs offered him a $7 million dollar offer sheet, he flipped out. they are already gonna be paying ALOT of money next year so the knicks prolly wont sign him.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

i highly doubt isiah will match the offer,because the original offer that the Knicks made to Butler was only worth $900,000. so i bet when Isiah heard the spurs offered him a $7 million dollar offer sheet, he flipped out. they are already gonna be paying ALOT of money next year so the knicks prolly wont sign him.
I think that was the qualifying offer they were required to make in order to keep the right to match offers. It's not necessarily indicative of how much they're willing to pay.

[Sandman52]

Ahh, beat me to it, Winnipeg. I guess I should just start reading the last page of a thread first. A lot easier to comment on the "current topic/direction" of the thread.

[ShoogarBear]

How bout that Ricky Bobby?

[ObiwanGinobili]

i highly doubt isiah will match the offer,because the original offer that the Knicks made to Butler was only worth $900,000. so i bet when Isiah heard the spurs offered him a $7 million dollar offer sheet, he flipped out. they are already gonna be paying ALOT of money next year so the knicks prolly wont sign him.


see - that makes sense, to most logically thinking folk.

but this is Isaiah Thomas we are talkign about here. turn the above statement upside down and backwards, then close 1 eye. And you will be almost 1/2 way to seeign things the way he does.

[El_Mago]

The more and more I think about this off-season the more it has grown on me.

I'm fine with the addition of Elson because I know he can run the floor very well, and beat most big men down the floor. He can shoot a jump shot, and won't back down from people down low.....basically, he's serviceable.

I like the additions of Bonner and Williams not just because they are both on the last years of their contract, but because they offer versatility. Bonner can of course shoot the three for a big man, which enables the Spurs to spread the floor and cause their own matchup problems. Williams is a solid vet, who can do the dirty work and play defense.

These guys are basically role players that are needed on championship teams. We have two stars in Ginobili and Parker, and Hall of Famer in Duncan....and these guys mentioned above all bring different things to the table, and make the team whole.

Now, enter Jackie Butler.

Right now, a lot of people are down on the Spurs front office. But, 2 years or 3 years from now, we might look back and see this as a memorable off-season. We might be calling Jackie Butler the best free agent signing ever....based on price and how we got him.

I know, when you first heard the name Jackie Butler.....the first thing that popped into many people's head was, "Who?"

That was the same reaction people in Indiana had when they recieved a young kid by the name of Jermaine O'Neal via trade. Or perhaps the same people in Detriot were saying that too, when they traded their Star in Grant Hill and got a young man by the name of Ben Wallace.

To a much lesser extent....the name DeSagana Diop comes to my mind, Joel Pryzbilla, etc.....

Some teams have plucked away All-Stars from teams and some have plucked away serviceable big men.....

Butler has all the potential to be in the category of Wallace and O'Neal.....

He's a very young kid, has great hands down low, has offensive skills, can rebound, hustles, and appears to want to win and has a great work ethic.....he has the physical tools and hopefully the desire to become a star....the thing in his corner that the other players that I mentioned above didn't have before they blew up.....was a Hall of Famer next to them.....which must have appealed to Butler and can only make him that much better.

So, I know things right now look sad, but let the picture play out, and the end result is what matters.

[Quadzilla99]

Bonner is going to have a hard time finding time though because he can't guard anybody or rebound. If we get Butler that might be an improvement though depending on if he can keep his weight under control.

[objective]

imo people on various Spurs forums are wildly over-rating and over-hyping Jackie Butler. They are going on even less than what the saw of Javtokas.

[exstatic]

Bonner is going to have a hard time finding time though because he can't guard anybody or rebound. If we get Butler that might be an improvement though depending on if he can keep his weight under control.
Dude...do you HAVE to mention his weight in every post about Butler? It's becoming a forum given that you think he's fat. Give it a rest.

[Quadzilla99]

imo people on various Spurs forums are wildly over-rating and over-hyping Jackie Butler. They are going on even less than what the saw of Javtokas.That's true he only played limited minutes in NY and didn't play much his rookie year. We didn't have Kareem or Wilt here before though.

[El_Mago]

They are going on even less than what the saw of Javtokas.

Thats funny, Butler playing against the Spurs, is more game action in itself than what this entire board has seen in Javtokas.

[Quadzilla99]

Dude...do you HAVE to mention his weight in every post about Butler? It's becoming a forum given that you think he's fat. Give it a rest.
I never said he was fat. Find the post where I did. Or do you just like to make things up and pretend people said them? I never said fat just a little overweight and do you have to go on a rambling tangent every time I do? People mention Mahinmi is skinny everytime he is brought up and no one blows up. It's a weird double standard.

[objective]

Thats funny, Butler playing against the Spurs, is more game action in itself than what this entire board has seen in Javtokas.

lol

He played, but people don't remember it. They weren't paying astute attention during a 20 point blowout. I do because I have a game taped and re-watched it and did nothing but concentrate on Butler.

Javtokas games are still available streaming online for people to re-visit.

[exstatic]

I never said he was fat. Find the post where I did. Or do you just like to make things up and pretend people said them? I never said fat just a little overweight and do you have to go on a rambling tangent every time I do? People mention Mahinmi is skinny everytime he is brought up and no one blows up. It's a weird double standard.

He's definitely overweight the 260 lbs (If that's his weight) is more flab than muscle.

PWN3D (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1089515&postcount=25)

[Quadzilla99]

PWN3D (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1089515&postcount=25)OK I admit I was wrong in that post he's about 10-20 lbs overweight not fat. That was in the heat of an argument. Be sure to bring that up every time even though I admitted I was wrong.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

imo people on various Spurs forums are wildly over-rating and over-hyping Jackie Butler. They are going on even less than what the saw of Javtokas.
Yeah, but what Butler did was in the NBA with NBA level competition not against random euroleague scrubs.

[Quadzilla99]

I like Butler never said I didn't even in that link Exstatic "owned" me on I said it.

[exstatic]

OK I admit I was wrong in that post he's about 10-20 lbs overweight not fat. That was in the heat of an argument. Be sure to bring that up every time even though I admitted I was wrong.
Dude, I'm just fuckin' with ya. I thought it was funny, though, that every time that Butler is mentioned, you bring up his weight. And while I acknowledge that you have NOW admitted it, you were denying it like 2 posts ago.

Peace out, playa.
:fro

[Quadzilla99]

Dude, I'm just fuckin' with ya. I thought it was funny, though, that every time that Butler is mentioned, you bring up his weight. And while I acknowledge that you have NOW admitted it, you were denying it like 2 posts ago.

Peace out, playa.
:fro
No prob.

[objective]

Yeah, but what Butler did was in the NBA with NBA level competition not against random euroleague scrubs.

manu did well against 'random euroleague scrubs'. Too bad we signed Manu when we could have had Jon Barry. He was proven against NBA talent, and though a bench player often was a coach's favorite and would play a lot of 4th quarters.

[exstatic]

manu did well against 'random euroleague scrubs'. Too bad we signed Manu when we could have had Jon Barry. He was proven against NBA talent, and though a bench player often was a coach's favorite and would play a lot of 4th quarters.
Manu signed for the LLE to prove himself before he got paid. What people don't realize is that the LLE is MORE than late first round picks make. When Manu signed for the LLE ($1.4M in 2002) he was making about double Parker's salary. If that isn't enough for you to come to the NBA, then fuck off, and stay in Europe. SA isn't asking them to lock in long term at that rate, just play 2 years to show what they can do, and THEN they can ask for money.

For every Manu, you have a Jasickevicius and a Masijauskaus that won't cut the mustard. Only a fool buys a big in a poke.

[objective]

SA isn't asking them to lock in long term at that rate, just play 2 years to show what they can do, and THEN they can ask for money.

so did they pay Oberto the LLE?

Oh snap, they paid him more. Ooops.

And where's the documentation the Spurs offered Javtokas the LLE?

They aren't offering it to anyone else.

And did or did not Manu play against 'random euroleague scrubs'? This comment is in direct relation to people not remembering anything about Butler in the regular season in mostly blowouts compared to seeing Javtokas highlights playing in the Euroleague or in the LKL online streaming where in the finals he played against another euroleague team.

Unrelated to salary and the LLE and such.

[Quadzilla99]

Oberto's stupid in hindsight contract ($7.5 million/3yrs) certainly didn't help any in the negotiations with Jav/Scola either.

[whottt]

It wasn't just Oberto's contract that was the barometer...was Oberto as well.

2 years ago in the ULEB Cup playoffs Oberto pretty much dominated Javtokas. Oberto's team lost but it wasn't because Javtokas went off on Oberto or shut him down or anything...Oberto missed about 15 FT's.

And both Oberto and Javtokas looked to have more NBA ready games than Scola IMO...and Oberto matched up pretty well with NBA guys in International play.

Oberto was the barometer, more than just contractually...and based on his performance, I can see why the Spurs are just a tad nervous. True, S&J might perform better than Oberto at NBA level...then again, they might not. There's nothing based on Euroleague play to gurantee they will.


I honestly can't say I blame the Spurs for not wanting to give these unproven guys multi million dollar deals...and I don't see any NBA teams lining up to trade for their rights to give them those deals either.

These guys basically want more starting jack than the #1 pick in the draft. Not good business, and there's no gurantee either of these guys get us closer to a title than Rasho and Nazr.

For once...I kind of agree with the Spurs tightfistedness...Butler and Elson are more NBA proven than Jav or Scola.

[exstatic]

Oberto was NOT a draft pick. He was a FA, and HE had the negotiating leverage. Apples and oranges. Second round picks take what they are offered or they fuck off and play in Europe.

[Quadzilla99]

Oberto was NOT a draft pick. He was a FA, and HE had the negotiating leverage. Apples and oranges. Second round picks take what they are offered or they fuck off and play in Europe.I'm just saying their agents probably referred to it during negotiations. Whether they were right to is a different question.

[objective]

and based on his performance, I can see why the Spurs are just a tad nervous.

I don't know how much Oberto's play factored into Javtokas offers.

For one thing Oberto was already known to be an undersized center while Javtokas has legit size. Oberto wasn't a shotblocker overseas coming in, he just continued that here. Javtokas is. Oberto was known more as a savvy player who made nice passes and was a 'crafty' type like you would expect from Argentina. He continued that here when he played.

They knew Oberto would be 30 years old coming in. Combined that with his lack of size and his lack of hops that were well documented before his 1st NBA game I don't think his play was that big of a surprise here.

If they were the same kind of player, that I could believe as a factor. But as far as centers go they were pretty different.

[whottt]

Oberto was a better Euroleague Center than Javtokas...Period.

I agree that Javtokas has NBA athleticism...but that's still not justification to go give the guy a multimillion dollar deal right out of the shoot.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I see the same thing. I don't know why our "instant gratification" buddies here have such a huge problem with this off season. There was nothing to go after this year, and Scola and Javtokas are not ready to contribute for the amount of money they would cost.

The 'instant gratification' folks are the ones who are aware of the fact Tim Duncan isn't getting any older and won't be around forever.

Some of you speak and defend the front office like we've still got ten more years of Tim, Tony, and Manu all in their prime.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

so did they pay Oberto the LLE?

Oh snap, they paid him more. Ooops.

He was a free agent and had more than one team bidding for him, so his market price was higher.

Oh snap, that's what happens when you're a FA. Oooops.

For someone with the user name of 'objective' you sure seem to have your panties in a bunch over Javtokas.

[exstatic]

Some of you speak and defend the front office like we've still got ten more years of Tim, Tony, and Manu all in their prime.

We've had four years of the Musketeers already, and have four more years of all of them under contract. Shaq and Kobe were together 8 years and got 3 rings. Our trio has two already, halfway through their run together. I like our chances, and frankly, if it's over in 2010, I like the front office not "Knicking" themselves with shitty contracts if they have to rebuild. Your mileage may vary. There wasn't much out there, and frankly, any team with Tim and two other All Stars can win it any year.[/common sense]

[Mr. Body]

I see the same thing. I don't know why our "instant gratification" buddies here have such a huge problem with this off season. There was nothing to go after this year, and Scola and Javtokas are not ready to contribute for the amount of money they would cost.

And what was Javtokas costing? Nothing shows that he was asking for more than Elson's offer, if that.

Javtokas has all the tools to be a good defensive center in the NBA. The comparisons to Oberto's production are a bit far-fetched, since Oberto simply lacks the athleticism to be very productive in the league. Oberto's contract hurt Javtokas badly, not because Oberto didn't do anything, but because it was simply there as dead weight. Without it, they could take a chance on him. Not a bad chance, at that.

[objective]

He was a free agent and had more than one team bidding for him,

Snap, they BOTH had more than one team bidding for them. Simple facts are both had offers to consider that they were eligible to take.

CASE CLOSED

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Snap, they BOTH had more than one team bidding for them. Simple facts are both had offers to consider that they were eligible to take.

CASE CLOSED

We are talking about more than one NBA team courting Oberto.

I'm not talking about some Euro team that most of the world could give two shits about offering him money, especially when all the taxes over there take about 40% of his pay out of his wallet before he has a chance to spend it.

The alpha dogs always want to be in the NBA, and right now it looks like that's not a high motivation for Jav, which is all the more disappointing considering what the Spurs franchise did for him medically after he got in his dumbass motorcycle accident.

[Mr. Body]

Agg-- stop putting motivations in the head of Javtokas. By all appearances he wanted to play for the Spurs this year.

And Memphis was bidding for Oberto last year, too.

[objective]

We are talking about more than one NBA team courting Oberto.

I'm not talking about some Euro team that most of the world could give two shits about offering him money, especially when all the taxes over there take about 40% of his pay out of his wallet before he has a chance to spend it.

so you admit that both Oberto and Javtokas had million+ offers from various teams that would increase their value by teams bidding against each other?

btw, it's largely accepted that there's odd tax issues overseas, eg when a team signs a player for x amount it also pays the taxes on that amount. So when a team announces a guy at 1 million it's really 1.7 or whatever but they report the takehome.

That's why some people think the PAO offer isn't really 2 million US but closer to 3 million.

There's a thread on a euro forum talking about team's salary budgets and PAO is a team that is discussed with an actual budget of 17 million euros including taxes and bonuses


all the more disappointing considering what the Spurs franchise did for him medically after he got in his dumbass motorcycle accident.

that is an arguement which objectively makes sense and is reasonable. He wouldn't be playing if not for the Spurs. Maybe the Spurs expected a thank-you discount and that's why they offered him less than he and his agent expected, as opposed to the market value.

[Mr. Body]

that is an arguement which objectively makes sense and is reasonable. He wouldn't be playing if not for the Spurs. Maybe the Spurs expected a thank-you discount and that's why they offered him less than he and his agent expected, as opposed to the market value.

I think this is highly likely.

[ChumpDumper]

Of course they offerred him the LLE and expected him to take it. Ultimately if he's as good as everyone thinks he is he's in for an enormous pay raise in two seasons.

The money he got in Greece is as much as he's ever going to get over there.

At the same time, Rudoy likely thought he was in a better bargaining position since the Spurs currently had no center.

[timvp]

If Javtokas wants to come to the NBA, he needs to take the LLE and STFU. If I'm the Spurs, that's my first and last offer. I can even understand Scola asking for more because of his huge buyout, but Javtokas has no excuse to not take the LLE.

There should be no negotiations. Especially considering that the LLE is more than most first round picks make.

[Mr. Body]

The market doesn't bear that out anymore. If the Spurs keep offering guys the LLE, they'll never get overseas talent. Macijauskas, Anthony Parker, Garbajosa, and Oberto have blown that out of the water.

[furry_spurry]

If Javtokas wants to come to the NBA, he needs to take the LLE and STFU. If I'm the Spurs, that's my first and last offer. I can even understand Scola asking for more because of his huge buyout, but Javtokas has no excuse to not take the LLE.

There should be no negotiations. Especially considering that the LLE is more than most first round picks make.
But what if the Spurs didn't offer him that?

[ChumpDumper]

The only other thing they could have offerred at that time is the minimum -- and even I don't think they are that cheap.

[timvp]

The market doesn't bear that out anymore. If the Spurs keep offering guys the LLE, they'll never get overseas talent. Macijauskas, Anthony Parker, Garbajosa, and Oberto have blown that out of the water.

None of those guys had their rights held by an NBA team when they signed. There is a HUGE difference. It'd be dumb business to start a bidding war with Euro teams. If the player wants to come to the NBA, they come. If not, let them rot in Europe.

If Javtokas thought he was going to succeed in the NBA, he'd take whatever he could get because he'd know that after the two seasons, he'd be able to cash in. Any center who can walk and chew gum gets paid 10 times more than what he could get in Europe. That Javtokas wanted his millions up front lets me know what he thinks of his own ability.

It's like earlier this summer when he said that he didn't know if he wanted to come to the Spurs because he didn't see how he'd get minutes. That's not the type of player I want on this team.

[furry_spurry]

The only other thing they could have offerred at that time is the minimum -- and even I don't think they are that cheap.
It's like with Scola- people claimed he wanted the whole MLE and that it was outrageous and then it came out that all he wanted was the $3M/year that Elson is getting. I have found no indication that Javtokas was offered and turned down the LLE. When you find it, let me know.

[Mr. Body]

None of those guys had their rights held by an NBA team when they signed. There is a HUGE difference. It'd be dumb business to start a bidding war with Euro teams. If the player wants to come to the NBA, they come. If not, let them rot in Europe.

You're a brilliant guy when it comes to sour grapes.

Rationalizations aside about Javtokas, and Javtokas aside, the Spurs are recognizing that the market is getting expensive and simply don't want to play. They lowballed Javtokas, perhaps out of the same spirit of bitterness you evince, and will probably pay for it a little because they weren't willing to give him another $500K-$1M a year.

In the future, they'll face the same problems with attracting talent. Most likely they'll let the Torontos of the world outbid them in open markets, and watch their late 2nd rounders return home, bewildered that they aren't being offered market value. The Spurs are chintzy. This is why they drafted Mahinmi in the first round, to lock him into a very low rate. In the future, we should expect to pull more long-term internationals with late firsts.

All this is moot, since we're not even sure they showed him the LLE.

[ChumpDumper]

Since the LLE is what they offerred Manu (whom I believe had a buyout), I have no reason to believe the Spurs offered Javtokas $395,000 instead. If you find that, let me knw.

[furry_spurry]

Since the LLE is what they offerred Manu (whom I believe had a buyout), I have no reason to believe the Spurs offered Javtokas $395,000 instead. If you find that, let me knw.
Manu got the LLE because that is ALL the Spurs had that summer.

[ChumpDumper]

This is why they drafted Mahinmi in the first round, to lock him into a very low rate.:lmao

You wanted them to trade up for a guy no one even heard of?

[ChumpDumper]

Manu got the LLE because that is ALL the Spurs had that summer.Untrue.

[Mr. Body]

:lmao

You wanted them to trade up for a guy no one even heard of?

Huh? No.

I said they got him in the late first to lock him into a very cheap rate. Did you get hit on the head or something?

[ChumpDumper]

Huh? No.

I said they got him in the late first to lock him into a very cheap rate. Did you get hit on the head or something?:lmao again!

Why does any team take a first rounder?

Unlbelievable!

[timvp]

Mahinmi was drafted in the first round because that first round promise was the only way he'd stay in the draft. Without that promise, he was going back to France or perhaps Gonzaga.

Hasn't someone already explained this to you?

[Mr. Body]

Mahinmi was drafted in the first round because that first round promise was the only way he'd stay in the draft. Without that promise, he was going back to France or perhaps Gonzaga.

Hasn't someone already explained this to you?

True, but the attraction was also there to lock him into a low rate. Draft him in the second round and his cost could very well be exorbitant (to the Spurs) by the time he comes over. I'm sure you must have thought there was some value to the Spurs to take him there. You're pretty smart.

[Mr. Body]

:lmao again!

Why does any team take a first rounder?

Unlbelievable!

What?! You're talking gibberish.

They wanted him. What are you saying?

[timvp]

Drafting him in the second round wasn't an option.

[ChumpDumper]

What?! You're talking gibberish.

They wanted him. What are you saying?I'm saying they wanted him.

And taking him in the first round was the ONLY way to get him.

There was no choice.

[Mr. Body]

Drafting him in the second round wasn't an option.

I'm not saying it was. But there's a big risk taking anybody in the late 1st, since it's guaranteed money. They wanted him enough to grab him before anyone caught word of him in later years, but there was also value in getting him cheaply.

The Spurs could easily have done the dick thing and waited until the second round to pick him up (trading for a pick). It's not like Mahinmi could have pulled out in between rounds.

No, the super-cheap rate was highly attractive to them.

[ChumpDumper]

Spurs didn't have a second rounder.

Ian was going to pull out of the draft without a 1st round promise.

Ian wanted the guaranteed money.

[Mr. Body]

This is what I'm saying, Chump. I feel I have to use monosyllabic words with you -- whoops.

The Spurs liked the guaranteed money, too. Because it is extremely inexpensive. That's all I'm saying.

[ChumpDumper]

Just like every other team that ever gave out a scale contract.

Whoopie.

That's two syllables.

This was probably the only chance the Spurs would ever have with Ian so they took it.

Now it's all part of the evil conspiracy.

:rolleyes

[Mr. Body]

Now you get it. Thanks. That was about 20 messages for a simple point.

[Mr. Body]

Drafting him in the second round wasn't an option.

If they acquired a second rounder, sure it was. Teams have reneged on promises before.

That, however, is not my point at all.

[ChumpDumper]

You need to tweak your sarcasm detector.

There was no other way to get Ian that year and likely would not be any way to get him in the future.

None.

[Mr. Body]

Ok. Not disputing. All I'm saying is the late first round rate is extremely nice for the Spurs and that they would have taken him there instead of the second, if they had the choice.

Jesus, this takes forever.

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao

Name me a team that would prefer to pay more for any player if they are given the choice.

[ducks]

sometimes it is and sometimes it is not
first rounders have guarantee contracts
second rounders do not

spurs have traded first round picks because of that fact

[Mr. Body]

:lmao

Name me a team that would prefer to pay more for any player if they are given the choice.

This is hopeless. My last try:

Because letting second rounders develop in Europe has been getting so expensive due to no rules to limit second round contracts and a rising market, acquiring a young developing talent with a late first rounder was very attractive to the Spurs because it locked him into a reduced rate.

This is very simple. :rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

The Spurs didn't have a second rounder and Ian wanted the money he would get from the first round which is more than he thinks he would've gotten had he gone in the second round.

As much as you want it to be, there is no victim in this story.

Ian wanted to be taken in the first round. The Spurs took him in the first round.

Very simple. :rolleyes

[Mr. Body]

You must have flunked kindergarten. I didn't say there was a victim to this story. I said it worked for the Spurs just as much as it did Mahinmi, because of the cost.

Read this again:


Because letting second rounders develop in Europe has been getting so expensive due to no rules to limit second round contracts and a rising market, acquiring a young developing talent with a late first rounder was very attractive to the Spurs because it locked him into a reduced rate.

It worked for both parties, marked a shift in tactics for the Spurs, and might be the direction they go in the future. I would not expect them to use 2nd rounders on developing Europeans ever again.

Did you eat a brain tumor for breakfast?

[MannyIsGod]

This is hopeless. My last try:

Because letting second rounders develop in Europe has been getting so expensive due to no rules to limit second round contracts and a rising market, acquiring a young developing talent with a late first rounder was very attractive to the Spurs because it locked him into a reduced rate.

This is very simple. :rolleyesMy god man, do you look for situations where you can concot all sorts of weird stories that work only if you ignore the facts? And then you try to turn around and say it is other people who don't understand? You're dense dude.

What Chump is trying to tell you is the ONLY motivation for picking Ian in first was because thats what he wanted. You realize that picking a player in the first as opposed to the 2nd because you want to pay them less is an absolutely stupid idea considering that you never have to sign or pay a 2nd rounder unless he turns into something but you ALWAYS have to pay a 1st rounder becaue they are guarnteed a contract?

You're logic is so off base here it is flat out amazing.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Ok. Not disputing. All I'm saying is the late first round rate is extremely nice for the Spurs and that they would have taken him there instead of the second, if they had the choice.

Jesus, this takes forever.

:lol It wouldn't if you weren't such a fucking idiot. What team wants to pay more for a player?


Because letting second rounders develop in Europe has been getting so expensive due to no rules to limit second round contracts and a rising market, acquiring a young developing talent with a late first rounder was very attractive to the Spurs because it locked him into a reduced rate.

This is very simple.

Show me all these second rounders that are getting so "expensive."

I want to see names and salaries.

[Mr. Body]

Manny... read what I'm saying. There was clear value for picking Mahinmi there, apart from it being the only place they could get him.

[Mr. Body]

:lol It wouldn't if you weren't such a fucking idiot. What team wants to pay more for a player?

No one. Did I say this anywhere?


Show me all these second rounders that are getting so "expensive."

I want to see names and salaries.

1) Scola.
2) Javtokas.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Read what he is saying - drafting Ian in the first round was the only way to get him. If they hadn't he would have withdrawn from the draft and gone to Gonzaga

Give me your address so I can send over a crobar so you can pry your head out of your ass on this one.

[Mr. Body]

It worked for both parties, marked a shift in tactics for the Spurs, and might be the direction they go in the future. I would not expect them to use 2nd rounders on developing Europeans ever again.

This is the final statement.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

1) Scola.
2) Javtokas.

:lmao You made it out like teams across the league were ponying up 10 mil a year for second rounders. That's it? That's your proof?

You're trying to hold up Scola with a bad contract as proof? And Javtokas and his 'cost' weren't even an issue when they drafted Ian.

Just admit you're wrong and find a new thread to dumb down.

[MannyIsGod]

So you think the Spurs will never draft a Euro with a 2nd rounder again? Instead, they'll pay them all 1st round money even though many may never pan out. And this will all be to save money?

Mr. Body I hope you don't balance your own checkbook.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

This is the final statement.

And you're still wrong.

[ChumpDumper]

It worked for both parties, marked a shift in tactics for the Spurs, and might be the direction they go in the future. I would not expect them to use 2nd rounders on developing Europeans ever again.Broken record time - the Spurs didn't have a first rounder and it was the ONLY way they were ever going to have a shot at Ian. They'll use second rounders for Euros in the future. Why not? At worst, they keep a potentially good player out of the hands of their competition. Why use it on some shitty Division III player who has no NBA potential?
Did you eat a brain tumor for breakfast?That is without a doubt the lamest insult ever hurled at me across the internets.

[MannyIsGod]

Did you eat a brain tumor for breakfast?

:lmao

[Mr. Body]

Read what he is saying - drafting Ian in the first round was the only way to get him. If they hadn't he would have withdrawn from the draft and gone to Gonzaga

Give me your address so I can send over a crobar so you can pry your head out of your ass on this one.

You keep pulling me back in! This is really getting hilarious.

I am not disputing Mahinmi was in the draft with a promise to get picked there. Teams have overturned such promises in the past and drafted guys in the 2nd they promised to get in the 1st. Spurs could've pulled a 2nd somewhere, whatever. That's not the point.

I was talking about future contracts and future players. You seem to have missed this entirely.

The point is that 2nd rounders on developing talent is getting way too expensive, because the market is rather high. The low yearly rates for the 29th and 30th picks the Spurs usually have is attractive to them, when they know they have a sure thing. There were lots of questions about why the Spurs took Mahinmi there when he easily would have been available in the 2nd. This is the reason why. Why, as a PARADIGM, this approach works very well.

IF they could have drafted him in the 2nd, PROBABLY in two or three years, he'd be expecting $3M or similar. THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL. That's why, even if they could have gotten him in the 2nd, they wouldn't. And the reason why they won't pull developing talent in the 2nd again- as I see it.

[Mr. Body]

That is without a doubt the lamest insult ever hurled at me across the internets.

I'm surprised you didn't recognize it from Heathers. Good movie.

[Mr. Body]

So you think the Spurs will never draft a Euro with a 2nd rounder again? Instead, they'll pay them all 1st round money even though many may never pan out. And this will all be to save money?

Yes. If, and only if, they know he's close to a sure thing, as Mahinmi is.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm surprised you didn't recognize it from Heathers. Good movie.I too am surprised. I must have forgotten such a lame line from an otherwise good movie.

[MannyIsGod]

Your paradigm is one of financial stupidity. Seriously, who on earth would rather give each guy they were drafting guarnteed money when their talent didn't warrant it simply at the off chance they might blow up and cost more? It is insanely retarded.

So to save a million on the 1 out of 5 or so Euros (pulling numbers out of my ass here) that make it, you're willing to pay a million to each for 3 years.

Do you really not see the stupidity in your idea?

[Mr. Body]

I too am surprised. I must have forgotten such a lame line from an otherwise good movie.

Well, I meant it as a subtext that we're all getting catty. :spin

[MannyIsGod]

Yes. If, and only if, they know he's close to a sure thing, as Mahinmi is.Mahinmi is far from a sure thing. And most of the players we draft in Europe ar far from sure things. In fact, the Spurs have no sure things at the moment that they have drafted.

[ChumpDumper]

Thank God we didn't have to give Beno the full MLE....

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The point is that 2nd rounders on developing talent is getting way too expensive, because the market is rather high. The low yearly rates for the 29th and 30th picks the Spurs usually have is attractive to them, when they know they have a sure thing.

Where is it getting too expensive? Scola is too pricey because of his dumbass contract buyout he agreed to.

Javtokas? His agent overplayed his hand with Rasho and Nazr gone, and the LLE offer that he got was more than fair.



There were lots of questions about why the Spurs took Mahinmi there when he easily would have been available in the 2nd. This is the reason why. Why, as a PARADIGM, this approach works very well.

There are no questions as to why the Spurs took Ian in the first. Everyone knows, except you, apparently, that the only reason he stayed in the draft was because the Spurs promised to pick him in the first round.

This isn't a hard fact to grasp unless you got dropped on your head 20 times as a child.

[MannyIsGod]

Thank God we didn't have to give Beno the full MLE....Well, if the Spurs hadn't taken him in the first round they'd probably be forced to. He's a sure thing.

[Mr. Body]

Your paradigm is one of financial stupidity. Seriously, who on earth would rather give each guy they were drafting guarnteed money when their talent didn't warrant it simply at the off chance they might blow up and cost more? It is insanely retarded.

So to save a million on the 1 out of 5 or so Euros (pulling numbers out of my ass here) that make it, you're willing to pay a million to each for 3 years.

Do you really not see the stupidity in your idea?

It only works if the player is a certainty - or nearly. Drafting in the late 1st is a huge risk as it is. They would have only taken Mahinmi if the risk of him busting was low. It was an interesting to take him there, and I wonder if it'll work in the future. I'm going to far to say they'll never take a foreign prospect in the 2nd, but they certainly know the dangers now. The philosophy used to be wait until the 2nd comes around and nab him for free, but now the risk on that end is fairly high. If another unknown Mahinmi-type comes around and they have both 1st and 2nd rounders, I would not be stunned to see them gank him with the 1st.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Well, if the Spurs hadn't taken him in the first round they'd probably be forced to. He's a sure thing.

:lmao

Mr. Body = Spurstalk punching bag.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'm going to far to say they'll never take a foreign prospect in the 2nd

What do you want to bet on this one? Put your money where your mouth is.

[strangeweather]

I think everyone's right that this has nothing to do with what happened when they drafted Ian last year, but there actually is a valid point here. Signing our overseas second round picks has become more drenched in drama recently.

First round picks (1) have a locked-in salary, and an affordable cost for several years (2) don't require an exception to sign, which matters now that we're consistently over the cap.

Second rounders in general are dirt cheap, because they're fighting to make the league. But if you draft someone in the second round and then leave them overseas until they become stars in their prime, its only going to get harder to convince them to come over here for the LLE and not suck up at least a chunk of your MLE.

Along with the improved NBA-wide scouting of Europe, this is only going to make it harder to find and bring over second round Euro-steals in the future.

[Mr. Body]

Scola is going to expect at least $2.5M when his contract expires. Javtokas is worth at least that, according to market. Don't you think, if they had the chance, they would have gone back and drafted them with late 1st rounders instead?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

its only going to get harder to convince them to come over here for the LLE and not suck up at least a chunk of your MLE.

The only examples anyone can come up with are Scola, who isn't even legit because his contract buyout is the complication in those negotations, and Javtokas, whose agent overplayed his hand with Rasho and Nazr gone.

This whole 'the world is ending for the Spurs trying to sign their second rounders' shit is a bit premature, to say the least.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Scola is going to expect at least $2.5M when his contract expires.

What he expects and what he gets are two different things.


Javtokas is worth at least that, according to market.

Apparently not, the Spurs didn't think he was worth the LLE (1.9).

[ChumpDumper]

Scola is going to expect at least $2.5M when his contract expires. Javtokas is worth at least that, according to market. Don't you think, if they had the chance, they would have gone back and drafted them with late 1st rounders instead?If those guys were worth a first round pick in their draft years, they wouldn't have fallen to the very end of the second round.

[Mr. Body]

I think everyone's right that this has nothing to do with what happened when they drafted Ian last year, but there actually is a valid point here. Signing our overseas second round picks has become more drenched in drama recently.

First round picks (1) have a locked-in salary, and an affordable cost for several years (2) don't require an exception to sign, which matters now that we're consistently over the cap.

Second rounders in general are dirt cheap, because they're fighting to make the league. But if you draft someone in the second round and then leave them overseas until they become stars in their prime, its only going to get harder to convince them to come over here for the LLE and not suck up at least a chunk of your MLE.

Along with the improved NBA-wide scouting of Europe, this is only going to make it harder to find and bring over second round Euro-steals in the future.

Thanks. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Things simply have changed and a new option for drafting potential may have entered. Characteristically, I went too far in saying the team would NEVER use a 2nd on developing talent, but they'd definitely think twice now. Manu might have been the only steal we ever got for cheap.

Maybe I wasn't explaining the position very well, but


But if you draft someone in the second round and then leave them overseas until they become stars in their prime, its only going to get harder to convince them to come over here for the LLE and not suck up at least a chunk of your MLE.

is just about right.

[ChumpDumper]

The only second round Euro I remember getting more than the LLE in this CBA era is Magic Lamp. What a worthwhile decision that was.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

is just about right.

An Argentine with a ridiculous buyout and a motorcycle accident victim whose agent tried to play hardball once Rasho and Nazr were gone does not a crisis make.

[Mr. Body]

If those guys were worth a first round pick in their draft years, they wouldn't have fallen to the very end of the second round.

No, I mean at that point in their careers, they were still Mahinmi-types, undeveloped. People would have frowned at the picks, but if they had a time machine, the Spurs would have done it. They would have locked two great players into very small contracts. Drafting them with late 2nd rounders, which we exulted as draft day coups for years, turned out to not have worked out at all.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

turned out to not have worked out at all.

Call me when either show up in the league and start posting double doubles every night.

Otherwise you're just another whiny Euro coattail rider.

[ChumpDumper]

No, I mean at that point in their careers, they were still Mahinmi-types, undeveloped. People would have frowned at the picks, but if they had a time machine, the Spurs would have done it.Let's leave science fiction out of this, shall we? We're getting into a whole weird area here.

[strangeweather]

The only examples anyone can come up with are Scola, who isn't even legit because his contract buyout is the complication in those negotations, and Javtokas, whose agent overplayed his hand with Rasho and Nazr gone.
Scola can make significantly more than the LLE by signing an extension with Tau. Even if he didn't have a buyout, do you think he comes over here for that?


This whole 'the world is ending for the Spurs trying to sign their second rounders' shit is a bit premature, to say the least.
The sky isn't falling. The world is not ending. We don't have to abandon any hope of ever getting a Euro in the second round.

But as salaries continue to climb in Europe, I think you would have to be a bit oblivious to think that top Europeans earning multi-millions in Italy or Spain are always going to be happy to give up a bunch of salary in their prime earning years for the honor of playing in the NBA.

[MannyIsGod]

The Spurs hate using 1st roound picks unless they're getting something good, and now they're going to go back in time and use them on 2 guys that they could have had here this year but choose not to bring in?

Dude, I don't think you understand the reason the Spurs 2nd round picks are overseas:

Because the Spurs want them to be.

[Mr. Body]

Let's leave science fiction out of this, shall we? We're getting into a whole weird area here.

Fine. I'm saying what looked to be crafty really caused some problems in the end and weren't the 'steals' they seemed on the face of it. It'll work out great when they trade Scola's rights, translating a late 2nd into something much better, but with an expensive market, the Spurs should expect to have to pay young developing talent drafted in the 2nd, if they come around, a lot of money.

[MannyIsGod]

Scola can make significantly more than the LLE by signing an extension with Tau. Even if he didn't have a buyout, do you think he comes over here for that?


If he wants to play in the NBA. If not, he makes more in Europe.

[MannyIsGod]

The root of the problem here is that Mr. Body is failing to realize the reason the Spurs are not bringing these players over isn't because they are too expensive.

[ChumpDumper]

For the next CBA there could either be a cap on 1st contracts for second rounders or the second round will be done away with altogether, depending on which side uses the issue as a bargaining chip.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Scola can make significantly more than the LLE by signing an extension with Tau. Even if he didn't have a buyout, do you think he comes over here for that?

Good, let him stay over there, because he obviously isn't worth it. Then 30 years from now he can tell all his grandkids about how he could have played with three-time world champs for another world championship, but he was too greedy to do it.


But as salaries continue to climb in Europe, I think you would have to be a bit oblivious to think that top Europeans earning multi-millions in Italy or Spain are always going to be happy to give up a bunch of salary in their prime earning years for the honor of playing in the NBA.

Yeah, Manu sure gave up a lot by coming and playing for the LLE those first two years. I'm sure the 10 million a year he's making now kills him every day.

Javtokas supposedly signed for 2 million in Europe. After you take out all the taxes over there, he probably made what a shade over a mil? He could have come here and had no state income tax, and if he proved he was worth it two years from now he could have been signing a contract for ten times what he will ever earn in Europe.

Great fucking call there. I'm with LJ, it doesn't sound like the dude wants to come here and play. So let him rot in Europe, and hopefully Spurs fans will quit bitching about him not coming when he won't step up to the plate.

[Mr. Body]

But as salaries continue to climb in Europe, I think you would have to be a bit oblivious to think that top Europeans earning multi-millions in Italy or Spain are always going to be happy to give up a bunch of salary in their prime earning years for the honor of playing in the NBA.

There is this heart-felt faith many Spurs fans have that players should take very little money to play for the team. And that the FO, by offering less than half market value, will be able to land good players left and right. And that, when those players think twice about it (feeling undervalued, or feeling they can lead just as nice lives playing somewhere else), those fans get pretty vindictive. Vindictive against those players ("what, you don't want to win [those obviously forthcoming] championships?!") and against those who defend them.

But.... *shrugs*

[ChumpDumper]

Fine. I'm saying what looked to be crafty really caused some problems in the end and weren't the 'steals' they seemed on the face of it. It'll work out great when they trade Scola's rights, translating a late 2nd into something much better, but with an expensive market, the Spurs should expect to have to pay young developing talent drafted in the 2nd, if they come around, a lot of money.Unless you prove to me that Corsley Edwards would've been a better choice at #57, this argument doesn't hold alot of water.

Guys like Scola are the best gambles at that draft level for at worst precisely the reason you listed above, and at best you get Manu. All you need is a player that believes in himself enough to pay his dues and smart enough not to have a huge buyout.

[MannyIsGod]

If Scola didn't have that buyout, he'd be over here right now for the LLE.

[Mr. Body]

If Scola didn't have that buyout, he'd be over here right now for the LLE.

He wouldn't have taken the LLE.

[MannyIsGod]

If he didn't have his buyout you don't think he'd have taken the LLE? Um, why?

[strangeweather]

Good, let him stay over there, because he obviously isn't worth it. Then 30 years from now he can tell all his grandkids about how he could have played with three-time world champs for another world championship, but he was too greedy to do it.
I'm thinking he'll be telling his grandkids about the title(s) he won with Argentina before the titles he won with any pro team -- whether it's in Euroleague or here.

He's a star for his country. And by the way, he's also a star in the second-best pro league in the world. That's not so bad.

And yeah, we can say "he can rot over there if he doesn't want to play here." But what it means is that we ended up wasting a pick, which is a shame on our end.


Yeah, Manu sure gave up a lot by coming and playing for the LLE those first two years. I'm sure the 10 million a year he's making now kills him every day.
You think Macijauskas and Oberto are celebrating coming to the NBA? I bet it was a lot more fun in Europe.

[Mr. Body]

Unless you prove to me that Corsley Edwards would've been a better choice at #57, this argument doesn't hold alot of water.

Guys like Scola are the best gambles at that draft level for at worst precisely the reason you listed above, and at best you get Manu. All you need is a player that believes in himself enough to pay his dues and smart enough not to have a huge buyout.

Not really. Playing in Europe for a better contract, fighting for Euroleague titles and respect, is much more attractive than getting San Antonio pennies. These players are making money to last the rest of their lives in comfort, more often than not. Good luck trying to "find the next Manu" in this market. Manu comes out now? He doesn't take the LLE.

[Mr. Body]

If he didn't have his buyout you don't think he'd have taken the LLE? Um, why?

Garbajosa is getting $4M at Toronto. He can make more at TAU.

[strangeweather]

For the next CBA there could either be a cap on 1st contracts for second rounders or the second round will be done away with altogether, depending on which side uses the issue as a bargaining chip.
This makes total sense to me.

[Mr. Body]

strangeweather, sorry for drawing you into this. The reality of the market clearly has changed. I understand people ferociously defending their team, but I'm sure the FO is recognizing the problems.

[MannyIsGod]

Scola is making more in Europe right now. Why does he want to come to the NBA?
Because he wants to play in the NBA.

I have absolutely zero doubt that if Scola didn't have that buyout, he's here for the LLE. If it was just about making the money he is in Europe, his agent woudln't make such a big deal about the Spurs not signing him.

There are tons of players out there who could play overseas for more money, but overseas is not the NBA.

[Mr. Body]

For the next CBA there could either be a cap on 1st contracts for second rounders or the second round will be done away with altogether, depending on which side uses the issue as a bargaining chip.

I'm big in favor of this.