Jackie Butler: Will The Knicks Match? (3-year, $7M)

[MannyIsGod]

strangeweather, sorry for drawing you into this. The reality of the market clearly has changed. I understand people ferociously defending their team, but I'm sure the FO is recognizing the problems.:lol

The front office isn't dealing with free agents. They're dealing with players to whom they have exclusive rights which is a hell of a tool to gain leverage.

[ChumpDumper]

Not really. Playing in Europe for a better contract, fighting for Euroleague titles and respect, is much more attractive than getting San Antonio pennies. These players are making money to last the rest of their lives in comfort, more often than not. Good luck trying to "find the next Manu" in this market. Manu comes out now? He doesn't take the LLE.Says who? You? Manu has proven twice that money isn't everything with him, so you really can't play that card. I don't think many are like him though -- few are that confident to wait for the payday, they'll just take 10 year deals with huge buyouts.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm big in favor of this.Which one? You should only be in favor of the second option if you're a member of the players association or a potential NBA player.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm big in favor of this.Which one? The two are diametrically oposed.

[Mr. Body]

The league/Player's Assoc. looking into it. There should be a pay scale for 2nd rounders if they're signed.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

There is this heart-felt faith many Spurs fans have that players should take very little money to play for the team.

There is a heart-felt faith some Spurs fans have that any Euro they signed and scores more than 5 points per game in Euro ball is worth 50 million over five years.

There is a heart-felt faith that some Spurs fans have that even though we hold a player's rights and the exclusive right to negotiate with, we should treat them like free agent rock stars and throw gobs of money at them.

But.... *shrugs*

[strangeweather]

strangeweather, sorry for drawing you into this. The reality of the market clearly has changed. I understand people ferociously defending their team, but I'm sure the FO is recognizing the problems.
I wouldn't have stepped in it if I hadn't been willing to take it on. :lol

Also, I don't think defending the team should even be necessary -- the team did what they thought was best, and Javtokas did what he thought was best. So it goes.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Mr. Body, we get it - you think Scola and Javtokas are both worth the max. Obviously the Spurs don't. *shrugs*

[MannyIsGod]

I gotta say, Mr. Body has been all over the map today. Its impressive. Not really.

[waly.mg]

How many BS i must to read

Manu isn´t a Sudamerican, Northamerican, european or Chinesse player

Is an ET, he never was a little worry about the money, because he want to Win

When he was a restricted player, he was in Denver and Phoenix, because if not, the Spurs were to offer him 1 Coke and an Icecream

He listen a few thing from the other Teams, but he want to remain in the Spurs

There wasn´t any problem or troubles and he was a Resctricted Free agent, and 2 millions was not a difference, like TP, who when the Spurs Offered 64 he wanted 66, and someones sayed "2 Millions for 6 years aren´t too much", but TP wanted that 2 more millions becouse if not, he don´t signed, and at this points, TP had 1 year of contract left

So, you can´t say "Lose some Money if you want to play in the NBA", because nobody is going to change his Job for less Money

The REal Fact is:

Javtokas and Scola are slaves of the Spurs Draft Picks, like too many players, because when 1 team selected you, you have only one chance to play in the NBA, but if not you have 30 teams possibles, so is a "Sign for that money if you want to play in the NBA, because if not you must to play in Europe"

In the Land of Freedom, you aren´t free

Probably that things must to be corrected, because somebody selected in 2002, must to have a chance in the 2006 to play, and this thing don´t happen

[infinite styles]

Mr. Body= More Body than Brains

[Obstructed_View]

Javtokas and Scola are slaves of the Spurs Draft Picks, like too many players, because when 1 team selected you, you have only one chance to play in the NBA, but if not you have 30 teams possibles, so is a "Sign for that money if you want to play in the NBA, because if not you must to play in Europe"

In the Land of Freedom, you aren´t free

Probably that things must to be corrected, because somebody selected in 2002, must to have a chance in the 2006 to play, and this thing don´t happen
Javtokas and Scola have agents, sign contracts, and negotiate to be paid millions of dollars to play basketball. The idea that they are anything approaching slaves is perhaps the most fucking retarded thing EVER. Nobody forced Scola to sign a fucking ten year contract. Scola's european agent, the one who started this whole "slave" thing, is a moron and isn't even Scola's representative to the NBA. Jav could have been here and made millions of dollars if he so chose. He didn't. That's life. "Land of freedom" :rolleyes. Whatever happened to the land of personal reponsibility? They can go get a job at fucking Starbucks if they are so fucking mistreated.

[waly.mg]

more BS

The NBA pay millions dollards for players, who only have 7 Foots and only form make fouls

The Teams pays Full MLE for a 8 Points and 6 rebounds center, and want to pay LLE for an "european" 20 Points and 8 rebounds players

The Real fact is a Top European player like Anthony Parker signed a 3 years 12 millions as Free Agent with Toronto, Oberto who´s not an All Eropean team like Scola, Signed a 4 years 3 7.5 Millions contract, Nocioni 3 yrs - 10 millions, Jasikevicius 3 years - 12 millions ¿Why because are Free Agents and they have the choice to select a team, when one team have your rights, you must to sign a LLE Contract Like Manu in 2002

Obviously i´m from Argentina and look at this players

4 Players in the NBA (Manu-Delfino-Oberto-Nocioni) and 1 Drafted player (Scola)

Oberto (FA)Signed a 3 years contract as Free Agent: · Years 7.5 Millions contract
Manu (Drafted): Signed a 2 years 2.1 millions contract (And he pay his buyout)
Nocioni (FA) : Signed a 3 years 10 millions contract
Delfino (Drafted) Signed by Rookies scale for 750.000 1st year contract
Scola (Drafted) Don´t signed yet

The Score is:
Free Agents (Oberto and Chapu) 5.8 Millions 1st year contracts
Drafteds (Delfino and Manu) 1.85 Millions contracts

So, what is better?, to be a Free Agent or to be Drafted

[Slinkyman]

Will the knicks match? hopefully not.

:elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant

[MannyIsGod]

I don't think anyone is saying it is better for a player to be a drafted if they have skills. But this is a business, and not charity.

[K-State Spur]

more BS

The NBA pay millions dollards for players, who only have 7 Foots and only form make fouls

The Teams pays Full MLE for a 8 Points and 6 rebounds center, and want to pay LLE for an "european" 20 Points and 8 rebounds players

The Real fact is a Top European player like Anthony Parker signed a 3 years 12 millions as Free Agent with Toronto, Oberto who´s not an All Eropean team like Scola, Signed a 4 years 3 7.5 Millions contract, Nocioni 3 yrs - 10 millions, Jasikevicius 3 years - 12 millions ¿Why because are Free Agents and they have the choice to select a team, when one team have your rights, you must to sign a LLE Contract Like Manu in 2002

Obviously i´m from Argentina and look at this players

4 Players in the NBA (Manu-Delfino-Oberto-Nocioni) and 1 Drafted player (Scola)

Oberto (FA)Signed a 3 years contract as Free Agent: · Years 7.5 Millions contract
Manu (Drafted): Signed a 2 years 2.1 millions contract (And he pay his buyout)
Nocioni (FA) : Signed a 3 years 10 millions contract
Delfino (Drafted) Signed by Rookies scale for 750.000 1st year contract
Scola (Drafted) Don´t signed yet

The Score is:
Free Agents (Oberto and Chapu) 5.8 Millions 1st year contracts
Drafteds (Delfino and Manu) 1.85 Millions contracts

So, what is better?, to be a Free Agent or to be Drafted

well oberto had to wait until he was 29 to get the privilege of being a free agent, so keep that in mind.

also, if scola had not signed a 10 year deal, he could have sat out a year (on his own free will) and then the spurs would have lost his draft rights.

people who compare that to slavery a) don't know the meaning of the word and b) don't understand the NBA's draft rules.

[exstatic]

There is this heart-felt faith many Spurs fans have that players should take very little money to play for the team. And that the FO, by offering less than half market value, will be able to land good players left and right. And that, when those players think twice about it (feeling undervalued, or feeling they can lead just as nice lives playing somewhere else), those fans get pretty vindictive. Vindictive against those players ("what, you don't want to win [those obviously forthcoming] championships?!") and against those who defend them.

But.... *shrugs*
What's "market value" for a fucking second round pick? I guarantee you that most of them would cream their pants for a LLE contract. The reality is that a player can make more in Europe than an entry level NBA contract, but if he makes it in the NBA, his salary will blow Europe money out of the water. A confident player would take the two year apprenticeship, then cash in.

[ducks]

Anthony Parker fa big differnece
and he got peanuts last time he came over
he was a nba player at one time then got better

[velik_m]

What's "market value" for a fucking second round pick?

For Javtokas obviuosly twice as much as the spurs offered.

[K-State Spur]

just because he wants it doesn't mean that it's market value.

[Brutalis]

When's the last day Knicks can match?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The reality is that a player can make more in Europe than an entry level NBA contract, but if he makes it in the NBA, his salary will blow Europe money out of the water. A confident player would take the two year apprenticeship, then cash in.

Mr. Body should read this over and over until he gets it.

[Mr. Body]

I don't doubt any of it. The problem is those players would make more money playing for another NBA team than the Spurs. That's what's called "market value." If the Spurs think they can draft people in the 2nd round and trap them into taking very low salaries because they have no other NBA options, then they're going to burn a lot of bridges in the long run. The top European teams are going to offer larger contracts, too, meaning more overseas competition. Hope that works out for them.

Queue the "well, we dinnnt wannnt demm anyway!" blubbering.

[exstatic]

It's a poker game, Body, and they (second round picks) don't have the cards. Their options are to knuckle under and take what is offered, or go and play at the kiddie table.


The problem is those players would make more money playing for another NBA team than the Spurs. That's what's called "market value."

You obviously don't understand what "market value" means. Market value means what do most of group X get for their services. For second round picks, I guarantee you that the average is well below the LLE. That's just a fact. Their market IS their drafting team, and no others.

[strangeweather]

It's a poker game, Body, and they (second round picks) don't have the cards. Their options are to knuckle under and take what is offered, or go and play at the kiddie table.
If the kiddie table is offering more guaranteed money, it won't look so bad to a lot of players. The ABA collected some decent players back in the day by making it easier to get paid.

This is even more true for guys looking to come over at 26 or 27 -- even if they get to cash in on a followup contract, how many years will they get to collect at that higher salary, anyway?

[exstatic]

If the kiddie table is offering more guaranteed money, it won't look so bad to a lot of players. The ABA collected some decent players back in the day by making it easier to get paid.

This is even more true for guys looking to come over at 26 or 27 -- even if they get to cash in on a followup contract, how many years will they get to collect at that higher salary, anyway?


Then stay in Europe. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is all of the whining about the system, as it is. Learn the system, and work it, or STFU. It is what it is.

If you come to the NBA though, you have a chance to get to that final table for the big bucks. That's something the "kiddie table" doesn't offer. Rare is the Euro player that makes even $5M a year, middle class wages by NBA standards.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If the Spurs think they can draft people in the 2nd round and trap them into taking very low salaries because they have no other NBA options, then they're going to burn a lot of bridges in the long run.

The Spurs, since the beginning, have never "trapped" their second rounders into low salaries. They have offered a reasonable market value (for having a candid market) contract, with the promise that if the player comes over and proves he's worth it, he'll get paid the second time around.

You've got no problem holding up Scola and Javtokas as examples of the cheapness of the front office, but completely gloss over a guy like Manu who took the LLE (same thing being offered to Jav), paid his dues, then got paid.

Why should it be any different for a Euro paying his dues in the NBA than it is for American players? Everyone knows LeBron is a max player, but he's playing on a rookie deal.

Tony Parker started play for 900K a year, and now he's making way more jack than he ever could have gotten paid in Europe.

Your examples and logic are grossly flawed, Mr. Body. If Javtokas is looking to get paid on the first contract, it tells me he is not confident enough in his abilities to earn a bigger second deal, and is looking to cash in on contract #1.

Not going to happen, hasn't happened for any Euros coming over whose rights are owned by an NBA squad already.

[velik_m]

just because he wants it doesn't mean that it's market value.

He didn't just want that, he got that.


You obviously don't understand what "market value" means. Market value means what do most of group X get for their services. For second round picks, I guarantee you that the average is well below the LLE. That's just a fact. Their market IS their drafting team, and no others.
Funny i thought each player is an individual and has his own asking price. So, tell me what is a market price for athletic C in nba this days?


Then stay in Europe. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is all of the whining about the system, as it is. Learn the system, and work it, or STFU. It is what it is.

If you come to the NBA though, you have a chance to get to that final table for the big bucks. That's something the "kiddie table" doesn't offer. Rare is the Euro player that makes even $5M a year, middle class wages by NBA standards.

I agree, there should be no whining - ultimately it is a player's choice. The concern is however not for the player, it's for the team. If the players from Europe start avoiding draft (especially second round), the spurs will be forced to compete on the open market for them with all the teams not just with some euro teams.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

. If the players from Europe start avoiding draft (especially second round), the spurs will be forced to compete on the open market for them with all the teams not just with some euro teams.

That will never happen because the true competitors want to come to the NBA and play against the best.

[tempest186]

No because at 22 years of age they are automatically eligible for the draft.

[strangeweather]

Then stay in Europe. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is all of the whining about the system, as it is. Learn the system, and work it, or STFU. It is what it is.
Fair enough. As I said earlier, though, it may complicate drafting second rounders down the road. A pick for a guy who never comes here is just as wasted as a pick for a scrub who can't play.


If you come to the NBA though, you have a chance to get to that final table for the big bucks. That's something the "kiddie table" doesn't offer. Rare is the Euro player that makes even $5M a year, middle class wages by NBA standards.
True. But I think Euro wages are growing faster than NBA wages. If the gap keeps gradually shrinking, that's going to be a less important selling point.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

True. But I think Euro wages are growing faster than NBA wages. If the gap keeps gradually shrinking, that's going to be a less important selling point.

Show me all the Euros with contracts like Manu's, Tony's, Gasol's, etc.

Thanks.

[Obstructed_View]

All a guy has to do is sit out a year to free himself from his bondage. Very simple.

[MannyIsGod]

Javaktovas overplayed his hand big time. Either that, or the Spurs just didn't want him that much. I don't think any of that signals anything about Euro dealings.

[strangeweather]

Show me all the Euros with contracts like Manu's, Tony's, Gasol's, etc.

Thanks.
There aren't any. But it wasn't that long ago that there weren't any $5M a year Euros either.

Some people might think that they could keep their bills paid on $5M a year. Surely that will be even more the case when it becomes $6M or $7M.

And for every Manu or Dirk who comes over here and strikes it rich, there's an Oberto or Jasikevicius who was a star in Europe but ends up being a benchwarmer here for less cash. Most of these guys don't know how a jump to the NBA is going to turn out beforehand, so the risk is substantial.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

There aren't any. But it wasn't that long ago that there weren't any $5M a year Euros either.

Some people might think that they could keep their bills paid on $5M a year. Surely that will be even more the case when it becomes $6M or $7M.

And for every Manu or Dirk who comes over here and strikes it rich, there's an Oberto or Jasikevicius who was a star in Europe but ends up being a benchwarmer here for less cash. Most of these guys don't know how a jump to the NBA is going to turn out beforehand, so the risk is substantial.

So what? If they come over and it doesn't work out they can go back to Europe and get paid and be a star again. It all boils down to a player walking the walk and coming over to prove they belong.

It's the same shit that drafted players (even first rounders) have to go through, I don't know why anyone is playing a violin for a Euro in the same situation.

[strangeweather]

So what? If they come over and it doesn't work out they can go back to Europe and get paid and be a star again. It all boils down to a player walking the walk and coming over to prove they belong.

It's the same shit that drafted players (even first rounders) have to go through, I don't know why anyone is playing a violin for a Euro in the same situation.
I'm not playing a violin for anyone -- the NBA has rules and a way of doing business, and players can do things the NBA way or they can play somewhere else. There are certainly a lot more options now than there were 20 years ago.

As I have said repeatedly, my only concern is that this will start complicating the business of finding affordable guys overseas. If they choose not to come over, it's a wasted pick.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

As I have said repeatedly, my only concern is that this will start complicating the business of finding affordable guys overseas. If they choose not to come over, it's a wasted pick.

How is it a wasted pick? They're just as likely to draft a 'bust' here in the US as they are to not have a Euro come over because he doesn't want to play with the big boys.

[strangeweather]

How is it a wasted pick? They're just as likely to draft a 'bust' here in the US as they are to not have a Euro come over because he doesn't want to play with the big boys.
If we draft a scrub who can't play in the NBA, it's also a wasted pick.

It's just part of the draft that some picks end up being wasted, but any pick that doesn't contribute to your team is wasted, right?

I didn't mean we shouldn't draft Euros. We should. But if we end up not bringing them over, in the end it's a waste.

[exstatic]

You're not going to find any American Manus late in the second round. An American picked late in the second round (where the Spurs usually pick) is probably a waste. A Euro is a crap shoot. I don't think that those are the same thing at all.

[strangeweather]

You're not going to find any American Manus late in the second round. An American picked late in the second round (where the Spurs usually pick) is probably a waste. A Euro is a crap shoot. I don't think that those are the same thing at all.
I agree that it still makes more sense for us to take flyers on Euros in that slot unless someone from the US that we like somehow happens to fall to us. And the chance of having Javtokas at some point is still > not having the rights to Sato anymore.

Then again, I don't know how many Euro Manus there are going to be in that slot either anymore -- this year we traded away our pick rather than using it to uncover a new steal.

[waly.mg]

Then again, I don't know how many Euro Manus there are going to be in that slot either anymore -- this year we traded away our pick rather than using it to uncover a new steal.

Euro Manus????????

Do you ever saw a Map?

[MannyIsGod]

Euro Manus????????

Do you ever saw a Map?We use the term Euro to signafy a player playing in a European leauge, not his country of origion. Did Manu play in Italy or Argentina? Is Italy in Europe or do I need to saw a map?

[Obstructed_View]

Euro Manus????????

Do you ever saw a Map?

From NBA.COM
Ginobili spent two seasons - 1998-99 and 1999-00 - with Basket Viola Reggio Calabria before joining Virtus Bologna for the 2000-01 season

[spursmode]

This says something about the spurs sad offseason when there are 551 replies to a thead about Jackie Butler. GO SPURS GO :depressed

By the way I tried sawing a map and it just made a big mess. I would just suggest to anybody else just using scissors to cut it.

[Obstructed_View]

This says something about the spurs sad offseason when there are 551 replies to a thead about Jackie Butler. GO SPURS GO :depressed
Yeah, a 21 year old center project with massive upside on the cheap to replace two overpaid guys who didn't even get PT in the deciding series of the playoffs. Man, I'm gonna go find a razor.

[spursmode]

Yeah, a 21 year old center project with massive upside on the cheap to replace two overpaid guys who didn't even get PT in the deciding series of the playoffs. Man, I'm gonna go find a razor.

How does this make us better. Lets get one thing straight, we are just dumping salaries of guys that were overpaid. If Nazr would have taken the same amount of money that Butler is getting, who would you want? Who was more productive when on the floor. Taking Butler just makes fiscal sense and he might play ok. But by no means are we better. So lets sop acting like it. We will just be different. Upside is just another word for potential. Who says he has potential. Isiah? Isiah love him. Shit Isiah loved everybody last year and that is why they are so fucked up now. He has no business being a GM.

[exstatic]

How does this make us better. Lets get one thing straight, we are just dumping salaries of guys that were overpaid. If Nazr would have taken the same amount of money that Butler is getting, who would you want? Who was more productive when on the floor. Taking Butler just makes fiscal sense and he might play ok. But by no means are we better. So lets sop acting like it. We will just be different. Upside is just another word for potential. Who says he has potential. Isiah? Isiah love him. Shit Isiah loved everybody last year and that is why they are so fucked up now. He has no business being a GM.
Who would I take at the same money? Butler. Nazr is what he is and he isn't ever getting better at this point.

You can throw a lot of rocks Isaiah's way, but the one thing he does WELL is find and harvest young talent. Players he's drafted include Camby, Damon Stoudemire, TMac, Trevor Ariza, and Channing Frye.

[spursmode]

Who would I take at the same money? Butler. Nazr is what he is and he isn't ever getting better at this point.

You can throw a lot of rocks Isaiah's way, but the one thing he does WELL is find and harvest young talent. Players he's drafted include Camby, Damon Stoudemire, TMac, Trevor Ariza, and Channing Frye.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What do you think Pop and RC would have done? Go after Nazr at 3 years at $7,000,000 or Jackie at the same.
Hmmmm. Butler has a huge line of teams that sees his upside. How many teams gave him a offer? Hmmmm. Well shit Detroit with Dumars must be a bunch of dumbshits by offering Nazr that and not going after Jackie at a fraction of the price. The point I am trying to make is don't confuse dumping salaries with getting better now. It's nothing more than a fiscal move on the spurs part. Jackie might be able to play but lets not kid ourselves. We are not better off with him right now. We are still a championship caliber team and can still win it all but we are not a better team right now. We are worse off with the additions verses the subtractions in my opinion.

[Obstructed_View]

How does this make us better. Lets get one thing straight, we are just dumping salaries of guys that were overpaid. If Nazr would have taken the same amount of money that Butler is getting, who would you want? Who was more productive when on the floor. Taking Butler just makes fiscal sense and he might play ok. But by no means are we better. So lets sop acting like it. We will just be different. Upside is just another word for potential. Who says he has potential. Isiah? Isiah love him. Shit Isiah loved everybody last year and that is why they are so fucked up now. He has no business being a GM.
"When on the floor" is where the wheels come off your argument. If Butler is in the game plan against the Mavericks AT ALL then he's an improvement, no matter what he's being paid. And since there was no FUCKING way Nazr was going to take the same amount of money as Butler your argument loses the doors as well.

If Nazr would have taken the same amount as Butler, I'd still be going after Butler. Butler is young, athletic, has good hands, and hasn't been fucked up by the Knicks yet. The Spurs have Isiah's nose in a vice and the only way for him to get out of it is to cut of his face. Upside is another word for a ten rebound a game type of guy. That's way more potential than you were going to get from Nazr at twice the price. Nazr, by the way, is about four times the price. How's it looking now?

Dumping salaries and having a chance to a.) improve at the position b.) get younger and c.) have guys that will actually be in the rotation in the playoffs is a win-win-win-win situation in my book.

[spursmode]

"When on the floor" is where the wheels come off your argument. If Butler is in the game plan against the Mavericks AT ALL then he's an improvement, no matter what he's being paid. And since there was no FUCKING way Nazr was going to take the same amount of money as Butler your argument loses the doors as well.

If Nazr would have taken the same amount as Butler, I'd still be going after Butler. Butler is young, athletic, has good hands, and hasn't been fucked up by the Knicks yet. The Spurs have Isiah's nose in a vice and the only way for him to get out of it is to cut of his face. Upside is another word for a ten rebound a game type of guy. That's way more potential than you were going to get from Nazr at twice the price.

Dumping salaries and having a chance to a.) improve at the position b.) get younger and c.) have guys that will actually be in the rotation in the playoffs is a win-win-win-win situation in my book.

Stick to my original point and stop attempting to twist it. I said pretty sad when we are totally getting a hard on about Jackie Butler as our possible big aquisition this year. What has Butler done? Oh he's young. Last time I checked that doesn't constitute being a good player. By the way have you seen Jackie play if so when and how many points and rebounds did he have.
Those are some really strong points you made:
a.) "Chance" to improve at the position. I could say that about anybody the spurs signed.
b.) He is young. Does that mean good player?
c.) have guys that will actually be in the rotation in the playoffs. I have a feeling if Nazr couldn't get in their, Jackie wouldn't have either. The spurs chose to go smaller and quicker. Don't think Jackie's nickname is Air Jackie.

[koopa]

Stick to my original point and stop attempting to twist it. I said pretty sad when we are totally getting a hard on about Jackie Butler as our possible big aquisition this year. What has Butler done? Oh he's young. Last time I checked that doesn't constitute being a good player. By the way have you seen Jackie play if so when and how many points and rebounds did he have.
Those are some really strong points you made:
a.) "Chance" to improve at the position. I could say that about anybody the spurs signed.
b.) He is young. Does that mean good player?
c.) have guys that will actually be in the rotation in the playoffs. I have a feeling if Nazr couldn't get in their, Jackie wouldn't have either. The spurs chose to go smaller and quicker. Don't think Jackie's nickname is Air Jackie.


what has narz done though??? he wasn't that big in the finals, maybe in the playoffs but he didn't do much in the finals that made an impact on the game...butler has hands, that's the reason nazr didn't play, he couldn't hang on to anything. butler will be an upgrade over rasho and narz. narz had good games but is a retard, who the f'k pump fakes just to pump fake??? butler ain't that stupid

[spursmode]

what has narz done though??? he wasn't that big in the finals, maybe in the playoffs but he didn't do much in the finals that made an impact on the game...butler has hands, that's the reason nazr didn't play, he couldn't hang on to anything. butler will be an upgrade over rasho and narz. narz had good games but is a retard, who the f'k pump fakes just to pump fake??? butler ain't that stupid
Who says Jackie has good hands? You do. What are you basing this on? He had the same amount of turnovers playing 4 minutes less a game last year as Nazr did. Detroit apparently doesn't agree with you at all. How many teams again were knocking down Jackie's door saying come play for us please? This to me is a sign of we are running out of options and better get a big man. Again my original point was this is pretty sad when this is the most exciting thing to talk about in the offseason. I was referring to over 500 posts to this thread.

[Kori Ellis]

Who says Jackie has good hands? You do. What are you basing this on? He had the same amount of turnovers playing 4 minutes less a game last year as Nazr did. Detroit apparently doesn't agree with you at all.

Everyone says he has good hands. It's one of the main things you notice if you watch him play. He catches everything thrown to him. Look on any scouting reports.


How many teams again were knocking down Jackie's door saying come play for us please? This to me is a sign of we are running out of options and better get a big man. Again my original point was this is pretty sad when this is the most exciting thing to talk about in the offseason. I was referring to over 500 posts to this thread.

Several teams were after him. He even turned down an offer sheet from another team for more money to sign the Spurs offer sheet.

[koopa]

Who says Jackie has good hands? You do. What are you basing this on? He had the same amount of turnovers playing 4 minutes less a game last year as Nazr did. Detroit apparently doesn't agree with you at all. How many teams again were knocking down Jackie's door saying come play for us please? This to me is a sign of we are running out of options and better get a big man. Again my original point was this is pretty sad when this is the most exciting thing to talk about in the offseason. I was referring to over 500 posts to this thread.


nazr is this you???? every report i've read on this dude says he has very good hands, he may have the same amount of turnovers in ny but you got to take into account who is passing him the ball, parker and beno are 349587 times better passer then marbury and whoever the hell they use at point. like kori said in the post above this one is that he turned down more money to try to come here so obviously ppl wanted him.

[waly.mg]

So Bruce Bowen is Euro too, because he played in France, and Kobe too because he grow up in Italy

And now, Manu is Northamerican because he play in the Spurs, and Hakeem Olajuwon too, because he played in the Dream Team

Manu´s style of play is from southamerica, like Nocioni

I never saw an euro player with the style of Manu

[Obstructed_View]

a.) "Chance" to improve at the position. I could say that about anybody the spurs signed.
Except you wouldn't, because Elson and Butler could be a significant upgrade for less money and virtually no risk. Nazr wasn't going to be more than he ever was, and did I mention he cost four times as much for a five year commitment?

b.) He is young. Does that mean good player?
"Good player" means good player. By the way, he's a good player, with a chance to be a great player, like Manu or Parker did, for less money and virtually no risk. And did I mention...oh yeah, I did.

c.) have guys that will actually be in the rotation in the playoffs. I have a feeling if Nazr couldn't get in their, Jackie wouldn't have either. The spurs chose to go smaller and quicker. Don't think Jackie's nickname is Air Jackie.
He and Elson are quicker than Nazr and Rasho plus the Spurs freed up enough money and a spot to bring Mahinmi over and get a couple of prospects for an athletic defensive three plus a veteran to back up Bowen. Again, you just have no argument here. You can always hope Butler bombs out so you can come in here and give me a big "I told you so". That's about the best you can do.

[spurster]

Scola dug his own hole taking a ridiculous contract. His Euro team has been reasonably clever to set their buyout just low enough not to look bad, but high enough to discourage the Spurs. Somehow his Euro team is never mentioned much as a bad guy in this story.

Javtokas is not going to get than more than the LLE in his first contract. Certainly not a lot more, especially post-accident.

[Obstructed_View]

So Bruce Bowen is Euro too, because he played in France, and Kobe too because he grow up in Italy

And now, Manu is Northamerican because he play in the Spurs, and Hakeem Olajuwon too, because he played in the Dream Team

Manu´s style of play is from southamerica, like Nocioni

I never saw an euro player with the style of Manu
Good lord, will you fucking let it go already? You've already been proven wrong, stop dragging it out.

[spursmode]

Except you wouldn't, because Elson and Butler could be a significant upgrade for less money and virtually no risk. Nazr wasn't going to be more than he ever was, and did I mention he cost four times as much for a five year commitment?

"Good player" means good player. By the way, he's a good player, with a chance to be a great player, like Manu or Parker did, for less money and virtually no risk. And did I mention...oh yeah, I did.

He and Elson are quicker than Nazr and Rasho plus the Spurs freed up enough money and a spot to bring Mahinmi over and get a couple of prospects for an athletic defensive three plus a veteran to back up Bowen. Again, you just have no argument here. You can always hope Butler bombs out so you can come in here and give me a big "I told you so". That's about the best you can do.

Hey obstructed view pull your head out and maybe you can see clearly, you are the king of changing shit around and not keeping on the damn subject. You are the one who came at me and twisted the living fuck out of what I was saying. You keep changing shit such as adding Elson to try to back up your point about quickness. I never mentioned Elson. I am talking about Butler. Is Jackie Fatass fast? So leave that part out. A couple of you keep trying to sneak by that Butler is better. I just don't know what in the hell you are basing that on. Who that matters really thinks that. What has Butler done? Oh yeah he is young. I am not hoping that Butler bombs. I hope the fuck he does well. I want the spurs to do well. I just get tired of hearing that Jackie is better. That is the most uneducated bullshit I have ever heard. What teams were interested in Jackie. WHO? Answer me. WHO? Team Obstructed View was. Well that makes me sleep better at night. Again the point I am very clearly making there have been a tremendous amount of posts about Jackie and about how he alot of potential and going to be good and we are better off now if we get him. Who that matters thinks that. Where can outside of this forum can you find me this belief.

[spursmode]

Oh yeah. I read that his agent said that he turned down a more lucrative offer to go with the spurs. Again that is his agent that said this. I put agents up there with used car salesmen when it comes to trust. I hear about other players and rumors of specific teams that were after there services but when it comes to Jackie no specifics. Is this just rumor started by the agent? Again has he proven that he can play in the NBA. Yes. Is he going to be a good player? I hope so. But for right now there is nothing that we can base it on to get too excited about. If he was truly that good I would think that the spurs would have offered much more and split it with Elson to ensure that the Knicks would not match. Again just my original post was making a response to over 500 posts to this thread about Butler and good he is.

[waly.mg]

Scola dug his own hole taking a ridiculous contract. His Euro team has been reasonably clever to set their buyout just low enough not to look bad, but high enough to discourage the Spurs. Somehow his Euro team is never mentioned much as a bad guy in this story.

Javtokas is not going to get than more than the LLE in his first contract. Certainly not a lot more, especially post-accident.

Scola signed his contract when he was 17-18 years, in this contract the buyout changes if he was selected in the Draft with differents values, but the clause only talk about a 1st Round Picks and not a secound round

When you are young and someone offer you a couple of millions, you are going to sign a contract with stupid buyout and other things too

The last argentinien signed of tha TAU is Matias Nocedal, who signed with only 16 years a 8 years contract, for only 3 millions

3 Millions is a lot of money for a young player, and he is going to sign where ever the fuck you tell him to sign



La puerta se abrió con Gaby Díaz y Walter Guiñazú a inicios de los 90. Luego llegaron Nicola y Espil. Tau Cerámica terminó de convertirse en la sucursal argentina cuando, en el 2002, ganó la Copa del Rey con Scola, Nocioni, Oberto, Sconochini y Gaby Fernández. Ahora están Scola y Prigioni, pero ya se aseguraron a otro: Matías Nocedal, una de las mayores promesas argentinas. El pibe de 16 años, un base de 1m90, cerró un acuerdo por ocho años. Parecido al de Scola en 1997 (por diez años). El pibe seguirá en Argentino de Castelar pero en Europa ya tiene dueño.



Like you can see, Scola signed his contract with the Tau in 1997 for 10 seasons

[furry_spurry]

I find this ironic-- people keep saying New York won't match because they won't want to spend that much money on a third string guy- but then that same third-string guy is somehow so superior to Nazr and Rasho. Wouldn't he have played more if he was that good. Now don't get me wrong, those who see POTENTIAL in him I understand, but that is not the same thing as being claimed.

[koopa]

Hey obstructed view pull your head out and maybe you can see clearly, you are the king of changing shit around and not keeping on the damn subject. You are the one who came at me and twisted the living fuck out of what I was saying. You keep changing shit such as adding Elson to try to back up your point about quickness. I never mentioned Elson. I am talking about Butler. Is Jackie Fatass fast? So leave that part out. A couple of you keep trying to sneak by that Butler is better. I just don't know what in the hell you are basing that on. Who that matters really thinks that. What has Butler done? Oh yeah he is young. I am not hoping that Butler bombs. I hope the fuck he does well. I want the spurs to do well. I just get tired of hearing that Jackie is better. That is the most uneducated bullshit I have ever heard. What teams were interested in Jackie. WHO? Answer me. WHO? Team Obstructed View was. Well that makes me sleep better at night. Again the point I am very clearly making there have been a tremendous amount of posts about Jackie and about how he alot of potential and going to be good and we are better off now if we get him. Who that matters thinks that. Where can outside of this forum can you find me this belief.


you keep saying what has butler done, but what has nazr ever done??? his stone hands is what kept him out of the line up against the mavs, butler at least has hands. nazr was not a huge part to our championship, he was a nice addition but he isn't the reason we won. we would've won with malik too. and at least butler has room to improve, nazr is stuck in his pointless pump faking, hands that make malik look like an all pro wide reciever, can't rotate on D ways, and won't improve. butler can and will improve with the spurs if he isn't matched

[ducks]

I find this ironic-- people keep saying New York won't match because they won't want to spend that much money on a third string guy- but then that same third-string guy is somehow so superior to Nazr and Rasho. Wouldn't he have played more if he was that good. Now don't get me wrong, those who see POTENTIAL in him I understand, but that is not the same thing as being claimed.

curry is better then butler now
butler is not going to be great next year
he needs time to get better

if people think he is going to be great next year they are mistaken

[strangeweather]

I find this ironic-- people keep saying New York won't match because they won't want to spend that much money on a third string guy- but then that same third-string guy is somehow so superior to Nazr and Rasho. Wouldn't he have played more if he was that good. Now don't get me wrong, those who see POTENTIAL in him I understand, but that is not the same thing as being claimed.
Last year he was ahead of Jerome James, who signed for a max midlevel deal.

He was behind Frye, who was a lottery pick and one of the best rookies in the league. Both players played well. To this point, Frye is definitely a better defender.

He was behind Eddy Curry who signed a $60 million contract, but was much more effective than Curry.

If these players were all up for free agency, you would let Jerome James walk, do whatever you could to keep Frye and Butler, and lowball Curry or replace him with a free agent. But the Knicks not only have two untradeable contracts on their books, Zeke has to demonstrate that Curry and James were smart signings. So that means Butler is the odd man out.

[infinite styles]

I find this ironic-- people keep saying New York won't match because they won't want to spend that much money on a third string guy- but then that same third-string guy is somehow so superior to Nazr and Rasho. Wouldn't he have played more if he was that good. Now don't get me wrong, those who see POTENTIAL in him I understand, but that is not the same thing as being claimed.

Butler was in essense the second string center and first string when it came to the fourth quarter. Now I'm not expecting Butler or Elson to be great next year if we get them and I don't think that the Spurs expect that either. Hell I haven't expected much out of the center position since DRob retired. All I wanted to see was somebody that was mobile, could rebound and get out of Tim's way when he is trying to get position. Neither Rasho or Nazr were that. Rasho had the mobility of a snail and Nazr was always out of position. And neither did much damage on the boards unless we were playing the Suns.

To be honest I see Butler and Elson as slight improvements because they bring different aspects to the table that Nazr and Rasho just didn't have. I like players that had to go through alternative routes to get to the league because they are usually the ones that will fight the hardest when they get on the court. I'm sorry but thats just me. Who knows maybe Butler does become something next year if the Knicks don't match based on the simple fact that SA doesn't have the amount of distractions that NY has.

I may be one of the few optimist on this board but I feel like this is gonna be a good year based on more than just us getting a center. To me the roster looks the same but with a rested Tim and Manu possibly returning to all star form and Parker improving everyday this could be another Championship year. Hell remember the last time we got a Knick center on the cheap? :fro

[ducks]

nazr was always is the way
rasho atleast could set a pick
butler and elson need to set a pick and get out of manu,tp duncan way

[ChumpDumper]

I still haven't figured out what this past day's argument is about.

[Obstructed_View]

blah blah blah
Okay, here's the "damn subject":

So far, you have disbelieved people here who have seen him play, the scouting reports about him, his agent, the Spurs front office, Larry Brown, Gregg Popovich, and whoever else thinks he has potential just so you can call him "Jackie Fatass" and heaped scorn upon anyone who thinks it's a good potential upgrade at the center position from Nazr for millions less than keeping Nazr. It sounds like nothing is going to convince you that he's got any potential.

I love that you base a player's value on a.) what he's already done b.) how old he is and c) if anyone else wanted him first. Not surprising since you seem to want to have paid max money to Nazr for the next five years or offered huge money to a big time free agent for a team that's already over the cap. The way you find young talent is you take risks. Nobody knows for sure what he's going to turn into, but you want fucking guarantees. Guess what? The only guarantee would have been on Nazr's contract for the next five years. Time for plan B. We are discussing it. Get the fuck over it.

By the way, if you want to base judgments on a player's resume, Nazr has a bigger history of weight problems than Jackie Fatass does.

Since Pop didn't have the confidence to put Nazr or Rasho in the games when it mattered most, could Butler really be worse than nothing? I don't really see how.

[Obstructed_View]

I still haven't figured out what this past day's argument is about.
Cliffs Notes version:

The front office sucks, they should have signed a big time free agent. Woe is us. We aren't making any moves. We are wasting Tim Duncan's prime. Holt is a cheap ass. Jackie Butler is fat.

Sound familiar?

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, but Nazr?

Someone misses that dude?

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, but Nazr?

Someone misses that dude?
He's done stuff before.

[Streakyshooter08]

Sorry if it has already been asked before but when is the exact deadline for the Knicks to match the offer?

[Kori Ellis]

Thursday, I'm not sure the time.

[Streakyshooter08]

Thursday, I'm not sure the time.

Thanks a lot... I checked some stats of him an he was able to pull off a 18/9 in ca. 21 min) game against Detroit last year. Seems that he has some potential. I hope he joins the Spurs.

[Gino20]

Yeah, for some odd reason i am starting to feel positive about Butler. Larry Brown was high on him, so that has to count for something. I think he will be a good addition. I think he can put up the same stats as Rasho and butterfinger Nazr lol!

[spursmode]

I still haven't figured out what this past day's argument is about.

Pretty simple: Let me break it down.
My original post: pretty sad over 500 posts for Jackie. Says something about our offseason.

Obstructo's response: We are better off because Jackie's got "massive upside" and that he is going to go slash his wrist because he is so depressed.

My point is what in the hell has Jackie done and why do I keep seeing a few hundred posts about how freaking good he is. I agree that Nazr and Rasho were overpaid and that we had to get rid of of their contracts, but that doesn't mean the spurs are a better team now. I believe Pop made a mistake by going small in response to Dallas's lineup. Again, I keep hearing all of this overhyped crap about the massive potential of Jackie and how every team was after him and how he turned down a much more lucrative contract from somewhere else because he wanted to play for us and how lucky we are. Most of the aforementioned crap is coming from his agent. Very trust worthy source. I have yet to find out what other team offered him that damn contract and what other teams were after him. Jackie is what he is. Currently a bench warmer who can give you a few minutes and some productivity and help your team.

[Gino20]

If I am correct, Nazr only averaged 16 mpg. Yeah, Butler is young, but he put up the same stats as Nazr and we get him at a much lower price. I will take that anyday of the week. Better off? No, but not worse off imo. Especially in the long run...

[leemajors]

Pretty simple: Let me break it down.
My original post: pretty sad over 500 posts for Jackie. Says something about our offseason.

Obstructo's response: We are better off because Jackie's got "massive upside" and that he is going to go slash his wrist because he is so depressed.

My point is what in the hell has Jackie done and why do I keep seeing a few hundred posts about how freaking good he is. I agree that Nazr and Rasho were overpaid and that we had to get rid of of their contracts, but that doesn't mean the spurs are a better team now. I believe Pop made a mistake by going small in response to Dallas's lineup. Again, I keep hearing all of this overhyped crap about the massive potential of Jackie and how every team was after him and how he turned down a much more lucrative contract from somewhere else because he wanted to play for us and how lucky we are. Most of the aforementioned crap is coming from his agent. Very trust worthy source. I have yet to find out what other team offered him that damn contract and what other teams were after him. Jackie is what he is. Currently a bench warmer who can give you a few minutes and some productivity and help your team.

we would be better off simply because of the fact jackie does not drop every other pass that comes his way, unlike nazr. not to mention the fact that we desperately need another option in the paint when timmy is out of the game... :lol

[ChumpDumper]

Jackie is what he is. Currently a bench warmer who can give you a few minutes and some productivity and help your team.So it's a lateral move.

[CaptainLate]

Yeah, for some odd reason i am starting to feel positive about Butler. Larry Brown was high on him, so that has to count for something.

I'm sure Pop spoke with his good friend LB before making a decision to go after Butler. LB, wanting to screw the Knicks, probably gave Pop some idea of how much it would take to pry Butler away. :elephant

[td4mvp3]

so is it a good sign that after so many days, there are still scant indications that the knicks definitely intend to resign him?

[Mr. Body]

so is it a good sign that after so many days, there are still scant indications that the knicks definitely intend to resign him?

I don't think so - either way. There are probably so many trade scenarios brewing right now, it's impossible to tell.

[ducks]

no both teams said they would take tell day 6 or 7

[Obstructed_View]

I don't think so - either way. There are probably so many trade scenarios brewing right now, it's impossible to tell.
Yeah, the Knicks could just as easily match it and tell the Spurs "If you want him, you have to trade for him." That would be foolish on their part, but of course it wouldn't be blazing any new ground.

[dknights411]

Pretty simple: Let me break it down.
My original post: pretty sad over 500 posts for Jackie. Says something about our offseason.


Hey, people do weird things when they are completly board out of their minds. I'm just waiting for the season to start. :wakeup

[Big P]

I dont think you can trade a player, so soon after the team matched a RFA offer.

[Obstructed_View]

I dont think you can trade a player, so soon after the team matched a RFA offer.
So the team can't even trade him? Wow. I thought that was only if he accepted a qualifying offer. I hate this shit. It's confusing.

[exstatic]

NY cannot trade him to the other 28 teams for months, and not to SA for a YEAR if they match.

[strangeweather]

So the team can't even trade him? Wow. I thought that was only if he accepted a qualifying offer. I hate this shit. It's confusing.
From the Salary Cap FAQ:

In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

...

For one year after exercising the right of first refusal to keep a restricted free agent (however, the player can consent to a trade to any team except the team that tried to sign him).


So he can be traded, but not to us. That prevents teams from matching for blackmail purposes.

[Obstructed_View]

From the Salary Cap FAQ:

In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

...

For one year after exercising the right of first refusal to keep a restricted free agent (however, the player can consent to a trade to any team except the team that tried to sign him).


So he can be traded, but not to us. That prevents teams from matching for blackmail purposes.
Well good. That was the only scenario under which I could see Isiah matching, and even then it would have been stupid. I honestly can't see how he can match, considering how much he would cost the team.

[Streakyshooter08]

Looks like the chances of the Spurs increase a bit...


Isiah has interest in Jeffries



BY FRANK ISOLA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Isiah Thomas says he is not actively pursing deals for free agents, but behind the scenes the Knicks' president and coach continues to search for ways to bolster his roster.
One player who continues to draw interest from the Knicks is Washington forward Jared Jeffries, a restricted free agent. According to sources, the Knicks have had conversations with Jeffries' agent, Andy Miller, in recent days as negotiations between Jeffries and the Wizards have stalled. Jeffries is considering accepting Washington's one-year qualifying offer for approximately $3 million, which would make him an unrestricted free agent next summer.

Miller, who also represents free agent forward Al Harrington, did not return phone calls yesterday.

The Knicks can offer Jeffries their mid-level exception, starting at approximately $5.2 million. The Knicks are reluctant to add salary, but the 6-11 Jeffries, who can play four positions, would give the team a versatile player who is regarded as a strong defender. The 24-year-old Jeffries averaged 6.4 points and 4.9 rebounds in 77 games last season.

The Knicks' interest in Jeffries suggests that Thomas will not match the three-year, $7 million offer Jackie Butler received from the San Antonio Spurs. The Knicks have until tomorrow to decide on Butler's fate. By allowing Butler to leave, the Knicks would have one roster spot available.

Washington would have the option to match any offer made to Jeffries. A sign-and-trade scenario is unlikely because of salary cap restrictions. Jeffries is best suited to play small forward, a position that is currently filled by Jalen Rose, Quentin Richardson and first-round pick Renaldo Balkman. David Lee is another option for small forward.

Jeffries, however, can play both forward positions as well as center and has even played big guard for Washington.

[Mr. Body]

Only the Knicks would pass on Jackie Butler only to turn around and offer Jeffries the MLE.

I'm surprised the Daily News got the timing on the Butler RFA deadline wrong, unless Isola knows of something going down we don't.

[timvp]

KNICKS' BUTLER DEADLINE EXTENDED
By MARC BERMAN

July 18, 2006 -- The Knicks have been granted an extra day to decide whether to match third-string center Jackie Butler's three-year, $7 million offer sheet from the Spurs, but indications are stronger than ever they don't plan to do so.

Because of a clerical error on Butler's offer sheet, the Knicks have until Thursday, instead of tomorrow, to make their decision.

That's eight days to realize matching the offer is fiscal insanity. Butler would cost the Knicks $14 million, including luxury tax. The Knicks plan to make San Antonio wait until Thursday to announce their decision.

Nobody from the Knicks has even contacted Butler or his agent, Keith Glass, since the offer sheet was presented last Wednesday. Butler elected to skip summer league, so the Knicks have no idea what kind of shape he's even in.

The Knicks already have two centers in Eddy Curry and Jerome James, and are counting heavily on both of those big investments.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/knicks_butler_deadline_extended_knicks_marc_berman .htm

[Mr. Body]

NY Post seems to think he's gone. Looking at Jeffries suggests he's gone.

Where's Butler? It'd be hilarious if he was at Big Boy's somewhere gorging on triple stacks.

[furry_spurry]

Because of a clerical error on Butler's offer sheet, the Knicks have until Thursday, instead of tomorrow, to make their decision.
And here people thought the Spurs put some secret thing in the contract- but instead it sounds like someone goofed.


Butler elected to skip summer league, so the Knicks have no idea what kind of shape he's even in.
This is the guy to save the summer- :lol

[picnroll]

Hopefully James is in good shape and the Knicks know it.

[Solid D]

As mentioned earlier, the Knicks actually have 3 who can play center besides Butler. Curry, James and Frye.

On another note...I don't blame people for associating Butler with food. I mean a guy named "Butler" and accompanied by people named "Curry" and "Frye". No wonder he needed a "Taylor" to be nearby. :lol

[infinite styles]

Butler hoping to go to SA could possibly mean that he is in the best shape of his career. I would worry about his weight if he found out that the Knicks were going to match.

[CaptainLate]

And here people thought the Spurs put some secret thing in the contract- but instead it sounds like someone goofed.

The league gives them an extra day because of some damn "clerical error"? Must be some helluva error. I wonder what Spurs FO personnel will be fired over that one. :madrun

[CaptainLate]

This is the guy to save the summer- :lol

I can't tell if your :lol indicates you are being facetious?

[Phenomanul]

As mentioned earlier, the Knicks actually have 3 who can play center besides Butler. Curry, James and Frye.

On another note...I don't blame people for associating Butler with food. I mean a guy named "Butler" and accompanied by people named "Curry" and "Frye". No wonder he needed a "Taylor" to be nearby. :lol


Odd coincidence....

[T Park]

Furry Spurry has taken over for most miserable and biggest bitcher of the summer over for Shaggy17.


Congrats Furry.

[ChumpDumper]

Washington would have the option to match any offer made to Jeffries. A sign-and-trade scenario is unlikely because of salary cap restrictions. Jeffries is best suited to play small forward, a position that is currently filled by Jalen Rose, Quentin Richardson and first-round pick Renaldo Balkman. David Lee is another option for small forward.

Jeffries, however, can play both forward positions as well as center and has even played big guard for Washington.The thing is, the Wiz have a younger guy who looks like he'll be better at everything than Jeffries ever could be. They haven't figured out exactly how to rein in Andray Blatche's talents yet, so consistency is the only real reason for keeping Jeffries - and they got a bit more of that with the Songaila signing.

[timvp]

I would think that the Songaila signing was to unofficially replace JJ. They won't come out and say it but if a team offers him a Max MLE then I highly doubt the Wizards would match.

Or perhaps the Wizards realized that JJ is just not that good.

[Mr. Body]

Jeffries is a minor player. I'm guessing they caught wind of interest from the NYK (and others) to toss money at him and wrapped Songaila up. Who is also a minor player, albeit slightly less minor.

[timvp]

At least Songaila can do a couple things well. I'm still searching for anything that Jeffries brings to the table other than being a tall guy who is a decent defender on a horrible defensive team.

[Mr. Body]

To me, Songaila is by far the better player.

And, as I've said, he's the guy who signed Malik Rose's ticket out of here.

[CaptainLate]

To me, Songaila is by far the better player. And, as I've said, he's the guy who signed Malik Rose's ticket out of here.

How so?

[ChumpDumper]

OK, Don Harris busts out that a source inside the Knicks organization told him they probably wouldn't match.

Great sports journalism, right? Inside. Knowledgeable. Relevant.

He follows immediately with a story about Keith Davis getting shot in the "tricked out Chevy Impala" that Don says Keith bragged about for their cameras not long before. OAI then runs the tape of Davis showing off an Audi.

Fantastic.

[Solid D]

I'll take Butler, you can take or leave Elson.

[Budkin]

I'm not getting my hopes up on Butler until Thursday is come and gone.

[Mr. Body]

How so?

When Malik infamously threw the ball out of bounds and pulled his jersey over his head, his man took advantage and ran down the court for an easy score. That man was Darius Songaila.

I'm exaggerating, since Malik was the one who signed his own ticket, but that's widely seen as the play that finally did him in. He didn't play much after that one.

[ChumpDumper]

As of today, Butler's agent still hasn't heard from the Knicks....

....for whatever that's worth.

[timvp]

I'll take Butler, you can take or leave Elson.

It's funny that people are on timvp for not wanting Elson but Solid D has been on the same bus as me the whole time. With him also not wanting Elson, I know I'm right.

:smokin

[T Park]

I guess me and Kris are wrong as well.......

[Solid D]

It's funny that people are on timvp for not wanting Elson but Solid D has been on the same bus as me the whole time. With him also not wanting Elson, I know I'm right.

:smokin

Yeah but you know if Elson does end up signing with the Spurs and he earns his keep (value)....we shall be scorned. :)

[Spurs9]

OK, Don Harris busts out that a source inside the Knicks organization told him they probably wouldn't match.

Great sports journalism, right? Inside. Knowledgeable. Relevant.

He follows immediately with a story about Keith Davis getting shot in the "tricked out Chevy Impala" that Don says Keith bragged about for their cameras not long before. OAI then runs the tape of Davis showing off an Audi.

Fantastic.
Peanut butter leather.
:lmao

[baseline bum]

It's funny that people are on timvp for not wanting Elson but Solid D has been on the same bus as me the whole time. With him also not wanting Elson, I know I'm right.

:smokin

So did we get Elson? It appears so.

[Solid D]

So did we get Elson? It appears so.

Everyone should know by Thursday, Baseline.

[baseline bum]

I thought the one-day delay was only with the wording on Butler's deal.

[Solid D]

I'm not sure anyone has published when the clock stops Wednesday for the Nuggets.

[timvp]

I guess me and Kris are wrong as well.......

You celebrated the most out of anyone when Rasho was signed. You are also on record as saying you'd trade Manu Ginobili for Nazr Mohammed.

I was the biggest Rasho hater there was before the signing, saying it was going to be one of the worst contracts in Spurs' history. I also said Nazr was going to be decent but nowhere near the 10 and 10 guy Spurs fans were claiming.

And I'll be right about Elson ... again.

[timvp]

I'm not sure anyone has published when the clock stops Wednesday for the Nuggets.

Both the Knicks and the Nuggets have until 3PM EST on Thursday according to a person in the know.

[baseline bum]

You celebrated the most out of anyone when Rasho was signed. You are also on record as saying you'd trade Manu Ginobili for Nazr Mohammed.

I was the biggest Rasho hater there was before the signing, saying it was going to be one of the worst contracts in Spurs' history. I also said Nazr was going to be decent but nowhere near the 10 and 10 guy Spurs fans were claiming.

And I'll be right about Elson ... again.

You couldn't possibly have hated the idea of signing Rasho as much as I did. I was calling it back in 2002 that Rasho is who the Spurs would end up with instead of Kidd, and how I wanted no part of it.

[Solid D]

Both the Knicks and the Nuggets have until 3PM EST on Thursday according to a person in the know.

Hmmm. Okay.

[timvp]

You couldn't possibly have hated the idea of signing Rasho as much as I did. I was calling it back in 2002 that Rasho is who the Spurs would end up with instead of Kidd, and how I wanted no part of it.

Me and you were 1 and 2.

Remember timvp's thread entitled "Do Not Sign Rasho Nesterovic!!!!!!"?

And of course, T Park was the number one Rasho pimp claiming he was going to come in and make Spurs fans forget about David Robinson.

[Solid D]

The Knicks said they got an extra day due to a clerical error on the offer sheet, although the offer was technically made on Wednesday. Was the offer sheet for Elson last Wed. made with the same error?

[exstatic]

I'm not getting my hopes up on Butler until Thursday is come and gone.
That's a good stance to take.

[baseline bum]

I don't understand why RC offered Elson a higher contract this year than Butler. I know Elson's a vet and a known quantity, but when that known quantity is a known scrub you would think the unknown would command more.

[timvp]

The Knicks said they got an extra day due to a clerical error on the offer sheet, although the offer was technically made on Wednesday. Was the offer sheet for Elson last Wed. made with the same error?

Yeah they were both held up for similar reasons.

Holt probably used some fuzzy math to try to save a couple bucks.

[timvp]

I don't understand why RC offered Elson 3 years and Butler 2. I know Elson's a vet and a known quantity, but when that known quantity is a known scrub you would think the unknown would command more.

You mean Elson $3M and Butler $2M per year.

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out why the Spurs offered Elson anything over the minimum.

[baseline bum]

I don't understand why they'd offer Elson the minimum even. I smell another Chucky Brown situation, and I'm still convinced Butler's not coming. You don't give up young talent that has some trade value over $2 million.

[shaggy17]

Furry Spurry has taken over for most miserable and biggest bitcher of the summer over for Shaggy17.


Congrats Furry.

:rolleyes i havent bitched in awhile and dont act like you havent bursted out at the Spurs before :lol Also the knicks will match the offer they are just fucking around!

[El_Mago]

Quote:




Butler elected to skip summer league, so the Knicks have no idea what kind of shape he's even in.



This is the guy to save the summer-

Butler skipped Summer League because he wanted no part of NY.

He wanted to give them a clear indication that he wanted to bolt for another team, even prior to signing with the Spurs.

He was Larry Browns boy. Reason why Larry played him was because he busted his ass in practice and on the court, and put much more of an effort than Curry and James combined.

Larry and Demps (now works with the Spurs) gave Pop the scouting report, and know what the kid is made of....he's far from a lazy ass with no game.

Like I said in a previous post, this is going to be a summer that everyone hates on, but in due time will look back as being a great summer all because of this kid. He's the real deal.

[Mr. Body]

Like I said in a previous post, this is going to be a summer that everyone hates on, but in due time will look back as being a great summer all because of this kid. He's the real deal.

I agree with everything you say. I can't bear to be fully excited about him until he's finally a Spur, but this guy has future starter written all over him. And not in the Rasho mold.

[El_Mago]

Agreed, Mr. Body.

He has the physical tools to play, is agressive down low, has a low post game, active on the boards, and already has displayed the desire to work hard, and is coachable....playing next to Duncan is only going to advance his game, and make that rise to the next level a lot easier and quicker.

He's going to be the steal of free agency.

[strangeweather]

Agreed, Mr. Body.

He has the physical tools to play, is agressive down low, has a low post game, active on the boards, and already has displayed the desire to work hard, and is coachable....playing next to Duncan is only going to advance his game, and make that rise to the next level a lot easier and quicker.

He's going to be the steal of free agency.
One major key is going to be his ability to develop as a defender. He doesn't have a lot to start with, but he's young and he isn't stupid, so hopefully he can catch on given time.

[El_Mago]

Of course, but the Spurs pride themselves on defense.

He's young and he turned down other offers to come to SA because he felt it would be a good fit for him....thus, he knows he's going to have to bust his ass on defense to even see playing time, which I think will be no problem.....I see him starting.

He busted his ass for Larry Brown, because Larry is not going to play a 21 year old if he's not busting his ass or playing D.....same thing will go for Popovich.

Good thing here though....the Spurs have great defensive schemes and of course Tim Duncan, who can lead and show Butler on how to become a better defender.

The kid is no dummy. He knows what he is getting into.

[Mr. Body]

I don't doubt he'll be fine on defense. He averaged 0.6 blocks last year in only about 13 mpg. Defense isn't all about blocks, of course, but that's a pretty decent rate. From what I've seen he's not that slow laterally and he'll bust his butt on rotations. With his size he could be a nice post defender. I can't see him not taking to it.

He could be a total load on the other side. He could become a huge post threat.

I don't think I'll read this thread again... until it's done...

[Solid D]

From what I've seen, Butler isn't that great of a defender but he can block shots and he's effective when used to collapse the lane. However, he can be instant offense. He has "the gift" in the paint. Magnet shot short-range.

[Mr. Body]

... AND soft hands. "He'll catch anything" is how the scouting reports describe him.

[timvp]

Butler has that rare combination of good hands and great touch around the basket. He's a similar player to Al Jefferson who is going to be really good one day in his own right.

[timvp]

Man it's going to suck so much when the Knicks match. I can just see Isiah smiling in a press conference holding up a Jackie Butler number 45 jersey and saying how he wanted him the whole time.

And then the Spurs will have Francisco Freakin' Elson wearing his number 2! jersey.

:cry

[Mr. Body]

From what I've seen, Butler isn't that great of a defender but he can block shots and he's effective when used to collapse the lane. However, he can be instant offense. He has "the gift" in the paint. Magnet shot short-range.

"The Gift" might not be a bad nickname for him, if we manage to get him.

[koopa]

lol @ some of y'all, y'all hype up butler, and then come back with but i know he's gonna get matched.....are y'all trying to jinx it or something, so that he doesn't get matched??

[Louis]

Man it's going to suck so much when the Knicks match. I can just see Isiah smiling in a press conference holding up a Jackie Butler number 45 jersey and saying how he wanted him the whole time.

And then the Spurs will have Francisco Freakin' Elson wearing his number 2! jersey.

:cry

Actually the Nuggets are planning to match as well....

[timvp]

Actually the Nuggets are planning to match as well....

We can only hope they do.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't feel like reading the last two pages.

Have we talked ourselves into thinking he'll be a Spur or are we bitching about the FO?

[ShoogarBear]

And then the Spurs will have Francisco Freakin' Elson wearing his number 2! jersey.

:cry
I hope not. whottt will go apeshit.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Wait

We're going to let him wear #2? That was Jaren Jackson's number. This is an outrage.

[Samr]

lol @ some of y'all, y'all hype up butler, and then come back with but i know he's gonna get matched.....are y'all trying to jinx it or something, so that he doesn't get matched??

We're hedging our bets. By giving him an optomistic scouting report, and then being pessimistic that he'll get signed, we either claim we "called it early!" if Isiah's in his right mind, or we jump for joy with faux surprise if he becomes a Spur.

Join in. It's a lot of fun.

[Kori Ellis]

Wait

We're going to let him wear #2? That was Jaren Jackson's number. This is an outrage.

You realize Nazr wore #2, right?

[Kori Ellis]

Here's what Butler's agent said yesterday, in case anyone missed it.

http://www.woai.com/mediacenter/default.aspx?videoId=276016

[Mr. Body]

:clap

[SpursWoman]

:pctoss @ no sound card

[spursmode]

:pctoss @ no sound card

Basically Jackie's agent said "My client is fat and slow and is looking forward to all the wonderful restaraunts down in San Antonio and I am wondering if his clients space on the bench could come with a toilet and newspaper"

[Kori Ellis]

:pctoss @ no sound card

Watch it anyway. They show the quote from his agent on the screen.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

You realize Nazr wore #2, right?

That was an outrage as well.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Here's what Butler's agent said yesterday, in case anyone missed it.

http://www.woai.com/mediacenter/default.aspx?videoId=276016

I'm on campus, can't download Active x...can you paraphrase?

[SpursWoman]

Watch it anyway. They show the quote from his agent on the screen.



Cool ... gracias. :)

[Solid D]

And then the Spurs will have Francisco Freakin' Elson wearing his number 2! jersey.

:cry

timvp said 2! (Hint)
http://www.spursteam.com/coyote/gallery1/sm_1826650_10.jpg