Who Should be the Last Cut?

[Solid D]

Was Tolliver even positive?

I have not done Tolliver's numbers, yet. At this juncture, barring a trade or another signing, I think the battle is between the two wing players. The Spurs really have wanted to add a combo 4/3 this season, if possible.

[Obstructed_View]

Now you are just making stuff up. How is he not a rebounder? He had 8 boards in the Indy game with 4 on the offensive glass...and that wasn't his only multiple offensive rebounding game. He has also had a couple of games with multiple steals. If he can do those things he is already 150% better than Bonner.

That is, by far, the best case I've seen made for Tolliver yet. Thank you very much for not saying that he's a lock and I should shut up.

Tolliver is better than Bonner in rebounding, which doesn't really make him stellar, as Hairston is outrebounding Bonner too. The last time someone posted stats, Hairston was out rebounding Tolliver too. He's passed Hairston with his performance in the last two games, but not by much (about 2 per 48 minutes). I didn't see the Indy game, but it looks like he did a good job of chasing down long rebounds off missed jumpers, which indicates he was hustling the way he did last night in the 4th quarter. All that said, Bonner got 17 boards in a game once. It doesn't make him a good rebounder. What we've seen is all we have to go on, so he certainly deserves some credit for it, but if rebounding is why he's here, he doesn't do it very well for his size. What makes people think he's a lock is because he's a shooter, not because he's a defender or a rebounder. He certainly hasn't looked like a defender or a shot blocker. What he does seem to do really well for his size is get steals. He's very often just standing there when someone throws him the ball, and it's happened too often to think it's just coincidence. He gets his hands in on a lot of plays.

Its also unfair to compare him to Bonner because Bonner KNOWS the system. Tolliver...like the other invitees is still learning...and he is STILL outplaying Bonner. I agree the shooting hasn't been there...but it was so noticeable he was trying too hard in the first couple of games that even Duncan said something about it. He has gotten better with every game. He had his best rebounding game in the Indy game and he had his best shooting game statistically last night.

His best shooting game statistically wasn't very good. Again, saying he's better than Bonner doesn't mean anything until you get rid of Bonner. I'm all for Tolliver instead of Bonner, but those two guys aren't competing for a spot on the roster.

And te ally, I don't know that I'd suggest that Bonner "knows" the system.

So what are you saying? Are you saying that you are wanting to play Hairston at PF? He is just big enough to be a SG/SF tweener. I know he plays pretty good man defense and seems pretty fearless...but I have a hard time trusting that against a PF.

Please don't try to tell me that Tolliver is being considered for this roster because of his defense. Tolliver's height doesn't automatically make him capable of playing big guys, and he's anything but a shot blocker. Bonner, Duncan, Mahinmi, Oberto and Thomas are all capable of defending the bigger fours and fives, and Hairston can defend bigger longer players right out of the gate. He'd be a lot easier to cover for on defense IMHO. I don't see how you can't keep two of the Spurs' current bigs on the floor at all times. Besides, if the Spurs really cared about who can defend bigger guys, they'd have kept Watkins. Perhaps Tolliver can be a defensive force. He's certainly got the length for it, but neither you nor I have seen it yet. He simply doesn't play the game like a big guy so far. At this point he's a really tall shooting guard.

Its funny how you would love to keep Farmer...but you completely ignore the deficiencies in his game like you ignore the good in Tollivers. You say you don't want a stepladder out there in November. I would counter with I don't want a streaky 3pt shooter that has been unimpressive finishing at the rim and plays very little defense.

I don't want that either, but you just described Tolliver as much as you did Farmer. I've admitted that there's not a statistical reason to keep Farmer, but he has shown some ability to hit shots when they matter, and he's a proven scorer. I'm not sure about the unimpressive thing. He looked awfully good in the Detroit game. He played quite a few minutes with the starters against Washington and did pretty well. I haven't seen any deficiencies in his game I haven't seen in other guys that the Spurs have brought in, and I just have a gut feeling that he's got an upside. My gut feelings are hit or miss. I thought Ginobili was going to be a great player, but I thought Walt Williams was too.

At the end of the day all of these guys have positives and negatives. Its a crap shoot either way.

I completely agree. It certainly won't break my heart to have Tolliver on the team, but I suspect the Spurs will regret the decision someday. Farmer wasn't on my radar at all, but from the very little I've seen of him, he looks like a guy who's ready to take the next step. Maybe he won't, and maybe he just reminds me so much of Stephen Jackson that I'm getting overly wishful. That's possible, but he won me over so I'm making the case.

I maintain that we need the size over the shooting.

I agree, which is why I wanted the Spurs to keep Watkins. Keeping a guy that shoots from the outside just because he's taller than a guy who can really score the basketball in a year that you are emphasising offense puzzles me. If Bonner is going to be useless, I don't see Tolliver as an Horry replacement. If he makes the team, I'll be hoping I'm wrong all year long.

[Solid D]

Okay, I did the plus/minus for Tolliver for 6 preseason games. It is a +15 in 20.5 mpg.

+/- Totals through six games:
Hairston +44
Farmer +16
Tolliver +15

[tp2021]

Hairston FTW

[angelbelow]

Okay, I did the plus/minus for Tolliver for 6 preseason games. It is a +15 in 20.5 mpg.

+/- Totals through six games:
Hairston +44
Farmer +16
Tolliver +15

hairston!

[Obstructed_View]

Okay, I did the plus/minus for Tolliver for 6 preseason games. It is a +15 in 20.5 mpg.

+/- Totals through six games:
Hairston +44
Farmer +16
Tolliver +15

Funny how defense still matters.

[Manufan909]

I have not done Tolliver's numbers, yet. At this juncture, barring a trade or another signing, I think the battle is between the two wing players. The Spurs really have wanted to add a combo 4/3 this season, if possible.

You think Tolliver could be that? Sorry, I'm confused.

[Ice009]

Spurs can do whatever they want with the last couple of roster spots. From what I've seen, Farmer, Hairston and Tolliver are quite marginal NBA talent.
I wouldn't even be disapointed if they waive all three.

They're all superior to Marcus Williams.

[Ice009]

It's called rotating the ball.

If we have a great shooter, leaves others open or disables a double team.

Exactly. You have Manu, Finley, Mason, Farmer out there it will leave Tim with single coverage inside.

[angelbelow]

Exactly. You have Manu, Finley, Mason, Farmer out there it will leave Tim with single coverage inside.

well.. you can kind of argue that tolliver instead of farmer would give duncan single coverage as well. if tolliver starts hitting his shots at least.

[tp2021]

Exactly. You have Manu, Finley, Mason, Farmer out there it will leave Tim with single coverage inside.

That's like microball.

[Obstructed_View]

well.. you can kind of argue that tolliver instead of farmer would give duncan single coverage as well. if tolliver starts hitting his shots at least.

You could argue that Watkins would give Duncan single coverage if he hit shots, but is it a good idea to?

[timtonymanu]

i accidentally voted for farmer, but i would like tolliver out. we dont need a 3-10 from the field shooter. we already have Finley.

[kobyz]

it's need to be very easy decision, Bonner need to be cut. Bonner is useless, he can't play, he has negative trade value and the spurs could never trade him cause no one will want him.
it will be sad if the spurs will keep Bonner who has no chance to help the Spurs at the expense of other player who has the chance to be good and to contribute.

[angelbelow]

You could argue that Watkins would give Duncan single coverage if he hit shots, but is it a good idea to?

yea you probably could. but that would be a lot harder to argue than saying tolliver could stretch the floor with his shooting like farmer can.

[AusSpursFan]

I have not done Tolliver's numbers, yet. At this juncture, barring a trade or another signing, I think the battle is between the two wing players. The Spurs really have wanted to add a combo 4/3 this season, if possible.

this being the case, why did we ship Gist off to Italy?

[mountainballer]

my point to keep Tolliver is, that he would take Bonner's spot in the big rotation, if Bonner is traded. and we will need Bonner's salary, to somehow get a package for a useful player.

Hairston IMO also fits the Spurs plans long term. Ime's contract expires 2009, he will for sure look for a more than just a one year extension, but then he will cut into the 2010 cap space. Hairston will be able to provide most of what Ime does, but with a much higher upside.
it could even open the option to include Ime in a trade package, some teams will look for a decent defender and as mentioned, his contract is expiring.

[DannyT]

is T-park an option?

[AC#21_TD ERA]

The Spurs made a big mistake by cutting Salim. They should of signed him let him get 100% while Hill plays back up PG. What a shame. Farmer has to make the team he's been the best of the candidates while the brick layer Tolliver has shot the ball for us according to Pop, who can't shoot the ball, is that how bad the spurs need offense if you shoot 23% you make the team. Geez what a joke. Now i know why Vaughn is still on the roster.

[The Truth #6]

is T-park an option?

That's funny.

I think Tolliver already made the team when they chose him over Gist. It's going to be Farmer that gets cut for whatever reason.

[galvatron3000]

Salim has a groin injury so him being able to help the Spurs or any team this season is slim to none. groin injuries require rest. He can't get that trying to make a team participating in training camp, which is why he reinjured himself. He can get some rest the next few months and possibly join a team around Feb. and help out then. Signing him just to ride the bench when you can get young bodies that you can use doesn't make much sense.

[The Truth #6]

Salim has a groin injury so him being able to help the Spurs or any team this season is slim to none. groin injuries require rest. He can't get that trying to make a team participating in training camp, which is why he reinjured himself. He can get some rest the next few months and possibly join a team around Feb. and help out then. Signing him just to ride the bench when you can get young body that you can use doesn't make much sense.

That's probably why they cut him.

[Drom John]

If twelth man, then Hairston.
But since this is 15th man, then Farmer since Hairston has better upside.

[galvatron3000]

That's probably why they cut him.

exactly

[Russ]

Geez, think of the log jam if Splitter had come.