Suns trade turns out the lights by ludden

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The Suns built a bigger lead when Howard was in then what they won by. Howard's departure hurt the Suns. They may not have won had he stayed in, but they had figured out how to do their best against him and had outscored the Magic by nearly 20 points from the second quarter on when Howard left. From that point on, the Suns were outscored.

You can't not play a player, insert him at random and expect him to just get it and play at a high level. He needs minutes. He needs consistency. He needs to play with a specific rotation to learn their ins and outs.

I don't understand why you hold a rookie to such a high standard. It's almost pathetic how much you seemingly despise the kid.

Play him consistently with the same players and let a chemistry develop. He's not a lost cause. He'll improve.

His role on this team was supposed to be the role of a Maxiell or a Millsap, he does not need minutes or consistency to grab rebounds and hustle, that's the whole point of a hustle player, you don't need to give them minutes to get production, they are supposed to give 110% in whatever time you give them. I don't know how I'm holding him to high standards, I'm not saying he should drop 20 a night, I'm saying he should be able to do what Millsap or Maxiell did their rookie year since Kerr used a top 15 pick on him mainly because he was the most "NBA ready" player available.

[JMarkJohns]

OK, Shaq would be able to body Howard up a lot more effectively than Lopez, and Lopez only saw a healthy Howard for half the game. If Howard is able to finish the game, Suns lose easily. He also didn't really "body up" Howard, Howard was on pace for a gigantic night before his injury. 7 rebounds at half time.

I don't think rebounding is unimportant. I know it's very important. However, I also know the strengths of this team. Shaq is a square peg to the Nash/Richardson/Barnes/Amare hole. Lopez fits better with that unit. If given time, he could really develop nicely running alongside Amare and Nash.

Since you like to break down statisics to a per-40 average, Dwight typically averages 15.5 per 40 minutes. Last night, vs. this inferior rebounding unit of Lopez and Amare, he was on pace to average just 12.5 per.

You really like to speak in absolutes where no absolute was a guarantee. Howard actually had a -15 differential on the evening and the Suns were up, despite his monstrous numbers to that point, when he left.

We are both right on a few things. You are correct that Shaq is the better option vs. bigger teams or when half-court offense would be of more benefit. I am correct in saying that if they choose to run, and wish to do so with the biggest lineup possible, then Lopez, not Shaq is the best fit.

However, your claims of Lopez's suckdom are grossly overstated. You completely dismiss a player who's been given very little time to prove himself this season, but has done well at times when he has been given the chance.

It may not be an easy learning process, and I'm not saying to play him 40 minutes a night, but in their running lineups, Lopez for 20 is better than Shaq for 20. he won't get in the way, he won't slow things down, he won't take shots... He'll play hard, he'll body-up, he'll tip rebounds to spark transition opportunites and he'll play good help defense.

Shaq coming off the bench would dominate just about every second unit in the League.

1. Nash, Richardson, Barnes, Amare, Lopez
- Maximizes transition skills and athleticism without giving up on defense and rebounding.

2. Nash, Barbosa, Richardson, Barnes, Amare
- Maxmizes transition skills and athleticism, but gives up defense and rebounding.

3. Nash, Richardson, Hill, Barnes, Amare
- Gets a lot out of their transition skills and athleticism, keeps a semblence of perimeter defense through Hill's smarts and Barnes and Richardson's athleticism, but is vulnerable on the boards, still

4. Nash, Richardson, Barnes, Amare, Shaq
- Limits the teams ability to maximize its transition skills. Does spread the floor for Shaq, better, though. Some defense, good rebounding.

5. Nash, Richardson, Hill, Amare, Shaq
- Limits the team's ability to maximize its transition skills, limits the ability to spread the floor. Slightly better defense and rebounding.

Those are the realistic starting lineup options. The two best are #1, #3 and #4... However, if you want to play to the greatest number of strengths, then it has to be #1.

It doesn't have to be for long stretches, but for roughly 8-to-10 minutes a half, I think it would be a great idea to get the most out of the transition potential.

[JMarkJohns]

His role on this team was supposed to be the role of a Maxiell or a Millsap, he does not need minutes or consistency to grab rebounds and hustle, that's the whole point of a hustle player, you don't need to give them minutes to get production, they are supposed to give 110% in whatever time you give them. I don't know how I'm holding him to high standards, I'm not saying he should drop 20 a night, I'm saying he should be able to do what Millsap or Maxiell did their rookie year since Kerr used a top 15 pick on him mainly because he was the most "NBA ready" player available.

Wrong. He needs to learn spots on the floor. He needs to discover how to play with certain lineups and vs. specific oppositions.

Also, you are not giving credit to his tap-backs to wings. His rebounding is skewed because of that. Probably by two or three a game.

And your boy Maxiell averaged just 4 defensive rebounds and 7 total in his rookie year. Lopez is at 3 defensive and 6 total.

Hardly enough of a difference to write off the kid the way you have.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Saying Shaq slows down their unit is completely false. By your thought process, the Lakers should have started Kurt Rambis over Kareem because Kareem can't run. Fast breaks don't need all 5 players, and in order to get a fast break opportunity you need to have gotten the defensive rebound. I also don't care what Howard did, he was injured half the time he stayed in the game, the 1st quarter was the only indication of when they played a healthy Howard.

"he won't slow things down, he won't take shots... He'll play hard, he'll body-up, he'll tip rebounds to spark transition opportunites and he'll play good help defense."

Shaq being slow doesn't mean it makes the other 4 players slow, and I don't get where you get the idea Lopez is such a speedster. If anything Lopez will slow them down because they need to rebound by committee when Lopez is at center because he can't be relied on to get the rebound himself.

I find it funny you say he'll body up, if he was able to body up he wouldn't be such an inefficient rebounder. This tip rebound concept you seem to be getting an erection over is dumb. Tipping rebounds doesn't initiate fast breaks, when someone is forced to tip a rebound to a teammate it's because they weren't in position to secure the rebound them self. Also tipped rebounds go to the opposing team half the time. Shaq can get the rebound and make the outlet pass, Lopez can do neither. Mike D'antoni even said the Suns became a better fast break team with Shaq because he can initiate fast breaks.

What the is good "help defense"? He's 7 feet tall and he can block someone who's 6'6"? Cool, Shaq can do that as well, Shaq can control the paint and not give up offensive rebounds left and right.

Just because a team runs an up tempo offense, doesn't mean they can't have a legit center on the floor. Getting the stop should be a sure thing before the fast break is initiated, if a team is sacrificing defensive rebounds to get a few more fast break chances, they need to adjust.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Wrong. He needs to learn spots on the floor. He needs to discover how to play with certain lineups and vs. specific oppositions.

Also, you are not giving credit to his tap-backs to wings. His rebounding is skewed because of that. Probably by two or three a game.

And your boy Maxiell averaged just 4 defensive rebounds and 7 total in his rookie year. Lopez is at 3 defensive and 6 total.

Hardly enough of a difference to write off the kid the way you have.

I'm not giving credit to his tap backs to wings and I find it incredibly re ed that you think tapping a rebound out because you weren't in position to get it yourself is the same thing as getting a rebound.

And you just walked into a trap with the Maxiell comparison. Maxiell played in 26 games and averaged 6 minutes a game among those games, so it's not like people were saying start Maxiell, he was for the most part a bench warmer, just like Robin should be until he adds strength.

[Spurs Brazil]

Report: Bell Asked For Trade

Dec 13, 2008 3:42 PM EST
Phoenix guard Raja Bell asked for a trade two weeks ago, according to a KTAR-AM report that was confirmed by two team sources.

"I wish them the best of luck. That part of my life is over," Bell said when reached for comment on Friday.

It has also been revealed that Bell had inquired about an extension this summer with two years left on his deal.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wir...ked_for_trade/

[JMarkJohns]

It's painfully obvious that no common ground is going to be reached. I no longer care since I doubt Porter will attempt my rotations, content to allow a plodding Shaq disrupt the fastbreak potential of the first string athletes, content to allow Shaq to clog the lane and steal touches from Nash, Richardson and Amare and keep them out of their element.

It's nice to see a Suns fan passionate about the team, even if its in his criticism of a 20-year old prospect.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's not my criticism of a 20 year old, I'm not saying cut him or trade him, I'm saying do with him what the Spurs did with Oberto, who was almost 30 when he was a rookie, and turn him into an NBA player who can use something other than height to get rebounds. Oberto got little to no PT his rookie year, the next year, he was the starter on a le team.

I also think you're buying into this clogging the lane thing too much, Shaq is slowing the team down and clogging the lane because Porter should have been starting Hill and they didn't have a legit 2-guard, fortunately I said they didn't since they have one now. Barnes has been great when he is playing the right role, but Shaq was killing the offense only when Barnes and Bell were starting and the defense could clog the lane on Shaq and rotate on those two without worrying about penetration.

Look at the games when both and Hill and Shaq start and you'll see how much better the turnovers and offense is, they are undefeated when both of them start by the way.

Just look at last year, Shaq was extremely impressive when the Suns had a healthy Grant Hill, when Hill's body fell apart in the playoffs, SA had no problem stopping him. Trust me when I say this you will see a different Shaq now that J-Rich and Hill are starting. Shaq actually creates space with the right personnel on the floor.

[JMarkJohns]

Shaq and Hill are halfcourt players whle Nash, Amare and Richardson are fullcourt. Hill can play both, but not for long stretches and hopefully not for many minutes due to his fragile nature.

I hope you're right. I'm not saying the Suns can't get better starting Hill and Shaq. But to me, skills fit better with the lineups I proposed. Nash, Richardson, Barnes, Amare Lopez with Dragic (or a vet PG), Barbosa, Hill, Dudley and Shaq off the bench. Hill can run point, taking pressure off Dragic and Barbosa and Shaq can dominate. Barbosa is a bit out of place, but he's a good spot-up shooter, so he can spread the floor. Dudley can hit from outside as well.

I'm not saying these should be played excludively, but they should be given a shot and played for large stretches at a time. Each unit complements the other, in my opinion, without placing limitations, skills-wise or physical upon the others of differing skillset.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I think Barnes is best suited as an off the bench player, he's got the toughness and length the be a Posey type player, question is does he have the discipline and intelligence.

I know you said they need Robin's help defense, but the truth is they aren't legit contenders until Nash Richardson and Amare all commit to defense and take pride in it. I know Nash will never be Chris Paul, but there is no reason he can't fight through screens better or be more disciplined. Just because he isn't a big guy doesn't mean he gets to roam around and play defense like a 5 year old with A.D.H.D., Jason Williams did his job on defense when he was on Miami in 2006 and he's just as physically ungifted as Nash is.

The problem is they don't know how to play good defense. They seem to think they can hold the opposing team to 0 sometimes. Their goal should be forcing the other team to take a low percentage shot, but the way they play defense they try too hard to block the shot or force the turnover. You need to scout the other team and create a plan as to what limits the offense, and the Suns simply don't do that.

When you're playing the Hornets, you need to either let Chris Paul score or let Chris Paul pass, the Suns think they can stop both, and consequently Chris Paul does both. That's an example.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

It's painfully obvious that no common ground is going to be reached. I no longer care since I doubt Porter will attempt my rotations, content to allow a plodding Shaq disrupt the fastbreak potential of the first string athletes, content to allow Shaq to clog the lane and steal touches from Nash, Richardson and Amare and keep them out of their element.

It's nice to see a Suns fan passionate about the team, even if its in his criticism of a 20-year old prospect.

Shaq doesn't disrupt fast break opportunities, he didn't last year when they had a more definitive defensive strategy. What disrupts fast break opportunities is being unable to get defensive rebounds AND being unable to force turnovers. When the Suns had Marion last year, they got fast break chances by forcing turnovers, getting steals and blocks, and having a guy who can suck down lose balls (awkward). After they got Shaq, D'antoni told Shaq and Amare to guard their man, get the defensive rebound and only play help D if it didn't compromise the ability to get the rebound, even if it meant conceding a basket. Shaq is one of the most dangerous outlet passing big men contrary to what you may think and can initiate fast breaks as well as anyone. This strategy limited 2nd chance points from the other team and initiated fast breaks, but the other team's FG% went way up. It was a trade off, just like Popovich trades the ability to defend Amare for the ability to completely shut down three point shooters.

The fast break chances are down this year because even though you may think Porter is a good defensive coach, he has them playing help defense when they don't have proper athleticism and energy from their PF and C, which means they try to force turnovers but can't, and in addition give up more offensive boards. If you think Lopez is gonna solve this problem you're kidding yourself. If you aren't forcing turnovers and you aren't getting defensive rebounds, you're not gonna get fast break chances. It's that simple. Shaq has nothing to do with it. It's not like playing a small lineup that sucks at rebounding means fast break opportunities just happen.

[kcplayboi_26]

Suns will be alright just watch and see what happens. Obviously its gonna take time for everything to click, id rather have them play like this then feburary

[K-State Spur]

Saying Shaq slows down their unit is completely false.

Not really. You are correct that he doesn't necessarily prevent fast breaks, but he does clog up the offense in a couple of ways.

First, his very presence still commands double teams, which gives you an advantage in the halfcourt, which means that (once the fast break has been prevented) you want to wait for him to get set before initiating the offense.

Second, he clogs the lane offensively which slows down penetration.

So, in a way, you're both right. He can lead to more fast breaks and slow down the offense at the same time.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Suns will be alright just watch and see what happens. Obviously its gonna take time for everything to click, id rather have them play like this then feburary

I know they'll be alright, I'm saying they aren't gonna contend unless Nash and Amare stop worrying able how much "fun" they're having and worry more about what it takes to win. Getting a steal or a block is "fun", limiting ball movement and forcing the other team to hurry because of time left on the shot clock isn't "fun" but it's championship basketball.

[lurker]

Report: Bell Asked For Trade

Dec 13, 2008 3:42 PM EST
Phoenix guard Raja Bell asked for a trade two weeks ago, according to a KTAR-AM report that was confirmed by two team sources.

"I wish them the best of luck. That part of my life is over," Bell said when reached for comment on Friday.

It has also been revealed that Bell had inquired about an extension this summer with two years left on his deal.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wir...ked_for_trade/

If Raja asked for a trade, I wonder why he didn't tell Nash. Kinda ty to just let him be blindsided about it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Not really. You are correct that he doesn't necessarily prevent fast breaks, but he does clog up the offense in a couple of ways.

First, his very presence still commands double teams, which gives you an advantage in the halfcourt, which means that (once the fast break has been prevented) you want to wait for him to get set before initiating the offense.

Second, he clogs the lane offensively which slows down penetration.

So, in a way, you're both right. He can lead to more fast breaks and slow down the offense at the same time.

Exactly. If they aren't able to score quickly, Shaq is the perfect insurance policy to initiate the half court offense.

He doesn't slow down penetration, the reason so many people say that is because before they got J-Rich and when Porter inexplicably started Barnes over Hill, they were a horrible team at half court penetration. The Suns are undefeated this year when both Hill and Shaq start, go check that if you don't believe me. Shaq clogs the lane when he's the only half court threat on the floor. Look at how amazing he's been when Hill starts and Shaq has someone who can deliver him an entry pass at the proper spot and angle and has a penetrator in Hill who can draw defenders away from Shaq. When Wade was out early last year Miami had the same problem because teams could just pack it in on Shaq.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

If Raja asked for a trade, I wonder why he didn't tell Nash. Kinda ty to just let him be blindsided about it.

He probably did tell Nash, Nash just likes to whine about everything and make himself look like the victim. I went from idolizing this guy to losing all the respect I've had for him because of this season. This concept he has where he thinks just because he's good at offense doesn't mean he has to play intelligent or energetic defense is frustrating. If Tim Duncan thought this way the Spurs wouldn't have won a single ring.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

The players who clog the lane are guys like Erica Dampier and Robin Lopez, or extremely big players who rebound horribly for their size and have no offensive skill other than wide open interior shots.

[kcplayboi_26]

I know they'll be alright, I'm saying they aren't gonna contend unless Nash and Amare stop worrying able how much "fun" they're having and worry more about what it takes to win. Getting a steal or a block is "fun", limiting ball movement and forcing the other team to hurry because of time left on the shot clock isn't "fun" but it's championship basketball.

thats tru

[K-State Spur]

He doesn't slow down penetration, the reason so many people say that is because before they got J-Rich and when Porter inexplicably started Barnes over Hill, they were a horrible team at half court penetration.

By definition, a big man who does most of his work in the paint will slow penetration. It's not Shaq's fault specifically - but his presence keeps the opponent's best interior defender in the general vicinity of the rim. That's why it's so important to the Spurs that Duncan has a reliable mid-range game, it forces the opponents to respect him out to 15-17 feet away from the rim, leaving room for Parker and Ginobili to penetrate.

That doesn't mean that the Suns still can't get to the rim with Shaq in the game (Kobe and Wade did) - it's just more difficult than in the floor were spread with shooters. Of course, you can argue that Shaq more than makes up for that in other areas.

[lurker]

He probably did tell Nash, Nash just likes to whine about everything and make himself look like the victim. I went from idolizing this guy to losing all the respect I've had for him because of this season. This concept he has where he thinks just because he's good at offense doesn't mean he has to play intelligent or energetic defense is frustrating. If Tim Duncan thought this way the Spurs wouldn't have won a single ring.

I don't think Steve "likes to whine." He's usually the one that tries to stay positive. It's just getting harder to do that now with this team. He seemed genuinely upset and surprised by the trade to me.


As for the defense issue, it's hard to play energetic defense when your energy is sucked dry on offense. Steve has talked before about wishing he had more energy left so that he could improve his defense. If the Suns had been able to find a back-up that wasn't useless, he wouldn't be so exhausted all the time.

[ploto]

“I have a hard time committing to this as a business,” Nash added. “I take this personally, and I take my career home with me. I care about my teammates. When you lose two of your best friends, it’s hard.”

One thing people may not know about Steve is that he has always been big on players spending time together personally and away from basketball. He believes that if all you ever do is get to know these guys basketball-wise that you miss half of what it means to have an NBA career. He cares about these men and that is nice.

[ducks]

I don't think Steve "likes to whine." He's usually the one that tries to stay positive. It's just getting harder to do that now with this team. He seemed genuinely upset and surprised by the trade to me.


As for the defense issue, it's hard to play energetic defense when your energy is sucked dry on offense. Steve has talked before about wishing he had more energy left so that he could improve his defense. If the Suns had been able to find a back-up that wasn't useless, he wouldn't be so exhausted all the time.

bell asked for the trade
if bell wanted out nash should have shut his mouth up about him geting traded

or did he think he could get porter fired and make bell happy again

[Bob Lanier]

What the is good "help defense"?

[howbouthemspurs]

the suns..... right in the ear.