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spot on
not gonna argue on that
Manu will be a HOFer thanks to his impressive international résumé + his pretty good NBA achievements (2005 big time!)
But all in all, as much as i love the guy, the intrinsic BB skills of Manu Ginobili the player are not HOF material
spot on
not gonna argue on that
Why? Because Manu has had a far more succesful basketball career, it's not even close.
And BTW, Miller having better volume stats than Manu doesn't mean he's the better basketball player. You have to consider that Manu got to the league a little late and he played his whole career alongside the best PF of all time.
Hall Of Fame Monitor Leaders
(Likely HOFer > 135)
[these ratings do not consider college, Olympic or international ball]
Tim Duncan 441
David Robinson 289
George Gervin 213
Reggie Miller 130
Tony Parker 97
Manu Ginobili < 95
http://www.databasebasketball.com/le...leadershof.htm
HOF Monitor Scores of current or not yet eligible players
1. Karl Malone 501 (now in)
2. Tim Duncan 441
3. Shaquille O'neal 366
4. Kobe Bryant 331
5. Steve Nash 309
6. Kevin Garnett 294
7. Dirk Nowitzki 262
8. Allen Iverson 249
9. LeBron James 245
10. Jason Kidd 216
11. Scottie Pippen 189 (now in)
12. Gary Payton 173
13. Chris Webber 139
14. Tracy McGrady 136
HOF Monitor Scores of eligible players not in the HOF
1. Paul Westphal 143
2. Artis Gilmore 140
3. Spencer Haywood 138
4. Bernard King 135
Hall of Famers < 135
64. Sam Jones 135*
65. Gail Goodrich 134*
69. Hal Greer 130*
70. Lenny Wilkens 129*
71. Alex English 129*
73. David Thompson 128*
74. Nate Thurmond 128*
75. Bailey Howell 127*
76. Ed Macauley 127*
77. Adrian Dantley 126*
78. Earl Monroe 125*
83. Bob Davies 123*
89. Dan Issel 121*
note - Dennis Johnson is now in.
This list is stupid. How is Duncan with doubts ? How Vince Carter is 0,85 ? He has done . Bosh, Stoudemire, Paul, Anthony ahead of Nash.. All of them done .
The outcry is that Miller didn't even make it to the final selection (on which their is a vote). But he was NEVER supposed to be first ballot. First ballot induction is for people like Jordan, Robinson, Duncan, Bryant. NOT for guys like Miller.
Actually ask around yourself and you will find people ready to debate if Miller should be in the HOF at all (no defense, no rebounding, can't create his own shot, etc.) whereas you won't find one person in their own mind, even the worst Lakers or Spurs homer, who would tell you that Duncan or Bryant aren't supposed to be first ballots.
It is the basketball HoF, not the NBA HoF, I understand totally where people are coming from talking about the international game.
I think Manu is a lock for the HoF as well, because of his entire body of work.
Parker remains to be seen.
As for Miller I think he is equally as deserving as Manu.
HoF voters are rather inconsistent bunch when they vote, kind like the voters for the Rock-and-Roll HoF. They also will make you scratch your head with their voting.
Last edited by cherylsteele; 03-06-2011 at 04:17 PM.
Eh...I wouldn't say he pushed the Bulls to the limit in '98. The Pacers collectively as a team did. Reggie had nice talent around him that could make up for the flaws in his game. He hit a game winner in Game 4. After that he wasn't really a factor the rest of the series. Game 5 the Pacers were blown out. Game 6 Smits carried them when Miller couldn't hit jack. In Game 7 I forgot Reggie was even on the floor in the 2nd half. He couldn't even get a shot off. Jordan and Pippen were off their games in Game 7 as well but were they truly shut down? No, because they played spectacular defense and also ended up with 10 offensive boards between them and that's where the Bulls won the game...dominating the boards for 2nd shots. You know how many rebounds Reggie had in a must-win Game 7? Zero. And it's been that way his entire career. If he's not scoring he's worthless. And I don't consider a player like that worthy of the HOF. Sure as not first ballot. He should be on the 20 year waiting list.
Manu is already in.
Parker is already in, but he might have to wait 25 years if he does not add to his resume. But I think TP gets #4 this year and is in.
Ironic, since all you've done in this entire thread is whine like a little .
in baby!!! I explained Milller's merits in this thread already. All you want to talk about is other factors that get Manu in but keep better players than Manu out.. I was pretty clear. Gilmore was a great ABA And NBA player yet he never gets in and Manu should be in because he played overseas and in the NBA. Oh Reggie won a gold medal but that doesn't really count like Manu's does. Duncan didn't win a gold medal, i guess his HOF chances just went down..I get there are loopholes.. Just seems to me there needs to be changes..
There are a number of good reasons to put him in the hall, as you mentioned, but there are legitimate reasons people might not vote for him. His career average isn't that great (3rd lowest of top 30 scorers all-time), he was an extremely one-dimensional player (Payton and Parrish were great defenders), he shot a lot of threes per game, and didn't make that many (Dennis Scott and Mike Miller have made more threes per game in their careers). He scored a lot of points, but he played a lot of games (only Malone and Kareem played more for top scorers), and he only averaged 3 rebounds and 3 assists per game for his career.
In my opinion, it's a travesty that Reggie didn't at least make the final list, but the fact remains that Manu is a mortal lock. Sorry you can't deal with that reality or separate the two issues. You should have a problem with the voters, not with Manu. Seriously, I'm not sure how ting on one deserving player seems to make you feel better about another not getting in.
I remember this formula on HOF probabilty being discussed here on Spurstalk long time ago.
There's things where mathematical formulas don't quite fit and this is one of them for sure.
in Gilmore not being in the HOF is a travesty!!
Drazen was one of the first Euro impact players and got many sympathy votes. The bar has been raised since his induction with the influx of more foreign players.
Manu is not as much of a lock as most Spur fans think.
Miller was better than Manu.True.No way better but better.He was the franchise player of one of the best teams of the East in the 90's. Manu played along TP and the best PF of all-time,surely top10 in the NBA history.
But HOF is not about who was the best player.
Miller will be a HOF and I'm pretty sure Manu will be a HOF too
The thing is that the HOF is not some kind of leader board about ranking the best players. It is not the Hall of Stats or the Hall of the Best Players. It is the Hall of FAME. Its more about being iconic than it is about being dominant.
That said, Reggie fits the bill and I expect him to make it- not for his pts scored or seasons played, but for being clutch and a prolific shooter. His NBA career is definitely superior to Manu's, and as a player I would consider him a little better too. But the difference between reggie's olympic gold and manu's is simple: Manu's is the first (and only thus far) olympic gold won against NBA players. not to mention, he was the star of the first team to defeat a US national team composed of NBA players that had won 52-54 (?) consecutive games. coincidentally, that US national team that lost? lost at canseco field house, home of its leader, reggie miller
Like who? Give me some examples of newer Euros/foreigners who have raised the bar beyond Manu.
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