NBA: Pippen or LeBron?

[Phillip]

This can't be a serious post...

Pippen was SIX years out of his prime when he went to Houston. Do you think LeBron will post stats like he does when he's 36-37?

I have no problem with people voting LeBron.. he's the favorite in this poll... but dumbass comments like these... it's like "let me vote for LeBron even though I've never actually seen Pippen play irl"

and btw, idiotzone, he averaged 15, 6, and 6 in Houston.

actually, he was 33 when he played in Houston. Not quite in his prime, but not fully out of it.

[AchillesHeel]

Not to mention the list of people who had fantastic scoring playoff series against Pippen and the Bulls. Apparently he's too stupid to read though.

Seriously? You did nothing to retort the facts I posted. Typical beta behavior.

You provided 0 examples to back up your claims. Every elite offensive player's stats dipped going up against Chicago in the playoffs: Isiah shot 40% in 90 and 91 in against CHI with Pippen guarding him every game, Drexler shot 40% against Scottie in the Finals, Kevin Johnson put up a whopping 17 points and 6.5 assists a game on 42% shooting in the 93 Finals

Only wing that did get points in was Penny Hardaway in 96, averaged 25 ppg on 46% shooting in the playoffs against Chicago, but the Magic lost anyways

Pippen took the other team's best wing player and he locked them down

I ain't gonna break it all down, but here's some great video footage for you to study, my son:



look at him deny post entry passes to guys like Ewing and Barkley, look at the basketball IQ on those plays, the ability to anticipate where the ball is going...you are bat crazy if you think Pippen is overrated on the defensive end

Pippen was defending guys like Ewing,Malone and Barkley in the post ALL THE TIME, you don't see Lebron doing that for long strethces, Lebron is notorious for guarding PGs that are 5-6 inches smaller than him and 190-210 pounds, Pippen took on guys that were bigger than him, and more often that none he was successful at it.


Watch the footage, study Pippen's all-around game before you come at me with 0 examples of how he's overrated or how he came up short...Ridiculous.

Pippen was an elite defender both in the post and on the perimeter, he could work on the big guys as well as on any wing in the league.

[thunderup]

This thread will be funny in 2-3 years when LeRoid's body is desensitizing to the PED's and his game will mirror D-whistle's. He'll look less explosive and will have to rely on skill rather than athleticism, something he'll struggle with and one of the reasons he'll never be as great as Jordan. His game will be worse than Kirby's at the moment.

@ Lebron's cup assistant Phillip cementing himself as one of the biggest Lebron homers on the site with take after take

[spurraider21]

i'll take the guy that has led a team to championships. Scottie was spectacular, and on this forum, under-appreciated, but LeBron has put his teams on his back in ways Pippen just couldn't

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

actually, he was 33 when he played in Houston. Not quite in his prime, but not fully out of it.

LOL. I know for a fact you didn't watch Pippen play now.

Pippen was out of his prime the year or before the year that MJ left. Seriously? He was way out of his prime after the six peat... much less Houston.. gtfo

[Killakobe81]

Pippen is on the All-Overrated team on the Internet, tbh..he was a top 5 player in the league for maybe 1 season, 2 max..he had minimal offensive responsibility compared to other star players, while playing in a great and historic system in a weak era of basketball..I find it comical that fans always cite his elite defense, but ignore the fact that he was allowed to use most of his energy on that end due to lack of offensive responsibility, tbh..

Also, as CN pointed out, Pippen was a diva that didn't know how to handle being a #1 option, he benefited greatly from the presence of Phil Jackson and Dad Killer..

As for Lebron's defense, unlike Pippen, he does his defensive damage as an anchor while completely carrying his team on the offensive end, which has only been done by players like Hakeem, Duncan, etc..not to mention the Heat have average defensive talent, at best..

FYI, since joining Miami, in addition to being an anchor, Lebron shut down Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce and Luol Deng for an entire series..he shut down Tony Parker in the pivotal games 6 and 7, shut down Derrick Rose in virtually every 4th quarter of the 2011 series, and he annihilated Paul George in game 7, the only game where he covered him exclusively..

The only player that Lebron wasn't able to stop was Durant, but he didn't guard him for most of the series anyways, deferring to Battier to save energy..Dominos is by far the 2nd best player in the league, there's no shame in allowing him to score, tbh..

All of this while exerting a ton of energy on the offensive end with minimal support, tbh..it amazes me that NBA fans constantly ignore a player's responsibilities on the court..Pippen would not be nearly as great on defense if he actually had to carry a team on offense, obviously..

Some goods as always and Pipp is a bit overrated on here obviously ...
Lebron gets compared to Kobe and MJ ...
Pippen not so much ...
But you overrating Lebron just a bit ... he is amazing. But Battier does some of the heavy lifting on defense and at times even though he is the better defender they leave Wade on top SG even though James is the better defender. They dont always switch Lebron on those guys which to me is similar to MJ. The Heat has great help defenders same as Bulls. Lebron is a potential GOAT but I still think 1 on 1 DEFENSIVELY Pippen is better. Sure all of what you said about responsibilities is true but we can only go by what we see.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

This thread will be funny in 2-3 years when LeRoid's body is desensitizing to the PED's and his game will mirror D-whistle's. He'll look less explosive and will have to rely on skill rather than athleticism, something he'll struggle with and one of the reasons he'll never be as great as Jordan. His game will be worse than Kirby's at the moment.

@ Lebron's cup assistant Phillip cementing himself as one of the biggest Lebron homers on the site with take after take

This dude just got caught. "Pippen wasn't out of his prime in Houston". - LOL GTFO

Le cup fans will say ANYTHING to solidify LeBron. I'm willing to say that Pippen would shut him down in a series. If Kawhi Leonard can do it, Pippen can.

[Phillip]

Pippen averaged better stats than LeBron rebounding and assist-wise for the majority of his career.

Incorrect. Check the stats before making stuff up.

Pippen is not overrated, and if anything is underrated.

He was a HUGE part of the six les, and MJ wouldn't have won six, maybe not any without him.

I fully agree with this.

[Phillip]

Seriously? You did nothing to retort the facts I posted. Typical beta behavior.

You provided 0 examples to back up your claims. Every elite offensive player's stats dipped going up against Chicago in the playoffs: Isiah shot 40% in 90 and 91 in against CHI with Pippen guarding him every game, Drexler shot 40% against Scottie in the Finals, Kevin Johnson put up a whopping 17 points and 6.5 assists a game on 42% shooting in the 93 Finals

Only wing that did get points in was Penny Hardaway in 96, averaged 25 ppg on 46% shooting in the playoffs against Chicago, but the Magic lost anyways

Pippen took the other team's best wing player and he locked them down

I ain't gonna break it all down, but here's some great video footage for you to study, my son:



look at him deny post entry passes to guys like Ewing and Barkley, look at the basketball IQ on those plays, the ability to anticipate where the ball is going...you are bat crazy if you think Pippen is overrated on the defensive end

Pippen was defending guys like Ewing,Malone and Barkley in the post ALL THE TIME, you don't see Lebron doing that for long strethces, Lebron is notorious for guarding PGs that are 5-6 inches smaller than him and 190-210 pounds, Pippen took on guys that were bigger than him, and more often that none he was successful at it.


Watch the footage, study Pippen's all-around game before you come at me with 0 examples of how he's overrated or how he came up short...Ridiculous.

Pippen was an elite defender both in the post and on the perimeter, he could work on the big guys as well as on any wing in the league.

tl;dr

not worth it to read a load of horse

[AchillesHeel]

This thread will be funny in 2-3 years when LeRoid's body is desensitizing to the PED's and his game will mirror D-whistle's. He'll look less explosive and will have to rely on skill rather than athleticism, something he'll struggle with and one of the reasons he'll never be as great as Jordan. His game will be worse than Kirby's at the moment.

@ Lebron's cup assistant Phillip cementing himself as one of the biggest Lebron homers on the site with take after take

Seriously, this tried to compare Lebron's 2011 Finals choke job to "the Jordan rules". and how Lebron was triple-teamed and didn't miss wide open shots to cost his team the le

[LkrFan]

In no way have I done such a thing. The very first thing I said in the thread was "Pippen was great and underappreciated"



I just posted plenty of proof that he didn't always "lock down" the oppositions best threat. I agree he always took on the tougher defensive assignments, is probably the most versatile defender ever, and one of the greatest defenders ever. I NEVER said otherwise. I just said that since he wasn't relied on to be the scoring option that guys like MJ or Lebron were/are, he could focus more of his energy on that end of the court. But MJ and Lebron both have proved throughout their careers, that when its the final 3-5 minutes of a close game, they immediately call off whomever is defending the top wing scorer of the opposing team, take them on themselves, and generally did/does a very good job defending them.



And he did a wonderful job leading that team. No question about it. With MJ gone, it allowed some of their more talented players to shine more, like Horace Grant (a highly underrated and under-appreciated player during his time, very much like Pippen) and BJ Armstrong, while they also made some very good offensive additions to the team with Kukoc and Kerr.



No one is holding it against Pippen. The only thing people are holding against Pippen in this discussion, is the simple fact that LeBron James is an unquestionably superior basketball player.

And if Lebron did play with MJ, and was his second option, I fully believe that he would be better than Pippen in nearly every way that Pippen was great. About the only thing Pippen was superior at, was having more refined post moves.

Admission: my post was strictly concerning the bolded word "unquestionably" in your post I quoted. I need to go back and read your other posts - it appears we mostly agree about these two players.

Where I still disagree with you on is about defense, leadership, and now that you mentioned it: post game. Pip is a far superior player in these areas. I know Bron is a better scorer, but I've seen Pip score 40+ in the '80s (the toughest era IMO) - so if Pip played in today's era, I could see him avg 25ppg to go with about 7rebs, and 7apg. He'd be Paul George on steroids. Today's rules have been implemented to speed the game up and manufacture superstars (like Wade and his patent pending FTAs). Prime MJ would avg 40+ppg in today's era of no hand checking. , Prime Kobe average 35.4 in '06 so I'd say in his prime he'd damn near average 40 as well in today's era.

/Rambling Over

i agree with 100% about him being underappreciated. There isn't a SF in NBA history that I'd take over him. That includes my man Worthy and Bird. Sure these two are superior offensively, but there are two sides of the court. Pip runs circles around them on the defensive end.

i was so hoping Dr. Buss would have picked him up in '99 as a FA - instead of him going to Rockets and Blazers. A big 3 of Shaq, Kobe, and Pip would have won about 5 straight rangs. But it wasn't meant to be .

[AchillesHeel]

tl;dr

not worth it to read a load of horse

Obviously you have nothing to respond with.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

tl;dr

not worth it to read a load of horse

Why it's impossible to debate with CN or Philip. Anything to go against LeBron's legacy is either filled with irrelevant crap or "Two rangz". They don't even acknowledge that LeBron the playoffs away for the first 5.75 games of this years finals.

[Phillip]

Seriously, this tried to compare Lebron's 2011 Finals choke job to "the Jordan rules". and how Lebron was triple-teamed and didn't miss wide open shots to cost his team the le

changing the thread from being whether to build a team around Pippen or Lebron, into an "i hate lebron he beat my spurs " thread

[AchillesHeel]

Admission: my post was strictly concerning the bolded word "unquestionably" in your post I quoted. I need to go back and read your other posts - it appears we mostly agree about these two players.

Where I still disagree with you on is about defense, leadership, and now that you mentioned it: post game. Pip is a far superior player in these areas. I know Bron is a better scorer, but I've seen Pip score 40+ in the '80s (the toughest era IMO) - so if Pip played in today's era, I could see him avg 25ppg to go with about 7rebs, and 7apg. He'd be Paul George on steroids. Today's rules have been implemented to speed the game up and manufacture superstars (like Wade and his patent pending FTAs). Prime MJ would avg 40+ppg in today's era of no hand checking. , Prime Kobe average 35.4 in '06 so I'd say in his prime he'd damn near average 40 as well in today's era.

/Rambling Over

i agree with 100% about him being underappreciated. There isn't a SF in NBA history that I'd take over him. That includes my man Worthy and Bird. Sure these two are superior offensively, but there are two sides of the court. Pip runs circles around them on the defensive end.

i was so hoping Dr. Buss would have picked him up in '99 as a FA - instead of him going to Rockets and Blazers. A big 3 of Shaq, Kobe, and Pip would have won about 5 straight rangs. But it wasn't meant to be .

Solid take from a lakerfan.

[AchillesHeel]

changing the thread from being whether to build a team around Pippen or Lebron, into an "i hate lebron he beat my spurs " thread

You were the one to compare Lebron to MJ in the first place.

I have nothing against Lebron and the Heat winning the 2013 Finals, Pop and Manu beat the Spurs in Game 6.

[Phillip]

Why it's impossible to debate with CN or Philip. Anything to go against LeBron's legacy is either filled with irrelevant crap or "Two rangz". They don't even acknowledge that LeBron the playoffs away for the first 5.75 games of this years finals.

Actually, I've said plenty of times on the forum that Lebron didn't play a good series in the 2011 finals, and was inconsistent early on in the 2013 finals.

Just because I state facts that teams gameplanned for him extremely well in those series that helped lead to some of his struggles, doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge his shortcomings.

[thunderup]

Why it's impossible to debate with CN or Philip. Anything to go against LeBron's legacy is either filled with irrelevant crap or "Two rangz". They don't even acknowledge that LeBron the playoffs away for the first 5.75 games of this years finals.

If I remember correctly, Phillip was the poster who also tried downgrading Kawhi's ability last year by comparing him to Battier or some other player with similar ability. Can't remember which one he choose. He's one of the worst posters on this site and its not even close.

[Phillip]

Admission: my post was strictly concerning the bolded word "unquestionably" in your post I quoted. I need to go back and read your other posts - it appears we mostly agree about these two players.

Where I still disagree with you on is about defense, leadership, and now that you mentioned it: post game. Pip is a far superior player in these areas. I know Bron is a better scorer, but I've seen Pip score 40+ in the '80s (the toughest era IMO) - so if Pip played in today's era, I could see him avg 25ppg to go with about 7rebs, and 7apg. He'd be Paul George on steroids. Today's rules have been implemented to speed the game up and manufacture superstars (like Wade and his patent pending FTAs). Prime MJ would avg 40+ppg in today's era of no hand checking. , Prime Kobe average 35.4 in '06 so I'd say in his prime he'd damn near average 40 as well in today's era.

Leadership? I never saw Pippen lead a team to a championship. Sure he had a major role in championships, but he NEVER was the indisputed leader, and there was never a single Finals series where Pippen seemed to remotely have a chance at winning FMVP over MJ. Yeah, I don't see how you justify that.

rule changes. People still handcheck, just not in blatantly obvious manners. But pretty much every play has some sort of handchecking going on.

[Phillip]

If I remember correctly, Phillip was the poster who also tried downgrading Kawhi's ability last year by comparing him to Battier or some other player with similar ability. Can't remember which one he choose. He's one of the worst posters on this site and its not even close.

[Phillip]

You were the one to compare Lebron to MJ in the first place.

If by comparing the simple fact that they both were #1 options on their respective squads, then yes. But you were the one who posted this, when it was completely irrelevant.

And MJ was NEVER shut down like Lebron, he was still putting up 27-32 ppg on 46+% shooting against the Pistons when they faced in the playoffs, MJ never had series like Lebron did against the Spurs in 07 or Celtics in 08 or Mavs in 2011, MJ could score against anyone, "stopping" him meant making him shoot maybe 5-10% lower than his season average, hardly doing anything to affect his game. Pistons just managed to stop the Bulls every time due to them being the better TEAM, MJ was a total ballhog and the only great player on his team until Pippen and Phil Jackson came along and they went to the triangle. But MJ never struggled to put up numbers and score when needed, he was just in his 2nd season when he put up 43.7 ppg on the Bird's Celtics in a series.

[thunderup]

At least you own up to your ty take. Adding emoticons in between sentences is so original and unique. You got me, partner.

[thunderup]

Anytime greatness is discussed, MJ will be cited as the barometer. It's not his fault LeRoid has choked on multiple occasions and nearly choked away the le individually in game 6.

[Phillip]

lol 2012 finals

[AchillesHeel]

If by comparing the simple fact that they both were #1 options on their respective squads, then yes. But you were the one who posted this, when it was completely irrelevant.

It was a response to this:

What happened in 2011 and a good portion of the 2013 finals are the EXACT SAME THING that happened to MJ during the years of "The Jordan Rules" against Detroit. Detroit cared about one thing, and that was making life miserable for MJ. They sent constant double and triple teams at him basically any time he tried to score and were extremely physical with him. The result? While MJ scored plenty of points, he did so quite inefficiently, and in the process took his teammates out of the game, since he was so insistent on forcing himself to score, instead of involving his teammates. When he finally figured out the importance of setting his teammates up, and how it will in turn make the game easier for him, they ended up sweeping the Pistons.

Seriously? You said that MJ was INEFFICIENT. Does 28-30 ppg on 46-48% shooting scream INEFFICIENT to you? is it comparable to Lebron's 2011 or 2013 Finals? Heck no.

The difference between "The Jordan rules" and Lebron's 2011 Finals is that while Detroit took the rest of the Bulls out of the game, they never took Jordan out of the game, Lebron was taken out of games by having WIDE OPEN SHOTS.

That's all I tried to say on like 3-4 different posts, where you called me out on "hating" on Lebron, while I was merely responding to YOUR post. You were trying to put Lebron on the same level as MJ, as if Lebron has ever been as big of a threat as Michael