Shannon Sharpe says Manu is not a top 30 player

[daslicer]

This has olajuwon at 23 Spurmsfans

You lack reading comprehension skills. He said "Very personal and likely omitting some players, and not in a particular order after 5 or so, but this is just me."

[DAF86]

DAFhomer

Listen Manu is a great player and his advanced stats suggest he is a top 50 player of all time but to play devil advocate here, Manus advanced stats is slighlty inflated due to playing a decent amount of his time against Bench Guys.

At his peak he was easily a top 10 player, but Harden is easily the most sophisticated offensive SG of all time.

Iverson mainly played in an era where 40% was acceptable so long as the personel around focused on defensive tasks since most players in the early 00s were less efficient in general.

Manu is easily the most influential spurs player though. Even more so than Duncan despite being clearly a significantly better player.

You just Say that 'cause Harden got traded and tot the chance to be the number one guy of a team. Would you be saying the same thing if Harden stayed all his career as the 6th man of OKC averaging 16 ppg?

And I'm not even going to bother keep answering the Manu/AI thing. Folks not realizing Manu is clearly better aren't worth my time. You are on a lesser analytical level.

[DAF86]

You put Manu on that 76er team and he won’t shoot 40%. And AI prime would destroy Manu prime in one on one. You can be a great player and not fit well in a team concept. For instance, AI had to have the ball in his hands. When he did, he could be dominant. Manu could play on or off the ball. AI would never be a bench player. Not so for Manu.

End of the day, this is all opinion and I know an Argentine is going to side w Manu. I don’t fault you for that. I’m partial to him bc I’m a Spurs fan. But you’d be hard pressed to find an expert that would say Manu is a better B.B. player than AI. There are things Manu does better than him, but I don’t think any GM would pick Manu over AI.

Manu will always average over 40% from the field because he is a smart efficient player that won't shoot 30 twenty foot fadeaway jumpers per game.

Smh at dumb Spurs fans that never realized the true greatness of Ginobili.

Dude, small advice: stop going by perception and look at the stats that matter. Like the ones on mi sig.

[DAF86]

Just took a look. Harden was 22 (!) years old his last and most productive year in OKC. He was still a kid. And the offense was not centered around him, as it was more about Russ and KD. Still, his numbers were comparable (3p%, PPG, TRB/G, AST/G, St/G Minutes/per game), to Manu's first year with comparable minutes (about 30 mpg), 04-05, when Manu started every game (more attention, more plays run for him, Pop designing plays for him and letting him have the ball at the top of the key to go to his left every drive). And, Manu was fully in his prime that year, at 27. So your numbers argument is baseless.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...hardeja01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com...ginobma01.html


And then you can look at today, when Harden is literally the face of his franchise for several years, each time leading them to the WC finals by himself, with CP0 out with injury, and still almost beating the all star Worriers. You really can't even compare the two, apples to apples. One is clearly far superior player, even if the other is a beloved Spur and a 1st ballot HOF.

Harden averaged 16 ppg on his best year as a bench player, around the same Manu did for his career. The next year, as a number one guy he scored 26 ppg. Coincidence?

Manu would have had the same impact as a number one guy. Difference is he would have been a better leader, would have played defense, and wouldn't have shrinked on the playoffs.

[cd98]

Manu will always average over 40% from the field because he is a smart efficient player that won't shoot 30 twenty foot fadeaway jumpers per game.

Smh at dumb Spurs fans that never realized the true greatness of Ginobili.

Dude, small advice: stop going by perception and look at the stats that matter.

When you play mostly against bench players, you tend to have an easier time scoring. But I guess “dumb” is anyone that thinks differently than you.

Sure Manu dominated second units. No one ever asked him to do what AI did, therefore, we will never know if he could carry a team in the NBA like AI.

And no, being great in FIBA is not the same as the NBA. So comparing what AI did in the NBA to what Manu did in a FIBA league is nonsensical.

[DAF86]

When you play mostly against bench players, you tend to have an easier time scoring. But I guess “dumb” is anyone that thinks differently than you.

Sure Manu dominated second units. No one ever asked him to do what AI did, therefore, we will never know if he could carry a team in the NBA like AI.

And no, being great in FIBA is not the same as the NBA. So comparing what AI did in the NBA to what Manu did in a FIBA league is nonsensical.

Yeah, that's why the most Harden averaged as a bench player was 16 ppg, and as a number one option he's averaging 30 ppg, because it is easier to score more coming off the bench.

Dude, do yourself a favour and stop making a fool out of yourself.

[cd98]

Harden averaged 16 ppg on his best year as a bench player, around the same Manu did. The next year, as a number one guy he scored 26 ppg. Coincidence?

Manu would have had the same impact as a number one guy. Difference is he would have been a better leader, would have played defense, and wouldn't have shrinked on the playoffs.

There’s no evidence if Manu was in Houston with Harden’s roster, that he would’ve been better. Harden is a great basketball player. Maybe a horrible defender, but I’d say every bit as good and probably better than Manu as a playmaker and scorer. Give people credit or your argument comes off as biased and ignorant.

Manu might be able to do what Harden is doing, but you can only extrapolate his averages over 30 min and that would be data that would be skewed. ESP bc Manu played the significant portion of his career with all time Tim Duncan in his prime. Harden has never had that level of a team mate to ease his burden since being in Houston.

[cd98]

Yeah, that's why the most Harden averaged as a bench player was 16 ppg, and as a number one option he's averaging 30 ppg, because it is easier to score more coming off the bench.

Dude, do yourself a favour and stop making a fool out of yourself.

Ha. Harden in OKC is not comparable to Manu on Spurs.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Jesus christ I cant believe people are ranking AI over Manu. Watch some damn games from both players. Look at their careers.

They are actually opposite players in every way. AI was a statpadder of the first degree and he would take half the shots of his entire team. His selfish ass never allowed him to win anything even though he was in good teams.

Manu was a complete different player in every way and had a hand and a half in every single one of those 4 last rings

[SpurOutofTownFan]

There’s no evidence if Manu was in Houston with Harden’s roster, that he would’ve been better. Harden is a great basketball player. Maybe a horrible defender, but I’d say every bit as good and probably better than Manu as a playmaker and scorer. Give people credit or your argument comes off as biased and ignorant.

Manu might be able to do what Harden is doing, but you can only extrapolate his averages over 30 min and that would be data that would be skewed. ESP bc Manu played the significant portion of his career with all time Tim Duncan in his prime. Harden has never had that level of a team mate to ease his burden since being in Houston.

Comparing red apples to green apples: Harden while a 6th man in OKC he had KD, WB ,and Ibaka, plus a pretty solid bench. That's arguably a pretty decent team compared to Spurs post 2005 which is when they firmly sat Manu on the bench. Manu had TP and TD, and maybe Bowen, and a pretty good bench. So it was pretty much the same thing.

Harden is a great player - I think he can surpass Manu after his career is complete but he isn't there yet. He will need to accomplish some degree of success. Otherwise we are just saying a guy who takes most of the shots in his team and scores 30 pts per game is better than anyone else. I don't think so. I refuse to concede that that's the measure of a great player in bb. And that's a problem with most of you guys.

[DAF86]

There’s no evidence if Manu was in Houston with Harden’s roster, that he would’ve been better. Harden is a great basketball player. Maybe a horrible defender, but I’d say every bit as good and probably better than Manu as a playmaker and scorer. Give people credit or your argument comes off as biased and ignorant.

Manu might be able to do what Harden is doing, but you can only extrapolate his averages over 30 min and that would be data that would be skewed. ESP bc Manu played the significant portion of his career with all time Tim Duncan in his prime. Harden has never had that level of a team mate to ease his burden since being in Houston.

Dude, you are talking as if Manu had never led 50+ wins teams on the NBA. Do you even know the history of your own team? Do you remember Manu leading Keith ing Bogans and Dejuan Blair to 61 wins?

[cd98]

Dude, you are talking as if Manu had never led 50+ wins teams on the NBA. Do you even know the history of your own team? Do you remember Manu leading Keith ing Bogans and Debían Blair to 61 wins?

Hmmm Tim Duncan. Do you know Spurs history? Tim was the team leader, not Manu.

[DAF86]

Hmmm Tim Duncan. Do you know Spurs history? Tim was the team leader, not Manu.

Who was the number one option coming into that 2010 playoffs? Who was the number one option for the entirety of the 2008 season?

[cd98]

Who was the number one option coming into that 2010 playoffs? Who was the number one option for the entirety of the 2008 season?

It was always Tim. Please.

[daslicer]

Who was the number one option coming into that 2010 playoffs? Who was the number one option for the entirety of the 2008 season?

Actually Duncan lead the team in scoring during the '09-'10 season. Manu did lead the team in scoring in '08 but it was by razor thin margin since he averaged 19.5 points per game while Tim averaged 19.3.

[daslicer]

Comparing red apples to green apples: Harden while a 6th man in OKC he had KD, WB ,and Ibaka, plus a pretty solid bench. That's arguably a pretty decent team compared to Spurs post 2005 which is when they firmly sat Manu on the bench. Manu had TP and TD, and maybe Bowen, and a pretty good bench. So it was pretty much the same thing.

Harden is a great player - I think he can surpass Manu after his career is complete but he isn't there yet. He will need to accomplish some degree of success. Otherwise we are just saying a guy who takes most of the shots in his team and scores 30 pts per game is better than anyone else. I don't think so. I refuse to concede that that's the measure of a great player in bb. And that's a problem with most of you guys.

He's already surpassed Manu. He won a league MVP. You can't be that crazy to put Manu over a league MVP.

[DAF86]

Actually Duncan lead the team in scoring during the '09-'10 season. Manu did lead the team in scoring in '08 but it was by razor thin margin since he averaged 19.5 points per game while Tim averaged 19.3.

That's why I said "coming into the playoffs" for the 2010 season. After a slow start to the season, Manu was the number one option that allowed the Spurs to win 61 games, and the only reason the Spurs got eliminated on the first round was because Manu missed game one.

[FkLA]

That's why I said "coming into the playoffs" for the 2010 season. After a slow start to the season, Manu was the number one option that allowed the Spurs to win 61 games, and the only reason the Spurs got eliminated on the first round was because Manu missed game one.

That was 2010-2011 when they lost to the Grizz.

2010 playoffs was when TP went down and the great Emmanuel David Ginobili assumed playmaking duties with Hill as the PG. He was a Top 5 player the last third of that season. I remember making a thread about it, he averaged like 23-6-5 down the stretch or something ridiculous like that.

[DAF86]

That was 2010-2011 when they lost to the Grizz.

2010 playoffs was when TP went down and the great Emmanuel David Ginobili assumed playmaking duties with Hill as the PG. He was a Top 5 player the last third of that season. I remember making a thread about it, he averaged like 23-6-5 down the stretch or something ridiculous like that.

Yeah, my bad. Well, in both years Manu was the guy coming into the playoffs.

[scanry]

IMO ranking wise, Tim is 5-15 all time. David is 30-50. Ice is probably 40-70. Manu and Tony are 70-100.

[DAF86]

IMO ranking wise, Tim is 5-15 all time. David is 30-50. Ice is probably 40-70. Manu and Tony are 70-100.

The ? Tim is top 7 at worst. The is this about 15?

Also, Robinson is criminally underrated for his pack of help. Everytime you see an impact stat Robinson is right up there.

Manu is definitely top 50. Tony is right up there too. SMH, if even Spur fans underrate their players.

[JakeCuenca]

The ? Tim is top 7 at worst. The is this about 15?

Also, Robinson is criminally underrated for his pack of help. Everytime you see an impact stat Robinson is right up there.

Manu is definitely top 50. Tony is right up there too. SMH, if even Spur fans underrate their players.

Tony is top 50. Manu is likely not.

[DAF86]

Tony is top 50. Manu is likely not.

Tony has better accolades on the NBA. Manu is clearly the better player.

[JakeCuenca]

Tony has better accolades on the NBA. Manu is clearly the better player.

Manu is not clearly the better player. Stop being a flaming homer.

[DAF86]

Manu is not clearly the better player. Stop being a flaming homer.

He is. Every relevant metric shows it. Stop being an ignorant mother er.