"relevant" metric ie the metric my favourite player has an advantage in?
Stop being a flaming homer.
No, literally EVERY metric that shows impact rather than raw stats got from playing and shooting more.
VORP: Manu-47 / Tony-26
BPM: Manu-4.9/Tony-0.8
DBPM: Manu-1.6/Tony- negative 0.8
OBPM: Manu-3.7/Tony-1.6
WS/48: Manu-.190/Tony-.142
It's really not close, tbh.
Manu’s one of the players you’d pick to take the final shot in game 7 of an nba finals game. That’s the essence of him as a compe or. That’s also what makes him a first ballot hall of fame player.
who?
Although I don't necessarily disagree
If you're even top 250 in the history of Basketball, you're a god damn of a player, tbh...
I've already outlined the reasoning behind these numbers. It's systematic. Manu is not getting those numbers because he was never Kawhi Leonard/Chris Paul/ Lebron James kinda player..Those numbers are more indicative of how dominant he was a second unit player. Tony on the other hand is a PG that is systematically placed at position to "Create" a system.
Let's put it this way, The spurs was able to build a system around Tony Parkers ability to get into the basket. Make no mistake, the offense from 12-14 was built around Parkers ability to get into the lane. And while Duncan and Leonard were ultimately the better playoff players in both the 13-14 playoff, it was also a result of opposing teams decreasing driving lanes allowing for Leonard and Duncan to flourish.
No team could ever create an offensive system under an injure prone player. He was never good enough as one all kinda offense. He never reached that offensive dominant in order for teams to rely on him on a consistent basis.
I'd probably take prime Manu over prime Nash. Nash was a product of a new system and was a sieve on defense.
If one thinks (as Sharpe does) Parker is superior than Manu then no-way Manu is in the Top 30. 3 teammates in the Top 30 is unheard of. Not even MJ-Pippen-Rodman qualifies.
Shannon Sharpe is a Lebron ball licker. Manu is top 30 to anyone paying attention.
Always amazes me that people put a 39 FG, poor team defense, under-sized player like Iverson among the greats. Yea, he was fun to watch; and he had 2-3 years that he was amazing even (at times). But he's not an all-time great.
he's definitely not a top 30 player of all-time. c'mon now son
Tim is Top 5. David Robinson is top 20. Manu is top 50. Parker would probably make top 100.
I ABSOLUTELY put Manu over Harden, even with league MVP. League MVP by definition is stat padding, among other things. They were better, more complete players, that should have won over Harden.
League MVP is a circus media nowadays - it doesn't mean anything. So that can never be your argument. You have no argument for Harden over Manu. You haven't shown anything yet.
Except the Spurs did have in many seasons offenses around Manu being the number one guy. Try again, with better arguments.
Please stop it. You are manhandling these es now
You do realize that JakeCuenca is apalisoc_9's alt...? After he was perma-banned he created that account.
In other words... he's trolling... horribly of course.
False.
Manu's career PER stands at 20.2.
Tony's career PER stands at 18.3.
During Manu's most prolific period (an 8 year span from 2004 - 2012) his PER averaged 23.0
Tony's best PER over any equivalent 8 year span was: 20.9
It's hard to catch up with the open floodgates.
You can't debate Manu being a Hall of Fame player. But I think the Top-30 argument is debatable, depending on your criteria for determining that status.
To me he is top 30. But to a football talking head, I can understand his confusion. He's reading a stat sheet. He'd probably rank Dwight Howard over Manu.
Like Manu brought the Euro Step, AI perfected and popularized the cross over step back pull up. People underrate this guy so much, it's crazy. He was under 6 feet tall. He did more than a few amazing plays, he led the league in scoring like 4 times. He carried a team of no ones to the NBA finals and took a game from a hugely dominant Laker team. And he won an MVP. My goodness, it just amazes me that people think this guy had 2-3 good seasons. He was an 11 time all star and made 3 all NBA first teams and 3 all NBA second teams. The first 10 years of his career, he was dominant. He didn't tail off until he went to Denver. Who'd of thought he and Melo could co-exist?
11 time all star at a time when pizzazz and 20 ppg regardless of anything else was punching the card, and at a time when he could take 25 shots a game. GTFO LMAO
Ask Bruce Bowen if AI is a great basketball player.
There’s no need to denigrate AI to prop up Manu. Iverson was absolutely an all time great. To suggest otherwise comes off as silly hating. He was not without flaw. But in his prime, he was nearly as impossible a guard as Shaq was. One defender simply couldn’t stay in front of him to even attempt to stop him. And for his offensive greatness to carry that horse of a Sixers team to the Finals, I don’t care if it was in a conference, it personified his dominance. He was a one man offensive team. Sure at times he was inefficient. And his defense was only about playing passing lanes for steals. Same could be said of the defense of plenty of HOFers. Iverson was more than just fun to watch. And he played with a similar drive and intensity that Manu did. As off court personalities go, extremely different. As compe ors, very much similar types.
As for Manu, he’s not a top 30 player. No shame in that. There have been tens of thousands of players over 70 some years of the league. He’s not a top 50 guy either. But he’s definitely a HOF player when you add his international career into the mix. If it was just NBA, it’s be a much tougher argument. For all the points about sacrificing individual stats for the good of the team and intangibles, it’s just tough to ignore the lack of individual stats and awards. Say he was named FMVP in 2005. I think that by itself would be something that would put him over the top, no question. But he wasn’t. So you go by what he did accomplish.
Statistically speaking and awards/accomplishments, and I realize many view his greatness way beyond his stats, I look at him as a similar player to guys like Terry Porter and Detlef Schrempf. And neither of those guys are knocking on the HOF door. It’s the international career that gives Manu the invitation to the party.
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