Alexandria ocasio Cortez is a breath of fresh air

[ElNono]

Mexico has a lower per capita emissions than the US

Maybe we need more Mexican illegals?

[ElNono]

Yeah because he stood up for the scientific method in the face of religious/political dogma.

And now you are advocating for political/religious dogma as a replacement for the scientific method


Galileo was a devout Christian.

"God is known by nature in his works, and by doctrine in his revealed word."

I'm not advocating for any kind of "religious/political dogma." That is simply a fallacy.

:lol besides not addressing the point, your position squarely falls on political dogma. You've not made a single scientific claim for or against climate change in this thread, yet made your allegedly informed opinion on the matter clear.

[DMC]

Follow through with what?

You know, the guy with the thing.

[DMC]

The per capita would increase but we would have a net decrease which will exceed the increase they will have in when they return to the countries they belong.

Which standard do you want to use?

[DMC]

Maybe we need more Mexican illegals?

Eh? EH? Someone here is using that noggin for something besides a walnut cracker.

[DMC]

What percentage of people that recognize the world is ending in 12 years have given up burgers?

Why should they? Burgers are good.

[ElNono]

I'm helping fight climate change by eating burgers, as it prevents an overpopulation of cows from farting... Just doing my part...

[boutons_deux]

Fox News Host Slams Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez For Raising Her Office’s Starting Salary

Pete Hegseth called it “socialism and communism on display.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pete-hegseth-alexandria-ocasio-cortez_n_5c737e30e4b06cf6bb27dc7f?ncid=newsltushpm gnews_TheMorningEmail__022519

[ducks]

Ocasio-Cortez: People Maybe Shouldn’t Reproduce Due To Climate Change

[SpursforSix]

Ocasio-Cortez: People Maybe Shouldn’t Reproduce Due To Climate Change

I'm not a huge AOC fan but that's out of context.

[boutons_deux]

Money is the total arbiter of American life. Not having children is financial decision.

Children are "expenditures" deducting from buying, doing all my shit.

[ducks]

It cost money to feed and take care of your kids
Your tax deductions do not offset that
Kids make you buy bigger houses and cars

[clambake]

It cost money to feed and take care of your kids
Your tax deductions do not offset that
Kids make you buy bigger houses and cars

hey, if you're sick of the kids, send them to bob kraft.

[spurraider21]

I'm not a huge AOC fan but that's out of context.
welcome to spurstalk conservatism

[SpursforSix]

welcome to spurstalk conservatism

fify

[spurraider21]

Galileo was a devout Christian.

"God is known by nature in his works, and by doctrine in his revealed word."

I'm not advocating for any kind of "religious/political dogma." That is simply a fallacy.
you started by noting he was "a bit of a maverick"

that is because he championed heliocentrism (from the scientific method) directly in the face of religious dogma (a time where the church claimed that to be heresy)

[Winehole23]

It should also be stressed that unlike Giordano Bruno, Galileo backed down and recanted in the face of excommunication.

(It's to his credit that he did, IMHO. Galileo's subsequent work was unquestionably of more value to science than he would have been as a martyr. Flexibility is underrated.)

[Chris]

'97% Of Climate Scientists Agree' Is 100% Wrong

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2015/01/06/97-of-climate-scientists-agree-is-100-wrong/#4b227cc3f9ff


https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2Fs44nqrt 6clFOE%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1

[Chris]

Debunked 4 years ago.

[spurraider21]

the whole "97% of scientists agree" imo is a poor talking point.

a) it doesn't matter what scientists "agree" with. science isn't determined by a poll of scientists

b) a scientists personal opinions dont matter. any scientist can go on a TV interview and say whatever they think, or write a book and write whatever they think. the only thing that matters is their published research. that goes beyond just their opinion, as they must back all claims with evidence and their methods/calculations are subject to rigorous peer review

c) however, with respect to the consensus issue, the more accurate source of the 97% or 99% figure or whatever figure you find is actually derived from looking through all research that has been published and evaluating what percentage of published papers are consistent with the carbon dioxide theory of climate change vs how many are inconsistent with that position. so it would be more accurate to state that 97% of all published research is consistent with anthropogenic climate change theory

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/8/2/024024
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/048002/meta
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/9/094025/meta
https://www.pnas.org/content/107/27/12107

[spurraider21]

example,

who gives a fuck if bill nye believes in climate change? he's a mechanical engineer with no expertise in "climate science"... climate science is an umbrella term and would include people of all sorts of disciplines, including climatology, paleoclimatology, atmospheric physics, oceanography, volcanology, geology, glaciology, hydrology, etc

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/GobAbiertoBOL/status/1099902306680754177
https://twitter.com/GobAbiertoBOL/status/1100037255496912898
https://twitter.com/GobAbiertoBOL/status/1100038402420948992
https://twitter.com/GobAbiertoBOL/status/1100047488013271043

[Pavlov]

Who is Gob?

[Thanos]

Who is Gob?
https://media.giphy.com/media/ntHRTkAOukqYg/giphy.gif

[Chris]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0SIv4GUUAAXeBk.jpg:large

[Will Hunting]

That doesn't add up to 100%

[Pavlov]

I thought the economy was great. What gives?

[Thanos]

lol immigration nowhere near the top

[spurraider21]

https://twitter.com/GobAbiertoBOL/status/1099902306680754177
would probably seem that way to somebody who learns about climate change through tweets


https://twitter.com/GobAbiertoBOL/status/1100037255496912898
al gore didn't start anything. the carbon dioxide theory of climate change has been around since the 1800's

fossil fuels have undeniably been helpful for us. but it turns out its incredibly harmful in the big picture, and if we have the ability to transition away from fossil fuel as our energy source to other methods that aren't as harmful, it only makes sense to do so. the technology for renewables are ever-improving and they are becoming more and more cost effective with time. no reason to expect that trend wont continue, particularly if we invest in them more heavily


https://twitter.com/GobAbiertoBOL/status/1100038402420948992
yup, the climate has always changed and will continue to change after we die. but they're not randomness. we have come to better understand the mechanics of what, specifically, has caused those historical fluctuations in temperature. of course, we know the sun itself plays a huge role. while there are short "solar cycles" that typically span about 11 years (we are currently at the "low" point of the current cycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cycle_24). we also know that on a larger scale, the sun has gotten warmer with time as the composition changes from the lighter hydrogen to heavier helium...

https://adlerastrojournalists.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/solarevolution.jpg?w=520

we also know that the atmospheric makeup has a lot to do with planetary temperature. CO2 and other greenhouse gases like methane contribute to warming. this is why venus is much hotter than mercury despite being farther from the sun.

of course, there are other factors. another example is albedo... the reflective state of the earth. when we have more ice, sunlight tends to be reflected instead of absorbed, which leads to a further cooling effect. and vice versa when ice melts, revealing a darker, more absorbing surface.

none of these factors can on their own explain the history of the earth's climate. if the ~11 year solar cycle dominated, we wouldn't be able to explain the warming trend we're currently seeing. if the sun's lifetime temperature was the only factor, that wouldn't explain why we get in and out of ice ages. the milankovitch cycle takes place over hundreds of thousands of years, and cannot account for changes that occur in the timespan we are looking at. even greenhouse gases alone cannot paint the whole picture.


https://twitter.com/GobAbiertoBOL/status/1100047488013271043
liberals havent been pushing evolution. biologists have. evolution doesnt say that all species will adapt. it says that those which are best able to adapt will survive and pass on those traits. but our goal shouldn't be do simply avoid extinction. if we can mitigate climate change which can impact the quality of life of billions of people, it would be really dumb to say "we shouldnt do that, because our species will adapt and avoid extinction."

[spurraider21]

btw fully expecting this response

https://i.imgflip.com/2um7ak.jpg

[midnightpulp]

'97% Of Climate Scientists Agree' Is 100% Wrong

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2015/01/06/97-of-climate-scientists-agree-is-100-wrong/#4b227cc3f9ff


https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2Fs44nqrt 6clFOE%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1


Alex Epstein is the author of the New York Times best-selling book The Moral Case for Fossil Fuels and an expert on energy and industrial policy.

:lmao

Hold up, let's see if Alex Epstein is a climate scientist...

Nope. A computer science major :lol

[midnightpulp]

btw fully expecting this response

https://i.imgflip.com/2um7ak.jpg

They also don't understand the core concern. No one believes the Earth's temp is going to rise to the point where we all die of heat stroke, so when "deniers" try to frame the issue by saying there's no "evidence" the Earth is heading toward "catastrophic warming," they're right. The Earth will still be more than livable.

The concern is that the projected rising temps aren't fully compatible with how our society is set up. A country's coastal regions will often be its biggest and most important economic contributors. Climate change will have a profound effect on those regions. Climate change does increase natural disaster frequency, so expect costs to rise on that front. Large areas of China and India are trending toward being uninhabitable due to pollution.

[ducks]

I'm not a huge AOC fan but that's out of context.
“Our planet is going to face disaster if we don’t turn this ship around,” she said, as she chopped sweet potatoes. “And so it’s basically like, there is a scientific consensus that the lives of children are going to be very difficult and it does lead, I think young people, to have a legitimate question. Ya know, should—is it okay to still have children?”

[spurraider21]

“Our planet is going to face disaster if we don’t turn this ship around,” she said, as she chopped sweet potatoes. “And so it’s basically like, there is a scientific consensus that the lives of children are going to be very difficult and it does lead, I think young people, to have a legitimate question. Ya know, should—is it okay to still have children?”
exactly, it was out of context. this was your original post

Ocasio-Cortez: People Maybe Shouldn’t Reproduce Due To Climate Change
nowhere did she encourage people not to have kids

[Pavlov]

:lmao you guys are fucking watching her cook

[Chris]

:lmao

Hold up, let's see if Alex Epstein is a climate scientist...

Nope. A computer science major :lol

Unless coming from a federal funded climate scientist, information is irrelevant - got it :tu

[spurraider21]

Unless coming from a federal funded climate scientist, information is irrelevant - got it :tu
no need to be federally funded. just be somebody who actually conducts scientific research on the topic :tu

[Nbadan]

https://cdn.creators.com/198/248385/248385_image.jpg

[Winehole23]

OIL JUST BLOOPS UP IN SOME PLACESIT JUST BLOOPS UP. NOTHING TO BE DONE ABOUT IT.

[Spurs Homer]

Hannity and Tucker are really triggered by AOC

Both spent half their show calling her -

"the new leader of the democrats" "the boss"

poor fellers

[ducks]

Hannity and Tucker are really triggered by AOC

Both spent half their show calling her -

"the new leader of the democrats" "the boss"

poor fellersthey are attacking her
She is the democracts biggest weakness along with Nancy

[SpursforSix]

Unless coming from a federal funded climate scientist, information is irrelevant - got it :tu

Like the federally funded scientists that approve pharmaceuticals, food products, and agricultural chemicals?

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/PardesSeleh/status/1100207068416561153

[Pavlov]

:lmao Chris is still watching her fucking cook.

[Will Hunting]

The AOC obsession gets weird by the day.

[Chris]

:lmao That's not her

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm glad we have AOC. She is a constant source of entertainment like Trump. What stupid shit will they say next?

[Chris]

She's the best :lol

[Pavlov]

:lmao That's not herSo you're posting videos of not her cooking because you ran out of videos of her cooking to watch?

:lmao

[koriwhat]

So you're posting videos of not her cooking because you ran out of videos of her cooking to watch?

:lmao

you were too dumb to notice but claim others don't read, watch, etc... dipshit!

[Pavlov]

you were too dumb to notice but claim others don't read, watch, etc... dipshit!I didn't watch this video after not watching the six other videos.

How many did you watch?

[koriwhat]

I didn't watch this video after not watching the six other videos.

How many did you watch?

didn't need to watch the video to know that wasn't the retard ocasio-cortez. you're still a dipshit no matter how much you try to wiggle your way out.

[Pavlov]

didn't need to watch the video to know that wasn't the retard ocasio-cortez. you're still a dipshit no matter how much you try to wiggle your way out.How many did you watch?

[koriwhat]

How many did you watch?

trying to turn the tables on me as if i had to watch any of the videos at all... you're a dipshit holmes! keep on wiggling about you fucking retard.

[Pavlov]

trying to turn the tables on me as if i had to watch any of the videos at all... you're a dipshit holmes! keep on wiggling about you fucking retard.How many?

Five?

Six?

[FrostKing]

She done porn yet?

[koriwhat]

How many?

Five?

Six?

why are you asking me how many i watched? what's the point? idgaf about watching any of them but the truth is you got caught being the retard that you are and now you're trying to save face.

so funny how you try this bs tactic time and time again because you were outed as the dipshit that you are.

[koriwhat]

hey pav, must suck having such an inflated ego that you resort to bs tactics because you got your feelings hurt... boofuckinghoo retard!

[clambake]

when joey ever says "you been outed", it means you haven't been outed.

[Pavlov]

why are you asking me how many i watched? what's the point? idgaf about watching any of them but the truth is you got caught being the retard that you are and now you're trying to save face.

so funny how you try this bs tactic time and time again because you were outed as the dipshit that you are.I just read the tweet. Sorry.

[koriwhat]

when joey ever says "you been outed", it means you haven't been outed.

try and make some damn sense for once... i see pav has worn off on you; 2 fucking retards!

[koriwhat]

I just read the tweet. Sorry.

no you didn't because if you did you would've read "Pardes Seleh" too!

you're just a fucking retard with an inflated ego.

[Pavlov]

no you didn't because if you did you would've read "Pardes Seleh" too!

you're just a fucking retard with an inflated ego.I did. Other people post videos of AOC all the time.

Did you not know that?

lol kori

[koriwhat]

I did. Other people post videos of AOC all the time.

Did you not know that?

lol kori

lol what i do know is the still shot is blatantly not AOC and i could tell within .1 seconds. you're just a dipshit still trying to wiggle your way out of being the retard that you are.

[Pavlov]

lol what i do know is the still shot is blatantly not AOC and i could tell within .1 seconds. you're just a dipshit still trying to wiggle your way out of being the retard that you are.I read the tweet.

Sorry, kori.

[clambake]

a guy that decides to tat his calves with a sports teams logo........at the ripe age of 27........needs to stop throwing around words like retard.

[koriwhat]

I read the tweet.

Sorry, kori.

nah, you're a retard who expects others to watch videos, read articles, etc and then bug the fuck out of people with your stupid "yes or no" shit line of questioning. you're nothing more than a fucking retard who thinks way too highly of himself with a shit internet shtick.

[koriwhat]

a guy that decides to tat his calves with a sports teams logo........at the ripe age of 27........needs to stop throwing around words like retard.

yeah yeah yeah pussy! big talking faggots on ST are a dime a dozen but i never see any of you face to face though i've tried. you're just like the rest you fucking pussy.

[Pavlov]

nah, you're a retard who expects others to watch videos, read articles, etc and then bug the fuck out of people with your stupid "yes or no" shit line of questioning. you're nothing more than a fucking retard who thinks way too highly of himself with a shit internet shtick.I don't expect you to do anything but whine about me, sissy.

lol kori

[clambake]

a guy that decides to tat his calves with a sports teams logo........at the ripe age of 27........needs to stop throwing around words like retard.

page 63 is better for this

[Pavlov]

yeah yeah yeah pussy! big talking faggots on ST are a dime a dozen but i never see any of you face to face though i've tried. you're just like the rest you fucking pussy.Why do you want to meet men from the internet?

[koriwhat]

I don't expect you to do anything but whine about me, sissy.

lol kori

oh the old "whine about me" shtick... you're pathetic but what's new?

[koriwhat]

Why do you want to meet men from the internet?

you might want to tbh; just look how your buttboy clam came to your defense. where's your other lovers at here on ST?

[Pavlov]

oh the old "whine about me" shtick... you're pathetic but what's new?Get a new non-whining shtick.


you might want to tbh; just look how your buttboy clam came to your defense. where's your other lovers at here on ST?No, you said you tried to meet strange men from the internet.

Why do you want to do that?

[koriwhat]

Get a new non-whining shtick.

no one is whining... i pointed out how much of a retard you are and you went and tried to spin your retardation 180. stop trying to spin shit just because you have an over inflated ego. that's the truth of the matter. you've got no spine and your behavior is predictable when called out.

[Pavlov]

no one is whining.Of course you are.

All you do is whine about other posters.

[koriwhat]

Of course you are.

All you do is whine about other posters.

that's your take only when i call your bitch ass out for being the retarded pussy that you are. it's a pattern of yours and it's easy to spot.

[Pavlov]

that's your take only when i call your bitch ass out for being the retarded pussy that you are. it's a pattern of yours and it's easy to spot.What do you do here besides whine about other posters? It's all you do here. It's a pattern of yours that's easy to spot.

[koriwhat]

What do you do here besides whine about other posters? It's all you do here. It's a pattern of yours that's easy to spot.

if you weren't such a fucking retard i wouldn't have to point it out all the time. clean up your act and then you wouldn't have to whine about me pointing out how much of a dipshit you are.

[Pavlov]

if you weren't such a fucking retard i wouldn't have to point it out all the time. clean up your act and then you wouldn't have to whine about me pointing out how much of a dipshit you are.You didn't say what else you do here besides whine about other posters.

Because there is nothing else.

[koriwhat]

You didn't say what else you do here besides whine about other posters.

Because there is nothing else.

keep whining you baby back bitch!

[Trill Clinton]

SRK3FwmjH-Y

[CosmicCowboy]

Trump may be an ass, but trying to get the local appraisal board to lower a property appraisal (they called it deflating the value) is perfectly legal and virtually everyone does it.

[DarrinS]

Trump may be an ass, but trying to get the local appraisal board to lower a property appraisal (they called it deflating the value) is perfectly legal and virtually everyone does it.

I've gone to Bexar county appraisal and done the same thing. AOC is a dingbat.

[boutons_deux]

Trash's up valuing and down valuing his properties is not "everybody's" order of magnitude.

NY, etc are now looking closely at Trash org value declarations.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html

http://time.com/5413841/new-york-state-tax-trump/

Trash's entire life is one huge con job, 100% fraudulence.

[CosmicCowboy]

Trash's up valuing and down valuing his properties is not "everybody's" order of magnitude.

NY, etc are now looking closely at Trash org value declarations.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/10/02/us/politics/donald-trump-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html

http://time.com/5413841/new-york-state-tax-trump/

Trash's entire life is one huge con job, 100% fraudulence.




Your own stories say the IRS and New York didn't have a problem with the transactions at the time. This one really does look like a hit job.

[RD2191]

I've gone to Bexar county appraisal and done the same thing. AOC is a dingbat.

You live in a basement though?

[Spurs Homer]

I've gone to Bexar county appraisal and done the same thing. AOC is a dingbat.

Sure, but did you also follow through on this fraud and avoid paying the IRS taxes?

Did you also commit tax fraud and lie to a bank to get a loan using fraudulent assessments?

Then maybe the Bexar Co DA needs to pay you a visit?

[DarrinS]

You live in a basement though?

You don't know much about home construction in South Texas. Lol, basement

[CosmicCowboy]

Sure, but did you also follow through on this fraud and avoid paying the IRS taxes?

Did you also commit tax fraud and lie to a bank to get a loan using fraudulent assessments?

Then maybe the Bexar Co DA needs to pay you a visit?

The value of an unsold property is subject to interpretation and trying to find comps that support your position. There is absolutely nothing illegal about fighting the county appraised value on property. I pay professionals every year to fight appraisals. There is also nothing illegal about claiming (a reasonable) higher value on financial statements, etc. Typically, no two properties are identical and estimations of value are subjective and reasonable +/- values are normal.

[CosmicCowboy]

Sure, but did you also follow through on this fraud and avoid paying the IRS taxes?

Did you also commit tax fraud and lie to a bank to get a loan using fraudulent assessments?

Then maybe the Bexar Co DA needs to pay you a visit?

The value of an unsold property is subject to interpretation and trying to find comps that support your position. There is absolutely nothing illegal about fighting the county appraised value on property. I pay professionals every year to fight appraisals. There is also nothing illegal about claiming (a reasonable) higher value on financial statements, etc. Typically, no two properties are identical and estimations of value are subjective and reasonable +/- values are normal.

[Spurs Homer]

The value of an unsold property is subject to interpretation and trying to find comps that support your position. There is absolutely nothing illegal about fighting the county appraised value on property. I pay professionals every year to fight appraisals. There is also nothing illegal about claiming (a reasonable) higher value on financial statements, etc. Typically, no two properties are identical and estimations of value are subjective and reasonable +/- values are normal.

I get it -

nothing to see there -

but in the obtaining a loan - using fraudulent means -

is an actual crime - that is what I pointed out.

[CosmicCowboy]

I get it -

nothing to see there -

but in the obtaining a loan - using fraudulent means -

is an actual crime - that is what I pointed out.

Your belief shows a lack of financial sophistication. I have done multiple loans based on property and the bank always does their own independent appraisal. They never just "take your word for what you claim its worth".

[Spurs Homer]

Your belief shows a lack of financial sophistication. I have done multiple loans based on property and the bank always does their own independent appraisal. They never just "take your word for what you claim its worth".

talking about your boy breaking the law -

right ere;


https://buffalonews.com/2019/02/27/cohen-claims-calls-trump-a-cheat-citing-records-used-in-2014-bid-to-buy-bills/

[CosmicCowboy]

What's the value of a brand? It's normally called "good will" when evaluating the value of a business.

[Trill Clinton]

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1100875724217552906

pretty much. i can see her as our president in 2032. shes slick.

[CosmicCowboy]

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1100875724217552906

pretty much. i can see her as our president in 2032. shes slick.

Lol you would.

[Trill Clinton]

She's a star

[DMC]

She's a star

So is that guy in your avatar.

[Nathan89]

Agreed she can win the presidency in the future. Dark times are ahead.

[rmt]

https://twitter.com/funder/status/1100875724217552906

pretty much. i can see her as our president in 2032. shes slick.

You think she got Cohen to admit anything important? If he had ANYTHING important on Trump, he would NOT be going to jail in a couple of months. You people must think that banks, county property offices and insurance companies don't have their own assessors. GOP is terrified of her because the other (stupid) side is following her (right off the cliff) and probably GOING TO TAKE THE REST OF US WITH THEM.

[midnightpulp]

You think she got Cohen to admit anything important? If he had ANYTHING important on Trump, he would NOT be going to jail in a couple of months. You people must think that banks, county property offices and insurance companies don't have their own assessors. GOP is terrified of her because the other (stupid) side is following her (right off the cliff) and probably GOING TO TAKE THE REST OF US WITH THEM.

:lmao There's absolutely nothing radical about AOC. Republicans are actually the bigger "socialists." They just prefer to socialize the cost of military bases in no-name countries and wars with goat farmers.

[rmt]

:lmao There's absolutely nothing radical about AOC. Republicans are actually the bigger "socialists." They just prefer to socialize the cost of military bases in no-name countries and wars with goat farmers.

You don't think that GND is radical? Not to mention her suggestion that maybe we shouldn't be having kids. OK.

[midnightpulp]

You don't think that GND is radical? Not to mention her suggestion that maybe we shouldn't be having kids. OK.

No. And she never suggested we shouldn't have kids. Watch the video where that quote came from. She was simply framing a question.

[rmt]

No. And she never suggested we shouldn't have kids. Watch the video where that quote came from. She was simply framing a question.

Framing a PREPOSTEROUS question/hint/suggestion/thought/whatever you want to call it - just like most of her ideas including Amazon - remember “we could invest those $3 billion in our district. We could hire more teachers. We can fix our subways, we can put a lot of people to work for that money”.

[midnightpulp]

Framing a PREPOSTEROUS question/hint/suggestion/thought/whatever you want to call it - just like most of her ideas including Amazon - remember “we could invest those $3 billion in our district. We could hire more teachers. We can fix our subways, we can put a lot of people to work for that money”.

1098240118081482752

And nowhere in the video did she endorse the position to not have kids, so bringing that up is a moot point.

[midnightpulp]

More:


Ocasio-Cortez responded forcefully and at length: "Not sure how many pundits talking about Amazon even read the deal or where it was going. $500+ million of the deal was *capital grants.* $2.5 billion in tax breaks. It’s fair to ask why we don’t invest the capital for public use, + why we don’t give working people a tax break," she wrote in a series of tweets.

"Frankly, the knee-jerk reaction assuming that I 'don’t understand' how tax giveaways to corps work is disappointing. No, it’s not possible that I could come to a different conclusion. The debate *must* be over my intelligence & understanding, instead of the merits of the deal," she wrote.

"There’s NO WAY that this deal - one of the biggest giveaways in state history - could possibly have been bad, right?" she added sarcastically. "Surely there can’t be anything wrong with suddenly announcing a massive restructuring & pricing out of a community without any advance notice or input from them."

"There’s no CHANCE that the speculative insider real-estate buys that were creating immediate spikes in rent in one of the most rent-burdened communities in NYC could have possibly been unpopular?" she tweeted, linking to an article by Business Insider.

I've discussed the last point at length on here. See it happen in SoCal all the time.

:cry I don't like AOC cuz she wants to tax the super rich I vicariously live through :cry

[midnightpulp]

dp

[hater]

:tu love this chick

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/marklevinshow/status/1101214396561440770

[DMC]

:lmao There's absolutely nothing radical about AOC. Republicans are actually the bigger "socialists." They just prefer to socialize the cost of military bases in no-name countries and wars with goat farmers.

Military spending isn't a socialist endeavor :lol

[DMC]

More:



I've discussed the last point at length on here. See it happen in SoCal all the time.

:cry I don't like AOC cuz she wants to tax the super rich I vicariously live through :cry

She still thinks it's a giveaway. It was, she gave away 26 billion.

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1101240215715295233

:corn:

[spurraider21]

https://twitter.com/marklevinshow/status/1101214396561440770
yes i remember that time she said "nobody should ever eat hamburgers ever again." such a hypocrite!

[spurraider21]

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1101240215715295233

:corn:
:lmao the coolidge reagan foundation filed a complaint :lmao

i've never seen a political party this terrified of a freshman member of congress

[midnightpulp]

Military spending isn't a socialist endeavor :lol

The cost of it is socialized across tax payers. I just find the drum beating for military spending from conservatives ironic when they're so against healthcare and other social programs being tax payer funded in the exact same way. "Why shud I gotta pay fer the healthcare of dem lazy welfare moochers?" Well, why should I have to pay for a fuckin' base in Saudi Arabia or the UK (who doesn't need any help with their national defense)? And no, I don't believe these 600 some military installations across the world "protect me."

[Pavlov]

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1101240215715295233

:corn:Nothingburger.

[midnightpulp]

She still thinks it's a giveaway. It was, she gave away 26 billion.

There was a half-billion dollar grant. The 26 billion in tax revenue was simply a projection. And that number was over 25 years. No guarantee Amazon is the still the force they are even a decade from now.

[RandomGuy]

Lol you would.

How Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Won the Cohen Hearing
Too many representatives chose to bloviate instead of interrogate — except for one.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/opinion/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-cohen-hearing.html


Outside your information bubble where everyone is telling you to think she is dumb, not everyone will buy into that delusion. Don't sweat it, and have another glass, the kool-aid is just fine.

[RandomGuy]

1098240118081482752

And nowhere in the video did she endorse the position to not have kids, so bringing that up is a moot point.

Mr Howse is correct.

The reality of many tax giveaways is that they tend to hamstring the government entities that give them away without understanding the cost accounting/economic aspects, that MS. Cortez does here.

[RandomGuy]

She still thinks it's a giveaway. It was, she gave away 26 billion.

No, she didn't. Feel free to support that assertion.

More factless bullshittery.

[Pavlov]

Nope. NYC is going to dry up and be forgotten as a city now.

[rmt]

I don't see how you guys can continue to spin that much tax revenue lost.

[Pavlov]

I don't see how you guys can continue to spin that much tax revenue lost.I think there are plenty of revenue-generating projects that will be located in LIC in the near future.

[Spurminator]

I don't see how you guys can continue to spin that much tax revenue lost.

Tell the people who live in the district.

[rmt]

Tell the people who live in the district.

It's not just the district - the state lost taxes too.

[Spurminator]

yes i remember that time she said "nobody should ever eat hamburgers ever again." such a hypocrite!

"raging against cow farts"

[Spurminator]

It's not just the district - the state lost taxes too.

AOC doesn't represent the state of NY, and neither does the state congressman who started the pushback against Amazon.

If my rent is doubling because of a real estate boom caused by a new HQ popping up in a place where there's no room for it, what the fuck do I care if Utica, NY, gets more tax revenue?

[Will Hunting]

It's not just the district - the state lost taxes too.
Rochester and Binghampton are more than welcome to offer whatever tax blowjobs available if they want the state tax revenue from Amazon.

Unfortunately for them Amazon has no fucking interest in HQ2 being in the middle of a hollowed out rust belt shithole.

[midnightpulp]

I don't see how you guys can continue to spin that much tax revenue lost.

It's a 25 year projection. This would be like a city giving the headquarters of Blockbuster Video a healthy tax break to locate there in 1994, with Blockbuster - basing their projections off their current revenue, market share, growth - selling the "tax revenue" that they will generate over the next 25 years as the deal maker. Blockbuster was basically done a decade later.

"But Amazon is different!" We can't predict what the market will look like 10 years from now. A competitor could emerge and slap Amazon's shit. I'm sure Myspace had a bunch of nice projections that pointed up in 2006.

[Chris]

AOC dindunuffin'!

[Pavlov]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/bSdkuLDnrYheE/source.gif

[Will Hunting]

^:lmao

[Spurminator]

:lol

[Will Hunting]

:lmao the coolidge reagan foundation filed a complaint :lmao

i've never seen a political party this terrified of a freshman member of congress
The amount of AOCs in congress is only going to increase too. By 2024 there'll probably be 30-40 other obnoxiously progressive millennials in the house with a few in the Senate too.

Republicans are going to be losing their shit :lol

Dems still need more over-the-top bombastic irritants though. Jim Jordan's sexual abuse scandal should have gotten brought up yesterday.

[midnightpulp]

AOC doesn't represent the state of NY, and neither does the state congressman who started the pushback against Amazon.

If my rent is doubling because of a real estate boom caused by a new HQ popping up in a place where there's no room for it, what the fuck do I care if Utica, NY, gets more tax revenue?

She still doesn't get it :lol. Even after I posted the links to the town hall meetings the district held about the deal. The residents were against it. They are where the buck stops. To put in terms a conservative can understand, the state and city of New York are like the federal government. The wards/districts within the city are like states, with councilmen acting as defacto governors of their districts. This prevents the city from overreach, just like states rights theoretically prevent federal government overreach.

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1101247932131491842

[Chris]

yikes


https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1101223632360083456

[Pavlov]

yikes


https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1101223632360083456STRIKE THOSE WORDS BACK TO KENYA OR WHEREVER

[Will Hunting]

Sorry but the "some of my best friends are black" card has been something that racists have used for years.

Never thought I'd see it used during a congressional hearing though.

[Chris]

This is her twitter profile pic and you could use it for every bat shit crazy story about her :lol


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/923274881197895680/AbHcStkl_400x400.jpg

[Pavlov]

This is her twitter profile pic and you could use it for every bat shit crazy story about her :lol


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/923274881197895680/AbHcStkl_400x400.jpg#STCanadianSupermodelGoyfriend

[Nathan89]

yikes


https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1101223632360083456

Yikes if you are black and have a different opinion then get called a token. Seems like a racist thing to do imo.

[Spurminator]

Yikes if you are black and have a different opinion then get called a token. Seems like a racist thing to do imo.

That's not what happened.

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

Yikes if you are black and have a different opinion then get called a token. Seems like a racist thing to do imo.
Simple Chris and I Am Nathan both not getting it :lmao

[Will Hunting]

She got called a token because she was being used as a token.

No one with any self respect would get used as a prop the way she did.

[Chris]

Yikes if you are black and have a different opinion then get called a token. Seems like a racist thing to do imo.

It's incredibly racist and insulting to that particular person, but no one from the Left on this board will admit it. They prefer to do the troll thing.

[Random Black Chick]

Oh lawdy it’s mighty kind of you white folks to be supporting me and Massa Trump.

Massa Meadows told me dat I’d get extra cawnbread if I didn’t say nuffin bout day time Massa Trump called me n!gger.

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

It's incredibly racist and insulting to that particular person, but no one from the Left on this board will admit it. They prefer to do the troll thing.
https://i.imgflip.com/2uxgyi.jpg

[ElNono]

Military spending isn't a socialist endeavor :lol

how is it not? It's intrinsically socialist, regardless if legally authorized by the Constitution...

[Will Hunting]

Our military spending has become a jobs program for hundreds of thousands of people. One of the most socialist things this country does is create artificial demand that allows Lockheed Martin to have 100k employees.

[ElNono]

I don't see how you guys can continue to spin that much tax revenue lost.

this is pretty rich for somebody that was first in line cheerleading for the tax cuts...

[Spurminator]

Our military spending has become a jobs program for hundreds of thousands of people.

Jobs and pension.

[ElNono]

Jobs and pension.

Jobs and pension and healthcare.

[Chris]

"America takes care of its veterans. Grrr! Arghh!"

[Spurminator]

Jobs and pension and healthcare.

Oh my

[Spurminator]

"America takes care of its veterans. Grrr! Arghh!"

No one's saying it's a bad thing. It's just socialism.

[Spurminator]

You should consider the military, Chris. Get out from under the parents' roof, interact with real people, toughen up, make some money eventually... contribute something positive to your country? What do you have to lose?

[ElNono]

Our military spending has become a jobs program for hundreds of thousands of people. One of the most socialist things this country does is create artificial demand that allows Lockheed Martin to have 100k employees.

Even if you take out the subcontracting (which would be pretty disingenuous, but still), it's a government program 100% taxpayer funded, for the well-being/security of the general population. In other words it's the 'security safety net' for every American.

It's a socialist endeavor to a T, IMO, the only part where capitalism comes in is when subcontractors make money out of the government contracts.

[Chris]

You should consider the viability of suicide.

[midnightpulp]

"America takes care of its veterans. Grrr! Arghh!"

How does 600 bases around the world and wars with goat herders help Americans (Trump was against those wars. Yes, Trump good now in that regard)? How does trillions spent on conventional weapons (which are an outdated national defense concept since the proliferation of nukes) help Americans? We even have a base in Saudi Arabia, the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world :lol

The great Ike warned about this shit.

[Chris]

How does 600 bases around the world and wars with goat herders help Americans (Trump was against those wars. Yes, Trump good now in that regard)? How does trillions spent on conventional weapons (which are an outdated national defense concept since the proliferation of nukes) help Americans? We even have a base in Saudi Arabia, the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world :lol

The great Ike warned about this shit.

Not arguing about any of that or the military industrial complex. The people who were losing their minds when Trump started pulling of Syria.

[FrostKing]

How does 600 bases around the world and wars with goat herders help Americans (Trump was against those wars. Yes, Trump good now in that regard)? How does trillions spent on conventional weapons (which are an outdated national defense concept since the proliferation of nukes) help Americans? We even have a base in Saudi Arabia, the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world :lol

The great Ike warned about this shit.
https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jul/12/nicholas-burns/do-european-allies-pay-us-25-billion-yearly-keep-t/

:: Do European allies pay U.S. $2.5 billion yearly to keep troops there?
:: Would it cost more to bring the troops home?

USA should have never found itself in this position but RIGHT NOW....do you really want those "trained killers" out on our streets and likely many of them unemployed? Over time they would fill the jobs immigrants are. Such a ridiculous predicament America has cornered itself in.

[DMC]

No, she didn't. Feel free to support that assertion.

More factless bullshittery.

:lol Loses a long battle after having won it for 25,000 jobs
:lol gas lights the forum to suggest it's for the best
:lol "there'll be other opportunities"
:lol mathematically challenged liberal wealthy looking out for the poor

[DMC]

"Incredibly, I have heard city and state elected officials who were opponents of the project claim that Amazon was getting $3 billion in government subsidies that could have been better spent on housing or transportation. This is either a blatant untruth or fundamental ignorance of basic math by a group of elected officials. The city and state 'gave' Amazon nothing. Amazon was to build their headquarters with union jobs and pay the city and state $27 billion in revenues. The city, through existing as-of-right tax credits, and the state through Excelsior Tax credits - a program approved by the same legislators railing against it - would provide up to $3 billion in tax relief, IF Amazon created the 25,000-40,000 jobs and thus generated $27 billion in revenue. You don't need to be the State's Budget Director to know that a nine to one return on your investment is a winner.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-budget-director-robert-mujica-regarding-amazon

[DMC]

https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jul/12/nicholas-burns/do-european-allies-pay-us-25-billion-yearly-keep-t/

:: Do European allies pay U.S. $2.5 billion yearly to keep troops there?
:: Would it cost more to bring the troops home?

USA should have never found itself in this position but RIGHT NOW....do you really want those "trained killers" out on our streets and likely many of them unemployed? Over time they would fill the jobs immigrants are. Such a ridiculous predicament America has cornered itself in.

Trained killers?

[DMC]

how is it not? It's intrinsically socialist, regardless if legally authorized by the Constitution...

You ever try to walk onto a military base? Socialist endeavors are community access endeavors like public parks and such. Tax and spend for the military is a signature of a conservative war machine that feeds private businesses, not socialism. The term "military industrial complex" is anything but socialism. The military doesn't control the means of production - their assets come from private industry. They do not distribute any goods, they have no product. You cannot hire the military, they will not work for or answer to the general public.

[SouthTexasRancher]

The plain and simple fact is AOC is a walking, talking Cluster Fuck.

[ElNono]

You ever try to walk onto a military base? Socialist endeavors are community access endeavors like public parks and such. Tax and spend for the military is a signature of a conservative war machine that feeds private businesses, not socialism. The term "military industrial complex" is anything but socialism. The military doesn't control the means of production - their assets come from private industry. They do not distribute any goods, they have no product. You cannot hire the military, they will not work for or answer to the general public.

That's ridiculous. Access to buildings has nothing to do with socialism. You couldn't walk into the KGB building in communist Russia either, yet nobody would doubt for a second to call it communism. You probably can't walk into Maduro's banana republic palace right now.

In addition, their assets come both from the private industry AND government. Los Alamos is not a private sector business, it's a government owned and funded lab. The first ever nukes were produced in it's entirety there. And you can ask Hiroshima and Nagasaki what that product looked like. Coming to more recent days, the NSA is well known for producing exploits (that were leaked a while back) to access adversary systems, in-house. That they don't sell them or distribute them, doesn't make it any less of a product.

That the government opts to subcontract a lot of the production doesn't turn all the system upside down into, suddenly, a capitalist system. A lot of the R&D some of these companies obtain to build those products were actually funded by the taxpayers (and, I did admit that there's a capitalist component in those transactions).

Let's see a basic definition of socialism:
A political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The military is outright owned and regulated by our representatives, thus by extension, the community. They might not take direct orders from the general public, but they sure as heck take orders from the representatives the general public put in place, AND get paid from the general public's taxed monies.

Communism is the system that can't divorce the political from the economic side, that's not the case with socialism. That's why there's Social-Democracies all around the world, where social programs live next to capitalism and a democratic political system.

And lastly, if your contention holds true, then Medicare, Medicaid, Foodstamps, none of those are socialism either. They don't control the means of production. They don't distribute any good, or have a product. Under that premise, Medicare for all is not socialism?

[RandomGuy]

You should consider the viability of suicide.

You should consider the viability of our lord and savior, satan.

[RandomGuy]

The plain and simple fact is AOC is a walking, talking Cluster Fuck.

... who happens to be running rings around Trump party officials and conservatives on social media. What does it say about conservative politicians that they are getting pwned so hard by "a walking, talking Cluster Fuck?

[RandomGuy]

No, she didn't. Feel free to support that assertion [about $26 billion dollars]

More factless bullshittery.


:lol Loses a long battle after having won it for 25,000 jobs
:lol gas lights the forum to suggest it's for the best
:lol "there'll be other opportunities"
:lol mathematically challenged liberal wealthy looking out for the poor

[smiley][derision]

Taking a page from spurminator's playbook. You're upping your game. SAD!

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. [smiley][derision] doesn't really count.

If you had anything to back up your claim, you could provide it easily. You chose not to.

The funniest part is that you are trying to make fun of the concept of opportunity cost, as if your mockery makes the concept invalid.
I'm sure that would come as a surprise to people with PhD's in economics or accounting.

"holy shit did you see this new academic paper by this guy on basket ball forum? HE SAID LOL!! Our understanding of the economy is turned upside down" :rollin

[CosmicCowboy]

... who happens to be running rings around Trump party officials and conservatives on social media. What does it say about conservative politicians that they are getting pwned so hard by "a walking, talking Cluster Fuck?

Being snarky on social media does not necessarily equal good politics or good policy. There is no doubt the media has given her more power than is justified by her position as a newly elected junior representative because her constant stream of inflammatory comments have been deemed newsworthy. The irony is she is forcing the 2020 political discussion so far left that the candidate that ultimately survives the primary will probably have taken such far left positions to pass that hurdle that they will be crippled in the general election having to defend them. The attack ads will be vicious.

[pgardn]

Being snarky on social media does not necessarily equal good politics or good policy. There is no doubt the media has given her more power than is justified by her position as a newly elected junior representative because her constant stream of inflammatory comments have been deemed newsworthy. The irony is she is forcing the 2020 political discussion so far left that the candidate that ultimately survives the primary will probably have taken such far left positions to pass that hurdle that they will be crippled in the general election having to defend them. The attack ads will be vicious.

Sounds like

Trump.

Only he holds a bit more important position

[DMC]

That's ridiculous. Access to buildings has nothing to do with socialism. You couldn't walk into the KGB building in communist Russia either, yet nobody would doubt for a second to call it communism. You probably can't walk into Maduro's banana republic palace right now.

In addition, their assets come both from the private industry AND government. Los Alamos is not a private sector business, it's a government owned and funded lab. The first ever nukes were produced in it's entirety there. And you can ask Hiroshima and Nagasaki what that product looked like. Coming to more recent days, the NSA is well known for producing exploits (that were leaked a while back) to access adversary systems, in-house. That they don't sell them or distribute them, doesn't make it any less of a product.

That the government opts to subcontract a lot of the production doesn't turn all the system upside down into, suddenly, a capitalist system. A lot of the R&D some of these companies obtain to build those products were actually funded by the taxpayers (and, I did admit that there's a capitalist component in those transactions).

Let's see a basic definition of socialism:
A political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The military is outright owned and regulated by our representatives, thus by extension, the community. They might not take direct orders from the general public, but they sure as heck take orders from the representatives the general public put in place, AND get paid from the general public's taxed monies.

Communism is the system that can't divorce the political from the economic side, that's not the case with socialism. That's why there's Social-Democracies all around the world, where social programs live next to capitalism and a democratic political system.

And lastly, if your contention holds true, then Medicare, Medicaid, Foodstamps, none of those are socialism either. They don't control the means of production. They don't distribute any good, or have a product. Under that premise, Medicare for all is not socialism?

You gave the definition then you set out to debunk it. Community as a whole does not equal "our representatives". Congress and the POTUS controls the military, the community has no say. Otherwise martial law could never be in effect. What part of socialism allows you to opt out? What part of socialism puts you in prison for quitting your job? What part has you invading another country to secure oil fields for capitalists who never served a day?

The programs you mentioned are not departments, these are programs. Do you think the Dept of Agriculture is a socialist department? I agree some aspects of military life resemble socialism, like living on a base (not free btw) but that's about as far as it goes. If you receive separate rations and live off base, you eat off base most of the time. You have to pay for your uniforms even though you get a small allowance. There are private contractors working beside you most of the time especially on new platforms. There are GS level employees overseeing a lot of what the military departments are doing. They make exponentially more than the soldiers, sailors and airmen doing basically the same jobs. That's hardly socialism. Again, it is made up of volunteers who come and go. Socialism isn't.

[CosmicCowboy]

Sounds like

Trump.

Only he holds a bit more important position

No argument there.


It is shaping up to be another election with two bad choices.

[RandomGuy]

Being snarky on social media does not necessarily equal good politics or good policy. There is no doubt the media has given her more power than is justified by her position as a newly elected junior representative because her constant stream of inflammatory comments have been deemed newsworthy. The irony is she is forcing the 2020 political discussion so far left that the candidate that ultimately survives the primary will probably have taken such far left positions to pass that hurdle that they will be crippled in the general election having to defend them. The attack ads will be vicious.

#oblivious

That is what your propaganda overlords have told you to believe. Honestly, I am not going to disabuse you of anything here.

You fuckers already say centrists are "communists". At some point, it becomes the boy who cried wolf. The independents are going to quit coming 'round. Already have if the polls are accurate.

Washington elites of BOTH sides overestimate how conservative the country is, with Trump party officials overestimating that by a very, very wide margin.

Trump opened the populist genie bottle, and the former Republican party bought into it, forgetting the lesson of history that populism is just as much, if not more, of a left trope. It is like letting your opponent choose the battlefield.

The Trump party will pay the price at the polls, and has fully enabled that shift by being so extremely right as to be MORE unattractive than any cliched cry of "muh socialism".

[CosmicCowboy]

#oblivious

That is what your propaganda overlords have told you to believe. Honestly, I am not going to disabuse you of anything here.

You fuckers already say centrists are "communists". At some point, it becomes the boy who cried wolf. The independents are going to quit coming 'round. Already have if the polls are accurate.

Washington elites of BOTH sides overestimate how conservative the country is, with Trump party officials overestimating that by a very, very wide margin.

Trump opened the populist genie bottle, and the former Republican party bought into it, forgetting the lesson of history that populism is just as much, if not more, of a left trope. It is like letting your opponent choose the battlefield.

The Trump party will pay the price at the polls, and has fully enabled that shift by being so extremely right as to be MORE unattractive than any cliched cry of "muh socialism".

:lol

You are one to talk about "Propaganda overlords" telling you what to believe.

You have swallowed the blue pill and look to the radical echo chamber to validate your beliefs.

I have said before that I don't like trump and sincerely hope someone primaries him, but IMHO the country isn't ready to jump off the green dream cliff yet.

[pgardn]

No argument there.


It is shaping up to be another election with two bad choices.

Except one bad choice has proven himself utterly incompetent at THE job.

When the tide turns, it could get quite ugly.
Oh no's, socialism!
I'll take it over crony capitalism from a liar.

[CosmicCowboy]

I am confident Biden could beat Trump, but IMHO Biden won't survive the primary. The lefts version of the "Tea Party" appears to be in control of the message.

[CosmicCowboy]

Except one bad choice has proven himself utterly incompetent at THE job.

When the tide turns, it could get quite ugly.
Oh no's, socialism!
I'll take it over crony capitalism from a liar.

No argument that Trump has been a disaster as a President, but the green dream would be an even greater, more permanent disaster if actually enacted.

[Trill Clinton]

Being snarky on social media does not necessarily equal good politics or good policy. There is no doubt the media has given her more power than is justified by her position as a newly elected junior representative because her constant stream of inflammatory comments have been deemed newsworthy. The irony is she is forcing the 2020 political discussion so far left that the candidate that ultimately survives the primary will probably have taken such far left positions to pass that hurdle that they will be crippled in the general election having to defend them. The attack ads will be vicious.

I think conservatives are giving her legitimacy and "power" due to how whatever she says and does y'all scream bloody murder over it. It's just like how trump triggered libs all over again except not as bad.

[pgardn]

I am confident Biden could beat Trump, but IMHO Biden won't survive the primary. The lefts version of the "Tea Party" appears to be in control of the message.

We sort of agree. Red team did not control their boy. Now you get candidates lining up against his stupidity and angry.

State of Emergency due to Green House gases and climate change should be interesting.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think conservatives are giving her legitimacy and "power" due to how whatever she says and does y'all scream bloody murder over it. It's just like how trump triggered libs all over again except not as bad.

The coverage has been pretty equal on both sides of the political spectrum. You realize AOC is attacking and threatening moderate Democrats as well, don't you?

[pgardn]

In other news, the board continues to try and pin down socialism since red team has used the term whenever.

[Trill Clinton]

The coverage has been pretty equal on both sides of the political spectrum. You realize AOC is attacking and threatening moderate Democrats as well, don't you?

Are you talking about the gun bill list?

Warning them is not an attack or threat and I'm all for it. I'm all for holding elected officials accountable which is what she's doing.

[Will Hunting]

I still don’t understand the idea that candidates are crippled by “far left” ideas like universal healthcare, higher taxes on the rich, or actually addressing climate change in a general election.

Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are two of the most bland centrists in the history of the Democratic Party and they both performed horribly in a general election. The Clintonian strategy of running just a little to the left of the tea party led to Conservatives dominating both houses of Congress, SCOTUS, gubernatorial elections, and state legislature races. It’s abundantly clear that the Dems need to get back to running candidates with strong ideals instead of careful politicians who need to put their finger in the air to see how the political winds are blowing before they’re willing to say anything.

[CosmicCowboy]

I am interested to see how the far left can make the numbers work to pay for the 50-92 trillion of new programs that are proposed. Just "taxing the rich" won't cut it.

[Winehole23]

Cocaine Mitch mentions the DSA by name in the well of the Senate, giving it much greater visibiliity than it would have all on its own.

Say whatever you want about the DSA, the policies it offers are very popular among voters.

Republicans' knee jerk demonization of Democrats as socialists could finally backfire among voters weary of incrementalist bullshit.

1101147793761148928

[RandomGuy]

I still don’t understand the idea that candidates are crippled by “far left” ideas like universal healthcare, higher taxes on the rich, or actually addressing climate change in a general election.

Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are two of the most bland centrists in the history of the Democratic Party and they both performed horribly in a general election. The Clintonian strategy of running just a little to the left of the tea party led to Conservatives dominating both houses of Congress, SCOTUS, gubernatorial elections, and state legislature races. It’s abundantly clear that the Dems need to get back to running candidates with strong ideals instead of careful politicians who need to put their finger in the air to see how the political winds are blowing before they’re willing to say anything.

Agreed.

The "far left" charge is simply the right trying to set the narrative. The people leveling that charge most, will be the ones who consume the Fox "news" diet of pablum, with CosmicCowboy being a prime example of that demographic, both age and income-wise.

Standard information warfare, and conservatives are pretty good at it, as it has worked for them in the past. Liberals have started getting a lot more savvy in that regard, so the efficacy of the strategy will wane.

What is funny is that the right, by being so extreme, will allow the left maneuver room to scoot slightly leftward, which will intensify the screechy charges of "socialism", in a self-defeating session of target practice at their own feet.

Conservatives have hidden behind the word and the assumption that "socialism bad" so long, their ability to make the case for why its bad has atrophied. Ask any of them to give a working definition, and then ask them to differentiate between that definition and outright communism. They can't tell the difference, and that is damning.

[RandomGuy]

I am interested to see how the far left can make the numbers work to pay for the 50-92 trillion of new programs that are proposed. Just "taxing the rich" won't cut it.

(shrugs)

What are the cost of the alternatives? The right loves to lie about that.

Let me take a page from your playbook here.

The alternatives to these programs will cost $100-$300 trillion dollars.

Why do you want to damage our economy like that?

[Will Hunting]

Agreed.

The "far left" charge is simply the right trying to set the narrative. The people leveling that charge most, will be the ones who consume the Fox "news" diet of pablum, with CosmicCowboy being a prime example of that demographic, both age and income-wise.

Standard information warfare, and conservatives are pretty good at it, as it has worked for them in the past. Liberals have started getting a lot more savvy in that regard, so the efficacy of the strategy will wane.

What is funny is that the right, by being so extreme, will allow the left maneuver room to scoot slightly leftward, which will intensify the screechy charges of "socialism", in a self-defeating session of target practice at their own feet.

Conservatives have hidden behind the word and the assumption that "socialism bad" so long, their ability to make the case for why its bad has atrophied. Ask any of them to give a working definition, and then ask them to differentiate between that definition and outright communism. They can't tell the difference, and that is damning.
The Dems have more or less “taken the bait” for the last few decades by backing off of popular views like universal healthcare to avoid being called socialists or leftists by Fox News and the result has been bland, eggheaded candidates like John Kerry completely devoid of any ideals.

They’re finally responding the right way by more or less saying I really don’t give a fuck if you want to label me with words like socialist, this is what helps Americans the most and it’s what I believe in.

[CosmicCowboy]

Agreed.

The "far left" charge is simply the right trying to set the narrative. The people leveling that charge most, will be the ones who consume the Fox "news" diet of pablum, with CosmicCowboy being a prime example of that demographic, both age and income-wise.

Standard information warfare, and conservatives are pretty good at it, as it has worked for them in the past. Liberals have started getting a lot more savvy in that regard, so the efficacy of the strategy will wane.

What is funny is that the right, by being so extreme, will allow the left maneuver room to scoot slightly leftward, which will intensify the screechy charges of "socialism", in a self-defeating session of target practice at their own feet.

Conservatives have hidden behind the word and the assumption that "socialism bad" so long, their ability to make the case for why its bad has atrophied. Ask any of them to give a working definition, and then ask them to differentiate between that definition and outright communism. They can't tell the difference, and that is damning.

I have no doubt that the inevitable trend is towards the government growing and growing and promising more free stuff as the demographic changes and more and more of the populace demands and votes in "free" stuff. Eventually you will run out of other peoples money.

You guys will deserve what you get. I hate that my kids and grandkids will have to live with that escalating shit show but hopefully I can leave them a few million to help them survive it. AOC was right that it is a bad time to have kids, just for the wrong reasons.

[RandomGuy]

The Dems have more or less “taken the bait” for the last few decades by backing off of popular views like universal healthcare to avoid being called socialists or leftists by Fox News and the result has been bland, eggheaded candidates like John Kerry completely devoid of any ideals.

They’re finally responding the right way by more or less saying I really don’t give a fuck if you want to label me with words like socialist, this is what helps Americans the most and it’s what I believe in.

That is pretty much what I have been hoping they would do for decades. Took long enough.

Left policies help more people, and make the economy better in more ways than anything the right has offered in the last 30 years. The left has no shortage of good ideas, and the right has "tax cuts for the rich", which is the easiest thing to disprove in shorthand, "KANSAS".

Once you take away that old saw, they have nothing. It is sad/funny to watch.

https://i.imgur.com/KmIbx7K.gif

[RandomGuy]

I have no doubt that the inevitable trend is towards the government growing and growing and promising more free stuff as the demographic changes and more and more of the populace demands and votes in "free" stuff. Eventually you will run out of other peoples money.

You guys will deserve what you get. I hate that my kids and grandkids will have to live with that escalating shit show but hopefully I can leave them a few million to help them survive it. AOC was right that it is a bad time to have kids, just for the wrong reasons.

The costs of doing nothing outweigh the costs of doing something. The problem with "running out of other people's money" is that taxes for such things simply go right back out into the economy, and bounce around creating more GDP. if you understood economics you would know that, which is bloody ironic.

We will get a country that means you can go to the hospital, or encounter a sudden bill and not go homeless. The right will scream bloody murder at this, and in the end discredit themselves.

Your preferred policies cost our society more than anything the left has ever proposed.

[CosmicCowboy]

The costs of doing nothing outweigh the costs of doing something. The problem with "running out of other people's money" is that taxes for such things simply go right back out into the economy, and bounce around creating more GDP. if you understood economics you would know that, which is bloody ironic.

We will get a country that means you can go to the hospital, or encounter a sudden bill and not go homeless. The right will scream bloody murder at this, and in the end discredit themselves.

Your preferred policies cost our society more than anything the left has ever proposed.

We are currently running trillion dollar annual deficits which is the fault of both parties. No argument there. What do you propose to cut in order to provide all the new benefits? Do you propose to just monetize the debt? It's the only way I see it getting done.

[Winehole23]

Nobody ever asked how we would pay for wars in Afghanistan and Iran, $2.4 trillion so far. Doesn't seem to have wrecked the economy.

RG has a point about government spending, even more so when it gets spent in the US. There's a multiplier effect.

Seems like you've fallen prey to the composition fallacy. The US government isn't like a household.

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't have the time to debate Modern Monetary Theory in here, but that is clearly where the discussion is going. There is plenty information available on the internet to cover that issue if one really cares to pursue it.

[Spurs Homer]

I have no doubt that the inevitable trend is towards the government growing and growing and promising more free stuff as the demographic changes and more and more of the populace demands and votes in "free" stuff. Eventually you will run out of other peoples money.

You guys will deserve what you get. I hate that my kids and grandkids will have to live with that escalating shit show but hopefully I can leave them a few million to help them survive it. AOC was right that it is a bad time to have kids, just for the wrong reasons.


Those millions you leave for them will not be worth much when they will not have a livable planet to spend it on.

[hater]

We are spending a trillion in our bloated military that pays $200 for a set of forks :lol

Id cut that shit in half to start with. Wed still be outspending all other countries.

[Spurminator]

You should consider the viability of suicide.

There you go projecting again.

[RandomGuy]

We are currently running trillion dollar annual deficits which is the fault of both parties. No argument there. What do you propose to cut in order to provide all the new benefits? Do you propose to just monetize the debt? It's the only way I see it getting done.

"both parties".

How many Democrats voted for that massive tax cut?

[CosmicCowboy]

"both parties".

How many Democrats voted for that massive tax cut?

:lmao

Trying to blame all the deficits on the tax cuts. That's just stupid.

You completely ducked the issue of how to realistically pay for the green dream. Taxing the shit out of the rich won't do it.

[RandomGuy]

We are currently running trillion dollar annual deficits which is the fault of both parties.


"both parties".

How many Democrats voted for that massive tax cut?



:lmao

Trying to blame all the deficits on the tax cuts. That's just stupid.

You completely ducked the issue of how to realistically pay for the green dream. Taxing the shit out of the rich won't do it.

I am merely trying to see if your claim holds up. Either it does, or it doesn't. The only thing that should worry you, is if it is easily shown to be false.


"both parties".

How many Democrats voted for that massive tax cut?

[RandomGuy]

:lmao

Trying to blame all the deficits on the tax cuts. That's just stupid.

For the record: All the deficits are not the fault of the tax cuts. Let me know if you have any other strawman lies about me. I will be happy to set the record straight. Unlike you seem to, I care what is true.

[CosmicCowboy]

For the record: All the deficits are not the fault of the tax cuts. Let me know if you have any other strawman lies about me. I will be happy to set the record straight. Unlike you seem to, I care what is true.

Good. Set the record straight.

We are currently running trillion dollar annual deficits which is the fault of both parties.

true or false?

[RandomGuy]

We are currently running trillion dollar annual deficits which is the fault of both parties.

To be clear and fair, are both parties equally culpable in your view?

"both parties" is a trivial claim, but can be a bit misleading if the causes of said deficits are much more clearly the fault of one party or the other.

If they aren't both equal, who is more responsible?

[RandomGuy]

Good. Set the record straight.

We are currently running trillion dollar annual deficits which is the fault of both parties.

true or false?

True. As noted.. .that is a somewhat trivial claim. A little like saying that colored glass is composed of both dye and glass. (colored glass generally has dye concentrations measured in parts per billion)

[CosmicCowboy]

True. As noted.. .that is a somewhat trivial claim. A little like saying that colored glass is composed of both dye and glass. (colored glass generally has dye concentrations measured in parts per billion)

It depends how far back you want to go and who to blame. Who gets credit for Social Security and Medicare? What is the biggest driver of spending?

[CosmicCowboy]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpg

[baseline bum]

The coverage has been pretty equal on both sides of the political spectrum. You realize AOC is attacking and threatening moderate Democrats as well, don't you?

Nominating a moderate Democrat is what gave us Trump. I'll pass on making that fuck up again.

[CosmicCowboy]

OOPs. That was 2010

Here is 2015

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/uploads/total_spending_pie%2C__2015_enacted.png

[CosmicCowboy]

here is 2017, broken down a little differently

https://ifitdontshineitaintmine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/federal-spending-pie-chart-chartreuse-us-spending-pie-chart-awesome-best-debt-from-gov-fraud-waste-amp-abuse-government-federal-2015.jpg

[baseline bum]

I still don’t understand the idea that candidates are crippled by “far left” ideas like universal healthcare, higher taxes on the rich, or actually addressing climate change in a general election.

Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are two of the most bland centrists in the history of the Democratic Party and they both performed horribly in a general election. The Clintonian strategy of running just a little to the left of the tea party led to Conservatives dominating both houses of Congress, SCOTUS, gubernatorial elections, and state legislature races. It’s abundantly clear that the Dems need to get back to running candidates with strong ideals instead of careful politicians who need to put their finger in the air to see how the political winds are blowing before they’re willing to say anything.

:bobo

God forbid if the Democrats message in 2020 is just "Well I'm not (overtly) racist" like in 2016.

[Will Hunting]

Nominating a moderate Democrat is what gave us Trump. I'll pass on making that fuck up again.
The moderate Democrat didn't just give us Trump, it gave us Bush in 2000 and again in 2004.

Everyone cites Slick Willy as why "moderate Democrats" are such a great model because he won two elections in a landslide however he had Ross Perot, a shitty incumbent (I don't have any issues with the guy, but his own party hated him for stupid reasons), and a shitty re-election challenge who made that possible. He was also just a naturally gifted politician who would have been a very electable candidate no matter what his views were.

Bill Clinton is also what began the trend of Democrats getting sodomized in midterm elections and every Democratic president having a 2 year window to get anything done before having to deal with a huge Republican majority in the house. It's not a coincidence that midterms depend more on your base being energized and Democrats haven't been able to spark consistent turnout in midterm elections ever since the DNC became the Clinton party of "No ideas, just talk about how the Republicans are bad".

[Winehole23]

I don't have the time to debate Modern Monetary Theory in here, but that is clearly where the discussion is going. There is plenty information available on the internet to cover that issue if one really cares to pursue it.You always run out of time to discuss when it comes down to the details of whatever you're pretending to discuss.

Fwiw, I'm not an MMT guy, but I did post a couple of relevant articles about it in the "shorting treasuries" thread if you can possibly find the time to read and respond to a topic you brought up and pretend to care about.

(CC runs away waving his hands)

[Spurminator]

1101537832311709696

[CosmicCowboy]

You always run out of time to discuss when it comes down to the details of whatever you're pretending to discuss.

Fwiw, I'm not an MMT guy, but I did post a couple of relevant articles about it in the "shorting treasuries" thread if you can possibly find the time to read and respond to a topic you brought up and pretend to care about.

(CC runs away waving his hands)

:lmao

I recognize the futility of trying to change the minds of true believers on the green dream team. The flaws of MMT are well documented and apparent to anyone with half a brain.

[Winehole23]

I posted some of the main criticisms of MMT myself. Today.

(CC struts around like a pigeon who thinks he won at chess because he knocked over some pieces and shat on the board.)

[Winehole23]

CC seamlessly circular as always: takes his own points for granted, but has no time to respond to folks who believe different or who point out that CC has given no support whatsoever for his own take.

Demands other back up their bs, backs away when challenged, often excusing himself by saying he's pressed for time.

Now watch him reply to this.

[RandomGuy]

It depends how far back you want to go and who to blame. Who gets credit for Social Security and Medicare? What is the biggest driver of spending?

Social security and medicare are fully paid for, by separate taxes. Congress has raided their trust funds.

We can start with the year 2000. Keep it simple, since some of the tax reforms in the first Bush era, as well as war in Iraq and Afghanistan originated there.

Care to tell me whose fault the Tax cuts under Bush were?

[Winehole23]

(In fairness, Obama extended them.)

[RandomGuy]

:lmao

I recognize the futility of trying to change the minds of true believers on the green dream team. The flaws of MMT are well documented and apparent to anyone with half a brain.

Let's see if the following changes your mind, I will take a page from your playbook here.


You just want to see children starving to death the in the streets because you THINK their parents are lazy.

or

You want policies that make as many old people homeless as possible, so you can have enough money for a 5th car.

Both are wild, unfair distortions of your position. which is the only way the right wing talks about this concept.

Quite frankly, I don't think you could accurately describe your opponents position.

If you can't even accurately describe what someone is saying, how can you know your criticisms are even valid?

[Winehole23]

(CC lurking longtime in this thread today, but hasn't time to reply.)

[Chris]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez threatens Democrat colleagues. She said "They'll go on a list" if they vote with Republicans.

[DMC]

CC seamlessly circular as always: takes his own points for granted, but has no time to respond to folks who believe different or who point out that CC has given no support whatsoever for his own take.

Demands other back up their bs, backs away when challenged, often excusing himself by saying he's pressed for time.

Now watch him reply to this.
Who the fuck are you talking to with the 3rd person narratives? You don't seem right in the head.

[koriwhat]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez threatens Democrat colleagues. She said "They'll go on a list" if they vote with Republicans.

just like a good little fascist tbh.

[CosmicCowboy]

(CC lurking longtime in this thread today, but hasn't time to reply.)

Good lord...get a fucking life.

My computer may have been showing me in this thread but I have been to two jobs and a funeral while you were getting hysterical over my lack of response.

And no, I'm not going to cut and paste multiple sources to "prove" my point that belief in MMT is quite similar to believing in the tooth fairy. The facts are easily available for those that wish learn more.

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/seanhannity/status/1101525826699444226

[Winehole23]

Who the fuck are you talking to with the 3rd person narratives? You don't seem right in the head.The offered rate for your psychological advice seems appropriate.

Lol your crankypants, semi-coherent ass calling out anyone else for being non compos mentis.


Do you project much?

[Winehole23]

Lol "who the fuck are you to be posting?!!@11*%1!!"

[Chris]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/yyc7U4gVbzy445A45p/giphy.gif?cid=3640f6095c79afae6267726977d619ec

[Winehole23]

^^^Chris's "look at me dance" is looking at AOC.

[midnightpulp]

I have no doubt that the inevitable trend is towards the government growing and growing and promising more free stuff as the demographic changes and more and more of the populace demands and votes in "free" stuff. Eventually you will run out of other peoples money.

You guys will deserve what you get. I hate that my kids and grandkids will have to live with that escalating shit show but hopefully I can leave them a few million to help them survive it. AOC was right that it is a bad time to have kids, just for the wrong reasons.

This is exaggeratingly alarmist. Let's look at some of the core ideas of the "increasingly radical leftist" Democratic party.

- Universal healthcare. This is bad why? Works in every other developed country in the world just fine. "B-B-But h-h-h-how are we gonna pay for it!" I think in combination with higher tax rates (on the wealthy and maybe a slight tax hike on the middle class, which will wind up paying for itself), universal healthcare supporters need to see that we are already spending the same amount of tax dollars per capita on healthcare as universal healthcare countries and ask, "Where is the money is going?" I've already speculated where the money is going. To pay for price gouged services, equipment, and medicine. The profit motive is fundamentally incompatible with "Do No Harm," as I've said.

- Higher marginal tax rates (and capital gains rates) on the very wealthy. Bad why? Worked post-New Deal/pre-Reagan fine. As we've discussed before, trickle down has had a 40 year trial. Bottom 90% growth flatlined. We can talk about globalization, technology, etc, etc, changing the economy all we want, but boiled down, the economy fully satisfied the conditions of supply side economics where the wealthy saw significant growth, and per the theory, it was supposed to neatly "trickle down" regardless of any marketplace changes. It didn't. It simply doesn't work.

- Addressing climate change. Bad why? The scientific consensus is that we need to address it. I'll buy that it's a "global conspiracy" to impose "ebil socialism and big gubbint" if you can show me some hard evidence that supports that idea. That said, I'm not a climate scientist, nor am I a dilettante blogger/youtuber who believes he's a climate scientist after reading a couple of Wikipedia articles and thinks he has the authority to state, "there is no crisis!" Yes, AOC's GND is optimistic, but that doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

- Immigration. We've come to agreement on a sensible policy in earlier discussion, which I think most Dems would favor.

Don't see how this "shit show" is going to be produced.

[Spurminator]

As long as your grandkids don't watch cable news for hours a day finding bullshit to be mad about, they're going to be fine, happy people.

[Pavlov]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/yyc7U4gVbzy445A45p/giphy.gif?cid=3640f6095c79afae6267726977d619ec"College girl dances"

WOW!

[Winehole23]

As long as your grandkids don't watch cable news for hours a day finding bullshit to be mad about, they're going to be fine, happy people.I recall inviting a close friend and his girlfriend for dinner one night.This was during my college days, back in the late 1980s or early 1990s.

They walked in. "How lovely," my dear friend's future wife said.

I had prepared a fancy dinner in a fully fancy, 19th century rental house. A hundred candles were blazing, in the fanciest possible candlabra in the dining room.

"I can't do it," my friend said.

"What", I said

He was like, " Get the lights up. Turn 'em on, I can't deal with this."

"This is what the past and the future have in common, " he said.

"What is that," I asked.

"Poor lighting."

[spurraider21]

This is exaggeratingly alarmist. Let's look at some of the core ideas of the "increasingly radical leftist" Democratic party.

- Universal healthcare. This is bad why? Works in every other developed country in the world just fine. "B-B-But h-h-h-how are we gonna pay for it!" I think in combination with higher tax rates (on the wealthy and maybe a slight tax hike on the middle class, which will wind up paying for itself), universal healthcare supporters need to see that we are already spending the same amount of tax dollars per capita on healthcare as universal healthcare countries and ask, "Where is the money is going?" I've already speculated where the money is going. To pay for price gouged services, equipment, and medicine. The profit motive is fundamentally incompatible with "Do No Harm," as I've said.

- Higher marginal tax rates (and capital gains rates) on the very wealthy. Bad why? Worked post-New Deal/pre-Reagan fine. As we've discussed before, trickle down has had a 40 year trial. Bottom 90% growth flatlined. We can talk about globalization, technology, etc, etc, changing the economy all we want, but boiled down, the economy fully satisfied the conditions of supply side economics where the wealthy saw significant growth, and per the theory, it was supposed to neatly "trickle down" regardless of any marketplace changes. It didn't. It simply doesn't work.

- Addressing climate change. Bad why? The scientific consensus is that we need to address it. I'll buy that it's a "global conspiracy" to impose "ebil socialism and big gubbint" if you can show me some hard evidence that supports that idea. That said, I'm not a climate scientist, nor am I a dilettante blogger/youtuber who believes he's a climate scientist after reading a couple of Wikipedia articles and thinks he has the authority to state, "there is no crisis!" Yes, AOC's GND is optimistic, but that doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

- Immigration. We've come to agreement on a sensible policy in earlier discussion, which I think most Dems would favor.

Don't see how this "shit show" is going to be produced.
the same way people thought gay marriage was going to ruin civilization

[ElNono]

You gave the definition then you set out to debunk it. Community as a whole does not equal "our representatives". Congress and the POTUS controls the military, the community has no say. Otherwise martial law could never be in effect. What part of socialism allows you to opt out? What part of socialism puts you in prison for quitting your job? What part has you invading another country to secure oil fields for capitalists who never served a day?

IMO, you can't divorce community from our elected representatives. Their sole job description is to represent their community. That they routinely take a shit on the people they represent talks about them, not the system. Now democracy doesn't fit the socialist political model (partially anyways, things like regulation matches on both), but that doesn't mean you can't have socialist economics within a democracy. That's what's largely different from Communism, where you can't split the political and economic sides as one largely relies on the other, or it just won't fit the communist doctrine.


The programs you mentioned are not departments, these are programs. Do you think the Dept of Agriculture is a socialist department? I agree some aspects of military life resemble socialism, like living on a base (not free btw) but that's about as far as it goes. If you receive separate rations and live off base, you eat off base most of the time. You have to pay for your uniforms even though you get a small allowance. There are private contractors working beside you most of the time especially on new platforms. There are GS level employees overseeing a lot of what the military departments are doing. They make exponentially more than the soldiers, sailors and airmen doing basically the same jobs. That's hardly socialism. Again, it is made up of volunteers who come and go. Socialism isn't.

The programs I mentioned are run by departments. Much like the military is structured in departments and runs different programs. There's really zero difference both in structure and functional substance. The Dept of Agriculture has what most people would agree are 'social programs', sure. Foodstamps can largely be described as a socialist program in nature. It doesn't necessarily fits capitalism because it introduces government intervention in a market which, as any economist will tell you, distorts said market. It creates artificial demand where otherwise wouldn't be (poor people wouldn't be able to afford the food by themselves). The entire MIC is that. Not only that, despite that as you mention soldiers might have to pay for certain items, they have their own government funded healthcare system, and their salaries and pensions are handled exactly like that of any other federal government employee.

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/LouDobbs/status/1101639447085490176

Herr Dobbs

[RandomGuy]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/yyc7U4gVbzy445A45p/giphy.gif?cid=3640f6095c79afae6267726977d619ec

I can hear the sound of Hannity fapping from here. Gross.

[RandomGuy]

This is exaggeratingly alarmist. Let's look at some of the core ideas of the "increasingly radical leftist" Democratic party.

- Universal healthcare. This is bad why? Works in every other developed country in the world just fine. "B-B-But h-h-h-how are we gonna pay for it!" I think in combination with higher tax rates (on the wealthy and maybe a slight tax hike on the middle class, which will wind up paying for itself), universal healthcare supporters need to see that we are already spending the same amount of tax dollars per capita on healthcare as universal healthcare countries and ask, "Where is the money is going?" I've already speculated where the money is going. To pay for price gouged services, equipment, and medicine. The profit motive is fundamentally incompatible with "Do No Harm," as I've said.

- Higher marginal tax rates (and capital gains rates) on the very wealthy. Bad why? Worked post-New Deal/pre-Reagan fine. As we've discussed before, trickle down has had a 40 year trial. Bottom 90% growth flatlined. We can talk about globalization, technology, etc, etc, changing the economy all we want, but boiled down, the economy fully satisfied the conditions of supply side economics where the wealthy saw significant growth, and per the theory, it was supposed to neatly "trickle down" regardless of any marketplace changes. It didn't. It simply doesn't work.

- Addressing climate change. Bad why? The scientific consensus is that we need to address it. I'll buy that it's a "global conspiracy" to impose "ebil socialism and big gubbint" if you can show me some hard evidence that supports that idea. That said, I'm not a climate scientist, nor am I a dilettante blogger/youtuber who believes he's a climate scientist after reading a couple of Wikipedia articles and thinks he has the authority to state, "there is no crisis!" Yes, AOC's GND is optimistic, but that doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

- Immigration. We've come to agreement on a sensible policy in earlier discussion, which I think most Dems would favor.

Don't see how this "shit show" is going to be produced.

Sums it up pretty well.

The "extreme left" tilt is a transparent attempt to do a handwavy dismissal of the entire concept. That shit is not cutting it anymore.

[Chris]

I can hear the sound of Hannity fapping from here. Gross.

Your imagination - yikes!

[spurraider21]

Your imagination - yikes!
almost as disgusting as daisy hogg tbh

[Chris]

almost as disgusting as daisy hogg tbh

I missed the daisy hogg thing. Can you feel me in?

[DMC]

IMO, you can't divorce community from our elected representatives. Their sole job description is to represent their community. That they routinely take a shit on the people they represent talks about them, not the system. Now democracy doesn't fit the socialist political model (partially anyways, things like regulation matches on both), but that doesn't mean you can't have socialist economics within a democracy. That's what's largely different from Communism, where you can't split the political and economic sides as one largely relies on the other, or it just won't fit the communist doctrine.



The programs I mentioned are run by departments. Much like the military is structured in departments and runs different programs. There's really zero difference both in structure and functional substance. The Dept of Agriculture has what most people would agree are 'social programs', sure. Foodstamps can largely be described as a socialist program in nature. It doesn't necessarily fits capitalism because it introduces government intervention in a market which, as any economist will tell you, distorts said market. It creates artificial demand where otherwise wouldn't be (poor people wouldn't be able to afford the food by themselves). The entire MIC is that. Not only that, despite that as you mention soldiers might have to pay for certain items, they have their own government funded healthcare system, and their salaries and pensions are handled exactly like that of any other federal government employee.

That fact that the funding for the military is from capitalist corporations and private individuals who aren't in the military should be enough to show they aren't a socialist system. They don't exist without outside funding. You can say the same for foodstamps or welfare, but those affect everyone who qualifies for them. You cannot simply lose your job and qualify for the military. It's a volunteer organization, and you can be removed and not let back in. You can be deemed to old or young to be in the military. Officers are treated to a higher standard of living than are enlisted people even though they work less. That doesn't sound like socialism. If soldiers were paid proper wages, they could buy private healthcare. Taking their wages and giving them healthcare in return isn't the same as socialized medicine, because you cannot walk onto a base and visit the clinic for free unless we are active or qualify as a retiree. In a socialist country, an outsider can get medical treatment just as an insider can. The military is more like an exclusive club with a pyramid system.

[Pavlov]

https://twitter.com/LouDobbs/status/1101639447085490176

Herr Dobbs
How is he going to fire her?

[Chris]

How is he going to fire her?

you didn't watch lol

[midnightpulp]

That fact that the funding for the military is from capitalist corporations and private individuals who aren't in the military should be enough to show they aren't a socialist system. They don't exist without outside funding. You can say the same for foodstamps or welfare, but those affect everyone who qualifies for them. You cannot simply lose your job and qualify for the military. It's a volunteer organization, and you can be removed and not let back in. You can be deemed to old or young to be in the military. Officers are treated to a higher standard of living than are enlisted people even though they work less. That doesn't sound like socialism. If soldiers were paid proper wages, they could buy private healthcare. Taking their wages and giving them healthcare in return isn't the same as socialized medicine, because you cannot walk onto a base and visit the clinic for free unless we are active or qualify as a retiree. In a socialist country, an outsider can get medical treatment just as an insider can. The military is more like an exclusive club with a pyramid system.

Not sure about Nono, but what I mean when I say the military is a socialized program is that it's funded via tax payer dollars and is still required to defend the "freeloaders" that don't pay taxes. The argument against universal healthcare is usually, "why should I have to pay for the healthcare of others?" Well, can't we make that same argument here? "Why should I have to pay for the defense of others?" Or even worse, why should I have to pay for the defense of Europe? (yes, Frostking posted a link that they cover about a 3rd of the costs, but still, only a 3rd). Police and fire are the same in this regard, but you never hear conservatives whine about paying for the police protection for others.

I honestly think the backlash against universal healthcare is more because it's a liberal position that conservatives have to be against.

[ElNono]

That fact that the funding for the military is from capitalist corporations and private individuals who aren't in the military should be enough to show they aren't a socialist system. They don't exist without outside funding. You can say the same for foodstamps or welfare, but those affect everyone who qualifies for them. You cannot simply lose your job and qualify for the military. It's a volunteer organization, and you can be removed and not let back in. You can be deemed to old or young to be in the military. Officers are treated to a higher standard of living than are enlisted people even though they work less. That doesn't sound like socialism. If soldiers were paid proper wages, they could buy private healthcare. Taking their wages and giving them healthcare in return isn't the same as socialized medicine, because you cannot walk onto a base and visit the clinic for free unless we are active or qualify as a retiree. In a socialist country, an outsider can get medical treatment just as an insider can. The military is more like an exclusive club with a pyramid system.

The funding is the point. Those 'capitalist corporations and private individuals' are indeed the community. They're tax dollars. The fact that, as you say, they wouldn't exist if that government welfare wouldn't be there, is what makes the system intrinsically socialist. And socialist in more ways than just funding. Don't forget the VA gets to mandate how much they'll pay for medicines (a power not even Medicare has). There's egregious socialism anywhere you look at it, and I don't mean that's a bad thing. The main reason you couldn't have a solid military as a private system is that the mission wouldn't be what it needs to be, which is defending the country primarily, projecting power as a secondary, etc. It would instead be profit motive. This is exactly the same dichotomy that comes up every time there's a discussion about our healthcare system, profit motive vs what's the mission, which are often at odds with each other.

As far as volunteer or not, there's nothing compulsive about social plans either. You can opt not to sign up for or use foodstamps even if you qualify. However, the government *must* fund it, whether you qualify for the program, or you pay taxes or not. Foodstamps is also a an 'exclusive club'. Not everybody qualifies for it. You can't walk into Social Security and demand foodstamps. You can also be kicked out of the program. Same with Medicare, Medicaid and all those social programs. Same thing in countries with socialized medicine: you can opt not to use the free healthcare, but your taxes will still pay for the program, whether you use it or not.

Some people like to associate socialism with some sort of evil empire, but we see socialism everywhere all the time where capitalism just simply cannot make a profitable, competitive market, and there's a higher mission than just the bare economic interest. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.