Horowitz has found Carter Page FISA Warrant was legal

[spurraider21]

i didnt say they acted with complete integrity. i already posted many snippets from the report showing serious wrongdoing on their part. im speaking of integrity strictly in the context of acting in a politically biased manner.

overzealous law enforcement cutting corners to get warrants, unfortunately, is far from scarce. i think you can find misconduct at large if you had the opportunity and resources for an investigation like this after all kinds of criminal inquiries, not just ones of this magnitude. thats not to underplay it or call it "ok." but its not particularly surprising that in something this big, they found issues.

i think the falsification of the emails is a pretty big deal, and that person probably should do time. i dont see any reason why we should look at their initial use of steele as politically motivated. they had worked with him before, and after discussing how to handle the oppo research background of the dossier, decided to go with the footnote. some people thought they should have done more. there was no finding that the footnote was a misrepresentation or omission according to the report, from what i've read

what the OIG laid out today is very important and i'm glad they've recommended all kinds of new procedures which the FBI seems ready to adopt to help prevent further abuses. but they still found that the investigation was launched for proper purposes, with the proper factual predicate, and that at no point did they find that the actions were politically motivated. lets not suddenly act like that wasn't the big accusation behind spygate and russia hoax witch hunt, the unraveling, etc


No bias, good predication, but serious flaws were found.

Having high status investigative targets will tend to expose the squishiness of the system that is merely taken for granted when the targets are not high status.

Lying about what the report says will be a sound tactic again. Most people will rely on other peoples takes.
stumbled across this yesterday, thought it was hilariously on point

8:58 - 9:18


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tudyRn6HGps

[TSA]

Durham Surprises Even Allies With Statement on F.B.I.’s Trump Case

"That wall of silence cracked this month when Mr. Durham, serving in the most politically charged role of his career, released an extraordinary statement questioning one key element of an overlapping investigation by the Justice Department’s inspector general, Michael E. Horowitz.

Mr. Horowitz had found that the F.B.I. acted appropriately in opening the inquiry in 2016 into whether the Trump campaign wittingly or unwittingly helped Russia influence the election in Donald J. Trump’s favor. In response, Mr. Durham, whose report is not expected to be complete for months, released a caveat-laden rebuttal: “Based on the evidence collected to date, and while our investigation is ongoing, last month we advised the inspector general that we do not agree with some of the report’s conclusions as to predication and how the F.B.I. case was opened.”

The statement seemed to support comments made half an hour earlier by Mr. Barr, who assailed what he called “an intrusive investigation of a U.S. presidential campaign,” based “on the thinnest of suspicions.” Mr. Durham’s decision to go public in such a politically polarized environment surprised people who have worked with him. They found it out of character for him to intervene in such a high-profile way in an open case.

“It’s fair to characterize what John did as unusual in terms of his past practice and I don’t know what the rationale was,” said Kevin J. O’Connor, a former United States attorney for Connecticut who supervised Mr. Durham for several years in the early 2000s. “But I know John well enough to know that he did it because he — not the A.G. or anyone else — thought he had an obligation to.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/23/us/politics/john-durham-fbi-russia.html

[boutons_deux]

Anybody hired by Barr, eg Durham, are compromised, politicized turds in the Repug toilet, from with the TSA, Chucho, etc drink from

[Spurs Homer]

Fbi still exonerated

trump still impeached

[TSA]

Fbi still exonerated

trump still impeached

“We are deeply concerned that so many basic and fundamental errors were made by three separate, hand-picked investigative teams; on one of the most sensitive FBI investigations; after the matter had been briefed to the highest levels within the FBI; even though the information sought through the use of FISA authority related so closely to an ongoing presidential campaign; and even though those involved with the investigation knew that their actions were likely to be subjected to close scrutiny,”

“We believe this circumstance reflects a failure not just by those who prepared the FISA applications, but also by the managers and supervisors in the Crossfire Hurricane chain of command, including FBI senior officials who were briefed as the investigation progressed,”

"I think the activities we found here don’t vindicate anybody who touched this FISA."

[ChumpDumper]

Can: kicked.

[Spurs Homer]

“We are deeply concerned that so many basic and fundamental errors were made by three separate, hand-picked investigative teams; on one of the most sensitive FBI investigations; after the matter had been briefed to the highest levels within the FBI; even though the information sought through the use of FISA authority related so closely to an ongoing presidential campaign; and even though those involved with the investigation knew that their actions were likely to be subjected to close scrutiny,”

“We believe this circumstance reflects a failure not just by those who prepared the FISA applications, but also by the managers and supervisors in the Crossfire Hurricane chain of command, including FBI senior officials who were briefed as the investigation progressed,”

"I think the activities we found here don’t vindicate anybody who touched this FISA."


FBI still exonerated
comey exonerated
mccabe exonerated
ohr, strock,page et al exonerated


no deep state
no witch hunt
no hoax
no coup


FBI began a proper investigation based on clear evidence that the russians owned trump


they still do

[Winehole23]

Hillary and the DEEP STATE connived to let Trump win on purpose so they could impeach him afterwards. The FBI deep sixing HRC's chances to win by announcing an investigation into HER right at the end of the campaign was a masterstroke of deception -- for all the world it looked like the DEEP STATE was trying to sink HER. Little did we know then that the FBI wrecking HRC was a subterfuge to propel Donald Trump to the Presidency so it could wreck him too.

[boutons_deux]

FBI’s probe of Trump campaign faced problems from the start

a close reading of the 434-page report, and interviews with current and former agents, suggest the FBI may have been too cautious, especially in the early stages of the investigation.

The reason? The FBI was trying to stay out of politics.

Worried about leaks, the bureau kept the investigative team small.

It barred the use of subpoenas and other aggressive tools. And it ran the inquiry from Washington, not one of its 56 field offices.

Partly as a result, it took more than two months for a former British spy’s report to reach the right FBI investigators.

And a constant reshuffling of agents and staff led to communication lapses and loss of institutional knowledge.

“The investigation was unprecedented, and the bureau was trying to do what it could to stay out of the election,” said a former FBI official.

“The investigation got handcuffed by some of that.

There was turnover. There was some confusion.

But I’m not sure how it could have been handled differently.”

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-12-23/fbis-probe-of-trump-campaign-faced-problems-from-the-start?utm_source=Today%27s+Headlines&utm_campaign=5de01ed88a-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_12_12_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b04355194f-5de01ed88a-80027601 (https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-12-23/fbis-probe-of-trump-campaign-faced-problems-from-the-start?utm_source=Today%27s+Headlines&utm_campaign=5de01ed88a-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_12_12_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b04355194f-5de01ed88a-80027601)

[Winehole23]

stumbled across this yesterday, thought it was hilariously on point

8:58 - 9:18


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tudyRn6HGps:tu

"an unending series of isolated events"

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/DavidJHarrisJr/status/1210281626954895361?s=19

[ChumpDumper]

https://twitter.com/DavidJHarrisJr/status/1210281626954895361?s=19So why are you acting like you didn't know it was his employee?

[spurraider21]

So why are you acting like you didn't know it was his employee?
BREAKING!

[boutons_deux]

McCabe's suit is being blocked by Barr so McCabe can't clear himself of the bullshit the Repugs/Fox have slandering him with.

Fired the day before retirement? "Cruelty is the Point"

[TSA]

1197882409238368256



:lmao :lmao :lmao TSA

https://mobile.twitter.com/bradheath/status/1220426231335665664

:lmao

[TSA]

Where’s the FISA abuse?

https://mobile.twitter.com/bradheath/status/1220426231335665664

:lmao

[TSA]

No FISA Abuse. Lawd!

https://mobile.twitter.com/bradheath/status/1220426231335665664

:lmao

[TSA]

Everything has gone wrong for you. Everything. You are tempting fate with this one.

:lmao

[TSA]

You have no reason to be confident. But I do.

:lmao
:lmao
:lmao

[TSA]

The Unraveling

:bobo

[TSA]

:lmao FISA warrant legal

https://mobile.twitter.com/bradheath/status/1220426231335665664

:lmao

[TSA]

Wanna know what was legal? The FISA warrant

https://mobile.twitter.com/bradheath/status/1220426231335665664

:lmao

[DMC]

So without the Carter Page FISA warrant, Trump doesn't get investigated at all with the "collusion" thing, correct? Does this mean Trump et al can claim the FBI was illegally spying on GOP candidate to assist the democratic nominee? This rabbit hole got deeper if so. The Clintons have some serious tentacles.

[TSA]

He quiet as fuck :lmao

https://mobile.twitter.com/bradheath/status/1220426231335665664

:lmao

[TSA]

So how is TSA enjoying the shit sandwich?


claiming total victory :lol

https://mobile.twitter.com/bradheath/status/1220426231335665664

:bobo

[spurraider21]

This isn’t a revelation. Horowitz found the wrongdoing i the applications over a month ago. Now the FBI is acknowledging the issues.

Still doesnt show that the investigation was a “witch hunt” or a deep state conspiracy. Doesn’t address the adequate predicate to launch the investigation.

[spurraider21]

So without the Carter Page FISA warrant, Trump doesn't get investigated at all with the "collusion" thing, correct? Does this mean Trump et al can claim the FBI was illegally spying on GOP candidate to assist the democratic nominee? This rabbit hole got deeper if so. The Clintons have some serious tentacles.
Nah, the investigation was already open before the Page warrants. OIG noted over a month ago that the fisa applications were flawed. Also didn’t find any “spying” for political purposes, or political bias in the handling of the investigation.

[TSA]

This isn’t a revelation. Horowitz found the wrongdoing i the applications over a month ago. Now the FBI is acknowledging the issues.

Still doesnt show that the investigation was a “witch hunt” or a deep state conspiracy. Doesn’t address the adequate predicate to launch the investigation.

For fuck’s sake SR just shut the fuck up, pull the stick out of your ass, and point and laugh at djohn.

[spurraider21]

For fuck’s sake SR just shut the fuck up, pull the stick out of your ass, and point and laugh at djohn.
But we knew djohn was wrong in December after the report was released. We didn’t learn anything new from this story except that the fbi is agreeing with the IG’s findings. I didn’t have any reason to doubt his findings in December when the report came out, so the fbi agreeing with the report isn’t really giving us new information

and even that isn’t news because Chris Wray said as much when the report came out.

[TSA]

Nah, the investigation was already open before the Page warrants. OIG noted over a month ago that the fisa applications were flawed. Also didn’t find any “spying” for political purposes, or political bias in the handling of the investigation.

“spying” for political purposes is and always has been a straw man. Horowitz highlighted plenty of spying on members of the campaign. And Trump sure as fuck can claim the FBI was illegally spying on member of his campaign.

[spurraider21]

“spying” for political purposes is and always has been a straw man. Horowitz highlighted plenty of spying on members of the campaign. And Trump sure as fuck can claim the FBI was illegally spying on member of his campaign.
:lol calling it a strawman when it’s literally in the post i was responding to

[Reck]

Really these are TSAs priorities? To log in at midnight to laugh at some random dude online?

I bet he got out of bed and everything just so he can post the same tweet 20 times over and over again. Someone got bullied as a child. :lol

[TSA]

:lol calling it a strawman when it’s literally in the post i was responding to

I take it back with DMC’s quote for context. I missed it and assumed you were using the political purposes designation to say there wasn’t any spying at all as so many here routinely do like Winehole23. I believe you were the first in this thread to actually post all of the spying Horowitz detailed in his report.

[TSA]

Really these are TSAs priorities? To log in at midnight to laugh at some random dude online?

I bet he got out of bed and everything just so he can post the same tweet 20 times over and over again. Someone got bullied as a child. :lol

I’m in California sitting on my couch, it’s 11:15 PM. Isn’t it 2:15 AM where you are right now and your trying to laugh at some random dude online?

You really need to stop and think for five seconds before hitting reply and ask yourself each time, am I going to shit on myself again.

[spurraider21]

I’m in California sitting on my couch, it’s 11:15 PM. Isn’t it 2:15 AM where you are right now and your trying to laugh at some random dude online?

You really need to stop and think for five seconds before hitting reply and ask yourself each time, am I going to shit on myself again.
Hey it’s 2:20am where i live :lol...

but my work hours are PST and i sleep accordingly

[spurraider21]

I take it back with DMC’s quote for context. I missed it and assumed you were using the political purposes designation to say there wasn’t any spying at all as so many here routinely do like Winehole23 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14613). I believe you were the first in this thread to actually post all of the spying Horowitz detailed in his report.
We’ve had this convo before too though. Trump himself claimed they spied for political purposes.

We don’t typically call law enforcement surveillance “spying” so even calling it that implies some improper motive or purpose

[TSA]

Hey it’s 2:20am where i live :lol...

but my work hours are PST and i sleep accordingly

You are obviously able to stay up late and not shit your own bed :lol

[TSA]

We’ve had this convo before too though. Trump himself claimed they spied for political purposes.

We don’t typically call law enforcement surveillance “spying” so even calling it that implies some improper motive or purpose

:lol bro....DOJ just said 2 of the 4 applications were unlawful, you can call it spying.

[spurraider21]

:lol bro....DOJ just said 2 of the 4 applications were unlawful, you can call it spying.
Police lie to get search warrants... we don’t refer to that as spying

[Spurs Homer]

BOOOMMM!!!!!


:lmao:lmao:lmao

[DMC]

Now it's a semantics argument about the word "spying". Philo not interested in semantics until semantics are useful to him.

[DMC]

These forums are a lot like how a socialist system would really operate: Everyone would show up to collect theirs, few would show up to pay into it.

[DarrinS]

Long article, but good read

The FBI Scandal (https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/the-fbi-scandal/)

[TSA]

1197882409238368256



:lmao :lmao :lmao TSA

https://mobile.twitter.com/CBS_Herridge/status/1225481249155928066

:lmao :lmao :lmao djohn2oo8

[Spurs Homer]

BOOOMMMM!!!!



:lol:lol:lol

[TSA]

https://twitter.com/JerryDunleavy/status/1235415694176669697

https://www.fisc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/Misc%2019%2002%20Opinion%20and%20Order%20PJ%20JEB% 20200304.pdf

[Winehole23]

Seems reasonable.

It's a shame that LE sloppiness/shortcuts/cheating usually don't matter to folks until the target is a high status person.

[TSA]

Seems reasonable.

It's a shame that LE sloppiness/shortcuts/cheating usually don't matter to folks until the target is a high status person.

:lol trying to downplay lying to the FISC and submitting forged documents in order to obtain a FISA warrant as sloppiness/shortcuts/cheating

[spurraider21]

:lol trying to downplay lying to the FISC and submitting forged documents in order to obtain a FISA warrant as sloppiness/shortcuts/cheating
calling it cheating is downplaying?

[koriwhat]

:lol trying to downplay lying to the FISC and submitting forged documents in order to obtain a FISA warrant as sloppiness/shortcuts/cheating

that's what the scumbags on the left always do. coverup for their golden gods just like quid pro joe.

[TSA]

calling it cheating is downplaying?

Yes.

[Winehole23]

calling it cheating is downplaying?
The FISC's restrictions seem entirely reasonable based on the IG report, not sure why TSA has a hair up his ass about my characterization. FBI goofed the process.

IG also said the investigation had a good faith basis and no political motive, and that there was no partisan spying.

I accept that both can be true. TSA can't.

[ElNono]

There's a much larger problem here: the FISC being, for all intents and purposes, a secret court and sort of paralegal system. It's a system where LEO can send requests without informing the accused, thus violating their due process.

[Winehole23]

There's a much larger problem here: the FISC being, for all intents and purposes, a secret court and sort of paralegal system. It's a system where LEO can send requests without informing the accused, thus violating their due process.wasn't the FISC created to rein in an out of control FBI? to create some possibility of accountability where there had been even closer to none?

Not disagreeing with you, just trying to think this through.

[Spurs Homer]

There's a much larger problem here: the FISC being, for all intents and purposes, a secret court and sort of paralegal system. It's a system where LEO can send requests without informing the accused, thus violating their due process.


but why is LE bearing the brunt of this ? Because trump team said so?

if a foreign govt is infiltrating us citizens and us citizens are receptive to their overtures (as trump team was)

why should LE not be allowed to investigate in secret?

why would you warn the us citizens (who might actually be committing treasonous acts) before investigating?

FBI was completely authorized to investigate without telling the players/possible suspects.

The FBI fucked up in some of the process and rules of evidence-


but


the JUDGES - should bear the brunt of this responsibility -not just the FBI


what if there was treasonous activity and the FBI just tipped everybody off? Well wouldnt any foreign govt have a free pass in the future?

[spurraider21]

There's a much larger problem here: the FISC being, for all intents and purposes, a secret court and sort of paralegal system. It's a system where LEO can send requests without informing the accused, thus violating their due process.
How often are suspects notified of requests for search warrants?

[TSA]

The FISC's restrictions seem entirely reasonable based on the IG report, not sure why TSA has a hair up his ass about my characterization. FBI goofed the process.

IG also said the investigation had a good faith basis and no political motive, and that there was no partisan spying.

I accept that both can be true. TSA can't.

Lying to the FISC, hiding exculpatory evidence, and submitting forged documents in order to obtain a FISA warrant is just a goof in the process by the FBI :rollin

[boutons_deux]

epitome of flakiness Carter Page wants to be reparations for legal expenses.

[ElNono]

How often are suspects notified of requests for search warrants?

They’re served with the warrant, at the very least. That certainly acts as notification. In this case there’s no such thing, while the ‘investigation’ does go through fairly personal matters.

[ElNono]

wasn't the FISC created to rein in an out of control FBI? to create some possibility of accountability where there had been even closer to none?

Not disagreeing with you, just trying to think this through.

IIRC, the FISA court was created in the Nixon years to address persecution against media and rival politicians from government. It’s hard to stomach we even had a pseudo-legal process for that. I get that the risk of not having it means we could have bad actors in those areas, but it’s also an affront to our justice system, which, BTW, handles secret and confidential requests all the time.

I might be wrong on this, but democracy thrived just fine in this country before the 70s and the FISA law.

[spurraider21]

They’re served with the warrant, at the very least. That certainly acts as notification. In this case there’s no such thing, while the ‘investigation’ does go through fairly personal matters.
does law enforcement typically notify somebody that they're being wiretapped?

[ElNono]

does law enforcement typically notify somebody that they're being wiretapped?

No, not particularly in pen/trap cases, but we're now talking about much larger types of data collection.

My issue with the FISC is that it's a paralegal system established by statute (AFAIK), unlike the judicial proper which gets it's power delegated by the Constitution itself.

And so checks and balances that would normally apply to the judiciary do not necessarily apply to it and as we diverge more and more, do the warrants they issue actually have the same validity as the judiciary ones? Do they have any validity at all, at least to the extent of warrants as mentioned in the 4th amendment?

It's like the executive and/or Congress one day declaring that they're going to have an 'enemy combatant' kangaroo court that's not a military tribunal but not the judiciary either. And also wrapped in secrecy, because they can.

[Winehole23]

I think I can kind of see what El Nono is saying. The very idea of a secret court undermines privacy, due process and accountability. I also get that due process rights do not generally attach to investigation.

Perhaps the tension is more literary than legal, I'm not a lawyer.

[Winehole23]

And fortunately, I suppose, not yet a suspect.

[ElNono]

I think I can kind of see what El Nono is saying. The very idea of a secret court undermines privacy, due process and accountability. I also get that due process rights do not generally attach to investigation.

Perhaps the tension is more literary than legal, I'm not a lawyer.

There's even questions of what is an 'investigation' in this case? By the time they ask the court for a warrant, they already combed through a gazillion communications from everyone, and zeroed in some potential target.

Who gets to sit at the table and argue that a warrant might be too broad? By the time a potential criminal case is built up, and filed in the legit justice system, you can challenge the evidence, but you can't challenge the collection, you can't inquire how it was obtained, etc. It's all secret, and prodding too much will raise the natsec card.

[Spurs Homer]

There's even questions of what is an 'investigation' in this case? By the time they ask the court for a warrant, they already combed through a gazillion communications from everyone, and zeroed in some potential target.

Who gets to sit at the table and argue that a warrant might be too broad? By the time a potential criminal case is built up, and filed in the legit justice system, you can challenge the evidence, but you can't challenge the collection, you can't inquire how it was obtained, etc. It's all secret, and prodding too much will raise the natsec card.


Just go back to the basics of law enforcement.

You follow the evidence.

You try and ahdere to the rules of law, you have level upon level upon level of rules, policies, criminal code of conduct/procedures, etc...

you get a report or a phone call - or as was the case in this investigation-

you get passed info from our allies intel - who just alerted the USA intel to red flags regarding russia ramping up their fuckery- and red flags when several trump team idiots were receptive-

these red flags corroborated the red flags the usa intel already had (but of course they did not TELL the foreign intel players what they had or did not have- they just collected evidence...

combine this with what every human being had heard with their own ears
(”russia, if you are listening...” (russian spy - at a trump speech coincidentally being picked out of an audience and serving trump up a question of russia/us relations- which trump praised putin...trump firing comey and then bragging about it to the russians in the oval office mtg where only russians were allowed and zero usa personnel/press)

add in with the other secret info/evidence the fbi had gathered -

and then all of this goes up the chain- that level reviewed everything and approved some paths/rejected others...

go to the next supervisory level- same process....and the next and the next....


months later and thousands of pieces of evidence later-

it went to the FISA court where the ball was dropped by both FBI personnel and COURT/JUDGES -


but there is a basic law enforcement process that was followed and at times mistakes were made


but the ALTERNATIVE?


throw out the baby out with the bathwater...because TRUMP