The Penthouse Of Josh Primo

[Chinook]

Name one team that has. It’s literally the only credit given to this franchise, albeit grudgingly, by the nba media. I mean, Keldon, drafted at #29, has the 9th highest WS in his class. yes, the Spurs have their duds, but that would also be a better % than other clubs.

The NBA media constantly declares whomever the Spurs draft as the "steal of the draft". It's more of a sign of the media's disinterest that they save the Spurs have a great scouting staff. Moreover, we aren't talking about the team's scouting in the first place. Why the Spurs have had success scouting guys late in the draft is a more nuanced discussion that has to do with things like their drafting priorities. They actually are good (though not all that close to the best recently) at scouting at the end of the first.

We're talking about their record developing players. There are multiple ways to get at investigating the idea that the Spurs have a good track record of developing guys, but a relatively simple way would be to look at Most Improved Player voting. Due to the Spurs stashing guys in the d-league, this is an award that should be biased for their players. A player that goes from being relegated to the Toros to being a rotation player on the big club looks like more of an improvement than a guy just getting more NBA minutes. With that in mind, let's go over the Spurs who have ranked in the top-10 in that category. (If you're wondering why top-10, it's because those awards very quickly run into single-point gatherers who only got votes from their local media members, but the time you get to the top-20, it's often a tie among guys who weren't close to the actual contenders for the award.)

2010 -- George Hill a 2(T): Starting here, because George Hill was tied for second place after earning a rotation spot in his sophomore season. He was an older rookie who arguably had his role depressed during his first year, but still, it's nice that he got recognition

2012 -- Danny Green 9(T): I'm obviously a Green homer and think he should have been higher on the list. I have said on multiple occasions that I think the Spurs' role in improving Green's game is often overstated, but we can have that argument some other time. Let's count this as a win.

2014 -- Patty Mills 9: Mills found his way into the playoff rotation by the end of the season. He only got 14 points in the votes and honestly played better the following season. He hadn't improved as much as he'd just gotten more opportunity, since he was an offensive wizard internationally well before this.

2016 -- Kawhi Leonard 10: Honestly Leonard got screwed the previous season where he established himself as a star. But it's a regular season award, and Leonard broke out in the playoffs.

And that's it. Basically every other year for seven seasons you had players crack the top 10 in voting for an award that apparently the media fully expects the Spurs to dominate at. Even giving the Spurs full credit for developing all four of these guys, it's trivially easy to look at those same lists and find teams that have bodied the Spurs in this category. There are many seasons where teams will have multiple players in the top-10, which the Spurs haven't done in any of the seasons I looked at. Some of these votes are undoubtedly driven by narrative, like how DeRozan will very likely get MIP votes despite actually playing worse this year than he did last year. But there's not actually an obvious bias in the votes. Denver, Utah, Phoenix, the pre-Leonard Clippers, Atlanta, Sacramento, and Toronto have as many or more players in the top 10 (and not at mostly 9 or 10 like SA was) without being driven by hype.

When you look at Spurs players with a generous lens, they don't look like the mediocre bunch they mostly are. Even Johnson wasn't the best guy on the board at 29 going by career win-shares like you were. He's played a lot of minutes and if anything has also seen his WS/48 drop since his peak during the bubble. I don't look at his story or White's or especially Lonnie's (and I'm a huge Walker fan) and see them as successes of the Spurs' development plan. Each has shown improvement in some areas while continuing to disappoint or newly disappointing in others. The Spurs having one player with a legitimate (not hardly secure) All-Star case in the past 10 or so drafts isn't something to brag about.

[Chinook]

from what time period? and i think you'd have to narrow it down to front offices that have been around a while as well rather than just a franchise.

The shorter the time period gets, the worse it looks. I also don't think it matters what the Spurs did 20 years ago, since most FOs can't afford to be judged by that long of a timeline. That their best developmental accomplishment in the last eight years only became a clearly positive starter after his fifth year in the league doesn't speak well to their developmental chops.

[Maddog]

Some interesting articles on the topic:

https://towardsdatascience.com/which-nba-teams-are-best-at-drafting-20070ccd1702
https://sidelinesources.com/nba-news/the-franchise-that-is-the-best-and-worst-at-drafting-in-the-nba/

Interestingly the second article has the Suns 3rd worse. Yet they are now contenders based on getting it relatively right twice in a short time frame.
Look at GS- they had a lot of bad drafts up to Steph and even after.

[Atl Spur]

The shorter the time period gets, the worse it looks. I also don't think it matters what the Spurs did 20 years ago, since most FOs can't afford to be judged by that long of a timeline. That their best developmental accomplishment in the last eight years only became a clearly positive starter after his fifth year in the league doesn't speak well to their developmental chops.

I don’t need twenty years���� Show me all these better front offices. Everyone makes mistakes but these boys do a lot with a little.

[Atl Spur]

Brad Stevens was the second coming…… we know how that ended��

[offset formation]

I like a lot of Primo's game but one thing is clear: he's a turnover waiting to happen because he's a poor passer. He's forces passes into overly tight windows that often wont even lead the recieving teammate much opportunity to score.

Good news is this should be easily fixed with simple decision making repitition.

[Trill Clinton]

I like a lot of Primo's game but one thing is clear: he's a turnover waiting to happen because he's a poor passer. He's forces passes into overly tight windows that often wont even lead the recieving teammate much opportunity to score.

Good news is this should be easily fixed with simple decision making repitition.

I agree. The TO's will reduce the more he plays with this group of guys.

[exstatic]

I like a lot of Primo's game but one thing is clear: he's a turnover waiting to happen because he's a poor passer. He's forces passes into overly tight windows that often wont even lead the recieving teammate much opportunity to score.

Good news is this should be easily fixed with simple decision making repitition.

His overall passing is good. He’s made some passes from, or to the perimeter that take my breath away.

He’s just really inexperienced at the PnR, like DJ was when he was younger. I’d say probably 75% of his TOs come from that play. Young players always think pass, but you need to make them pay if they clog the lane by rising up for that 10-12 foot jumper.

[Atl Spur]

I attribute his mistakes to experience at this level, hopefully it starts to slow down & clicks for him. I see the potential but it needs to be cultivated!

[John B]

Primo didn’t have a very good game last night nor the game before last. He had some impressive passes, but plays still become stagnant at times with the ball in his hands. He obviously needs a lot more time at Austin. Pop was trying to make him a PG at times (well he’s I think successful with DJM coz I thought Derrick should be the main ball handler with his skills but doesn’t have the heart, sorry). Or maybe it was just lack of players without Derrick, Tre out on Covid protocol. Or Pop’s toying with Primo playing a Derozan role as SF/facilitator. But obviously he’s still very raw and needs more experience in Austin.

[BacktoBasics]

Primo didn’t have a very good game last night nor the game before last. He had some impressive passes, but plays still become stagnant at times with the ball in his hands. He obviously needs a lot more time at Austin. Pop was trying to make him a PG at times (well he’s I think successful with DJM coz I thought Derrick should be the main ball handler with his skills but doesn’t have the heart, sorry). Or maybe it was just lack of players without Derrick, Tre out on Covid protocol. Or Pop’s toying with Primo playing a Derozan role as SF/facilitator. But obviously he’s still very raw and needs more experience in Austin.
Exactly. It’s as if he should be working on specific aspects of his game in the g and applying it up on the main stage when given the opportunity.

Such a crazy concept. Hard to believe that might be better than simply being forced into bad decisions because he’s not ready for the main squad just yet.

[cd98]

This guy is basically a Kobe or Garnett as far age coming into the league. He skipped his senior year of high school. This year he should be playing his first year of college. Instead, he's playing his first year as a pro. He has a bright future. Other players that came to the NBA at his age (albeit without college experience that he has) took some time to become great players.

[offset formation]

I attribute his mistakes to experience at this level, hopefully it starts to slow down & clicks for him. I see the potential but it needs to be cultivated!

Precisely why he doesn't need to be spending his time in the g-league if and when they resme games.

[BatManu20]

Kid just turned 19 and is supposed to be a Freshman in college right now. He’ll be fine.

[BackHome]

He is doing fine little G League a little time with the big boy club and a whole bunch of time working out with trainers in SA. People forget he is so young and his one year in college all he would do is run to a corner and shoot which he did well. I love them having him play point in G League as it will only help his development. In fact next year I would like for him to be the PG for the second unit as I think Tre time has come and gone with zero outside shooting he can easily be replaced.

Again it will be interesting on who we draft this draft is very heavy on SG/SF so if we draft another SG or SF it will be interesting to see what happens.

[exstatic]

Interestingly the second article has the Suns 3rd worse. Yet they are now contenders based on getting it relatively right twice in a short time frame.
Look at GS- they had a lot of bad drafts up to Steph and even after.

Suns didn’t become a Finals team because of Booker and Ayton. They had both the year before, and finished 9th in the WC. They became a Finals team because they traded for CP3.

[MultiTroll]

Suns didn’t become a Finals team because of Booker and Ayton. They had both the year before, and finished 9th in the WC. They became a Finals team because they traded for CP3.
:lmao

[DAF86]

Some interesting articles on the topic:

https://towardsdatascience.com/which-nba-teams-are-best-at-drafting-20070ccd1702
https://sidelinesources.com/nba-news/the-franchise-that-is-the-best-and-worst-at-drafting-in-the-nba/


The Toronto Raptors remain the best drafting team in the NBA

TD21 tell us why this analysis is wrong.

[Ocotillo]

Actually he's right. Suns have a lot of young talent and a good coach but CP3 has provided the cohesion and leadership that you want from a vet. I wish the Spurs had that type of vet on the floor to corral our young guys.

[exstatic]

The rubber meets the road.



Draft Year
Player
Draft Position
WS
Class Position
Net +/- position



2014
Kyle Anderson
#30
25.3
#9
+21



2015
Mulitinov
DNP






2016
Dejounte Murray
#29
12.4
#11
+18



2017
Derrick White
#29
12.9
#12
+17



2018
LW IV
#18
1.4
#38
-20



2019
Samanic
19
0.1
#47
-28



2019
Keldon Johnson
#29
6.0
#10
+19


2020
Devin Vassell
11
3.0
12
-1




I debated about doing Vassell, because there really isn’t enough data for a good WS comparison. He’s in about his correct position, but I’m thinking he will climb up like Keldon did. His WS for this season is 1.5, the same as all of last season. Not doing last years class. If you look at them sorted by WSs, 3 of the top 5 picks are a dead at the end of the class, including second rounders. Way too early to open the oven and take a look.

So, you have one guy who never came over, one swing for the fences who busted, one real disappointment (LW IV) one guy early on performing about at his spot, and four picks who outperformed their spots by an average of just under 19 positions. Considering most here think that Primo and Vassell are the best of the lot, I’d say that since the last championship, we’ve done pretty damned well.

[TD 21]

He's clearly going to be a forward in the NBA

Unless he's not done growing, he's a 2.5 defensively.


Pop has to ask himself where the team's future is in, because guys like Tre Jones who MIGHT be decent rotation guards shouldn't be getting the developmental priority. The White/Murray starter pairing shouldn't be considered the backbone of the franchise. Pop's going to have to accept that a bad team doesn't become a good team by low-ceiling players improving their chemistry. There are too many low-ceiling guys walking around like core pieces right now. There's no pecking order that should be sending Primo anywhere. The Spurs are rebuilding, and they should act like it.

Exactly. White and Poeltl are too old and low-ceiling to be viewed as long term core pieces (unless they luck into Banchero and he's an almost immediate All-Star caliber player). They contribute to this team being just good enough to avoid having the best odds at adding true long term core pieces.

Right now, only Murray deserves that designation. Walker IV is a replacement player who should not be retained, Johnson looks like a future 7th man, Vassell looks like a future 4th starter and it's too soon to say with Primo.



TD21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=908) tell us why this analysis is wrong.

:lmao At the Raptors fanboys on this board.

As I've said ad nauseam, they've been on a run of incredible luck. They've accomplished a fraction of what the Spurs have and gained their undeserved reputation thanks to them, yet receive far more adulation thanks to their buddies in the media constantly slurping them.

For nearly two decades, most media and fans were convinced the Spurs were geniuses because of a fair bit of luck themselves . . . how smart have they looked post all-time franchise player/core?

[Chinook]

The rubber meets the road.



Draft Year
Player
Draft Position
WS
Class Position
Net +/- position


2014
Kyle Anderson
#30
25.3
#9
+21


2015
Mulitinov
DNP





2016
Dejounte Murray
#29
12.4
#11
+18


2017
Derrick White
#29
12.9
#12
+17


2018
LW IV
#18
1.4
#38
-20


2019
Samanic
19
0.1
#47
-28


2019
Keldon Johnson
#29
6.0
#10
+19


2020
Devin Vassell
11
3.0
12
-1



I debated about doing Vassell, because there really isn’t enough data for a good WS comparison. He’s in about his correct position, but I’m thinking he will climb up like Keldon did. His WS for this season is 1.5, the same as all of last season. Not doing last years class. If you look at them sorted by WSs, 3 of the top 5 picks are a dead at the end of the class, including second rounders. Way too early to open the oven and take a look.

So, you have one guy who never came over, one swing for the fences who busted, one real disappointment (LW IV) one guy early on performing about at his spot, and four picks who outperformed their spots by an average of just under 19 positions. Considering most here think that Primo and Vassell are the best of the lot, I’d say that since the last championship, we’ve done pretty damned well.

This doesn't speak at all to their developmental staff. As I said before, the Spurs are good at drafting and for a few clear reasons tend to draft guys that teams pass up due to different priorities. That most of these players did not show a notable level of improvement over their time in SA is a bigger deal than they being better than the players drafted around them (when they actually are). We were specifically talking about the d-league allocation, and potentially drafting decent prospects doesn't negate that. It's great if the front office is proficient at getting Pop and the coaches good players, but there's much, much less reason to believe they've been getting a lot out of them.

[DAF86]

Unless he's not done growing, he's a 2.5 defensively.



Exactly. White and Poeltl are too old and low-ceiling to be viewed as long term core pieces (unless they luck into Banchero and he's an almost immediate All-Star caliber player). They contribute to this team being just good enough to avoid having the best odds at adding true long term core pieces.

Right now, only Murray deserves that designation. Walker IV is a replacement player who should not be retained, Johnson looks like a future 7th man, Vassell looks like a future 4th starter and it's too soon to say with Primo.




:lmao At the Raptors fanboys on this board.

As I've said ad nauseam, they've been on a run of incredible luck. They've accomplished a fraction of what the Spurs have and gained their undeserved reputation thanks to them, yet receive far more adulation thanks to their buddies in the media constantly slurping them.

For nearly two decades, most media and fans were convinced the Spurs were geniuses because of a fair bit of luck themselves . . . how smart have they looked post all-time franchise player/core?

I couldn't give more of a fuck about the Raptors, I just find your weird obsession and total inability to give them any type of credit whatsoever very funny, tbh. :lol

So now, it isn't that the draft well, it's just that they got lucky?

[TD 21]

I couldn't give more of a fuck about the Raptors, I just find your weird obsession and total inability to give them any type of credit whatsoever very funny, tbh. :lol

So now, it isn't that the draft well, it's just that they got lucky?

It's like it makes some of you feel better about the Scumbag fiasco if you pretend some geniuses outfoxed the Spurs, as opposed to what really happened which was an unprecedented confluence of luck.

I've long said I strongly believe luck is by far the biggest factor in being a president/GM. If you really think they had an idea Siakam and VanVleet would become the players they have, you're delusional.

[itzsoweezee]

It's like it makes some of you feel better about the Scumbag fiasco if you pretend some geniuses outfoxed the Spurs, as opposed to what really happened which was an unprecedented confluence of luck.

I've long said I strongly believe luck is by far the biggest factor in being a president/GM. If you really think they had an idea Siakam and VanVleet would become the players they have, you're delusional.

They definitely outfoxed the spurs (giving up zero players they actually wanted, not taking on any bad contracts, getting Green’s expiring contract), but that says more about the spurs than it does the raptors.

[R. DeMurre]

Memphis doesn't get credit for Banes, Clarke, & Dillon Brooks because they were all draft day trades, but for all intents and purposes, they scouted and "drafted" those guys. Add that to Ja & JJJ and that's a pretty good haul.

[DAF86]

It's like it makes some of you feel better about the Scumbag fiasco if you pretend some geniuses outfoxed the Spurs, as opposed to what really happened which was an unprecedented confluence of luck.

What? Everybody and their moms know PATFO fucked up royally with that trade. :lol I still don't know what does that have to do with the fact of being incapable of recognizing the Raptors' management has done a fine job the last few years.


I've long said I strongly believe luck is by far the biggest factor in being a president/GM. If you really think they had an idea Siakam and VanVleet would become the players they have, you're delusional.

Well, the same could be said about the Spurs with Manu, Tony and Kawhi. And not because of that we are going to deny the fact that they have done a tremendous job.

[TD 21]

They definitely outfoxed the spurs (giving up zero players they actually wanted, not taking on any bad contracts, getting Green’s expiring contract), but that says more about the spurs than it does the raptors.

No, they lucked into an unprecedented situation where there was no thought required on their end. Then lucked into the Warriors being decimated by injury and now, through their connections in the national media, are portrayed as if they're geniuses . . . yet anytime I bring that up, I get pushback from casuals.


What? Everybody and their moms know the PATFO fucked up royally with that trade. :lol I still don't know that does that have to do with the fact of being incapable of recognizing the Raptors' management has done a fine job the last few years.



Well, the same could be said about the Spurs with Manu, Tony and Kawhi. And not because of that we are going to deny the fact that they have done a tremendous job.

That has nothing to do with what I said. Because the undeserved reputation all stems from that.

Exactly, but the difference is the Spurs had a dynasty. If they actually knew something others didn't, they wouldn't be in the predicament they're in.

If we're going to play this game though, then it's time to start giving the Lakers heaps of praise instead of hating on them because of some more than decade old rivalry and claiming their success is all about location.

[DAF86]

No, they lucked into an unprecedented situation where there was no thought required on their end. Then lucked into the Warriors being decimated by injury and now, through their connections in the national media, are portrayed as if they're geniuses . . . yet anytime I bring that up, I get pushback from casuals.



That has nothing to do with what I said. Because the undeserved reputation all stems from that.

Exactly, but the difference is the Spurs had a dynasty. If they actually knew something others didn't, they wouldn't be in the predicament they're in.

If we're going to play this game though, then it's time to start giving the Lakers heaps of praise instead of shitting on them because of some more than decade old rivalry and claiming their success is all about location.

That's just not true, tbh. The Raptors were being praised long before that.

[TD 21]

That's just not true, tbh. The Raptors were being praised long before that.

No, that's not true. The two franchises basically swapped reputations from the moment the "trade" was made.

[Chinook]

Yeah, Ujuri was on the hot seat before the DeRozan trade. It wasn't obvious that he was going to survive a power struggle with DeMar, which is a large part of why he was "covert" about it. He'd drafted Bruno (basically proto-Sam) as a bust, had potentially overdrafted Siakam (many thought he was a second-rounder) and had a raw OG. He'd also given a big contract to Powell, who was looking like a bust himself. It wasn't clear at all that the problem wasn't with the front office for not giving the DeRozan and Lowry a good enough supporting cast. Given how Ujuri always seems to have rumors about him changing teams, I could totally imagine Masai cutting bait and leaving the organization had he not won in 2018.

[exstatic]

This doesn't speak at all to their developmental staff. As I said before, the Spurs are good at drafting and for a few clear reasons tend to draft guys that teams pass up due to different priorities. That most of these players did not show a notable level of improvement over their time in SA is a bigger deal than they being better than the players drafted around them (when they actually are). We were specifically talking about the d-league allocation, and potentially drafting decent prospects doesn't negate that. It's great if the front office is proficient at getting Pop and the coaches good players, but there's much, much less reason to believe they've been getting a lot out of them.

You still haven’t shown me a team doing it better with the kinds of picks we usually have. Didn’t you say there were team(s)?

[Chinook]

You still haven’t shown me a team doing it better with the kinds of picks we usually have. Didn’t you say there were team(s)?

Lots. You still ignored me actually showing that the Spurs don't tend to have player who improve. You using evidence about a different situation doesn't make your claim the default. You want to assume the Spurs draft the 28th- to 30th-best prospects every year and end up with the 12th- or whatever-best players. If that were true, those players would start off mediocre or bad before over the years getting better and then ascending to being among the best of their class. We don't actually tend to see that. Instead, during the Medium-Three era, we saw some of the supporting guys gain half-hearted recognition as they grew into their roles and them nothing for the past half-decade despite the team drafting numerous prospects and needing guys to improve.

Assuming there were only 10 top-10 MIP candidates every year (which is often not true as there were ties for 10th place), there have been 120 MIP spots including the 2009-2010 season. That means each team should have an average of four players make the lists. The Spurs have had four players do so. That's with the Spurs purposefully lowering the players' starting points by shunting them to Austin. That's with the Spurs supposedly having a reputation for developing players to aid their vote counts. That's with the Spurs actually outdrafting their draft slots on multiple occassions.

So what gives? Well one thing is that the Spurs hardly ever draft projects. When they do, the players bust. Sam, Lonnie, LJC, Richards, Metu -- Murray is the only success among them, and his rise hasn't been quick at all. He at least should get legit MIP consideration this year, but you could (and I have, exhaustingly) argue his overall impact was stagnant for year before this season. So no, the Spurs aren't drafting guys that they are building up into good players. Instead, they tend to draft good players and let them adjust. Hill, White, Green, Bertans, Forbes and Mills were good players (well not Bryn, but he could shoot) who needed to adjust to the game. Certainly they've improved, but Spurs fans often overstate how much by assuming they were bad players or overrating how good they are. That's why folks can say that Johnson has been a developmental success when at best the jury is out on him right now.

The Spurs have never, ever, been a team that created good players at a rate higher than the average team. They might have had the best shooting coach in the league at one point, but overall, their strength came from being able to identify player who could help them and fitting them in. They don't need to hang their heads that they haven't turned crap into gold. I fully accept they haven't had prime stock to draw from. But I'm not the one claiming the Spurs developmental team is special. The numbers just don't back that up. To show otherwise, you'd have to show players' growth compared to that of players on other teams. It's harder than just posting win-shares by draft class, I admit. But at least it would be part of the discussion and not just a non-sequitur.

[R. DeMurre]

I wouldn't call unloading a career long net negative stat guy like DeRozan for a career long net positive stat guy like Kawhi "lucky" in any sense of the word. It was an extremely intelligent trade for the Raptors, because even if they don't win the championship that year and Kawhi leaves, they still have a salary slot open for another big post-DeRozan move. And even if Golden State is healthy and beats them, it's still their first time in the finals. It was a smart move anyway you look at it.

[Sugus]

I wouldn't call unloading a career long net negative stat guy like DeRozan for a career long net positive stat guy like Kawhi "lucky" in any sense of the word. It was an extremely intelligent trade for the Raptors, because even if they don't win the championship that year and Kawhi leaves, they still have a salary slot open for another big post-DeRozan move. And even if Golden State is healthy and beats them, it's still their first time in the finals. It was a smart move anyway you look at it.

No blinder folk than one who refuses to see, tbqh.

[Sugus]

Ok, name how many players that have become major contributing players in the NBA after spending time developing in the G league. My money is on that sample size being rather small.

It seems to me most evidence points to that nothing beats actual experience with the big leagues.

:lol the G-League's main page is exactly about debunking this. https://gleague.nba.com/.

Literally a sidebar list of players who had G-L stints and went on to have productive NBA careers, headlined by FVV, Siakam (notice the "luck" here :lmao), Gobert, Middleton, McCollum. And it goes on.

Great quote: "41% of players on start-of-season NBA rosters in 2021-22 had played in the G League". But sure, Primo's magically beyond this even though he's literally the youngest player in a giant-ladden league :lol

[B1gduff]

Lots. You still ignored me actually showing that the Spurs don't tend to have player who improve. You using evidence about a different situation doesn't make your claim the default. You want to assume the Spurs draft the 28th- to 30th-best prospects every year and end up with the 12th- or whatever-best players. If that were true, those players would start off mediocre or bad before over the years getting better and then ascending to being among the best of their class. We don't actually tend to see that. Instead, during the Medium-Three era, we saw some of the supporting guys gain half-hearted recognition as they grew into their roles and them nothing for the past half-decade despite the team drafting numerous prospects and needing guys to improve.

Assuming there were only 10 top-10 MIP candidates every year (which is often not true as there were ties for 10th place), there have been 120 MIP spots including the 2009-2010 season. That means each team should have an average of four players make the lists. The Spurs have had four players do so. That's with the Spurs purposefully lowering the players' starting points by shunting them to Austin. That's with the Spurs supposedly having a reputation for developing players to aid their vote counts. That's with the Spurs actually outdrafting their draft slots on multiple occassions.

So what gives? Well one thing is that the Spurs hardly ever draft projects. When they do, the players bust. Sam, Lonnie, LJC, Richards, Metu -- Murray is the only success among them, and his rise hasn't been quick at all. He at least should get legit MIP consideration this year, but you could (and I have, exhaustingly) argue his overall impact was stagnant for year before this season. So no, the Spurs aren't drafting guys that they are building up into good players. Instead, they tend to draft good players and let them adjust. Hill, White, Green, Bertans, Forbes and Mills were good players (well not Bryn, but he could shoot) who needed to adjust to the game. Certainly they've improved, but Spurs fans often overstate how much by assuming they were bad players or overrating how good they are. That's why folks can say that Johnson has been a developmental success when at best the jury is out on him right now.

The Spurs have never, ever, been a team that created good players at a rate higher than the average team. They might have had the best shooting coach in the league at one point, but overall, their strength came from being able to identify player who could help them and fitting them in. They don't need to hang their heads that they haven't turned crap into gold. I fully accept they haven't had prime stock to draw from. But I'm not the one claiming the Spurs developmental team is special. The numbers just don't back that up. To show otherwise, you'd have to show players' growth compared to that of players on other teams. It's harder than just posting win-shares by draft class, I admit. But at least it would be part of the discussion and not just a non-sequitur.



You Must have done your fair share of research I assume.
Like Green,Bertans,Mills weren't even drafted by the Spurs. Liek green got gut before becoming the player he was or is. Bertans is a bigger Forbes, Mills wasn't drafted by the Spurs either.
What the spurs did was identify there best skills and had them work on those skills.
Second fact:
Metu and Richards (if i have the right one): Were second round picks. If your expecting to find value in those picks, than your doing this entire thing wrong...... Plus Metu is still in the league and getting mins, and where he was slected...He ain't a bust..
LJC: yeah having two big injuries can end your career, ask Oden, parker and many more....he was the 28th pick aswell, and in the last decade or there only like 1 or 2 players picked 28th still in the league.
Lonnie: He's not a bust, he's more of a disappointment. He'll still be in the league after this year.

[Chinook]

Cho phrasing the question the way he did means that is a valid way of rebutting it. But for obvious reasons, the sidebar allows folks to overstate the extent to which those players played in the d-league. Primo's 12 games are already most than most of the guys on that list. Most people don't have an issue with Primo playing any d-league games at all. Instead, the push-back is mainly against the idea that he NEEDS to go to Austin to get the minutes and focus to develop. The list of players who developed largely away from their teams' big clubs and with their d-league teams is much, much smaller, and the players who might deserve to be on that list were very rarely more than solid rotation players in the league.

Go through the actual d-league stats: https://stats.gleague.nba.com/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

See how many of the points or minutes leaders in that league were actually future NBA players (not to be confused with former). As you go through the years, you might see a couple like Nunn, Caruso and even Christian Wood. But besides Wood (who's basically like a poor man's Cousins), the best true d-league graduates are role-players in the NBA. Most of the other notable ones are fringe players like Quinn Cook or washouts like Ray McCallum. Then the rest are non-NBA players. There's just not the evidence there to suggest that Primo getting a lot of high-usage minutes in Austin is a good developmental pathway. A handful of games or a quick match during a random break? Sure. As a way to get some run instead of being frozen out of a contending rotation? Unideal, but yes. As just a rubber-stamp matter of cause on a rebuilding team? No. The math isn't there. As I said before, defending this decision is attempting to rationalize something that wasn't reasoned into. Primo shouldn't be going back into the d-league. The only forces preventing him for a prominent rotation spot are those Pop is creating.

[Chinook]

You Must have done your fair share of research I assume.

Eh, I've done much more for posts in the past.


Like Green,Bertans,Mills weren't even drafted by the Spurs. Liek green got gut before becoming the player he was or is. Bertans is a bigger Forbes, Mills wasn't drafted by the Spurs either.

So Bertans was drafted by the Spurs. Yes, technically, his rights were traded as part of the George Hill deal. But that deal actually was fully agreed to before the Pacers were on the clock for their second-rounder. They were unambiguously making the pick for the Spurs, and Davis never had a reason to believe he was going to Indy.

Yes, I know Green and Mills weren't drafted by the Spurs. I agree with you that hte Spurs did identify their best skills, though I disagree that they specifically had the idea to have them work on the skills. I'm not saying the Spurs didn't tell them to work on their shooting, but rather than they weren't the only ones. If you actually read up on Green during his early years, you'd know he had quite the journey to become a solid NBA player, and much of that journey was before the Spurs signed him on. He was the one who decided to leave Europe to focus on his shooting so he could stick in the NBA. It was him hustling in the d-league with Jeremy Lin before the Spurs ever called him up. I'm sure they did help them, and he's almost certainly say they did. But did he develop over the course of his time in SA? I'd say not much at all. He added only tiny things to his game, like a couple of back-door cuts and a transition three he'd take when he was streaking well. Basically from 2012 on, he was a fantastic role-player for the team. His progression was basically flat.

The same is true for Mills in that he's always been a microwave guy. He went through some changes with the Spurs like bulking up or doing some PG things. But he's certainly not a huge developmental story either. That's okay, because as you said, the Spurs deserve credit for realizing how good those guys could be while other teams cut or renounced them. They just aren't' good example of development.


Metu and Richards (if i have the right one): Were second round picks. If your expecting to find value in those picks, than your doing this entire thing wrong

I don't blame the Spurs for not getting value from their picks. I think it's normal to expect those picks to bust. But the Spurs failing to develop projects is a sign they aren't actually superlative at developing players. Basically, the Spurs have had a lot of success finding guys who are basically NBA ready and getting them in positions to make a rotation. They haven't had much success taking raw players and developing their games.


Plus Metu is still in the league and getting mins, and where he was slected...He ain't a bust..LJC: yeah having two big injuries can end your career, ask Oden, parker and many more....he was the 28th pick aswell, and in the last decade or there only like 1 or 2 players picked 28th still in the league.
Lonnie: He's not a bust, he's more of a disappointment. He'll still be in the league after this year.

I'm not going to get into the semantics of what a bust is. You can make excuses for why all draft picks who don't succeed fail. You can make that argument about every pick by other teams as well. That people here will make those arguments and needle claims about Spurs players while not examining those about other players is how they end up looking at the Spurs' average developmental record and concluding that they're top tier. Like everyone else, the Spurs have had successes and failures. But they're like everyone else, not above them, and they're certainly not effective enough to be above questioning for using a methodology that has such a poor track record.

[Atl Spur]

Chinook……really? Please stop this foolishness for the sake of debating��

[Chinook]

Chinook……really? Please stop this foolishness for the sake of debating��

Go to Reddit if you want everyone to be lame, bro.

[Seventyniner]

I wouldn't call unloading a career long net negative stat guy like DeRozan for a career long net positive stat guy like Kawhi "lucky" in any sense of the word. It was an extremely intelligent trade for the Raptors, because even if they don't win the championship that year and Kawhi leaves, they still have a salary slot open for another big post-DeRozan move. And even if Golden State is healthy and beats them, it's still their first time in the finals. It was a smart move anyway you look at it.

The luck part wasn't making the trade, it was being able to make that trade. In a more sane world where Number Two doesn't go full dickwad, he stays with the Spurs and the Raptors never even get a chance at him.

The Raptors were in the right place at the right time, with the right assets to offer (still a shit sandwich, but more than anyone else was offering). That's luck.

[KingKev]

The Raptors were in the right place at the right time, with the right assets to offer (still a shit sandwich, but more than anyone else was offering). That's luck.

I agree with right place at right time and they absolutely had the right assets to offer but we still somehow got fleeced. Part of the reason they were in the right place at the right time was PATFO’s stubbornness and unwillingness to deal with rival west coast teams.

The Raps ate our lunch and we made it easy for them to do it. Danny Green and 5mm cash and we still couldn't get a proper young asset on a team full of them. If the

[Atl Spur]

Go to Reddit if you want everyone to be lame, bro.

It’s not even an argument! My friend, any team you mention has had tons of lottery picks compared to our late rounders. Draft position matters right? And because it should, how do we continue to find serviceable NBA players in the late picks? Dude we didn’t have a lottery pick for like twenty years�� We aren’t the gold standard because we say so……..

[Atl Spur]

If we didn’t know what we were doing, why does so many organizations have our stamp on them? Surely we can’t fool all the great basketball minds out there can we? No other organization has a bigger influence on the league than us….coincidence? I think not!!

[Atl Spur]

I agree with right place at right time and they absolutely had the right assets to offer but we still somehow got fleeced. Part of the reason they were in the right place at the right time was PATFO’s stubbornness and unwillingness to deal with rival west coast teams.

The Raps ate our lunch and we made it easy for them to do it. Danny Green and 5mm cash and we still couldn't get a proper young asset on a team full of them. If the

We can’t win every trade or transaction….it’s crazy to think we can! It’s called leverage and we had none with that Kawhi trade! Monday morning quarterback is an easy game to play but we’ve obviously had more better days than bad. We still made a decent lemonade out of that situation considering all things.

[Atl Spur]

This thread is supposed to be about Primo….

[KingKev]

We can’t win every trade or transaction….it’s crazy to think we can! It’s called leverage and we had none with that Kawhi trade! Monday morning quarterback is an easy game to play but we’ve obviously had more better days than bad. We still made a decent lemonade out of that situation considering all things.

The little leverage we had was neutralized by our goal of sending Kawhi to the worst possible destination and not entertaining his preferred landing spots. It was never about winning the trade or the situation but should have been about optimizing the situation. Pre-trade, and post mortem 1 month, 1yr, 5yrs later we did not fair very well.

I agree though this thread is about Primo, one of the few bright spots these days.

[Chinook]

Dude we didn’t have a lottery pick for like twenty years.

And it shows. That's the point. No one should have expected to Spurs to have great talent after not being in position to draft great talent for years. The Spurs do a good job of finding talent later in the draft and a mediocre job of developing that talent. That's why they're not a good team now. The Spurs have some of the worst talent in the NBA despite apparently being the gold standard for development. That means either the Spurs are comparatively great but that development in general sucks or that the Spurs aren't great. No amount of spitball logic that refuses to actually engage with the arguments will change that the Spurs don't have a metric to show they've made their guys better at a rate beyond what an average team would do.

[Chinook]

And ugh, for the millionth time: There were theoretical trade packages that were better than what Leonard got, but most teams were completely unwilling to pay anything but pittances for him. Magic (horrendous GM that he was) thought he had the leverage to make the Spurs take Deng AND get Murray in return. Philly didn't want to include fucking Saric in the deal. LAC wanted to keep one of their first-rounders that year. The Spurs could have made the DeRozan deal work IF they were willing to go all in and play a bit of hard ball. They should have kept Green. They should have gone ahead and acquired the third guy to put around DMDR and LMA. The Spurs could have made a real run at the West that season while still keeping all of their future picks. They basically could have been like the Bulls this year. They instead decided to take a step back while trying to develop around DeRozan and Aldridge. It turns out that they weren't able to right the ship before those guys left.

It was arguably a poor choice, but that'll depend on what kind of player Murray ends up being for the Spurs going forward. If he's the leader in a new era of winning, keeping him and going through the eventual lean years could be good. If he is meh or leaves the team soon without bringing in a franchise-altering return, I think the Spurs would have been better off burning brightly before going out rather than decaying the way they have over the past year.

[MultiTroll]

What is Primos status for tonights game?

[KingKev]

And it shows. That's the point. No one should have expected to Spurs to have great talent after not being in position to draft great talent for years. The Spurs do a good job of finding talent later in the draft and a mediocre job of developing that talent. That's why they're not a good team now. The Spurs have some of the worst talent in the NBA despite apparently being the gold standard for development. That means either the Spurs are comparatively great but that development in general sucks or that the Spurs aren't great. No amount of spitball logic that refuses to actually engage with the arguments will change that the Spurs don't have a metric to show they've made their guys better at a rate beyond what an average team would do.

Yeah it’s not easy to disect player development. Kahwi worked his ass off and would have been great no matter where he landed. Coming in and slowly being given responsibikity on a dynasty where his skill-set was in need was luck, timing, development and everything else, but he would have been great regardless.

DJ seems to have an x-factor also where he would have thrived in most environments to outplay his draft position. Coach Pop’s mentoring, probably Parker’s also likely helped but he would still be a solid player anywhere I suspect.

All else equal I’d say history has shown we have pretty good ability for the whole process; scouting, drafting, nurturing and developing. We are definitely above league average.

These next 3-5 years drafting consistently top 10 should make PATFO’s life much easier in this regard.

[Atl Spur]

And it shows. That's the point. No one should have expected to Spurs to have great talent after not being in position to draft great talent for years. The Spurs do a good job of finding talent later in the draft and a mediocre job of developing that talent. That's why they're not a good team now. The Spurs have some of the worst talent in the NBA despite apparently being the gold standard for development. That means either the Spurs are comparatively great but that development in general sucks or that the Spurs aren't great. No amount of spitball logic that refuses to actually engage with the arguments will change that the Spurs don't have a metric to show they've made their guys better at a rate beyond what an average team would do.

So making the playoffs over such a long period time without top flight talent & free agents don’t support the excellence? This is not the hill to die on debating.

[Atl Spur]

Who’s done better with late pick drafting than us? I’ll wait…. In fact our picks have outperformed selections in drafts made before them.

[Atl Spur]

And ugh, for the millionth time: There were theoretical trade packages that were better than what Leonard got, but most teams were completely unwilling to pay anything but pittances for him. Magic (horrendous GM that he was) thought he had the leverage to make the Spurs take Deng AND get Murray in return. Philly didn't want to include fucking Saric in the deal. LAC wanted to keep one of their first-rounders that year. The Spurs could have made the DeRozan deal work IF they were willing to go all in and play a bit of hard ball. They should have kept Green. They should have gone ahead and acquired the third guy to put around DMDR and LMA. The Spurs could have made a real run at the West that season while still keeping all of their future picks. They basically could have been like the Bulls this year. They instead decided to take a step back while trying to develop around DeRozan and Aldridge. It turns out that they weren't able to right the ship before those guys left.

It was arguably a poor choice, but that'll depend on what kind of player Murray ends up being for the Spurs going forward. If he's the leader in a new era of winning, keeping him and going through the eventual lean years could be good. If he is meh or leaves the team soon without bringing in a franchise-altering return, I think the Spurs would have been better off burning brightly before going out rather than decaying the way they have over the past year.

Decaying?? Lol. Dude it’s been two or three bad years! Wow, every organization goes through this , we fortunately haven’t as much! We’ll be fine

[emanueldavidginobili]

What is Primos status for tonights game?
Looks like he is available for tonights game, they sent Joe W and Cacok back to Austin and not Josh.

[KobesAchilles]

Even though he got scored on by Bradley Beal that one possession when we played the Wizards I still like the fact that we are playing him real minutes. The kid is going to make a lot of mistakes, but this is the time to do it. On a team that doesn't really care about mistakes since we aren't winning anyway. I just want him to be more selfish and call his number more often. A tall order for a rookie but there aren't really any vets on the team anyways soo he shouldn't be deferring.

[emanueldavidginobili]

1481467899843948550

[KingKev]

Even though he got scored on by Bradley Beal that one possession when we played the Wizards I still like the fact that we are playing him real minutes. The kid is going to make a lot of mistakes, but this is the time to do it.

Imagine getting scored on, on that one possession by All-NBA Bradley Beal?!? It’s not just kids who get scored on by all NBA talent.

[MultiTroll]

Even though he got scored on by Bradley Beal that one possession when we played the Wizards I still like the fact that we are playing him real minutes. The kid is going to make a lot of mistakes, but this is the time to do it. On a team that doesn't really care about mistakes since we aren't winning anyway. I just want him to be more selfish and call his number more often. A tall order for a rookie but there aren't really any vets on the team anyways soo he shouldn't be deferring.


Imagine getting scored on, on that one possession by All-NBA Bradley Beal?!? It’s not just kids who get scored on by all NBA talent.
I'm sure glad Bryn Forms minutes are not reduced when he gets scored on by All-NBA players.

[Sugus]

Cho phrasing the question the way he did means that is a valid way of rebutting it. But for obvious reasons, the sidebar allows folks to overstate the extent to which those players played in the d-league. Primo's 12 games are already most than most of the guys on that list. Most people don't have an issue with Primo playing any d-league games at all. Instead, the push-back is mainly against the idea that he NEEDS to go to Austin to get the minutes and focus to develop. The list of players who developed largely away from their teams' big clubs and with their d-league teams is much, much smaller, and the players who might deserve to be on that list were very rarely more than solid rotation players in the league.

Go through the actual d-league stats: https://stats.gleague.nba.com/players/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

See how many of the points or minutes leaders in that league were actually future NBA players (not to be confused with former). As you go through the years, you might see a couple like Nunn, Caruso and even Christian Wood. But besides Wood (who's basically like a poor man's Cousins), the best true d-league graduates are role-players in the NBA. Most of the other notable ones are fringe players like Quinn Cook or washouts like Ray McCallum. Then the rest are non-NBA players. There's just not the evidence there to suggest that Primo getting a lot of high-usage minutes in Austin is a good developmental pathway. A handful of games or a quick match during a random break? Sure. As a way to get some run instead of being frozen out of a contending rotation? Unideal, but yes. As just a rubber-stamp matter of cause on a rebuilding team? No. The math isn't there. As I said before, defending this decision is attempting to rationalize something that wasn't reasoned into. Primo shouldn't be going back into the d-league. The only forces preventing him for a prominent rotation spot are those Pop is creating.

You can quote me, it's alright :lol

I don't much care how much each player played in the G-L, tbh. It's not a dent in my argument to me. The fact remains that multiple players used the G-L as a training ground, and came out better from it. It's (IMO) extremely foolish to try to "dissect" these numbers and try to come up with some barometer (e.g. players shouldn't play more than X amount of GL games if they want to develop correctly! You should only give them X minutes or X amounts of possessions!), because there's an insane number of factors that start to muddy the picture up. How can you tell me with any certainty that, for example, had FVV played 10 more GL games than he did, he would've been worse for it? It's way too far into the realm of hypothesis to have any sort of significance. The facts, as far as I'm concerned, are what I posted. There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to use the GL because development, at its core, is not linear; and Primo, youngest player in the league, is absolutely an outlier, moreover.

Secondly, I really disagree with your notion that "defending this decision is attempting to rationalize something that wasn't reasoned into". Again, realm of hypothesis trying to pass off as fact - I expect better from you, Chino! How do you know there was no reasoning there? If the Spurs believe the GL is the best path towards development, there's certainly reasoning there. Agree or disagree with their strategy - go show Pop your developmental stats if you want to - it's simply not true, or unknowable at the least. Trying to use that "fact" as dismissive of the Spurs' development strategy is weird.

And lastly, why do you keep saying there's "no evidence" that Primo getting high usage minutes leads to better development, while conflating it with a "he shouldn't be getting those minutes" rhetoric? Again, disingenuous. Facts: Primo played a mostly off-ball role in his lone season in college, a season where he also was supposed to still be in HS (meaning, already unnaturally low amount of in-game reps and experience, for any prospect, AND extremely low on-ball reps of any kind). If, as we see, he gets main handling and offense-running duties in the GL, the level of competition is inherently less important than the fact that he's playing an entirely different game than he's used to. Could he play the same game with the Spurs? No - as we've seen, Dejounte is far too dominant a ball-handler (and White too, and most players on our team tbh given that most of them are happy to dribble around) for Primo to get those same reps. He's relegated to, again, more of an off-ball role. I've seen this myself in the games I've watched where he's played.

So.... Disagree pretty heavily with your post, my man. Stats are stats, yes, but they can be interpreted a myriad of different ways, for all sorts of purposes, and here I don't think they tell the story you're painting, simple as that. Not to mention, there can not be evidence for something that hasn't been done before... Primo could perfectly be the first great player (hell, the first MVP player, FMVP, why not? Lol) to get heavy GL usage. It's a different discussion, and the fact remains that we simply don't know, but you keep acting as if it's all foregone conclusions.

E: Just to be perfectly clear - I'm extremely happy Primo is getting heavy NBA minutes now, it's very good for him and for the "tanking" Spurs. My point is, I want Primo to get both NBA and GL minutes. He's certainly not old enough to have his body crumble over it, and isn't playing heavy usage enough to have it affect his game.

[Chinook]

Decaying?? Lol. Dude it’s been two or three bad years! Wow, every organization goes through this , we fortunately haven’t as much! We’ll be fine

You're misinterpreting the phrasing to give it a more negative connotation than I meant it. It refers to how the Spurs got into their rebuilding state (by letting guys expire and walk after declining for multiple) rather than a more acute rebuild. In this context, it was referring to them making aggressive trades around DeRozan and then blowing it up if it didn't work rather than allowing the team to get worse and worse over years before finally rebuilding when they were so bad they couldn't win even with modest free-agent signings.

[KobesAchilles]

Secondly, I really disagree with your notion that "defending this decision is attempting to rationalize something that wasn't reasoned into". Again, realm of hypothesis trying to pass off as fact - I expect better from you, Chino! How do you know there was no reasoning there? If the Spurs believe the GL is the best path towards development, there's certainly reasoning there. Agree or disagree with their strategy - go show Pop your developmental stats if you want to - it's simply not true, or unknowable at the least. Trying to use that "fact" as dismissive of the Spurs' development strategy is weird.




.
There is a lot of failures in trying to give young guys minutes right away and those teams developing bad habits throughout the years, think of a player like Towns who somehow sucks at defense bc of lack of effort since nobody held him accountable. But there are almost no success stories of G-League players playing at an all-star level. If we want a role player in Primo then this is about the worst way you can develop him. i do doubt the Spurs in this method.

First off, how is Primo being away from the greatest coach of all time and instead being coached by a second hand one seem smart? Even if Pop does "oversee" him it's not much more than 5 minute reports. Pop has like one maybe two years left. soak up all the knowledge you can straight from the source.

Secondly, it is a bad way of developing bc when we do bring in Primo, we are putting him in a completely new situation. All the posters here claim that Primo learns the system and gets used to the system, but not on offense. On offense in the GL he is the guy as a rookie. His second year he plays situational minutes and basically defers all game long. That stunts his growth by making him learn two new roles. If you want him to go the Kawhi route and slowly become the man then play him like you did Kawhi and have him defer as a rookie and play hard and tough with the big boys. Don't tell him run the offense and then jk jk sit in the corner now for the year.

And lastly, we suck. We aren't contending anyways. There is ZERO reason why Forbes is/was playing over Primo. None. Pop can't justify it and neither can you. Play the kid. Even if he does get scored on by Bradley Beal on a possession.

[Chinook]

You can quote me, it's alright :lol

I hit reply instead of quote and reply, and them someone posted while I was typing.


I don't much care how much each player played in the G-L, tbh. It's not a dent in my argument to me.

The way Cho phrased their post, this is true. But I don't think anyone is seriously making the argument that Primo could never be assigned to Austin at all or that there aren't good players who've played any time in the d-league.


How can you tell me with any certainty that, for example, had FVV played 10 more GL games than he did, he would've been worse for it?

This is having an argument that I don't think anyone else is having. The argument isn't over whether the d-league can help. It's over whether the reasons to assign Primo to the d-league make sense. In that scope, showing that future NBA players aren't the ones playing lots of d-league games in high-usage roles is totally relevant, because that's what some people have literally suggested Primo needs.


There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to use the GL because development, at its core, is not linear; and Primo, youngest player in the league, is absolutely an outlier, moreover.

Okay, so when people say he needs to go there, they're making a claim that there's a right way to use the d-league and that the Spurs have found that way. Your claim runs counter to that. You want to have the argument that people are anti-d-league. Some folks might be. But from what I've seen, the push-back is coming from the assumption that Primo should be in Austin instead of San Antonio because raw players need d-league time to develop. No one's arguing over whether Josh would be ruined if he played five or six games there.


How do you know there was no reasoning there? If the Spurs believe the GL is the best path towards development, there's certainly reasoning there.

We aren't arguing over what the Spurs think. They can think whatever, and it won't be affected by us. What I'm talking about is what posters think. You know this, hence why you (mis)quote me saying "defending this decision" rather than "making this decision". I don't think posters have rationally worked their way into defending the decision to send Primo back to Austin. Why I said that has been the content of basically all of my subsequent contributions to this thread. What I'm not doing is "realm of hypothesis trying to pass off as fact" -- that's just a lame attempt to cry for a whistle. I led the post off by saying "I think...", and thusly did not try to pass it off like it's anything other than my interpretation. More importantly, though, even if I hadn't said explicitly that it was my opinion, that doesn't mean that I'm saying it's a fact. That's not how English works. That kind of statement cannot be a fact -- it can only be a belief. So no matter how strongly I stated it, it's not going to be a fact. I know this. I assume you know this. So we don't have to keep wasting time on that type of rebuttal.


And lastly, why do you keep saying there's "no evidence" that Primo getting high usage minutes leads to better development, while conflating it with a "he shouldn't be getting those minutes" rhetoric?

I'm going to go ahead and try to work this into the form I think you meant it to be. I said there isn't evidence that high-usage roles in the d-league is a necessary or at least more ideal method to develop players than getting lower-usage minutes in the NBA. So I think that you're asking why am I saying that and then asserting he shouldn't be getting high-usage minutes in the d-league. I rephrased it because I wasn't making a case that there's no evidence about Primo specifically, because we don't have any alternative data to look at. I can't make a comparative claim between d-league and NBA minutes on one player's development, because we don't have the other scenario to judge. In your science analog, we don't have the control case.

I assume you're not trying to frame what I'm saying disingenuously and just got tangled up in your words. However, it's also possible that you have been misunderstanding what I've been saying.


Facts: Primo played a mostly off-ball role in his lone season in college, a season where he also was supposed to still be in HS (meaning, already unnaturally low amount of in-game reps and experience, for any prospect, AND extremely low on-ball reps of any kind). If, as we see, he gets main handling and offense-running duties in the GL, the level of competition is inherently less important than the fact that he's playing an entirely different game than he's used to. Could he play the same game with the Spurs? No - as we've seen, Dejounte is far too dominant a ball-handler (and White too, and most players on our team tbh given that most of them are happy to dribble around) for Primo to get those same reps. He's relegated to, again, more of an off-ball role. I've seen this myself in the games I've watched where he's played.

So I've definitely addressed this multiple times. The idea that Primo is getting on-ball minutes in Austin and would not likely see that role in SA is not contested ground. I don't know if you've skipped over most of what I wrote, but in the post that you literally (mis)quote, I talk about that. I really think you should go back and read what I actually write before trying to come in here and pick it apart.


So.... Disagree pretty heavily with your post, my man.

From what I can tell? You don't actually disagree with it in substance. You rather strawmaned it and them disagreed with that. There's no better evidence for it than you assuming I've said Primo shouldn't go to the d-league when that hasn't been the point of my posts.


Not to mention, there can not be evidence for something that hasn't been done before... Primo could perfectly be the first great player (hell, the first MVP player, FMVP, why not? Lol) to get heavy GL usage. Stats are stats, yes, but they can be interpreted a myriad of different ways, for all sorts of purposes, and here I don't think they tell the story you're painting, simple as that.

However, this IS an irrational position, and it's exactly why I made that first post. You can believe whatever you want, but you can't argue that belief is coming from evidence. When you try to start stacking arguments to justify that position, then you'll actually run into the meat of what I posts were addressing.

[Chinook]

There is a lot of failures in trying to give young guys minutes right away and those teams developing bad habits throughout the years, think of a player like Towns who somehow sucks at defense bc of lack of effort since nobody held him accountable. But there are almost no success stories of G-League players playing at an all-star level. If we want a role player in Primo then this is about the worst way you can develop him. i do doubt the Spurs in this method.

First off, how is Primo being away from the greatest coach of all time and instead being coached by a second hand one seem smart? Even if Pop does "oversee" him it's not much more than 5 minute reports. Pop has like one maybe two years left. soak up all the knowledge you can straight from the source.

Secondly, it is a bad way of developing bc when we do bring in Primo, we are putting him in a completely new situation. All the posters here claim that Primo learns the system and gets used to the system, but not on offense. On offense in the GL he is the guy as a rookie. His second year he plays situational minutes and basically defers all game long. That stunts his growth by making him learn two new roles. If you want him to go the Kawhi route and slowly become the man then play him like you did Kawhi and have him defer as a rookie and play hard and tough with the big boys. Don't tell him run the offense and then jk jk sit in the corner now for the year.

And lastly, we suck. We aren't contending anyways. There is ZERO reason why Forbes is/was playing over Primo. None. Pop can't justify it and neither can you. Play the kid. Even if he does get scored on by Bradley Beal on a possession.

Yeah, this whole, "You don't know this for sure, so stop giving your opinion on it" line of argument is bunk. Also Pop not liking stats or an interpretation of stats doesn't mean shit. Obviously he think he's doing the right thing and isn't going to listen to some chode telling him he's wrong. That doesn't make him right, and it doesn't give him evidence that he's right if he did want to make that argument.

[TD 21]

The luck part wasn't making the trade, it was being able to make that trade. In a more sane world where Number Two doesn't go full dickwad, he stays with the Spurs and the Raptors never even get a chance at him.

The Raptors were in the right place at the right time, with the right assets to offer (still a shit sandwich, but more than anyone else was offering). That's luck.

Thank you for having common sense. Hard to believe this needs to be explained to supposed Spurs fans of all people, but some people are apparently that dense.

I'll just add, even had he wanted out, if he didn't intentionally destroy his value and the Raptors wanted in the conversation, one of Siakam/Anunoby and at least another 1st would have been prerequisites. That's why, even though it's not their fault, I refer to their championship as tainted.



They should have kept Green.

Yeah, as I've said umpteen times, even considering the circumstances, they should have been forced to take Gasol instead of being handed Green.

[Sugus]

1. There is a lot of failures in trying to give young guys minutes right away and those teams developing bad habits throughout the years, think of a player like Towns who somehow sucks at defense bc of lack of effort since nobody held him accountable. But there are almost no success stories of G-League players playing at an all-star level. If we want a role player in Primo then this is about the worst way you can develop him. i do doubt the Spurs in this method.

2. First off, how is Primo being away from the greatest coach of all time and instead being coached by a second hand one seem smart? Even if Pop does "oversee" him it's not much more than 5 minute reports. Pop has like one maybe two years left. soak up all the knowledge you can straight from the source.

3. Secondly, it is a bad way of developing bc when we do bring in Primo, we are putting him in a completely new situation. All the posters here claim that Primo learns the system and gets used to the system, but not on offense. On offense in the GL he is the guy as a rookie. His second year he plays situational minutes and basically defers all game long. That stunts his growth by making him learn two new roles. If you want him to go the Kawhi route and slowly become the man then play him like you did Kawhi and have him defer as a rookie and play hard and tough with the big boys. Don't tell him run the offense and then jk jk sit in the corner now for the year.

4. And lastly, we suck. We aren't contending anyways. There is ZERO reason why Forbes is/was playing over Primo. None. Pop can't justify it and neither can you. Play the kid. Even if he does get scored on by Bradley Beal on a possession.

1. There's almost no "success stories" regarding star players and the GL because top draft picks, who by a WIDE margin are the ones who end up becoming stars, simply skip the GL altogether. This is because they come into the league with a sufficiently high floor and physical development to contribute, and bang, straight away (think LeBron, Luka, et al, they don't need to "grow into" their bodies nor develop basic aspects of their games; if they did, they wouldn't get picked top 3). Primo isn't that. And while I'm fully aboard the Primo wagon and think he can be a significant contributor to the league... LeBron, Luka level? Yeah, not quite. As you said, there's many players like KAT who were hindered by getting thrown into the fire - why is the argument not made that the GL could've helped them instead? I wonder...

2. I don't think Primo playing in Austin means he's too far away from Pop to get coached, TBQH. Firstly, now more than ever, everyone's connected - a Zoom away. Secondly, Primo both attends Spurs practices and Spurs games now, so he's getting coached alright. There's also developmental staff following him throughout practices and into Austin games, it's not like Pop is the be-all, end-all of coaching/development. Thirdly, well, I'm of the opinion that the modern NBA has passed Pop by a bit... Not sure I want him telling Primo that 3's are overrated too much :lol. But that's beside the point.

3. Disagree. Matter-of-fact, when we bring in Primo to the Spurs, we're playing him in exactly the role he's been accustomed his whole life, which is a major part of my argument. His lone season of college was spent playing off-ball, C&S style behind "more talented" on-ball players, which is exactly what he does when he spots up in the corner as DJ does his midrange pullups. On the contrary, down in Austin, he develops into an entirely different, ball-dominant game, which he's shown much potential and adeption for, so these reps are meaningful; I'd actually wager that, given these circumstances, Primo can make better use of Austin than most assignees, who mostly go down to work on just a specific part of their game. Above all, Primo needs reps... Which is why I'm very glad that he's playing both Austin AND Spurs. Lastly, Kawhi was an entirely different bodytype, player type, and previous-experience-to-the-NBA type, not very comparable. Had Primo been Mr California twice or some shit like that, he might've been brought up differently, who knows?

4. Ahh, this one I agree on. Zero reason for Forbes to play, especially if he's not gonna get traded (as we all know). Definitely blame Pop for this one. But still, it's not exactly like Primo is the only other option at SG... Lonnie or Devin or whomever could soak up those minutes, too, just saying. But yeah, less Forbes por favor. But also - you do know Primo played like 40 minutes two games ago, right? Lol. That's exactly what I'm saying.... Austin and Spurs, please!

[exstatic]

Yeah, this whole, "You don't know this for sure, so stop giving your opinion on it" line of argument is bunk. Also Pop not liking stats or an interpretation of stats doesn't mean shit. Obviously he think he's doing the right thing and isn't going to listen to some chode telling him he's wrong. That doesn't make him right, and it doesn't give him evidence that he's right if he did want to make that argument.

This from a guy who thinks the popularity contest known as the MIP vote is a valid way of judging player improvement year over year…

[Chinook]

This from a guy who thinks the popularity contest known as the MIP vote is a valid way of judging player improvement year over year…

It should be given that you think the people who vote on it believe the Spurs are a great developmental staff. It'd be weird to think that but never seem to think any of their players are among the most improved. Also, of all the major awards, MIP is probably the least political. Historically, the winners come from small-market teams. You could just look at the list instead of assuming you're right and don't have to support your argument.

[KobesAchilles]

1. There's almost no "success stories" regarding star players and the GL because top draft picks, who by a WIDE margin are the ones who end up becoming stars, simply skip the GL altogether. This is because they come into the league with a sufficiently high floor and physical development to contribute, and bang, straight away (think LeBron, Luka, et al, they don't need to "grow into" their bodies nor develop basic aspects of their games; if they did, they wouldn't get picked top 3). Primo isn't that. And while I'm fully aboard the Primo wagon and think he can be a significant contributor to the league... LeBron, Luka level? Yeah, not quite. As you said, there's many players like KAT who were hindered by getting thrown into the fire - why is the argument not made that the GL could've helped them instead? I wonder...

2. I don't think Primo playing in Austin means he's too far away from Pop to get coached, TBQH. Firstly, now more than ever, everyone's connected - a Zoom away. Secondly, Primo both attends Spurs practices and Spurs games now, so he's getting coached alright. There's also developmental staff following him throughout practices and into Austin games, it's not like Pop is the be-all, end-all of coaching/development. Thirdly, well, I'm of the opinion that the modern NBA has passed Pop by a bit... Not sure I want him telling Primo that 3's are overrated too much :lol. But that's beside the point.

3. Disagree. Matter-of-fact, when we bring in Primo to the Spurs, we're playing him in exactly the role he's been accustomed his whole life, which is a major part of my argument. His lone season of college was spent playing off-ball, C&S style behind "more talented" on-ball players, which is exactly what he does when he spots up in the corner as DJ does his midrange pullups. On the contrary, down in Austin, he develops into an entirely different, ball-dominant game, which he's shown much potential and adeption for, so these reps are meaningful; I'd actually wager that, given these circumstances, Primo can make better use of Austin than most assignees, who mostly go down to work on just a specific part of their game. Above all, Primo needs reps... Which is why I'm very glad that he's playing both Austin AND Spurs. Lastly, Kawhi was an entirely different bodytype, player type, and previous-experience-to-the-NBA type, not very comparable. Had Primo been Mr California twice or some shit like that, he might've been brought up differently, who knows?

4. Ahh, this one I agree on. Zero reason for Forbes to play, especially if he's not gonna get traded (as we all know). Definitely blame Pop for this one. But still, it's not exactly like Primo is the only other option at SG... Lonnie or Devin or whomever could soak up those minutes, too, just saying. But yeah, less Forbes por favor. But also - you do know Primo played like 40 minutes two games ago, right? Lol. That's exactly what I'm saying.... Austin and Spurs, please!

1. Primo is our second highest draft pick so he is a top draft pick. he might not be a #1 guy but a lotto pick nonetheless. If we truly believe in our player development it should be with the big boys not the YMCA crew. Also Primo isn't on a contender. It's fine to send our top pick when its White and he's the 29th pick and we have Kawhi and are beasting. But on a bad team, you play your players even if they are young. The GL route is for role players. If that's the ceiling you think Primo is at then this is the perfect route for him. He doesn't need to be Lebron, but if you want him at an allstar level or believe he has that type of potential then you don't go the route of full time GL

2. Pop gives him zero coaching when he's in Austin. He has 15 other players, 7 other assistant coaches, and basketball operations to run. The dude isn't facetiming Primo. He does a short, once a week meeting with his Austin coaches, and they probably facetime him and that's the extent of it. Also as far as practice goes it's almost guratneed thee same thing. Primo works with different assistants while Pop works with the actual team.

3. I know he was the 4th option in Bama. That's what I would like for him to start off as with us. Play hard and defer in the beginning. The thing is that it takes waay longer to play as the man than just a one year stint in the GL. He's not gonna go oh I remember this one time in the GL I did this. He has to practice on actual pros to be the man not buncha YMCA stiffs. I mean Sammich puts up 28 and 12 so don't tell me there's a high quality of players there. So yes this is a waste of time in this regard. If you're gonna play him in both then I can argue that it's not a waste, but this whole year in Austin thing while barely playing in the pros isn't a good development strategy.

[Chomag]

If you truly want player development on a higher level talent then you put them up against that said high level talent. Playing against scrubs teaches nothing that advances his skills. I see people bringing up the game against Bradley Beal, I garente Primo learned allot more from that 1 night then he ever did in a full month of G League.

If the player is good and really has high talent then he will learn just as many other big time players have throughout the years

[Dejounte]

If any Joe Schmo knows the proper way to develop NBA players, anybody would be hired. It’s so funny to watch the back and forth in this thread and all the “WELL IF THEY DID IT THIS WAY, IT WOULD WORK! DUH” Yeah, the answer is so obvious. Sure… y’all crack me up. Leave it to ST to think they know best.

[objective]

If you truly want player development on a higher level talent then you put them up against that said high level talent. Playing against scrubs teaches nothing that advances his skills. I see people bringing up the game against Bradley Beal, I garente Primo learned allot more from that 1 night then he ever did in a full month of G League.

If the player is good and really has high talent then he will learn just as many other big time players have throughout the years

I agree.

Being the man in the g-league can be fool's gold as far as preparing him for the NBA as the man.

Tuning his game to dominate the g-league against smaller players, slower players, dumber players, less lengthy players, poor rim protecting bigs, players who don't help, teams with bad defensive teamwork because people rotate on and off the roster nonstop .... He's going to have to adjust to the real thing anyway eventually.

Start him adjusting to NBA speed, length, and iq earlier than later.

[B1gduff]

Damn i thought people would have learned from the lonnie alker experience.....Guess not. Most of St closes there eats and eyes and ignore that facts.

[BackHome]

I agree.

Being the man in the g-league can be fool's gold as far as preparing him for the NBA as the man.

Tuning his game to dominate the g-league against smaller players, slower players, dumber players, less lengthy players, poor rim protecting bigs, players who don't help, teams with bad defensive teamwork because people rotate on and off the roster nonstop .... He's going to have to adjust to the real thing anyway eventually.

Start him adjusting to NBA speed, length, and iq earlier than later.

He is getting minutes he needs at a position he can’t play yet in the NBA which is PG/SG. If you had him playing this role as a starter in the big team he would get killed. His whole college career was run to corner and shoot the 3 ball yeah he was drafted caused he showed he has some handles and could be more then a 3 and D player but that takes work and a lot of reps. I like he is getting minutes with both teams and think in the long road it will help him out

I think if you look at Vassell he clearly would have benefited from playin G League I think him not being able to get that opportunity has hurt his development.

[Sugus]

He is getting minutes he needs at a position he can’t play yet in the NBA which is PG/SG. If you had him playing this role as a starter in the big team he would get killed. His whole college career was run to corner and shoot the 3 ball yeah he was drafted caused he showed he has some handles and could be more then a 3 and D player but that takes work and a lot of reps. I like he is getting minutes with both teams and think in the long road it will help him out

I think if you look at Vassell he clearly would have benefited from playin G League I think him not being able to get that opportunity has hurt his development.

Couldn't agree more. I could understand the GL criticism when Primo was exclusively playing there, even though I disagreed. But now? He's getting the best of both worlds, tbh. He's playing a somewhat consistent bench role for the Spurs, AND a top-dog role in Austin. Why anyone would be mad about this diversifying of skills/practices is baffling.

And I'd have loved to see more Vassell in GL. He certainly looks like he could've used some more polishing on the offensive end, especially regarding being confident in his shot/calling his own number and finding ways to score even when the 3 isn't falling. But maybe it was playing in the Cursed GL at all that corrupted him...? :lol

[Sugus]

1. Primo is our second highest draft pick so he is a top draft pick. he might not be a #1 guy but a lotto pick nonetheless. If we truly believe in our player development it should be with the big boys not the YMCA crew. Also Primo isn't on a contender. It's fine to send our top pick when its White and he's the 29th pick and we have Kawhi and are beasting. But on a bad team, you play your players even if they are young. The GL route is for role players. If that's the ceiling you think Primo is at then this is the perfect route for him. He doesn't need to be Lebron, but if you want him at an allstar level or believe he has that type of potential then you don't go the route of full time GL

2. Pop gives him zero coaching when he's in Austin. He has 15 other players, 7 other assistant coaches, and basketball operations to run. The dude isn't facetiming Primo. He does a short, once a week meeting with his Austin coaches, and they probably facetime him and that's the extent of it. Also as far as practice goes it's almost guratneed thee same thing. Primo works with different assistants while Pop works with the actual team.

3. I know he was the 4th option in Bama. That's what I would like for him to start off as with us. Play hard and defer in the beginning. The thing is that it takes waay longer to play as the man than just a one year stint in the GL. He's not gonna go oh I remember this one time in the GL I did this. He has to practice on actual pros to be the man not buncha YMCA stiffs. I mean Sammich puts up 28 and 12 so don't tell me there's a high quality of players there. So yes this is a waste of time in this regard. If you're gonna play him in both then I can argue that it's not a waste, but this whole year in Austin thing while barely playing in the pros isn't a good development strategy.

1. Why did you jump over everything I wrote about top draft picks and why they skip the GL, only to make a painfully obvious observation? Yes, Primo is our "top pick"... Which doesn't at all mean that he's got a high enough floor to get NBA minutes off the gate, both body-wise and skill-wise. He's pulled some nice moves and shots over the last few games (BTW, notice how he's been getting consistent bench NBA minutes... Shocking!) but also a fair share of blunders and "overmatchedness". Why do you think the "player development" aspect of the Spurs doesn't include Austin in its picture, given it's such a prominent feature of the Spurs' program? :lol. Entirely disagree that, given a bad team, you just drop your players into the fire and let them burn. As you yourself said, KAT and numerous other players have been negatively impacted by that. The Spurs are wiser... Or at least, they try to be, I guess.

2. Pop coaches him up all the time, at practices (where he's with the Spurs team) and in-game too. Literally saw him talking to Primo this very night during the game. I truly wonder what kind of Old Man Sage you think Pop can't impart to Primo if he's off to Austin for a few days/weeks.... But I assure you, it's not as important as you think. Again, Pop is not the be-all end-all of development, and numerous coaches aid in this department (recent example with Lonnie and Manu, just to name one). I don't know where you got this idea that Primo is somehow "missing out" on Pop but it's ludicrous and demonstrably false if you watch the games.

3. So, you want him to play... As he played tonight? Where he had 1 FGA and deferred & defended while he was on the court? Damn, if only my wishes were so easily granted...

Of course he's not gonna go "oh, I remember this one time in the GL..." in the middle of an NBA game :lmao. That's not how practice works. You train and train and repeat exercises until your body does them without thinking - which is exactly why the development he gets in Austin isn't quantifiable. You can't do video sessions of in-game reps, and you can't get in-game reps if you're not on the top of the pecking order. Not to be repetitive, but tonight's game is a PERFECT example of what I said to you in my last comment.... Did Primo get "the man" ball-handling and playmaking duties tonight? Not in the slightest. He got "role-player" reps, which is absolutely fine and an important part of his development, too. But I want him running the PnR to death, over and over and over again, until he gets it right... And again, he's not gonna do that on the Spurs, no matter how blatant the "tank" ever gets. There's simply a pecking order and he's nowhere near the top of it.

Lastly, can you tell me once again why it's bad that Primo goes to the GL, when he's also getting playing time in the NBA? As I just wrote - I could see the issue when the picture was, one OR the other... Now he's getting both. Where's the god damned issue in that, if you'd be so kind as to answer?

[Sugus]

Okay, remind me to never argue with you again, Chino. What a uselessly tiresome debate. I'll do this one last time and we can call it a day afterwards, m'kay?


The way Cho phrased their post, this is true. But I don't think anyone is seriously making the argument that Primo could never be assigned to Austin at all or that there aren't good players who've played any time in the d-league.

Uh, are you ignoring the denizens of posts on this very board calling into question the very substance of the GL and whether or not it's useful at all for any player to go there, dismissing the entire league as "lesser players" and therefore not something Primo should even bother with? I can get you quotes if you want... But I got the feeling this'll be long enough as-is.


This is having an argument that I don't think anyone else is having. The argument isn't over whether the d-league can help. It's over whether the reasons to assign Primo to the d-league make sense. In that scope, showing that future NBA players aren't the ones playing lots of d-league games in high-usage roles is totally relevant, because that's what some people have literally suggested Primo needs.

This is where I start to hit my brain on the keeb. How could it not make sense to assign a rookie to a program where he'll get significantly more on-ball usage, a significantly different role to what he'll ALSO GET on the main squad, and the ability to make as many mistakes as he wants without "serious" repercussions? I begin to suspect you're obtuse for the sake of arguing. If it doesn't make sense to you, that's one thing... But to frame "the argument" around this is ludicrous. And tbh, there's no significant GL data on "high usage roles" because there's a league-wide stigma against it, which I'm glad to see the Spurs countering consistently (and reaping the benefits of, but of course you disagree re:development so we won't see eye-to-eye on this, anyhow). The Ignite program, the yearly increase in NBA players assigned to the GL, and the newly-formed Portland (and Denver if I'm not mistaken?) GL teams are all proof that the GL is quickly gaining traction and more serious recognition as a developmental league.


No one's arguing over whether Josh would be ruined if he played five or six games there.

And yet there's forum-wide meltdowns whenever he's assigned there, even though he's been playing both leagues recently, as I thought he would in time. Yawn.


We aren't arguing over what the Spurs think. They can think whatever, and it won't be affected by us. What I'm talking about is what posters think. You know this, hence why you (mis)quote me saying "defending this decision" rather than "making this decision". I don't think posters have rationally worked their way into defending the decision to send Primo back to Austin. Why I said that has been the content of basically all of my subsequent contributions to this thread. What I'm not doing is "[COLOR=#000000]realm of hypothesis trying to pass off as fact" -- that's just a lame attempt to cry for a whistle. I led the post off by saying "I think...", and thusly did not try to pass it off like it's anything other than my interpretation. More importantly, though, even if I hadn't said explicitly that it was my opinion, that doesn't mean that I'm saying it's a fact. That's not how English works. That kind of statement cannot be a fact -- it can only be a belief. So no matter how strongly I stated it, it's not going to be a fact. I know this. I assume you know this. So we don't have to keep wasting time on that type of rebuttal.

Sheesh, all this for a single word off the "misquote"? It wasn't like that, lmao. Yes, you saying there is "no rationale" behind the decision to send Primo to the GL (or whatever you textually said, I'm not quoting you there FYI) is absolutely a baseless, Chino-made fabrication, which runs contrary to the Spurs' developmental program. We can argue until the cows come home and Primo retires from the NBA as to whether it's the best developmental course of action... But to frame it as an irrational decision is weird and dumb, IMO. I don't care enough about it to keep arguing about this though, if you didn't say that then I'm glad you didn't.


I'm going to go ahead and try to work this into the form I think you meant it to be. I said there isn't evidence that high-usage roles in the d-league is a necessary or at least more ideal method to develop players than getting lower-usage minutes in the NBA. (...) I assume you're not trying to frame what I'm saying disingenuously and just got tangled up in your words. However, it's also possible that you have been misunderstanding what I've been saying.

Now you're twisting my words?? You gotta be a better sport about this :lol. Joking, joking.

Why don't we look at it this way: in the NBA, a statistically significant portion of "high-usage players" (aka stars) are top draft picks. Said picks are sent to the worst teams in the league, who often are dearth of talent and have no problem putting the draftee in a pedestal, chuck-fest role if they want to. I was just talking with Kobe about how numerous players, like KAT (or Dlo, I really dislike his game) were hampered by this approach. I tend to agree with Dejounte on this - if there were one, proven, single way to develop prospects, literally every single team would follow it and busts wouldn't be nearly as high as they are. Given that there's no such thing, however, teams develop players as best they see fit - and for the Spurs, that includes a GL stint of varying duration, which usually ends when the prospect rises head-and-shoulders above the competition (take Keldon "graduating" much earlier than Sammich for a clear example of this).

Again, you seem (i)rationally down on the Spurs' developmental abilities, so we'll have to disagree there, but to me, there's no evidence that the Spurs are worse off sending prospects to the GL than the alternative. Their consistent over-production on bad picks is a testament to that. Can the same system adapt and find success for top lottery talent? We'll see - but there's simply no data to show that it won't. At best, that it hasn't happened yet - and there's a first time for everything.


So I've definitely addressed this multiple times. The idea that Primo is getting on-ball minutes in Austin and would not likely see that role in SA is not contested ground. I don't know if you've skipped over most of what I wrote, but in the post that you literally (mis)quote, I talk about that. I really think you should go back and read what I actually write before trying to come in here and pick it apart.

Brother, I don't keep up with what you post nearly enough to know what and where you've adressed what... Lmao. So - you've seen tonight's game, I presume. You've seen Primo not get to run plays, have to defer the ball, spot up for others in the corner, and basically be a non-factor entity (1 FGA and 2pts). In the post that I (mis)quoted, you say literally "Primo shouldn't be going back into the d-league". Why? So he can continue to not get these ball-handling, PnR-running, distributing and playmaking duties like he did tonight? Yes, Pop's rotations are arbitrary to himself, and I'm one in a long list of people who have an issue with some of them, as you are (cough, Forbes). But the fact remains that, as long as Primo's just a rookie surrounded by older, higher-paid, contract-seeking "vets", he won't get nearly the same opportunity that he does in Austin. There is no reason, therefore, why he shouldn't take the opportunity to further practice and work on his game while in Austin... Again, he's 19 FFS. He can perfectly manage both loads, especially if he's gonna "cardio" his way through games like he did tonight.

----------

Phew! That was long. It's funny that you see my position as irrational, when now that Primo's getting minutes in both clubs, the main rationale behind the anti-GL crowd is gone. We can't all agree, I guess. But one thing's for certain: Spurs are gonna stick to their developmental guns, for better and worse. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see our next pick get GL burn, much to ST mayhem. We'll see in a couple years how it turns out...

[Sugus]

Okay, that was pretty much it, folks, I'm done for the night. Carry on with business as usual :lol.

I'll say about tonight's Primo performance: while his offense needs a lot of tuning still, I'm consistently impressed with his defensive positioning/ability/hustle. He had a couple of impressive saves tonight, some nice blocks (I think at least one was credited to him but could swear I counted 2), and except for some missed rotations, he's much "bigger" on the court than I was expecting of him. BUT..... he dies on screens. Every. Single. Time. He's gonna have to learn to navigate those unless the Spurs start running a Rockettes-style, switch-everything defense, because he was dying on one single pick tonight, DeRozan style.

[MannyIsGod]

I think Primo has shown he probably has the best court vision on the team, but honestly these minutes he's playing aren't worth very much imo. He's not playing all that great, he looks overmatched and defers all the damn time. When Tre is back, I'd rather see what Tre has in those minutes than Primo. Primo is years away from being able to really contribute to this team. After watching him play more, I don't believe he can be a really meaningful contributor this year and they have other guards to figure out their futures before then. I just don't see a real plus to playing the guy minutes right now.

[Chinook]

Okay, remind me to never argue with you again, Chino. What a uselessly tiresome debate. I'll do this one last time and we can call it a day afterwards, m'kay?

Dude don't be a sniviling whiner. You were the one who was annoyed that I didn't engage you directly. Now you're trying to call foul. You're always welcome to not engage, but you can do that by not engaging rather than complaining about why you have to engage while continuing to do so.

I did make the mistake of responding to everything before looking at the preview and going nope :lol. Won't get that part of my life back. So yeah, I'm paring it down significantly. I'm going to make the good-faith effort to assume you're cool with talking about specific points about Primo and will understand that I'm pushing everything else into "agree to disagree" because there's no point in arguing about that stuff anymore and will just leave it there rather than trying to trawl it up later.


Lmao. So - you've seen tonight's game, I presume. You've seen Primo not get to run plays, have to defer the ball, spot up for others in the corner, and basically be a non-factor entity (1 FGA and 2pts). In the post that I (mis)quoted, you say literally "Primo shouldn't be going back into the d-league". Why? So he can continue to not get these ball-handling, PnR-running, distributing and playmaking duties like he did tonight? Yes, Pop's rotations are arbitrary to himself, and I'm one in a long list of people who have an issue with some of them, as you are (cough, Forbes). But the fact remains that, as long as Primo's just a rookie surrounded by older, higher-paid, contract-seeking "vets", he won't get nearly the same opportunity that he does in Austin. There is no reason, therefore, why he shouldn't take the opportunity to further practice and work on his game while in Austin... Again, he's 19 FFS. He can perfectly manage both loads, especially if he's gonna "cardio" his way through games like he did tonight.

Why do you think Primo plays PG in Austin? Do you think it's because he has the best PG skills? It's not. It's because the Spurs told the Toros staff to play Josh there. That's it. Whether Primo gets plays called for him or gets ball-handling responsibility is completely up to what the coaches say. So how is it that Primo, in a unit where he was specifically playing PG, doesn't get ball-handling duties? Because the Spurs' coaches didn't say for him to. The idea that Primo had to defer to vets could have worked last year with the old heads around. Who is Josh deferring to now? Forbes? Walker?. Come on, man. Plenty of d-league teams -- including the Toros -- have vet players on there too that are used to getting big roles when the Spurs don't have a send-down dominating the ball. If it were nearly a matter of older guys having too much pride to let Primo play, then he would face those challenges in both leagues.

Any constraint on Primo's role and minutes with SA are fabrications. Pop has the power and opportunity to give Primo solid minutes and his share of scoring chances. Would Primo be able to dribble the air out of the ball as the most talented player on the floor? Probably not, but as I've said, that's not a good thing for him anyway. I think 20 minutes of NBA minutes learning to pick his spots is way more valuable than 30-plus minutes in Austin as the main guy. Players don't develop over one montage. It takes years and years to reach their peak. Primo isn't going to come back from a year of big minutes in Austin and be the first option in SA. As you've mentioned, the team politics would prevent that even if the talent were there. Instead, he's going to have to come in and pick his spots and continue to develop as the Spurs hand him more responsibility... basically what he'd be doing if he just stayed in SA. Would he be getting the 1000 PnRs with some future UPS driver? No, or rather not until he off-season when he meets up with specialized coaches who'll take the six months the player has off and actually develop his game, the same way ever other player develops, regardless of where they play in the regular season.

[KobesAchilles]

1. Why did you jump over everything I wrote about top draft picks and why they skip the GL, only to make a painfully obvious observation? Yes, Primo is our "top pick"... Which doesn't at all mean that he's got a high enough floor to get NBA minutes off the gate, both body-wise and skill-wise. He's pulled some nice moves and shots over the last few games (BTW, notice how he's been getting consistent bench NBA minutes... Shocking!) but also a fair share of blunders and "overmatchedness". Why do you think the "player development" aspect of the Spurs doesn't include Austin in its picture, given it's such a prominent feature of the Spurs' program? :lol. Entirely disagree that, given a bad team, you just drop your players into the fire and let them burn. As you yourself said, KAT and numerous other players have been negatively impacted by that. The Spurs are wiser... Or at least, they try to be, I guess.

2. Pop coaches him up all the time, at practices (where he's with the Spurs team) and in-game too. Literally saw him talking to Primo this very night during the game. I truly wonder what kind of Old Man Sage you think Pop can't impart to Primo if he's off to Austin for a few days/weeks.... But I assure you, it's not as important as you think. Again, Pop is not the be-all end-all of development, and numerous coaches aid in this department (recent example with Lonnie and Manu, just to name one). I don't know where you got this idea that Primo is somehow "missing out" on Pop but it's ludicrous and demonstrably false if you watch the games.

3. So, you want him to play... As he played tonight? Where he had 1 FGA and deferred & defended while he was on the court? Damn, if only my wishes were so easily granted...

Of course he's not gonna go "oh, I remember this one time in the GL..." in the middle of an NBA game :lmao. That's not how practice works. You train and train and repeat exercises until your body does them without thinking - which is exactly why the development he gets in Austin isn't quantifiable. You can't do video sessions of in-game reps, and you can't get in-game reps if you're not on the top of the pecking order. Not to be repetitive, but tonight's game is a PERFECT example of what I said to you in my last comment.... Did Primo get "the man" ball-handling and playmaking duties tonight? Not in the slightest. He got "role-player" reps, which is absolutely fine and an important part of his development, too. But I want him running the PnR to death, over and over and over again, until he gets it right... And again, he's not gonna do that on the Spurs, no matter how blatant the "tank" ever gets. There's simply a pecking order and he's nowhere near the top of it.

Lastly, can you tell me once again why it's bad that Primo goes to the GL, when he's also getting playing time in the NBA? As I just wrote - I could see the issue when the picture was, one OR the other... Now he's getting both. Where's the god damned issue in that, if you'd be so kind as to answer?
Bc there are other hits too when playing a player out the gate. Like Klay Thompson, Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell. There are both bad and good things about playing high draft players. I used Towns as an example of bad player development bc that’s what Minny has. If you think we have good player development then we should just play him

Pop does coach him sure but at the end of the day if Primo is off in Austin the whole time then that’s where I differ with the whole that’s good for his development.

Ideally, Primo would’ve been past this stage by now and gotten more used to playing with his teammates. This is the stage I wanted him at yea but like in the beginning of the year and then he learns his role and gels better with his teammates. Kinda like Vasell last year who started off slow then learned what the duck he should be doing and then improved as the season continued. He’s basically at October Primo instead of January Primo and that’s bc of lack of playing time.

Also he’s not going to get that many reps in Austin of pic n roll where it’s going to be hammered into him. That’s not really how it works and that’s my point. Let’s say he runs pick n roll 300 times in Austin and then the next year he comes up and plays and runs pick n roll 20 times and the next year 40. Those Austin reps aren’t going to mean shit. That’s what I mean when I say we are wasting time with it. If you want to have John learn pick n roll then you have to do it EVERY year not just one

[JeffDuncan]

…. BUT..... he dies on screens. Every. Single. Time. He's gonna have to learn to navigate those …



You’ve made me curious about what you thought you were watching. In point of fact, Primo did the right thing on screens. Every. Single. Time. He usually went under screens to help defend against roll action. With the size advantage the Cavs had, the Spurs needed the inside defense, and Primo did a nice job of it.

What is it you thought was wrong with that?

There was one time where Primo went over a screen, and it may have appeared he got beaten, but Mobley hooked his arm. It was a foul, not called.

But again, what is it you think he should have been doing? Do tell.

Also, did anybody notice that when Primo was in the game he was playing PG?

[exstatic]

You’ve made me curious about what you thought you were watching. In point of fact, Primo did the right thing on screens. Every. Single. Time. He usually went under screens to help defend against roll action. With the size advantage the Cavs had, the Spurs needed the inside defense, and Primo did a nice job of it.

What is it you thought was wrong with that?

There was one time where Primo went over a screen, and it may have appeared he got beaten, but Mobley hooked his arm. It was a foul, not called.

But again, what is it you think he should have been doing? Do tell.

Also, did anybody notice that when Primo was in the game he was playing PG?

Yup. Noticed that, and commented to some friends on a group text. You can see that they eventually want the ball in his hands, I also told the guys that after his time with the big club, the gleague defenders are going to look like high schoolers. I expect that his game, his stats, and his confidence are going to soar when he gets assigned, probably later this weekend.

[emanueldavidginobili]

21-6-5 and 5 steals along with 7 turnovers. Not concerned about his turnovers whatsoever at this point given his inexperience against grown men playing PG. He's light years ahead in terms of vision right now than probably every Spur rookie besides White who was also 5 years older than Primo his rookie year.

[BacktoBasics]

21-6-5 and 5 steals along with 7 turnovers. Not concerned about his turnovers whatsoever at this point given his inexperience against grown men playing PG. He's light years ahead in terms of vision right now than probably every Spur rookie besides White who was also 5 years older than Primo his rookie year.

This is the kinda progress you can make when you put in work on the main and the g. There’s no reason to rush this kid. Let the potential grow at a reasonable pace.

[tim_duncan_fan]

21-6-5 and 5 steals along with 7 turnovers. Not concerned about his turnovers whatsoever at this point given his inexperience against grown men playing PG. He's light years ahead in terms of vision right now than probably every Spur rookie besides White who was also 5 years older than Primo his rookie year.

Yeah we probably shouldn't worry about turnovers when he's playing with barely-pros that he also doesn't know well.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Primo played 33 minutes, 21 pts, 5 assists, 6 rebounds, 6 for 11 shooting, 2 for 4 from 3, 5 steals, 7 turnovers and -13 in a 3 pt victory.

[emanueldavidginobili]

1483979728952377348

[CGD]

1483979728952377348

I can see why people thought he’d go higher in this coming draft has he stayed at Alabama another year

[emanueldavidginobili]

12-1-2 5 fouls 4 turnovers and 3-17 tonight. God damn lol. I’m not sure if the back and forth is messing with him who knows, but damn a rough game. Honestly just rather have him having a consistent role on the spurs and playing with DJ and Derrick and getting easy looks and build his confidence with a fan base that clearly loves him.

[Chinook]

He's not going to be consistent in either league. He's young and raw. That's why worrying about him reaching a certain threshold of consistency is a waste of time. He's already too talented to fit in Austin. He's been that way since he was drafted. But he's going to take years to really develop, and that's not all happening in the d-league no matter how badly some fans want it to work that way.

[XDT76]

He's not going to be consistent in either league. He's young and raw. That's why worrying about him reaching a certain threshold of consistency is a waste of time. He's already too talented to fit in Austin. He's been that way since he was drafted. But he's going to take years to really develop, and that's not all happening in the d-league no matter how badly some fans want it to work that way.

And he is going to be in it no matter how much you are against it, so just drop it.

[exstatic]

Most player development, vitamins as the Spurs call it, happens off the game floor, and there’s more time for it during Austin’s 50 game season than SAs 82 game season. You work on a skill one on one with the coach for a period of time. When he decides you’re ready, you’re allowed to use it in practice. After further evaluation, you’ll be allowed to use it in a game. That’s each skill. Rocker step. Triple threat position. Pick and roll. Crossover.

[Chinook]

And he is going to be in it no matter how much you are against it, so just drop it.

I forgot how we all vote on the other basketball decisions the team makes. If you don't want to talk about it, don't. But I'm not going to stop commenting as it's relevant.

[flox]

i don't understand how anyone could have watched primo's ball handling in the big leagues and think he will get meaningfully better playing in the nba on ball. the dleague is the best place for him to get on ball reps. i can't believe this is even a discussion that people are having.

[MultiTroll]

Most player development, vitamins as the Spurs call it, happens off the game floor, and there’s more time for it during Austin’s 50 game season than SAs 82 game season. You work on a skill one on one with the coach for a period of time. When he decides you’re ready, you’re allowed to use it in practice. After further evaluation, you’ll be allowed to use it in a game. That’s each skill. Rocker step. Triple threat position. Pick and roll. Crossover.
Can you further give us some behind the scenes looks at how Spurs coaches worked with Bryn on defense before bringing him on as a full time starter?

[KingKev]

Can you further give us some behind the scenes looks at how Spurs coaches worked with Bryn on defense before bringing him on as a full time starter?

Ex read the Popovich player development version of the kamasutra. Brynn is very flexible on the defensive end.

Those weren’t vitamins though; rohypnol or roofies as some call it.

[spurraider21]

i don't understand how anyone could have watched primo's ball handling in the big leagues and think he will get meaningfully better playing in the nba on ball. the dleague is the best place for him to get on ball reps. i can't believe this is even a discussion that people are having.
dejounte's ball handling improved plenty by playing in the big leagues

[R. DeMurre]

"It helped a lot. Especially being on the ball," Primo said about his time with Austin. "It helped me feel a lot more comfortable bringing the ball up the floor. Coming off the screen. Making reads."

And Primo agrees with Bozic that Austin is the place to clean things up.

https://www.kens5.com/article/sports/nba/spurs/cutting-down-on-turnovers-is-key-for-spurs-rookie-joshua-primo-nba-san-antonio-austin/273-e2d37a97-9041-42dc-b250-8bda5e09bb4c

[MultiTroll]

"It helped a lot. Especially being on the ball," Primo said about his time with Austin. "It helped me feel a lot more comfortable bringing the ball up the floor. Coming off the screen. Making reads."

And Primo agrees with Bozic that Austin is the place to clean things up.

https://www.kens5.com/article/sports/nba/spurs/cutting-down-on-turnovers-is-key-for-spurs-rookie-joshua-primo-nba-san-antonio-austin/273-e2d37a97-9041-42dc-b250-8bda5e09bb4c

:clap:clap
Great to hear.

And Primo does not appear to be the type who would make an ass kissing comment re the organization just to survive / fit it.

Good news.

[Seventyniner]

"It helped a lot. Especially being on the ball," Primo said about his time with Austin. "It helped me feel a lot more comfortable bringing the ball up the floor. Coming off the screen. Making reads."

And Primo agrees with Bozic that Austin is the place to clean things up.

https://www.kens5.com/article/sports/nba/spurs/cutting-down-on-turnovers-is-key-for-spurs-rookie-joshua-primo-nba-san-antonio-austin/273-e2d37a97-9041-42dc-b250-8bda5e09bb4c


Straight from the horse's mouth.

Now, he might just be parroting the company line here. But I'm going to take his words at face value, and if he thinks being on the ball in the G-League is better for his development than being off the ball in the NBA I will trust his judgment.

[Atl Spur]

It only makes sense…. Other professional sports do it��������

[R. DeMurre]

Straight from the horse's mouth.

Now, he might just be parroting the company line here. But I'm going to take his words at face value, and if he thinks being on the ball in the G-League is better for his development than being off the ball in the NBA I will trust his judgment.


To be honest, I think the question of Primo-- at age 18/19-- bouncing back & forth between the NBA and the G league for one season will not matter very much at all in terms of his long term development. I see all the bickering and posturing here about it as a serious case of much ado about nothing. By next season, he'll be a full time NBA guy, and where he goes from there will depend almost entirely on how hard he works, his mindset, etc... I really can't picture a reasonable scenario where Primo is disappointing at, say, age 24, and it can somehow be blamed on what happened this year.

[exstatic]

dejounte's ball handling improved plenty by playing in the big leagues

Dejounte played a full season in the gleague. Then he played in SA afterwards. No one says Primo will be in Austin for multiple years. He needs this one, though.

[spurraider21]

Dejounte played a full season in the gleague. Then he played in SA afterwards. No one says Primo will be in Austin for multiple years. He needs this one, though.
his handling still sucked when he started playing with the spurs regularly

they improved over time... in the nba

[talkspurs]

Dejounte played a full season in the gleague. Then he played in SA afterwards. No one says Primo will be in Austin for multiple years. He needs this one, though.

He played 15 games in the gleague his only year there (not even 1/3 of a full season). Same year he played 38 in the NBA.

[exstatic]

his handling still sucked when he started playing with the spurs regularly

they improved over time... in the nba

As will Primo’s next year, and beyond.

[PhantomDashCam]

To be honest, I think the question of Primo-- at age 18/19-- bouncing back & forth between the NBA and the G league for one season will not matter very much at all in terms of his long term development. I see all the bickering and posturing here about it as a serious case of much ado about nothing. By next season, he'll be a full time NBA guy, and where he goes from there will depend almost entirely on how hard he works, his mindset, etc... I really can't picture a reasonable scenario where Primo is disappointing at, say, age 24, and it can somehow be blamed on what happened this year.

Well said.

I understand the argument that Primo should play in the Majors considering we are likely a lottery team (still a chance at play-in btw), however it is not in the Spurs or Primo's best interests to do so.

Most had been clamoring for the ball to be taken out of DeRozan, LMA, Patty Mills and Rudy Gay's hands for the last few seasons, me included.
The line of succession, (a Spurs culture mainstay I might add), is now allowing DJ, DW, Lonnie and to lesser extent KJ and Vassell to have opportunities operating on ball which they didn't have before.

My read on Primo is that while undoubtedly talented and probably one of the more well rounded overall players on the roster, there are skill gaps in the basics of the game ie. Simple pass completion, Off-ball screens, lackadaisical effort etc.

There just isn't the practice time in the pros to give that much dedicated time to honing his craft whilst actually getting in-game reps. for implementation.

[KingKev]

Dejounte played a full season in the gleague. Then he played in SA afterwards. No one says Primo will be in Austin for multiple years. He needs this one, though.

Just wrong. Learn to use google. Free information for smart asses.

[spurraider21]

As will Primo’s next year, and beyond.
yes... in the nba. not in the gleague where players can get away with subpar handling and develop poor habits

[Atl Spur]

yes... in the nba. not in the gleague where players can get away with subpar handling and develop poor habits

All depends on your organization…..

[Atl Spur]

Did you see the hops last night?? #springs

[exstatic]

Did you see the hops last night?? #springs

He also did that jab step, crossover step back 3 again. It’s officially a move when you do it multiple times. If he can extend the range by about a foot, it’s going to be lethal.

[MultiTroll]

Dejounte played a full season in the gleague. Then he played in SA afterwards. No one says Primo will be in Austin for multiple years. He needs this one, though.
Regulating begins:


Just wrong. Learn to use google. Free information for smart asses.


He played 15 games in the gleague his only year there (not even 1/3 of a full season). Same year he played 38 in the NBA.
:lol
and:

On May 5, 2017, with Tony Parker ruled out for the rest of the playoffs with a leg injury, the Spurs opted to start Murray at point guard in Game 3 of their second-round series against the Houston Rockets. He scored two points in 15 minutes, as the Spurs took a 2–1 lead in the series with a 103–92 win. He helped the Spurs clinch the series against the Rockets with 11 points, 10 rebounds and 5 assists in a Game 6 win. He became just the fourth rookie in Spurs history to record a point/rebound double-double in a playoff game, joining David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Kawhi Leonard. The Spurs went on to lose to the Golden State Warriors in the Western Conference Finals.

[objective]

His passing over the top of guys is probably best on the team, better than Murray already despite the progress Murray has made

Whether that's feeding the post or getting early offense with his head up on the hit ahead from the backcourt to frontcourt

[Atl Spur]

He also did that jab step, crossover step back 3 again. It’s officially a move when you do it multiple times. If he can extend the range by about a foot, it’s going to be lethal.

Insane move!

[emanueldavidginobili]

1485615865622106118

1485420913734656005

1484930213159088130

I think Primo is going to grow into a beast physically.

[KingKev]

I think Primo is going to grow into a beast physically.

I’ll co-sign that thought. Just turned 19. If those tree trunks for legs he has are any indication of how his upper body fills out he’s probably going to be 6’6 or 6’7 220ish in 2-4 years. Joe Johnson build. If he can master bis handles I’d like to see him predominately as a 2 guard able to bully other guards.

Getting tired of Pop playing guys out of position. Use guys size to their advantage when possible instead of making things harder on them. I understand why Keldon has to play some 4 based on his inability to guard quicker players but Primo and Vassell need to spend most of their time at the 2.

[Atl Spur]

I’ll co-sign that thought. Just turned 19. If those tree trunks for legs he has are any indication of how his upper body fills out he’s probably going to be 6’6 or 6’7 220ish in 2-4 years. Joe Johnson build. If he can master bis handles I’d like to see him predominately as a 2 guard able to bully other guards.

Getting tired of Pop playing guys out of position. Use guys size to their advantage when possible instead of making things harder on them. I understand why Keldon has to play some 4 based on his inability to guard quicker players but Primo and Vassell need to spend most of their time at the 2.

He’s just rounding out his game, making him more versatile

[KingKev]

He’s just rounding out his game, making him more versatile

I understand why he is playing some point in Austin, I just don’t want Pop forcing him to be a 3 which is where he seems to be playing when he gets time in the NBA, which I’m hoping is because of our current roster and not where they hope to use him most going forward.

[John B]

I understand why he is playing some point in Austin, I just don’t want Pop forcing him to be a 3 which is where he seems to be playing when he gets time in the NBA, which I’m hoping is because of our current roster and not where they hope to use him most going forward.

I see him as a combo guard/SF like Demar who can facilitate. While Devin is more of a natural SG with his smooth shooting. I think our frontcourt of DJ/Devin/Primo will be sick. Zach Collins is only 24 and a lottery pick and hoping he can play 4. Then I think Spurs need a Myles Turner who can defend bigs one-on-one at 5. I’m excited what our big cap and assets can bring this trading deadline or latest come Summer.

[BacktoBasics]

I see him as a combo guard/SF like Demar who can facilitate. While Devin is more of a natural SG with his smooth shooting. I think our frontcourt of DJ/Devin/Primo will be sick. Zach Collins is only 24 and a lottery pick and hoping he can play 4. Then I think Spurs need a Myles Turner who can defend bigs one-on-one at 5. I’m excited what our big cap and assets can bring this trading deadline or latest come Summer.
Him working on the point in the G makes a ton of sense. He can clearly score but can he facilitate? That has to be the big question, because he’s not a big so being more than a glorified role player(hi Keldon) will be predicated on his ability to diversify his game on a higher level.

The way they’re developing him makes a ton of sense to me. Despite what the snobs here say.

[Dejounte]

Primo’s game is one of the most aesthetically pleasing I’ve seen from a rook in a while. Everybody tried to copy Harden’s step back jumper. I think Primo can revolutionize the NBA that way if he can keep improving his offensive skillset.

[Das Texan]

Primo isnt really ready for the NBA physically. He will be there in time and once he develops confidence in his game at the NBA level he will be even better.

He looks confident in the G league from the little I've seen. He seemed less confident in the NBA, which is to be expected from a kid who just turned 19. I think so many forget how young he really is. When Parker was his age, he had been a pro for what? 5 years already? Allowing Josh the ability to mature and develop his game as a pro in a less pressure packed environment will do him wonders long term.

[Atl Spur]

He’s putting it together as we speak….

[exstatic]

Primo isnt really ready for the NBA physically. He will be there in time and once he develops confidence in his game at the NBA level he will be even better.

He looks confident in the G league from the little I've seen. He seemed less confident in the NBA, which is to be expected from a kid who just turned 19. I think so many forget how young he really is. When Parker was his age, he had been a pro for what? 5 years already? Allowing Josh the ability to mature and develop his game as a pro in a less pressure packed environment will do him wonders long term.

He actually looked quite confident in the preseason and early season, but when we needed him to play a role during the COVID spike, he looked less sure when he was reined in a bit. He’s looking much better the last few Austin games, even setting a new personal gleague best with 24 points.

[KingKev]

https://ca.nba.com/news/nba-introduces-new-format-2022-rising-stars-event/1fsrr7xsfrezj10t5qgrg4m5bt

Primo unlikely to be invited.

[TDMVPDPOY]

this guy needs nba experience, not fkn buried in gleague with ballhogs

look at the other teams in the nba who have rookies playing or even starting, they are force to play their shit cards in a rebuilding stage or not attracting FA, they know they aint winning shit so they still need to sell seats by putting out a product....something the spurs did last year with the younger players getting more minutes after getting rid of the tosb on the roster...this year looks like shit compared to last season

[The Truth #6]

He looked overwhelmed vs Cleveland last week. He needs to improve and isn’t ready yet.

[KingKev]

this guy needs nba experience, not fkn buried in gleague with ballhogs

look at the other teams in the nba who have rookies playing or even starting, they are force to play their shit cards in a rebuilding stage or not attracting FA, they know they aint winning shit so they still need to sell seats by putting out a product....something the spurs did last year with the younger players getting more minutes after getting rid of the tosb on the roster...this year looks like shit compared to last season

What are you talking about? Last year was a healthy dose of DDR/LMA/Mills/Gay.

[KingKev]

Primo recalled. Hopefully White traded. :tongue

[exstatic]

Primo recalled. Hopefully White traded. :tongue

Primo recalled because we’re back home, he’s an hour away, and Austin doesn’t play until Friday.

[KingKev]

Primo recalled because we’re back home, he’s an hour away, and Austin doesn’t play until Friday.

I’m well aware. Call ups don’t usually mean players have changed hands like most on this board purport.

[KingKev]

I’m well aware. Call ups don’t usually mean players have changed hands like most on this board purport.

Primo back to Austin. Joshua yo-yo.

[emanueldavidginobili]

1486907587161468928

1486878621717471237
sick pass. He's also been recalled for tonights game.

[exstatic]

He’s REALLY cut down on his turnovers. He had a string of Austin games where he had 6,6,7 in a three game stretch.

[CGD]

Has he grown to 6’10” yet?

[Mr. Body]

1486907587161468928

1486878621717471237
sick pass. He's also been recalled for tonights game.

Wow, that's a sweet little pass there.

[exstatic]

That pass wasn’t an isolated incident. His court vision is next level, and unlike some of our guys, he understands that he needs to attack the hoop to open up passing lanes. This was a perfect example, as his determined drive drew in the help defender.

[Mr. Body]

That pass wasn’t an isolated incident. His court vision is next level, and unlike some of our guys, he understands that he needs to attack the hoop to open up passing lanes. This was a perfect example, as his determined drive drew in the help defender.

Definitely, it seems like he had the pass in mind as he did the stutter drive. Wieskamp's man was deep on the baseline (for some reason). But it's also the pass itself. I can't totally see, but it's more like a wrist flick, almost like a pocket pass that isn't just dumping a few feet, but makes it on a beeline all the way out to the perimeter.

[PhantomDashCam]

Scouting report from 2020 after the BWB camp. Seems like an injury, in this case a fractured finger, kept Primo somewhat enigmatic and hidden amongst many talent evaluators.

https://www.espn.com.au/nba/story/_/id/28738286/nba-draft-stock-watch-standouts-basketball-borders


…With a 6-foot-5 frame and long arms, Primo looked comfortable operating on and off the ball at the camp. Primo is extremely smooth and fluid while changing speeds, splitting ball screens and finishing with touch and creativity around the rim using either hand. He did a great job of getting teammates involved out of pick-and-roll, showing the ability to deliver accurate passes after drives or off a live dribble. He's a good shooter with his feet set, but particularly off the dribble.

Primo needs to improve on the defensive end, as his intensity wavers and he has some trouble getting over screens. His lack of experience was reflected in some risky shot selection and decision-making...

[Mr. Body]

Scouting report from 2020 after the BWB camp. Seems like an injury, in this case a fractured finger, kept Primo somewhat enigmatic and hidden amongst many talent evaluators.

https://www.espn.com.au/nba/story/_/id/28738286/nba-draft-stock-watch-standouts-basketball-borders

I think, too, a lot of teams were really slow on him. There was another player that was rising fast pretty late, I think Zaire Williams? The guy drafted by Memphis. He was appearing on mock drafts only in the last week, which I think reflects what they were hearing from teams. The press finding Williams credible late suggests a few teams were only cementing on him pretty late. In my mind, Primo would have started appearing on boards a week or so later, had the draft been at those times, when the press picked up on interest.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Murray and White out tomorrow. Time for a heavy dose of Primo

[TDomination]

Murray and White out tomorrow. Time for a heavy dose of Primo
Why are they out?

[exstatic]

Why are they out?

White - rest
Murray - bruised knee, probably rest, but SA doesn’t want to be fined.
Jak - back pain

[SAGirl]

I think, too, a lot of teams were really slow on him. There was another player that was rising fast pretty late, I think Zaire Williams? The guy drafted by Memphis. He was appearing on mock drafts only in the last week, which I think reflects what they were hearing from teams. The press finding Williams credible late suggests a few teams were only cementing on him pretty late. In my mind, Primo would have started appearing on boards a week or so later, had the draft been at those times, when the press picked up on interest.
Honestly I don’t know if this is true obviously… it might be, but for my money I thought the Grizzlies wanted someone else, either Giddey or Wagner… they tried hard to trade up further and might have even dangled Dillon Brooks and pick swap to CLE for Mobley… alas they weren’t able to trade up any further and settled on the next best guy in their list which was Williams…

Essentially I am saying Williams wasn’t who the Grizzlies were really after. I was actually disappointed they traded up for him bc they might have got him at 17 anyways, but they could have expected he wasn’t going to be there at 17 so the Valanciunas trade was worth it to them even in that case, but we can never know of course.

For the Spurs, they tried to trade down but they must have had information that another team would have draft him in the middle and he wouldn’t be around at later slots. They ended up not chancing it bc it was risky and they liked Primo enough to secure him at 11.

[Mr. Body]

I believe it's widely confirmed that Primo was going to be nabbed shortly after the Spurs, I forget who, maybe OKC. Williams was appearing on some mocks. That doesn't mean only the Grizzlies wanted him, and he might not have their primary target. The mocks were just registering interest from some teams higher than he'd been projected for a while. He was moving up.

[BacktoBasics]

Primo would’ve had big minutes on okc. Good or bad depending on where you stand. Personally I like the pace of his development here. I believe this may very well be the player who shuts a lot people up about how the team goes about developing and vetting legitimate long term investments.

Vassell as well.

[Atl Spur]

Primo would’ve had big minutes on okc. Good or bad depending on where you stand. Personally I like the pace of his development here. I believe this may very well be the player who shuts a lot people up about how the team goes about developing and vetting legitimate long term investments.

Vassell as well.

This

[John B]

He actually looked quite confident in the preseason and early season, but when we needed him to play a role during the COVID spike, he looked less sure when he was reined in a bit. He’s looking much better the last few Austin games, even setting a new personal gleague best with 24 points.

That could be overthinking (or overcoaching whatever it is). But it’s necessary to learn when to facilitate or when to take over games. I’m just hoping that he’s going to shy away like Lonnie does (did). But also with Pop, a player might have to push his style of play as long as he can back it up, like Manu did. There’s Manu who never really gave up his erratic plays, and then there’s TP who allowed Pop to mold him into the player he became, who absorbed the barkings as well as humanly possible, and there’s Demar who allowed Pop to coach him to become a better all-around player. I think Primo will be like Demar with the outside shots.

[Mnky]

That could be overthinking (or overcoaching whatever it is). But it’s necessary to learn when to facilitate or when to take over games. I’m just hoping that he’s going to shy away like Lonnie does (did). But also with Pop, a player might have to push his style of play as long as he can back it up, like Manu did. There’s Manu who never really gave up his erratic plays, and then there’s TP who allowed Pop to mold him into the player he became, who absorbed the barkings as well as humanly possible, and there’s Demar who allowed Pop to coach him to become a better all-around player. I think Primo will be like Demar with the outside shots.

Definitely go with over thinking. He's just a kid. People tend to forget how little coaching he has actually had.

I have the same image of him being a Demar type player with a 3 pt shot. Reminiscent of Harden with his step backs and casual drives. Will be a fun prospect to watch grow.

[XDT76]

White - rest
Murray - bruised knee, probably rest, but SA doesn’t want to be fined.
Jak - back pain

Maybe PATFO is giving those BS fan boys a wet dream. 3 of them for BS, salary match. lol

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

Primo would’ve had big minutes on okc. Good or bad depending on where you stand. Personally I like the pace of his development here. I believe this may very well be the player who shuts a lot people up about how the team goes about developing and vetting legitimate long term investments.

Vassell as well.

it doesn’t matter how many players come through the system and get better, you’re always going to have folks that will talk half truths and BS.

Spurs fans have seen a lot of players over the years come through and get better but it’s still folks that will throw some caveat in to try and make a point. Lmao

[emanueldavidginobili]

Originally drafted at 12 and projected late 1st/early second in pre draft mock drafts.

1487456822881447937

10. Memphis Grizzlies

Joshua Primo

(Originally drafted No. 12 by the San Antonio Spurs)


The Grizzlies really reached for Ziaire Williams at No. 10. Williams clearly had long-term upside, but really struggled during his freshman season at Stanford. He’s gotten significant minutes in Memphis this season, and he’s had a few games where he’s popped. But for the most part, he’s struggled, and most stats-based analytics tools rank him as the second-worst rookie right now, ahead of only Green.

Williams is young and no one is ready to write him off. But if the Grizzlies were going to reach for a young player with limited upside, did they get the right guy?

Primo was also a very controversial selection in the lottery, and he’s gotten significantly fewer minutes than Williams to show his stuff. But the brief glimpses we’ve seen of him in the G League and for San Antonio give me hope that the Spurs knew what they were doing.

Primo was the youngest player in the draft (and is younger than some of the top prospects in the 2022 NBA Draft). He has shown off a sweet jumper and some playmaking ability (including getting playing time at the point) and has been a surprising plus on the defensive end.

He’s very inconsistent and young, but if I were drafting for upside, I think we’ve seen enough to call Primo a tantalizing top-10 pick in the re-draft.

[Mr. Body]

Originally drafted at 12 and projected late 1st/early second in pre draft mock drafts.

1487456822881447937

10. Memphis Grizzlies

Joshua Primo

(Originally drafted No. 12 by the San Antonio Spurs)


The Grizzlies really reached for Ziaire Williams at No. 10. Williams clearly had long-term upside, but really struggled during his freshman season at Stanford. He’s gotten significant minutes in Memphis this season, and he’s had a few games where he’s popped. But for the most part, he’s struggled, and most stats-based analytics tools rank him as the second-worst rookie right now, ahead of only Green.

Williams is young and no one is ready to write him off. But if the Grizzlies were going to reach for a young player with limited upside, did they get the right guy?

Primo was also a very controversial selection in the lottery, and he’s gotten significantly fewer minutes than Williams to show his stuff. But the brief glimpses we’ve seen of him in the G League and for San Antonio give me hope that the Spurs knew what they were doing.

Primo was the youngest player in the draft (and is younger than some of the top prospects in the 2022 NBA Draft). He has shown off a sweet jumper and some playmaking ability (including getting playing time at the point) and has been a surprising plus on the defensive end.

He’s very inconsistent and young, but if I were drafting for upside, I think we’ve seen enough to call Primo a tantalizing top-10 pick in the re-draft.




At least those listed in the tweet, Ford was right. Mobley looks great, Giddey was a very nice pick, and Primo shows upside. Although Williams was rising, I didn't really see why.

[Mr. Body]

I'm curious about OKC's development. They have a GM who can find diamonds in the rough, but do they actually develop players beyond this? SGA is excellent, of course, and Giddey has also come in with a lot of skill. But Pokusevski already looks like he's getting worse. True, he need a huge amount of skill development, but sticking him out there last year jacking horrific three after horrific three wasn't exactly helping.

[exstatic]

I'm curious about OKC's development. They have a GM who can find diamonds in the rough, but do they actually develop players beyond this? SGA is excellent, of course, and Giddey has also come in with a lot of skill. But Pokusevski already looks like he's getting worse. True, he need a huge amount of skill development, but sticking him out there last year jacking horrific three after horrific three wasn't exactly helping.

SGA was drafted by the Clippers, and showed enough production in all categories that he was a deal breaker demand by OKC in the PG trade. OKC had little or nothing to do with the player he is now.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

Primo has been really solid on defense In both the G League and when getting real NBA minutes. That has been a very nice surprise to say the least.

I think if given more NBA minutes that he could give better production right now than what Lonnie (sadly) has given this season. I feel Joshua’s biggest issue when he was given more run when everyone was out due to health and safety was his aggression.

barring injuries I’m very excited to see what Joshua can do with all summer and off-season to sharpen his skills, next season

[Mr. Body]

SGA was drafted by the Clippers, and showed enough production in all categories that he was a deal breaker demand by OKC in the PG trade. OKC had little or nothing to do with the player he is now.

That's right, thanks. My sense is OKC's player development is kind of shitty.

[ace3g]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUQsmO3siww

[Atl Spur]

The kid just has it…. He has the traits and feel you don’t teach.

[niraj2000]

Primo and McD were the only players able to score once the Sun's defense tightened. It was shame, Primo did not get possession after he scored at 3:41 mark. The guy wants to take big shots.

[BatManu20]

Primo’s gonna be a damn good player in a few years. He’s already showing signs. Great pick by PATFA tbh.

[John B]

Primo has been really solid on defense In both the G League and when getting real NBA minutes. That has been a very nice surprise to say the least.

I think if given more NBA minutes that he could give better production right now than what Lonnie (sadly) has given this season. I feel Joshua’s biggest issue when he was given more run when everyone was out due to health and safety was his aggression.

barring injuries I’m very excited to see what Joshua can do with all summer and off-season to sharpen his skills, next season

I was pleasantly surprised by his burst of speed on that 2nd play. He wasn’t this fast before, and his handles have improved so much as a ballhandler. I really think they should start playing him alongside Murray at 2 if ever they decided to move White and start creating that chemistry with Murray in the 2nd half of the season. What Spurs would miss from White, I think Primo can replace. He even tried to take the charge the other night.

[John B]

Primo and McD were the only players able to score once the Sun's defense tightened. It was shame, Primo did not get possession after he scored at 3:41 mark. The guy wants to take big shots.

That 3pt shot in a close game shows the cold blood on this kid’s veins, alpha.

[Chomag]

We got a brand new low mile Ferrari that Pop just wants to keep in the garage :lol

[Mr. Body]

I was pleasantly surprised by his burst of speed on that 2nd play. He wasn’t this fast before, and his handles have improved so much as a ballhandler. I really think they should start playing him alongside Murray at 2 if ever they decided to move White and start creating that chemistry with Murray in the 2nd half of the season. What Spurs would miss from White, I think Primo can replace. He even tried to take the charge the other night.

Primo's ball skills were really poor this summer; if he got double teamed, it was pretty much a strip, he couldn't handle it. That he's improved this quickly is fantastic.

[emanueldavidginobili]

That 3pt shot in a close game shows the cold blood on this kid’s veins, alpha.
Yup did it against the Nets on the road too as well. Pretty impressive stuff.
1480257119484006405

[spurraider21]

Primo is coming for White's job, tbh. A secondary ballhandler who can handle PG duties when needed, has potential to be a good defender, but unlike White, doesn't play scared and looks like a knockdown shooter, something this team really needs

we also need Vassell to start becoming more accurate from deep

[KingKev]

Primo is coming for White's job, tbh. A secondary ballhandler who can handle PG duties when needed, has potential to be a good defender, but unlike White, doesn't play scared and looks like a knockdown shooter, something this team really needs

we also need Vassell to start becoming more accurate from deep

I really hope we can find a true wing for the 3 so Primo/Vassell can play the majority of their minutes at the 2. Vassell was closer to 40% from 3 earlier this year before this slump.

I am absolutely ready to turn White into something if the opportunity arises.

[DAF86]

I've said multiple times and I'm saying it again: in terms of skillsets, Primo and Vassell should be starting instead of White and Johnson.

-Primo is a better shooter than White, which is exactly what Murray needs along him. Also, I think White would benefit from getting to be the primary ball-handler coming off the bench, ala Manu.

-And Vassell not only provides more shooting than Johnson, he also provides better defense.

We are still lacking that dynamic, long 4 to round up the SL. But Murray at the 1, Primo at the 2, Vassel at the 3, and Poeltl at the 5, should be set for next season.

A bench lineup of White, Walker, Johnson, McDermott, Landele looks very balanced too.

[KingKev]

I've said multiple times and I'm saying it again: in terms of skillsets, Primo and Vassell should be starting instead of White and Johnson.

-Primo is a better shooter than White, which is exactly what Murray needs along him. Also, I think White would benefit from getting to be the primary ball-handler coming off the bench, ala Manu.

-And Vassell not only provides more shooting than Johnson, he also provides better defense.

We are still lacking that dynamic, long 4 to round up the SL. But Murray at the 1, Primo at the 2, Vassel at the 3, and Poeltl at the 5, should be set for next season.

A bench lineup of White, Walker, Johnson, McDermott, Landele looks very balanced too.

Unless that 4 in the starting lineup is All-NBA that is still a 30 win team. Also Zollins is likely the backup big next year.

[John B]

Originally drafted at 12 and projected late 1st/early second in pre draft mock drafts.

1487456822881447937

10. Memphis Grizzlies

Joshua Primo

(Originally drafted No. 12 by the San Antonio Spurs)


The Grizzlies really reached for Ziaire Williams at No. 10. Williams clearly had long-term upside, but really struggled during his freshman season at Stanford. He’s gotten significant minutes in Memphis this season, and he’s had a few games where he’s popped. But for the most part, he’s struggled, and most stats-based analytics tools rank him as the second-worst rookie right now, ahead of only Green.

Williams is young and no one is ready to write him off. But if the Grizzlies were going to reach for a young player with limited upside, did they get the right guy?

Primo was also a very controversial selection in the lottery, and he’s gotten significantly fewer minutes than Williams to show his stuff. But the brief glimpses we’ve seen of him in the G League and for San Antonio give me hope that the Spurs knew what they were doing.

Primo was the youngest player in the draft (and is younger than some of the top prospects in the 2022 NBA Draft). He has shown off a sweet jumper and some playmaking ability (including getting playing time at the point) and has been a surprising plus on the defensive end.

He’s very inconsistent and young, but if I were drafting for upside, I think we’ve seen enough to call Primo a tantalizing top-10 pick in the re-draft.




While Bleacher Report doesn’t even have Primo at top 14. And instead have Chris Duarte as Spurs’ pick at 12.

Do it again in 5 years and I wouldn’t doubt Primo will be in top 5. I’m really hoping Spurs are clearing minutes for him and even start soon.

[exstatic]

While Bleacher Report doesn’t even have Primo at top 14. And instead have Chris Duarte as Spurs’ pick at 12.

Do it again in 5 years and I wouldn’t doubt Primo will be in top 5. I’m really hoping Spurs are clearing minutes for him and even start soon.

It’s ridiculous to do a redraft this early. Try two years later, and you might have a better idea.

[The Truth #6]

Unless that 4 in the starting lineup is All-NBA that is still a 30 win team. Also Zollins is likely the backup big next year.

But high 30s!!

[Atl Spur]

A healthy Zach Collins can be your starting 4; he is very agile when healthy.

[LeBowen]

B/R is as bad as ESPN, idk why people waste time reading their nonsense.

As exstatic said, it takes at least a couple of years. Everyone develops at their own pace.
DJ's jumpshot was pretty much non-existant in his first two seasons, look at him now.

Primo is the youngest player in the league and younger than most prospects in the upcoming draft.
The real question is what would his draft position be in 2022 draft. I don't think we'd be able to get him without a top3 pick.

[Spurs Homer]

Primo and McD were the only players able to score once the Sun's defense tightened. It was shame, Primo did not get possession after he scored at 3:41 mark. The guy wants to take big shots.

because primo running point with mcbuckets on the floor was working - spurs up by 6-10 pts

but pop shit the bed- inserted tre garbage jones

and continued the tank

[The Truth #6]

B/R is as bad as ESPN, idk why people waste time reading their nonsense.

As exstatic said, it takes at least a couple of years. Everyone develops at their own pace.
DJ's jumpshot was pretty much non-existant in his first two seasons, look at him now.

Primo is the youngest player in the league and younger than most prospects in the upcoming draft.
The real question is what would his draft position be in 2022 draft. I don't think we'd be able to get him without a top3 pick.

Would he be above Chet, Banchero, and Jaden Ivey? I’m thinking 5-10, IF he had a solid year. It’s possible because Herb Jones has shown to be solid and there would have been a talent hole to fill at Alabama. But I don’t see top 5. 5-10, more likely.

[Mr. Body]

While Bleacher Report doesn’t even have Primo at top 14. And instead have Chris Duarte as Spurs’ pick at 12.

Do it again in 5 years and I wouldn’t doubt Primo will be in top 5. I’m really hoping Spurs are clearing minutes for him and even start soon.

Duarte is looking pretty good. He's also five years older than Primo. Five. Years.

[KingKev]

https://ca.nba.com/news/nba-introduces-new-format-2022-rising-stars-event/1fsrr7xsfrezj10t5qgrg4m5bt

Primo unlikely to be invited.

He might make the g-league AS game? Do they have one? He’d still be a long-shot.

[Atl Spur]

Primo’s handle has gotten better almost overnight…. This kid will start next year.

[TDomination]

Primo’s handle has gotten better almost overnight…. This kid will start next year.
he better start next year!

[RC_Drunkford]

Primo’s handle has gotten better almost overnight…. This kid will start next year.

he absolutely won't. He'll come off the bench and compete for minutes with Walker/Tre Jones

[MultiTroll]

he better start next year!


he absolutely won't. He'll come off the bench and compete for minutes with Walker/Tre Jones
Anyone think they know the mind of Grandpa a year from now. :lol

[Atl Spur]

he absolutely won't. He'll come off the bench and compete for minutes with Walker/Tre Jones

We shall see����

[Dejounte]

CYwz-HcvEF0
Probably just the angle, but Primo looks huge next to DJ

[GAustex]

Primo kind of thick
Hope he do not get fat

[offset formation]

A healthy Zach Collins can be your starting 4; he is very agile when healthy.

He has very little lateral speed.

[BackHome]

Zach I don’t think will ever be a starter he will be a good bench player I think you can use him in certain matchups small ball Center and PF against less mobile players. He will get killed playing against the big boys I think his legs are skinnier then Murray’s.

[Atl Spur]

Zach I don’t think will ever be a starter he will be a good bench player I think you can use him in certain matchups small ball Center and PF against less mobile players. He will get killed playing against the big boys I think his legs are skinnier then Murray’s.

Barring injury, Zach is tall enough, fast enough, and skilled enough to play power forward! He can start…. give it a little time

[KingKev]

Barring injury, Zach is tall enough, fast enough, and skilled enough to play power forward! He can start…. give it a little time

I’m on the Zollins bandwagon but he is unlikely to play more than spot minutes at the 4. Tough to predict whether he will be a starting quality 5 till see him back in the NBA.

[CGD]

Barring injury, Zach is tall enough, fast enough, and skilled enough to play power forward! He can start…. give it a little time

I love your enthusiasm, and I also liked this signing. But dude will play the 5 and thats OK.

[KingKev]

Rough night for J Smooth

[MultiTroll]

Hope this will end up being the worst game of his career.

[Atl Spur]

Hope this will end up being the worst game of his career.

All the great ones ( not sure he’s just that yet ) have games like this. Hopefully he responds well and works even harder moving forward!

[KingKev]

All the great ones ( not sure he’s just that yet ) have games like this. Hopefully he responds well and works even harder moving forward!

Exactly. We just need to team him up with another future HoF guy like a healthy Zach Collins. Just watch.

[Atl Spur]

Exactly. We just need to team him up with another future HoF guy like a healthy Zach Collins. Just watch.

There you go�������� You’re coming around big guy! Kobe had that one Utah series early on to shape him…..

[KingKev]

There you go�������� You’re coming around big guy! Kobe had that one Utah series early on to shape him…..

When he raped that hoe? But regardless this team is low key stacked.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

He's a confident dude, he'll learn. It's better to shoot 1-13 than start 1-5 and stop shooting at all because of fear.

[KingKev]

He's a confident dude, he'll learn. It's better to shoot 1-13 than start 1-5 and stop shooting at all because of fear.

White has been shooting 1-5 from deep nightly for a half a season and suddenly found his stroke so Primo should be fine. With that being said he is still along the lines of Vassell, KJ, White in terms of recent draft picks; not at all the franchise player this board purports.

[Atl Spur]

White has been shooting 1-5 from deep, nightly for a half a season and suddenly found his stroke so Primo should he fine. He is still along the lines of Vassell, KJ, White in terms of recent draft picks. Not at all the franchise player this board purposes.

Primo will be fine����

[Barfunk]

I think he's finished at this point. Too old, tbh.

[exstatic]

White has been shooting 1-5 from deep nightly for a half a season and suddenly found his stroke so Primo should be fine. With that being said he is still along the lines of Vassell, KJ, White in terms of recent draft picks; not at all the franchise player this board purports.

Vassell is one of my favorites, and I will flat out say that Primos court vision and passing shits all over Devins.

[spurs1990]

Whatever magic pixie dust they did with that Leonard guy drafted out of San Diego 10 yrs ago you would think they could replicate it with Vassell or Primo

[Atl Spur]

Whatever magic pixie dust they did with that Leonard guy drafted out of San Diego 10 yrs ago you would think they could replicate it with Vassell or Primo

Hopefully����

[KingKev]

Whatever magic pixie dust they did with that Leonard guy drafted out of San Diego 10 yrs ago you would think they could replicate it with Vassell or Primo

Doesn’t work this way. Kawhi came into a great environment with 3 future hall of famers which enabled him to hone his skillset, piece by piece, starting with defense. Right time, right place coupled with a freakish work ethic and desire to be great. Tough to replicate that.

[Atl Spur]

There is no metric to gauge heart / desire so I won’t pretend to know Primos or Vassells! Hopefully they want to be great…..

[John B]

Doesn’t work this way. Kawhi came into a great environment with 3 future hall of famers which enabled him to hone his skillset, piece by piece, starting with defense. Right time, right place coupled with a freakish work ethic and desire to be great. Tough to replicate that.

Agreed. And in that winning environment where everybody elevates their games because of high expectations, in contrast to getting blown by GLeaguers in your own gym.

[emanueldavidginobili]

1491130641684983808

[XDT76]

Agreed. And in that winning environment where everybody elevates their games because of high expectations, in contrast to getting blown by GLeaguers in your own gym.

It is also the reason why I don't support a team purposely tank, the players will develop a defeatist mentality

[Kurgan]

Whatever magic pixie dust they did with that Leonard guy drafted out of San Diego 10 yrs ago you would think they could replicate it with Vassell or Primo

Kawhi had some insane physical traits that you can't teach. The wingspan and hand size combined with his already great defensive instincts made him one of the league's best defenders in only his rookie season. He already had a rock solid foundation to build upon.

Someone like Keldon, for example, will never have Kawhi's impact because the physical traits and the defensive IQ just aren't there.

[daslicer]

Kawhi had some insane physical traits that you can't teach. The wingspan and hand size combined with his already great defensive instincts made him one of the league's best defenders in only his rookie season. He already had a rock solid foundation to build upon.

Someone like Keldon, for example, will never have Kawhi's impact because the physical traits and the defensive IQ just aren't there.

Agreed that's why I think it's wrong to compare a guy like Vassell or Keldon to Kawhi. Vassell for example is more comparable to Alan Houston due to his style of play and body type. No matter how hard Vassell works he can't be Kawhi because his body type won't allow him to replicate Kawhi's game.

[KingKev]

He needs to stay in Austin for another year.

[CGD]

Agreed that's why I think it's wrong to compare a guy like Vassell or Keldon to Kawhi. Vassell for example is more comparable to Alan Houston due to his style of play and body type. No matter how hard Vassell works he can't be Kawhi because his body type won't allow him to replicate Kawhi's game.

I like the Alan Houston comp. Vassell even has some of that move to create space for himself that Alan Houston mastered.

[Trill Clinton]

Pop was right with taking his time with Primo

[Dverde]

Josh Richardson will get some of his minutes soon. He should still be playing every game just less minutes.

[emanueldavidginobili]

He just needs to be assertive and get comfortable in his role and make the most out of it. Not sure how Richardson will play into the rotation but I think Primo is here to stay some where in the rotation for the remainder of the season. Also not worried about his 3 point shot whatsoever it will come.

[daslicer]

I like the Alan Houston comp. Vassell even has some of that move to create space for himself that Alan Houston mastered.

Keep in mind that Alan Houston didn't establish himself as a good player until his third year in the league and Alan was also a 4-year college player. If Devin keeps working hard, I think we will see him break out in year 4 as a good player.

[Atl Spur]

Primo is a rookie playing against seasoned grown men in case some have forgotten….. let that man live. He’s a heady player that is learning on the job.

[Atl Spur]

Pop was right with taking his time with Primo

You can’t talk sensible on this site! Don’t you know at least 5 to 6 dudes on here forgot more basketball than Pop knows.

[vy65]

This dude is hella overrated

[Ice009]

Barring injury, Zach is tall enough, fast enough, and skilled enough to play power forward! He can start…. give it a little time

Yeah, ahh, sorry. I am not down with that. We had a guy called Tim Duncan starting. I can't accept Collins as a starter in the PF slot. Not if you want to win and be a playoff team. If you're expecting Collins to start, that Spurs team ain't going anywhere IMO. He's a bench player at best on a decent team.

[Ice009]

Doesn’t work this way. Kawhi came into a great environment with 3 future hall of famers which enabled him to hone his skillset, piece by piece, starting with defense. Right time, right place coupled with a freakish work ethic and desire to be great. Tough to replicate that.

This is something I think about from time to time. How/why Kawhi became so great compared to the player he was when he joined the Spurs. I feel that he had an amazing work ethic and desire to be great, but I also wonder if the situation he came into allowed him to get there.

I also wonder how big of a part the Spurs coaching and development had in him becoming that great. When he was still playing for the Spurs, I thought it was mostly him and the work he put in that got him to MVP level, but I now feel maybe he never would have been as good as he did without the Spurs development. I didn't 100% feel that way when he was on the Spurs. That is why I am still upset that he left the way he did. It seems to me he viewed it the opposite way and would have become that good with or without the Spurs, so that is why I think it was so easy for him to leave the Spurs. It's like he didn't feel/think the Spurs played that big of a role and he wasn't appreciative towards them helping to make him the player he had become. Maybe his ego just got too big by that time, I don't know. I still don't like thinking about it.

I also wonder if the lockout and Chip's tips on tweaking his shots worked better with Chip only having a few days to show him how to tweak his shot, then leaving Kawhi for months on his own during the lockout to concentrate on what Chip taught him. Maybe if there was no lockout and he was constantly working with Chip, he may not have become as good of a shooter.

It's a very fine line, and maybe all these little things and circumstances played a huge part in turning him into an MVP level player. As mentioned, now that he's gone, it feels like he wasn't appreciative of all the time and effort the Spurs put into helping him develop (otherwise, I don't think he would have left the way he did IMO), and possibly he thinks it was mostly himself that made the improvements and they didn't have much to do with it. I really do wonder what his mindset is in regard to all that. I don't know, maybe he thinks the Spurs held him back because of their system.

Edit : Forgot to mention you point. I agree, it's not going to be anywhere near as easy to develop Primo or Vassell like the Spurs were able to with Kawhi (at worst, 50% was Kawhi himself and his work ethic and his absolute desire to be one of the best players on the planet that pushed him to that level). He also got to play in bigtime games from the very start of his career to see what it's all about, and also in huge playoff games without the pressure of being the man as he had Tim, Tony, Manu to take that pressure off of him. Completely different circumstances these current guys are in.

[Atl Spur]

I think Primo will be the face of the franchise sooner than later; the dude is a smart & competitive player! Give him a year or so……

[Atl Spur]

Environment be it personal or professional is vital to one’s growth. There are a ton of careers that been ruined by crappy organizations / development.

[Atl Spur]

Environment be it personal or professional is vital to one’s growth. There are a ton of careers that been ruined by crappy organizations / development.

[KingKev]

Coo coo

[Atl Spur]

Coo coo

:). This guy here

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

This is something I think about from time to time. How/why Kawhi became so great compared to the player he was when he joined the Spurs. I feel that he had an amazing work ethic and desire to be great, but I also wonder if the situation he came into allowed him to get there.

I also wonder how big of a part the Spurs coaching and development had in him becoming that great. When he was still playing for the Spurs, I thought it was mostly him and the work he put in that got him to MVP level, but I now feel maybe he never would have been as good as he did without the Spurs development. I didn't 100% feel that way when he was on the Spurs. That is why I am still upset that he left the way he did. It seems to me he viewed it the opposite way and would have become that good with or without the Spurs, so that is why I think it was so easy for him to leave the Spurs. It's like he didn't feel/think the Spurs played that big of a role and he wasn't appreciative towards them helping to make him the player he had become. Maybe his ego just got too big by that time, I don't know. I still don't like thinking about it.

I also wonder if the lockout and Chip's tips on tweaking his shots worked better with Chip only having a few days to show him how to tweak his shot, then leaving Kawhi for months on his own during the lockout to concentrate on what Chip taught him. Maybe if there was no lockout and he was constantly working with Chip, he may not have become as good of a shooter.

It's a very fine line, and maybe all these little things and circumstances played a huge part in turning him into an MVP level player. As mentioned, now that he's gone, it feels like he wasn't appreciative of all the time and effort the Spurs put into helping him develop (otherwise, I don't think he would have left the way he did IMO), and possibly he thinks it was mostly himself that made the improvements and they didn't have much to do with it. I really do wonder what his mindset is in regard to all that. I don't know, maybe he thinks the Spurs held him back because of their system.

Edit : Forgot to mention you point. I agree, it's not going to be anywhere near as easy to develop Primo or Vassell like the Spurs were able to with Kawhi (at worst, 50% was Kawhi himself and his work ethic and his absolute desire to be one of the best players on the planet that pushed him to that level). He also got to play in bigtime games from the very start of his career to see what it's all about, and also in huge playoff games without the pressure of being the man as he had Tim, Tony, Manu to take that pressure off of him. Completely different circumstances these current guys are in.


LMAO why type all of that?

the majority of the credit goes to the player for getting better. He was patient and studious enough to take the tips and teaching in stride to get better. It doesn’t matter how great a teacher is if the student doesn’t want to put in the work or understand how to apply the lessons taught to them.

the SPURS definitely deserve some credit with helping Kawhi become a great player because they recognized he was continuously improving but they didn’t bombard him with too many responsibilities too quickly. They assigned him things they thought would enhance his game and put him in position to maximize his talents.

dude left because he wanted to go back home to LA. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe some stuff happened that might have turned him off quicker but it is obvious how he left Toronto that he wanted to go back home and not too much was stopping that

[emanueldavidginobili]

Austin plays tonight, no Primo. I will be surprised if he plays another game for them.

[exstatic]

Austin plays tonight, no Primo. I will be surprised if he plays another game for them.

It’s still AllStar break, and until the NBA resumes, no 15man roster players may play, not even in the gleague.

[emanueldavidginobili]

It’s still AllStar break, and until the NBA resumes, no 15man roster players may play, not even in the gleague.
Didn't know that, but i'll still be surprised if he plays another game with them tbh.

[exstatic]

Didn't know that, but i'll still be surprised if he plays another game with them tbh.

Don’t be. We have to showcase Richardson for possible trades to contenders during the draft or this summer, and see what we have in Romeo, and maybe showcase him if he isn’t an organizational fit. Oh, and we need to lose some games, too.

[The Truth #6]

Too soon to say with Primo. Hope for the best but he could be an “irrational confidence” player. Or at least that’s his floor, maybe. But I am confident he will never reach Kawhi’s ceiling for social awkwardness and being an asshole.

[KingKev]

He needs to stay in Austin. Let’s hope JRich can put up numbers as the tank rolls on so we can move him this summer.

It’s also a great time to see what we have in Langford.

Primo will get his opportunity eventually but he is still very raw and has been underwhelming when given quality minutes at the NBA level but the talent is certainly there. He is buying into the Spurs development process. Absolutely no need to rush this, especially when we can build other
players value.

[exstatic]

Too soon to say with Primo. Hope for the best but he could be an “irrational confidence” player. Or at least that’s his floor, maybe. But I am confident he will never reach Kawhi’s ceiling for social awkwardness and being an asshole.

He can create space for his own 3 point shot. That’s the best offensive weapon you can have in the current NBA climate. It makes his ceiling very high.

He’s shooting 49% on 3s in Austin, and he has the ball in his hands most of the time. This isn’t “Oh, he’s shooting well, but it’s the gleague”. He’s shooting a phenomenal percentage on over 5 attempts per game. Phenomenal.

What I like most is that his training is dual track, and he seems to be absorbing it. In Austin, he’s being trained to control the ball, and score. In SA, he’s being trained to play team ball, and share, probably so he doesn’t turn into another Westbrook or Harden. You want the head of the snake to have maybe 26-28% USG. While 35% USG may win you an MVP, it won’t win you too many LoBs. The other players need to touch the ball and score so when you need them to in the playoffs, they’re ready.

[R. DeMurre]

He can create space for his own 3 point shot. That’s the best offensive weapon you can have in the current NBA climate. It makes his ceiling very high.

He’s shooting 49% on 3s in Austin, and he has the ball in his hands most of the time. This isn’t “Oh, he’s shooting well, but it’s the gleague”. He’s shooting a phenomenal percentage on over 5 attempts per game. Phenomenal.

What I like most is that his training is dual track, and he seems to be absorbing it. In Austin, he’s being trained to control the ball, and score. In SA, he’s being trained to play team ball, and share, probably so he doesn’t turn into another Westbrook or Harden. You want the head of the snake to have maybe 26-28% USG. While 35% USG may win you an MVP, it won’t win you too many LoBs. The other players need to touch the ball and score so when you need them to in the playoffs, they’re ready.


Where are you getting the 49% on threes stat? I see him shooting 37.8% on threes through 18 G-League games.

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Joshua-Primo/D-League/134341/2022

[The Truth #6]

Where are you getting the 49% on threes stat? I see him shooting 37.8% on threes through 18 G-League games.

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Joshua-Primo/D-League/134341/2022

I saw 48.3% for the last five games. But definitely not for the season. The forum wouldn’t stop talking about that if true. So, my original point stands—hopeful, and a step back 3 is a great tool to have, but he’s young so needs more time. His game looks to have more dynamic potential than Vassel, so that’s relatively reassuring to me.

[exstatic]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/gleague/players/p/primojo01d.html

Shows 11 games. Maybe they’re not including cup play?

[emanueldavidginobili]

Where are you getting the 49% on threes stat? I see him shooting 37.8% on threes through 18 G-League games.

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Joshua-Primo/D-League/134341/2022
They have a Showcase which isn't counted as the regular season. He is shooting 48.5% from three in six regular season games.

https://stats.gleague.nba.com/player/1630563/

[KingKev]

16/33 in the g-league is a small sample size. He is 32% in the NBA on twice as many 3s.

I like Primo as a prospect but ppl on this board are getting carried away.

[exstatic]

16/33 in the g-league is a small sample size. He is 32% in the NBA on twice as many 3s.

I like Primo as a prospect but ppl on this board are getting carried away.

29-59 on my page. The most important part is the HE’S CREATING THOSE SHOTS FOR HIMSELF IN THE GLEAGUE. He's got the rock when he’s in the game. A handful may be return passes, and unfortunately the gleague stats aren’t as comprehensive as their nba stats, so we don’t know. It’s 5 attempts per game, which is pretty robust.

[KingKev]

29-59 on my page. The most important part is the HE’S CREATING THOSE SHOTS FOR HIMSELF IN THE GLEAGUE. He's got the rock when he’s in the game. A handful may be return passes, and unfortunately the gleague stats aren’t as comprehensive as their nba stats, so we don’t know. It’s 5 attempts per game, which is pretty robust.

Upside is there for sure but what he does in the NBA is what matters and he isn't close to ready so see consistent NBA minutes. The fact you can’t even get consistent/reliable numbers for the g-league says something.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Upside is there for sure but what he does in the NBA is what matters and he isn't close to ready so see consistent NBA minutes. The fact you can’t even get consistent/reliable numbers for the g-league says something.
I agree 100% but I think Pop is going to find Primo rotation minutes some how for the rest of the season. He might not be ready for consistent NBA minutes but it can't hurt really if he does get those minutes.

[KingKev]

I agree 100% but I think Pop is going to find Primo rotation minutes some how for the rest of the season. He might not be ready for consistent NBA minutes but it can't hurt really if he does get those minutes.

I fully trust PATFO’s process for developing someone like Primo and am pretty conifdent has has the potential to be a mong term building block the same way DJ and maybe Keldon/Vassell are. I’m no no rush to give him NBA minutes when JRich and Langford need immediate assessment and could bring back something in a trade however.

[emanueldavidginobili]

1497006400005885958
“(Sending Primo back to Austin) is not in the cards,” Popovich said. “He’s gotta play. Throw him in the frying pan.”
“It’s time to go out there and be accountable, like everybody else,” Popovich said.

[tonight...you]

1497006400005885958
“(Sending Primo back to Austin) is not in the cards,” Popovich said. “He’s gotta play. Throw him in the frying pan.”
“It’s time to go out there and be accountable, like everybody else,” Popovich said.


He's about to get TonyParker'd. Hope he stands up and takes it productively like Tony and LDN did.
Pop is gonna be on him like white on rice.

[slick'81]

He's about to get TonyParker'd. Hope he stands up and takes it productively like Tony and LDN did.
Pop is gonna be on him like white on rice.

:lmao Hell be ok