Lakers: Beating the 73-9 Warriors made me the GOAT

[DMC]

today's player fans upset that someone would be considered GOAT without needing to self proclaim it

[FrostKing]

Why will the media never acknowledge that Jordan won his rings against comp in the Finals? Done Magic, Barkley, Drexler, and Malone? Really? Can you imagine what the '13 Spurs and '16 Warriors would've done to those opponents?

Jordan owned every player in his generation (except maybe Bird), which consisted of the Dream Team.

Are you implying the 90s had weaker players or superior teams were eliminated in the Western Conference playoffs? Jordan didn't stumble across a le like Hakeem in 95. Chances are Jordan would have wheeled the Bulls to a 4th straight in a shortened season....

[TDMVPDPOY]

Jordan owned every player in his generation (except maybe Bird), which consisted of the Dream Team.

Are you implying the 90s had weaker players or superior teams were eliminated in the Western Conference playoffs? Jordan didn't stumble across a le like Hakeem in 95. Chances are Jordan would have wheeled the Bulls to a 4th straight in a shortened season....

the t eams he played agains werent well structured, too many 1 man teams surrounded by gleague talent...

[FrostKing]

this is why i cant stand jordan- dude is so phony

James speaks, dresses and acts like a 33 year old child in comparison to Jordan.

You can't buy class and LeBron doesn't have it. Just a wealthy Cleveland hoodlum.

[FrostKing]

the t eams he played agains werent well structured, too many 1 man teams surrounded by gleague talent...

I agree with this statement. Might make 96 Bulls accomplishment more impressive considering the more balanced parity and back 2 back games

[Captain Marvel]

You can tell HarlemHeat37 is really upset about the greatness of Jordan

[lefty]

I’m not sure about that. Chuck Daly was their leader. Zeke with his poisonous personality would have ruined that team if Daly didn’t keep them in check.

Both had huge egos tbh

[lefty]

how can u be the goat when u loss twice to duncan, nearly 3 times

then u loss how many against gsw? yeh u beat one of the great teams that finish 73-9, that doesnt make up for the previous 2-3 fails against the gsw

Who’s your GOAT?

[lefty]

Get the outta here The '92 Blazers and '93 Suns were deeper than the '16 Warriors.

92 Blazers?
no

93 Suns
Majerle should have never been an all star, his defense was overrated.
Ceballos missed the finals.
Ainge and ChambersTOSB.
Mark West was a scrub.
Oliver Miller
Dumas was talented but Westphal didn’t play him as much as he should have
KJ was good tbh
It was pretty much Chuck and KJ.

Bulls had a much better bench

[Killakobe81]

92 Blazers?
no

93 Suns
Majerle should have never been an all star, his defense was overrated.
Ceballos missed the finals.
Ainge and ChambersTOSB.
Mark West was a scrub.
Oliver Miller
Dumas was talented but Westphal didn’t play him as much as he should have
KJ was good tbh
It was pretty much Chuck and KJ.

Bulls had a much better bench

Only thing you can knock MJ for is all the opposing guards in the Finals except Drexler and GP were to small like Byron Scott or small and unaththletic like Hornacek... Majerle tried hard but his defense was vastly overrated.
He still dominated though when SF switched on him

[ambchang]

what I had him as the GOAT SF (which makes him top 5) pre 2016 ... dont act like a freaking kid. saying someone is pitentiall better is not "hating".
How is that hate because I think Bron is better? he has some # of rings with better counting numbers alonger peak etc.
Magic and Bird are extremely debatable but play different positions, but I admit I am biased.
KD is a two time finals MVP something that mattered in our previous debates ... (but apparently means nada now because you love Bird)
Imagine what KD can do with another HOF player and two other all stars ...LARRY never had THAT kind of support ...

Saying someone is "coming for" doesnt mean they will get there, KD can blow out his knee.
But a case can be made if we are just talking hoops, not legacy just skill ... like scoring shooting etc. that KD has already passed Bird. he will never rebound or pass as good as Bird but he is a better defender and based on our previous debates that matters also or only when it suits your side of the argument? KD has better range is a better driver has better handles. better at dunking finishing in transition. I could go on but you get the point.

Saying KD who is one of the most gifted natural scorers ever MAY surpass Larry Bird on my all time SF list is not some out of left field "hate". its based in tangible facts as well as teh eye test. you just value Bird's passing (We all do) and rebounding but KD is better at a lot more things than bird is better than him at.

Just because he is a BAN ...doesnt mean he is not still great.

Magic and bird are close but I think magic got ranked generally higher by the public because:
A) he’s playS for the LAkers
B) his prime was a few years later than bird when the league was really taking off
C) birds prime was burrowing Jordan every playoffs, the propaganda machine just wants to treat it as it never happened because Jordan is supposedly this flawless ball player

From a pure basketball perspective, I’d put bird slightly higher. But even then it’s not by much. It really is splitting g hairs for me.

As for Durant, he slight is that Durant is coming for the crown. He’s not. Durant is gervin on a loaded team, and nobody would put gervin in the top ten. Don’t start with the bird team is just as loaded. It’s not about he number of Allstate it’s about the team and the compe ion. Celtics had the lakers, pistons and 6ers. To a lessser degree Atlanta and Milwaukee, who are at least compe ive against the Celtics. The warriors on the other hand were so loaded that you can put a top 50 level scorer in the team and they’d ring. Nique, Kawhi, Pippen, worthy, even a healthy paul George could have rung with that roster in place of Durant. Who can step in for bird and ring three times?

But back to topic, curry could barely crack the top 20 in most lists. And that alone tells me the list is flawed.

[ambchang]

1. doesnt matter what you are saying ... I agree that some of those positions are weaker than others bet those are the breaks.
2. They are being judged amongst their peers. Sure it might be cheating to put steph at Pg or duncan at PF .... I have always listed Zeke but decided Steph's impact puts him slightly over, so sue me ...it's my list. steph (along with Mike D) has revolutionalized hoops whether you hate it or love it ...
3. all this comparing big vs small makes no sense ... I rate guys based on rings/impact/stats/eye-test those are the best at what they did at their "designated positions".

We all know Tim/hakeem were really centers if we gonna play the positional game, but I wanted to split the diffrence and get all three on my top two teams. To me its close enough that Duncan/Hakeem/Shaq to make sure they all were represented and I think are better choices than KG/Dirk/Malone/chuck etc.

So you just contradicted yourself. It’s your list so you can put Calvin booth In There. Just that it isn’t very convincing.

[ambchang]

hmm win shares per 48:


KD has two seasons in the top 20 ... (14 and 18)
Larry bird does not have one season higher than KD's third and 4th worst showings ...34 and 47.
Wait, wasnt win shares one of the metrics on why Gasol is MVPau?!!!

where is Bird on this list?
Im looking, looking ... Bird's best season is listed at 129th in fact he holds 130 and 131
But Im "hating" on bird?

Maybe Im being to kind.
Other small forwards with higer wS/48 seasons include KAwhi and Julius Erving

dont like Win shares?

PEr is far kinder there Bird's best season
is higher than Dirk's or Kawhi's

The facts are ... I respect Bird think he is great because of his Vision, killer instinct inate feel for the game etc.
I still have him over KD.
But at some point, if KD keeps winning and scoring and extendiing his prime its a silly argument based not on any facts. s
kills, Counting numbers, metrics etc all point to KD.


BTW Lefty and anyone else feel free to refer to this as to why Magic was better as well ...

I have clarified before. Parity skews we numbers and you have to put the compe ion in context.

Comparing ws on the same team vs ws across eras is a totally different exercise.

KD got out in a system that allows him to beef up on ws. Like Billips with the pistons.

[Killakobe81]

So you just contradicted yourself. It’s your list so you can put Calvin booth In There. Just that it isn’t very convincing.

Don't be obtuse all those guys are at least top 20 players...

[Killakobe81]

I have clarified before. Parity skews we numbers and you have to put the compe ion in context.

Comparing ws on the same team vs ws across eras is a totally different exercise.

KD got out in a system that allows him to beef up on ws. Like Billips with the pistons.

Magic was in the same era so was Julius Erving.
Why are their win shares per 48/higher?
You brought up win share as a metric ting on Per.. Your excuse helps with the KD argument not vs Magic or Doc.

[ambchang]

Don't be obtuse all those guys are at least top 20 players...

Your contradiction is that you have t move people out of position to fit them in Your top 10

Magic was in the same era so was Julius Erving.
Why are their win shares per 48/higher?
You brought up win share as a metric ting on Per.. Your excuse helps with the KD argument not vs Magic or Doc.

Bird led the league in ws bpm and vorp multiple times.

[DMC]

Don't be obtuse all those guys are at least top 20 players...

You cannot just keep putting people into the top 20 without pushing other people out.

I think there are now like 70 players in the top 20 all time.

[Killakobe81]

Your contradiction is that you have t move people out of position to fit them in Your top 10


Bird led the league in ws bpm and vorp multiple times.

Only person moved was Hakeem.
Duncan was isted as a PF for most of his career especially through his prime.
MJ/achilles were SG, Bird/Lebron a SF, Shaq/Kareem were centers , Magic and Steph PG's ...

Outside of a cheat to get both Hakeem and shaq on my 2nd team the list is fair. you can disagree on who should be on an alltime first or second team but I think every single player on both lists are worthy ...steph is probably the most debatable, but again after Magic ...you could argue for a number of PG's ..I chose Steph.

Choosing between Dirk/Malone/KG would be tough my first reaction was KG, seeing Dirk up close here in DFW makes me fond of him and Malone has great numbers.

I would choose none of them over Hakeem and since Shaq and hakeem were so close (imho) I moved Dream who was shorter than Tim to PF.

[Killakobe81]

BTW a lot of great players dont have all that lengthy of careers

Steph is almost 10 years in ...
KD is almost 12 years in .. .

Larry bird started of his first season was in 1979 and he stopped playing in 1992 ...
Isiah Thomas started in 1981 and ended in 1994

Both were "washed" in their last season ...
To say it's to early to start looking at some of these current stars as having surpassed their 80's/90's counterparts is false.

[lefty]

I’m not a big fan of all those metrics tbh

[Killakobe81]

Your contradiction is that you have t move people out of position to fit them in Your top 10


Bird led the league in ws bpm and vorp multiple times.

VORP?
The metric where Russell Westbrook has the highest recorded season ever?
The same metric that puts Duncan's great 2001-2002 as 48th?
That metric?!

[ambchang]

VORP?
The metric where Russell Westbrook has the highest recorded season ever?
The same metric that puts Duncan's great 2001-2002 as 48th?
That metric?!

Again, you are comparing across eras/seasons, and VORP does take into account the "average" player at that position as well, and with Westbrook, it was clear the THunder were forcing all the action through him, basically making him the system.

I really hope you can understand the metrics before you attack them.

There are cases where one or two abnormalities can creep up once in a while, like Michael Adams scoring 25ppg or Isaiah Thomas suddenly having an MVP season, but for a guy like Bird, you are talking about multiple seasons of absolute stellar and dominant play.

[spurraider21]

Uncle Tomin’ it up is a fool proof way for black people to get rich , Chris Rock literally admitted that his comedy routines revolved around uncle tomin for the white folks.

sounds accurate, but is there a link for det?

[ambchang]

Only person moved was Hakeem.
Duncan was isted as a PF for most of his career especially through his prime.
MJ/achilles were SG, Bird/Lebron a SF, Shaq/Kareem were centers , Magic and Steph PG's ...

Outside of a cheat to get both Hakeem and shaq on my 2nd team the list is fair. you can disagree on who should be on an alltime first or second team but I think every single player on both lists are worthy ...steph is probably the most debatable, but again after Magic ...you could argue for a number of PG's ..I chose Steph.

Choosing between Dirk/Malone/KG would be tough my first reaction was KG, seeing Dirk up close here in DFW makes me fond of him and Malone has great numbers.

I would choose none of them over Hakeem and since Shaq and hakeem were so close (imho) I moved Dream who was shorter than Tim to PF.

Exactly, which is why you broke your own rule to force Hakeem in.

[Will Hunting]

sounds accurate, but is there a link for det?

It was in some interview I saw, he was talking about how he discovered that talking about black people in a certain way drew a reaction from white people