Resuming CBA talks

[AFBlue]

This sucks. I get that Stern is an ass, and that to color this deal as anything other than the players taking it in the shorts is rediculous...but I could honestly give two shits about principled objection from millionare players. I finally make it back to San Antonio after six years abroad and I've got no Spurs to go watch. Totally selfish...I know. But I can't help it.

[vy65]

Well, it isn't a negotiating tactic either, seeing that there's no longer an union to negotiate with.

Labor law intends to promote good faith bargaining. The league's arguing that disclaimer, and the use of litigation, are bad faith negotiation tactics. Regardless of the union's existence, a judge will have to consider this not-so-thin point.

[ElNono]

Now the union also has ammo in the treats of "take this or we're rolling back to a shittier proposal" and "you have until X day to accept this deal". I can't see how that can be considered good-faith bargaining either.

[ElNono]

Labor law intends to promote good faith bargaining. The league's arguing that disclaimer, and the use of litigation, are bad faith negotiation tactics. Regardless of the union's existence, a judge will have to consider this not-so-thin point.

Such point was made by the NBA and the judge deemed it "thin" as far as a negotiating tactic. Obviously, you must know something the judge doesn't.

[Mr. Body]

The happiest result for me will be David Stern thrown out on his expensive, pampered ass. He went from one of the best commissioners in all of sports to one of the foulest, most reprehensible.

[ElNono]

Surprised I didn't hear Fish say "Owners haven't felt enough pain yet"... ;)

[Shank]

Hey guys! What's happening around here? Anything good?

[vy65]

Why would that be bad faith negotiating?

[mavsfan1000]

lol Stern meltdown

[Mel_13]

Stern is a piece of work. The union has agreed to billions in givebacks and Stern can say with a straight face that the union isn't negotiating in good faith. Incredible.

[vy65]

Such point was made by the NBA and the judge deemed it "thin" as far as a negotiating tactic. Obviously, you must know something the judge doesn't.

At that time, the judge thought the threat of litigation was thin - hence him saying shit like "if there's a gun on the table, there probably aren't any bullets in it." In other words, the threat of litigation didn't have any teeth in it and therefore the League's argument that such a "bad faith" negotiating tactic was thin.

Now that nuclear button has been pushed, you can't see that threat is thin anymore.


Nov. 2 (Bloomberg) -- The union representing National Basketball Association players asked a judge to dismiss a league lawsuit seeking to have a court declare that its player lockout doesn’t violate antitrust law.

The NBA sued the National Basketball Players Association in August, claiming the union was threatening to use antitrust litigation to extract better terms in contract talks.

At a hearing in Manhattan federal court today, a lawyer for the union asked a judge to throw the case out, claiming there’s no legal conflict for him to determine at this stage.

“They’re asking you to do something unprecedented and inappropriate, and you should respectfully decline,” Jeffrey Kessler told U.S. District Judge Paul Gardephe.

The hearing came a day after the NBA season was scheduled to begin. NBA Commissioner David Stern last week announced that a breakdown in negotiations between the two sides had forced the league to cancel all of the games scheduled for November. The move means the NBA will have a shortened season for only the second time in its 66-year history.

The league and the players’ union started mediated talks on Oct. 18 to end the lockout.

Jeffrey Mishkin, a lawyer for the NBA, defended the league’s request for a declaration from the court.

‘Concrete Dispute’

“There is a real, live, concrete dispute here that’s not hypothetical,” he told Gardephe.

The judge called some of the league’s allegations “very thin.”

The NBA claims in its suit that the union has threatened on more than two dozen occasions to give up its role as the exclusive bargaining representative of league players.

A so-called decertification can pave the way for antitrust claims against the league, such as those filed by National Football League players after their labor talks broke down in March.

“It’s like taking a loaded gun and putting it on the table,” Mishkin argued, referring to the union’s actions.

“If they’re putting a gun on the table, it’s not clear they have any bullets in it,” Gardephe answered.

The two sides are discussing how to split money from a league that had about $4.3 billion in revenue last season. Stern has said the league’s 30 teams collectively lost at least $300 million in each of the past three seasons.

The case is National Basketball Association v. National Basketball Players Association, 11-cv-05369, U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York (Manhattan).

--Editors: Andrew Dunn, Fred Strasser

To contact the reporters on this story: Bob Van Voris in New York at [email protected].

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Michael Hytha at [email protected]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-03/nba-players-union-asks-judge-to-throw-out-league-s-lawsuit.html

[ElNono]

Why would that be bad faith negotiating?

Ultimatums don't strike me as good-faith bargaining. There's nothing wrong with offering a shit deal. But treating to pull it if not accepted by X day doesn't sound like bargaining to me.

Then again, the union has a stronger case with anti-trust, so it might not matter.

[eric365]

Now that the season is done, I just hope they will get a deal for the next 15 years

[mavsfan1000]

It all comes down to how much everyone hates Stern.

[ElNono]

At that time, the judge thought the threat of litigation was thin - hence him saying shit like "if there's a gun on the table, there probably aren't any bullets in it." In other words, the threat of litigation didn't have any teeth in it and therefore the League's argument that such a "bad faith" negotiating tactic was thin.

Now that nuclear button has been pushed, you can't see that threat is thin anymore.

Thanks for reminding me he said it was "very thin", not just "thin". :lol

The point stands. As a negotiating tactic, it has no bullets.

The union is no more, the NBA has no longer any party to negotiate with, and as such, the claim of a negotiating tactic is moot at this stage.

[vy65]

Ultimatums don't strike me as good-faith bargaining. There's nothing wrong with offering a shit deal. But treating to pull it if not accepted by X day doesn't sound like bargaining to me.

Then again, the union has a stronger case with anti-trust, so it might not matter.

That's just aggressive negotiating. It's not the same as blowing up the entire process by filing suit.

[dylankerouac]

So what's next?

The owners started this. Gave the players an offer the players did not like and publicly have said that their next offer will be worse. I don't know how the courts will completely side with the owners.

Now that the league has disbanned what's next? I have read on here that the league and owners can continue talking but I have also read that even if the league and owners come to an agreement in the next 45 days it is too late. So then, what's next? Sorry if I missed this earlier.

[ElNono]

That's just aggressive negotiating. It's not the same as blowing up the entire process by filing suit.

Debatable. On the other hand, owners were well aware of "the nuclear option" going into the talks too. It's not like the union did something illegal.

They were arrogant and they thought players would take the money. Now they'll have to deal with this clusterfuck.

[Giuseppe]

The happiest result for me will be David Stern thrown out on his expensive, pampered ass. He went from one of the best commissioners in all of sports to one of the foulest, most reprehensible.

Yep. He's had this comin' for quite awhile.

[vy65]

Thanks for reminding me he said it was "very thin", not just "thin". :lol

The point stands. As a negotiating tactic, it has no bullets.

The union is no more, the NBA has no longer any party to negotiate with, and as such, the claim of a negotiating tactic is moot at this stage.

That's incorrect. For one, disclaimer means that the union no longer exclusively represents the players -- not that it no longer exists (which would happen with decertification).

For two, the "very thin" threat of litigation has now become real - and everyone knows why this is happening: to give the players better negotiating leverage. Use of litigation as a bargaining ploy is bad faith negotiating which is the league's argument.

[ElNono]

Interesting though that Stern made no mentions of voiding contracts (yet).

[Dex]

:bang :bang :bang

Meanwhile, Spurs fans might as well go ahead and say goodbye to Tim Duncan. Even if he comes back on a new contract in 2012-2013, he'll just be another year older and slower.

[vy65]

Debatable. On the other hand, owners were well aware of "the nuclear option" going into the talks too. It's not like the union did something illegal.

They were arrogant and they thought players would take the money. Now they'll have to deal with this clusterfuck.

I'll give you debatable. But it's much closer to good-faith bargaining than saying fuck it, we'll see you in court.

[vy65]

:bang :bang :bang

Meanwhile, Spurs fans might as well go ahead and say goodbye to Tim Duncan. Even if he comes back on a new contract in 2012-2013, he'll just be another year older and slower.

This.

[ElNono]

That's incorrect. For one, disclaimer means that the union no longer exclusively represents the players -- not that it no longer exists (which would happen with decertification).

Not true. The union is no more. They filed to change into a trade association. Exactly the same that happens after decertification.


For two, the "very thin" threat of litigation has now become real - and everyone knows why this is happening: to give the players better negotiating leverage. Use of litigation as a bargaining ploy is bad faith negotiating which is the league's argument.

You're skipping the "as a negotiation tactic". There's no longer a negotiation taking place, since there's no union to negotiate with. Stern already said that even if they were to have a better proposal, they have nobody to present it to.

[ElNono]

I'll give you debatable. But it's much closer to good-faith bargaining than saying fuck it, we'll see you in court.

No doubt this is hell. Owners can't say they were not aware of this option going in though.

[ElNono]

:bang :bang :bang

Meanwhile, Spurs fans might as well go ahead and say goodbye to Tim Duncan. Even if he comes back on a new contract in 2012-2013, he'll just be another year older and slower.

On the other hand... if contracts are indeed declared null and void, we just jettisoned RJ and Bonner!!!! Yay!!!! :lol

[Duncan2177]

Fuck the players...All a bunch of babies...Thanks Players for complaining about millions of dollars when there are millions of people struggling to live in america. Is 4 Million average salary not enough? I mean come on and get real. The economy sucks just live with it for now. You can revisit the deal when it expires next and america isn't in the crapper. Don't forget without the fans there is NO NBA PLAYERS. NO SALARY. NO NOTHING. So thanks for screwing the fans(your paychecks) over. Like I said BUNCH OF SPOILED BRATS and you just lost a devoted FAN as well as I'm sure you losing them by the minute.

[DPG21920]

Yes, from a selfish standpoint, Duncan going out like this hurts me the most. Holt did Tim so wrong.

[lefty]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1108/nba_g_players_288v.jpg
WTF seriously :lol

[vy65]

Not true. The union is no more. They filed to change into a trade association. Exactly the same that happens after decertification.

While the union no longer has the power to bind all players, saying it "is no more" is incorrect.

With decertification, the union, as an entity, no longer exists. Changing into a trade association is the way non-exclusivity is obtained. The league can still negotiate with the NBPA now, but the NBPA no longer has the exclusive right to bargain on behalf of the players.


You're skipping the "as a negotiation tactic". There's no longer a negotiation taking place, since there's no union to negotiate with. Stern already said that even if they were to have a better proposal, they have nobody to present it to.

Think of the argument more along these lines:

Keep in mind, the NFLPA's decertification is not a settled matter. The NFL has filed a charge with the National Labor Relations Board claiming that the NFLPA only wanted to decertify in order to pave the door for antitrust litigation. The league insists the NFLPA never wanted to reach a new collective bargaining agreement. In labor law terms, the league contends that the NFLPA refused to bargain in good faith and thus violated Section 8(b)(3) of the National Labor Relations Act.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_mccann/04/04/nfl-injunction-hearing/index.html#ixzz1diMpMWVa

[lefty]

WOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOO



I wont miss the NBA one bit


It has a become a watered down, rigged, controled, pussyfied league









YEahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh




And FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU Stern

[boutons_deux]

"Is 4 Million average salary not enough"

that's stupid framing, comparing NBA salaries to the 99%.

This is a battle about BRI between 1% owners and 1% players.

[vy65]

For the record - I'm not saying the league's argument is good. Just that the threat of something like decertification and litigation can no longer be called thin.

[Brazil]

Yes, from a selfish standpoint, Duncan going out like this hurts me the most. Holt did Tim so wrong.

:bang

I just moved to the US I was looking for watching a lot of games and having the opportunity to see my spurs and Tim a lot

:bang

I'm just pissed off right now

[lefty]

:bang

I just moved to the US I was looking for watching a lot of games and having the opportunity to see my spurs and Tim a lot

:bang

I'm just pissed off right now
I've been to NBA games

Nananananaereu

:blah

[Dex]

For the record - I'm not saying the league's argument is good. Just that the threat of something like decertification and litigation can no longer be called thin.


netw3rk netw3rk
"It's my way or the highway" "I guess I'll take the highway" "That's a bad negotiating tactic" "It's 1 of the 2 you gave me" "...."

[ElNono]

While the union no longer has the power to bind all players, saying it "is no more" is incorrect.

With decertification, the union, as an entity, no longer exists. Changing into a trade association is the way non-exclusivity is obtained. The league can still negotiate with the NBPA now, but the NBPA no longer has the exclusive right to bargain on behalf of the players.

Which is why the league no longer has the anti-trust protections that are only exempted when bargaining with a union. Legally speaking, the union is no more. Now it's a trade association. While the NBA can still negotiate with them, I'm pretty sure whatever agreement takes place will include a clause that states that the trade association will file to become a union again before the agreement takes place.


Think of the argument more along these lines:

Keep in mind, the NFLPA's decertification is not a settled matter. The NFL has filed a charge with the National Labor Relations Board claiming that the NFLPA only wanted to decertify in order to pave the door for antitrust litigation. The league insists the NFLPA never wanted to reach a new collective bargaining agreement. In labor law terms, the league contends that the NFLPA refused to bargain in good faith and thus violated Section 8(b)(3) of the National Labor Relations Act.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_mccann/04/04/nfl-injunction-hearing/index.html#ixzz1diMpMWVa

And I think this is exactly why Hunter wasted the last couple of months at the bargaining table, unlike the NFLPA which did no such thing. It's going to be very problematic for the NBA to claim that the union didn't want to negotiate in good faith after the past two month's song and dance.


For the record - I'm not saying the league's argument is good. Just that the threat of something like decertification and litigation can no longer be called thin.

I just think you can't leave out the "as a negotiating tactic" from it. This is a clusterfuck now though, that courts will have to shuffle over and determine.

There's no certainties from here on out, for either side.

[ElNono]

This can't be said enough, tbh...



uneducated and ignorant players. "give me give me give me" attitude!

hey Melo ... hey D-Rose .... I know you brothas can afford to put on a $10,000 suit and stand up there like you're someone and act as if you have a clue as to how the business end of the NBA works, but lets see you try and read a book or maybe even just speak proper English?....... but dawg we be doing what is right for the game dawg. we tryin to grow da game of basketball and dey holding it back by not breaking us off some more paper!


:lol

[ElNono]

Players' new legal leaders speak (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33284/players-new-legal-leaders-speak)

[ElNono]

Well, we officially have a free-market league now... Let's see owners start to hire players individually... :lol

[Brazil]

I've been to NBA games

Nananananaereu

:blah


me too but it was an unique opportunity to see as many as I want

[lefty]

me too but it was an unique opportunity to see as many as I want
Yep

Dont worry, next year you will :tu

[ElNono]

Kessler: If you look at it from a player's standpoint, collective bargaining has totally failed. So rather than exercise their labor law rights to futility, they've decided to free up all players to exert their antitrust rights to triple damages. And we think -- not we, the players -- think that is the best protection for NBA players going forward.

I can hear Stern shrieking from here...

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Let's see the NBA play with a bunch of scrub replacement players. I hope they hold auditions, so everyone on Spurstalk can go try out for a team!

[baseline bum]

F*ck the owners. They got their 50% and they were about to get a lot of sytem issues in their favor. They just had to agree on 2 or 3 system issues

They felt they could have even more and made almost no concession. No way the players could have agreed to take it this hard because the owners would have continued the same way for the next CBA in 6 years

LOL, who couldn't see the bait and switch from the owners coming from a mile away?

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

DPG - PG
El Nono - SG
BR Hornet - SF
Lefty - PF
Koolaid Man - C

[lefty]

DPG - PG
El Nono - SG
BR Hornet - SF
Lefty - PF
Koolaid Man - C
WTF

Im not be big enough to play PG

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size
of the fight in the dog!

[Dex]

LOL, who couldn't see the bait and switch from the owners coming from a mile away?

Hell, half the owners probably wanted the lockout. If they were losing money over the past years, no season actually SAVES them money. The players just better hope this litigation doesn't backfire on them, because everyone knows the owners are going to win at the Waiting Game.

[SA210]

How much money do they need?

[ElNono]

DPG - PG
El Nono - SG
BR Hornet - SF
Lefty - PF
Koolaid Man - C

No thanks... I love my non-guaranteed, non-multi-millionaire job :cry :cry :cry

[Mel_13]

LOL, who couldn't see the bait and switch from the owners coming from a mile away?

Billy Hunter (aka Charlie Brown).

[baseline bum]

Stern's response:
TC30HRDwjqM

Stern still going on and on with "our deal will take the average player salary from $5 million to between $7 and $8 million". :cry

No shit that there's going to be inflation in the US dollar over the 10 years of the deal. :rollin

What a con-man. Stern is going to go down as the worst commissioner in the history of the league.

[ElNono]

Hell, half the owners probably wanted the lockout. If they were losing money over the past years, no season actually SAVES them money. The players just better hope this litigation doesn't backfire on them, because everyone knows the owners are going to win at the Waiting Game.

It's no longer a waiting game. It will take time, but it will move forward. At this stage, players went "all-in" on this. It might not end up giving them what they want, but owners now are also risking a whole lot more.

[lefty]

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size
of the fight in the dog!
In this case, I'm Barkleyesque :D

[Mel_13]

Adrian Wojnarowski: There are over 25 player agents on a conference call now discussing the next steps for the players against the NBA,

http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA

If there was one thing that Hunter and Stern could agree upon, it was that neither one of them had much use for the agents. Ironic how the worm has turned.

[boutons_deux]

The owners can write off their business losses, the players can't write off their absent paychecks.

[Libri]

WTF

Im not be big enough to play PG

Don't worry. Pop is coaching. :P

[Mel_13]

Some HOFers may have retired today:

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Ray Allen

[ElNono]

Adrian Wojnarowski: There are over 25 player agents on a conference call now discussing the next steps for the players against the NBA,

http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA

If there was one thing that Hunter and Stern could agree upon, it was that neither one of them had much use for the agents. Ironic how the worm has turned.

I would bet money some of them will be footing the legal fees. They had much more to lose than the players in all this.

[Giuseppe]

If (http://If) there was one thing that Hunter and Stern could agree upon, it was that neither one of them had much use for the agents. Ironic how the worm has turned.

Mel

The agents pointed the way for Hunter.

God bless 'em. At least for the moment the agents saved my hash.

[Giuseppe]

Some HOFers may have retired today:

Tim Duncan

At 13 & 7 he'd a been stealin' otherwise.

[Mel_13]

Mel

The agents pointed the way for Hunter.

God bless 'em. At least for the moment the agents saved my hash.

The agents rendered Hunter irrelevant. He only disclaimed interest because the agents had the votes to decertify.

[DPG21920]

With two lockouts, that's already signed and sealed.

[baseline bum]

Fuck the players...All a bunch of babies...Thanks Players for complaining about millions of dollars when there are millions of people struggling to live in america. Is 4 Million average salary not enough? I mean come on and get real. The economy sucks just live with it for now. You can revisit the deal when it expires next and america isn't in the crapper. Don't forget without the fans there is NO NBA PLAYERS. NO SALARY. NO NOTHING. So thanks for screwing the fans(your paychecks) over. Like I said BUNCH OF SPOILED BRATS and you just lost a devoted FAN as well as I'm sure you losing them by the minute.

But now you can become a Kobe fan since he was all for taking this deal. One door closes but a new one opened for you and your fandom.

[Giuseppe]

The agents rendered Hunter irrelevant. He only disclaimed interest because the agents had the votes to decertify.

3.5 to 1 is DOA.

That's it. And that's all.

[DPG21920]

The owners can write off their business losses, the players can't write off their absent paychecks.

Which shows you how bad this deal was that the players put principle first before money.

[Mel_13]

3.5 to 1 is DOA.

That's it. And that's all.


Ok.

Non-sequitur, but ok.

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Octagon's already engaged w/ several European teams about sending clients Rudy Gay, Stephen Curry and Wesley Matthews overseas, source says.

[timtonymanu]

Lol Stern: The NBA has negotiated in good faith.

Fuckin unreal.

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Stern will keep threatening to void contracts, and many players will say that we welcome the free agency.

[Giuseppe]

Ok.

Non-sequitur, but ok.

Of course. You wouldn't be affected by 3.5 to 1. You'd a been in the high cotton.

[ElNono]

As NBA enters its ‘nuclear winter,’ David Stern cannot blame away his failure (http://blog.chron.com/nba/2011/11/as-nba-enters-its-nuclear-winter-david-stern-cannot-blame-away-his-failure/)

[Brazil]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Stern will keep threatening to void contracts, and many players will say that we welcome the free agency.

:lmao it's becoming better and better

[Giuseppe]

A full vetting is in order.

And that is what we're going to get now. On the street & in the court room.

[Mel_13]

Of course. You wouldn't be affected by 3.5 to 1. You'd a been in the high cotton.

You've been lucid up to now. Heading back to incomprehensible, I see.

[ElNono]

You've been lucid up to now. Heading back to incomprehensible, I see.

Mel, check out that article I linked above... Talks about Stern's legacy. I think you'll enjoy the read.

[Giuseppe]

You've been lucid up to now. Heading back to incomprehensible, I see.

Easy for you to be magnanimous, Mel.:toast

[DPG21920]

Mel's right, Seppe. Cool down.

[Mel_13]

Mel, check out that article I linked above... Talks about Stern's legacy. I think you'll enjoy the read.

I did. Good read. :toast

[Giuseppe]

Mel's right, Seppe. Cool down.

Kori's nephew has regulated.

I stand in abeyance.

[Jacob1983]

Looks like Delonte West gets to keep delivering furniture.

Even if this shit gets fixed in time, do you honestly want a shitty 50 game season?

[ElNono]

Even if this shit gets fixed in time, do you honestly want a shitty 50 game season?

:lobt2:

[slick'81]

lol stern allready gets booed whenever hes on a tv screen

[Mel_13]

ESPN poll:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=pollindex&pollId=127055

[ElNono]

Another ESPN poll... lol no hope

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=nba&pollId=127040

[baseline bum]

Another ESPN poll... lol no hope

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=nba&pollId=127040

LOL @ Wyoming with 100% voting for there being no season.

[Jacob1983]

Looks like people will be watching hockey in February.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Stern needs to be fired. Yet another 'final offer' from him was enough. He is supposed to be the head of the NBA yet they are so clearly divided. Koriwhat is a better leader than Stern at this point.

[Jacob1983]

Maybe this will get him fired or removed. An NBA without Stern: priceless

[DJ Mbenga]

you guys hate stern but silver will be just as stupid.

[ElNono]

you guys hate stern but silver will be just as stupid.

+1... or more...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Who is to say what type of leadership comes from this crop of NBA ownership. It seems that Stern may just hold on because the owners are so divided that they cannot come to a consensus to out him.

If Stern is outed he is not going to name his successor. It would stand to reason that they would elect an entirely new regime if that were to occur. If Stern steps down I think I would be sick though.

The case is not going to be heard in the Minnesota District Court. Its going to be a different venue. I really want to know what court and subsequent appeals court this is going to be heard in. Prepare yourself for injunction requests and summary judgements. I will be interested to read their arguments. Its much more revealing than the posturing press conferences and tweets we've had for the last 5 months.

[DJ Mbenga]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/447282530.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1321316662&Signature=m9cOPjeRY0tOF4Vebh%2BiduVDkF8%3D

[baseline bum]

https://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/full/447282530.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1321316662&Signature=m9cOPjeRY0tOF4Vebh%2BiduVDkF8%3D

Image isn't showing.

[ElNono]

I completely agree with that non-showing image :lol

[mavsfan1000]

Please fire Stern.

[DJ Mbenga]

Image isn't showing.

damn. it shows for me. well let me work on getting it right: does this work?
http://hoopdrive.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/stern2k12.jpg

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo41supcvT1qznmiyo1_500.jpg

[ElNono]

^^^ :lol

[baseline bum]

:rollin

[vy65]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/ian_thomsen/11/14/nba.players.disband/index.html?sct=nba_t11_a0

Really good article recommended by Varner.

I lean more towards the owners in the dispute, but seriously, fuck both sides.

[ElNono]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/ian_thomsen/11/14/nba.players.disband/index.html?sct=nba_t11_a0

Really good article recommended by Varner.

I lean more towards the owners in the dispute, but seriously, fuck both sides.

Thanks for the heads up.

[ElNono]

http://www.48minutesofhell.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/NBATweet-11.jpg

:lol

[Mel_13]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/ian_thomsen/11/14/nba.players.disband/index.html?sct=nba_t11_a0

Really good article recommended by Varner.

I lean more towards the owners in the dispute, but seriously, fuck both sides.

Thanks for posting.

Seems to be saying that owners will come to regret offering such a shitty deal and the players will come to regret not taking it.

[dbestpro]

Seems like the players relying on winning an antitrust lawsuit have less standing than the NFL players cause so many or going to play in Europe for a whole lot less. Really odd thinking.

[The Truth #6]

I believe the players tried to negotiate in good faith. They made concessions. But you can't trap a rat in a corner without a way to escape. Forcing the players' hand was a bad move and it shouldn't be surprising that it backfired on Stern and the owners. In fact, Stern and the owners' attitude toward the players seems naive, as if they're dealing with dumb, ignorant people who have to be told what they need to do. The players may not be well educated but they understand money.

It's going to be hard to take the NBA seriously for a while. Stern has been on a bad run: from trying to coerce Seattle to build a free arena for the owners to this. He should know his legacy will not be decided by what the owners think of him. He went in partnership with a lousy group of owners and this is what he gets.

[Mel_13]

Some good news:

#spurs Matt Bonner, VP of (former) @nbpa, says he will consider overseas options

http://twitter.com/#!/Monroe_SA

[The Truth #6]

The owners real issues were with themselves and they never faced facts and looked themselves in the mirror. That's on them.

I still think the talk of Stern keeping a contingent of militant owners at bay could easily have been all part of their sales job - everyone in the media cites this as a truth because they kept hearing rumors, but because the owners weren't ever talking it's hard to know. Maybe a lot of the owners are happy to lose a season - if that's the case then the NBA was already screwed anyway.

[dbestpro]

You have to take most of what the media has said with a grain of salt as they are more aligned with the players. Going against the players could easily leave certain media on the outside looking in when play resumes.

[GSH]

The deal-breakers were "system issues". Those are things that would allow small market teams to be competitive, rather than allowing a few teams to dominate by unlimited spending. Stern insists that allowing all teams to be competitive is best for the health of the league. The bastard.

All over the country, more people blame the players than the owners. Except here. Buncha people got spoiled watching Tim Duncan carry a budget-payroll team. Well there's not likely to be another Tim coming our way. If the players get what they want, you can all get used to watching your team play .500 ball and make first-round exits. But, hey, you can keep up the perennial bitching about how the team never signs any big-name free agents. That's the one thing that won't change.

[ElNono]

You have to take most of what the media has said with a grain of salt as they are more aligned with the players. Going against the players could easily leave certain media on the outside looking in when play resumes.

I think it's been pretty well covered on both sides. As a matter of fact, I would say the owners/league had much more media coverage, considering they own a full fledged TV channel and a high traffic website.

But the union always knew they were not going to win the PR battle.

[ElNono]

Frankly, I'm not even sure Stern could sell that last proposal to his hardline owners. In a way, I think he expected that deal not to go through.

[DPG21920]

Thanks for posting.

Seems to be saying that owners will come to regret offering such a shitty deal and the players will come to regret not taking it.

I respectfully disagree with the article. It was well intentioned from a fan standpoint, but as I consider myself a pretty die-hard fan, I am completely with the players on this.

Yes it sucks as a fan, but I empathize with the players and fully back what they are doing. My only complaint was that they shuffled their feet (allowed Hunter to stall), but even then I feel they did that from a good place (belief they could make the owners truly negotiate) so it's hard to feel too upset at the players for that IMO.

[DPG21920]

You have to take most of what the media has said with a grain of salt as they are more aligned with the players. Going against the players could easily leave certain media on the outside looking in when play resumes.

No offense, but is this a joke? If anything, the PR machine has clearly been in favor of the owners.

[DPG21920]

Frankly, I'm not even sure Stern could sell that last proposal to his hardline owners. In a way, I think he expected that deal not to go through.

:lol Did you think that since Stern flat out said it?

[therealtruth]

The one thing that is hurting the players is they are not even making an effort to try to address the owners concerns about competitive balance. Basically they've given the attitude that they don't care about competitive balance or cited the example of Spurs and OKC to say that it's possible to be a small market and be competitive. Or that dumb general managers (gm) are the problem.

If they want to keep their system they ought to promote alternative suggestions like maybe a school for gm's. The NBA requires players to stay a year in school why shouldn't gm's go to school? It would improve the product if more gm's knew what they were doing.

[Giuseppe]

The NBA requires players to stay a year in school

As long as we're on the subject...Who in the fuck are they to require a person to stay in school? They have a sweetheart deal with colleges in this country. The kids rake in the dough for the colleges and the NBA then gets the fruits of their labors at the same time for not one single dime. What a crock of absolute shit. How that stands the test of jurisprudence is beyond me. The fuckin' nerve.

[dbestpro]

No offense, but is this a joke? If anything, the PR machine has clearly been in favor of the owners.

Rose colored glasses.

[Mel_13]

The one thing that is hurting the players is they are not even making an effort to try to address the owners concerns about competitive balance.

Seriously?

The players were willing to make plenty of concessions on system issues, but they weren't willing to concede every point the owners demanded.

[Giuseppe]

This

[[[Congratulations to the players! Glad they have some courage and were not intimidated by ultimatums. It is not about money, Its about controlling your own future, it is a power dynamic and I am glad these players recognize that. 50 million dollar Slave a good book and good points. In these times we should support anyone who seeks to keep their labor earning no matter what economic class their in, Basketball is only secondary and a game. Go Players/People/Individuals!]]]

[dbestpro]

If the players do not win their antitrust lawsuit they will have really opened pandora's box. Most analysts feel their suit has less merit that the NFLs. A 47% imaginary line by owners and a hard cap for next year is coming. The next confusing question may be what will happen to the NBA draft?

[Giuseppe]

a hard cap for next year is coming.

I hate to admit it, but, it's the bitter truth.

But, tonite? Tonite "we" won.

[therealtruth]

Seriously?

The players were willing to make plenty of concessions on system issues, but they weren't willing to concede every point the owners demanded.

They players said they would concede points if they could keep the same system and that they want more points if they give system concessions. I was saying instead of just taking the owners system concessions to improve competitive balance they should introduce some of their own that don't restrict player movement but address the problem.

[dbestpro]

This

[[[Congratulations to the players! Glad they have some courage and were not intimidated by ultimatums. It is not about money, Its about controlling your own future, it is a power dynamic and I am glad these players recognize that. 50 million dollar Slave a good book and good points. In these times we should support anyone who seeks to keep their labor earning no matter what economic class their in, Basketball is only secondary and a game. Go Players/People/Individuals!]]]

People who own businesses are people too. They put up the money, take the risk, deal with all the lawsuits, pay the taxes, and take the heat for their employees actions. This is not $20/hr or even $50/hr jobs. These employees are paid, pampered, and spoiled. The owners have a right to expect a profit and a duty to their minority owners and fans to take control of their business to ensure its lifelong viability.

[ElNono]

:lol Did you think that since Stern flat out said it?

He did? I must've missed it.

[Mel_13]

They players said they would concede points if they could keep the same system and that they want more points if they give system concessions. I was saying instead of just taking the owners system concessions to improve competitive balance they should introduce some of their own that don't restrict player movement but address the problem.


Not true. Players were willing to go to 50/50 and yield some concessions on system issues.

Btw, where is your call for comprehensive revenue sharing?

[Mel_13]

The owners have a right to expect a profit

They were seeking to be guaranteed a profit regardless of how poorly they managed their businesses.

[benefactor]

People who own businesses are people too. They put up the money, take the risk, deal with all the lawsuits, pay the taxes, and take the heat for their employees actions. This is not $20/hr or even $50/hr jobs. These employees are paid, pampered, and spoiled. The owners have a right to expect a profit and a duty to their minority owners and fans to take control of their business to ensure its lifelong viability.
Umm...yeah, we've already covered this shitty argument. Next.

[ElNono]

If the players do not win their antitrust lawsuit they will have really opened pandora's box. Most analysts feel their suit has less merit that the NFLs. A 47% imaginary line by owners and a hard cap for next year is coming. The next confusing question may be what will happen to the NBA draft?

Players don't need to win the lawsuit, as seen on the NFL case. They just need to create enough uncertainty where the owners find themselves between having a judge decide what the next CBA should look like or sitting down and finally listening to the players. Under that premise (no control vs control), there's little doubt what route they'll take. As far as merit, I disagree. There's no doubt the NBA system won't pass anti-trust scrutiny. The league's defense will center on whether negotiations by the union were carried in bad faith. And after the last few month's bargaining sessions, it will be difficult for the league to prove that. That's actually the opposite from the NFL case, where the union decertified immediately.

All that said, when you get the courts involved, nothing is certain. Venue, arguments, evidence, etc all matter.


They players said they would concede points if they could keep the same system and that they want more points if they give system concessions. I was saying instead of just taking the owners system concessions to improve competitive balance they should introduce some of their own that don't restrict player movement but address the problem.

They did mention a much improved revenue-sharing program, much like the other professional leagues in the country. Owners don't want to hear it though.

[ElNono]

Umm...yeah, we've already covered this shitty argument. Next.

Next question is probably "Do you think players have the votes to decertify?"
smh

[Cane]

The agents and leaders of the players union should've pursued this route earlier but I still think the owners are going to "win", the only questions are by how much and when. Fuck this shit and there better be a god damn discount on NBA2k12 :depressed

[Dex]

Spot on article by Thomsen.


Senseless NBA players, owners will look back on lockout with regret
By Ian Thomsen / Inside The NBA / SI

Twenty years from now, when the men on each side of the table look back on the abandoned NBA season of 2011-12, what will they say it was all about? What were the issues? Why couldn't they agree?

Right now the owners are blaming the players, and the players are blaming the owners. If only the other side of the table would have shown common sense then an agreement would have been made long ago -- that's what each side is saying about its former partner.

But 20 years from now, when the emotions have boiled away and they can see this breakdown for what it is, the owners and players will also blame themselves. The wise people on each side of this argument will think about what they might have done differently, and they will realize the needless harm that was done.

There was no natural disaster at play here. Nothing beyond the control of the owners and players forced them to push this season to the edge of cancellation. They did this together.

They will continue to blame and complain about each other. But any person of reason, watching from afar, is going to recognize blame on both sides of the table. You may feel more anger for the owners or for the players, but if you are a fan of basketball then the bottom line is that you are angry with everybody who had anything to do with the fact that there is $4 billion in revenue on the table and they can't even talk any longer about how to share it.

For the NBA owners and players to shut down their league during the worst economic times in more than 60 years has got to be the dumbest thing they could imagine doing. At a time when so many businesses are fighting for every last dollar, the NBA players and owners are giving back money to their season-ticket holders -- their die-hard fans -- and saying we don't want it. Put that money back in your pockets for now, and when we decide to start playing again, think about whether we are worthy of your investment.

The priorities and sensibilities of the owners and players exemplify an arrogance that now threatens the future of their business. But the players and owners don't see it that way. They are too focused on viewing their relationship as a divorce rather than a marriage.

Someday the owners and players are going to view this argument the way millions of people around the world view it today. At that time in the distant future, when it will be far too late, everyone involved is going to feel regret for his role in a mess that -- given the economic environment and the pessimistic mood of the country -- threatens to become worse than the Tim Donaghy scandal, the 2004 brawl in Detroit and the 1998-99 lockout combined. This breakdown was not set off by the union's legal maneuverings on Monday, and it didn't happen with commissioner David Stern's recent ultimatum. It goes beyond the lockout of July 1 or the launching of negotiations more than two years ago.

It goes back to when the losses were starting to pile up among the smaller-market franchises, as they realized they were being outspent by the deeper-pocketed teams. If Jerry Buss, Jim Dolan and other big-market owners had been willing to share their revenues earlier and more comprehensively for the greater health of the league, could the division among owners have been headed off?

Or look at it from the other side of the owners' room. If so many of these small-market owners had operated their teams more wisely and efficiently, might the bigger-market teams have been more willing to share money with them on good faith that they were investing in the health of the league?
And then could the owners together have not inched forward on a few points of contention here and there in order to ensure agreement with the players?

There will come the day when everyone is going to hold himself accountable. How much did union executive director Billy Hunter learn from the lockout of 1998-99? Not enough, it appears, for he failed to organize a system to deal with the crisis in which he and the players now find themselves. Why wasn't every player in the league provided a copy of the final NBA proposal? Why were there so many breakdowns in communication between players and their union representatives?

This will be a subject of enormous dissension and regret moving forward, as scores of players will insist they would have voted in favor of this proposal if presented with the opportunity. As the months pass by and the reality settles in, there will be complaints of how the chain of command broke down and the membership was failed. This is a small union of less than 500 members with equal voting rights, and yet many of them believe they had no say in this decision to file a lawsuit rather than begin the season Dec. 15. The union leadership spent the last two years warning players to save their money, yet the same leadership didn't prepare itself to learn from the mistakes in communication of 13 years ago.

How did Stern lose his ability to reason with Hunter and the players? How is it that a leader who has empowered African-American culture more than any other commissioner (remember the Allen Iverson era when the NBA was accused of being too hip-hop?) is now facing veiled charges of racism and plantation governance?

Over the last decade Stern has seen his relationships with the players suffer, much as his leadership of the owners has suffered. The players appear to view him as some kind of dictator who enforced a dress code and a respect-for-the-game rule, while giving him little credit for raising their average salary to $5 million; he surely played a role in transforming the negative image of NBA players in the 1970s to help them become popular around the world. Yet something went wrong somewhere along the way, and Stern went from being the partner of players (as he was during the era of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird) to being viewed as their dictator. Perhaps this was a natural progression for someone who has been in charge for so long. Someday, in his heart of hearts, he will wonder where it went wrong, and the part he played in this breakdown of negotiations.

The same can be said for the group of powerful agents who encouraged the legal action that was taken by the players Monday. They surely will regret their failure to push for decertification earlier, when there was a stronger chance to save the season. As time goes by and their clients suffer, will these agents be viewed as contributors to the players' suffering? I believe they acted in good faith, as a result of frustration for their clients and themselves. But there may be unexpected consequences for their agenda, and especially for their sense of timing. Someday there is going to be a deal, and it will be very easy for the players to compare the terms of that agreement against the collectively bargained agreement they could have had Monday, in addition to a 72-game season.

Someday, too, the players will regret their moves, step by step along the way. As of this day they view the league's final proposal as an ultimatum. As the years go by, however, they may come to realize that the proposal of a 50-50 split and other concessions was the best offer that Stern could negotiate for them, and that while trying to herd his divided owners he was essentially negotiating on behalf of the players. This statement is going to anger players and agents, but I believe it to be true: I believe Stern wanted sincerely to save the season, and that he marshaled his political capital in forcing owners to put forth a proposal that the players may be able to accept. Everyone knows that many of those owners were not happy with the deal Stern offered.

Imagine the regret so many players will experience 20 years from now. And for what? They had surrendered a lot of money in these negotiations so far, and in the end they refused to accept every last dictate of owners, which is understandable in light of the players' polarization from the owners. In the bigger picture, however, the players' stance does not reconcile with the realities of the time in which they live.

Recently an essay by Etan Thomas posted on ESPN.com chose to compare the plights of the players union with the stand taken by the so-called 99 percent who have formed the "Occupy" movement on Wall Street and other locations around the world. I have enormous respect for Thomas, a sensitive poet who is serving his union's executive board for no pay because he believes in the principle. This is why I could not believe how out of touch he was to view the mission of his union as having anything at all in common with the movement to Occupy Wall Street. How in the imagination of any reasonable person could a player in the highest-paid league in the history of mankind begin to compare the terms of this $4 billion negotiation against the people who are unable to feed their families, who have lost their homes to foreclosure and who believe they have been neglected by employers and government?

If someone as smart and sensitive as Etan Thomas cannot recognize the great fortune that has placed him among the elite 1 percent, and how very little the rest of the world will sympathize with his cause, then what hope is there for any common sense to prevail amid this senselessness? He and the players talk about principle, but what will they be saying about the high price of that principle 20 years from now?

Here is the fundamental problem, and I believe 99 percent of you will agree with me: The owners and players share too much in common. People on each side of the table believe absolutely that they are in the right, that they won't be dictated to, and that they would rather see no season in 2011-12 than to surrender to their partners-turned-enemies.

The result is that they are all doomed to regret their role in what has happened. Because someday they're going to think about why they got into this business. The owners bought into the league because they love sports, and the players have always played because they love to play. That love is what brought them together, and now look at the harm they're doing to the thing they love most.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/ian_thomsen/11/14/nba.players.disband/index.html#ixzz1dkLL4Gf1

[baseline bum]

The agents and leaders of the players union should've pursued this route earlier but I still think the owners are going to "win", the only questions are by how much and when. Fuck this shit and there better be a god damn discount on NBA2k12 :depressed

LOL, I think I'll pick it up when it's $15 at the new year.

[ElNono]

This was an epic fail on both sides... owners thought they would squeeze the players until paychecks started to disappear, thinking players would pressure the union on a full vote. They miscalculated greatly the leverage from agents, and the fact that the union put rank and file in the negotiating table so they could see first hand the rape that was being offered.

On the union side, Hunter thought that after showing unity and standing together, once games would start getting canceled, owners would soften up. He completely miscalculated the hard line in negotiations with treats and ultimatums.

And so here we are probably about 5 months too late.

[baseline bum]

And so here we are probably about 5 months too late.

You don't think all the concessions they made over the entire period will help them in the lawsuit?

[ElNono]

You don't think all the concessions they made over the entire period will help them in the lawsuit?

I do. At least to parry the bad-faith allegations from the league. But they've been 'negotiating' with concessions for 2 full years. Starting this shit now pretty much guarantees both a lost season and substantial fan apathy.

On top of both sides losing on money and "system issues", they've lost on leadership and image.

[baseline bum]

I do. At least to parry the bad-faith allegations from the league. But they've been 'negotiating' with concessions for 2 full years. Starting this shit now pretty much guarantees both a lost season and substantial fan apathy.

On top of both sides losing on money and "system issues", they've lost on leadership and image.

The fans are always going to be apathetic about young black millionaires.

[DPG21920]

Only because the average fan buys into everything Stern says which is damn sad.

[ElNono]

The fans are always going to be apathetic about young black millionaires.

y u hatin' dawg :lol

[Nathan89]

They were seeking to be guaranteed a profit regardless of how poorly they managed their businesses.

Shame on the owners for seeking profit by reducing cost. What kind of business is this.

[Mel_13]

Shame on the owners for seeking profit by reducing cost. What kind of business is this.

reading comprehension issues?

[ElNono]

:lol

[ElNono]

:lmao

[Nathan89]

The deal-breakers were "system issues". Those are things that would allow small market teams to be competitive, rather than allowing a few teams to dominate by unlimited spending. Stern insists that allowing all teams to be competitive is best for the health of the league. The bastard.

All over the country, more people blame the players than the owners. Except here. Buncha people got spoiled watching Tim Duncan carry a budget-payroll team. Well there's not likely to be another Tim coming our way. If the players get what they want, you can all get used to watching your team play .500 ball and make first-round exits. But, hey, you can keep up the perennial bitching about how the team never signs any big-name free agents. That's the one thing that won't change.

It's been proven money is not an advantage. The fact that the last 5 champions have been tax payers is pure coincidence.

[ElNono]

tbh, these kind of posts just goes to show the kind of misinformation going around out there...

[DPG21920]

It's alarming. I always thought that manipulation through media was a myth, but Nathan proves it can happen and its really scary.

[Nathan89]

reading comprehension issues?

TBH, I finished reading your comment after I posted.

Anyways a substantial reduction of cost was needed and considering they were agreeing on 50/50 the players agreed on that somewhat.

[Mr. Body]

It's alarming. I always thought that manipulation through media was a myth, but Nathan proves it can happen and its really scary.

Seriously? You just have to take a look at Fox News to see what manipulation through the media does to general discourse. They've perfected it.

[Giuseppe]

Seriously? You just have to take a look at Fox News to see what manipulation through the media does to general discourse. They've perfected it.

Body, gettin' his crock of shit on.

[Nathan89]

I guess money isn't an advantage:rolleyes

[Mr. Body]

Body, gettin' his crock of shit on.

lol. Dude, seriously, sucking Rupert Murdoch's traitorous cock? Really?

[ElNono]

Players did agree on 50/50... not somewhat. The financials were pretty much worked out: owners get $3 billion give back for the duration of the agreement. The thing is, for that kind of concession you would think they would be flexible with the system.

[Giuseppe]

I guess money isn't an advantage:rolleyes

Pierce backin' away from Artest doesn't hurt an iota.

tee, hee.

[Nathan89]

I wonder if this money not being advantage is common throughout other sports.

brb...checking the mlb

[Giuseppe]

lol. Dude, seriously, sucking Rupert Murdoch's traitorous cock? Really?

Just tend your crock of shit, Body.

[Nathan89]

Players did agree on 50/50... not somewhat. The financials were pretty much worked out: owners get $3 billion give back for the duration of the agreement. The thing is, for that kind of concession you would think they would be flexible with the system.

I was trying say they at least somewhat agreed on the reasons for a 50/50. Thus they agreed to it.

[DPG21920]

I find it hilarious how Stern says "we were very close and the players decided to blow it up".

:lol didn't Stern say that if they didn't accept this offer there was no more negotiating and they were going to get a worse offer?

Couldn't have been that close if that was the case. Close isn't good enough either per Stern. It was accept this deal or go way backwards. By his comments there was no more room to move forward so how were they close if the deal wasn't acceptable and he said that if it wasn't there would be no more forward negotiating?

[ElNono]

I was trying say they at least somewhat agreed on the reasons for a 50/50. Thus they agreed to it.

So players agreed to reduce costs for the owners... because I would've sworn you just posted:

"Shame on the owners for seeking profit by reducing cost."

Here's a hint: you don't always get everything you want in a two-way negotiation.

[SequSpur]

It's sad but really, I don't give a fuck. I wish that I could see Tim Duncan play another year because that dude is all class....

Not like these other fucking assholes like Carmelo, Wade, Jason Terry, LeBron, and Bosh. They probably fucked it up for everybody else...

I really do lmao when I see Bonner and Mason standing there with the top dogs of the NBA....Fucking hilarious.

I don't really give a shit anymore, most of the teams were unwatchable and the top teams were full of greedy ass.....you knows......

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Why is that all the top people of the NBPA were sorry ass players?

[DPG21920]

Because the big players don't want the burden of the responsibility & because if you get weaker guys it makes it easier for Hunter/Fisher to control the room (just my 2 cents).

[mavsfan1000]

Yeah Stern fucked it up with his threats.

[SequSpur]

Why is that all the top people of the NBPA were sorry ass players?

yeah, i really think that things would be different if Duncan, Garnett, Bryant, Kidd and Stoudemire were negotiating...

instead you have terry, bonner, fisher and other players like that...shit, they don't command respect from anyone...It would be different if Duncan and Bryant were sitting across the table.....

then to hear terry and billups with their comments...they don't get it...

[Nathan89]

So players agreed to reduce costs for the owners... because I would've sworn you just posted:

"Shame on the owners for seeking profit by reducing cost."

Here's a hint: you don't always get everything you want in a two-way negotiation.

Not sure why you quoted that.

Anyways I do fault the owners for not meeting the players a little more on the system issues.

[DPG21920]

So then you blame the owners for everything then, right? If the player gave way more than they needed to on the money, and the owners didnt give anything really on the system, it's on the owners, correct?

[Nathan89]

No, I said a little more. And "way more" is a stretch.

[Mel_13]

:rollin

Nathan eating his own words and complaining about the taste.

[Mr. Body]

Why is that all the top people of the NBPA were sorry ass players?

Basketball ability doesn't always correspond to business ability?

[Giuseppe]

Basketball ability doesn't always correspond to business ability?

Hussein Obama, exhibit A.

[Nathan89]

:rollin

Nathan eating his own words and complaining about the taste.

No I am not.:rollin

[ElNono]

Why is that all the top people of the NBPA were sorry ass players?

Because the claim always been that it's easier to be a hard-liner if you're one of the top rich guys in the league, and the rank-and-file suffer the most.

So the union decided to fill up the executive comittee with rank-and-file, so they could see first hand the offers and defend their position.

Basically, the union was trying to tame the "look at those greedy players" line a bit.

[ElNono]

Not sure why you quoted that.

Really? :lol

[Mel_13]

No I am not.:rollin

We can see your posts.

[Nathan89]

Really? :lol

Yeah, I didn't contradict myself.

[Birn]

It's been proven money is not an advantage. The fact that the last 5 champions have been tax payers is pure coincidence.

Right on...the idea that the Spurs have always been a low payroll squad is just pure fallacy. We've consistently had a top 10 payroll since DRob retired.

Too bad this season is lost.

Very bad move by the players. Owners are not revising their offer just because there's a frivolous lawsuit filed over alleged anti-trust activity. The players are not restricted to pursuing their careers in Europe, Central America, South America, etc so the idea that the NBA is a monopoly carries a lot less weight when players are going overseas to play ball while at the same time argue anti-trust. The league is not stopping them from pursuing pro careers elsewhere. The last time there was a lockout there wasn't this many overseas options like today.

The Summary Judgment they are seeking has way too many fact issues that can only be resolved by a "trier of fact" i.e. a jury. The only way they can get a favorable ruling on a summary judgment is if there are purely legal issues to resolve. In this case, the NBA has alleged all along that the decertification/disclaimer action is a "sham" designed to try and gain negotiating leverage by using the threat of legal action. That is the key issue to be resolved and that is purely a factual question that can only be resolved by a jury. Before they can even get a judge to rule on the summary judgment they need to first resolve the venue question. Players want to file in Minny or Cali with more liberal leaning judges. NBA has already filed pre-emptive suit in southern NY in anticipation of this litigation. It will take at least a month just to resolve the venue issues if the players want to fight that. If they want to just get right to it in NY then it will take at least a month to get the case heard. Even in the unlikely event that the players prevail, you still then have another month for the owners to pursue their appeal. That's best case scenario. That puts us in mid-January then if it gets resolved at that point you have another month for training camps and free agency. That puts it well into February which is way too late to have a meaningful season.

At that point, the league will go full bore on defending their case and will not only forgo this season but also next season to take the matter to trial and end this anti-trust crap once and for all. That will create valuable precedence for all major sports. The league will not only destroy the players in court but they will make sure that this crap never happens again in any major sport. That will generate incredible leverage for the league moving forward.

The stupidity of the players is beyond reason. The human brain cannot conceive how stupid this move is by the players.

[Birn]

It's been proven money is not an advantage. The fact that the last 5 champions have been tax payers is pure coincidence.


Because the claim always been that it's easier to be a hard-liner if you're one of the top rich guys in the league, and the rank-and-file suffer the most.

So the union decided to fill up the executive comittee with rank-and-file, so they could see first hand the offers and defend their position.

Basically, the union was trying to tame the "look at those greedy players" line a bit.

The main reason the marginal players are in the room is so Billy Hunter and Derek Fisher can control the room instead of a bunch of superstars with egos as big as all outdoors. That's not hard to figure out if you just apply the tiniest bit of critical thinking skills.

[baseline bum]

:cry :cry :cry

[Mel_13]

It's not even worth the effort to mock Birn, much less point out all the factual inaccuracies and logical inconsistencies in his posts.

[ElNono]

It's not even worth the effort to mock Birn, much less point out all the factual inaccuracies and logical inconsistencies in his posts.

Who?

[Mr. Body]

Great. I've been wondering what Birn's been thinking about all this.

[ElNono]

Yeah, I didn't contradict myself.


We can see your posts.

[ElNono]

Great. I've been wondering what Birn's been thinking about all this.

:lol

[ElNono]

Anyways...

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Some agents are discussing the separate filing of an anti-trust suit against NBA on behalf of league's rookie players, sources tell Y!

[baseline bum]

Anyways...

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Some agents are discussing the separate filing of an anti-trust suit against NBA on behalf of league's rookie players, sources tell Y!

Sweet. How cool would that be to see Kyrie Irving bolt Cleveland to join the Heat?

[ElNono]

I thought this was another good read from this morning. This was before the player's decision.

The NBA’s terrible offer, and the Players Association’s response (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-NBA-8217-s-terrible-offer-and-the-Players-?urn=nba-wp10579)

[Nathan89]

Shame on the owners for seeking profit by reducing cost. What kind of business is this.


I was trying say they at least somewhat agreed on the reasons for a 50/50. Thus they agreed to it.

I don't see the contradiction.

[ElNono]

Sweet. How cool would that be to see Kyrie Irving bolt Cleveland to join the Heat?

From that article above, related:

Remember when LeBron James led a terrible Cleveland Cavaliers team to the 2007 NBA Finals while making just a few hundred thousand dollars above what Brian Cardinal (sorry, Brian …) made that season? Remember when Derrick Rose led the Chicago Bulls to the NBA's best record last season and won the NBA MVP? Remember when Kevin Durant led the Oklahoma City Thunder to the conference finals last year, or when Tim Duncan led the San Antonio Spurs to the NBA championship in 1999? Recall Dwyane Wade's Finals brilliance in 2006?

Those were performances compensated with rookie scale contracts. The NBA would like to cut those by 12 percent. Because the untold millions in playoff, All-Star weekend, exposure and ratings revenue of these deals somehow don't offset the million dollars the Orlando Magic had to pay Daniel Orton last year, the NBA would like to cut down.

[objective]

Well, it's on now.

I just hope that the owners wake up and address the true competitive problems. A 12% paycut for the players and the last proposal would have done nothing to stop situations like Rashard, Arenas, Eddy Curry, or sad scenarios like the Pacers where they were stuck for years just waiting out the contracts of guys like Tinsley, Murphy and to a lesser extent Dunleavy.

All that said, I kind of hope the players get what they were fearmongering about for years, the supposed hardline victory-or-death NBA edicts that were on HP a year ago that was linked to earlier in this thread. They can't live with a 12% cut and the other restrictions put on them, I understand that. Principle is truth, practical is just conjecture, I get it . . . but if a season is lost and court cases bogged down and they have to crawl back and accept a nightmare deal . . . then they really won't enjoy what the NBA backed off of from before a single practice was cancelled. And they'll deserve it.

Likewise the owners based on their garbage. They deserve a bad deal after folding so early on guarantees. They already threw out their chances at a better, more competitive league. If that's not important enough, just give the players their system issues and enjoy the 12% in givebacks.

[Nathan89]

Very bad move by the players. Owners are not revising their offer just because there's a frivolous lawsuit filed over alleged anti-trust activity. The players are not restricted to pursuing their careers in Europe, Central America, South America, etc so the idea that the NBA is a monopoly carries a lot less weight when players are going overseas to play ball while at the same time argue anti-trust. The league is not stopping them from pursuing pro careers elsewhere. The last time there was a lockout there wasn't this many overseas options like today.



Just a quote from wikipedia

"Modern competition law has historically evolved on a country level to promote and maintain competition in markets principally within the territorial boundaries of nation-states."

Perhaps the courts won't take into account that the players have options to play elsewhere.

[ElNono]

This isn't Congress. Judges are there to interpret current law, not to write new one. You can't have a union-like system without an union.

That doesn't mean that the union will prevail in their case. But it does mean that you can't have a system with teams colluding (draft), salary-caps, etc without exceptions from anti-trust laws. And judges don't grant those. Congress/laws do.

[Giuseppe]

Judges are there to interpret current law, not to write new one.

El, gettin' his naive on.

Yer cute as a button.

[Bruno]

I'm curious to see owners reaction. They clearly had the feeling to be in the driver seat with Stern leading them to get the deal they want. They are now powerless and they can only wait to see what judges will decide.

Owners best interest should be to re-open negotiations with players. A 50/50 split even with a player friendly system would be a great deal for owners. They should settle for that and enjoy all the money they have taken away from players.

[Spurs Brazil]

A pox on both the NBA's labor houses!
Sympathy is in short supply for either side in this "nuclear winter" of a dispute
Wilbon By Michael Wilbon
ESPN.com

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/wilbon-111114/the-nba-labor-impasse-reached-particularly-objectionable-economy

[benefactor]

Right on...the idea that the Spurs have always been a low payroll squad is just pure fallacy. We've consistently had a top 10 payroll since DRob retired.

Too bad this season is lost.

Very bad move by the players. Owners are not revising their offer just because there's a frivolous lawsuit filed over alleged anti-trust activity. The players are not restricted to pursuing their careers in Europe, Central America, South America, etc so the idea that the NBA is a monopoly carries a lot less weight when players are going overseas to play ball while at the same time argue anti-trust. The league is not stopping them from pursuing pro careers elsewhere. The last time there was a lockout there wasn't this many overseas options like today.

The Summary Judgment they are seeking has way too many fact issues that can only be resolved by a "trier of fact" i.e. a jury. The only way they can get a favorable ruling on a summary judgment is if there are purely legal issues to resolve. In this case, the NBA has alleged all along that the decertification/disclaimer action is a "sham" designed to try and gain negotiating leverage by using the threat of legal action. That is the key issue to be resolved and that is purely a factual question that can only be resolved by a jury. Before they can even get a judge to rule on the summary judgment they need to first resolve the venue question. Players want to file in Minny or Cali with more liberal leaning judges. NBA has already filed pre-emptive suit in southern NY in anticipation of this litigation. It will take at least a month just to resolve the venue issues if the players want to fight that. If they want to just get right to it in NY then it will take at least a month to get the case heard. Even in the unlikely event that the players prevail, you still then have another month for the owners to pursue their appeal. That's best case scenario. That puts us in mid-January then if it gets resolved at that point you have another month for training camps and free agency. That puts it well into February which is way too late to have a meaningful season.

At that point, the league will go full bore on defending their case and will not only forgo this season but also next season to take the matter to trial and end this anti-trust crap once and for all. That will create valuable precedence for all major sports. The league will not only destroy the players in court but they will make sure that this crap never happens again in any major sport. That will generate incredible leverage for the league moving forward.

The stupidity of the players is beyond reason. The human brain cannot conceive how stupid this move is by the players.
http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/didn+t+read+lol+didn+t+read_6a9c64_2096351.gif

[Giuseppe]

"nuclear winter"

Kobe's a trend setter.

He sets trends.

[GSH]

Those were performances compensated with rookie scale contracts. The NBA would like to cut those by 12 percent. Because the untold millions in playoff, All-Star weekend, exposure and ratings revenue of these deals somehow don't offset the million dollars the Orlando Magic had to pay Daniel Orton last year, the NBA would like to cut down.[/I]


You do know that the owners proposed substantial bonuses for high-performing rookies, don't you? Or does that just not fit your narrative? The fact is, giving the entire first round of rookies guaranteed multi-year contracts is a problem. The owners were looking for a way to keep from having to keep paying the busts, and compensate the rookies who perform exceptionally well. If you have a better way of doing that, I'm sure they'd love to hear from you. But don't act like the proposal was just another way of screwing the great players. That's bullshit.

[GSH]

Right on...the idea that the Spurs have always been a low payroll squad is just pure fallacy. We've consistently had a top 10 payroll since DRob retired.




As recently as 2005, the Spurs payroll was 22nd or 23rd in the league. Even you must know that was well after DRob's time. And, yes, Tim carried a budget-payroll team.

After that, the Spurs went through what all non-lux-tax teams go through. Struggling to stay under the tax threshold, while at the same time struggling to hold onto the nucleus of their team. Getting Finley at a bargain basement price (at least for the first couple of years) helped that effort a lot. But then they finally got into salary hell - struggling to try and stay under the tax, and not really able to bring in the one or two extra pieces that would let them go all the way. It's the worst of both worlds, and the Spurs' management walked the tightrope about as well as anyone could.

The answer would be to say "screw profitability" and just spend the lux tax money on free agents. That's the world the players want to live in (of course). But outside of a few big markets, it's financial suicide for an owner. Unfortunatly, there are a lot of dumb shit fans who think it's somehow reasonable for an owner to continue to lose money, in order to put a winning team on their menu.

New York, L.A., and a few others can spend into the tax without losing money. The other teams can't. That makes for a pretty boring league, if you aren't from those cities. The exception has been the Spurs, and that is 100% because of Tim Duncan. Anything else you say about it is some kind of Fantasy Island wish. It doesn't exist in the real world.

[vy65]

Tree of Woj:

NEW YORK – All weekend, Billy Hunter had an eye on the owners’ proposal and an ear on the angry mob of agents and players chasing him with fistfuls of decertification petitions. These were designed to wrest away his power, his influence, his money as the Players Association’s executive director. He had left one of the biggest negotiating sessions of his life on Thursday, and let his players watch him live on television bemoaning that the air inside the five-star hotel conference room was too hot and too cold, too stuffy.

The owners had Hunter beat, had him prepared to take a bad deal and have the players go back to work. Only, David Stern couldn’t stop himself. The owners wouldn’t pull back the press, wouldn’t let themselves be satisfied with emptying the bench and running out the clock on the most lopsided labor victory in the history of major professional sports. The NBA kept pushing and pushing, never truly expecting the players to respond with such ferocity.

As much as anything, the NBA has started down this dark, uncertain path because leadership has been so deplorable. From union officials to agents, from star players to the commissioner’s office to hard-line owners, they’ve all conspired to take a doable deal and push it to a catastrophic brink that will cause irreparable damage to the industry.

Ultimately, Stern has failed to finesse those hard-liners, instead inspiring as much loathing with some owners as he has with players. He can’t sell a fair deal to his hardline owners, which left him unable to sell a one-sided agreement to his players.

After Hunter played the part of the beaten man on Thursday night, he had the sense to realize that the Players Association had slowly, surely become united over the NBA’s bully tactics. Stern and his deputy, Adam Silver, showed an inability to artfully sell the players on why the league believed it could so easily take back $3 billion and so much of their free agency movement. The players weren’t rallying for Hunter, but against Stern and the owners. Threats stacked upon threats, ultimatums on top of ultimatums, and Stern underestimated how much of this fight was truly about those final few small gaps on system issues, and how much more was about a resistance to those strong-arm tactics.

[ Video: After union dissolves, is the NBA season lost? ]

And so Monday afternoon, there was Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant(notes) inside the Ambassador Ballroom of the Westin Times Square. He had been a proponent of fighting through the final issues and reaching a deal, and the momentum was gone to make that happen. Bryant didn’t love this option, and he wasn’t alone.

A source briefed on the meeting said Bryant essentially told those player reps: If we’re going to give up our salaries for a year, you better be in this for the long run. You better be prepared to fight.

Make no mistake: Hunter didn’t sell those players on a long court battle, a possible victory with millions and millions of dollars paid for damages. He sold it as a way to lure the owners back to the table, to do something he had been unwilling to do out of self-interest for the longest time: Create leverage and take the fight to the NBA. He’ll never admit it, but those players didn’t walk out of the room completely believing they had forfeited a year’s salary.

Too many of the player reps didn’t know the difference between a disclaimer of interest, decertification and “Dancing with the Stars” when they walked into that meeting. As it usually goes in these labor talks, whoever gets the players’ ears last can talk them in and out of almost any directive. The agents were locked out, cell phones confiscated at the door, and Hunter had a captive audience with some big fancy antitrust lawyers to make his case. Too many of those player reps are young kids who were given the task as a locker-room punishment, or older guys looking for the free annual meeting in the Caribbean.

Hunter should’ve been out recruiting the best of the best for this labor fight, but why would he want Shane Battier(notes) in that room, challenging him, asking him like he did in June: Why are you still taking a salary when the NFL’s DeMaurice Smith gave up his during the lockout?

Hunter sold a plan that – surprise, surprise – keeps him on his $2.5 million salary, keeps him in charge of the court battle. But most of all, this move gives the NBA a much better chance of selling a judge on Stern’s charges that this was a charade, a phony negotiating tactic.

On a lot of levels, it was a gutsy move for the players. Yet, they wouldn’t have been here so late in November, risking the entire season, had they been fully engaged in this fight for months and had a game plan. Because the star players, the smartest, most capable guys, are not inclined to be active in the union. This is why Hunter could get those player reps in the room on Monday, get an executive committee of too many hand-picked loyalists, and convince them that a disclaimer of interest was a shrewder, swifter way to leveraging the owners into a deal than a hostile decertification by the agents.

[ Related: NBA players react to union’s decision to disband ]

It preserved Hunter’s power, his standing with the attorneys, Jeffrey Kessler and David Boies. No one does self-preservation like Hunter. When I asked executive committee member Keyon Dooling(notes) why the union hadn’t done this in July, when it was already known the NBA would never negotiate a favorable deal with the union, he couldn’t answer the question.

These were the same player reps Hunter convinced to spend hundreds of thousands of the union’s dollars – who knows, maybe more – on legal fees to chase an unfair labor practice case against the NBA. Forget decertification, Hunter told the agents and players. They could file that expensive, time-consuming grievance with the National Labor Relations Board and get back on the floor. The NLRB hasn’t ruled on the case, and never will because Hunter’s disclaimer means the filing has to be dropped.

Lots of billable hours on the backs of the players, and no results. That case was one more decoy to hold off decertification, something that should’ve been done long ago.
Players Association executive director Billy Hunter dissolved the union with the hope it would lure the owners back to the bargaining table.
(Getty Images)

The agents, the players, they deserve the union they have. They needed everything to fight the machinery of the NBA, and they’re still scattered, vulnerable and unsure about what they did. The owners were hoping the Players Association would take this to a general vote on Monday, and half-expected the players would come back to them with amendments on the system issues that could get the deal done.

With the Boston Celtics’ Paul Pierce(notes) as the front man, the agents had planned a hostile decertification with a case filed in San Francisco federal court, sources said. They still expect to go through with it to balance Hunter’s disclaimer of interest.

What’s more, the agents are also considering a lawsuit filed on behalf of the league’s rookies, sources said, citing that the rookies are not yet part of the union, and that they’re ready, willing and able to play in the NBA and have been denied the opportunity. The agents are going to keep filing suits to create chaos and uncertainty in the minds of the NBA owners and hope the threat of potential legal damages will coax them back to the bargaining table. And maybe, just maybe, they’ll go to court, get a lucky bounce and decimate the owners with damages.

[ Yahoo! Sports Radio: Players union takes risky gamble in NBA labor battle ]

So congratulations, Commissioner Stern. Three weeks ago, you were on the cusp of a victory, a full season schedule and a fool-proof economic system to ensure even the league’s biggest buffoons would make money. And now, out of hubris, out of desperation and miscalculation, Stern and the owners have done the unthinkable: Stirred the “Bleep You” gene within the players, and inspired cooperation with the agents .

“These calls have turned into a mutual love-fest,” said one source who was on a conference call with 25 agents on Monday. “The players have somehow inspired a sense of camaraderie among a group of people that hate each other more than Israel and Palestine.”

That’s what happens in these labor disputes: improbable partnerships, agendas blurred and the greater good forever scorned. The players did the right thing on Monday – fighting back against a deal they didn’t believe fair, responding to an ultimatum from Stern that this was the end of negotiations.

History may show that the right thing was done the wrong way, but the consequences are still uncertain.

The season isn’t lost, but, right now, the owners and players are.

“Bluff called,” Milwaukee Bucks center Andrew Bogut(notes) said on Twitter late Monday. “Nobody wins. Reshuffle the deck. Let’s try again.”

Bluff called, but the biggest bluffers – Billy Hunter and David Stern – are still fighting to hold onto power, to control this train careening down the side of a mountain. There are owners and superstar players on the clock now, too. These are supposed to be the guardians of this game, and they’d best start acting on those responsibilities. For now, there’s still a phone call to be made from Stern to Hunter, a deal to be done, before the lawyers file that antitrust suit. Sometime soon, there needs to be real leadership here, someone to rise above the agendas, the acrimony, the personal disdain and do the most noble thing of all: Save the NBA season.

And just maybe, save the sport from itself.

[lefty]

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/480263134/POP2_normal.gif
FakeCoachPop (http://twitter.com/#%21/FakeCoachPop) Gregory Popovich



How did that direct deposit look this morning players?

24 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/FakeCoachPop/status/136477344385875969) [/URL] (http://twitter.com/#)[URL="http://twitter.com/#"] (http://twitter.com/#)

[lefty]

http://a1.twimg.com/profile_images/665396722/images_normal.jpg
basketballtalk (http://twitter.com/#%21/basketballtalk) Kurt Helin



Some players have not felt “in the loop” with union http://dlvr.it/wB7xq (http://t.co/grMmL7zL) #PBT (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23PBT) #NBA (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23NBA)

1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/basketballtalk/status/136483627868491777) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

[Mel_13]

You do know that the owners proposed substantial bonuses for high-performing rookies, don't you? Or does that just not fit your narrative? The fact is, giving the entire first round of rookies guaranteed multi-year contracts is a problem. The owners were looking for a way to keep from having to keep paying the busts, and compensate the rookies who perform exceptionally well. If you have a better way of doing that, I'm sure they'd love to hear from you. But don't act like the proposal was just another way of screwing the great players. That's bullshit.

There were reports of some sort of bonus. The actual proposal from the NBA to the players, however, did not include any such provision. See paragraph 10 of the document linked below. You will see that the 12% pay cut is included, as are reduced pay increases for years 2-4 of rookie contracts. There is no mention of any bonus system.

Sorry if these facts don't fit your narrative.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/nba%20proposal%2011-11-2011.pdf

[ElNono]

You do know that the owners proposed substantial bonuses for high-performing rookies, don't you? Or does that just not fit your narrative? The fact is, giving the entire first round of rookies guaranteed multi-year contracts is a problem. The owners were looking for a way to keep from having to keep paying the busts, and compensate the rookies who perform exceptionally well. If you have a better way of doing that, I'm sure they'd love to hear from you. But don't act like the proposal was just another way of screwing the great players. That's bullshit.

What are those 'substantial bonuses'? Do they offset the 12% salary cut?
I did hear that back when Cohen was involved, both sides agreed to have some sort of bonus system for rookies. But unless that ended up on the B-list, it never made it to the owner's proposal.

I don't have a narrative. I quoted an article. I think the point made is valid, but feel free to disagree.

[baseline bum]

You do know that the owners proposed substantial bonuses for high-performing rookies, don't you? Or does that just not fit your narrative? The fact is, giving the entire first round of rookies guaranteed multi-year contracts is a problem. The owners were looking for a way to keep from having to keep paying the busts, and compensate the rookies who perform exceptionally well. If you have a better way of doing that, I'm sure they'd love to hear from you. But don't act like the proposal was just another way of screwing the great players. That's bullshit.

:lmao

The rookie scale is already ridiculously owner-friendly. Only two years are guaranteed and are for significantly less than MLE for even the #1 pick, and the values paid out slide down pretty quickly as you march down to pick #30. Then the drafting team has an option on each of years 3 and 4 and rights to match any contract in year 5. What a load of crap you're spewing.

[GSH]

There were reports of some sort of bonus. The actual proposal from the NBA to the players, however, did not include any such provision. See paragraph 10 of the document linked below. You will see that the 12% pay cut is included, as are reduced pay increases for years 2-4 of rookie contracts. There is no mention of any bonus system.

Sorry if these facts don't fit your narrative.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/nba%20proposal%2011-11-2011.pdf

That's a summary. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about it, if you really believe that every detail of the deal can be found in a two-page large font document - but it's not the entire deal. For instance - the summary also doesn't go into detail about how "designated players" will be handled. But they clearly exist, because they are referenced a couple of times in the summary. I know that you know what a designated player is. Where do you think that the details about how they are handled are, since they aren't in the summary? Do you think there might be other, more detailed documents, besides the summary? Maybe... maybe the intent was to totally leave the bonuses for top rookies out. I don't think so. But neither of us knows for certain, because all we have seen is a summary.

Stern is a master of media manipulation. But so is Hunter, and so is USA Today, and the NY Times. They tell you what they want you to know, and leave out what they don't want you to know. All of them.

The main focus of the owners' "system" demands, is to keep them from being on the hook for long contracts with players who won't or can't perform. (Jackie Butler leaps to mind here.) I don't think you will find an owner in the group who would not be happy to pay more than rookie scale for Derrick Rose. Jon Brockman... not so much.

And, for the record, there would still have been some details to be hammered out in the deal, had the players at least been allowed to vote on it. (Call it negotiation, or something else.)

[baseline bum]

2 years is a long contract?

[GSH]

What are those 'substantial bonuses'? Do they offset the 12% salary cut?
I did hear that back when Cohen was involved, both sides agreed to have some sort of bonus system for rookies. But unless that ended up on the B-list, it never made it to the owner's proposal.

I don't have a narrative. I quoted an article. I think the point made is valid, but feel free to disagree.

Your point is valid, but it's only half the story. The rookie scale is stupid for players like Blake Griffen and Derrick Rose. But it's also stupid for players like Jon Brockman (and lots of others) who never see a minute of NBA playing time, but were good enough in college to take a flyer on.

Honestly - you don't believe that any owner would object to paying more for Rose or Griffen, do you? They may be capitalists, but they aren't animals, and they aren't stupid. Just as honestly - would you want to give a multi-year, multi million-dollar contract to Jon Brockman, or a bunch of other rookies, just because they went in the first round? Somebody has to go in the 16-30 slots.

Do I think the owners have enjoyed getting cheap talent out of the rookie scale? Damn betcha. But I also think they have hated writing those big checks to the busts. If you have a perfect solution, you should package it and sell it.

Don't forget that teams like Portland and OKC, who stockpile picks, would be instantly out of business. Every time you try and draw up a solution, you see some major holes in it.

[lefty]

Some players have not felt “in the loop” with union (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/15/some-players-have-not-felt-%e2%80%9cin-the-loop%e2%80%9d-with-union/)

Kurt Helin (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/author/kurthelin/)
Nov 15, 2011, 11:38 AM EST

1 Comment (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/15/some-players-have-not-felt-%e2%80%9cin-the-loop%e2%80%9d-with-union/#comments)

http://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/boston-celtics-glen-davis-right-grabs-the-ball-after-colliding-with-san-antonio-spurs-antonio-mcdyess-during-the-second-half-of-an-nba-basketball-game-thursday-march-31-2011-in.jpeg?w=320 AP When NBA union director Billy Hunter asked for a show of hands in a New York hotel Wednesday it was unanimous. All the guys in the room backed the idea of the union filing a “disclaimer of interest” and taking the fight to the courts (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/14/players-vote-to-reject-offer-disband-union-season-likely-doomed/).
But for some rank and file players who would rather just get back on the court, they don’t feel heard in all this.
Take what Glen Davis (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1383/glen-davis) told the Boston Herald (http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/celtics/index.php/2011/11/14/big-baby-everyone-has-to-stop-sticking-their-chests-out/). The Celtics (well, free agent) forward speaks for others.

“I don’t think I’ve been kept in the loop as far as what’s going on and how things are going on,” he said. “I want to be kept in the loop, but when I say that, they say, well, come to the meetings.
“It’s not just Paul (Pierce, Celtics team rep) making that decision,” said Davis. “It’s also Derek (Fisher) and Billy Hunter. I talk to players, but my friends are guys like Paul and (Kevin Garnett (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/354/kevin-garnett)) – guys who are in a different stage of their careers. I don’t talk to a lot of the guys who are more in my stage, like Carl Landry (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1407/carl-landry) and DeJuan Blair (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1598/dejuan-blair).”
On the other coast, Kings forward DeMarcus Cousins (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1715/demarcus-cousins) was frustrated as well, as are a number of younger players, he told the Sacramento Bee (http://www.sacbee.com/2011/11/15/4054952/kings-cousins-says-hes-frustrated.html#mi_rss=Kings/NBA).

“Some of the young players I talked to, it’s not about the money. We just want to go out there and play ball,” Cousins said. “For me, it’s knocking off time for me to be improving as a player. This whole situation is really not helping out us younger players.”
With 450 members the players union — well, trade association now — is not going to be able to keep everyone happy. Some guys care and seek out the information, others stand back and let others take the lead. Not everyone is going to seek out the information on where things stand.
But remember that while the sentiment in that New York hotel conference room was unanimous, it is not across the full width of the NBA.

[Giuseppe]

^Then they should walk away from the union. Nobody is forcing them to stay.

[GSH]

2 years is a long contract?

It is if you're shelling out that kind of money for Lazar Hayward, or J.R. Giddens, or a load of others that I could think of.

After the first 15 (and sometimes even including them) it's like flipping coins for a million dollars a throw. I can't imagine why they wouldn't want to play that game, can you?

[baseline bum]

Just as honestly - would you want to give a multi-year, multi million-dollar contract to Jon Brockman, or a bunch of other rookies, just because they went in the first round? Somebody has to go in the 16-30 slots.

:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_final_draft/2009

Jon Brockman went in the second round (pick 38, 2009) and thus his team was under no obligation whatsoever to guarantee him a cent!

[baseline bum]

Hayward played about as well as Jon Brockman and was paid the same (except Brockman got his money on the open market and not from the rookie scale :lol).

[baseline bum]

After the first 15 (and sometimes even including them) it's like flipping coins for a million dollars a throw. I can't imagine why they wouldn't want to play that game, can you?

A million bucks a throw is really cheap when have a good shot to completely lock down a quality player like Danny Granger, Hakim Warrick, Nate Robinson, Jarrett Jack, Luther Head, Linus Kleiza, David Lee, Rajon Rondo, Kyle Lowry, Shannon Brown, Jordan Farmar, Nick Young, Marco Belinelli, Jared Dudley, Wilson Chandler, Rudy Ferndandez, Aaron Brooks, Aaron Afflalo, Tiago Splitter, Roy Hibbert, JaVale McGee, JJ Hickson, Ryan Anderson, Serge Ibaka, Nicolas Batum, George Hill, Darrell Arthur, Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson, Jeff Teague, Eric Maynor, Darren Collison, Omri Casspi, Rodrigue Beabois, Taj Gibson, Toney Douglas, Eric Bledsoe, or James Anderson.

And you seriously underrate the worth of young draft picks. Ian Mahinmi was the definition of complete bust and yet the Spurs still picked up a team option on him in year 3 for that ungodly sum of $1 million.

[TimmehC]

Not that it matters now, but LOL at who Bonner's alternate as player rep for the Spurs was.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:s3rcAY_MozYJ:www.nbpa.org/player-representatives+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[baseline bum]

Not that it matters now, but LOL at who Bonner's alternate as player rep for the Spurs was.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:s3rcAY_MozYJ:www.nbpa.org/player-representatives+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

:lol

[benefactor]

Not that it matters now, but LOL at who Bonner's alternate as player rep for the Spurs was.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:s3rcAY_MozYJ:www.nbpa.org/player-representatives+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
God help us.

[ElNono]

Your point is valid, but it's only half the story. The rookie scale is stupid for players like Blake Griffen and Derrick Rose. But it's also stupid for players like Jon Brockman (and lots of others) who never see a minute of NBA playing time, but were good enough in college to take a flyer on.

There's always lemon players in the first round. But the non-lemons makes franchises quite a lot of dough, and overall very likely substantially more than whatever the owners pay for the duration of lemon guys (which is no more than a 2 year deal under the rookie scale). And don't even get me started on the fact that owners don't even have to bid for these perceived talents, or these lemons would really cost a lot more money.

I like the bonus proposal if it were to be there. I also think the rookie scale, when compared to what the league pays for talent in general, is a bit low, but it's debatable.

A 12% pay cut across the board though is pushing your luck. And I think these are the kind of squeezes for petty money in the grand scheme of things that derailed negotiations.

[Mel_13]

That's a summary. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about it, if you really believe that every detail of the deal can be found in a two-page large font document - but it's not the entire deal. For instance - the summary also doesn't go into detail about how "designated players" will be handled. But they clearly exist, because they are referenced a couple of times in the summary. I know that you know what a designated player is. Where do you think that the details about how they are handled are, since they aren't in the summary? Do you think there might be other, more detailed documents, besides the summary? Maybe... maybe the intent was to totally leave the bonuses for top rookies out. I don't think so. But neither of us knows for certain, because all we have seen is a summary.

Stern is a master of media manipulation. But so is Hunter, and so is USA Today, and the NY Times. They tell you what they want you to know, and leave out what they don't want you to know. All of them.

The main focus of the owners' "system" demands, is to keep them from being on the hook for long contracts with players who won't or can't perform. (Jackie Butler leaps to mind here.) I don't think you will find an owner in the group who would not be happy to pay more than rookie scale for Derrick Rose. Jon Brockman... not so much.

And, for the record, there would still have been some details to be hammered out in the deal, had the players at least been allowed to vote on it. (Call it negotiation, or something else.)

classic

[Mel_13]

It is if you're shelling out that kind of money for Lazar Hayward, or J.R. Giddens, or a load of others that I could think of.

After the first 15 (and sometimes even including them) it's like flipping coins for a million dollars a throw. I can't imagine why they wouldn't want to play that game, can you?

If they didn't think the player was worth the 2yr/2M, they didn't have to sign him.

[eric365]

Billy Hunter sold the players on a plan that keeps him relevant and keeps him on his $2.5 million salary to be in charge of the court battle.

Keeping Hunter also gives the NBA a better probability of convincing a judge that the players are participating in a phony negotiating tactic.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216560/Hunters_Chosen_Plan_Keeps_Him_Relevant_Preserves_H is_$25M_Salary

[Giuseppe]

I read this morning they're gonna sit down again on Friday and resume negotiations.

[vy65]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7238744

[DesignatedT]

The NBA formally notified teams Tuesday that it has canceled games through Dec. 15, a source told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard.

[Giuseppe]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7238744

An aside here:::

Dick Vitale (http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7237392)ESPN's Dick Vitale says no other coach will get close to the career wins record that Duke's Mike Krzyzewski is about to break.---

Nice of Media to once again cite (right out in the open in broad daylight) the college career wins record of it's basketball interest. Once Knight took out Dean Smith Media had to scour Junior High School coaches to find somebody to top Knight.

tee, hee.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

This disclaimer of interest is a very bad move from the players. They will not win these court battles, especially not in New York, where it WILL take place, no matter how much the players would want it to be in California. The judge will be convinced that this is bargaining in bad faith, it's painfully obvious that it is a negotiating tactic, especially if Billy Hunter is still in fact relevant, which he is. The judge will not be convinced that the players are truly willing to engage in a two to three year long court battle, which they are not.

This isn't a bold move from the players, it isn't victory in any way shape or form. They are burning daylight under a magnifying glass of stupidity. They will bow down to the owner's absurd demands, although extremely unfair, they should have just accepted inevitable defeat.

[Bruno]

http://twitter.com/#!/KBergCBS



Ken Berger
Billy Hunter says antitrust complaint will be filed tonight in N. District of California vs. NBA.


Carmelo Anthony and Chauncey Billups are the biggest names among plaintiffs in California case.

[DPG21920]

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Boies said a second separate lawsuit is being filed on behalf of three NBA players in Minnesota.

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Atty David Boies: players claim league "boycott" once collective bargaining ended. "Based on boycott, that's a violation of antitrust law."


daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Union/TA will file antitrust complaint tonight against NBA in Northern Dist of California. Plaintiffs: Melo, Billups, Durant, Powe, Leonard

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Wow, so they are going to do it in California after all..

[ElNono]

Too early to know yet... League tried to do venue shopping by filing in NY early. Lawsuits could be merged or not, and venues changed.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

I'm almost positive the venue will not be in California.

-___-;

[DPG21920]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7238744

My goodness, Simmons is dumb.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

I don't feel like actually listening, so if you would, can you tell some of the idiotic things he has been saying?

[Mel_13]

I don't feel like actually listening, so if you would, can you tell some of the idiotic things he has been saying?

Seconded.

[DPG21920]

:lol It's hard to put it into words, but basically he makes wild arguments for the owners and shows a real lack of understanding of the situation and what was offered. He basically argues that the players should be held to a higher moral standard and scoff players who get overpaid since it hurts the league in the long run and that the owners are forced to give out the terrible contracts they do. He argues that the Travis Outlaws of the world hurt teams more than the Rashard Lewis's as well.

[wildbill2u]

I read somewhere today that the average salary of NBA players is $5 million plus. which is more than the average salaraies of NFL and MLB players combined.

So a professional athlete in the NBA would be foolish to kill that golden goose, even for one year.

[DPG21920]

Oh, look, you solved the lockout :lol

[ace3g]

MrMichaelLee Michael Lee
Plaintiffs named on players' lawsuit filed against NBA: Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Kevin Durant, Leon Powe & Kawhi Leonard

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Kawhi Leonard? Must be representing the rookies then. That's pretty good I suppose..

[Nathan89]

Really Kawhi? You never even played.

[dbestpro]

Really Kawhi? You never even played.

Not the best of starts as a Spur. I wonder if he will get booed the first time he hits the floor.

[DPG21920]

The owners won't let him. . .

[DPG21920]

Not the best of starts as a Spur. I wonder if he will get booed the first time he hits the floor.

:lol Why

[Dex]

Really Kawhi? You never even played.

Kawhi left college early to play professional ball. He could be playing right now, but instead he is sitting at home and hasn't seen a single dime from the NBA. IMO, he (and rookies like him) have just as much beef with this situation as the high-paid vets, and they deserve to be represented.

[Nathan89]

Not the best of starts as a Spur. I wonder if he will get booed the first time he hits the floor.

Not if he's replacing Rj.

[ElNono]

Good read about the legal skirmish from an actual lawyer:

Untangling Monday's NBA lockout web (http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/munson-111114/questions-answers-nba-players-announcing-disclaim-their-union)

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Does anyone here really think the Owners will fold before it really gets ugly?

[DPG21920]

Nope. I think they have been ready for this. There goal is to punish the players, not to have a season. I think they drag it out as long as they can. They know fans will come back eventually. The philosophy still stands: Owners can financially withstand this longer than players. They will bankrupt these guys to get what they want.

[DPG21920]

Imo.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

I think you're spot on.

& if the players know this, why even go through with this whole fiasco?

[baseline bum]

Not the best of starts as a Spur. I wonder if he will get booed the first time he hits the floor.

Well, this is the city that booed a guy for being Chinese.