Resuming CBA talks

[DPG21920]

Because it's not guaranteed the owners will win. There is potential for them to come out way ahead. The deal was so bad it was worth it to them.

[Dex]

I think you're spot on.

& if the players know this, why even go through with this whole fiasco?

Two possibilities in my opinion:

1) They think this will scare the owners and force them back to the negotiating table, which is foolhardy. Like DPG said, owners were probably already expecting this tactic, and if what they report about profits are true, some will actually stand to SAVE money by not having a season.

2) They are doing this out of principle to not appear like fools, but as Richard Feynman once said, "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself"

[Nathan89]

Does anyone here really think the Owners will fold before it really gets ugly?

Nope, I thought the players would cave. I thought the players would reject the offer and then league would throw them a bone to seal the deal (obviously not sticking to their 47% threat).

Did the players even allow the owners enough time to see what direction they were going after the rejection? Either the 47% direction, same deal, or something a little better.

[Dex]

I'd just like to go on record as stating that this whole thing is, in the wise words of the great Tim Duncan, retarded.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

To be honest, I don't think the owners expected the players to do such a thing. David Stern was pretty vocal about how upset he and the owners were, claiming that the move was irresponsible, and even taking a stab at thier intelligence by saying "The NBPA in all it's infinite wisdom.."

I'm not saying that the Owners are becoming intimidated and will return to the table. Just an observation.

Also, I know the deal was bad enough to move in the direction of a disclaimer, but it just seems so foolish to me. I don't see how they can win.

[spurs10]

With regard to current options, with the union dissolved can the lawyers for the NBA contact the lawyers for the Player's association and cut a deal? If so, would all anti-trust lawsuits be dropped, the union re-forms, and there would be a new CBA? I've read about everything published on the subject, but I'm unsure if the union re-forms if the lawyers get a deal. I also realize this isn't likely to happen until a judge rules on whether the anti-trust lawsuits are legitimate.

[The Truth #6]

Why is that all the top people of the NBPA were sorry ass players?

I think the Union was trying to get smart players involved in decision making, or at least well educated.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

So sucking at basketball and being smart go hand in hand? :P

[ElNono]

1) They think this will scare the owners and force them back to the negotiating table, which is foolhardy.

Why is it foolhardy? Worked for the NFL union a year ago.


Did the players even allow the owners enough time to see what direction they were going after the rejection?

You mean besides the owners saying they were done negotiating after extending the offer?

[ElNono]

To be honest, I don't think the owners expected the players to do such a thing.

Of course not. Not this late.

Whoever thinks the owners rather be in this position than playing games after giving up a few system issues is really delusional, IMO.

[ElNono]

With regard to current options, with the union dissolved can the lawyers for the NBA contact the lawyers for the Player's association and cut a deal? If so, would all anti-trust lawsuits be dropped, the union re-forms, and there would be a new CBA? I've read about everything published on the subject, but I'm unsure if the union re-forms if the lawyers get a deal. I also realize this isn't likely to happen until a judge rules on whether the anti-trust lawsuits are legitimate.

What happens now is the NBA doesn't negotiate with the union anymore (because there's no union). Now the negotiations would be worked out as a settlement to the lawsuits. Both parties on the lawsuit will sit down and try to settle the lawsuit. It just won't happen until there's a few court rulings first though. Both sides want to see if they can obtain some ruling (the players looking for a declaration of the lockout being illegal, the NBA looking for a declaration that the lockout is legal) that would trigger the other side to sit down and settle for what they want.

[yavozerb]

Because it's not guaranteed the owners will win. There is potential for them to come out way ahead. The deal was so bad it was worth it to them.

Really? So instead of getting just a bad deal, now the players have a chance of losing there yearly salary and getting a bad deal...:lol

[Nathan89]

You mean besides the owners saying they were done negotiating after extending the offer?

So did they say that before or after the offer got rejected? I don't care what they said before the offer was rejected. It would have been wise to see what the owners were going to do. Or use disclaiming as a threat back to the owners with a deadline.

[spurs10]

What happens now is the NBA doesn't negotiate with the union anymore (because there's no union). Now the negotiations would be worked out as a settlement to the lawsuits. Both parties on the lawsuit will sit down and try to settle the lawsuit. It just won't happen until there's a few court rulings first though. Both sides want to see if they can obtain some ruling (the players looking for a declaration of the lockout being illegal, the NBA looking for a declaration that the lockout is legal) that would trigger the other side to sit down and settle for what they want.
Got it. Just unsure if the union re-forms and they draft a new CBA after there's a settlement in place. I thought the NFL's union got back together after a deal was cut. Mainly wonder if a new CBA will need to be in place when they start playing again...??

[ElNono]

So did they say that before or after the offer got rejected? I don't care what they said before the offer was rejected. It would have been wise to see what the owners were going to do. Or use disclaiming as a threat back to the owners with a deadline.

You might not care, but when one of the sides goes publicly saying:
"There comes a time when you have to be through negotiating," Stern said, "and we are."

That doesn't really lend itself to the belief that there will be further negotiations, or negotiations that would yield an agreement, seeing that the ultimatum basically dictated that the next offer would be a worse offer.

And BTW, now that this is headed to the courts, I'm sure there a few words Stern wished he didn't say. Same for Hunter.

[ElNono]

Got it. Just unsure if the union re-forms and they draft a new CBA after there's a settlement in place. I thought the NFL's union got back together after a deal was cut. Mainly wonder if a new CBA will need to be in place when they start playing again...??

I would assume that any settlement would include a new "claim of interest" to reconstitute the union since the new CBA needs to be made with the union in place. Which is another reason why a "disclaimer of interest" was the right move. If the union would've decertified, then gaining certification again would've entailed waiting for the NLRB to approve it, thus more delays.

[spurs10]

I would assume that any settlement would include a new "claim of interest" to reconstitute the union since the new CBA needs to be made with the union in place. Which is another reason why a "disclaimer of interest" was the right move. If the union would've decertified, then gaining certification again would've entailed waiting for the NLRB to approve it, thus more delays.
Thanks. Makes sense to me, hope they can reach a settlement...
:flag:

[Nathan89]

You might not care, but when one of the sides goes publicly saying:
"There comes a time when you have to be through negotiating," Stern said, "and we are."

That doesn't really lend itself to the belief that there will be further negotiations, or negotiations that would yield an agreement, seeing that the ultimatum basically dictated that the next offer would be a worse offer.

And BTW, now that this is headed to the courts, I'm sure there a few words Stern wished he didn't say. Same for Hunter.

Just think they should have waited a day to see true direction.

[DPG21920]

Really? So instead of getting just a bad deal, now the players have a chance of losing there yearly salary and getting a bad deal...:lol

They also have a chance to force the owners to negotiate a better deal along with the potential to win massive damages and a great deal if it goes to trial.

[DPG21920]

Just think they should have waited a day to see true direction.

You do realize this is exactly the mind set that got them in trouble. There are only so many times you could hope for the best after getting burned. This was the latest they could wait.

[Dex]

Why is it foolhardy? Worked for the NFL union a year ago.



First, the NFL owners actually gave a shit if there was a season. The NBA owners, as far as anyone can tell, do not. And Stern was threatening Hunter with this fact seven months ago.

The only way this draws a settlement is if the NBA players can actually draw up enough evidence to prove that, but the NBA owners will just counter that the Player's Union was just planning to disclaim all along (since Hunter basically told Stern as much, which is why the NBA already filed a lawsuit in NY).

Secondly, the players aren't filing for a settlement or injunction of the lockout; they are suing for damages caused by a "boycott". Instead of trying to save the game, they are just going after the owner's pockets. Not sure if that will be more or less effective, but on the surface, it seems like just a scare tactic.

I hope I'm wrong, but I see this just turning into legal actions to prove whose threats were more unlawful before it turns into any more negotiations. And we all know how fast the court's clocks tick; that is to say, not very.

[ChuckD]

And BTW, now that this is headed to the courts, I'm sure there a few words Stern wished he didn't say. Same for Hunter.

The dumbest thing the NBA did was to prohibit players from playing in the d-league if they have any team affiliation. That pretty much proves that they are a monopoly and can limit where players play within the US.

[ElNono]

Just think they should have waited a day to see true direction.

Frankly, the NBA can still pick up the phone before any lawsuit is filed.

But I think at this stage is pretty clear Stern himself might not even have full control of the owners. One day we'll find out how much trapped Stern himself was in all this.

[ChumpDumper]

The dumbest thing the NBA did was to prohibit players from playing in the d-league if they have any team affiliation. That pretty much proves that they are a monopoly and can limit where players play within the US.There's one other minor league that starts in January. Definitely small time, but it has been around for four years.

[DPG21920]

Frankly, the NBA can still pick up the phone before any lawsuit is filed.

But I think at this stage is pretty clear Stern himself might not even have full control of the owners. One day we'll find out how much trapped Stern himself was in all this.

:lol Besides the other point I made about Stern being a hypocrite by saying "we were so close and they blow it up", why is he acting like they still cannot negotiate? If he was serious about negotiating and them being close there is absolutely nothing stopping him from calling.

[ElNono]

First, the NFL owners actually gave a shit if there was a season. The NBA owners, as far as anyone can tell, do not. And Stern was threatening Hunter with this fact seven months ago.

The only way this draws a settlement is if the NBA players can actually draw up enough evidence to prove that, but the NBA owners will just counter that the Player's Union was just planning to disclaim all along (since Hunter basically told Stern as much, which is why the NBA already filed a lawsuit in NY).

Secondly, the players aren't filing for a settlement or injunction of the lockout; they are suing for damages caused by a "boycott". Instead of trying to save the game, they are just going after the owner's pockets. Not sure if that will be more or less effective, but on the surface, it seems like just a scare tactic.

I hope I'm wrong, but I see this just turning into legal actions to prove whose threats were more unlawful before it turns into any more negotiations. And we all know how fast the court's clocks tick; that is to say, not very.

Well, I disagree that the NFL owners were more interested in having a season than the NBA. I actually think the union moving to decertify quickly pointed more towards the union having such interest.

Ultimately, it wasn't the injunction (something the NBAPA lawyers are NOT seeking) what forced the NFL owners to negotiate, but the real treat of a judge establishing what the settlement terms would be if the parties didn't sit down and negotiate.

And ultimately, the end game in this case is no different. What it's starting to look like the legal strategy here for the union is a claim under "group boycott", which is penalized under anti-trust laws and carries treble damages (treble damages meaning it that any damages awarded get multiplied by 3).

The league will try to claim and prove that the union always wanted to decertify, but really, these 4 months of negotiating where the union kept giving concessions make it difficult to believe, and worst of all, if they don't get that ruling, they're going to be in a very, very weak position (due to the claims above).

I would adventure a settlement will shortly follow after that decision, whichever way it goes.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol Besides the other point I made about Stern being a hypocrite by saying "we were so close and they blow it up", why is he acting like they still cannot negotiate? If he was serious about negotiating and them being close there is absolutely nothing stopping him from calling.Who would he call?

[ElNono]

Who would he call?

He can call Hunter. Hunter isn't the union president anymore, but he is the trade association president. He technically wouldn't be negotiating exclusively, but he's the trade representative of the players that would be filing the lawsuits.

Once the lawsuits are filed though, he would need to negotiate through the lawyers for the players presenting the suit, IIRC.

[DPG21920]

Hunter. From my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) with the disclaimer vs decertification, Hunter can still be involved.

Also, with this move, are they not trying to force the owners to negotiate(which is part of their hopes) so someone has to be available, no?

[ChumpDumper]

Then why dissolve the union at all?

[DPG21920]

Because it allows them to file suit.

[ChumpDumper]

Because it allows them to file suit.OK. With lawsuits, I'm going to say contact is unlikely.

[DPG21920]

Maybe, but from my understanding (again correct me if I am wrong) that part of this process is to force owners to the negotiating table before it gets dragged into long drawn out litigation.

[ChumpDumper]

Maybe, but from my understanding (again correct me if I am wrong) that part of this process is to force owners to the negotiating table before it gets dragged into long drawn out litigation.I believe you, but I could see the owners' actually wanting to go to court.

[DPG21920]

I agree, I think they have planned this all out. I'm just saying that it's funny to me that Stern says all of this hypocritical stuff and no one (media) calls him on it when speaking with him.

[ElNono]

Phonecall didn't happen. If it was going to happen it should've happened already. Moot point now.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Why do people keep saying that they believe the owners planned this all along?
That is just not true, the sole reason for Stern not making a 3am drunk phone call
to Hunter, is an issue of straight pride now. The players filed suit, they didn't have
a vote, they just put their hands in the air, and lifted their middle fingers.

There was no premeditated plans, it is just a bunch of greedy businessmen, negotiating
with a bunch of money hungry players, this is what happens when children don't get
their way, they throw a hissy fit.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Maybe, but from my understanding (again correct me if I am wrong) that part of this process is to force owners to the negotiating table before it gets dragged into long drawn out litigation.

I really don't think it's in the players favor if the judge recognizes this 'part of the process' as a simple negotiating tactic to force the owners. Which it is, of course. Which the judge WILL recognize. Which the players know. They don't actually want it to go to court IMO

[ElNono]

Quotes from Boies in this piece:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AhhQCQJUSuTZuMXtQWWC_2m8vLYF?slug=ap-nbalabor

[benefactor]

“We haven’t seen Mr. Boies’ complaint yet, but it’s a shame that the players have chosen to litigate instead of negotiate,” NBA spokesman Tim Frank said in a statement.
It's hard to believe that anyone can say this with a straight face.

And :lol at the comments section. No one seems to give a shit about the logistics of the situation. They just want the players to say yes so they can be entertained.




















































































































































































































































































































































































America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.

[yavozerb]

They also have a chance to force the owners to negotiate a better deal along with the potential to win massive damages and a great deal if it goes to trial.

Better deal, possibly, great deal, no way in hell...A great deal at this point for the players is getting the BRI back to 52%.

[TDMVPDPOY]

seems like some players have filed a anti-trust lawsuit....lol why is kawhi leonard in it? his not officially a nba player?

[ChuckD]

seems like some players have filed a anti-trust lawsuit....lol why is kawhi leonard in it? his not officially a nba player?

Kawhi is being enjoined from playing basketball like any other player. In addition, he's being kept from playing in the d-league by being a draftee last year. Dumb move by the owners.

[TDMVPDPOY]

this lock out hurts alot of players who are earning anything below MLE...

splitter :(

[Bruno]

I think with what players' lawyer is saying is 100% truth: “If you’re in a poker game, and you run a bluff, and the bluff works, you’re a hero. If someone calls your bluff, you lose. I think the owners overplayed their hand,”

The whole talk about owners being ready to lose a season is just a bluff. Owners aren't in good situation right now and they didn't want to see it ending with a trial. They are losing money day after day and they have no guarantee at all that the new system will be better than the previous one. A judge can very well decide that the NBA will resume with the previous CBA or without a CBA to ensure a free market system.

[DPG21920]

Better deal, possibly, great deal, no way in hell...A great deal at this point for the players is getting the BRI back to 52%.


I think with what players' lawyer is saying is 100% truth: “If you’re in a poker game, and you run a bluff, and the bluff works, you’re a hero. If someone calls your bluff, you lose. I think the owners overplayed their hand,”

The whole talk about owners being ready to lose a season is just a bluff. Owners aren't in good situation right now and they didn't want to see it ending with a trial. They are losing money day after day and they have no guarantee at all that the new system will be better than the previous one. A judge can very well decide that the NBA will resume with the previous CBA or without a CBA to ensure a free market system.

See this Yavo

[Brazil]

I think with what players' lawyer is saying is 100% truth: “If you’re in a poker game, and you run a bluff, and the bluff works, you’re a hero. If someone calls your bluff, you lose. I think the owners overplayed their hand,”

The whole talk about owners being ready to lose a season is just a bluff. Owners aren't in good situation right now and they didn't want to see it ending with a trial. They are losing money day after day and they have no guarantee at all that the new system will be better than the previous one. A judge can very well decide that the NBA will resume with the previous CBA or without a CBA to ensure a free market system.

In my mind but maybe I'm wrong players situation is much worse than the owners. Owners were prepared to that not sure the players were.

You are saying they are loosing money but are they really ? Is it that significant compared to players ? I don't know exactly what are their contractual obligations right now but they are not paying anymore salaries and if the reports are accurate a lot of them were loosing money anyway.

So I'm not sure they are not ready to loose an entire season tbh.

Somebody knows what are their remaining financial obligations right now ?
Arenas ? Franchise staff ?

BTW what is the situation for the coaches ? Is Pop not receiving anymore salary right now ?

[TimmehC]

If the season is lost, the owners have to pay back the league's TV money. That's not chump change.

[Mr. Body]

I agree. This is a disaster for the owners. Maybe it comes out in their favor after a long time in the courts, but there was no reason for this to ever get to this point. The owners kept pushing for bad deals, thinking the players would bite because there were no alternatives. Stern looks pretty weak right now.

[Giuseppe]

If the season is lost, the owners have to pay back the league's TV money. That's not chump change.

Indeed:::"the league is in the middle of a eight-year, $7.44 billion television contract with ABC/ESPN"

[mavsfan1000]

Yep the owners were bluffing. They thought the players would fall for it. But the players are for real. They are willing to lose a season to get the upper hand on the owners.

[velik_m]

I wonder how the cities which are left with now empty arenas will react?

[yavozerb]

See this Yavo

DP, Bruno also mentioned at one time we would have NBA playing again on dec. 15th....If the players believe this process is starting over they are very mistaken. The players are still gonna lose alot, at this point its all about keeping there heads above water so they dont killed with this new deal.

[ElNono]

If the players believe this process is starting over they are very mistaken.

The league could quickly find itself having 6 billion reasons to go back and recapitulate. That's the player's move. It probably won't start things over, but it will very likely allow them to get the system concessions they were seeking, and a BRI over 50% isn't out of the question either.

It's definitely not a sure thing, but it's the only way for them to gain any leverage.

[Mark in Austin]

The whole "owners are prepared to lose a season" argument always rang untrue to me. Everybody has been repeating it because... the owners said it was true?

Horseshit. If they were struggling to carry their debt loads WITH the income from gates & TV, lets see them do it w/o that money.

[DesignatedT]

So is this thing dragging into court no matter what now? I kind of stopped paying attention after the players rejected that last deal.

Or is there any chance the 2 sides work on another deal before it goes that far?

[Mr. Body]

So is this thing dragging into court no matter what now? I kind of stopped paying attention after the players rejected that last deal.

Or is there any chance the 2 sides work on another deal before it goes that far?

It seems like there is still a chance. The Players are posturing with these moves to get the League to actually negotiate better offers instead of the crap on a shingle they've been offering. IANAL, so I don't know. But I believe the League could see the crap stretched out before them and put in a better offer. Y'know, like they should have been doing.

[ElNono]

Lawsuits have been filed, AFAIK. That means any negotiation would have to be through lawyers now.

[ElNono]

From Stern's last comments, league strategy now is to stall lawsuits as long as they can. Problem is that they're not in control anymore.

[DesignatedT]

Right. Obviously there is nobody for the league to negotiate with anymore, correct?

If the owners did want to make a better offer though, is that even possible? Could they offer a better deal to the players, say next week and let them vote on it? Or does it have to be resolved in court now?

[baseline bum]

It seems like there is still a chance. The Players are posturing with these moves to get the League to actually negotiate better offers instead of the crap on a shingle they've been offering. IANAL, so I don't know. But I believe the League could see the crap stretched out before them and put in a better offer. Y'know, like they should have been doing.

So you're telling me there's a chance?

yCFB2akLh4s

[cantthinkofanything]

Better deal, possibly, great deal, no way in hell...A great deal at this point for the players is getting the BRI back to 52%.

Making a minimum of $473,604 to play basketball sounds like a pretty great deal to me.

[Mr. Body]

Hunter had a comment where he said the phone was still open to Stern's calls. But I don't know at what point the sides are basically done and have to do this through courts. I may not understand it correctly, but I think the sides can still do something, but it does look bleak.

[Mr. Body]

Making a minimum of $473,604 to play basketball sounds like a pretty great deal to me.

That's great. The league will be calling around for scab players pretty soon.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Making a minimum of $473,604 to play basketball sounds like a pretty great deal to me.

Nah, fixing the market so you can artificially control supply costs to a percentage of gross is a fantabulous deal. I wish every industry was like that. I would get into the restaurant business in a heartbeat. We will just control the meat market so that I am guaranteed to make money.

[Bruno]

In my mind but maybe I'm wrong players situation is much worse than the owners. Owners were prepared to that not sure the players were.

That was owners main argument: players will suffer more than us form a lost season.

Players could have ended the lockout by accepting owners' offer last Monday but they decided to take the risk of losing the season instead of that. Maybe it's just a bluff, but they took that risk.

I would say that players could afford losing a season:
- Every single player with a few brain cells has save some money for his future.
- Players have received a check from the NBA last November 1st through the escrow system. They got $188M (about a tenth of their last year salary).
- If a player is desperate for money, he can go in Europe where he would get few $100K.



You are saying they are loosing money but are they really ? Is it that significant compared to players ? I don't know exactly what are their contractual obligations right now but they are not paying anymore salaries and if the reports are accurate a lot of them were loosing money anyway.

So I'm not sure they are not ready to loose an entire season tbh.

Somebody knows what are their remaining financial obligations right now ?
Arenas ? Franchise staff ?

BTW what is the situation for the coaches ? Is Pop not receiving anymore salary right now ?

Players have no incomes but have too no cost while owners have no incomes but they have too costs. They must pay teams staff and most of the teams have loans to pay. Some teams manage too their arena and they are hurt in their area too.

Some teams staff members have been waived but the vast majority are still employed but have taken a pay-cut.

[ElNono]

Right. Obviously there is nobody for the league to negotiate with anymore, correct?

If the owners did want to make a better offer though, is that even possible? Could they offer a better deal to the players, say next week and let them vote on it? Or does it have to be resolved in court now?

Sure they can talk. They just have to talk through the lawyers and settle the lawsuits by agreeing to a deal.

[ElNono]

This is just like any other lawsuit. If both sides want to sit down, talk and settle, they can dismiss the lawsuits and that's the end of that.

It would just be a little different from collective bargaining.

[vy65]

Sure they can talk. They just have to talk through the lawyers and settle the lawsuits by agreeing to a deal.

Nvm, just saw your second post . . .

[lmbebo]

They can negotiate still I believe. They have 44? days now.

Doesnt sound like much will be happening soon from what I heard at work . As someone who works for nba headquarters.

[weebo]

When things of this nature happen, both sides are a little right and a little wrong.
Both sides, regardless of what your opinions are, really let this thing get out of hand. It sucks really. And we should all really hate this because we as fans only want basketball. Owners and players, their greed and arrogance will be the root cause of the end of the NBA as we know it.

[Dex]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/16/sports/basketball/nba-players-file-antitrust-suit-against-the-league.html


In Attempt to Force Talks, N.B.A. Players File Antitrust Suit
By HOWARD BECK
Published: November 15, 2011

Locked-out players began their legal assault on the N.B.A. on Tuesday, filing an antitrust lawsuit that demands an end to what they contend is an illegal boycott of the work force. They are seeking monetary damages for lost wages, which would be tripled under antitrust law.

Resolution of the lawsuit could take months or years, but the immediate goal is to push N.B.A. owners back to the bargaining table and salvage some part of the 2011-12 season.

The lawsuit was filed in federal court in the Northern District of California by the lawyers David Boies and Jonathan Schiller, who were retained by the players on Monday when they disbanded their union.

“I hope it is not necessary to litigate this all the way,” Boies said during a news conference at the Harlem headquarters of the union, the National Basketball Players Association. “I hope at some point the N.B.A. and the teams will have enough concern for basketball fans that they will resolve these issues and allow the players to start playing.”

The lawsuit was filed in collaboration with the N.B.P.A., which continues to operate as a trade association under the leadership of Billy Hunter, its executive director. The lead plaintiffs listed are Carmelo Anthony and Chauncey Billups of the Knicks, Kevin Durant of the Oklahoma City Thunder, the free agent Leon Powe and the San Antonio Spurs rookie Kawhi Leonard. Those players were chosen because they represent a wide range of classes within the association.

An N.B.A. spokesman said the league had not seen the complaint, but added: “It’s a shame that the players have chosen to litigate instead of negotiate. They warned us from the early days of these negotiations that they would sue us if we didn’t satisfy them at the bargaining table and they appear to have followed through on their threats.”

A separate, similar lawsuit was filed earlier Tuesday in Minnesota, by a law firm representing the free agent Caron Butler, Ben Gordon of the Detroit Pistons, Anthony Tolliver of the Minnesota Timberwolves and Derrick Williams, a Timberwolves draft pick. That lawsuit asks for both monetary damages and a permanent injunction.

Both lawsuits were filed in circuits that are considered to be player-friendly. The N.B.A. pre-emptively sued the players union in August, in the Southern District of New York, in the Second Circuit, which is viewed as more owner-friendly.

More lawsuits are expected now that the collective bargaining process has collapsed, and the players are no longer protected by a union. A separate faction of players, who had been pushing for decertification of the union before it disbanded, may pursue its own lawsuit. Another suit could be filed on behalf of rookies, who could be considered a separate class since they have never had a contract or paid union dues.

Eventually, all the lawsuits will have to be combined, with the players and the owners each arguing to have the case heard in the jurisdiction it favors. That could create a further delay, although Boies said he hoped it would not slow down the process. He said he hoped for a summary judgment on the damages before the season is canceled.

Labor talks broke down last Thursday, with the league saying it had made its final offer and Commissioner David Stern saying that negotiations were over. Stern asked the players to approve the league’s proposal, or have it replaced by one less favorable to them. The players rejected the ultimatum and instead disbanded the union.

Boies said Stern’s ultimatum “turned out to be a mistake.”

“If you’re in a poker game and you run a bluff and the bluff works, you’re a hero,” Boies said. “If somebody calls your bluff, you lose. I think the owners overplayed their hand.”

The N.B.A. players are not asking for a preliminary injunction, as the N.F.L. players did in challenging a lockout last spring. Boies, who represented the N.F.L. in that case, said that an injunction “would be very difficult to get” and that pursuing it “would delay the case perhaps for many months.”

Instead, the players are seeking summary judgment for monetary damages.

“We believe the right way to address the players’ damages is to ask the owners to pay for it,” Boies said. “And since under the antitrust laws they have to pay three times damages, that’s a pretty good incentive to end” the lockout.

Coincidentally, Tuesday was the day that N.B.A. players missed their first paychecks, which would have totaled in excess of $170 million. Anthony, the All-Star forward, would have received a check for $1.5 million.

While the lawyers wrestle in court, the players and the owners could conceivably return to the bargaining table, just as the N.F.L. players and owners did last spring while their litigation proceeded. There would be limits on what issues could be negotiated in the absence of a union, which would have to be reconstituted to complete a labor deal.

Stern, however, has repeatedly declared that the league will not negotiate beyond the offer it made last week: a 50-50 split of revenues, combined with a matrix of new restrictions on free agency and player payrolls, which the players oppose. Stern said last week that if the players rejected that proposal, the N.B.A. would replace it with an offer based on a 47 percent share for players and a hard salary cap.

In an interview with ESPN on Monday, Stern said, “Now there’s no one to negotiate with, because the union’s not there, and we won’t be doing anything soon with respect to their lawyers, whoever their lawyers may be.”

[ElNono]

When things of this nature happen, both sides are a little right and a little wrong.
Both sides, regardless of what your opinions are, really let this thing get out of hand. It sucks really. And we should all really hate this because we as fans only want basketball. Owners and players, their greed and arrogance will be the root cause of the end of the NBA as we know it.

No doubt. Leadership failed tremendously on both sides. They were both in charge of negotiating a deal, and failed miserably at it.

[Big P]

Someone's bluff got called....we will find out who that is soon enough.

[SequSpur]

Don't the owners want decertification? I thought I read most of the owners want 47% and a hard cap.

That makes the most sense to me. Having a tax system in place does nothing. It never was a barrier before.

It seems that most teams were losing tons of money anyway. Running a business to make payroll. Not sure if any of you have run a business before but that's not a business, that's stupid.

Also, I think the Lebron show last summer pissed everybody off.

I got a call from the Spurs today with an update on the lockout. It's funny, they insist there will be a season. They don't want to refund my money until February. I wonder when fans will start suing?

If I call and say refund my money, why wouldn't they do it immediately?

[Mr. Body]

it seems that most teams were losing tons of money anyway.

lawls.

[Bruno]

Players complaint filed in California:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/anthony-complaint-main.pdf

Today is going to be an important day with owners phone call meeting. Owners will have to decide if they are ready to lose the season.
If hard liners won, I guess their next step will be to try to lengthen as much as possible the juridical process. Their goal will be to discourage players and force them to accept the "reset" offer.
If players friendly owners can get a majority, they will offer to players lawyers a new improved CBA offer. Their goal will be to save the biggest chunk of this season.
So far, hard liners have had the majority and it limits a lot any kind of optimism about this situation.

[ElNono]

Well, the claims are what was expected. The NBA will probably start by denying the allegations, trying to move the case to NY, and above all disclaiming class action status per the WalMart case not long ago.

Players next move will likely be request for a summary judgment.

[vy65]

Which wal-mart case?

[ElNono]

Which wal-mart case?

Walmart vs Dukes (http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/10-277.pdf)

[ElNono]

Carmelo Anthony(notes), Kevin Durant(notes), Chauncey Billups(notes), Kawhi Leonard(notes) and Leon Powe(notes) were listed as plaintiffs in the suit filed in Oakland, Calif. The initial case management conference for the suit is scheduled for Feb. 29, 2012, but can be moved up, court officials said.

Caron Butler(notes), Anthony Tolliver(notes), Ben Gordon(notes) and Derrick Williams(notes) are listed as plaintiffs in a second suit filed against the league in Minneapolis. The players are seeking “treble” damages in the suits, triple the $2 billion they could have made with a full season.

[yavozerb]

Carmelo Anthony(notes), Kevin Durant(notes), Chauncey Billups(notes), Kawhi Leonard(notes) and Leon Powe(notes) were listed as plaintiffs in the suit filed in Oakland, Calif. The initial case management conference for the suit is scheduled for Feb. 29, 2012, but can be moved up, court officials said.

Caron Butler(notes), Anthony Tolliver(notes), Ben Gordon(notes) and Derrick Williams(notes) are listed as plaintiffs in a second suit filed against the league in Minneapolis. The players are seeking “treble” damages in the suits, triple the $2 billion they could have made with a full season.

:lmao, You can blame the players or the owners for this holdout, but in truth its the lawyers "agents" who have been running the show for quite sometime.

[Dex]

The owners aren't going to cave. This shit is going to court, and it's going to take forrrrrever. And the way the players are approaching it, I don't see how it helps get players in the arenas.

Say the owners let it go to the court, then lose and have to pay the players 6 billion dollars. Does anyone really think they are going to want to negotiate and give the players a better deal then?

[ElNono]

Say the owners let it go to the court, then lose and have to pay the players 6 billion dollars. Does anyone really think they are going to want to negotiate and give the players a better deal then?

The case will likely be settled way before then. Owners are not paying $6 billion over "system issues" for "league parity". The players already agreed to give them back $3 billion and basically cover their losses.

[ElNono]

You're nuts if you think the owners are not going to pick up the phone if they find themselves with even the remote possibility of a $6 billion axe over their heads.

[benefactor]

You're nuts if you think the owners are not going to pick up the phone if they find themselves with even the remote possibility of a $6 billion axe over their heads.
Indeed. There will be a mutiny against Stern before that happens.

[Giuseppe]

It's mercenary as Hell, but, I frankly can't wait for the situation to move past the point of no return and the season cancelled. I don't trust the players to stand fast in the ranks.

[Dex]

You're nuts if you think the owners are not going to pick up the phone if they find themselves with even the remote possibility of a $6 billion axe over their heads.

I'm no lawyer (obviously), but at what point can the owners pull out if things actually go into litigation? Would they have to settle before the case actually went to trial? Or can they wait until it is obvious they are on the losing side of things (assuming they would be), and then try to negotiate a settlement to bail themselves out?

And if that were the case, wouldn't the players have to agree to settle as well? Would they be willing to do that if they were obviously going to win their case?

Maybe that's what the players are hoping for....that the owners don't even want to let it go to court to find out.

[ElNono]

I'm no lawyer (obviously), but at what point can the owners pull out if things actually go into litigation? Would they have to settle before the case actually went to trial? Or can they wait until it is obvious they are on the losing side of things (assuming they would be), and then try to negotiate a settlement to bail themselves out?

And if that were the case, wouldn't the players have to agree to settle as well? Would they be willing to do that if they were obviously going to win their case?

Maybe that's what the players are hoping for....that the owners don't even want to let it go to court to find out.

I would adventure that certain ruling(s) would make both sides more willing to negotiate. There will be a bunch of those throughout these proceedings. There's going to be a ruling on the NBA NY case, the venue, wether the class action is certified or not, wether to merge the lawsuits, etc etc etc. All those could be challenged at some point. You also have to remember that judges sometimes will push for conciliatory meetings or settlement discussions before moving to a full jury trial.

As far as a settlement, if one is arrived, then obviously both parties have agreed to it, and that can happen at any time. I would also expect that the players would rather get to work under a cozy CBA than get a one time $6 billion payment that would destroy the league.

It's very, very early in this whole thing to try to determine an outcome or who the prevailing party is going to be. There's a lot of uncertainty this early. As chips start to fall, things will become more clear.

[Giuseppe]

El & Kori's nephew acting all studious & accomplished.

Gosh.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lmao, You can blame the players or the owners for this holdout, but in truth its the lawyers "agents" who have been running the show for quite sometime.

I don't see how you figure that. You always sue for the maximum when trying to create leverage. They are suing for recompense tot he max the law allows. That idea would come from any attorney.

[ElNono]

El & Kori's nephew acting all studious & accomplished.

Gosh.

Sue me













:lol

[Duncan2177]

Source: League briefs owners by phone

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7247758/nba-lockout-league-briefs-owners-situation-conference-call-source-says

[benefactor]

The players walked out of negotiations on Monday, rejecting the league's offer of a 50-50 split of basketball-related income and announcing it would take steps to disband the union and file antitrust lawsuits against the league.
That's not why they walked away. Misleading information like this is why fans are so pissed at the players.

[DJ Mbenga]

ill admit im a bit worried. i wont panic until worjrhowski says as well the season looks lost. if he does it its confirmed. michael jordan is the guy that grew the nba, and he may very well be the guy that kills it.

[ElNono]

IMO season is over with... question is if it's going to be more than one...

[Dex]

Sources had previously said that a hard-line group of owners was hoping the players rejected the deal. The source said that after Thursday's call, that was still the case.

"No one wants to miss the season, but about half of the owners are willing to miss the season if it means fighting for a better deal," the source said.

Fucking ay. Even after all of this, the owners are still going to try to see how they can turn this to their benefit and screw the players even further than they have already tried. If reports like this are accurate, they aren't going to cave....it sounds like this is the position they wanted to be in in the first place.

It's reports like this that lead me to believe that the season is already lost. The owners don't care. The players don't care. They are too busy trying to prove each other wrong to give a shit about the fans, the game, or anything else.

[DPG21920]

Again, I don't see how you can blame the players? They do care. They tried their hardest (to their own financial detriment) to truly negotiate with the owners. Just because they didn't eat an absolute shit sandwich doesn't mean they don't care.

[Jacob1983]

So who is the favorite to win in 2012-2013? Bobcats, Wolves, Pacers, or Grizzlies?

[Dex]

Again, I don't see how you can blame the players? They do care. They tried their hardest (to their own financial detriment) to truly negotiate with the owners. Just because they didn't eat an absolute shit sandwich doesn't mean they don't care.

Dammit DPG, this is America. I reserve the right to be angry and unreasonable. :bang

OK, maybe the players do care, but I still think both sides could've done a better job at handling this whole deal. Hunter was too worried about self-preservation to decertify. If the players were going to disclaim or decert, they should've done it in July. I know they were trying to negotiate with the owners (to their credit), but doing it now makes it even more likely that a 2011-2012 season won't exist. And there is still a good chance it will be in vain, with the players ending up with a deal that is even worse than the one they could've taken last Monday.

[ElNono]

What's ridiculous is that it took this long for this option, I agree. But even more ridiculous is that they were so close that it wasn't about the money anymore. Players even conceded cutting down the years on deals, one of the major fixes for poor owner's decisions. The lux tax was really the factor, and owners could've backed down a bit. It's stupid too, because I feel that if they move it to a 2:1, we might be playing basketall right now. And if the players would've taken that offer, the owners could push for a harder cap the next CBA.

But now it's all in the air.

[DPG21920]

While that seems to be the biggest beef against the players (waiting so long to decert or disclaim) I find it difficult to be angry at them because it came from a good place. They thought they could (naively) get the owners to negotiate but the owners flat out didn't care. While somewhat foolish on the players part, they tried.

[Giuseppe]

What's ridiculous is that it took this long for this option, I agree. But even more ridiculous is that they were so close that it wasn't about the money anymore. Players even conceded cutting down the years on deals, one of the major fixes for poor owner's decisions. The lux tax was really the factor, and owners could've backed down a bit. It's stupid too, because I feel that if they move it to a 2:1, we might be playing basketall right now. And if the players would've taken that offer, the owners could push for a harder cap the next CBA.

But now it's all in the air.

It was never close.

The owners want structural change. The players tried to placate them with cyclical maneuvers changing about the BRI from 53-47 to 50-50. It was an exercise in futility. The owners are after vengeance and the vehicle they've chosen is structure via crushing player freedom. It's not about a million here on the MLE, or, a year there on contract length. BS. Anything that brings about a chilling affect to movement and freedom is poison to the players. You can't permit even a small amount of it thru the door.

The players could give them 60-40 on the BRI if the owners would let the status quo reign on everything else and the owners would tell them to fuck off. They'd take the 60-40 and give nary an inch on the structure.

[lmbebo]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2011-11-17/Ex-NBA-union-executive-says-players-should-have-taken-deal/51275552/1

Ex-NBA union executive says players should have taken deal
By J. Michael Falgoust, USA TODAY Updated 3h 23m ago
Comments 13 Reprints & Permissions
The rift between NBA owners and players isn't so much about the split of revenue in the next collective bargaining agreement but about the system to deliver it as the lockout enters Day 141.


By Richard Drew, AP
Charles Grantham, left, former executive director of the NBA players union, had his share of dealings over the years with NBA Commissioner David Stern, left.
Enlarge
By Richard Drew, AP
Charles Grantham, left, former executive director of the NBA players union, had his share of dealings over the years with NBA Commissioner David Stern, left.
Players have come down 7% from the last CBA, roughly $280 million-plus a year in salaries, by agreeing to a 50-50 split of d basketball-related income. Their goal now is to force owners to tender an offer that is less restrictive towards free agents and mid-level players.
Charles Grantham worked for the players union from 1978-95, the last seven as executive director. He saw the league go through expansion and explosive growth in revenue and was part of four CBAs from 1980-95 but resigned over differences with the executive committee and then-union president Buck Williams.
"Today, we spend too much time in the court, with too many lawyers. … Instead of having 10 lawyers and an economist you should probably have 10 CPAs or forensic accountants and two lawyers," said Grantham, a guest lecturer on professional sports negotiations at Seton Hall's Stillman School of Business. "In this case, (the players are) looking to use the law to gain leverage, to get a better business deal, when, in fact, the negotiations that should be taking place is with regard to how you divide that (every) $100."
Thursday on CNN, all-time NBA scoring leader Kareem Abdul-Jabbar took issue with the players' position, as well. If they had accepted the owners' latest offer, a 72-game season could have tipped off Dec. 15.
"I think they've gone a little bit too far. … I think the deal was reasonable," Abdul-Jabbar said. "They might lose 5% or 6% of their salaries, but in today's economic times, everybody's dealing with something like that. So for them to decide that they're going to, like, not play the season if necessary — 100% of nothing is still nothing.
"They're going to lose a year's pay. It doesn't make any sense."
Asked if the deal would have been accepted if presented to all players for a vote, free agent Shane Battier said: "I talked to a bunch of guys to try to take a pulse … but I don't know."
Grantham seemed to believe they should have.
"My philosophy was to keep the guys working, because they lose income that's not recoverable," he said. "They're employees. They're not partners. … Let's not get this twisted, (players) don't sit in the boardroom."
Overseas option: Bodog.com lists the odds against a game being played by Jan. 1 as 1:3.
With prospects looking bleak, playing abroad is getting reconsidered. San Antonio Spurs guard Manu Ginobili is unsure.
"We field offers every day from teams in Europe, but he's going to definitely wait to see how the collective bargaining negotiations move ahead," said agent Herb Rudoy of Interperformances. "He's made no commitment to go overseas. We've had great offers on the table for months but he's not prepared to make that decision yet."
Miami Heat guard Dwyane Wade said Thursday he has authorized his agent to listen to all viable offers — but he won't sign until all hope for an NBA season has vanished.
"There's a possibility that we're not going to have a season. We've got to see what's out there," Wade, who turns 30 in January, told the Associated Press. "I want to play competitive basketball this year. … I don't have too many years of basketball left."
Spurs forward Tiago Splitter did agree to play for Spanish club Valencia Basket. Phoenix Suns restricted free agent Aaron Brooks agreed to a $2 million-plus deal with Chinese Basketball Association champion Guangdong, The Arizona Republic reported. He can't return to the NBA until his season is done.
Also: NBA Commissioner David Stern had a conference call with the owners Thursday, but the league had no comment about what was discussed.

[Giuseppe]

While that seems to be the biggest beef against the players (waiting so long to decert or disclaim) I find it difficult to be angry at them because it came from a good place. They thought they could (naively) get the owners to negotiate but the owners flat out didn't care. While somewhat foolish on the players part, they tried.

It was pussy though.

The owners, for as much as I detest them and what they're trying to do with the system they're the ones who have been ruthless and effective. The players knew from day one that it was not about BRI, but, yet they still gave away 7 points to the owners because they were afraid to confront the only issue (the system). The players negotiated from the back door in. And the owners let 'em cut their own throats knowing they would take every point and still not grant the players relief.

Afraid to confront reality is what had the players on the banana peel. They seem to have recovered at this point and have stopped the hemorage at 7 points without any ROI, but at least it's stopped.

[Birn]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2011-11-17/Ex-NBA-union-executive-says-players-should-have-taken-deal/51275552/1

Ex-NBA union executive says players should have taken deal
By J. Michael Falgoust, USA TODAY Updated 3h 23m ago
Comments 13 Reprints & Permissions
The rift between NBA owners and players isn't so much about the split of revenue in the next collective bargaining agreement but about the system to deliver it as the lockout enters Day 141.


By Richard Drew, AP
Charles Grantham, left, former executive director of the NBA players union, had his share of dealings over the years with NBA Commissioner David Stern, left.
Enlarge
By Richard Drew, AP
Charles Grantham, left, former executive director of the NBA players union, had his share of dealings over the years with NBA Commissioner David Stern, left.
Players have come down 7% from the last CBA, roughly $280 million-plus a year in salaries, by agreeing to a 50-50 split of d basketball-related income. Their goal now is to force owners to tender an offer that is less restrictive towards free agents and mid-level players.
Charles Grantham worked for the players union from 1978-95, the last seven as executive director. He saw the league go through expansion and explosive growth in revenue and was part of four CBAs from 1980-95 but resigned over differences with the executive committee and then-union president Buck Williams.
"Today, we spend too much time in the court, with too many lawyers. … Instead of having 10 lawyers and an economist you should probably have 10 CPAs or forensic accountants and two lawyers," said Grantham, a guest lecturer on professional sports negotiations at Seton Hall's Stillman School of Business. "In this case, (the players are) looking to use the law to gain leverage, to get a better business deal, when, in fact, the negotiations that should be taking place is with regard to how you divide that (every) $100."
Thursday on CNN, all-time NBA scoring leader Kareem Abdul-Jabbar took issue with the players' position, as well. If they had accepted the owners' latest offer, a 72-game season could have tipped off Dec. 15.
"I think they've gone a little bit too far. … I think the deal was reasonable," Abdul-Jabbar said. "They might lose 5% or 6% of their salaries, but in today's economic times, everybody's dealing with something like that. So for them to decide that they're going to, like, not play the season if necessary — 100% of nothing is still nothing.
"They're going to lose a year's pay. It doesn't make any sense."
Asked if the deal would have been accepted if presented to all players for a vote, free agent Shane Battier said: "I talked to a bunch of guys to try to take a pulse … but I don't know."
Grantham seemed to believe they should have.
"My philosophy was to keep the guys working, because they lose income that's not recoverable," he said. "They're employees. They're not partners. … Let's not get this twisted, (players) don't sit in the boardroom."
Overseas option: Bodog.com lists the odds against a game being played by Jan. 1 as 1:3.
With prospects looking bleak, playing abroad is getting reconsidered. San Antonio Spurs guard Manu Ginobili is unsure.
"We field offers every day from teams in Europe, but he's going to definitely wait to see how the collective bargaining negotiations move ahead," said agent Herb Rudoy of Interperformances. "He's made no commitment to go overseas. We've had great offers on the table for months but he's not prepared to make that decision yet."
Miami Heat guard Dwyane Wade said Thursday he has authorized his agent to listen to all viable offers — but he won't sign until all hope for an NBA season has vanished.
"There's a possibility that we're not going to have a season. We've got to see what's out there," Wade, who turns 30 in January, told the Associated Press. "I want to play competitive basketball this year. … I don't have too many years of basketball left."
Spurs forward Tiago Splitter did agree to play for Spanish club Valencia Basket. Phoenix Suns restricted free agent Aaron Brooks agreed to a $2 million-plus deal with Chinese Basketball Association champion Guangdong, The Arizona Republic reported. He can't return to the NBA until his season is done.
Also: NBA Commissioner David Stern had a conference call with the owners Thursday, but the league had no comment about what was discussed.

Bingo Baby!!! Thanks for sharing.

This is going to go down as one of the absolute stupidest moves by a collective group of individuals in the history of mankind. Somehow, I think that these players really don't believe they will lose the season. They are really that naive. They honestly don't believe they will lose the season. God help those poor men.

If I'm TD or Manu or any other star player making upwards of $10 million, I instruct my agent and player representative long time ago that you take the best deal they offer and let's play ball. There's no way in hell that I'm losing that kind of money.

The only winners in this whole deal are all the lawyers collecting millions of dollars in fees. Heck, the cost to litigate this thing all the way to trial is enough to bankrupt the players association. I guarantee the player agents are all receiving referral fees for pursuing the various cases across the country.What a big waste of money!

The funniest part of all this is the players and their lawyers are trying so hard to win the PR battle. The fact is that nobody cares! The average sports fan doesn't give one rip about "system issues" or "BRI". I guarantee that a trial jury of average people who most likely won't be sports fans will be very reluctant to award serious damages in a case like this where the "victims" are paid tens and hundreds of millions of dollars in salaries. Especially when the jurors will most likely be blue collar workers that don't care about the NBA. The last time a case like this when to trial was back in the '80's when the NFL players sued the NFL and got a favorable verdict from the jury by declaring the NFL an "monopoly" which led to greater free agency and player movement. That was great for the players...however, the jury only awarded damages in the amount of......$1 which were then trebled for a grand total of $3 in damages to the players. The jury saw clearly that the players rejected several proposals that would have paid them more money than any other NFL players in history. The NBA Players are going down this same path. Their case on player movement is very shaky but there's no way a jury is going to award them the $6 billion in damages that their lawyers are promising to them. It's just not going to happen. The owners are actually hoping the players want to go to trial. They know they have nothing to worry about on damages since they presented the players with multiple offers that would make them the highest paid players in all professional sports. The owners are willing to defend it all the way to trial and if a jury says give them more player movement with a 50/50 split then the NBA will just gladly accept it and move on. The players would then lose 2 -3 seasons of lost paychecks for nothing. There's no way it will get that far.

The best way for this matter to be resolved is for both sides sit down and talk it out and get this thing hammered out. You don't need all these dang lawyers and lawsuits. This is all just a silly and expensive tactic by the players to try and gain some leverage. They have no leverage and nobody has bothered to tell them the sad truth.

This really sucks because I love the NBA. This is all on the players.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Birn once again with logical inconsistencies. I fail to see how "its all on the players,' 'they need to sit down and work it out,' and Sterns repeated 'this is our final nonnegotiable offer' make sense to anyone with a shred of intelligence.

I do think that the players have obfuscated reality by focusing on BRI when in reality its a function of "BRI% + increase over BRI percentage due to overcap spending," but your cocksucking of ownership is pretty transparent. Anyone who has read this thread at all knows you are just a partisan dumbass.

[mavsfan1000]

The owners gotta be laughing it up right now. The players are so fucking stupid.

[TDMVPDPOY]

The owners gotta be laughing it up right now. The players are so fucking stupid.

the ones that are stupid are the guys earning or on max contracts who dont wanna take the 20% decrease in their payment, its better then not earning a dime for the season...

hence the guys like rookies and on shitty low paid contracts, i doubt they have a say in any of the issues, but if there is a vote, most likely would be in favor to get the season running....

[spurs10]

I don't think anyone watching 4 billlion dollars going down the drain is "laughing it up."

[ElNono]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2011-11-17/Ex-NBA-union-executive-says-players-should-have-taken-deal/51275552/1

Ex-NBA union executive says players should have taken deal
By J. Michael Falgoust, USA TODAY Updated 3h 23m ago
Comments 13 Reprints & Permissions
The rift between NBA owners and players isn't so much about the split of revenue in the next collective bargaining agreement but about the system to deliver it as the lockout enters Day 141.


By Richard Drew, AP
Charles Grantham, left, former executive director of the NBA players union, had his share of dealings over the years with NBA Commissioner David Stern, left.
Enlarge
By Richard Drew, AP
Charles Grantham, left, former executive director of the NBA players union, had his share of dealings over the years with NBA Commissioner David Stern, left.
Players have come down 7% from the last CBA, roughly $280 million-plus a year in salaries, by agreeing to a 50-50 split of d basketball-related income. Their goal now is to force owners to tender an offer that is less restrictive towards free agents and mid-level players.
Charles Grantham worked for the players union from 1978-95, the last seven as executive director. He saw the league go through expansion and explosive growth in revenue and was part of four CBAs from 1980-95 but resigned over differences with the executive committee and then-union president Buck Williams.
"Today, we spend too much time in the court, with too many lawyers. … Instead of having 10 lawyers and an economist you should probably have 10 CPAs or forensic accountants and two lawyers," said Grantham, a guest lecturer on professional sports negotiations at Seton Hall's Stillman School of Business. "In this case, (the players are) looking to use the law to gain leverage, to get a better business deal, when, in fact, the negotiations that should be taking place is with regard to how you divide that (every) $100."
Thursday on CNN, all-time NBA scoring leader Kareem Abdul-Jabbar took issue with the players' position, as well. If they had accepted the owners' latest offer, a 72-game season could have tipped off Dec. 15.
"I think they've gone a little bit too far. … I think the deal was reasonable," Abdul-Jabbar said. "They might lose 5% or 6% of their salaries, but in today's economic times, everybody's dealing with something like that. So for them to decide that they're going to, like, not play the season if necessary — 100% of nothing is still nothing.
"They're going to lose a year's pay. It doesn't make any sense."
Asked if the deal would have been accepted if presented to all players for a vote, free agent Shane Battier said: "I talked to a bunch of guys to try to take a pulse … but I don't know."
Grantham seemed to believe they should have.
"My philosophy was to keep the guys working, because they lose income that's not recoverable," he said. "They're employees. They're not partners. … Let's not get this twisted, (players) don't sit in the boardroom."
Overseas option: Bodog.com lists the odds against a game being played by Jan. 1 as 1:3.
With prospects looking bleak, playing abroad is getting reconsidered. San Antonio Spurs guard Manu Ginobili is unsure.
"We field offers every day from teams in Europe, but he's going to definitely wait to see how the collective bargaining negotiations move ahead," said agent Herb Rudoy of Interperformances. "He's made no commitment to go overseas. We've had great offers on the table for months but he's not prepared to make that decision yet."
Miami Heat guard Dwyane Wade said Thursday he has authorized his agent to listen to all viable offers — but he won't sign until all hope for an NBA season has vanished.
"There's a possibility that we're not going to have a season. We've got to see what's out there," Wade, who turns 30 in January, told the Associated Press. "I want to play competitive basketball this year. … I don't have too many years of basketball left."
Spurs forward Tiago Splitter did agree to play for Spanish club Valencia Basket. Phoenix Suns restricted free agent Aaron Brooks agreed to a $2 million-plus deal with Chinese Basketball Association champion Guangdong, The Arizona Republic reported. He can't return to the NBA until his season is done.
Also: NBA Commissioner David Stern had a conference call with the owners Thursday, but the league had no comment about what was discussed.

This isn't about the money. The money part was already agreed upon. Which basically undermines his argument entirely.

And :lol @ Birn... Now the owners have the free market you trumpeted all along... why aren't we watching games?

[ElNono]

The owners gotta be laughing it up right now. The players are so fucking stupid.

Not all owners are billionaires... heck... Lebron is worth more than Peter Holt right now... And a bunch of them have loan payments to make...

I don't think either side is terribly happy with this.

[DJ Mbenga]

The owners gotta be laughing it up right now. The players are so fucking stupid.

i dont know about laughing it up, celebrating that they will get to rape the system sure. but at the cost of destroying its momentum. but i think the lockout is happening precisely because of last season. the great markets are good now, and it was because the players dictated their futures. hence we see all of these plantation remarks. minus the hyperbole their points are good, its about getting your employees in check.

[mathbzh]

i dont know about laughing it up, celebrating that they will get to rape the system sure. but at the cost of destroying its momentum.

I wonder how much the owners AND players will lose on the next TV deal...

[Jacob1983]

This lockout could really screw the NBA on tv deals. In a few years, nationally televised games might be on Fuel TV or SPEED. Yep, it could get that bad.

[benefactor]

Bingo Baby!!! Thanks for sharing.

This is going to go down as one of the absolute stupidest moves by a collective group of individuals in the history of mankind. Somehow, I think that these players really don't believe they will lose the season. They are really that naive. They honestly don't believe they will lose the season. God help those poor men.

If I'm TD or Manu or any other star player making upwards of $10 million, I instruct my agent and player representative long time ago that you take the best deal they offer and let's play ball. There's no way in hell that I'm losing that kind of money.

The only winners in this whole deal are all the lawyers collecting millions of dollars in fees. Heck, the cost to litigate this thing all the way to trial is enough to bankrupt the players association. I guarantee the player agents are all receiving referral fees for pursuing the various cases across the country.What a big waste of money!

The funniest part of all this is the players and their lawyers are trying so hard to win the PR battle. The fact is that nobody cares! The average sports fan doesn't give one rip about "system issues" or "BRI". I guarantee that a trial jury of average people who most likely won't be sports fans will be very reluctant to award serious damages in a case like this where the "victims" are paid tens and hundreds of millions of dollars in salaries. Especially when the jurors will most likely be blue collar workers that don't care about the NBA. The last time a case like this when to trial was back in the '80's when the NFL players sued the NFL and got a favorable verdict from the jury by declaring the NFL an "monopoly" which led to greater free agency and player movement. That was great for the players...however, the jury only awarded damages in the amount of......$1 which were then trebled for a grand total of $3 in damages to the players. The jury saw clearly that the players rejected several proposals that would have paid them more money than any other NFL players in history. The NBA Players are going down this same path. Their case on player movement is very shaky but there's no way a jury is going to award them the $6 billion in damages that their lawyers are promising to them. It's just not going to happen. The owners are actually hoping the players want to go to trial. They know they have nothing to worry about on damages since they presented the players with multiple offers that would make them the highest paid players in all professional sports. The owners are willing to defend it all the way to trial and if a jury says give them more player movement with a 50/50 split then the NBA will just gladly accept it and move on. The players would then lose 2 -3 seasons of lost paychecks for nothing. There's no way it will get that far.

The best way for this matter to be resolved is for both sides sit down and talk it out and get this thing hammered out. You don't need all these dang lawyers and lawsuits. This is all just a silly and expensive tactic by the players to try and gain some leverage. They have no leverage and nobody has bothered to tell them the sad truth.

This really sucks because I love the NBA. This is all on the players.
America, eatin' my lunch from a single bowl in my parents basement, where I'm livin'. Happy Birthday, I'm forty-three.

Don't want to waste those precious calories...chewin'. Jesus come move my jaw for me, help me get my sloppy food down my throat.

[Giuseppe]

The funniest part of all this is the players and their lawyers are trying so hard to win the PR battle.

I don't think the players give two shits about the PR battle. We're/fans not part of the equation. & we shouldn't be. We have no monetary stake in it. And everybody knows it.

[buttsR4rebounding]

It seems to me that it will be pretty hard to show the owners weren't negotiating in good faith when their proposal would have still left the players as the highest paid team athletes in the world. It is a percentage higher than either professional sports league that recently went through lockouts--the NHL and the NFL. Plus, a labor union that insists on trying to get a deal that does not allow for the employer to make a reasonable return on investment is short-sighted indeed.

[DPG21920]

Fml

[Giuseppe]

^Stern is on the record as saying "we're done negotiating"

That won't look good in court.

[ElNono]

I haven't read anything written in this thread or the lockout in general, but....

It seems to me that it will be pretty hard to show the owners weren't negotiating in good faith when their proposal would have still left the players as the highest paid team athletes in the world. It is a percentage higher than either professional sports league that recently went through lockouts--the NHL and the NFL. Plus, a labor union that insists on trying to get a deal that does not allow for the employer to make a reasonable return on investment is short-sighted indeed.

[Bruno]

http://twitter.com/#!/WojYahooNBA


One thing seems certain: Stern, owners want to meet with Hunter to negotiate, not anti-trust lawyers. Appears league will wait for call.

For now, owners will review lawsuits, wait for players to miss checks on Dec. 1, sources say. They're still doubting resolve of players.

Owners showing no urgency to return to talks, waiting on Hunter to call Stern, league sources say. No dialogue expected before Thanksgiving.


If owners are waiting December 1st, Christmas games will be canceled. Another high revenue event lost, great...

[Dex]

Am I seeing double!? Four Krustys!?

[ElNono]

Am I seeing double!? Four Krustys!?

:lol

[Bruno]

I wish good luck to judges on that because I don't see how they can come with a fair judgment.

A judge can state that each side has been harsh during this negotiating process. He can conclude that Stern threat of a "reset" offer was illegal. However, I don't see how it will be enough to take side on the lockout issue. The NBA is a so weird system mixing some capitalistic sides with some anti-capitalistic sides that it's impossible to decide who is wrong between players and owners.

[ElNono]

The only thing I didn't particularly like about the actual lawsuit is the lack of references to precedent. That said, it could just be byproduct of the lawsuit being put together hastily. It can always be amended.

[spurs10]

http://twitter.com/#!/WojYahooNBA


If owners are waiting December 1st, Christmas games will be canceled. Another high revenue event lost, great...
I thought that Stern and his lawyers had to talk to the players' lawyers since the union filed their disclaimer. If Stern is waiting for Hunter to call him it's going to be a long wait if Hunter can no longer legally speak for the players. Wished they'd just try to settle their existing differences with the lawyers and get back to making a new CBA.

[vy65]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7250994/buisness-vs-personal

[vy65]

You know what the real irony is? The owners' last proposal actually made a ton of sense. Read Howard Beck's breakdown of what it would have looked like, potentially, and try to find ONE thing that isn't logical. Contracts should be shorter so fans aren't getting constantly turned off by that relentlessly overpaid mediocrity. The gap between big market teams and small market teams should be smaller. A team like Cleveland should have a more favorable chance to keep its best player. A star like Carmelo shouldn't be able to force a trade and get rewarded with a mammoth extension. The mid-level exception should be tempered — it spawned too many dumb contracts and made it harder for teams to improve. What's wrong with coming up with a smarter model in which the right money goes to the right people? That's a bad thing?

As my aforementioned pro sports friend says, "In every part of life there are systems that protect people from doing things that will ultimately hurt themselves — its why banks don't charge $30/month for debit card usage; it's not like they don't want to, and it's not like some people wouldn't pay for it. Once you have the BRI split then EVERYONE should be working towards a better system. The NFL got to the dollars, got to the cap, then tried to make it so the rookie pool made more sense. This is a system issue that benefitted everyone. It doesn't make sense for Sam Bradford to make more than Drew Brees, right? The key with any system issue is trust — you tell the NBPA that the money WILL be in the system no matter what — don't they want it to go to guys like Wade or Dirk or Monta Ellis (early in his career) instead of mediocre veterans like Darko or Cardinal? This is where the agents have too much power — some of the powerful ones benefit from certain system structures even if the overall cash doesn't change — they just need to be ignored, and the players need to really trust that the system change won't cost them dollars in the aggregate."

[DJ Mbenga]

^Stern is on the record as saying "we're done negotiating"

That won't look good in court.

i think some writer pointed this out and said silver's lawyer spidey sense went up and commented and said for this negotiation aka for now, we have our counter offer of 47. stern has his ass covered.

as for stern willing to negotiate. hunter wont be eager to talk when the last deal was bad now when he talks to stern he is gonna say ok 47 BRI lets go. the players went all in on the courts. the owners are not gonna give, they are gonna just sit it out.

[lmbebo]

You know what the real irony is? The owners' last proposal actually made a ton of sense. Read Howard Beck's breakdown of what it would have looked like, potentially, and try to find ONE thing that isn't logical. Contracts should be shorter so fans aren't getting constantly turned off by that relentlessly overpaid mediocrity. The gap between big market teams and small market teams should be smaller. A team like Cleveland should have a more favorable chance to keep its best player. A star like Carmelo shouldn't be able to force a trade and get rewarded with a mammoth extension. The mid-level exception should be tempered — it spawned too many dumb contracts and made it harder for teams to improve. What's wrong with coming up with a smarter model in which the right money goes to the right people? That's a bad thing?

As my aforementioned pro sports friend says, "In every part of life there are systems that protect people from doing things that will ultimately hurt themselves — its why banks don't charge $30/month for debit card usage; it's not like they don't want to, and it's not like some people wouldn't pay for it. Once you have the BRI split then EVERYONE should be working towards a better system. The NFL got to the dollars, got to the cap, then tried to make it so the rookie pool made more sense. This is a system issue that benefitted everyone. It doesn't make sense for Sam Bradford to make more than Drew Brees, right? The key with any system issue is trust — you tell the NBPA that the money WILL be in the system no matter what — don't they want it to go to guys like Wade or Dirk or Monta Ellis (early in his career) instead of mediocre veterans like Darko or Cardinal? This is where the agents have too much power — some of the powerful ones benefit from certain system structures even if the overall cash doesn't change — they just need to be ignored, and the players need to really trust that the system change won't cost them dollars in the aggregate."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2011-11-18/qampa-former-union-head-charles-grantham/51282176/1

a good Q&A by the guy who used to have Billy Hunter's job.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I haven't read anything written in this thread or the lockout in general, but....

It seems to me that it will be pretty hard to show the owners weren't negotiating in good faith when their proposal would have still left the players as the highest paid team athletes in the world. It is a percentage higher than either professional sports league that recently went through lockouts--the NHL and the NFL. Plus, a labor union that insists on trying to get a deal that does not allow for the employer to make a reasonable return on investment is short-sighted indeed.

If that is the standard by which it is judged. The lockout itself is easy to demonstrate harm as they are not getting paid at all. There is no CBA and unilateral salary restrictions have no chance in hell of flying if its played out.

The NBA will not make the case that they were losing money because that would open them up for accounting and that just isn't going to happen anyway.

[The Truth #6]

Interesting...so if the NBA won' make the case of money lost in order to keep their bank accounts closed to the courts, then what is their argument for having a lockout?...system issues?

[lmbebo]

They said the system is broke. Thats what they are trying to fix and cover there losses.

Players want to keep current system, but offered to help cover costs.

[DMC]

I would say this: Owners should have to honor existing contracts. If they want to waive a player when it's contractually legal to do so, so be it.

What's the point of a contract if it can just be dismissed?

[mavsfan1000]

No because there are players that take advantage of the contract and stop working hard once they get it. It's pathetic that some of these players become busts after a big contract.

[Duncan2177]

Sources: NBA Optimistic About Christmas Start To Season

Two people who have been briefed on the NBA's strategy said there remains "optimism" that a deal with the players can be struck in time to start the season no later than Christmas. And the league and players may already have started the process of returning to negotiations.

The NBA is said to be disinterested in starting the 2011-12 season after Christmas. Since it will take 30 days from an agreement in principle before the first regular season game can be played, formal discussions between the two sides would need to be recommenced soon.

"I don't know that there's an appetite for a 50-game season," said a person familiar with the league's thinking.

One source said that there have been back-channel communications between the two sides since the union's disclaimer of interest, but a top member of the players' legal team said that no attorney representing the NBA has yet to reach out.

Adam Silver did not return a call seeking comment.
Via CBS Sports

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216644/Sources_NBA_Optimistic_About_Christmas_Start_To_Se ason

[DJ Mbenga]

Sources: NBA Optimistic About Christmas Start To Season

Two people who have been briefed on the NBA's strategy said there remains "optimism" that a deal with the players can be struck in time to start the season no later than Christmas. And the league and players may already have started the process of returning to negotiations.

The NBA is said to be disinterested in starting the 2011-12 season after Christmas. Since it will take 30 days from an agreement in principle before the first regular season game can be played, formal discussions between the two sides would need to be recommenced soon.

"I don't know that there's an appetite for a 50-game season," said a person familiar with the league's thinking.

One source said that there have been back-channel communications between the two sides since the union's disclaimer of interest, but a top member of the players' legal team said that no attorney representing the NBA has yet to reach out.

Adam Silver did not return a call seeking comment.
Via CBS Sports

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216644/Sources_NBA_Optimistic_About_Christmas_Start_To_Se ason

Adrian Wornjahowski says they dont plan on meeting befoer thanksgiving or likely after. why is that bad. need a month before a season can begin. they cant hammer out a deal dealing with thanksgiving, themselves being douches, and time. if they lose the christamas games thats lots of tv revenue the owners might just say the hell with it lose it all and ask for the world.

[Jacob1983]

I'll believe when I see it. I'd love for it to happen and see the Mavs and Heat play on Christmas but I'd say it's 50/50 that the season will be lost or we will see another shitty 40 to 50 game season.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

I'll believe when I see it. I'd love for it to happen and see the Mavs and Heat play on Christmas but I'd say it's 50/50 that the season will be lost or we will see another shitty 40 to 50 game season.

Tbh, any basketball would be a miracle. Even 50 games can hold me until next season, wouldn't matter who won the asterisk, just want to see some basketball.

[baseline bum]

Does anyone believe this garbage about the NBA not wanting a 50 game season if that's what it comes to? They'll take what they can get if it makes them money. ROFL at the idea that a half season could be anywhere near as bad for the league's image as a missed season.

[Bruno]

They have about one week to save Christmas games. If players and owners are still fine with a 50/50 BRI split, reaching an agreement shouldn't be too complicated.

[Giuseppe]

Does anyone believe this garbage about the NBA not wanting a 50 game season if that's what it comes to?

Frankly I was counting on it. I figured if it got past the Dec 1st paycheck and the players hadn't gotten scared & rolled over I was home free.

[dbestpro]

Interesting...so if the NBA won' make the case of money lost in order to keep their bank accounts closed to the courts, then what is their argument for having a lockout?...system issues?

The owners have provided the same financials that the IRS requires. If it is good enough for those vamps it should be good enough for the rest of the "blood sucking lawyers".

[DPG21920]

Not exactly DB. There is a huge difference in what is "acceptable" accounting for the IRS and what should be actually looked at with logic. That was one of the big issues. At first the owners claimed 300 million in losses before letting the players look at the books. They players even before looking disputed that number saying that while an acceptable accounting practice, the owners were allocating certain line items as losses that should not be included. When they looked this was confirmed, and the actual operating losses were more like 100 million.

[8FOR!3]

So wait is there a legit chance there will be a season starting at Christmas? I've heard so much throughout all this I don't know who to believe...

[spurs10]

They have about one week to save Christmas games. If players and owners are still fine with a 50/50 BRI split, reaching an agreement shouldn't be too complicated.
I agree with you. Surely there is a compromise that can be hammered out on the system issues. You have to believe, with so much at stake, they have given a lot of thought to this.

[DPG21920]

Bruno has been overly optimistic IMO. While it is logical what he says, they have not been operating logically. If that were the case we'd have ball right now. I highly doubt we have ball this season from what I've seen and read. Hope I'm wrong. I'm completely fine w a 50 game season

[spurs10]

Bruno has been overly optimistic IMO. While it is logical what he says, they have not been operating logically. If that were the case we'd have ball right now. I highly doubt we have ball this season from what I've seen and read. Hope I'm wrong. I'm completely fine w a 50 game season
Yes, while I agree with Bruno that "it shouldn't be that complicated", I also know "they have been operating logically." To me it is utter insanity, and obscene in a world full of struggling workers, that they can't figure out how to divide 4 billion dollars. I have also appreciated your support for the players throughout this ordeal, but I'm not buying any one's crocodile tears for the arena workers, parking attendants, and the other thousands of people who are getting hurt. Every one loses in this game of the rich versus the richer. If they don't find a way to a partial season the damage will be irreparable.

[ChuckD]

So wait is there a legit chance there will be a season starting at Christmas? I've heard so much throughout all this I don't know who to believe...

I wouldn't buy tickets to a Christmas game to put in anyone's stocking. Just sayin...

[Bruno]

Bruno has been overly optimistic IMO. While it is logical what he says, they have not been operating logically. If that were the case we'd have ball right now. I highly doubt we have ball this season from what I've seen and read. Hope I'm wrong. I'm completely fine w a 50 game season

I'm not optimistic or pessimistic about a deal being reached next week. I'm just saying that owners and players were really close to an agreement a week ago. There is little work to do to go from a CBA that was agreed at 95% to a fully agreed CBA. I don't have a clue whether or not they will make the effort to solve these 5%.

[DJ Mbenga]

So wait is there a legit chance there will be a season starting at Christmas? I've heard so much throughout all this I don't know who to believe...

Nope. adrian worhjahowski already said earlier in the day stern is gonna wait for hunter to call him(its like these guys are teens in love during puberty) and that there wont likel be talk before thanksgiving. why is that date important? if they dont do something by thanksgiving it all but ends the chirstmas day as the day the season could begin.

[spurs10]

Hunter is no longer representing the union, he won't be calling Stern unless it's to go out for a pizza or something.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The owners have provided the same financials that the IRS requires. If it is good enough for those vamps it should be good enough for the rest of the "blood sucking lawyers".


Not exactly DB. There is a huge difference in what is "acceptable" accounting for the IRS and what should be actually looked at with logic. That was one of the big issues. At first the owners claimed 300 million in losses before letting the players look at the books. They players even before looking disputed that number saying that while an acceptable accounting practice, the owners were allocating certain line items as losses that should not be included. When they looked this was confirmed, and the actual operating losses were more like 100 million.

Bingo. The Spurs for example have been playing hanky panky with various vendors and outlets for years.

If the NBA tries to justify the lockout with "we are losing money" then the first thing that will happen is the union will dispute that the teams individual tax returns are the total of their income. All of the deals with vendors, parking lots, concesssions etc that have exhibited the creative accounting will be called into question.

In a regular negotiation, the owners can say the argument that was parroted by db that "if its good enough for the IRS then its good enough for you" and get away with it because they cannot be compelled to do shit. The court OTOH has far more power.

If the court is willing to entertain the argument then the NBA cannot just refuse to comply. Its a courtroom and who knows what will happen but to say that its not a clear risk by going down that road then they have very poor representation.

Maybe the owners have nothing to hide and do not want closer scrutiny on their financials but the moment they go down that track then they can be rebutted.

[ElNono]

I absolutely doubt Hunter will be making any calls to Stern unless the NBA case in NY is dismissed. I know owners don't want to talk to the lawyers, but I don't think there's any other road right now.

[Sean Cagney]

Does anyone believe this garbage about the NBA not wanting a 50 game season if that's what it comes to? They'll take what they can get if it makes them money. ROFL at the idea that a half season could be anywhere near as bad for the league's image as a missed season.

Basically.
I wouldn't buy tickets to a Christmas game to put in anyone's stocking. Just sayin...

DITTO! I agree.

[DJ Mbenga]

Hunter is no longer representing the union, he won't be calling Stern unless it's to go out for a pizza or something.

but he is in the group of 4 lawyers. its better him than kessler. if he calls stern will just hang up. and yeah nobody is calling anyone before that pending suit. the owners will want the players to come back crawling in mid december see if they make it happen for another 50 game season.

[spurs10]

but he is in the group of 4 lawyers. its better him than kessler. if he calls stern will just hang up. and yeah nobody is calling anyone before that pending suit. the owners will want the players to come back crawling in mid december see if they make it happen for another 50 game season.
I'm hoping Boies will earn his keep and do the talking for the players from here on out. There's not as much bad blood between him and Stern as Kessler and Hunter. I know it's being optimistic, but I'm hoping cooler heads will prevail.

[DMC]

Let's see how many big houses and boats go up for sale from these guys in the next few months. Many of them are living paycheck to paycheck, hard as that is to believe.

[DMC]

So there is still BRI right now, from merchandise and such. Do the owners get this and the players get squat?

[ChuckD]

So there is still BRI right now, from merchandise and such. Do the owners get this and the players get squat?

Ding, ding, ding. If you're buying merchandise, or watching NBAtv, you're de facto supporting the owners.

[Jacob1983]

Just give up already and accept that the season is probably lost. It sucks but that's just they way it is. The NBA is going to be screwed for a couple of years. The players, owners, and Stern brought this on themselves. Greed, arrogance, and stupidity are what the players, owners, and Stern have. They have caused this shit. They need to be adults about it and own up and accept responsibility and try to come up with a solution.

I don't even think a 50 game season is possible anymore. I would say if there was a season, it would be 30 to 40 games but like I said earlier, who will watch?

[mavsfan1000]

I needed a year break from basketball anyways. Will make it more fresh when it comes back.

[Duncan2177]

Letter: Head of NBA coaches group urges labor 'truce'

Muted by the threat of heavy fines for voicing their opinions or even having contact with players, NBA coaches largely have been kept out of the fray in the league's increasingly bitter labor dispute.But that changed a little Sunday when the head of the NBA Coaches Association urged the owners and the players to return to the bargaining table and salvage what's left of the 2011-12 season."I'm urging this call for an immediate return to discussions by the parties," Michael Goldberg, executive director of the association wrote in an open letter released to the media Sunday. "The upcoming NBA season must be saved. To do otherwise will cause a self-inflicted economic blow to an enterprise that over the years through the hard work of players, team owners and the League Office has become a great global brand, but, like every business operating in today's fragile economic landscape, one that is more susceptible to 'decline and fall.' "Goldberg served as general counsel to the American Basketball Association beginning in 1973. In 1978, he was appointed to his current post with the NBA Coaches Association, which represent head and assistant coaches as well as alumni But Goldberg said he was not representing the coaches with his letter. Instead he was expressing his individual concerns about the lockout, which reached its 143rd day Sunday."There is no time to waste," Goldberg wrote. "History has proven that all sports labor conflicts are ultimately solved. No doubt all sides are concerned about their financial well-being and rightly so. But everyone involved must now think beyond their own interests, check out the daily financial headlines, and work towards a negotiated solution now."Short of this all parties will risk killing the goose that lays so many golden eggs for so many connected with it."

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/11/20/coaches-labor/index.html

[spurs10]

Letter: Head of NBA coaches group urges labor 'truce'

Muted by the threat of heavy fines for voicing their opinions or even having contact with players, NBA coaches largely have been kept out of the fray in the league's increasingly bitter labor dispute.But that changed a little Sunday when the head of the NBA Coaches Association urged the owners and the players to return to the bargaining table and salvage what's left of the 2011-12 season."I'm urging this call for an immediate return to discussions by the parties," Michael Goldberg, executive director of the association wrote in an open letter released to the media Sunday. "The upcoming NBA season must be saved. To do otherwise will cause a self-inflicted economic blow to an enterprise that over the years through the hard work of players, team owners and the League Office has become a great global brand, but, like every business operating in today's fragile economic landscape, one that is more susceptible to 'decline and fall.' "Goldberg served as general counsel to the American Basketball Association beginning in 1973. In 1978, he was appointed to his current post with the NBA Coaches Association, which represent head and assistant coaches as well as alumni But Goldberg said he was not representing the coaches with his letter. Instead he was expressing his individual concerns about the lockout, which reached its 143rd day Sunday."There is no time to waste," Goldberg wrote. "History has proven that all sports labor conflicts are ultimately solved. No doubt all sides are concerned about their financial well-being and rightly so. But everyone involved must now think beyond their own interests, check out the daily financial headlines, and work towards a negotiated solution now."Short of this all parties will risk killing the goose that lays so many golden eggs for so many connected with it."

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/steve_aschburner/11/20/coaches-labor/index.html
If Goldberg's plea doesn't move them , then nothing willl.

[Fabbs]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/14/Ralph_Wiggum.png/212px-Ralph_Wiggum.png
when i lose all of my salary for this season i'll make it up in the other seasons.

[Duncan2177]

NBA players pull lawsuit in California

NEW YORK -- NBA players have withdrawn one of their lawsuits against the league but could resubmit it.

A filing made Monday in the Northern District of California asked that the suit be "discontinued, without prejudice."

Locked-out players filed class-action antitrust lawsuits against the league last Tuesday in California and Minnesota. Plaintiffs in the California suit included Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant.

The players' representatives planned a news conference later Monday.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7266615/nba-lockout-players-withdraw-one-their-antitrust-lawsuits-league-california

[DesignatedT]

What's the meaning of that?

[Dex]

More time wasted.

[ElNono]

Supposedly, they feel the case will move faster in Minnesota, so they moved both lawsuits there.... here's the story (AP, so link only).

NBA players move case to Minnesota (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7266615/nba-lockout-players-consolidate-antitrust-fight-minnesota)

[ElNono]

More here:

N.B.A. Players Merge Lawsuits (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/22/sports/basketball/nba-players-merge-lawsuits.html)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What's the meaning of that?

I am not an attorney so take what I say with a grain of salt. This does make sense to me however.

They withdrew the filing from California and moved it to Minnesota. Now I am not completely sure and a quick google search resulted in no information one way or anther but I imagine it is being filed in Susan Nelson's Minnesota court which is the exact same place the NFLPA sued the NFL.

If that is indeed the case then it means a couple of things. Its the same year, with the same judges. They know that Nelson will find the lockout illegal because she issued an immediate injunction for the NFL. Her appeals court came back and said she did not have the authority because they ruled a specific injunction exemption worked for owners too. They however did not say that the case did not have merit beyond to say the evidence of harm needed more information. They asked for specific information.

The game plan is already laid out.

Now the players are trying to sue in the same place. They know that Judge Nelson will likely rule against the lockout and they know that the appellate court will not allow for an injunction. More importantly they know what those appellate judges want to meet their burden.

Essentially what it means is that in 6 months or less Judge Nelson can actually rule on the case and order the NBA to cease and desist the lockout and the appeals court just has to agree that they violate antitrust laws and not the back half within 12 months.

Its a slow process for certain but come May once the initial trial is over, the lockout could be over and the NBA in the same spot the NFL was in 1988.

The NBA is going to fight like hell to get everything moved over to NY and they are going to fail for the same reason that all patent cases end up getting moved out to East Texas. Sports labor law is Minnesota's expertise and has been the place for pretty much all the precedents for the last 30 years.

[ElNono]

^^^ Basically, it's a venue move much like you assert. The NBAPA isn't requesting an injunction though.

[DesignatedT]

I am not an attorney so take what I say with a grain of salt. This does make sense to me however.

They withdrew the filing from California and moved it to Minnesota. Now I am not completely sure and a quick google search resulted in no information one way or anther but I imagine it is being filed in Susan Nelson's Minnesota court which is the exact same place the NFLPA sued the NFL.

If that is indeed the case then it means a couple of things. Its the same year, with the same judges. They know that Nelson will find the lockout illegal because she issued an immediate injunction for the NFL. Her appeals court came back and said she did not have the authority because they ruled a specific injunction exemption worked for owners too. They however did not say that the case did not have merit beyond to say the evidence of harm needed more information. They asked for specific information.

The game plan is already laid out.

Now the players are trying to sue in the same place. They know that Judge Nelson will likely rule against the lockout and they know that the appellate court will not allow for an injunction. More importantly they know what those appellate judges want to meet their burden.

Essentially what it means is that in 6 months or less Judge Nelson can actually rule on the case and order the NBA to cease and desist the lockout and the appeals court just has to agree that they violate antitrust laws and not the back half within 12 months.

Its a slow process for certain but come May once the initial trial is over, the lockout could be over and the NBA in the same spot the NFL was in 1988.

The NBA is going to fight like hell to get everything moved over to NY and they are going to fail for the same reason that all patent cases end up getting moved out to East Texas. Sports labor law is Minnesota's expertise and has been the place for pretty much all the precedents for the last 30 years.

Thanks.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

^^^ Basically, it's a venue move much like you assert. The NBAPA isn't requesting an injunction though.

Given that venue its a waste of time. They are including the lockout in the complaint though. Cease and desist. I am so disgusted with NBA ownership right now. I really hope Kessler and Boies take them to the woodshed.

I wonder who would be the first team to start signing players at that point. I am guessing the guy in NJ will lay out fat stacks if allowed.

[ElNono]

Given that venue its a waste of time. They are including the lockout in the complaint though. Cease and desist. I am so disgusted with NBA ownership right now. I really hope Kessler and Boies take them to the woodshed.

I wonder who would be the first team to start signing players at that point. I am guessing the guy in NJ will lay out fat stacks if allowed.

AFAIK, they're seeking a declaration of the lockout to be illegal along with asking for damages. Obviously, even if the court side with them, it would likely request a conciliatory meeting or a full blown court-ordered settlement, at which point owners should budge.

That's the theory anyways.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

AFAIK, they're seeking a declaration of the lockout to be illegal along with asking for damages. Obviously, even if the court side with them, it would likely request a conciliatory meeting or a full blown court-ordered settlement, at which point owners should budge.

That's the theory anyways.

As it stands now Stern can fine teams that talk to players etc. After such a ruling he cannot do that anymore. If the crazy Slav wants to buy him some players there isn't shit Stern can do about it or he would more than likely risk jail time. Violating court orders is frowned upon by the bench.

[Dex]

http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/11/nba-lockout-five-things-to-note-about-players-consolidating-lawsuits.html


NBA lockout: Three things to note about consolidating lawsuits
November 22, 2011 | 11:12 am
--Mark Medina

1. Players consolidated lawsuits in hopes of expediting the case. After filing two antitrust lawsuits last week, in Northern California and Minnesota, NBA players amended the case Tuesday in Minnesota. This prompted NBA attorney Rick Buchanan to suggest players' attorney David Boies was simply "shopping for a forum that he can only hope will be friendlier to his baseless legal claims." But Boies told reporters in New York the move would help speed up the case since the NBA now has to respond to the filing by Dec. 5. In the previous suit, the first hearing would take place in December, 2012.

2. A deal needs to be made by Friday to avoid Christmas game cancellations. The NBA has formally canceled games only through Dec. 15. But by David Stern's insistence that the league needs at least a month to prepare with a training camp and free agency period, both sides would need to reach a deal by Friday to secure games by Christmas.

3. Why isn't anyone picking up the phone? In perhaps the lowest point in the current work stoppage, neither the owners nor players have formally talked to each other since the union's disbandment last week. Yahoo! Sports' Adrian Wojnarowski first reported on the league's insistence that it won't reach out to the players' so-called trade association until Dec. 1, in hopes that it will further break their resolve. In turn, Sheridan Hoops' Chris Sheridan detailed an extensive rundown with his conversation with Boies on why he remains adamant about not calling the league himself. It's possible a phone call will take place, but all this hand-wringing over such a nonissue shows how pathetic both sides are acting 144 days into the lockout.

[Mr. Body]

Bless you, but I don't see a season this year in any way. Both sides are digging in.

[ace3g]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Source confirms this: RT @darrenrovell: NBA union tells players in memo they'll each get an additional $58K from nba b/c of a "shortfall."

[ElNono]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/16204428/both-sides-in-nba-battle-reach-out-to-previous-dealbroker-quinn

From that piece:

One of the obstacles in the who-calls-whom-first dilemma has been that Hunter, no longer the bargaining agent for the players, faces potential legal entanglements if he is the one to initiate negotiations directly with Stern. If a settlement can't be reached in the next few days, league attorneys will proceed full steam with their defense of the players' lawsuit -- which includes ramping up their argument in the league-initiated case in New York that the players' disclaimer was a "sham," or negotiating tactic. Hunter picking up the phone and calling Stern, some attorneys believe, would bolster the NBA's legal argument.

Exactly what I was pointing out earlier.

I think what's going to happen is barring any surprise off-the-record talks, Boies will hear from the NBA on Dec 5 when they have to get together for the Minnesota lawsuit. I believe that would be the initiation of any possible settlement deal.

[Bruno]

http://twitter.com/#!/WojYahooNBA



NBA and players resumed talks on Tuesday to try and end the lockout before the cancellation of Christmas games, two sources told Y! Sports.

Talks were expected to continue today, sources said, and one league source tells Y!: "We should know more by later this evening."

[Dex]

Not getting my hopes up, but at least they are freaking talking to each other.



HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Talks proceeding as "settlement" talks bc of pending litigation. Attorneys are in the lead. New CBA can't be adopted until union re-forms
10 minutes ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Derek Fisher isn't a part of the talks now, sources say.
1 hour ago

[Bruno]

I think the Christmas games incentive is quite big. An opening day on Christmas with 15 NBA games including 3 or 4 nationally televised games is a great way to bring back fans to the NBA.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think the Christmas games incentive is quite big. An opening day on Christmas with 15 NBA games including 3 or 4 nationally televised games is a great way to bring back fans to the NBA.

I really do appreciate your capacity for hope. Hopefully it can rub off on the rest of us here.

[baseline bum]

I'm not expecting anything to happen until the new year.

[spurs10]

I think the Christmas games incentive is quite big. An opening day on Christmas with 15 NBA games including 3 or 4 nationally televised games is a great way to bring back fans to the NBA.
Bruno, you are dead on right. I hope they have the sense to realize this.
:flag::flag::toast

[Lukor]

http://twitter.com/#!/WojYahooNBA

Fool me once...

[GB20]

i feel like i have run from new york to san antonio following this shitty lockout. hopefully they get it done man.

[Duncan2177]

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
NBA labor latest: Sources say Stern privately surveying some owners to gauge willingness to making full midlevel exception open to all teams

[Dex]

Can't believe I'm still following this crap, knowing full well this is about to happen to us...

http://media.riemurasia.net/albumit/mmedia/ki/5i4/2iyp/44576/875481316.gif

[Seventyniner]

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
NBA labor latest: Sources say Stern privately surveying some owners to gauge willingness to making full midlevel exception open to all teams

As long as the full midlevel drops to $3M with a 3 year max, this won't be so bad.

Obviously the players really really want this. That MLE has been a gold mine for mediocre players for years.

[Dex]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Fisher hasn't given indication if he will attend Friday meeting, perhaps out of concern for how his inclusion could affect players legally.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Two sides will meet again on Friday in New York, with Hunter and NBA wanting Fisher to join settlement talks, league sources tell Y!
5 minutes ago

[Bruno]

Looks like Friday will be a big negotiation day.

If the NBA agreed to the full MLE for luxury tax teams, a huge step will be made towards the end of the lockout. The last big item to solved will be the amount of luxury tax paid by teams over the threshold.

If both Stern and Hunter wants to have Fisher back at the negotiation table, it should be doable. Both sides can fill a document saying that Fisher presence in these negotiations can't and won't be used during future trials.

[Giuseppe]

The last big item to solved will be the amount of luxury tax paid by teams over the threshold.

Since day one there has never been anything else.

[timtonymanu]

I still don't buy it. There have been many "big" negotiation days that resulted in nothing.

[Dex]

L7iZaRpst9k

[ChuckD]

I still don't buy it. There have been many "big" negotiation days that resulted in nothing.

It's smart not to "buy" anything until they announce that it's done, but there WILL be basketball again at some point. When that point is is the only question. It could be this, it could be the next thing, it could come down to the wire in early January like 99, or it could be next year, but there will be basketball again.

[spurs10]

There is a great old song that goes "It's now or never."

[DJ Mbenga]

Looks like Friday will be a big negotiation day.

If the NBA agreed to the full MLE for luxury tax teams, a huge step will be made towards the end of the lockout. The last big item to solved will be the amount of luxury tax paid by teams over the threshold.

If both Stern and Hunter wants to have Fisher back at the negotiation table, it should be doable. Both sides can fill a document saying that Fisher presence in these negotiations can't and won't be used during future trials.

i think thats it. the owners wouldnt give more. these guys are really reluctant to do anything. the power of stern will be put to the test friday. can he deliver? unless the owners decide to do a counter with give backs albeing minor from both, reduce the draconian tax and up the semi tax mle to 3.4 or 4 million or 3.5 with an increased year.

[ChuckD]

i think thats it. the owners wouldnt give more. these guys are really reluctant to do anything. the power of stern will be put to the test friday. can he deliver? unless the owners decide to do a counter with give backs albeing minor from both, reduce the draconian tax and up the semi tax mle to 3.4 or 4 million or 3.5 with an increased year.

I think the owners had no idea the stones that the players had and showed by disbanding and taking it to court. They thought they had an easy mark in the NBPA, and that turned out not to be the case. I think there was a group of owners "in the middle" that was willing to go with the hard liners and take it to the edge, but when faced with actually dumping the season, they'll fold their hand and give some concessions, siding with the big market teams. The owners do not want this to actually go to court, because they could lose triple damages. They need to give on the system issues, make it a shorter 5 year CBA, and revisit it when the new TV deal is in place.

[Giuseppe]

In order for the players to "win" at this point the tax hit would have to go back to 1 to 1. Even a 2-1 hit would provide the structure change the owners are pursuing.

[ChuckD]

In order for the players to "win" at this point the tax hit would have to go back to 1 to 1. Even a 2-1 hit would provide the structure change the owners are pursuing.

It's not about either side "winning", it's about getting an agreement that both sides find falls short of what they want, but that gets basketball going. Trying to "win" is what got us to where we are right now.

BTW, the players can do just fine with 2/1, but the Lakers won't be able to buy the players you want.

[spurs10]

In order for the players to "win" at this point the tax hit would have to go back to 1 to 1. Even a 2-1 hit would provide the structure change the owners are pursuing.
The chances of 1 to 1 happening are about 1 to 1,000,000. The players seemingly have already agreed to 1 to 1.5 for the first 5 million and then a progressive upswing for every dollar above that. I doubt the owners will come off that too much....but ya never know. Buss will have to cut back on his visits to the Chicken Ranch and settle for some KFC..
:hat

[Giuseppe]

It's not about either side "winning", it's about getting an agreement that both sides find falls short of what they want, but that gets basketball going. Trying to "win" is what got us to where we are right now.

BTW, the players can do just fine with 2/1, but the Lakers won't be able to buy the players you want.

2/1 casts an immediate chilling effect upon player movement. Everybody knows it:::the players are too chickenshit to actually say it (like the owners don't realize it:rolleyes)

Hell, 1/1 upon gross examination goes against every business tenet. It's extraordinary.

2/1 is doomsday. That Chuck is (winning) for the owners, and losing for the players. You & Media feeling good about it is fine for "you" and even the rest of "me" because we have no stake in it aside from me(even Lakaluva can't see it)/"the Lakers won't be able to buy the players you (I) want."

So yes, I'm selfish, but, my selfishness serves the players a lot more than it will serve me.

And you know what else?

They know it.

[Giuseppe]

The chances of 1 to 1 happening are about 1 to 1,000,000. The players seemingly have already agreed to 1 to 1.5 for the first 5 million and then a progressive upswing for every dollar above that.

There is nothing in b&w that supports your assertion.

Do I smell a rat there as you imply? Sadly, yes. Its just extremely motherfucking difficult for me to fathom & believe the playes have taken a fit over the finer points of the MLE. And if that is what their hangup is::::lmao:lmao:lmao

[Fabbs]

L7iZaRpst9k
nice.

I don't give two &^it's about these greedoids.

[Duncan2177]

Fisher to rejoin NBA’s labor talks

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AvcEidgeT9fRr56y.3yl9HC8vLYF?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_lockout_talks_resume_112311

[spurs10]

There is nothing in b&w that supports your assertion.

Do I smell a rat there as you imply? Sadly, yes. Its just extremely motherfucking difficult for me to fathom & believe the playes have taken a fit over the finer points of the MLE. And if that is what their hangup is::::lmao:lmao:lmao
One thing I have to give you, this indeed is about the luxury tax above all else, and always has been. While there is "nothing in b&w that supports" my "assertion", there will be before another game of NBA basketball is played. It's always been a battle between the have and have-not owners with the players paying the tab inevitably. The only person or team that will be hurt more than Buss' Lakers will be Cuban's Mavs.

[baseline bum]

LOL @ Woj killing Fisher for helping to strengthen the NBA's case that the antitrust suit was a negotiating tactic. It'll be hilarious is that's Stern's only intent.

[ElNono]

At least Kessler looks to be temporarily out of the picture... that's a good start to reach an agreement.

[Giuseppe]

The only person or team that will be hurt more than Buss' Lakers will be Cuban's Mavs.

Yep.

And the players will be hobbled monetarily ever more. A low cap will be set and the money will be centralized. The owners will no longer have to worry about slitting each other's throats jogging after mediocre talent and humiliatingly overpaying that talent. It will be out of their hands. They'll be no lose money laying around like it is now:::that is a powerful vision for the players and their agents. The money is everywhere. The risk is ALL on the owner's side of the ledger. The player & agent have no worries, no risk. It's a slice of heaven. No more. Once it goes to 2-1 the tables turn 180 degrees. Buss is a company man. He'll get in line. He's a business man. He's had his beak in the trough for over 30 years unencumbered. He'll have no problem cowtowing to Stern now. Cuban, in the backwash of his ringage may sign on as well. He's sated.

Only the cocknockers like me with their nose wide open will beat the wife, or, kick the dog when the players roll over.

[Dex]

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
As @KBergCBS just tweeted, Kessler will not be present today. However, I can say definitively that Quinn will be.
2 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Also, to clarify once more: Jeff Kessler remains part of NBPA's team. But his role has been mitigated by hiring of Jim Quinn.
2 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
3. All parties agreed IN ADVANCE that nothing in these talks would impact the litigation or be used to prove either side's case in court.
3 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
2. These are technically "settlement" talks bc of players' lawsuit, but they are being treated as extension of previous negotiations.
3 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
A few notes about the framework for today's NBA talks: 1. They are picking up where they left off Nov. 10: Same 50-50 proposal on table
3 hours ago

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Players' lawyer Jeff Kessler will not be present today, but remains "very much involved," per source. Jim Quinn taking prominent role.
3 hours ago

[Mr. Body]

I think the owners had no idea the stones that the players had and showed by disbanding and taking it to court. They thought they had an easy mark in the NBPA, and that turned out not to be the case. I think there was a group of owners "in the middle" that was willing to go with the hard liners and take it to the edge, but when faced with actually dumping the season, they'll fold their hand and give some concessions, siding with the big market teams. The owners do not want this to actually go to court, because they could lose triple damages. They need to give on the system issues, make it a shorter 5 year CBA, and revisit it when the new TV deal is in place.

It'd be nice to think, but Stern (and whatever faction he leads) has such a clamp on all the owners. Take a look at that half a million he fined the Miami owner for a fucking Tweet. Stern not only behaves like a petty dictator, he has the means in his hands to keep everyone in line.

I don't think he lets the owners budge.

[ChuckD]

It'd be nice to think, but Stern (and whatever faction he leads) has such a clamp on all the owners. Take a look at that half a million he fined the Miami owner for a fucking Tweet. Stern not only behaves like a petty dictator, he has the means in his hands to keep everyone in line.

I don't think he lets the owners budge.

Stern doesn't control the owners, he works for them. Right now, the majority want the hard line. If that changes, so will his tone. Why else would he be re-polling the owners to see if they would support giving on the system issues?

If the moderates flip, believe me, Stern flips with the majority of ownership.

[DJ Mbenga]

seems like today is about exchanging proposals and sleep on it with more work either tomorrow and a deal or risk it to the last second on sunday

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
As for progress in today's NBA talks, high-ranking league source says: "They literally just started talking about the actual deal points."
1 hour ago

[Dex]

Lucy is setting up again...


Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
First good sign is DFish, Mo Evans at meeting. Union would have to re-form 4 deal to take place, so their presence may b sign of progress
37 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Another good sign: NBA owners have Labor Relations Committee conference call scheduled for later tonite, sources say

[Giuseppe]

They get it back to 1-1 I'll give up the shit bag forever more.

[Duncan2177]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Source close to talks gives vague update, says progress being made...
5 minutes ago

[Bruno]

If they reach an agreement this week end and go with a 66 games season, it will be a crazy season.

66 games and the ASG in about 128 days will be a lot. A lot of quality depth will be crucial to survive the regular season. Having trading Hill for a rookie will hurt a lot Spurs in that kind of season.

[Duncan2177]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Labor Relations committee must approve any changes owners make in proposal to players
5 minutes ago

[DJ Mbenga]

seems like today is a counter offer day. stern will take it to his guys, see what he can bring back. if its good enough they will agree tomorrow. if not maybe they milk it to sunday and it becomes a last second thing

[Bruno]

Players have still given up way too much in these negotiations. They should harden their stance. If owners aren't fine with the system players want then players should ask to get 51% or 52% of the BRI instead.

[Mr. Body]

Stern doesn't control the owners, he works for them. Right now, the majority want the hard line. If that changes, so will his tone. Why else would he be re-polling the owners to see if they would support giving on the system issues?

If the moderates flip, believe me, Stern flips with the majority of ownership.

David Stern is by no means a neutral party, both in public and in dealing with the owners as a body.

[Giuseppe]

Players have still given up way too much in these negotiations. They should harden their stance. If owners aren't fine with the system players want then players should ask to get 51% or 52% of the BRI instead.

This^

The players screwed up by giving away 7 points on the BRI and not getting anything for it. But, they played coy to the owner's jack boots and got their ass handed to 'em. Now they're back to the table looking for relief and all they have to offer is to beg.

[DJ Mbenga]

the fact that quinn isnt there is probably not good for tonight. they hired him to be a mediator. another 48 hrs of awaiting tweets. lovely.

[ChuckD]

David Stern is by no means a neutral party, both in public and in dealing with the owners as a body.

Nothing I've said even implies that. He is NOT in charge of the owners, though. He must do what the majority want. Up until now, that's been the hard line. That hasn't worked.

[ChuckD]

If they reach an agreement this week end and go with a 66 games season, it will be a crazy season.

66 games and the ASG in about 128 days will be a lot. A lot of quality depth will be crucial to survive the regular season. Having trading Hill for a rookie will hurt a lot Spurs in that kind of season.

If Anderson is healthy, he and Gary Neal will more than replace George's minutes. I would really have missed the George from 2 years ago, but last year's George is easily replaced. He took two steps backward.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Is the meeting still going on?

& I agree, Hill is a great player, and will no doubt make the Pacers
more of a contender, but I see Anderson having alot more potential, potential
to be more than a role player. Then we have Neal, who has proven himself to
be a great scoring option, outside or inside to the rim.

Not to mention, we still have another rookie to try out, in Da'Sean Butler.
Nobody knows if he will do good or not.

[baseline bum]

I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if Anderson is as good as Hill. Still, the team desperately needed a SF.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Anderson is bigger, and stronger. He isn't as fast, or have the handles of Hill, but we'll be okay without Hill. what do you think about Dasean?

& they're still negotiating!

[Dex]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Owners' Labor relations committee deflated when told on conference call that players asked for 51% BRI
21 minutes ago

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
League source also said players not getting full midlevel from luxury tax teams..players not asking for full ml, just increase from $3 mill
24 minutes ago

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Have confirmed that Kessler, via speakerphone, asked for 51% tonight, as reported by Yahoo and ESPN. Step backwards in negotiations.
40 minutes ago

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
RT @HowardBeckNYT: Now 14 hours in. Record for NBA lockout meetings is 16
42 minutes ago

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Now 14 hours in. Record for lockout meeting is 16.
42 minutes ago

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
League source says no way deal getting done if players insist on more than 50% BRI.
49 minutes ago

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Owners dismayed by players asking for 51% BRI 2nite. Players have wanted more than 50 since disclaiming....
51 minutes ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
The players are clearly trying to feel out how much leverage the filing of federal suits against the NBA have gained them in the process.
1 hour ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
This happened several hours ago, source says. The two sides left the room, huddled and talks resumed again.
1 hour ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Attorney Jeffrey Kessler joined the talks via speaker phone to make 51-49 proposal to league, source says. Stern, Peter Holt shot it down.
1 hour ago

[Duncan2177]

This is getting more hilarious by the minute.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

The players thought they gained a little leverage by that lawsuit bullshit.... but again the owners shoot em down. At some point the players have to see the writing on the wall

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

The players are being ridiculous. What a pathetic negotiating tactic disclaiming was, wasted alot of time.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

If nothing comes of these meetings I honestly want Stern to just kaboom the whole season.
At some point this has to stop.. season or no season

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

I'm fine with that at this point. I mean, we've been following these negotiations because as fans we're obviously concerned, but each time they meet for an absurd amount of hours, and get nothing done, what could they possibly do for 14 hours if there isn't any significant progress? Mean mugging each other from across the table, until they can't fight off sleep any longer.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

I have asked myself that many times.... what could these dudes really be doing for this long in that room?? I honestly feel like these long azz meetings increase the hate each side has for one another.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

meeting over

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

agreement reached

[DJ Mbenga]

CBS says we have an agreemnt. berger is good but we have to wait out to see if yahoo jumps on the story. usually they are first.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

No fucking way.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Joint press conferences, deal done sources say.
YES!!!

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Well I'll be damned..

[DJ Mbenga]

3:30 am press conference. i wonder if anyone will actually carry it

[Duncan2177]

3:30 am press conference. I wonder if anyone will actually carry it

nbatv

[mattyc]

At fucking last.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Damn, I started this thread like 3 months ago, can't believe it reached 107 pages, and all the way to the end of this lock-out.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

well done my friend.