Resuming CBA talks

[DJ Mbenga]

my guess is the decertification was going to be used for tactical purposes. after what the owners presented its real now.

[ElNono]

If that offer doesn't deserve the nuclear option, not sure what kind of offer does... and if the NBDL rule is for real, then I'll pay for tickets to go kick the player's asses.

[DPG21920]

Exactly. It's like the players are abused spouses. "I know my spouse hits me, but I promise my spouse will change and my spouse really loves me. Maybe this time if I talk to my spouse, they'll realize"

[DJ Mbenga]

If that offer doesn't deserve the nuclear option, not sure what kind of offer does... and if the NBDL rule is for real, then I'll pay for tickets to go kick the player's asses.

its not real just because it wasnt up for discussion yet. it was a B issue. but it does signify the entirty of the discussions. this was a b issue and they are looking to rape on that too. part of me is hoping the players vote for it just because i want basketball but when i step back and look at the issues i am witnessing rape and hope the players bother to fight against the big bad owners.

[baseline bum]

If the NBA wants to have a product anything close to NFL quality they must have a hard cap, do away with sign and trades and make players contracts team option year to year.

Otherwise the teams with money are gonna win every year, and these lazy ass players/ Democrats are gonna keep getting paid far above thier worth. SA has almost no chance to win another title in our market baring having another miracle lotto pick.

So let's say you work for Microsoft. They have the right to prevent you from taking a job at Apple or Google?

[DPG21920]

Also, for the umptenth time, if you want an NFL style league it can't be financed solely by the players. The profit sharing amongst owners in the NFL absolutely is key and the NBA owners have it great compared to the NFL in that regard.

[Giuseppe]

"I know my spouse hits me, but I promise my spouse will change and my spouse really loves me. Maybe this time if I talk to my spouse, they'll realize"

- DoK

[Giuseppe]

Lakers will get $150M per year with their local TV deal. Even if they spend $50M in luxury tax, they still will be fine.

Buss will never spend that kind of penalty. No way.

[silverblk mystix]

Buss will never spend that kind of penalty. No way.

Must be quite upsetting to realize that the Lakers would have to play on a level field for once.

[SequSpur]

Why can't they just have a fuckin cap per team and that's what you can spend? All the contracts should be obsolete now anyway.... They should decertify, that would benefit everyone.

It's funny, they are arguing over money that the fans pay...tickets, concessions, parking, apparel, cable tv.....WTF? what if that shit goes away?

I think Lebron, Wade and that other shitty player totally fucked themselves and the owners are going to hand their asses to them...

Then you have Jordan saying fuck them, give them 47 percent. Shit, that's 3 to 400 million less than last year isn't it? That shit is awesome!

Look, the tickets, the parking, all the shit that goes with it is overpriced and inflated...they need to get this shit under control and get the entertainment back in the game.....the fans have already recognized this shit, when are the players going to?

Fuck Pop.

[Giuseppe]

Must be quite upsetting to realize that the Lakers would have to play on a level field for once.

The thought is withering.

[DPG21920]

p's and q's, Seppe.

[SequSpur]

What do the Lakers have the Spurs haven't gotten? quit your bitching...blame Pop and RDWIC for the shitty pickups they have signed...

fuck matt bonner....fire pop

[Giuseppe]

p's and q's, Seppe.

How's your aunt?

[DJ Mbenga]

What do the Lakers have the Spurs haven't gotten? quit your bitching...blame Pop and RDWIC for the shitty pickups they have signed...

fuck matt bonner....fire pop

:lol :toast

[Wu36]

With the Amnesty Clause can big market teams cut star players and resign them? Like Lakers do it with Kobe. Then resign him for 1 or 2mil. Kobe gets a little raise and the Lakers dont have to pay tax on his current deal but still pay him. Seems like it would either save a lot of teams money to do this or free up cap space for some teams. Aslong as the team knows the player would resign.

[Seventyniner]

With the Amnesty Clause can big market teams cut star players and resign them? Like Lakers do it with Kobe. Then resign him for 1 or 2mil. Kobe gets a little raise and the Lakers dont have to pay tax on his current deal but still pay him. Seems like it would either save a lot of teams money to do this or free up cap space for some teams. Aslong as the team knows the player would resign.

No way this could happen. With the last amnesty clause, the player couldn't re-sign with their former team, and I'm sure that's included in this one too.

[Seventyniner]

I'm going to assume that the 4th luxury tax level is $3 for 1, not $3.25, because the above post says "For every $5 million after $20 million, the tax increases 50 cents: $3.50, $4, $4.50, etc.", but $3.50 is 50 cents more than $3.00, not $3.25.

Some numbers to chew on, then:
1) A team $20M over the tax will pay $43.75M in taxes. Last year's Lakers were almost exactly $20M over the tax, FYI.
2) For Bruno's "Lakers can afford to pay $50M in tax every year," they would only be able to go $21.79M above the tax and pay that $50M. If they stay above it for 3 of 5 years, they could only be $16.16M above the tax and still pay $50M in taxes.
3) The Lakers are projected to pay $54.6M in taxes next year if the tax level doesn't move.
(BTW, I used the Lakers for these examples because they had last season and will have this season the top payroll in the league pre-amnesty)
4) We'll see Cuban's true colors soon, because unless the Mavs amnesty Haywood, they won't be able to give Chandler $10M per season without hitting the tax. Even that would only leave them with 10 players.
5) The Heat are just $3M below the tax level, and will have to pay the tax to improve their team.
6) The Magic are $6M over the tax with only 10 players ($9.25M tax), and already $7M over for 2012-2013. They're going to really be hurting with this new system.
7) The Spurs are $4M into the tax right now with 13 players (including min salaries like Danny Green and Da'Sean Butler). Tim Duncan could do the team a huge favor by opting out and signing a longer contract for the same or more money. I still wonder what happened to that "stretch" provision, which would allow teams to extend cap hits over several years like in the NFL.

Overall, this tax system is extremely punitive and assures that owners barely willing to test that limit before, like Holt, will avoid it like the plague. Even rich owners can't stay above the tax too long unless they want to set money on fire.

I tend to side with the owners, but if I were a player and that D-League provision is true, I'm walking away immediately. It's ridiculous.

[Mel_13]

Tim Duncan could do the team a huge favor by opting out and signing a longer contract for the same or more money.

The deadline for Tim to exercise his early termination option was June 30th. He didn't exercise the option.

[ElNono]

tbqh, I don't get how big market owners are not revolting too. You don't hear much of anything from the owner's side, but I can't think everybody is terribly happy with this deal either. Like Bruno said, this deal is extremely harsh not just on players, but also on big market teams.

[Giuseppe]

this deal is extremely harsh not just on players, but also on big market teams.

It's lethal. The days of wine & roses is over.

[DMC]

Extremely harsh?

What's harsh is that middle class fans feel a multimillion dollar contract for playing ball is unfair for the athlete with only a HS education.

Also, it doesn't matter what kind of deal they agree on, teams will always find loopholes and exploit the hell out of them. Things won't change one iota.

[AFBlue]

The deadline for Tim to exercise his early termination option was June 30th. He didn't exercise the option.

I thought the league extended any deadlines that happened during the lockout to some time in the future. Wasn't the lockout in-place on June 30th?

[Mel_13]

I thought the league extended any deadlines that happened during the lockout to some time in the future. Wasn't the lockout in-place on June 30th?

June 30, 2011 was the last day of the previous CBA. The lockout began on July 1st.

[AFBlue]

June 30, 2011 was the last day of the previous CBA. The lockout began on July 1st.

Thanks for the clarification.

[ElNono]

Extremely harsh?

Harsh compared to the previous CBA and basically how the league has been operating since it's inception.

[Jacob1983]

What happens first? Obama gets re-elected or a regular season game?

This whole lockout has been an epic fail from the beginning. Why didn't the players make a deal earlier? This current deal is extremely shitty but there are a lot of players that don't make Kobe Bryant money. I'm sure Delonte West wants to take the deal. He'd probably rather play in the NBA than deliver furniture. The whole problem with the lockout is that the NBA is trying to fix a problem that has been present for a long long time. That problem is that the sport just isn't competitive and doesn't have any parity. The NBA has a lot of teams that have never even been to the Finals. That right there says that there are teams that have never even had a legitimate shot at a championship. Teams like the Hornets, Raptors, Grizzlies, and Bobcats have never even made it to the conference finals.
The NHL, NFL, and MLB are way more competitive than the NBA. Just look at the histories of all those sports. The Carrolina Hurricanes have won the Stanley Cup. A team from North Carolina has a stanley cup championship.
Why do people have such a dislike for small market teams being successful in the NBA?

If the NBA loses a season, this will be way worse than the baseball strike of 1995 and the lockout that cancelled the 2004-2005 NHL season. The NBA will lose a lot of fans but that's on Stern, the owners, and the players.

Here's one solution to the problem: stop giving shitty contracts to players that suck ass ie Darko Millicic, Rashard Lewis, and Gilbert Arenas. That one is on the owners.

[Nathan89]

tbqh, I don't get how big market owners are not revolting too. You don't hear much of anything from the owner's side, but I can't think everybody is terribly happy with this deal either. Like Bruno said, this deal is extremely harsh not just on players, but also on big market teams.

Stern has a 500,000 dollar muzzle on them.

[mavsfan1000]

So Stern is basically choosing the owners he prefers to make the proposal to the NBPA? No wonder it is so lopsided. The big market owners don't even have a say?

[Jacob1983]

So since the NBA will be gone this season, will the NHL be king from after the Super Bowl to mid June?

[ElNono]

So Stern is basically choosing the owners he prefers to make the proposal to the NBPA? No wonder it is so lopsided. The big market owners don't even have a say?

Between league expansion, recent change of ownership in some markets (Detroit, Atlanta, Warriors, Philly, Nets) plus the NBA owned team (Hornets), big market teams just don't have the votes.

[Mel_13]

So Stern is basically choosing the owners he prefers to make the proposal to the NBPA? No wonder it is so lopsided. The big market owners don't even have a say?


Between league expansion, recent change of ownership in some markets (Detroit, Atlanta, Warriors, Philly, Nets) plus the NBA owned team (Hornets), big market teams just don't have the votes.

How "small market" owners took control:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32834/how-small-market-owners-took-control

[Bruno]

Big marker owners biggest fear was that the implementation of a big revenue sharing system. Even if more money will be shared than in the past, what was said is that the money sharing system will be quite light.

The new CBA makes it harder for big market owners to build a great team by overspending other franchise but it still allows them to have a franchise that generate a lot of money.

All in all, it's not that bad for big market owners. Winning a title will be more difficult but they will still make a lot of money and maybe even a little more than in the past given the pay cut taken by players. It's bad for big market franchises fans because they don't care about their owners making money.

[Bruno]

I'm curious to see when the repeater tax will kick in. If it starts as soon as this year, teams like Lakers and Mavs will be in trouble because they have paid the luxury tax in the previous 4 years.

The team that will be helped the most from the amnesty rule is Orlando. Using it on Arenas will just solve all their luxury tax troubles.

[silverblk mystix]

What do the Lakers have the Spurs haven't gotten? quit your bitching...blame Pop and RDWIC for the shitty pickups they have signed...

fuck matt bonner....fire pop

This.

This is the #1 reason why I don't want an NBA season...Pop and his bullshit ruined the pleasure of watching Spurs basketball for me last year...and the few years before that....

#2--reason....I sincerely hate Stern and his machinations and rigged outcomes and I hope the owners lose so much that they turn on him.

#3) The players are stupid and should have started looking for ways to start their own league...and they should have started looking about five years ago to be ready in case of a lockout.

[baseline bum]

This.

This is the #1 reason why I don't want an NBA season...Pop and his bullshit ruined the pleasure of watching Spurs basketball for me last year...and the few years before that....

#2--reason....I sincerely hate Stern and his machinations and rigged outcomes and I hope the owners lose so much that they turn on him.

#3) The players are stupid and should have started looking for ways to start their own league...and they should have started looking about five years ago to be ready in case of a lockout.

:cry :cry :cry Only a fan when they win titles :cry :cry :cry

[Seventyniner]

Big marker owners biggest fear was that the implementation of a big revenue sharing system. Even if more money will be shared than in the past, what was said is that the money sharing system will be quite light.

What if the new tax rule *is* the revenue sharing, forcing big-market owners to decide between flexing their financial muscle, but having to pay lots of tax (and thereby sharing revenue), or staying under the tax like the rest of the league. The small-market owners may not be able to get competitive balance and heavy revenue sharing, but this tax rule would ensure they get at least one.

[Giuseppe]

^It will be the competitive balance. No owner (((?Cuban may brazen it out?))) is going to pay that penalty. Sit with a calculator for a couple minutes and it's actually physically upsetting. They won't do it. Even the old 1-1 is so foreign to an American business concern, but, they fell into it, it got to be habit, Buss got a regular diet of payback (Titles) out of it so they whistled past the graveyard. This new set is untenable. It was a 20 year run that went by in a blink. But, it's over. And Buss/the guy in Florida are NBA soldiers, not company men per se, but, they know when the jig is up and they'll do the right thing here. Cuban? He'd burn the entire village down to spite himself. He's never soldiered.

[Bruno]

What if the new tax rule *is* the revenue sharing, forcing big-market owners to decide between flexing their financial muscle, but having to pay lots of tax (and thereby sharing revenue), or staying under the tax like the rest of the league. The small-market owners may not be able to get competitive balance and heavy revenue sharing, but this tax rule would ensure they get at least one.

The luxury tax system is mainly a system to keep a competitive balance and not to share revenue even if it did it indirectly. If it was seen as a revenue sharing tool, owner's proposal wouldn't include tools to limit payrolls of luxury tax teams (mini MLE and no S&T).

The main reason why the luxury tax is changing is because owners are scared of Lakers new TV deal. With all this new money incoming, they thought that the old luxury tax wasn't enough to keep Lakers payroll at a reasonable level. Knicks were also a concern.

[Giuseppe]

It's a sea change. It was one way prior to 20 years ago and then it changed for the past 20 years. Now the owners have decided to roll it back. It's a fraternity. Buss won't crap the bed. Stern took care of him during Daddy's & Kobe's divorce, took care of him again during Kobe's rape. It's time for Buss to be still and he'll do it.

[mountainballer]

I will try to add a different view.
IMO it's NOT in the first place a fight (a war) between the league and the union, it's NOT players vs. owners, it's not small markets vs. big markets.
what the league (the owners) want to achieve in the first place is breaking the power and influence of the agents.
this league has become an agents league much more than a players league or an owners league. (or even a fans league)
do we really believe that the whole "we take our talents to South Beach" was based on some friends doing some phone calls? or that the Melodrama works out like this just b/c he cried loud and long enough that he wants to go to NY?
agents have become the major force behind the sceens (they always were powerful, if they played their cards right, but there still was kind of a nuclear balance).
agents power is based mainly on the Bird rights. (even more with the s&t option). most of the most absurd contracts from the last years are NOT MLE signings (to many still are), it's been Bird rights signings. teams more often overpayed their own players to stay than FAs to come in. teams can pay almost any number on bird rights and agents used that fact excessively. how often did we even hear the "disrespect" word, when teams were not willing to overpay when they theoretically could.
the league could terminate Bird rights, but this would also (or maybe even more) hurt the small teams, when it comes to keep the franchise player. (it's never the paying of the Duncans and Durants, that blow the payroll, it the overpaying of the mediocre talents, the borderline starters)
so Bird rights are a holy cow. what to do? make it almost impossible to use Bird rights more than once or twice in a certain time span. no agents can just come up in a negotiation whith the usual "hey, you got his Bird rights, just use it", when this costs the team 3,4 or 5 times the number, that already would have been to much without any taxes.

we always talk about small teams fighting against big market teams. that's only half the truth. why don't the big market teams cry out loud about such proposals? or take the side of the decertification group? it's b/c the big market teams want to reduce the influence of the agents as much as all the other teams.
I think agents (the big 7)realized in the last weeks that it's mainly against them and that's why they panic now. they claim that they would have prefered a decertification for months. why do they push now? owners and league position was well known before. I think they always thought that the new tax rules will be dropped in favour of the split and that this is just a negotiation tactic. when they learned how much weight this point has for the owners, they finally saw that in reality it's an attempt to destroy the foundation of their power.

[Mel_13]

http://twitter.com/#!/ESPNSteinLine

Just heard two more wrinkles in NBA's offer. No. 1: Teams can only add total of $3 mil per SEASON in trades. Previous max: $3M per DEAL

New wrinkle No. 2: Teams would only have 3 days to match offer sheets to restricted FAs like Marc Gasol/Arron Afflalo. Previously had 7 days

[Mel_13]

what the league (the owners) want to achieve in the first place is breaking the power and influence of the agents.

Good post.

The war on the agents has been going on for more than a decade. Their influence peaked in 1998 (the union's executive committee was dominated by David Falk clients) and was among the biggest casualties of the 1999 CBA (the implementation of max salaries and the rookie scale). The 2005 CBA nibbled away a bit more influence (shorter contracts/smaller raises) and the current proposal from ownership clearly has a further erosion of agent influence as one of it's goals.

[Giuseppe]

By restoring competitive balance that act in & of itself at default will cure a myriad of the owner's other concerns.

The money will dry up. What's left will be centralized & every dime accounted for.

It's a new NBA era. As heart wrenching as that is for the players they must reconcile themselves to that reality.

This didn't happen over night. The players were reckless in understanding the evolution of this sea change. They didn't see the tidal wave coming at them. Upon reflection they never stood a chance. They were forsaken by the big market owners who were given their marching orders before this ever started. They stepped aside and permitted Stern and the small market contingent to slaughter the rank & file.

[ElNono]

All in all, it's not that bad for big market owners. Winning a title will be more difficult but they will still make a lot of money and maybe even a little more than in the past given the pay cut taken by players. It's bad for big market franchises fans because they don't care about their owners making money.

Agree, but that also has other consequences. The Lakers TV deal has everything to do with them building and keeping a successful team. Without 4 finals appearances in a row, not sure that amount of money is on the table.

Then there's guys like Cuban that spent to the limit to really go for that championship. Ask any Mavs fan, and they love that Cubes did that. He was as much a fan as any other, aggressively pursuing that 'ship by spending when he had to. He didn't care about turning in coin. Things will change with a system like this, in that I think you'll see a lot less of that aggressiveness. The economics just don't bear it out.

[mountainballer]

Agree, but that also has other consequences. The Lakers TV deal has everything to do with them building and keeping a successful team. Without 4 finals appearances in a row, not sure that amount of money is on the table.


the rule is, whenever we are indoubt about a number, in case of the Lakers, we rather downplay. so it's 2 finals appearances in a row.

[baseline bum]

I will try to add a different view.
IMO it's NOT in the first place a fight (a war) between the league and the union, it's NOT players vs. owners, it's not small markets vs. big markets.
what the league (the owners) want to achieve in the first place is breaking the power and influence of the agents.
this league has become an agents league much more than a players league or an owners league. (or even a fans league)
do we really believe that the whole "we take our talents to South Beach" was based on some friends doing some phone calls? or that the Melodrama works out like this just b/c he cried loud and long enough that he wants to go to NY?
agents have become the major force behind the sceens (they always were powerful, if they played their cards right, but there still was kind of a nuclear balance).
agents power is based mainly on the Bird rights. (even more with the s&t option). most of the most absurd contracts from the last years are NOT MLE signings (to many still are), it's been Bird rights signings. teams more often overpayed their own players to stay than FAs to come in. teams can pay almost any number on bird rights and agents used that fact excessively. how often did we even hear the "disrespect" word, when teams were not willing to overpay when they theoretically could.
the league could terminate Bird rights, but this would also (or maybe even more) hurt the small teams, when it comes to keep the franchise player. (it's never the paying of the Duncans and Durants, that blow the payroll, it the overpaying of the mediocre talents, the borderline starters)
so Bird rights are a holy cow. what to do? make it almost impossible to use Bird rights more than once or twice in a certain time span. no agents can just come up in a negotiation whith the usual "hey, you got his Bird rights, just use it", when this costs the team 3,4 or 5 times the number, that already would have been to much without any taxes.

we always talk about small teams fighting against big market teams. that's only half the truth. why don't the big market teams cry out loud about such proposals? or take the side of the decertification group? it's b/c the big market teams want to reduce the influence of the agents as much as all the other teams.
I think agents (the big 7)realized in the last weeks that it's mainly against them and that's why they panic now. they claim that they would have prefered a decertification for months. why do they push now? owners and league position was well known before. I think they always thought that the new tax rules will be dropped in favour of the split and that this is just a negotiation tactic. when they learned how much weight this point has for the owners, they finally saw that in reality it's an attempt to destroy the foundation of their power.

Removing Bird rights would be devastating to the Spurs. Their real competitive advantage (other than getting lucky and being able to pick Duncan) is their ability to draft, and not having Bird Rights would mean they would need to gut the team every time they pick a Tony Parker or a Manu Ginobili. No one wants to see the situation like Golden State had when they couldn't hold onto Gilbert Arenas and thus got very little out of a great draft pick.

[mountainballer]

Removing Bird rights would be devastating to the Spurs. Their real competitive advantage (other than getting lucky and being able to pick Duncan) is their ability to draft, and not having Bird Rights would mean they would need to gut the team every time they pick a Tony Parker or a Manu Ginobili. No one wants to see the situation like Golden State had when they couldn't hold onto Gilbert Arenas and thus got very little out of a great draft pick.

that's what I said.

[Bruno]

Agree, but that also has other consequences. The Lakers TV deal has everything to do with them building and keeping a successful team. Without 4 finals appearances in a row, not sure that amount of money is on the table.


I disagree.

First, it's a 20 years deal and nobody knows how good Lakers will be in 4 or 5 years.
Second, the team with the biggest revenue is the Knicks, a team that hasn't won a playoff series for more than a decade. http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/32/basketball-valuations-11_land.html

TV deals that could be hurt by this new CBA are national TV deals. A final with small market teams will do less TV ratings.

[ElNono]

the rule is, whenever we are indoubt about a number, in case of the Lakers, we rather downplay. so it's 2 finals appearances in a row.

:lol

[ElNono]

I disagree.

First, it's a 20 years deal and nobody knows how good Lakers will be in 4 or 5 years.

I'll agree to disagree on this. While it's true you can't predict how they're going to do over the years, it's clear that the management on the team would invest what it took to have a winning team, and the system allowed them to do that. Big money in sponsorship is associated with winners. Just being in a big market isn't enough (see Clippers, or the Nets who were able to negotiate a great 20-year TV deal with YES during their peak year in 2002).


Second, the team with the biggest revenue is the Knicks, a team that hasn't won a playoff series for more than a decade. http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/32/basketball-valuations-11_land.html

Knicks are owned by Cablevision. Their TV deal is an integral part of the business. This is actually going to be a problem for players/union going forward too. IIRC, the Lakers deal also include a stake on the new TV station, and Boston did the same thing with their last TV deal. Under that arrangement, it's going to be extremely difficult to determine exactly what the income is.


TV deals that could be hurt by this new CBA are national TV deals. A final with small market teams will do less TV ratings.

This I agree with.

[Bruno]

I'll agree to disagree on this. While it's true you can't predict how they're going to do over the years, it's clear that the management on the team would invest what it took to have a winning team, and the system allowed them to do that. Big money in sponsorship is associated with winners. Just being in a big market isn't enough (see Clippers, or the Nets who were able to negotiate a great 20-year TV deal with YES during their peak year in 2002).

First, Do you realize that when Lakers signed their new TV contract, there were rumors about hard cap?
Second, check the Forbes list I've given to you and you will see the correlation between size market and revenues.
Third, money isn't enough to have a successful team. Knicks were a lottery team paying $50M in luxury tax few years ago.
Fourth, do you think a company will invest $3B over 20 years over something as unreliable as success on the court?

[baseline bum]

that's what I said.

It's not really what you said; it completely kills the Spurs. Look at what could have happened in the early 2000s. The Spurs would have tried to use Bird Rights to sign Derek Anderson, since he was the best 2 guard they had since Gervin and since they desperately needed scoring in the backcourt. All of a sudden Ginobili comes in and blows up and the Spurs lose him in 04 because they used their 2 Bird slots on Duncan and Anderson. Anderson is really tough to trade because a Bird slot was used on him. And then when Parker's contract comes up in 2005? I guess they could have gotten around the Ginobili problem by letting Robinson walk to New York, but in 2001 they don't know Ginobili is that good yet.

[Bruno]

I don't think reducing agents power is the primary goal. Primary goals for owners are making more money an having a more balanced league.

A side effect of these goals is that it reduces agents power. I'm sure franchises are happy to see that effect but it isn't what has driven this lockout.

[Bruno]

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/33244688


If the union did decertify, Stern predicted the move would backfire.

"If the union is not in existence, then neither are 4 billion dollars worth of guaranteed contracts that are entered into under condition that there's a union, Stern said. "So if the agents insist on playing with fire, my guess is that they would get themselves burned."

Stern is a bad-ass. :lol
It's far from sure owners would have the right to void contracts if there is a desertification. It was in fact something the league wanted to be settled in their complaint made in August about desertification.

[mountainballer]

It's not really what you said; it completely kills the Spurs. Look at what could have happened in the early 2000s. The Spurs would have tried to use Bird Rights to sign Derek Anderson, since he was the best 2 guard they had since Gervin and since they desperately needed scoring in the backcourt. All of a sudden Ginobili comes in and blows up and the Spurs lose him in 04 because they used their 2 Bird slots on Duncan and Anderson. Anderson is really tough to trade because a Bird slot was used on him. And then when Parker's contract comes up in 2005? I guess they could have gotten around the Ginobili problem by letting Robinson walk to New York, but in 2001 they don't know Ginobili is that good yet.

you realized that I wasn't talking about the Spurs? and I wasn't proposing a slot system for bird rights (interesting option though), I said that the new tax will make it very expensive, if a team overpays by using the bird rights on a regular base.
and btw. Manu was NOT resinged on Bird rights. the whole Mercer and Hedo deal only happened b/c it guaranteed the Spurs enough cap room for Manu in 2004.

again. it's not about a few big contracts for every team. it's about this almost automatic use of Bird rights for resignings that leads to many smaller but still overpaying contracts. (you think Bonner gets this contract on the open market, or if it costs the Spurs twice or more the number that he gets? Bonner would be a typical minimum 1 million per veteran, based on what he delivers)

[LkrFan]

I disagree.

First, it's a 20 years deal and nobody knows how good Lakers will be in 4 or 5 years.

:rollin

The Lakers have existed for over 60 years and only missed the playoffs 5 times. Of course they will be good in 4 or 5 years. :lol

[LkrFan]

First, Do you realize that when Lakers signed their new TV contract, there were rumors about hard cap?
Second, check the Forbes list I've given to you and you will see the correlation between size market and revenues.
Third, money isn't enough to have a successful team. Knicks were a lottery team paying $50M in luxury tax few years ago.
Fourth, do you think a company will invest $3B over 20 years over something as unreliable as success on the court?

Don't compare the Knicks to the Lakers. The Knicks last title was when Nixon was in office. The Lakers rang 10 times since then. :lol

[Seventyniner]

Don't compare the Knicks to the Lakers. The Knicks last title was when Nixon was in office. The Lakers rang 10 times since then. :lol

Ironically, though, the Knicks might just be the Lakers' equal in revenue, which is the whole point of this exercise. Big market teams make loads of money, whether they're good or not.

[Nathan89]

:rollin

The Lakers have existed for over 60 years and only missed the playoffs 5 times. Of course they will be good in 4 or 5 years. :lol

Kobe being responsible for some of that.

[benefactor]

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/33244688



Stern is a bad-ass. :lol
It's far from sure owners would have the right to void contracts if there is a desertification. It was in fact something the league wanted to be settled in their complaint made in August about desertification.
That's one load of shit bluff by Stern. No owner is going to just void contracts and let players walk.

[Giuseppe]

Kobe being responsible for some of that.

As he's responsible for:::

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

tee, hee.

[DPG21920]

Quit with the repetitive sh*t on this side of the board. I'm in no mood today ^

[lmbebo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/sports/basketball/rumors-abound-regarding-final-nba-proposal.html?_r=1

I guess someone from the league leaked the NBA proposal to the NYT.

Article discussing the league proposal.

[Giuseppe]

Quit with the repetitive sh*t on this side of the board. I'm in no mood today ^

Bend over. I'll get ya in the fuckin' mood today ^.

[Giuseppe]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/sports/basketball/rumors-abound-regarding-final-nba-proposal.html?_r=1

I guess someone from the league leaked the NBA proposal to the NYT.

Article discussing the league proposal.

:lol Media carrying that water to the fire on behalf of Stern & NYC. They've just about bled out this end of the cypher and it's time to run back to the other end and get this signed so the money can keep comin' in.

[baseline bum]

The players being able to terminate the CBA after 6 years is an improvement, but in the spirit of the 50/50 split this proposal is centered on, they should move the opt-out time to 5 years.

[ElNono]

First, Do you realize that when Lakers signed their new TV contract, there were rumors about hard cap?

Sure. There were also rumors that the union wouldn't accept that.


Second, check the Forbes list I've given to you and you will see the correlation between size market and revenues.

I did look at the list. And I gather you didn't look past the first page. Teams like Atlanta, Denver, Philly, Nets or Clippers are in much bigger markets than San Antonio or Toronto, yet their revenues are smaller in every case, sometimes substantially smaller.


Third, money isn't enough to have a successful team. Knicks were a lottery team paying $50M in luxury tax few years ago.

Never claimed that. I claimed the exact opposite: Success brings more money. "Big money in sponsorship is associated with winners."


Fourth, do you think a company will invest $3B over 20 years over something as unreliable as success on the court?

No doubt about it. Long term sponsorship gambles are handed out all the time. Look at Nike betting on Lebron before he even entered the league for an example. And when it comes to locking in a popular and successful 'product', you always have to pay premium. Plus it's not like there's no contingency clauses in those contracts in case one side doesn't fulfill their obligations or if the economy changes drastically. Wouldn't be the first renegotiated contract.

[ElNono]

Stern "void-contracts" treat has been there since day 1. As Bruno correctly said, it's part of their case who the judge recently deemed "thin". But the case is still ongoing. The CNNSI lawyer that normally comments on NBA matters called the claim "innovative", meaning, it never been tried before, and he didn't see much merit on it.

[Giuseppe]

Media/MSM Media doesn't want this to go to the courts. They lose then. They make a dollar & dime now with these homespun negotiations. But, not in court. That's why Media wants this to end here. It's played out to the end. Stern says it. & Media knows it. Now they can suck the money from the fresh other end.

[ChumpDumper]

lol the media conspiracy spreads to all the forums.

[Giuseppe]

lol the media conspiracy spreads to all the forums.

If the shoe fits.

[ChumpDumper]

If the shoe fits.It doesn't.

Anywhere.

[Giuseppe]

In my book it does.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Media/MSM Media doesn't want this to go to the courts. They lose then. They make a dollar & dime now with these homespun negotiations. But, not in court. That's why Media wants this to end here. It's played out to the end. Stern says it. & Media knows it. Now they can suck the money from the fresh other end.

The flaw in the notion on any forum is how much credibility and play an outlet would get by exposing such a conspiracy. People would eat that shit up just like the NewsCorp story.

[ChumpDumper]

In my book it does.Your book is poorly written fiction.

[Giuseppe]

The flaw in the notion on any forum is how much credibility and play an outlet would get by exposing such a conspiracy. People would eat that shit up just like the NewsCorp story.

It'd be a penny wise and pound foolish effort.

It's like when Limbaugh's people sometimes the morning after will loop a dozen or so Media entity's news stories together. It's hilarious. They all use the same exact verbiage.

[ChumpDumper]

It'd be a penny wise and pound foolish effort.

It's like when Limbaugh's people sometimes the morning after will loop a dozen or so Media entity's news stories together. It's hilarious. They all use the same exact verbiage.The Daily Show does that with Limbaugh and their ilk as well.

The fact you don't realize that is hilarious.

[Giuseppe]

The Daily Show does that with Limbaugh and their ilk as well.

The fact you don't realize that is hilarious.

I'm pleased that we're in agreement here on centralized Media in this country, Dumper.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm pleased that we're in agreement here on centralized Media in this country, Dumper.I'm pleased that you don't even know how stupid you look right now.

[Giuseppe]

I'm pleased that you don't even know how stupid you look right now.

I got a pulpit.:toast

[ChumpDumper]

I got a pulpit.:toastYou're an idiot. :toast

[Giuseppe]

You're an idiot. :toast

Got you by the short hairs.:toast

[ChumpDumper]

Got you by the short hairs.:toastIn your dreams. Of course I'm probably also much younger in your dreams, perv. :toast

[Giuseppe]

In your dreams. Of course I'm probably also much younger in your dreams, perv. :toast

You are a sweetheart in my dreams.:toast

[spurs10]

There has been a lot negativity floating around about the revised deal on the table Some of it, like the D League demotions, has proven to be false. I wonder where these rumors are coming from and if they aren't predisposing the players into voting no on the deal. This is going to be interesting, as the players must be aware that the deal isn't going to get better down the road in all probability.

[baseline bum]

There has been a lot negativity floating around about the revised deal on the table Some of it, like the D League demotions, has proven to be false. I wonder where these rumors are coming from and if they aren't predisposing the players into voting no on the deal. This is going to be interesting, as the players must be aware that the deal isn't going to get better down the road in all probability.

Seems kind of like the DLeague Rule has been discussed to try to push them to vote for this package. Like it's part of the 47% + hard cap threat from the NBA or something.

[Giuseppe]

Seems kind of like the DLeague Rule has been discussed to try to push them to vote for this package. Like it's part of the 47% + hard cap threat from the NBA or something.

Bum with the goods. Not the way Media wants us to see the sudden shadow of this DLeague materiel, but, refreshing nonetheless.

[spurs10]

Seems kind of like the DLeague Rule has been discussed to try to push them to vote for this package. Like it's part of the 47% + hard cap threat from the NBA or something.
Pretty good threat! Do you think the NBA is ever going to give them a better deal if they walk tomorrow. Other than losing 4 billion for sure, I'm not sure decertification is the answer either. It's not a slam dunk they would prevail in court, though I would give the edge to the players.
:flag:

[DPG21920]

Fact is, this will all be explained and detailed to the players if they are to vote. The deal needed pretty significant give backs from the owners and this deal isn't very different overall and that's the problem. They gave on the perimeter, but the outcome was still the same and the players aren't buying it.

[Mr. Body]

The owners haven't negotiated at all, or only insubstantially. They keep insisting on the same things, then demanding the demands are going to get worse. It's like the GOP holding the country hostage last summer on the debt ceiling bullshit.

[spurs10]

The owners haven't negotiated at all, or only insubstantially. They keep insisting on the same things, then demanding the demands are going to get worse. It's like the GOP holding the country hostage last summer on the debt ceiling bullshit.
Good analogy. I only wonder if they will gain much from losing an entire season or more. It's plain to see the players have been doing all the compromising. The idea of it being a 6 year deal instead of 10 is a lot better, however it will probably another lock out in six years.

[Giuseppe]

The owners haven't negotiated at all, or only insubstantially. They keep insisting on the same things, then demanding the demands are going to get worse. It's like the GOP holding the country hostage last summer on the debt ceiling bullshit.

Or, Hussein Obama as POTUS.

[Bender]

whether the players or the owners are in the right, the NBA is taking a huge hit in public opinion.

After most of the articles regarding the status of negotiations, most comments are geared toward "who cares, NBA sucks", "players are overpaid babies", "college ball is better", "I hope the NBA goes away and never comes back" etc etc

[Dex]

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/id/7223340/etan-thomas-questions-nba-labor-negotiations

If this article is indicative of how the players feel (and gauging from the Twitterverse, it seems to be), there won't be any deal done this week.

[DPG21920]

This Q&A on Twitter was one of the most infuriating things I have ever seen (relatively speaking obviously). I gave it to them pretty good (not that they really care :lol). I'll go and post some of the stuff here in a minute.

[DJ Mbenga]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/nba%20proposal%2011-11-2011.pdf

[DPG21920]

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter1.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter2.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter3.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter4.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter5.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter6.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter7.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter8.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter9.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter10.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter11.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter12.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter13.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter14.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter15.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter16.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter17.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter18.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twitter19.jpg

[baseline bum]

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/id/7223340/etan-thomas-questions-nba-labor-negotiations

If this article is indicative of how the players feel (and gauging from the Twitterverse, it seems to be), there won't be any deal done this week.

Thomas is going the Frank Luntz route by labeling the owners with the hated CEO word. :lol

[DPG21920]

This is real. This is from the NBA.

_C4zaisIRxQ

[baseline bum]

So the NBA projects inflation and that's where the rise in salaries over 10 years comes from? :rollin

[baseline bum]

That chat was like listening to this fucker

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2008/images/20030425007100510.jpg

[DPG21920]

It was absurd. :lol It's hilarious because the posters on here sound exactly like them:

"Greedy ass players could just end this lockout. They have the power, but they won't do it!!!!!!!!"

NBA: "Players can end this lockout by accepting"

Everyone else: "Uhhhhh, don't you have the power as well by accepting their terms to end it?"

[ElNono]

NBA hires Goebbels as new communications director (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0)

http://www.nndb.com/people/201/000025126/goebbels4-sized.jpg

[DPG21920]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/11/14/sports/basketball/20111114-nba-proposals.html?src=tp

Link to full proposal...

[baseline bum]

It doesn't look like the owners are going to get serious about having a season until the new year at least. :lol

[Mr. Body]

What a cluster fuck. I'm getting close to walking away from the NBA. What a bunch of entitled rich fucks. I can't stand getting lied to.

[DPG21920]

I love how they present the fact they will guarantee the players 50% like some benefit.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

The owners are so full of shit. I can't believe they're sticking to their guns with that "300 million" dollar loss, that's a load of crap. The players shouldn't accept the paycut, because the loss of money has nothing to do with their performance. You don't demote an employee who has done his job consistently well.

[Mr. Body]

The owners are so full of shit. I can't believe they're sticking to their guns with that "300 million" dollar loss, that's a load of crap. The players shouldn't accept the paycut, because the loss of money has nothing to do with their performance. You don't demote an employee who has done his job consistently well.

Unfortunately layoffs and benefit cuts are rife in our system, when plenty of times the fuck-ups are the fault of ownership or CEOs. You have smoe god-awful decision making with the consequences farmed out to the rank and file. Meanwhile, the rich farks just walk away with golden parachutes. David Stern's little empire looks like just another example.

[ElNono]

IMO, the big elephant in the room is revenue sharing.

League wants to frame it as player movement but that's just the butthurtness from some owners after the Heatles/Carmelo fiasco.

The reality is that the league over-expanded. Without some kind of subsidy from bigger market teams (like in the NFL, MLB) small market teams are just not going to be viable in this economic climate.

Also, they keep harping how the "system was broken" but this CBA proposal keeps most of the exceptions and the league also has been showing a healthy growth even during the economic crisis. Can't be that broken if you're still showing growth.

[ElNono]

Over-expansion also goes into talent dilution. It's no surprise the marginally good talent wants to go to the big markets. There just isn't that many franchise talent to go around.

[Ice009]

The players shouldn't accept the paycut, because the loss of money has nothing to do with their performance. You don't demote an employee who has done his job consistently well.

What about RJ? Bonner? A lot of players suck, if I was their employer I'd fire them. You can't do that though as they're locked into a guaranteed contract.

I agree that you don't demote and employee who has done his job consistently well, but how can you say that about a lot of the NBA players. What do you base a certain player's performance on? What's the comparison?

If you want to make it like the real workplace, then each player needs to be evaluated individually and not have a guaranteed contract.

[ElNono]

Bonner?

Holt willingly re-signed Bonner to a 3 year deal when he could've let him walk. I don't know how it works in your business, but in mine, you pay for the bad decisions.

It's not like you can't trade players for different talent.

[ElNono]

Don't get me wrong, not all players are saints. But this should be a shared sacrifice, not just put everything on the player's backs.

[DJ Mbenga]

yeah. lot of quotes from the insiders always say the lakers deal scared the league. contraction should have been the solution but good luck telling people give us your team and let us take it away forever.

[ElNono]

yeah. lot of quotes from the insiders always say the lakers deal scared the league. contraction should have been the solution but good luck telling people give us your team and let us take it away forever.

Well, these are the same guys that didn't hesitate the give the middle finger to Seattle when the city didn't want to build a new arena for them.

[spurs10]

My guess is the way Hunter and Fisher present this offer will have a lot to do with it's success or failure. I think they both know what the likely outcome of refusing this offer will be. If they think this is about as good as we're getting from these guys, then it will probably pass. If they favor decertification or disclaimer of interest, this thing is going to court and I'll need a new hobby. I realize there is no waiting period for "disclaimer of interest", but don't really know much about this tactic legally.

[Mr. Body]

It's a bit hilarious that Stern keeps saying the system changes are there to help competitive balance and let small teams compete for championships, when for years and years that's been basically like eating manure for him. The league wants Los Angeles and Boston in the finals every year, or Miami. That's it. Any changes are definitely NOT to help the small market teams, and maybe only the benighted small market owners actually think they are.

[ElNono]

lol Stern's favorite finals "Lakers vs Lakers"

But we're just trying to make the league more competitive :cry :cry :cry

[ElNono]

My guess is the way Hunter and Fisher present this offer will have a lot to do with it's success or failure. I think they both know what the likely outcome of refusing this offer will be. If they think this is about as good as we're getting from these guys, then it will probably pass. If they favor decertification or disclaimer of interest, this thing is going to court and I'll need a new hobby. I realize there is no waiting period for "disclaimer of interest", but don't really know much about this tactic legally.

I don't know about that. Throughout this thing it looked like owners didn't mind losing the season, but now they come up with this proposal and a rushed 72 game season, which to me means they'll try to cram as many games as they can in whatever time they can salvage.

I would suspect that if the union does not accept this proposal, they'll cancel December, including the Christmas games. And they'll be right back to the negotiating table, despite Stern's rhetoric to the contrary.

Don't forget that in 1999 the agreement didn't pan out until January. And once an agreement is in place, there's no reason not to try to get some money coming in.

Even if the union gets the votes to decertify, then there's another 45 days or so to keep churning at it. I don't think "disclaimer of interest" will pan out, tbh. I'm sure agents will push for it, but there has to be some major discontent from the players to force Hunter into it.

[baseline bum]

I don't know about that. Throughout this thing it looked like owners didn't mind losing the season, but now they come up with this proposal and a rushed 72 game season, which to me means they'll try to cram as many games as they can in whatever time they can salvage.


Of course they want to get in the maximum number of games. It makes me laugh so hard when I read how Stern wouldn't let a 50 game season happen again if the agreement came late like in 1999.

[lmbebo]

I think when the players reject this offer. We'll see the decertification process begin. That'll put a time limit of like 45 days to still negotiate a deal.

I'm not sure the league would do a 50 game season again.

Either way. I think when this proposal is rejected. They will have to begin again. I think owners will come with a much worse proposal next. 1 step forward, 3 steps back.

Players will not get what they want. Its the sad truth.

[baseline bum]

750 regular season games + 90-100 playoff games? I'm guessing the NBA will do that in a second if a deal can get done in January but not before.

[therealtruth]

The owners need something to protect themselves from each other. If Cuban, Arison, or Buss can afford to spend alot of money to take good players it sometimes forces the small market teams into paying more money than necessary to try to keep a player. We saw it last summer with Rudy Gay, Joe Johnson, and Carlos Boozer. Those contracts were ridiculous. Yet, if they didn't overpay some team would have.

[Duncan2177]

The players are so unbelievably screwed if they decertify. Their contracts become void, therefore they have no case in an anti-trust lawsuit. Then the owners can literally do whatever the hell they want, and can essentially "fire" the players because they are no longer a union (basically as if they were just an every day worker). If the players honestly think the league is going to back down from their offer they are out of their minds. David Stern himself is a lawyer, a very very good one, and I can imagine they have an insane amount of the best lawyers at their disposal. The players can't win this one, might as well stop the bleeding.

[spurs10]

I don't know about that. Throughout this thing it looked like owners didn't mind losing the season, but now they come up with this proposal and a rushed 72 game season, which to me means they'll try to cram as many games as they can in whatever time they can salvage.

I would suspect that if the union does not accept this proposal, they'll cancel December, including the Christmas games. And they'll be right back to the negotiating table, despite Stern's rhetoric to the contrary.

Don't forget that in 1999 the agreement didn't pan out until January. And once an agreement is in place, there's no reason not to try to get some money coming in.

Even if the union gets the votes to decertify, then there's another 45 days or so to keep churning at it. I don't think "disclaimer of interest" will pan out, tbh. I'm sure agents will push for it, but there has to be some major discontent from the players to force Hunter into it.
There is some serious poker playing going on here. That's what I'm wondering, if Hunter and Fisher think Stern is bluffing with his 'we are finished negotiating' and 'it's only getting worse from here.' He does seem like he's desperate to push this through. Is it because he knows it's now or never, or perhaps these owners want the season more than they've let on.

[ElNono]

The players are so unbelievably screwed if they decertify. Their contracts become void, therefore they have no case in an anti-trust lawsuit.

AFAIK, the whole void-contract story is just another treat/wishful thinking from Stern. There's a long and rich history of labor cases, including union decertification, in this country and voiding contracts never happened before.

Not to mention that the owners would be under severe risk, because they would need to put all their chips on that claim and if it doesn't pan out, they would be on the hook for a lot of dough.

Let's be frank here. If decertification would be such a bad strategy, an union like the NFLPA would've never gone that way. It's not a sure fire strategy either, but not a horrible option if you're getting buttfucked anyways.

[ElNono]

There is some serious poker playing going on here. That's what I'm wondering, if Hunter and Fisher think Stern is bluffing with his 'we are finished negotiating' and 'it's only getting worse from here.' He does seem like he's desperate to push this through. Is it because he knows it's now or never, or perhaps these owners want the season more than they've let on.

Well, this is probably the third or fourth 'deadline' or 'take it or leave it' the league throws out there. But what's the league going to do? Worsen the offer? Cancel the season? Then what?

As long as the union exists, they have to sit down and negotiate. There's only one exit to the lockout, and it's at the negotiating table.

[ElNono]

Doesn't look like this will end well (http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/33307247)

[ElNono]

Latest from Woj: Latest offer a PR stunt?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_labor_111411

[Jacob1983]

How can a judge force Stern, his minions, and the owners to give the players a better deal? I just don't get how going to court is going to force the owners and Stern to give the players a good deal.

[mathbzh]

How can a judge force Stern, his minions, and the owners to give the players a better deal? I just don't get how going to court is going to force the owners and Stern to give the players a good deal.

Under the previous CBA some stupid owners where giving 20M$/year contract to Lewis/Arenas/Johnson.
If a judge says the salary cap is illegal, what make you think no owner would propose similar contract (if not bigger)?

[ChuckD]

AFAIK, the whole void-contract story is just another treat/wishful thinking from Stern. There's a long and rich history of labor cases, including union decertification, in this country and voiding contracts never happened before.

Not to mention that the owners would be under severe risk, because they would need to put all their chips on that claim and if it doesn't pan out, they would be on the hook for a lot of dough.

Let's be frank here. If decertification would be such a bad strategy, an union like the NFLPA would've never gone that way. It's not a sure fire strategy either, but not a horrible option if you're getting buttfucked anyways.

Not to mention that owners like MIA would probably outright rebel and maybe even start their own league if the Heatles were to be broken up. They can't just void some of the contracts, and there are owners who would NOT sit still for this when they have sat still for everything so far.

Holt should actually fight this tooth and nail, because when the dust settles, he's going to be one of the owners black balled by the big agents. If all contracts get voided, he's not going to have a team in any real sense.

[ChuckD]

How can a judge force Stern, his minions, and the owners to give the players a better deal? I just don't get how going to court is going to force the owners and Stern to give the players a good deal.

The judge would actually write the new CBA, and the players are banking that he will not drag them down from 57% to 50% and essentially institute a hard cap. He would also have the power to subpoena those other figures that the owners don't want to show the players, like ancilliary income from related non-BRI sources.

[Seventyniner]

AFAIK, the whole void-contract story is just another treat/wishful thinking from Stern. There's a long and rich history of labor cases, including union decertification, in this country and voiding contracts never happened before.

How many of those cases involved multi-year, guaranteed contracts?

Perhaps the league would be able to void all salaries beyond 2011-2012?

[Rito3d30]

http://i44.tinypic.com/mlr3b8.jpg

[mountainballer]

doesn't mean much yet, but it's a beginning. first time in months that the words "we accept" was used.

[TimmehC]

They can still vote to approve the deal during the decert process, IIRC. In which case, approving the deal doesn't mean a whole lot.

[Lukor]

doesn't mean much yet, but it's a beginning. first time in months that the words "we accept" was used.

He didnt actually say "we accept" lol.

[mountainballer]

He didnt actually say "we accept" lol.

oh well.

[mountainballer]

interesting: Kobe went to NY. he isn't a player representative, but he is the most famous from the group that want to accept the deal. I can see Fisher call his best pal Kobe for some guarding.
(which could mean that Fisher wants to accept the deal)

[DPG21920]

Things could look quite different in the NBA if this is accepted. I want them to play, but understand and support if they reject.

[Lukor]

Things could look quite different in the NBA if this is accepted. I want them to play, but understand and support if they reject.

For the first 2 years things would actually look almost the same, the heavy changes dont kick in until year 3.

[spurs10]

Things could look quite different in the NBA if this is accepted. I want them to play, but understand and support if they reject.
My sentiments exactly. I'm sure it's a tough call......

[Seventyniner]

Do the players get paid per game, so that each game missed is 1/82 of their salary, or by time? I've heard that players usually get 12 checks: 2 each month from November to April, so they'll miss their first check tomorrow, 1/12 of their salary if it's done by time.

Either way, it's no wonder Kobe wants to play. His salary is one of the highest in the league, so he's losing the most.

[slick'81]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/1108/nba_g_players_288v.jpg

[InRareForm]

^ wtf at that pic lol

[Bruno]

Players are screwed. They've been passive during the whole negotiation process and are now where owners wanted them to be.

[DesignatedT]

meeting over. answer coming soon

[eric365]

union's conference coming : http://www.nba.com/home/live1/

[ElNono]

:lol backpack

[ElNono]

Bonner :bang

[ElNono]

Rondo with grandma's eyeglasses

[ElNono]

DENIEDDDD... straight to the courts!

[ElNono]

:wow Hunter showing some dignity!

[ElNono]

Now the shit hits the fan... lawsuits tomorrow?

[ElNono]

I don't think "disclaimer of interest" will pan out, tbh.

:lmao

[slick'81]

wow no season

[benefactor]

Decertification here we come.

[Duncan2177]

Fucken idiots

[ElNono]

Now it becomes all lawyer-esque... oh, well... good luck to both sides.

[slick'81]

aww soo all those players with millions in the bank get to go home poor guys

[cd98]

Thank you for essentially cancelling season. After a year of withdrawal (from NBA basketball), I will be cured of my addiction and never have to watch it again.

[WeNeedLength]

aww soo all those players with millions in the bank get to go home poor guys

They should have to share with the millions of citizens whose careers depend on an NBA season. Such bullshit. :ihit

[Seventyniner]

Why are the system issues such a hassle? Players are guaranteed 50% of BRI, and no system changes could affect that. Why would the players' union care so much which players get how much of that 50%?

[DPG21920]

Really ^? How are people mad at the players? If the owners negotiate we have a season. Still can btw.

[eric365]

F*ck the owners. They got their 50% and they were about to get a lot of sytem issues in their favor. They just had to agree on 2 or 3 system issues

They felt they could have even more and made almost no concession. No way the players could have agreed to take it this hard because the owners would have continued the same way for the next CBA in 6 years

[Lukor]

Really ^? How are people mad at the players? If the owners negotiate we have a season. Still can btw.

There's nobody to negotiate with anymore. The Union no longer represents the players dude.

[eric365]

And btw, lol at Rondo glasses. He looked like Steve Urkel

[ElNono]

Well, we get to see the 'void-contracts' theory in action, I guess...

[ElNono]

There's nobody to negotiate with anymore. The Union no longer represents the players dude.

The union can re-convene eventually. That's what happened with the NFL.

[cd98]

Really ^? How are people mad at the players? If the owners negotiate we have a season. Still can btw.

I'm mad at owners that refuse to allow a season in their tax-funded stadiums. I'm mad at players because they feel cheated about getting paid millions of dollars to play basketball in Minnesota or New Orleans. I think we would all be comfortable living in any of the NBA cities for 15 years if it meant we'd make millions.

[ElNono]

Both sides obviously have a hand in this... don't forget agents either... but Mel_13 is right that Hunter should've seen this coming, and should've moved earlier towards this.

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
This is Stern's worst nightmare. Owners could've mildly relented on few system issues, and ended this weeks ago. Now, all hell breaks loose.

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
The players hired David Boies, a top anti-trust attorney. He handled NFL claim, and several top cases.

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Once union leadership saw that players didn't want this deal, would decertify, they climbed on board the dissolving of union.

[Bruno]

Well, fuck. :bang

[Spurs9]

Is it true all the contracts are gone now, since they have clauses that the player needs to be in a Union? I thought I saw a video yesterday talking about that, in the ballpark of 4billion

[ElNono]

Is it true all the contracts are gone now, since they have clauses that the player needs to be in a Union? I thought I saw a video yesterday talking about that, in the ballpark of 4billion

Well, the NBA will have to argue that in court in front of a judge. And the judge has to agree. It really gets hairy now, both sides.

Plus players ain't getting checks as it is, so...

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
This was the path agents pleaded Hunter to take in July, when it was clear the NBA would never agree to a deal the players would accept.

[Spurs9]

So if we do have a season next year it will be a insane free market?:lmao

[eric365]

At least it means that top NBA players waiting to see if the lockout lasts will now go in Euroleague
KD, Kobe, Dirk etc... It will be fun to watch euroleague this year

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Fucking ridiculous. to be honest, who gives a shit about the "unfair" deal the players are getting, right now, there is about to be no season. I don't give a rat's ass about the players, I don't know them personally, and their philanthropic work isn't enough for me to care, I don't give a rats ass about the owners, because they're obviously fat aristocratic fuckwads who don't know when to fold.

Nothing will come from taking it to the courts. Let's see the NBA get replacement players. Death to the rich.

[ElNono]

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Union hires famed attorney David Boies to help file antitrust suit against the NBA. Like the NFLPA, union will now become trade association

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Derek Fisher: a lot of individual players have a lot at stake...but it was important to get a deal for players that follow.

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Hunter: lawsuit likely filed in next 48 hours. Seeking summary judgment, not injunction

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Hunter: we have to live with the jurisdiction

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Players who will be plaintiffs in lawsuit have not been chosen.

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Hunter: it was a system in which we couldn't function

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
For sports fans who aren't familiar...David Boies argued on behalf of VP Al Gore in 2000 presidential election fight...

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Boies also argued w/former solicitor general Ted Olsen on behalf of plaintiffs in California suing to overturn Prop. 8 anti gay rights law

[ElNono]

YahooSportsNBA Yahoo! Sports NBA
Kevin Durant could sign with overseas team next week if NBA lockout continues. From @SpearsNBAYahoo: yhoo.it/rYfFwu

[ElNono]

I just want to hear what Stern/Silver have to say now...

[Giuseppe]

For the first 2 years things would actually look almost the same, the heavy changes dont kick in until year 3.

& that was by design to pull the black man's pants down. It's institutionalized racist code.

[ElNono]

NBA season in jeopardy after union rejects deal (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/chi-nba-season-in-jeopardy-after-union-rejects-deal-20111114,0,2488189.story)

[I. Hustle]

So, are all contracts null and void? I hope not. I don't want to hear ddduuuuhhhhh let's go get Kobe, Lebron, Durant, etc. Most of the idiots on here want the Spurs to after those guys even when they are under contract.

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Keyon Dooling on potential of losing season: "I'm an older guy, and I can't get a year back. But this is bigger than playing basketball..."

[Giuseppe]

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Derek Fisher: a lot of individual players have a lot at stake...but it was important to get a deal for players that follow.


If for no other reason:::

this

[I. Hustle]

LOL LIke those guys were worried about the players that will be coming into the league after them. Boochit.

[Giuseppe]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
This was the path agents pleaded Hunter to take in July, when it was clear the NBA would never agree to a deal the players would accept.

But, Hunter had to see it. He did the right thing.

[eric365]

@WojYahooNBA
When Stern comes out on his TV networks soon, expect him to strongly threaten the voiding of players contracts.

[ElNono]

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
We're descending into $400/hr land, but simply: disclaimer immediately ends union, allows immediate filing of antitrust suit...

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Players had already given up all the money -- $3 billion -- and the fight left was largely over freedom of movement.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Yep, I believe all contracts are null and void. There's two things than can play out, one: Most of the players return to their teams. Two: The NBA will be in complete disarray, with three teams just stacked with super stars, and every other team with role players.

Can't wait.

[ElNono]

^^^ They're not until a judge says so. As of right now, they're not.

[Giuseppe]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
and the fight left was largely over freedom of movement.

Been nothing else since day one. Media coming in late the last 72 hours crunching numbers to retard the truth was unconscionable.

[ElNono]

The good news is things will move forward now. It might take time, but since the union was not going to take what the owners were offering and the owners were adamant not to change their conditions, further negotiations was a waste of time. The "disclaimer of interest" was another good move to accelerate proceedings. I didn't think Hunter had it in him, tbh.

[I. Hustle]

I guess we'll watch the Lakers - Knicks - Heat - Mavs. 4 Team league and everyone else will just be practice.
I bet we keep Bonner though and Spurs sign him to a 10 yr contract.

[DPG21920]

Its really not that surprising to me (I think both Nono and I called it), but it's very sad. This has gone from terrible to horrific and it's all own the owners.

[ElNono]

I guess we'll watch the Lakers - Knicks - Heat - Mavs. 4 Team league and everyone else will just be practice.
I bet we keep Bonner though and Spurs sign him to a 10 yr contract.

:lol

[I. Hustle]

Its really not that surprising to me (I think both Nono and I called it), but it's very sad. This has gone from terrible to horrific and it's all own the owners.

I'll agree that it's on the owners because of the last CBA. They gave the players too damn much last time.

[ElNono]

And people thinking it's just players vs owners are forgetting fairly powerful agents behind the players. They'll likely be footing a good portion of the bill for the lawyer's services here.

[Mel_13]

Good for the players. They were given a choice between abject capitulation or a principled fight. They have chosen to fight despite the fact that the narrow self-interests of most of the current membership would have been better served by taking the deal the NBA put on the table.

The players have been poorly served by Billy Hunter. I would hope that steps are taken to completely sever his relationship with the players. He has utterly failed to protect their interests.

In the end, the hard line owners have gotten what they wanted all along. I hope they come to regret putting the future of the NBA in the hands of lawyers and judges.

[ElNono]

I'll agree that it's on the owners because of the last CBA. They gave the players too damn much last time.

They had to because in exchange they received capped salaries. It always been a haggle.

[DPG21920]

The good news is things will move forward now. It might take time, but since the union was not going to take what the owners were offering and the owners were adamant not to change their conditions, further negotiations was a waste of time. The "disclaimer of interest" was another good move to accelerate proceedings. I didn't think Hunter had it in him, tbh.

Exactly. It sucks, but no more being duped into false negotiating. No more shuffling of feet. It's a terrible option but the only way to get something done. Hopefully this finally forces the owners to try and negotiate.

Also, contracts aren't voided :lol. Stern has y'all scared. I'm sure the Bulls can't wait to release Noah & Rose :lol

[eric365]

The good news is things will move forward now. It might take time, but since the union was not going to take what the owners were offering and the owners were adamant not to change their conditions, further negotiations was a waste of time. The "disclaimer of interest" was another good move to accelerate proceedings. I didn't think Hunter had it in him, tbh.

Could have done it the 1st day of the lockout if they really wanted to ga fast..
Truth is it was last option because Hunter is now probably forfeiting his salary

[DesignatedT]

Stern "Players seem hellbent on self-destruction"

Players will end up with a worse deal now and many paychecks lost.

[mavsfan1000]

Fuck you greedy players!

[ElNono]

Good for the players. They were given a choice between abject capitulation or a principled fight. They have chosen to fight despite the fact that the narrow self-interests of most of the current membership would have been better served by taking the deal the NBA put on the table.

The players have been poorly served by Billy Hunter. I would hope that steps are taken to completely sever his relationship with the players. He has utterly failed to protect their interests.

In the end, the hard line owners have gotten what they wanted all along. I hope they come to regret putting the future of the NBA in the hands of lawyers and judges.

Agree. And that can't be said enough. Players for once put money in the back-seat. They're likely not going to recover the loss in this CBA, but for once they've stood up for what they believe in and future players over the quick buck.

[ElNono]

Could have done it the 1st day of the lockout if they really wanted to ga fast..
Truth is it was last option because Hunter is now probably forfeiting his salary

Don't doubt it for a second. I didn't even think Hunter would agree to it, tbh.

[Stalin]

I guess we'll watch the Lakers - Knicks - Heat - Mavs. 4 Team league and everyone else will just be practice.
I bet we keep Bonner though and Spurs sign him to a 10 yr contract.

you think spurs will retire his jersey?

[DPG21920]

Stern "Players seem hellbent on self-destruction"

Players will end up with a worse deal now and many paychecks lost.

Don't be so sure my friend. I know you buy into face value and everything Stern says, but they could end up with a better deal. Lost pay checks are a given, but that shows you how bad this was that the players put money on the back seat for principle.

[Mel_13]

But, Hunter had to see it. He did the right thing.

A blind man could have seen this coming. Stern told Hunter what the owners were going to do more than three years ago. Only a truly delusional idiot would think that the owners could be persuaded to change their position at the bargaining table. Hunter had two choices all along: take a bad deal or turn it over to the lawyers. He wasted more than four months trying to talk things out.

[ElNono]

Stern "Players seem hellbent on self-destruction"

Players will end up with a worse deal now and many paychecks lost.

Paychecks lost are definitely not coming back. The worse-deal part, well, nobody knows at this point.

[Birn]

The players are even more stupid than I originally thought. Decertification does nothing but costs them the entire season. I'm curious to see exactly how many players actually vote to decertify the union in 45 days. They need a simple majority. I really doubt they have the votes and by that time there will be several more lost paychecks and pissed off wives/girlfriends. This whole action is all being rigged up and pursued by big time agents. It is their self interest they are protecting and not the players. Agents don't want a reduction in their income. Keep in mind these agents will be in business for the next 20 years while an average NBA player is only around 3-5 years. The agents are driving this whole sham and it is my prediction they will lose BIG. There is no way we will have a season if they are really serious about decertification. I will never believe the Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and other highly paid superstars are OK about losing over $20 million this season. Had they just put this thing to a vote of all players we would be playing ball in December. It's a shame and it's despicable that the union won't even allow their membership to vote. Just utterly astounding!!

[ElNono]

The players are even more stupid than I originally thought. Decertification does nothing but costs them the entire season. I'm curious to see exactly how many players actually vote to decertify the union in 45 days. They need a simple majority.

No votes needed. Hunter dissolved the union himself.

[ElNono]

:lol Birn completely misinformed again

[Mel_13]

I'm curious to see exactly how many players actually vote to decertify the union in 45 days.

There won't be a decertification vote. The union leaders disclaimed interest.

[DesignatedT]

Billy Hunter is an idiot. His handling of this whole process has been abysmal.

[Giuseppe]

This whole action is all being rigged up and pursued by big time agents. It is their self interest

& the player's interest & by default the fan's interest.

We're where we are supposed to be.

[ElNono]

Billy Hunter is an idiot. His handling of this whole process has been abysmal.

I think we can all agree with this. I think it's likely he won't return as union head when this is over.

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
When we talk about all hell breaking loose, this is it.

[ElNono]

As Marv Albert would say... "owners deeeenniiieeddd"

[Giuseppe]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
When we talk about all hell breaking loose, this is it.

It's an ELE for Media. They can't "see" into the courts. There is no place for them. The courts have no agenda at default. Without agenda Media drifts in the winds.

[Giuseppe]

Billy Hunter is an idiot. His handling of this whole process has been abysmal.

Admittedly he was asleep at the wheel until a week ago. Since then he's taken Stern to the woodshed repeatedly & at length.

[eric365]

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Pressing NBA sources if "reset" offer is now on the table. Response is something like "who would we give it to?"

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern: "We were very close and the players decide to blow it up. If there is a deal, we will do what we can to bring fans back.

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern says if union is trying to scare the owners, "that's not happening."

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern: "This sham of magically taking the union and become something else is just a big charade. Irresponsible giving the timing.

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern: "If I were a player, one of 450, I would wonder what it is Billy Hunter just did."

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern: Some owners thought proposal was too player-friendly. I was confident I could persuade them to approve it. Academic now."

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern: "Lot's of paychecks will be missed. Union decided proposal would not be submitted to membership. Now a nuclear winter of NBA."

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern: "All we do is put our fate in the lawyers and be guaranteed years of litigation."

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern: "Union seems hell bent on self destruction."

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern railing against Hunter and Kessler. "This is a negotiating tactic. It's not going to work. They should have done it a long time ago."

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern: "I think the chances of the season slipping away from us...it's really a tragedy."

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern: "We're not issuing idle threats. They are going to start a lawsuit? We don't even understand the strategy."

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern calls decertifying an "irresponsible action. Billy Hunter has put the season in jeopardy."

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Stern: "We anticipated this. We started a federal action against the union because they were bargaining in bad faith.

[ElNono]

I will never believe the Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, and other highly paid superstars are OK about losing over $20 million this season.

He was in the meeting today:

http://i41.tinypic.com/bg5hzq.jpg

[Bruno]

Even if it sucks for fans, players made the right move by not taking a deal that was bad for them. Now, I hope judges will side with players.

And :lol @ Stern thinking than some tweets and a youtube video of a powerpoint presentation was enough to screw players.

[eric365]

The worst one is
Stern railing against Hunter and Kessler. "This is a negotiating tactic. It's not going to work. They should have done it a long time ago."

Even Stern say it

[ElNono]

Stern is maaaadddd... :madrun

They called his bluff... he's as much responsible for this as Hunter...

[Giuseppe]

And :lol @ Stern thinking than some tweets and a youtube video of a powerpoint presentation was enough to screw players.

Media was running as fast as they could, carrying water buckets & ends of logs for 72 hours straight.

Uh, uh.

[Mel_13]

The worst one is
Stern railing against Hunter and Kessler. "This is a negotiating tactic. It's not going to work. They should have done it a long time ago."

Even Stern say it

That's one thing that Stern has right. Months have been wasted.

[ElNono]

That's one thing that Stern has right. Months have been wasted.

I would argue that some weeks have, but some of it was unavoidable due to the lawsuit the NBA filed when the lockout started claiming bad faith negotiations from the union.

I think once that judge said the NBA's case was "thin", the union could've moved with this and not waste another two weeks or so.

[Giuseppe]

The worst one is
Stern railing against Hunter and Kessler. "This is a negotiating tactic. It's not going to work. They should have done it a long time ago."

Even Stern say it

Well, if Stern says it:::it's gotta be true.

Please. He ain't traveled the high road since instituting that zero tolerance with the refs decree.

[Mel_13]

Stern is maaaadddd... :madrun

They called his bluff... he's as much responsible for this as Hunter...

Stern must be depressed by all this. He was once regarded as the best commissioner in all of professional sports. Now this lockout and all that will follow will be his legacy.

[Mel_13]

I would argue that some weeks have, but some of it was unavoidable due to the lawsuit the NBA filed when the lockout started claiming bad faith negotiations from the union.

I think once that judge said the NBA's case was "thin", the union could've moved with this and not waste another two weeks or so.

We're never going to agree on that. I don't see how the NBA's lawsuit precluded the players from filing their own. Moot point now.

[ElNono]

If we do a little history on this lockout, the NBA foresaw the union filing for decertification to follow the NFL's tactic last summer, and filed a pre-emptive lawsuit claiming bad faith from the union. So the union needed to at least show some good faith-negotiating before they would use the nuclear option. That said, it could've easily been last month, since there's no doubt that given the concessions and including the federal mediator they were negotiating in good faith.

[ElNono]

We're never going to agree on that. I don't see how the NBA's lawsuit precluded the players from filing their own. Moot point now.

Agree it's moot now :toast

[mavsfan1000]

The only good thing is seeing Stern mad. I hate that fucker.

[ElNono]

Stern's response:
TC30HRDwjqM

[eric365]

If we do a little history on this lockout, the NBA foresaw the union filing for decertification to follow the NFL's tactic last summer, and filed a pre-emptive lawsuit claiming bad faith from the union. So the union needed to at least show some good faith-negotiating before they would use the nuclear option. That said, it could've easily been last month, since there's no doubt that given the concessions and including the federal mediator they were negotiating in good faith.

OK it's more clear now

[vy65]

IIRC, Judge Gardephe called the league's allegation that the NBPA was threatening decertification as a negotiating tactic "thin." That allegation isn't so thin now that the NBPA has disclaimed.

[Mel_13]

If we do a little history on this lockout, the NBA foresaw the union filing for decertification to follow the NFL's tactic last summer, and filed a pre-emptive lawsuit claiming bad faith from the union. So the union needed to at least show some good faith-negotiating before they would use the nuclear option. That said, it could've easily been last month, since there's no doubt that given the concessions and including the federal mediator they were negotiating in good faith.

It could have also been in July. The union leadership could have camped out in New York and held daily pressers in front of NBA offices demanding that the NBA come to the table. After a few days of unproductive talks, they could have made public appeals to bring in the federal mediator. They could have reached this impasse a long time ago.

They allowed Stern to control the calendar. It didn't have to be that way. Moot.

[ElNono]

Stern's on the last proposal:
"But apparently it was not to liking of the players. We anticipated this."

[ElNono]

IIRC, Judge Gardephe called the league's allegation that the NBPA was threatening decertification as a negotiating tactic "thin." That allegation isn't so thin now that the NBPA has disclaimed.

Well, it isn't a negotiating tactic either, seeing that there's no longer an union to negotiate with.

[ElNono]

Not to mention that both "disclaimer of interest" and decertification are both valid and legal resources the union has.

[Mel_13]

Stern's on the last proposal:
"But apparently it was not to liking of the players. We anticipated this."

:rollin

Ya think?