Resuming CBA talks

[ElNono]

I support the players at this stage in negotiations because I truly believe they've addressed a lot of the owners complaints, and have even come to the table from the get go willing to compromise on something that helps the league. They've even been willing to take a hit if revenues don't quite pan out. They've even went down from their 53% stance all the way to basically 51%.

Whereas the owners have moved from 47% to 50%, but butchering pretty much the entire system. Their 'move' from a 'hard cap' to a 'flex cap' isn't a move. It's a 'hard cap' in disguise. And to top it all off, the biggest problem is with small market teams, because big markets are making a good chunk of money. Which really points all arrows towards the fact that the NBA has the most horrible revenue-sharing agreement in professional sports in the US.

[ElNono]

Collective bargaining isn't supposed to be a one sided affair, a take-it-or-leave-it, or ultimatum-ridden bravado.

[Nathan89]

You'll notice the 1970-1980 decade is missing. That was the only period in league history that can truly be considered democratic. Eight different teams won championships: the Celtics, Knicks, Bucks, Lakers, Warriors, Blazers, Bullets and Sonics. That would seem to be the kind of parity the league is now seeking. And the league was so popular that its Finals games had to be shown on tape delay. To be fair, there were other factors at play then -- the league was overwhelmed by the perception of white fans that its black players were all on drugs, for one. But the bottom line is the bottom line -- in the most egalitarian 10-year stretch in league history, no one watched on television, and people hated the on-court product.

Maybe they should start putting the finals on tape delay then because the 1976 and 1977 finals had higher rating then almost every finals since 1999. Not to mention the fact that ratings will be lower if people get the results to the game before it airs.

[DPG21920]

I also think that flex cap could make it worse for small market even though their intention is to "get parity". If they are penalizing teams with a progressive LT, teams like LA with their huge incomes and tv deals, could take that hit still and build up payrolls and still make money. Small market teams that now venture into the LT every now and again will no longer be able to do that because the penalties now make them unprofitable if they do so.

[Nathan89]

The link contradicted what you said.

[DPG21920]

Collective bargaining isn't supposed to be a one sided affair, a take-it-or-leave-it, or ultimatum-ridden bravado.

No, and that is the problem. The owners are running up the score because they can and it is to the detriment of the league. What they say and what they do are two completely different things. They also say the most outlandish things and then come off of them and act like they are concessions.

[DPG21920]

The link contradicted what you said.

:lol Nice troll job.

[DJ Mbenga]

dont understand why the writers are suggesting there is hope for a deal or even talks tomorrow, here is yahoos wonrjrawsowki :

"Sources within seven of the most prominent agencies – including the agents and players themselves – said they have overwhelming support to march toward dissolving the union. The agents are selling decertification to the players as a leverage tool to get a deal done to salvage the season, as much as a long-term threat to take the owners to federal court with an antitrust lawsuit."

stern didnt seem to scared about decertification, it doesnt seem it could scare the owners to suddenly negotiate in good faith. they havent even done that now why would they later.

[ElNono]

Maybe they should start putting the finals on tape delay then because the 1976 and 1977 finals had higher rating then almost every finals since 1999. Not to mention the fact that ratings will be lower if people get the results to the game before it airs.

Post-Jordan effect. Which really tells you how important are the stars. After those 76/77 finals, and until the Magic/Bird battles, the Finals couldn't hit 10 points...

[ElNono]

stern didnt seem to scared about decertification, it doesnt seem it could scare the owners to suddenly negotiate in good faith. they havent even done that now why would they later.

I think owners think players don't have the balls to decertify. Don't forget NBA players never done that before.

[Mel_13]

dont understand why the writers are suggesting there is hope for a deal or even talks tomorrow, here is yahoos wonrjrawsowki :

"Sources within seven of the most prominent agencies – including the agents and players themselves – said they have overwhelming support to march toward dissolving the union. The agents are selling decertification to the players as a leverage tool to get a deal done to salvage the season, as much as a long-term threat to take the owners to federal court with an antitrust lawsuit."

stern didnt seem to scared about decertification, it doesnt seem it could scare the owners to suddenly negotiate in good faith. they havent even done that now why would they later.

The agents are self-interested scum. Their influence within the NBA peaked in 1998. The 1999 and 2005 CBAs have substantially reduced both their influence and their financial possibilities. Even an agreement based on the union's current position would continue that slide. They have the most to gain and the least to lose from decertification and the ensuing legal fight.

[ElNono]

When the commish himself says the Finals he would prefer is "Lakers vs Lakers" you can tell parity isn't really the priority here.

[Nathan89]

I think owners think players don't have the balls to decertify. Don't forget NBA players never done that before.

I don't think they do. People have a tendency to lookout for their own interest. To decertify would not be in the best interest of current players.

[Seventyniner]

Sorry about that: http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/david_aldridge/10/17/morning-tip-labor-update/index.html

Also, did you go to UNCC?

Thanks, it looks like a good read.

Nope, didn't go to UNCC; I had to google it just to see what it meant. I went to Rice; having Mike Wilks on the 2005 title team was pretty sweet for this Spurs fan.

[ElNono]

I don't think they do. People have a tendency to lookout for their own interest. To decertify would not be in the best interest of current players.

I disagree.

[yavozerb]

Also, :lmao at Steve Blake trying to call players and push them to vote on this proposal. Steve. Blake. No one cares what you think you scrub.

Lakers guard Steve Blake has been canvassing peers throughout the league over the past 48 hours, pushing them to contact team player representatives to push the Players Association to let its 450-plus membership vote on the owner’s ultimatum offer, sources said. Blake hasn’t been pushing players to vote “yes” or “no” on the deal but has gained a groundswell of support with players throughout the league

per sheridan hoops

You were saying....:lol

[DPG21920]

:lol I read that before I posted it. It was more of me picturing a big time player getting a call from Steve Blake and then saying "how the hell did you get my number"

[TDMVPDPOY]

why doesnt the owner just agree to whatever the players wanted

then just cut costs and pass it onto the player to cover that costs our of their own pocket, like:
-insurance
-schedule flight tickets
-meals
-accomondation on the road

these players get to many freebies while earning millions...

[DPG21920]

Would you pay for your own travel for work? I don't.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Just heard on Kens5, that the players and owners are meeting again tomorrow. Not sure if that's legit.

[DPG21920]

I don't know what the players expect. There is still no hard date as of tomorrow and why would the owners change their stance all of the sudden with no real threat forcing their hand at the moment?

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

The players have no chance in winning this in their favor.

[Dex]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
The owners fear the player reps meeting in NYC Tuesday will push for approval of the deal. David Stern was not on the conference call..
2 minutes ago

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
The owners on the call included Michael Jordan, Paul Allen and Herb Kohl. They are hoping the players reject the offer, sources said...
3 minutes ago

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
7-11 hard-line owners expressed their displeasure with David Stern's 50/50 offer to the players Monday on a conference call, sources said..
4 minutes ago

[DJ Mbenga]

gotta give stern credit. he knows how to handle these egos. the owners dont even want to offer whats on the table now yet stern put it on the table and would get them in line should it pass, of course this wont happen, things are gonna go to hell

[Dex]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
The hard-line owners prefer the alternative deal that will go into effect Wed if players reject 50/50 - 47 pct, flex cap, contract rollbacks
1 minute ago

And the greedy get greedier...

[DesignatedT]

accept the fuckin deal you dipshits.

[DPG21920]

Don't accept and decertify.

[DJ Mbenga]

accept the fuckin deal you dipshits.

it would be funny cause if they did, my guess is somehow the owners try to block it. jordan is very determined. he doesnt give a damn about his image he cares about his wallet. he would be willing to take the fall. of course he is betting on the players not taking rape willingly.

[ElNono]

Players are going to have to make a stand, if not now, in 6 or so years. Might as well do it now that: 1) You lost games already and 2) You still have a favorable previous CBA to compare against.

If they take this shit sandwich right now, 6 years from now the negotiations will only go down from this shitty CBA, and you'll still be missing paychecks. Plus the owners will laugh in your face again seeing you don't have the balls to really get them agitated.

[DPG21920]

I agree. The deal is awful and they have something in their pocket that could help.

[ElNono]

I agree. The deal is awful and they have something in their pocket that could help.

It might not help at all when all is said and done, but at least making a stand you show them you're not going to get intimidated with BS like "You haven't felt enough pain yet".

[DPG21920]

I should have emphasized could. Its a terrible option, but its the only real chance they have if the owners won't negotiate.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

If the players don't take the deal, they are extremely stubborn. It's lucid that this offer is literally the most reasonable thing on the table, and that's even going against most of the owners.

[Nathan89]

Seems like a reverse psychology tactic by the owners. Makes it seem like they are really serious about offering that bullshit 47%. The bees(players) buzzing around in a frenzy. Owners have them on the brink of a decision with this tactic, IMHO. I think a deal happens soon if not by the deadline then shortly after(week).

[ElNono]

If the players don't take the deal, they are extremely stubborn. It's lucid that this offer is literally the most reasonable thing on the table, and that's even going against most of the owners.

How you figure that? :lol
Players take this offer and they've been basically raped without lube. Very likely the worst CBA ever for players in the history of the league.


Seems like a reverse psychology tactic by the owners. Makes it seem like they are really serious about offering that bullshit 47%. The bees(players) buzzing around in a frenzy. Owners have them on the brink of a decision with this tactic, IMHO. I think a deal happens soon if not by the deadline then shortly after(week).

I think wednesday goes without a deal. I could be wrong. I don't think players are buying the ultimatum line, and I'd be willing to bet Stern will offer 50% after wednesday again.

[Nathan89]

I think wednesday goes without a deal. I could be wrong. I don't think players are buying the ultimatum line, and I'd be willing to bet Stern will offer 50% after wednesday again.

I agree that Stern will offer 50% again. I was going to include in my post the offer 47% and make the player work just to get it back to 50%. They'll feel like they earned something and the owners will throw in a few system compromises to seal the deal.

[ElNono]

I agree that Stern will offer 50% again. I was going to include in my post the offer 47% and make the player work just to get it back to 50%. They'll feel like they earned something and the owners will throw in a few system compromises to seal the deal.

The problem is that players aren't taking the 50% offer along with a system with that includes a virtual hard cap. Owners have been twisting that stuff over and over, but they're still offering basically the same thing. When they 'budged' on the amount of increases on the lux tax, they were adamant to exclude tax payers from sign and trade.

They can have 50 million meetings and talk about bands and whatever, but until the owners either move seriously past 50% no questions asked or drop that capping, I don't think we're going to have a season. It's been like this for months now. We're still circling over the same old issues.

Just the impression I get.

[DJ Mbenga]

following this is seriously bad for my health. a midnight update from worjahiwski. they are gonna try and tweak system issues to seal the deal. i imagine if they tweak certain system issues aka the sign and trade, maybe not the trade and extend for tax payers the players would be willing to do 50 50. i cant take this anyomre.

[Dex]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_lockout_kobe_bryant_110711

So it's come to this....owners positioning that they don't want the union to take the deal so they can go hardline, players positioning that they don't want to union to take the deal so they can decertify. What a clusterfuck.

[Venti Quattro]

This season needs to begin already...

[pookenstein]

In the past 12 years:

Spurs: 4 Finals appearances
Pistons: 2 Finals appearances
Cavaliers: 1 Final appearances

That's 7/12 seasons where a small market team made the Finals.

Sometimes it isn't money, it's lucking out with the right talent and hitting your stride at the right time.

I agree withe the bolded Part, but it's not 7/12 seasons. It's 5/12. 1999, 03, 04, 05 and 07.

[mountainballer]

In the past 12 years:

Spurs: 4 Finals appearances
Pistons: 2 Finals appearances
Cavaliers: 1 Final appearances

That's 7/12 seasons where a small market team made the Finals.

Sometimes it isn't money, it's lucking out with the right talent and hitting your stride at the right time.

just a question.
when do we talk about a big market or small market team?
sure NY is a big market and Salt Lake City a small one.
but is for example Detroit a small market? Detroit is ranked #12 in Metropolitan Statistical Areas. Boston would be #10 on that list. (I always thought Bostons is called a big market)

[Maddog]

just a question.
when do we talk about a big market or small market team?
sure NY is a big market and Salt Lake City a small one.
but is for example Detroit a small market? Detroit is ranked #12 in Metropolitan Statistical Areas. Boston would be #10 on that list. (I always thought Bostons is called a big market)

that's a good question.
I think it is not only market size but owner wealth and willingness to spend.
I don't think Detroit is a small market. It's not big, but far from small.
Detroit s metro area is over 4 million San Antonio's is half that.
Principle owner- Detroit's owner during the last finals appearance was worth 3.5 Billion. SA owner Holt net worth 0.08 billion.
Cleveland is a great example- through the draft they where able to land a great talent. Great enough to get a team to the finals. However, they where not able to hold on to him.

When you look at the NBA champions since the merger, the NBA champs clearly outside the top 10 metro areas- Portland, Seattle and San Antonio.

By 2008 it was becoming clear that the Spurs where going to have a tough time competing. Teams with money could sign mediocre players to large salaries then use them when expiring to acquire big name players from teams that could not afford to keep or surround with additional players (see Boston, LA).
Since the Spurs won in 2007, every champ has been substantially over the luxury tax.

[DPG21920]

If the players don't take the deal, they are extremely stubborn. It's lucid that this offer is literally the most reasonable thing on the table, and that's even going against most of the owners.

Let me ask you this: say you personally worked for a company coming off one of their most prosperous years ever. Your boss comes to you and says: "the business model isnt great, even though we have offers to be purchased for an all time high and I can't let you look at the books either. Because of this I want you to take a massive pay cut while at the same time having more strenuous working conditions to cover any losses we might have had in the past to guarentee we are profitable. I will be getting a raise however because of this. If you don't accept this deal now, you will get a worse offer or fired soon. "

Tell me, if you don't take that deal are you stubborn?

[DPG21920]

Also, it's not going against the owners IMO. They are already celebrating. This is just them being completely greedy.

[ElNono]

I agree withe the bolded Part, but it's not 7/12 seasons. It's 5/12. 1999, 03, 04, 05 and 07.

You're right. I was counting teams over seasons though. Out of those 5 seasons, two small market teams made it twice to the finals (Spurs vs Cavs, Spurs vs Pistons).

Thanks for pointing that out. You're right if you're counting seasons it's 5/12 (which BTW I don't think it's a small number either).

[ElNono]

just a question.
when do we talk about a big market or small market team?
sure NY is a big market and Salt Lake City a small one.
but is for example Detroit a small market? Detroit is ranked #12 in Metropolitan Statistical Areas. Boston would be #10 on that list. (I always thought Bostons is called a big market)

I agree it's a good question. I think when you look at professional sports, you can't just look at population, but also overall wealth. Teams I consider big market, no questions asked, are: Knicks, Nets, Lakers, Clippers, Chicago, Miami, Orlando, Dallas, Houston. (I might've missed one or two here, help me out) IMO, those teams should've turned a profit even with the old CBA. If they didn't you need to start looking at management. Clippers have a terrible ownership. Dallas spent his luxury way to a title. Miami bet the farm. Nets are in transition to an even bigger market.

Even then, that's only 1/3 of the league in definite big markets, which is why I don't know that you could even really implement a NFL revenue-sharing model. I think the league expanded too much, and it's suffering because of it.
And that's why I also think the talks about contraction should've been more prominent. Some of the current very small market franchises are not going to make it without some serious cash influx from the big markets, and no amount of screwing the players over is going to stop that.

[ElNono]

that's a good question.
I think it is not only market size but owner wealth and willingness to spend.
I don't think Detroit is a small market. It's not big, but far from small.
Detroit s metro area is over 4 million San Antonio's is half that.
Principle owner- Detroit's owner during the last finals appearance was worth 3.5 Billion. SA owner Holt net worth 0.08 billion.
Cleveland is a great example- through the draft they where able to land a great talent. Great enough to get a team to the finals. However, they where not able to hold on to him.

When you look at the NBA champions since the merger, the NBA champs clearly outside the top 10 metro areas- Portland, Seattle and San Antonio.

By 2008 it was becoming clear that the Spurs where going to have a tough time competing. Teams with money could sign mediocre players to large salaries then use them when expiring to acquire big name players from teams that could not afford to keep or surround with additional players (see Boston, LA).
Since the Spurs won in 2007, every champ has been substantially over the luxury tax.

Good post. Sometimes the discussions center on big market vs small market, without a gray area in-between, and I just can't call Detroit (or Boston) a big market comparable to NY or LA. That said, I do think they are clearly a step above Charlotte or Minnesota.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Let me ask you this: say you personally worked for a company coming off one of their most prosperous years ever. Your boss comes to you and says: "the business model isnt great, even though we have offers to be purchased for an all time high and I can't let you look at the books either. Because of this I want you to take a massive pay cut while at the same time having more strenuous working conditions to cover any losses we might have had in the past to guarentee we are profitable. I will be getting a raise however because of this. If you don't accept this deal now, you will get a worse offer or fired soon. "

Tell me, if you don't take that deal are you stubborn?

I understand that, I even said something similar to that earlier in this thread. But in the end, this joust and parry act is between billionaires and multi-millionaires. The pay cut would be significant, but in the end, they're still receiving a disgusting amount of money for doing what they love, for playing a game. They're receiving an amount of money that 90% of people, couldn't even dream of getting in the short amount of time they receive it.

As long as the players don't take the deal, there are alot of people out of a job, like the arena workers, and even bars can be desolate, which sucks for me because I work in one that isn't that popular yet. I feel for the players, but I just think this dick measuring contest needs to end.

[DPG21920]

I agree, but the owners are the only ones acting the fool. The players aren't being hard asses at all. They are making drastic concessions and pleading to negotiate.

[ElNono]

I understand that, I even said something similar to that earlier in this thread. But in the end, this joust and parry act is between billionaires and multi-millionaires. The pay cut would be significant, but in the end, they're still receiving a disgusting amount of money for doing what they love, for playing a game. They're receiving an amount of money that 90% of people, couldn't even dream of getting in the short amount of time they receive it.

That applies to the owners too.


As long as the players don't take the deal, there are alot of people out of a job, like the arena workers, and even bars can be desolate, which sucks for me because I work in one that isn't that popular yet. I feel for the players, but I just think this dick measuring contest needs to end.

That applies to the owners too. If the owners took on the player's offer we would be having games now.

Did you forget who caused this impasse? It wasn't the players going on strike. If there are "alot of people out of a job, like the arena workers" it has everything to do with owners locking out the players. If the owners don't give a shit, why stick that to the players?

[Seventyniner]

Could all this talk about owners not wanting players to accept the deal be just a reverse-psychology ruse to get the players to take it?

[yavozerb]

I agree, but the owners are the only ones acting the fool. The players aren't being hard asses at all. They are making drastic concessions and pleading to negotiate.

Of course the owners are being hard asses cause they can. Look, this is about as 1 sided as negotiotions can be, the good ole days are over of getting something for nothing for the players. They need to sign this deal and move on.....

[yavozerb]

Could all this talk about owners not wanting players to accept the deal be just a reverse-psychology ruse to get the players to take it?

absolutely..But some of these statements being issued by certain owners I believe are pretty sincere and I think they could care less if there is a season or not....

[vy65]

I agree it's a good question. I think when you look at professional sports, you can't just look at population, but also overall wealth. Teams I consider big market, no questions asked, are: Knicks, Nets, Lakers, Clippers, Chicago, Miami, Orlando, Dallas, Houston. (I might've missed one or two here, help me out) IMO, those teams should've turned a profit even with the old CBA. If they didn't you need to start looking at management. Clippers have a terrible ownership. Dallas spent his luxury way to a title. Miami bet the farm. Nets are in transition to an even bigger market.

Even then, that's only 1/3 of the league in definite big markets, which is why I don't know that you could even really implement a NFL revenue-sharing model. I think the league expanded too much, and it's suffering because of it.
And that's why I also think the talks about contraction should've been more prominent. Some of the current very small market franchises are not going to make it without some serious cash influx from the big markets, and no amount of screwing the players over is going to stop that.

I'd add Golden State and Atlanta for sure. Could also consider DC, Philly, PHX, and Denver.

[Giuseppe]

Of course the owners are being hard asses cause they can. Look, this is about as 1 sided as negotiotions can be, the good ole days are over of getting something for nothing for the players. They need to sign this deal and move on.....

Nonsense. Signing it isn't going to make it better. It will only make it worse. The players need to stand now. They can't lose a dime until they sign that deal.

[mavsfan1000]

No season. Players refusing to give in is the downfall. Yet they still make an incredibly sick amount of money and don't think that is enough. Pathetic.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No season. Owners refusing to give in is the downfall. Yet they still make an incredibly sick amount of money and don't think that is enough. Pathetic.

FIFY to demonstrate it works both ways.

[ElNono]

I'd add Golden State and Atlanta for sure.

I'll buy those two.


Could also consider DC, Philly, PHX, and Denver.

I attend the Spurs-Philly game religiously every season, and tbqh, that franchise is in the shitter right now. Didn't they just get sold?
As far as Denver, been to the Pepsi Center and definitely a nice arena. Just not sure they're making that much money there.

[vy65]

I attend the Spurs-Philly game religiously every season, and tbqh, that franchise is in the shitter right now. Didn't they just get sold?
As far as Denver, been to the Pepsi Center and definitely a nice arena. Just not sure they're making that much money there.

I thought we were talking about market size. Seems like you're talking about how an organization is run - and I have no doubt the sixers are run by fucking monkeys.

In terms of wealth and population size - I'd say Philly and Denver are pretty big. Not NY/LA/CHI big - but a step above the rest in terms of size and aggregate wealth.

[ElNono]

I thought we were talking about market size. Seems like you're talking about how an organization is run - and I have no doubt the sixers are run by fucking monkeys.

In terms of wealth and population size - I'd say Philly and Denver are pretty big. Not NY/LA/CHI big - but a step above the rest in terms of size and aggregate wealth.

And I don't disagree with that. Stated as much in the case of Detroit and Boston. Which is why talking about strictly big vs small market I don't think it's necessarily prudent unless we delineate exactly where and how we determine that.

[vy65]

And I don't disagree with that. Stated as much in the case of Detroit and Boston. Which is why talking about strictly big vs small market I don't think it's necessarily prudent unless we delineate exactly where and how we determine that.

I guess the Spurs are the only "true" small market team to win a championship in the past 20 odd years.

I can see where small market teams are coming from re: their financial condition. What I don't get is why owners from large markets are being held hostage by/are accommodating the smaller markets to the point of sabotaging the season.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

That applies to the owners too.



That applies to the owners too. If the owners took on the player's offer we would be having games now.

Did you forget who caused this impasse? It wasn't the players going on strike. If there are "alot of people out of a job, like the arena workers" it has everything to do with owners locking out the players. If the owners don't give a shit, why stick that to the players?

Because the players have the power to end it right now. Whether it's fair or not, the Owners are obviously the villains, but the players can be the hero's by swallowing their pride, not standing their ground, or losing a season, and failing to intimidate the Owners. The Owners saw how the players decertification looked in 1999, if the players said they had been preparing for the lockout, don't you think the Owners have a counter for anything, including decertification?

[ElNono]

I guess the Spurs are the only "true" small market team to win a championship in the past 20 odd years.

I can see where small market teams are coming from re: their financial condition. What I don't get is why owners from large markets are being held hostage by/are accommodating the smaller markets to the point of sabotaging the season.

I think the reason is two-fold: One, the financial side, it makes more economic sense for them to put it on the player's back than agree to a larger redistribution coming out of their pockets, and I think the key reason as far as votes go, is that a bunch of these mid-market teams like Detroit, Golden State and Philly are under new ownership, which I'm not sure it gives them a big voice. I expect those guys to go with the majority, and the majority right now is small market teams.

[ElNono]

Because the players have the power to end it right now.

Owners don't have the power to end it right now?


Whether it's fair or not, the Owners are obviously the villains, but the players can be the hero's by swallowing their pride, not standing their ground, or losing a season, and failing to intimidate the Owners.

Are you trolling? You're the hero by bending over? Is that how you negotiate your contracts? :lol


The Owners saw how the players decertification looked in 1999, if the players said they had been preparing for the lockout, don't you think the Owners have a counter for anything, including decertification?

The league already played his card to prevent decertification, which was both a lawsuit deemed 'thin' by a judge last week, and filings to the NLRB. They've also stated they would file a suit seeking to declare all contracts null and void (questionable whether it would succeed, since it's never been done before in a lockout case). Bottom line though is that decertification will kick the game board and owners won't be in full control anymore (neither will players).

If the union decides to decertify, I expect those 45 days that takes for the NLRB to decide to allow it or not to be pretty tense and include a flurry of negotiations.

[DPG21920]

Of course the owners are being hard asses cause they can. Look, this is about as 1 sided as negotiotions can be, the good ole days are over of getting something for nothing for the players. They need to sign this deal and move on.....

So it's on the owners, not the players. Why on Earth would the players move on when they are getting pummeled? Just bc now it's one sided doesn't mean the players should just bend over and take one of the worst CBA offers in sports. Not when they have a tool (decertification) that at least has potential to help.

What do mean getting something for nothing? The Players are the damn league and have never been this hard nosed in a negotiation. You may side with the owners, and that's your opinion, but it's wrong.

[DPG21920]

Because the players have the power to end it right now. Whether it's fair or not, the Owners are obviously the villains, but the players can be the hero's by swallowing their pride, not standing their ground, or losing a season, and failing to intimidate the Owners. The Owners saw how the players decertification looked in 1999, if the players said they had been preparing for the lockout, don't you think the Owners have a counter for anything, including decertification?

:lol the owners have the same exact power to end. Actually they have more. The players are giving miles and asking for feet in return. Your logic amazes me.

[ElNono]

So what's the story? Are they meeting today or not?

[DPG21920]

Haven't heard anything. What's the point though, owners arent forced to negotiate yet.

[Dex]

http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/picture/aequitas3/Accept_It.jpg

[Nathan89]

I guess the Spurs are the only "true" small market team to win a championship in the past 20 odd years.

I can see where small market teams are coming from re: their financial condition. What I don't get is why owners from large markets are being held hostage by/are accommodating the smaller markets to the point of sabotaging the season.

And all it took was the aligning of the stars.

1. Robinson injury
2. Tim Duncan
3. 57th pick Manu
4. 28th pick TP
5. Turning Bruce Bowen into something
6. Tim Duncan not leaving for another team.

[ElNono]

And all it took was the aligning of the stars.

1. Robinson injury
2. Tim Duncan
3. 57th pick Manu
4. 28th pick TP
5. Turning Bruce Bowen into something
6. Tim Duncan not leaving for another team.

tbqh, Bostonfan will tell you the lottery was rigged :cry :cry :cry

[DPG21920]

Big market owners aren't being held hostage; the players are.

[spurs10]

The players union does not appear to be willing to give in. The only way they take the deal is if they decide they can live with it. Perhaps a few tweaks to the system issues can make it doable. Otherwise we are all looking at a long legal bloodbath, where the players might get a better deal in the end, but at what cost? My guess would be, as ElNono has brought up, that we might see some true negotiating happen in the 45 day waiting period before the players decertification process is done. If I were a worker for the NBA, I would seriously be looking for an alternative employment plan. We all know who is really suffering in this mess...the workers, as usual. I'd like to see the players or owners stage some serious benefit shows aimed at helping these folks out. That might do wonders for the damage they are doing to their images right now. Peter Holt's asinine comments alone have done great damage to the face of a team that has worked hard at being a franchise to look up to.

[Nathan89]

I think the owners have pressure because they can see a waterfall in the short distance and they are approaching it quickly. They know good and well that the players will never accept 47% or for that matter less than 50%. So they are currently as close to a deal that the players/owners will realistically agree upon and if they wait longer more games/money will be lost. Something has to happen...

[DPG21920]

If the owners would just give a few inches on the system, a few wins for Fisher to sell, a deal would be done. Problem is the owners will not do it.

[DPG21920]

Players team reps (all 30 teams) are meeting right now.

[baseline bum]

5. Turning Bruce Bowen into something


What? Bowen was considered one of the top defensive players in the league in Miami. He didn't have the corner three before he came to SA, but he wasn't some scrub either.

[Nathan89]

What? Bowen was considered one of the top defensive players in the league in Miami. He didn't have the corner three before he came to SA, but he wasn't some scrub either.

He was a 30yo that played on multiple NBA teams and overseas(I think). He hardly had a bright future in the NBA. Spurs made him a starter on championship teams for many years. He hit his prime after 30.

[Mel_13]

He was a 30yo that played on multiple NBA teams and overseas(I think). He hardly had a bright future in the NBA. Spurs made him a starter on championship teams for many years. He hit his prime after 30.

Get your facts straight.

He was 2nd team All-NBA Defense the year before he joined the Spurs.

[Seventyniner]

Get your facts straight.

He was 2nd team All-NBA Defense the year before he joined the Spurs.

Which is another reason to be pissed at RJ's opt-out and extension; if he hadn't opted out, we probably could have traded him for Gerald Wallace. :bang:bang:bang

[DPG21920]

Get ready for Nathan telling you that your facts only disprove your argument and his now.

[ElNono]

if he hadn't opted out, we probably could have traded him for Gerald Wallace. :bang:bang:bang

50 year old Bowen for GForce? No thanks.






















































:lol

[Nathan89]

Get your facts straight.

He was 2nd team All-NBA Defense the year before he joined the Spurs.

And yet the team was on let him walk. I'm aware that he was recognized for his defense before he came to the Spurs. That doesn't negate the fact that he was an pivotal part of the Spurs well past the age of 30. He developed a great corner 3 late in his career.

[Nathan89]

Get ready for Nathan telling you that your facts only disprove your argument and his now.

Shut-up dip shit.

The facts you backed disproved what you said. Get over it.

[Mel_13]

And yet the team was on let him walk. I'm aware that he was recognized for his defense before he came to the Spurs. That doesn't negate the fact that he was an pivotal part of the Spurs well past the age of 30. He developed a great corner 3 late in his career.

Just so you know, everyone can see when you move the goalposts.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Owners don't have the power to end it right now?



Are you trolling? You're the hero by bending over? Is that how you negotiate your contracts? :lol



The league already played his card to prevent decertification, which was both a lawsuit deemed 'thin' by a judge last week, and filings to the NLRB. They've also stated they would file a suit seeking to declare all contracts null and void (questionable whether it would succeed, since it's never been done before in a lockout case). Bottom line though is that decertification will kick the game board and owners won't be in full control anymore (neither will players).

If the union decides to decertify, I expect those 45 days that takes for the NLRB to decide to allow it or not to be pretty tense and include a flurry of negotiations.

Yeah, I'm trolling. :lol

[Nathan89]

Just so you know, everyone can see when you move the goalposts.

:rolleyes

Presenting the facts is not moving goalposts.

Him making 2nd team all-defense hardly disqualifies him as one of the "stars that aligned". Now that I discussed the many reasons for that we and end the discussion.

[baseline bum]

Bowen most assuredly wasn't the nobody you were implying him to be. The Spurs got him for $700,000 only because he really wanted to be here. He turned down an offer of full MLE from Portland ($4.5 million a season) to sign with the Spurs.

[Mel_13]

:rolleyes

Presenting the facts is not moving goalposts.

Him making 2nd team all-defense hardly disqualifies him as one of the "stars that aligned". Now that I discussed the many reasons for that we and end the discussion.

:rolleyes

[ElNono]

Yeah, I'm trolling. :lol

:rollin

[Nathan89]

Bowen most assuredly wasn't the nobody you were implying him to be. The Spurs got him for $700,000 only because he really wanted to be here. He turned down an offer of full MLE from Portland ($4.5 million a season) to sign with the Spurs.

Presenting more reasons of stars aligning.

either way you look at it:lmao

[ElNono]

tbh, I also don't understand why Spursfan is so adamant to have a season... so we can discuss:

- "Bonner isn't a bad player, he's just used in the wrong role"
- "RJ sucks because he doesn't fit on our game style"
- "Pop has 4 rings and watches every practice. That's why Leonard is glued to the bench"
- "Tiago just needs to develop a jumper or he'll get his weak shit blocked every time"
- "I can't believe Blair not only got fatter but he still doesn't have a jumper"

[DPG21920]

Shut-up dip shit.

The facts you backed disproved what you said. Get over it.


I said I didn't want to argue with you. You are free to have opinions not backed up with substance and to move goal posts all you want.

[DPG21920]

Presenting more reasons of stars aligning.

either way you look at it:lmao

:lol This schtick is money. You did it again! Argue something. Get proof youre wrong then say the proof that contradicts what you say only disproves both people.

[Mel_13]

tbh, I also don't understand why Spursfan is so adamant to have a season... so we can discuss:

- "Bonner isn't a bad player, he's just used in the wrong role"
- "RJ sucks because he doesn't fit on our game style"
- "Pop has 4 rings and watches every practice. That's why Leonard is glued to the bench"
- "Tiago just needs to develop a jumper or he'll get his weak shit blocked every time"
- "I can't believe Blair not only got fatter but he still doesn't have a jumper"

Funny stuff.

Still, I'd rather have those discussions than:

- "I can't believe we lost Duncan's last season to that stupid lockout"

:depressed

[DPG21920]

Racist comment of the day!

[Mel_13]

T2S with his typical quality posts.

[blkroadrunners]

Bonner not a bad player? Used wrong? Bonner sucks......we are the only team in the NBA that would pay this guy. Cant defend, cant rebound, not a good passer.....we do use him wrong, we should be using him as a security guard not a pf

http://i39.tinypic.com/xzhwl.jpg

[ElNono]

Funny stuff.

Still, I'd rather have those discussions than:

- "I can't believe we lost Duncan's last season to that stupid lockout"

:depressed

Duncan's last season was probably around 2008, tbh

[Dex]

Players rejected the offer.

[Dex]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Fisher says players want to keep negotiating with the NBA on proposal, but will not accept owner's ultimatum offer.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Fisher: These players make up the body of the NBA and provide the talent and the product, and want to have a voice on the working conditions
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Derek Fisher says player reps have backed exec board's decision: Rejecting NBA's offer. Willing to keep negotiating.
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Derek Fisher: our orders are clear...w/o system changes, no chance at deal before Wednesday deadline...
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Fisher: "Our orders are clear that the current offer on the table is not acceptable...."
2 minutes ago

[DJ Mbenga]

seems like the sign and trade is a big deal. i think the owners dont want a melo situation again but thats whats holding up a deal. i think 50 50 would be agreed to in a second if the owners let that go.

[weebo]

it's time to shut this mutha down

[DJ Mbenga]

yup. all system. seems like hunter is calling sterns bluff. and called out jordan too.

[Dex]

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
RT @TrueHoop: Billy Hunter not taking David Stern's threat seriously, saying he expects 50/50 offer won't go away no matter what happens WED
5 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Hunter says he isn't buying NBA's offer comes off table for good tomorrow, still believes owners will eventually do a 50-50 revenue split.
8 minutes ago

May be true, but still seems like a stupid thing to come out and say.

[Fabbs]

1. Sternfish said the owners agreed to keep the guaranteed salaries in place.
W-h-y? This is one point i am firmly on the owners side. Give Mr Injured or even Mr. Suck Ass a portion of his salary but the Full Monty? No way! Meet somewhere in the middle of the NFLs rip off (zero) and NBA currents player pampering (100% guaranteed).
Just a few and not even the most outrageous:

Mike Dunleavy - $10,561,984
Dan Gadzuric - $7,248,325
Mike Finley-Popovich 21,000,000
Elton Brand - $15,959,099
Juwan Howard first player in NBA history to sign a contract worth more than $100 million;[132][133] his seven-year contract was worth $105 million.


2. Is FisherFag and Hunter doing nothing to vastly increase the rookie 4 year salary limit when you have superstars like Derrek Rose that are making the owners mega bucks but making either less or just slightly more then Matt Bonner?

[DPG21920]

This is all to be expected at this point. We knew the players wouldn't accept this awful offer. We know that if the owners budge on the system, the players are ready to sign off. The question is will the owners act on what they have said and take a firmer stance now that they have been rejected? If so, the players are in a tough spot.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

So that's it, no season. What a shame. At least the players aren't being punked out. Who knows, maybe the owners are all bark and no bite.

[benefactor]

Good lord...how much more do the owners want? The players are already giving them enough back to cover the majority of their screw ups. How about giving just a little to the players and getting this shit over with.

[ElNono]

I don't know if you guys noticed this yet, but the only ones that care about actually playing games are the fans. I don't think either side gives a shit about saving the season, the arena workers, blah blah blah

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Yep, I noticed that. It's pretty fucked.

[DPG21920]

I think the players do to a certain degree. But there is no way with this offer that they are in a position to accept IMO.

Also, I am fairly sure that even with the stated losses from the owners (which we all know are false) that the players concessions already cover about 90% of those (and in reality, I believe 100% because the losses are overstated).

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Definitely. I'm starting to feel like the owners will cave.

[Giuseppe]

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
[[[Derek Fisher: our orders are clear...w/o system changes, no chance at deal before Wednesday deadline...
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply]]]


Thank Christ.

Players finding some footing now. They're righted themselves.

[DPG21920]

I don't believe the owners will cave. I know it's logical to think so, but these are not logical people. Just because we want it and just because it makes sense, doesn't mean the owners will magically soften. They are doing what they are bc it's premeditated and this is going to get uglier. They have no real threat yet so there is no real incentive for them to move off their ridiculous stance (no incentive other than what one would think they logically have).

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

What's the deadline before the entire season is lost? I'm sure that's when things will heat up.

[ElNono]

What's the deadline before the entire season is lost? I'm sure that's when things will heat up.

Back in 99 it was somewhere in January IIRC.

[DPG21920]

It was January last time, but from my understanding, it would be before that now likely because no one was happy with a 50 game season.

[DPG21920]

Except us :)

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Asterisk or not, Lakers got swept. ;)

[Giuseppe]

The Skunker!!!

[DMC]

1. Sternfish said the owners agreed to keep the guaranteed salaries in place.
W-h-y? This is one point i am firmly on the owners side. Give Mr Injured or even Mr. Suck Ass a portion of his salary but the Full Monty? No way! Meet somewhere in the middle of the NFLs rip off (zero) and NBA currents player pampering (100% guaranteed).
Just a few and not even the most outrageous:

Mike Dunleavy - $10,561,984
Dan Gadzuric - $7,248,325
Mike Finley-Popovich 21,000,000
Elton Brand - $15,959,099
Juwan Howard first player in NBA history to sign a contract worth more than $100 million;[132][133] his seven-year contract was worth $105 million.


2. Is FisherFag and Hunter doing nothing to vastly increase the rookie 4 year salary limit when you have superstars like Derrek Rose that are making the owners mega bucks but making either less or just slightly more then Matt Bonner?

Rookies should not make vet money. Any player coming from a minimum wage position (if that) getting millions is going to go apeshit already. Giving them the key to Gotham is a guarantee for more embarrassing moments for the NBA. Also, you cannot guarantee high money for a rookie because you don't have a large enough sample size of their abilities. You know they have great promise, and some 1st year guys are kicking ass, but if you do that long 22mil contract, you could get fucked after the 2nd year and they decide "fuck it".

[ChumpDumper]

Your nicknames are terrible.

[Bender]

Your nicknames are terrible.
2 out of 3 were... but I chuckled at "Finley-Popovich"

[ElNono]

Rookies should not make vet money. Any player coming from a minimum wage position (if that) getting millions is going to go apeshit already. Giving them the key to Gotham is a guarantee for more embarrassing moments for the NBA. Also, you cannot guarantee high money for a rookie because you don't have a large enough sample size of their abilities. You know they have great promise, and some 1st year guys are kicking ass, but if you do that long 22mil contract, you could get fucked after the 2nd year and they decide "fuck it".

They should also not get into a 4 year relatively shit money contract. Otherwise you end up with Matt Bonner making more money than the reigning NBA MVP. I think the last proposal from the union on this topic was actually accepted by the owners, and that was to create a fund where some of these players would get a bonus if they meet certain criteria, like in Rose case.

[Bill_Brasky]

2 out of 3 were... but I chuckled at "Finley-Popovich"

:lol as did I.

[ElNono]

The challenge for the union as the league's end-of-business deadline draws closer is -- meeting or no meeting -- to not blink, not panic, not anger, if the owners yank one football away and replace it with another that's less appealing.

"For them to use that tactic, we're not going to let it intimidate us," said San Antonio rep Matt Bonner, a member of the union's executive committee. "You've got to think that, if they want to get a deal, going backwards and creating more distance, that doesn't seem like a very logical way to move towards ending this thing.

"We've been pretty consistent the whole way in negotiating to try to get a deal done. We haven't done any hocus-pocus. Despite everything we've given, they're still not moving towards us and even talk about moving backwards. It's really hard to address that."

[Nathan89]

Bonner 333333333

:madrun Bonner fucking me over again.

Bonner is the backbone of the union without him they would have caved.:bang

[Giuseppe]

The players have painted the owners into the corner using the BRI. They're offering 50-50 now, but, the owners have to straighten up on the system. I said this from the very beginning:::the BRI was a smokescreen.

Sure, the owners can scoff and reject it, but, the players will have the high, solid ground. They'll have given up over a quarter billion dollars from 57 to 50. The owners can't take the 7 points and make the players eat the shit sandwich on the system. It's inconceivable as a reality.

[mavsfan1000]

The players are fucking themselves my not taking the offer. I've already stated that the owners could care less if the season is lost if it meant a better deal. If the players don't take the offer, there will be no basketball to watch. Simple as that. Owners will not cave.

[ElNono]

The players are fucking themselves my not taking the offer. I've already stated that the owners could care less if the season is lost if it meant a better deal. If the players don't take the offer, there will be no basketball to watch. Simple as that. Owners will not cave.

Then there will be no basketball to watch. I think it's pretty clear at this point that saving the season isn't really a priority.

[Nathan89]

It's just really hard for me to see the players giving up an entire years pay.

[Dex]

It's just really hard for me to see the players giving up an entire years pay.

If the players are really willing to do with 50-50, I can't see the owners giving up a season over slight system changes, unless they just really want to be greedy dickheads.

Then again, they haven't shown a lot of indication otherwise so far.

And I'm still pissed because all these motherfuckers are vastly overpaid in the first place. :bang

[mathbzh]

Rookies should not make vet money. Any player coming from a minimum wage position (if that) getting millions is going to go apeshit already. Giving them the key to Gotham is a guarantee for more embarrassing moments for the NBA. Also, you cannot guarantee high money for a rookie because you don't have a large enough sample size of their abilities. You know they have great promise, and some 1st year guys are kicking ass, but if you do that long 22mil contract, you could get fucked after the 2nd year and they decide "fuck it".

You can also draft a Tim Duncan, win a title two years later with that guy being finals MVP... and then he breaks his knee, career over...

IMHO a player should make money according to his expected production, not according to a rookie scale.

It does not make sense to sign Lebron and Kwame for the same money.

[Bruno]

Today could be the day. Both sides are so close of a deal that it would dumb to lose again time.

Each day lost costs $12M to players and it costs too money to owners. And I'm not counting damages done to the image of the NBA.

[spurs10]

Today could be the day. Both sides are so close of a deal that it would dumb to lose again time.

Each day lost costs $12M to players and it costs too money to owners. And I'm not counting damages done to the image of the NBA.

[Giuseppe]

Players haven't lost a dime yet.

The owners, they've taken a bath.

[spurs50_]

Stand fast owners.........

[yavozerb]

Players better quite listening to the agents or there season (and paychecks) well be gone....

[DPG21920]

Owners better start to negotiate or the season is gone. . .

[ace3g]

“I don’t want any of my clients playing for Michael Jordan, Paul Allen, Robert Sarver, Dan Gilbert or Peter Holt,” said one agent. “We won’t sign with them, unless they’re willing to really overpay. That’s going to be the only way these hardline owners are going to land any free agents after the way they’ve handled these negotiations.”

These small-market teams have a hard enough time trying to attract free agents. It won’t be any easier now thanks to the way the hardline owners have been depicted throughout this process.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-unified-players-focus-on-system/

[boutons_deux]

Fuck the owners. 57% employees, 43% employers, or bust.

[DPG21920]

I'm just shocked at the number of people on this site that blame the players for the same thing you could easily blame the owners for. It is just awful logic. I'm also shocked at how you can't see what the owners are doing and how the players have made every concession; very large concessions & the owners not only fail to move forward, but threaten to move backwards?

I agree the players have been unorganized and shuffled their feet some, but that is the only thing you can be upset about towards them IMO. Even then I have a hard time getting upset at that considering they did that because they had the (foolish) hope the owners wanted to negotiate in good faith. The owners are the greedy liars here and this CLEARLY falls on them IMO.

[eric365]

“I don’t want any of my clients playing for Michael Jordan, Paul Allen, Robert Sarver, Dan Gilbert or Peter Holt,” said one agent. “We won’t sign with them, unless they’re willing to really overpay. That’s going to be the only way these hardline owners are going to land any free agents after the way they’ve handled these negotiations.”

These small-market teams have a hard enough time trying to attract free agents. It won’t be any easier now thanks to the way the hardline owners have been depicted throughout this process.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-unified-players-focus-on-system/

What is new ?
Small market team already has to overpay to attract free agent unless they are contender (Spurs, Cleveland's Lebron).

[DPG21920]

That's true, but the Spurs FO is taking a big image hit with Holts actions along with RC turning into Josh Hamilton. There will be some push back even after a deal is agreed upon. The Spurs never got any big time FAs really anyway so much won't change. Problem is we had Duncan and now the Spurs need FAs.

[TimmehC]

http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-unified-players-focus-on-system/

Dark days ahead. Fuck.

[DPG21920]

These owners won't budge today. That's my guess. They will follow through with their stance of offering a worse deal and dare the players to decertify. Only then will the owners remotely face any kind of incentive to think about negotiating.

[Giuseppe]

Dark days ahead. Fuck.

It's been about the system since day one. Everyone knew it, but, Media wouldn't cite it because it was a doomsday event. There was no way back from it, no "fun" in it like battling over the neat BRI. And the players could move the BRI ("we'll sell more wampum") after they signed a deal.

You can't move the system once it's signed.

[ace3g]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
NBA & players finalizing details for meeting this afternoon in NYC. Most likely 1 pm, source says.

[boutons_deux]

NBA owners bringing the decades-long War on Employees (and on unions) to the NBA.

[baseline bum]

“I don’t want any of my clients playing for Michael Jordan, Paul Allen, Robert Sarver, Dan Gilbert or Peter Holt,” said one agent. “We won’t sign with them, unless they’re willing to really overpay. That’s going to be the only way these hardline owners are going to land any free agents after the way they’ve handled these negotiations.”

These small-market teams have a hard enough time trying to attract free agents. It won’t be any easier now thanks to the way the hardline owners have been depicted throughout this process.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-unified-players-focus-on-system

Empty threat.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pj7qrCbki2Q/SM5HOfSoE6I/AAAAAAAABFE/Pg-ykYoVo7Y/s400/R-139758-1165062207.jpeg

[cantthinkofanything]

boutons_deux bringing his crappy opinions and two bit inferences to the thread

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

^ Agreed - FAs go wherever the best offer comes from. No agent will convince a player to take a worse deal in order not to work with said owners.

Pure bullshit.

[yavozerb]

Owners better start to negotiate or the season is gone. . .


I'm just shocked at the number of people on this site that blame the players for the same thing you could easily blame the owners for. It is just awful logic. I'm also shocked at how you can't see what the owners are doing and how the players have made every concession; very large concessions & the owners not only fail to move forward, but threaten to move backwards?

I agree the players have been unorganized and shuffled their feet some, but that is the only thing you can be upset about towards them IMO. Even then I have a hard time getting upset at that considering they did that because they had the (foolish) hope the owners wanted to negotiate in good faith. The owners are the greedy liars here and this CLEARLY falls on them IMO.


I do not give a shit about the players future salary decreasing from there current average of 5+ mil...I keep hearing that the NBA is all about the players, but yet its the owners who put up a couple hundred mil. of there own money to secure the business that is the NBA. Yes, you have the glitzy houses and skyscrapers which is the NBA players, but the foundation lies with the owners and the risk they must take in running an organization. Its time for owners to shake things up, if it takes missing a season to do this I'm all for it...

[DPG21920]

If that was the case, no FA would have ever gone to the Clippers.

[DPG21920]

I do not give a shit about the players future salary decreasing from there current average of 5+ mil...I keep hearing that the NBA is all about the players, but yet its the owners who put up a couple hundred mil. of there own money to secure the business that is the NBA. Yes, you have the glitzy houses and skyscrapers which is the NBA players, but the foundation lies with the owners and the risk they must take in running an organization. Its time for owners to shake things up, if it takes missing a season to do this I all for it...

You are entitled to that opinion I just think its wrong. I also think its terrible logic to say this is on the players. Even if you truly believe what you say, the owners have already "shaken things up" by getting the players to drop BRI from 57% to 52%, and even 50% if they move on some of the ultra constrictive system issues (which they have already won as well). So you call the players idiots, but really it's the owners that don't give a crap about you and want to throw the season away. I understand your jealousy towards guys making lots of money to play ball, but that doesn't make your opinion have substance.

Bottom line is, no current crop of players means no league. Dump these owners and a new crop will step up. They "put up their money" because it's big business and the players allow them the opportunity to make big money. In any job the owners take risks but it's rare that you get access to a product (the players) who afford you such a rare opportunity. Again, if they are losing money as they claim, these lower level franchises wouldn't be selling for an all time high.

[boutons_deux]

The path to an N.B.A. labor deal, and the end to a 131-day lockout, came into sharper focus Tuesday, with the players signaling for the first time that they would accept the league’s proposed 50-50 split of revenues.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sports/basketball/nba-union-signals-a-shift-that-may-end-the-lockout.html

employers win, employees lose (for a long time), as always.

[timtonymanu]

LMAO Peter Holt.

I guess he's trying to make up for handing out those shitty contracts to Dick and Bonner.

But I'm with DPG. This is on the owners. Players have shown that they are willing to negotiate and actually give a shit about the fans and the season. I use to not care for either side but after hearing what has been going down, the players have given more. The owners think they can have it both ways which is bullshit. Players are still gonna lose this battle but at least I won't want to throw pitchforks at them like some of these owners (Holt included) and Stern.

[DesignatedT]

Just accept the damn deal. This fuckin sucks.

[DPG21920]

Don't accept. For the owners: just negotiate a damn deal. Quit screwing everyone.

[DPG21920]

For some perspective to recap where we are at:

At the 50/50 BRI split, the players have conceded ~375 million per year. The owners stated losses (which keep in mind is worst case scenario since we know they are cooking the books and their actual losses are likely far less) for last year were ~300 million. So just in year one the players have at worst covered all the losses and given additional money back.

If the owners get their way with a 57% for them, that would be over 5 BILLION in concessions over the 10 year proposal.

Oh ya, the owners want all the system changes as well.


Those greedy idiot players should jump on that.

[ElNono]

But owners take all the risks :cry :cry :cry

[boutons_deux]

Looks like the players have folded on BRI.

Now what about all the other concessions?

players are paying for NBA's greedy overexpansion. owners stupid overpaid contracts, beyond what the market and playing/coaching/mgmt talent can support.

[yavozerb]

Nobody is going to make these players sign anything...The owners are simply stating that if they wish to be part of the National Basketball Association these will be the stipulations and rules they must abide by. Not only is about recouping lost $ for the owners, its about creating a system where everyone has a viable chance at an NBA championship. The NBA was headed down the road of the MLB system which only rewards teams from big markets. This shit needs to stop now...I do not support the owners or players, but I do support equal opportunity for each organization to have a shot at a championship trophy without having to break the bank to do so...just my opinion

[DesignatedT]

In my eyes they are both greedy fucks with the amount of $ they both pull in. I dgaf who loses 2 million over the next 5 years when they have already made 20m in their lifetime. Choosing either side is retarded. Get a fucking deal done, both of them because in the end neither of them is really getting "screwed" out of anything.

[DJ Mbenga]

the owners got more than their 300 million in losses. give a bit on system and its a done deal. of course i do not expect it to happen. once jordan got involved this will go to shit.

[DPG21920]

Except your opinion has been disproven repeatedly and you keep saying things like "they are doing this so every team has a viable shot at a title..." and that is so far from the truth when you look at reality under the current system plus what they are doing now.

Again, I've said this numerous times and recently pundits agree, that the tax the owners are proposing HURTS competitiveness and widens the disparity from small to big markets. It has nothing to do with parity and everything to do with greed and a system that controls spending (I.e. costs) to Guarentee they make an absurd profit.

By your logic, the players could flip it on the owners and say: "this is our proposal if you want to continue to use our talents for your gain."

[DPG21920]

In my eyes they are both greedy fucks with the amount of $ they both pull in. I dgaf who loses 2 million over the next 5 years when they have already made 20m in their lifetime. Choosing either side is retarded. Get a fucking deal done, both of them because in the end neither of them is really getting "screwed" out of anything.

That is so wrong I don't know where to begin. Did you not read my post? We aren't talking "losing 2 million" we are talking about the players losing BILLIONS. How on Earth can you call the players greedy when they've conceded billions? Just because they refuse to eat a shit rape sandwhich so you can be entertained? It's ludicrious.

[yavozerb]

Did the players not counter offer the owners proposal with there own proposal? If the owners had there way there would be an NFL type system in place but the players can make more money and have more freedom outside of that system and therefore are against it..

[DJ Mbenga]

whatever happens i have the porn ready if a deal gets done. if not ill have to store it for next year.

[DPG21920]

The players have tried to negotiate in good faith, the owners have not. The players have made concessions, the owners have not. The players plead to continue negotiating even though they are being pummeled, the owners threaten to make deals worse. The owners have ready massively won on both the system and BRI and they still refuse to budge at all to get a deal done.

[TimmehC]

So, the faction of owners being led by Jordan does know how "good" he is with decisions, right? Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, etc...

[DesignatedT]

Lol the NBA system is still the best in pro-sports and will be even with what the owners are offering. NFL players have it 10 times worse.

[ElNono]

Did the players not counter offer the owners proposal with there own proposal? If the owners had there way there would be an NFL type system in place but the players can make more money and have more freedom outside of that system and therefore are against it..

Not really. I mean, it would be "an NFL type system" without "an NFL type system" revenue sharing, which is a huge part of why small market teams can be competitive in the NFL.

[ElNono]

So, the faction of owners being led by Jordan does know how "good" he is with decisions, right? Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, etc...

And this is part of it too... If you make shit decisions, you shouldn't be allowed to flex the monopoly power you were granted to shield yourself from the responsibility.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Guys you should have learned by now that until you hear that one side or the other has agreed to both BRI AND system that no deal is even close to done.

They had just 'agreed' to a system a couple of weeks ago and we know how that turned out. The BRI split sets a starting point for luxury tax purposes and a salary floor. The system determines how much that percentage shifts. You can figure how much of a budget teams have and forecast rather closely given those terms.

If you give 50% BRI but you don't see a serious regression in the tax until 8% then large market teams are going to drive that mark up a few %. That ends up with the players getting 52-53% versus if you cockblock the regression at 4%.

Thats whats so misleading about this whole episode. The players got 57% last year but what was the luxury tax threshold set at relative to BRI. I don't think that it was at 57%. We really are not comparing apples to apples and we are fixating on one thing when both need to be viewed concurrently as they feed off each other.

[spurs10]

Today the owners can stop the bleeding or stand firm and let the bloodbath begin. Maybe they bend a little during the 45 day wait to decertify, but that will mean December will go off the books for sure. The next two hours will have a historical effect on the NBA as we know it, because it won't be pretty if this goes to court. The only winners there will be the lawyers, as usual.

[Giuseppe]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33147/if-basketball-means-anything-to-owners

"The cliff," which is a term to describe the penalty for going one dollar into the tax. In the old system, teams that were a dollar below the tax threshold paid no tax and received, typically, millions from the league. Going just one dollar over, in other words, would cost those lost millions, plus a dollar in luxury tax for every dollar the team is over. There's an effort to reduce "the cliff" in the league's proposal. Both sides agree, however, that teams that spend hugely on salary will pay significantly more tax than in the past with a new graduated rate system.]]]

Fuck me. That graduated rate system is still there {{{3.5-1}}} at last ganders.

That's an ELE for the Lakers.

[DPG21920]

No, Seppe. The Cliff helps LA. At least in theory.

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
The owners and players have finalized a 1 p.m. ET bargaining session in New York, source confirms.
3 hours ago

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Y! Sources: Stern has enough ownership support to "tweak" system issues to try and get labor deal done today. tinyurl.com/bqyqjkp
4 hours ago

[DPG21920]

Theyve already started nono

[ElNono]

Not getting my hopes up, tbh

[ElNono]

Yeah, that's why I'm posting the "X hours ago"

[DPG21920]

No hopes here. There is no reason for the owners to all of the sudden want to negotiate. They will force the players to decertify before they consider budging. All the talk is for show just like always. As soon as the doors close, the owners will show their real colors yet again.

[spurs10]

Not getting my hopes up, tbh
Wish I had your resolve....once again, I'm getting all optimistic when I should know better!! :lol

:flag::flag::flag::toast

[DPG21920]

Guys you should have learned by now that until you hear that one side or the other has agreed to both BRI AND system that no deal is even close to done.

They had just 'agreed' to a system a couple of weeks ago and we know how that turned out. The BRI split sets a starting point for luxury tax purposes and a salary floor. The system determines how much that percentage shifts. You can figure how much of a budget teams have and forecast rather closely given those terms.

If you give 50% BRI but you don't see a serious regression in the tax until 8% then large market teams are going to drive that mark up a few %. That ends up with the players getting 52-53% versus if you cockblock the regression at 4%.

Thats whats so misleading about this whole episode. The players got 57% last year but what was the luxury tax threshold set at relative to BRI. I don't think that it was at 57%. We really are not comparing apples to apples and we are fixating on one thing when both need to be viewed concurrently as they feed off each other.

Can you explain further how they are intertwined?

[DesignatedT]

Rick Barry thinks ‘Billy Hunter is one of the worst things that happened to the NBA’
By Kelly Dwyer

"If I was still a player today I would be totally ticked off by the fact that we didn't make a deal months ago. I really do believe that this could've been resolved and should've been resolved a long time ago. Why they always have to come down to this I don't know.
I'm not a big fan of Billy Hunter. I think Billy Hunter is one of the worst things that happened to the NBA. Yes he got them an unbelievable deal last time but he also was responsible for the lockout in the late 90's which cost the players one third of their salaries basically and got nothing for it. The same thing is happening here.
What they're doing is they're making a situation which is a bad situation worse by standing firm. Standing firm for what? You're standing firm to get nothing. All you're trying to do is minimize the losses that you have to accept in order for there to be a deal put in place."


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Rick-Barry-thinks-8216-Billy-Hunter-is-one-of-?urn=nba-wp10410&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[dylankerouac]

It seems to me like the owners want two things:

1) Return a profit regardless of market size (which happens in other sports, and I agree with this, every team should be returning a profit)
2.1) be able to compete for a championship regardless of market size if done correctly continue to do so for several years, i.e. 2.2 not easily lose their star players to larger markets

So plain and simple, the lockout is the owners fault for wanting these things and (even after being aware of these issues for several years) not being able to think of and present a deal to their partners (the players) in a way that doesn't completely screw the players.

[yavozerb]

It seems to me like the owners want two things:

1) Return a profit regardless of market size (which happens in other sports, and I agree with this, every team should be returning a profit)
2.1) be able to compete for a championship regardless of market size if done correctly continue to do so for several years, i.e. 2.2 not easily lose their star players to larger markets

So plain and simple, the lockout is the owners fault for wanting these things and (even after being aware of these issues for several years) not being able to think of and present a deal to their partners (the players) in a way that doesn't completely screw the players.

In essence, Melo and Bron should get an ass beating after this is all said and done by the players since they made a mockery of the old system...I really believe those 2 moves is what motivated majority of the owners to look out for themselves when the time came for another agreement.

[Giuseppe]

No, Seppe. The Cliff helps LA. At least in theory.

If the 3.5 to 1 is still in place it's an ELE for the Lakers. Even 1 to 1 at gross examination is an abomination to any business entity. 3.5 to 1? It's a death knell.

[yavozerb]

If the 3.5 to 1 is still in place it's an ELE for the Lakers. Even 1 to 1 at gross examination is an abomination to any business entity. 3.5 to 1? It's a death knell.

Ya, I agree seppe..3.5 is pretty much hard capping anyone from entering over the marked cap..

[mavsfan1000]

I'm just shocked at the number of people on this site that blame the players for the same thing you could easily blame the owners for. It is just awful logic. I'm also shocked at how you can't see what the owners are doing and how the players have made every concession; very large concessions & the owners not only fail to move forward, but threaten to move backwards?

I agree the players have been unorganized and shuffled their feet some, but that is the only thing you can be upset about towards them IMO. Even then I have a hard time getting upset at that considering they did that because they had the (foolish) hope the owners wanted to negotiate in good faith. The owners are the greedy liars here and this CLEARLY falls on them IMO.
Players are way overpaid. You can't deny that.

[baseline bum]

Players are way overpaid. You can't deny that.

If you go by Rashard Lewis then yeah, but the top tier players are paid far less than they'd get in an open market without artificial caps.

[DesignatedT]

Even with this "Terrible" offer the owners are proposing, it would still be the best deal in professional sports for players.

[DPG21920]

No. Also it would be far and away the best deal in sports for owners. Ask yourself why they have THE worst revenue sharing in all of pro sports.

[DesignatedT]

Even with union givebacks, NBA players will still be the best paid, best taken care of athletes in their peer group (all professional athletes). The new proposed deal still makes a ton of dollars and sense for NBA players, especially compared to the deal that was recently accepted by their NFL brethren.


In August, when NFL players agreed to reduce their share of revenues from 50 percent to between 47 percent and 48.5 percent and to lower the per team salary cap from $128 million to $120.4 million, I thought they set a horrible precedent for NBA players. NFL business has been booming and virtually all teams have been making money; yet, NFL players were willing to take less. How could NBA players expect to earn a greater share of their league's money than NFL players at a time when most NBA teams are losing money and many are absolutely hemorrhaging cash annually? Yet the deal on the table for NBA players, whether a 50/50 or 52/48 split in revenues, remains appreciably better than the NFL players' deal by all measures.

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/id/7181583/even-concessions-nba-players-best-deal-pro-athletes

[Nathan89]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33147/if-basketball-means-anything-to-owners

"The cliff," which is a term to describe the penalty for going one dollar into the tax. In the old system, teams that were a dollar below the tax threshold paid no tax and received, typically, millions from the league. Going just one dollar over, in other words, would cost those lost millions, plus a dollar in luxury tax for every dollar the team is over. There's an effort to reduce "the cliff" in the league's proposal. Both sides agree, however, that teams that spend hugely on salary will pay significantly more tax than in the past with a new graduated rate system.

Fuck me. That graduated rate system is still there {{{3.5-1}}} at last ganders.

That's an ELE for the Lakers.


No, Seppe. The Cliff helps LA. At least in theory.

For example the luxury tax line could be 70mil and the "cliff" could be 65mil. Thus encouraging teams to stay under the tax by 5mil to receive rewards but not penalizing a team until they get to 70mil.

Is my understanding correct?

FUCK THAT:bang:bang

[DPG21920]

Again, look at owner revenue sharing. That article is also opinion, not fact.

[DPG21920]

Not to mention this is a star driven league moreso than any other sport. They deserve it.

[baseline bum]

Argument boils down to "NFL players took it in the ass, so the NBA should too"

[Giuseppe]

For example the luxury tax line could be 70mil and the "cliff" could be 65mil. Thus encouraging teams to stay under the tax by 5mil to receive rewards but not penalizing a team until they get to 70mil.

Is my understanding correct?

FUCK THAT:bang:bang

I must admit now that you've explained it (if you're correct) I do feel better.

That obviously is what Deepy was trying to tell me, but, I panicked.

[Giuseppe]

Argument boils down to "NFL players took it in the ass, so the NBA should too"

Bend over. I'll fuckin' boil down.

[dylankerouac]

In essence, Melo and Bron should get an ass beating after this is all said and done by the players since they made a mockery of the old system...I really believe those 2 moves is what motivated majority of the owners to look out for themselves when the time came for another agreement.

You are probably right but in reality it's the Heat and Knicks that found a way to make a mockery of the old system. Though, they just made sure they had cap space for stars and have the luxury of being sizable markets. It should not be news to the owners that players like large market teams, the Lakers have been attracting stars for years, maybe longer. If all large market teams gain an advantage though then it's understandable that small market teams would want a change to the system. Still, the players don't deserve to be burned; players are still partners and should be treated like so.

[Nathan89]

It looks like the players are giving up a lot but that's simply because they had a ridiculously favorable agreement before. The owners couldn't start out at 43% and meet at 50/50. So they started with a higher BRI and negotiated a little and then held ground.

[baseline bum]

It looks like the players are giving up a lot but that's simply because they had a ridiculously favorable agreement before. The owners couldn't start out at 43% and meet at 50/50. So they started with a higher BRI and negotiated a little and then held ground.

No, the MLB has a favorable agreement. The NBA has one that ensures rookies and stars will never be paid market value.

[yavozerb]

If you go by Rashard Lewis then yeah, but the top tier players are paid far less than they'd get in an open market without artificial caps.

All i know is the average NBA salary is 5+ mil...thats pretty damn good and #1 in all professional sports

[yavozerb]

You are probably right but in reality it's the Heat and Knicks that found a way to make a mockery of the old system. Though, they just made sure they had cap space for stars and have the luxury of being sizable markets. It should not be news to the owners that players like large market teams, the Lakers have been attracting stars for years, maybe longer. If all large market teams gain an advantage though then it's understandable that small market teams would want a change to the system. Still, the players don't deserve to be burned; players are still partners and should be treated like so.

Like I said, ask the cavs and nugs how there partnerships went...In any business the ownership should have all or most of the say so, not star players...The NBA was headed down dark and nasty place if something was not done to fix this..

[baseline bum]

All i know is the average NBA salary is 5+ mil...thats pretty damn good and #1 in all professional sports

NBA teams only have 15 players maximum, and maybe 10 that actually play. That argument is almost like when the NFL refs went on strike and complained how they made less than NBA refs and MLB umpires for their once a week workday.

[TimmehC]

Also, look up the difference between "average" and "median" salary. For every Kobe salary, there's 10 getting paid like Gary Neal.

[baseline bum]

Like I said, ask the cavs and nugs how there partnerships went...In any business the ownership should have all or most of the say so, not star players...The NBA was headed down dark and nasty place if something was not done to fix this..

If I wanted to hire Einstein for my company, I would understand that he would hold an enormous amount of power to negotiate with since I can't find too many more talents like him.

[objective]

Owners have given up too much in this deal and it will come back to bite them in the ass. I already laid it out here (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5439290&postcount=405) how they were being fair in their offers.

It's not about the BRI split though, it's the huge system issue they gave up on long ago that will have them crying about locking out the players at the next opportunity.

There's NOTHING in the current owners offer that would prevent future cases of Rashard Lewis or Gilbert Arenas, or Eddy Curry (beyond one small trip on where he would have been fat). Or the many many others like them.

Without limits to how much of a contract can be guaranteed (like not at all or only 2 of a 4 year deal or 3 of a 5 year deal), salary cap albatrosses will continue to happen and continue to hamstring franchises. Doesn't matter if the BRI is 50 to the owners, 57 to the owners, or 43 to the owners, it's these guaranteed contracts that squeeze out the market for free agents and forces them to accept MLE deals or worse when teams can't just cut the non-performing players. And it painfully extends the rebuild time of teams that want to get better.

Even the proposed rule (that I don't even know is still in the deal) that tax paying teams can't do sign-and-trades wouldn't have prevented Rashard Lewis.

All that's happened is that albatross contracts will be one year shorter.

As long as there are no limits to the guarantees teams will continue to be screwed by their own decisions and the quitting of players. Even the best run teams as perceived by the experts make bad deals and can't get out of them (RJ comes to mind).

The owners gave up on the guarantee battlefront, what, a month before the first day of camp was cancelled?

If you're putting a season into jeopardy, do it to fix the system, and it's biggest flaw: albatross players hurting both teams and other players by hogging up cap room and not earning it when others should be getting that money.

[baseline bum]

Owners have given up too much in this deal and it will come back to bite them in the ass. I already laid it out here (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5439290&postcount=405) how they were being fair in their offers.

It's not about the BRI split though, it's the huge system issue they gave up on long ago that will have them crying about locking out the players at the next opportunity.

There's NOTHING in the current owners offer that would prevent future cases of Rashard Lewis or Gilbert Arenas, or Eddy Curry (beyond one small trip on where he would have been fat). Or the many many others like them.

Without limits to how much of a contract can be guaranteed (like not at all or only 2 of a 4 year deal or 3 of a 5 year deal), salary cap albatrosses will continue to happen and continue to hamstring franchises. Doesn't matter if the BRI is 50 to the owners, 57 to the owners, or 43 to the owners, it's these guaranteed contracts that squeeze out the market for free agents and forces them to accept MLE deals or worse when teams can't just cut the non-performing players. And it painfully extends the rebuild time of teams that want to get better.

Even the proposed rule (that I don't even know is still in the deal) that tax paying teams can't do sign-and-trades wouldn't have prevented Rashard Lewis.

All that's happened is that albatross contracts will be one year shorter.

As long as there are no limits to the guarantees teams will continue to be screwed by their own decisions and the quitting of players. Even the best run teams as perceived by the experts make bad deals and can't get out of them (RJ comes to mind).

The owners gave up on the guarantee battlefront, what, a month before the first day of camp was cancelled?

If you're putting a season into jeopardy, do it to fix the system, and it's biggest flaw: albatross players hurting both teams and other players by hogging up cap room and not earning it when others should be getting that money.

What would your view be on players sitting games out when they're underpaid?

[Nathan89]

No, the MLB has a favorable agreement. The NBA has one that ensures rookies and stars will never be paid market value.

I for one wouldn't watch the NBA if it had a MLB system. I can't be the only one. I wonder what the market value would look like once millions of fans stop watching.

[baseline bum]

I for one wouldn't watch the NBA if it had a MLB system. I can't be the only one. I wonder what the market value would look like once millions of fans stop watching.

I don't know; what does ARod's deal look like?

[Nathan89]

I don't know; what does ARod's deal look like?

I don't know; how long is the schedule and what does the average attendance look like?

[DPG21920]

NBA teams only have 15 players maximum, and maybe 10 that actually play. That argument is almost like when the NFL refs went on strike and complained how they made less than NBA refs and MLB umpires for their once a week workday.

Exactly. How people fail to realize this is crazy. This league is about stars and rare talents.

[baseline bum]

2004... Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are the best backcourt in the league but are on lousy rookie deals that pay them a total of $2.3 million together. Question to those like objective who don't believe contracts should be honored: what's your reaction when Parker and Ginobili decide they're sitting out until Holt rips up the discount contract and pays them market value?

[yavozerb]

NBA teams only have 15 players maximum, and maybe 10 that actually play. That argument is almost like when the NFL refs went on strike and complained how they made less than NBA refs and MLB umpires for their once a week workday.


Exactly. How people fail to realize this is crazy. This league is about stars and rare talents.

Disagree...There are always at least 3-4 players per roster who get very little to zero PT in a season. That is about 25% of all the players in the NBA. I can gurantee you that an NFL and MLB roster does not have 25% of its players do absolutely nothing in a season and still get paid..

[objective]

What would your view be on players sitting games out when they're underpaid?

as of now there is no renegotiating an existing deal.

If the players would agree to no guarantee past two years but with the option to renegotiate after two years, which would open the door for holdouts . . . I couldn't disagree.

[baseline bum]

Disagree...There are always at least 3-4 players per roster who get very little to zero PT in a season. That is about 25% of all the players in the NBA. I can gurantee you that an NFL and MLB roster does not have 25% of its players do absolutely nothing in a season and still get paid..

Those last few spots that aren't used are often non-guaranteed deals and short-term contracts. Bobby Simmons, Alonzo Gee, Garrett Temple... these guys made hardly anything. Udoka was cut. Chris Quinn played half the team's games. Steve Novak got signed with 30 games left in the season, and played most of them.

[DPG21920]

I just find it a little hypocritical that it falls on the players. If you want the NFL why not point out that it's the owners preventing that because they want the players to foot the bill and not participate in profit sharing?

[ElNono]

Some people that talk about ownership in the NBA just like any other business would do well to look at The History of NBA Labor (http://www.apbr.org/labor.html), especially the "ESTABLISHING A PLAYER-OWNER PARTNERSHIP" section.

[ElNono]

@robinlundberg Robin Lundberg
The NBA and the NBAPA just ordered dinner into their meeting. No word on how they'll split the check.

[ElNono]

JarraLJones Jarra Jones
The life of the @NBA lockout. Smh. RT @KingJames: Watching Akron vs Miss St on ESPNU. Let's go Zips!

[DarkGinobili]

Hope this gets resolved soon.

[GB20]

Again, look at owner revenue sharing. That article is also opinion, not fact.

The players are employees for a company that is losing money. How is that company supposed to stay in business and keep paying players if it keeps losing money.

[ElNono]

The players are employees for a company that is losing money. How is that company supposed to stay in business and keep paying players if it keeps losing money.

The NBA isn't a company. The players offered to offset the loses and then some.

[Tuddy]

The biggest problem i have is with the amount both the players and the owners get from broadcast rights (as with most sports). The income from this is generated by billion dollar corporations whose product has nothing to do with the product the viewer is watching. There is no way to measure
the level of consumerism attributed to the game being broadcast unlike ticket sales which are a definite figure. The broadcast rights negotiated by the networks should predominantly be going to developing the game across the country to make it stronger from the grassroots level. Try telling
that to a bunch of millionaires and billionaires :lol

[ElNono]

Major League Soccer Surpasses NBA And NHL In Per-Game Attendance (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/08/major-league-soccer-surpa_n_1082593.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000003)

[ElNono]

It's only getting worse if both sides keep on shitting on the fans.

[DPG21920]

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twupdates.jpg

[DPG21920]

The players are employees for a company that is losing money. How is that company supposed to stay in business and keep paying players if it keeps losing money.

Really? I guess they should operate just like a normal company and not under the protection of government immune to anti-trust protection. Also, they aren't losing money, the league overall is healthy and well. Just like anything, if there are a few bad parts, you scrap those parts and let the prosperous ones survive. You certainly don't ask the employees to foot the entire damn bill and GUARANTEE you a profit.

If they were all losing money and it was such a bad proposition, bottom level franchises wouldn't be selling for all time highs. Are these just the dumbest millionaires in the world? Also, if this were the real world, idiots who make dumb decisions that cost themselves money would be fired, but that isn't the case here either.

[baseline bum]

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twupdates.jpg

For real!?!

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_7tGY06P6TBk/SiT3Tu9XpEI/AAAAAAAAAMw/SdaHxwsgx6Q/football.jpg

[ElNono]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
No deal was considered imminent, but talks were expected to extend late into the evening. The two sides have been meeting for 7.5 hours.

[DPG21920]

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m524/jjutd/twupdates2.jpg

[DPG21920]

Don't get me wrong, BB, I don't have any hopes for people to magically come to their senses. I just be reporting da newz.

[ElNono]

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
8 hrs in. Re: progress as reported by Yahoo! et al: 1 high-ranking team exec previously skeptical now optimistic. But heard that before..

[Mel_13]

For real!?!

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_7tGY06P6TBk/SiT3Tu9XpEI/AAAAAAAAAMw/SdaHxwsgx6Q/football.jpg

:lol

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5453703&postcount=987

[Nathan89]

I think the owners have pressure because they can see a waterfall in the short distance and they are approaching it quickly. They know good and well that the players will never accept 47% or for that matter less than 50%. So they are currently as close to a deal that the players/owners will realistically agree upon and if they wait longer more games/money will be lost. Something has to happen...

Getting ever so close to that waterfall both the owners and players start to paddle together. If the deal doesn't get done tonight I predict within the next week.

[GB20]

not getting my hope up. this shit tricked me many time

[I. Hustle]

Manu is tweeting about it but it's all in Mexican.

[Nathan89]

I hate when people speak or type in Mexican.:bang

[ElNono]

Nothing new @ Manu's tweet... just a retweet of the same stuff posted earlier

[GB20]

Manu is tweeting about it but it's all in Mexican.

:lol

[Birn]

From reading all the tweets it's apparent the players have essentially conceded defeat and are just trying to get one last little bone the owners can throw their way. This was a total and complete blowout victory for the owners. Players have to be much smarter next time and do everything humanly possible to avoid a lockout or a strike. This should clearly illustrate to them that they will never have enough leverage against the owners in any labor dispute. They were flat out embarrassed by the owners during the entire dispute. They lost out on over a month's worth of game paychecks for a deal they could've taken well before the season started. Just plain stupidity, selfish pride, greed, and ignorance on the part of the players. Totally mind boggling....

[Spursfan092120]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u55q1w.gif

[GB20]

From reading all the tweets it's apparent the players have essentially conceded defeat and are just trying to get one last little bone the owners can throw their way. This was a total and complete blowout victory for the owners. Players have to be much smarter next time and do everything humanly possible to avoid a lockout or a strike. This should clearly illustrate to them that they will never have enough leverage against the owners in any labor dispute. They were flat out embarrassed by the owners during the entire dispute. They lost out on over a month's worth of game paychecks for a deal they could've taken well before the season started. Just plain stupidity, selfish pride, greed, and ignorance on the part of the players. Totally mind boggling....

this guy sound like KBP:lol

[Spursfan092120]

this guy sound like KBP:lol

and Timmy2Zo, tbh...wait.....






Timmy2Zo = KBP??