Resuming CBA talks

[Dex]

Holy Hell. Just when I was ready to say fuck this shit (again), I go to take a shower, come back....and an agreement has been reached! :elephant

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

#41, you're alright in my book pal. enjoy defending the championship! Make sure to send Lebron home crying on Christmas day. haha

[Dex]

:downspin: :downspin: :downspin: :downspin: :downspin:

:flag:

[timtonymanu]

Well I'll be damned. Lucy kept the football this time.

If only the court issues happened two months ago and we could have had a full season. Oh well a shortened season is better than none.

[ElNono]

Good. Would be interesting to read what the deal looks like

[Dex]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Players accepted 49-51 band, sources say..b-list issues (draft, sge limit, drug testing) to be discussed tomorrow
16 minutes ago

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Players got slightly more than 50% of BRI, but not quite 51, sources say....not sure if it's a band
23 minutes ago

[Uriel]

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES! My life is complete.

[MaNu4Tres]

:hungry:

:danceclub

[pookenstein]

Lucy is setting up again...

DYwC39LyUFw


Well I'll be damned. Lucy kept the football this time.


Holy Hell... an agreement has been reached! :elephant

[ChuckD]

The players thought they gained a little leverage by that lawsuit bullshit.... but again the owners shoot em down. At some point the players have to see the writing on the wall

I guess that leverage was pretty good. The owners didn't "give back" out of the goodness of their black little hearts on issues they said were "blood" issues before the union disbanded.

[Giuseppe]

^Anytime you lose 8 points on BRI and a total restructuring of your asshole you've no idea what leverage is.

Media will help the players now. They'll carry their water & shield them.

[TheProfessor]

^Anytime you lose 8 points on BRI and a total restructuring of your asshole you've no idea what leverage is.
Pretty much. Billy Hunter was an embarrassment through this entire ordeal.

[Giuseppe]

Each & every year of this new CBA the players will lose over a quarter billion dollars just on the BRI. That's criminal.

[ChuckD]

^Anytime you lose 8 points on BRI and a total restructuring of your asshole you've no idea what leverage is.

Media will help the players now. They'll carry their water & shield them.

Your math is shaky. It's 6 percent and change.

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Players got slightly more than 50% of BRI, but not quite 51, sources say....not sure if it's a band
23 minutes ago

The players were never keeping 57% and playing basketball again this decade, and if Laker fan is unhappy, I'm very happy. Sorry you won't be able to buy that team you wanted.:downspin:

[Giuseppe]

Your math is shaky. It's 6 percent and change.


The players were never keeping 57%

210 million per year then. If the CBA is 5 years that is over a billion dollars.

Fine...don't keep the 57%, but, don't give up 7 points on it +++ a complete restructuring of the system.

[ChuckD]

tee hee

[DPG21920]

The system will have changes but I don't see it being crazy different. Players wouldn't go through all this just to take a deal they hated. There will be additional luxury tax penalty but IMO it won't change spending habits.

[Giuseppe]

The system will have changes but I don't see it being crazy different. Players wouldn't go through all this just to take a deal they hated. There will be additional luxury tax penalty but IMO it won't change spending habits.

Yer going to sit there with a straight face and defend this fuckin' abortion? Deep, they lost in excess of a billion dollars on the BRI alone and that's just if it's a 5 year deal.

The penalties remained intact according to Larry Coon.

Sure, Media will massage it so nobody feels bad, but, it's a catastrophic event for the players.

It reminds me of that part in "Raging Bull" where DeNiro (LaMotta) let's Sugar Ray Robinson in to pulverize him. That is what has happened to the players.

[DPG21920]

I know the math, I'm the one that posted it. I don't care about the revenue split from a fan perspective. That won't impact the game. The system is what will bring about the changes and from what I've read players got most of what they wanted. There is a higher lux tax penalty but that actually helps the big markets; it hurts the little guys more.

You are a master of panic and I'm tired of talking you off the damn ledge. Just jump already.

[DPG21920]

But yes, the players ate the proverbial crap sandwich

[Giuseppe]

There is a higher lux tax penalty but that actually helps the big markets; it hurts the little guys more.

That's pie-in-the-sky and you know it.

[wildbill2u]

Anyone know of another business that guarantees the employees get 50% of the gross?

The players got a hellava deal on their last contract at 57% of gross when the NBA was in its glory at the top of its popularity and the owners thought it would never end.

Does anyone remember the 70s when everyone was either playing tennis or watching it on TV? Sports popularity comes and goes. Even the mighty NFL isn't what it used to be---and I blame the drop off in fan support with the advent of free agency for the players.

I used to know every player on the Cowboys right down to the third string because so many players stayed on one team for most of their careers. No longer. I don't even know the first string offensive line or defense any more.

How does that affect my feelings about the NFL> I don't mind missing a game on TV and I never bet on games any more. Sure, I'd like the Cowboys and the Texans to win, but it isn't quite as important anymore.

[DPG21920]

That's pie-in-the-sky and you know it.

No. It's what I believe to be true. Remember when I explained this earlier to you?

[Giuseppe]

^You want to dismiss the players giving in on the BRI. That is part & parcel to my whole point. The players got nothing from surrendering those 7 points except they were then bent over again on the system.

[Nathan89]

As long as they didn't change the "cliff".

Increase tax won't hurt a team that never plans on going into it. It's going to push a few teams that like to go into it a little to try an stay under. I'm not sure it will impact a team like the Lakers. They know their fans are bandwagon fans and they have to provide a winning team. Or else they will be gone.

[DPG21920]

They didn't really get bent over on the system is my point *[if they got their demands actually met which I'm assuming since we have a deal]

[FuzzyLumpkins]

^You want to dismiss the players giving in on the BRI. That is part & parcel to my whole point. The players got nothing from surrendering those 7 points except they were then bent over again on the system.

Im not sure that they players were guaranteed 57% of BRI under the old agreement but rather after the owners spent over the guaranteed limit that they got 57%. i have been trying to point that out but i am not sure that people understand what i am trying to say.

Under that idea they did not surrender 7 points but simply made it much more difficult to get there this time.

[yavozerb]

But yes, the players ate the proverbial crap sandwich

Yes they did without a doubt...About damn time they came to there senses.

[DPG21920]

Ball

[Giuseppe]

They didn't really get bent over on the system is my point *[if they got their demands actually met which I'm assuming since we have a deal]

Deepy, rollin' over now thats it's done.

You shit, you.:rolleyes

[Giuseppe]

Im not sure that they players were guaranteed 57% of BRI under the old agreement but rather after the owners spent over the guaranteed limit that they got 57%. i have been trying to point that out but i am not sure that people understand what i am trying to say.

Under that idea they did not surrender 7 points but simply made it much more difficult to get there this time.

But, that ain't what we've been told the last six months. We were told they did get 57, and that each point was worth $30 million.

& Hell yes, I'm quite confident Media will push your above equation now that the deed is done. But, make no mistake about it, when it was fluid it was 57-43 and everybody was signed up.

There is going to be a lot of rewriting history now that we're all friends again.

[ElNono]

^ You've been singing that this never was about the BRI, but now it is? You old fart you.

[ChuckD]

My favorite part was the "no Dwight Howard to the Lakers" clause that says that players traded in the last year of their contract cannot be re-signed with Bird rights.

[Giuseppe]

^ You've been singing that this never was about the BRI, but now it is? You old fart you.

When you piss it (a billion dollars) away without so much as a by your leave it's obviously of trace concern or consequence.

[DPG21920]

Deepy, rollin' over now thats it's done.

You shit, you.:rolleyes

You really can be an idiot sometimes

[ElNono]

When you piss it (a billion dollars) away without so much as a by your leave it's obviously of trace concern or consequence.

You never cared about the billion dollars... your religion has been about the luxury tax...

[DPG21920]

:lol Exactly. He doesn't understand this stuff so he just goes back and forth showing his ass.

[DMC]

Anyone know of another business that guarantees the employees get 50% of the gross?

The players got a hellava deal on their last contract at 57% of gross when the NBA was in its glory at the top of its popularity and the owners thought it would never end.

Does anyone remember the 70s when everyone was either playing tennis or watching it on TV? Sports popularity comes and goes. Even the mighty NFL isn't what it used to be---and I blame the drop off in fan support with the advent of free agency for the players.

I used to know every player on the Cowboys right down to the third string because so many players stayed on one team for most of their careers. No longer. I don't even know the first string offensive line or defense any more.

How does that affect my feelings about the NFL> I don't mind missing a game on TV and I never bet on games any more. Sure, I'd like the Cowboys and the Texans to win, but it isn't quite as important anymore.
I blame the dilution (not drop off) in fan support on the ability to change channels and watch something else. You can watch anything you want now, even during the regular season you can watch the Finals from last year or you can watch any other sport. That's a dilution, not a drop off. The leagues make much more now than they ever have.

[baseline bum]

Im not sure that they players were guaranteed 57% of BRI under the old agreement but rather after the owners spent over the guaranteed limit that they got 57%. i have been trying to point that out but i am not sure that people understand what i am trying to say.

Under that idea they did not surrender 7 points but simply made it much more difficult to get there this time.

I think the way it worked out was the players paid something like 9% of their salaries into an escrow fund which was then given to the owners if the league's net of salary ever exceeded 57% of the net BRI. If it didn't hit 57% (such as last season), the owners had to refund the escrow money as well as the difference between 57% net BRI and the net salary paid out. I'm not sure if the 9% escrow was prorated or it was an all or nothing deal.

[baseline bum]

Anyone know of another business that guarantees the employees get 50% of the gross?

The players got a hellava deal on their last contract at 57% of gross when the NBA was in its glory at the top of its popularity and the owners thought it would never end.

Does anyone remember the 70s when everyone was either playing tennis or watching it on TV? Sports popularity comes and goes. Even the mighty NFL isn't what it used to be---and I blame the drop off in fan support with the advent of free agency for the players.

I used to know every player on the Cowboys right down to the third string because so many players stayed on one team for most of their careers. No longer. I don't even know the first string offensive line or defense any more.

How does that affect my feelings about the NFL> I don't mind missing a game on TV and I never bet on games any more. Sure, I'd like the Cowboys and the Texans to win, but it isn't quite as important anymore.

It's never as important when the team is an embarrassment and not in the super bowl half the decade anymore.

[Giuseppe]

You never cared about the billion dollars... your religion has been about the luxury tax...

Precisely. And the players never cared about the billion dollars either. Or, the luxury tax for that matter.

[Giuseppe]

showing his ass.

I'm a trend setter.

I set trends.

[Giuseppe]

You really can be an idiot sometimes

At least I don't go cryin' to my aunt everytime somebody peeks up my moo-moo.

[ElNono]

Precisely. And the players* never cared about the billion dollars either. Or, the luxury tax for that matter.

* Fish never cared. He was set to deliver to the owners and he did.

[Giuseppe]

* Fish never cared. He was set to deliver to the owners and he did.

Anybody/everybody that bent over for the owners on this CBA shares the guilt.

[baseline bum]

On the plus side, it should be hilarious when Garnett goes and suckerpunches Fisher in the first Celtics-Lakers matchup of the year.



WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
One vet player texting me, doubting he'll vote to approve deal. "We (bleeping) caved," he said. He's been entrenched on issues entire way.

[Giuseppe]

On the plus side, it should be hilarious when Garnett goes and suckerpunches Fisher in the first Celtics-Lakers matchup of the year.

& vice versa.

[timtonymanu]

Lmao Garnett.

[Stalin]

finally :toast

[ElNono]

Anyone know of another business that guarantees the employees get 50% of the gross?

Anyone know another business that caps what employees can earn?

[ElNono]

Was that Pierce with the text?

[Warlord23]

Interesting read which explains some of the not-so-subtle implications of the proposed CBA: SI article (http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/11/26/the-mid-level-and-bird-rights/)

[Birn]

Anyone know another business that caps what employees can earn?

almost every successful business in America places limits on salaries and wages, dumb ass

[Mr. Body]

almost every successful business in America places limits on salaries and wages, dumb ass

Salary caps? No they don't.

[Seventyniner]

Salary caps? No they don't.

They do have salary budgets, though. And those tend to be hard caps.

[ElNono]

almost every successful business in America places limits on salaries and wages, dumb ass

Not caps. Not when they have to compete on a free market.







Dumbass

[ElNono]

They do have salary budgets, though. And those tend to be hard caps.

And that's why they have to make do with mediocre employees like Birn.

[Mr. Body]

A salary/personnel budget is far, far different from a salary cap. And the range between a janitor's salary and a CEO's salary in a Fortune 500 company would be far vaster than the difference between the most expensive and least expensive players on a team.

[Birn]

The question that was originally posed by EL Pussy Pussy was "Anyone know another business that caps what employees can earn?" The answer to that question would be Yes, of course. There are budgets for every employee level - be it janitors (El Pussy Pussy's profession), middle managers, executives, CEO's, etc.

[ElNono]

The question that was originally posed by EL Pussy Pussy was "Anyone know another business that caps what employees can earn?" The answer to that question would be Yes, of course.
There are budgets for every employee level - be it janitors (El Pussy Pussy's profession), middle managers, executives, CEO's, etc.

A budget isn't a salary cap. Capitalist Warrior would know that.

So your answer to my question would be NO. Which would be the right answer, BTW.

[The Truth #6]

Yeah, there is no salary cap in about every other profession that I can think of. There is the opposite: a minimum wage to protect the floor of a what a person can earn (though the courting of undocumented workers works to go under that, obviously.)

[ElNono]

Yeah, there is no salary cap in about every other profession that I can think of. There is the opposite: a minimum wage to protect the floor of a what a person can earn (though the courting of undocumented workers works to go under that, obviously.)

The only other professions are other professional sports leagues that are working basically under the same premise of the NBA (a government sanctioned monopoly). It's fairly apparent that capping salaries goes against the core of a free-market system.

[Mel_13]

So I see Birn showed up to have his ass handed to him again.

[underdawg]

The only other professions are other professional sports leagues that are working basically under the same premise of the NBA (a government sanctioned monopoly). It's fairly apparent that capping salaries goes against the core of a free-market system.

Actually, salesmen get their salaries and commission capped more often than you'd think. I didn't read most of the other posts, but I thought I'd throw that into the conversation.

[ElNono]

Actually, salesmen get their salaries and commission capped more often than you'd think. I didn't read most of the other posts, but I thought I'd throw that into the conversation.

Capped? Doubt it. If anything, they get what they negotiated when they got the job. There's nothing stopping them from bargaining a better deal with a different employer.

[ElNono]

lol @ all this bullshit and players taking it up the ass for more :cry parity :cry

The rich get richer, the owners keep spending like there's no tomorrow... :lol

[Bruno]

lol @ all this bullshit and players taking it up the ass for more :cry parity :cry

The rich get richer, the owners keep spending like there's no tomorrow... :lol

Do you realize that the main measure to ensure parity hasn't even started?

We will see how the new CBA will truly impact the whole parity issue in a couple of years when the new luxury tax and repeater tax will kick in.

[ElNono]

Do you realize that the main measure to ensure parity hasn't even started?

We will see how the new CBA will truly impact the whole parity issue in a couple of years when the new luxury tax and repeater tax will kick in.

Oh, I know the lux tax portion won't kick in till next season (IIRC). But none of these 3/4 years deals are changing by then.

Basically, teams like LA will happily pay the lux tax (especially after the cable deal they have), superstar players still prefer to head to a big market if possible even if they leave money on the table (apparently, endorsements are worth that much since they're not part of the BRI), and the relarively severe lux penalty actually keeps small markets small (Holt can't afford a $100 million payroll for 3/4 years, and the system is built such that he's incentivized to stay under the luxury tax to get the checks from the big spenders, which means the Spurs will have to keep building through the draft).

So this is more of the same, except that players get 49%-51% of the pie instead of 57%...

[Bruno]

Oh, I know the lux tax portion won't kick in till next season (IIRC). But none of these 3/4 years deals are changing by then.

Basically, teams like LA will happily pay the lux tax (especially after the cable deal they have), superstar players still prefer to head to a big market if possible even if they leave money on the table (apparently, endorsements are worth that much since they're not part of the BRI), and the relarively severe lux penalty actually keeps small markets small (Holt can't afford a $100 million payroll for 3/4 years, and the system is built such that he's incentivized to stay under the luxury tax to get the checks from the big spenders, which means the Spurs will have to keep building through the draft).

So this is more of the same, except that players get 49%-51% of the pie instead of 57%...

The new luxury tax will start next season and the repeater tax in 2 seasons.

The biggest early sign that the new CBA will do a better job than the previous one at keeping a competitive balance is Knicks not matching Lin contract. They are a big market team that has let go a good player because keeping him would have cost too much with new tax rules.

Lakers and their $100M payroll isn't a sign that the new CBA isn't working. When you look more closely, all the Lakers players are on a short term contract.

The NBA is in a transition phase between two CBAs. Nothing of what has happened this summer suggest that the new CBA won't do a significantly better job at keeping a competitive balance between teams. The only little worrying sign is what happens in Brooklyn with the Nets but it hasn't reached an alarming level.

[ElNono]

The new luxury tax will start next season and the repeater tax in 2 seasons.

The biggest early sign that the new CBA will do a better job than the previous one at keeping a competitive balance is Knicks not matching Lin contract. They are a big market team that has let go a good player because keeping him would have cost too much with new tax rules.

Lakers and their $100M payroll isn't a sign that the new CBA isn't working. When you look more closely, all the Lakers players are on a short term contract.

The NBA is in a transition phase between two CBAs. Nothing of what has happened this summer suggest that the new CBA won't do a significantly better job at keeping a competitive balance between teams. The only little worrying sign is what happens in Brooklyn with the Nets but it hasn't reached an alarming level.

Well, we'll see Bruno. Right now I'm not seeing it at all.

[Andthentherewas21]

Its hard to tell exactly what the effect will be until it happens. The new luxury tax and repeater tax seem to be prohibitive measures on paper, and for most of the league they probably will be.

However a team like that Lakers, which will literally be receiving $150 million a year from a TV deal that is not taxed and/or redistributed, gives them a lot more room to work even with the harsher penalties. Even with the new taxes, if the Lakers spent 2/3 of that TV revenue toward player salaries it would still give them a significantly higher salary budget than most of the league to work with, and one that few if any other team in the league would be able to match for any period of time.

On the other hand, the limitations like not being able to do S&Ts and other measures could stifle the type of acquisitions teams like the Lakers could do.

[baseline bum]

The new luxury tax will start next season and the repeater tax in 2 seasons.

The biggest early sign that the new CBA will do a better job than the previous one at keeping a competitive balance is Knicks not matching Lin contract. They are a big market team that has let go a good player because keeping him would have cost too much with new tax rules.

Lakers and their $100M payroll isn't a sign that the new CBA isn't working. When you look more closely, all the Lakers players are on a short term contract.

The NBA is in a transition phase between two CBAs. Nothing of what has happened this summer suggest that the new CBA won't do a significantly better job at keeping a competitive balance between teams. The only little worrying sign is what happens in Brooklyn with the Nets but it hasn't reached an alarming level.

They had Kidd and Felton already lined up. As bad as Felton was last season, he was a pretty solid point guard when he was in New York.

[ElNono]

It's also not that complicated to side-step the lux tax through pseudo-'endorsements'.

Player signs for less salary money and team arranges for 'endorsement' to cover the difference. The system actually encourages it, since both team and player benefit. The team takes less of a tax hit if any hit at all, and the player has to return less money to the league at season's end, which actually means less money to redistribute.

[Seventyniner]

It's also not that complicated to side-step the lux tax through pseudo-'endorsements'.

Player signs for less salary money and team arranges for 'endorsement' to cover the difference. The system actually encourages it, since both team and player benefit. The team takes less of a tax hit if any hit at all, and the player has to return less money to the league at season's end, which actually means less money to redistribute.

Do you know how prevalent this is? I know that one perk of playing for a big-city team is the potential endorsements, but obviously the team can't officially do what you say due to CBA circumvention rules. Would teams be willing to take that risk, or just let the players act on the unspoken fact that endorsements make playing in a big city better when player contract amounts would otherwise be equal?

[ElNono]

Do you know how prevalent this is? I know that one perk of playing for a big-city team is the potential endorsements, but obviously the team can't officially do what you say due to CBA circumvention rules. Would teams be willing to take that risk, or just let the players act on the unspoken fact that endorsements make playing in a big city better when player contract amounts would otherwise be equal?

I don't know how prevalent it is, and the NBA supposedly could penalize such arrangements (look at questions #29 and #30 here (http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm)). The thing is, it can be difficult to prove that certain endorsements are "sponsored" by the team.

As it states there, Minnie got caught because such an under-the-table arrangement was written on paper, but otherwise, it would be pretty difficult to prove. With big markets it's even more difficult, since players could legitimately want to give up a bit of salary to go to a bigger market because of endorsement possibilities. Especially with superstar talent and salary caps.

[therealtruth]

The way to see the CBA is working is teams are no longer signing players for crazy money AND crazy years. Players are going to have much shorter leashes.