Bernie Sanders

[Reck]

No she does not when she was the last Democratic standard-bearer, cheated and on top of that lost in an embarrassing fashion. She's completely out of touch, and as somebody being a prominent face of a party, she does damage whenever she continually says dumb things instead of owning up she was a terrible, unlikeable candidate.

And because her ego will never allow her to admit to that, she just needs to shut the fuck up. Stop talking for the people she does NOT represent.

She doesn’t represent me or anyone else other than her family for that matter.

Im talking in a general sense and a human level. If she’s alive, she has some type of right. Some of you people like to act like the very thing you rail against which makes you worst than a hypocrite.

[ElNono]

She doesn’t represent me or anyone else other than her family for that matter.

Im talking in a general sense and a human level. If she’s alive, she has some type of right. Some of you people like to act like the very thing you rail against which makes you worst than a hypocrite.

But she isn't talking about her family. She's still talking platitudes about politics specifically. She still think she's a voice to be heard, some sort of inspirational figure. And unfortunately her voice still carry some weight in the political spectrum.

She's like that old ass boxer that got his ass kicked and is still taunting the opponent after the fight. You need to know when your time is up, and what's best for your team. What's best for her team is that she shuts the hell up about politics and disappears.

[spurraider21]

How many patients had to 'wait for necessary medical treatments' in the the US because they can't afford healthcare at all? How much it costs in emergency room visits?

The US has had defacto rationing forever, it's just masqueraded behind economic have and have nots.
LeNono comes out of nowhere for the chase down block tbh

[Chris]

He's what Europeans would call a social democrat.

To European socialists, that's a dirty word. It signifies the bourgeois counter-revolutionary bargain with capitalism that leaves it fully intact, but adds a robust safety net and gives labor a seat at the master's table.

Is social democrat aka independent (?) because Chumpdumper was making that claim. I appreciate an honest answer for once.

[Isitjustme?]

But she isn't talking about her family. She's still talking platitudes about politics specifically. She still think she's a voice to be heard, some sort of inspirational figure. And unfortunately her voice still carry some weight in the political spectrum.

She's like that old ass boxer that got his ass kicked and is still taunting the opponent after the fight. You need to know when your time is up, and what's best for your team. What's best for her team is that she shuts the hell up about politics and disappears.

Tbh she beat Bernie very handily and polls show she would have done so again if she ran against him this year. so this idea Bernie himself beat her somehow is silly progressive propaganda and i say this as someone who is probably progressive

[ChumpDumper]

True. There's a network of over 35kImma stop you right there and tell you there are over a million doctors in the US.

[ChumpDumper]

Is social democrat aka independent (?) because Chumpdumper was making that claim. I appreciate an honest answer for once.He's been independent because he's called himself independent for 40 years.

:lol how ignorant are you, Qhris?

[CosmicCowboy]

Just got my company's 2020 rate increase from humana...up 16% starting at renewal. I still pay 100% of premium for employee and family...family is almost $2000 a month.

[ElNono]

Tbh she beat Bernie very handily and polls show she would have done so again if she ran against him this year. so this idea Bernie himself beat her somehow is silly progressive propaganda and i say this as someone who is probably progressive

What I meant by cheating isn't that she beat bernie unfiarly, but that we know she got debate questions in advance, etc. She had the deck stacked, and still couldn't pull shit off, because she sucks.

[DMC]

agreed.

i think having 2/3 of bk's being tied to medical costs is a huge flaw in any system. i think deductibles that prevent people from seeking care is a huge flaw. i think inflated costs resulting from the insurance companies' need to make exorbitant profits is a huge flaw. so are long wait times.

but i would say the system that leaves tens of millions of people uninsured, even more people underinsured with deductibles they cant afford, and one where we pay substantially more for the same services per capita than just about any other developed country is one that needs to be overhauled, not just tweaked

average premiums and deductibles are still rising year by year. the current administration's only solution so far has been to remove the mandate penalty. so basically the solution is that if health insurance is too expensive just dont buy it. brilliant.

What about high cost of legal representation? Sure, you can go with a public defender but the more wealthy get seasoned trial lawyers thus an imbalanced outcome vs the lower income population. Do you want the federal government to run that? So anyone can get legal representation, Universal Legal Representation paid for by taxpayer money. Are you willing to cap out at at GS 13?

These people you talk about still get medical care. There's a reason immigrants flood the borders, especially pregnant women, so they can take advantage of the free medical care in the US. Sure it costs taxpayers, but so would the universal HC you're talking about. The difference is the level of care when your doctor isn't tasked with 200 patients a week. Being broke should not be a viable method of survival.

[DMC]

How many patients had to 'wait for necessary medical treatments' in the the US because they can't afford healthcare at all? How much it costs in emergency room visits?

The US has had defacto rationing forever, it's just masqueraded behind economic have and have nots.

Same with all aspects of life. Defacto rationing for college, for food, for housing, for lifestyle.. because people want to be paid for the work they do. It's why we don't just settle for minimum wage jobs. About 250K Canadians come to the US yearly to seek better, more timely healthcare. This is after they've paid those taxes for the universal breadline version.

[Winehole23]

Is social democrat aka independent (?) because Chumpdumper was making that claim. I appreciate an honest answer for once.
He's a DSA member who caucuses with Democrats. Technically I believe that does make him an (I).

[DMC]

:rolleyes

you cant be kicked off your healthcare under a medicare for all system. if you stop paying your gardener, he'll stop showing up.


what is the "free legal" angle?

You work for reduced rates and have a waiting list of "clients". How many low income earners cannot afford good legal representation? Why should the wealthy have better legal representation? I say no one gets to pick their lawyer. They get taken from a pool of lawyers, all working for the government, so that no one buys better legal representation.

[DMC]

Just consider Bernie socialist and move on. The amount of mental gymnastics required to keep this clown off the socialist pedestal is amazing. It's sad anyone would even attempt to when the guy claims to be a democratic socialist.

[Winehole23]

Just glad she isn't running. It would be way better if she would just STFU.Despite pissing on the party homilies about the importance of unity, HRC could hardly do a better favor to Bernie right before the primaries start, than putting distance betwen her and him.

[Winehole23]

Just consider Bernie socialist and move on. The amount of mental gymnastics required to keep this clown off the socialist pedestal is amazing. It's sad anyone would even attempt to when the guy claims to be a democratic socialist.Social democracy isn't the same thing as socialism. The means of production don't get socialized. That's a big difference.

Pretending Bernie Sanders and the Squad are straight up Marxists is glib and wildly inaccurate. They're social democrats.

[Winehole23]

The GND as propounded by AOC definitiely partakes of socialism and central economic steering, but OTOH, so does national defense.

[Winehole23]

In the 2008-9 economic crash, bank losses were socialized, and profits were subsidized -- they still are, in fact.

Does that make bankers and TBTF non-banks, or the government that saved them, socialists?

Not rhetorical.

[DMC]

Social democracy isn't the same thing as socialism. The means of production don't get socialized. That's a big difference.

Pretending Bernie Sanders and the Squad are straight up Marxists is glib and wildly inaccurate. They're social democrats.

Mental gymnastics. The right certainly doesn't get those considerations.

[Chucho]

Imma stop you right there and tell you there are over a million doctors in the US.

And? You think there could be no shortage of Doctors, let alone quality doctors, based on the premise of DMC's post?

[ChumpDumper]

Mental gymnastics. The right certainly doesn't get those considerations.
No one here has denied Bernie will be painted as a socialist with no qualifiers.

You can stop acting like people are arguing against that.

[ChumpDumper]

And? You think there could be no shortage of Doctors, let alone quality doctors, based on the premise of DMC's post?Dunno. Willing to find out what happens when the shell game is ended.

[boutons_deux]

"GND as propounded by AOC definitiely partakes of socialism and central economic steering"

socialism?

"central economic steering" has been done by all parties with the tax code, forever.

[Winehole23]

Mental gymnastics. The right certainly doesn't get those considerations.At some point smearing any and all Dems as socialists will cease to be an effective tactic, regardless how well it plays to the lumpentrumpetariat. There are signs this might already be the case.

[TheGreatYacht]

Mental gymnastics. The right certainly doesn't get those considerations.

I know the difference between a liberterian (classical liberal), neoconservative, paleoconservative, alt-light and alt-right. I don't strawman like you cuz I actually get off my left-wing echo chamber and hear all sides.

[spurraider21]

I know the difference between a liberterian (classical liberal), neoconservative, paleoconservative, alt-light and alt-right. I don't strawman like you cuz I actually get off my left-wing echo chamber and hear all sides.
No. You have your echo chambers. You’ve got the progressive stuff with kulinski and dore and then your Jew conspiracy guys

[spurraider21]

What about high cost of legal representation? Sure, you can go with a public defender but the more wealthy get seasoned trial lawyers thus an imbalanced outcome vs the lower income population. Do you want the federal government to run that? So anyone can get legal representation, Universal Legal Representation paid for by taxpayer money. Are you willing to cap out at at GS 13?

These people you talk about still get medical care. There's a reason immigrants flood the borders, especially pregnant women, so they can take advantage of the free medical care in the US. Sure it costs taxpayers, but so would the universal HC you're talking about. The difference is the level of care when your doctor isn't tasked with 200 patients a week. Being broke should not be a viable method of survival.


You work for reduced rates and have a waiting list of "clients". How many low income earners cannot afford good legal representation? Why should the wealthy have better legal representation? I say no one gets to pick their lawyer. They get taken from a pool of lawyers, all working for the government, so that no one buys better legal representation.
I don’t think all industry should be state operated. I think having your health taken care of is the most basic of human rights, and that’s something that should be provided to all via taxpayer funding. If you also want to spend more money to try some “alternative medicine” or get non essential cosmetic procedures, i have no problem with people paying for that.

I don’t think the same way for every industry or field. With that being said public defenders are a constitutional right and i would agree that they are undermanned and underfunded. If you think the entire legal field should also be state provided, then go vote for somebody who agrees with you there. I’m not your guy. There are other places that give free and pro bono services to the poor. During law school i spent a year working at the low income taxpayer clinic where we gave free legal aid to poor people who were in trouble with the IRS or the state level franchise tax board, for instance.

And if healthcare is free like you’re saying how do people go bankrupt over medical bills or ever buy insurance?

[TheGreatYacht]

https://youtu.be/lQnAvJ2EiRs

:wow

Tucker Carlson > CNN & MSNBC

[TheGreatYacht]

Tucker Carlson Explains The Appeal Bernie Sanders Has To Republicans

https://youtu.be/j9GTizatyAw

BOOM

[DMC]

At some point smearing any and all Dems as socialists will cease to be an effective tactic, regardless how well it plays to the lumpentrumpetariat. There are signs this might already be the case.

Strawman

[DMC]

I don’t think all industry should be state operated. I think having your health taken care of is the most basic of human rights, and that’s something that should be provided to all via taxpayer funding. If you also want to spend more money to try some “alternative medicine” or get non essential cosmetic procedures, i have no problem with people paying for that.

I don’t think the same way for every industry or field. With that being said public defenders are a constitutional right and i would agree that they are undermanned and underfunded. If you think the entire legal field should also be state provided, then go vote for somebody who agrees with you there. I’m not your guy. There are other places that give free and pro bono services to the poor. During law school i spent a year working at the low income taxpayer clinic where we gave free legal aid to poor people who were in trouble with the IRS or the state level franchise tax board, for instance.

And if healthcare is free like you’re saying how do people go bankrupt over medical bills or ever buy insurance?

Its not a human right for anyone to be required to work for free. Seeking healthcare is a right, getting it is a privilege.

Not sure about your 2nd question. I did not say HC is free. In fact I said the opposite.

[spurraider21]

Its not a human right for anyone to be required to work for free.
i never said anyone should be required to work for free.


Seeking healthcare is a right, getting it is a privilege.
this is where there is the fundamental disagreement. i think getting healthcare is a basic human right, particularly in a country that actually has the resources to provide everybody with it.


Not sure about your 2nd question. I did not say HC is free. In fact I said the opposite.
was referring to this

What about high cost of legal representation? Sure, you can go with a public defender but the more wealthy get seasoned trial lawyers thus an imbalanced outcome vs the lower income population. Do you want the federal government to run that? So anyone can get legal representation, Universal Legal Representation paid for by taxpayer money. Are you willing to cap out at at GS 13?

These people you talk about still get medical care. There's a reason immigrants flood the borders, especially pregnant women, so they can take advantage of the free medical care in the US. Sure it costs taxpayers, but so would the universal HC you're talking about. The difference is the level of care when your doctor isn't tasked with 200 patients a week. Being broke should not be a viable method of survival.

[ChumpDumper]

StrawmanLooks like it's a prediction more than anything.

[spurraider21]

CNN poll: Bernie Sanders surges to join Biden atop Democratic presidential pack (https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/politics/cnn-poll-sanders-biden-january-national/index.html)
"join biden atop pack" aka takes the lead

(https://www.cnn.com/profiles/jennifer-agiesta)

[Winehole23]

StrawmanNah, that was what you were talking about -- the obviousness of the right wing to context, qualifiers and actual policy.

[Isitjustme?]

CNN poll: Bernie Sanders surges to join Biden atop Democratic presidential pack (https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/politics/cnn-poll-sanders-biden-january-national/index.html)
"join biden atop pack" aka takes the lead

(https://www.cnn.com/profiles/jennifer-agiesta)

Thats one poll tbh. Biden has a lead in all the averages but its tightening. Two other polls today showed him behind but hes definitely gaining.

1219998228164247553

[spurraider21]

of course its just one poll. the article was about that one poll :lol

[Reck]

CNN poll: Bernie Sanders surges to join Biden atop Democratic presidential pack (https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/22/politics/cnn-poll-sanders-biden-january-national/index.html)


"join biden atop pack" aka takes the lead

(https://www.cnn.com/profiles/jennifer-agiesta)

Good news/bad news imo. If Biden places in second in Iowa and NH and Bernie wins it, that still leaves super tuesday where Biden is expected to clean house.

Bernie could use Warren right about now.

[Isitjustme?]

of course its just one poll. the article was about that one poll :lol

Oh, I didnt know you were complaining about the headline thought you were claiming he was in the lead

[DMC]

i never said anyone should be required to work for free.

If healthcare is a basic human right, someone has to provide it. I think it's kind and sensible to provide healthcare, but I don't think it's a basic human right.


this is where there is the fundamental disagreement. i think getting healthcare is a basic human right, particularly in a country that actually has the resources to provide everybody with it.

Who's responsible for providing that basic human right? What does it encompass? Are surgeries included, like cosmetic, sex changes, liposuction, stomach staples, organ transplants, etc???

I cannot imagine someone being shitty enough to deny help to someone in dire need of it, but healthcare also includes preventive care. Is it a human rights violation to deny someone braces, a retainer, free cleanings? In fact, anything someone cannot pay for that's healthcare related you think is their right to just have it?



was referring to this

That's their mindset. To them it's free, they are never going to pay for it. I even said "Sure it costs the taxpayers" in the very next sentence so I still don't get your objection.

[DMC]

Nah, that was what you were talking about -- the obviousness of the right wing to context, qualifiers and actual policy.

I never called any other democrat on the ticket a socialist. So yes it was a strawman. Calling Bernie a socialist when he calls himself a democratic socialist isn't a stretch and it's not necessarily a prelude to calling all democrats socialists.

[spurraider21]

If healthcare is a basic human right, someone has to provide it.
sure. and nobody is saying it should be done for free. thats why its going to be taxpayer funded


I think it's kind and sensible to provide healthcare, but I don't think it's a basic human right.
and i disagree. thats ok.


Who's responsible for providing that basic human right? What does it encompass? Are surgeries included, like cosmetic, sex changes, liposuction, stomach staples, organ transplants, etc???
i'm ok with allowing the government to take a stab at laying out what is or isn't part of the package. if it ends up needing tweaks they can do so. i mean, right now you can have an insurance policy which (notwithstanding copays and deductibles) will cover some of those things but not all of those things. nothing prevents the government provided coverage from doing the same


I cannot imagine someone being shitty enough to deny help to someone in dire need of it, but healthcare also includes preventive care. Is it a human rights violation to deny someone braces, a retainer, free cleanings? In fact, anything someone cannot pay for that's healthcare related you think is their right to just have it?
well, bernie's plan, for instance, would include dental care. thats not to say you can go get a cleaning done once a month without any out of pocket expense. there would likely be some standard amount. i know for instance, a lot of vision plans allow you to have 1 exam per year, and will let you get new glasses frames every 2 years, or something like that. that would appear to be a sensible way to approach these things

there doesnt need to be a slippery slope here... well if you're going to allow health care then you have to allow every single type of preventative care i can list off the top of my head... no.


That's their mindset. To them it's free, they are never going to pay for it. I even said "Sure it costs the taxpayers" in the very next sentence so I still don't get your objection.
why doesnt everybody just do that then? people who go to the ER without insurance double their chances of filing for BK within 5 years. an expansion of medicare funding would also make that easier on the hospitals who no longer have to find a way to make the money up

[DMC]

sure. and nobody is saying it should be done for free. thats why its going to be taxpayer funded


and i disagree. thats ok.


i'm ok with allowing the government to take a stab at laying out what is or isn't part of the package. if it ends up needing tweaks they can do so. i mean, right now you can have an insurance policy which (notwithstanding copays and deductibles) will cover some of those things but not all of those things. nothing prevents the government provided coverage from doing the same


well, bernie's plan, for instance, would include dental care. thats not to say you can go get a cleaning done once a month without any out of pocket expense. there would likely be some standard amount. i know for instance, a lot of vision plans allow you to have 1 exam per year, and will let you get new glasses frames every 2 years, or something like that. that would appear to be a sensible way to approach these things

there doesnt need to be a slippery slope here... well if you're going to allow health care then you have to allow every single type of preventative care i can list off the top of my head... no.


why doesnt everybody just do that then? people who go to the ER without insurance double their chances of filing for BK within 5 years. an expansion of medicare funding would also make that easier on the hospitals who no longer have to find a way to make the money up

So you think their basic human right should be limited for people who cannot pay for it? You need to rethink your position on this. Maybe you should back away from the "basic human right" angle and say "basic human need". If it's a right, then someone would have to be held criminally liable if that right was denied to them, since it's a human rights violation. If I needed a kidney transplant and couldn't get one because I was too low on the donor list, my human rights are being violated.

Some of your comments are so naive I cannot even begin to address them.

[Winehole23]

I never called any other democrat on the ticket a socialist. So yes it was a strawman. Calling Bernie a socialist when he calls himself a democratic socialist isn't a stretch and it's not necessarily a prelude to calling all democrats socialists.Only if you ignore context, history, qualifiers and policy.

Go for it!

[spurraider21]

So you think their basic human right should be limited for people who cannot pay for it? You need to rethink your position on this. Maybe you should back away from the "basic human right" angle and say "basic human need". If it's a right, then someone would have to be held criminally liable if that right was denied to them, since it's a human rights violation. If I needed a kidney transplant and couldn't get one because I was too low on the donor list, my human rights are being violated.
im not interested in your usual semantic debates tbh

[koriwhat]

Only if you're ignorant of history, context and policy.

Go for it!

bernie is a socialist... he's communist scum who's two faced and the bottom bitch to his dom hillary the cunt.

[spurraider21]

bernie is a socialist... he's communist scum who's two faced and the bottom bitch to his dom hillary the cunt.
take your meds bro... get help

please

[DMC]

im not interested in your usual semantic debates tbh

But your argument hinges on it being a basic human right. If you're just using hyperbole, that changes everything.

[koriwhat]

take your meds bro... get help

please

truth hurts huh? if you can counter my argument then do so but you can't so here we are with your stupid lame meaningless jabs. fuck bernie and bernie bros like yourself too.

[spurraider21]

But your argument hinges on it being a basic human right. If you're just using hyperbole, that changes everything.
i think it should be considered a human right. for whatever its worth, the UN's declaration of human rights includes medical care.

you seem to be less comfortable with that term and prefer than i call it a need. i dont think the distinction is relevant in this discussion. there's a reasonable way to protect and ensure human rights are preserved. just because you cant get a daily dental cleaning doesnt mean your rights are being "limited." but the government has to act in a reasonable way.

[koriwhat]

i think it should be considered a human right. for whatever its worth, the UN's declaration of human rights includes medical care.

fuck your thoughts and fuck the UN too! :tu

[DMC]

i think it should be considered a human right. for whatever its worth, the UN's declaration of human rights includes medical care.

you seem to be less comfortable with that term and prefer than i call it a need. i dont think the distinction is relevant in this discussion. there's a reasonable way to protect and ensure human rights are preserved. just because you cant get a daily dental cleaning doesnt mean your rights are being "limited." but the government has to act in a reasonable way.

It's relevant. If it's a right, then someone must provide it or face criminal penalty. If it's a need, well we have a lot of needs.

The strawman about "daily dental cleaning" is duly noted. What if I cannot get yearly dental cleaning at no cost? There's also a false dichotomy in your comment - the choices aren't limited to "free healthcare" or "unreasonable".

I think everyone has a right to access to healthcare. I don't think the healthcare itself is a right. Everyone has that right now. If the argument is "cost of emergency rooms" that's not really a counter to the fact that people have access to healthcare now. Like legal representation, the quality and amount is dictated often by cost.

Is it worse that someone cannot get timely knee replacement due to the lack of coverage than the fact that someone might be convicted to life in prison because they cannot get good legal representation?

[spurraider21]

It's relevant. If it's a right, then someone must provide it or face criminal penalty. If it's a need, well we have a lot of needs.
where are you getting that from?


The strawman about "daily dental cleaning" is duly noted.
you brought up "denial of cleanings or braces." who would be the one denying the services? business owners, including dentists, have the right to refuse service (as long as its not discriminatory). the government provided coverage would just mean that the dentist gets paid through that government plan, and that patient doesn't pay out of pocket. dentists and doctors aren't all going to become government employees who must provide service to everybody that runs through the door.


What if I cannot get yearly dental cleaning at no cost?
can you explain this? if your government health/dental plan allows for it, and if its a single payer system (everyone on the same plan), then you just have to find a dentist and make an appointment. the rationale behind M4A is that nobody should have to forego necessary medical or dental treatment because they cant afford insurance. M4A is all about the cost.


There's also a false dichotomy in your comment - the choices aren't limited to "free healthcare" or "unreasonable".
i didnt say there was. medicare for all means everybody gets free health coverage. i brought up reasonable as a way it would be implemented.


I think everyone has a right to access to healthcare. I don't think the healthcare itself is a right. Everyone has that right now. If the argument is "cost of emergency rooms" that's not really a counter to the fact that people have access to healthcare now. Like legal representation, the quality and amount is dictated often by cost.
"access" barely has any cognizable meaning in this context. everyone has access to lamborghinis. everyone has access to billion dollar mansions. everyone has access to luxurious vacation homes and private jets.

nobody ever claimed that people dont have "access" to healthcare in that they are phsyically/legally precluded from obtaining it. its that a lot of people cannot afford basic needs and have no de facto access to it.


Is it worse that someone cannot get timely knee replacement due to the lack of coverage than the fact that someone might be convicted to life in prison because they cannot get good legal representation?
there's no need to change the subject to legal representation or get into the discussion of which is "worse." i think healthcare should be treated as a human right. let's just leave it at that.

[spurraider21]

1220124103090343937

translation:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/cba477b469b77f92c4bcfa8db64d4b08/tenor.gif?itemid=13864249

[DMC]

Bernie knows a "corporate bailout" isn't socialism. Dickriding duly noted.

[DMC]

where are you getting that from?

14th Amendment.


you brought up "denial of cleanings or braces." who would be the one denying the services? business owners, including dentists, have the right to refuse service (as long as its not discriminatory). the government provided coverage would just mean that the dentist gets paid through that government plan, and that patient doesn't pay out of pocket. dentists and doctors aren't all going to become government employees who must provide service to everybody that runs through the door.

Who goes to a dentist for cleanings every day? Eat that turd instead of pretending you didn't lay it. So then these people don't have the right. They have only the right to service that's paid for, just like the right to cable television, if you paid for it, or a full refund.


can you explain this? if your government health/dental plan allows for it, and if its a single payer system (everyone on the same plan), then you just have to find a dentist and make an appointment. the rationale behind M4A is that nobody should have to forego necessary medical or dental treatment because they cant afford insurance. M4A is all about the cost.

I'm saying how it is right now, if I was without a job and without coverage, could I walk into a dentist's office and demand a routine cleaning? If it's my right I should be able to.


i didnt say there was. medicare for all means everybody gets free health coverage. i brought up reasonable as a way it would be implemented.

Now the health coverage is free again? You said the government has to act reasonable. What else does the government act reasonable about? How about the IRS? ATF? FBI or CIA? HUD? EPA? DoE? What exactly does the government do efficiently and reasonably besides fight wars?


"access" barely has any cognizable meaning in this context. everyone has access to lamborghinis. everyone has access to billion dollar mansions. everyone has access to luxurious vacation homes and private jets.

Access to healthcare means that it's available, but it's not free. You should still receive a minimum level of care and the billing can be figured out afterward, but that's only access to healthcare (I didn't say access to hospitals or clinics).

If I have access to a Lambo, I get to drive a Lambo, or use a mansion I have access to. I could be charged for it (like a lease vehicle or rental property) but I still have access. It doesn't make it free. Do you have access to private jets? Let me guess, semantics again.


nobody ever claimed that people dont have "access" to healthcare in that they are phsyically/legally precluded from obtaining it. its that a lot of people cannot afford basic needs and have no de facto access to it.

Access to health care means having "the timely use of personal health services to achieve the best health outcomes" (IOM, 1993).

It doesn't mean you can walk into a clinic without being arrested.


there's no need to change the subject to legal representation or get into the discussion of which is "worse." i think healthcare should be treated as a human right. let's just leave it at that.

Right, because your profession should not be included in the giveaway.

[TheGreatYacht]

Bernie knows a "corporate bailout" isn't socialism. Dickriding duly noted.

https://mobile.twitter.com/sensanders/status/689243655635365889

[Winehole23]

Bernie knows a "corporate bailout" isn't socialism. Dickriding duly noted.Safety net for regular citizens = socialism

Safety net and decade long subsidies for insolvent banks and lenders = ???

[ElNono]

Same with all aspects of life. Defacto rationing for college, for food, for housing, for lifestyle.. because people want to be paid for the work they do. It's why we don't just settle for minimum wage jobs. About 250K Canadians come to the US yearly to seek better, more timely healthcare. This is after they've paid those taxes for the universal breadline version.

Depends, it's not all cases. In some areas, like with the elderly, or defense, or emergencies, or public infrastructure, we let the government use our tax dollars to fulfill a higher goal beyond what's sometimes cost-efficient, and/or profitable, for the well-being of the citizenry as a whole. And at the very end, that's the key discussion on healthcare too.

1.4 million Americans traveled to other countries in 2017 doing Medical Tourism, up from 750K in 2007. US healthcare cost is out of control, has been for a long time now.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(18)30620-X/fulltext

[ElNono]

As far as the questions I'm seeing of 'how would it work? who pays for what?', well, look at every country not named the US, where there are a plethora of different systems, with different degrees of government intervention. From fully government run, to mixed public/private systems, etc.

[TheGreatYacht]

The Grayzone's Anya Parampil slams mainstream media's anti-Sanders bias on Tucker Carlson Tonight

https://youtu.be/cPePSeWZF_0

[DMC]

Safety net for regular citizens = socialism

Safety net and decade long subsidies for insolvent banks and lenders = ???

Taking money from the federal government and giving it to the private sector is not socialism.

[DMC]

Depends, it's not all cases. In some areas, like with the elderly, or defense, or emergencies, or public infrastructure, we let the government use our tax dollars to fulfill a higher goal beyond what's sometimes cost-efficient, and/or profitable, for the well-being of the citizenry as a whole. And at the very end, that's the key discussion on healthcare too.

1.4 million Americans traveled to other countries in 2017 doing Medical Tourism, up from 750K in 2007. US healthcare cost is out of control, has been for a long time now.

https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(18)30620-X/fulltext

Yeah the Texas state government took 20 fucking years to complete the project on IH-35 but the private sector builds a toll road from Georgetown to San Antonio in about 3 years.

Just because some basic services are provided by the State and federal government using taxpayer money doesn't mean other services should be.

I understand some aspects when it's a problem of ours but if it's a problem of mine that seems to be something I should be responsible for. FEMA doesn't get involved if my house floods only if everyone's house floods.

[Winehole23]

Taking money from the federal government and giving it to the private sector is not socialism.what would you call the public paying for private losses?

welfare for real individuals equals socialism but welfare for fictitious individuals (corporations)somehow isn't?

what makes it not welfare in your opinion?

[Winehole23]

Sanders also leads head to head polling of all candidates vs. Trump

1220210283286843392

[spurraider21]

Taking money from the federal government and giving it to the private sector is not socialism.
Redistribution of wealth via taxes

[spurraider21]

I have never once thought “gee i wish there was a toll road coming up” when driving

[Millennial_Messiah]

Sanders also leads head to head polling of all candidates vs. Trump

1220210283286843392

giving Trump the normative +7 due to leftward poll bias and primary stages, it seems Bernie is the only one with a legit shot to beat Trump H2H

[spurraider21]

giving Trump the normative +7 due to leftward poll bias and primary stages, it seems Bernie is the only one with a legit shot to beat Trump H2H
That’s neat

[Millennial_Messiah]

Yeah the Texas state government took 20 fucking years to complete the project on IH-35 but the private sector builds a toll road from Georgetown to San Antonio in about 3 years.

Just because some basic services are provided by the State and federal government using taxpayer money doesn't mean other services should be.

I understand some aspects when it's a problem of ours but if it's a problem of mine that seems to be something I should be responsible for. FEMA doesn't get involved if my house floods only if everyone's house floods.

410 and Marbach area construction took like 5 years for a teeny tiny stretch of road that spanned middle and high school for me.

And to add to your point, the IH-35 project that took 20 years still isn't finished... there are still a good handful of 5-10 mile wide stretches between SA and Hillsboro (the 35W/35E junction) that you have to slow down to 60mph for "work zones" even though I've never seen any workers actually present.

There's your property and sales tax money at work.

[Millennial_Messiah]

That’s neat

2016

[ChumpDumper]

:lol comparing I35 to a toll road built through cow pastures.

[spurraider21]

2016
What about it. National polls capture the popular vote. Trump lost that by millions

[Millennial_Messiah]

What about it. National polls capture the popular vote. Trump lost that by millions

But not by near the % margin the polls had indicated, especially for the states that mattered.

Exit polls in early Nov. 2016 had Hillary +11, +7, +9, 12 in states like MI and WI....lol... MN +14 and +16 and she barely won there, etc.

[ChumpDumper]

But not by near the % margin the polls had indicated, especially for the states that mattered.

Exit polls in early Nov. 2016 had Hillary +11, +7, +9, 12 in states like MI and WI....lol... MN +14 and +16 and she barely won there, etc.Do you mean exit polls of early voters?

[Millennial_Messiah]

Do you mean exit polls of early voters?

that, and public opinion polls in general... not just the left wing poll companies but also FOX News, Rasmussen, etc. all had that. Fox had Hillary +7 with a +/- 4 MOE and she only won the overall no-state popular vote by +2.

Main thing is how far left CA has gotten (enormous Hispanic baby boom there over the past 30 years, and the responsive white flight) has tilted the scales... it's remained by far the most populous state in the US with a steady 55/538 (10.23%) of the population, but it's continued to trend leftward towards 75-25 Dem majority, and they go out to vote in droves. But that doesn't really help the Dems in the EC.

[TheGreatYacht]

410 and Marbach area construction took like 5 years for a teeny tiny stretch of road that spanned middle and high school for me.

And to add to your point, the IH-35 project that took 20 years still isn't finished... there are still a good handful of 5-10 mile wide stretches between SA and Hillsboro (the 35W/35E junction) that you have to slow down to 60mph for "work zones" even though I've never seen any workers actually present.

There's your property and sales tax money at work.

Those are corrupt politicians prioritizing upper class towns who pay higher property taxes over the lower class and ghetto parts of San Antonio. Doesn't sound right but that's the way our corrupt system is currently set up.

Wanna have better public education? Move into a higher income neighborhood where property taxes run anywhere from $7k-$10k and I guarantee you that their schools will be better than some ghetto area in the SAISD.

[DMC]

As far as the questions I'm seeing of 'how would it work? who pays for what?', well, look at every country not named the US, where there are a plethora of different systems, with different degrees of government intervention. From fully government run, to mixed public/private systems, etc.

These are old arguments and they've been hashed out already multiple times.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Those are corrupt politicians prioritizing upper class towns who pay property taxes over the lower class and ghetto parts of San Antonio. Doesn't sound right but that's the way our corrupt system is currently set up.

then again, it really doesn't matter how much money you pour into the "ghetto" parts of SA, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Harlem, LA, Detroit, NOLA or anywhere else... even if you gave each and every individual living there a $50k UBI, they would continue to sell and use drugs and shoot people, because it's firmly embedded in their culture like starch in potatoes.

[DMC]

By the way I'm still waiting for someone to name one of the Departments of the federal government that's efficient and effective.

Why do people keep ignoring the difficult questions and only go for the low-hanging fruit?

[Millennial_Messiah]

By the way I'm still waiting for someone to name one of the Departments of the federal government that's efficient and effective.

Why do people keep ignoring the difficult questions and only go for the low-hanging fruit?

IRS

[TheGreatYacht]

By the way I'm still waiting for someone to name one of the Departments of the federal government that's efficient and effective.

Why do people keep ignoring the difficult questions and only go for the low-hanging fruit?

Who runs those departments? Who writes the laws to rig the rules in their favor? The billionaires and corporations. We have the fox guarding the henhouse. The same people who lobby our politicians.

That very same government who blind patriots conveniently trust with their lives to tell them the truth when it comes to bombing Arab countries.

[ChumpDumper]

that, and public opinion polls in general... not just the left wing poll companies but also FOX News, Rasmussen, etc. all had that. Fox had Hillary +7 with a +/- 4 MOE and she only won the overall no-state popular vote by +2.

Main thing is how far left CA has gotten (enormous Hispanic baby boom there over the past 30 years, and the responsive white flight) has tilted the scales... it's remained by far the most populous state in the US with a steady 55/538 (10.23%) of the population, but it's continued to trend leftward towards 75-25 Dem majority, and they go out to vote in droves. But that doesn't really help the Dems in the EC.Hm, I know of no exit polling of early voters. got a link to them?

[spurraider21]

14th Amendment.
where does the 14th amendment state that violations are subject to criminal penalty?


Who goes to a dentist for cleanings every day? Eat that turd instead of pretending you didn't lay it. So then these people don't have the right.
thats why i said reasonable.


They have only the right to service that's paid for, just like the right to cable television, if you paid for it, or a full refund.
but thats not how insurance works. you pay a set premium regardless of how many times you went to the hospital. except under this system if would be taxes instead of premium. and like i said, the government should exercise it reasonably


I'm saying how it is right now, if I was without a job and without coverage, could I walk into a dentist's office and demand a routine cleaning? If it's my right I should be able to.
and im saying medicare for all deals with the cost aspect of this. nobody should be the position to forego necessary care because they cant afford it


Now the health coverage is free again? You said the government has to act reasonable. What else does the government act reasonable about? How about the IRS? ATF? FBI or CIA? HUD? EPA? DoE? What exactly does the government do efficiently and reasonably besides fight wars?
where did i say its free. its taxpayer funded, free at the point of service. you dont have to decide if you can afford to go to the doctor next week or not. thats the whole point of M4A


Access to healthcare means that it's available, but it's not free. You should still receive a minimum level of care and the billing can be figured out afterward, but that's only access to healthcare (I didn't say access to hospitals or clinics).
yeah, and access means dick-all if you cant afford it. and unless you are in the need of emergency care, no you cant just get some care and figure it out afterwards. but right now EMTALA requires emergency departments to stabilize you before they dump you on the street, doesnt mean they have to give you the actual care you need. thats not nearly enough


If I have access to a Lambo, I get to drive a Lambo, or use a mansion I have access to. I could be charged for it (like a lease vehicle or rental property) but I still have access. It doesn't make it free. Do you have access to private jets? Let me guess, semantics again.

Access to health care means having "the timely use of personal health services to achieve the best health outcomes" (IOM, 1993).

It doesn't mean you can walk into a clinic without being arrested.

im saying access means jack shit for somebody who cant afford it. and basic health is not something that society should treat as "well you can have it if you can afford it out of pocket"


Right, because your profession should not be included in the giveaway.
its not a giveaway. nobody said doctors have to work without pay. and in this country you already are entitled to free legal representation if your liberty is at stake. public defense is a good profession that i was hoping to get into back in CA before i moved.

and my wife is in med school right now, so it would still impact me directly.

spin it however you want, its still a deflection

[Winehole23]

By the way I'm still waiting for someone to name one of the Departments of the federal government that's efficient and effective.

Why do people keep ignoring the difficult questions and only go for the low-hanging fruit?Medicare/Medicaid

[spurraider21]

nasa

[boutons_deux]

Medicare/Medicaid

Certainly NOT the DoD, but that doesn't bother adoring, flag-fetish rightwingnutjobs

[TheGreatYacht]

Bernie Sanders FINALLY Hits Back At Lyin' Joe Biden

https://youtu.be/BQZS_H1J4mk

[Winehole23]

Medicare/MedicaidLower overhead, lower administrative costs.

[spurraider21]

Lower overhead, lower administrative costs.
and no need for profit

[Winehole23]

and no need for profitIf it were legal to allow the USG to use its bargaining power with drug companies, it could drive costs even lower.

[spurraider21]

If it were legal to allow the USG to use its bargaining power with drug companies, it could drive costs even lower.
the VA already does so

[Winehole23]

the VA already does soAs it should. Are the lives of ordinary citizens worth less than US officers?

[DMC]

where does the 14th amendment state that violations are subject to criminal penalty?


thats why i said reasonable.


but thats not how insurance works. you pay a set premium regardless of how many times you went to the hospital. except under this system if would be taxes instead of premium. and like i said, the government should exercise it reasonably


and im saying medicare for all deals with the cost aspect of this. nobody should be the position to forego necessary care because they cant afford it


where did i say its free. its taxpayer funded, free at the point of service. you dont have to decide if you can afford to go to the doctor next week or not. thats the whole point of M4A


yeah, and access means dick-all if you cant afford it. and unless you are in the need of emergency care, no you cant just get some care and figure it out afterwards. but right now EMTALA requires emergency departments to stabilize you before they dump you on the street, doesnt mean they have to give you the actual care you need. thats not nearly enough



im saying access means jack shit for somebody who cant afford it. and basic health is not something that society should treat as "well you can have it if you can afford it out of pocket"


its not a giveaway. nobody said doctors have to work without pay. and in this country you already are entitled to free legal representation if your liberty is at stake. public defense is a good profession that i was hoping to get into back in CA before i moved.

and my wife is in med school right now, so it would still impact me directly.

spin it however you want, its still a deflection
Because this streets in LA are just full of homeless people dying because they can't get good medical coverage.

[spurraider21]

Because this streets in LA are just full of homeless people dying because they can't get good medical coverage.
holy non sequitur, batman!

[TheGreatYacht]

Krystal Ball DESTROYS Clinton Advisor With Facts And Logic About Bernie

https://youtu.be/0GT2EOL13Wo

[DMC]

nasa

:lmao

[DMC]

holy non sequitur, batman!

If the poorest of the poor in this country still get medical care, what are you really hoping to accomplish? Someone might lose their job and not be able to get that gender reassignment surgery?

[Winehole23]

If the poorest of the poor in this country still get medical care, what are you really hoping to accomplish? Someone might lose their job and not be able to get that gender reassignment surgery?

Hey, what about Medicare/Medicaid?

[DMC]

Hey, what about Medicare/Medicaid?

What about it?

[spurraider21]

If the poorest of the poor in this country still get medical care, what are you really hoping to accomplish? Someone might lose their job and not be able to get that gender reassignment surgery?
your rebuttals have now boiled down to

- but it wont solve homelessness
- you dont care for transgenders

[spurraider21]

:lmao
oh, ok

[Winehole23]

What about it?Efficient government program.

[Winehole23]

Did you forget your question already?

[DMC]

Are undocumented immigrants entitled to medicare or medicaid?

With porous borders there's no way to control the user base of a program that has a very finite amount of payers. Taxing the working citizens of the US isn't going to relieve world poverty. It will just make us all poor.

[DMC]

Did you forget your question already?

Did you forget to ask that in your previous response already?

[TheGreatYacht]

Are undocumented immigrants entitled to medicare or medicaid?

With porous borders there's no way to control the user base of a program that has a very finite amount of payers. Taxing the working citizens of the US isn't going to relieve world poverty. It will just make us all poor.
The cat is out of the bag :lol

[DMC]

The cat is out of the bag :lol

^immigrant and anti-Semite aka Iranian or some other desert nomad.

[spurraider21]

Are undocumented immigrants entitled to medicare or medicaid?

With porous borders there's no way to control the user base of a program that has a very finite amount of payers. Taxing the working citizens of the US isn't going to relieve world poverty. It will just make us all poor.
:lol det strawman

i'm all for tightening border security and reforming our immigration system (i just dont believe that putting up a wall and mass deportations is viable or effective solution). i dont think it makes sense to put a pause on healthcare reform just because immigration hasnt yet been resolved

[Winehole23]

Did you forget to ask that in your previous response already?
That's a deflection. Are you allergic to straightforward replies?

[DMC]

:lol det strawman

i'm all for tightening border security and reforming our immigration system. i dont think it makes sense to put a pause on healthcare reform just because immigration hasnt yet been resolved

So you want a registered number of payers to cover the costs of an unknown number of insurgents so they have their "basic human rights" given to them, and you expect that system to be viable? :lol

[spurraider21]

So you want a registered number of payers to cover the costs of an unknown number of insurgents so they have their "basic human rights" given to them, and you expect that system to be viable? :lol
i mentioned border security and immigration reform in that very post

as it stands now, undocumented immigrants dont get medicare. they dont necessarily have to get coverage under M4A either. there are a lot of nuances to a big overhaul like this. but if this is now the extent of your objections, we've made some progress

[DMC]

That's a deflection. Are you allergic to straightforward replies?
Just waiting for you to finish your mental stuttering.

[Winehole23]

Are undocumented immigrants entitled to medicare or medicaid?

With porous borders there's no way to control the user base of a program that has a very finite amount of payers. Taxing the working citizens of the US isn't going to relieve world poverty. It will just make us all poor.Immigrants to the USA work hard. How long have you lived in Texas?

Who cooks your restaurant meal?

Who turned your hotel bed?

Who picked the gréens for your salad?

Who built the structure you ate it in?

Who poured the concrete for the roads and sidewalks that took you there?

[DMC]

i mentioned border security and immigration reform in that very post

You said the "reform" doesn't have to wait. So you want to have known number of payers cover an unknown number of immigrants?

You cannot start rationing the supplies until you have a headcount.

[spurraider21]

You said the "reform" doesn't have to wait. So you want to have known number of payers cover an unknown number of immigrants?

You cannot start rationing the supplies until you have a headcount.
lets get them to pay taxes by offering the ones here a pathway to citizenship. have them put some skin in the game

[DMC]

Immigrants to the USA work hard. How long have you lived in Texas?

Who cooks your restaurant meal?

Who turned your hotel bed?

Who picked the gréens for your salad?

Who build the structure you ate it in?

Immigrants are fine. Undocumented immigrants are not.

Save your righteous indignation for someone who gives a fuck.

[DMC]

lets get them to pay taxes by offering the ones here a pathway to citizenship. have them put some skin in the game

Go do that then let me know when it's done. Then we can talk about rationing out my money for their well being.

[Winehole23]

Just waiting for you to finish your mental stuttering.I'm waiting for your response to my direct reply. We're all waiting.

[spurraider21]

Go do that then let me know when it's done. Then we can talk about rationing out my money for their well being.
im ok with prioritizing healthcare over the immigration issue. i dont think it makes sense to keep nearly half of american adults who are uninsured or underinsured just because we havent solved the separate immigration issue first

[Winehole23]

Immigrants are fine. Undocumented immigrants are not.

Save your righteous indignation for someone who gives a fuck.They all improved your life. Your ingratitude is clear. Work is work, regardless of immigration status.

[TheGreatYacht]

Some Democrats might be in favor of giving healthcare to undocumented immigrants but I highly doubt that it would ever pass Congress. I think most congressmen know that if they were to do such thing it would piss off a lot of loyal Democrat voters. Shit I would be pissed myself. I'm for a higher social safety net but you cannot have open borders. Common sense.

[DMC]

What's in it for me?

[DMC]

im ok with prioritizing healthcare over the immigration issue.

Of course you are, you have no skin in the game either. You're a fresh starter and your spouse isn't even in the workforce yet. Give it 10 years. By then you'll be an established attorney and she will be a doctor, you can give all your money to the poor. She can provide free medical care while you provide free legal advice and representation.

[DMC]

They all improved your life. Your ingratitude is clear. Work is work, regardless of immigration status.

That's retarded.

[TheGreatYacht]

What's in it for me?

You no longer have to pay expensive health insurance premiums through your employer or worry about high deductibles and out of pocket expenses should you ever get a heart attack.

[Winehole23]

You said the "reform" doesn't have to wait. So you want to have known number of payers cover an unknown number of immigrants?

You cannot start rationing the supplies until you have a headcount.There's no scarcity of resources in the richest country ever. There's only a scarcity of political will.

[spurraider21]

What's in it for me?
the cost of your health coverage would likely go down, when factoring all the elements to it... premiums, deductibles, copays

[DMC]

There's no scarcity of reslurces in the richest country ever. There-s only a scarxity of political will.

Bumper stickers and fortune cookies... and you.

[Winehole23]

Bumper stickers and fortune cookies... and you.Non-sequiturs and nonsense...and you.

[DMC]

the cost of your health coverage would likely go down, when factoring all the elements to it... premiums, deductibles, copays

As my taxes double. End result is I bring home less money for worse medical coverage than I have now, meanwhile the "free all you can eat" sign at the porous border you're not as concerned about attracts even more illegals.

I thought the ACA was supposed to fix everything.

[spurraider21]

Of course you are, you have no skin in the game either. You're a fresh starter and your spouse isn't even in the workforce yet. Give it 10 years. By then you'll be an established attorney and she will be a doctor
of course i do.

right now we live on a single income while trying to manage my student loans + her tuition. we also pay thousands annually for health coverage for the two of us. but thanks for the lecture.

the notion that it will be worse for us when she's a doctor is laughable. even if taxes are higher, our household income would still be much larger than it is now. the time when higher taxes would have the most strain on us is now.


you can give all your money to the poor. She can provide free medical care while you provide free legal advice and representation.
useless snark

[DMC]

of course i do.

right now we live on a single income while trying to manage my student loans + her tuition. we also pay thousands annually for health coverage for the two of us.

So you'd end up with more money in your pocket with the single payer system?

Of course it's useless snark, you ain't giving shit away. People my age worked their asses off, have been through your situation without crying for the older generation to bail us out.

"We want our loans forgiven!"

"We want free healthcare!"

"We want to live with parents until age 26!"

[Winehole23]

That's retarded.How so?

Walk us through it.

How does immigration statis nullify the value of work done in this country?

Isn't labor arbitrage good for business ?

[spurraider21]

As my taxes double. End result is I bring home less money for worse medical coverage than I have now, meanwhile the "free all you can eat" sign at the porous border you're not as concerned about attracts even more illegals.
:rolleyes

replace your premium/dedictibles/copays with the taxes. overall cost will drop because you have cheaper administrative overhead and no insurance middleman who requires billions in profits, in addition to a single payer system having negotiating leverage for cost of services and, more importantly, drugs


I thought the ACA was supposed to fix everything.
the ACA was weak and has been criticized on this board for that reason. it made some improvements (coverage guaranteed for people with pre-existing conditions, increasing age during which kids can be covered under parents' plan, and expansion to medicaid. but it wasnt a system overhaul. didnt do much of anything to address the cost of care.


So you'd end up with more money in your pocket with the single payer system?
yes. that's the point. the tax increase i'd see would be trumped by my eliminated premiums alone, let alone deductibles/copays.

either way you slice, right now and the next several years are probably going to be the toughest on us, financially. for the last couple of years we had 2 incomes and no tuition to pay, just loan payments and cost of living. now we are on one less income + are dealing with substantial tuition. if there was ever a time where i had skin in the game, its now.

later when we are on two incomes (with her's likely be larger than mine), taxes could be raised by 20% on us and we'd still have a much more comfortable standard of living and more discretionary income than we do now

[spurraider21]

So you'd end up with more money in your pocket with the single payer system?

Of course it's useless snark, you ain't giving shit away. People my age worked their asses off, have been through your situation without crying for the older generation to bail us out.

"We want our loans forgiven!"


In 1979, it took a student working at minimum wage ($2.90 per hour) 385.5 hours to pay off one year of the average college tuition. If a student worked a full-time job (40 hours a week) for an entire summer, he or she would have worked 480 hours.

Today, it takes 2,229 hours working at the federal minimum wage ($7.25 per hour) to pay off one year of the average college tuition.
https://newrepublic.com/article/122814/how-many-hours-would-it-take-you-work-todays-college-tuition

despite having to walk uphill both ways in the snow, it was easier


"We want free healthcare!"
not free, taxpayer funded. but would be cheaper on average. im sorry your generation didnt want to do anything to fix a shitty, overpriced, for-profit healthcare system.

[DarrinS]

What's in it for me?

Higher taxes


Bernie likes to point out the Scandinavian model -- places like Sweden have super high tax rates.

[DMC]

:rolleyes

replace your premium/dedictibles/copays with the taxes. overall cost will drop because you have cheaper administrative overhead and no insurance middleman who requires billions in profits, in addition to a single payer system having negotiating leverage for cost of services and, more importantly, drugs


the ACA was weak and has been criticized on this board for that reason. it made some improvements (coverage guaranteed for people with pre-existing conditions, increasing age during which kids can be covered under parents' plan, and expansion to medicaid. but it wasnt a system overhaul. didnt do much of anything to address the cost of care.


yes. that's the point. the tax increase i'd see would be trumped by my eliminated premiums alone, let alone deductibles/copays.

either way you slice, right now and the next several years are probably going to be the toughest on us, financially. for the last couple of years we had 2 incomes and no tuition to pay, just loan payments and cost of living. now we are on one less income + are dealing with substantial tuition. if there was ever a time where i had skin in the game, its now.

later when we are on two incomes (with her's likely be larger than mine), taxes could be raised by 20% on us and we'd still have a much more comfortable standard of living and more discretionary income than we do now

So it's not about healthcare for all. It's about more money for SR21 during this phase in the planned dynasty. At my phase in my own dynasty, it would be less money in my pocket, so no thanks. Again, I am not interested in donating money to the "Save the world" pipe dream of porous borders and infinite entitlements.

[DMC]

Higher taxes


Bernie likes to point out the Scandinavian model -- places like Sweden have super high tax rates.

There's always something off bubble just a bit with these folks. If you boil it down what you find is that they want the system tailored to suit them personally, in the current situation they are in. There's nothing wrong with that, hell that's what I want too, but they pretend it's about community. This is why they don't want to shore up the borders and population control prior to opening the free for all doors.

[spurraider21]

So it's not about healthcare for all.
its entirely about healthcare


It's about more money for SR21 during this phase in the planned dynasty
muh emotional narratives

its about having a smarter system that reduces cost as a whole. why are we paying twice per capita compared to other developed countries for the same health care? its a moronic system that also leaves millions uncovered or underinsured with deductibles that prevent them from seeking needed care


At my phase in my own dynasty, it would be less money in my pocket, so no thanks.
how do you know. you've run the numbers?

and i have no problem with our laws and taxes in place being designed to benefit the masses. people who are very well off and have loads of disposable income shouldnt be the ones the system is designed to help or benefit. thats a position that i'd be glad to be in... being so successful that i can enjoy a comfortable standard of living even if i'm paying a higher share of taxes than others

:lol such a scary thought... "one day you might make so much money that your taxes will go up"


Again, I am not interested in donating money to the "Save the world" pipe dream of porous borders and infinite entitlements.
det strawman again

[spurraider21]

of course, after all the discourse about the actual policies, you try to make it about me personally

[DMC]

of course, after all the discourse about the actual policies, you try to make it about me personally

Your stance is about your personal situation. My stance is about mine. Pretending otherwise is silly.

[DMC]

its entirely about healthcare


muh emotional narratives

its about having a smarter system that reduces cost as a whole. why are we paying twice per capita compared to other developed countries for the same health care? its a moronic system that also leaves millions uncovered or underinsured with deductibles that prevent them from seeking needed care


how do you know. you've run the numbers?

and i have no problem with our laws and taxes in place being designed to benefit the masses. people who are very well off and have loads of disposable income shouldnt be the ones the system is designed to help or benefit. thats a position that i'd be glad to be in... being so successful that i can enjoy a comfortable standard of living even if i'm paying a higher share of taxes than others

:lol such a scary thought... "one day you might make so much money that your taxes will go up"


det strawman again

When you get into a situation where you would be more of a giver than a receiver (no homo) we can revisit, if you still think ST is good enough for you.

[spurraider21]

Your stance is about your personal situation. My stance is about mine. Pretending otherwise is silly.
no, but you can tell yourself that if it helps you sleep at night

[DarrinS]

and i have no problem with our laws and taxes in place being designed to benefit the masses. people who are very well off and have loads of disposable income shouldnt be the ones the system is designed to help or benefit. thats a position that i'd be glad to be in... being so successful that i can enjoy a comfortable standard of living even if i'm paying a higher share of taxes than others


Would you be cool with 70% marginal over 100K?

[spurraider21]

When you get into a situation where you would be more of a giver than a receiver (no homo) we can revisit, if you still think ST is good enough for you.
:lol again with the emotional narratives. it's all you've got.

discussion about national policy becomes one only about me

[spurraider21]

Would you be cool with 70% marginal over 100K?
nah. i dont know anybody who would be. im not for tax hikes just for the sake of tax hikes. what's the purpose behind it? where is the funding supposed to go?

why do you have to go to such an extreme? i mean AOC is the radical socialist and she spitballed about having 70% marginal over 10 mil. you are dropping that to 100k, an amount smaller by a factor of 100 :lol

[DMC]

:lol again with the emotional narratives. it's all you've got.

discussion about national policy becomes one only about me

It was a joke.

:pop: Get over yourself

[DarrinS]

nah. i dont know anybody who would be. im not for tax hikes just for the sake of tax hikes. what's the purpose behind it? where is the funding supposed to go?

why do you have to go to such an extreme? i mean AOC is the radical socialist and she spitballed about having 70% marginal over 10 mil. you are dropping that to 100k, an amount smaller by a factor of 100 :lol



That's what Sweden does to pay for all their "free" stuff.

Because there aren't enough millionaires and billionaires.

At least Bernie was honest enough to admit taxes would go up on middle class. Warren evades that question.

[spurraider21]

That's what Sweden does to pay for all their "free" stuff.

Because there aren't enough millionaires and billionaires.
good for sweden.

but look at what that provides, its not just healthcare.

elderly care/retirement homes, child support for children up to 16, 480 days of paid parental leave, free daycare for kids under 7, greater disability benefits than we have here, no tuition for colleges or even grad schools.

my wife was born in sweden and moved to the states during her childhood. soon after was diagnosed with hodgkins, and sweden paid for all her care/treatment here in the states. dont even want to know how much it would have cost her fam out of pocket


At least Bernie was honest enough to admit taxes would go up on middle class. Warren evades that question.
a) yeah, i mentioned this a few different times as a criticism of warren

b) but ultimately warren released her funding plan which basically was a much more aggressive tax on the wealthy and employers and didnt actually raise taxes on the middle class, but tbh i dont think its as realistic a plan

[DMC]

good for sweden.

but look at what that provides, its not just healthcare.

elderly care/retirement homes, child support for children up to 16, 480 days of paid parental leave, free daycare for kids under 7, greater disability benefits than we have here, no tuition for colleges or even grad schools.

my wife was born in sweden and moved to the states during her childhood. soon after was diagnosed with hodgkins, and sweden paid for all her care/treatment here in the states. dont even want to know how much it would have cost her fam out of pocket


a) yeah, i mentioned this a few different times as a criticism of warren

b) but ultimately warren released her funding plan which basically was a much more aggressive tax on the wealthy and employers and didnt actually raise taxes on the middle class, but tbh i dont think its as realistic a plan

Do you have to be born in Sweden to get those benefits?

[DarrinS]

I finally got some tax relief, starting this year. I don't think many people my age are eager to see that reversed. But, I can understand why Bernie appeals to very young voters. What he's advocating would only affect them positively.

[spurraider21]

Do you have to be born in Sweden to get those benefits?
nah, just gotta be a citizen. her parents were born in iran, moved to sweden and became citizens there.

[spurraider21]

I finally got some tax relief, starting this year. I don't think many people my age are eager to see that reversed. But, I can understand why Bernie appeals to very young voters. What he's advocating would only affect them positively.
not just young people. what about middle aged people who dont have high income, have kids in school, struggle to pay for health insurance, etc.

[DMC]

nah, just gotta be a citizen. her parents were born in iran, moved to sweden and became citizens there.

So to get benefits in Sweden you must have citizenship?

[DMC]

not just young people. what about middle aged people who dont have high income, have kids in school, struggle to pay for health insurance, etc.

Stop having kids.

[spurraider21]

So to get benefits in Sweden you must have citizenship?
i think so. not entirely familiar with their system.

[spurraider21]

Stop having kids.
they already had them

[DMC]

they already had them

It's a personal choice to have kids. Personal choices can cause you to have either a better lifestyle or worse lifestyle. Other people who made more early sacrifices to have a better lifestyle later should not be punished to level up those who just ignored the debt to income ratio problems associated with having children.

[spurraider21]

It's a personal choice to have kids. Personal choices can cause you to have either a better lifestyle or worse lifestyle. Other people who made more early sacrifices to have a better lifestyle later should not be punished to level up those who just ignored the debt to income ratio problems associated with having children.
if you had a kid 20 years ago, you might have had a different expectation of what child care, health care, and college costs would be than what we currently see

regardless of what you think the parents should have done, darrin's point was about who bernie appeals to... not if those people have made perfect decisions in hindsight

[DMC]

if you had a kid 20 years ago, you might have had a different expectation of what child care, health care, and college costs would be than what we currently see

You're describing a rare problem, no doubt - we saved for college but didn't factor in the increase in costs. Mostly they didn't save for shit and the kid will either join the military or struggle through the 20's and, if fortunate, smart or lucky, land a decent gig somewhere along the way so they have a stable career and can better plan for their own children's futures.



regardless of what you think the parents should have done, darrin's point was about who bernie appeals to... not if those people have made perfect decisions in hindsight
Doesn't need to be perfect decisions - sometimes having the child is the perfect decision even if it means you struggle early on, and the last thing I'd do is tell them what they can or cannot do with their own bodies, but I am not going to pay for it.

[spurraider21]

You're describing a rare problem, no doubt - we saved for college but didn't factor in the increase in costs. Mostly they didn't save for shit and the kid will either join the military or struggle through the 20's and, if fortunate, smart or lucky, land a decent gig somewhere along the way so they have a stable career and can better plan for their own children's futures.

Doesn't need to be perfect decisions - sometimes having the child is the perfect decision even if it means you struggle early on, and the last thing I'd do is tell them what they can or cannot do with their own bodies, but I am not going to pay for it.
like i showed earlier in the discussion about college tuition, years ago the student could pay it off themselves with a frickin summer job, so "saving up for college" wasn't necessarily a thing, and not something that every parent thought about before boning. not to mention, college degrees have become a lot more common than before, and are becoming more and more of a barrier to entry in professional fields. somebody born 50 years ago who had kids 20-25 years ago would have had a very different perspective than they do now in hindsight, nothwithstanding the cost increase

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d1/Educational_Attainment_in_the_United_States_2009.p ng

[DMC]

I went to college in the early 90's and it was expensive then, no summer job was going to pay for it, even with the GI bill. If you have a 20 year old kid, that kid was born in 2000. College was not summer job cheap then. Even in the early 80's the Army was touting the GI bill to get people to enroll. I didn't go to college for fun. Even after I left the military with the best military training in my career field, I saw degrees as being almost a requirement if you didn't want to be entry level for 5 years and some jobs like engineering you likely couldn't crack at all by then without a degree.

So knowing what we know now, how many people are actually saving up for their kid's college vs just boning and spitting out fuck trophies?

[Winehole23]

Children= fuck trophies

That's the future, you dumb fuck.

[DMC]

Children= fuck trophies

That's the future, you dumb fuck.

Teach them well and let them lead the way.

[DarrinS]

:lol


1220565382706159618

[AaronY]

Did people really believe Obama would do this :lol

1220416753811034116

[DarrinS]

Did people really believe Obama would do this :lol

1220416753811034116


Seriously doubt it

[AaronY]

Seriously doubt it
Bernie world has a little of the same conspiracy mindset as Trump voters tbh. The main Bernie Sanders subbreddit just banned CNN for being "fake news" (srs) but then pushed a poll from CNN to the front page because it showed Bernie doing well. It's fake news until it's something good :lol

then they complained about CNN's wording the whole thread because it wasn't complimentary enough

[TheGreatYacht]

CNN = Clinton News Network

[DMC]

Bernie world has a little of the same conspiracy mindset as Trump voters tbh. The main Bernie Sanders subbreddit just banned CNN for being "fake news" (srs) but then pushed a poll from CNN to the front page because it showed Bernie doing well. It's fake news until it's something good :lol

then they complained about CNN's wording the whole thread because it wasn't complimentary enough

Kobestans

[DMC]

CNN = Clinton News Network

Thanks, that's the first time I ever heard that.

[DarrinS]

Bernie world has a little of the same conspiracy mindset as Trump voters tbh. The main Bernie Sanders subbreddit just banned CNN for being "fake news" (srs) but then pushed a poll from CNN to the front page because it showed Bernie doing well. It's fake news until it's something good :lol

then they complained about CNN's wording the whole thread because it wasn't complimentary enough


CNN is pretty terrible, tbh

[Winehole23]

With a grain of salt, because polling and months to go until the election. This blog argues that Sanders may outperform Biden in the Electoral College in battleground states even though he trails in national polls:



While Biden leads in several states, these are either states that Sanders wins too (Michigan, Nevada) or states where both nevertheless lose (Georgia, Iowa). Sanders, meanwhile, overperforms where it counts: in states with smaller margins like Florida and New Hampshire.https://www.carlbeijer.com/2020/01/sanders-currently-best-bet-in.html?m=1

[AaronY]

CNN is pretty terrible, tbh
I don't watch CNN but some of it is that the average cable news viewer is like 65 and that is Bernie's weakest group by far so the audience probably dislikes him more hence there is more of an audience for negative coverage. Same thing with the "Bernie blackout" on cable news or whatever as he polls at 8% among 65+ so less interest in him than in Biden who polls at 40% with the olds

Same reason a progressive site that targets young people is not going to run pro-Joe Biden pieces but instead shits on him every day as it's what their audience wants. They're not clicking on a Joe Biden human interest stories.

People bag on Fox News for having Trump's dick in their mouth but if Fox put on anti-Trump show in the Hannity slot their ratings would plummet down to zero. I guess my point some of the "conspiracies" are just what that particular audience wants ratings wise

[DMC]

I don't watch CNN but some of it is that the average cable news viewer is like 65 and that is Bernie's weakest group by far so the audience probably dislikes him more hence there is more of an audience for negative coverage. Same thing with the "Bernie blackout" on cable news or whatever as he polls at 8% among 65+ so less interest in him than in Biden who polls at 40% with the olds

Same reason a progressive site that targets young people is not going to run pro-Joe Biden pieces but instead shits on him every day as it's what their audience wants. They're not clicking on a Joe Biden human interest stories.

People bag on Fox News for having Trump's dick in their mouth but if Fox put on anti-Trump show in the Hannity slot their ratings would plummet down to zero. I guess my point some of the "conspiracies" are just what that particular audience wants ratings wise

It's interesting - the candidates are mostly 65+ including Bernie, but people of that age group don't like Bernie. That's because he's a pie in the sky socialist and they know he's full of shit.

[AaronY]

It's interesting - the candidates are mostly 65+ including Bernie, but people of that age group don't like Bernie. That's because he's a pie in the sky socialist and they know he's full of shit.
This is a fascinating page it has some basic breakdowns: https://projects.economist.com/democratic-primaries-2020/

and If you click on the candidates faces it breaks down more stuff in detail

[TheGreatYacht]

It's interesting - the candidates are mostly 65+ including Bernie, but people of that age group don't like Bernie. That's because he's a pie in the sky socialist and they know he's full of shit.

No dude, it's cuz people of that age are brainwashed by years of watching TV.

WarnerMedia CEO John Stankey gave $2,000 to both Tennessee Republican Senate candidate Marsha Blackburn and the National Republican Congressional Committee. He is a Zionist Jew.

Low IQ babyboomers think they are watching a leftist news network :lol

[spurraider21]

No dude, it's cuz people of that age are brainwashed by years of watching TV.

WarnerMedia CEO John Stankey gave $2,000 to both Tennessee Republican Senate candidate Marsha Blackburn and the National Republican Congressional Committee. He is a Zionist Jew.

Low IQ babyboomers think they are watching a leftist news network :lol
Link?

[DMC]

It's about time the DNC funnels all money to Biden and throws Bernie under the bus.

[TheGreatYacht]

Link?


https://youtu.be/eLejq2Iuzro

[spurraider21]

https://youtu.be/eLejq2Iuzro
Proof that it came straight from Stankey?

[TheGreatYacht]

https://zogwatch.blogspot.com/p/who-controls-media-conglomeration.html?m=1

Also check out "Rupert Murdoch’s Deeply Hidden Jewish Roots — A Biography"

https://www.veteranstodayarchives.com/2011/07/16/murdochs-deeply-hidden-jewish-roots-a-biography/

[DMC]

Stankey donates to a PAC.

[spurraider21]

https://zogwatch.blogspot.com/p/who-controls-media-conglomeration.html?m=1

Also check out "Rupert Murdoch’s Deeply Hidden Jewish Roots — A Biography"

https://www.veteranstodayarchives.com/2011/07/16/murdochs-deeply-hidden-jewish-roots-a-biography/
thanks for a random website that refers to him as a jew. your claim was zionist jew. and that he played a direct role in that dude getting fired.

and then an unrelated article that doesnt mention stankey a single time? :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

thanks for a random website that refers to him as a jew. your claim was zionist jew. and that he played a direct role in that dude getting fired.

and then an unrelated article that doesnt mention stankey a single time? :lol

Stankey is Jewish. His organization fired a journalist for speaking out against Israel. What more proof do you want? Connect the dots.

[spurraider21]

Stankey is Jewish. His organization fired a journalist for speaking out against Israel. What more proof do you want? Connect the dots.
do you think CEOs get involved in those day to day decisions?

[TheGreatYacht]

:lol


1220565382706159618https://mobile.twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/status/1220678190764642304
She put that faggot in his place :lol

[Extra Stout]

I can see how Bernie Sanders might win the nomination, but I can’t see how Sanders ends up as much more than a McGovern redux.

Black people aren’t talking about Bernie Sanders. Or Elizabeth Warren. Or the mayor of South Bend. They’re talking about Joe Biden and Michael Bloomberg.

I get so fucking tired of gentry white liberals and their fake “woke” compassion. They don’t have any intention of considering what minorities think or minorities want. Being the self-appointed vanguards of social justice is just a means to power and an excuse for the creative-class’s neoliberal dispossession of the white working class.

That’s why so much of the discussion revolves around these dead-end boutique candidates that are non-starters outside the progressive bubbles and faculty lounges.

[TheGreatYacht]

I can see how Bernie Sanders might win the nomination, but I can’t see how Sanders ends up as much more than a McGovern redux.

Black people aren’t talking about Bernie Sanders. Or Elizabeth Warren. Or the mayor of South Bend. They’re talking about Joe Biden and Michael Bloomberg.

I get so fucking tired of gentry white liberals and their fake “woke” compassion. They don’t have any intention of considering what minorities think or minorities want. Being the self-appointed vanguards of social justice is just a means to power and an excuse for the creative-class’s neoliberal dispossession of the white working class.

That’s why so much of the discussion revolves around these dead-end boutique candidates that are non-starters outside the progressive bubbles and faculty lounges.

Low IQ boomers don't know any better. They brainwashed by fake news tbh...

https://mobile.twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1220445820505546755
BOOM

[koriwhat]

I can see how Bernie Sanders might win the nomination, but I can’t see how Sanders ends up as much more than a McGovern redux.

Black people aren’t talking about Bernie Sanders. Or Elizabeth Warren. Or the mayor of South Bend. They’re talking about Joe Biden and Michael Bloomberg.

I get so fucking tired of gentry white liberals and their fake “woke” compassion. They don’t have any intention of considering what minorities think or minorities want. Being the self-appointed vanguards of social justice is just a means to power and an excuse for the creative-class’s neoliberal dispossession of the white working class.

That’s why so much of the discussion revolves around these dead-end boutique candidates that are non-starters outside the progressive bubbles and faculty lounges.

:tu

[TheGreatYacht]

Panel reacts to SJW freakout of Rogan Bernie support

https://youtu.be/fZwTEbDEQF4

[Millennial_Messiah]

I went to college in the early 90's and it was expensive then, no summer job was going to pay for it, even with the GI bill. If you have a 20 year old kid, that kid was born in 2000. College was not summer job cheap then. Even in the early 80's the Army was touting the GI bill to get people to enroll. I didn't go to college for fun. Even after I left the military with the best military training in my career field, I saw degrees as being almost a requirement if you didn't want to be entry level for 5 years and some jobs like engineering you likely couldn't crack at all by then without a degree.

So knowing what we know now, how many people are actually saving up for their kid's college vs just boning and spitting out fuck trophies?
Definitely not the average fat beaner couple of SA

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1221133756607750144?s=19

reminds me of Pelosi: "you have to sign the bill to find out what's inside"

[DMC]

https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1221133756607750144?s=19

reminds me of Pelosi: "you have to sign the bill to find out what's inside"

The problem isn't "how much is this going to cost" but since Bernie has no idea, he would never get anything through congress. We can all offer up flighty ideas about how to fix things. The fact that Bernie made a career doing this shit is amazing.

[boutons_deux]

Bernie up 7 pts in IA

[TheGreatYacht]

CNN + MSNBC + CBS good now :lol

What happened to the outrage by conservatives when Bernie got screwed by the DNC in 2016? Fake outrage :lol

DNC good now :lol

[Reck]

Panel reacts to SJW freakout of Rogan Bernie support

https://youtu.be/fZwTEbDEQF4

The SJWs are all Bernie supporters. lol

[koriwhat]

too bad that heart attack didn't take out that fucking commie.

[TheGreatYacht]

too bad that heart attack didn't take out that fucking commie.

That's why he needs to pick Tulsi Gabbard as his VP :tu

[koriwhat]

That's why he needs to pick Tulsi Gabbard as his VP :tu

i'd still rather see him and all other commie's sick feet under. fuck bernie and fuck tulsi if she signs on with him at any stage of his campaign.

[spurraider21]

https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1221133756607750144?s=19
why'd they cut it off right there?


reminds me of Pelosi: "you have to sign the bill to find out what's inside"
oh that meme again?


“In the fall of the year,” Pelosi said, “the outside groups … were saying ‘it’s about abortion,’ which it never was. ‘It’s about ‘death panels,’’ which it never was. ‘It’s about a job-killer,’ which it creates four million [jobs]. ‘It’s about increasing the deficit’; well, the main reason to pass it was to decrease the deficit.” Her contention was that the Senate “didn’t have a bill.” And until the Senate produced an actual piece of legislation that could be matched up and debated against what was passed by the House, no one truly knew what would be voted on.

“So, that’s why I was saying we have to pass a bill, so we can see, so that we can show you, what it is and what it isn’t,” Pelosi continued. “It is none of these things. It’s not going to be any of these things.”

[Chris]

The problem isn't "how much is this going to cost" but since Bernie has no idea, he would never get anything through congress. We can all offer up flighty ideas about how to fix things. The fact that Bernie made a career doing this shit is amazing.

Not really when you see your average Bernie supporter confronted on the street. They have no idea what Bernie's policies entail, they just think they are fighting for the common man.

[Chris]

why'd they cut it off right there?

deep state edits, It's a conspiracy against Bernie



oh that meme again?

What meme?

[Reck]

Not really when you see your average Bernie supporter confronted on the street. They have no idea what Bernie's policies entail, they just think they are fighting for the common man.

Bots and irony.

https://www.cloudflare.com/resources/images/slt3lc6tev37/79wsjD0Xy7FmmYvR0sCncy/5b732b7e26adb7d6c06d943d14dc4acd/not-a-robot.png

[koriwhat]

Bots and irony.

https://www.cloudflare.com/resources/images/slt3lc6tev37/79wsjD0Xy7FmmYvR0sCncy/5b732b7e26adb7d6c06d943d14dc4acd/not-a-robot.png

lol being so dumb you think captchas block bots... you're such a dumb fucking tranny.

[DMC]

Not really when you see your average Bernie supporter confronted on the street. They have no idea what Bernie's policies entail, they just think they are fighting for the common man.

Except these clowns weren't even born when Bernie got started.

[spurraider21]

What meme?
the meme i responded to, and provided an explanation to in that very post

[TheGreatYacht]

Tucker Carlson: Don't Be So Sure Trump Beats Bernie

https://youtu.be/HUPxww9I2jg

[TheGreatYacht]

Lev Parnas' Full Video of Trump Telling Associates To "Get Rid Of" Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch

https://youtu.be/789CORXvvRA

I haven't been paying attention to the impeachment crap. It's boring and I don't give a fuck about it. But this video popped up on my YouTube feed. If anyone already posted this video then my apologies. Ignore this comment.

Trump @ 54:40 "If Bernie would have been VP it would have been tougher...I got 20% of Bernie vote because of trade. He's a big trade guy. You know he basically says we’re getting screwed on trade. And he’s right. Had she [Hillary] picked Bernie Sanders it would have been tougher. He is the only one I didn't want her to pick."

:wow

I fucking KNEW IT. I've been saying this the whole time. Bernie 2020 :worthy:

[TheGreatYacht]

https://mobile.twitter.com/HancTom/status/1221293867879682048
DMC :lol

The cat is out of the bag. This is why you wanted Biden too eh? I called it.

[ElNono]

Yeah the Texas state government took 20 fucking years to complete the project on IH-35 but the private sector builds a toll road from Georgetown to San Antonio in about 3 years.

Just because some basic services are provided by the State and federal government using taxpayer money doesn't mean other services should be.

I understand some aspects when it's a problem of ours but if it's a problem of mine that seems to be something I should be responsible for. FEMA doesn't get involved if my house floods only if everyone's house floods.

But it is 'our' problem. Insurance companies and/or service providers might want to make it about the individual, but we can't escape the fact that we spend way, way more as a nation on healthcare than any other nation. That's us, combined.

We already have the cozy arrangement where the private sector not only won't touch the high risk population (elderly) but will directly dump it onto the government.

In cases like medicines, we are subsidizing other nations by paying exorbitant amounts of R&D and clinical testing. Pharma can't sell those drugs at inflated prices anywhere else, and cannot prevent supplying those nations (unless they want to see generics made with government sanction).

And, about government involvement/delivery, we already have it doing a lot of that through Medicare, VA, Medicaid. And honestly, plenty of countries have mixed systems where the government does things like price control for medicines, certain services, and there's both public services and enhanced private services to choose from. If you can afford the latter, that's great, but if you can't, at least you have something to fall back to. The US has something similar with Medicaid, but you really need to be poor as hell to qualify, you have to apply for it, you have to be granted the benefit, etc.

At some point, service and goods providers will have to take a hit, because this just isn't sustainable in the long term. Medicines that cost $300-$500/month here, you can cross the border up or down, and buy for $40, same damn drug. That gravy train is just going to have to come to an end at some point.

[ElNono]

By the way I'm still waiting for someone to name one of the Departments of the federal government that's efficient and effective.

Why do people keep ignoring the difficult questions and only go for the low-hanging fruit?

I didn't know you asked. The IRS is probably both, considering they end up ensuring much more money comes in than what they cost, the DOD is probably fairly effective, considering the whole superpower thingie. The DOJ is certainly effective, and I don't particularly remember large inefficiencies there.

Just off the top of my head.

[ElNono]

Are undocumented immigrants entitled to medicare or medicaid?

With porous borders there's no way to control the user base of a program that has a very finite amount of payers. Taxing the working citizens of the US isn't going to relieve world poverty. It will just make us all poor.

This would be under the presumption that undocumented immigrants don't pay taxes, which isn't necessarily the case.

[ElNono]

Did people really believe Obama would do this :lol

1220416753811034116

Obama will wait in the shadows until a candidate is picked, then go campaign for/with him/her

[ElNono]

I can see how Bernie Sanders might win the nomination, but I can’t see how Sanders ends up as much more than a McGovern redux.

Black people aren’t talking about Bernie Sanders. Or Elizabeth Warren. Or the mayor of South Bend. They’re talking about Joe Biden and Michael Bloomberg.

I get so fucking tired of gentry white liberals and their fake “woke” compassion. They don’t have any intention of considering what minorities think or minorities want. Being the self-appointed vanguards of social justice is just a means to power and an excuse for the creative-class’s neoliberal dispossession of the white working class.

That’s why so much of the discussion revolves around these dead-end boutique candidates that are non-starters outside the progressive bubbles and faculty lounges.

It's a field with variety, but pretty damn terrible. The only guy I can think of that's somewhat inspirational is Bernie, even if I'm personally not a fan. It's the only guy from that crowd I would bet some money that will stick to his convictions, even if he can't pass one law as POTUS.

But he could also end up like a Ron Paul, basically a loser outcast with a rabid following.

[ElNono]

Not really when you see your average Bernie supporter confronted on the street. They have no idea what Bernie's policies entail, they just think they are fighting for the common man.

Sounds like your average Trump fan too, tbh

[boutons_deux]

"average Bernie supporter confronted on the street. They have no idea what Bernie's policies entail"

Chris working from his own confrontations of Bernie supporters on the street.

[Chris]

Sounds like your average Trump fan too, tbh

Sorry George, but most Trump fans know exactly what Trump's policies are because he doesn't beat around the bush or sugar coat his agenda. This is obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense. Maybe try watching a rally sometime, and turning off Rachel Maddow. If you can't, at least put some effort in to your whataboutery.

[TheGreatYacht]

Sorry George, but most Trump fans know exactly what Trump's policies are because he doesn't beat around the bush or sugar coat his agenda. This is obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense. Maybe try watching a rally sometime, and turning off Rachel Maddow. If you can't, at least put some effort in to your whataboutery.
Yousef, (man responsible for Steven Crowder's night terrors) Interviewed by Nick Fuentes

https://youtu.be/dD6asa5x508

:lol

[DMC]

But it is 'our' problem. Insurance companies and/or service providers might want to make it about the individual, but we can't escape the fact that we spend way, way more as a nation on healthcare than any other nation. That's us, combined.

Sure, if you combine the data and look at it as a collective then it appears to be a problem of ours, but so would anything else. National disasters that affect a lot of people have one basic cause, and they are a problem of ours. Health related issues are caused by a large variety of things, some under the direct control of the patient (lifestyle related issues, self harm, etc..) and some not (genetic disorders, accidents, etc..). I don't consider these to be my problems. Sure collectively they put a strain on society, but that strain can be relieved without creating a free HC system. In fact, the single payer system would make it worse imo.


We already have the cozy arrangement where the private sector not only won't touch the high risk population (elderly) but will directly dump it onto the government.

You mean onto the taxpayer. You're proposing that all medical costs be dumped onto the taxpayer. How does that make it better?


In cases like medicines, we are subsidizing other nations by paying exorbitant amounts of R&D and clinical testing. Pharma can't sell those drugs at inflated prices anywhere else, and cannot prevent supplying those nations (unless they want to see generics made with government sanction).

Same with technology.


And, about government involvement/delivery, we already have it doing a lot of that through Medicare, VA, Medicaid. And honestly, plenty of countries have mixed systems where the government does things like price control for medicines, certain services, and there's both public services and enhanced private services to choose from. If you can afford the latter, that's great, but if you can't, at least you have something to fall back to. The US has something similar with Medicaid, but you really need to be poor as hell to qualify, you have to apply for it, you have to be granted the benefit, etc.

All the stuff you're mentioning would be worse if the taxpayer was forced to pay more. More free shit for some doesn't work well for the group paying for it. I don't know why people keep pretending it would benefit me as a taxpayer. My HC coverage now is just fine. I don't have long wait times for specialist care, surgical needs, MRIs or CAT scans. My co-pay is manageable. My deductible is manageable. I could imagine if I was someone on dialysis or had cancer treatments where the chemo is a prescription medication that costs exorbitant amounts, I might be on the other side of that but that's not where I am. Right now I would be the loser in the equation. Like others here and elsewhere, my outlook is based mostly on how it would affect me. This is why I say it's not a problem of ours.

People have a right to move to other countries if the HC system is to their liking more than here in the US. Of course they can use the democratic process to try to change what the US offers, but cherry picking only desirable aspects of other countries without considering what they give up or require to have that system is too convenient to be useful.


At some point, service and goods providers will have to take a hit, because this just isn't sustainable in the long term. Medicines that cost $300-$500/month here, you can cross the border up or down, and buy for $40, same damn drug. That gravy train is just going to have to come to an end at some point.
The market will have to adjust when that happens.

I don't pay 500 for any medication. The most I ever pay is about 20 dollars. This doesn't include my insurance payments. In my case, the ends don't justify the means.

[TheGreatYacht]

Sorry George, but most Trump fans know exactly what Trump's policies are because he doesn't beat around the bush or sugar coat his agenda. This is obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense. Maybe try watching a rally sometime, and turning off Rachel Maddow. If you can't, at least put some effort in to your whataboutery.
Steven Crowder gets BTFO'd by college student (Bernie Bro)

https://youtu.be/t-puqQYlbFM

:lmao

[DMC]

This would be under the presumption that undocumented immigrants don't pay taxes, which isn't necessarily the case.

But you simply don't know because they are undocumented.

[spurraider21]

You mean onto the taxpayer. You're proposing that all medical costs be dumped onto the taxpayer. How does that make it better?
current version of medicare is still working despite only covering the most vulnerable/expensive people. the concept of insurance is having a broad enough risk pool. if only sick people had insurance, premiums would be much higher (or the industry would just collapse). by broadening the risk pool for the government plan, it would only make it more financially efficient.

and yes, it would still require more taxpayer funding, but those taxpayers are largely already paying for health insurance (which pays for other peoples' treatment). you would think of the government care as just one very large insurance company... you still pay premiums (via taxes) and obviously its the sick who are going to reap the benefits while the healthy are paying into the system. thats even the situation you find yourself in now... paying premiums despite admittedly not needing regular benefits.

the advantage of the "single national insurance company" is the elimination of the profit margin that private insurance companies need to survive, while cutting overhead/administrative costs. the government program would obviously still have such costs, but studies support that theirs would be lowers than we see in the private sector.

[DMC]

current version of medicare is still working despite only covering the most vulnerable/expensive people. the concept of insurance is having a broad enough risk pool. if only sick people had insurance, premiums would be much higher (or the industry would just collapse). by broadening the risk pool for the government plan, it would only make it more financially efficient.

and yes, it would still require more taxpayer funding, but those taxpayers are largely already paying for health insurance (which pays for other peoples' treatment). you would think of the government care as just one very large insurance company... you still pay premiums (via taxes) and obviously its the sick who are going to reap the benefits while the healthy are paying into the system. thats even the situation you find yourself in now... paying premiums despite admittedly not needing regular benefits.

the advantage of the "single national insurance company" is the elimination of the profit margin that private insurance companies need to survive, while cutting overhead/administrative costs. the government program would obviously still have such costs, but studies support that theirs would be lowers than we see in the private sector.

Sorry, lack of competition doesn't equate to a favorable outcome for customers. I don't give fuck all about their profit margin. I care about mine. Is there some moral victory to be had here by denying a private business a profit margin and instead spreading out all the costs to the taxpayers? The end result is more money out of my pocket for the same or worse medical care.

People in their "earning years" who aren't minimum wage earners would likely pay more overall for this program than they pay for HC right now.

The last thing I want from my government is them having even more control over my personal choices.

That may be best for the collective. I don't live as a collective nor vote as one.

[spurraider21]

Sorry, lack of competition doesn't equate to a favorable outcome for customers.
the competition for services is still live among different doctors, surgeons, etc. and if all of them are now "in network" it would actually fuel competition among them, tbh


People in their "earning years" who aren't minimum wage earners would likely pay more overall for this program than they pay for HC right now.
where are you getting this from?


The last thing I want from my government is them having even more control over my personal choices.
i can buy this. but how exactly is that going to manifest. in a single payer system, the government plan is the only game in town. are some doctors going to forego all that and just hold out for cash business?


That may be best for the collective. I don't live as a collective nor vote as one.
of course you dont live as a collective. but thats the nature of government, taxes, etc. you cant tell the government that YOUR taxes should only benefit YOU. why are your tax funds being spent on fire department stations 11 miles from your home that is never going to be in your service?

[DMC]

the competition for services is still live among different doctors, surgeons, etc. and if all of them are now "in network" it would actually fuel competition among them, tbh


where are you getting this from?


i can buy this. but how exactly is that going to manifest. in a single payer system, the government plan is the only game in town. are some doctors going to forego all that and just hold out for cash business?


of course you dont live as a collective. but thats the nature of government, taxes, etc. you cant tell the government that YOUR taxes should only benefit YOU. why are your tax funds being spent on fire department stations 11 miles from your home that is never going to be in your service?

1. Doctors aren't struggling for patients. The workload would increase dramatically. It wouldn't fuel competition. It would fuel more needless tests that the doc and clinic owners get paid for by the feds i.e. taxpayers. It would lead to more abuse without private insurance monitoring expenditures, and we know the feds can't monitor shit.

2. Since you haven't offered a plan for it (just like Bernie) we'll have to accept it at face value.

3. I don't trust the government to not abuse the control over HC for political reasons.

4. The nature of government is why I don't want them controlling HC. Pointing out other expenditures that I don't directly benefit from isn't the best way to convince me I'm wrong.

[spurraider21]

1. Doctors aren't struggling for patients. The workload would increase dramatically. It wouldn't fuel competition. It would fuel more needless tests that the doc and clinic owners get paid for by the feds i.e. taxpayers. It would lead to more abuse without private insurance monitoring expenditures, and we know the feds can't monitor shit.
au contraire


As journalists, we are peppered with press releases touting the fraud enforcement successes in Medicare and Medicaid, the government health plans. The federal Department of Justice and state Medicaid Fraud Control Units file thousands of criminal and civil cases a year (and still are accused of not being as aggressive as they could be). Clearly, their goal is to let folks know they will be prosecuted.

But we rarely hear about the fraud enforcement efforts of private health insurers. These companies manage the plans of about 150 million Americans who get their health benefits through their employers. They’re sitting on a massive trove of claims data that can help identify scammers, and problems are routinely flagged by their members. And experts, including investigators who once worked for the insurers, tell me there’s rampant fraud against the private plans.

The bottom line is significant: If a con artist, or a corrupt medical professional, makes off with health care dollars, those losses are not necessarily the insurers’. They will be passed on to people covered by the plans in the form of higher monthly premiums and out-of-pocket costs as well as reduced benefits.

https://www.propublica.org/article/we-asked-prosecutors-if-health-insurance-companies-care-about-fraud-they-laughed-at-us


2. Since you haven't offered a plan for it (just like Bernie) we'll have to accept it at face value.
:lol


3. I don't trust the government to not abuse the control over HC for political reasons.
have we seen that manifest in medicare/medicaid?


4. The nature of government is why I don't want them controlling HC. Pointing out other expenditures that I don't directly benefit from isn't the best way to convince me I'm wrong.
its the reality of how many of your amenities are provided. you didnt personally pay for the roads/highways/police/fire dept that benefit you

[spurraider21]

2. Since you haven't offered a plan for it (just like Bernie) we'll have to accept it at face value.

As the wealthiest country in the world, we have a variety of options available to support aMedicare for All, single-payer health care system that guarantees high quality, affordable healthcare as a right, not a privilege, to every man, woman, and child in this country.

Those options include, but are not limited to:

• Creating a 4 percent income-based premium paid by employees, exempting the first$29,000 in income for a family of four;
• Imposing a 7.5 percent income-based premium paid by employers, exempting the first $2million in payroll to protect small businesses;
• Eliminating health tax expenditures;$21.0 trillion$26.0 trillionHow $47 Trillion in National HealthExpenditures is Paid ForPrivateGovernment4
• Making the federal income tax more progressive, including a marginal tax rate of up to70 percent on those making above $10 million, taxing earned and unearned income at thesame rates, and limiting tax deductions for filers in the top tax bracket;
• Making the estate tax more progressive, including a 77 percent top rate on an inheritanceabove $1 billion;
• Establishing a tax on extreme wealth;
• Closing the “Gingrich-Edwards Loophole”;
• Imposing a fee on large financial institutions; and
• Repealing corporate accounting gimmicks.

These are just some of the policies that could provide revenue to finance Medicare for All. Underevery single one of these options the average American family will save thousands of dollars ayear because it will no longer be writing large checks to private health insurance companies.

A study by RAND found that moving to a Medicare-for-all system in New York would save afamily with an income of $185,000 or less about $3,000 a year, on average. Citizens for TaxJustice found that middle class families would see their after-tax income go up by about $3,240 ayear under Medicare for All. Another study found that middle class families would spend about14 percent less of their income on health care than they do today. Even the projections from theMercatus Center suggest that the average American could save about $6,000 under Medicare forall over a 10-year period.

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/medicare-for-all-2019-financing?id=860FD1B9-3E8A-4ADD-8C1F-0DEDC8D45BC1&download=1&inline=file

[DMC]

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/medicare-for-all-2019-financing?id=860FD1B9-3E8A-4ADD-8C1F-0DEDC8D45BC1&download=1&inline=file

Those are ways to raise some revenue. What's the price tag?

:lol losing 770 million dollars from your 1bn estate inheritance.

Gee I wonder why Bernie isn't more successful.

You're not dragging me in to a quote fest.

Nothing you've said really changes anything.

[spurraider21]

Those are ways to raise some revenue. What's the price tag?
there were figures in the quote which you ignored


:lol losing 770 million dollars from your 1bn estate inheritance.
:lol no... 77% is the highest marginal rate only affecting inheritances north of 1 billion. so the first billion you inherit (lol first world problems) would not be subject to that rate. why do people always mess up marginal tax rates?


You're not dragging me in to a quote fest.

Nothing you've said really changes anything.
how convenient

[TheGreatYacht]

https://mobile.twitter.com/0rf/status/1221576585058406400

[DMC]

there were figures in the quote which you ignored


:lol no... 77% is the highest marginal rate only affecting inheritances north of 1 billion. so the first billion you inherit (lol first world problems) would not be subject to that rate. why do people always mess up marginal tax rates?


how convenient

Do you REALLY think billionaires are going to give that away?

Where's Bernie's working plan? I could say "create a cure for cancer" as a plan, that would reduce medical costs significantly. So that's my plan, we are going to cure cancer, but if you act now we'll also take Jeff Bozo's money and give it to the first 100 callers.

[spurraider21]

Do you REALLY think billionaires are going to give that away?

Where's Bernie's working plan? I could say "create a cure for cancer" as a plan, that would reduce medical costs significantly. So that's my plan, we are going to cure cancer, but if you act now we'll also take Jeff Bozo's money and give it to the first 100 callers.
He’s proposing something that’s being done in just about every other major country

you dont have to agree with the policy, but the constant "there's no way this can ever work or be implemented" stuff can be toned down... because we aren't the guinea pigs here.

if you want to say that his bill wont feasibly be passed because of the political environment here in the states, and particularly in the senate, thats a different point entirely

[ElNono]

Sorry George, but most Trump fans know exactly what Trump's policies are because he doesn't beat around the bush or sugar coat his agenda. This is obvious to anyone with a lick of common sense. Maybe try watching a rally sometime, and turning off Rachel Maddow. If you can't, at least put some effort in to your whataboutery.

Don't even know who Maddow is, heard your folks watch it tho... Bernie doesn't sugar coat it or beat around the bush either, we're talking about his ignoramus base, you being a bring example.

Do tell what you thought when Trump said he was going to have the best and cheapest healthcare for everyone, or that he was going to bring back manufacturing to America.

[ElNono]

Sure, if you combine the data and look at it as a collective then it appears to be a problem of ours, but so would anything else. National disasters that affect a lot of people have one basic cause, and they are a problem of ours. Health related issues are caused by a large variety of things, some under the direct control of the patient (lifestyle related issues, self harm, etc..) and some not (genetic disorders, accidents, etc..). I don't consider these to be my problems. Sure collectively they put a strain on society, but that strain can be relieved without creating a free HC system. In fact, the single payer system would make it worse imo.

But it isn't everything else. The few other areas where there's such a high disparity is probably military spending but we do generally get better outcomes there, not so in healthcare. And we're not paying just a bit more, we're paying substantially more for comparative outcomes.


You mean onto the taxpayer. You're proposing that all medical costs be dumped onto the taxpayer. How does that make it better?

It doesn't have to make it better, it has to make it cheaper. Removing a middle-man that's in it for profit is certainly one way to go about it. Handing the largest payer of healthcare the ability to negotiate down prices is another way to go about it. Changing the goal from fiduciary duty to shareholders to what's best for the patient is another way to go about it.


Same with technology.

Not really. Hardware is cheap everywhere. Software patents are largely unenforceable outside of the US. We get cheap technology in the US, not so with healthcare.


All the stuff you're mentioning would be worse if the taxpayer was forced to pay more. More free shit for some doesn't work well for the group paying for it. I don't know why people keep pretending it would benefit me as a taxpayer. My HC coverage now is just fine. I don't have long wait times for specialist care, surgical needs, MRIs or CAT scans. My co-pay is manageable. My deductible is manageable. I could imagine if I was someone on dialysis or had cancer treatments where the chemo is a prescription medication that costs exorbitant amounts, I might be on the other side of that but that's not where I am. Right now I would be the loser in the equation. Like others here and elsewhere, my outlook is based mostly on how it would affect me. This is why I say it's not a problem of ours.

People have a right to move to other countries if the HC system is to their liking more than here in the US. Of course they can use the democratic process to try to change what the US offers, but cherry picking only desirable aspects of other countries without considering what they give up or require to have that system is too convenient to be useful.

I disagree. It's probably going to be relatively worse for people that have excellent care through his/her employment (me, I suspect you too). But I can't ignore it would be substantially better for half or more of Americans.
Now, you can say you only care about you, that's fine. I've been on the other side of the coin, and I don't forget, even if now my situation is completely different.

I haven't cherry picked anything, tbh... you travel a lot too, go to Canada, France, Brazil, get sick, walk into a hospital, get treatment, don't get a bill for it. That's not cherry picking, it's just the reality of it.


The market will have to adjust when that happens.

I don't pay 500 for any medication. The most I ever pay is about 20 dollars. This doesn't include my insurance payments. In my case, the ends don't justify the means.

You're way below the average. The average is $1200 per person per year, which undeniably is the most expensive in the world (link (https://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/drug-prices))

Again, we can look at your situation alone, or look at Americans as a whole. Ultimately, getting old and sick, unless you're Kobe, it's unavoidable, so it's going to catch up with you sooner or later.

[spurraider21]

Ultimately, getting old and sick, unless you're Kobe, it's unavoidable, so it's going to catch up with you sooner or later.
:lmao

[ElNono]

But you simply don't know because they are undocumented.

Actually I do know, albeit I'll agree it's anecdotal, and haven't looked at actual stats. They get an ITIN number, and the main reason is that it helps them whenever they have a chance to obtain a green card if that ever becomes a possibility (ie: marriage). They have to show 3 years worth of taxes as part of the application process.

[TheGreatYacht]

I disagree. It's probably going to be relatively worse for people that have excellent care through his/her employment (me, I suspect you too). But I can't ignore it would be substantially better for half or more of Americans.
Now, you can say you only care about you, that's fine. I've been on the other side of the coin, and I don't forget, even if now my situation is completely different.


That's the biggest problem with conservatives. They have this ME ME ME attitude. If it doesn't affect ME then it don't matter. They lack the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Most conservatives don't care about a situation or a problem unless they are affected directly.

DMC you were in the military right? I bet you have really good insurance as a result of. Who do you have? USAA?

[ElNono]

That's the biggest problem with conservatives. They have this ME ME ME attitude. If it doesn't affect ME then it don't matter. They lack the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes. Most conservatives don't care about a situation or a problem unless they are affected directly.

DMC you were in the military right? I bet you have really good insurance as a result of. Who do you have? USAA?

Honestly, everybody is entitled to their opinion on this. Can't tell them not to look after themselves too, we do it too in different areas.

Ultimately, I think it does come down to whether we want healthcare to be a simple cumulus of transactions or we're looking for an overachieving goal that goes beyond the profit motive. It's a tough question with pros and cons on either side, and I really can't say anybody is wrong from picking one option over the other.

[TheGreatYacht]

Honestly, everybody is entitled to their opinion on this. Can't tell them not to look after themselves too, we do it too in different areas.

Ultimately, I think it does come down to whether we want healthcare to be a simple cumulus of transactions or we're looking for an overachieving goal that goes beyond the profit motive. It's a tough question with pros and cons on either side, and I really can't say anybody is wrong from picking one option over the other.

Agree. Both sides have good arguments. Ultimately, it's about destroying or fixing the root cause of the problem - big pharma and private health insurance companies. Big pharma and private health insurance companies - the ones ripping off Americans - vehemently oppose Medicare 4 All. If that's what it takes to stop them fuckers from price gouging then I'm all for Medicare4All.

[spurraider21]

i dont mind disagreement... its just the lazy objections that bother me

[boutons_deux]

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/82826419_799838873775506_3251710651650801664_o.jpg ?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ohc=QwihMBgqajgAX9crBmD&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=aa86ecd61a40b03b8cd737b9869532c2&oe=5EDA52B0

[AaronY]

Obama will wait in the shadows until a candidate is picked, then go campaign for/with him/her
Yeah. Thats been his obvious plan this whole time. Let the field decide and help the Democratic party's nominee win. Some leftists make everything out like its the Pelican Brief.

[boutons_deux]

"It's a tough question with pros and cons on either side"

if done right, intelligently like other industrial countries have done, the pros of no-profit govt insurance/healthcare FAR outweigh the for-profit wealth-sucking disaster we have now.

America simply can have no-profit healthcare because BigMedicine/BigInsurance and their investors own enough politicians and judges.

[TheGreatYacht]

The Washington Post's Unhinged Bernie Bashing Reveals Establishment Panic

https://youtu.be/RgLS4deRg4w

[Thread]

The Washington Post's Unhinged Bernie Bashing Reveals Establishment Panic

https://youtu.be/RgLS4deRg4w

True, but, primarily (they) know Sanders can't beat Trump.

[TheGreatYacht]

True, but, primarily (they) know Sanders can't beat Trump.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BernForBernie20/status/1221220409833611277
:wow

[Winehole23]

True, but, primarily (they) know Sanders can't beat Trump.Why not?

Sounds like wishcasting. I thought 2016 rekt the conventional wisdom.

Bernie Sanders has been the most popular and most trusted politician in the US for about four years.

[Reck]

Why not?

Sounds like wishcasting. I thought 2016 rekt the conventional wisdom.

Bernie Sanders has been the most popular and most trusted politician in the US for about four years.

Too bad his son couldn’t trust him for some support of his own.