Bernie Sanders

[Spurminator]

:tu


So you think Bernie's publisher is owned and regulated by the community? Do tell, Adam. See if you can muster that without sending up the Avengers SOS beacon :lol

You are equating socialism with the most extreme forms of communism. There is not a single socialist in America who thinks all book publishing should be controlled by the state and that writers are not entitled to earnings.

This is what stupid people do when they can't argue like a moderately intelligent person. Perhaps you have been relating too much to your Avenger squad with koriwhat. :lol

[Spurminator]

:lmao

DMC has sunk so far into the depths of Trumptardation that he's developed a fever dream fantasy that everyone calling him an idiot us the result of a bunch of people coordinating attacks on him. What a sad fucking loser.

[DMC]

You are equating socialism with the most extreme forms of communism. There is not a single socialist in America who thinks all book publishing should be controlled by the state and that writers are not entitled to earnings.

This is what stupid people do when they can't argue like a moderately intelligent person. Perhaps you have been relating too much to your Avenger squad with koriwhat. :lol

Is Bernie using capitalism to profit off of his book sales? Yes or no.

:lol "fever dream fantasy" from a theist.

[TheGreatYacht]

:lol
You don't know what socialism is.

Yup. To these people socialism = communism similar to the way liberals think that anyone who is against open borders is a nazi and racist.

To these people everything is black white. You have to choose one or the other. You cannot have the best of both worlds (Social Democracy).

[DMC]

Pretty sure The Great Faggot doesn't know shit about socialism or communism, too focused on da jooz

[spurraider21]

Socialist relying on capitalism? Ya I have a problem with it.
Except Bernie isn’t seeking to eliminate capitalism

he isn’t trying to have the state take control of all markets

he happens to think healthcare should be among the areas where the state controls the market though, along with police, fire departments, etc

[DMC]

Except Bernie isn’t seeking to eliminate capitalism

he isn’t trying to have the state take control of all markets

he happens to think healthcare should be among the areas where the state controls the market though, along with police, fire departments, etc

Yet he is a socialist. Does he not advocate for a socially owned economy? Does he not self identify as a democratic socialist?

[Spurminator]

Is Bernie using capitalism to profit off of his book sales? Yes or no.

Yes. And it doesn't contradict his socialism. As I explained in the post you ignored completely, which is what I would probably do too if I didn't understand socialism vs. communism.


lol "fever dream fantasy" from a theist.

You are obsessed with me and it's officially creepy now.

[AaronY]

Socialism is the most meaningless term ever now thanks to dem socialists and republicans. All the Scandinivian countries US socialists point to as socialist have their leaders saying over and over and over again that they are not socialist. Meanwhile Republicans call any plan to help workers or raise taxes 2% socialist.

[AaronY]

Anyways lol

1215354427730690050

[spurraider21]

Yet he is a socialist. Does he not advocate for a socially owned economy? Does he not self identify as a democratic socialist?
What do you think this means?

[DMC]

What do you think this means?

You answered none of my questions. Why are you trying to take this in a different direction?

Democratic socialism is a political philosophy that advocates for political democracy alongside a socially owned economy, with a particular emphasis on workers' self-management and democratic control of economic institutions within market socialism, or some form of a decentralised planned socialist economy.

Market socialism is a type of economic system involving the public, cooperative or social ownership of the means of production in the framework of a market economy

A market economy is a system where the laws of supply and demand direct the production of goods and services. Supply includes natural resources, capital, and labor. Demand includes purchases by consumers, businesses, and the government. Businesses sell their wares at the highest price consumers will pay.

These are Wiki descriptions. Do you agree or does Bernie get a customized definition?

Bernie is a millionaire not because of any socially owned means of production. He's a millionaire because a privately owned business that paid him. Instead of focusing on what I said, you instead go right for the "you're not an intellectual like me so you wouldn't know" angle, which is a cop out.

[spurraider21]

You answered none of my questions. Why are you trying to take this in a different direction?

Democratic socialism is a political philosophy that advocates for political democracy alongside a socially owned economy, with a particular emphasis on workers' self-management and democratic control of economic institutions within market socialism, or some form of a decentralised planned socialist economy.

Market socialism is a type of economic system involving the public, cooperative or social ownership of the means of production in the framework of a market economy

These are Wiki descriptions. Do you agree or does Bernie get a customized definition?
If we are sticking to that rigid definition then it’s an inaccurate description of what Sanders stands for.

Now look up Social Democracy on wiki and that’s a much better description of what he advocates for.

However you want to slice it, it’s lazy to just slap on a label and then assume he subscribes to every word of a paragraphs-long definition you found online. better approach is to actually learn the guys positions. He hadn’t called for the state to take over the market and to eliminate private businesses, property, etc. it’s just an absurd strawman

[DMC]

If we are sticking to that rigid definition than it’s an inaccurate description of what Sanders stands for.

Now look up Social Democracy on wiki and that’s a much better description of what he advocates for

The end goal is socialism. What's your point?

[spurraider21]

The end goal is socialism. What's your point?


If we are sticking to that rigid definition then it’s an inaccurate description of what Sanders stands for.

Now look up Social Democracy on wiki and that’s a much better description of what he advocates for.

However you want to slice it, it’s lazy to just slap on a label and then assume he subscribes to every word of a paragraphs-long definition you found online. better approach is to actually learn the guys positions. He hadn’t called for the state to take over the market and to eliminate private businesses, property, etc. it’s just an absurd strawman
I think you’re trolling on purpose tbh

i said it’s a better description and then cautioned against the lazy approach. Naturally you found a single “bad” sentence in a long wiki article and pointed straight to that

why do you insist on beating up strawman positions that sanders doesn’t hold?

[DMC]

So how many Neiman Marxists do we have here?

[DMC]

You answered none of my questions. Why are you trying to take this in a different direction?

Democratic socialism is a political philosophy that advocates for political democracy alongside a socially owned economy, with a particular emphasis on workers' self-management and democratic control of economic institutions within market socialism, or some form of a decentralised planned socialist economy.

Market socialism is a type of economic system involving the public, cooperative or social ownership of the means of production in the framework of a market economy

A market economy is a system where the laws of supply and demand direct the production of goods and services. Supply includes natural resources, capital, and labor. Demand includes purchases by consumers, businesses, and the government. Businesses sell their wares at the highest price consumers will pay.

These are Wiki descriptions. Do you agree or does Bernie get a customized definition?

Bernie is a millionaire not because of any socially owned means of production. He's a millionaire because a privately owned business that paid him. Instead of focusing on what I said, you instead go right for the "you're not an intellectual like me so you wouldn't know" angle, which is a cop out.


If we are sticking to that rigid definition then it’s an inaccurate description of what Sanders stands for.

Now look up Social Democracy on wiki and that’s a much better description of what he advocates for.

However you want to slice it, it’s lazy to just slap on a label and then assume he subscribes to every word of a paragraphs-long definition you found online. better approach is to actually learn the guys positions. He hadn’t called for the state to take over the market and to eliminate private businesses, property, etc. it’s just an absurd strawman


I think you’re trolling on purpose tbh

i said it’s a better description and then cautioned against the lazy approach. Naturally you found a single “bad” sentence in a long wiki article and pointed straight to that

You edited your post.

Single bad sentence? How so?

Social democracy originated as an ideology within the socialist and labour movement, whose goal at different times has been a social revolution to move away from capitalism to a post-capitalist economy such as socialism, a peaceful revolution as in evolutionary socialism, or the establishment and support of a welfare state. Its origins lie in the 1860s as a form of revolutionary socialism associated with orthodox Marxism.

[DMC]

Let me know when you're done editing.

You agreed to the definition, then you asked me to look up another term, I did and you took issue with that as well. Now you say I created a strawman. I only posted definitions from Wiki. I didn't create anything.

[TheGreatYacht]

Pretty sure The Great Faggot doesn't know shit about socialism or communism, too focused on da jooz

Democratic Socialism Vs Social Democracy

https://youtu.be/07xFULkgBoI
Time for Bernie to Stop Calling Himself "Dem Socialist," Because He's Not

https://youtu.be/_GiwNrJx2uE

If you wanna get off your echo chamber, these videos will clarify your strawman arguments. Or at the very least see things from a leftist perspective.

Try to convince a brainwashed SJW that not every conservative is a racist or nazi. Good luck with that. That's like me trying to convince a brainwashed proud capitalist that not everyone on the left is a Marxist or communist.

As I said before, not everything is black and white. I don't agree with every single aspect of capitalism just as I don't agree with every single aspect of socialism. We can have the best of both worlds. It's called social democracy as spurraider21 said.

[AaronY]

See nobody knows what is lmao

When Elizabeth Warren says "Wrong to call me a Socialist"

https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/sen-warren-at-sxsw-wrong-to-say-im-socia-id524312450

And Bernie calls himself a Socialist when they have 99% of the same views lol I mean c'mon how you expect the average person to know what the fuck you're talking about

[AaronY]

I just use socialist as a slur myself really

[DMC]

Surely Bernie knows enough about politics to know his own political ideology.

[spurraider21]

See nobody knows what is lmao

When Elizabeth Warren says "Wrong to call me a Socialist"

https://www.reuters.com/video/watch/sen-warren-at-sxsw-wrong-to-say-im-socia-id524312450

And Bernie calls himself a Socialist when they have 99% of the same views lol I mean c'mon how you expect the average person to know what the fuck you're talking about
people get hung up on the labels just to attack. see DMC above. or all the OMG BERNIE = VENEZEULA

in reality, everyone's politics lies on a spectrum. you dont have to be a pure capitalist or pure socialist... we have a capitalist system with some socialist systems built in already. sanders/warren want to have more institutions become state controlled, namely healthcare.

even those who call themselves strict capitalists arent going around trying to take away medicare, social security, fire departments, etc

I just use socialist as a slur myself really
yeah or that

[DMC]

people get hung up on the labels just to attack. see DMC above. or all the OMG BERNIE = VENEZEULA

yeah or that

Bernie labeled himself. Why are you distancing Bernie from Socialism?

[spurraider21]

Bernie labeled himself. Why are you distancing Bernie from Socialism?
because i'm familiar with his policies.

when i first asked you to define socialism, and you gave the definition of democratic socialism, that definition provided for a socially owned economy (ergo, no capitalism, no private ventures, etc). and yet if you look at what bernie is advocating for, that's not it.

so he's not a pure socialist by the very definition you posted. he's just a lot closer to the socialist end of the spectrum that just about any other major politician in this country, so him calling himself a socialist is relative.

i mean, if you look up a definition of capitalism, it will say that that industry and trade are controlled by the private sector, and not the state. and yet we know that is not an entirely accurate definition of the current US. so anybody who says they are a capitalist but dont want to abolish medicare, social security, minimum wages, etc is also being inaccurate if you are going to be nitpicky

so if we're not capitalist, and we're not socialist, what are we? or you just stop being dense for a second and consider that we are somewhere on a spectrum.

[spurraider21]

:cry stop editing your posts :cry

what a baby tbh

[spurraider21]

i keep telling you its lazy to take any long definition and think it applies wholesale, because there's nuance. i know that involves marginally more critical thought than just being lazy but thems the breaks

[spurraider21]

- bernie is a socialist!

i show that he isn't actually a socialist because he's not trying to have the state control all industry

- but bernie calls himself a socialist!

and yet that doesnt invalidate the 2nd line of this post...

[DMC]

:cry stop editing your posts :cry

what a baby tbh


i keep telling you its lazy to take any long definition and think it applies wholesale, because there's nuance. i know that involves marginally more critical thought than just being lazy but thems the breaks


- bernie is a socialist!

i show that he isn't actually a socialist because he's not trying to have the state control all industry

- but bernie calls himself a socialist!

and yet that doesnt invalidate the 2nd line of this post...

So you know more about Bernie than he knows about himself?

So either Bernie is what he claims to be or he's ignorant, a liar or delusional. Which is it?

[DMC]

because i'm familiar with his policies.

when i first asked you to define socialism, and you gave the definition of democratic socialism, that definition provided for a socially owned economy (ergo, no capitalism, no private ventures, etc). and yet if you look at what bernie is advocating for, that's not it.

so he's not a pure socialist by the very definition you posted. he's just a lot closer to the socialist end of the spectrum that just about any other major politician in this country, so him calling himself a socialist is relative.

i mean, if you look up a definition of capitalism, it will say that that industry and trade are controlled by the private sector, and not the state. and yet we know that is not an entirely accurate definition of the current US. so anybody who says they are a capitalist but dont want to abolish medicare, social security, minimum wages, etc is also being inaccurate if you are going to be nitpicky

so if we're not capitalist, and we're not socialist, what are we? or you just stop being dense for a second and consider that we are somewhere on a spectrum.

But this all stems from someone saying I don't know what socialism is, which came from me saying I take issue with Bernie being a millionaire through capitalism when he claims to be a socialist.

You accepted the definition I posted. Now you're trying to use special pleading. I mean, of course he's not a true socialist, that was my original fucking point. Why would a socialist seek to profit from the private industry? So is Bernie a fraud?

If you're going to interject, you must have some position you're defending. What are you defending?

[DMC]

Yes. And it doesn't contradict his socialism. As I explained in the post you ignored completely, which is what I would probably do too if I didn't understand socialism vs. communism.



You are obsessed with me and it's officially creepy now.
:lol You interject with a turd remark and somehow I'm obsessed with you? :lmao

Bernie "I'm a democratic socialist"

Me: "He doesn't act like it"

ST Avengers: "You don't know what socialism is!"

.
.
.
.
shit slinging
.
.
.
.
ST Avengers "Bernie doesn't act like a socialist! See, you don't know what a socialist is!"

[spurraider21]

But this all stems from someone saying I don't know what socialism is, which came from me saying I take issue with Bernie being a millionaire through capitalism when he claims to be a socialist.

You accepted the definition I posted. Now you're trying to use special pleading. I mean, of course he's not a true socialist, that was my original fucking point. Why would a socialist seek to profit from the private industry? So is Bernie a fraud?

If you're going to interject, you must have some position you're defending. What are you defending?
you're upset because he calls himself a socialist when he's not a pure socialist. i'm saying thats a very nitpicky position, because i dont see you complaining about people who call themselves capitalists despite not being pure capitalists

[TheGreatYacht]

You accepted the definition I posted. Now you're trying to use special pleading. I mean, of course he's not a true socialist, that was my original fucking point. Why would a socialist seek to profit from the private industry? So is Bernie a fraud?


DMC, the purist :lol. The "you're either with us or against us" mentality :lol

He just doesn't get it :lmao

It's beyond his realm of comprehension :lol

That's what happens when you never get off your echo chamber folks. Just like when a libtard calls every conservative a nazi or racist.

[Chris]

Fdfru9NHGvE

[TheGreatYacht]

Fdfru9NHGvE

Zionist Jew Dennis Prager trying to divide the masses into choosing one or the other :lol

[Chris]

Zionist Jew Dennis Prager trying to divide the masses into choosing one or the other :lol

That's Andrew Puzder...you obviously didn't watch the video and had an insta disconnect because evil Jews control everything.

[TheGreatYacht]

That's Andrew Puzder...you obviously didn't watch the video and had an insta disconnect because evil Jews control everything.https://mobile.twitter.com/Vidarshnu/status/1163524538812030977
PragerU :lol

[Chris]

Harry Waton :lol

[Isitjustme?]

Fdfru9NHGvE

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOc-BHFXkAAI_E7?format=jpg&name=small

[spurraider21]

PragerU :lol


Harry Waton :lol
:lol

[DMC]

you're upset because he calls himself a socialist when he's not a pure socialist. i'm saying thats a very nitpicky position, because i dont see you complaining about people who call themselves capitalists despite not being pure capitalists

You continually misrepresent my position. Is that because you cannot find a path back to where you actually agree with what I said - that Bernie isn't a true socialist?

[ChumpDumper]

You continually misrepresent my position. Is that because you cannot find a path back to where you actually agree with what I said - that Bernie isn't a true socialist?You got dragged pretty hard, DMC. You should've given up last night tbh.

[Spurminator]

:lol You interject with a turd remark and somehow I'm obsessed with you? :lmao

Your response to my calling out your strawman was to reference an alt I haven't used in three years and a church membership that I've posted about a handful of times. It's weird.


Bernie "I'm a democratic socialist"

Me: "He doesn't act like it"

ST Avengers: "You don't know what socialism is!"

.
.
.
.
shit slinging
.
.
.
.
ST Avengers "Bernie doesn't act like a socialist! See, you don't know what a socialist is!"

You don't know what socialists act like and you don't know what socialism is. You cannot name a single socialist or reference any socialist writing that questions or criticizes the practice of making money from one's writing. You've invented a version of socialism that doesn't exist so you can more easily argue against it.

You also conjure up scenarios about other posters ganging up on you because you're insecure in your position. It's also why you play hypeman for posts from the likes of Chris and Koriwhat since they're the only idiots who will validate your stupid arguments.

[DMC]

^Look who returns to their vomit

:lol Believes the fevered dream in the Revelations to John
:lol Probably went to a religious school and got a liberal arts degree
:lol Flaccid attempts at intellectual bullying

[DMC]

You got dragged pretty hard, DMC. You should've given up last night tbh.

:lol grading your own work
:lol carrying Bernie's torch
:lol Bernie is a fraud
:lol Getting cucked again by CNN and the DNC

[ChumpDumper]

:lol grading your own work
:lol carrying Bernie's torch
:lol Bernie is a fraud
:lol Getting cucked again by CNN and the DNC:lol lashing out because SR exposed your fallacies.

[DMC]

:lol lashing out because SR exposed your fallacies.

Do you mean Bernie's fallacies?

Do you think Bernie is a democratic socialist?

:lol "lashing out" - Chumpy needs to make everything more dramatic

[ChumpDumper]

Do you mean Bernie's fallacies?

Do you think Bernie is a democratic socialist?

:lol "lashing out" - Chumpy needs to make everything more dramaticI mean your fallacies, DMC.

You're making your failure more dramatic by doubling down on it.:lol

[DMC]

:lol Neiman Marxists running from their failed political ideology - in denial
:lol "Bernie's not a socialist!" - ST Avengers
:lol "I'm a democratic socialist" -Bernie

:lmao

[DMC]

I mean your fallacies, DMC.

You're making your failure more dramatic by doubling down on it.:lol

Do you think Bernie is a democratic socialist?

[ChumpDumper]

Do you think Bernie is a democratic socialist?I think you tried to use wikipedia seriously.:lol

Now, maybe you can find me Bernie's explicit plan for government control of the publishing industry.

I'll wait for your honest and sincere argument.

[DMC]

I think you tried to use wikipedia seriously.:lol

SR21 accepted the definition and was free to post an alternative.

Do you think Bernie is a democratic socialist? Since you refuse to answer that, I'd say that's a sensitive subject. You don't want to admit Bernie is either ignorant, dishonest or delusional.

[Spurminator]

^Look who returns to their vomit

:lol Believes the fevered dream in the Revelations to John
:lol Probably went to a religious school and got a liberal arts degree
:lol Flaccid attempts at intellectual bullying


:lol grading your own work
:lol carrying Bernie's torch
:lol Bernie is a fraud
:lol Getting cucked again by CNN and the DNC


:lol Neiman Marxists running from their failed political ideology - in denial
:lol "Bernie's not a socialist!" - ST Avengers
:lol "I'm a democratic socialist" -Bernie

:lmao

Full fledged meltdown.

We did it, Avengers! Thanks for answering the "beacon!"

:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

SR21 accepted the definition and was free to post an alternative.

Do you think Bernie is a democratic socialist? Since you refuse to answer that, I'd say that's a sensitive subject. You don't want to admit Bernie is either ignorant, dishonest or delusional.I disagree with your definition since you think it means federal control of the publishing industry.

Now, what is your evidence that Bernie has a plan for government control of the publishing industry?

This is going to be an incredibly sensitive subject for you, so you'll probably shut the fuck up about it like you always do when you're called out on your bullshit. You don't want to admit you are either ignorant, dishonest or delusional.

You'll need to change the subject to me personally or whine about posters' ganging up on you.

[DMC]

I disagree with your definition since you think it means federal control of the publishing industry.

Now, what is your evidence that Bernie has a plan for government control of the publishing industry?

This is going to be an incredibly sensitive subject for you, so you'll probably shut the fuck up about it like you always do when you're called out on your bullshit. You don't want to admit you are either ignorant, dishonest or delusional.

You'll need to change the subject to me personally or whine about posters' ganging up on you.

Simple question. Do you believe Bernie is a democratic socialist? Offer whatever definition you can find for that term. Is it or isn't he?

All that talking you just did and still cannot answer a simple question.

[DMC]

Full fledged meltdown.

We did it, Avengers! Thanks for answering the "beacon!"

:lmao

:lol So I was right, you're a liberal arts/theology person

Explains why you're confused.

[Spurminator]

:lol So I was right, you're a liberal arts/theology person

Explains why you're confused.

You're incorrect. Now go find out my name and look me up on LinkedIn, creep.

[DMC]

You're incorrect. Now go find out my name and look me up on LinkedIn, creep.

You already said you're a theist. Your liberal stance doesn't jibe with your god belief. Must suck having to hold all that in..

:lol social media

[ChumpDumper]

Simple question. Do you believe Bernie is a democratic socialist? Offer whatever definition you can find for that term. Is it or isn't he?

All that talking you just did and still cannot answer a simple question.I think he is according to his own definition. His definition can be found in his rather extensive oral and written record.

Not in a single wikipedia ariticle.

Now, what is your evidence that Bernie has a plan for government control of the publishing industry?

It's a simple question.

Answer it.

[ChumpDumper]

You're incorrect. Now go find out my name and look me up on LinkedIn, creep.:lol What makes you think he hasn't done that already?

[Spurminator]

You already said you're a theist. Your liberal stance doesn't jibe with your god belief. Must suck having to hold all that in..

:lol social media

I've said I'm a Christian. You're incorrect about my degree.

My liberal stance aligns just fine with my religion.

Your rants against theism are pretty toothless considering you yuk it up with the most vocal "Christians" on this forum and never have a thing to say about their Christianity. But you and I both know this isn't about religion, it's about your insecure desperation to be validated.

[DMC]

I've said I'm a Christian. You're incorrect about my degree.

My liberal stance aligns just fine with my religion.

Your rants against theism are pretty toothless considering you yuk it up with the most vocal "Christians" on this forum and never have a thing to say about their Christianity. But you and I both know this isn't about religion, it's about your insecure desperation to be validated.

I don't have any rants against theism. I usually defend people who are being attacked solely for their theism even though I am atheist. My comment was aimed at your "fevered dream fantasy" which really resonates with the book of Revelations. If you believe a 2000 year old dream interpretation is the end of times prophecy, why do you use such a term "fevered dream fantasy" and not realize how hypocritical it sounds?

Now, is Bernie a democratic socialist or not?

You and I need to bury the hatchet. What say old horse?

[DMC]

I think he is according to his own definition. His definition can be found in his rather extensive oral and written record.

Not in a single wikipedia ariticle.

Now, what is your evidence that Bernie has a plan for government control of the publishing industry?

It's a simple question.

Answer it.

According to his own definition.

:lol

de·lu·sion·al

adjective
characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

[ChumpDumper]

According to his own definition.

:lol

de·lu·sion·al

adjective
characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.Right, you appear to have deluded yourself into thinking Bernie has called for government control of the publishing industry.

Now, what is your evidence that Bernie has a plan for government control of the publishing industry?

It's a simple question.

Answer it.

[Spurminator]

I don't have any rants against theism. I usually defend people who are being attacked solely for their theism even though I am atheist. My comment was aimed at your "fevered dream fantasy" which really resonates with the book of Revelations. If you believe a 2000 year old dream interpretation is the end of times prophecy, why do you use such a term "fevered dream fantasy" and not realize how hypocritical it sounds?

I mean if it makes you feel better about my phrasing, I don't believe in a literal interpretation of Revelation or most of the Bible. Point being, just because you get pushback from several posters doesn't mean we're coordinating or ganging up on you.


Now, is Bernie a democratic socialist or not?

Yes. And as it has been covered several times, that's not at odds with making money from a book, because socialism doesn't demand that publishing be controlled by the state.


You and I need to bury the hatchet. What say old horse?

I don't take any of this personally so there's no hatchet to bury. Come on, this is what we're all here for.

[spurraider21]

You continually misrepresent my position. Is that because you cannot find a path back to where you actually agree with what I said - that Bernie isn't a true socialist?
a) see all my posts about your lazy adherence to labels instead of a nuanced analysis of his actual policies

b) :lmao here’s all the times i did what you claim i didn’t in the bolded

because i'm familiar with his policies.

when i first asked you to define socialism, and you gave the definition of democratic socialism, that definition provided for a socially owned economy (ergo, no capitalism, no private ventures, etc). and yet if you look at what bernie is advocating for, that's not it.

so he's not a pure socialist by the very definition you posted. he's just a lot closer to the socialist end of the spectrum that just about any other major politician in this country, so him calling himself a socialist is relative.

i mean, if you look up a definition of capitalism, it will say that that industry and trade are controlled by the private sector, and not the state. and yet we know that is not an entirely accurate definition of the current US. so anybody who says they are a capitalist but dont want to abolish medicare, social security, minimum wages, etc is also being inaccurate if you are going to be nitpicky

so if we're not capitalist, and we're not socialist, what are we? or you just stop being dense for a second and consider that we are somewhere on a spectrum.


- bernie is a socialist!

i show that he isn't actually a socialist because he's not trying to have the state control all industry

- but bernie calls himself a socialist!

and yet that doesnt invalidate the 2nd line of this post...


you're upset because he calls himself a socialist when he's not a pure socialist. i'm saying thats a very nitpicky position, because i dont see you complaining about people who call themselves capitalists despite not being pure capitalists

[spurraider21]

And i didn’t misrepresent your position at all. You’re angry because Bernie calls himself socialist while he makes money from book deals (which is perfectly compatible with his actual policy positions since he’s not a pure socialist and he doesn’t think the state should own all industries including publishing)

[ChumpDumper]

:crybut wiki sez:cry

[DMC]

I mean if it makes you feel better about my phrasing, I don't believe in a literal interpretation of Revelation or most of the Bible. Point being, just because you get pushback from several posters doesn't mean we're coordinating or ganging up on you.


The fact you say "we're" indicates just the opposite. I don't ever argue from a group position.


Yes. And as it has been covered several times, that's not at odds with making money from a book, because socialism doesn't demand that publishing be controlled by the state.

It's not the publishing I take issue with. It's the profit he made by selling based on supply/demand. Bernie ragged for decades about millionaires. Now he is one. He became that way through capitalism, not socialism.


I don't take any of this personally so there's no hatchet to bury. Come on, this is what we're all here for.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/03/01/f9/0301f99230234ef04372f51050421713--make-peace-language-school.jpg

[DMC]

And i didn’t misrepresent your position at all. You’re angry because Bernie calls himself socialist while he makes money from book deals (which is perfectly compatible with his actual policy positions since he’s not a pure socialist and he doesn’t think the state should own all industries including publishing)

Ratchet down the drama. It's unnecessary.

Bernie describes himself one way - you and a few others here allow for a customized definition of that. Bernie has an entire career of preaching socialism, why you are here now pretending he's not a socialist is beyond me. What do you hope to achieve?

[DMC]

a) see all my posts about your lazy adherence to labels instead of a nuanced analysis of his actual policies

b) :lmao here’s all the times i did what you claim i didn’t in the bolded

That's why I said "path back".

You must have initially been somewhere to even qualify to find your way back. All these times you agreed he's not what he claims to be. Researching Bernie even a little gives a clear image that Bernie is indeed socialist but he's trying to soften the image because the country still isn't ready to accept that term as anything other than communism. Warren knows this. Bernie is moving slowly but his political beliefs from 40 years ago were even more radical then than they would be now, but somehow he's moved closer to the center? I don't buy that.

[ChumpDumper]

Ratchet down the drama. It's unnecessary.

Bernie describes himself one way - you and a few others here allow for a customized definition of that. Bernie has an entire career of preaching socialism, why you are here now pretending he's not a socialist is beyond me. What do you hope to achieve?When did he describe himself as in favor of the government's control of the publishing industry?

It's a simple question.

[TheGreatYacht]

https://mobile.twitter.com/amazingatheist/status/1218946811106406400

[DMC]

When did he describe himself as in favor of the government's control of the publishing industry?

It's a simple question.

Define democratic socialist. I mean, since you won't accept the common definition.

[ChumpDumper]

Define democratic socialist. I mean, since you won't accept the common definition.:crymuh wiki:cry

Question pending.

When did he describe himself as in favor of the government's control of the publishing industry?

It's a simple question.

Answer it.

[DMC]

:crymuh wiki:cry

Question pending.

When did he describe himself as in favor of the government's control of the publishing industry?

It's a simple question.

Answer it.

Your question is without merit. It has no bearing on the discussion.

Now define the term since you dismissed the Wiki description or simply settle for my version of it, like you did with Bernie.

[ChumpDumper]

Your question is without merit. It has no bearing on the discussion. :lol I accept your folding on your original premise.

As for the rest, I'll let Bernie speak for himself.


Mr. Sanders identifies as a democratic socialist, but when asked on Tuesday how he defined that, he described something closer to social democracy.

“What democratic socialism essentially means to me is completing the vision that Franklin Delano Roosevelt started some 85 years ago, and that is to go forward in the wealthiest country in the history of the world and guarantee a decent economic standard of living in life for all of our people,” he said. “And to do that, obviously we have to combat oligarchy and the incredibly unfair and unequal distribution of wealth and income, and to take on the incredible political power that the 1 percent have.”

The policies Mr. Sanders supports — like single-payer health care, free public college, and higher taxes on the wealthy to fund safety-net programs — are also standard in social democracies.

“His practical program is a program that would be pretty comfortable within the confines of any European country,” said Sheri Berman, a professor of political science at Barnard College. “As far as the policies he’s advocating, those are probably better viewed as social democratic — that’s what they would be in another place in which there are more left options.”

But “because we don’t have a social-democratic party in this country,” Professor Berman said, “the only way to indicate that you want to go further than the Democratic Party — that you are more critical of capitalism than the Democratic Party has been — has been to identify yourself as a democratic socialist.”

And so, even on a question as basic as whether democratic socialism and capitalism can coexist, there is disagreement.

“There are some democratic socialists that would say, ‘Absolutely not,’” Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, who identifies as a democratic socialist, told MSNBC in February. Others — herself included, she said — “would say, ‘I think it’s possible.’”

So we can conclude that your lazy-ass wiki definition is bullshit when it comes to Bernie as well as AOC and probably a large part of the group calling themselves Democratic Socialists in this country. All that's left for you is to flail about and attempt to change the subject. We can now call it the No True Democratic Socialist fallacy.

[DMC]

:lol I accept your folding on your original premise.

As for the rest, I'll let Bernie speak for himself.



So we can conclude that your lazy-ass wiki definition is bullshit when it comes to Bernie as well as AOC. All that's left for you is to flail about and attempt to change the subject. We can now call it the No True Democratic Socialist fallacy.

So Bernie is delusional or ignorant since he describes himself as something different than he claims to be.

And since you like quotes:

"If we wanted to quibble about terminology, I’d say this approach is less “democratic socialist” than it is “social democratic.” But the “socialist” label is core to Sanders’s identity — both as a matter of branding and his own political past. Decades ago, Sanders used to be much more radical. In 1976, he gave an interview endorsing “the public ownership of utilities, banks, and major industries.” He has spent his life marinating in anti-capitalist political ideas and communities; his political vision and language reflect that.

This is what separates him even from Warren, whose rhetoric hits many of the same themes about the threat posed by the greedy rich and the need for a popular movement to oppose them. Warren is a more natural heir to FDR than Sanders — a liberal who explicitly wants to save capitalism from itself, and a product of a left-liberal political tradition rather than a socialist one." -Vox

Sanders didn't "come around". He's still who he was. He just tries to package it more user friendly to get elected.

[spurraider21]

That's why I said "path back".

You must have initially been somewhere to even qualify to find your way back. All these times you agreed he's not what he claims to be. Researching Bernie even a little gives a clear image that Bernie is indeed socialist but he's trying to soften the image because the country still isn't ready to accept that term as anything other than communism. Warren knows this. Bernie is moving slowly but his political beliefs from 40 years ago were even more radical then than they would be now, but somehow he's moved closer to the center? I don't buy that.
:lol no. I never considered him a pure socialist so there’s no need for me to “find a path back” whatever the fuck that means.

:lol researching him a little bit gives a clear image that he is a socialist. What research? So far the closest thing you’ve done to research him is to look up wiki definitions and try to apply them wholesale in an incredibly lazy way after i specifically said that’s an awful way to go about this discussion

[ChumpDumper]

So Bernie is delusional or ignorant since he describes himself as something different than he claims to be.

And since you like quotes:

"If we wanted to quibble about terminology, I’d say this approach is less “democratic socialist” than it is “social democratic.” But the “socialist” label is core to Sanders’s identity — both as a matter of branding and his own political past. Decades ago, Sanders used to be much more radical. In 1976, he gave an interview endorsing “the public ownership of utilities, banks, and major industries.” He has spent his life marinating in anti-capitalist political ideas and communities; his political vision and language reflect that.

This is what separates him even from Warren, whose rhetoric hits many of the same themes about the threat posed by the greedy rich and the need for a popular movement to oppose them. Warren is a more natural heir to FDR than Sanders — a liberal who explicitly wants to save capitalism from itself, and a product of a left-liberal political tradition rather than a socialist one." -Vox

Sanders didn't "come around". He's still who he was. He just tries to package it more user friendly to get elected.
I saw no quotes from Bernie in there at all.

You're flailing.

And you deluded yourself into quadrupling down on your No True Democratic Socialist fallacy.

There is zero evidence supporting your deluded claim he wants government to run the publishing industry.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol no. I never considered him a pure socialist so there’s no need for me to “find a path back” whatever the fuck that means.

:lol researching him a little bit gives a clear image that he is a socialist. What research? So far the closest thing you’ve done to research him is to look up wiki definitions and try to apply them wholesale in an incredibly lazy way after i specifically said that’s an awful way to go about this discussionThe herculean effort he has put into defending such a lazy premise is amusing.

[DMC]

:lol no. I never considered him a pure socialist so there’s no need for me to “find a path back” whatever the fuck that means.

You're lost. Agreeing with me that he's not a real socialist because he profits from capitalism is where you were originally. You even said so. Try to keep up, Philo.


:lol researching him a little bit gives a clear image that he is a socialist. What research? So far the closest thing you’ve done to research him is to look up wiki definitions and try to apply them wholesale in an incredibly lazy way after i specifically said that’s an awful way to go about this discussion
You have no idea what I've done. How could you?

Your disingenuous shtick is tiring. The definition was only used to get a basis for discussion. You agreed with it. Now you're on the "lol Wiki" bandwagon. Speaking of lazy, non of you has offered an alternative definition for democratic socialist, and instead keep deferring to Bernie for a customized definition. You seem unable to accept the choices that either Bernie is delusional, dishonest or ignorant. You've avoided that entirely in your fervor to misrepresent my position so you can more easily defend yours.

[DMC]

I saw no quotes from Bernie in there at all.

You're flailing.

And you deluded yourself into quadrupling down on your No True Democratic Socialist fallacy.

There is zero evidence supporting your deluded claim he wants government to run the publishing industry.

You assumed I was quoting Bernie. I never said that. You make too many assumptions.

You're using circular reasoning (Bernie is a democratic socialist because Bernie says so, and we know it's true even though Bernie defines it differently, because Bernie says so), as if the term has no actual definition. Bernie doesn't get to redefine terms. Neither do you.

[spurraider21]

You're lost. Agreeing with me that he's not a real socialist because he profits from capitalism is where you were originally. You even said so. Try to keep up, Philo.
of course it was. That’s why your whole “path back” shtick made no sense


You have no idea what I've done. How could you?

Your disingenuous shtick is tiring. The definition was only used to get a basis for discussion. You agreed with it. Now you're on the "lol Wiki" bandwagon. Speaking of lazy, non of you has offered an alternative definition for democratic socialist, and instead keep deferring to Bernie for a customized definition. You seem unable to accept the choices that either Bernie is delusional, dishonest or ignorant. You've avoided that entirely in your fervor to misrepresent my position so you can more easily defend yours.
It’s not a “lol wiki” situation. I have said numerous times in this discussion that taking any long definition and trying to apply it wholesale is lazy. I proffered the social democrat description because i said it better describes his positions than the definition you offered. I again, in that very post, cautioned against lazily claiming that he subscribes to the entirety of that article/definition

[spurraider21]

Ratchet down the drama. It's unnecessary.

Bernie describes himself one way - you and a few others here allow for a customized definition of that. Bernie has an entire career of preaching socialism, why you are here now pretending he's not a socialist is beyond me. What do you hope to achieve?


Socialist relying on capitalism? Ya I have a problem with it.
You said you had a problem with it. I said angry. THATS your big issue? :lol

”why you are here now pretending he’s not a socialist”

im not pretending. I’m familiar with his policy goals. Having the state run all industry including publishing isn’t among them. On the spectrum between socialism and capitalism, he’s closer to the socialism side than just about any American politician.

[spurraider21]

If we are sticking to that rigid definition then it’s an inaccurate description of what Sanders stands for.

Now look up Social Democracy on wiki and that’s a much better description of what he advocates for.

However you want to slice it, it’s lazy to just slap on a label and then assume he subscribes to every word of a paragraphs-long definition you found online. better approach is to actually learn the guys positions. He hadn’t called for the state to take over the market and to eliminate private businesses, property, etc. it’s just an absurd strawman
For reference

[DMC]

of course it was. That’s why your whole “path back” shtick made no sense


Because you kept getting away from it with your hyperbole about anger and being upset. You keep trying to separate Bernie from the socialism ideology as if I didn't already do that in my initial comment. You agreed that Bernie isn't a true socialist, but he does claim to be a democratic socialist. You accepted the definition of democratic socialist (with the option to provide an alternative one).

It’s not a “lol wiki” situation. I have said numerous times in this discussion that taking any long definition and trying to apply it wholesale is lazy. I proffered the social democrat description because i said it better describes his positions than the definition you offered. I again, in that very post, cautioned against lazily claiming that he subscribes to the entirety of that article/definition
I left that up to you. You accepted it. You can recall that and provide a different definition if you like. I just refuse to accept "whatever Bernie says" as a definition for it.

So is Bernie dishonest, delusional or ignorant?

If Bernie creates his own customized definition for democratic socialist, that's either dishonest or delusional
If he accepts the common description and just doesn't adhere to it, then he's dishonest to use that term.
If he doesn't understand the difference between his actual position and democratic socialism, then he's ignorant.

Which is it? Do you see another alternative?

[ChumpDumper]

You assumed I was quoting Bernie. I never said that. You make too many assumptions.

You're using circular reasoning (Bernie is a democratic socialist because Bernie says so, and we know it's true even though Bernie defines it differently, because Bernie says so), as if the term has no actual definition. Bernie doesn't get to redefine terms. Neither do you.:lmao quintupling down on :crymuh wiki:cry and your No True Democratic Socialist fallacy.

Bernie has his own definition. AOC has hers. Both include capitalism. Somehow they're still US Democratic Socialists-- that's been succinctly explained to you.

Despite you demand for wiki orthodoxy.:lol

[DMC]

For reference

That was about socialism.

Bernie claims to be a democratic socialist. I did post the description of that as well. It's not my claim that he's a democratic socialist, but his.

[ChumpDumper]

Because you kept getting away from it with your hyperbole about anger and being upset. You keep trying to separate Bernie from the socialism ideology as if I didn't already do that in my initial comment. You agreed that Bernie isn't a true socialist, but he does claim to be a democratic socialist. You accepted the definition of democratic socialist (with the option to provide an alternative one).
I left that up to you. You accepted it. You can recall that and provide a different definition if you like. I just refuse to accept "whatever Bernie says" as a definition for it.

So is Bernie dishonest, delusional or ignorant?

If Bernie creates his own customized definition for democratic socialist, that's either dishonest or delusional
If he accepts the common description and just doesn't adhere to it, then he's dishonest to use that term.
If he doesn't understand the difference between his actual position and democratic socialism, then he's ignorant.

Which is it? Do you see another alternative?I mean your own Vox article says

“Democratic socialism” in Sanders’s definition

You can reject it all you want, but he does have his own definition-- as does AOC. Both include capitalism. You can speculate on their motives, honesty or ignorance, but it just looks like in the US a lot of social democrats fall under the Democratic Socialist label.

And it's not that big a deal.

[DMC]

I mean your own Vox article says


You can reject it all you want, but he does have his own definition-- as does AOC. Both include capitalism. You can speculate on their motives, honesty or ignorance, but it just looks like in the US a lot of social democrats fall under the Democratic Socialist label.

And it's not that big a deal.

We'll see come election won't we?

[ChumpDumper]

We'll see come election won't we?What would that have to do with the election?

Explain.

[spurraider21]

"you know, i WAS going to vote for bernie but then i realized he calls himself a democratic socialist instead of a social democrat, so instead im going to vote for trump"

:lmao

[DMC]

"you know, i WAS going to vote for bernie but then i realized he calls himself a democratic socialist instead of a social democrat, so instead im going to vote for trump"

:lmao

Go with that strawman.

[DMC]

What would that have to do with the election?

Explain.

You think dems are going to vote for a self professed socialist? Even if his stance is not actually socialist, how many voters actually know anything about the candidate they are voting for? Bernie will get beaten in his own party by self professed capitalists who aren't really capitalists.

[ChumpDumper]

You think dems are going to vote for a self professed socialist? Even if his stance is not actually socialist, how many voters actually know anything about the candidate they are voting for? Bernie will get beaten in his own party by self professed capitalists who aren't really capitalists.Oh, so nothing you were actually trying to argue is relevant to the election.

I agree.

[spurraider21]

I mean your own Vox article says


You can reject it all you want, but he does have his own definition-- as does AOC. Both include capitalism. You can speculate on their motives, honesty or ignorance, but it just looks like in the US a lot of social democrats fall under the Democratic Socialist label.

And it's not that big a deal.


We'll see come election won't we?
you straight up said "we'll see come election" in response to bernie using his own definition of what democratic socialist... and now are changing that to


You think dems are going to vote for a self professed socialist? Even if his stance is not actually socialist, how many voters actually know anything about the candidate they are voting for? Bernie will get beaten in his own party by self professed capitalists who aren't really capitalists.

[DMC]

you straight up said "we'll see come election" in response to bernie using his own definition of what democratic socialist... and now are changing that to

:lol

This is how it works with you folks. You respond to my answer to Chump and he responds to my answer to you.

You're so lost now I don't know if I can get you back on track.

[boutons_deux]

ClintonNN intent on cratering Bernie

CNN: Bernie Sanders’ Plans Could Cost $60 Trillion or More in Extra Federal Spending

https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-bernie-sanders-plans-could-cost-60-trillion-or-more-in-extra-federal-spending/ (https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-bernie-sanders-plans-could-cost-60-trillion-or-more-in-extra-federal-spending/)

[DMC]

Oh, so nothing you were actually trying to argue is relevant to the election.

I agree.

Of course it's relevant. You said it's no big deal whether someone identifies as a democrat or socialist. Socialist democrat is one thing, but democratic socialist is something else, and the 2nd is how Bernie self identifies because he won't let go of socialism. It will affect his chances. You can deny it after the fact all you like, and find other causes but if Bernie loses to Warren or Biden, it's probably due to him claiming to be a socialist.

[DMC]

ClintonNN intent on cratering Bernie

CNN: Bernie Sanders’ Plans Could Cost $60 Trillion or More in Extra Federal Spending

https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-bernie-sanders-plans-could-cost-60-trillion-or-more-in-extra-federal-spending/ (https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-bernie-sanders-plans-could-cost-60-trillion-or-more-in-extra-federal-spending/)

CNN bad now

[ChumpDumper]

:lol

This is how it works with you folks. You respond to my answer to Chump and he responds to my answer to you.

You're so lost now I don't know if I can get you back on track.:lmao you just agreed with me that the distinction between Social Democrat and Democratic socialist isn't a big deal because that distinction would mean nothing in the general election with Bernie as a candidate.

[ChumpDumper]

Of course it's relevant. You said it's no big deal whether someone identifies as a democrat or socialist. Socialist democrat is one thing, but democratic socialist is something else, and the 2nd is how Bernie self identifies because he won't let go of socialism. It will affect his chances. You can deny it after the fact all you like, and find other causes but if Bernie loses to Warren or Biden, it's probably due to him claiming to be a socialist.:lol Trump is going to call any opponent a radical socialist. No distinction will be made.

And now you moved the goalposts back to the primaries.

You're lost.

[DMC]

:lmao you just agreed with me that the distinction between Social Democrat and Democratic socialist isn't a big deal because that distinction would mean nothing in the general election with Bernie as a candidate.

When did I do that exactly? Use your quote tags.

[DMC]

:lol Trump is going to call any opponent a radical socialist. No distinction will be made.

And now you moved the goalposts back to the primaries.

You're lost.
If you call yourself a socialist, Trump won't need to. Bernie isn't facing Trump, he's facing Warren and Biden mostly.

[spurraider21]

:lol

This is how it works with you folks. You respond to my answer to Chump and he responds to my answer to you.

You're so lost now I don't know if I can get you back on track.
you're lost. the posts are right there

chump said the distinction between the democratic socialist and social democrat titles is not that big a deal

your direct response was "we'll see come election"

i'm following just fine, you just keep shitting yourself at every turn

[ChumpDumper]

Socialist democrat is one thing, but democratic socialist is something elseBernie's not being an actual member of the Democratic party is an issue and has been before.

I've said this.

The average voter isn't going to even do your lazy research into terms that barely mean anything in US politics. They'll look at Bernie's positions, listen to his words and see if they like them. Especially his call for a government takeover of the publishing industry you insist he must be advocating.

[DMC]

you're lost. the posts are right there

chump said the distinction between the democratic socialist and social democrat titles is not that big a deal

your direct response was "we'll see come election"

i'm following just fine, you just keep shitting yourself at every turn

:lol Chump said

What does this have to do with your assertions?

Let your argument stand on its own.

:cry "we're not piling on"

[DMC]

When did I do that exactly? Use your quote tags.


Bernie's not being an actual member of the Democratic party is an issue and has been before.

I've said this.

The average voter isn't going to even do your lazy research into terms that barely mean anything in US politics. They'll look at Bernie's positions, listen to his words and see if they like them. Especially his call for a government takeover of the publishing industry you insist he must be advocating.

Quote what you claim I agreed with you on or retract it.

The average voter won't research anyone. I don't know what "average voter" you've been talking to. I mean, Trump won. Do you think the average voter researched Trump and his lengthy background in politics or they just voted for the republican candidate who say shit they agree with on TV?

[ChumpDumper]

:lol Chump said

What does this have to do with your assertions?

Let your argument stand on its own.

:cry "we're not piling on"Uh, he can't really make an argument without recounting what I said.

[ChumpDumper]

Quote what you claim I agreed with you on or retract it.

The average voter won't research anyone. I don't know what "average voter" you've been talking to. I mean, Trump won. Do you think the average voter researched Trump and his lengthy background in politics or they just voted for the republican candidate who say shit they agree with on TV?
:lmao you're agreeing with me again.

[DMC]

Uh, he can't really make an argument without recounting what I said.

He still has his own argument he can fall back on. I realize that's an extreme measure around here but it's there for him.

[DMC]

:lmao you're agreeing with me again.

Agree about not researching, but not about listening to Bernie and deciding based on his position. I don't think they'll look at him at all outside of maybe a debate. He won't lose voters, mostly, but he won't gain any. I have a lower opinion of the average voter than you, obviously. I think they will vote based on his appearance and the label of socialist. He'll be the far left extreme on the stage, and Warren already painted him as a misogynist and a CNN painted him as a liar. His positions might as well be a settlement on Mars.

[spurraider21]

:lol Chump said

What does this have to do with your assertions?

Let your argument stand on its own.

:cry "we're not piling on"
my argument did. sanders isn't a pure socialist. i've said so all along. you blew a gasket because he makes money off his books despite calling himself a democratic socialist, which i said doesnt contradict his values because he has never advocated for state control over all industry, including book publications, and that its very lazy to look up a long definition of whatever brand of socialism and try to claim somebody must subscribe to every single world/sentence within such definition

[DMC]

my argument did. sanders isn't a pure socialist. i've said so all along. you blew a gasket because he makes money off his books despite calling himself a democratic socialist, which i said doesnt contradict his values because he has never advocated for state control over all industry, including book publications, and that its very lazy to look up a long definition of whatever brand of socialism and try to claim somebody must subscribe to every single world/sentence within such definition

:lol

You went from "take issue with" to "angry" to "upset" to "blew a gasket".

Your need to insert drama where none exists tells me you don't really have anything else to offer.

“Is it right that the middle class continues to disappear while there has been a massive transfer of wealth from working families to the top one-tenth of 1 percent? Trillions of dollars in the last 30 years have flowed from the middle class to the top one-tenth of 1 percent. And the American people say, ‘No, that’s not right.’ ” -Bernie the millionaire

[spurraider21]

:lol

You went from "take issue with" to "angry" to "upset" to "blew a gasket".

Your need to insert drama where none exists tells me you don't really have anything else to offer.

“Is it right that the middle class continues to disappear while there has been a massive transfer of wealth from working families to the top one-tenth of 1 percent? Trillions of dollars in the last 30 years have flowed from the middle class to the top one-tenth of 1 percent. And the American people say, ‘No, that’s not right.’ ” -Bernie the millionaire
they're functionally the same in the context of the conversation

and yes, bernie the millionaire wants to drastically increase taxes on millionaires to pay for things like education and healthcare. thats not the same as having the state take over all industry/business ergo pure socialism

[ChumpDumper]

Agree about not researching, but not about listening to Bernie and deciding based on his position. I don't think they'll look at him at all outside of maybe a debate.:lol we agree again

[DMC]

Do you have a problem with people keeping proceeds of their book sales?


they're functionally the same in the context of the conversation

and yes, bernie the millionaire wants to drastically increase taxes on millionaires to pay for things like education and healthcare. thats not the same as having the state take over all industry/business ergo pure socialism

You're the one who asked if anyone had a problem with it. You could have used "Has anyone blown a gasket over it" or "is anyone angry about it" or "is anyone upset about it" but you didn't. If it's all the same, why do you keep ratcheting up the drama? Do you need to paint your opponent as out of control just to try to make a point?

Bernie is a hypocrite. What's hard to understand about someone who spent their life bitching about millionaires then they become one?

[spurraider21]

You're the one who asked if anyone had a problem with it. You could have used "Has anyone blown a gasket over it" or "is anyone angry about it" or "is anyone upset about it" but you didn't. If it's all the same, why do you keep ratcheting up the drama? Do you need to paint your opponent as out of control just to try to make a point?

Bernie is a hypocrite. What's hard to understand about someone who spent their life bitching about millionaires then they become one?
my point was there irrespective of how i categorized it. you said you had a problem with it. whether i left it or that, called it anger, or blowing a gasket, or whatever doesnt change the underlying point that he has never called for pure socialism and that none of his policy positions contradict his ability to make money off his book

[ChumpDumper]

You're the one who asked if anyone had a problem with it. You could have used "Has anyone blown a gasket over it" or "is anyone angry about it" or "is anyone upset about it" but you didn't. If it's all the same, why do you keep ratcheting up the drama? Do you need to paint your opponent as out of control just to try to make a point?

Bernie is a hypocrite. What's hard to understand about someone who spent their life bitching about millionaires then they become one?If he's willing to tax himself like the other millionaires I don't see that big a problem there tbh. Can invoke FDR.

[DMC]

Bernie's not being an actual member of the Democratic party is an issue and has been before.

I've said this.

The average voter isn't going to even do your lazy research into terms that barely mean anything in US politics. They'll look at Bernie's positions, listen to his words and see if they like them. Especially his call for a government takeover of the publishing industry you insist he must be advocating.


:lol we agree again

They won't look at his position. They'll hear "socialist" and assume to know his position. We're talking about the average voter (much like the average poster here)

Differentiate "look at his position" from "listen to his words" in a way that doesn't include research.

[spurraider21]

They won't look at his position. They'll hear "socialist" and assume to know his position. We're talking about the average voter (much like the average poster here)

Differentiate "look at his position" from "listen to his words" in a way that doesn't include research.
you haven't shown to be much different from the average voter in that regard :lol

[ChumpDumper]

They won't look at his position. They'll hear "socialist" and assume to know his position. We're talking about the average voter (much like the average poster here)

Differentiate "look at his position" from "listen to his words" in a way that doesn't include research.Don't need to. Both can be done taking in a debate or a political ad.

[DMC]

you haven't shown to be much different from the average voter in that regard :lol

Again, how would you know? You can answer that (2nd time I asked) or cherry pick Chump's post to jump in on.

[spurraider21]

Again, how would you know? You can answer that (2nd time I asked) or cherry pick Chump's post to jump in on.
i wasn't aware those posts were private messages to chump

[spurraider21]

Socialist relying on capitalism? Ya I have a problem with it.
here's your first post on the subject which shows you just hear socialism and assume his policies

you assumed he is against the idea of profiting off private enterprises because SOCIALIST. if you actually knew his positions instead of just hearing "socialist" and assuming the rest, you wouldn't find any issue with him benefitting from capitalism

[ChumpDumper]

Man, DMC's reaction was exactly that of the average voter, according to him.

[DMC]

Don't need to. Both can be done taking in a debate or a political ad.

My point is that the "socialist" handle isn't a bonus for Bernie. It still invokes negative connotations outside the academia and urban professional settings, especially with whites.

[DMC]

here's your first post on the subject which shows you just hear socialism and assume his policies

you assumed he is against the idea of profiting off private enterprises because SOCIALIST. if you actually knew his positions instead of just hearing "socialist" and assuming the rest, you wouldn't find any issue with him benefitting from capitalism

Where did I blow the gasket or become angry or upset? You're changing the subject. I used the same words you used - for a reason.

I am not the only one who would assume his policies since he self identifies as a socialist. It's his choice to do so and his history from the start has been socialism.

[ChumpDumper]

My point is that the "socialist" handle isn't a bonus for Bernie. It still invokes negative connotations outside the academia and urban professional settings, especially with whites.No one argued it doesn't, and that has nothing to do with the Democratic Socialist/Social Democrat discussion.

[spurraider21]

Where did I blow the gasket or become angry or upset? You're changing the subject. I used the same words you used - for a reason.

my point was there irrespective of how i categorized it. you said you had a problem with it. whether i left it or that, called it anger, or blowing a gasket, or whatever doesnt change the underlying point that he has never called for pure socialism and that none of his policy positions contradict his ability to make money off his book


I am not the only one who would assume his policies since he self identifies as a socialist. It's his choice to do so and his history from the start has been socialism.
i didnt say you're the only one. in fact i literally said you aren't very different from the average voters you were just talking about :lol

[DMC]

No one argued it doesn't, and that has nothing to do with the Democratic Socialist/Social Democrat discussion.

"Sanders is not a typical socialist. Sure, he believes in a highly regulated and heavily taxed private enterprise, but he does not seem to want the state to own banks and make cars. Considering the negative connotations of “socialism” in America, it is a bit of a puzzle why Sanders insists on using that word. It would be much less contentious and more correct if he gave his worldview its proper name: not “democratic socialism,” which implies socialism brought about through a vote, but social democracy." -The Atlantic

So yes, it does.

[DMC]

i didnt say you're the only one. in fact i literally said you aren't very different from the average voters you were just talking about :lol


How do you know anything about my voting or research?

Simple answer is you don't. Now keep up.

[spurraider21]

Red herring
:lmao literally addressing your post directly is a red herring?

for fucks sake

[ChumpDumper]

"Sanders is not a typical socialist. Sure, he believes in a highly regulated and heavily taxed private enterprise, but he does not seem to want the state to own banks and make cars. Considering the negative connotations of “socialism” in America, it is a bit of a puzzle why Sanders insists on using that word. It would be much less contentious and more correct if he gave his worldview its proper name: not “democratic socialism,” which implies socialism brought about through a vote, but social democracy." -The Atlantic

So yes, it does.:lol

No, it doesn't. You proved it. Your whole argument was that Bernie is actually a Social Democrat who calls himself a Democratic Socialist. If he did declare himself a Social Democrat he still wouldn't be in the Democratic Party and still would have the socialist label.

Nothing would change.

"Not a typical socialist" is still a socialist.

[DMC]

- bernie is a socialist!

i show that he isn't actually a socialist because he's not trying to have the state control all industry

- but bernie calls himself a socialist!

and yet that doesnt invalidate the 2nd line of this post...


:lol

No, it doesn't. You proved it. Your whole argument was that Bernie is actually a Social Democrat who calls himself a Democratic Socialist. If he did declare himself a Social Democrat he still wouldn't be in the Democratic Party and still would have the socialist label.

Nothing would change.

"Not a typical socialist" is still a socialist.

Sounds like you two need to have a pow wow.

He won't have a chance as a socialist.

[ChumpDumper]

Sounds like you two need to have a pow wow.

He won't have a chance as a socialist.Again, you're building a straw man. We were never arguing about his chances in a general election.

[DMC]

Again, you're building a straw man. We were never arguing about his chances in a general election.

If capitalism is so bad, why does Bernie accepts its fruits?

[spurraider21]

Another strawman

[TheGreatYacht]

Another strawman

Back to square one :lol

[DMC]

Another strawman

No it's not.

See how that works, we are now at an impasse. You still haven't responded to how you know anything about what I research. You just feel obliged to interject when I wasn't talking to you.

:lol ST Avengers

At least Chumpy is trying to have a discussion.

[CosmicCowboy]

Bernie was hot tubbing in Russia while they were shooting people trying to escape over the Berlin wall.

[spurraider21]

No it's not.

See how that works, we are now at an impasse. You still haven't responded to how you know anything about what I research. You just feel obliged to interject when I wasn't talking to you.

:lol ST Avengers

At least Chumpy is trying to have a discussion.
The premise that “capitalism is bad” is a strawman

[ChumpDumper]

If capitalism is so bad, why does Bernie accepts its fruits?Once again, you have built an all-or-nothing straw man. You think he's a hypocrite because you think he wants the government to control the publishing industry.

It's cute that you keep trying, but there's nothing to your argument.

[DMC]

The premise that “capitalism is bad” is a strawman

You're splitting hairs. Let me save some time. I'm going to show you a quote from Bernie where he bashes the effects of capitalism and you're going to say that's not saying capitalism is bad, and point out the negative effects are caused by abuse of capitalism, not capitalism itself.

So to skip that, Bernie isn't a capitalist. Quite the opposite. Bernie's seemed approach is "my wealth good, your wealth bad". His comments about how he made money on his books, and won't feel bad about it could be used by anyone who's made even billions. Does Bernie have a stopping point, like if he made 200 million from book sales would that still be ok?

So yeah. What I said. Strawman that.

[ChumpDumper]

I guess you can point out where he says he wants government to control all business.

That will help.

[DMC]

Once again, you have built an all-or-nothing straw man. You think he's a hypocrite because you think he wants the government to control the publishing industry.

It's cute that you keep trying, but there's nothing to your argument.

You're cherry picking the publishing industry because that's where Bernie made his money. How about the Newhouse family who made billions from publishing newspapers and magazines? Are they exempt from Bernie's wrath? Where's the cutoff? J.K Rowling is a billionaire because she wrote some books that someone wanted to buy. Is she exempt?

[ChumpDumper]

You're cherry picking the publishing industry because that's where Bernie made his money. How about the Newhouse family who made billions from publishing newspapers and magazines? Are they exempt from Bernie's wrath? Where's the cutoff?You tell us.

[DMC]

You tell us.

Bernie Sanders harshly criticized the wealth of US senators during his first campaign for office in 1971, calling it "immoral" that half the members of the Senate were millionaires.

So is Bernie now immoral?

[ChumpDumper]

Bernie Sanders harshly criticized the wealth of US senators during his first campaign for office in 1971, calling it "immoral" that half the members of the Senate were millionaires.

So is Bernie now immoral?Ask him.

[DMC]

I think I made my point. While some of you are more than willing to pretend there's no double standard with Bernie, there certainly is, and even Bernie wants to profit from his own work. Spin that how you like, pretend socialism isn't about wealth redistribution or whatever else helps you get through. Bernie is a fraud. I think even the DNC knows this.

[ChumpDumper]

I think I made my point. While some of you are more than willing to pretend there's no double standard with Bernie, there certainly is, and even Bernie wants to profit from his own work. Spin that how you like, pretend socialism isn't about wealth redistribution or whatever else helps you get through. Bernie is a fraud. I think even the DNC knows this.:lol I don't even like Bernie all that much. Your point is your found a candidate for president to be a hypocrite.

Bravo.

You would probably be able to find some moral failures in the current president if you, you know, tried.

[TheGreatYacht]

Bernie is a fraud. I think even the DNC knows this.

Establishment Democrats (Pelosi, Schumer, Biden, etc.) good now :lol

I think exposing DMC's strawman puritanical arguments is making him hate Bernie even more :lol

[pgardn]

:lol I don't even like Bernie all that much. Your point is your found a candidate for president to be a hypocrite.

Bravo.

You would probably be able to find some moral failures in the current president if you, you know, tried.

Thats a tough ask.

[DMC]

:lol I don't even like Bernie all that much. Your point is your found a candidate for president to be a hypocrite.

Bravo.

You would probably be able to find some moral failures in the current president if you, you know, tried.

I'm not much on moral judgement but I didn't vote for him and won't next time either. I'm undecided but I know who I won't vote for. I don't think Bernie's issue is a moral one, I just think he's not the answer to anything other than "How do I spend this 90 trillion?"

[DMC]

Thats a tough ask.

He wasn't asking you, Gina.

[DMC]

Establishment Democrats (Pelosi, Schumer, Biden, etc.) good now :lol

I think exposing DMC's strawman puritanical arguments is making him hate Bernie even more :lol

Can you find an anti-Semite video about it?

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not much on moral judgement but I didn't vote for him and won't next time either. I'm undecided but I know who I won't vote for. I don't think Bernie's issue is a moral one, I just think he's not the answer to anything other than "How do I spend this 90 trillion?"Meh, I'd vote for him instead of Trump. There's not much chance his agenda would be enacted and Trump is running up the debt even faster than I thought he would.

[DMC]

Meh, I'd vote for him instead of Trump. There's not much chance his agenda would be enacted and Trump is running up the debt even faster than I thought he would.

I picked Biden before he even announced. We'll see how it shakes out though.

[spurraider21]

The notion that Bernie is holding himself to a double standard because he made money in the private sector is predicated on the notion the Bernie is opposed to people making money in the private sector

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1219088671984373761?s=19

[DMC]

The notion that Bernie is holding himself to a double standard because he made money in the private sector is predicated on the notion the Bernie is opposed to people making money in the private sector

If you say so.

[Isitjustme?]

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1219088671984373761?s=19

Who you think the Democrats should pick Chris?

[ChumpDumper]

Who you think the Democrats should pick Chris?Yeah, let us know who the biggest Satanist baby-eaters are so we can support them.

[Chris]

Who you think the Democrats should pick Chris?

Trump

[AaronY]

Trump
You're a very serious person Chris.

[Isitjustme?]

Trump

You think Trump could make it through the Democratic primaries?

[Chris]

You're a very serious person Chris.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-13-2016/FpFKiE.gif

[FrostKing]

5 years in supporting the Republican Party

I still do not connect with the Democrats I voted for in 2008, 2004, etc. I dunno if Bernie will win but i would like to see him try....

[AaronY]

5 years in supporting the Republican Party

I still do not connect with the Democrats I voted for in 2008, 2004, etc. I dunno if Bernie will win but i would like to see him try....
Oh, ok.

[FrostKing]

Oh, ok.
Please stop loitering the political subforum

[spurraider21]

If you say so.
there's no double-standard, otherwise

[pgardn]

He wasn't asking you, Gina.

Oh.

So that was like, ankle biting?
So I too now know what contradictions feel like and what a mouthful of bones are in said anatomical feature.
Yummy.

[Reck]

Back to Bernie supporters...

They’re mad the NYT endorsed Warren and that boring twat Klobuchar.

MAH ESTABLISMEMENT

[koriwhat]

You are equating socialism with the most extreme forms of communism. There is not a single socialist in America who thinks all book publishing should be controlled by the state and that writers are not entitled to earnings.

This is what stupid people do when they can't argue like a moderately intelligent person. Perhaps you have been relating too much to your Avenger squad with koriwhat. :lol

It's always a great idea until implementation so stop trying to sugar coat it you commie!

[TheGreatYacht]

Bernie Dogpiled For Thoughtful Answer On Trump Voters

https://youtu.be/Y5m-6Nocq7Y

BOOM

[spurraider21]

what boom. what dogpile. all he refers to are what random people tweeted about bernie's comments.

the NYT endorsing somebody besides bernie = dogpiling? boom?

lol

[TheGreatYacht]

what boom. what dogpile. all he refers to are what random people tweeted about bernie's comments.

the NYT endorsing somebody besides bernie = dogpiling? boom?

lol

I'm talking about Bernie's response about Trump voters, not the YouTuber. NYT and the Dems don't like those truth bombs.

[pgardn]

I'm talking about Bernie's response about Trump voters, not the YouTuber. NYT and the Dems don't like those truth bombs.

The NYT let loose the truth bomb on your most vile enemy, Hillary Clinton.
All the other news outlets (MSM) sucked it up and so did you.
The Clinton Foundation.

But compared to the orange tornado, peanuts.

[AaronY]

lol good luck with that one guy

1219466882446655488

[DMC]

:lol Bernie always wanting a serious debate, but has no workable plan. We need a better country, we need better healthcare, we need better schools, colleges should be free to attend, student loan debt should be forgiven, etc..

Pretty sure we all know what we need but we are like those astronauts on the Apollo, we have to work with what we have. Could you imagine NASA saying "well we need an O2 scrubber up there, and we need a better way to exit and re-enter the atmosphere, and ..." "boom"

[spurraider21]

except he's advocating for things that other countries already do. nothing groundbreaking

[Isitjustme?]

except he's advocating for things that other countries already do. nothing groundbreaking


The U.S. has a fairly rightwing ethos tbh. Truman, JFK, and the Clintons all tried to introduce single payer or other public healthcare plans and failed. Its hard to get massive healthcare reform done here because you need to get 60 votes in the Senate.

[spurraider21]

The U.S. has a fairly rightwing ethos tbh. Truman, JFK, and the Clintons all tried to introduce single payer or other public healthcare plans and failed. Its hard to get massive healthcare reform done here because you need to get 60 votes in the Senate.
oh for sure. if somebody is saying bernie's plans are unrealistic because of the political reality of the senate, i'm with you. but DMC's critique (and tbh, what i hear more often than not) is that his ideas are unrealistic in that there is no real way to implement them, as if free college and healthcare is some bizarre pie in the sky theories that cant actually work

[Isitjustme?]

oh for sure. if somebody is saying bernie's plans are unrealistic because of the political reality of the senate, i'm with you. but DMC's critique (and tbh, what i hear more often than not) is that his ideas are unrealistic in that there is no real way to implement them, as if free college and healthcare is some bizarre pie in the sky theories that cant actually work

Yeah, I'm a progressive probably but progressives act like no one has ever tried to do massive public healthcare in the US history before them and its historically illiterate. Truman tried and they derided it as communism/socialism. Then they post videos of JFK talking about it doing it and pushing it and forget to read how he failed due to the same problems they are going to have. Lying to yourself about the challenges you face over here like some do is really not a good look. Look at all these attempts and failures Democrats experienced over the years beside Obamacare

https://www.history.com/news/harry-truman-universal-health-care
https://www.historynet.com/howls-of-socialism-killed-truman-health-insurance.htm
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2013/11/john-f-kennedys-health-care-failure-jfk-and-barack-obamas-tough-fights-to-reform-health-care.html
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.14.1.66

[DarrinS]

1219604563004678145

[spurraider21]

:lol

[boutons_deux]

Clinton faction STILL pissed at Bernie, probably blaming him for Hillary loss

'Nobody likes him' - Hillary Clinton bashes Bernie Sanders

Hillary Clinton criticized the campaign of her former Democratic presidential rival Bernie Sanders in a new documentary in which she says he was an ineffective U.S. senator who accomplished little because “nobody liked him.”

Sanders demonstrated “a pattern” in how his campaign attacked women rivals. :lol only women rivals? :lol

lingering bitterness toward Sanders

after he mounted an unexpected Democratic primary challenge to Clinton in 2016.

Clinton backers blame Sanders’ supporters for tarnishing her with vitriolic criticism

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-clinton/nobody-likes-him-hillary-clinton-bashes-bernie-sanders-idUSKBN1ZK233?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-clinton/nobody-likes-him-hillary-clinton-bashes-bernie-sanders-idUSKBN1ZK233?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews)

[baseline bum]

Fucking Clinton still can't put any blame on herself for blowing the election against the most corrupt and unqualified POS to ever get nominated. When this is the kind of crap we hear from the Democratic establishment it really makes me fear we're getting another four years of our Dear Leader.

[ChumpDumper]

Fucking Clinton still can't put any blame on herself for blowing the election against the most corrupt and unqualified POS to ever get nominated. When this is the kind of crap we hear from the Democratic establishment it really makes me fear we're getting another four years of our Dear Leader.Right? Now ain't the time.

[boutons_deux]

Right? Now ain't the time.

self-preserving Dem establishment would rather lose to Trash to maintain the status quo of their power and jobs,

than win with Bernie/Liz, both of whom would clean out the Dem establishment shit pile

[Reck]

What power you fucking loon?

[spurraider21]

What power you fucking loon?
power over the party. leadership seats, etc.

you dont think the pelosi/schumer group is concerned by the rise of sanders/AOC and the like? it threatens them for sure

[Reck]

power over the party. leadership seats, etc.

you dont think the pelosi/schumer group is concerned by the rise of sanders/AOC and the like? it threatens them for sure

I like watching Schumer trying but failing where Pelosi does her thing.

I can see a case being made for the House and Pelosi but the senate is where it counts and they don’t hold shit over there.

[ChumpDumper]

Bernie isn't a Democrat.

[spurraider21]

I like watching Schumer trying but failing where Pelosi does her thing.

I can see a case being made for the House and Pelosi but the senate is where it counts and they don’t hold shit over there.
well, schumer is in the minority while pelosi is in the majority

[Chucho]

power over the party. leadership seats, etc.

you dont think the pelosi/schumer group is concerned by the rise of sanders/AOC and the like? it threatens them for sure

Yup. You can crackdown on establishment politicians by not allowing them to establish themselves. Term limits should be imposed on all Federal offices.

[spurraider21]

Yup. You can crackdown on establishment politicians by not allowing them to establish themselves. Term limits should be imposed on all Federal offices.
i like the concept of term limits, but there also is value in experience. i like when presidential candidates have substantial experience in government... and short term limits would also cut the credentials of future candidates.

so i think they should be reasonably long in congress. but as of 2006, there were 224 people that have sat in congress for over 30 years. thats excessive

[TheGreatYacht]

MSNBC Uses Crank Pseudoscience To Attack Bernie

https://youtu.be/GBjKzhywpoQ

[DMC]

except he's advocating for things that other countries already do. nothing groundbreaking

Maybe you didn't read my comments correctly or you're intentionally misrepresenting what I said yet again. I didn't mention anything about him doing anything groundbreaking. My comment was that he's only telling us what we need not how he's going to get there. Any one of us can point out what we need. I guess electing him is how we get there? Most people don't think so. If everything he asked for was free I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. It's not free.

[DMC]

oh for sure. if somebody is saying bernie's plans are unrealistic because of the political reality of the senate, i'm with you. but DMC's critique (and tbh, what i hear more often than not) is that his ideas are unrealistic in that there is no real way to implement them, as if free college and healthcare is some bizarre pie in the sky theories that cant actually work

That's exactly what it is. It's all pie in the sky. What makes you think free healthcare and free college would work? How many people do you know who work in healthcare who would work for the federal government or want to be tied to some low payment option where they see a thousand patients a week for a tenth of the price they get now? What about free legal? Do you want to work for a government salary?

I mean your buddy there talks about how expensive his services are , what if his services were free to everyone and he just got a base salary from the federal government? How much would you want him representing you?

[Chris]

Bernie isn't a Democrat.

What is he?

[DMC]

What is he?

You're going to get argument no matter what you say he is. He claims to be a Democratic Socialist. Others claim him to be a social Democrat. It's funny how people keep ignoring the elephant in the room.

[Chris]

You're going to get argument no matter what you say he is. He claims to be a Democratic Socialist. Others claim him to be a social Democrat. It's funny how people keep ignoring the elephant in the room.

Chump trying to wash his hands and disown Bernie is pretty funny :lol

[ChumpDumper]

What is he?Independent since 1978.

:lmao low information Qhris

[ChumpDumper]

You're going to get argument no matter what you say he is. He claims to be a Democratic Socialist. Others claim him to be a social Democrat. It's funny how people keep ignoring the elephant in the room.It's funny how no one has ignored it at all yet you keep trying to take on det straw man.

[Reck]

What is he?

Democratic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29) (2015–2016; 2019–present)[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders#cite_note-:18-1)
Independent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_politician) (Congressional affiliation, until 1969; 1978–present)

:lol conveniently switching to dem when he decided to run, switches back in between 2017-2019 and is back to being a democrat.

That is what chump means.

[RD2191]

That's exactly what it is. It's all pie in the sky. What makes you think free healthcare and free college would work? How many people do you know who work in healthcare who would work for the federal government or want to be tied to some low payment option where they see a thousand patients a week for a tenth of the price they get now? What about free legal? Do you want to work for a government salary?

I mean your buddy there talks about how expensive his services are , what if his services were free to everyone and he just got a base salary from the federal government? How much would you want him representing you?

I mean, people enroll in the military knowing they could die in combat all for a chance at a better life.

[spurraider21]

That's exactly what it is. It's all pie in the sky. What makes you think free healthcare and free college would work? How many people do you know who work in healthcare who would work for the federal government or want to be tied to some low payment option where they see a thousand patients a week for a tenth of the price they get now? What about free legal? Do you want to work for a government salary?

I mean your buddy there talks about how expensive his services are , what if his services were free to everyone and he just got a base salary from the federal government? How much would you want him representing you?
other countries have free college and government provided healthcare and it works for them. not system is without flaws, but we see those in effect and those countries have much lower per capita cost for healthcare than we do. the fact that its been done elsewhere successfully is where i get the basis that it would work

[AaronY]

Yup. You can crackdown on establishment politicians by not allowing them to establish themselves. Term limits should be imposed on all Federal offices.
Lol Pelosi/Schumer are the only thing holding this party together. Progressives would take over and try to get a majority by running socialists in purple and red states. Then we would be spending the next 15-20 years going "Well we know socialists can win in West Virginia and Montana but we just haven't found the actual right socialist yet" before realizing that having a broad coalition and making incremental gains is the way to go

Also AOC would get recked hardcore by Schumer if she tried to primary him. I don't think even she is stupid enough to do that

[TheGreatYacht]

Lol Pelosi/Schumer are the only thing holding this party together.

Also AOC would get recked hardcore by Schumer if she tried to primary him. I don't think even she is stupid enough to do that

:lol you are delusional

[SpursforSix]

I wrote a poem or maybe it's a rap song for Bernie

Don't call him Ernie
cuz he ain't no muppet
stick his hand in yo ass
and treat you like a puppet

Sanders in da house (ooooohhhh oohhhhh)
motherfuckin Sanders in da house (yeahhhhh)

His name is Sanders
But he ain't no colonel
He's da candidate
springin' hopes eternal

Bernie in da house (oooooohhh ohhhh)
Skeet skeet skeet (boiiiiiiii)

That's all I have right now

[Reck]

:lol you are delusional

Which part?

AOC has a small coalition right now. No way can she win a state wide senate race right now.

[TheGreatYacht]

Bernie Ad Invokes Legacy Of JFK, MLK & FDR

https://youtu.be/no00PREyH28

[AaronY]

Which part?

AOC has a small coalition right now. No way can she win a state wide senate race right now.
Someone here posted last week how Crowley destroyed her among blacks and Latinos in the primaries and there's large blocks of moderates in those groups there not to mention what would happen to her upstate. Heck despite Berners' constant gaslighting Biden also leads among Hispanics :lol Did you know that?

This page is good for cutting through the bullshit. He is also tied for the lead among white, and leads 52-13 in blacks. If you click on biden's face and go to his page he also leads among people who make less $50k too has a big lead among women lol. Broadest coalition my ass

https://projects.economist.com/democratic-primaries-2020/

[Chucho]

That's exactly what it is. It's all pie in the sky. What makes you think free healthcare and free college would work? How many people do you know who work in healthcare who would work for the federal government or want to be tied to some low payment option where they see a thousand patients a week for a tenth of the price they get now? What about free legal? Do you want to work for a government salary?

I mean your buddy there talks about how expensive his services are , what if his services were free to everyone and he just got a base salary from the federal government? How much would you want him representing you?

True. There's a network of over 35k Doctors that refused to allow the insurance companies to essentially run their practices. They refuse to accept most insurances and pick and choose which patients they decide to see and run their practices essentially on a cash basis.

Nobody goes to school for years to make less or be told how to run their practice. Government regulation to dramatically lower the costs of medical supplies and devices that are price gouged is the logical, simple and cheapest way to go, but Congress loves their lobbyists, so we'll keep on hoping and arguing over a legitimate solution for a 1st world country that is 3x larger than the next largest 1st world country.

[spurraider21]

752895261807116288

781214254351446016

[Reck]

752895261807116288

781214254351446016

Lip service. Just like when Bernie did a few half assed rallies for her. I'd tell her to shut the fuck up but she's a private citizen and can say whatever her irrelevant ass wants to say.

[AaronY]

just made a meme lol


https://i.imgur.com/fM7ojhT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bImb6S1.jpg


https://projects.economist.com/democratic-primaries-2020/candidate/joe-biden/

[DMC]

I mean, people enroll in the military knowing they could die in combat all for a chance at a better life.

Rarely after 6 years or more of college. They also don't "enroll", they enlist. :lol

[DMC]

other countries have free college and government provided healthcare and it works for them. not system is without flaws, but we see those in effect and those countries have much lower per capita cost for healthcare than we do. the fact that its been done elsewhere successfully is where i get the basis that it would work

Where?

[Winehole23]

What is he?He's what Europeans would call a social democrat.

To European socialists, that's a dirty word. It signifies the bourgeois counter-revolutionary bargain with capitalism that leaves it fully intact, but adds a robust safety net and gives labor a seat at the master's table.

[Winehole23]

Where?
Damn, you're lazy

[DMC]

It's funny how no one has ignored it at all yet you keep trying to take on det straw man.

Really? You insisting Bernie isn't a democrat. Bernie on the Dem ticket. You insisting Bernie isn't a socialist, but Bernie says he's a democratic socialist. No one wants to claim Bernie (except AaronY).

The socialist things scares the left more than the right. The right uses it as a weapon, but the left winces anytime Bernie or that big eyed psycho AOC mentions the word. It's almost as toxic as "take ur guns".

[TheGreatYacht]

Where?

Canada, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, UK, Finland, Ireland, Iceland, etc...

[DMC]

Damn, you're lazy

"there are countries"

Ok who?

[DMC]

Canada, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, UK, Finland, Ireland, Iceland, etc...

Canada healthcare isn't free. If you work for a living, you pay a substantial amount in taxes. Same with the other countries you mentioned. Show me the country with free healthcare.

https://factsmachine-production.s3.amazonaws.com/i/19580/finland-personal-income-tax-rate-1995-2018-data-calendar_jpeg_thumb.jpg

[DMC]

Universal HC isn't free.

Same goes for college. Nothing is free. Someone has to pay. I could take the extra income tax percentage I save by being in the US and pay for both my HC and college no problem. Ah but that's not the issue. The issue is getting the heathcare at no charge, for people who never paid into the system. That's where I say "not interested".

[TheGreatYacht]

Canada healthcare isn't free. If you work for a living, you pay a substantial amount in taxes. Same with the other countries you mentioned. Show me the country with free healthcare.

https://factsmachine-production.s3.amazonaws.com/i/19580/finland-personal-income-tax-rate-1995-2018-data-calendar_jpeg_thumb.jpg

Everyone knows it's not really free :lol

Raise taxes on the millionaires and billionaires. Make corporations pay their share too :tu

[Reck]

Canada healthcare isn't free. If you work for a living, you pay a substantial amount in taxes. Same with the other countries you mentioned. Show me the country with free healthcare.

https://factsmachine-production.s3.amazonaws.com/i/19580/finland-personal-income-tax-rate-1995-2018-data-calendar_jpeg_thumb.jpg

So healthcare is lumped into the tax you pay? Here you work, pay taxes and still have to pay for healthcare. Looks like an upgrade to me.

[DMC]

Everyone knows it's not really free :lol

Raise taxes on the millionaires and billionaires. Make corporations pay their share too :tu

That's not what these other countries did. Don't tout other countries only when it suits your needs.

[TheGreatYacht]

Oh and end all the Zionist wars in the middle east. Cut the military budget in half.

[AaronY]

just made a meme lol


https://i.imgur.com/fM7ojhT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bImb6S1.jpg


https://projects.economist.com/democratic-primaries-2020/candidate/joe-biden/
Bumping this meme for all those who didnt get to see it in all its glory on the previous page. looks like a 2 to 1 lead almost imo tbh

[DMC]

So healthcare is lumped into the tax you pay? Here you work, pay taxes and still have to pay for healthcare. Looks like an upgrade to me.

If 25+ % of your income is required to cover your health insurance, you need the free education.

[DMC]

Oh and end all the Zionist wars in the middle east. Cut the military budget in half.

Definitely a Bernie bro response. Just make things better. Problem solved.

[TheGreatYacht]

Definitely a Bernie bro response. Just make things better. Problem solved.

Solutions are VERY easy to pinpoint and could be fixed if you're not bought and paid for by the Jewish lobbies, military industrial complex, private health insurances, big pharma and big oil.

[spurraider21]

Where?
free at the point of care. obviously it would be paid through taxes. but anybody would be able to see a doctor, go to a hospital without worrying about getting stuck with a bill, a deductible, or a co-pay. would by default would be at lower cost per person because you no longer have the middleman insurance company getting their slice. sure, you'd have to have more government administrative employees replacing administrative staff at private insurance companies, but there no longer is the need for profits to appease shareholders, exorbitant executive salaries/bonuses, etc.

same with college tuition. yes, you pay in through increased taxes. but no tuition. so its not like you're suddenly paying a tuition's worth of taxes right after you enroll. its all paid in by the entire taxpayer base.

thats why i say "this has been done before." sanders isn't literally arguing that these services will cost no money, he has acknowledged that it will be funded by tax hikes. its a similar model to what those other countries identified to you have done. you can disagree that its good or bad policy... but its not some fairy tale solution with no basis in reality. we've seen those programs implemented elsewhere and its fine.

now, some other policies like federal min wage being set at $15? i think thats much more unrealistic.

[DMC]

free at the point of care. obviously it would be paid through taxes. but anybody would be able to see a doctor, go to a hospital without worrying about getting stuck with a bill, a deductible, or a co-pay. would by default would be at lower cost per person because you no longer have the middleman insurance company getting their slice. sure, you'd have to have more government administrative employees replacing administrative staff at private insurance companies, but there no longer is the need for profits to appease shareholders, exorbitant executive salaries/bonuses, etc.

same with college tuition. yes, you pay in through increased taxes. but no tuition. so its not like you're suddenly paying a tuition's worth of taxes right after you enroll. its all paid in by the entire taxpayer base.

thats why i say "this has been done before." sanders isn't literally arguing that these services will cost no money, he has acknowledged that it will be funded by tax hikes. its a similar model to what those other countries identified to you have done. you can disagree that its good or bad policy... but its not some fairy tale solution with no basis in reality. we've seen those programs implemented elsewhere and its fine.

now, some other policies like federal min wage being set at $15? i think thats much more unrealistic.

:lol My lawncare is free at the point of care since I pay monthly.

Do you want to address the "free legal" angle? I mean, wealth is bad unless it's your wealth, right?

[CosmicCowboy]

Canada, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, UK, Finland, Ireland, Iceland, etc...

Fucking racist. Picking all those original nordic/Anglo saxon white people countries.

[spurraider21]

:lol My lawncare is free at the point of care since I pay monthly.
:rolleyes

you cant be kicked off your healthcare under a medicare for all system. if you stop paying your gardener, he'll stop showing up.


Do you want to address the "free legal" angle? I mean, wealth is bad unless it's your wealth, right?
what is the "free legal" angle?

[DMC]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2018/06/11/canadians-are-one-in-a-million-while-waiting-for-medical-treatment/#696ea3313e7d

Canada's single-payer healthcare system forced over 1 million patients to wait for necessary medical treatments last year. That's an all-time record.

Those long wait times were more than just a nuisance; they cost patients $1.9 billion in lost wages, according to a new report by the Fraser Institute, a Vancouver-based think-tank.

Lengthy treatment delays are the norm in Canada and other single-payer nations, which ration care to keep costs down. Yet more and more Democratic leaders are pushing for a single-payer system -- and more and more voters are clamoring for one.

[spurraider21]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2018/06/11/canadians-are-one-in-a-million-while-waiting-for-medical-treatment/#696ea3313e7d

Canada's single-payer healthcare system forced over 1 million patients to wait for necessary medical treatments last year. That's an all-time record.

Those long wait times were more than just a nuisance; they cost patients $1.9 billion in lost wages, according to a new report by the Fraser Institute, a Vancouver-based think-tank.

Lengthy treatment delays are the norm in Canada and other single-payer nations, which ration care to keep costs down. Yet more and more Democratic leaders are pushing for a single-payer system -- and more and more voters are clamoring for one.


other countries have free college and government provided healthcare and it works for them. no system is without flaws, but we see those in effect and those countries have much lower per capita cost for healthcare than we do. the fact that its been done elsewhere successfully is where i get the basis that it would work
yes. canadian health care has its flaws. so does the UK's. and germany's. and france's. and the US. there isn't a perfect system that we know if. but nobody said we have to copy any one country's model 100%.

there are a lot of factors that go into wait times... including amount of hospital space, ratio of how many doctors there are to patients needing help, geographic distance between patients and treatment facilities, etc.

but yes an opinion piece written by the president of a conservative think tank is certainly going to be persuasive

[spurraider21]

if you want to get into the pros and cons of universal healthcare we can have that discussion. right now 2/3 of people in the US who file bk do so because of medical/healthcare related reasons. i think thats rather retarded in a successful first-world country

my initial point in this discussion was that its not some radical concept bernie is just making up off the top of his head that cant reasonably be put into effect. we see it working elsewhere. certainly with its bumps. our system isn't immune to bumps.

[DMC]

if you want to get into the pros and cons of universal healthcare we can have that discussion. right now 2/3 of people in the US who file bk do so because of medical/healthcare related reasons. i think thats rather retarded in a successful first-world country

my initial point in this discussion was that its not some radical concept that cant work. we see it working elsewhere. certainly with its bumps. our system isn't immune to bumps.

But no system is without flaws.

[spurraider21]

But no system is without flaws.
agreed.

i think having 2/3 of bk's being tied to medical costs is a huge flaw in any system. i think deductibles that prevent people from seeking care is a huge flaw. i think inflated costs resulting from the insurance companies' need to make exorbitant profits is a huge flaw. so are long wait times.

but i would say the system that leaves tens of millions of people uninsured, even more people underinsured with deductibles they cant afford, and one where we pay substantially more for the same services per capita than just about any other developed country is one that needs to be overhauled, not just tweaked

average premiums and deductibles are still rising year by year. the current administration's only solution so far has been to remove the mandate penalty. so basically the solution is that if health insurance is too expensive just dont buy it. brilliant.

[ElNono]

Fucking Clinton still can't put any blame on herself for blowing the election against the most corrupt and unqualified POS to ever get nominated. When this is the kind of crap we hear from the Democratic establishment it really makes me fear we're getting another four years of our Dear Leader.

Just glad she isn't running. It would be way better if she would just STFU.

[ElNono]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2018/06/11/canadians-are-one-in-a-million-while-waiting-for-medical-treatment/#696ea3313e7d

Canada's single-payer healthcare system forced over 1 million patients to wait for necessary medical treatments last year. That's an all-time record.

Those long wait times were more than just a nuisance; they cost patients $1.9 billion in lost wages, according to a new report by the Fraser Institute, a Vancouver-based think-tank.

Lengthy treatment delays are the norm in Canada and other single-payer nations, which ration care to keep costs down. Yet more and more Democratic leaders are pushing for a single-payer system -- and more and more voters are clamoring for one.

How many patients had to 'wait for necessary medical treatments' in the the US because they can't afford healthcare at all? How much it costs in emergency room visits?

The US has had defacto rationing forever, it's just masqueraded behind economic have and have nots.

[Reck]

Just glad she isn't running. It would be way better if she would just STFU.

I don’t get this position. I get you don’t like her or Biden or whatever but to say she needs to shut up it’s a stretch. It’s a jungle out here. She can say any stupid shit she wants. Doesn’t stop the rest of us from doing the same, imo.

[ElNono]

I don’t get this position. I get you don’t like her or Biden or whatever but to say she needs to shut up it’s a stretch. It’s a jungle out here. She can say any stupid shit she wants. Doesn’t stop the rest of us from doing the same, imo.

No she does not when she was the last Democratic standard-bearer, cheated and on top of that lost in an embarrassing fashion. She's completely out of touch, and as somebody being a prominent face of a party, she does damage whenever she continually says dumb things instead of owning up she was a terrible, unlikeable candidate.

And because her ego will never allow her to admit to that, she just needs to shut the fuck up. Stop talking for the people she does NOT represent.

[baseline bum]

Just glad she isn't running. It would be way better if she would just STFU.

She's fucking metastatic.