Stein: Chatter Circulating About The Spurs' Attempts To "Barge" Their Way Into Simmons Sweepstakes

[CGD]

The trade works financially, according to Trade NBA, because Philly would be taking Murray, Walker, and Smith. I think 3 firsts would seal the deal, with only two coming from the Spurs. That's not a lot to give up in my opinion. With the Bulls 2025 pick, the Spurs would really only be out of 1 first rounder.

It’s a little rich for me given the leverage/dynamics right now. Maybe Minni offers better pick capital, but they aren’t sending a player back now thar helps Joel. Who else is offering more tbh?

At least protect the picks if you’re the Spurs.

[CGD]

Either swap out Walker for Hutch or turn that 24 pick into the Chicago pick.

This. Id favor worse of CHI or SAS pick in 2025 type of thing.

[Chinook]

This. Id favor worse of CHI or SAS pick in 2025 type of thing.

I'd rather give up a better pick from Chicago and let the Spurs keep their natural picks unencumbered. The point of the change would be so SA could trade their picks with only Stepien restriction as soon as next summer. If they're going to trade for Simmons, they need to be prepared to make moves to capitalize on having him. They can't do that if they're locked out of trading picks until 2026 at the soonest.

[Mr. Body]

He's owed big time money and yeah he's young, but not that young. He's hitting that age where he is what he is.
His flaw is huge, can't shoot. Either it shots outside the lane or free throw. It's not only he can't shoot, but in addition he won't even try. At 25 I'm not sure how much better he's going to get.

He reminds me of a middle infielder who suddenly has trouble throwing to 1st. It's not easily correctable

I'd say no
Of course I don't think the Spurs have a good offer

The Spurs haven't offered anything because they're way smarter than the people in this thread, but you're right otherwise: you'd need to take on assets to take Simmons' salary. This thread is a continued source of hilarity, however.

[talkspurs]

I'd rather give up a better pick from Chicago and let the Spurs keep their natural picks unencumbered. The point of the change would be so SA could trade their picks with only Stepien restriction as soon as next summer. If they're going to trade for Simmons, they need to be prepared to make moves to capitalize on having him. They can't do that if they're locked out of trading picks until 2026 at the soonest.

You only need to have a first rd pick it does not have to be your first rd pick.

[FutureMan]

This team needs to be collecting picks. Not giving them away.

Why trade for a former 1st pick when we might be getting a few of our own with the roster we have now haha

Even with Simmons this team is years away. Why risk giving up a potential franchise player when you’d need to get another one if you traded for Simmons, who is clearly not one?

[Chinook]

You only need to have a first rd pick it does not have to be your first rd pick.

No. You need to have a guaranteed first-round pick. For Stepien purposes, the Bulls pick doesn't mean anything. If the Bulls pick was unprotected, then it would count.

[talkspurs]

No. You need to have a guaranteed first-round pick. For Stepien purposes, the Bulls pick doesn't mean anything. If the Bulls pick was unprotected, then it would count.

Ok I thought you were saying the pick could not count because it was ours. But you are correct with the guaranteed.

[Chinook]

Ok I thought you were saying the pick could not count because it was ours. But you are correct with the guaranteed.

Yeah, basically if the Spurs just trade the Bulls pick, they'd be able to trade their 22, 24, 26 and 28 picks in addition to the 25 CHI. If they did that weird swap, then they could only trade 22 or 23 and 27 or 28. So that's twice as many encumbered picks in an effort to keep the better pick. And depending on how it was worded, it might block out trading that 27/28 pick, making the encumbering even worse.

By far, if the Spurs had the choice to give up two picks, 22 unprotected and the 25 CHI are the best two to move from the team's perspective. If the 22 first ends up being a late-lottery, all the better for future trades.

[talkspurs]

Yeah, basically if the Spurs just trade the Bulls pick, they'd be able to trade their 22, 24, 26 and 28 picks in addition to the 25 CHI. If they did that weird swap, then they could only trade 22 or 23 and 27 or 28. So that's twice as many encumbered picks in an effort to keep the better pick. And depending on how it was worded, it might block out trading that 27/28 pick, making the encumbering even worse.

By far, if the Spurs had the choice to give up two picks, 22 unprotected and the 25 CHI are the best two to move from the team's perspective. If the 22 first ends up being a late-lottery, all the better for future trades.

BUt they could do something like the worse of Spurs and chicago pick and if they do not have 2 then it would be 2 2nd or something like that. It would slightly weaken the value of the trade but still give the Spurs a guaranteed pick that year.

[Chinook]

BUt they could do something like the worse of Spurs and chicago pick and if they do not have 2 then it would be 2 2nd or something like that. It would slightly weaken the value of the trade but still give the Spurs a guaranteed pick that year.

I mean, they certainly could just offer two seconds and hope Philly takes it. But there's a real chance the Bulls don't even have a chance to convey that first going into the 24/25 season. It might get pushed back to a 2026 pick if Chicago somehow keeps its pick this year.

[cd021]

It’s a little rich for me given the leverage/dynamics right now. Maybe Minni offers better pick capital, but they aren’t sending a player back now thar helps Joel. Who else is offering more tbh?

At least protect the picks if you’re the Spurs.

I think that the 2022 first would be a key part of the Spurs offer, so protecting it would hurt their offer considering that they'd still likely miss the playoffs next season. Maybe protect the '24 pick further, but with Morey, protections are especially key. Maybe the Spurs could get away with a top 10 protection in '24 but that protection lasts two or three seasons (similar to how the Bulls pick protections are). That way the Spurs wouldn't have to give up another lottery pick, in theory at least, while Philly gets three guaranteed 1sts (2 from the Spurs and 1 from the Suns).


Its going to be about saving face for Morey, If he can get Murray, Walker, and 3 firsts--including a likely top 10 pick next year, then that's probably the best offer he's getting. All things considered, that's not a lot to give up.

[cd021]

I'd rather give up a better pick from Chicago and let the Spurs keep their natural picks unencumbered. The point of the change would be so SA could trade their picks with only Stepien restriction as soon as next summer. If they're going to trade for Simmons, they need to be prepared to make moves to capitalize on having him. They can't do that if they're locked out of trading picks until 2026 at the soonest.

I don't think its possible to keep our own picks in a trade for Simmons. Maybe the '22 pick (still unprotected) and the '25 Bulls pick is doable. I like the idea of a three-teamer, in which the Spurs can ship Thad Young to the Suns in exchange for a first that can be rerouted to the 76ers.

Spurs Get:

Ben Simmons
Dario Saric

Philly Gets:

Murray
Walker
Jalen Smith
2022 Spurs Unprotected 1st
2025 Bulls protected 1st
2024 Phoenix 1st (lottery protected)


Phoenix Gets:

Thad Young

I think that's about as competitive offer as the 76ers are likely to get. As for the Spurs, don't gut their team while still having assets to build around him plus the remaining young players could still hit.

[Chinook]

I don't think its possible to keep our own picks in a trade for Simmons. Maybe the '22 pick (still unprotected) and the '25 Bulls pick is doable. I like the idea of a three-teamer, in which the Spurs can ship Thad Young to the Suns in exchange for a first that can be rerouted to the 76ers.

Spurs Get:

Ben Simmons
Dario Saric

Philly Gets:

Murray
Walker
Jalen Smith
2022 Spurs Unprotected 1st
2025 Bulls protected 1st
2024 Phoenix 1st (lottery protected)


Phoenix Gets:

Thad Young

I think that's about as competitive offer as the 76ers are likely to get. As for the Spurs, don't gut their team while still having assets to build around him plus the remaining young players could still hit.

My post is in the context of saying that if the Spurs can give up the Chicago pick outright rather than give up "the worst of Chicago's and SA's 2025 pick", then I'd prefer it. In that scenario, 2022 is unprotected and going to Philly. My point was that if the Spurs can pull off that trade, then they'd be able to trade any of their 2023-2029 picks next off-season. So if they saw an all-in trade that could put them over the top, they'd be able to do it more easily.

[jjspur]

Three players and three number ones for broken shot Ben Simmons,, you've got to be kidding. Plus he earns 30 plus million dollars. Do you realize how difficult it would be to get rid of his contract if he didn't like playing in San Antonio after a year? I know I'll take heat for this but here goes:

Don't involve Phoenix, we aren't getting much from them any way.

The trade:
Thaddeus Young - We were lucky to get anything for DeRozen, at least we have a few picks left - maybe
D. Murray - Don't see him playing well with Simmons plus he makes about 15 million for salary matching purposes.
C. Hutchinson - He's probably getting waived no matter where he plays...at that point it wouldn't be our problem any more.
A number 1 pick - whichever the sixers want, a spurs top 10 protected pick or a Bulls pick.
A number 2 pick - whichever the sixers want, a spurs#2 pick or a Bulls #2 pick which I believe we own also.

for

Ben Simmons & Paul Reed

I know that this isn't great a trade for Philly, but too bad. They are trying to screw anyone who would actually trade 3 plus players and three number one picks for broke shot, don't want to be in Philly anymore diva Ben Simmons. I'm sure that other GM's are laughing at their demands.
Think about it, the salaries just about match or we take in more salary which lowers their tax bill. You don't think Murray and Young together wont score more points and get more rebounds than one hate to shoot Ben Simmons. Plus we are throwing in 2 pretty decent draft picks. Again I know this isn't the best trade for Simmons, but if Philly wants that much more, let Minnesota or Sacramento duke it out to see who gets screwed over worse and sets their franchise back five years.

[talkspurs]

I think that the 2022 first would be a key part of the Spurs offer, so protecting it would hurt their offer considering that they'd still likely miss the playoffs next season. Maybe protect the '24 pick further, but with Morey, protections are especially key. Maybe the Spurs could get away with a top 10 protection in '24 but that protection lasts two or three seasons (similar to how the Bulls pick protections are). That way the Spurs wouldn't have to give up another lottery pick, in theory at least, while Philly gets three guaranteed 1sts (2 from the Spurs and 1 from the Suns).


Its going to be about saving face for Morey, If he can get Murray, Walker, and 3 firsts--including a likely top 10 pick next year, then that's probably the best offer he's getting. All things considered, that's not a lot to give up.

This shows how bad a player is. People are saying we get him and we still will finish pretty low. It would be better for us to keep our rookie this year and draft a good player with it.

[Chinook]

This shows how bad a player is. People are saying we get him and we still will finish pretty low. It would be better for us to keep our rookie this year and draft a good player with it.

That doesn't show how bad a player is. Anything can happen in future years. Look at GS getting the second-overall pick a year after playing in the Finals.

Simmons doesn't make the Spurs a contender, but if they keep most of their good players, they should make the playoffs. More importantly, they should have the ability to make future trades to be a contender. Bypassing Simmons and drafting a rookie almost certainly doesn't do that.

[stnick2261]

If we trade for Simmons, then we go from tanking to going for the playoffs this year. I don't see us trading Young away at that point because he's a good player. I personally would prefer to tank and get a franchise player (even though the odds of that are low). I would only off up to:

Murray, Walker, Aminu & Bulls 2025 First Rd pick.

I believe that saves the 76ers around $3mil this year for tax purposes. If they don't accept the trade, I'd walk away.

[talkspurs]

That doesn't show how bad a player is. Anything can happen in future years. Look at GS getting the second-overall pick a year after playing in the Finals.

Simmons doesn't make the Spurs a contender, but if they keep most of their good players, they should make the playoffs. More importantly, they should have the ability to make future trades to be a contender. Bypassing Simmons and drafting a rookie almost certainly doesn't do that.

Your useing flawed logic to say GS got a 2nd rd pick the year after playing in the finals. Yes this happend but the also lost almost all of their players to injury (kd left). Its like saying the bulls were no good the year after they won the last championship. This would be with Simmons staying healthy we would still be expected to get a top 10 pick. Even with DDR we did not get a top 10 pick. I do not see Simmons having a positive impact on the team. I would rather get a high pick then Simmons. I am of the camp of I do not want Simmons at any cost though.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Your useing flawed logic to say GS got a 2nd rd pick the year after playing in the finals. Yes this happend but the also lost almost all of their players to injury (kd left). Its like saying the bulls were no good the year after they won the last championship. This would be with Simmons staying healthy we would still be expected to get a top 10 pick. Even with DDR we did not get a top 10 pick. I do not see Simmons having a positive impact on the team. I would rather get a high pick then Simmons. I am of the camp of I do not want Simmons at any cost though.

Injuries can happen. This is exactly what Chinook meant I think. His logic is not flawed at all.

[baseline bum]

He reminds me of a middle infielder who suddenly has trouble throwing to 1st. It's not easily correctable


IDK, that's more like Markelle Fultz IMO. This might just be Simmons not shooting low percentage (for him) shots.

[Chinook]

Your useing flawed logic to say GS got a 2nd rd pick the year after playing in the finals. Yes this happend but the also lost almost all of their players to injury (kd left). Its like saying the bulls were no good the year after they won the last championship. This would be with Simmons staying healthy we would still be expected to get a top 10 pick. Even with DDR we did not get a top 10 pick. I do not see Simmons having a positive impact on the team. I would rather get a high pick then Simmons. I am of the camp of I do not want Simmons at any cost though.

Yeah, you protect picks precisely because unexpected situations arise that cripples a team for a year. Simmons and White could tear their ACLs, and that would yield a high lotto pick. Or they could be healthy and the Spurs could make a playoff run and yield a low pick. If you protect a pick, you remove the downside.

Of course I'm against protecting a pick for reasons I've explained. But wanting protection doesn't speak badly of Simmons at all.

[baseline bum]

It’s a little rich for me given the leverage/dynamics right now. Maybe Minni offers better pick capital, but they aren’t sending a player back now thar helps Joel. Who else is offering more tbh?

At least protect the picks if you’re the Spurs.

Agreed. Simmons isn't worth Murray and three firsts or Murray + Young and two firsts, at least in this market where Morey is bent over the table. I only want a Simmons trade if the Spurs can pull off a total rape deal like the Raptors pulled on the Spurs for Leonard+Green with Poetl + a first as the only real assets (DePression was just a salary dump for them, like Aminu would be for the Spurs in such a deal).

[Maddog]

IDK, that's more like Markelle Fultz IMO. This might just be Simmons not shooting low percentage (for him) shots.

I agree it's not a perfect analogy, but he doesn't shoot. Is a liability in a close game because of his FT%. I think this probably more than Chip can fix. Add the huge contract

[John B]

Agreed. Simmons isn't worth Murray and three firsts or Murray + Young and two firsts, at least in this market where Morey is bent over the table. I only want a Simmons trade if the Spurs can pull off a total rape deal like the Raptors pulled on the Spurs for Leonard+Green with Poetl + a first as the only real assets (DePression was just a salary dump for them, like Aminu would be for the Spurs in such a deal).

Keldon texted :lol

[baseline bum]

Keldon texted :lol

Keldon was the first I mentioned.

[baseline bum]

I agree it's not a perfect analogy, but he doesn't shoot. Is a liability in a close game because of his FT%. I think this probably more than Chip can fix. Add the huge contract

More likely than not, which is why I only support buying low on Simmons. If I thought Chip would fix his shot I'd say just give Morey his four picks because Simmons with a jumpshot would be a yearly top 3 MVP candidate.

[Spurs9]

We need tspense to drop us some Simmons early info.

[Maddog]

More likely than not, which is why I only support buying low on Simmons. If I thought Chip would fix his shot I'd say just give Morey his four picks because Simmons with a jumpshot would be a yearly top 3 MVP candidate.
Therein lies the attraction. I'm trying to think of players who became adequate shooters after being essentially non shooters at this stage in their career. Avery Johnson became a decent jump shooter by 98 and 99,but he had a very different mentality

[tbdog]

We need tspense to drop us some Simmons early info.

Tspense is folklore.

[tbdog]

Therein lies the attraction. I'm trying to think of players who became adequate shooters after being essentially non shooters at this stage in their career. Avery Johnson became a decent jump shooter by 98 and 99,but he had a very different mentality

Jason kidd is the biggest one I know.

[Maddog]

Jason kidd is the biggest one I know.

That's a decent exception, however by age 24 he was hitting mid .700s on FT and >.300 on 3s.
Simmons is 25 and not shown any improvement in either taking shots or making them
It's reallytempting to go after him, if you could get him to shoot adequately he's an MVP candidate, but there is no indication that will happen..

[talkspurs]

Injuries can happen. This is exactly what Chinook meant I think. His logic is not flawed at all.

No its not the same as the top 10 pick is with simmons being healthy. They were getting top 10 picks because they were injured. We would be getting a top 10 pick with our players healthy. If it was talking about protections for the top 10 in case he got injured that would be similar as because both sides would think we would be not in the top 10.

[Chinook]

No its not the same as the top 10 pick is with simmons being healthy. They were getting top 10 picks because they were injured. We would be getting a top 10 pick with our players healthy. If it was talking about protections for the top 10 in case he got injured that would be similar as because both sides would think we would be not in the top 10.

You can believe that. Most of us don't. There isn't a player the Spurs could trade for where protecting picks wouldn't be a consideration. Not Simmons, not Giannis, not Doncic. Not one. Just like with those guys, you can make arguments for giving unprotected picks in a Simmons swap, but the downside of having injuries means protections will always be useful.

So now it's out there in the open what I said and meant.

[XDT76]

The difference with Jason Kidd and AJ with Ben Simmons is that they are competitor with strong mental strength. Simmons becomes so affected that he does not even dare to attempt to score in the 4th Q in 3 playoff games. In 4th Q of the 7 games with the Hawks he has a total of 4fga.

[talkspurs]

You can believe that. Most of us don't. There isn't a player the Spurs could trade for where protecting picks wouldn't be a consideration. Not Simmons, not Giannis, not Doncic. Not one. Just like with those guys, you can make arguments for giving unprotected picks in a Simmons swap, but the downside of having injuries means protections will always be useful.

So now it's out there in the open what I said and meant.

We were not even talking about protecting picks originally. If we did the simmions trade Picks should be protected heavily. That way when he does nothing for us we still have our pick.

[talkspurs]

You can believe that. Most of us don't. There isn't a player the Spurs could trade for where protecting picks wouldn't be a consideration. Not Simmons, not Giannis, not Doncic. Not one. Just like with those guys, you can make arguments for giving unprotected picks in a Simmons swap, but the downside of having injuries means protections will always be useful.

So now it's out there in the open what I said and meant.

We were not even talking about protecting picks originally. If we did the simmions trade Picks should be protected heavily. That way when he does nothing for us we still have our pick.

[offset formation]

Have people brought up a potential three team trade between Philly, Phoenix, and San Antonio?

Spurs Get:

Ben Simmons
Dario Saric

Philly Gets:

Murray
Walker
Jalen Smith
2022 Spurs Unprotected 1st
2024 Spurs top 5 protected 1st
2024 Phoenix 1st (lottery protected)

Phoenix Gets:

Thad Young

madness. insanity.

[CGD]

madness. insanity.

Your probably one of the anti-Benners on here, which is cool.

I’m open to the trade for him, though, i do think the draft capital for Spurs is high in this scenario. Otherwise the framework makes a lot of sense.

[John B]

What realistic dates should Spurs fans watch for when we can see a possible trade for Simmons? (I highly suspect they are lining up the picks/players to get it done). Sept 9 when Primo can be included? Before Oct 4 Pre-Season? I don’t really see the benefits of Sixers delaying further, hurting them more as days pass.

[Maddog]

madness. insanity.

I'm with you. He's owed way too much money and has serious flaws in his game.

[DPG21920]

Your probably one of the anti-Benners on here, which is cool.

I’m open to the trade for him, though, i do think the draft capital for Spurs is high in this scenario. Otherwise the framework makes a lot of sense.

I would much rather do just SA and PHI directly and trade Thad to PHX to recoup a pick. I dont think that Jalen Smith would make or break the deal for PHI and if the picks are as you described from SA?

They would definitely need to use Thad to recoup a pick (or send instead of one of their own).

I am not a fan of giving 3 firsts (which giving Thad who would likely net SA a 1st on his own + our 2 picks) and Murray/Lonnie and having to eat Sarics deal.

[Chinook]

I think the sweet spot is Murray, Young, Vassell, the team's unprotected 22 first and the Chicago pick for Simmons and Paul Reed. The Sixers have no reason to not want Young in a world where they lose Simmons' size and play-making. If Philly wants to trade and get a pick from Phoenix, that's fine, but it's not SA's problem. As I've said enough to be annoying, if PATFO thinks Vassell is their blue-chipper, then they shouldn't trade him and looking at Johnson or Primo being the guy sent out. Assuming those are their two best prospects, this deal is pretty painless for the Spurs.

Simmons,, Jones
White, Forbes, Primo
Walker, McDermott
Johnson, Samanic, Reed, Aminu
Poeltl, Eubanks, Landale, Collins

That roster isn't complete. The Spurs still need to do something with their front-court log-jam. Getting Milton back instead of Reed would go a long way in that regard, but moving into 2022, Reed projects to have a solid role as basically Thad-lite, and the Spurs can always acquire another guard. The team will still have two second-rounders to pick guys or trade with Aminu's deal. They'll also have Eubanks and Landale, both of whom will hopefully look good during the season. There's also the elephant in the room that is Poeltl and how he, Johnson and Simmons would fit together. I wouldn't go into the year thinking of trading him, but he's also salary and value to add in a subsequent move if the opportunity arises.

Too many people are clinging to the absolutely upside of the pick and ignoring both the downsides and the likely average return. You want the Spurs to "pick a direction" toward a title? Well it means moving decent prospects and picks and giving themselves a chance to turn the value on their roster into a contender. That's not going to come from one trade or from a random pick or from fucking sixth-year players being the new Kawhi or whatever. If the Spurs don't like Simmons or as a litmus test think he's worth his contract, they shouldn't trade for him at all. If they do, then they can't being going in trying to pinch pennies. They shouldn't sell the farm, but we're talking about replacement-level players and mid-round picks. Even if Simmons is a dumpster fire filled with cash, it's not actually going to set the Spurs back very much.

[DPG21920]

I think the sweet spot is Murray, Young, Vassell, the team's unprotected 22 first and the Chicago pick for Simmons and Paul Reed. The Sixers have no reason to not want Young in a world where they lose Simmons' size and play-making. If Philly wants to trade and get a pick from Phoenix, that's fine, but it's not SA's problem. As I've said enough to be annoying, if PATFO thinks Vassell is their blue-chipper, then they shouldn't trade him and looking at Johnson or Primo being the guy sent out. Assuming those are their two best prospects, this deal is pretty painless for the Spurs.

Simmons,, Jones
White, Forbes, Primo
Walker, McDermott
Johnson, Samanic, Reed, Aminu
Poeltl, Eubanks, Landale, Collins

That roster isn't complete. The Spurs still need to do something with their front-court log-jam. Getting Milton back instead of Reed would go a long way in that regard, but moving into 2022, Reed projects to have a solid role as basically Thad-lite, and the Spurs can always acquire another guard. The team will still have two second-rounders to pick guys or trade with Aminu's deal. They'll also have Eubanks and Landale, both of whom will hopefully look good during the season. There's also the elephant in the room that is Poeltl and how he, Johnson and Simmons would fit together. I wouldn't go into the year thinking of trading him, but he's also salary and value to add in a subsequent move if the opportunity arises.

Too many people are clinging to the absolutely upside of the pick and ignoring both the downsides and the likely average return. You want the Spurs to "pick a direction" toward a title? Well it means moving decent prospects and picks and giving themselves a chance to turn the value on their roster into a contender. That's not going to come from one trade or from a random pick or from fucking sixth-year players being the new Kawhi or whatever. If the Spurs don't like Simmons or as a litmus test think he's worth his contract, they shouldn't trade for him at all. If they do, then they can't being going in trying to pinch pennies. They shouldn't sell the farm, but we're talking about replacement-level players and mid-round picks. Even if Simmons is a dumpster fire filled with cash, it's not actually going to set the Spurs back very much.

I am fine with this more than the other one since we don’t eat Saric, keep Lonnie and only give up one actual Spurs pick vs 2. My only beef is Vassell. I am pretty high on him. I am not so high on Simmons personally.

But this type of package seems like the right type.

I personally would be fighting to keep all the youth except Murray out although ultimately you are correct; if SA likes Simmons and truly believes in him keeping one more young player won’t be franchise altering. Especially if they only give up one of their own picks (and can protect it).

But I would love to swap Jakob for Vassell here…to me that would be the perfect trade: Murray/Jakob/Thad/Chi 1st/SA 22’nd

Ultimately I personally prefer they do no trade for Simmons though. I would understand it if they do and it’s in this type of deal, but I would prefer they do not.

The question for me is if they did the trade and if Simmons didn’t work out - do we think SA would be able to recoup one or two of the firsts they gave up by flipping Simmons to another team?

[tbdog]

I'm keeping vassell over walker. That kid is going to be a glue guy his whole career.

[baseline bum]

I think the sweet spot is Murray, Young, Vassell, the team's unprotected 22 first and the Chicago pick for Simmons and Paul Reed. The Sixers have no reason to not want Young in a world where they lose Simmons' size and play-making. If Philly wants to trade and get a pick from Phoenix, that's fine, but it's not SA's problem. As I've said enough to be annoying, if PATFO thinks Vassell is their blue-chipper, then they shouldn't trade him and looking at Johnson or Primo being the guy sent out. Assuming those are their two best prospects, this deal is pretty painless for the Spurs.

Simmons,, Jones
White, Forbes, Primo
Walker, McDermott
Johnson, Samanic, Reed, Aminu
Poeltl, Eubanks, Landale, Collins

That roster isn't complete. The Spurs still need to do something with their front-court log-jam. Getting Milton back instead of Reed would go a long way in that regard, but moving into 2022, Reed projects to have a solid role as basically Thad-lite, and the Spurs can always acquire another guard. The team will still have two second-rounders to pick guys or trade with Aminu's deal. They'll also have Eubanks and Landale, both of whom will hopefully look good during the season. There's also the elephant in the room that is Poeltl and how he, Johnson and Simmons would fit together. I wouldn't go into the year thinking of trading him, but he's also salary and value to add in a subsequent move if the opportunity arises.

Too many people are clinging to the absolutely upside of the pick and ignoring both the downsides and the likely average return. You want the Spurs to "pick a direction" toward a title? Well it means moving decent prospects and picks and giving themselves a chance to turn the value on their roster into a contender. That's not going to come from one trade or from a random pick or from fucking sixth-year players being the new Kawhi or whatever. If the Spurs don't like Simmons or as a litmus test think he's worth his contract, they shouldn't trade for him at all. If they do, then they can't being going in trying to pinch pennies. They shouldn't sell the farm, but we're talking about replacement-level players and mid-round picks. Even if Simmons is a dumpster fire filled with cash, it's not actually going to set the Spurs back very much.

Meh that's a lot to give up to someone forced to sell. If the Spurs are giving up two firsts and Vassel then Aminu can be the salary cap fodder. Plus if the Spurs are getting Simmons it's not a tank year, so I want Young to either start or be a sixth man.

[KingKev]

Meh that's a lot to give up to someone forced to sell. If the Spurs are giving up two firsts and Vassel then Aminu can be the salary cap fodder. Plus if the Spurs are getting Simmons it's not a tank year, so I want Young to either start or be a sixth man.

Yeah I’m with you. White, Aminu, one of Vassell,
Walker or Sammy and a protected first is all I’m offering. They will get better away i’m sure but Simmons is more Westbrook than James Harden.

[baseline bum]

Yeah I’m with you. White, Aminu, one of Vassell,
Walker or Sammy and a protected first is all I’m offering. They will get better away i’m sure but Simmons is more Westbrook than James Harden.

No way I'm offering White, he could actually play with Simmons. Murray is who Philly can have in trade. They can have Walker if they want, I don't give a crap about keeping him, he's trash. Samanic I'd like to keep to see if he can do shit this year but if it's a sticking point I'd ship him out too.

[KingKev]

No way I'm offering White, he could actually play with Simmons. Murray is who Philly can have in trade. They can have Walker if they want, I don't give a crap about keeping him, he's trash. Samanic I'd like to keep to see if he can do shit this year but if it's a sticking point I'd ship him out too.

White is older, injury prone and owed more money. If we go after Simmons I’d hope there is appetite to add more scoring at the 2/3 (like a Beal, Lavine, CJ) such that DJ and Simmons could play together and wreak havoc on the defensive end.

[TD 21]

All this talk about weaknesses, preference, timeline, etc. misses the point. Unless you're in a glamour market and sometimes even then, you don't get to pick the who or the when of your superstars and stars and as Chinook has said, it's not realistic to expect to draft and develop all of the next ones, especially for an organization opposed to a full scale re-build.

Even if it is a flawed, complimentary type, this might be their only realistic chance to trade for one for the foreseeable future because other teams have better assets to beat them out when the more desirable ones come available and/or they'll have the contractual leverage to dissuade non glamour markets.




Based on that, I think the Spurs have a great chance of getting him. I think it will come down to the number of attached picks though.

Three is probably the magic number and I suspect it'd be moreso about the caliber/protections and finding a third team to provide them with a quality veteran PG to help keep them in pseudo contention while still having enough assets to be in the game for Lillard, Beal, if/when.



Have people brought up a potential three team trade between Philly, Phoenix, and San Antonio?

Spurs Get:

Ben Simmons
Dario Saric

Philly Gets:

Murray
Walker
Jalen Smith
2022 Spurs Unprotected 1st
2024 Spurs top 5 protected 1st
2024 Phoenix 1st (lottery protected)

Phoenix Gets:

Thad Young

I've brought up similar variations. I'd be steadfast on protecting top one throughout and would prefer a '25 1st to a '24 1st because of the possibility of the Bulls '25 1st.

Outside of that, I agree it's not that much when factoring in the likelihood of those picks becoming mid-lateish lottery ones.



I think the sweet spot is Murray, Young, Vassell, the team's unprotected 22 first and the Chicago pick for Simmons and Paul Reed.

I'd rather give up a Walker IV and a lesser 1st (like the Suns protected '24) than Vassell, who's importance would increase exponentially with an expedited timeline.


The question for me is if they did the trade and if Simmons didn’t work out - do we think SA would be able to recoup one or two of the firsts they gave up by flipping Simmons to another team?

Presuming relative health, of course.

[Dejounte]

^What the roster looks like now screams full scale rebuild, so I’m not sure about that one. On the other hand, going after Simmons fits with your line of “an organization against a full scale rebuild”. May raise the floor a bit, but not enough to make noise and only enough to hurt the team’s future. Ben, without Embiid, led the team to a sub .500 record. This team doesn’t have an Embiid. Are folks ready for an era similar to the DeRozan era we just had? I’ll reiterate that I’m prepared for either reality, but I’m not sure if other people really realize what’s to come. But once again, a Spurs future with Ben Simmons is unlikely in the first place (especially as we hear more and more updates that exclude the Spurs being involved), but it’s the summer and this forum would be dead without this news.

[Atl Spur]

You never really hear a Spurs move....... it just happens

[baseline bum]

White is older, injury prone and owed more money. If we go after Simmons I’d hope there is appetite to add more scoring at the 2/3 (like a Beal, Lavine, CJ) such that DJ and Simmons could play together and wreak havoc on the defensive end.

I think the Spurs would be digging themselves deep holes every first quarter playing Murray and Simmons together. I'd only trade White if the Spurs already had a deal lined up to move Murray for a guard with some range who has reasonable defensive skills. They have no shot at Beal for Murray since Beal is happy in Washington and the Bulls aren't going to dump Lavine after all the money they spent this summer on Ball and DeRozan to try to build a winning team. I think Murray is a better player than White but not next to Simmons. Spurs can't expect to hold teams into the 80s and win like it was the 1990s.

[The Truth #6]

I start to convince myself the Spurs could commit to going all in on Simmons, but they rarely fully commit to anything. Call it flexibility or risk aversion, but it seems like the middle ground is where they are comfortable. Not committing maybe is their decision, so to speak. They couldn’t commit to LMA vs DDR when they should have. Of course, things can change. But I assume some other lessor team will make a deal first.

[baseline bum]

Three is probably the magic number and I suspect it'd be moreso about the caliber/protections and finding a third team to provide them with a quality veteran PG to help keep them in pseudo contention while still having enough assets to be in the game for Lillard, Beal, if/when.

Three picks plus Murray and Young is a whole lot to give up for non superstar level talent. Even two picks, Murray, and Young is a lot. That's like Prime Melo or Prime Deron Williams (back when everyone thought he was elite) level of return for Philly, and Simmons is a much worse asset right now than either of those two were. Murray, a Spurs first, the Chicago first, and salary cap fodder like Aminu is as high as the Spurs should go on their offer.

[TD 21]

^What the roster looks like now screams full scale rebuild, so I’m not sure about that one. On the other hand, going after Simmons fits with your line of “an organization against a full scale rebuild”. May raise the floor a bit, but not enough to make noise and only enough to hurt the team’s future. Ben, without Embiid, led the team to a sub .500 record. This team doesn’t have an Embiid. Are folks ready for an era similar to the DeRozan era we just had? I’ll reiterate that I’m prepared for either reality, but I’m not sure if other people really realize what’s to come. But once again, a Spurs future with Ben Simmons is unlikely in the first place (especially as we hear more and more updates that exclude the Spurs being involved), but it’s the summer and this forum would be dead without this news.

People conflate the mutual departures of DeRozan and Gay (they wanted Mills back) with their wanting a full scale rebuild, but I've long said their goal appears to be Pacers West and this would fit with that.

My prefernce has always been a full scale rebuild, but any path is unlikely to yield foreseeable future results beyond ending up somewhere in the middle.

People seem to have this notion that they'll just pick in the top 5-10 for a few years, sprinkle some Spurs pixie dust on them, magically have a superstar and co stars and voila, they're back among the elite in 3-5 years.



Three picks plus Murray and Young is a whole lot to give up for non superstar level talent. Even two picks, Murray, and Young is a lot. That's like Prime Melo or Prime Deron Williams (back when everyone thought he was elite) level of return for Philly, and Simmons is a much worse asset right now than either of those two were. Murray, a Spurs first, the Chicago first, and salary cap fodder like Aminu is as high as the Spurs should go on their offer.

One pick would be unlikely to be valuable (the one received for Young) and I don't think Murray has much either. The Spurs youth is so overrated on this board.

Can't compare value from different eras.

[baseline bum]

[/FONT]One pick would be unlikely to be valuable (the one received for Young) and I don't think Murray has much either. The Spurs youth is so overrated on this board.


Fully agreed, but Philly is in no position to get much value for Simmons. If we're talking today's era look what the Spurs got for Leonard: Poetl, one first, and a salary dump vet Toronto wanted gone in DeRozan. And that was for a yearly MVP candidate. Why would Philly get a better offer than that when Simmons is only half the player Kawhi was?

[tonight...you]

Fully agreed, but Philly is in no position to get much value for Simmons. If we're talking today's era look what the Spurs got for Leonard: Poetl, one first, and a salary dump vet Toronto wanted gone in DeRozan. And that was for a yearly MVP candidate. Why would Philly get a better offer than that when Simmons is only half the player Kawhi was?
So true.

[TD 21]

Fully agreed, but Philly is in no position to get much value for Simmons. If we're talking today's era look what the Spurs got for Leonard: Poetl, one first, and a salary dump vet Toronto wanted gone in DeRozan. And that was for a yearly MVP candidate. Why would Philly get a better offer than that when Simmons is only half the player Kawhi was?

Having 4 years remaining on his contract helps, but every superstar and star in recent memory has went for more than Scumbag, who successfully destroyed his value (then somehow came out relatively unscathed by non Spurs fans, but I digress).

Holiday, a similar caliber player to Simmons, just went for a starter (granted, a salary dump), good backup, 3 1sts and multiple swaps.

[Gagnrath]

Three picks plus Murray and Young is a whole lot to give up for non superstar level talent. Even two picks, Murray, and Young is a lot. That's like Prime Melo or Prime Deron Williams (back when everyone thought he was elite) level of return for Philly, and Simmons is a much worse asset right now than either of those two were. Murray, a Spurs first, the Chicago first, and salary cap fodder like Aminu is as high as the Spurs should go on their offer.

Three top 50 protected second rounders will probably take over a decade to actually transfer to the 76ers. A top 40 protected second a top 50 protected and Forbes seems like kind of a lot for Simmons.

[Gagnrath]

Why is anyone taking about giving up Murray for a ball hog defensive minded power forward, with no range and a bad attitude?

[mo7888]

Why is anyone taking about giving up Murray for a ball hog defensive minded power forward, with no range and a bad attitude?

Because that ball hog power forward is infinitely better ..

[baseline bum]

Having 4 years remaining on his contract helps, but every superstar and star in recent memory has went for more than Scumbag, who successfully destroyed his value (then somehow came out relatively unscathed by non Spurs fans, but I digress).

Holiday, a similar caliber player to Simmons, just went for a starter (granted, a salary dump), good backup, 3 1sts and multiple swaps.

Not comparable IMO. Not only was Milwaukee getting a great player, but they were dumping a useless player on a big money contract in Bledsoe. Bledsoe was pure highly negative value and that's why they had to sweeten the pot with that third pick. And Holiday wasn't forcing his way out of town like Simmons so Milwaukee didn't have NO's GM bent over the table. Also Holiday is Simmons on defense but with an efficient offensive game and a pretty high quality three point shot while shooting a decent amount of them per game, so I disagree they're similar caliber players. Simmons is potential, and with high bust potential. Holiday is a finished product.

[talkspurs]

Because that ball hog power forward is infinitely better ..

Hes really not. he has a bigger name and is on a better team but he is not better. Part of the reason I dont get why so many people want him.

[mo7888]

Hes really not. he has a bigger name and is on a better team but he is not better. Part of the reason I dont get why so many people want him.

He is and it's not close....but we're all allowed to have our own opinions..

[Chinook]

He is and it's not close....but we're all allowed to have our own opinions..

Like holy shit, we're basically talking about how many assets should the Spurs spend to turn Murray into the star version of himself. I wouldn't accept any Simmons deal that left Murray on the team. It'd be like trading for Myles Turner but not wanting to give up Poeltl in the process.

[mo7888]

Like holy shit, we're basically talking about how many assets should the Spurs spend to turn Murray into the star version of himself. I wouldn't accept any Simmons deal that left Murray on the team. It'd be like trading for Myles Turner but not wanting to give up Poeltl in the process.

Yup... it amazes me how one playoff series skews the vision of people trying to evaluate him... getting him actually gives us a potential path to becoming a legit team again.

[objective]

Simmons proved he wasn't capable of performing in the playoffs. He was a disaster, and will continue to be. He made a choice to not shoot in fourth quarters.

If the goal is to eventually win a title, Simmons isn't getting the Spurs there, ever.

He couldn't get out of the second round with an MVP-caliber Embiid carrying him.

I had been lukewarm on moving Murray and pieces for him, but after enough time to think it through, I'm out. Wouldn't even trade Murray for him.

[ismael-robert]

We're only adding assets to Murray due to vast contract differences without vast talent differences. It's not one bad playoff he hasn't had any offense since entering league while dj improves every year. He'll come out this year n show us why we don't need Ben

[Chinook]

It's weird logic to saying Simmons proved he can't make it out of the second round "with Embiid carrying him". Like Embiid is the star of that team. If anyone "proved" their ceiling, it's Joel, who wasn't able to get out of the second round despite having a championship level supporting cast and a soft side of the bracket.

And no, I'd trade a shit ton for Embiid. He's better than Simmons, even with his very real flaws. It's just that they both failed, not just Simmons. People are acting like Ben had a break-away dunk but then stopped in the paint and threw it into the stands. He spun past his guy in the post, saw a guard rushing at him, and dropped the ball off the guard's man. Our previous obsession John Collins made a smart read in ignoring Simmons' look-away fake, and Gallo was able to recover due to poor reaction time by Simmons and Thybulle. So the pass was a mistake, but it wasn't some indicative of some awful problem with him. The Spurs used to do those passes all the time. That's what "good to great" meant. Simmons should've looked to shoot rather than to pass, but at the rim is one place where Ben isn't shy. He's good there, and he's finished with contact many times.

Also, there were three minutes left in the game. This wasn't the deciding play. Holy shit, most Spurs champions have personal fuck-ups worse than what Simmons did.

[Chinook]

I think the Spurs would be digging themselves deep holes every first quarter playing Murray and Simmons together. I'd only trade White if the Spurs already had a deal lined up to move Murray for a guard with some range who has reasonable defensive skills. They have no shot at Beal for Murray since Beal is happy in Washington and the Bulls aren't going to dump Lavine after all the money they spent this summer on Ball and DeRozan to try to build a winning team. I think Murray is a better player than White but not next to Simmons. Spurs can't expect to hold teams into the 80s and win like it was the 1990s.

I know a lot of Nuggets fans are keen on trading their Murray for White and Aminu. I think a Jamal and Ben back court would fit together really nicely, and if Vassell and Johnson are both still on the team, they could grow into a strong perimeter around Poeltl or some better-suited center. It would mean that 2022-2023 is a learning/adjustment year. But the talent infusion would be really interesting, especially if it left the Spurs with most of their picks to make another big trade.

Of course, there's also no universe in which DJM is better than White. They aren't close. White's closer to Simmons than DeJounte is to him.

[baseline bum]

I know a lot of Nuggets fans are keen on trading their Murray for White and Aminu. I think a Jamal and Ben back court would fit together really nicely, and if Vassell and Johnson are both still on the team, they could grow into a strong perimeter around Poeltl or some better-suited center. It would mean that 2022-2023 is a learning/adjustment year. But the talent infusion would be really interesting, especially if it left the Spurs with most of their picks to make another big trade.

Of course, there's also no universe in which DJM is better than White. They aren't close. White's closer to Simmons than DeJounte is to him.

Nuggets fans may be keen on that but I can't imagine the Nuggets GM would.

[Dejounte]

It's weird logic to saying Simmons proved he can't make it out of the second round "with Embiid carrying him". Like Embiid is the star of that team. If anyone "proved" their ceiling, it's Joel, who wasn't able to get out of the second round despite having a championship level supporting cast and a soft side of the bracket.

And no, I'd trade a shit ton for Embiid. He's better than Simmons, even with his very real flaws. It's just that they both failed, not just Simmons. People are acting like Ben had a break-away dunk but then stopped in the paint and threw it into the stands. He spun past his guy in the post, saw a guard rushing at him, and dropped the ball off the guard's man. Our previous obsession John Collins made a smart read in ignoring Simmons' look-away fake, and Gallo was able to recover due to poor reaction time by Simmons and Thybulle. So the pass was a mistake, but it wasn't some indicative of some awful problem with him. The Spurs used to do those passes all the time. That's what "good to great" meant. Simmons should've looked to shoot rather than to pass, but at the rim is one place where Ben isn't shy. He's good there, and he's finished with contact many times.

Also, there were three minutes left in the game. This wasn't the deciding play. Holy shit, most Spurs champions have personal fuck-ups worse than what Simmons did.

Yeah, no. It’s not one play, not one playoffs that people see as the nail in the coffin for Ben. It’s the stagnant level of play, the amount of field goals over time that has decreased when it matters most. This is a fucking supposed star who is shooting no more than 10 field goals per game in the playoffs.

The statements that are being made on here are ridiculous. I think what irks me most is the overrating of Ben and the use of Murray to prop him up. It doesn’t bother me that people are disillusioned about what Murray’s value is, but this love affair for a player who will somehow elevate the team into much more than what DeMar did is appalling. But no surprise when the same group of people were in love with LMA and DeMar on this team are in love with a third tier-at-best player in Simmons. People are going to read this post wrong and assume I’m saying Simmons is trash— he’s not. But he’s not a savior who will improve the team’s trajectory in any way than what we’ve seen in the past three years.

[Dex]

You never really hear a Spurs move....... it just happens

Which is exactly why this whole Ben Simmons thing isn't going to happen.

[Chinook]

Yeah, no. It’s not one play, not one playoffs that people see as the nail in the coffin for Ben. It’s the stagnant level of play, the amount of field goals over time that has decreased when it matters most. This is a fucking supposed star who is shooting no more than 10 field goals per game in the playoffs.

The statements that are being made on here are ridiculous. I think what irks me most is the overrating of Ben and the use of Murray to prop him up. It doesn’t bother me that people are disillusioned about what Murray’s value is, but this love affair for a player who will somehow elevate the team into much more than what DeMar did is appalling. But no surprise when the same group of people were in love with LMA and DeMar on this team are in love with a third tier-at-best player in Simmons. People are going to read this post wrong and assume I’m saying Simmons is trash— he’s not. But he’s not a savior who will improve the team’s trajectory in any way than what we’ve seen in the past three years.

No. It's not one play. What it is is a dillusional sect of the fanbase that doesn't understand that being able to find flaws in a player isn't the same as that player being bad, and that a player having potential to improve isn't the same them being better than other guys who are more differentiated.

Nobody is saying this trade would save the franchise by itself. It doesn't have to. The Spurs are giving up very little of note to make it happen. They aren't setting a rebuild back much or anything. They're just getting a massive infusion of talent for spare parts. Doing shit like saying Simmons is so bad that Embiid can't drag him to the ECF is moon logic. Somehow the failure is being attributed to the second banana's inability to be a first banana rather than the first banana's ability to be a first banana. This is ignoring that Simmons wouldn't be expected to carry the Spurs to a title. It's just, no. Both Simmons and Embiid bear responsibility for that series. Blaming it on Simmons alone or that play is just a meme.

[Dejounte]

I literally said Simmons wasn’t a bad player. What the fuck is an infusion of talent worth when that infusion isn’t expected to carry the title? Your premise for roster building is as bad as the circular logic contained in your post. I would say the only disillusioned here is the group who thinks this team will make big trades or spend the max on a player who’s opposite of their values. What team do you think this is?

[TD 21]

Not comparable IMO. Not only was Milwaukee getting a great player, but they were dumping a useless player on a big money contract in Bledsoe. Bledsoe was pure highly negative value and that's why they had to sweeten the pot with that third pick. And Holiday wasn't forcing his way out of town like Simmons so Milwaukee didn't have NO's GM bent over the table. Also Holiday is Simmons on defense but with an efficient offensive game and a pretty high quality three point shot while shooting a decent amount of them per game, so I disagree they're similar caliber players. Simmons is potential, and with high bust potential. Holiday is a finished product.

They're both complimentary stars though Simmons has been considered better and has a higher upside. He's an even more versatile defender and Holiday is inefficient offensively, but more useful in the playoffs because he doesn't have a glaring weakness that can easily be exploited . . . but that only matters at a championship level and this organization has given no indication of that being the ultimate goal here.

I acknowledged Bledsoe was a salary dump, but he was also a quality starting PG in the regular season whose flaws were only fatal because the Bucks were a championship contender.

For the 9,000 time, the 76ers leverage is that he has 4 years remaining, which is unusual in these cases and therefore opens it up to non glamour markets like this one. They're clearly not getting some massive package, but they're damn sure beating most of the crap suggested by the apologists, casuals and homers on here.

You idiots have got Chinook and I (mostly) agreeing. :wow

[Chinook]

I literally said Simmons wasn’t a bad player. What the fuck is an infusion of talent worth when that infusion isn’t expected to carry the title? Your premise for roster building is as bad as the circular logic contained in your post. I would say the only disillusioned here is the group who thinks this team will make big trades or spend the max on a player who’s opposite of their values. What team do you think this is?

You don't have to become a contender as an immediate result of a trade for it to be worth it. It's weird that you considered that a good counter. Teams make trades like that repeatedly like Chicago giving up picks for Vuc or the Heat for Dragic. You take a step with one move then make others.

The "The Spurs would never do this" rebuttal doesn't work. We don't have to care about PATFO's culture. We discussing the value and impact of a Simmons trade, not betting on its reality. That's not delusional. Thinking that Murray is equal to or better than Simmons is.

Whether the Spurs want to trade for him or not, there are many hypothetical trades where bringing him in is a no-brainer. There are reasons to not trade for him, but the prices being discussed in recent pages isn't one of them. People don't realize how disposable or at least easily replaceable most of the roster is now that the Spurs are a mediocre team. For example, five years ago, a Vassell-level prospect would've been pure gold for the Spurs. Now they can expect to draft one every year. They can trade him and just draft a new mid-first three-and-D wing next year or at worst in two years. It's no big deal. White was a late-round guy who played like a mid-round guy. That was a huge boon back when all SA had was late-round picks. Now they have mid-round picks every year and can try to draft a guy there rather than clinging to their previous steal. Folks need to accept what being in this new era of the team means and stop thinking this is just a pit stop on the way to a quick and inevitable return to the playoff streak.

[jjspur]

Realistically. most offers for Simmons will probably be more than the spurs front office will be willing to give up for a player that just wont move the needle much right away. Some team will eventually break down and send several players and picks for Simmons. I just don't think it will be the spurs.
Maybe we can include Thaddeus Young as part of a package that another team makes for Simmons. We won't get Simmons, but we may get something of value for Young and whomever else the spurs don't exactly want for this years team. (Please no trades with Phoenix) Young has value, if the spurs really don't want him or question his fit on the team, why not kill two birds with one stone and improve our team at the same time. This may get us more than just trading him at the deadline. At the deadline, if you don't trade a player you're stuck with him and may have to buy them out. That's basically money down the drain and the player just gets money and gets to play where he wants. Haven't the spurs done enough of that.

[exstatic]

It's weird logic to saying Simmons proved he can't make it out of the second round "with Embiid carrying him". Like Embiid is the star of that team. If anyone "proved" their ceiling, it's Joel, who wasn't able to get out of the second round despite having a championship level supporting cast and a soft side of the bracket.

And no, I'd trade a shit ton for Embiid. He's better than Simmons, even with his very real flaws. It's just that they both failed, not just Simmons. People are acting like Ben had a break-away dunk but then stopped in the paint and threw it into the stands. He spun past his guy in the post, saw a guard rushing at him, and dropped the ball off the guard's man. Our previous obsession John Collins made a smart read in ignoring Simmons' look-away fake, and Gallo was able to recover due to poor reaction time by Simmons and Thybulle. So the pass was a mistake, but it wasn't some indicative of some awful problem with him. The Spurs used to do those passes all the time. That's what "good to great" meant. Simmons should've looked to shoot rather than to pass, but at the rim is one place where Ben isn't shy. He's good there, and he's finished with contact many times.

Also, there were three minutes left in the game. This wasn't the deciding play. Holy shit, most Spurs champions have personal fuck-ups worse than what Simmons did.

Manu probably cost us two rings in 06 and 13, and I still rank him in my top 3 Spurs. No one is perfect.

[DPG21920]

And I wouldn’t be so sure SA could flip Simmons if things went south. If he didn’t work out here (meaning we didn’t see an improvement in a year or two in his shooting and attitude) then the ceiling and hope is gone with how he’s viewed and his last 2 years of his deal is an albatross you can maybe do a Westbrook/Wall type of deal for.

I’m not so certain Sa could recoup firsts in that situation is all I’m saying (in a situation where we don’t see any improvement)

[Chinook]

And I wouldn’t be so sure SA could flip Simmons if things went south. If he didn’t work out here (meaning we didn’t see an improvement in a year or two in his shooting and attitude) then the ceiling and hope is gone with how he’s viewed and his last 2 years of his deal is an albatross you can maybe do a Westbrook/Wall type of deal for.

I’m not so certain Sa could recoup firsts in that situation is all I’m saying (in a situation where we don’t see any improvement)

Simmons doesn't have to improve to be worth his deal. He's a DPOY candidate who's also a great facilitator and finisher. That's why SA should look at trading for him, not because of potential. The Spurs should look at him as basically anchoring their defense and get him a primary scoring guard and two-way big-wing to run with him. The improvement they'd be looking for is in guys like Primo, Keldon and Vassell/Walker. If they can get another star out of that group, then they'd be in position to make an all-in trade to move toward being a contender. Otherwise, they have to look at two more big trades, which means continuing to accumulate assets and contracts to match

[talkspurs]

So I looked at the record for the 76ers without embid and it was 7-9 https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/sixers-record-when-embiid-does-not-play-and-ben-simmons-plays-this-season.
This would be roughly 35 wins in an 82 game season. I did find a stretch where he was out for 9 games March 14-April 1st. The only good team they beat during that time was Milwaukee. They also beat the lakers but that was without AD and lehype. They also lost to us and the wolves. During that time frame they did respectable 5-4 but I would not say this was because of Simmons. Looks like he shot 48/106 fg for 45% Only hit double digit rebounds in 3 of the 9 games or 1/3. More To then ast in 2 and tied in a third. 4 total blocks 11total steals.

People keep talking about how him being here for 4 years means he is stuck here and has to play. Kawhi set out when he had 2 years and Simmons is already saying he is going to do with with 4 years. There is no guarantee that he would play here for the 4 years. If he does this again to us who know how low the package would be. DJM is also signed for 3 more years at a much cheaper contract. This is why I can say DJM is the better player. He also is happy to be here and much cheaper contract. So no I would not trade Murray plus salary filler for Ben.

edit: I also look at ppg and it was a about 13.5. nothing in these numbers is start quality. People Believe the name and hype and not actually what he does.

[TD 21]

I'm not saying they'd get the exact value given up if things went south in 2 years, but he'd still be worth a decent amount, further mitigating the opportunity cost.

:lmao At people reading into small sample sizes and relying on counting stats without context.

I'm not a Simmons fan and have always found him overrated, but so much of the commentary in this thread is ridiculous.

[DPG21920]

Simmons doesn't have to improve to be worth his deal. He's a DPOY candidate who's also a great facilitator and finisher. That's why SA should look at trading for him, not because of potential. The Spurs should look at him as basically anchoring their defense and get him a primary scoring guard and two-way big-wing to run with him. The improvement they'd be looking for is in guys like Primo, Keldon and Vassell/Walker. If they can get another star out of that group, then they'd be in position to make an all-in trade to move toward being a contender. Otherwise, they have to look at two more big trades, which means continuing to accumulate assets and contracts to match


Maybe - but I am talking about how Simmons is viewed. In theory hes’ all of those things now and PHI doesn’t want him and he’s not getting big offers (that we know of). A big part of how fans and more importantly teams view him is still discussed in the lenses of “untapped potential” and “can fix his shot”.

If that narrative dies, I dont think hes worth his deal at all especially if you dont have the team success that PHI had to bolster any arguments. You may not agree with that and part of this is speculative, but my gut says many teams view him in the framework I presented and that represents risk to me that needs to be considered to the downside (meaning can you recoup picks if you dont like what you see when you’re up close and personal and giving away multiple firsts)

[talkspurs]

I'm not saying they'd get the exact value given up if things went south in 2 years, but he'd still be worth a decent amount, further mitigating the opportunity cost.

:lmao At people reading into small sample sizes and relying on counting stats without context.

I'm not a Simmons fan and have always found him overrated, but so much of the commentary in this thread is ridiculous.

He actually does not appear to be worth much currently. we dont know exactly his value but I have not heard of any team willing to give up a lot for him. If his value goes down even more it could be where your haveing to pay to get rid of him. Look at some other players are not work as much. Wall/ love are two players that were good but are not worth much now (yes older but had proven value). If Simmons does not improve he will not have much value. If this was the case then Bowen would have been a max player. There have been many good defense players that were nowhere close to max contracts and as people point out this is for 4 more years.

As far as using small sample size this is all we have to go on. He is not a star player and is living on his hype.

[acoelho1]

I haven't read a comment yet that makes a good case for this trade. What does Simmons actually do for this team in the short and long term while also losing multiple assets. Sure, he's an excellent defender but so is Murray and while he brings more playmaking, his shooting will continue to be a major issue on offense. Whether we acquire Simmons or not, we are still in need of a number 1 option and this trade won't do anything to fix that issue.

Furthermore, the Spurs history of acquiring all-star level talent from outside the program in my view has been a failure. From Jefferson, LMA & DeRozan, they all were productive but lacking that competitive mindset we've seen from so many former Spurs and I'm not only talking about the big 3.

Finally, as I mentioned before, if Simmons is willing to sit out training camp, it's a huge red flag and I anticipate this behavior will resurface again in the future. He has taken no ownership of his playoff performance while collecting millions from the organization and clearly doesn't have the toughness and fortitude to deal with adversity. He's simply not in the Spurs mold and I would pass on trying to acquire him.

[Mr. Body]

Simmons doesn't have to improve to be worth his deal. He's a DPOY candidate who's also a great facilitator and finisher. That's why SA should look at trading for him, not because of potential. The Spurs should look at him as basically anchoring their defense and get him a primary scoring guard and two-way big-wing to run with him. The improvement they'd be looking for is in guys like Primo, Keldon and Vassell/Walker. If they can get another star out of that group, then they'd be in position to make an all-in trade to move toward being a contender. Otherwise, they have to look at two more big trades, which means continuing to accumulate assets and contracts to match

Are you getting paid by Klutch or something? I hope so, because your takes on this whole situation are completely ridiculous.

[Mr. Body]

I haven't read a comment yet that makes a good case for this trade. What does Simmons actually do for this team in the short and long term while also losing multiple assets. Sure, he's an excellent defender but so is Murray and while he brings more playmaking, his shooting will continue to be a major issue on offense. Whether we acquire Simmons or not, we are still in need of a number 1 option and this trade won't do anything to fix that issue.

Furthermore, the Spurs history of acquiring all-star level talent from outside the program in my view has been a failure. From Jefferson, LMA & DeRozan, they all were productive but lacking that competitive mindset we've seen from so many former Spurs and I'm not only talking about the big 3.

Finally, as I mentioned before, if Simmons is willing to sit out training camp, it's a huge red flag and I anticipate this behavior will resurface again in the future. He has taken no ownership of his playoff performance while collecting millions from the organization and clearly doesn't have the toughness and fortitude to deal with adversity. He's simply not in the Spurs mold and I would pass on trying to acquire him.

This thread is only useful for a laugh. The Spurs would never trade for this git. He's expensive in salary, not worth anything in trade, is a total malcontent, and is wildly overrated as a player. It's just ridiculous.

[John B]

Many may not agree, but Diaw was the X-Factor in the beautiful game, his passing was contagious. You know what to expect from Timmy, he anchors the defense, Manu and Tony with their tenacity to win games when it mattered most. And yes Nephew’s ability to neutralize LeBron. But Diaw unselfishness of finding people, good to great shot. That’s what Simmons brings. Of course he needs to knock down shots, but his passing skills of finding people will have that Diaw effect is how I see it, not to mention him defending mobile bigs like LeBron, Giannis, Tatum, Kawhi where Spurs missed with Aldridge.

[Dejounte]

You don't have to become a contender as an immediate result of a trade for it to be worth it. It's weird that you considered that a good counter..

I've repeatedly said it doesn't help us in the long-term.



The "The Spurs would never do this" rebuttal doesn't work. We don't have to care about PATFO's culture. We discussing the value and impact of a Simmons trade, not betting on its reality.

No, we're really not. The discussion is centered around a media outlet reporting the Spurs being interested in Ben, and with people actively bringing up every miniscule move the Spurs make as if they're a precursor to a Ben Simmons trade. You have some here thinking something's going to happen when Primo is allowed to be traded, which I think was your hypothesis.


That's not delusional. Thinking that Murray is equal to or better than Simmons is.


Well, I don't know if you're referencing me here, but I never said such a thing nor do I believe that. In any case, some here have pointed out it's not a player to player comparison, but moreso the circumstance (contract, ego, fit, etc.) around the player that makes Murray > Simmons. NOT saying I agree, but it's more layered than how you think it is. Whether you agree or disagree, that's another point.



Whether the Spurs want to trade for him or not, there are many hypothetical trades where bringing him in is a no-brainer. There are reasons to not trade for him, but the prices being discussed in recent pages isn't one of them.

I mean, this is fair. I'm arguing the absurd expectation of what Ben is as a player and how unrealistic it is for him to develop a jump shot, lead a team, or all of a sudden not be a malcontent. You have folks here thinking he could be Boris Diaw for this team... yeah, that Boris Diaw who was the 4th or 5th option on a talent heavy team, let's pay that guy the max contract and hope he is a building block for a future contender. There are moves for the sake of making a move, and this would be one of them. I get that when a real star actually becomes available, the Spurs would probably not be a trade partner, but this isn't it. IF the Spurs get Ben, my hope is they continue to find another star to let Ben become the complementary piece, and not the other way around.

[Dejounte]

People conflate the mutual departures of DeRozan and Gay (they wanted Mills back) with their wanting a full scale rebuild, but I've long said their goal appears to be Pacers West and this would fit with that.

I missed this. Even if they are the Pacers of the West, the Pacers of the East would not be close to being a top 10 seed if they were in the West. To me, this is as close to a full scale rebuild with very few proven players on the projected roster - pretty much resembling a team that could bottom out (if you look at any point in NBA history and compare rosters), with the national media even acknowledging them as a potential top 5 worst team next season.

[Chinook]

I've repeatedly said it doesn't help us in the long-term.

Okay... but I'm not saying that. So we just disagree there. But when I say, " They're just getting a massive infusion of talent for spare parts," saying, "What the fuck is an infusion of talent worth when that infusion isn’t expected to carry the title?" is only really comprehensible if you think the logic of getting better doesn't make sense unless it's going to directly result in a title run. Right, like it's fine that you don't think the Spurs can win with Simmons on the team in any realistic capacity, but then you aren't actually criticizing what I'm saying; you're just expressing your different. That's fine, but it's just a stalemate at that point.


No, we're really not. The discussion is centered around a media outlet reporting the Spurs being interested in Ben, and with people actively bringing up every miniscule move the Spurs make as if they're a precursor to a Ben Simmons trade. You have some here thinking something's going to happen when Primo is allowed to be traded, which I think was your hypothesis.

So no, we're talking about the viability and potential results of a Simmons trade. Just like with Collins and numerous players before this year, I'm actually not doing anything but talking about the hypothetical scenarios involving the player. I didn't tell anyone that Primo's deadline is going to matter. I did say that if Primo was going to be part of a Simmons trade, the Spurs would have to wait until his deadline. If you read past that part, I basically said that it was unlikely that he would be part of a Simmons trade because his money would very likely not be needed to make the trade viable. They would've just traded his rights. Of course, the Spurs could still trade him or any other player on the team for Simmons or anyone else. But I'm not actually telling people it's going to happen, and anyone thinking that I am is wrong. I've never pretended to have sources or anything.


Well, I don't know if you're referencing me here, but I never said such a thing nor do I believe that. In any case, some here have pointed out it's not a player to player comparison, but moreso the circumstance (contract, ego, fit, etc.) around the player that makes Murray > Simmons. NOT saying I agree, but it's more layered than how you think it is. Whether you agree or disagree, that's another point.

No, I'm not talking about you there. I am talking about the Simmons criticism in general, which is the specific thing you quoted me to refute. However, I am not ignoring the "other factors" when saying Simmons is obviously better than Murray. A lot of things as it concerns ego, fit and contract don't align well with Murray, as I've said before. Talent is just one of the avenues in which Simmons is better.


I mean, this is fair. I'm arguing the absurd expectation of what Ben is as a player and how unrealistic it is for him to develop a jump shot, lead a team, or all of a sudden not be a malcontent.

I think trading for him hoping he'll start shooting is bad. He's not a good gamble. He's a good straight-buy in my mind, but you shouldn't get him for the upside. Yes, the Spurs should look for another star who fits with him. Whether you consider one the leader or not is up to here.

[TD 21]

He actually does not appear to be worth much currently. we dont know exactly his value but I have not heard of any team willing to give up a lot for him. If his value goes down even more it could be where your haveing to pay to get rid of him. Look at some other players are not work as much. Wall/ love are two players that were good but are not worth much now (yes older but had proven value). If Simmons does not improve he will not have much value. If this was the case then Bowen would have been a max player. There have been many good defense players that were nowhere close to max contracts and as people point out this is for 4 more years.

As far as using small sample size this is all we have to go on. He is not a star player and is living on his hype.

Context: most of the contenders or pseudo ones lack the expendable assets and because of his lack of shooting, in some cases it'd take reorienting the roster, so that takes them out and leaves teams non playoff/glamor market teams like this, who either don't have or are unwilling to send them a centerpiece and need to determine how much draft capital they'd be willing to part with.

Bowen was a specialist, who lacked the versatility of Simmons. Wall and Love lost value as aging players who'd suffered career altering injuries. As long as Simmons avoids the latter, he'll maintain solid resale value going forward. DeRozan, a less desirable player, just went for what ultimately might amount to two mid-late 1sts and a 2nd.

The point is, they're not worth reading into. He's a complimentary star.



I missed this. Even if they are the Pacers of the West, the Pacers of the East would not be close to being a top 10 seed if they were in the West. To me, this is as close to a full scale rebuild with very few proven players on the projected roster - pretty much resembling a team that could bottom out (if you look at any point in NBA history and compare rosters), with the national media even acknowledging them as a potential top 5 worst team next season.

I don't mean at the moment, I meant their goal is something like that. If they luck into something better, great. But they're not going to willingly go through what the 76ers did or the Thunder are in the midst of, to potentially attain it.

[ismael-robert]

Many may not agree, but Diaw was the X-Factor in the beautiful game, his passing was contagious. You know what to expect from Timmy, he anchors the defense, Manu and Tony with their tenacity to win games when it mattered most. And yes Nephew’s ability to neutralize LeBron. But Diaw unselfishness of finding people, good to great shot. That’s what Simmons brings. Of course he needs to knock down shots, but his passing skills of finding people will have that Diaw effect is how I see it, not to mention him defending mobile bigs like LeBron, Giannis, Tatum, Kawhi where Spurs missed with Aldridge.

Great post. But what was diaws max contract? In today's NBA he's worth same salary as dj or white...paying him what he's due ties up any team from putting the necessary assets he needs to win.

[John B]

Great post. But what was diaws max contract? In today's NBA he's worth same salary as dj or white...paying him what he's due ties up any team from putting the necessary assets he needs to win.
Agree. But Simmons will have the same positive effect contrary to what other posters say. And knowing Pop, he values defense and passing more than anything

[PhantomDashCam]

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/sixers/ben-simmons-sixers-front-office-nba-trade-rumors-brett-brown-doc-rivers

Guys, this isn't just fall out from one bad series...This is a systemic issue.



...In his rookie season, Simmons took 218 field goal attempts that would qualify as mid-range— beginning 10 feet from the basket and going out to the three-point line — in 91 games, counting the postseason.
The following season, he also played a total of 91 games — and took 99 shots from that same range. In 2019-2020, he took a total of 30 mid-range shots in 57 games. If that’s not a red flag, you’re colorblind.
This past season, he got a bit more adventurous, taking 44 mid-range shots in 70 total games, but that still works out to one about every other game, which is laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic.

Add it up: 218 mid-range attempts in 91 games his rookie season, 173 in three seasons since. And no one in the front office batted an eyelash until now.

[Gagnrath]

Many may not agree, but Diaw was the X-Factor in the beautiful game, his passing was contagious. You know what to expect from Timmy, he anchors the defense, Manu and Tony with their tenacity to win games when it mattered most. And yes Nephew’s ability to neutralize LeBron. But Diaw unselfishness of finding people, good to great shot. That’s what Simmons brings. Of course he needs to knock down shots, but his passing skills of finding people will have that Diaw effect is how I see it, not to mention him defending mobile bigs like LeBron, Giannis, Tatum, Kawhi where Spurs missed with Aldridge.

Diaw wasn't aggressive and sometimes hesitated to find offense for himself, Diaw probably hurt his career and definitely hurt his money by regularly coming into the season a bit out of shape and after he had a couple of million in the bank arguably didn't care as much about basketball, but he didn't quit on his team and he was never paid like a star. He was always a complimentary player who arguably never really lived up to his potential.

[John B]

Diaw wasn't aggressive and sometimes hesitated to find offense for himself, Diaw probably hurt his career and definitely hurt his money by regularly coming into the season a bit out of shape and after he had a couple of million in the bank arguably didn't care as much about basketball, but he didn't quit on his team and he was never paid like a star. He was always a complimentary player who arguably never really lived up to his potential.

I think he finally redeemed himself with a title with the Spurs. Again his beautiful passing is what I think we will see from Simmons, and it’s going to be infectious. Lately it’s been heavy iso from Demar and even DJ. The flow and rythm stops. With Philly, the ball also stops in Embiid. In the Spurs, there is really no dominant player anymore (assuming DJ gets traded). I think we’ll see more passing and motion offense with Simmons. Just my take.

[exstatic]

Great post. But what was diaws max contract? In today's NBA he's worth same salary as dj or white...paying him what he's due ties up any team from putting the necessary assets he needs to win.

Diaw wasn’t an All D player and DPOY candidate on top of being a big man creator like Simmons is.

[ismael-robert]

No but he could hit the 3...there's a YouTube video showing he played d when it mattered n frustrated LeBron in playoffs

[exstatic]

No but he could hit the 3...there's a YouTube video showing he played d when it mattered n frustrated LeBron in playoffs

Playing D is not at all the same as being All Defense team multiple times. He was good against LeBron when we surprised MIA in 2013 by playing off him. When we tried that during the next season, he wa UNsurprised, and roasted Diaw.

[XDT76]

You don't have to become a contender as an immediate result of a trade for it to be worth it. It's weird that you considered that a good counter. Teams make trades like that repeatedly like Chicago giving up picks for Vuc or the Heat for Dragic. You take a step with one move then make others.

The "The Spurs would never do this" rebuttal doesn't work. We don't have to care about PATFO's culture. We discussing the value and impact of a Simmons trade, not betting on its reality. That's not delusional. Thinking that Murray is equal to or better than Simmons is.

Whether the Spurs want to trade for him or not, there are many hypothetical trades where bringing him in is a no-brainer. There are reasons to not trade for him, but the prices being discussed in recent pages isn't one of them. People don't realize how disposable or at least easily replaceable most of the roster is now that the Spurs are a mediocre team. For example, five years ago, a Vassell-level prospect would've been pure gold for the Spurs. Now they can expect to draft one every year. They can trade him and just draft a new mid-first three-and-D wing next year or at worst in two years. It's no big deal. White was a late-round guy who played like a mid-round guy. That was a huge boon back when all SA had was late-round picks. Now they have mid-round picks every year and can try to draft a guy there rather than clinging to their previous steal. Folks need to accept what being in this new era of the team means and stop thinking this is just a pit stop on the way to a quick and inevitable return to the playoff streak.

I don't understand your logic, according to your reasoning Ben Simmons could also be found every other draft. He is a top 3 draft playing like a mid lottery. You don't pay $40m to say this guy is not the number 1 guy and is expected not to give the team a fighting chance to the championship. We are suppose to expect him to be a second fiddle and get another first fiddle? So how much do we pay him $60m? Paying $90m to $100m for 2 players? What is your vision of the team after the trade? So many ppl blasted DDR even he is okay during clutch, yet we should get someone who back down in crunch time to lead our team? It's not the skill that is of concern it's the mentality. That is often the difference between a winner and a almost winner. Ben Simmons definitely belongs in the latter category. I don't see his value to the team.

[XDT76]

I think he finally redeemed himself with a title with the Spurs. Again his beautiful passing is what I think we will see from Simmons, and it’s going to be infectious. Lately it’s been heavy iso from Demar and even DJ. The flow and rythm stops. With Philly, the ball also stops in Embiid. In the Spurs, there is really no dominant player anymore (assuming DJ gets traded). I think we’ll see more passing and motion offense with Simmons. Just my take.

One player does not make a motion offense, you need everyone to move and pass to the best option. If the team depends on a guy to create, the ball needs to go back to him or he needs to hog the ball until a good opportunity opens up.

[jjspur]

I think he finally redeemed himself with a title with the Spurs. Again his beautiful passing is what I think we will see from Simmons, and it’s going to be infectious. Lately it’s been heavy iso from Demar and even DJ. The flow and rythm stops. With Philly, the ball also stops in Embiid. In the Spurs, there is really no dominant player anymore (assuming DJ gets traded). I think we’ll see more passing and motion offense with Simmons. Just my take.

I agree Diaw was a really good player for the spurs and he fit in perfectly with the players we had at the time, but I recall we got him after Charlotte bought him out. he did not take up 30-35 % of the total team salary like Simmons would do. Simmons was surrounded by decent players in Philly yet he still managed to help the team fail in the playoffs. The guy is good just not 30-35 % of a teams salary cap good. Thats reserved for players like Durrant and Curry who have a history of excelling in the playoffs when it really really counts.

[Chinook]

I don't understand your logic, according to your reasoning Ben Simmons could also be found every other draft.

Seeing as I never said or suggested this, I can understand why you'd find that confusing. A team actually can't be expected to draft an All-Star every other draft. Now if you mean every other draft has an All-Star somewhere in it, that's actually a low estimate. It's more like every draft has an average of two. Regardless, the Spurs haven't drafted an All Star since Kawhi. Keeping their picks and assuming that's going to lead to a guy of Simmons' caliber is absurd.

[Chinook]

Simmons and Diaw aren't remotely similar. Simmons is a down-hill play-maker. He has a good BBIQ, so that's Diaw-esque. But he wouldn't be a "move the ball guy". He'd be the "break down the defense" guy.

[John B]

My Diaw-Simmons comparison is the extra passes, finding good for better shot. It would be infectious, reminiscent of the beautiful game, I hope.

[Dex]

My Diaw-Simmons comparison is the extra passes, finding good for better shot. It would be infectious, reminiscent of the beautiful game, I hope.

I would argue that Diaw was able to break down defenses easier and get those passes because he was also a threat to score, both from the post and deep. He hit a lot of big threes for us.

The book is out on Simmons now...give him space, take away his drive and passing lanes, and let him try to beat you. Chances are, he is just going to take himself out of the offense and go stand in the dunker's spot, at which point you've effectively turned the game into 5-on-4.

[acoelho1]

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/sixers/ben-simmons-sixers-front-office-nba-trade-rumors-brett-brown-doc-rivers

Guys, this isn't just fall out from one bad series...This is a systemic issue.

This is the crux of the issue here in that Simmons has been unwilling to take those open shots. It's all mental with him and unlike Giannis who takes the shots (even at a poor percentage) from the midrange and 3, at least he is willing to do it despite his limitations. If Simmons with better mechanics is not willing to take those open looks, it puts so much pressure on the offense that the other aspects of his game that are a positive become mute. Clearly, whatever his issues are go beyond mechanics and losing 2 or 3 assets and draft compensation seems too much of a risk on a player that no one will be able to confirm if he will ever overcome this issue.

If an NBA team employs a player that’s unable to do something, that player doesn’t stay very long. Unable and unwilling are different situations, but the result is the same. The job doesn’t get done. The Sixers were blinded by Simmons’ potential for two seasons, and it could cost them dearly.

[XDT76]

Seeing as I never said or suggested this, I can understand why you'd find that confusing. A team actually can't be expected to draft an All-Star every other draft. Now if you mean every other draft has an All-Star somewhere in it, that's actually a low estimate. It's more like every draft has an average of two. Regardless, the Spurs haven't drafted an All Star since Kawhi. Keeping their picks and assuming that's going to lead to a guy of Simmons' caliber is absurd.

You said our guys are easily replaceable as they are mostly mid lottery level player, I am saying so is Ben Simmons so what is the obsessed over him? Just because he was a no. 1 pick once upon a time? You can argue how high level his passing or defence is, but if that guy does not have a mental fortitude to win he is not a high level player period.

[Chinook]

You said our guys are easily replaceable as they are mostly mid lottery level player, I am saying so is Ben Simmons so what is the obsessed over him? Just because he was a no. 1 pick once upon a time? You can argue how high level his passing or defence is, but if that guy does not have a mental fortitude to win he is not a high level player period.

You're all kinds of wrong to equate Simmons to guys like Walker and Vassell. Agree to disagree or whatever, but thinking an All-Defense guy is replaceable isn't a good platform for conversation

[offset formation]

I would argue that Diaw was able to break down defenses easier and get those passes because he was also a threat to score, both from the post and deep. He hit a lot of big threes for us.

The book is out on Simmons now...give him space, take away his drive and passing lanes, and let him try to beat you. Chances are, he is just going to take himself out of the offense and go stand in the dunker's spot, at which point you've effectively turned the game into 5-on-4.

5 on 3 if Poeltl is also in the game, and you already have 1 player defensively sagging into the paint. you are nothing more than a perimeter team at this point and undoubtedly a poor one if the perimeter defenders know that they have lots of help behind them.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

5 on 3 if Poeltl is also in the game, and you already have 1 player defensively sagging into the paint. you are nothing more than a perimeter team at this point and undoubtedly a poor one if the perimeter defenders know that they have lots of help behind them.

There will be no beautiful game if you main creator is flawed like that.

[talkspurs]

Context: most of the contenders or pseudo ones lack the expendable assets and because of his lack of shooting, in some cases it'd take reorienting the roster, so that takes them out and leaves teams non playoff/glamor market teams like this, who either don't have or are unwilling to send them a centerpiece and need to determine how much draft capital they'd be willing to part with.

Bowen was a specialist, who lacked the versatility of Simmons. Wall and Love lost value as aging players who'd suffered career altering injuries. As long as Simmons avoids the latter, he'll maintain solid resale value going forward. DeRozan, a less desirable player, just went for what ultimately might amount to two mid-late 1sts and a 2nd.

The point is, they're not worth reading into. He's a complimentary star.




I don't mean at the moment, I meant their goal is something like that. If they luck into something better, great. But they're not going to willingly go through what the 76ers did or the Thunder are in the midst of, to potentially attain it.

The context is most teams dont value him. There are enough teams that are contenders that still have assets.

Simmons does not have as much versatility as you want to imply. If he was versatile then he would not need to have teams completely remade around him. he would fit into the team because he is versatile. Your trying to use it as haveing many skills. Even that I would say is a stretch. his defense and passing are overated. Put him as the main guy and he crumbles. Even second tear he needs somone else that can pass (philly tried doing him as main facilitor and it failed).

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

My biggest issue with Simmons is that he hasn't proven that he's a winner. Kind of in the same vein of LMA and DDR, I don't think this team needs to mortgage the future for a "star" who's never led a team deep into the post season.

[TD 21]

The context is most teams dont value him. There are enough teams that are contenders that still have assets.

Simmons does not have as much versatility as you want to imply. If he was versatile then he would not need to have teams completely remade around him. he would fit into the team because he is versatile. Your trying to use it as haveing many skills. Even that I would say is a stretch. his defense and passing are overated. Put him as the main guy and he crumbles. Even second tear he needs somone else that can pass (philly tried doing him as main facilitor and it failed).

Both untrue and I said expendable assets, as in draft capital and valuable youth not yet playing a significant role.

I said defensively. He can guard 1-4 and even 5 in certain matchups; Bowen couldn't do that. I also said he's a complimentary star and his play making is more so transition oriented, as opposed to half court/pnr.

[LittleCriminal]

Simmons is not coming to play for The San Antonio Spurs... Get over it already. Geez

[KingKev]

Simmons is not coming to play for The San Antonio Spurs... Get over it already. Geez

This deserves a Scola bump.

[XDT76]

You're all kinds of wrong to equate Simmons to guys like Walker and Vassell. Agree to disagree or whatever, but thinking an All-Defense guy is replaceable isn't a good platform for conversation

Guess what any trade with Ben Simmons would centre on DjM and they both have the same DWS last year with the Spurs having a much worse record. So we trade an all defensive player for another and suppose to throw in a few more draft picks and players? On top of that we need to pay more than twice for Ben who would not be a number one fiddle and requires a specific set of players around him? Go figure does that make sense. Defensive players are not as valuable nowadays they could be switched away from the player they are suppose to guard, that's why we see Mills guarding KD and Forbes being attacked over and over a game.

[talkspurs]

Both untrue and I said expendable assets, as in draft capital and valuable youth not yet playing a significant role.

I said defensively. He can guard 1-4 and even 5 in certain matchups; Bowen couldn't do that. I also said he's a complimentary star and his play making is more so transition oriented, as opposed to half court/pnr.

Actuaually both are true.

Bowen DID guard 1-4. he would guard the other teams best wing usually but would even match up with dirk. I think he would guard some smaller 5s as well but remember 4s there would be 5s now.

[FutureMan]

My biggest issue with Simmons is that he hasn't proven that he's a winner. Kind of in the same vein of LMA and DDR, I don't think this team needs to mortgage the future for a "star" who's never led a team deep into the post season.

This is exactly the reason the Spurs can’t give up any of their own 1st’s. They will need to tank to get someone who can actually lead this team forward. Simmons will never be able to do it. Interestingly enough almost every small market team is being lead by their own lottery pick.

[Maddog]

Guess what any trade with Ben Simmons would centre on DjM and they both have the same DWS last year with the Spurs having a much worse record. So we trade an all defensive player for another and suppose to throw in a few more draft picks and players? On top of that we need to pay more than twice for Ben who would not be a number one fiddle and requires a specific set of players around him? Go figure does that make sense. Defensive players are not as valuable nowadays they could be switched away from the player they are suppose to guard, that's why we see Mills guarding KD and Forbes being attacked over and over a game.

And guess what?
DJM is younger (albeit by a few months) has almost the same stats per 100 PPG, RBG and only slightly lower APG as Simmons. Yeah you can watch a game and see Simmons awesome potential, but the guy has regressed and the flaw in his game is huge. And as you point out DJM is a lot cheaper. I'm not saying they are equal, but Simmons is owed a huge amount and his lack of a shot (outside the paint including FTs is hard to get around.

[Chinook]

Guess what any trade with Ben Simmons would centre on DjM and they both have the same DWS last year with the Spurs having a much worse record. So we trade an all defensive player for another and suppose to throw in a few more draft picks and players? On top of that we need to pay more than twice for Ben who would not be a number one fiddle and requires a specific set of players around him? Go figure does that make sense. Defensive players are not as valuable nowadays they could be switched away from the player they are suppose to guard, that's why we see Mills guarding KD and Forbes being attacked over and over a game.

Um... So you're being disingenuous as shit right now. You're trying to cherry-pick defensive win-shares because that's the only stat that's even close. Simmons basically laps DJM in the other defensive stats. Hell, if you control for minutes, Simmons' gap over Murray in DWS is just as big. What makes it even funnier is that you can see how by those same metrics, Simmons is a WAY better offensive player than Murray is, despite Ben not being able to shoot.

Again, floating boats, found remotes and all that. But no, there's not an objective case for Simmons being down to Murray's or anyone else's on the team's level. White's the only one remotely close. You have to cherry-pick stats and take them out of context to even start coming to that idea.

[TD 21]

Actuaually both are true.

Bowen DID guard 1-4. he would guard the other teams best wing usually but would even match up with dirk. I think he would guard some smaller 5s as well but remember 4s there would be 5s now.

You're conflating teams being unwilling and/or unable to pay a king's ransom with "the league not valuing him".

I knew you'd bring that up, but Nowitzki was the exception. Bowen almost always defended 1-3 and wasn't as versatile as Simmons for obvious reasons.

[XDT76]

Um... So you're being disingenuous as shit right now. You're trying to cherry-pick defensive win-shares because that's the only stat that's even close. Simmons basically laps DJM in the other defensive stats. Hell, if you control for minutes, Simmons' gap over Murray in DWS is just as big. What makes it even funnier is that you can see how by those same metrics, Simmons is a WAY better offensive player than Murray is, despite Ben not being able to shoot.

Again, floating boats, found remotes and all that. But no, there's not an objective case for Simmons being down to Murray's or anyone else's on the team's level. White's the only one remotely close. You have to cherry-pick stats and take them out of context to even start coming to that idea.

What stats if you see defensive rebound% steal% they are all close. I will give you blk%. DWS is about how many wins you get for your team how is it cherry picking? It's about overall influence base on defence. You avoided some many points, like I said Ben is going to earn $30m to $40m and could not be counted as the go to guy and crunch time, why don't you defend that? His mental weakness? His non-development in the past 4 years? Who is cherry picking here? You zoomed in him as all NBA defense player DjM was also an all defensive player. I raised so many points that you just skirt around to try and win your point, I will just leave it as that.

[cd021]

Three is probably the magic number and I suspect it'd be moreso about the caliber/protections and finding a third team to provide them with a quality veteran PG to help keep them in pseudo contention while still having enough assets to be in the game for Lillard, Beal, if/when.

I've brought up similar variations. I'd be steadfast on protecting top one throughout and would prefer a '25 1st to a '24 1st because of the possibility of the Bulls '25 1st.

Outside of that, I agree it's not that much when factoring in the likelihood of those picks becoming mid-lateish lottery ones.

I'd rather give up a Walker IV and a lesser 1st (like the Suns protected '24) than Vassell, who's importance would increase exponentially with an expedited timeline.


Presuming relative health, of course.

I changed the '24 1st to the Bulls 2025 1st in an updated trade scenario a few posts later. Three firsts, including a potentially high 2022 1st and a couple of far out firsts, isn't a bad haul for Philly. That said, Murray and Walker probably isn't going to help Philly win a championship, so that's a concern.

I agree, I'd much rather give up Walker an first than Vassell.

[KingKev]

I don’t actually believe there is an ounce to truth to this but let’s just hope Brian Wright knows he is trading for Ben Simmons and not Jonathon.

[acoelho1]

Um... So you're being disingenuous as shit right now..

Talk about disingenuous. Embiid’s defensive impact has no effect on Simmons numbers. Got it.

[manufan10]

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/GKmk4OZ99uGDLNWNKKz4rIWJKd8=/0x0:1844x1232/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1844x1232):format(webp):no_upsca le()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22830782/Screen_Shot_2021_08_31_at_10.30.18_PM.png

"Framework of the deal: Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Devin Vassell + a pick for Simmons.

Why it might work: The Spurs finished No. 10 in the Western Conference last year, and lost their best player in free agency when DeMar DeRozan went to the Bulls. San Antonio has collected some solid young pieces in recent years, but no true star. Simmons would immediately become the face of the franchise, and his long-term deal would give the Spurs a few years to try to add talent around him. In return, Philly would get a dynamic offensive guard in White, an awesome defensive wing with shooting ability in Vassell, and a capable point guard in Murray.
What Pounding the Rock says (https://www.poundingtherock.com/):


Parting with their presumptive starting backcourt, in addition to the promising Vassell, is a hard pill to swallow for a team that’s invested so much in their development. But the Spurs have entered asset acquisition mode this summer for a reason: the roster as constructed probably doesn’t top out as a world-beater. Simmons doesn’t get them all the way there, but he should raise their ceiling and complement many of the remaining pieces’ strengths and weaknesses. — Bruno Passos (https://twitter.com/bouncepassos)"

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/9/7/22652434/ben-simmons-trade-rumors-ideas-cavs-timberwolves-spurs-warriors

[baseline bum]

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/GKmk4OZ99uGDLNWNKKz4rIWJKd8=/0x0:1844x1232/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1844x1232):format(webp):no_upsca le()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22830782/Screen_Shot_2021_08_31_at_10.30.18_PM.png

"Framework of the deal: Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Devin Vassell + a pick for Simmons.

Why it might work: The Spurs finished No. 10 in the Western Conference last year, and lost their best player in free agency when DeMar DeRozan went to the Bulls. San Antonio has collected some solid young pieces in recent years, but no true star. Simmons would immediately become the face of the franchise, and his long-term deal would give the Spurs a few years to try to add talent around him. In return, Philly would get a dynamic offensive guard in White, an awesome defensive wing with shooting ability in Vassell, and a capable point guard in Murray.
What Pounding the Rock says (https://www.poundingtherock.com/):


Parting with their presumptive starting backcourt, in addition to the promising Vassell, is a hard pill to swallow for a team that’s invested so much in their development. But the Spurs have entered asset acquisition mode this summer for a reason: the roster as constructed probably doesn’t top out as a world-beater. Simmons doesn’t get them all the way there, but he should raise their ceiling and complement many of the remaining pieces’ strengths and weaknesses. — Bruno Passos (https://twitter.com/bouncepassos)"

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/9/7/22652434/ben-simmons-trade-rumors-ideas-cavs-timberwolves-spurs-warriors


Gross, no thanks. Having to start Walker or Forbes. :lol

[The Truth #6]

To me, the most important factor in trading for BS is not the stats, but answering the question: "will he accept playing here?" It would surely mean that Pop sticks around because no way BS comes over right as we get a new coach. I'm ok with Pop sticking around if he can focus his energy on coaxing whatever he can out of BS. BS is obviously flawed, but that's the only kind of star we are going to get.

If the Spurs could avoid trading White, and give up DJM and only two of Poetl, Walker, Vassel, or Luka, and no more than 1 of our own 1st round picks, I think it makes something to strongly consider, especially if he is ok playing for Pop in SA.

And lastly, from an asset perspective, which is typically floundered by the FO, but regardless, if he comes here to get rehabilitated, so to speak, and ups his value somehow, and doesn't want to stick around but then we can trade him, it's an unusual scenario to consider. Being Klutch, it would likely be a screw job like with how they got the Brow out of New Orleans, but it's another way to consider the trade: can we get more for him then we gave up? I'm not overly enthusiastic about this as an approach, but it should be considered. Again, it centers around will he play here and how much do we have to give up. Just throwing around ideas. If someone is triggered by this, talk to your therapist.

Lastly, as for his limitations, I think the fanbase should accept that he is likely the best we can get in a trade. And if the FO fully built around him, well, at least it's finally a direction.

[Mr. Body]

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/GKmk4OZ99uGDLNWNKKz4rIWJKd8=/0x0:1844x1232/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1844x1232):format(webp):no_upsca le()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22830782/Screen_Shot_2021_08_31_at_10.30.18_PM.png

"Framework of the deal: Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Devin Vassell + a pick for Simmons.

Why it might work: The Spurs finished No. 10 in the Western Conference last year, and lost their best player in free agency when DeMar DeRozan went to the Bulls. San Antonio has collected some solid young pieces in recent years, but no true star. Simmons would immediately become the face of the franchise, and his long-term deal would give the Spurs a few years to try to add talent around him. In return, Philly would get a dynamic offensive guard in White, an awesome defensive wing with shooting ability in Vassell, and a capable point guard in Murray.
What Pounding the Rock says (https://www.poundingtherock.com/):


Parting with their presumptive starting backcourt, in addition to the promising Vassell, is a hard pill to swallow for a team that’s invested so much in their development. But the Spurs have entered asset acquisition mode this summer for a reason: the roster as constructed probably doesn’t top out as a world-beater. Simmons doesn’t get them all the way there, but he should raise their ceiling and complement many of the remaining pieces’ strengths and weaknesses. — Bruno Passos (https://twitter.com/bouncepassos)"

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/9/7/22652434/ben-simmons-trade-rumors-ideas-cavs-timberwolves-spurs-warriors


Sports media trying really, really hard to generate a market for Ben Simmons. Ludicrous.

[CGD]

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/GKmk4OZ99uGDLNWNKKz4rIWJKd8=/0x0:1844x1232/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1844x1232):format(webp):no_upsca le()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22830782/Screen_Shot_2021_08_31_at_10.30.18_PM.png

"Framework of the deal: Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Devin Vassell + a pick for Simmons.

Why it might work: The Spurs finished No. 10 in the Western Conference last year, and lost their best player in free agency when DeMar DeRozan went to the Bulls. San Antonio has collected some solid young pieces in recent years, but no true star. Simmons would immediately become the face of the franchise, and his long-term deal would give the Spurs a few years to try to add talent around him. In return, Philly would get a dynamic offensive guard in White, an awesome defensive wing with shooting ability in Vassell, and a capable point guard in Murray.
What Pounding the Rock says (https://www.poundingtherock.com/):


Parting with their presumptive starting backcourt, in addition to the promising Vassell, is a hard pill to swallow for a team that’s invested so much in their development. But the Spurs have entered asset acquisition mode this summer for a reason: the roster as constructed probably doesn’t top out as a world-beater. Simmons doesn’t get them all the way there, but he should raise their ceiling and complement many of the remaining pieces’ strengths and weaknesses. — Bruno Passos (https://twitter.com/bouncepassos)"

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/9/7/22652434/ben-simmons-trade-rumors-ideas-cavs-timberwolves-spurs-warriors


Nah, still think the framework of the deal is Murray, Walker, Amino, and protected 1st.

Unless 1. Embid is suddenly cool with a deal featuring future picks, and/or 2. SAC or MIN come off their insistence of not including one of their best players, Spurs really don’t have incentive to add more.

Just sit back and wait for that uncomfortable Philly training camp.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/GKmk4OZ99uGDLNWNKKz4rIWJKd8=/0x0:1844x1232/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:1844x1232):format(webp):no_upsca le()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22830782/Screen_Shot_2021_08_31_at_10.30.18_PM.png

"Framework of the deal: Dejounte Murray, Derrick White, Devin Vassell + a pick for Simmons.

Why it might work: The Spurs finished No. 10 in the Western Conference last year, and lost their best player in free agency when DeMar DeRozan went to the Bulls. San Antonio has collected some solid young pieces in recent years, but no true star. Simmons would immediately become the face of the franchise, and his long-term deal would give the Spurs a few years to try to add talent around him. In return, Philly would get a dynamic offensive guard in White, an awesome defensive wing with shooting ability in Vassell, and a capable point guard in Murray.
What Pounding the Rock says (https://www.poundingtherock.com/):


Parting with their presumptive starting backcourt, in addition to the promising Vassell, is a hard pill to swallow for a team that’s invested so much in their development. But the Spurs have entered asset acquisition mode this summer for a reason: the roster as constructed probably doesn’t top out as a world-beater. Simmons doesn’t get them all the way there, but he should raise their ceiling and complement many of the remaining pieces’ strengths and weaknesses. — Bruno Passos (https://twitter.com/bouncepassos)"

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2021/9/7/22652434/ben-simmons-trade-rumors-ideas-cavs-timberwolves-spurs-warriors



I'd do this deal if the pick is Chicago's.

Probably ask for Paul Reed back, as Philly have 13 guaranteed contracts anyway (14 with Reed's non-guaranteed).

Spurs would need another trade for a starting PG after this one.

[Sugus]

BS is obviously flawed, but that's the only kind of star we are going to get.

This is such an insane argument to me.... Exactly the kind of thinking that settles a franchise into mediocrity for years, if not decades.

Why are you so certain that the Spurs can't do better, can't get a non-flawed star? Why is the (false dichotomy) only option here to take Philly's sloppy seconds, and send out our own picks in the process, when those same picks can get you a player of Simmons' caliber that isn't so fundamentally flawed at the core aspect of NBA basketball? The only argument I see against this is "oh, the Spurs don't want to tank for that talent", but is the state of the current team so far from getting us a top lottery pick? No, it certainly isn't, and in any case, getting Simmons would be the move that prevents the Spurs from tanking for at least 4-5 years.

Simmons is the poster boy for the exact opposite mentality of "pounding the rock" that the Spurs have always held on to, and a worse version of the DeRozan experiment. Crazy to see folks wanting to get shackled up again after just getting off those chains this very offseason, tbh.

[Leetonidas]

This is such an insane argument to me.... Exactly the kind of thinking that settles a franchise into mediocrity for years, if not decades.

Why are you so certain that the Spurs can't do better, can't get a non-flawed star? Why is the (false dichotomy) only option here to take Philly's sloppy seconds, and send out our own picks in the process, when those same picks can get you a player of Simmons' caliber that isn't so fundamentally flawed at the core aspect of NBA basketball? The only argument I see against this is "oh, the Spurs don't want to tank for that talent", but is the state of the current team so far from getting us a top lottery pick? No, it certainly isn't, and in any case, getting Simmons would be the move that prevents the Spurs from tanking for at least 4-5 years.

Simmons is the poster boy for the exact opposite mentality of "pounding the rock" that the Spurs have always held on to, and a worse version of the DeRozan experiment. Crazy to see folks wanting to get shackled up again after just getting off those chains this very offseason, tbh.

I think it's more insane that a lot of you are fine with the current roster. Newsflash my guy - we have already been settled in mediocrity for years. We have no top prospects and no guys that look like they have all star potential. How some of you think standing pat and doing nothing is better than taking a gamble is beyond me.

[Joseph Kony]

Sports media trying really, really hard to generate a market for Ben Simmons. Ludicrous.

How stupid are you? :lol yeah man, 29 teams in the league have 0 interest in a young 3 time all-star that was second in DPOY voting last year. stfu already dude. we get it, you're top sniffer #1, and you know exactly what our FO and all other FOs in the league are thinking, and every conversation here about potential trades is stupid, because we have our savior bryn forbes.

you consistently post some of the shittiest sniffer takes on ST. If you dont want to talk about Simmons then fuck off already and make some more shitty "you son of a bitch i'm in!" threads

[The Truth #6]

This is such an insane argument to me.... Exactly the kind of thinking that settles a franchise into mediocrity for years, if not decades.

Why are you so certain that the Spurs can't do better, can't get a non-flawed star? Why is the (false dichotomy) only option here to take Philly's sloppy seconds, and send out our own picks in the process, when those same picks can get you a player of Simmons' caliber that isn't so fundamentally flawed at the core aspect of NBA basketball? The only argument I see against this is "oh, the Spurs don't want to tank for that talent", but is the state of the current team so far from getting us a top lottery pick? No, it certainly isn't, and in any case, getting Simmons would be the move that prevents the Spurs from tanking for at least 4-5 years.

Simmons is the poster boy for the exact opposite mentality of "pounding the rock" that the Spurs have always held on to, and a worse version of the DeRozan experiment. Crazy to see folks wanting to get shackled up again after just getting off those chains this very offseason, tbh.

I mean, we can hope to luck into getting a flawed star through the draft at around the 7-13 seed, or at least someone we hope to develop. But that’s still mediocrity. Or hope we get a generational talent through the draft if we get a higher pick, but that’s still a passive/waiting approach. It sometimes works but it’s uncertainty also.

[Mr. Body]

How stupid are you? :lol yeah man, 29 teams in the league have 0 interest in a young 3 time all-star that was second in DPOY voting last year. stfu already dude. we get it, you're top sniffer #1, and you know exactly what our FO and all other FOs in the league are thinking, and every conversation here about potential trades is stupid, because we have our savior bryn forbes.

you consistently post some of the shittiest sniffer takes on ST. If you dont want to talk about Simmons then fuck off already and make some more shitty "you son of a bitch i'm in!" threads

Yep, there's no market for Simmons. Y'all some of the dumbest posters in the world, much less basketball, much less the NBA. You're embarrassing yourselves with these dumbass trades when the Spurs aren't even close to interested in the moron and he's going to wind up in Minnesota.

What a bunch of weepy slapdicks you all are.

:lol

[Joseph Kony]

Yep, there's no market for Simmons. Y'all some of the dumbest posters in the world, much less basketball, much less the NBA. You're embarrassing yourselves with these dumbass trades when the Spurs aren't even close to interested in the moron and he's going to wind up in Minnesota.

What a bunch of weepy slapdicks you all are.

:lol
:lol Mrs. Body
:lol "you son of a bitch, I'm in!"
:lol Forbes was a good signing
:lol consistently shitty takes
:lol biggest sniffer on the forum
:lol low IQ retard

The opinion of a sniffer like you means jack shit. You did some serious mental gymnastics to rationalize the Primo pick and you applauded the Bryn Forbes signing and you have the audacity to try and shit talk anyone else here? You're a fucking clown :lol

You literally have ZERO clue what the Spurs are doing or thinking so shut your faggot ass up and quit pretending like you know anything you fucking retard. Stick to what you know and go fluff PATFO ballsacks in another thread and leave the trade discussions to posters who actually want to discuss it.

[Atl Spur]

Yep, there's no market for Simmons. Y'all some of the dumbest posters in the world, much less basketball, much less the NBA. You're embarrassing yourselves with these dumbass trades when the Spurs aren't even close to interested in the moron and he's going to wind up in Minnesota.

What a bunch of weepy slapdicks you all are.

:lol

You sure?

[Ocotillo]

Nielsen is now on the bench. He's an Aussie. Getting ready to add an Aussie player?

[Sugus]

I think it's more insane that a lot of you are fine with the current roster. Newsflash my guy - we have already been settled in mediocrity for years.

Which part of my post implied that I'm "fine" with the current roster? I specifically said the roster is closer to a tank than it is to complimenting a flawed player like Simmons into anything other than first round fodder. You walked head-into the false dichotomy I talked about, of wanting to trade for Simmons just to "do something!!!" ignoring there's multiple avenues for improvement that don't involve trading for such a headcase and wasting our picks in the process. And further, you acknowledge we've been mediocre for years, yet want to go back there.... Stockholm syndrome, all too real...


We have no top prospects and no guys that look like they have all star potential. How some of you think standing pat and doing nothing is better than taking a gamble is beyond me.

Disagree, Keldon perfectly has the potential and game to make an AS team, especially coming off a Gold medal campaign. But I don't disagree with your overarching point. What is beyond me is why you think the only other option is "standing pat and doing nothing", both when that hasn't been the Spurs FO's MO this off-season, and when it hasn't been the sentiment of fans around the forum, tbh. Truly a strawman.

Think of it like this: Simmons couldn't get it done on a team with an MVP level player, an All-Star level wing, and good roleplayers to support him; how would the Spurs build a roster that exceeds this level of help and gets the Spurs somewhere (meaningful), when they'll already have to sacrifice multiple of what little assets they have, in order to get Simmons in the first place? Walk me through it, 'cause I'm not seeing it, tbh.

[Sugus]

1435685583549050885

Pound that rock, Benny boi :lol

[DPG21920]

If he keeps lowering his value maybe we can trade Thad + Jakob + Aminu for him lol

[Mr. Body]

:lol Mrs. Body
:lol "you son of a bitch, I'm in!"
:lol Forbes was a good signing
:lol consistently shitty takes
:lol biggest sniffer on the forum
:lol low IQ retard

The opinion of a sniffer like you means jack shit. You did some serious mental gymnastics to rationalize the Primo pick and you applauded the Bryn Forbes signing and you have the audacity to try and shit talk anyone else here? You're a fucking clown :lol

You literally have ZERO clue what the Spurs are doing or thinking so shut your faggot ass up and quit pretending like you know anything you fucking retard. Stick to what you know and go fluff PATFO ballsacks in another thread and leave the trade discussions to posters who actually want to discuss it.

Bro, you got nuthin honey if you're screaming in a pipsqueak rage while thinking this tread ain't fulla 1000% Texas horse and steer shit mixed together.

Just absolute slapdick thread, every one. Just a joke.

[Mr. Body]

1435685583549050885

Pound that rock, Benny boi :lol

Ben Simmons is like trying to pass around chlamydia. Only Minnesota wants to jump on that dick.

[Sugus]

I mean, we can hope to luck into getting a flawed star through the draft at around the 7-13 seed, or at least someone we hope to develop. But that’s still mediocrity. Or hope we get a generational talent through the draft if we get a higher pick, but that’s still a passive/waiting approach. It sometimes works but it’s uncertainty also.

The Spurs are above-average at drafting, pretty elite by most accounts, so building through the draft is less of a "luck" plan and more of a developmental one (well, as much as the draft can be predicted/analyzed anyways I guess, there's always gonna be a Fultz or Darko in most drafts) for them. And again, the current roster is much closer to joining the tank race after the AS-break than it is to fighting for a play-in anyways, so barring a miraculous jump from one of our youngings, we probably won't have to depend on "getting lucky around the 7-13 seed".

My quarrel is exactly with the mentality in your second sentence, about seeing the draft as a "passive" approach that's somehow inherently worse than an "active" approach would be. Look how most trade-hungry teams and FOs end up; the Morey Rockettes, the Ainge Celtics, the Presti Thunder... All end up imploding and over-trading their way into corners. Not saying the Spurs would be like that in this case, just saying it's disingenuous to look down on drafting as a strategy for success, especially considering SanAn's market and ability to attract FOs.

If we were Miami, I'd go "yeah sure, get Simmons and some other stars will want to join him, the pieces will fall into place for us". But it isn't. The uncertainty of the draft is a necessary evil for small market, star-deprived teams. And as I told the other poster, it's not like Simmons alone will get the Spurs anywhere but the mediocrity we've finally escaped this off-season, so given we lack other tradeable assets beyond our picks (and it'd be superbly dumb of the FO to mortgage our own picks on an unproven core), I don't see Simmons in SanAn as a positive for anyone involved.

[Leetonidas]

Which part of my post implied that I'm "fine" with the current roster? I specifically said the roster is closer to a tank than it is to complimenting a flawed player like Simmons into anything other than first round fodder. You walked head-into the false dichotomy I talked about, of wanting to trade for Simmons just to "do something!!!" ignoring there's multiple avenues for improvement that don't involve trading for such a headcase and wasting our picks in the process. And further, you acknowledge we've been mediocre for years, yet want to go back there.... Stockholm syndrome, all too real...



Disagree, Keldon perfectly has the potential and game to make an AS team, especially coming off a Gold medal campaign. But I don't disagree with your overarching point. What is beyond me is why you think the only other option is "standing pat and doing nothing", both when that hasn't been the Spurs FO's MO this off-season, and when it hasn't been the sentiment of fans around the forum, tbh. Truly a strawman.

Think of it like this: Simmons couldn't get it done on a team with an MVP level player, an All-Star level wing, and good roleplayers to support him; how would the Spurs build a roster that exceeds this level of help and gets the Spurs somewhere (meaningful), when they'll already have to sacrifice multiple of what little assets they have, in order to get Simmons in the first place? Walk me through it, 'cause I'm not seeing it, tbh.


Not really a point in walking you through it, because clearly we see things very differently in how the Spurs should approach their uncertain future. And that's fine. But I think you are vastly overestimating my value of Simmons. I never said gut the entire roster for him or trade 4 first rounders like Morey wants. I also don't think he is an MVP level player that would be some kind of franchise savior. Nor do I want the Spurs to acquire him just to "do something."

I think a lot of people here are severely underrating Simmons now because of a recent poor showing in the playoffs. He isn't a three time all-star and DPOY runner up because he's trash. His game does have limitations, and maybe he has been unwilling to work on that. But even still, he is an elite defensive player with elite playmaking skills that raises the floor of our roster. I don't think the Spurs should bend over backwards in a trade for him, but when you have a young all-star locked into a long term contract that fits the age of your core and wants out from his current team, you make an attempt to get him. Yes, we need to be thinking about the future, but the first step to becoming a better team is accumulating talent.

A lot of the negativity comes from the idea that Simmons is a headcase and a diva or whatever, and I don't necessarily disagree with that. But I also think guys understand how they are perceived in the league and I think they care about it. Id also point out that we only really see one side of the argument because of the media. Remember when Kawhi wanted out and SA was getting torn to shreds by the media because kawhi controlled the narrative? Fans of other teams were shitting on us too because of it. Can't rule out the Philly media doing the same

Again, I'm not saying go all in and do whatever it takes to get Simmons. But if you can get him for some combo of Murray/Walker/Young/1st? You do that all day. IMO. I want our team to get better, and I think players would be more willing to come to a team with an all-star guy that they know will feed them the rock.

[Chinook]

Talk about disingenuous. Embiid’s defensive impact has no effect on Simmons numbers. Got it.

No, it really wouldn't. That's not how defensive numbers work.

[Chinook]

What stats if you see defensive rebound% steal% they are all close. I will give you blk%. DWS is about how many wins you get for your team how is it cherry picking? It's about overall influence base on defence. You avoided some many points, like I said Ben is going to earn $30m to $40m and could not be counted as the go to guy and crunch time, why don't you defend that? His mental weakness? His non-development in the past 4 years? Who is cherry picking here? You zoomed in him as all NBA defense player DjM was also an all defensive player. I raised so many points that you just skirt around to try and win your point, I will just leave it as that.

DWS is an aggregate stat, and Murray's extra minutes give him an edge over Simmons in the same way they do on White. If you break it down per minute (or per-48), you can see Simmons had a higher defensive impact even in that stat. Once you start getting into stats like DBPM and D-RAPTOR, it's obviously Simmons is way better on that end (and on offense, but that's not the direct issue at hand).

I ignored the points about money because I've already talked about that multiple times in this thread. You don't win by money-balling, especially not trying to 80-20 stars. The extent to which Simmons is better than Murray is worth a ton of money. Because of the nature of maxes and the cap, there are very few players making in the upper-20s anyway. There are different tiers of max, but if you're close to the max, you get that, especially on the second contract. All this is to say that Simmons would get a max deal as a free agent right now, even if he was only $15 Million per year better than DJM. In the NFL with no max contract, that kind of evaluation would work. It almost never does in the NBA with guys with Simmons' resume. -- Of course, Simmons is actually worth his contract and Murray is not worth his on a team like the Spurs who don't have the infrastructure to use him constructively.

DJM's All-D selection was a poor choice when they made it. Other guys on the were more deserving, and unlike Murray, they continued their defensive impact with other franchises. I'm certainly not going to agree that's the same thing as getting All-D multiple years in a row for solid playoff teams.

[baseline bum]

If he keeps lowering his value maybe we can trade Thad + Jakob + Aminu for him lol

LOL. I'm all for getting Simmons cheap. If the Spurs actually have to give up value for him though, no thanks.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Of course, Simmons is actually worth his contract and Murray is not worth his on a team like the Spurs who don't have the infrastructure to use him constructively.

Wow! Chinook. This is insane.

I love to read your posts and always appreciate your input, knowledge and great writing. But I don't understand why you undervalue Murray so much. Cannot wait two more months for Murray to show his worth.

[cd021]

I'd do this deal if the pick is Chicago's.

Probably ask for Paul Reed back, as Philly have 13 guaranteed contracts anyway (14 with Reed's non-guaranteed).

Spurs would need another trade for a starting PG after this one.

I wouldn't, personally. I like Vassell's potential, rather trade a future first and bet that that player isn't going to turn out to be as good as Vassell.


Nah, still think the framework of the deal is Murray, Walker, Amino, and protected 1st.

Unless 1. Embid is suddenly cool with a deal featuring future picks, and/or 2. SAC or MIN come off their insistence of not including one of their best players, Spurs really don’t have incentive to add more.

Just sit back and wait for that uncomfortable Philly training camp.

I think Morey wouldn't take that deal off the principle. He's getting a solid point guard, an ok rotation player with some upside, a protected first and a trade filler. I don't see him taking that and would probably rather roll the dice on Simmons reporting to camp. Simmons is under contract for 4 more years, its not like he do much more than pout at training camp.

I'd think Murray, Walker, Young, a 2022 protected 1st and the 2025 Chicago pick would probably be enough tbh.

[talkspurs]

You're conflating teams being unwilling and/or unable to pay a king's ransom with "the league not valuing him".

I knew you'd bring that up, but Nowitzki was the exception. Bowen almost always defended 1-3 and wasn't as versatile as Simmons for obvious reasons.

If he was a talent like people try to say he is then other teams would be willing to give up a lot more. teams have not been willing to give up much because he is not worth much.

I think bowen also guarded horry and other small 4s. I also cant think of any Pg that simmons has guarded. I dont even know any 2s he guarded.

[james evans]

We have several guys that can't consistently hit open jumpers. We don't need another one.

[XDT76]

DWS is an aggregate stat, and Murray's extra minutes give him an edge over Simmons in the same way they do on White. If you break it down per minute (or per-48), you can see Simmons had a higher defensive impact even in that stat. Once you start getting into stats like DBPM and D-RAPTOR, it's obviously Simmons is way better on that end (and on offense, but that's not the direct issue at hand).

I ignored the points about money because I've already talked about that multiple times in this thread. You don't win by money-balling, especially not trying to 80-20 stars. The extent to which Simmons is better than Murray is worth a ton of money. Because of the nature of maxes and the cap, there are very few players making in the upper-20s anyway. There are different tiers of max, but if you're close to the max, you get that, especially on the second contract. All this is to say that Simmons would get a max deal as a free agent right now, even if he was only $15 Million per year better than DJM. In the NFL with no max contract, that kind of evaluation would work. It almost never does in the NBA with guys with Simmons' resume. -- Of course, Simmons is actually worth his contract and Murray is not worth his on a team like the Spurs who don't have the infrastructure to use him constructively.

DJM's All-D selection was a poor choice when they made it. Other guys on the were more deserving, and unlike Murray, they continued their defensive impact with other franchises. I'm certainly not going to agree that's the same thing as getting All-D multiple years in a row for solid playoff teams.

Thanks for the info on DWS, now I understand it a bit better however with the 76ers having a better record it is natural to Ben to have higher DWS. With Ben Simmons weakness (mainly his mentality) to me he is not a winner and thus the most is a glorified mid lottery pick. He would not be the lead man in a team to championship as such his pay and the NBA cap would make the Spurs a mediocre team for the next few years. We would not be able convince each other and I will agree with you to leave it as agree to disagreed.

[Chinook]

Of course, Simmons is actually worth his contract and Murray is not worth his on a team like the Spurs who don't have the infrastructure to use him constructively.

Wow! Chinook. This is insane.

I love to read your posts and always appreciate your input, knowledge and great writing. But I don't understand why you undervalue Murray so much. Cannot wait two more months for Murray to show his worth.

Murray's barely a positive player in many categories. That ST and a lot of Spurs fans talk about him like he's a budding star is why I think he needs to be traded. For his part, he needs to go to a team where he's a clear complimentary player so he can be a better version of his 2017-2018 self. For the Spurs' part, Murray's like a shitty boyfriend who's convinced his girl she can't do better than him. He's not a star. He's not a Simmons-level defender. He's not a better facilitator than DeRozan. He's not a better player than White. He's just none of those things. For all the talk about how much the Spurs had fallen for going from the likes of the Big Three to being ran through the mud by Kawhi and having to try to win with DeRozan and Aldridge, nothing indicates their fallen status more than the fans and organization being so jilted and desperate for hope and validation that they'd cling to such an obvious non-star, volume-shooting, ball hog just because he will occasionally talk about how much he likes being a Spur. I don't hate Murray, as a player or person. But his tenure with the Spurs is borderline toxic.

Thanks for the kind words though.

[The Truth #6]

The Spurs are above-average at drafting, pretty elite by most accounts, so building through the draft is less of a "luck" plan and more of a developmental one (well, as much as the draft can be predicted/analyzed anyways I guess, there's always gonna be a Fultz or Darko in most drafts) for them. And again, the current roster is much closer to joining the tank race after the AS-break than it is to fighting for a play-in anyways, so barring a miraculous jump from one of our youngings, we probably won't have to depend on "getting lucky around the 7-13 seed".

My quarrel is exactly with the mentality in your second sentence, about seeing the draft as a "passive" approach that's somehow inherently worse than an "active" approach would be. Look how most trade-hungry teams and FOs end up; the Morey Rockettes, the Ainge Celtics, the Presti Thunder... All end up imploding and over-trading their way into corners. Not saying the Spurs would be like that in this case, just saying it's disingenuous to look down on drafting as a strategy for success, especially considering SanAn's market and ability to attract FOs.

If we were Miami, I'd go "yeah sure, get Simmons and some other stars will want to join him, the pieces will fall into place for us". But it isn't. The uncertainty of the draft is a necessary evil for small market, star-deprived teams. And as I told the other poster, it's not like Simmons alone will get the Spurs anywhere but the mediocrity we've finally escaped this off-season, so given we lack other tradeable assets beyond our picks (and it'd be superbly dumb of the FO to mortgage our own picks on an unproven core), I don't see Simmons in SanAn as a positive for anyone involved.

For context, my original post was playing some devil's advocate.

I don't think the Spurs are bad at drafting and developing, but I think their ability to do so versus the rest of the league is leveling off. And I'm not for giving away years of first round picks, either. I think BS' value is getting lower and lower and as this progresses, I think there could be a value in pursuing him. And at that point, with Pop still as our HC, I have some confidence that if anyone could turn him around it would be Pop.

Am I convinced this would succeed? No. But nor am I convinced our current path is working, either. Now this year will be different and we will likely lose more games and, sure, we can see what comes of that through the draft. And to clarify further, I am not a fan of flawed stars, but I have to accept that the Big 3 was a once in a lifetime scenario that likely won't repeat. And so, here we are, a bad team in a weak market.

Another aspect: I sort of want DJM to be traded. I love his work ethic and dedication to SA, but I see his trajectory on a collision course with what the team will need, and so I'd like to move on in a year or two. Anyway, again, I'm not drastically disagreeing with you in my opinion. I like discussing the content, the personal squabbles I'm less interested in. So, happy to pursue this conversation.

[Chinook]

Thanks for the info on DWS, now I understand it a bit better however with the 76ers having a better record it is natural to Ben to have higher DWS. With Ben Simmons weakness (mainly his mentality) to me he is not a winner and thus the most is a glorified mid lottery pick. He would not be the lead man in a team to championship as such his pay and the NBA cap would make the Spurs a mediocre team for the next few years. We would not be able convince each other and I will agree with you to leave it as agree to disagreed.

We can agree to disagree. But on DWS, it's not literally the wins a club has divided up. It's a stat that "estimates" wins based on a certain formula. So it'd be more accurate to say that Philly had a better record because they had so many players with high win-shares rather than the other way around. I actually like the stat a good bit, but I don't like it divided up between offense and defense. It's a decent rule of thumb that a player who has a WS/48 above .1 is a good-to-great player and anything below that ends up being mediocre or worse. It's not a perfect stat, as it awards production as much as impact. But it's one of the better ways to see how healthy a roster is. For example, the 2014 Spurs had 14 players above that threshold, while last year's team had only four. Even 19/20's team had seven or six if you exclude Metu. That Murray has constantly struggled to get above .08 WS/48 has always been a red flag to me.

[XDT76]

We can agree to disagree. But on DWS, it's not literally the wins a club has divided up. It's a stat that "estimates" wins based on a certain formula. So it'd be more accurate to say that Philly had a better record because they had so many players with high win-shares rather than the other way around. I actually like the stat a good bit, but I don't like it divided up between offense and defense. It's a decent rule of thumb that a player who has a WS/48 above .1 is a good-to-great player and anything below that ends up being mediocre or worse. It's not a perfect stat, as it awards production as much as impact. But it's one of the better ways to see how healthy a roster is. For example, the 2014 Spurs had 14 players above that threshold, while last year's team had only four. Even 19/20's team had seven or six if you exclude Metu. That Murray has constantly struggled to get above .08 WS/48 has always been a red flag to me.

Just to be clear I am not saying Murray is our future I am only against trading for Ben Simmons.

[Chinook]

Just to be clear I am not saying Murray is our future I am only against trading for Ben Simmons.

That's fine. But just for reference, Simmons' average WS/48 is .156. When I talk about them not being close, that's a prime example of what I mean. Simmons has flaws, but he's so much better than anyone else on the roster that it's not funny. Even in the playoffs where Ben supposedly showed how limited he was, his WS/48 was .173. The Spurs would kill for a guy to be that productive when he's supposedly scrubbing it up on the court.

[exstatic]

If he was a talent like people try to say he is then other teams would be willing to give up a lot more. teams have not been willing to give up much because he is not worth much.

I think bowen also guarded horry and other small 4s. I also cant think of any Pg that simmons has guarded. I dont even know any 2s he guarded.

Uh, he did a pretty great job on Trae when me matched up.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I wouldn't, personally. I like Vassell's potential, rather trade a future first and bet that that player isn't going to turn out to be as good as Vassell.



I think Morey wouldn't take that deal off the principle. He's getting a solid point guard, an ok rotation player with some upside, a protected first and a trade filler. I don't see him taking that and would probably rather roll the dice on Simmons reporting to camp. Simmons is under contract for 4 more years, its not like he do much more than pout at training camp.

I'd think Murray, Walker, Young, a 2022 protected 1st and the 2025 Chicago pick would probably be enough tbh.

A 2022 protected first isn't saying much. What would the protections be like? If it's something like 2022 - top 5, 2023 - top 3, 2024 unprotected, then you're limiting the future trade options severely because of the Stepien rule and they will need more trades to balance the roster.

Even with Simmons on the roster this team would be on the playoff bubble at best, so I wouldn't want to give away any unprotected picks. Any middling talent on the roster - sure, bar Keldon perhaps, but unprotected picks - no, as there's a high risk in acquiring Simmons and it could all implode.

[cd021]

A 2022 protected first isn't saying much. What would the protections be like? If it's something like 2022 - top 5, 2023 - top 3, 2024 unprotected, then you're limiting the future trade options severely because of the Stepien rule and they will need more trades to balance the roster.

Even with Simmons on the roster this team would be on the playoff bubble at best, so I wouldn't want to give away any unprotected picks. Any middling talent on the roster - sure, bar Keldon perhaps, but unprotected picks - no, as there's a high risk in acquiring Simmons and it could all implode.

I was thinking top 5 protected in 2022 (which is very likely to convey), top 5 in 2023, and top 5 in top 2024.

Having a pick potentially tied up for three seasons would affect the Spurs ability to build around Simmons via trade. On the other hand, where they somehow bad enough to finish with a top 5 pick in three straight drafts, then its probably worth being hamstrung.

Then again, that means that Simmons would have grossly underperformed but at least the Spurs will be protected. Odds are that pick would convey next season so the Spurs would be free to trade their '24 and 26 picks.

I agree that the Spurs probably aren't going to make the post season next year, which makes that 2022 1st all the more of a trade chip. That paired with Murray, Walker, Young, and the Chicago pick, is a pretty competitive offer compared that's been reported.

[LkrFan]

There's too much smoke. Spurs are actually interested in trading for Simmons :wow i figured it was just nonsense tbh...

If anybody could get Ben right, it's CIA Pop. That being said, I hope he doesn't go to SATX :lol

[TD 21]

I changed the '24 1st to the Bulls 2025 1st in an updated trade scenario a few posts later. Three firsts, including a potentially high 2022 1st and a couple of far out firsts, isn't a bad haul for Philly. That said, Murray and Walker probably isn't going to help Philly win a championship, so that's a concern.

I agree, I'd much rather give up Walker an first than Vassell.

Possible solution: Include the Raptors, with Dragic going to the 76ers, Walker IV and Aminu going to the Raptors and Milton to the Spurs (might require another minor asset).

Of course, they'd have to be both desperate for a resolution and buy that Dragic has enough left in the tank to temporarily maintain their status as pseudo contenders.



If he was a talent like people try to say he is then other teams would be willing to give up a lot more. teams have not been willing to give up much because he is not worth much.

I think bowen also guarded horry and other small 4s. I also cant think of any Pg that simmons has guarded. I dont even know any 2s he guarded.

He's not a superstar and I've explained the context that has created the current predicament. That's not the same as what you're saying though.

Sure, there were exceptions, but they were just that. Simmons has guarded plenty of PG's. When they had Reddick, he had to because of the latter's inability to cross match.

[Jsmythe]

Given what happened to the Spurs with Kawhi Leonard, I can't believe that there are so many people here willing to trade for Ben Simmons when he's basically doing the same thing to the 76ers that Kawhi did to the Spurs. In my mind, the best case scenario that would happen would be:



Ben Simmons comes to the Spurs
His shooting improves steadily over the next 4 years due to Chip's coaching
The Spurs get better and better each year
By 2024-2025, the Spurs reach the WCF, Ben Simmons is 1st team all-nba, shooting 38% from 3P and 75% FT


But you know what will happen next.. After his contract is up, Simmons will flee SA and head to one of his preferred teams, probably some team in California. And the Spurs will be left in the same position that they were in when Kawhi left, which is a middle of the pack, 8th seed type team. And don't tell me that Simmons will stay in SA when Kawhi didn't stay in Toronto even after winning a championship there.

So given that Simmons would leave after 4 years, and may even force his way out after 3 years, it would only be worth it if the Spurs could win a championship in that time. But I don't think that [Simmons + Spurs young core - players and draft picks given up in the trade] is anywhere close to contending for a championship, given that [Embiid + Simmons + 76ers role players] couldn't get past Atlanta and Embiid is way better than anyone the Spurs could hope to draft/acquire in the next 3-4 years.

Thought experiment: Imagine if Kawhi were originally drafted by the Pacers, and then he forced his way out in the same way, getting traded to Toronto then leaving for the Clippers. Now imagine that he is unhappy with the Clippers and wants out (pretend he's not injured), and has named 4 other teams as his preferred destinations: GS, LAL, Nets, Heat. Would you trade for him, knowing that he doesn't want to play in SA? If not, why would you trade for Simmons?

The whole Kawhi fiasco has really turned me off to any player who tries to force their way off their team. It's one thing to request to be traded, which I can respect. But it's another to stop speaking to anyone on the team and tanking your own trade value, which both Kawhi and Simmons have done. I have no doubts that whichever team ends up with Simmons will regret it after 3-4 years when he decides it's time to get out of town and leave for greener pastures.

[james evans]

If anybody could get Ben right, it's CIA Pop. That being said, I hope he doesn't go to SATX :lol
Like he did Defrozen??

[The Truth #6]

Like he did Defrozen??

In Pop’s defense he did make him improve as a playmaker and in general efficiency, but he’s not a miracle worker.

[The Truth #6]

I think we should flip this around re: BS and forcing his way out. I’m trying to think of what superstars haven’t forced their way off teams in recent memory. Or even, who we think would stick it out in SA. Giannis and Joker are the only two that come to mind. Maybe Curry. In contrast, almost every other big time player would force his way out. The league is full of jerks or players worried about their brand and money. And that’s probably just going to be the norm. Even if we draft the next superstar I don’t expect them to be a permanent Spur.

So that’s my context for considering Simmons. Either we commit to a middle class team approach, which I’m not totally against, or we get what star we can and hope for the best. The league is a disaster in this sense. With stars destroying small markets, which is established, I think it’s a tough situation. And so considering BS, for me, is a recognition of the massively uphill challenge SA has.

[talkspurs]

Uh, he did a pretty great job on Trae when me matched up.

I will admit I am only looking at stats here but he did not really do better. His stats are what they were for the season. That includes the last game he was injured.

[talkspurs]

I think Murray will be in the league longer then Simmons.

[spurs10]

Ben "I won't shoot because you might foul me and I'm scared to death" Simmons doesn't have a lot of suitors for obvious reasons. Coming here will likely never happen, but it would be good for him. He might learn to shoot a basketball. Don't think improving is at the the top of his list. Can't Philly take his salary if he doesn't show up? Just sue him and his agent for a few hundred million.

[tbdog]

Ben "I won't shoot because you might foul me and I'm scared to death" Simmons doesn't have a lot of suitors for obvious reasons. Coming here will likely never happen, but it would be good for him. He might learn to shoot a basketball. Don't think improving is at the the top of his list. Can't Philly take his salary if he doesn't show up? Just sue him and his agent for a few hundred million.

Then sixers never win a title. Their window is open with embid and they can't replace simmons with a minimum guy.

[azarel]

Given what happened to the Spurs with Kawhi Leonard, I can't believe that there are so many people here willing to trade for Ben Simmons when he's basically doing the same thing to the 76ers that Kawhi did to the Spurs. In my mind, the best case scenario that would happen would be:



Ben Simmons comes to the Spurs
His shooting improves steadily over the next 4 years due to Chip's coaching
The Spurs get better and better each year
By 2024-2025, the Spurs reach the WCF, Ben Simmons is 1st team all-nba, shooting 38% from 3P and 75% FT


But you know what will happen next.. After his contract is up, Simmons will flee SA and head to one of his preferred teams, probably some team in California. And the Spurs will be left in the same position that they were in when Kawhi left, which is a middle of the pack, 8th seed type team. And don't tell me that Simmons will stay in SA when Kawhi didn't stay in Toronto even after winning a championship there.

So given that Simmons would leave after 4 years, and may even force his way out after 3 years, it would only be worth it if the Spurs could win a championship in that time. But I don't think that [Simmons + Spurs young core - players and draft picks given up in the trade] is anywhere close to contending for a championship, given that [Embiid + Simmons + 76ers role players] couldn't get past Atlanta and Embiid is way better than anyone the Spurs could hope to draft/acquire in the next 3-4 years.

Thought experiment: Imagine if Kawhi were originally drafted by the Pacers, and then he forced his way out in the same way, getting traded to Toronto then leaving for the Clippers. Now imagine that he is unhappy with the Clippers and wants out (pretend he's not injured), and has named 4 other teams as his preferred destinations: GS, LAL, Nets, Heat. Would you trade for him, knowing that he doesn't want to play in SA? If not, why would you trade for Simmons?

The whole Kawhi fiasco has really turned me off to any player who tries to force their way off their team. It's one thing to request to be traded, which I can respect. But it's another to stop speaking to anyone on the team and tanking your own trade value, which both Kawhi and Simmons have done. I have no doubts that whichever team ends up with Simmons will regret it after 3-4 years when he decides it's time to get out of town and leave for greener pastures.

but this is somewhat different from the kawhi situation right? in the sense that Ben Simmons didn't force his way out of philly, its that the philly organisation has openly expressed interesting in cutting ties with him... but i do agree that its similar only in the aspect that both kawhi and ben's preferred destination is to the bigger markets for non basketball reasons...

[Chinook]

Given what happened to the Spurs with Kawhi Leonard, I can't believe that there are so many people here willing to trade for Ben Simmons when he's basically doing the same thing to the 76ers that Kawhi did to the Spurs. In my mind, the best case scenario that would happen would be:



Ben Simmons comes to the Spurs
His shooting improves steadily over the next 4 years due to Chip's coaching
The Spurs get better and better each year
By 2024-2025, the Spurs reach the WCF, Ben Simmons is 1st team all-nba, shooting 38% from 3P and 75% FT


But you know what will happen next.. After his contract is up, Simmons will flee SA and head to one of his preferred teams, probably some team in California. And the Spurs will be left in the same position that they were in when Kawhi left, which is a middle of the pack, 8th seed type team. And don't tell me that Simmons will stay in SA when Kawhi didn't stay in Toronto even after winning a championship there.

So given that Simmons would leave after 4 years, and may even force his way out after 3 years, it would only be worth it if the Spurs could win a championship in that time. But I don't think that [Simmons + Spurs young core - players and draft picks given up in the trade] is anywhere close to contending for a championship, given that [Embiid + Simmons + 76ers role players] couldn't get past Atlanta and Embiid is way better than anyone the Spurs could hope to draft/acquire in the next 3-4 years.

Thought experiment: Imagine if Kawhi were originally drafted by the Pacers, and then he forced his way out in the same way, getting traded to Toronto then leaving for the Clippers. Now imagine that he is unhappy with the Clippers and wants out (pretend he's not injured), and has named 4 other teams as his preferred destinations: GS, LAL, Nets, Heat. Would you trade for him, knowing that he doesn't want to play in SA? If not, why would you trade for Simmons?

The whole Kawhi fiasco has really turned me off to any player who tries to force their way off their team. It's one thing to request to be traded, which I can respect. But it's another to stop speaking to anyone on the team and tanking your own trade value, which both Kawhi and Simmons have done. I have no doubts that whichever team ends up with Simmons will regret it after 3-4 years when he decides it's time to get out of town and leave for greener pastures.

Wait, Simmons becoming an MVP candidate, taking the Spurs to the WCF and then leaving in free agency it totally worth multiple unprotected picks. If the Spurs are good enough to reach the WCF on the back of a realized Simmons, they damned sure better have been trading their picks for complimentary stars to put around him. They have no right to think they can keep UFA past their contracts. It would be a foolish way to build a team and one of the major reasons why "building through the draft" wouldn't work.

The Simmons/Leonard comparison is extremely lazy, and it shows more how jilted a fanbase can be than it does anything about the players. Guys want out, and teams are going to trade him. That's just reality. So the Spurs can put their heads in the ground and hope to draft nice-guy stars who will both be MVP candidates and want to stay on a team that refuses to make impact trades, or they can get with the times and take advantage of the fluid trade market to get stars who'd never sign with their as free agents. It's one thing to worry about trading a lot for an expiring player. But it's simply not justifiable to worry about whether the guy you have locked up for four years will want to be there in year seven or whatever.

[R. DeMurre]

Given what happened to the Spurs with Kawhi Leonard, I can't believe that there are so many people here willing to trade for Ben Simmons when he's basically doing the same thing to the 76ers that Kawhi did to the Spurs. In my mind, the best case scenario that would happen would be:



Ben Simmons comes to the Spurs
His shooting improves steadily over the next 4 years due to Chip's coaching
The Spurs get better and better each year
By 2024-2025, the Spurs reach the WCF, Ben Simmons is 1st team all-nba, shooting 38% from 3P and 75% FT





Kawhi is a career 38% shooter from three, after shooting just over 37% in both of his first two seasons, and over 80% FT% in 9 out of his 10 seasons. Simmons has never shot over 30% from three or over 63% from the FT line. I wouldn't even classify this as best case scenario as much as a pie in the sky daydream scenario.

[spurs10]

Then sixers never win a title. Their window is open with embid and they can't replace simmons with a minimum guy. Someone who shoots fts at 75-80% and 3's at > 35% might help them. Simmons has other skills, but until he works his ass off to become a better shooter he will bring them down. Just like this playoffs. that's their ceiling. Yeah they need more than "minimum guy." They need someone who will shoot the ball.

[Jsmythe]

but this is somewhat different from the kawhi situation right? in the sense that Ben Simmons didn't force his way out of philly, its that the philly organisation has openly expressed interesting in cutting ties with him... but i do agree that its similar only in the aspect that both kawhi and ben's preferred destination is to the bigger markets for non basketball reasons...

The 76ers may have wanted to get rid of him privately, but the earliest I heard about the situation publicly was when it was reported that Simmons wasn't returning any calls from the team, even from Embiid. Maybe he was "hurt" by some remarks that were made by Doc in the press, I don't know. Either way, this attitude of "it's not my job to fix my trade value" (actual quote attributed to Simmons) rubs me the wrong way.

There are just certain guys in the league who I can't root for, for various reasons: excessive flopping/reliance on refs (Harden), dirty plays (Zaza), bailing on their team (Kawhi), reneging on a deal (Marcus Morris), etc. Right now, Simmons is in my "doghouse", and if he got traded to the Spurs I would find it very difficult to watch them (much like how I will feel a little disgusted any time Forbes is in the game).

[buttsR4rebounding]

Simmons trade likely occurs before October 1st. His contract is structured so that he gets half of his annual salary, 16.5 million, on 10/1. That’s a big enough number to light a fire under Morey’s ass.

[Jsmythe]

Wait, Simmons becoming an MVP candidate, taking the Spurs to the WCF and then leaving in free agency it totally worth multiple unprotected picks. If the Spurs are good enough to reach the WCF on the back of a realized Simmons, they damned sure better have been trading their picks for complimentary stars to put around him. They have no right to think they can keep UFA past their contracts. It would be a foolish way to build a team and one of the major reasons why "building through the draft" wouldn't work.

The Simmons/Leonard comparison is extremely lazy, and it shows more how jilted a fanbase can be than it does anything about the players. Guys want out, and teams are going to trade him. That's just reality. So the Spurs can put their heads in the ground and hope to draft nice-guy stars who will both be MVP candidates and want to stay on a team that refuses to make impact trades, or they can get with the times and take advantage of the fluid trade market to get stars who'd never sign with their as free agents. It's one thing to worry about trading a lot for an expiring player. But it's simply not justifiable to worry about whether the guy you have locked up for four years will want to be there in year seven or whatever.

I think it's much more likely to draft a star and keep them long term, like Giannis, Gobert, Curry, Lillard, Jokic, etc. than to trade for someone who doesn't want to play for your team and expect to scrape together a championship team in 4 years. Even when drafted stars eventually leave their original team, they usually stayed at least 7 years, like Durant (9), Lebron (7), Davis (7), Kawhi (7), Aldridge (9). That's a lot more time to acquire pieces than to start with Simmons + no all stars and expect to somehow to win a chip by year 4.

If it were someone more talented like Doncic I would feel differently, but in my opinion Simmons isn't good enough to lead a team to a championship. He's good enough to make the team win more games, which is the opposite direction of where the team should be headed. Even the most optimistic 38% 3pt shooting Simmons is basically like prime Paul George or Jimmy Butler level. Could we really surround someone like that with enough talent to win a championship? Seems like we'd need another star better than Simmons, which we'd be unlikely to get even by trading all our future picks.

It takes a lot of luck to win a championship. Even if you tank for years (76ers), your window may be so small that one shot (Kawhi game 7 buzzer beater in 2019) could be the difference between getting that championship or not. Other teams seemed to be in great positions to contend (mid 2010s Celtics with so many 1st rd picks) but then somehow blew it. Other than last year, you had to have either Lebron, Curry, or Kawhi to win a championship in the last 9 years.

I'm OK with the Spurs not winning a championship for a while, as long as they make smart decisions with trades and drafting. Unfortunately, since Kawhi left, they've made a lot of questionable decisions which doesn't give me much optimism for the future. Examples: Demarre Carroll, Pau Gasol contract, getting nothing for Aldridge, letting Forbes start, resigning Forbes. The jury is still out on Walker, Samanic, Vassell, and Primo but it's likely that the Spurs could have done better in the draft too. I also think that playing veterans like Belinelli and Gay over younger players like Walker and Samanic was a mistake and has hurt their development. If the Spurs would just commit to a rebuild it would be a lot better for the future than trying to make the playoffs as the 8th seed.

[TDMVPDPOY]

rather try trade for pacers big turner

[tbdog]

Someone who shoots fts at 75-80% and 3's at > 35% might help them. Simmons has other skills, but until he works his ass off to become a better shooter he will bring them down. Just like this playoffs. that's their ceiling. Yeah they need more than "minimum guy." They need someone who will shoot the ball.

Let's play a game. You choose that player that makes sixers better in a trade for Simmons.

[Maddog]

Given what happened to the Spurs with Kawhi Leonard, I can't believe that there are so many people here willing to trade for Ben Simmons when he's basically doing the same thing to the 76ers that Kawhi did to the Spurs. In my mind, the best case scenario that would happen would be:



Ben Simmons comes to the Spurs
His shooting improves steadily over the next 4 years due to Chip's coaching
The Spurs get better and better each year
By 2024-2025, the Spurs reach the WCF, Ben Simmons is 1st team all-nba, shooting 38% from 3P and 75% FT


.

I think this is a good way of thinking about this
He's 25 what are the odds he's even going to get to 35% 3P and 70% FT. Not sure I can remember a player that made those kind of gains at this point in their career. In addition he's never demonstrated an inclination to work hard on his game and forget the shooting mechanics- he just will not shoot.
Even if it where to happen, it's not going to happen overnight. He's already professed a desire to go to a Coastal California team
Too risky to pursue IMHO

[tbdog]

It's his celebrity California status that has me concerned and not his game. His stock is getting lower and lower. Sixers probably end up with Hield it's that low.

[BillMc]

Someone who shoots fts at 75-80% and 3's at > 35% might help them. Simmons has other skills, but until he works his ass off to become a better shooter he will bring them down. Just like this playoffs. that's their ceiling. Yeah they need more than "minimum guy." They need someone who will shoot the ball.
This

[Chinook]

Again, the Cali thing was one reporter saying he was told that by someone in Simmons' circle, and it wasn't one of the big guys. I think it's more one of those things that "feels true" more than it's something we can say is evidenced. I think more than anything, Simmons will want to go to a team that openly supports him and maybe doesn't want to make him shoot rather than a team in a state he likes spending time in. He might be a "socialite", but he's also rich. He can go anywhere he wants in the world to party. It doesn't have to be in his back yard.

[Bellboy]

rather try trade for pacers big turner

What would the Spurs be willing to give up for Turner? He’s the kind of player I would like for the next decade.

[Leetonidas]

Again, the Cali thing was one reporter saying he was told that by someone in Simmons' circle, and it wasn't one of the big guys. I think it's more one of those things that "feels true" more than it's something we can say is evidenced. I think more than anything, Simmons will want to go to a team that openly supports him and maybe doesn't want to make him shoot rather than a team in a state he likes spending time in. He might be a "socialite", but he's also rich. He can go anywhere he wants in the world to party. It doesn't have to be in his back yard.

Plus since then it's been reported that he is willing to play in 29 other cities besides Philly. I don't think he is really that desperate to move to Cali. He just wants out of that shithole in Philadelphia

[Sugus]

But I think you are vastly overestimating my value of Simmons. I never said gut the entire roster for him or trade 4 first rounders like Morey wants. I also don't think he is an MVP level player that would be some kind of franchise savior. Nor do I want the Spurs to acquire him just to "do something."

Am I really overestimating your value of Simmons? Or is it you, vastly undervaluing what it'll actually take to get him? It's a bit cute that you think we wouldn't have to "gut the roster" to a degree, or trade multiple picks, just to get a shot at him. As others have said, beyond his (to me, horrific and terminal) defects, the guy is still highly valued in other areas around the league. As the Dude says, if all it took to get him was Aminu + Lonnie and a second or some shit, I wouldn't have a problem with getting him... But it's not the case.


I think a lot of people here are severely underrating Simmons now because of a recent poor showing in the playoffs.

No, Simmons has underperformed in multiple playoff series now, several years back. It's been quite a thing if you've followed the saga closely; only now, the meltdown was so evident and public that everyone's aware of it. But the frustration has been building up, and for good reason.


His game does have limitations, and maybe he has been unwilling to work on that. But even still, he is an elite defensive player with elite playmaking skills that raises the floor of our roster. I don't think the Spurs should bend over backwards in a trade for him, but when you have a young all-star locked into a long term contract that fits the age of your core and wants out from his current team, you make an attempt to get him.

Why the "maybe"? There's no benefit of the doubt here. The guy has literally not only refused, multiple times, to address his deficiencies (going as far as being called out to national media by his previous coach, Brett Brown, who literally said "if he's not taking at least one 3 per game, that's on me", then proceeding to not shoot a single 3 for him his entire tenure), but has actively regressed in the shooting department, taking less and less jumpers every year he's been in the league. As a Point Guard.

And I don't see why you find solace in saying he wants out of his team, so we should pursue him. He's been the biggest diva throughout the process, thrown his team & city under the bus, doesn't mind tanking his value and sitting out after he gets his feelings hurt. Why do you think the same thing wouldn't happen in SanAn? It's not like Spurs fans will be too happy if he comes and still doesn't shoot for shit - especially after DeRozan, who was a better offensive player in all facets. He'll get boo'd eventually and, having no ties to SanAn, naturally force his way out again, or leave in FA.

Lastly, I'll say that I don't disagree with your premise in a vacuum, and would like the Spurs swinging for big trades of disgruntled stars. Just not the one "star" that's got the biggest flaw in the league at the most important position for it, in shooting for a PG. He's exactly what you say - a floor raiser, mediocrity-settler, ceiling-lowering player. I'd much rather wait for the next Harden, and take a swing at that, TBQH. It's not like BS will be the last star to want out of his team, like people ITT want to make it seem for some reason...


A lot of the negativity comes from the idea that Simmons is a headcase and a diva or whatever, and I don't necessarily disagree with that. But I also think guys understand how they are perceived in the league and I think they care about it.

Of course you don't disagree, because it's exactly what has happened. I don't think even the pro-Simmons people ITT disagree that he's been a diva through it all, an entitled one at that. And I totally agree players care about their image - but it's a negative for us, and not a positive like you think - why do you think a player obsessed with his image like BS, would want to come to middle-o-nowhere SanAn, notable for having their players fly under the radar and disappear from the national stage? Be real.... Simmons ain't about that. At all. You make a great point for why SA is a terrible team from Simmons' POV.


Id also point out that we only really see one side of the argument because of the media. Remember when Kawhi wanted out and SA was getting torn to shreds by the media because kawhi controlled the narrative? Fans of other teams were shitting on us too because of it. Can't rule out the Philly media doing the same

Again, I'm not saying go all in and do whatever it takes to get Simmons. But if you can get him for some combo of Murray/Walker/Young/1st? You do that all day. IMO. I want our team to get better, and I think players would be more willing to come to a team with an all-star guy that they know will feed them the rock.

Kawhi's situation was wholly uncomparable to this. There's no media "optics" here that made Simmons a passive, useless player in the 4th quarter of multiple playoff series. It's all him.

Again, undervaluing Philly's asking price. If Murray + Walker + Young + 1st (aka, mediocre-to-good starting level PG, worthless young player, serviceable roleplaying big, and mid-to-late 1st) was enough to get it done, Benny boi would be in SanAn by now. It's not, and multiple teams, contenders and non-contenders (Cavs and Wolves for example) can easily beat out that offer by simple virtue of offering juicier 1sts or multiple ones, which Philly can reroute into better win-now assets (remember they're trying to compete!). Philly has no interest in Murray or Walker, simple as that. Again, your original misconception is not understanding Simmons' complex trade value given the Sixers' delicate situation.

[Sugus]

For context, my original post was playing some devil's advocate.

I don't think the Spurs are bad at drafting and developing, but I think their ability to do so versus the rest of the league is leveling off. And I'm not for giving away years of first round picks, either. I think BS' value is getting lower and lower and as this progresses, I think there could be a value in pursuing him. And at that point, with Pop still as our HC, I have some confidence that if anyone could turn him around it would be Pop.

Am I convinced this would succeed? No. But nor am I convinced our current path is working, either. Now this year will be different and we will likely lose more games and, sure, we can see what comes of that through the draft. And to clarify further, I am not a fan of flawed stars, but I have to accept that the Big 3 was a once in a lifetime scenario that likely won't repeat. And so, here we are, a bad team in a weak market.

Another aspect: I sort of want DJM to be traded. I love his work ethic and dedication to SA, but I see his trajectory on a collision course with what the team will need, and so I'd like to move on in a year or two. Anyway, again, I'm not drastically disagreeing with you in my opinion. I like discussing the content, the personal squabbles I'm less interested in. So, happy to pursue this conversation.

I can better agree with this perspective. Well, the part regarding the Spurs' uncertain future, at least; I certainly don't think a practically-out-the-door, out-of-touch, old-geezer Pop will do anything for Simmons' "development".

The Big 3 was a once in a lifetime thing, sure, but it doesn't automatically mean the Spurs can't draft their next superstar either. When Kawhi was drafted/traded for, nobody thought he was gonna turn out like he did, and most thought the Spurs dynasty was finally ending. That didn't happen, did it? No reason the Spurs can't do it again - as long as they have their picks, at least. That's the main thing I quarrel with Simmons -the "mystery box" conundrum, but flipped-; trading for Simmons nets you a quasi-star that you know is massively, hopelessly flawed. Why not roll the dice on draft picks instead, who aren't bound by such fatal flaws (yet)?

Funny enough, I also want to trade DJ away, I've been on that train for a while now. Sell high on him, get your ROI on an excellent 29th pick, and roll the dice again. I agree with you most there. And ironically, it's the same fatal flaw that makes me low on Dejounte, that makes me hard-pass on Simmons: you simply can't be a PG in the NBA in '21 without a respectable, repeatable, dangerous jumper. The league is all about PnRs, switching, matchup-hunting, defense-stretching, and volume outside shooting, and if your main ball-handler can't command respect from the defense to even go above a screen in the PnR - what's your ceiling really like? Pretty low, if you ask me.

We saw this, picture-perfect clearly (you can go back and watch, I don't recommend it though, awful game for us), in the game last season in Boston, where the Celts came back and beat us with Tatum's 60. In the closing minutes of the 4th, Tatum was switched consistently on Murray, and he consistently dared Murray to shoot. I posted an image back then -I'll link it if I find it- of DJ, a feet above the 3pt line, and Tatum literally standing in the paint, arms open, waiting for him. Can you imagine how that play ended? DJ drive straight into the defense, turnover, Boston score. And it wasn't a one-off.

You just can't survive without a respectable jumper anymore if you wanna play PG. IF you told me Simmons (going back to the first point!) was open to playing Point Forward, I'd welcome him with open arms; his deficiencies much easier to hide or build around at PF. But at strictly PG? Recipe for disaster, as Philly has seen (and the Spurs soon will, unless DJ takes the leap some posters hope he does).

[cjw]

Again, the Cali thing was one reporter saying he was told that by someone in Simmons' circle, and it wasn't one of the big guys. I think it's more one of those things that "feels true" more than it's something we can say is evidenced. I think more than anything, Simmons will want to go to a team that openly supports him and maybe doesn't want to make him shoot rather than a team in a state he likes spending time in. He might be a "socialite", but he's also rich. He can go anywhere he wants in the world to party. It doesn't have to be in his back yard.

People thinking that being in a specific city still matters for NBA players when they can literally jump on a private jet whenever they want and spend the offseason wherever they want. Heck, he’d be able to afford a lot of private jet hours with the income tax savings in TX and many other states besides CA.

On the margin, some teams will give more exposure / endorsement opportunities to players. But they’ll follow the best players and the most compelling ones. Simmons’ priority shouldn’t be on a specific city, but on the place that will best rehab his image and game.

[Dverde]

Morey likes making trades…I think all this attention and chatter makes him hard.

[ducks]

The thing with Simmons is he seems to not have a work ethic or desire to improve in offseason
Ofcourse he has the max or close so who can blame him.
That is the problem with giving the max to people who do not deserve it

[ducks]

Morey likes making trades…I think all this attention and chatter makes him hard.

Oh you mom makes him hard

[exstatic]

What would the Spurs be willing to give up for Turner? He’s the kind of player I would like for the next decade.
He’s a player from the last decade.

[tbdog]

The thing with Simmons is he seems to not have a work ethic or desire to improve in offseason
Ofcourse he has the max or close so who can blame him.
That is the problem with giving the max to people who do not deserve it

You don't go second in DPOY and have little work ethic.

[Dverde]

I don’t buy the lazy thing. He can be fixed, he is getting knocked for not being aggressive and passing up shots. I’d rather have a project like that, than a DeRozan type going 3-19 in playoff games sinking his team.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

pretty sure nobody thinks simmons is going to lead the spurs to a championship in the next 4 years

any single one of these guys -- lebron, kd, curry, giannis, jokic -- isn't leading the spurs to a championship

the spurs are going to suck. really, really, really suck.

[talkspurs]

I don’t buy the lazy thing. He can be fixed, he is getting knocked for not being aggressive and passing up shots. I’d rather have a project like that, than a DeRozan type going 3-19 in playoff games sinking his team.

If he does shoot he misses unless it is a close shot. Having him shoot more does not help how he is as a player.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

So the latest ST article published discusses Murray, White and a first for Simmons. Considering Philly was asking originally for 4 firsts, that seems a lot more reasonable, but my guess is Philly wouldn't take it without more being added to the deal.

I also don't love the idea of losing White. This team is notably better when he's playing. Looking at the dropoff last season after he got hurt. We went from a playoff team to zilch. A healthy White is pretty darn important to the Spurs' success I think.

A White/Simmons backcourt could be pretty darn formidable.

[John B]

So the latest ST article published discusses Murray, White and a first for Simmons. Considering Philly was asking originally for 4 firsts, that seems a lot more reasonable, but my guess is Philly wouldn't take it without more being added to the deal.

I also don't love the idea of losing White. This team is notably better when he's playing. Looking at the dropoff last season after he got hurt. We went from a playoff team to zilch. A healthy White is pretty darn important to the Spurs' success I think.

A White/Simmons backcourt could be pretty darn formidable.

I like White especially the defense and intangibles that he brings. He’s such a high bball IQ and Manusque unselfish. But if that would take and Derek can’t seem to stay healthy. Simmons potentially would be the main facilitator. I want to see what Lonnie and Samanic can bring, and would hate to be wrong about them.

[apalisoc_9]

Ben is a great player under a Giannis system where he is the Giannis.

He’s not going to score as much, but he doesn’t have to clog the lane or watch embiid post up.

If the Spurs are serious about Ben Simmons, they also need to be serious at committing to a system that caters towards him.

He’s a great talent that will raise the teams overall potential, but he’s also incredibly difficult to work with. If the Spurs aren’t committed to changing the system to cater to Ben..they should look somewhere else

[BillMc]

So the latest ST article published discusses Murray, White and a first for Simmons. Considering Philly was asking originally for 4 firsts, that seems a lot more reasonable, but my guess is Philly wouldn't take it without more being added to the deal.

I also don't love the idea of losing White. This team is notably better when he's playing. Looking at the dropoff last season after he got hurt. We went from a playoff team to zilch. A healthy White is pretty darn important to the Spurs' success I think.

A White/Simmons backcourt could be pretty darn formidable.


I like White especially the defense and intangibles that he brings. He’s such a high bball IQ and Manusque unselfish. But if that would take and Derek can’t seem to stay healthy. Simmons potentially would be the main facilitator. I want to see what Lonnie and Samanic can bring, and would hate to be wrong about them.

I'd rather not lose both White and Murray, it definitely should be one or the other. Throw in Lonnie, Devin or whomever but keep one of White and Murray. (My preference would be White to keep).

[John B]

I'd rather not lose both White and Murray, it definitely should be one or the other. Throw in Lonnie, Devin or whomever but keep one of White and Murray. (My preference would be White to keep).

I agree. But since Simmons would be the main ball handler, it would be redundant and would rather keep both Lonnie and Samanic because of their high ceiling potential. I love White but he has yet to keep healthy all season.

Nice signature by the way :lol:lol

[exstatic]

I agree. But since Simmons would be the main ball handler, it would be redundant and would rather keep both Lonnie and Samanic because of their high ceiling potential. I love White but he has yet to keep healthy all season.

Nice signature by the way :lol:lol

White was recovering from surgery during a shortened offseason, and then rolled his ankle on Poodle’s foot, which could literally happen to anyone. Otherwise, he misses like 6 games.

White also would play off Simmons better, and provide better spacing.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'd rather not lose both White and Murray, it definitely should be one or the other. Throw in Lonnie, Devin or whomever but keep one of White and Murray. (My preference would be White to keep).

Mmmmmm, straw hat and ankle ribbons. Perfection. What was the question? It doesn’t matter.

[Payote75]

The thing about White and I really like the dude time
line wise he doesn't really fit he is 28. If you could make that trade you do it. The other thing is if you make that deal and still have Young there are some rumors of Young plus to Sacramento for Hield. Your surrounding Simmons with shooters if you can pull something like that off. I really want Simmons and if you could turn Young Plus into Hield who I really like you have some sharp shooters for Simmons to do what he does. I'd love it!!! Not sure how old Hield is but the way he shoots 3s at 40% clip that's special.


just checked Hield is 28 but I'd still do it his game holds up better and he not made of glass.

[tbdog]

Brian Windhorst on Ben Simmons: I know of at least one other team who is a small market team that has made an offer and has a lot of interest and it just hasn’t gotten public yet (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/brian-windhorst-bruce-boudreau-and-zach-parise-ep-365/id1072920150?i=1000535039291)

[exstatic]

The thing about White and I really like the dude time
line wise he doesn't really fit he is 28. If you could make that trade you do it. The other thing is if you make that deal and still have Young there are some rumors of Young plus to Sacramento for Hield. Your surrounding Simmons with shooters if you can pull something like that off. I really want Simmons and if you could turn Young Plus into Hield who I really like you have some sharp shooters for Simmons to do what he does. I'd love it!!! Not sure how old Hield is but the way he shoots 3s at 40% clip that's special.


just checked Hield is 28 but I'd still do it his game holds up better and he not made of glass.

Hield only does one thing. White does like 100 things, and he fuckng isn’t 28. Besides, if he were, that would be a reason other teams wouldn’t want him.

[Teamduncan21]

Brian Windhorst on Ben Simmons: I know of at least one other team who is a small market team that has made an offer and has a lot of interest and it just hasn’t gotten public yet (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/brian-windhorst-bruce-boudreau-and-zach-parise-ep-365/id1072920150?i=1000535039291)

spurs has gotten public already

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Brian Windhorst on Ben Simmons: I know of at least one other team who is a small market team that has made an offer and has a lot of interest and it just hasn’t gotten public yet (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/brian-windhorst-bruce-boudreau-and-zach-parise-ep-365/id1072920150?i=1000535039291)


spurs has gotten public already

by the "it" which hasn't gone public, does windbag mean the "team" that's interested, or the "offer" the team has made?

[Chinook]

White won't turn 28 until the moratorium next summer. This is his age-27 season.

I think people's trade rationale is ridiculous. If White is good but injured, why would you trade him? You're moving him when he has little value when you have four years to pump him up and get a lot more out of him. Of course, they shouldn't trade White at all, but if they're gonna commit to that, they still shouldn't consider it this season.

Also, the Spurs don't have a timeline. White and Primo equally "fit". Until they get someone good enough to open a window, they don't have a window.

[Mr. Body]

spurs has gotten public already

No they haven't. Or do you believe this "chatter" bullshit?

[Teamduncan21]

No they haven't. Or do you believe this "chatter" bullshit?


I mean spurs is interested is public already. Thus we have this chatter.
Allan did pointed out "it" might mean the package is not public.

[Leetonidas]

I mean spurs is interested is public already. Thus we have this chatter.
Allan did pointed out "it" might mean the package is not public.

No bro, Mr. Body is super well connected and knows for a fact what our FO is doing :tu nothing to see here

[Uriel]

1437378985336262659

[exstatic]

1437378985336262659

I’ll bet it’s Indy. Sabonis supposedly wants out.

[Teamduncan21]

I’ll bet it’s Indy. Sabonis supposedly wants out.

Unless it's a 3 way trade sabonis with embiid feels weird

[exstatic]

Unless it's a 3 way trade sabonis with embiid feels weird

Better fit than Simmons. Sabonis shoots about two and a half treys a game at 32%. He’s been listed as a PF for the last two years.

[baseline bum]

Mmmmmm, straw hat and ankle ribbons. Perfection. What was the question? It doesn’t matter.

OK BillMc, time to post a link to the rest of the shoot for straw hat and ankle ribbons girl. Also the video.

[Teamduncan21]

Better fit than Simmons. Sabonis shoots about two and a half treys a game at 32%. He’s been listed as a PF for the last two years.

Tobias Harris? Off the bench?

[exstatic]

Tobias Harris? Off the bench?

That doesn’t solve their need to move Simmons.

[Chinook]

Sabonis isn't a better fit with Embiid. First, defense exists, and fit there matters too. Second, though, Sabonis may shoot, but he's a post player. Even if he can space for Embiid, they'll both be in less effective situations if they share the court.

[BillMc]

OK BillMc (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=16431), time to post a link to the rest of the shoot for straw hat and ankle ribbons girl. Also the video.

If I had it, I'd share it bro!:cry

[baseline bum]

If I had it, I'd share it bro!:cry

Yeah I did a reverse google image search and came across this instagram

https://www.instagram.com/kattylynn_friends/?hl=en

And then her specific instagram

https://www.instagram.com/killer_katrin/

Was thinking it a was a porn shoot or something but with you only posting the teaser photos :lol

[spurs10]

Mmmmmm, straw hat and ankle ribbons. Perfection. What was the question? It doesn’t matter. :wow Were y'all talking about straw hats...I mean the Spurs? I doubt will see ankle ribbb...I mean what's his face and we should concentrate on....I forgot what I was talking about.

[spurs10]

Yeah I did a reverse google image search and came across this instagram

https://www.instagram.com/kattylynn_friends/?hl=en

And then her specific instagram

https://www.instagram.com/killer_katrin/

Was thinking it a was a porn shoot or something but with you only posting the teaser photos :lol Why is that Tony Orlando and Dawn song playing over and over in my head? Make it stop!!

[Isitjustme?]

Sabonis isn't a better fit with Embiid. First, defense exists, and fit there matters too. Second, though, Sabonis may shoot, but he's a post player. Even if he can space for Embiid, they'll both be in less effective situations if they share the court.
He's way too slow to guard NBA fours in 2021 is all that matters

[TD 21]

I’ll bet it’s Indy. Sabonis supposedly wants out.

Maybe, but they were rumored to have offered Brogdon and a 1st sometime between the 76ers being eliminated and Simmons officially requesting a trade.

Source?



Better fit than Simmons. Sabonis shoots about two and a half treys a game at 32%. He’s been listed as a PF for the last two years.

Because he plays next to Turner, an elite rim protector, thereby forcing him to defend fours when they play together. He's clearly a five though.

He'd be the best talent the 76ers could get, but playing him next to Embiid and Harris is untenable in '21 and as good as he is, I can't see anyone giving up the type of dynamic guard the 76ers lack for a big who can't space the floor, defend in space or protect the rim.

[Payote75]

Hield only does one thing. White does like 100 things, and he fuckng isn’t 28. Besides, if he were, that would be a reason other teams wouldn’t want him.


I was was saying I like the fit of Hield with Simmons style ..that was my point. Some dudes need to calm down man. It's a board everyone has ideas agree disagree like hate all good everyone has one goal. That goal is we just want to see the team improve and do well. I don't have a need to be right I just want them to improve.

[tbdog]

Sac are in a strange spot with Hield. Because you'd want a good defender to pair with Fox that isn't ball dominate to pair with fox. White doesn't fit well with Fox on one end the court. Where as a Hield and Murray back court is an upgrade.

[Chinook]

The Hield/Murray back court is a horrible downgrade. White/Hield isn't either, but it's closer. As clearly as White's the best of the three, Buddy is the worst. Just ew.

[CGD]

If Sabonis is truly available, I’d get in on that action.

[tbdog]

The Hield/Murray back court is a horrible downgrade. White/Hield isn't either, but it's closer. As clearly as White's the best of the three, Buddy is the worst. Just ew.

I just saw Hield stat line lsst season. The guy avg 20 points not long ago. I'm just not convinced that white and Murray will ever work.

[Chinook]

I just saw Hield stat line lsst season. The guy avg 20 points not long ago. I'm just not convinced that white and Murray will ever work.

Hield averaging a ton of points while being a net-negative isn't the way to go. I'm all for trading Murray, but I wouldn't fool myself into believing any scrub would be an upgrade. Of course, trading White for Hield is a complete non-starter. The Spurs would instantly become the worst team in the league for years

[exstatic]

I just saw Hield stat line lsst season. The guy avg 20 points not long ago. I'm just not convinced that white and Murray will ever work.

Counting stats. DeRozan put up over 20 multiple times. Points per game is a terrible measuring stick for player value.

[SpursDynasty85]

Sac are in a strange spot with Hield. Because you'd want a good defender to pair with Fox that isn't ball dominate to pair with fox. White doesn't fit well with Fox on one end the court. Where as a Hield and Murray back court is an upgrade.


White had a terrible start to the season but the whole year he was playing like a traditional (Shooting/scoring guard). He was gradually becoming our best player along with Derozan until he got injured. He would do well with any backcourt especially with his above average defense.

[Teamduncan21]

I just saw Hield stat line lsst season. The guy avg 20 points not long ago. I'm just not convinced that white and Murray will ever work.

he is like forbes but taller and scores more. unless you fancy the forbes signing and want another taller version, we wouldnt want heild

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

It's probably going to be Simmons for Wall.

[exstatic]

It's probably going to be Simmons for Wall.

Fucking Rockets.:lol. We got rejected once, but players be BANGIN’ on the door to get out of H-town. This would just start the clock on the next escape. :lol. Philly would have to be satisfied with just Wall, because Houston’s draft capital is tied up for the foreseeable future.

[cjw]

Fucking Rockets.:lol. We got rejected once, but players be BANGIN’ on the door to get out of H-town. This would just start the clock on the next escape. :lol. Philly would have to be satisfied with just Wall, because Houston’s draft capital is tied up for the foreseeable future.

What on earth does Houston have to sweeten a package where they’re dealing out a negative value player that they took on draft picks to acquire? As crappy as some of the deals I’ve seen floated for Simmons, I find it next to impossible to believe that there isn’t a better offer out there.

Not to mention Morey isn’t going to look to do the Rockets any favors.

[itzsoweezee]

It's probably going to be Simmons for Wall.

That would be the funniest outcome of this. I hope it happens

[Larry O]

It's probably going to be Simmons for Wall.

Hmmm... wonder if Morey still has influence in H-Town to make that happen, or has he burned his bridge? Aside from Wall, wonder if Houston would have to offer up more than just Wall, unless it's a straight up trade. Philly & Simmons are starting to run out of options & this may have to be the best deal to offer(?), that's available for these two, to get out of this mess at this time! If so, good luck SUCKAS! :)

[manufan10]

1438190781077000204

[baseline bum]

What on earth does Houston have to sweeten a package where they’re dealing out a negative value player that they took on draft picks to acquire? As crappy as some of the deals I’ve seen floated for Simmons, I find it next to impossible to believe that there isn’t a better offer out there.

Not to mention Morey isn’t going to look to do the Rockets any favors.

Really... are the Rockets going to offer six firsts or something? Three for getting Simmons, three for shedding Wall and his Curry level contract?

[baseline bum]

It's probably going to be Simmons for Wall.

Makes no sense at all. Sixers would be way better off just suspending Simmons and not paying him. Wall is trash.

[Seventyniner]

I could see the Sixers going for Wall if they get extremely desperate to get a deal done. But I don't think the Rockets would want Simmons because they would prefer the ball to be in the hands of Jalen Green, and they would want Simmons to play the 5 due to his lack of shooting.