Stein: Chatter Circulating About The Spurs' Attempts To "Barge" Their Way Into Simmons Sweepstakes

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Correct me if if I'm wrong here....

Doc after Philly lost in playoffs: Simmons sucks, we're not winning shit him.

Philly Fans: He's right you know.

Simmons: Well fine, fucking trade me.

.....

Doc when Training camp starts: Why isn't Simmons here? We've done nothing but love him and have always wanted him to stay.

Philly Fans: Why isn't Simmons here? FUCKING BUM!



tbh

[baseline bum]

This feels like a turning point in future CBA discussions. Absolutely deplorable behaviour by Simmons. As an Australian and an avid basketball fan, I hate to think of the future ramifications to this. This guy needs the Ben Affleck to Matt Damon speech from ‘Good Will Hunting’.

Yeah, because this is a big market team that matters. When it was just the Spurs, Pelicans, Thunder, and Rockets getting fucked over no big deal, but now that it's a big market east coast glamor team?

[Seventyniner]

There are too many divas in the NBA who think they can sign these huge contracts then leave their old team sitting in the dust. Kawhi falls into that category, but at the least the Spurs were smart enough not to give him the bag as he burned all his bridges.

There's always the chance that Number Two would have done the same shit Simmons is doing if the Spurs had given him the supermax. It is quite possible that the Spurs got as much out of that situation as they were ever going to.

[vy65]

Other than this CBA bullshit, I can’t envision a scenario where a party refused to provide goods or services worth tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars and wasn’t immediately sued. It’s comical that the NBA appropriated a collective bargaining model from blue collar workers to coddle multimillionaire athletes who refuse to honor their contract. There’s nothing in that contract that prevents Doc from being a cocksucker or Morey from being a dick. Maybe Simmons should have negotiated an out for disparagement or some such. But he didn’t. He’s just a coddled fagget collecting checks for doing nothing. Absolutely disgusting.

[PhantomDashCam]

Yeah, because this is a big market team that matters. When it was just the Spurs, Pelicans, Thunder, and Rockets getting fucked over no big deal, but now that it's a big market east coast glamor team?

Ben Simmons is a player who isn’t even a top 20 guy in the league, is paid the max and is contractually obligated for 4 years.
I see some of the overlap with some of the cases you referenced, but to me, this feels unprecedented.

[R. DeMurre]

For all the talk of Daryl Morey being such an analytics guy, he sure wagered a bunch on Westbrook and Simmons, two horrendous shooters who justify one sportswriter's take on Morey as "a guy who prizes talent over chemistry." Those are two guys I would never want on my team.

[tbdog]

Ben Simmons is a player who isn’t even a top 20 guy in the league, is paid the max and is contractually obligated for 4 years.
I see some of the overlap with some of the cases you referenced, but to me, this feels unprecedented.

He is right at about 20. I think espn had him at 28. And i think certain players should be lower. Also he is on a rookie max. Totally different to a vet max.

[Twisted_Dawg]

Correct me if if I'm wrong here....

Doc after Philly lost in playoffs: Simmons sucks, we're not winning shit him.

Philly Fans: He's right you know.

Simmons: Well fine, fucking trade me.

.....

Doc and Philly fans when Training camp starts: Why isn't Simmons here? We've done nothing but love him and have always wanted him to stay.

Didn't Embiid take a shit on Simmons too?

[exstatic]

For all the talk of Daryl Morey being such an analytics guy, he sure wagered a bunch on Westbrook and Simmons, two horrendous shooters who justify one sportswriter's take on Morey as "a guy who prizes talent over chemistry." Those are two guys I would never want on my team.

Duress, again. Harden wanted CP3 gone, and the only way to trade an untradeable contract is for another one. Not sure why you’re bringing Simmons into this mix. He was already in Philly when Morey arrived.

[FutureMan]

Duress, again. Harden wanted CP3 gone, and the only way to trade an untradeable contract is for another one. Not sure why you’re bringing Simmons into this mix. He was already in Philly when Morey arrived.


Ironically a CP3 for Simmons trade would probably be best for both teams. Fits PHX’s youth timeline very well and give Morey/Philly more 3 point shooting.

[The Truth #6]

Ironically a CP3 for Simmons trade would probably be best for both teams. Fits PHX’s youth timeline very well and give Morey/Philly more 3 point shooting.

I think PHX would regress without CP3 and with BS perhaps not being happy. But I think Philly likes the move more.

[exstatic]

Ironically a CP3 for Simmons trade would probably be best for both teams. Fits PHX’s youth timeline very well and give Morey/Philly more 3 point shooting.

Yeah, but Morey would never do it. Fit is good, but he’s way too old. CP3s sell by date is probably next summer.

[lmbebo]

Ironically a CP3 for Simmons trade would probably be best for both teams. Fits PHX’s youth timeline very well and give Morey/Philly more 3 point shooting.


A team of the injury prone. Wonder if Embid and CP3 would clash.

Plus with success of Phoenix last year, no way phoenix does that trade

[Dverde]

Still don’t think a Spurs offer isn’t bad at all. DJ or White, Thad, prospect on a rookie deal, draft compensation, isn’t bad at all. Adds a lot of depth. DJ or White defense will be needed when they lose their best defender. Lillard is terrible defender. While you still have Tobias Harris, Embiid as your primary scorers.

[exstatic]

Still don’t think a Spurs offer isn’t bad at all. DJ or White, Thad, prospect on a rookie deal, draft compensation, isn’t bad at all. Adds a lot of depth. DJ or White defense will be needed when they lose their best defender. Lillard is terrible defender. While you still have Tobias Harris, Embiid as your primary scorers.

Lillard isn’t even in discussion. Hell, they won’t even offer McCollum.

[Mr. Body]

Ironically a CP3 for Simmons trade would probably be best for both teams. Fits PHX’s youth timeline very well and give Morey/Philly more 3 point shooting.

Phoenix would instantly no longer be championship contenders.

[Mr. Body]

Still don’t think a Spurs offer isn’t bad at all. DJ or White, Thad, prospect on a rookie deal, draft compensation, isn’t bad at all. Adds a lot of depth. DJ or White defense will be needed when they lose their best defender. Lillard is terrible defender. While you still have Tobias Harris, Embiid as your primary scorers.

Simmons is a horrible fit on the Spurs, absolutely awful. And that's before getting into what a locker room whacko headcase he is.

[baseline bum]

Well seems like Morey would rather sit on Simmons than give him away cheap, so time for the Spurs to move on and see what the trade market for Young looks like.

[R. DeMurre]

Not sure why you’re bringing Simmons into this mix. He was already in Philly when Morey arrived.

Right, but he seemed intent on keeping him before this current situation developed.

[exstatic]

Right, but he seemed intent on keeping him before this current situation developed.

One of only two real assets. You can’t be that fussy about what you inherit.

In reality, though, Simmons advanced numbers kill. Even without a jump shot, 54% of his FG attempts are 0-3 ft, which means he gets to the rack easily anyways, and also finishes those at 71.6%, career.

He’s played 4 seasons:

2 Seasons in the NBA top 20 for:
Total rebounds
Rebounds per game
Defensive rebounds
Drtg
Box +/-

3 seasons in the NBA top 20 for:
Steals/GM
VORP
def box+/-

4 seasons in the NBA top 20 for:
Assists
Assists/GM
Steals
FG%
DWS
Assist%
Triple doubles

[R. DeMurre]

One of only two real assets. You can’t be that fussy about what you inherit.

In reality, though, Simmons advanced numbers kill. Even without a jump shot, 54% of his FG attempts are 0-3 ft, which means he gets to the rack easily anyways, and also finishes those at 71.6%, career.

He’s played 4 seasons:

2 Seasons in the NBA top 20 for:
Total rebounds
Rebounds per game
Defensive rebounds
Drtg
Box +/-

3 seasons in the NBA top 20 for:
Steals/GM
VORP
def box+/-

4 seasons in the NBA top 20 for:
Assists
Assists/GM
Steals
FG%
DWS
Assist%
Triple doubles

I can see both sides of the debate, but I think there's an argument to be made that he becomes a greater liability in the playoffs against good teams-- in a way that doesn't manifest itself in the regular season, and there are certain metrics like Fivethirtyeight.com's various RAPTOR ratings that put him more as a top 40 or top 50 player rather than a top 10 or 20... I think there's no question that he'll add wins to an average team-- like an Allen Iverson, Dominique Wilkens, Carmelo Anthony-- but for me he's also likely the main reason you can't/don't win a championship. Also, his VORP and BPM have gone steadily down in his four years, which is really unusual, and might indicate that opposing coaches and defenses have figured him out to a certain extent and he hasn't had the ability (or desire?) to adjust to their adjustments.

[Seventyniner]

I can see both sides of the debate, but I think there's an argument to be made that he becomes a greater liability in the playoffs against good teams-- in a way that doesn't manifest itself in the regular season, and there are certain metrics like Fivethirtyeight.com's various RAPTOR ratings that put him more as a top 40 or top 50 player rather than a top 10 or 20... I think there's no question that he'll add wins to an average team-- like an Allen Iverson, Dominique Wilkens, Carmelo Anthony-- but for me he's also likely the main reason you can't/don't win a championship. Also, his VORP and BPM have gone steadily down in his four years, which is really unusual, and might indicate that opposing coaches and defenses have figured him out to a certain extent and he hasn't had the ability (or desire?) to adjust to their adjustments.

That's not really an argument against the Spurs trading for him imo. The Spurs are nowhere close to a championship team, and clearly aren't interested in tanking. If getting Simmons meant the Spurs would be a clear playoff team and have a decent chance of making the second round (3/4/5/6 seed), that would be a huge upgrade from the present.

Of course, all of this depends on what the Spurs would have to give up. But I can't quite understand the "don't want Simmons at any cost" camp.

[Sugus]

That's not really an argument against the Spurs trading for him imo. The Spurs are nowhere close to a championship team, and clearly aren't interested in tanking. If getting Simmons meant the Spurs would be a clear playoff team and have a decent chance of making the second round (3/4/5/6 seed), that would be a huge upgrade from the present.

Of course, all of this depends on what the Spurs would have to give up. But I can't quite understand the "don't want Simmons at any cost" camp.

Au contraire - I'd say the camp that's hard to understand is yours, aka the "plug and unplug" camp.

Basketball is a team sport, a mental sport, a cohesiveness and camaraderie and continuity sport. If team success was as linear as your argument implies, sure, there'd be no problem gutting the current roster to get BS, having him lead us to the first round where he'll face the inevitable wall and shrink, and try that for a couple years before shipping him out to X location and bringing in another star to carry us the rest of the way to a chip.

But that's not how it works, is it? How many good, great teams had their peaks in the second round, WCF, or even Finals, only to be derailed or disbanded and never getting back to that success again? Hell, these Sixers could very well be a poster boy of that - a Nephew shot away from the Finals, and it's all been downhill ever since. And a big part, not all of it of course, but a big part of that downfall has been due to BS himself. Even his own coach couldn't lie through his teeth and tell the media he can be a championship contending PG. Doc was stupid to say what he did, but it's the truthness of his statement that made it so controversial, not how wrong it was. The writing's on the wall, and everyone's read it.

So, in an imaginary vaccuum, you could say get Simmons now, let him carry the team, worry about his flaws later. But this is reality. And the reality is the Spurs, once faced with the same wall Philly faced last year, will not have the big market draw, the deep pockets, the marketability to simply replace Simmons with a "true star" that'll do what Benny boy can't and won't ever be able to do. If a team like the Spurs doesn't get their #1 option from within (and no, this doesn't mean exclusively through the draft, but it does mean developing the star from the ground up), they'll never get it from outside.

So you see where Philly is - they already have their MVP-level two-way player, a sufficient #3 guy, and an adequate cast of roleplayers. They literally are in the perfect position for Simmons to thrive - yet they're actively, violently trying to get rid of them. Why on Earth do you think the Spurs could do better, given their assets, to put a successful team around BS -- and more importantly, why do you think Simmons would be interested in staying in SA at all, while we rebuild the team to his needs?

No, it's not the "no Simmons at any cost" camp that's hard to understand, tbh. And especially so given his recent antics. What a fucking diva, and the worst kind - unable to back it up on the court when it matters.

[manufan10]

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[manufan10]

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[Seventyniner]

Basketball is a team sport, a mental sport, a cohesiveness and camaraderie and continuity sport.

That and four bucks will get you a cup of coffee. Talent is what drives this league. MJ himself is the biggest contra-indicator for your argument, Kobe/Shaq weren't much better, and LeBron is no paragon of cohesiveness himself. Camraderie is nice, and is certainly better than its lack, but I hardly view it as necessary to be a good team.


If team success was as linear as your argument implies, sure, there'd be no problem gutting the current roster to get BS, having him lead us to the first round where he'll face the inevitable wall and shrink, and try that for a couple years before shipping him out to X location and bringing in another star to carry us the rest of the way to a chip.

I don't think you can extrapolate what Simmons has done in Philly to what he would do in SA. You act as if such playoff "shrinkage" is 100% inevitable and will never change, but I disagree: plenty of players have been viewed as playoff chokers until they aren't. This quote also carries the implicit assumption that the first round is the ceiling for the Spurs-with-Simmons. I disagree, again depending on what the Spurs have to give up.


But that's not how it works, is it? How many good, great teams had their peaks in the second round, WCF, or even Finals, only to be derailed or disbanded and never getting back to that success again?

I would trade the Spurs' current situation for that of one of these teams in an instant. Simmons doesn't necessarily get them there, but he would be a large step towards it. Talent trumps all, and Simmons has plenty of it.


Hell, these Sixers could very well be a poster boy of that - a Nephew shot away from the Finals, and it's all been downhill ever since. And a big part, not all of it of course, but a big part of that downfall has been due to BS himself. Even his own coach couldn't lie through his teeth and tell the media he can be a championship contending PG. Doc was stupid to say what he did, but it's the truthness of his statement that made it so controversial, not how wrong it was. The writing's on the wall, and everyone's read it.

See above re: extrapolation. And what Doc Rivers said was an opinion, not a fact, so it can't be classified as true or false. Damon Stoudamire said no team with Avery Johnson as the PG would ever win a championship, and it happened that very season.


So, in an imaginary vaccuum, you could say get Simmons now, let him carry the team, worry about his flaws later. But this is reality. And the reality is the Spurs, once faced with the same wall Philly faced last year, will not have the big market draw, the deep pockets, the marketability to simply replace Simmons with a "true star" that'll do what Benny boy can't and won't ever be able to do. If a team like the Spurs doesn't get their #1 option from within (and no, this doesn't mean exclusively through the draft, but it does mean developing the star from the ground up), they'll never get it from outside.

I don't want Simmons to flip him for true star later. I want him to pair with said star to make a title push.

I especially disagree with your last sentence. I don't think the Spurs trading for a #1 option, or signing one as a free agent, is impossible at all. I'll give you unlikely, but not impossible.


So you see where Philly is - they already have their MVP-level two-way player, a sufficient #3 guy, and an adequate cast of roleplayers. They literally are in the perfect position for Simmons to thrive - yet they're actively, violently trying to get rid of them. Why on Earth do you think the Spurs could do better, given their assets, to put a successful team around BS -- and more importantly, why do you think Simmons would be interested in staying in SA at all, while we rebuild the team to his needs?

As you said, Philly was a lucky bounce away from having a great shot at the title in 2019. That doesn't speak against them at all. Not succeeding doesn't mean that success was impossible, or that it would be impossible in the future.

Philly, in terms of fanbase and ownership, is basically a shitshow. They wildly overpaid Tobias Harris and can't (or at least won't) keep their drama in-house. I absolutely think the Spurs can do better, at least in terms of being smart about handing out contracts and managing the media.

Simmons is under contract for 4 more years anyway. I'm not worried at all about him leaving in free agency because there are far too many things that can happen between now and 2025 that will make a much bigger impact.


No, it's not the "no Simmons at any cost" camp that's hard to understand, tbh. And especially so given his recent antics. What a fucking diva, and the worst kind - unable to back it up on the court when it matters.

The "no Simmons at any cost" camp is hard for me to understand. Of course it isn't hard for you, because you're in it.

We come to different conclusions because we make different assumptions. It looks like you think Simmons will always choke in the playoffs and will never be worth his salary. I think he has enough talent that, while not being capable of carrying a team to a title like a true superstar, can still be a solid #2/#3 guy on a contender. I don't think a wall of text on the part of either of us will convince the other at this point, though.

[R. DeMurre]

But I can't quite understand the "don't want Simmons at any cost" camp.


I think there's no question that he'll add wins to an average team-- like an Allen Iverson, Dominique Wilkens, Carmelo Anthony-- but for me he's also likely the main reason you can't/don't win a championship. Also, his VORP and BPM have gone steadily down in his four years, which is really unusual, and might indicate that opposing coaches and defenses have figured him out to a certain extent and he hasn't had the ability (or desire?) to adjust to their adjustments.

Simply put, this is the reason I feel that way. The best year the 76ers had occurred when Jimmy Butler took control and Simmons became the #3 guy, surrounded by pretty good role players & shooters, and that still wasn't enough. And then Jimmy Butler left, complaining of Ben's "mental make up."
I know the Spurs are far from championship contention now, but I just don't think adding a guy I view as a Championship Stopper is the answer. There are 500+ other guys in the league to potentially take aim on, and they don't come with multiple red flags attached.

[FutureMan]

Phoenix would instantly no longer be championship contenders.

Phoenix was a contender last year. Let’s see how things go this year.

[tbdog]

Simply put, this is the reason I feel that way. The best year the 76ers had occurred when Jimmy Butler took control and Simmons became the #3 guy, surrounded by pretty good role players & shooters, and that still wasn't enough. And then Jimmy Butler left, complaining of Ben's "mental make up."
I know the Spurs are far from championship contention now, but I just don't think adding a guy I view as a Championship Stopper is the answer. There are 500+ other guys in the league to potentially take aim on, and they don't come with multiple red flags attached.

500? Bullshit. Maybe 20.

[R. DeMurre]

500? Bullshit. Maybe 20.

I just meant that as generically the amount of guys in the NBA.

[tbdog]

I just meant that as generically the amount of guys in the NBA.

I don't know what that even means. Are you saying there are 500 players the spurs could obtain and develop into a simmons without the red flags?

[R. DeMurre]

I don't know what that even means. Are you saying there are 500 players the spurs could obtain and develop into a simmons without the red flags?


No, not at all. I just meant that the Spurs can look at all of the other players in the NBA (500+ is approximately how many players there are at any given time) rather than pursuing Simmons simply because he's available. No, I don't think there are 500 players better than him. I would say a lot more than 20 though.

[tbdog]

No, not at all. I just meant that the Spurs can look at all of the other players in the NBA (500+ is approximately how many players there are at any given time) rather than pursuing Simmons simply because he's available. No, I don't think there are 500 players better than him. I would say a lot more than 20 though.

But a really good player is available. I would say it'll be hard to find 30 better players though.

[Mr. Body]

That and four bucks will get you a cup of coffee. Talent is what drives this league. MJ himself is the biggest contra-indicator for your argument, Kobe/Shaq weren't much better, and LeBron is no paragon of cohesiveness himself. Camraderie is nice, and is certainly better than its lack, but I hardly view it as necessary to be a good team.



I don't think you can extrapolate what Simmons has done in Philly to what he would do in SA. You act as if such playoff "shrinkage" is 100% inevitable and will never change, but I disagree: plenty of players have been viewed as playoff chokers until they aren't. This quote also carries the implicit assumption that the first round is the ceiling for the Spurs-with-Simmons. I disagree, again depending on what the Spurs have to give up.



I would trade the Spurs' current situation for that of one of these teams in an instant. Simmons doesn't necessarily get them there, but he would be a large step towards it. Talent trumps all, and Simmons has plenty of it.



See above re: extrapolation. And what Doc Rivers said was an opinion, not a fact, so it can't be classified as true or false. Damon Stoudamire said no team with Avery Johnson as the PG would ever win a championship, and it happened that very season.



I don't want Simmons to flip him for true star later. I want him to pair with said star to make a title push.

I especially disagree with your last sentence. I don't think the Spurs trading for a #1 option, or signing one as a free agent, is impossible at all. I'll give you unlikely, but not impossible.



As you said, Philly was a lucky bounce away from having a great shot at the title in 2019. That doesn't speak against them at all. Not succeeding doesn't mean that success was impossible, or that it would be impossible in the future.

Philly, in terms of fanbase and ownership, is basically a shitshow. They wildly overpaid Tobias Harris and can't (or at least won't) keep their drama in-house. I absolutely think the Spurs can do better, at least in terms of being smart about handing out contracts and managing the media.

Simmons is under contract for 4 more years anyway. I'm not worried at all about him leaving in free agency because there are far too many things that can happen between now and 2025 that will make a much bigger impact.



The "no Simmons at any cost" camp is hard for me to understand. Of course it isn't hard for you, because you're in it.

We come to different conclusions because we make different assumptions. It looks like you think Simmons will always choke in the playoffs and will never be worth his salary. I think he has enough talent that, while not being capable of carrying a team to a title like a true superstar, can still be a solid #2/#3 guy on a contender. I don't think a wall of text on the part of either of us will convince the other at this point, though.

I'm amazed at this kind of thinking, which seems to have infected American culture in many ways these last five years or so. It's pretty astonishing to me:

"Because [thing] has never happened, that proves [thing] will definitely happen."

You see it with QAnon, with Trumpers, with all sorts of shit, and I don't get it. Are there brain worms floating around? Has shitty media rotted our brains completely? I truly want to understand how this fanciful, magical thinking about the stupidest topics has happened. "Ben Simmons is going to be great at San Antonio in precisely the ways he was terrible at Philadelphia."

Can you explain to me why this absurd fallacy has become so common?

[Chinook]

Bod, you've got to narrow your question down a bit.

[Seventyniner]

I'm amazed at this kind of thinking, which seems to have infected American culture in many ways these last five years or so. It's pretty astonishing to me:

"Because [thing] has never happened, that proves [thing] will definitely happen."

You see it with QAnon, with Trumpers, with all sorts of shit, and I don't get it. Are there brain worms floating around? Has shitty media rotted our brains completely? I truly want to understand how this fanciful, magical thinking about the stupidest topics has happened. "Ben Simmons is going to be great at San Antonio in precisely the ways he was terrible at Philadelphia."

Can you explain to me why this absurd fallacy has become so common?

First, Simmons has not been close to terrible in Philly. Underwhelming compared to his draft status, salary, and expectations? Perhaps. But a career 0.156 WS/48 (very good) along with an All-NBA nod and two All-Defensive first team selections are far, far better than "just a guy", let alone "terrible".

Second, me saying that Simmons's lack of playoff success, at least relative expectations, not necessarily being indicative of the future only applies to this situation, not to all situations ever. You have taken this thread and run a mile further than I intended to take it.

You have completely misconstrued my position here. I said "Even though [thing] has never happened, [thing] could happen in the future." I never said anything that could be taken as "will definitely".

[R. DeMurre]

But a really good player is available. I would say it'll be hard to find 30 better players though.

But again, few of those 30 have proven to be successful targets of opposing defenses in the playoffs like Simmons has. It's fine-- we disagree. I get why some people like him, but he's just not a guy I'd target. I think his flaws combined with his attitude are too fatal to be overcome.

[R. DeMurre]

First, Simmons has not been close to terrible in Philly. Underwhelming compared to his draft status, salary, and expectations? Perhaps. But a career 0.156 WS/48 (very good) along with an All-NBA nod and two All-Defensive first team selections are far, far better than "just a guy", let alone "terrible".

Second, me saying that Simmons's lack of playoff success, at least relative expectations, not necessarily being indicative of the future only applies to this situation, not to all situations ever. You have taken this thread and run a mile further than I intended to take it.

But aren't you cherry picking those stats? The scary thing about Simmons is that many of his advanced have gotten progressively worse 4 years running. His WS, OBPM, BPM, and VORP have all gone down in each of his 4 years in the league. That's incredibly rare for a star player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01.html

[Seventyniner]

But aren't you cherry picking those stats? The scary thing about Simmons is that many of his advanced have gotten progressively worse 4 years running. His WS, OBPM, BPM, and VORP have all gone down in each of his 4 years in the league. That's incredibly rare for a star player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01.html

I think WS/48 is a better indicator than the ones you mentioned because it's a per-minute stat, while WS/OBPM/BPM/VORP are total stats. Take into account how many minutes he has played each season: 2700/2700/2000/1900.

Saying that he hasn't improved, using those stats as an argument, is defensible. Saying that he has gotten worse isn't.

[Dejounte]

WS/48 is such a flawed stat to use when you start to look deeper and realize that good players on bad teams have below average WS/48, then when the team gets good, it rises. Such a stupid stat to place all your bets in.

[Dejounte]

Devin Booker. First four seasons. Below .100 WS/400. Next two seasons, it’s above… hmm, wonder why? Because he has a fucking better team. Guess he’s a terrible player and nowhere in Ben Simmons’ league.

[Dejounte]

Ja Morant. Two seasons in the NBA. Below .100 WS/48. Guess he’s a fucking terrible player.

[Dejounte]

Bradley Beal. First four seasons. Below .100 WS/40. Guess he’s fucking hopeless and has no future aside from becoming a role player in the NBA. Oh wait…

[Dejounte]

DeMar DeRozan had five of his first six seasons with below 0.100 WS/40 but DeMar’s biggest supporter on here will go and trash Murray for doing the same thing AND actually use the stat against Murray.

[Dejounte]

Khris Middleton. Began 3 out of 5 seasons with below 0.100 WS/40. SCRUB. Jrue Holiday. Majority of his career he’s been below 0.100 WS/40. Not a championship PG. didn’t do jack squat for USA Basketball. Amiright?

[tbdog]

Ja Morant. Two seasons in the NBA. Below .100 WS/48. Guess he’s a fucking terrible player.

You know what. I don't see Morant as the number one option going forward. Good player but what other allstar is looking at Memphis right now and saying that they want to join him.

[TimDunkem]

^Holy shit let him play a few years first.

[Seventyniner]

WS/48 is such a flawed stat to use when you start to look deeper and realize that good players on bad teams have below average WS/48, then when the team gets good, it rises. Such a stupid stat to place all your bets in.

You're doing this wrong. If you're trying to prove that WS/48 is not a useful stat for gauging Ben Simmons, you need to find players with high WS/48 and are bad, not those with low WS/48 and are good.

And I would take Simmons over just about every player you mentioned. Maybe not Booker, but Booker's archetype is much easier to find.

[Dejounte]

You're doing this wrong. If you're trying to prove that WS/48 is not a useful stat for gauging Ben Simmons, you need to find players with high WS/48 that are bad, not those with low WS/48 who are good.

I knew this was the next response, that’s why I’m prepared.

First up:

Michael Porter Jr. Comparable WS/48 to Ben. Denver just gave the bag to this scrub. Let’s build around this idiot. Hell NAH!

[Dejounte]

Serge Ibaka. IDENTICAL first five seasons WS/40 to Ben. Let’s build around him after his fifth season, and pay him the max. LMFAO.

[Dejounte]

Jason Terry had five seasons’ worth of comparable WS/40 to Ben Simmons. Such a magnificent player. Trade the entire roster for that guy.

[Dejounte]

Richaun Holmes. Comparable WS/40 to Ben Simmons. Should definitely be a top 3 player on a winning team! Worthy player to go after!!!

[Seventyniner]

I knew this was the next response, that’s why I’m prepared.

Then you should have used Porter/Ibaka the first time, rather than make a bunch of irrelevant comparisons.


Michael Porter Jr. Comparable WS/48 to Ben. Denver just gave the bag to this scrub. Let’s build around this idiot. Hell NAH!

Serge Ibaka. IDENTICAL first five seasons WS/40 to Ben. Let’s build around him after his fifth season, and pay him the max. LMFAO.

Porter is a meh comparison, his sample size isn't very large. Ibaka is better, he really did fall off after his first 5 seasons. There's no way to tell how old he really is, though.

You also need to realize that I didn't say Simmons's WS/48 makes him great. I said it means he isn't terrible. People are trying to act like he's some below replacement level scrub.

And at what point did I advocate for trading away the whole team for Simmons? I said if the price is right I'd pull the trigger. Right now that's in the vicinity of Murray/Young/Aminu/one first. Maybe throw in Walker or Vassell if the Sixers can add an asset.

[Dejounte]

Steven Adams. Comparable WS/40 to Ben Simmons. No wonder some dumbass team overpaid him. They relied on WS/40. LMAO

[Dejounte]

Then you should have used Porter/Ibaka the first time, rather than make a bunch of irrelevant comparisons.



Porter is a meh comparison, his sample size isn't very large. Ibaka is better, he really did fall off after his first 5 seasons. There's no way to tell how old he really is, though.

You also need to realize that I didn't say Simmons's WS/48 makes him great. I said it means he isn't terrible. People are trying to act like he's some below replacement level scrub.

And at what point did I advocate for trading away the whole team for Simmons? I said if the price is right I'd pull the trigger. Right now that's in the vicinity of Murray/Young/Aminu/one first. Maybe throw in Walker or Vassell if the Sixers can add an asset.

It’s definitely relevant. As many will misuse the stat as an end all, be all thing to evaluate players. They do it all the time for current Spurs players.

[Seventyniner]

Basically, Dejounte, you're the one who is guilty of using WS/48 and WS/48 only as a gauge of a player's worth. I never actually did that. I used that stat, along with Simmons's All-NBA and 2x All-Defensive nods, to make the argument that he isn't a terrible player. Go read my post again.

[Seventyniner]

It’s definitely relevant. As many will misuse the stat as an end all, be all thing to evaluate players. They do it all the time for current Spurs players.

See, you're arguing against "they", not me. I did not at all use WS/48 in the way you describe.

[Dejounte]

Basically, Dejounte, you're the one who is guilty of using WS/48 and WS/48 only as a gauge of a player's worth. I never actually did that. I used that stat, along with Simmons's All-NBA and 2x All-Defensive nods, to make the argument that he isn't a terrible player. Go read my post again.

Excuse my rant, really, whenever I see the WS/48 stat mentioned, I gnash my teeth. It’s less you and more other folks.

[Dejounte]

Basically, Dejounte, you're the one who is guilty of using WS/48 and WS/48 only as a gauge of a player's worth. I never actually did that. I used that stat, along with Simmons's All-NBA and 2x All-Defensive nods, to make the argument that he isn't a terrible player. Go read my post again.

RE: Ben’s accolades

When guys like Oladipo and Kemba have been All NBA. The award means less to me.

All defense… role players have won the award i.e. Ben Wallace and Marcus Smart so it doesn’t differentiate Ben much to me.

Im not saying Simmons is terrible. In fact, im not in the camp of “no Ben no matter what”. Just saying he’s a lot less ideal than people make him out to be.

[Seventyniner]

RE: Ben’s accolades

When guys like Oladipo and Kemba have been All NBA. The award means less to me.

All defense… role players have won the award i.e. Ben Wallace and Marcus Smart so it doesn’t differentiate Ben much to me.

Im not saying Simmons is terrible. In fact, im not in the camp of “no Ben no matter what”. Just saying he’s a lot less ideal than people make him out to be.

I think we agree more than we disagree. To me, Simmons would instantly be the best player on the team, and I don't think tanking is the answer to being competitive. At least, not the only answer, and not the one I want the Spurs to choose unless forced to.

Simmons certainly has his flaws and would be harder to build around than most All-Stars. I think that for the right package he would raise both the team's floor and ceiling, and his salary is not at all bad in an absolute (as % of the cap) or relative (taking into account the Spurs' cap situation) sense. The 4 remaining years thing is a big positive in my mind.

[XDT76]

Ben Simmons is a really good player, but given his mental strength he is never gonna be a no.1 option. Couple with his salary, he is a no no on the Spurs at this moment. A guy earning at least 1.5 times than the next player on this team backs off from challenges, how would the young and role players behave. If you expect some one else to step up in crunch time how would that player feel? Especially when that player's contract extension is up and the team is still not contending, there is gonna be a lot of issues.

[Dejounte]

I think we agree more than we disagree. To me, Simmons would instantly be the best player on the team, and I don't think tanking is the answer to being competitive. At least, not the only answer, and not the one I want the Spurs to choose unless forced to.

Simmons certainly has his flaws and would be harder to build around than most All-Stars. I think that for the right package he would raise both the team's floor and ceiling, and his salary is not at all bad in an absolute (as % of the cap) or relative (taking into account the Spurs' cap situation) sense. The 4 remaining years thing is a big positive in my mind.

So where we’ll disagree is Ben’s status on this team if he was traded here. I’m of the opinion that he has reached his ceiling as a player and his skills (or lack thereof) will be exposed on a team that’s definitely going to be worse (fit-wise) than the Sixers. Simmons has reaped the benefits of having an All Star Center and the best 3 and D players around him and took it for granted. Given that, and all the baggage he brings with him makes it a questionable decision to even include two young Spurs for him. Two Spurs whom have shown actual leadership that Ben will probably never sniff in his career. I see an Ibaka-like stagnant career in Ben’s future.

[Chillen]

If Spurs are offering Murray, White, Thad and a future 1st rounder for Simmons the 76ers are greedy asshats for not taking that deal. It makes sense for Spurs because they want a star player to surround talent with and for 76ers it makes sense because they are trading him out West to what looks to be not a contender. Murray has potential to be a star player. They are not going to get a star player back for Simmons unless Nets decide to part with Irving.

[dokdok]

I certainly hope we aren't offering BOTH Murray and White. I'd be willing to move one of them plus Thad and a pick for Simmons though Philly probably says no to just this.

[k830713]

Murray, Walker, Young, Pick Bulls 25 - Simmons
Murray, White, Keldon Johnson, Aminu - Simmons, Milton

[ismael-robert]

Murray, Walker, Young, Pick Bulls 25 - Simmons
Murray, White, Keldon Johnson, Aminu - Simmons, Milton

With proposals like that 2nd one ur post count needs to never cross 30

[ismael-robert]

Well we'll am I bolded...n I didn't even have to get on my knees n ask for it as I never saw value in it. Oh n I'm a veteran when did all this happen? Well nice to be recognized thanks

[tbdog]

Fuck Simmons. Dude is a beta.

Beta than anyone else on our team.

[tbdog]

Also, you guys don't think simmons is going to have a huge statement year?

[CGD]

Also, you guys don't think simmons is going to have a huge statement year?

Actually it could go either way. He’s just as likely to be a wet fart for the season and fade into whiny bitch territory

[talkspurs]

I think we agree more than we disagree. To me, Simmons would instantly be the best player on the team, and I don't think tanking is the answer to being competitive. At least, not the only answer, and not the one I want the Spurs to choose unless forced to.

Simmons certainly has his flaws and would be harder to build around than most All-Stars. I think that for the right package he would raise both the team's floor and ceiling, and his salary is not at all bad in an absolute (as % of the cap) or relative (taking into account the Spurs' cap situation) sense. The 4 remaining years thing is a big positive in my mind.

Here is where I have a problem with peoples thinking. I dont think he would would be the best player on the team. I believe that people massively overate how good he is because he was a pushed player on a good team. I would not trade DJM for him strait up. (yes I know salary does not match) I also believe DJM will have a longer career in the NBA.

Part of what you like about him is exactly what I dont like. max money is only meant for a few people in the league. I was against Collins this summer too because he is not a max player. He is better then Ben but even him I do not consider to be a max player. Haveing to have his contract on the team for 4 more years would hurt the Spurs.

[Mr. Body]

If Spurs are offering Murray, White, Thad and a future 1st rounder for Simmons the 76ers are greedy asshats for not taking that deal. It makes sense for Spurs because they want a star player to surround talent with and for 76ers it makes sense because they are trading him out West to what looks to be not a contender. Murray has potential to be a star player. They are not going to get a star player back for Simmons unless Nets decide to part with Irving.

Spoiler alert:

The Spurs have offered none of that.

[KobesAchilles]

I don’t know what his value is on the team. I think Murray/Young and Bulls pick would be the best the 76ers could get from anyone. It really comes down to if you think Hield is better than Murray. But we have the spacing for him now. And if Collins comes back healthy then that just adds another shooting by to our team (assuming Luka learns how to shoot).

Hypothetically, a White, Lonnie, KJ, Simmons, and Luka line up isn’t that bad. If anything it sounds pretty interesting. Especially with Poeltl, McBuckets, Vassell, Zollins as our bench

That being said I don’t want Simmons on this team. Fuck him. I’m all team tank.

[R. DeMurre]

Spoiler alert:

The Spurs have offered none of that.

Do you know what they've offered? I really haven't seen a reliable link or source that claims to know. Have you?

[lmbebo]

Do you know what they've offered? I really haven't seen a reliable link or source that claims to know. Have you?

Guessing his post was sarcasm ...

[Maddog]

Do you know what they've offered? I really haven't seen a reliable link or source that claims to know. Have you?

I strongly suspect that nothing was offered. The Spurs probably enquired out of curiosity and things didn't progress beyond that. Philly has stated they want equal value to what they think Ben Simmons is worth.
Maybe the Spurs said something like we'd be interested what would you like and Philly said you don't have anything. Of course I have no direct knowledge.

[R. DeMurre]

Guessing his post was sarcasm ...

Nope-- serious question. If there were names being mentioned by someone reliable like Woj or Shams I'd take these posts claiming to know what was offered more seriously. Otherwise, it's just pointless debate.

[Mr. Body]

Do you know what they've offered? I really haven't seen a reliable link or source that claims to know. Have you?

The Spurs haven't offered anything. It's all complete bullshit.

[exstatic]

Nope-- serious question. If there were names being mentioned by someone reliable like Woj or Shams I'd take these posts claiming to know what was offered more seriously. Otherwise, it's just pointless debate.

Welcome to SpursTalk…thirteen years ago.

[Joseph Kony]

Do you know what they've offered? I really haven't seen a reliable link or source that claims to know. Have you?

He doesn't know jack shit :lol Mrs. Body is a sniffer with consistently terrible takes that thinks he speaks for PATFO and thinks his word somehow carries more weight than guys like Zach Lowe, Marc Stein, Bobby Marks, and other sports journalists who have all confirmed the Spurs have been in discussions :lmao dude doesnt know shit, and it's hilarious how he keeps posting in this thread talking shit about how people are wasting their time discussing potential trade scenarios when he's wasting his time repeating the same bullshit like anyone gives a fuck


Tbh i'm getting tired of the chumps on this site that try to look down their nose on other posters for having discussions about trades, roster changes, free agents, etc. Newsflash to those idiots - that is the fucking point of the forum, to discuss these things

[Chinook]

Yeah, the meta commentary about fans talking about the team is a weird meme this off-season. I got on Ex about gate-keeping, but this is so much worse than what he's ever done.

[Mr. Body]

He doesn't know jack shit :lol Mrs. Body is a sniffer with consistently terrible takes that thinks he speaks for PATFO and thinks his word somehow carries more weight than guys like Zach Lowe, Marc Stein, Bobby Marks, and other sports journalists who have all confirmed the Spurs have been in discussions :lmao dude doesnt know shit, and it's hilarious how he keeps posting in this thread talking shit about how people are wasting their time discussing potential trade scenarios when he's wasting his time repeating the same bullshit like anyone gives a fuck


Tbh i'm getting tired of the chumps on this site that try to look down their nose on other posters for having discussions about trades, roster changes, free agents, etc. Newsflash to those idiots - that is the fucking point of the forum, to discuss these things

First of all, I gotta laugh at you for believing ESPN. After all these years, to believe their garbage is truly impressive. But then we live in a world now of utterly idiotic people who cannot figure out even basics. I wonder how you manage to eat every day, much less wipe your ass.

Second. If you paid any attention whatsoever to this entire summer, it was completely clear that Simmons had no or little market. The way Morey was acting early on, requesting these huge packages for him straight off the bat was the actions of someone who knew he didn't have anything. That's classic market-making behavior. It didn't work.

Third. After that, you had these media dipshits periodically floating teams as being interested. And those were lies. Just press shitheelery. Dumbfuckery. You shouldn't have believed any of that garbage.

Fourth. You have to actually look at Simmons as a player and person. I mean this beyond using him as your fuck-fantasies. Good fucking lord, is he wildly overrated in so many ways. Even if he wasn't... he's a total avoid. Even if he wasn't those two things, he's incredibly expensive and his contract is actually way too long.

Fifth. The Spurs going after this guy? What the fuck. Loooooool.

Finally: You've all been proven wrong. 100% wrong. No one wants him. You've wasted y'alls time and some of you are acting like babies because of it.

[exstatic]

Yeah, the meta commentary about fans talking about the team is a weird meme this off-season. I got on Ex about gate-keeping, but this is so much worse than what he's ever done.

Commenter commenting on commenters commenting. Like meta, squared?

[Joseph Kony]

First of all, I gotta laugh at you for believing ESPN. After all these years, to believe their garbage is truly impressive. But then we live in a world now of utterly idiotic people who cannot figure out even basics. I wonder how you manage to eat every day, much less wipe your ass.

Second. If you paid any attention whatsoever to this entire summer, it was completely clear that Simmons had no or little market. The way Morey was acting early on, requesting these huge packages for him straight off the bat was the actions of someone who knew he didn't have anything. That's classic market-making behavior. It didn't work.

Third. After that, you had these media dipshits periodically floating teams as being interested. And those were lies. Just press shitheelery. Dumbfuckery. You shouldn't have believed any of that garbage.

Fourth. You have to actually look at Simmons as a player and person. I mean this beyond using him as your fuck-fantasies. Good fucking lord, is he wildly overrated in so many ways. Even if he wasn't... he's a total avoid. Even if he wasn't those two things, he's incredibly expensive and his contract is actually way too long.

Fifth. The Spurs going after this guy? What the fuck. Loooooool.

Finally: You've all been proven wrong. 100% wrong. No one wants him. You've wasted y'alls time and some of you are acting like babies because of it.

:lmao this was a long winded way to say "i'm a retard who doesnt know shit." this is literally just your stupid opinion with no actual proof of anything you're claiming, your entire point comes down to "hurr durr ESPN is fake news, please take my sniffer opinion as fact"

so in summation - you dont know what the fuck you're talking about, have no clue what anyone is thinking, and you have zero inside knowledge and are basing all of this on your own opinions. :lmao

btw dipshit, Marc Stein doesnt work for ESPN, and Philly's own sports reporter that works for their local newspaper, who also doesnt work for ESPN, reported the same. now sit your uppity ass down and shut the fuck up

[raybies]

at this point of the season you just roll with what you got and reassess at the deadline.. there's a good chance he'll be available then... and at that point we may just run with what we have because if Philly is considering us it's because what we are offering is marketably better then they thought or maybe even we thought... the only reason I'd consider Ben is just to consolidate many solid pieces into a better piece especially if you know you can't keep everyone long term. I mean a piece like Ben may move the needle if we are theoretically solid already...

All things considered, don't want. Pass.

[R. DeMurre]

Spurstalk is extra feisty today.

[lmbebo]

Nope-- serious question. If there were names being mentioned by someone reliable like Woj or Shams I'd take these posts claiming to know what was offered more seriously. Otherwise, it's just pointless debate.


Nothing mentioned. Just the vaque tweets by random that Spurs are sniffing it out or Spurs listed as a possible destination

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

If the Spurs still would want Simmons after he pulled a "Kawhi" on the Sixers, I'd be pretty disappointed in them.

Simmons isn't going to come here and try to be a fit, or a team player, or buy into the "Spurs Way". If anything he'll "Kawhi" us at his first opportunity. Heck, no guarantee he'd even show up.

When we were looking to sign one of he Morris brothers, I just couldn't understand that a team that touts the importance of having "character" guys would want a sh!tbag like Morris. Simmons is a bigger sh!tbag. At one point I thought we couldn't pass on him for the right price. My opinion, especially as things have progressed with his camp, has changed.



DO NOT WANT

[Mr. Body]

:lmao this was a long winded way to say "i'm a retard who doesnt know shit." this is literally just your stupid opinion with no actual proof of anything you're claiming, your entire point comes down to "hurr durr ESPN is fake news, please take my sniffer opinion as fact"

so in summation - you dont know what the fuck you're talking about, have no clue what anyone is thinking, and you have zero inside knowledge and are basing all of this on your own opinions. :lmao

btw dipshit, Marc Stein doesnt work for ESPN, and Philly's own sports reporter that works for their local newspaper, who also doesnt work for ESPN, reported the same. now sit your uppity ass down and shut the fuck up

Hey. When did Simmons get traded? What big circus of teams lining up to trade for him do you see?

Thought so. You ain't got shit. You're fucking atrociously wrong and know it.

[BacktoBasics]

If the Spurs still would want Simmons after he pulled a "Kawhi" on the Sixers, I'd be pretty disappointed in them.

Simmons isn't going to come here and try to be a fit, or a team player, or buy into the "Spurs Way". If anything he'll "Kawhi" us at his first opportunity. Heck, no guarantee he'd even show up.

When we were looking to sign one of he Morris brothers, I just couldn't understand that a team that touts the importance of having "character" guys would want a sh!tbag like Morris. Simmons is a bigger sh!tbag. At one point I thought we couldn't pass on him for the right price. My opinion, especially as things have progressed with his camp, has changed.



DO NOT WANT
Over paying in free agency is one thing but I don’t think we’ve seen a history of them over paying in trades. At least not when in pursuit. Which is rare to begin with.

They typically look at stuff like this as an off chance to make a steal.

For the record I don’t want the guy either but if you give up one of White or Murray a 1st(not 22) and a filler that would be worth it no doubt.

[baseline bum]

First of all, I gotta laugh at you for believing ESPN. After all these years, to believe their garbage is truly impressive. But then we live in a world now of utterly idiotic people who cannot figure out even basics. I wonder how you manage to eat every day, much less wipe your ass.

Second. If you paid any attention whatsoever to this entire summer, it was completely clear that Simmons had no or little market. The way Morey was acting early on, requesting these huge packages for him straight off the bat was the actions of someone who knew he didn't have anything. That's classic market-making behavior. It didn't work.

Third. After that, you had these media dipshits periodically floating teams as being interested. And those were lies. Just press shitheelery. Dumbfuckery. You shouldn't have believed any of that garbage.

Fourth. You have to actually look at Simmons as a player and person. I mean this beyond using him as your fuck-fantasies. Good fucking lord, is he wildly overrated in so many ways. Even if he wasn't... he's a total avoid. Even if he wasn't those two things, he's incredibly expensive and his contract is actually way too long.

Fifth. The Spurs going after this guy? What the fuck. Loooooool.

Finally: You've all been proven wrong. 100% wrong. No one wants him. You've wasted y'alls time and some of you are acting like babies because of it.

tl;dr

[Leetonidas]

Just because Philly hasn't caved doesn't mean teams aren't making offers. Simmons not being traded yet doesn't mean no one is interested. That's just silly

[baseline bum]

Do you know what they've offered? I really haven't seen a reliable link or source that claims to know. Have you?

They probably offered Murray based on some of the stuff Dejounte was posting on social media earlier this summer and since he's represented by Klutch just like Simmons is.

[Sugus]

The "no Simmons at any cost" camp is hard for me to understand. Of course it isn't hard for you, because you're in it.

We come to different conclusions because we make different assumptions. It looks like you think Simmons will always choke in the playoffs and will never be worth his salary. I think he has enough talent that, while not being capable of carrying a team to a title like a true superstar, can still be a solid #2/#3 guy on a contender. I don't think a wall of text on the part of either of us will convince the other at this point, though.

I was going to one-up your replies, but tbh, your last sentence sums it up pretty well. It's just as wild to me that you think Simmons will ever be worth his contract and develop into an "alpha", max-worthy role, and desire to live in SanAn still, as it is wild for you to think that he certainly won't. I was simply explaining, since you were having trouble understanding, the perspective of No Simmons, since it's quite clear to me. You can disagree of course, but now you know.

I'll forever wonder where the hell you think the Spurs will pull that #1 option from with Simmons on the team, though. No tanking since he's a floor-raiser, his dislikable outside persona being the exact opposite of what you'd want if you wanted to lure a second star FA to SanAn, and a cap instantly messed up, if not outright tied up, the second he and his $33M/year come into the books. I guess Primo could grow into one while Simmons is under contract? I wonder...

[lmbebo]

https://sports.yahoo.com/sixers-ben-simmons-salary-withhold-trade-demand-nba-195808678.html

Guess they paid him into an escrow account and are fining him and recouping costs from that escrow account

[Sugus]

I guess Primo could grow into one while Simmons is under contract? I wonder...

Damn, only took one preseason game for my prediction to come true :lol :downspin:

[cd98]

If the Spurs still would want Simmons after he pulled a "Kawhi" on the Sixers, I'd be pretty disappointed in them.

Simmons isn't going to come here and try to be a fit, or a team player, or buy into the "Spurs Way". If anything he'll "Kawhi" us at his first opportunity. Heck, no guarantee he'd even show up.

When we were looking to sign one of he Morris brothers, I just couldn't understand that a team that touts the importance of having "character" guys would want a sh!tbag like Morris. Simmons is a bigger sh!tbag. At one point I thought we couldn't pass on him for the right price. My opinion, especially as things have progressed with his camp, has changed.



DO NOT WANT

Yeah except the Spurs didn't want to trade Kawhi, he simply forced them to. 76ers secretly want to trade him, they just want to get as much value as they can. They'd be looking to trade him if he was all-in for them this season.

[Seventyniner]

I was going to one-up your replies, but tbh, your last sentence sums it up pretty well. It's just as wild to me that you think Simmons will ever be worth his contract and develop into an "alpha", max-worthy role, and desire to live in SanAn still, as it is wild for you to think that he certainly won't. I was simply explaining, since you were having trouble understanding, the perspective of No Simmons, since it's quite clear to me. You can disagree of course, but now you know.

I'll forever wonder where the hell you think the Spurs will pull that #1 option from with Simmons on the team, though. No tanking since he's a floor-raiser, his dislikable outside persona being the exact opposite of what you'd want if you wanted to lure a second star FA to SanAn, and a cap instantly messed up, if not outright tied up, the second he and his $33M/year come into the books. I guess Primo could grow into one while Simmons is under contract? I wonder...

I don't think Simmons will be an alpha, but imo it's fine to have your #2 player on a max deal, at least if it isn't one of the 10-year vet maxes that takes up 35% of the cap. What max deals do is underpay true superstars and overpay #2 guys. I know that the Spurs getting a true superstar on a max deal is difficult/unlikely, but having Simmons on his current contract would be a good thing if they somehow do land that superstar.

For me, getting Simmons is like a "luck = preparation + opportunity" thing. Get Simmons on the team now, and if lightning strikes and you can get the right star to pair him with, you can be at least a darkhorse contender. I don't think the Spurs are going to sniff contention without taking some chances, and Simmons (at the right price) is a chance worth taking. Just my opinion of course.

Just so I know, what is your basis for calling Simmons a diva? Is it only him going public about wanting out? Diva attitudes among All-Star players seems like just something you have to deal with. There isn't enough high-end talent to be picky about character, and while I can't say I'm a huge fan of Simmons's attitude, I don't think he's a locker room cancer. But if you have more evidence than my admittedly spotty memory provides, you could change my mind on that rather easily.

I also don't see how the Spurs' cap situation would be that much worse. A Simmons trade would presumably include one of Murray and White. Even if the rest of the salary matching is expirings, that would only add about $16M to the Spurs' cap sheet next year, which is already only at $75M. The Simmons trade would limit the Spurs' flexibility compared to no trade, but it wouldn't put them in the tax or make it hard to make further deals. The Spurs' cap sheet is pretty clean right now.

[Sugus]

I don't think Simmons will be an alpha, but imo it's fine to have your #2 player on a max deal, at least if it isn't one of the 10-year vet maxes that takes up 35% of the cap. What max deals do is underpay true superstars and overpay #2 guys. I know that the Spurs getting a true superstar on a max deal is difficult/unlikely, but having Simmons on his current contract would be a good thing if they somehow do land that superstar.

The thing is, you think Simmons being on the Spurs makes it significantly more likely that they land that #1 guy, and I think it's exactly the opposite. Again, perfectly fine to disagree, it's just our opinions after all, but I don't see this at all: which top-of-the-league talent would look at small market SanAn, filled with no-name roleplayers and rooks, and one of the most unlikeable top guys in the league as the current top dog of the team, who's also known to have trouble sharing touches/ball dominance (you can refer to Embiid's comments on why Philly moved on from Butler for a source on this, btw, not to mention the Simmons/Embiid relationship itself), and go "yeah, now that's a team I could win a championship with!"?? Can you think of an actual, serious example of which FA would fit the mold? I literally have zero guys that fit this mold. I acknowledge not getting Simmons isn't going to make the SanAn destination more palatable, that much I can agree with you on, but I don't think bringing BS over is a plus as you make it seem. To the contrary.


For me, getting Simmons is like a "luck = preparation + opportunity" thing. Get Simmons on the team now, and if lightning strikes and you can get the right star to pair him with, you can be at least a darkhorse contender. I don't think the Spurs are going to sniff contention without taking some chances, and Simmons (at the right price) is a chance worth taking. Just my opinion of course.

Refer to above on "lightning striking". It's far, far, far easier to look for that "lightning" at the top of the lottery, than it is to hope some random disgruntled star will "take their talents to Texas beach", so to speak, and Simmons rules out the former option entirely. And, I agree the Spurs won't sniff contention without taking chances: my point all along has been - yes, do take chances, but why this specific chance, that's about as sure to fail as a chance can ever be? You never make moves just to make a move, and BS on SA flat out screams that to me. Again, IMO, of course.


Just so I know, what is your basis for calling Simmons a diva? Is it only him going public about wanting out? Diva attitudes among All-Star players seems like just something you have to deal with. There isn't enough high-end talent to be picky about character, and while I can't say I'm a huge fan of Simmons's attitude, I don't think he's a locker room cancer. But if you have more evidence than my admittedly spotty memory provides, you could change my mind on that rather easily.

I mean, the fact that he's pulling a Kawhi 2.0 on the Sixers should be enough evidence in itself, right? And enough argument to stay off him entirely, too, though you obviously don't see it as such. Look at it objectively: the guy is literally avoiding his teammates and team executives (told his teammates not to fly over and try to change his mind, eerily similar to Kawhi hiding from the team, don't you think?), he's actively missing games and team duties despite being on a whopping 4-year max contract, AND, worst of all - he does not have nearly enough game in him to back up his diva behavior. I agree with you that certain diva tendencies are to be expected of top players - and BS simply isn't. Not nearly enough.

Above all, the thing that irks me the most about this saga is him trying to spin this shit about getting his feelings hurt and feeling "betrayed" by his team - when the guy was laying a hot, steamy shit all over the Sixers court during crunch time of an entire playoff series. I don't gotta tell you the stats, do I? How can anyone, let alone a supposed franchise cornerstone, take offense to the not-even-directly-critical comments made by Doc or Embiid, after having such a wholly shitty performance over an entire crucial playoff series? Embiid was hard carrying his team, averaging close to 30PPG on a torn meniscus, and even then all he talked about in exit interviews was about how he and the team had to get better, do better. Accountability. Reminded me of Timmy in a way. And Simmons? Where's the accountability? Dude hasn't even gotten close to admitting he had a bad series, let alone field the criticism rightly coming his way off it. No, burn the bridge, fuck the fans and the city, my feelings got hurt and I'm leaving. Seriously? And you want this guy on the Spurs?!

Other diva behaviors that aren't as recent/known, just FYI: dated a Kardashian (about as red a flag as you can get in regards to this specific topic), dismissed the Sixers' shooting/training staff in order to be coached by his literal brother (Uncle Dennis much?), close-knit circle composed mostly of family members advising him over every decision he makes; and above all, a relentless unwillingness to face any sort of criticism head-on, instead deflect, deflect, deflect. Hell, his previous coach literally called him out to the media to at least ATTEMPT a single three per game. You know what he did? That's right..... Literally ignored it and never shot from deep again, until his coach was sacked. Yeah, total team guy.


I also don't see how the Spurs' cap situation would be that much worse. A Simmons trade would presumably include one of Murray and White. Even if the rest of the salary matching is expirings, that would only add about $16M to the Spurs' cap sheet next year, which is already only at $75M. The Simmons trade would limit the Spurs' flexibility compared to no trade, but it wouldn't put them in the tax or make it hard to make further deals. The Spurs' cap sheet is pretty clean right now.

I have no problem conceding this point; I'm not nearly versed enough in the Spurs' current cap situation to argue one way or another. To me, it's less about how the Spurs' cap space would look like, and more about how BS's on-court play isn't nearly justifying his $33M/year, and so no matter what other contracts you have, that'll always hinder your ability to build a team. Not to mention the fact that he's insistent on only playing PG, despite having the biggest flaw a PG can have in the NBA (no true shot or shooting threat), which throws a huge wrench in your team-building plans even before you look at the rest of the positions, since you're forced to supplement that playmaking threat in other, less available positions (there aren't many 5's initiating offense in crunch time in this league, for example, and not many 4's besides Giannis).

So yeah, all-around what I'd call a shit-sandwich. So I look at it this way... And then I think that we have to give up assets to have the pleasure of working with Benny boy........ And it really doesn't make sense to me. At all.

[manufan10]

1445476644324470786



1445476557468803082

[manufan10]

1445484519239397377

[mo7888]

1445476644324470786



1445476557468803082

If LeVert is the centerpiece of an indy trade then I'd imagine Morey will have another discussion with us before they do that deal. . The price might get low enough to pull the trigger..

[talkspurs]

how many people after last night would rather have Simmons then Primo? I am asking more the people that really want Simmons. Someone had mentioned earlier that before long he could be traded and Philly had interest in him.

I know this could not be doen straight up do to Salary but I wonder how people have switched after a day.

[CGD]

how many people after last night would rather have Simmons then Primo? I am asking more the people that really want Simmons. Someone had mentioned earlier that before long he could be traded and Philly had interest in him.

I know this could not be doen straight up do to Salary but I wonder how people have switched after a day.

F that.

I’ve consistently maintained that a Simmons trade is no more than a package built around Murray or White + Lonnie + Thad or other Filler + protected pick. Not interested in moving on from the “next 3” of Keldon, Vassel, or Primo any time soon.

[tbdog]

F that.

I’ve consistently maintained that a Simmons trade is no more than a package built around Murray or White + Lonnie + Thad or other Filler + protected pick. Not interested in moving on from the “next 3” of Keldon, Vassel, or Primo any time soon.

Exactly. Especially primo and vassel compliment simmons.

[Seventyniner]

*snip*

Damn, I typed up a long reply and it got eaten. I'll just sum up.



I don't think having Simmons would make it more likely to land that #1 guy, Simmons would just enhance the impact of that #1 guy imo.
Durant chose to join Irving, so a FA teaming up with a known toxic locker room guy isn't unprecedented.
What Ben is doing to the Sixers is pretty bad, but it's why he's available to begin with. I don't think it's quite as bad as what Number Two did but that's not saying much. He also hasn't missed any games yet, so until he does I'm viewing this as an NFL-style holdout. It's still bullshit behavior on his part because his contract is guaranteed.
I don't think Simmons would be subject to nearly the media criticism in San Antonio. It's possible that a personality like his is just a bad fit for a toxic sports media market like Philly. (Admittedly I don't have a lot of first-hand experience reading/listening to Philly sports media, only second-hand accounts, so my mind could change here)
You're right that Simmons is hard to build around on offense as a non-shooting PG. Ironically, someone like Forbes (though ideally one that can play at least a little D) is ideal next to him. You'd also need a shooting 5.


I appreciate the discussion: we have differing opinions of course, but we might not be all that far apart. You think getting Simmons wouldn't be worth any cost, while I think the Spurs probably can't make their offer high enough to trump other teams' offers and low enough to make the risk worthwhile. I think my line right now is Murray/Young/Aminu/one lottery protected 1st.

[mo7888]

how many people after last night would rather have Simmons then Primo? I am asking more the people that really want Simmons. Someone had mentioned earlier that before long he could be traded and Philly had interest in him.

I know this could not be doen straight up do to Salary but I wonder how people have switched after a day.

I'd like Simmons in certain scenarios but, in none of those would I include Primo at this point.

[MannyIsGod]

how many people after last night would rather have Simmons then Primo? I am asking more the people that really want Simmons. Someone had mentioned earlier that before long he could be traded and Philly had interest in him.

I know this could not be doen straight up do to Salary but I wonder how people have switched after a day.

If contracts weren't an issue I'd take Simmons over Primo 100 out of 100 times.

[manufan10]

The Ben Simmons (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmobe01.html?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-) rumors are marching on as Simmons continues to sit out and the 76ers continue to look for a trade.https://i0.wp.com/hoopswire.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/simmons0920.jpg?resize=300%2C168&ssl=1
As we wrote last week (https://hoopswire.com/cavs-spurs-pistons-among-teams-still-exploring-ben-simmons-trade/), the Cavaliers, Timberwolves, Pistons, Spurs, Raptors and Pacers are still exploring a Simmons trade.
But potential trade partners are seemingly holding their ground while the 76ers are seemingly seeking the stars, the sun and the moon in return.
With all that in mind, sources have repeatedly told Hoops Wire that a trade of Simmons is likely to involve multiple teams — as opposed to a straight-up deal.

https://hoopswire.com/latest-on-ben-simmons-76ers-timberwolves-cavs/

[Gagnrath]

But a really good player is available. I would say it'll be hard to find 30 better players though.

A really good player doesn't make things harder for his teammates by making them play 4 on 5. The NBA for the last 2 decades (and probably before that I just don't have reference) a point guard has to have some ability to shoot and score. Simmons doesn't need a team to actively guard him to stop him from scoring which makes things way worse for the rest of the team.

[exstatic]

A really good player doesn't make things harder for his teammates by making them play 4 on 5. The NBA for the last 2 decades (and probably before that I just don't have reference) a point guard has to have some ability to shoot and score. Simmons doesn't need a team to actively guard him to stop him from scoring which makes things way worse for the rest of the team.

He and Embiid are a terrible fit, like LMA/DeRozan bad. He also doesn’t leave his team 4/5 on offense. He has a shaky jumper, everyone knows this. He still manages to get 54% of hisFGs from 0-3 feet, and finish them at 71% FGM. They know he’s going to drive, he does it anyway, and finishes at the rim at about the same % as Embiid. He needs the ball in his hands, and space, and he can’t get those things in Philly.

[itzsoweezee]

I’m glad the sixers are playing hardball. The Spurs should have done the same thing rather than hand Toronto a championship in exchange for their trash.

[exstatic]

I’m glad the sixers are playing hardball. The Spurs should have done the same thing rather than hand Toronto a championship in exchange for their trash.

Nephew wasn’t doing an open holdout, he was faking debilitating injury, and that’s much harder to take the hardline on. He did and does have a chronic injury.

Sixers won’t win. They won’t get what they want, and they won’t get him back, so this is really all sound and fury, signifying nothing. This isn’t happening in a vacuum. It’s going to be a HUGE team distraction for as long as it goes on.

[tbdog]

A really good player doesn't make things harder for his teammates by making them play 4 on 5. .

There's 4 years of data that disagrees with you here.

[exstatic]

People who don’t want Ben making shit up to justify their position.

[raybies]

I'd put a package of White/Murray, Luka, Thad, and two firsts on the table. I'm sure you can extract more with more teams. But to me that would be final offer.

The Chicago first would definitely be a late first and ours I think, and with Ben and what we can do with our kids, should be end of the lottery or mid first. That wouldn't be bad at all imo. We have enough kids on the roster tbh.

[Degoat]

I think the best the spurs offer is White, Thad, maybe Lonnie and one 1st

[Spurs9]

Passing guard for Flat Earth straight up?

[talkspurs]

He and Embiid are a terrible fit, like LMA/DeRozan bad. He also doesn’t leave his team 4/5 on offense. He has a shaky jumper, everyone knows this. He still manages to get 54% of hisFGs from 0-3 feet, and finish them at 71% FGM. They know he’s going to drive, he does it anyway, and finishes at the rim at about the same % as Embiid. He needs the ball in his hands, and space, and he can’t get those things in Philly.

who would he be a good fit? That is the problem he does not fit with anyone. He is not good enough to lead a team but gets top money to do it. dont tell me what type of player he would work well with give me some examples.

[baseline bum]

Passing guard for Flat Earth straight up?

Flat Earth said he'd retire if Brooklyn traded him so he has no value on the market. He's stupid enough to follow through with his threat.

[John B]

who would he be a good fit? That is the problem he does not fit with anyone. He is not good enough to lead a team but gets top money to do it. dont tell me what type of player he would work well with give me some examples.

I wouldn’t even go any far, but Simmons would be a better PG than Murray. The guy is a 14/7/7 3 times All-Star and a perennial All-Defensive Team. Don’t make your hate for Simmons discredit his accomplishments. Yes, he wants out but from the team who pretty much threw him under the bus, admittedly ddeservingly so, he was a big reason for losing the EC Semi-Finals. But which other All-Star didn’t ask to leave? With the exception of Giannis? San Anton is not really a haven for FA’s, much less UFA’s. Nobody is perfect or he wouldn’t be in the trade discussion. And after watching two Pre-Season games, this team desperately need a Star caliber guy who can will himself to the rim, 71% PGM inside the paint! Spurs have a very good supporting cast imo. And I think they’re just missing a Simmons to build around. He’s only 25, locked in at 4 years contract. With all his skills, if Chip could fix his 3pt to high 30’s and FT to mid-70’s, we might just have nailed an MVP. Not bad on a bargain price of Murray, Walker, Tgad and maybe Bulls’ 1st pick.

[talkspurs]

I wouldn’t even go any far, but Simmons would be a better PG than Murray. The guy is a 14/7/7 3 times All-Star and a perennial All-Defensive Team. Don’t make your hate for Simmons discredit his accomplishments. Yes, he wants out but from the team who pretty much threw him under the bus, admittedly ddeservingly so, he was a big reason for losing the EC Semi-Finals. But which other All-Star didn’t ask to leave? With the exception of Giannis? San Anton is not really a haven for FA’s, much less UFA’s. Nobody is perfect or he wouldn’t be in the trade discussion. And after watching two Pre-Season games, this team desperately need a Star caliber guy who can will himself to the rim, 71% PGM inside the paint! Spurs have a very good supporting cast imo. And I think they’re just missing a Simmons to build around. He’s only 25, locked in at 4 years contract. With all his skills, if Chip could fix his 3pt to high 30’s and FT to mid-70’s, we might just have nailed an MVP. Not bad on a bargain price of Murray, Walker, Tgad and maybe Bulls’ 1st pick.

You missed the whole point of the question which was who would he be a good fit with?

To your other point I dont think he would be better then DJM. DJM counting stats are close sometimes better then Ben and His % other then FG% (because Ben shoots nothing but close shots). Ben is also vastly overated. Once he goes to a bad team people will see that he is not as good as people want to think he is. You also are talking about large improvements for a player that has shown continuously he is not that type of player. Also the cost of him is not just the players given up but also his max salary. he cost a lot for what he brings. You talk about not letting my hate for simmons discredit his accomplishments but yet people constantly do it to Murray.

[exstatic]

who would he be a good fit? That is the problem he does not fit with anyone. He is not good enough to lead a team but gets top money to do it. dont tell me what type of player he would work well with give me some examples.

Shooters. Lots of shooters. Secondary ball handlers, too.

[Shohoku High]

Shooters. Lots of shooters. Secondary ball handlers, too.

76ers starters 3pt percentage last season:
Harris 39.4% on 3.4 attempts per game
Embiid 37.7% on 3.0 attempts per game
Seth Curry 45.0% on 4.9 attempts per game
Green 40.5% on 6.3 attempts per game

Are we better?

[spurraider21]

Simmons would be a better PG than Murray.
im flabbergasted that this has to be said lmao

[spurraider21]

Shooters. Lots of shooters. Secondary ball handlers, too.
yeah. basically look at how the bucks built around giannis

obviously giannis is a different level but they have similar strengths and weaknesses

[FutureMan]

76ers starters 3pt percentage last season:
Harris 39.4% on 3.4 attempts per game
Embiid 37.7% on 3.0 attempts per game
Seth Curry 45.0% on 4.9 attempts per game
Green 40.5% on 6.3 attempts per game

Are we better?

This is exactly why I’m not interested in Simmons. Almost our entire roster would need to be traded. If you’re not shooting above 38% for threes, you’re gone.

[XDT76]

76ers starters 3pt percentage last season:
Harris 39.4% on 3.4 attempts per game
Embiid 37.7% on 3.0 attempts per game
Seth Curry 45.0% on 4.9 attempts per game
Green 40.5% on 6.3 attempts per game

Are we better?

Not only are we NOT better you can hardly find any other team better.

[raybies]

yeah. basically look at how the bucks built around giannis

obviously giannis is a different level but they have similar strengths and weaknesses

only giannis a champ and ben had the worst playoff line for a player of his caliber, like............., ever.

he ain't got heart man. i mean after that flame out he may have it now but as it stands... shit hit the fan for him and is still hitting the fan months later.

[exstatic]

Giannis is what Ben would be without a dominating post player with a 35% usage rate.

Ben is 6th on the team, for players who played 50 games, in USG, and 3rd in WS. He’s badly underutilized, because he’s a bad fit with Embiid. They both need the same things: shooters, and the ball in the paint. Trouble is, there’s only one ball.

[spurraider21]

only giannis a champ and ben had the worst playoff line for a player of his caliber, like............., ever.

he ain't got heart man. i mean after that flame out he may have it now but as it stands... shit hit the fan for him and is still hitting the fan months later.
i literally said giannis is on a different level

[manufan10]

His passes have been most effective when he is playing in a full-court offense. Simmons averaged 2.7 assists per game in transition this past season, per Synergy, the second-best among all players in the NBA.Since his first active season in 2017, according to our research, he leads all players with 743 assists recorded while in the open floor. For comparison: Only Russell Westbrook, LeBron James, James Harden and Kyle Lowry have even recorded 500 transition assists during this span.
Meanwhile, though he has his well-documented shortcomings as a shooter, Simmons is still someone who can help his team hit the outside shot.
Overall, Simmons has recorded 996 assists to three-pointers since coming into the league, per PBP Stats (http://www.pbpstats.com/totals/nba/player?Season=2020-21,2019-20,2018-19,2017-18&SeasonType=Regular+Season&Type=Player&Table=Assists&StatType=Totals). That ranks as the second-best mark among all players in this span. Only Westbrook and Chris Paul have also assisted at least 900 three-pointers over the course of the last four seasons.
Further, no one has assisted on non-corner three-pointers more often. Since turning pro, according to PBP Stats (http://www.pbpstats.com/totals/nba/player?Season=2020-21,2019-20,2018-19,2017-18&SeasonType=Regular+Season&Type=Player&Table=Assists&StatType=Per100Possessions), Simmons has assisted on a league-best 4.07 above the arc three-pointers per 100 possessions.
Philadelphia was 4.3 percentage points better from beyond the arc when Simmons was on the floor compared to when he was off in 2020-21. That differential ranked Simmons in the 92nd percentile, via Cleaning the Glass (https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/3361/onoff#tab-team_shooting_fg).
With significant credit to his vast skill set as a facilitator, his teams have played at a faster pace and have scored more points per possession when he is on the floor (http://www.pbpstats.com/on-off/nba/team?Season=2020-21,2019-20,2018-19,2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&TeamId=1610612755&PlayerId=1627732) compared to when he is not.
Simmons is undeniably one of the most willing and able playmakers in the NBA. He is someone who can make a difference even when he is not the one scoring the ball himself.

https://hoopshype.com/lists/ben-simmons-trade-rumors-updates-news-stats-analysis/

[manufan10]

1446483017413787651

[manufan10]

1446461514207186946

[baseline bum]

This is exactly why I’m not interested in Simmons. Almost our entire roster would need to be traded. If you’re not shooting above 38% for threes, you’re gone.

Almost our entire roster needs to be traded anyways.

[exstatic]

This is exactly why I’m not interested in Simmons. Almost our entire roster would need to be traded. If you’re not shooting above 38% for threes, you’re gone.


Philadelphia was 4.3 percentage points better from beyond the arc when Simmons was on the floor compared to when he was off in 2020-21.

Knock 4.3% off all of those 3G%s in Philly. He won’t be there to dish the dimes, especially above the break.

[LeBowen]

Giannis is what Ben would be without a dominating post player with a 35% usage rate.

Ben is 6th on the team, for players who played 50 games, in USG, and 3rd in WS. He’s badly underutilized, because he’s a bad fit with Embiid. They both need the same things: shooters, and the ball in the paint. Trouble is, there’s only one ball.


Lmao, no.

Ben Simmons is a mental midget who cares about how the media and the fans perceive him more than developing his game.

How many times have we seen Giannis airball a shot or even a free throw? And what happened next? He just kept playing as if nothing happened and took the same shot again.
Simmons on the other hand just doesn't care.

How many Sixers games did you actually watch? His usage is low because he has nothing to offer if the defense is set.
He doesn't need a 3pt shot, but he has absolutely no range outside the restricted area. No post moves or at least semi-reliable midrange. Nothing.

He just brings the ball up and then passes it away because he can't do shit.

If anything, Embiid is the one who suffers. He spends way too many possessions on the perimeter as if he was some stretch big because Simmons is completely useless if he's not in the paint, even without the ball.

[rjv]

every time i read a report about what philly is asking other teams i'm that much more convinced that the spurs have very little that interests the 76ers. and whatever deal could exist would most definitely leave the spurs bereft of draft picks for many years to come.

[Dex]

1446461514207186946

BREAKING NEWS: The same thing that we have all heard every day for the last 2 months.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The latest chatter is the Pacers.

[Mr. Body]

every time i read a report about what philly is asking other teams i'm that much more convinced that the spurs have very little that interests the 76ers. and whatever deal could exist would most definitely leave the spurs bereft of draft picks for many years to come.

You're reading it wrong. Morey has asked for these huge packages since the beginning because he's trying to make it seem as if Simmons is coveted. No one is actually giving those picks and swaps for Simmons.

[Mr. Body]

At this point, Morey is just trying to get Simmons back to play. So this functions, too, as a way of saying "This is how much we value you for, so just actually fulfill your contract for now."

Simmons' camp is doing the same thing, indicating they're willing to come back at least for a little bit.

[exstatic]

At this point, Morey is just trying to get Simmons back to play. So this functions, too, as a way of saying "This is how much we value you for, so just actually fulfill your contract for now."

Simmons' camp is doing the same thing, indicating they're willing to come back at least for a little bit.

Rich Paul will do whatever Ben wants, and that seems to be ensuring his exit from Philly. There has been ZERO indication that Ben is willing to return.

[Mr. Body]

Rich Paul will do whatever Ben wants, and that seems to be ensuring his exit from Philly. There has been ZERO indication that Ben is willing to return.

No, you're out of date. He's indicating now that he'd return only if it were for "short-term intentions." So he's starting to change his tune.

[exstatic]

No, you're out of date. He's indicating now that he'd return only if it were for "short-term intentions." So he's starting to change his tune.

Sauces?

[cd98]

Miami bragging that we are playing our starters against their bench. My how we have fallen.

[exstatic]

Miami bragging that we are playing our starters against their bench. My how we have fallen.

Thread placement fail…

[talkspurs]

Shooters. Lots of shooters. Secondary ball handlers, too.

He has shooters lots of shooters on his team. I also said give me specific examples. I am also more talking about bigs since you said Embid was not a good fit for him. But the rest of the team is made up of shooters to make it work better for him.

[mo7888]

After last night's game it feels like white + dj isn't an overpay... that may be recency bias on my part but even with all Ben's flaws he's closer to being someone to build around than anything we've got (maybe with the exception of Primo, who I think could fit well with Ben). I still wouldn't load them up with picks but I might put whit + dj on the table... they just don't fit together..

[raybies]

After last night's game it feels like white + dj isn't an overpay... that may be recency bias on my part but even with all Ben's flaws he's closer to being someone to build around than anything we've got (maybe with the exception of Primo, who I think could fit well with Ben). I still wouldn't load them up with picks but I might put whit + dj on the table... they just don't fit together..
The thing I've been thinking about Ben and to his defense is that he has had the shooters around him but with Embiid with him how much has he ever been the focal point? I believe that first year when Embiid was recovering etc he did really well.

As a focal point he may be far better then we know at this stage of his career. With that being said, I'd trade for him as long as we kept Primo and KJ. Anyone else is varying tiers depending on what the return is. Preferably like to keep White with Ben, but if he had to go that's fine. Murray wouldn't fit with Ben at all but... it is what it is.

Ben Simmons
Josh Primo
Keldon Johnson
Doug McDermott
Yak Poetl

This definitely looks like a playoff team at least on paper. At the very least ben is a potential DPOY candidate and amazing at orchestrating an offense. Defensively he is ELITE. He is much better then Derozan as he's not a liability on Defense. Then you argue offensively Ben is a liability but then again in a meaningful game so is Demarr. lol

[John B]

The thing I've been thinking about Ben and to his defense is that he has had the shooters around him but with Embiid with him how much has he ever been the focal point? I believe that first year when Embiid was recovering etc he did really well.

As a focal point he may be far better then we know at this stage of his career. With that being said, I'd trade for him as long as we kept Primo and KJ. Anyone else is varying tiers depending on what the return is. Preferably like to keep White with Ben, but if he had to go that's fine. Murray wouldn't fit with Ben at all but... it is what it is.

Ben Simmons
Josh Primo
Keldon Johnson
Doug McDermott
Yak Poetl

This definitely looks like a playoff team at least on paper. At the very least ben is a potential DPOY candidate and amazing at orchestrating an offense. Defensively he is ELITE. He is much better then Derozan as he's not a liability on Defense. Then you argue offensively Ben is a liability but then again in a meaningful game so is Demarr. lol

Yak cannot be on the same floor with Simmons, or he would need to come off the bench. I’d play Jock or Luka at C until Zollins gets healthy. Watching the last 2 games, I’d seriously pursue Simmons tbh. It would take years to draft a top player and develop, and I don’t really see anyone from our roster being a tier 1 player, maybe Primo. KJ would have to really work on his mid-game.

[talkspurs]

Simmons is the 19th highest paid player in the NBA. this is not a second star salary. Yes I realize Philly has 3 on the list.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/highest-paid-nba-players-2021-053749702.html

[Chinook]

Simmons is the 19th highest paid player in the NBA. this is not a second star salary. Yes I realize Philly has 3 on the list.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/highest-paid-nba-players-2021-053749702.html

Did you actually read that list? Most contenders have multiple players in the top 25. Brooklyn, LAL and Philly have three. Most other playoff teams have 2. Unless you have a guy on a non-DPE second-year deal, you are likely not getting stars for cheaper than Simmons. He certainly can make what he does a second fiddle and be fine.

[KingKev]

The thing I've been thinking about Ben and to his defense is that he has had the shooters around him but with Embiid with him how much has he ever been the focal point? I believe that first year when Embiid was recovering etc he did really well.

As a focal point he may be far better then we know at this stage of his career. With that being said, I'd trade for him as long as we kept Primo and KJ. Anyone else is varying tiers depending on what the return is. Preferably like to keep White with Ben, but if he had to go that's fine. Murray wouldn't fit with Ben at all but... it is what it is.

Ben Simmons
Josh Primo
Keldon Johnson
Doug McDermott
Yak Poetl

This definitely looks like a playoff team at least on paper. At the very least ben is a potential DPOY candidate and amazing at orchestrating an offense. Defensively he is ELITE. He is much better then Derozan as he's not a liability on Defense. Then you argue offensively Ben is a liability but then again in a meaningful game so is Demarr. lol

That team is still lottery bound and Primo is not seeing any real minutes this year.

[exstatic]

He has shooters lots of shooters on his team. I also said give me specific examples. I am also more talking about bigs since you said Embid was not a good fit for him. But the rest of the team is made up of shooters to make it work better for him.

I’ll repeat this one more time, since you seem to have comprehension problems: he and Embiid need the exact same thing; shooters, and control of the ball. Bens USG is a tad over 20. Embiids is 35. There’s only one ball. He ain’t getting it. He wants out.

[raybies]

Yak cannot be on the same floor with Simmons, or he would need to come off the bench. I’d play Jock or Luka at C until Zollins gets healthy. Watching the last 2 games, I’d seriously pursue Simmons tbh. It would take years to draft a top player and develop, and I don’t really see anyone from our roster being a tier 1 player, maybe Primo. KJ would have to really work on his mid-game.

Curious to see why you think him and yak wouldn't work....

For me it would work because Ben wouldn't be playing off ball all the time, he would be orchestrating the offense and be the focal point. The problem with Embiid was his gravity as a Number 1 option. Yak doesn't need the ball ever to produce. He's a pick and roll big who can play around the rim for drop offs like Tiago. It would be interesting to see the usage of the players.

[tbdog]

Curious to see why you think him and yak wouldn't work....

For me it would work because Ben wouldn't be playing off ball all the time, he would be orchestrating the offense and be the focal point. The problem with Embiid was his gravity as a Number 1 option. Yak doesn't need the ball ever to produce. He's a pick and roll big who can play around the rim for drop offs like Tiago. It would be interesting to see the usage of the players.

A Poeltl, Ben, Johnson front court won't work. If McDermott was there instead, i don't see the issues.

[talkspurs]

I’ll repeat this one more time, since you seem to have comprehension problems: he and Embiid need the exact same thing; shooters, and control of the ball. Bens USG is a tad over 20. Embiids is 35. There’s only one ball. He ain’t getting it. He wants out.

All I ever hear is people say shooters. Philly has tons of shooters on the team. They built the team to have shooters on the team for Ben. That is precisely why I said give examples of players he would work with. Since it is so easily to build around him you should be able to provided a decent list of who would work well with him. You talk about me having comprehension problems but yet you have yet to be able to answer a specific question of who would work good with him? If you cant think of anyone then HE is the problem.

[Dejounte]

Ben Simmons’ USG is low because of Ben Simmons, and not Embiid. The stat is largely determined by the number of field goals he takes and obviously we know his lack of aggression in scoring contributes to that.

[exstatic]

All I ever hear is people say shooters. Philly has tons of shooters on the team. They built the team to have shooters on the team for Ben. That is precisely why I said give examples of players he would work with. Since it is so easily to build around him you should be able to provided a decent list of who would work well with him. You talk about me having comprehension problems but yet you have yet to be able to answer a specific question of who would work good with him? If you cant think of anyone then HE is the problem.

They never built the team for Ben. It was built for Joel. Look at the USG: Joel 35, Ben 20.4. Basically, Joel gets SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT more touches than Ben, and Philly wants Ben to be OK with that.

I’ve ignored your question because it’s moronic. When you’re hypotheticizing, you use hypothetical players. You say “a shooter” rather than Steph Curry.

[talkspurs]

Did you actually read that list? Most contenders have multiple players in the top 25. Brooklyn, LAL and Philly have three. Most other playoff teams have 2. Unless you have a guy on a non-DPE second-year deal, you are likely not getting stars for cheaper than Simmons. He certainly can make what he does a second fiddle and be fine.

Yes I did look at the list and I know most top teams will have more then 1 on it. However Philly has 3 and has not made it to the finals. and before you say Brooklyn. They have for 1 season (and not even a full season) and had a weird season and they also had lots of injuries. The only time Philly made it to the eastern conference championship Ben was not playing.

[talkspurs]

They never built the team for Ben. It was built for Joel. Look at the USG: Joel 35, Ben 20.4. Basically, Joel gets SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT more touches than Ben, and Philly wants Ben to be OK with that.

I’ve ignored your question because it’s moronic. When you’re hypotheticizing, you use hypothetical players. You say “a shooter” rather than Steph Curry.


Embid seems to think different. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10013704-joel-embiid-on-ben-simmons-rumors-76ers-have-always-been-built-around-pgs-needs

Usg rate is a really poor stat to look at as even you say he is a distributor and defender. Usg is based mostly on shots. Since he does not shoot some because he is unwilling his USG rate will be lower.

When the hypothetical player is already on his team and your saying he is not a good fit you need to give examples of players that would fit. Embid is a good 3 pt shoot. Since I have asked for a Center and you come with Curry your reading comprehension must be really poor. Either that or you dont understand that Curry does not play Center. BTW Curry is more ball dominate then Embid.

[Dejounte]

They never built the team for Ben. It was built for Joel. Look at the USG: Joel 35, Ben 20.4. Basically, Joel gets SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT more touches than Ben, and Philly wants Ben to be OK with that.

I’ve ignored your question because it’s moronic. When you’re hypotheticizing, you use hypothetical players. You say “a shooter” rather than Steph Curry.

You’re using the stat wrong, genius.



https://i.ibb.co/3y5xTP0/A9-B06255-0-F5-A-4-C82-A5-FC-85-DF02-A71017.png

[exstatic]

Embid seems to think different. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10013704-joel-embiid-on-ben-simmons-rumors-76ers-have-always-been-built-around-pgs-needs

Usg rate is a really poor stat to look at as even you say he is a distributor and defender. Usg is based mostly on shots. Since he does not shoot some because he is unwilling his USG rate will be lower.

When the hypothetical player is already on his team and your saying he is not a good fit you need to give examples of players that would fit. Embid is a good 3 pt shoot. Since I have asked for a Center and you come with Curry your reading comprehension must be really poor. Either that or you dont understand that Curry does not play Center. BTW Curry is more ball dominate then Embid.

USG = any possession by a player that ends in a shot, an assist or a TO. That accounts for assists, but thanks for letting us know how little you know about the stat.

[Dejounte]

Embid seems to think different. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10013704-joel-embiid-on-ben-simmons-rumors-76ers-have-always-been-built-around-pgs-needs

Usg rate is a really poor stat to look at as even you say he is a distributor and defender. Usg is based mostly on shots. Since he does not shoot some because he is unwilling his USG rate will be lower.

When the hypothetical player is already on his team and your saying he is not a good fit you need to give examples of players that would fit. Embid is a good 3 pt shoot. Since I have asked for a Center and you come with Curry your reading comprehension must be really poor. Either that or you dont understand that Curry does not play Center. BTW Curry is more ball dominate then Embid.

Don’t listen to that fucking idiot who keeps misusing the stat.

Here’s the actual formula, and not a simplified version that’s making him misunderstand what the stat means.

Usg% - Usage Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * ((FGA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fga) + 0.44 * FTA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fta) + TOV (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#tov)) * (Tm (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#team)MP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#mp) / 5)) / (MP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#mp) * (Tm (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#team)FGA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fga) + 0.44 * Tm (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#team)FTA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fta) + Tm (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#team)TOV (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#tov))).

the player’s own FG attempts IS accounted for. This dumbass doesn’t realize that.

[talkspurs]

USG = any possession by a player that ends in a shot, an assist or a TO. That accounts for assists, but thanks for letting us know how little you know about the stat.

Reading comprehension. Dont see AST anywhere in the formula.

Usg% - Usage Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * ((FGA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fga) + 0.44 * FTA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fta) + TOV (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#tov)) * (Tm (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#team) MP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#mp) / 5)) / (MP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#mp) * (Tm (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#team) FGA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fga) + 0.44 * Tm (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#team) FTA (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#fta) + Tm (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#team) TOV (https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html#tov))). Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

[Dverde]

According to Charania, the 76ers offered up Simmons for McCollum, three first-round picks and three pick swaps but the Blazers said no.…:lol Morey’s proposals are so ridiculous.

[Mr. Body]

According to Charania, the 76ers offered up Simmons for McCollum, three first-round picks and three pick swaps but the Blazers said no.…:lol Morey’s proposals are so ridiculous.

I would take McCollum over Simmons any day; the picks and swaps should go the other way.

[Chinook]

Yes I did look at the list and I know most top teams will have more then 1 on it. However Philly has 3 and has not made it to the finals. and before you say Brooklyn. They have for 1 season (and not even a full season) and had a weird season and they also had lots of injuries. The only time Philly made it to the eastern conference championship Ben was not playing.

That doesn't mean anything. Your point was that Simmons being the 19th-highest-paid player is too much for a second option. I'm assuming you mean second option on a contender, since he'd the the best player on this team any many others. The issue is that contenders have multiple players making more than Ben and if they don't it's only because their guys are on rookie deals or maxes that keep their salary lower than Simmons. Like for Utah, both of their best players are going to be on huge maxes. Their deals just happen to not be bigger than Simmons' this season. Denver signed Jokic earlier, and Murray signed the same contract but didn't meet the requires ... because he's not as good as Simmons. If the Spurs draft some superstar and also trade for Simmons or get Simmons and bring in some guy making more money or whatever, it wouldn't be a big deal for Ben to be on his contract. You can't moneyball in the NBA. It doesn't work. You pay out the nose and you gun for it when you can. Ultimately, even a marginal increase is worth a ton of money in a league with a soft cap and max contracts.

[alfahdlan]

USG = any possession by a player that ends in a shot, an assist or a TO. That accounts for assists, but thanks for letting us know how little you know about the stat.

if you lead NBA in USG it means you have to pass more. The way I understand it.

[raybies]

A Poeltl, Ben, Johnson front court won't work. If McDermott was there instead, i don't see the issues.
He's a point..?

[KingKev]

He's a point..?

He has played some point forward the last few years.

[spurraider21]

I would take McCollum over Simmons any day; the picks and swaps should go the other way.
:lmao

[tbdog]

He's a point..?

Yeah, I suppose.

[Mr. Body]

:lmao

Bruh, check out McCollum's playoff stats. Only thing Simmons has over him is he's younger and his defense, and his defense is wildly overrated. Plus he can't play down the stretch. Philly with McCollum would be savage. Simmons doesn't even fit Portland that well.

[tbdog]

Bruh, check out McCollum's playoff stats. Only thing Simmons has over him is he's younger and his defense, and his defense is wildly overrated. Plus he can't play down the stretch. Philly with McCollum would be savage. Simmons doesn't even fit Portland that well.

Hard disagree. Simmons D is the best in the league. Can and will guard 5 to 1. Will only struggling guarding the best 5, which is like 5 teams. You can play Simmons down the stretch. We are talking about one really bad playoff run by him. That points to something was happening in the locker room.

Put it this way, if you can play Poeltl down the stretch, then you can play Simmons.

Finally, we have seen the best of Mccollum. He isn't getting any better. He isn't a good number 2.

[raybies]

Yeah, I suppose.

Sorry if that was a douchey thing to say, I was tired last night and you are a very respectable poster... Anyhow, I think ideally if Morey wasn't being such a buffoon and he could be had, I'd slot him at the point and play with size.

But I've been going back and forth with this. I kind of want to see what we got. A player like Ben has some kind of gravity to him and I know he could help this reimagining of the bgame but you wonder if the ball stops and what does he do when he's open from three... It is what it is. Still think once we get a better idea of what we have that we need to cash in so to speak. We have a glut of wings and bottom line is Primo needs minutes.

[KingKev]

Sorry if that was a douchey thing to say, I was tired last night and you are a very respectable poster... Anyhow, I think ideally if Morey wasn't being such a buffoon and he could be had, I'd slot him at the point and play with size.

But I've been going back and forth with this. I kind of want to see what we got. A player like Ben has some kind of gravity to him and I know he could help this reimagining of the bgame but you wonder if the ball stops and what does he do when he's open from three... It is what it is. Still think once we get a better idea of what we have that we need to cash in so to speak. We have a glut of wings and bottom line is Primo needs minutes.

Primo will get all the minutes he desires leading the Austin Spurs. If you want Simmons it’ll take two of DJ/White/Keldon, Thad plus minimum 2 draft picks with little to no protection. May I remind you we are lottery bound so losing those pics will be painful.

[tbdog]

Sorry if that was a douchey thing to say, I was tired last night and you are a very respectable poster... Anyhow, I think ideally if Morey wasn't being such a buffoon and he could be had, I'd slot him at the point and play with size.

But I've been going back and forth with this. I kind of want to see what we got. A player like Ben has some kind of gravity to him and I know he could help this reimagining of the bgame but you wonder if the ball stops and what does he do when he's open from three... It is what it is. Still think once we get a better idea of what we have that we need to cash in so to speak. We have a glut of wings and bottom line is Primo needs minutes.

It's okay. I don't see Simmons as a pure point. I think guards in general are still needed. They move off the ball quicker, move around screens quicker, dribble quicker, drive quicker, etc. Take LeBron for example, he always wanted more point guards on his team. It's like every trade deadline he wanted another point guard. Going forward, i see simmons as a point 4.

[raybies]

It's okay. I don't see Simmons as a pure point. I think guards in general are still needed. They move off the ball quicker, move around screens quicker, dribble quicker, drive quicker, etc. Take LeBron for example, he always wanted more point guards on his team. It's like every trade deadline he wanted another point guard. Going forward, i see simmons as a point 4.
fair enough. I don't really want Ben... it's more of a "so readily available thing." I think a dynamic big with experience would be better. I like our kids right now and need to see more.

[Mr. Body]

Hard disagree. Simmons D is the best in the league. Can and will guard 5 to 1.

Lol, what the fuck bro. This thread is fucking hilarious.

[Dverde]

I’d trade everyone on the Spurs roster minus Forbes for Simmons. We need Forbes to stretch the floor.

[Mr. Body]

Simmons is just another in the long line of this board getting obsessed with players. That player is suddenly GOD and can SOLVE ALL ISSUES. Earlier in the summer it was John Collins WHO WAS GOD and can SOLVE ALL ISSUES. Then he resigned and no one talks about him anymore. Y'all wildly overrating the dude as bad as you did Collins and Markkannen and... and... and...

[exstatic]

Simmons is just another in the long line of this board getting obsessed with players. That player is suddenly GOD and can SOLVE ALL ISSUES. Earlier in the summer it was John Collins WHO WAS GOD and can SOLVE ALL ISSUES. Then he resigned and no one talks about him anymore. Y'all wildly overrating the dude as bad as you did Collins and Markkannen and... and... and...

I hated Markkanen from the get go. To much Samanic energy. I was on board with JCollins, but not overboard. Simmons is on another level from both of those guys.

[Leetonidas]

I don't think a single player on this board said any of those players were "GODS" who could solve all issues :lol that's just weird hyperbole you're making up tbh.

People talked about Lauri and Collins because they were FAs and we had cap space...why you rag on people for having discussions on a message board i don't really understand. And no one talks about them because they signed with other teams. Why would we keep discussing them? :lol

No one is obsessed with Simmons. Rumors abound that the Spurs were interested in a young all-star that wanted out, so there's a thread where people are discussing it. Anything else is a weird spin/take on this thread :lol

[Mr. Body]

I hated Markkanen from the get go. To much Samanic energy. I was on board with JCollins, but not overboard. Simmons is on another level from both of those guys.

I'll put Simmons' incredible deficits as a human being and competitive player aside. He is a good player. But he's insanely overpaid. He is terrible in many facets of the game. He's a horrible fit for any developing team and even worse on the Spurs. And he does absolutey fuck-all to improve this team above where we are now. And then we get into character issues.

[Mr. Body]

I don't think a single player on this board said any of those players were "GODS" who could solve all issues :lol that's just weird hyperbole you're making up tbh.

People talked about Lauri and Collins because they were FAs and we had cap space...why you rag on people for having discussions on a message board i don't really understand. And no one talks about them because they signed with other teams. Why would we keep discussing them? :lol

No one is obsessed with Simmons. Rumors abound that the Spurs were interested in a young all-star that wanted out, so there's a thread where people are discussing it. Anything else is a weird spin/take on this thread :lol

Dude, this is my point. People were OBSESSED with Collins. They absolutely DID believe he was the god that solved all problems. It's exactly the stupid nonsense that's centering around this choad. People on this board go tunnel vision. Incapable of evaluating needs, skills, character, anything else, they start imagining this golden future where this player of their made-up dreams is the salve to all poisons. It's absurd every time it comes up.

[Leetonidas]

Dude, this is my point. People were OBSESSED with Collins. They absolutely DID believe he was the god that solved all problems. It's exactly the stupid nonsense that's centering around this choad. People on this board go tunnel vision. Incapable of evaluating needs, skills, character, anything else, they start imagining this golden future where this player of their made-up dreams is the salve to all poisons. It's absurd every time it comes up.

We're a team devoid of talent. to me it's moreso posters wanting the team to acquire talent and worry about the fit later. worry abut needs, fits, etc, seems pointless when we need basically everything. And again ,those two players were two of the marquee free agents this year that people thought we might have a legit shot of getting given the price tag. i really dont think anyone here expected John Collins to become David Robinson if he signed here. Fans want to see the team make moves to contend. i don't think that's so unreasonable

[Poolboy5623]

This is like AK47 all over again...how many more pages to go??

[manufan10]

1446461514207186946

[rjv]

https://media4.giphy.com/media/26grASJLVQG7tg8wM/giphy-downsized-large.gif

[exstatic]

I'll put Simmons' incredible deficits as a human being and competitive player aside. He is a good player. But he's insanely overpaid. He is terrible in many facets of the game. He's a horrible fit for any developing team and even worse on the Spurs. And he does absolutey fuck-all to improve this team above where we are now. And then we get into character issues.

He’s terrible at exactly one facet of the game. He’s an outstanding distributor, rebounder, and defender, and those qualities have put him on 3 AS teams, 2 All D teams, and one all NBA team. You don’t make any of those with multiple huge holes in your game.

I get that you don’t want him here, but flat lying and making shit up isn’t helping your case.

[BatManu20]

Lol returning to Philly after all that.


1447587238133608456

[Leetonidas]

Morey thinks Simmons value is going to go up while he pulls a Harden on the court and is already checked out? Lmao

[exstatic]

Morey thinks Simmons value is going to go up while he pulls a Harden on the court and is already checked out? Lmao

This. He’s not going to reconcile with the team. He’s not going to improve his value. He may even damage it more.

[manufan10]

1447598177897549834

This might be the better comparison than that of James Harden.

[Mr. Body]

He’s terrible at exactly one facet of the game. He’s an outstanding distributor, rebounder, and defender, and those qualities have put him on 3 AS teams, 2 All D teams, and one all NBA team. You don’t make any of those with multiple huge holes in your game.

I get that you don’t want him here, but flat lying and making shit up isn’t helping your case.

We know that defensive awards are complete shit, right? They're the worst awards in the league. Murray got one his first year. Duncan never won DPOY. They gave DPOY one year to Marcus fucking Camby. They're the idiot box of NBA awards.

Meanwhile, sure, he can rebound, but so can Westbrook. Getting rebounds for guards ain't that hard nowadays. So, sure. Big applause.

The guy is a worse free throw shooter than Jakob Poeltl. He can't shoot a lick. And he can't be played down the stretch because he can't shoot.

C'mon, man.

[Mr. Body]

Morey thinks Simmons value is going to go up while he pulls a Harden on the court and is already checked out? Lmao

This is more a favor to Simmons. Rich Paul is freaking out because his money is drying up. No one wants Simmons if he won't even show up to play. Once Harden showed up, he got traded. Teams need at least some guarantee that the player isn't a total nutjob and wants to play basketball. This is Philly trying to help a stupid, stupid, stupid player out. And for once in his life Rich Paul is acting like a professional, because he needs his money.

[baseline bum]

Lol returning to Philly after all that.


1447587238133608456

I can't wait to see the reception he gets. That's going to be some must see shit. :lmao

[Dverde]

Ben Simmons needs a better money man if he is hurting with this holdout. I’m pretty sure he’ll be okay financially

[raybies]

They just bringing him back to trade him later... like the clips did with Blake Griffin LUL

[mo7888]

This is more a favor to Simmons. Rich Paul is freaking out because his money is drying up. No one wants Simmons if he won't even show up to play. Once Harden showed up, he got traded. Teams need at least some guarantee that the player isn't a total nutjob and wants to play basketball. This is Philly trying to help a stupid, stupid, stupid player out. And for once in his life Rich Paul is acting like a professional, because he needs his money.

He under contract for several more years...how is his money drying up exactly? Are you extrapolating this out to say it's hurting him with other clients?

[exstatic]

This is more a favor to Simmons. Rich Paul is freaking out because his money is drying up. No one wants Simmons if he won't even show up to play. Once Harden showed up, he got traded. Teams need at least some guarantee that the player isn't a total nutjob and wants to play basketball. This is Philly trying to help a stupid, stupid, stupid player out. And for once in his life Rich Paul is acting like a professional, because he needs his money.

Simmons has already been paid until basically Thanksgiving. Happened in July. Nobody’s freaking out, except maybe Morey.

Rich Paul dumped Marcus Morris like a ugly girl after that Knicks debacle, so that isn’t even true, either. Do better.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Well, the East officially has one less contender this year unless he's traded later.

New Jersey, Miami and Milwaukee, in that order, methinks.

[Ocotillo]

Well, the East officially has one less contender this year unless he's traded later.

Brooklyn, Miami and Milwaukee, in that order, methinks.
Fixed it for you, I make the same mistake often.

[exstatic]

Fixed it for you, I make the same mistake often.

I’ve made this mistake enough times that I just say Nets now.

[pad300]

Well, the East officially has one less contender this year unless he's traded later.

New Jersey, Miami and Milwaukee, in that order, methinks.

You figure Miami over Milwaukee? Why?

[Russ]

I can't wait to see the reception he gets. That's going to be some must see shit. :lmao

I always thought the Spurs should have played it all the way out with Kawhi.

It will be interesting to see how it goes for Philly if they do.

Perhaps a glimpse into Christmas (or Scroogey anti-Christmas) past.

It's a gamble, but blinking to sell low is also a gamble. Do you want to maintain your image as player-friendly with the workforce? How much is that worth?

Welcome to the modern NBA.

[baseline bum]

I always thought the Spurs should have played it all the way out with Kawhi.

It will be interesting to see how it goes for Philly if they do.

Perhaps a glimpse into Christmas (or Scroogey anti-Christmas) past.

It's a gamble, but blinking to sell low is also a gamble. Do you want to maintain your image as player-friendly with the workforce? How much is that worth?

Welcome to the modern NBA.

Yeah I was the one saying just suspend Leonard for the season and let him sit out another year of his prime. Oh well, got Keldon out of that trade at least.

[John B]

I don’t like Morey, but in a way he’s putting a big “Up Yours” to potential “diva” forcing their way out of a team. I don’t think he gains from it though. I still think he should cut his losses and get the team behind Embiid as early as possible, avoiding any kind of distractions. Still, Morey is showing other teams how to handle it.

[TD 21]

Well, the East officially has one less contender this year unless he's traded later.

New Jersey, Miami and Milwaukee, in that order, methinks.

The 76ers haven't been a contender in the Embiid-Simmons era and won't be post Simmons unless they luck into trading him + whatever is required for for Lillard or Beal.

The Heat aren't contenders either.

Only the Nets, Bucks and maybe Lakers are. The Clippers and probably Nuggets would be, if/when healthy.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Fixed it for you, I make the same mistake often.

Oops...thanks!! Old habits! :lol

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

You figure Miami over Milwaukee? Why?

I think Milwaukee got weaker. And, as we know, it's hard to keep that intensity up after winning the title. I like the addition of Lowry, if he has anything left in the tank. Same for P.J. Tucker. Miami has a nice mix of youth and veterans and some pretty good shooting to boot. I wasn't excited with Milwaukee's off-season. We'll see.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Yeah I was the one saying just suspend Leonard for the season and let him sit out another year of his prime. Oh well, got Keldon out of that trade at least.

I just don't think the Spurs were accustomed to dealing with divas like Kawhi. They certainly didn't score great in their handling of the situation, but nephew also made it tougher on them than it needed to be.

He knocked this franchise on its butt with his antics. The Spurs will climb out of it, but had he played ball a little bit (literally) he could have made it better on everyone. B!tch moves by a little b!tch.

[Trainwreck2100]

Yeah I was the one saying just suspend Leonard for the season and let him sit out another year of his prime. Oh well, got Keldon out of that trade at least.

would have been nice but if the Spurs called Kawhi's bluff he'd agree to play then find a doc to sideline him, like Simmons will probably end up doing if he stays

[Russ]

would have been nice but if the Spurs called Kawhi's bluff he'd agree to play then find a doc to sideline him, like Simmons will probably end up doing if he stays

Could be wrong, but I seem to recall the NBA sets up a neutral panel of doctors at that point. Again, could be wrong.

[BillMc]

The 76ers haven't been a contender in the Embiid-Simmons era and won't be post Simmons unless they luck into trading him + whatever is required for for Lillard or Beal.

The Heat aren't contenders either.

Only the Nets, Bucks and maybe Lakers are. The Clippers and probably Nuggets would be, if/when healthy.

I haven't really followed the Celtics but what happened to them? Only a few years ago, they were full of youth and picks, and were knocking on the conference finals, but they seemed to have squandered it.

[baseline bum]

would have been nice but if the Spurs called Kawhi's bluff he'd agree to play then find a doc to sideline him, like Simmons will probably end up doing if he stays

Would have been fine with me. Waste another year of his prime.

[JeffDuncan]

Could be wrong, but I seem to recall the NBA sets up a neutral panel of doctors at that point. Again, could be wrong.


I believe that's only where there's a condition that might be life-threatening, such as Ingram's blood clots, or LMA's heart condition, and a disagreement arises whether he can safely play. In that case an NBA panel of doctors can examine the issue, to decide if the player should be allowed to participate.

In cases of injury, I believe the CBA provides only that the player has a right to a second medical opinion -- which is how Leonard ended up in NY, iirc. He went there for the second opinion, and then never came back.

[TD 21]

I haven't really followed the Celtics but what happened to them? Only a few years ago, they were full of youth and picks, and were knocking on the conference finals, but they seemed to have squandered it.

They had too many prime and young star or starter level players 3 seasons ago, which led to inevitable chemistry issues. Since then, they lost Irving, Rozier, Morris, Hayward in free agency, failed to make their dream Davis trade or any big trade period, had some bad luck with teams like the Grizzlies and Kings being better than expected certain years which lessened the value of their picks which they owned and have yet to get much out of many of their post Tatum and Brown picks.

Despite all that and current Heat hype, I actually think they're probably the third best team in the East.

[Maddog]

I always thought the Spurs should have played it all the way out with Kawhi.

It will be interesting to see how it goes for Philly if they do.

Perhaps a glimpse into Christmas (or Scroogey anti-Christmas) past.

It's a gamble, but blinking to sell low is also a gamble. Do you want to maintain your image as player-friendly with the workforce? How much is that worth?

Welcome to the modern NBA.


Yeah I was the one saying just suspend Leonard for the season and let him sit out another year of his prime. Oh well, got Keldon out of that trade at least.

I always wondered if it crossed the Spurs mind, or seek some sort of compensation for the year he didn't play due "injury".
The situations though are not quite the same. Simmons has 4 years left, nephew only 1. They're a little similar as neither had or has much of a market. Neph, because he had only one year left and Simmons because he has 4 years left at high dollar with a huge flaw in his game.

[baseline bum]

I always wondered if it crossed the Spurs mind, or seek some sort of compensation for the year he didn't play due "injury".
The situations though are not quite the same. Simmons has 4 years left, nephew only 1. They're a little similar as neither had or has much of a market. Neph, because he had only one year left and Simmons because he has 4 years left at high dollar with a huge flaw in his game.

Leonard had two years left when he started sitting out.

[tbdog]

They had too many prime and young star or starter level players 3 seasons ago, which led to inevitable chemistry issues. Since then, they lost Irving, Rozier, Morris, Hayward in free agency, failed to make their dream Davis trade or any big trade period, had some bad luck with teams like the Grizzlies and Kings being better than expected certain years which lessened the value of their picks which they owned and have yet to get much out of many of their post Tatum and Brown picks.

Despite all that and current Heat hype, I actually think they're probably the third best team in the East.

Yeah, and Ainge has no loyalty. I think players have caught on.

[Chinook]

Also, Tatum is just now good enough to do what the Celtics needed him to do when guys like Kemba and Hayward were physically able to be championship pieces. Brown's a very good player, but the Celtics are likely going to have to trade him in the move for a real star. They're also going to have to draft way better than they have recently. They've had several busts as big as Sam over the years. They should have excellent depth at least, but they are razor thin. It's rather inexcusable how badly Ainge handled his war chest outside of two very good picks.

[exstatic]

Yeah, and Ainge has no loyalty. I think players have caught on.

Neither does Morey. The players he’s dumped could become their own entire league. I don’t feel sorry at all about the predicament he finds himself in.

[Russ]

Leonard had two years left when he started sitting out.

Three years, I think, if you count the option year.

In other words, Kawhi actually played only two years of a five year deal. (And he essentially missed the last two playoff series of the second year.)

[Spurs9]

Ben Simmons has landed in Philly :lol

[mo7888]

Took his covid test.... I guess they have to pay him the 25% of his salary now....so he can afford to tell Morey to suck it and sit out next week lol

[KobesAchilles]

Also, Tatum is just now good enough to do what the Celtics needed him to do when guys like Kemba and Hayward were physically able to be championship pieces. Brown's a very good player, but the Celtics are likely going to have to trade him in the move for a real star. They're also going to have to draft way better than they have recently. They've had several busts as big as Sam over the years. They should have excellent depth at least, but they are razor thin. It's rather inexcusable how badly Ainge handled his war chest outside of two very good picks.
Any way we can get him? Maybe trade our 1st for him when they flame out at the end of the year. I don’t see us drafting a guy as good as Brown and SG is an actual need at this point. Plus he’s young enough to survive one year of a proper tank next year. Him, Murray, and KJ, would be intriguing

[Chinook]

Any way we can get him? Maybe trade our 1st for him when they flame out at the end of the year. I don’t see us drafting a guy as good as Brown and SG is an actual need at this point. Plus he’s young enough to survive one year of a proper tank next year. Him, Murray, and KJ, would be intriguing

You're probably looking at White, Primo/Vassell (whichever looks better) and at least one first. I could definitely see that being an overpay, but Boston would need a lot to sell Brown. He's got at least the same value as Simmons, considering where their teams are. The best I could see the Spurs doing is coming in as the third team in like a Lillard trade and taking Brown for a ton of future value to Portland, who'd want to tank if they decide to move Dame.

[Mr. Body]

Bored with Simmons, is everyone going to fall in love with Brown now?

[exstatic]

Took his covid test.... I guess they have to pay him the 25% of his salary now....so he can afford to tell Morey to suck it and sit out next week lol

He’s already been paid 25% in July. He should get the second 25% now. If he really wants out, he should tell Morey that he has until the February trade deadline, and then he’s walking. No stretch run, no playoffs

[R. DeMurre]

I think Milwaukee got weaker. And, as we know, it's hard to keep that intensity up after winning the title. I like the addition of Lowry, if he has anything left in the tank. Same for P.J. Tucker. Miami has a nice mix of youth and veterans and some pretty good shooting to boot. I wasn't excited with Milwaukee's off-season. We'll see.

I have to disagree on Milwaukee! They lost Tucker, who will turn 37 this season and actually had pretty bad advanced stats. I'm guessing some of his minutes will be replaced by Jordan Nwora, who is 23, a much better 3 pt shooter, 3" taller, and who played extremely well in summer league. Barring injury, DiVincenzo will be back for the next playoff run, and he's better than Forbes or McTeague, the two guards they lost this off season. Ojeleye, Allen, & Hood can all hit threes, so they work as deeper bench guys. Portis and Holiday are more firmly acclimated. I think they're better, especially if Nwora develops into a regular net positive rotation guy, which I think he will.

[Spursfanfromafar]

I have to disagree on Milwaukee! They lost Tucker, who will turn 37 this season and actually had pretty bad advanced stats. I'm guessing some of his minutes will be replaced by Jordan Nwora, who is 23, a much better 3 pt shooter, 3" taller, and who played extremely well in summer league. Barring injury, DiVincenzo will be back for the next playoff run, and he's better than Forbes or McTeague, the two guards they lost this off season. Ojeleye, Allen, & Hood can all hit threes, so they work as deeper bench guys. Portis and Holiday are more firmly acclimated. I think they're better, especially if Nwora develops into a regular net positive rotation guy, which I think he will.

I agree. Milwaukee are better on paper than Miami but will have a tough time only against Brooklyn as Kevin Durant just makes a huge load of difference and it will be too much to ask Antetokounmpo to guard him alone. Brooklyn should weather its nonsensical Kyrie Irving storm over the course of the season. If they do that, they will be the favourites. If they dont and the distraction snowballs into disruption, Milwaukee will remain favourites.

The irony is that both Milwaukee and the Nets are where they are now because of two former Spurs alumni - Coach Bud and Sean Marks :(

[Sugus]

I have to disagree on Milwaukee! They lost Tucker, who will turn 37 this season and actually had pretty bad advanced stats. I'm guessing some of his minutes will be replaced by Jordan Nwora, who is 23, a much better 3 pt shooter, 3" taller, and who played extremely well in summer league. Barring injury, DiVincenzo will be back for the next playoff run, and he's better than Forbes or McTeague, the two guards they lost this off season. Ojeleye, Allen, & Hood can all hit threes, so they work as deeper bench guys. Portis and Holiday are more firmly acclimated. I think they're better, especially if Nwora develops into a regular net positive rotation guy, which I think he will.

Wholly agree on this, and you left out the most important factor in MWK getting better: Giannis is now a champion, a proven #1 option, an experienced player. He'll be healthy after an off-season of rehab on his knee, and given his mindset, he's probably not gonna be any less hungry than he was last season. That confidence and swagger is an absolute edge, especially for a two-way force like him, and will give him the confidence to expand his game further.

To a lesser degree, Middleton should benefit from this too, though I've always kind of disliked his volatility. Never looked like a guy you could rely on to me, but he's a champion now, too, so who gives a shit what I think of him...

[KobesAchilles]

Bored with Simmons, is everyone going to fall in love with Brown now?
Pretty much. Though Brown does everything you want for SG. Hits the 3, can put it on the deck, and is a team player

[raybies]

Is Jaylen Brown actually on the market?

[mo7888]

Is Jaylen Brown actually on the market?

Nope

[raybies]

Nope
Then who are they talking about LUL

I'm over here scratching my head looking for trade rumors ... :/

Shit I'd give my left nut for Jaylen... LUL metaphorically speaking of course..

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I have to disagree on Milwaukee! They lost Tucker, who will turn 37 this season and actually had pretty bad advanced stats. I'm guessing some of his minutes will be replaced by Jordan Nwora, who is 23, a much better 3 pt shooter, 3" taller, and who played extremely well in summer league. Barring injury, DiVincenzo will be back for the next playoff run, and he's better than Forbes or McTeague, the two guards they lost this off season. Ojeleye, Allen, & Hood can all hit threes, so they work as deeper bench guys. Portis and Holiday are more firmly acclimated. I think they're better, especially if Nwora develops into a regular net positive rotation guy, which I think he will.

I hope you're correct, because I certainly will be rooting for Milwaukee this season over both Brooklyn and Miami.

You're definitely correct in the fact that Milwaukee got better by getting rid of Bryn.

Fvck!

[R. DeMurre]

I have to disagree on Milwaukee! They lost Tucker, who will turn 37 this season and actually had pretty bad advanced stats. I'm guessing some of his minutes will be replaced by Jordan Nwora, who is 23, a much better 3 pt shooter, 3" taller, and who played extremely well in summer league. Barring injury, DiVincenzo will be back for the next playoff run, and he's better than Forbes or McTeague, the two guards they lost this off season. Ojeleye, Allen, & Hood can all hit threes, so they work as deeper bench guys. Portis and Holiday are more firmly acclimated. I think they're better, especially if Nwora develops into a regular net positive rotation guy, which I think he will.

Oops... :lol I meant the NBA player Jeff Teague, not the character in the old Frank Norris novel.

[Slippy]

So the talk is Ben is open to going back to the sixers . Not sure if the relationship is fixable but the fine by the sixers definitily has had an impact on Ben holding out. His party after being told they had no way of getting that fine money back are now in talks about resuming with the sixers.

Definitely over this drama . A template on how to handle the disgruntled star trying force his way out? Hopefully the spurs are taking note.

Always felt the spurs should of taken more of a hard line approach in the past in regards to the mute.

[BacktoBasics]

So the talk is Ben is open to going back to the sixers . Not sure if the relationship is fixable but the fine by the sixers definitily has had an impact on Ben holding out. His party after being told they had no way of getting that fine money back are now in talks about resuming with the sixers.

Definitely over this drama . A template on how to handle the disgruntled star trying force his way out? Hopefully the spurs are taking note.

Always felt the spurs should of taken more of a hard line approach in the past in regards to the mute.
It’s not that he’s open to going back to the Sixers as much as he’s open to not losing anymore money.

[John B]

So the talk is Ben is open to going back to the sixers . Not sure if the relationship is fixable but the fine by the sixers definitily has had an impact on Ben holding out. His party after being told they had no way of getting that fine money back are now in talks about resuming with the sixers.

Definitely over this drama . A template on how to handle the disgruntled star trying force his way out? Hopefully the spurs are taking note.

Always felt the spurs should of taken more of a hard line approach in the past in regards to the mute.

I still don’t see how this will turn good for Morey and the Sixers. He’s just delaying the inevitable. Simmons is gone in spirit. He’s probably just agreeing so not to get penalized more and just wait out at least getting paid (see Harden). It’s not going to look good in the locker room. The earlier the Sixers move on and get Embiid and the team the suitable replacement, the better and avoid any more distractions.

[Slippy]

It’s not that he’s open to going back to the Sixers as much as he’s open to not losing anymore money.

Ya thats pretty much what im saying . Money talks

[Slippy]

I still don’t see how this will turn good for Morey and the Sixers. He’s just delaying the inevitable. Simmons is gone in spirit. He’s probably just agreeing so not to get penalized more and just wait out at least getting paid (see Harden). It’s not going to look good in the locker room. The earlier the Sixers move on and get Embiid and the team the suitable replacement, the better and avoid any more distractions.

Agree, this will happen. Getting back on court has pluses.. It might heal wounds and other interested teams get to see if Bens offeseason has improved his shooting. That will quell the doubt one way or another.

[SpurSpike]

Anyone think that there could be a Simmons for Kylie deal at some point? Would get both teams what they are looking for, 76 get a star player and nets get a player that is vaccinated and can play.

[mo7888]

Then who are they talking about LUL

I'm over here scratching my head looking for trade rumors ... :/

Shit I'd give my left nut for Jaylen... LUL metaphorically speaking of course..

Lol.... I think people are just bored so they're throwing it out there on the hope that Boston underperforms and they shake things up next offseason...

[Leetonidas]

Anyone think that there could be a Simmons for Kylie deal at some point? Would get both teams what they are looking for, 76 get a star player and nets get a player that is vaccinated and can play.

scratch that one

1448189300848226305

[R. DeMurre]

Somehow it all seems perfectly fitting that the same guy who questioned whether the earth was really round a few years ago (and then chastised the press for "making it a story") is now the self appointed spokesperson for the unvaccinated.