*** Official Israel vs Hamas war #13783478343 thread ***

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If Israel's actions fit the literal definitions of "blockade" and "genocide" that isn't cheap or facile to point out. It's objective.

While I certainly respect the argument that the use of dumb munitions is a huge problem. I think that the amount of aid that is getting through needs to increase and efforts need to be made to create a distribution network.

It's hard to discuss actual solutions when you insist the IDF is intentionally targeting civilians and unilaterally blocking aid when you have no evidence that is the case.

[Thread]

While I certainly respect the argument that the use of dumb munitions is a huge problem. I think that the amount of aid that is getting through needs to increase and efforts need to be made to create a distribution network.

It's hard to discuss actual solutions when you insist the IDF is intentionally targeting civilians and unilaterally blocking aid when you have no evidence that is the case.

Winester is right here.
You are wrong here.

Winester

[Winehole23]

The Twitter thread (https://twitter.com/ishaan_jhavs/status/1738240404787548386) includes technical details not contained in the newsprint article.

Israel warned Gazans to relocate to safe areas, then bombed them there. The bombing continues.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GB90k2BXkAAxrnz?format=jpg&name=small



1738240404787548386

[Winehole23]

WaPo thinks the evidence for Al-Shifa Hospital being a Hamas command center is weak.


After storming the complex (https://archive.ph/o/6MvFC/https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/15/israel-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas/) on Nov. 15, the IDF released a series of photographs and videos that it said proved its central point.

“Terrorists came here to command their operations,” Hagari said in a video published Nov. 22, guiding viewers through an underground tunnel, illuminating dark and empty rooms beneath al-Shifa.

But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials. That raises critical questions, legal and humanitarian experts say, about whether the civilian harm caused by Israel’s military operations against the hospital — encircling, besieging and ultimately raiding the facility and the tunnel beneath it — were proportionate to the assessed threat.

The Post’s analysis shows:


[*=left]The rooms connected to the tunnel network discovered by IDF troops showed no immediate evidence of military use by Hamas.
[*=left]None of the five hospital buildings identified by Hagari appeared to be connected to the tunnel network.
[*=left]There is no evidence that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards.


https://archive.ph/6MvFC#selection-617.0-729.83

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You understand that stuff that does not make it in to ones articles is because it is unverified much like your tweet.

:lol trolling twitter for outrage material. Holiday in Cambodia indeed.

[Winehole23]

You understand that stuff that does not make it in to ones articles is because it is unverified much like your tweet.

:lol trolling twitter for outrage material. Holiday in Cambodia indeed.It's the Twitter account of the NYT visual investigations guy. There's a parallel article in the NYT, but, as I mentioned previously, I linked the twitter thread because it lays out methodology not included in the article.

I guess we'll just have to pretend nothing is happening in Gaza and the no one is telling the truth until it can all be independently confirmed at a later date.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's the Twitter account of the NYT investigations guy. There's a parallel article in the NYT, but, as I mentioned previously, I linked the twitter thread because it lays out methodology not included in the article.

I guess we'll just have to pretend nothing is happening in Gaza until it can all be independently confirmed at a later date.

They did not have your scenario of IDF directing people to a place then bombing it. He is just showing bomb craters in the south and admits he has no time line for them.

Is Hamas operating in the south?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

WaPo thinks the evidence for Al-Shifa Hospital being a Hamas command center is weak.

https://archive.ph/6MvFC#selection-617.0-729.83

As a CiC sure but there is no question that it was part of their infrastructure due to the facilities they unquestionably had under the hospital.

[Thread]

They did not have your scenario of IDF directing people to a place then bombing it. He is just showing bomb craters in the south and admits he has no time line for them.

Is Hamas operating in the south?

I'll boil it down for ya, Lumps>>>The Holocaust

[Winehole23]

They did not have your scenario of IDF directing people to a place then bombing it. He is just showing bomb craters in the south and admits he has no time line for them.

Is Hamas operating in the south?how would Hamas drop a 2000 pound bomb? it beggars credibility to think they'd have something that destructive and only use it on themselves.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

how would Hamas drop a 2000 pound bomb? it beggars credibility to think they'd have something that destructive and only use it on themselves.

I am saying that if Hamas is operating anywhere they can expect to be bombed. They have in the past and are still operating in the South.

[ChumpDumper]

I am saying that if Hamas is operating anywhere they can expect to be bombed. They have in the past and are still operating in the South.

So no place is safe for civilians and children.

[Thread]

So no place is safe for civilians and children.

...or, the 45th President of the United States for that matter.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So no place is safe for civilians and children.

It's a war zone so no. However going to where the aid is coming in and being distributed is safer than where Hamas is. Men and soldiers are not safe there either.

[ChumpDumper]

It's a war zone so no. However going to where the aid is coming in and being distributed is safer than where Hamas is.

You sure about that?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You sure about that?

If there were incidents of aid camps getting blown up your lot would be posting them. Instead you are looking for bomb craters, waving your hands, and screaming genocide.

Conversely I can find all kinds of examples of Hamas installations being bombed.

You have a point beyond your White Knighting, Chumpie?

[ChumpDumper]

If there were incidents of aid camps getting blown up your lot would be posting them. Instead you are looking for bomb craters, waving your hands, and screaming genocide.You'll have to post the quotes from me on that or fold. Your grudgerage is so high you can't keep track of who said what.


Conversely I can find all kinds of examples of Hamas installations being bombed.:lol no shit


You have a point beyond your White Knighting, Chumpie?:lol personal attacks

I'll wait for all those quotes I made.

[ChumpDumper]

And since you dodged a direct question again, I can only conclude you aren't sure at all.:tu

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You'll have to post the quotes from me on that or fold. Your grudgerage is so high you can't keep track of who said what.

:lol no shit

:lol personal attacks

I'll wait for all those quotes I made.

No point as usual.

I was referring to your fair maidens tweets we were discussing. Of course even in the hours since you've started your gallantry, I suppose there was too much read to see what was being discussed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And since you dodged a direct question again, I can only conclude you aren't sure at all.:tu

Of course because you can only assume your premise to be true as opposed to making an argument.

Your question not being answered just means you are as ignorant as before. Nothing less and nothing more.

[ChumpDumper]

[no receipts]
Quit lying and you'll be less angry.

[Thread]

Of course because you can only assume your premise to be true as opposed to making an argument.

Your question not being answered just means you are as ignorant as before. Nothing less and nothing more.

Get him, Lumps!!!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Quit lying and you'll be less angry.

I find you amusing. I recommend introspection.

I try to talk about the subject and you want to talk about me. Mad is as mad does.

[ChumpDumper]

I find you amusing. I recommend introspection.

I try to talk about the subject and you want to talk about me. Mad is as mad does.You are only talking about me.

I recommend you calm down and quit trying to impress people here.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You are only talking about me.

I recommend you calm down and quit trying to impress people here.

Here is my post trying to get you to talk about the issue:


If there were incidents of aid camps getting blown up your lot would be posting them. Instead you are looking for bomb craters, waving your hands, and screaming genocide.

Conversely I can find all kinds of examples of Hamas installations being bombed.

You have a point beyond your White Knighting, Chumpie?

and here is your completely non-topical response completely about me or how you will beat me.


You'll have to post the quotes from me on that or fold. Your grudgerage is so high you can't keep track of who said what.

:lol no shit

:lol personal attacks

I'll wait for all those quotes I made.

It's so cute too because you simultaneously do nothing but personal attacks and with the same brain you blame me for them. You must've been quite mad.

Anywho you guys still have no evidence that IDF is intentionally targeting civilians. Deal with it.

ANd yes my antagonizing people and actinlg like pedantic dick is to 'impress' people,

No compare and contrast, you jumping in any time another certain poster gets into an argument to save the day. That behavior is approval seeking.

[ChumpDumper]

Here is my post trying to get you to talk about the issue:



and here is your completely non-topical response completely about me or how you will beat me.



It's so cute too because you simultaneously do nothing but personal attacks and with the same brain you blame me for them. You must've been quite mad.

Anywho you guys still have no evidence that IDF is intentionally targeting civilians. Deal with it.Why does it have to be intentional to be bad?

That wasn't my question to you. Quit lying.

You dodge direct questions all he time.

ANd yes my antagonizing people and actinlg like pedantic dick is to 'impress' people,

No compare and contrast, you jumping in any time another certain poster gets into an argument to save the day. That behavior is approval seeking.

:lol all you did was lie about what I posted and launch your pet personal attack of the month. You can't even see what you're doing these days when it's spelled out to you.

You come across as just an angry, angry person.

I asked you a simple, direct question and you had to go form a full on conspiracy theory about my motives and relationships and mental health.

You are plainly and definitely overreacting and have been for quite some time.

Why?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol all you did was lie about what I posted and launch your pet personal attack of the month. You can't even see what you're doing these days when it's spelled out to you.

You come across as just an angry, angry person.

I asked you a simple, direct question and you had to go form a full on conspiracy theory about my motives and relationships and mental health.

You are plainly and definitely overreacting and have been for quite some time.

Why?

You were picking up Wine's argument.

I am trying to talk about the Hamas war. You do nothing still but talk about me.

You are starting to sound like Joey with your unjustified assertions. What quote makes me sound mad?

For comparison I think you are mad hen you make claims like this or "you lied," "all you try to do," and similar problem nonsense.

Do you have proof of IDF targeting civilians or do you just want to grind your axe?

[ChumpDumper]

You were picking up Wine's argument.

I am trying to talk about the Hamas war. You do nothing still but talk about me.
:lol my direct question to you wsa about the Hamas war.


You are starting to sound like Joey with your unjustified assertions. What quote makes me sound mad?:lmao are you joking? You're being ridiculous.


For comparison I think you are mad hen you make claims like this or "you lied," "all you try to do," and similar problem nonsense.Except you do lie.

"All the time" is hyperbole, but you haven't stopped lying.

Do you have proof of IDF targeting civilians or do you just want to grind your axe?Again, you're lying about what I said.

I never made this claim.

You are fighting a straw man with ad hominems.

You're just becoming a living, breathing fallacy.

[Thread]

You were picking up Wine's argument.

I am trying to talk about the Hamas war. You do nothing still but talk about me.

You are starting to sound like Joey with your unjustified assertions. What quote makes me sound mad?

For comparison I think you are mad hen you make claims like this or "you lied," "all you try to do," and similar problem nonsense.

Do you have proof of IDF targeting civilians or do you just want to grind your axe?

...he's waiting for Trump to win again so he can use it on him, Lumps.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol my direct question to you wsa about the Hamas war.

:lmao are you joking? You're being ridiculous.

Except you do lie.

"All the time" is hyperbole, but you haven't stopped lying.
Again, you're lying about what I said.

I never made this claim.

You are fighting a straw man with ad hominems.

You're just becoming a living, breathing fallacy.

The lack off self awareness is awesome Chumpie. That bolded part in particculary.

If you want to talk about the Hamas War I will respond. Elsewise, there is nothing gained here so I will let you havve a last rant iff it comes to that.

Chump nor Wine has demonstrated any evidence that IDF targets civilians.

[ChumpDumper]

The lack off self awareness is awesome Chumpie. That bolded part in particculary.

If you want to talk about the Hamas War I will respond. Elsewise, there is nothing gained here so I will let you havve a last rant iff it comes to that.

Chump nor Wine has demonstrated any evidence that IDF targets civilians.
:lol

Straw man.

U mad.

Call your therapist and tell her how mean we are to you.

According to US intelligence assessments seen by CNN, in this war, Israel had dropped more than 29,000 bombs on Gaza since the war began and mid-December, with 40-45% of these unguided.

These unguided bombs "can miss their target by up to 30m, which is the difference between hitting a Hamas HQ and an apartment packed with civilians", says Mr Garlasco, who has worked on three previous wars in Gaza and is now a military adviser for the Dutch peace organisation PAX.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67764664

I don't think anything needs to be intentionally targeted for civilian deaths to be horrific.

You're fine with them.

Why?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol

Straw man.

U mad.

Call your therapist and tell her how mean we are to you.

According to US intelligence assessments seen by CNN, in this war, Israel had dropped more than 29,000 bombs on Gaza since the war began and mid-December, with 40-45% of these unguided.

These unguided bombs "can miss their target by up to 30m, which is the difference between hitting a Hamas HQ and an apartment packed with civilians", says Mr Garlasco, who has worked on three previous wars in Gaza and is now a military adviser for the Dutch peace organisation PAX.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67764664

I don't think anything needs to be intentionally targeted for civilian deaths to be horrific.

You're fine with them.

Why?

It's funny you picked up wine's argument but did not even take the time to read what had been discussed.

I agree that the use of 2000 lbs bombs is problematic. I disagree with the insistence that it is intentionally used on civilians and given the US use of such weapons as well as cluster munitions and napalm and the context of those discussions, it is not quite as cut and dry as you make it seem.

Talk about strawmen.

[ChumpDumper]

It's funny you picked up wine's argument but did not even take the time to read what had been discussed.

I agree that the use of 2000 lbs bombs is problematic. I disagree with the insistence that it is intentionally used on civilians and given the US use of such weapons as well as cluster munitions and napalm and the context of those discussions, it is not quite as cut and dry as you make it seem.

Talk about strawmen.
:lmao you agree with us and then repeat your straw man

Someday you might become self-aware.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lmao you agree with us and then repeat your straw man

Someday you might become self-aware.

And you still have not read the discussion. Wine is claiming genocide. Try and keep up if you are going to claim victory.

:lol I'm not angry; I'm bored.

Compare with you using my material and trying dig after dig after dig.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Well we can conclude that Chump did not enter the discussion over the merit of the argument. He is making it very clear he has zero idea what Wine and I were arguing about.

So if that was not why then it increases the possibility that White Knight theory is valid. Throw in him bringing up my therapist and II think we have a winner.

[ChumpDumper]

And you still have not read the discussion. Wine is claiming genocide. Try and keep up if you are going to claim victory.:lmao thinking I am Winehole


:lol I'm not angry; I'm bored.

Compare with you using my material and trying dig after dig after dig.:lmao you try dig after dig after dig

I use your material on you because it fits and because you're the worst hypocrite here, genius.

Someday you might become self-aware.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lmao thinking I am Winehole

:lmao you try dig after dig after dig

I use your material on you because it fits and because you're the worst hypocrite here, genius.

Someday you might become self-aware.

Huh?


:lmao you agree with us and then repeat your straw man

You were speaking of you and them in terms of us.

This reactionary stuff is boring again. You have zero merit here once again. Perhaps you can draw me back in with more on topic article, even if extremely obtuse, otherwise last rant is yours.

[ChumpDumper]

Huh?



You were speaking of you and them in terms of us.About the problematic bombs.

You still can't help but lie and make your straw man about something I didn't say.


This reactionary stuff is boring again. You have zero merit here once again. Perhaps you can draw me back in with more on topic article, even if extremely obtuse, otherwise last rant is yours.Good.

You're a coward. You can't answer direct questions and your ego is as large as it is fragile. You're extremely defensive about Israel's actions in this war and that further clouds your already opaque judgment. You are much less intelligent than you try to portray yourself and you're obsessed with Joey of all fucking people.:lol

You agree with US that 2000 lb. dumb bombs in one of the most densely populated areas on earth is "problematic" although you don't really have a problem with the civilian deaths if you were actually going to be honest about it.

You can't

[ChumpDumper]

Instructing civilians to go to an area and claiming they will be safe in that area then bombing that area isn't specific targeting, but it is "problematic."

[FuzzyLumpkins]

About the problematic bombs.

You still can't help but lie and make your straw man about something I didn't say.

Good.

You're a coward. You can't answer direct questions and your ego is as large as it is fragile. You're extremely defensive about Israel's actions in this war and that further clouds your already opaque judgment. You are much less intelligent than you try to portray yourself and you're obsessed with Joey of all fucking people.:lol

You agree with US that 2000 lb. dumb bombs in one of the most densely populated areas on earth is "problematic" although you don't really have a problem with the civilian deaths if you were actually going to be honest about it.

You can't

I was arguing with wine. I was taking issue with them using terms like genocide. You came in and clearly had no idea what the argument was about.

Most recently you said that I agreed with you both. I pointed out Wine's argument and you have been going off with you scarecrow ever since. The virtue signaling has been a nice touch I must say.

You can go ahead and beat up your strawman if it makes you feel better. Talk about my therapist and Joey too. I can see why you want to throw the selfawareness thing back so bad.

[ChumpDumper]

Because you aren't self-aware.:lol

You go back and forth with Joey about therapy for years on a public forum and all the sudden it's off limits for discussion? That's what PMs are for, you nutbag.

WTF is wrong with you?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Because you aren't self-aware.:lol

You go back and forth with Joey about therapy for years on a public forum and all the sudden it's off limits for discussion? That's what PMs are for, you nutbag.

WTF is wrong with you?

who said it was off grounds discussion? you are just missing the point. I explained the dynamics there before and the expectation of people weaponizing it and what that implies. that is why I said go ahead.

You like to infer things from nothing though. this is fun.

[ChumpDumper]

I was arguing with wine. I was taking issue with them using terms like genocide. You came in and clearly had no idea what the argument was about.

Of course I did.

I had my own question which I asked you directly. You assumed my viewpoint was exactly the same as Winehole's. It simply is not. You're an idiot for thinking so and will continue to be an idiot if you can't accept that not everyone on the board is the same person no matter what your conspiracy theory dictates to you.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Of course I did.

I had my own question which I asked you directly. You assumed my viewpoint was exactly the same as Winehole's. It simply is not. You're an idiot for thinking so and will continue to be an idiot if you can't accept that not everyone on the board is the same person no matter what your conspiracy theory dictates to you.

The idiocy was you didn't know my position and jumped in anyway, White Knight.

Spin away though. I want to see here this rant leads.

[ChumpDumper]

who said it was off grounds discussion? you are just missing the point. I explained the dynamics there before and the expectation of people weaponizing it and what that implies.The way you try to weaponize your pop psychology diagnoses in almost every interaction you have?

:lol WTF is wrong with you?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The way you try to weaponize your pop psychology diagnoses in almost every interaction you have?

:lol WTF is wrong with you?

What does one have to do with the other?

You really do not understand the dynamic. I expected people that were afraid of therapy and what it entails would use it against me.

How is that analogous to my pointing out how your obsessive behavior speaks to OCD?

[ChumpDumper]

What does one have to do with the other?It's the same thing.

If you didn't feel a stigma about therapy, you wouldn't whine every time we bring it up. The stigma comes from what other people think of you -- in this case it's us.

It's a dynamic that is easily understood. If it doesn't bother you, you'd simply let it go rather than doing backflips to tell us how it's not bothering you at all that we are making fun of you and your crippling self-importance.

[ChumpDumper]

I mean, you're going to try to come back and tell us that your ad hominem attacks are somehow special and better than everyone else's.

It's hilarious.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I mean, you're going to try to come back and tell us that your ad hominem attacks are somehow special and better than everyone else's.

It's hilarious.

No, I am saying that I do not devolve things down to only personal attacks. Like you have been doing repeatedly as I have pointed out in other tracking of posts.

You really suck at logic.

I am glad that you finally made a point so we could figure out you were barking up the wrong tree though. ALthough perhaps I am not sufficiently outraged for your taste.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's the same thing.

If you didn't feel a stigma about therapy, you wouldn't whine every time we bring it up. The stigma comes from what other people think of you -- in this case it's us.

It's a dynamic that is easily understood. If it doesn't bother you, you'd simply let it go rather than doing backflips to tell us how it's not bothering you at all that we are making fun of you and your crippling self-importance.

Yeah both cases make you look bad.

In the one you are afraid to go to a therapist and in the other you are extremely obsessive. You even get the sllightly confused thoing when you get worked up.

[ChumpDumper]

No, I am saying that I do not devolve things down to only personal attacks. Like you have been doing repeatedly as I have pointed out in other tracking of posts.

You really suck at logic.

I am glad that you finally made a point so we could figure out you were barking up the wrong tree though. ALthough perhaps I am not sufficiently outraged for your taste.:lmao You started out with the personal attacks instead of answering my direct question ITT. Since you could only lie about my actual position on this subject, personal attacks are all you have left. You started out sufficiently outraged to destroy any actual argument you might have had.

You do precisely what you claim to not do.

WTF is wrong with you?

[Winehole23]

Cartoonishly evil

1738588318835659259

[FrostKing]

it's not that complicated, Israel has responded to a horrific massacre with a world historical crime. kind of like the US did with the invasion of Iraq.
I think the "genocide" angle is counter-productive here. Are they asking for International powers to step back in and get involved?

[Winehole23]

I think the "genocide" angle is counter-productive here. Are they asking for International powers to step back in and get involved?Counter-productive for whom? Who is they?

You're barely making sense with the indefinite reference.

[Winehole23]

1% of Gaza has been killed in 2.5 months. 2-3% has been injured and maimed.

80% of the population has been displaced from their homes. Most of them have no homes to return to -- the buildings been utterly destroyed.

Hospitals, schools, churches, mosques, libraries, ambulances, bakeries, UN warehouses, universities, productive agricultural land and civil facilities have been bombed.

Water, food, fuel and communications have been cut off. The whole territory faces incipient famine. Civilians are not allowed to leave.

I don't think the genocide/ethnic cleansing is being overemphasized at all.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GB9PMn6WsAAgN_y?format=jpg&name=large

[Winehole23]

One percent of US population is a little over 3 million people.

2-3 percent is ~6-10 million people.

80% is ~ 250 million people.

Proportionally, that's already happened to Gaza in 2-3 months.

[Winehole23]

Comparable destruction, displacement and death in Israel outside the occupied territories would be a no-brainer genocide, why doesn't the reverse hold?

[Winehole23]

Does never again not mean never again?

[Winehole23]

Years ago, I interviewed Ehud Barak and asked him, "What would happen if you were born Palestinian?" I asked. He gave me the only honest answer he could give: "I would join a terrorist organization."

JFQWU0DtbGA

[Thread]

Does never again not mean never again?

Only to Trump making President ever again, and that thing with Annie Frankie, uh, uh, uh, yeah, The Holocaust.

[velik_m]

Japan-owned tanker attacked by drone fired from Iran in Indian Ocean

...
The tanker, which was carrying 20 Indians and one Vietnamese, had left Saudi Arabia on Tuesday and was heading to Mangalore, southwestern India, according to the U.S. Defense Department and the Indian Coast Guard.

But the vessel decided to head to Mumbai for repairs and to have the damage assessed with the assistance of the Indian Coast Guard.

The incident came amid a series of attacks on ships in the Red Sea since the start of the war between Israel and the Palestinian militant group Hamas, which began on Oct. 7.



https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023/12/508678d3f3b8-japan-owned-tanker-attacked-by-drone-fired-from-iran-in-indian-ocean.html

[FrostKing]

1% of Gaza has been killed in 2.5 months. 2-3% has been injured and maimed.

80% of the population has been displaced from their homes. Most of them have no homes to return to -- the buildings been utterly destroyed.

Hospitals, schools, churches, mosques, libraries, ambulances, bakeries, UN warehouses, universities, productive agricultural land and civil facilities have been bombed.

Water, food, fuel and communications have been cut off. The whole territory faces incipient famine. Civilians are not allowed to leave.

I don't think the genocide/ethnic cleansing is being overemphasized at all.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GB9PMn6WsAAgN_y?format=jpg&name=large
War is awful. Put Israel on the list of another military pimped to be better than USA and exposed.


The tactics might very well be genocidal but results differ:

"The U.S. Census Bureau International Database data estimates that Gaza's Palestinian population increased from only 265,800 in 1960 to 342,700 in 1970, 431,600 in 1980, 645,100 in 1990, 1,1 million in 2000, 1.5 million in 2010, and 2.1 million in 2023 and that it will rise to 2.4 million, 2.9 million in 2040"

[FrostKing]

West & Arabs should play friend but ultimately Palestinians & Israeli's need to find a way to co-exist. Or else outsiders will rejoin the party to dictate and I think Palestine will be the biggest loser.

[FrostKing]

Jews are driven & territorial but they know their happiness is directly tied to the well being of their neighbor. As I told my Jewish buddy - the West is weakening, getting poorer, fractured. There will come a time we can't financially support Israel. They need to continue creating allies in the region and stop being a Western colony in the Arab world. I believe in the Jews. I think they can be the bigger man.

[Tyronn Lue]

Jews are driven & territorial but they know their happiness is directly tied to the well being of their neighbor. As I told my Jewish buddy - the West is weakening, getting poorer, fractured. There will come a time we can't financially support Israel. They need to continue creating allies in the region and stop being a Western colony in the Arab world. I believe in the Jews. I think they can be the bigger man.
This is all you needed to say. The rest can be extrapolated.

I will say that if the balance of power resided with Palestine, Israel would cease to exist not only as a country but the Jews there would be exterminated sans mercy. The Arab countries, especially the poorer ones, historically lacked the internal wherewithal to develop at the pace of Israel. Having powerful allies, both militarily and technologically benefits the state of Israel more than can be easily stated.

[FrostKing]

This is all you needed to say. The rest can be extrapolated.

I will say that if the balance of power resided with Palestine, Israel would cease to exist not only as a country but the Jews there would be exterminated sans mercy. The Arab countries, especially the poorer ones, historically lacked the internal wherewithal to develop at the pace of Israel. Having powerful allies, both militarily and technologically benefits the state of Israel more than can be easily stated.
Much of Israeli leadership has direct ties to Europe. Netanyahu's father born in Warsaw. Kinda unfair.

Israel is on the West titty BUT they have performed great on the battlefield in relative even odds in the past. There is no reason Palestine also can't be on the West titty. We are a damn money printer.

I wouldn't say this publicly but I'm not gonna apologize for siding with a Western ally. We should discuss their behavior but they are one of us.

[FrostKing]

Polaks were in similiar position as Palestine. We decided our history is richer than the 20th Century and we took our neighbors hand offering partnership. Yes we were the ugly cousin and we did their lower class jobs but we remained focused on the future. Today we are healthy allies that prosper together.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Comparable destruction, displacement and death in Israel outside the occupied territories would be a no-brainer genocide, why doesn't the reverse hold?

Because most people do not consider a 1% decline in population to be genocide. It might help you if you looked at historical genocides and look to see what happened. So for example with the Cambodians, the Jews or the Armenians.

What is cartoonish is your daily outrage porn in a quest for genocide..

[Thread]

War is awful. Put Israel on the list of another military pimped to be better than USA and exposed.


The tactics might very well be genocidal but results differ:

"The U.S. Census Bureau International Database data estimates that Gaza's Palestinian population increased from only 265,800 in 1960 to 342,700 in 1970, 431,600 in 1980, 645,100 in 1990, 1,1 million in 2000, 1.5 million in 2010, and 2.1 million in 2023 and that it will rise to 2.4 million, 2.9 million in 2040"

It does not matter till CNN, at the direction of the State Dept. says so.

[Tyronn Lue]

Much of Israeli leadership has direct ties to Europe. Netanyahu's father born in Warsaw. Kinda unfair.

Israel is on the West titty BUT they have performed great on the battlefield in relative even odds in the past. There is no reason Palestine also can't be on the West titty. We are a damn money printer.

I wouldn't say this publicly but I'm not gonna apologize for siding with a Western ally. We should discuss their behavior but they are one of us.
The West is the great Satan, no self respecting Palestinian leader would snuggle up with a nation founded on Christianity/Deism.

It's quite obvious few if any of the Arab nations care for Israel, but they also don't like each other very much so there's not enough synergy there to collectively do anything about it.

[Thread]

The West is the great Satan, no self respecting Palestinian leader would snuggle up with a nation founded on Christianity/Deism.

It's quite obvious few if any of the Arab nations care for Israel, but they also don't like each other very much so there's not enough synergy there to collectively do anything about it.

Sure, absolutely, till you get a ganders at those $100 bills stacked on pallets in the back of a C-135 cargo plane out of D.C.,,"Hey, we didn't bring a forklift with us, that wasn't part of the deal. You got one, or, do we taxi back out, huh, chief?"

[Winehole23]

Because most people do not consider a 1% decline in population to be genocide. It might help you if you looked at historical genocides and look to see what happened. So for example with the Cambodians, the Jews or the Armenians.

What is cartoonish is your daily outrage porn in a quest for genocide..what Israel has been doing for months is outrage porn for the domestic audience. that's an observation, not a quest, unless your eyes and your heart are closed to it imho.

[Winehole23]

BTW, Fuzzy, what's your bespoke definition for genocide? The conventional ones do not require that a certain percentage of people in a territory be killed.

[Winehole23]

One percent of a population getting killed in 2-3 months is no joke.Especially when so many of them are children.

[Winehole23]

(About one-third so far, according to reported estimates, iirc.The incipient famine and disease could put that number in the shade, if Israel doesn't relent soon. Dedicated minimizers will probably categorize those as "natural deaths.")

[FuzzyLumpkins]

what Israel has been doing for months is outrage porn for the domestic audience. that's an observation, not a quest, unless your eyes and your heart are closed to it imho.

I said 'quest for genocide.' Perhaps you should open your eyes to what as written and argue the real.

As for the definition of genocide, any definition means the intent is to eliminate the life of every member of said groups.

Why do you think I have been fixating on intent?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

(About one-third so far, according to reported estimates, iirc.The incipient famine and disease could put that number in the shade, if Israel doesn't relent soon. Dedicated minimizers will probably categorize those as "natural deaths.")

And the quest, Holiday in Cambodia, continues.

It surely must be this outrage!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

One percent of a population getting killed in 2-3 months is no joke.Especially when so many of them are children.

Sure because you insist on looking at it only as 1% and not the actual scalar value of 20k. 20k in a month would be fabulous for the Russian losses in Ukraine at the rate they are going. Both are actual war zones as opposed to you fantasy comparisons.

[ChumpDumper]

What is the scalar value of 20k dead civilians in Gaza?

[Thread]

What is the scalar value of 20k dead civilians in Gaza?

https://i.ibb.co/qRvP30m/20231125-003451.jpg

[Winehole23]

Netanyahu floated something similar a few days ago.

How would this not be straight up ethnic cleansing?

1739388619024891905

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Netanyahu floated something similar a few days ago.

How would this not be straight up ethnic cleansing?

1739388619024891905

Let me know when the Arabs and Israelis start this up.

[Thread]

Let me know when the Arabs and Israelis start this up.

CNN will have the con.

[Winehole23]

Let me know when the Arabs and Israelis start this up.goes to intent, regardless

[FuzzyLumpkins]

goes to intent, regardless

of the IDF and actual commanders ordering airstrikes? hardly.

[Winehole23]

of the IDF and actual commanders ordering airstrikes? hardly.strategic intent -- forcing Gazans out of Gaza

[ChumpDumper]

strategic intent -- forcing Gazans out of Gaza

Fortunately, Fuzzy will allow you to call it ethnic cleansing. Big news.

[Winehole23]

Fortunately, Fuzzy will allow you to call it ethnic cleansing. Big news.a week ago it was just "my conspiracy theory"

[FuzzyLumpkins]

strategic intent -- forcing Gazans out of Gaza

That would be stealing their land and I get why they are extremely reluctant to leave. At the same time that is unsupported nonsense.

Even if they had wanted to do that the Arabs are having none of it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

a week ago it was just "my conspiracy theory"

I have not argued ethnic cleansing. Shall we look at the actions of the Serbian Army and contrast that with what is happening in Gaza. Youre still massively short systemic mass roundups and executions.

[Winehole23]

pointing to worse genocides/ethnic cleansings and saying this one doesn't measure up because it's of a smaller scale is more polemical than objective, imho

[FuzzyLumpkins]

pointing to worse genocides/ethnic cleansings and saying this one doesn't measure up because it's of a smaller scale is more polemical than objective, imho

No. I am pointing to the historical examples of genocide and ethnic cleansing. We can include the trail of tears, Genghis Khan, west african slave trade or whoever else you like. It still is the same.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What I do consider ethnic cleansing is Putin's policy of reeducating school children and mass deportation in occupied zones.

[Winehole23]

No. I am pointing to the historical examples of genocide and ethnic cleansing. We can include the trail of tears, Genghis Khan, west african slave trade or whoever else you like. It still is the same.this is a threadbare denial.

seems that from your point of view, ethnic cleansing and genocide can never be called out until they're accomplished, studied and academically verified facts.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

this is a threadbare denial.

seems that from your point of view, ethnic cleansing and genocide can never be called out until they're accomplished, studied and academically verified facts.

Thhreadbare? You have ZERO historical comparisons.

No I am saying that when you start looking at the defining characteristics of historical examples Gaza is missing the missing roundups, deportations, and executions. It illustrates the party's intents.

[Winehole23]

Thhreadbare? You have ZERO historical comparisons.

No I am saying that when you start looking at the defining characteristics of historical examples Gaza is missing the missing roundups, deportations, and executions. It illustrates the party's intents.all that's lacking is the deportations, imo. reports of executions and roundups are already out there. verified or not, they deserve to be taken seriously.

if you look at the legal definitions though, they're not as strict as you suggest.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

all that's lacking is the deportations, imo. reports of executions and roundups are already out there. verified or not, they deserve to be taken seriously.

Sure but that is a far cry from genocide or ethnic cleansing.

[Winehole23]

Sure but that is a far cry from genocide or ethnic cleansing.ymmv, I think we're probably on the brink right now.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

ymmv, I think we're probably on the brink right now.

Brink of what? IDF starting roundups, deportations, and mass execution?

[ChumpDumper]

I have not argued ethnic cleansing. Shall we look at the actions of the Serbian Army and contrast that with what is happening in Gaza.We shall not.

No need to let you change the subject.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

We shall not.

No need to let you change the subject.

Oh I get that you cannot stop. Thanks for the demonstration btw.

[Winehole23]

Fuzzy seems unwilling to look at the UN/Geneva definitions of genocide. Comparison/measuring up to historical genocides/ethnic cleansing isn't required, that's pure polemics.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy seems unwilling to look at the UN/Geneva definitions of genocide. Comparison/measuring up to historical genocides/ethnic cleansing isn't required, that's pure polemics.

:lol post away, Wine, I am not going to make your argument for you.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh I get that you cannot stop. Thanks for the demonstration btw.
I cannot stop stopping you from changing the subject?

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

Fuzzy seems unwilling to look at the UN/Geneva definitions of genocide. Comparison/measuring up to historical genocides/ethnic cleansing isn't required, that's pure polemics.

Yeah, it's going to be all stonewalling and ad hominems from him now.

In the end it's all he has.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yeah, it's going to be all stonewalling and ad hominems from him now.

In the end it's all he has.

Still seems mad too.

[ChumpDumper]

Still seems mad too.Still amused by your tantrums.

[Winehole23]

:lol post away, Wine, I am not going to make your argument for you.I posted this definition upstream and you ignored it.

"In whole or in part."

Note that "any," not all, of the criteria are sufficient to satisfy the definition.


Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20P unishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf

[Winehole23]

Seems to me the only condition not yet satisfied is the forceable transfer of children.

[Winehole23]

ethnic cleansing isn't a defined crime, but elements of it almost surely are


As ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law, there is no precise definition of this concept or the exact acts to be qualified as ethnic cleansing. A United Nations Commission of Experts mandated to look into violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 (https://undocs.org/S/25274) as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area."

In its final report S/1994/674 (https://undocs.org/S/1994/674), the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”

The Commission of Experts also stated that the coercive practices used to remove the civilian population can include: murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others.

The Commission of Experts added that these practices can “… constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.”
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I posted this definition upstream and you ignored it.

"In whole or in part."

Note that "any," not all, of the criteria are sufficient to satisfy the definition.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20P unishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf

acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,

nope, sorry, Wine, intent to . .. . still isn't there. than you for showing that I was correct to look at intent though.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Perhaps another opinion piece and pretend it is IDF policy.

[Winehole23]

acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,

nope, sorry, Wine, intent to . .. . still isn't there. than you for showing that I was correct to look at intent though.1% of Gaza has been killed.

2-3% has been injured and maimed.

80% have been forcibly driven from their homes.

~60% of all structures have been damaged/destroyed, with no end yet in sight.

Bombing ambulances, hospitals, churches, warehouses, bakeries, international aid facilities and urban infrastructure like water impose conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of Gaza, in part. Collective punishment for a political end, we have a common word for this in the West.

It's not hard to figure out why you can't see how the meaning of the definition applies to the case -- you're super-biased.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1% of Gaza has been killed.

2-3% has been injured and maimed.

80% have been forcibly driven from their homes.

~60% of all structures have been damaged/destroyed, with no end yet in sight.

Bombing ambulances, hospitals, churches, warehouses, bakeries, international aid facilities and urban infrastructure like water impose conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of Gaza, in part. Collective punishment for a political end, we have a common word for this in the West.

It's not hard to figure out why you can't see how the meaning of the definition applies to the case -- you're super-biased.

20k have been killed and the are still 2.5m left. There were 750k in 1999. I am not seeing the genocide.

[Winehole23]

20k have been killed and the are still 2.5m left. There were 750k in 1999. I am not seeing the genocide.what percentage of Gaza would have to be killed to satisfy your completely idiosyncratic definition of genocide?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

what percentage of Gaza would have to be killed to satisfy your completely idiosyncratic definition of genocide?

It's not about percentages.

It's about systemic intent. You even gave the definition. Did it say anything about percentages? No, it did not.

[Winehole23]

It's not about percentages.

It's about systemic intent. You even gave the definition. Did it say anything about percentages? No, it did not.Hope you didn't get whiplash, until just now you were really hung up on numbers and percentages. :lol

You don't see genocidal intent, I see words and actions wholly consistent with that intent.

At a certain level of collective punishment of noncombatants, professed intent becomes a fig leaf. I think we're already there. Legalistic parsing of legitimate war targets at this scale of human suffering mocks both humanitarian pretenses and righteous legalism.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Hope you didn't get whiplash, until just now you were really hung up on numbers and percentages. :lol

You don't see genocidal intent, I see words and actions wholly consistent with that intent.

At a certain level of collective punishment of noncombatants, professed intent becomes a fig leaf. I think we're already there. Legalistic parsing of legitimate war targets at this scale of human suffering mocks both humanitarian pretenses and righteous legalism.

No, I was hung up on how you were trying to make 20k into 20M while screaming genocide.

[CosmicCowboy]

1% of Gaza has been killed.

2-3% has been injured and maimed.

80% have been forcibly driven from their homes.

~60% of all structures have been damaged/destroyed, with no end yet in sight.

Bombing ambulances, hospitals, churches, warehouses, bakeries, international aid facilities and urban infrastructure like water impose conditions of life calculated to bring about the physical destruction of Gaza, in part. Collective punishment for a political end, we have a common word for this in the West.

It's not hard to figure out why you can't see how the meaning of the definition applies to the case -- you're super-biased.

Sounds like a war to me. Historically, the winner gets to decide what is and isn't genocide. That's why we got to hang the Nazis after we bombed the fuck out of their cities.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sounds like a war to me. Historically, the winner gets to decide what is and isn't genocide. That's why we got to hang the Nazis after we bombed the fuck out of their cities.

UK firebombing were straight out revenge but the Allies didn't create units, facilities, and infrastructure for killing multiple races and ethnicities. Weell, the Soviets did but their systemic genocides don't jive either.

[CosmicCowboy]

Fortunately we had "smart" bombs that only killed uniformed soldiers

[ChumpDumper]

Fortunately we had "smart" bombs that only killed uniformed soldiers

Makes one wonder why they still use the 1 ton dumb ones today in a place like Gaza.

[CosmicCowboy]

Makes one wonder why they still use the 1 ton dumb ones today in a place like Gaza.

Guess it's because hamas doesn't wear uniforms.

[ChumpDumper]

Guess it's because hamas doesn't wear uniforms.So they could just bomb anyone anywhere in Gaza with dumb 2000 pounders and be completely justified because uniforms?

[CosmicCowboy]

So they could just bomb anyone anywhere in Gaza with dumb 2000 pounders and be completely justified because uniforms?

Pretty good odds they will hit one.

[ChumpDumper]

Pretty good odds they will hit one.Justified according to you.

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL you are Sooooo easy to troll.

[ChumpDumper]

LOL you are Sooooo easy to troll.

So not justified?

[CosmicCowboy]

Meh. Looks like war to me. Israel didn't start it but it looks like they plan to finish it.

[ChumpDumper]

Meh. Looks like war to me. Israel didn't start it but it looks like they plan to finish it.

So justified.

[Winehole23]

So justified."that's just the way it is, man. my complete lack of morals and humanity is just a reflection of the world."

[Winehole23]

Meh. Looks like war to me. Israel didn't start it but it looks like they plan to finish it.what happened in 1948?

[Winehole23]

"Gaza is the enemy"

"The woman there is an enemy, the baby there is an enemy and the first grader is an enemy"

Eliminationist rhetoric like this is hardly uncommon right now.

1737462424595255612

[FuzzyLumpkins]

"Gaza is the enemy"

"The woman there is an enemy, the baby there is an enemy and the first grader is an enemy"

Eliminationist rhetoric like this is hardly uncommon right now.

1737462424595255612

Guilt by association. If a former one of them feels like that it must be official policy.

[Winehole23]

Guilt by association. If a former one of them feels like that it must be official policy.Israel's tactics seem to be consistent with what the man is saying, and the sentiment expressed is far from uncommon among his countrymen

The IDF itself recently said "there are no innocents in Gaza "

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Israel's tactics seem to be consistent with what the man is saying, and the sentiment expressed is far from uncommon among his countrymen

The IDF itself recently said "there are no innocents in Gaza "

You are talking about a nation that is a plurality on various levels and you are claiming that it is the state's intent to murder every single Palestinian. Typically tremendous claims require tremendous proof but not here.

[CosmicCowboy]

"that's just the way it is, man. my complete lack of morals and humanity is just a reflection of the world."

I dont see your crocodile tears changing the world.

[Winehole23]

I dont see your crocodile tears changing the world.I don't see your cheap cynicism changing anything either.

How chickenshit. It doesn't cost anything to speak up for what you believe in on an anonymous forum.

It's certainly no virtue to bow to the status quo and make that your idol.

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't see your cheap cynicism changing anything either.

How chickenshit. It doesn't cost anything to speak up for what you believe in on an anonymous forum.

It's certainly no virtue to bow to the status quo and make that your idol.

Whine

Life is what it is Your crocodile tears won't change that.

[Winehole23]

Whine

Life is what it is Your crocodile tears won't change that.Never said it would.

Lol @ your supine acceptance of "life as it is." Like you even know what that is, and as if what people say and do has nothing to do with the only constant: change.

[Winehole23]

How do things change, btw? If there's only "life as it is."

[Winehole23]

You are talking about a nation that is a plurality on various levels and you are claiming that it is the state's intent to murder every single Palestinian. Typically tremendous claims require tremendous proof but not here.No.

According to the Geneva definition, "in whole or in part."

[Winehole23]

Lol pivoting away from intent to proportion.

You can't make up your own mind on this, apparently.

[Winehole23]

Hey CC, if someone chased your grandfather and his neighbors off their land, would you still say "that's life, the victors make the rules and write the story"?

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't see your cheap cynicism changing anything either.

How chickenshit. It doesn't cost anything to speak up for what you believe in on an anonymous forum.

It's certainly no virtue to bow to the status quo and make that your idol.

Whine

Life is what it is Your crocodile tears won't change that.

[CosmicCowboy]

Whinehole loves him some Hamas!

[Winehole23]

Whine

Life is what it is Your crocodile tears won't change that.https://media1.tenor.com/m/us7fggHPuXcAAAAC/tilt.gif

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Lol pivoting away from intent to proportion.

You can't make up your own mind on this, apparently.

Did I not write intent in that sentence too?

I stand by my point about tremendous claims requiring tremendous proof.

At the end of the day this is much ado over nothing. Right off the bat the Russians and Chinese will never allow what the Israeli's are doing be defined as such. Then of course when you look at what US forces were doing in Vietnam, Basra, Fallujah, and elsewhere you're opening that door too so we won't either. Israel has a clear cause for war.

Let's see if you continue to do the outrage thing when the conflict moves off the news cycle.

[Winehole23]

Whinehole loves him some Hamas!lol, no. there doesn't have to be a good guy.

[CosmicCowboy]

Whinehole is really upset about this. Is it because the Jews are winning?

[Winehole23]

Did I not write intent in that sentence too?

I stand by my point about tremendous claims requiring tremendous proof.

At the end of the day this is much ado over nothing. :wow Right off the bat the Russians and Chinese will never allow what the Israeli's are doing be defined as such. Then of course when you look at what US forces were doing in Vietnam, Basra, Fallujah, and elsewhere you're opening that door too so we won't either. Israel has a clear cause for war.

Let's see if you continue to do the outrage thing when the conflict moves off the news cycle.A clear cause for war doesn't authorize disproportionate/unlimited punishment of civilians.

I'd be cool with the US facing war crimes process for what we did in Iraq, even if Russia and China objected. I don't bow to their prerogatives.

And obviously, you're not familiar with my MO here. I raise a bunch of issues not currently at the top of the news cycle, on the reg.

[Winehole23]

Whinehole is really upset about this. Is it because the Jews are winning?Israel isn't "the Jews" and no, I don't think Israel is winning.

I think Israel and the US are making things more dangerous for Jews everywhere, especially in Israel.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

A clear cause for war doesn't authorize disproportionate/unlimited punishment of civilians.

I'd be cool with the US facing war crimes process for what did in Iraq, even if Russia and China objected. I don't bow to their prerogatives.

And obviously, you're not familiar with my MO here. I raise a bunch of issues not currently at the top of the news cycle.

Hey, if you hold up bully for you. That is when they will need the help the most.

And despite your stand it will still never happen.

[Winehole23]

I also think the complete destruction of Hamas is a pipe dream. Israel won't be able to withstand the political cost in war deaths -- and hostages -- required to get it done, even if they could do it.

You underestimate the value Jews put on life. Unlike Christians, all the religious laws can be suspended to save it. Political slaughter will have to yield at some point. Too many Israelis will have died.

[Winehole23]

Hey, if you hold up bully for you. That is when they will need the help the most.

And despite your stand it will still never happen.What will never happen? You've got this thing with indefinite reference/elliptical construction that makes you hard to understand.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What will never happen? You've got this thing with indefinite reference/elliptical construction that makes you hard to understand.

The UN, ICC, or similar institution will never label this conflict as a genocide, ethnic cleansing or the like.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I also think the complete destruction of Hamas is a pipe dream. Israel won't be able to withstand the political cost in war deaths -- and hostages -- required to get it done, even if they could do it.

You underestimate the value Jews put on life. Unlike Christians, all the religious laws can be suspended to save it. Political slaughter will have to yield at some point. Too many Israelis will have died.

I don't know enough about the situation to make a claim one way or the other as to Hamas' long term viability. Most of their facilities, infrastructure, and their leadership will be destroyed.

I just hope that there is room for a better polity for the Palestinians in the future.

[Winehole23]

Israel isn't "the Jews" and no, I don't think Israel is winning.

I think Israel and the US are making things more dangerous for Jews everywhere, especially in Israel.Netanyahu's cynical and disastrous strategy leading to this conflict and the domestic cost won't be lost in the lust for revenge or paid for purely in Palestinian lives. He's a goner.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Netanyahu's cynical and disastrous strategy leading to this conflict and the domestic cost won't be lost in the lust for revenge or paid for purely in Palestinian lives. He's a goner.

His opposition is not exactly pro Palestinian.

[Winehole23]

I don't know enough about the situation to make a claim one way or the other as to Hamas' long term viability. Most of their facilities, infrastructure, and their leadership will be destroyed.

I just hope that there is room for a better polity for the Palestinians in the future.Killing Gazans indiscriminately, driving them out of their homes and starving them does not reliably lead to the polity you describe. Quite the opposite, I think.

[Winehole23]

His opposition is not exactly pro Palestinian.I didn't suggest that. Netanyahu, right now, isn't so popular at home. He screwed up. The Hamas massacre on Oct 7 will be blamed on him, not totally unjustly.

He was too focused on the West Bank, coddling his far right settler constituency.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Killing Gazans indiscriminately, driving them out of their homes and starving them does not reliably lead to the polity you describe. Quite the opposite, I think.

The Palestinians were never going to consent to Israeli governance anyway.

Hopefully, the Kuwaiti, UAE, Qatari, or similar Sunni cultural brethren can help there. Despite the conflict the Israelis and the Arab League continue to work together. Given the reality of Iranian foreign policy it makes sense to do so when that is the alternative.

[Winehole23]

The UN, ICC, or similar institution will never label this conflict as a genocide, ethnic cleansing or the like.oh sure, the US will protect its beachhead in Israel and veto any motion adverse to Israel, no doubt about it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

oh sure, the US will protect its beachhead in Israel and veto any motion adverse to Israel, no doubt about it.

As will Russia, China, and Britain.

[Winehole23]

The Palestinians were never going to consent to Israeli governance anyway.

Hopefully, the Kuwaiti, UAE, Qatari, or similar Sunni cultural brethren can help there. Despite the conflict the Israelis and the Arab League continue to work together. Given the reality of Iranian foreign policy it makes sense to do so when that is the alternative.lol

None of those countries want another Arab Spring inside their own borders. That's not going to happen either. None of them will accept forced resettlement at the hands of Israel. Too risky.

[Winehole23]

As will Russia, China, and Britain.The UN is a conversation piece, we agree on that. Israel just rescinded their automatic visas, and besides, has been killing their agents wantonly. We're up to like 140 UN deaths, In think -- a record for any conflict.

[Winehole23]

The UN, ICC, or similar institution will never label this conflict as a genocide, ethnic cleansing or the like.supposing that never happens (likely), do you think for yourself that no genocide or ethnic cleansing has happened?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

supposing that never happens (likely), do you think for yourself that no genocide or ethnic cleansing has happened?

Given the evidence at this point and my recent statements I would hope that is obvious. Much like CC I see it as urban warfare.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

lol

None of those countries want another Arab Spring inside their own borders. That's not going to happen either. None of them will accept forced resettlement at the hands of Israel. Too risky.

That is why I intentionally said the smaller countries. I agree it is unlikely Egypt, Jordan, or the like is a good match. At the end of the day, there is going to need to be a lot of need for leadership, expertise, and advice that is both something the Palestinians can accept and is in their best interest.

If not then they are fucked genocide or not.

[Winehole23]

Given the evidence at this point and my recent statements I would hope that is obvious. Much like CC I see it as urban warfare.well, when the facts on the ground are studied and verified, we'll see who's still singing the same tune.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

well, when the facts on the ground are studied and verified, we'll see who's still singing the same tune.

Not to create a case for systemic intent with what you have.

[Winehole23]

That is why I intentionally said the smaller countries. I agree it is unlikely Egypt, Jordan, or the like is a good match. At the end of the day, there is going to need to be a lot of need for leadership, expertise, and advice that the Palestinians is both something they can accept and is in their best interest.

If not then they are fucked genocide or not.You accept genocide as an acceptable outcome.

At least that is honest.

:tu

[Winehole23]

Not to create a case for systemic intent with what you have.Bullshit talks, actions walk.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You accept genocide as an acceptable outcome.

At least that is honest.

:tu

What is it you say? You're doing it again. Jumping to conclusions without understanding what is being said.

Sorry to disappoint you but I do not approve of genocide. I am saying that whether or not it is labeled as a genocide the Palestinians will continue to live in the iron age being run by people who use them at their own expense. To me that means they are fucked unless that leadership, expertise, and advice comes from somewhere.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bullshit talks, actions walk.

Exactly. Do better than innuendo.

There are few more tremendous claims than genocide. Your proof if it comes will not be a 1000 cuts. It will be one tremendous one.

[Winehole23]

Exactly. Do better than innuendo.

There are few more tremendous claims than genocide. Your proof if it comes will not be a 1000 cuts. It will be one tremendous one."in whole or in part"

Israel's actions and words already comport with ethnic cleansing and genocide. With total US support so far.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

"in whole or in part"

Israel's actions and words already comport with ethnic cleansing and genocide. With total US support so far.

Show me or let me listen to the order. Let me see a transcript from a cabinet meeting. Let's see the systemic intent.

All I see is bullshit.

[Winehole23]

I also think the complete destruction of Hamas is a pipe dream. Israel won't be able to withstand the political cost in war deaths -- and hostages -- required to get it done, even if they could do it.

You underestimate the value Jews put on life. Unlike Christians, all the religious laws can be suspended to save it. Political slaughter will have to yield at some point. Too many Israelis will have died.And Israel will be less safe. Not because of the Hamas massacre, but because of Israel's barbaric reaction to it.

[Winehole23]

Show me or let me listen to the order. Let me see a transcript from a cabinet meeting. Let's see the systemic intent.

All I see is bullshit.All I see is the indiscriminate killing and wanton immiseration of civilians. I don't think we need the minutes of cabinet meetings to figure out what's going on at ground level. Death, suffering, starvation and disease will tell that tale.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And Israel will be less safe. Not because of the Hamas massacre, but because of Israel's barbaric reaction to it.

Okay, if you say so. I would have to know more specifics about Palestinian people in particular to make such a claim and have a picture of the aftermath.

[Winehole23]

Okay, if you say so. I would have to know more specifics about Palestinian people in particular to make such a claim and have a picture of the aftermath.it's bad enough already, tbh

[FuzzyLumpkins]

All I see is the indiscriminate killing and wanton immiseration of civilians. I don't think we need the minutes of cabinet meetings to figure out what's going on at ground level. Death, suffering, starvation and disease will tell that tale.

Steady stream of outrage porn I get it. Worse shit is going on in central africa. No one gives a shit.

[Winehole23]

Steady stream of outrage porn I get it. Worse shit is going on in central africa. No one gives a shit.Sure, I've been meaning to post about that too. There are lots of things that matter that spoiled Americans don't give a shit about, but that doesn't mean they don't matter.

Nor does that mean that Gaza doesn't matter because the scale of wholesale slaughter is smaller.

I'm sure it's all worth it for our cheap rechargeable batteries, that's just the way life is, right?

[Winehole23]

When people are being slaughtered for political or economic expediency it isn't just outrage porn (for those who enjoy it) it's a crime against real people.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sure, I've been meaning to post about that too. There are lots of things that matter that spoiled Americans don't give a shit about, but that doesn't mean they don't matter.

Nor does that mean that Gaza doesn't matter because the scale of wholesale slaughter is smaller.

I'm sure it's all worth it for our cheap rechargeable batteries, that's just the way life is, right?

Well the South Sudanese are being rounded up and killed en masse for months in a process that I think can easily be described as genocide. Can you understand how I might find your approach disproportional and led?

[Winehole23]

Well the South Sudanese are being rounded up and killed en masse for months in a process that I think can easily be described as genocide. Can you understand how I might find your approach disproportional and led?Nope.

UN and Geneva definitions don't require that.

What standard are you using? Are all genocides required to be the same in method and scale? Surely, if it were desired to devise rules against genocide, it would be most inefficient to stipulate particular methods or quantitative thresholds of killing.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Nope.

UN and Geneva definitions don't require that.

What standard are you using? Are all genocides required to be the same in method and scale?

I am saying that there is evidence of systemic intent when the warlord orders villages butchered, systemic rape, and enslavement. Child soldier fun. The scenes from there are outrageous too.

Your problem is that Israel has a justification for war and there exists a concept known as collateral damage. The scenes remain outrageous either way.

[Winehole23]

I am saying that there is evidence of systemic intent when the warlord orders villages butchered, systemic rape, and enslavement. Child soldier fun. The scenes from there are outrageous too.

Your problem is that Israel has a justification for war and there exists a concept known as collateral damage. The scenes remain outrageous either way.Ah, collateral damage. Justified purely by a just cause of war.

So then, given a just cause, is there any level of destruction and killing -- in your opinion -- that isn't justified?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ah, collateral damage. Justified purely by a just cause of war.

So then, given a just cause, is there any level of destruction and killing -- in your opinion -- that isn't justified?

Sure but that argument puts the burden of proof on you. And again if you want to make a tremendous claim then you need to provide tremendous proof.

[Winehole23]

All the war targets are presumptively justified, without independent verification? That seems a big bias for one side, to me.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

All the war targets are presumptively justified, without independent verification? That seems a big bias for one side, to me.

There is a paper and recording trail. It will be nice when Netanyahu is gone so the Democrats can forgive Israel for him being such an underhanded dick to Obama.

[Winehole23]

Wut? Obama?

It doesn't seem that Biden is punishing Israel for that.

Israel itself will punish Netanyahu for being a crook and failing to protect the country from Hamas

:lol

[Winehole23]

lol assuming the veracity of evidence not disclosed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

lol assuming the veracity of evidence not disclosed.

Such is life but that doesn't mean it's okay to make shit up because you are outraged.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wut? Obama?

It doesn't seem that Biden is punishing Israel for that.

Israel itself will punish Netanyahu for being a crook and failing to protect the country from Hamas

:lol

Good thing I don't look at the democratic party and its constituents to just be Biden.

[HemisfairArena]

All the war targets are presumptively justified, without independent verification? That seems a big bias for one side, to me.

Independent verification?,,,,lmao,,,,,Its war, dawg,,,,theres no civility in war,,,you know that. You seem to be upset just because your side is the underdog and getting smacked around,,,,,Israel owes you jackshit.

[Winehole23]

Such is life but that doesn't mean it's okay to make shit up because you are outraged.Events on the ground will put the lie to sterile legalisms and cabinet minutes, though, to be honest, those minutes could turn out to be damning if they're ever disclosed. There's no guarantee that they will be, tbh. Especially if they're derogatory to Israel.

[Winehole23]

Good thing I don't look at the democratic party and its constituents to just be Biden.So who's punishing Israel for being mean to Obama? This wasn't even on my radar, I'm not a fan of Obama.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So who's punishing Israel for being mean to Obama? This wasn't even on my radar, I'm not a fan of Obama.

You are aware of what Netanyahu did to Obama when he invited him and the Palestinians to a Peace conference embarrassing the shit out of him right?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Events on the ground will put the lie to sterile legalisms and cabinet minutes, though, to be honest, those minutes could turn out to be damning if they're ever disclosed. There's no guarantee that they will be, tbh. Especially if they're derogatory to Israel.

In your on head and never in any meaningful institution. full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

[Winehole23]

You do know Israel censors the news, don't you?

[Winehole23]

In your on head and never in any meaningful institution. full of sound and fury signifying nothing.this is a meaningless reply, tbh

[FuzzyLumpkins]

this is a meaningless reply, tbh

it calls it's own.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You do know Israel censors the news, don't you?

So?

[Winehole23]

You are aware of what Netanyahu did to Obama when he invited him and the Palestinians to a Peace conference embarrassing the shit out of him right?I heard about that. I'm wasn't surprised, but I don't have a grudge about that. Netanyahu's whole deal is avoiding diplomacy and political solutions, Obama never had a chance. Netanyahu is lucky he has Biden now.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I heard about that. I'm wasn't surprised, but I don't have a grudge about that. Netanyahu's whole deal is avoiding diplomacy and political solutions, Obama never had a chance. Netanyahu is lucky he has Biden now.

I can see why you might think that but I was not pointing fingers at anyone in particular.

[Winehole23]

So?so, the cabinet minutes you're relying on for intent will probably never be made public.

[Winehole23]

I can see why you might think that but I was not pointing fingers at anyone in particular.Just more handwaving. Gotcha.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

so, the cabinet minutes you're relying on for intent will probably never be made public.

I would hope that if there was a general somewhere trying to maximize Palestinian casualties or similar genocidal action that someone in that chain of command and execution would come forward like we did with Abu Gharib. But again, that isn't happening.

[Winehole23]

it calls it's own.Mass civilian death, displacement and suffering aren't meaningless just because you say so. Jews certainly don't think so about their own history, despite the fact that everything done to them during the Shoah was according to law.

[Winehole23]

I would hope that if there was a general somewhere trying to maximize Palestinian casualties or similar genocidal action that someone in that chain of command and execution would come forward like we did with Abu Gharib. But again, that isn't happening.so, you just assume it to be lawful and just without proof of any kind.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

so, you just assume it to be lawful and just without proof of any kind.

Innocence until proven guilty. Crazy right?

[Winehole23]

Sure but that argument puts the burden of proof on you. And again if you want to make a tremendous claim then you need to provide tremendous proof.The proof is already on the ground. Israel is wrecking Gaza indiscriminately, and punishing civilians collectively. Has been for about 15 years beforehand, tbh.

[Winehole23]

Innocence until proven guilty. Crazy right?in a court of law. war isn't a court of law.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

the proof is already on the ground. Israel is wrecking Gaza indiscriminately, and punishing civilians collectively. Has been for about 15 years beforehand, tbh.

No desire to argue this same train again. I have had enough repeat today.

[Winehole23]

No desire to argue this same train again. I have had enough repeat today.I see your white flag. You give up.

:tu

[FuzzyLumpkins]

in a court of law. war isn't a court of law.

I thought we were arguing what was or was not genocide. The higher the crime the higher the standard of proof for real conviction.

[Winehole23]

I thought we were arguing what was or was not genocide. The higher the crime the higher the standard of proof for real conviction.we're already there. your bias blinds you.

[Winehole23]

I thought you were done. Are you rallying how?

:lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I see your white flag. You give up.

:tu

You too, eh?

[Winehole23]

You too, eh?no, I'm cool to continue, if you want to keep digging the hole you're in.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

no, I'm cool to continue, if you want to keep digging the hole you're in.

If you want to feel you are winning something over on me that is okay if a bit scientology style creepy.

[Winehole23]

If you want to feel you are winning something over on me that is okay if a bit scientology style creepy.I don't think I'm winning, but you're definitely losing. Your sauce is notably weak.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't think I'm winning, but you're definitely losing. Your sauce is notably weak.

:lol I got what I wanted nonetheless.

[Winehole23]

You have a gift for cant and pseudologic. I think you should keep using it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You have a gift for cant and pseudologic. I think you should keep using it.

If you say so. I find demonstration so much more compelling.

[Winehole23]

If you say so. I find demonstration so much more compelling.Yeah, well I'm relying on empirical facts on the ground, while you're relying on official records that may never be disclosed.

Who's got their head in the clouds here?

[Winehole23]

Israel has fucking wrecked Gaza and wrecked it so badly more than half the people there have no homes to return to.

The entire population of the whole territory is being deprived of food, water, fuel, electricity, communication, roads and healthcare, while being bombed indiscriminately. Mass famine and disease are imminent, 80% of the population lacks adequate shelter in winter and are crowded together in unsanitary conditions. 1% of the entire population has been killed in less than three months, and 2-3% have been maimed and injured. Many of those have suffered amputations -- without anaesthesia -- because the IDF has wrecked all but 9 out of 45 hospitals.

Agricultural lands have been wasted, international aid has been throttled at the border, and bombed and killed within the border. No one is allowed to leave. Israeli hostages waving white flags and speaking Hebrew have been shot by IDF.

Some of the oldest churches in Christendom have been bombed, and their parishioners killed by snipers. Whole bloodlines going back centuries have been eliminated. Surviving children have no living relatives.

Random captives have been tortured.

Universities, libraries, mosques and municipal archives bombed.

All this is very partial, what's journalistically and officially verified so far is just a fraction of what's already happened.

[Winehole23]

What Hamas did on Oct. 7th was horrific and abominable without qualification, but I don't see how that justifies collective punishment like this.

I know a lot of y'all are cruel and unsympathetic motherfuckers, so ymmv.

[Thread]

What Hamas did on Oct. 7th was horrific and abominable without qualification, but I don't see how that justifies collective punishment like this.

I know a lot of y'all are cruel and unsympathetic motherfuckers, so ymmv.

WHATEVER hurts that fuck in the White House is Jake with me.

[Winehole23]

Armenian Christians in Jerusalem aren't Hamas.

Ditto the West Bank. State aided settler violence (http://https://x.com/ArmenianQuarter/status/1740341564847874551?s=20) is out of control.

1740341564847874551

[Winehole23]

Hey CC, if someone chased your grandfather and his neighbors off their land, would you still say "that's life, the victors make the rules and write the story"?

[Thread]

WHATEVER hurts that fuck in the White House is Jake with me.

[Winehole23]

I see you lurking, CC. Cat got your tongue?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

https://i.giphy.com/lkO1VbjLZIlEI.webp

[Thread]

WHATEVER hurts that fuck in the White House is Jake with me.

[Winehole23]

"The families of hostages are making us look bad, turn off the cameras and strike their remarks."

1740004235209535640

[Thread]

"The families of hostages are making us look bad, turn off the cameras and strike their remarks."

1740004235209535640

You can turn 'em off & strike 'em till the cows come home, Winester...you're never going to get to the Jews here to hurt 'em. No way. Ham is going to eat the whole thing...and that's straight from the State Dept., thru CNN.

[Winehole23]

There will be hell to pay in Israel when the shooting stops.

[Winehole23]

I see you lurking, CC. Cat got your tongue?CC ducked again

[Thread]

There will be hell to pay in Israel when the shooting stops.

Please.

[Winehole23]

"The families of hostages are making us look bad, turn off the cameras and strike their remarks."

1740004235209535640Official records that may never be disclosed. This won't end well for the war cabinet, the survivors will never shut up.

[Winehole23]

Might not be long before they're denounced as traitors, and "objectively pro-Hamas"

[Thread]

Official records that may never be disclosed. This won't end well for the war cabinet, the survivors will never shut up.

...that's part & parcel with the Jews. If it ain't this, it's The Holocaust.

[FrostKing]

Might not be long before they're denounced as traitors, and "objectively pro-Hamas"
I may not fully agree but respect you carrying the Palestine flag in this thread.

In my circle I have both perspectives/arguments. Although I have bias on certain issues, there is nothing I am 100% on in my life time. Whether it be the the Cold War, 9/11, Migrant Crisis, Covid etc. The good & bad of the West is we can ponder & debate every angle.

2023 made me more Pro-West than I might ever been. I'm returning to Europe. We are flawed, we are getting poorer, dumber but I will try my best to prolong - the West is Best. We have experienced greater self destruction and always rebounded. Let's do it again.

[Thread]

I may not fully agree but respect you carrying the Palestine flag in this thread.



I fully agree with the piss pot...&...It's been a boon indeed.

[FrostKing]

Overall I think we should congratulate the Arabs on staying neutral.

The West was approaching an Era of taking a step back from foreign affairs and now Russia & Gaza happens.

I'd like to see the West go fortress. Close some military bases, reinforce borders, cut down humanitarian aid & heavy vetting on tourism.

We can't nor should we change the World. And some of our attempts only fuel counter measures. But we can control who steps on our soil.

[FrostKing]

Strong border & residency standards eliminates the need for "hateful rhetoric". We can better support our migrant community.

[Thread]

Overall I think we should congratulate the Arabs on staying neutral.

The West was approaching an Era of taking a step back from foreign affairs and now Russia & Gaza happens.

I'd like to see the West go fortress. Close some military bases, reinforce borders, cut down humanitarian aid & heavy vetting on tourism.

We can't nor should we change the World. And some of our attempts only fuel counter measures. But we can control who steps on our soil.

You will grow old, gray, and you will die before that ever happens.

[Thread]

Strong border & residency standards eliminates the need for "hateful rhetoric". We can better support our migrant community.

(They) have it precisely where they want it right now. It ain't goin' nowhere; they're planting and harvesting votes into the 95% Democrat block.