Fischer: Spurs Repeatedly Mentioned By NBA Figures As Potential Home For Young

[mo7888]

It wouldn’t be a cheep package, but the Spurs dont need to throw everything at them. Show me what other team is making the mega offer first. Spurs will need to throw Keldon into the deal, and he has value in his own right too.

+1

[exstatic]

The 2025 Hawks pick is only worth getting from Atlanta is if the Spurs are a good team next season themselves. Otherwise, they’ll have a shot at the top pick anyway so what’s the point? If the Spurs plan to or are expected to be bad again next season, are they really just going to add two more top talented players and think that will catapult them into relevancy? At some point, they have to make a play towards a Gobert or Mitchell type move to make it to the next level. Folks who think the Spurs just keep everyone they have because it’s the Spurs’ Way need a rude awakening. I thought they learned that it’s not really like that when homegrown players like Lonnie, White, DJ were given away.

Wow, that was some serious mental gymnastics. It would just be terrible to have two top picks and two shots at Cooper Flagg. Wait, no it wouldn’t.

[Dejounte]

Wow, that was some serious mental gymnastics. It would just be terrible to have two top picks and two shots at Cooper Flagg. Wait, no it wouldn’t.

It’s not terrible to have one shot at Cooper Flagg and already have a future HOFer on your team in Trae Young. When you have the real context, it’s not mental gymnastics at all.

[Chinook]

Or being realistic.

It's not about what you think is the likely outcome. It's about how front offices react in these situations. We have seen repeatedly that a team that leverages its future before deciding to sell off assets does not make a priority to reacquire its picks. The only example I can remember of a team doing that is Hinkie getting Philly's protected pick back from Orlando in the Saric/Payton trade. That's it. Even right now, we see Houston trading for Brooklyn's future after selling theirs to OKC and Brooklyn taking Phoenix's rather than trying to get theirs back from Houston. As I said, for better or worse, teams don't do what posters feel confident the Hawks will do.

Most front offices can't survive tanking. So if they have something that's already making them watchable, they aren't necessarily going to be able trade that away with the explicit plan to be awful for three years. They will have to spin it as a way to improve. With Young eligible for the DPE this summer, the Hawks are not in a position where they risk losing Trae for nothing. They have a lot of options open and different trades they can make to rework their roster. Just as the team might trade Murray and keep Young, they might do the opposite under the belief that they can use the greater haul to make an immediate change to their roster. Without knowing what packages are available and how the front office views either player, we don't know what plan they think is the most viable.


I think you're over analyzing and thinking this by trying to idealize it. It's really not that complicated.

I think it's very much the opposite. You and other posters are trying to avoid reality by abstracting it and setting yourself up to be disappointed. A lot of the situation about the Spurs trading for Young is built off theory-crafting and second- or third-order speculation. We don't know if the Spurs have any interest in making a move. We don't know if the Hawks plan to trade either guard at this point, let alone which one they'd try to trade. We don't know what direction they want to go and thus what priority they'd be looking for in packages. We don't know what other teams are willing to offer. We don't know what other players would be on the market. They could get Young, yes. Or they might be beat out by another team. Or they might not even want him. Hell, no one's even considered that Young trade chatter boosts Murray's trade value because it gives the impression that Atlanta might be willing to build around him instead. That would be very similar to what the Spurs did with Parker when they were trying to trade Hill.

No, I'm not saying don't speculate. That's basically what this board is for. I am saying the pieces are probably not fitting together as smoothly as some might think, and if they think that there's probably some wishful thinking taking the place of evidence.

[duncan2150]

Lot of good stuff in this thread, imo the first domino is if the spurs will draft topic. If they can that will probably end the young to spurs rumors.

we'll see

[Chinook]

It’s not terrible to have one shot at Cooper Flagg and already have a future HOFer on your team in Trae Young. When you have the real context, it’s not mental gymnastics at all.

If the Spurs trade for Young and still have a shot at winning the lottery next year, I think some people's faces would slide off their skulls.

[Chinook]

Lot of good stuff in this thread, imo the first domino is if the spurs will draft topic. If they can that will probably end the young to spurs rumors.

we'll see

Eh, I think there's a decent chance the movement will start before the draft. Unless the Spurs win the lottery they probably won't know who they'll draft by the time there are substantial rumors about how the Hawks roster is going to get.

[Dejounte]

If the Spurs trade for Young and still have a shot at winning the lottery next year, I think some people's faces would slide off their skulls.

Obviously any scenario should be considered, but the one you mentioned is unlikely. The Spurs’ pick is likely to be out of the lottery should that trade be made, which means it’s a win-win for the Spurs.

[TD 21]

It's not about what you think is the likely outcome. It's about how front offices react in these situations. We have seen repeatedly that a team that leverages its future before deciding to sell off assets does not make a priority to reacquire its picks. The only example I can remember of a team doing that is Hinkie getting Philly's protected pick back from Orlando in the Saric/Payton trade. That's it. Even right now, we see Houston trading for Brooklyn's future after selling theirs to OKC and Brooklyn taking Phoenix's rather than trying to get theirs back from Houston. As I said, for better or worse, teams don't do what posters feel confident the Hawks will do.

Most front offices can't survive tanking. So if they have something that's already making them watchable, they aren't necessarily going to be able trade that away with the explicit plan to be awful for three years. They will have to spin it as a way to improve. With Young eligible for the DPE this summer, the Hawks are not in a position where they risk losing Trae for nothing. They have a lot of options open and different trades they can make to rework their roster. Just as the team might trade Murray and keep Young, they might do the opposite under the belief that they can use the greater haul to make an immediate change to their roster. Without knowing what packages are available and how the front office views either player, we don't know what plan they think is the most viable.



I think it's very much the opposite. You and other posters are trying to avoid reality by abstracting it and setting yourself up to be disappointed. A lot of the situation about the Spurs trading for Young is built off theory-crafting and second- or third-order speculation. We don't know if the Spurs have any interest in making a move. We don't know if the Hawks plan to trade either guard at this point, let alone which one they'd try to trade. We don't know what direction they want to go and thus what priority they'd be looking for in packages. We don't know what other teams are willing to offer. We don't know what other players would be on the market. They could get Young, yes. Or they might be beat out by another team. Or they might not even want him. Hell, no one's even considered that Young trade chatter boosts Murray's trade value because it gives the impression that Atlanta might be willing to build around him instead. That would be very similar to what the Spurs did with Parker when they were trying to trade Hill.

No, I'm not saying don't speculate. That's basically what this board is for. I am saying the pieces are probably not fitting together as smoothly as some might think, and if they think that there's probably some wishful thinking taking the place of evidence.

I'm going to go out on a limb and presume they're not delusional. Having your own picks is most valuable because you control your situation, which is the best you can ever hope to do. This would be probably unprecedented, but it makes sense all the same.

Snyder was/is too in-demand to be involved in a full re-build, so I agree they won't intentionally go that route initially. But that doesn't mean it won't happen organically or that they have a realistic path to being good either.

They can intend to retain Young for now, but he could also request a trade and we know how that ends.

I'm speaking to the hypothetical scenario where the Hawks are open to it and the Spurs are interested. Of course they may not be, but in the event they are, I see this as far more straightforward (in terms of why the Spurs should pursuit it) than you and others seem to think.

Everything doesn't have to be so convoluted and drawn out.

[Dejounte]

I'm going to go out on a limb and presume they're not delusional. Having your own picks is most valuable because you control your situation, which is the best you can ever hope to do. This would be probably unprecedented, but it makes sense all the same.

Snyder was/is too in-demand to be involved in a full re-build, so I agree they won't intentionally go that route initially. But that doesn't mean it won't happen organically or that they have a realistic path to being good either.

They can intend to retain Young for now, but he could also request a trade and we know how that ends.

I'm speaking to the hypothetical scenario where the Hawks are open to it and the Spurs are interested. Of course they may not be, but in the event they are, I see this as far more straightforward than you and others seem to think.

Everything doesn't have to be so convoluted and drawn out.

It’s funny. The “mental gymnastics” line is ironic from these people. A player that doesn’t meet their vision of a perfect Spur by not matching all criteria and they make up all these weird scenarios just to justify their distaste.

[BatManu20]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGlIrmjX0AAM-tI?format=jpg&name=900x900

[gambit1990]

https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/12/aVOSkIC.gif

[Chinook]

I'm going to go out on a limb and presume they're not delusional. Having your own picks is most valuable because you control your situation, which is the best you can ever hope to do. This would be probably unprecedented, but it makes sense all the same.

Again, we aren't talking about what you think makes sense. We're talking about what incentives front offices respond to, and those pretty clearly show teams do not get their picks back trades. This might be the first time that happens, but if it does, it'll go against the trend. It's fine to believe that might happen, but it's shaky to assume it's going to happen when it hasn't happened in like situations.


Snyder was/is too in-demand to be involved in a full re-build, so I agree they won't intentionally go that route initially. But that doesn't mean it won't happen organically or that they have a realistic path to being good either.

The thing is, this trade is an accute event, so talking about the Hawks later eroding into a rebuilding team does nothing to reverse the incentives their front office has. It's sort of like how the Spurs, Grizzlies and Sixers didn't tear down when they were aging teams stuck in the mire, even though their continued decline was foreseeable.


They can intend to retain Young for now, but he could also request a trade and we know how that ends.

Where does that end? It's not merely a trade. George, Leonard, Davis, Durant and Lillard all asked out. Davis and Durant are the only teams that got traded to the place that had the most leverage, and that only happened because those teams bent over and gave everything for them. The Lakers and Heat thought they had the leverage and lost out to teams that were willing to come correct and offer substantial deals. I'm not suggesting the Spurs wouldn't come correct in their offer. I am saying that teams tend to go with the move that gives them leverage over reducing the leverage they have against them. I would not be surprised to see a team beat the Spurs out for Young even if they want him. Of course, as I mentioned, with the DPE available this summer and a year-long restriction after signing it, I don't think we'll see a Young trade demand.


I'm speaking to the hypothetical scenario where the Hawks are open to it and the Spurs are interested. Of course they may not be, but in the event they are, I see this as far more straightforward (in terms of why the Spurs should pursuit it) than you and others seem to think.

Everything doesn't have to be so convoluted and drawn out.

That's ... fine? You quoted me talking about how the Hawks might not value their picks back given that teams tend to not value them. I'm glad in the scenario where the teams want to make a trade you think they can make one. I wouldn't disagree there. But I don't see why the discussion should be locked into that scenario. When you purposefully reduce the complexity of the band of scenarios, of course it's not convoluted at all. But when folks are getting into the weeds about where their personal lines for what they want the Spurs to offer and how much they think it'll take, that complexity comes back. It's not because we know those teams have complex beliefs about those picks, but because we don't know what beliefs they have. Assuming we do is how you get people saying certain scenarios are likely that don't jive with history.

[mudyez]

F☆☆☆ Wemby sitting next to Tre, joking around.

[Joseph Kony]

Trae to SA confirmed

[manufan10]

Wemby sitting next to Trae right now. :wow

[exstatic]

Y’all are like HS girls discussing who’s eating lunch at what table. :lol

[gambit1990]

Y’all are like HS girls discussing who’s eating lunch at what table. :lol
HS girls are right about things sometimes.

[Joseph Kony]

Y’all are like HS girls discussing who’s eating lunch at what table. :lol
you have the 2nd most posts in this thread despite being adamantly against Trae Young :lol

[gambit1990]

[edit]

[gambit1990]

[edit]

[spurs10]

Trae Young and Wemby + plus a lottery draft pick is a team on the rise. Trae might see his future on the rise next to Wemby.

[SOMA Spur]

I imagine it would take a Godfather offer to get it done. ATL gets all their picks back+Charlotte+Chicago+Toronto+Keldon and filler. If we were to keep all our own picks, I'd still probably do it. Wemby plus Trea is must see TV. But if there was a way to keep Toronto and Keldon, swap'em out for Zollins and a juicier pick down the road (Spurs 29). I'd prefer that. I'd love to walk away from this off season with Trea and 2 Talented rookies to start developing now, and still have Keldon coming off the bench. Pick up a Vet in Free Agency then get to work.

[exstatic]

you have the 2nd most posts in this thread despite being adamantly against Trae Young :lol

It’s funny that you have no rewarding comprehension.. If I were adamantly against Trae you, would I have proposed any trades? I’m adamantly against giving up all of their picks, plus Toronto, plus our pick this year.

[scott]

One idea that needs to be jettisoned, IMO, is the premise that ATL is going to undertake some moves to enter a hard re-build while San Antonio controls their draft for the next 3 years. If Atlanta trades Trae to someone else, it will be for a return they feel will make them better, not turn them into bottom dwellers so that the Spurs can reap the benefits. That is just wishful thinking. The Hawks may end up bad and the Spurs may be a high high, but it won't be because the Hawks are hard tanking.

[Splits]

Really rooting for the future Spur to win this 3pt contest.

[objective]

RE: the Hawks front office and whether they'd want to roll with Murray or whether or not they'd prioritize getting their picks backs and stuff like job security ....

The Owner's son is the one who while not at the top of the organizational charts is thought to be the one in charge because he has his father's ear. And job security.

They ignored their established GM's opinion on the Murray trade and forced him out only a year after the ECF on Junior's say so, Landry is just the guy who executes

But they also have been hyper stingy and done whatever it took to avoid the tax, like ultimately trading away 2 starters for 1 combined first that hasn't even completed yet. And they've sold off picks.

So the whole "who's in charge and what edicts does he have to follow" makes this different than other cases of absent picks and stars.

Billionaire Nepo-Babies don't have to live in reality or make sense, life is a playground.

So if Nepo decides that his gut was right to get Murray and he can't be wrong about it, then Young becomes the convenient scapegoat. HE'S the one who constantly fails, not Nepo's decisions. Murray hit 2 game winners in a row recently without Young getting in the way! And if by moving Young along gets them out of or further away from the tax, so much the better.

[Joseph Kony]

It’s funny that you have no rewarding comprehension.. If I were adamantly against Trae you, would I have proposed any trades? I’m adamantly against giving up all of their picks, plus Toronto, plus our pick this year.
:lol

[gambit1990]

i'd be surprised if this happened.

i think the hawks want flashier pieces to show for moving trae.

[gambit1990]

and would the hawks really move murray and trae?

then they'd have a hole at the point / ball handler.

[Mr. Body]

RE: the Hawks front office and whether they'd want to roll with Murray or whether or not they'd prioritize getting their picks backs and stuff like job security ....

The Owner's son is the one who while not at the top of the organizational charts is thought to be the one in charge because he has his father's ear. And job security.

They ignored their established GM's opinion on the Murray trade and forced him out only a year after the ECF on Junior's say so, Landry is just the guy who executes

But they also have been hyper stingy and done whatever it took to avoid the tax, like ultimately trading away 2 starters for 1 combined first that hasn't even completed yet. And they've sold off picks.

So the whole "who's in charge and what edicts does he have to follow" makes this different than other cases of absent picks and stars.

Billionaire Nepo-Babies don't have to live in reality or make sense, life is a playground.

So if Nepo decides that his gut was right to get Murray and he can't be wrong about it, then Young becomes the convenient scapegoat. HE'S the one who constantly fails, not Nepo's decisions. Murray hit 2 game winners in a row recently without Young getting in the way! And if by moving Young along gets them out of or further away from the tax, so much the better.

This is the future conservatives and neolibs have us. There are more ultra rich made from inheritance than actual ideas or work nowadays, so basically a future of failsons making lousy decisions and wrecking things for everyone, but then our politicians are all bought and sold anyway.

[ginobilized]

RE: the Hawks front office and whether they'd want to roll with Murray or whether or not they'd prioritize getting their picks backs and stuff like job security ....

The Owner's son is the one who while not at the top of the organizational charts is thought to be the one in charge because he has his father's ear. And job security.

They ignored their established GM's opinion on the Murray trade and forced him out only a year after the ECF on Junior's say so, Landry is just the guy who executes

But they also have been hyper stingy and done whatever it took to avoid the tax, like ultimately trading away 2 starters for 1 combined first that hasn't even completed yet. And they've sold off picks.

So the whole "who's in charge and what edicts does he have to follow" makes this different than other cases of absent picks and stars.

Billionaire Nepo-Babies don't have to live in reality or make sense, life is a playground.

So if Nepo decides that his gut was right to get Murray and he can't be wrong about it, then Young becomes the convenient scapegoat. HE'S the one who constantly fails, not Nepo's decisions. Murray hit 2 game winners in a row recently without Young getting in the way! And if by moving Young along gets them out of or further away from the tax, so much the better.

Sounds like a lost episode of Succession. I wasn't aware of the situation in Atlanta.

[TD 21]

Again, we aren't talking about what you think makes sense. We're talking about what incentives front offices respond to, and those pretty clearly show teams do not get their picks back trades. This might be the first time that happens, but if it does, it'll go against the trend. It's fine to believe that might happen, but it's shaky to assume it's going to happen when it hasn't happened in like situations.



The thing is, this trade is an accute event, so talking about the Hawks later eroding into a rebuilding team does nothing to reverse the incentives their front office has. It's sort of like how the Spurs, Grizzlies and Sixers didn't tear down when they were aging teams stuck in the mire, even though their continued decline was foreseeable.



Where does that end? It's not merely a trade. George, Leonard, Davis, Durant and Lillard all asked out. Davis and Durant are the only teams that got traded to the place that had the most leverage, and that only happened because those teams bent over and gave everything for them. The Lakers and Heat thought they had the leverage and lost out to teams that were willing to come correct and offer substantial deals. I'm not suggesting the Spurs wouldn't come correct in their offer. I am saying that teams tend to go with the move that gives them leverage over reducing the leverage they have against them. I would not be surprised to see a team beat the Spurs out for Young even if they want him. Of course, as I mentioned, with the DPE available this summer and a year-long restriction after signing it, I don't think we'll see a Young trade demand.



That's ... fine? You quoted me talking about how the Hawks might not value their picks back given that teams tend to not value them. I'm glad in the scenario where the teams want to make a trade you think they can make one. I wouldn't disagree there. But I don't see why the discussion should be locked into that scenario. When you purposefully reduce the complexity of the band of scenarios, of course it's not convoluted at all. But when folks are getting into the weeds about where their personal lines for what they want the Spurs to offer and how much they think it'll take, that complexity comes back. It's not because we know those teams have complex beliefs about those picks, but because we don't know what beliefs they have. Assuming we do is how you get people saying certain scenarios are likely that don't jive with history.

Nobody is assuming anything and you're speaking to a generalization when the context is different for every superstar and star trade. The context here checks a lot of boxes to think it could have legs.

It ends with the player getting traded, sooner than later. If push comes to shove and the Spurs get beat out, it'll more than likely be because they were too conservative. No matter what direction the Hawks may prefer, as some point overall value generally takes precedent and of the teams rumored interested, they've got the most to offer.

[itzsoweezee]

One idea that needs to be jettisoned, IMO, is the premise that ATL is going to undertake some moves to enter a hard re-build while San Antonio controls their draft for the next 3 years. If Atlanta trades Trae to someone else, it will be for a return they feel will make them better, not turn them into bottom dwellers so that the Spurs can reap the benefits. That is just wishful thinking. The Hawks may end up bad and the Spurs may be a high high, but it won't be because the Hawks are hard tanking.

No, the hawks wouldn’t be hard taking, but assuming they would get better by trading Trae would be even more wishful thinking on their part.

If that organization acts rationally at all, it will either (1) not trade Trae to anyone or (2) trade Trae to the spurs. Trading to the lakers or another team will absolutely blow up in atlanta’s face. And San Antonio, if it is acting rationally, should not throw everything it has in the offer for Trae (quite the contrary). The spurs have all the leverage here.

[scott]

It's not about what you think is the likely outcome. It's about how front offices react in these situations. We have seen repeatedly that a team that leverages its future before deciding to sell off assets does not make a priority to reacquire its picks. The only example I can remember of a team doing that is Hinkie getting Philly's protected pick back from Orlando in the Saric/Payton trade. That's it. Even right now, we see Houston trading for Brooklyn's future after selling theirs to OKC and Brooklyn taking Phoenix's rather than trying to get theirs back from Houston. As I said, for better or worse, teams don't do what posters feel confident the Hawks will do.

Most front offices can't survive tanking. So if they have something that's already making them watchable, they aren't necessarily going to be able trade that away with the explicit plan to be awful for three years. They will have to spin it as a way to improve. With Young eligible for the DPE this summer, the Hawks are not in a position where they risk losing Trae for nothing. They have a lot of options open and different trades they can make to rework their roster. Just as the team might trade Murray and keep Young, they might do the opposite under the belief that they can use the greater haul to make an immediate change to their roster. Without knowing what packages are available and how the front office views either player, we don't know what plan they think is the most viable.



I think it's very much the opposite. You and other posters are trying to avoid reality by abstracting it and setting yourself up to be disappointed. A lot of the situation about the Spurs trading for Young is built off theory-crafting and second- or third-order speculation. We don't know if the Spurs have any interest in making a move. We don't know if the Hawks plan to trade either guard at this point, let alone which one they'd try to trade. We don't know what direction they want to go and thus what priority they'd be looking for in packages. We don't know what other teams are willing to offer. We don't know what other players would be on the market. They could get Young, yes. Or they might be beat out by another team. Or they might not even want him. Hell, no one's even considered that Young trade chatter boosts Murray's trade value because it gives the impression that Atlanta might be willing to build around him instead. That would be very similar to what the Spurs did with Parker when they were trying to trade Hill.

No, I'm not saying don't speculate. That's basically what this board is for. I am saying the pieces are probably not fitting together as smoothly as some might think, and if they think that there's probably some wishful thinking taking the place of evidence.

Trying to understand the DPE rules, I thought two things were needed to qualify:

1) a player must have 7 or 8 years in the league;
2) the player must make an all-NBA team (or other things that won't happen) in the season immediate proceeding the extension or two of the three proceeding years>

Two things about Trae:

1) This is only his 6th season
2) He would still need to make an all-NBA team to be eligible for the DPE. I'm not sure how well he is tracking towards this accomplishment, but he was an All-Star replacement, which wouldn't indicate to me that he is on track for all-NBA 3rd team or better.

Does Trae immediately count as in his 7th year (and thus 7 years of service) one day into the new league year? Or his DPE eligibility actually begin in the summer of 2025?

And if he does sign an extension, can it be written as to override his Player Option year (effectively opting out of that option in advance and having it replaced by the exception), or does it by default opt-in?

Interestingly, the standard vet extension (140% of the player's previous salary in the last year of his deal) is already larger for Trae ($68.5MM) than 35% of the 2028 projected cap ($187.7MM * 35% = $65.7MM). So, the 140% rule doesn't really come into play, and Trae would be capped at the SuperMax DPE 35% if he qualifies, or at 30% of the cap if he does not qualify. The difference between the SuperMax versus normal Vet Max for Tre will be $56MM versus $66MM in the first year, and a 4/254 deal versus a 5/385 (if the extension kicked in 2028)

5 and 6-year contracts (including option years) can be extended after the 3rd anniversary of the contract signing. This is only the 2nd year of Trae's current contract, but it was signed on Aug 6, 2021, so I presume that is what makes Trae extension eligible on Aug 6, 2024. (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nba-contract-extensions-intro-veteran-zach-zobell-xk4lc/). However, much like it was in Tatum's interest to wait a season to become SuperMax eligible this summer (as opposed to signing a 2/98 extension last summer), that Trae would want to wait until the Summer of 2025 to be SuperMax eligible when he'll have 7 years of service under his belt (which I think answers my previous question)

I'm just trying to understand how Trae is extension eligible this summer, and you are pretty sharp with the CBA stuff. Am I missing something?

Note: this post has been edited multiple times as I did more research

[Mr. Body]

Trae has made an All-NBA team once, two years ago, on the third team. Considering that he only made the All-Star team this year as an injury replacement, I don't think he'll be looking at one anytime soon.

[scott]

If Trae does not qualify for the DPE, then he is a case where he may want to sign a shorter term extension so that he could make a run at a 35% extension in his 10th year... though the smart money might still be to take the 4/254 rather than risk it.

[JPB]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGlIrmjX0AAM-tI?format=jpg&name=900x900

Great chemistry already :D

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

It wouldn’t be a cheep package, but the Spurs dont need to throw everything at them. Show me what other team is making the mega offer first. Spurs will need to throw Keldon into the deal, and he has value in his own right too.

Pelicans: McCollum, Herb Jones, Daniels/Hawkins + unprotected Lakers pick, unprotected Milwaukee 27', 1-4 protected Pelicans pick in whatever year
OKC: Giddey, Wallace, huge TE (they're under the cap) + however many picks you want to add
Orlando: Suggs, Black, TE + Den '25(1-6 protected), Orl 26', 28', 30' (1-4)
Wolves: KAT
Lakers: Reaves, Hachimura, Russell + Lakers 24' or 25', 29', 31'
Rockets: Vanvleet, Green, Whitmore + Nets 24', Nets 26', Nets swaps in 25', 27'
Jazz: Sexton, George, TE + Cle 25', Min 25', Cle 27', Min 27'

Nets could also throw a ton of picks at them, but in the case of trading Young to a team that isn't SA they're more likely to value getting promising players as well, not just picks.

Young is a good player, despite his flaws, and there would definitely be a bidding war for him. Sure, Spurs can probably outbid everyone due to owning Atlanta's own picks, but he won't come cheap at all, both in terms of value SA would have to send and also salary-wise when they extend him.

[Robz4000]

Skimmed this thread due to the activity the last few days and basically agree with Chinook tbh. I'd be cool with Trae Young but the Spurs need to be thinking long-term with Wemby. As amazing as he's looked he's shown clear signs he won't be ready to be the #1 on a contender for a few seasons, and the 25/26 drafts look pretty damn great at the top tbh.

[JPB]

Skimmed this thread due to the activity the last few days and basically agree with Chinook tbh. I'd be cool with Trae Young but the Spurs need to be thinking long-term with Wemby. As amazing as he's looked he's shown clear signs he won't be ready to be the #1 on a contender for a few seasons, and the 25/26 drafts look pretty damn great at the top tbh.

Wemby will be a NBA top 10 player next season. He's already All NBA defensive, eads the league in blocks, and puts on 20 & 10 on a bad night in a dysfunctional team with no real help... Add in Trae + a couple vets and play Vic 32-35mn/game and he's a 27-30 & 12 player by next year, then ready to lead in year 3.

[Robz4000]

Wemby will be a NBA top 10 player next season. He's already All NBA defensive, eads the league in blocks, and puts on 20 & 10 on a bad night in a dysfunctional team with no real help... Add in Trae + a couple vets and play Vic 32-35mn/game and he's a 27-30 & 12 player by next year, then ready to lead in year 3.

:lol love Wemby but top 10 next season is a pretty tall order. Assuming the Spurs get Young there's zero chance Wemby averages close to 30; there just won't be enough touches/usage. To even get close to that Wemby would have to significantly improve his efficiency which won't happen over one offseason.

[LeBowen]

:lol love Wemby but top 10 next season is a pretty tall order. Assuming the Spurs get Young there's zero chance Wemby averages close to 30; there just won't be enough touches/usage. To even get close to that Wemby would have to significantly improve his efficiency which won't happen over one offseason.

Usage takes are so annoying and casual.
Wemby is missing 5ppg just because his teammates don't have good enough court to find him for easy layups when he's wide open.
His usage is more than enough already. He'll naturaly get more efficent as he develops, cuts out bad shots and turnovers.
Not to mention how opponents can triple team him now without any fear of being punished because his teammates can't shoot.

He's averaging 20.5ppg in 28mpg.
With an elite playmaker, he could easily be at 23-25ppg already even with restricted minutes.
With an elite playmaker and 33-35mpg, he can easily reach 30ppg without even needing to increase his usage that much.

And he'll be the best defender in the league within a year or two and it won't even be close.

[Robz4000]

Usage takes are so annoying and casual.
Wemby is missing 5ppg just because his teammates don't have good enough court to find him for easy layups when he's wide open.
His usage is more than enough already. He'll naturaly get more efficent as he develops, cuts out bad shots and turnovers.
Not to mention how opponents can triple team him now without any fear of being punished because his teammates can't shoot.

He's averaging 20.5ppg in 28mpg.
With an elite playmaker, he could easily be at 23-25ppg already even with restricted minutes.
With an elite playmaker and 33-35mpg, he can easily reach 30ppg without even needing to increase his usage that much.

And he'll be the best defender in the league within a year or two and it won't even be close.

Wemby is missing PPG mainly due to his inefficiency; jacking up shots early in the shot clock and trying to dribble in traffic with his high handle aren't doing himself any favors. It's also been said ad nauseum but Wemby isn't actually open all the time when he calls for the ball; he needs to learn to pick his spots better tbh. Normally I'd say there would be improvement going into next season but the Olympics will take away from his offseason development pretty significantly imo.

Call the usage argument casual all you want but if the Spurs get Young Wemby won't get the same touches he's gotten this year if only for the fact he'll be sharing the court with a player used to similar touches while playing with another ball-dominant player in DJM.

Call me crazy but I don't think Wemby eclipses 30 mpg next season either tbh; i dont think he'll develop the proper conditioning until he gets a full offseason to truly hone himself.

[Robz4000]

Truthfully, I think the Spurs' improvement between this season and the next will come way more from player/roster improvement than Wemby's own improvement tbh.

[tbdog]

https://i.redd.it/9ln16w9529jc1.png

[CGD]

Pelicans: McCollum, Herb Jones, Daniels/Hawkins + unprotected Lakers pick, unprotected Milwaukee 27', 1-4 protected Pelicans pick in whatever year
OKC: Giddey, Wallace, huge TE (they're under the cap) + however many picks you want to add
Orlando: Suggs, Black, TE + Den '25(1-6 protected), Orl 26', 28', 30' (1-4)
Wolves: KAT
Lakers: Reaves, Hachimura, Russell + Lakers 24' or 25', 29', 31'
Rockets: Vanvleet, Green, Whitmore + Nets 24', Nets 26', Nets swaps in 25', 27'
Jazz: Sexton, George, TE + Cle 25', Min 25', Cle 27', Min 27'

Nets could also throw a ton of picks at them, but in the case of trading Young to a team that isn't SA they're more likely to value getting promising players as well, not just picks.

Young is a good player, despite his flaws, and there would definitely be a bidding war for him. Sure, Spurs can probably outbid everyone due to owning Atlanta's own picks, but he won't come cheap at all, both in terms of value SA would have to send and also salary-wise when they extend him.

Who’s saying he’d come cheap?

Im in the camp that it’s ridiculous to throw everything for Trae. That’s 1) unwise, and 2) unnecessary.

Of the scenarios above, OKCs is the only one materially better than what a Spurs package built around Keldon. But it makes no sense for them.

[CGD]

If the Spurs hold the line on giving ATL back their 2025FRP (they should), I wonder if the thing that allows them to sell this trade to the fans is getting the Spurs top 3 pick in 2024.

Framework around:
Keldon + 2024 Top 3 pick + 2027FRP + one of the protected FRPs

[Dejounte]

If the Spurs hold the line on giving ATL back their 2025FRP (they should), I wonder if the thing that allows them to sell this trade to the fans is getting the Spurs top 3 pick in 2024.

Framework around:
Keldon + 2024 Top 3 pick + 2027FRP + one of the protected FRPs

Is Trae always going to be better than anyone projected in the top 3 right now? The answer is fuck yes. Rissacher and Sarr have no chance of being Trae-level good.

[CGD]

Is Trae always going to be better than anyone projected in the top 3 right now? The answer is fuck yes. Rissacher and Sarr have no chance of being Trae-level good.

Yeah, a no brainer from Spurs prospective just wonder if ATL sees it that way. Allows them to see to the base that they got a “Top 3 pick” etc

[LeBowen]

Wemby is missing PPG mainly due to his inefficiency; jacking up shots early in the shot clock and trying to dribble in traffic with his high handle aren't doing himself any favors.

True.


It's also been said ad nauseum but Wemby isn't actually open all the time when he calls for the ball; he needs to learn to pick his spots better tbh.

There are situations where he's demanding the ball for no reason, but he's most definitely open a lot of the time, but noone on our team can throw those passes.


Normally I'd say there would be improvement going into next season but the Olympics will take away from his offseason development pretty significantly imo.

I'd rather have him compete in a real tournament and win some games.


Call the usage argument casual all you want but if the Spurs get Young Wemby won't get the same touches he's gotten this year if only for the fact he'll be sharing the court with a player used to similar touches while playing with another ball-dominant player in DJM.

Sharing the offensive load between a guard and a big is way different from sharing it between two guards.


Call me crazy but I don't think Wemby eclipses 30 mpg next season either tbh; i dont think he'll develop the proper conditioning until he gets a full offseason to truly hone himself.

I think he's going to be in 30-33mpg range.

[mo7888]

No, the hawks wouldn’t be hard taking, but assuming they would get better by trading Trae would be even more wishful thinking on their part.

If that organization acts rationally at all, it will either (1) not trade Trae to anyone or (2) trade Trae to the spurs. Trading to the lakers or another team will absolutely blow up in atlanta’s face. And San Antonio, if it is acting rationally, should not throw everything it has in the offer for Trae (quite the contrary). The spurs have all the leverage here.

100%

[mo7888]

Pelicans: McCollum, Herb Jones, Daniels/Hawkins + unprotected Lakers pick, unprotected Milwaukee 27', 1-4 protected Pelicans pick in whatever year
OKC: Giddey, Wallace, huge TE (they're under the cap) + however many picks you want to add
Orlando: Suggs, Black, TE + Den '25(1-6 protected), Orl 26', 28', 30' (1-4)
Wolves: KAT
Lakers: Reaves, Hachimura, Russell + Lakers 24' or 25', 29', 31'
Rockets: Vanvleet, Green, Whitmore + Nets 24', Nets 26', Nets swaps in 25', 27'
Jazz: Sexton, George, TE + Cle 25', Min 25', Cle 27', Min 27'

Nets could also throw a ton of picks at them, but in the case of trading Young to a team that isn't SA they're more likely to value getting promising players as well, not just picks.

Young is a good player, despite his flaws, and there would definitely be a bidding war for him. Sure, Spurs can probably outbid everyone due to owning Atlanta's own picks, but he won't come cheap at all, both in terms of value SA would have to send and also salary-wise when they extend him.

I'd be very happy with those outcomes (and not because I don't value Trae) because they all make Atlanta worse on the court next year.

[CGD]

^ say nothing of the pressure on ATL that will likely start coming from Trae’s camp. That will only bolster the Spurs’ leverage, in fact, if I’m the Spurs I’m letting that part of the dynamic ripen some more (the visuals from this All-star game should help).

[scott]

No, the hawks wouldn’t be hard taking, but assuming they would get better by trading Trae would be even more wishful thinking on their part.

If that organization acts rationally at all, it will either (1) not trade Trae to anyone or (2) trade Trae to the spurs. Trading to the lakers or another team will absolutely blow up in atlanta’s face. And San Antonio, if it is acting rationally, should not throw everything it has in the offer for Trae (quite the contrary). The spurs have all the leverage here.

Yes, that’s my point. People who think the Hawks are going to trade Trae to another team and get appreciably worse so that their picks that we own become literal golden tickets are wishful thinking. The Hawks haven’t forgotten that we own their draft for the next 3 years. So like, you said, it really limits their range of moves if they are acting rationally.

There, however, is a third option beyond the two you laid out, and it is (3) the Hawks trade Trae in a deal they perceive makes them better, not worse. Something like a KAT swap for Trae would satisfy this. Whether that actually would make the Hawks better or worse would be yet to be seen.

I actually think there probably a few teams who could potentially satisfy this, but the options are limited and as you say, they do give the Spurs more leverage (though not enough to mean the Spurs are just going to play hardball and get Trae on some low-ball offer).

[CGD]

^ valid point on going the other direction, but I struggle to see the teams for them to deal with, perhaps outside of the Clip in a deal involving Paul George. Things there would have to really go sideways, and I don’t buy George’s lack of extension so far an indication that it is. And while KAT could work for ATL, Trae does not fit next to Ant in MIN.

[scott]

I generally agree, CGD, I don’t think there are a lot of “win-win” deals out there for Trae, but I imagine there are a couple (and I wouldn’t know what those are… a lot of times these trades catch us off guard until they happen, right?) and that’s all it takes to mean the Spurs would have to compile a truly competitive offer.

Like I said earlier, if the Spurs really want Trae, they’re going to have to put together a real offer and I don’t see any way that it doesn’t involve ATL25. We can all weigh in on whether or not we’d do that, but at the end of the day our votes don’t count.

[LeBowen]

I generally agree, CGD, I don’t think there are a lot of “win-win” deals out there for Trae, but I imagine there are a couple (and I wouldn’t know what those are… a lot of times these trades catch us off guard until they happen, right?) and that’s all it takes to mean the Spurs would have to compile a truly competitive offer.

Jazz, Magic, Nets are the teams I can see going for Trae.
I don't think he'd be happy to go to Jazz or Nets because those teams still wouldn't be good enough to contend.
Magic is on the right track and Trae would be a great fit there. But I suspect Hawks would prefer to trade him to a team that's at least not in the same division.
Idk about Rockets and Pelicans, they're still undefined roster wise.
Lakers will obviously do their thing, but their assets are laughable.


Like I said earlier, if the Spurs really want Trae, they’re going to have to put together a real offer and I don’t see any way that it doesn’t involve ATL25. We can all weigh in on whether or not we’d do that, but at the end of the day our votes don’t count.

Yeah, feels like we're going in circles at this point and that we went over everything many times over.
Hawks would surely value getting those three picks back more than getting five mediocre first rounders from another team.

And as already said, those Hawks won't be in top5 if they're not back with the Hawks. No chance.
Giving them their picks back with Keldon+Collins is a fair deal. Maybe even another FRP, just not Spurs' own.
Throw in Branham and any other scrub if they're willing to take a flyer.

The more I read about people not wanting Trae, the more I want the Spurs trade for him.
There are obviously valid questions about if he would accept not being the franchise player or if he'd work on his off-ball game, but he's as good of a pairing for Wemby as it gets, if we talk realistic targets.

Draft well this year, get Trae and a couple more veterans and get out of the lottery already. This will be fifth straight lottery draft, we're not the fucking Pistons or Hornets, ffs.
Not yet at least, but will become if we keep liking what we have.

[BatManu20]

:cry

1759029475063280072

[BacktoBasics]

Yes, that’s my point. People who think the Hawks are going to trade Trae to another team and get appreciably worse so that their picks that we own become literal golden tickets are wishful thinking. The Hawks haven’t forgotten that we own their draft for the next 3 years. So like, you said, it really limits their range of moves if they are acting rationally.

There, however, is a third option beyond the two you laid out, and it is (3) the Hawks trade Trae in a deal they perceive makes them better, not worse. Something like a KAT swap for Trae would satisfy this. Whether that actually would make the Hawks better or worse would be yet to be seen.

I actually think there probably a few teams who could potentially satisfy this, but the options are limited and as you say, they do give the Spurs more leverage (though not enough to mean the Spurs are just going to play hardball and get Trae on some low-ball offer).

The KAT trade was the most logical move prior to the season but if they play as good as they’re playing in the post season I don’t think Minny will be particularly motivated to make a move.

[scott]

1759247652527755547

[JPB]

Next: Trae gets french nationality, to play with Wemby in Paris Olympics.

[lefty]

1759247652527755547
Better than Porker

[aissagholi7981]

We're getting Trae and it is going to be phenomenal.

Trae/Jones/Wesley
Vassell/Holiday (He will sign with us after BOS doesn't win the ring this year)/Wesley
Risacher/Johnson IF not traded. If traded, insert random VET
Sohan/Barlow
Wemby/Collins

Add in a few VETS that want to come in and play
One thing we're not mentioning is how much better Vassell will be. All the attention on Wemby/Trae, Vassell will have the easiest time of his life. We're not going to make 5 trades, we never do so lets be realistic. Go get Trae, draft the future SF and add a few small pieces here and there. That lineup can play against anyone. Who are we affraid of, the Wolves? OKC is the only team I'd be worried about.

GO GET TRAE!!!

[mo7888]

Yes, that’s my point. People who think the Hawks are going to trade Trae to another team and get appreciably worse so that their picks that we own become literal golden tickets are wishful thinking. The Hawks haven’t forgotten that we own their draft for the next 3 years. So like, you said, it really limits their range of moves if they are acting rationally.

There, however, is a third option beyond the two you laid out, and it is (3) the Hawks trade Trae in a deal they perceive makes them better, not worse. Something like a KAT swap for Trae would satisfy this. Whether that actually would make the Hawks better or worse would be yet to be seen.

I actually think there probably a few teams who could potentially satisfy this, but the options are limited and as you say, they do give the Spurs more leverage (though not enough to mean the Spurs are just going to play hardball and get Trae on some low-ball offer).

Is anybody really throwing out low ball offers for Trae on here? Ive seen one, other than that they're not really low ball...

[TD 21]

I'll guess the following won't have serious or any interest . . .

Timberwolves: The Towns rumors are tax related and I doubt they'll want or Edwards will be amendable to turning back into more of a secondary ball handler.
Pelicans: Looming tax issues and poor fit with Williamson/Ingram (unless one would be the bait?).
Thunder: They have a better primary creator, an ideal secondary one and no defensive liabilities among their core. They need a combo forward/big in place of Giddey more.
Jazz: Probably don't want to hurt own draft odds in '25 and '26 or recreate facsimile of previous era; plus I doubt Young would be amendable to it.

Teams thought to potentially have interest besides Lakers and Spurs . . .

Nets: If Mitchell is dead set on New York, they're probably in pole position. If not, they could be prime suitors with a Simmons (expiring), Thomas + quality draft capital package.
Magic: Not a great fit with Banchero and Wagner and I doubt they'd include Suggs, who'd be even more important in this scenario; plus their draft capital is middling. Targeting someone like Simons makes more sense.

[scott]

Is anybody really throwing out low ball offers for Trae on here? Ive seen one, other than that they're not really low ball...

I’ve seen a few, but I’d also say that any package that does not include ATL25 can possibly be considered a low-ball offer. I’d love to keep this pick as much as the next person (by, perhaps offering the lower of ATL25 or SA25), but I just don’t see that being realistic for the reasons previously outlined.

I continue to believe the Mitchell trade is a good outline for what “market value” is. On paper, the two players are similar in terms of where Young is now compared to where Mitchell was at the time of the trade. As I’ve stated, I’d rank Mitchell slightly ahead, and I think there is an easily digestible argument that the Cavs overpaid, so those can be taken into account as well.

[exstatic]

I’ve seen a few, but I’d also say that any package that does not include ATL25 can possibly be considered a low-ball offer. I’d love to keep this pick as much as the next person (by, perhaps offering the lower of ATL25 or SA25), but I just don’t see that being realistic for the reasons previously outlined.

I continue to believe the Mitchell trade is a good outline for what “market value” is. On paper, the two players are similar in terms of where Young is now compared to where Mitchell was at the time of the trade. As I’ve stated, I’d rank Mitchell slightly ahead, and I think there is an easily digestible argument that the Cavs overpaid, so those can be taken into account as well.

I think you also have to consider the pick landscape. There just aren’t very many teams that can put together monster packages, simply because of all the past monster packages. There’s like 4-5 teams that pretty much own the picks for the next 4 drafts.

[scott]

I think you also have to consider the pick landscape. There just aren’t very many teams that can put together monster packages, simply because of all the past monster packages. There’s like 4-5 teams that pretty much own the picks for the next 4 drafts.

Of course, but unless Trae asks for a trade, Atlanta’s default position is to keep him unless the receive a fair offer. Atlanta is not compelled to move him.

[mo7888]

I’ve seen a few, but I’d also say that any package that does not include ATL25 can possibly be considered a low-ball offer. I’d love to keep this pick as much as the next person (by, perhaps offering the lower of ATL25 or SA25), but I just don’t see that being realistic for the reasons previously outlined.

I continue to believe the Mitchell trade is a good outline for what “market value” is. On paper, the two players are similar in terms of where Young is now compared to where Mitchell was at the time of the trade. As I’ve stated, I’d rank Mitchell slightly ahead, and I think there is an easily digestible argument that the Cavs overpaid, so those can be taken into account as well.

I don't think it'll be necessary to include their 25 pick, but I also would rather let them trade Trae elsewhere for a lesser offer than part with it.

[Dverde]

If Trae comes to SA and helps them win a championship, Spurs need to retire Dejounte’s jersey. Key contributor for Spurs getting Wemby and Trae.

[Ariel]

Looking at recent All-Stars on the move (noting, not all of these are created equal):



Durant to Suns: 4 unprotected FRPs, one swap, one borderline all-star, and one very good young player. This is the highest end of the market, Trae does not warrant a deal like this. It is, however, worth mentioning that this trade was also precipitated by Durant asking for a trade
Kyrie to Mavs: another case where the player asked for a trade. Nets got two good role players, one FRP and 2 SRPs. This is on the low end of the market, but Kyrie is a special character.
Harden to 76ers: another case where player asked for a trade. Nets got a former all-star who it wasn't totally quite clear at the time was completely broken (who also asked for a trade - Simmons), two role players, and two FRPs.
Vuvevic to Bulls: Magic got a good young prspect and two FRPs
DJM to Hawks: Spurs got 2 unprotected FRPs, a pick swap, and a highly protected FRP
Russ to Houston: OKC got an all-star PG back (CP3), 1 unprotected FRP, 2 top-4 protected FRPs, two swaps.
Gobert to Minny: Utah got: role players, draft rights to Kessler, 4 FRPs, one swap
Mitchell to Cavs: Utah gets a good young player who had not quite shown his full potential (Lauri), a 23-yo guard who had multiple 20+ppg seasons already, 3 FRPs, 2 swaps
Lillard to Bucks: Perhaps the ultimate case of zero leverage by the trading team, Blazers only get an overpriced youngish C, 1 FRP, two Swaps


To me, Mitchell might be the most illustrative trade. At the time he was moved, he was 25, a 3-time all star, but no all-NBA teams. His WS/48 ranged between 0.92-.167, and his BPM had been 4.3 for two consecutive seasons.

At the point Trae will prospectively be traded, he's 25, a 3-time all star, an All-NBA 3rd team under his belt. His WS/48 has ranged between 0.062 (rookie year) and 0.181 (though always > 0.1 since his rookie year) and his BPM has been higher (5.2) than Mitchell's peak but his last few years have not been as good as Mitchell's last two years in Utah (3.3 and 2.7).

Trae and Mitchell are similar on paper, I'd rate Mitchell as a better prospect than Trae at the time he was traded, but not by much. We don't have a Lauri or Sexton to send to Atlanta (outside of Vassell, who I think we all agree we'd like to keep), so that will have to be made up in draft capital.

I'd say a "fair" trade (keeping in mind the assumptions above) would be something like ATL '25 + ATL '27 + TOR '24 + CHA '24 + Keldon + Branham. I would definitely like to keep TOR '24 if I could... maybe ATL '26 Swap can go there instead. This is a lower price than what CLE paid for Mitchell, IMO.

Now, if Trae asks out... that definitely changes things. And I bet there would be a few teams who would scramble some offers together. If you just take TOR '24 out of the deal above, I really like it and I'd do it, personally. Not sure if that is enough. If I am ATL, I am asking for BETTER OF ATL/SA '25.
Of those trades, the Donovan Mitchell in indeed the closest, but it should be noted that those picks at the time of the trade had significantly less value than the ones being talked about here, as did the Minnesota picks Utah got in return for Gobert.

A very interesting case, which you haven't listed, was that of Kevin Love, who was traded from Minnesota to Cleveland in 2014 after years where the team underachieved. At the time he was a 25 y.o. who averaged 26.1 PPG 12.5 RPG 4.4 APG shooting 37.6% from 3, with 3 all star appearances and 2 All NBA 2nd teams. I'd say he was more accomplished and had less question marks than Trae, though only 1 year left on his deal as opposed to Trae who has 2.

What did Minnesota get for him? the #1 pick in a draft that was at least as underwhelming as this (Wiggins went #1), a recent draft bust in Anthony Bennet who posted 4.2 PPG on 35.6 FG%, and a role player in Thaddeus Young. This would be comparable to the Spurs trading the #1 pick in this year's draft (should they land it), Malaki Branham (recent draft pick that underwhelmed so far), Keldon Johnson and Tre Jones (youngish vets that are good rotation pieces).

Another thing to consider is the opportunity cost, which would be represented by the potential deals missed by trading for Trae, like signing one of Donovan Mitchell, Derrick White or Donovan Mitchell in July '25 without giving up a single asset (or less than they'd have to right now, if they do a S&T).

All in all, I'm not against signing Young if the price is low, but I would 100% be against overpaying for him when he's IMO not a top 20 player in the league (more like 25-30)

[scott]

Of those trades, the Donovan Mitchell in indeed the closest, but it should be noted that those picks at the time of the trade had significantly less value than the ones being talked about here, as did the Minnesota picks Utah got in return for Gobert.

A very interesting case, which you haven't listed, was that of Kevin Love, who was traded from Minnesota to Cleveland in 2014 after years where the team underachieved. At the time he was a 25 y.o. who averaged 26.1 PPG 12.5 RPG 4.4 APG shooting 37.6% from 3, with 3 all star appearances and 2 All NBA 2nd teams. I'd say he was more accomplished and had less question marks than Trae, though only 1 year left on his deal as opposed to Trae who has 2.

What did Minnesota get for him? the #1 pick in a draft that was at least as underwhelming as this (Wiggins went #1), a recent draft bust in Anthony Bennet who posted 4.2 PPG on 35.6 FG%, and a role player in Thaddeus Young. This would be comparable to the Spurs trading the #1 pick in this year's draft (should they land it), Malaki Branham (recent draft pick that underwhelmed so far), Keldon Johnson and Tre Jones (youngish vets that are good rotation pieces).

Another thing to consider is the opportunity cost, which would be represented by the potential deals missed by trading for Trae, like signing one of Donovan Mitchell, Derrick White or Donovan Mitchell in July '25 without giving up a single asset (or less than they'd have to right now, if they do a S&T).

All in all, I'm not against signing Young if the price is low, but I would 100% be against overpaying for him when he's IMO not a top 20 player in the league (more like 25-30)

All good thoughts, none of which I necessarily disagree with, other than to say I don't think we should put any eggs into the basket of setting ourselves up for future FA signings. I just don't count on any premier players actually making it to FA. Unless I misunderstand the CBA (which is very much possible), I think Mitchell is eligible for a SuperMax extension this off-season if he makes an All-NBA team this year (I honestly have no idea how feasible this is, but he is an all-star putting up slightly better counting stats than last year when he was second team... you tell me). If he decided to go the FA route, as opposed to the extend-and-trade route, forcing his way to NY, then he will leave a lot of money on the table.

(I'd honestly love someone who understand this stuff better than I to tell me if Trae is actually eligible for a DPE this off-season, as well as Mitchell).

Agree on the opportunity cost, but only really insofar as it pertains to the ability to make other trades. I'm not counting on being able to make a big FA acquisition for the reasons stated AND because our track record outside of LMA doesn't exactly lend credibility to that option.

The Kevin Love example is a good one to look at, but that was also an era where stars weren't being traded for bundles of picks like they are today.

[scott]

If Trae comes to SA and helps them win a championship, Spurs need to retire Dejounte’s jersey. Key contributor for Spurs getting Wemby and Trae.

Who in the summer of 2022 says no to DJM + CHI'25 + TOR'24 in exchange for Wemby + Trae?

[CGD]

Who in the summer of 2022 says no to DJM + CHI'25 + TOR'24 in exchange for Wemby + Trae?

Well if they end up including Keldon to help match salaries, it’s pretty much Leonard/DJ for Wemby/Trae… though I’m still hoping they keep some of the ATL assets :-)

I still do that trade tho

[Rubberducky]

If you guys want a good laugh go check out reddit. Spurs and Hawks pages have been going at each other ever since the trade deadline ended and it's turned into a pettyoff today.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AtlantaHawks/

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBASpurs/

[Ariel]

Who in the summer of 2022 says no to DJM + CHI'25 + TOR'24 in exchange for Wemby + Trae?
The problem with that reasoning is that neither Dejounte, nor any of those picks (Atlanta, Chicago or Toronto) have the same value right now as they did then (Dejounte's value decreased, the picks' value increased). Being hyperbolic, it'd be like trying to convince Denver to take a FRP for Jokic, because no one would have turned down that offer in 2014 for a #41 pick.

My main problem is that the value of those picks don't match at all that of the picks returned in trades for players of similar value: Minnesota's picks for Gobert, Cleveland's picks for Donovan Mitchell, etc. In a vacuum, 4 picks aren't too much, but here were talking 4 likely lottery picks & a swap, 3 of those with very high potential. The Spurs could move one of those higher potential picks for several less valuable ones (say, to OKC or NYK), if the goal is to match a given # of picks.

Another example is Pascal Siakam, a 2 time all star, 2 time all NBA (once 2nd team, once 3rd team). The situation isn't comparable, because he's a few years older (29 vs 24), on an expiring contract, and arguably a tier below. But he's a proven 2-way no. 2 guy on a championship team, and he went for a role player (Bruce Brown) and 3 projected late first rounders. I'm not suggesting this should be a fair valuation for Trae, but rather saying opportunities will arise like they do every year, and you should think twice before running out of ammo (both in terms of assets and salary cap).

Personally I'd probably try to sell Atlanta on a retool (rather than a rebuild) based on a high draft pick this year (the Spurs' own) plus one other pick (Toronto/Chicago), with the possibility of swapping the latter for their own '25 if they take Zach Collins as part of the package. Then include Keldon, and maybe Tre. If they want more picks, include Charlotte's first (kind of fake, but first after all for PR purposes) or use the Spurs #33 + #44 to land a late first rounder this year. That's a total of 4 first round picks, 2 of them high lottery, plus young players. That's the absolute most I'd go for Trae, and I don't think it's a low ball offer at all. Otherwise lets see what the market has to offer them and tell them to come back with a better offer.

[scott]

The problem with that reasoning is that neither Dejounte, nor any of those picks (Atlanta, Chicago or Toronto) have the same value right now as they did then (Dejounte's value decreased, the picks' value increased). Being hyperbolic, it'd be like trying to convince Denver to take a FRP for Jokic, because no one would have turned down that offer in 2014 for a #41 pick.

My main problem is that the value of those picks don't match at all that of the picks returned in trades for players of similar value: Minnesota's picks for Gobert, Cleveland's picks for Donovan Mitchell, etc. In a vacuum, 4 picks aren't too much, but here were talking 4 likely lottery picks & a swap, 3 of those with very high potential. The Spurs could move one of those higher potential picks for several less valuable ones (say, to OKC or NYK), if the goal is to match a given # of picks.

Another example is Pascal Siakam, a 2 time all star, 2 time all NBA (once 2nd team, once 3rd team). The situation isn't comparable, because he's a few years older (29 vs 24), on an expiring contract, and arguably a tier below. But he's a proven 2-way no. 2 guy on a championship team, and he went for a role player (Bruce Brown) and 3 projected late first rounders. I'm not suggesting this should be a fair valuation for Trae, but rather saying opportunities will arise like they do every year, and you should think twice before running out of ammo (both in terms of assets and salary cap).

Personally I'd probably try to sell Atlanta on a retool (rather than a rebuild) based on a high draft pick this year (the Spurs' own) plus one other pick (Toronto/Chicago), with the possibility of swapping the latter for their own '25 if they take Zach Collins as part of the package. Then include Keldon, and maybe Tre. If they want more picks, include Charlotte's first (kind of fake, but first after all for PR purposes) or use the Spurs #33 + #44 to land a late first rounder this year. That's a total of 4 first round picks, 2 of them high lottery, plus young players. That's the absolute most I'd go for Trae, and I don't think it's a low ball offer at all. Otherwise lets see what the market has to offer them and tell them to come back with a better offer.

Always appreciate your way of thinking, but just so you know I'm not purposely ignoring you - I'm just done talking about the ATL'25 pick after this post. I've provided numerous reasons why I think ATL would demand that specific pick as a starting point. You can agree, or disagree, that's fine... I'm just done quibbling about it because in my opinion it is pretty obvious that they won't send Trae to San Antonio without that pick as part of the package. I'd love to keep it, but it doesn't make any sense from ATL's POV. They are not going to give us Trae Young and a chance at one of two highly thought of prospects (Flagg and AJ Dybantsa, who we have not talked about much on this forum but I've seen places where he is ranked ahead of Flagg). When Trae demands a trade, the calculus changes.

Edit: Correction, apparently Dybantsa will be in the 2026 draft, but is rated ahead of Boozer as of right now.

[MultiTroll]

Edit: Correction, apparently Dybantsa will be in the 2026 draft, but is rated ahead of Boozer as of right now.
One article said dyb reclassified to the 25 draft. Is there an absolute latest on this?

[tbdog]

Trae is the best pick n roll lob passer in the NBA. That combo would be deadly.

[CGD]

One article said dyb reclassified to the 25 draft. Is there an absolute latest on this?

I think that was in reference to choking to college earlier, but not sure.

In any event, that what the ATL pick swap is for :-)

[mudd]

Trae is the best pick n roll lob passer in the NBA. That combo would be deadly.
How would anyone stop that! Just build a defense around that. Of course how would b wrong figure that one out!

[MultiTroll]

I think that was in reference to choking to college earlier, but not sure.
eh?

[onechance87]

gotta hope atl to miss the playoffs this season to get things moving for a potential trade.

[Spurs Homer]

We're getting Trae and it is going to be phenomenal.

Trae/Jones/Wesley
Vassell/Holiday (He will sign with us after BOS doesn't win the ring this year)/Wesley
Risacher/Johnson IF not traded. If traded, insert random VET
Sohan/Barlow
Wemby/Collins

Add in a few VETS that want to come in and play
One thing we're not mentioning is how much better Vassell will be. All the attention on Wemby/Trae, Vassell will have the easiest time of his life. We're not going to make 5 trades, we never do so lets be realistic. Go get Trae, draft the future SF and add a few small pieces here and there. That lineup can play against anyone. Who are we affraid of, the Wolves? OKC is the only team I'd be worried about.

GO GET TRAE!!!

get rid of blackhole vassell and ill co-sign

[scott]

One article said dyb reclassified to the 25 draft. Is there an absolute latest on this?

I think he reclassified from the ‘26 class to the ‘25 class, but apparently when they use “class” they are talking about the year they enter college, not the year they enter the draft.

[MultiTroll]

So at this point in development, with plenty of time to change.....

Boozer or Dyba would be an absolute score to pair with Wemby?

[spurraider21]

It's not about what you think is the likely outcome. It's about how front offices react in these situations. We have seen repeatedly that a team that leverages its future before deciding to sell off assets does not make a priority to reacquire its picks. The only example I can remember of a team doing that is Hinkie getting Philly's protected pick back from Orlando in the Saric/Payton trade. That's it. Even right now, we see Houston trading for Brooklyn's future after selling theirs to OKC and Brooklyn taking Phoenix's rather than trying to get theirs back from Houston. As I said, for better or worse, teams don't do what posters feel confident the Hawks will do.
thats in part because its pretty rare for the team to have just been a big seller becoming a big buyer that soon.

after OKC traded westbrook to houston, its not like OKC was actively trying to buy harden at that point. that was the same offseason where they were unloading PG to the clippers.

when houston sold harden to brooklyn, its true that brooklyn didnt go back to houston, they went to philly/phoenix to offload harden and durant. but was houston actively trying to trade for a star at that point?

so houston didnt really have the opportunity to buy its future back from OKC, nor did Brooklyn have that opp with phoenix.

its not a usual circumstance where a team that just blew it up is potentially looking to trade picks for parts within 1 season. while the spurs had been trading parts for a while, the murray trade was the obvious tipping point and 1.5 seasons later the spurs have an all-time foundational piece who looks poised to get better quickly

[scott]

So at this point in development, with plenty of time to change.....

Boozer or Dyba would be an absolute score to pair with Wemby?

I honestly don't know much about these kids other than they are the next "generational talents" (along with Flagg). AJ is a SF, Boozer a PF... so I'd assume they'd be theoretical fits, but I actually don't know.

[manufan10]

One less option available this offseason:

1759640286165106838

[Mitch Cumsteen]

The number of people pining for this empty calorie, no defense playing, coach killing, bad teammate, ball dominant chucker is incredible. I don't care what the stats say. Trae Young plays losing basketball. He's a loser.

Granted, he looks like the love child of Michael Jordan and Steph Curry every time he faces the Spurs, but dear lord he will get hunted endlessly and mercilessly on defense in the playoffs. The notion that Victor is going to cover up for him is ridiculous. As if NBA teams are going to walk Vic into those switches. That's not how it works. They are going to cockroach him in the corner, and play 4 on 3 while Young get bullied to death. You don't even have to go into the paint to exploit Young. Teams kill him twenty feet from the basket. The Spurs need long, switchable guys on defense to maximize and fully unleash Victor. Why on God's green earth would you try to handicap Wemby like that?

[rankingtear]

The number of people pining for this empty calorie, no defense playing, coach killing, bad teammate, ball dominant chucker is incredible. I don't care what the stats say. Trae Young plays losing basketball. He's a loser.

Granted, he looks like the love child of Michael Jordan and Steph Curry every time he faces the Spurs, but dear lord he will get hunted endlessly and mercilessly on defense in the playoffs. The notion that Victor is going to cover up for him is ridiculous. As if NBA teams are going to walk Vic into those switches. That's not how it works. They are going to cockroach him in the corner, and play 4 on 3 while Young get bullied to death. You don't even have to go into the paint to exploit Young. Teams kill him twenty feet from the basket. The Spurs need long, switchable guys on defense to maximize and fully unleash Victor. Why on God's green earth would you try to handicap Wemby like that?

Nobody in here watched Aaron Gordon bully balled Gabe Vincent in the finals.

[spurraider21]

One less option available this offseason:

1759640286165106838
thats Tre Jones money!

[Kevin]

Been running lottery scenarios on Tankathon and what if the Hawks land in the top 4? Would it change their plans at all in regards to Young? It probably wouldn't given the weakness of this year class at the top but its worth thinking about.

[LeBowen]

Nobody in here watched Aaron Gordon bully balled Gabe Vincent in the finals.

Because there's a guard in the league Aaron Gordon wouldn't bully.

[onechance87]

how much yall think tyrus jones gonna be to get.

[LeBowen]

how much yall think tyrus jones gonna be to get.

Reports said Wizards were asking for 4 second rounders.

Idk, it would be a minor upgrade.

Spurs need a player that's capable of three level scoring and running the offense.
It doesn't look like Devin will be ever be able to do that. I'd say that he also needs a better point guard.

Meaning that unless we stumble on the next great point forward, we need someone like Trae. Our offense is prehistoric and spacing is horrible.

[RC_Drunkford]

One less option available this offseason:

1759640286165106838

this will keep happening to potential targets. We need to make trades.


The number of people pining for this empty calorie, no defense playing, coach killing, bad teammate, ball dominant chucker is incredible. I don't care what the stats say. Trae Young plays losing basketball. He's a loser.

Granted, he looks like the love child of Michael Jordan and Steph Curry every time he faces the Spurs, but dear lord he will get hunted endlessly and mercilessly on defense in the playoffs. The notion that Victor is going to cover up for him is ridiculous. As if NBA teams are going to walk Vic into those switches. That's not how it works. They are going to cockroach him in the corner, and play 4 on 3 while Young get bullied to death. You don't even have to go into the paint to exploit Young. Teams kill him twenty feet from the basket. The Spurs need long, switchable guys on defense to maximize and fully unleash Victor. Why on God's green earth would you try to handicap Wemby like that?

you clearly haven't watched the Hawks. Young is far from being the main problem on the defensive end for that team. He plays with 3 starters who are worse than him on defense. He's first in TO created in crunch time in the NBA. He's 11th in steals per game. He's one of the best at drawing charges and the Hawks don't bench him when they need stops. This ain't Malaki Branham we are talking about.

[tbdog]

How would anyone stop that! Just build a defense around that. Of course how would b wrong figure that one out!

It's also about making the next move. It's hawks want vassell, it's about finding the next 3&D

[JeffDuncan]

how much yall think tyrus jones gonna be to get.


For the Spurs, too much. Tyus is essentially a backup-tier point guard like Tre. The Spurs shouldn’t be interested in another such player as long as they’re still trying to develop Wesley.

Tyus will be UFA this summer, coming off a two-year contract for $29 M total, $15 M the first year, then $14 M this year. But that nice contract was a reward from the Grizz for doing such a good job filling in for Ja Morant. In other situations Tyus isn’t worth that much. I seriously doubt it, anyway.

As a starter for the Wiz he’s worth that, I suppose. To them. Maybe.

But I don’t think the Spurs will sign the Backup Brothers. They should get together and do a music video if they haven’t already.

[Kevin]

It's also about making the next move. It's hawks want vassell, it's about finding the next 3&D

The Hawks can have Dev if they want him. Young and Dev are a bad fit on defense since they both suck on that end and Dev cant play SF. Dev and DJM mesh better together since Murrary is still a decent defender.

A Young/Dev/Keldon lineup has me running for cover on defense.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

you clearly haven't watched the Hawks. Young is far from being the main problem on the defensive end for that team. He plays with 3 starters who are worse than him on defense. He's first in TO created in crunch time in the NBA. He's 11th in steals per game. He's one of the best at drawing charges and the Hawks don't bench him when they need stops. This ain't Malaki Branham we are talking about.

Just because he isn't the main problem, doesn't mean that he's still not a problem. And even though I have little love for defensive statistics (including the ones you cited), he's still got the worst defensive box score plus/minus of any of their rotation players. There's a lot of turd polishing here for a guy who is never going to be an even league average defender. He's too small, too weak, and too slow. He would be a fun sixth man instant offense guy off the bench, but you are in for a world of hurt if you're relying on him to do anything but have the world's most punchable face while dominating the ball and getting mercilessly hunted in the playoffs.

Outside of one great series against a flawed Knicks team and being in the building while Ben Simmons and the Sixers imploded, this guy has done nothing but lose. He's the ultimate empty calories guy that this front office should avoid like the plague. Not to mention the off the court stuff... bad teammate, bad dude, just about the anti-Spur in every way.

[LeBowen]

The Hawks can have Dev if they want him. Young and Dev are a bad fit on defense since they both suck on that end and Dev cant play SF. Dev and DJM mesh better together since Murrary is still a decent defender.

A Young/Dev/Keldon lineup has me running for cover on defense.

If they see both Devin as Keldon as positive assets and players they'd like to have, I'd do Devin+Keldon+Collins for Trae+Capela.
Would give them back one of their picks and a swap, with Spurs keeping the other one.

I don't see there's a place for Devin on the roster if Spurs want Trae.
Spending more than 70 million on your backcourt when neither of them is a good defender and only one is star level isn't something you want to do in the modern NBA.

In general, I don't think Devin should be a long-term piece if he doesn't develop into a legit second scoring option. Not worth it with his new contract.
You can't earn 30 milliion and go missing in half the games.
(I'm not saying he won't or can't develop, I'm just saying if he doesn't.)

[SpursBills]

Just because he isn't the main problem, doesn't mean that he's still not a problem. And even though I have little love for defensive statistics (including the ones you cited), he's still got the worst defensive box score plus/minus of any of their rotation players. There's a lot of turd polishing here for a guy who is never going to be an even league average defender. He's too small, too weak, and too slow. He would be a fun sixth man instant offense guy off the bench, but you are in for a world of hurt if you're relying on him to do anything but have the world's most punchable face while dominating the ball and getting mercilessly hunted in the playoffs.

Outside of one great series against a flawed Knicks team and being in the building while Ben Simmons and the Sixers imploded, this guy has done nothing but lose. He's the ultimate empty calories guy that this front office should avoid like the plague. Not to mention the off the court stuff... bad teammate, bad dude, just about the anti-Spur in every way.

I’m more of a moderate in this debate but just wondering if you’d be against a trade if instead of Trae young the spurs had the opportunity to get Haliburton, maxey, fox, prime dame, or Brunson. Seems like the only engines that can’t be hunted are SGA who’s an mvp candidate and Luka whose defense is bad but is large. Or would you rather get a 2 way guard who can’t drive efficient offense and try and get a playmaking wing, and if thats the case, how would you propose the spurs obtain one?

[LeBowen]

Just because he isn't the main problem, doesn't mean that he's still not a problem. And even though I have little love for defensive statistics (including the ones you cited), he's still got the worst defensive box score plus/minus of any of their rotation players. There's a lot of turd polishing here for a guy who is never going to be an even league average defender. He's too small, too weak, and too slow. He would be a fun sixth man instant offense guy off the bench, but you are in for a world of hurt if you're relying on him to do anything but have the world's most punchable face while dominating the ball and getting mercilessly hunted in the playoffs.

Outside of one great series against a flawed Knicks team and being in the building while Ben Simmons and the Sixers imploded, this guy has done nothing but lose. He's the ultimate empty calories guy that this front office should avoid like the plague. Not to mention the off the court stuff... bad teammate, bad dude, just about the anti-Spur in every way.

People like you are impossible to discuss with.
Concerns about his fit and defense are fair, but when you start talking about punchable face and ridiculous stuff like bad teammate and dude I can't take your post seriously.

Was Parker a good dude and teammate?
Was Bowen an epitome of sportsmanship?
Was Kawhi a true Spur?

Stop with the nonsense, Timmy isn't walking back through that door.

[LeBowen]

I’m more of a moderate in this debate but just wondering if you’d be against a trade if instead of Trae young the spurs had the opportunity to get Haliburton, maxey, fox, prime dame, or Brunson. Seems like the only engines that can’t be hunted are SGA who’s an mvp candidate and Luka whose defense is bad but is large. Or would you rather get a 2 way guard who can’t drive efficient offense and try and get a playmaking wing, and if thats the case, how would you propose the spurs obtain one?

We went over it many times.
All across the league, the only all-star or potentially all-star level point guards that could become available in realistic scenarios are Trae and Garland.
Noone else will be available. And as you said, most of them are really bad defenders. As were most other star playmakers over the past decades.
The only hope of getting a good defensive point guard is Celtics having another meltdown and Derrick becoming available because he won't be able to pay him again.
Other than that, if Spurs want a two-way guard, they better find someone in the draft.

You can afford your star players to be subpar defenders, but role players, especially starters can't.
Right now, outside of Wemby there's not a single consistently good defender on the roster.
Jeremy can get there, maybe Devin, but others are just garbage and need to go even if we get the next Gary Payton at point.

[SpursBills]

We went over it many times.
All across the league, the only all-star or potentially all-star level point guards that could become available in realistic scenarios are Trae and Garland.
Noone else will be available. And as you said, most of them are really bad defenders. As were most other star playmakers over the past decades.
The only hope of getting a good defensive point guard is Celtics having another meltdown and Derrick becoming available because he won't be able to pay him again.
Other than that, if Spurs want a two-way guard, they better find someone in the draft.

You can afford your star players to be subpar defenders, but role players, especially starters can't.
Right now, outside of Wemby there's not a single consistently good defender on the roster.
Jeremy can get there, maybe Devin, but others are just garbage and need to go even if we get the next Gary Payton at point.

Yes I know, I was just taking issue with the ‘bad defender’ argument by pointing out that if you want a driver of efficient offense, you almost always have to sacrifice defense

[scott]

Did we ever get resolution on whether Trae is extension eligible this summer? Chinook originally raised this, but my reading of the DPE rules suggest that he is not.

[manufan10]

1759447244325970306

[vy65]

Did we ever get resolution on whether Trae is extension eligible this summer? Chinook originally raised this, but my reading of the DPE rules suggest that he is not.

Could be way, way off, but he had an extension kick in last year, and doesn't have an early termination option until the '26-'27 season, so I don't see how he could be eligible when he still has at least 2 years left on his contract.

[objective]

While I don't want to see Vassell moved to ATL in a deal, I do think it would grease things more than other players because Vassell is from Georgia and would be considered a 'local' as far as PR

Vassell is worth picks on his own so the total deal shouldn't have too many picks from SA's side

[scott]

I might be overrating Vassell here, but I think Vassell + ATL’25 + CHI’25 is a fair deal (mind you, I still hold that ATL’25 is a non-negotiable piece of the equation). I’m not sure how much I care for this though… it creates a massive hole to fill.

[Joseph Kony]

I might be overrating Vassell here, but I think Vassell + ATL’25 + CHI’25 is a fair deal (mind you, I still hold that ATL’25 is a non-negotiable piece of the equation). I’m not sure how much I care for this though… it creates a massive hole to fill.
i'm pretty confident the Spurs can find someone out there to replace Vassell's 18ppg on average offensive efficiency and mediocre defense fairly easily

[Kevin]

I might be overrating Vassell here, but I think Vassell + ATL’25 + CHI’25 is a fair deal (mind you, I still hold that ATL’25 is a non-negotiable piece of the equation). I’m not sure how much I care for this though… it creates a massive hole to fill.

If DJM's reported value is one unprotected first then Dev's would be equal if not lesser than that I would imagine.

Dev+ all the the ATL picks but they have to take back Zollins seems fair. Spurs would still have 30m+ in cap space and could even do some rent a cap space trades to recoup draft capitol.

[mo7888]

If DJM's reported value is one unprotected first then Dev's would be equal if not lesser than that I would imagine.

Dev+ all the the ATL picks but they have to take back Zollins seems fair. Spurs would still have 30m+ in cap space and could even do some rent a cap space trades to recoup draft capitol.

DJM was valued at 1 first.... Atlanta passed in that... he'll be worth 2 this summer when more teams have future firsts. .

Dev + KJ + our 1st this year or their 25 1st would probably get it done. Conversely, Scott's proposal without KJ would probably get it done too, if we really want Trae.

[Chinook]

thats in part because its pretty rare for the team to have just been a big seller becoming a big buyer that soon.

after OKC traded westbrook to houston, its not like OKC was actively trying to buy harden at that point. that was the same offseason where they were unloading PG to the clippers.

when houston sold harden to brooklyn, its true that brooklyn didnt go back to houston, they went to philly/phoenix to offload harden and durant. but was houston actively trying to trade for a star at that point?

so houston didnt really have the opportunity to buy its future back from OKC, nor did Brooklyn have that opp with phoenix.

its not a usual circumstance where a team that just blew it up is potentially looking to trade picks for parts within 1 season. while the spurs had been trading parts for a while, the murray trade was the obvious tipping point and 1.5 seasons later the spurs have an all-time foundational piece who looks poised to get better quickly

Houston didn't seem to try to get its picks back from OKC. Harden may not really have had that kind of value though. Durant definitely did, and as we can see, the Rockets seem perfectly willing to give the Nets their picks back for Bridges. The Nets have balked despite being a couple of free-agent misses from giving up multiple lotto picks. It's easy to explain why in their case -- they aren't tanking. They want to win, and they think between Bridges, the Suns picks and their perceived free-agent advantages, they could build better not doing that.

It's rare to have all-in teams in the first place, but the number of all-in teams that fall apart quickly doesn't seem that rare adjusting for that. Teams usually make deals like this in order to respond to a closing window, so the result if often that those teams find themselves in a position where they have to sell off pieces. ATL's trade wasn't even that all-inish. It's only because the picks were pushed out three years that really makes this seem separate from the Siakam trade. Normally, we'd be talking about just a 2025 pick being open. The market went crazy for a couple of years with very little to show for it for the teams that spent all those picks. While I'd assume we'll see more conservative offers from teams going forward, I think the value of having a team over a barrel has been demonstrated enough. That's even more true if the Hawks choose Murray over Young, since they wouldn't be doing that to tank and may not see Murray, Johnson and some return as a team that would give up valuable picks they would prioritize getting back from SA.

[Kevin]

DJM was valued at 1 first.... Atlanta passed in that... he'll be worth 2 this summer when more teams have future firsts. .

Dev + KJ + our 1st this year or their 25 1st would probably get it done. Conversely, Scott's proposal without KJ would probably get it done too, if we really want Trae.

People want a shot at Flagg or Boozer but Atlanta wants the same opportunity if things fall apart. If you want Young you have to part with the 25&26 picks. You might be able to hold on to 27 pick if you included Dev without attaching Zollins.

[RC_Drunkford]

Just because he isn't the main problem, doesn't mean that he's still not a problem. And even though I have little love for defensive statistics (including the ones you cited), he's still got the worst defensive box score plus/minus of any of their rotation players. There's a lot of turd polishing here for a guy who is never going to be an even league average defender. He's too small, too weak, and too slow. He would be a fun sixth man instant offense guy off the bench, but you are in for a world of hurt if you're relying on him to do anything but have the world's most punchable face while dominating the ball and getting mercilessly hunted in the playoffs.

Outside of one great series against a flawed Knicks team and being in the building while Ben Simmons and the Sixers imploded, this guy has done nothing but lose. He's the ultimate empty calories guy that this front office should avoid like the plague. Not to mention the off the court stuff... bad teammate, bad dude, just about the anti-Spur in every way.

tell me you're a hater without telling me you're a hater

[exstatic]

People want a shot at Flagg or Boozer but Atlanta wants the same opportunity if things fall apart. If you want Young you have to part with the 25&26 picks. You might be able to hold on to 27 pick if you included Dev without attaching Zollins.

The 27 pick becomes crap, in that case.

[Kevin]

The 27 pick becomes crap, in that case.

I mostly agree with that.

The most likely trade will be Keldon plus all the the DJM picks refunded. I would really like to include Zollins but it will probably take the Bulls or Raps pick to do it.

[scott]

Houston didn't seem to try to get its picks back from OKC. Harden may not really have had that kind of value though. Durant definitely did, and as we can see, the Rockets seem perfectly willing to give the Nets their picks back for Bridges. The Nets have balked despite being a couple of free-agent misses from giving up multiple lotto picks. It's easy to explain why in their case -- they aren't tanking. They want to win, and they think between Bridges, the Suns picks and their perceived free-agent advantages, they could build better not doing that.

It's rare to have all-in teams in the first place, but the number of all-in teams that fall apart quickly doesn't seem that rare adjusting for that. Teams usually make deals like this in order to respond to a closing window, so the result if often that those teams find themselves in a position where they have to sell off pieces. ATL's trade wasn't even that all-inish. It's only because the picks were pushed out three years that really makes this seem separate from the Siakam trade. Normally, we'd be talking about just a 2025 pick being open. The market went crazy for a couple of years with very little to show for it for the teams that spent all those picks. While I'd assume we'll see more conservative offers from teams going forward, I think the value of having a team over a barrel has been demonstrated enough. That's even more true if the Hawks choose Murray over Young, since they wouldn't be doing that to tank and may not see Murray, Johnson and some return as a team that would give up valuable picks they would prioritize getting back from SA.

I get what you are saying, but if we are looking at the past and noting that teams rarely try to get their own picks back, we need to also consider the perfect confluence of events required for that kind of discussion to happen.

In the case of Harden and Houston… for all we know Houston would have loved to go get their picks back from OKC, but at that time OKC was going into tank mode - why would they have entertained giving all that draft capital back?

In this case we would (potentially, we don’t actually even know at this point - it’s all still speculation) have a team (Atlanta) looking to rebuild just at the exact perfect time that the team who holds all their picks (San Antonio) was looking to add a high profile piece… AND (another important part of this confluence) is that Atlanta has a player they wouldn’t mind parting with that San Antonio covets (allegedly). Perhaps there aren’t example of it happening like this before, because this confluence of events hasn’t happened before?

[TD 21]

People like you are impossible to discuss with.
Concerns about his fit and defense are fair, but when you start talking about punchable face and ridiculous stuff like bad teammate and dude I can't take your post seriously.

Was Parker a good dude and teammate?
Was Bowen an epitome of sportsmanship?
Was Kawhi a true Spur?

Stop with the nonsense, Timmy isn't walking back through that door.

Not only that, but this notion that you can't win with a small guard who'll get "hunted" in the playoffs is the latest myth . . .

You couldn't win with the best player as a non C, until Johnson, Bird and Jordan did.

You couldn't win without a superstar, until the '04 Pistons did.

You couldn't win the best player as a small guard, until Thomas and Curry did. Granted, the former was more so an ensemble cast and the latter has benefitted from unprecedented opponent injury luck + the then 2nd best player in the league parachuting onto his team.

You couldn't win without a minimum good C, until the "Heatles" did.

You couldn't win without a big wing as your best player, until Antetokounmpo did.

You couldn't win with a C who isn't a great defensive anchor/rim protector, until Jokic did.

There's always exceptions based on the individuals involved. If Wembanyama becomes as most expect, which is the best player in the league, then yeah he likely can win with a small guard, who's a star in his own right, as the second best player.

You probably can't have more than one in the rotation and they need to be a superstar or star though.

[mo7888]

People want a shot at Flagg or Boozer but Atlanta wants the same opportunity if things fall apart. If you want Young you have to part with the 25&26 picks. You might be able to hold on to 27 pick if you included Dev without attaching Zollins.

I don't want him that bad.... So I'd balk at that price

[Russo21]

He's an interesting player for sure. Puts up something like 27 and 11, gets a few steals here and there but is obviously a defensive liability. Wemby and Young together would be lob City and a dynamic 3 point shooting team also. He'd instantly make Wemby's life easier, he'd probably average 30 next year with Young feeding him. Then you factor in his shooting % which is 42% and 37% which isn't so good, i thought itd be better actually. It's an interesting one, he's young, the move has lots of upside and lots of downside for the team. Surround him with a few defenders and it could work out. I'm not enamoured yet with anyone on the team as is really, I don't think there's a player currently on the roster capable of being the 2nd best player on a championship team so if it can be done and the price is right it's worth a shot. Bring on draft day and the off-season already!

[exstatic]

He's an interesting player for sure. Puts up something like 27 and 11, gets a few steals here and there but is obviously a defensive liability. Wemby and Young together would be lob City and a dynamic 3 point shooting team also. He'd instantly make Wemby's life easier, he'd probably average 30 next year with Young feeding him. Then you factor in his shooting % which is 42% and 37% which isn't so good, i thought itd be better actually. It's an interesting one, he's young, the move has lots of upside and lots of downside for the team. Surround him with a few defenders and it could work out. I'm not enamoured yet with anyone on the team as is really, I don't think there's a player currently on the roster capable of being the 2nd best player on a championship team so if it can be done and the price is right it's worth a shot. Bring on draft day and the off-season already!

He needs to stop taking crappy shots. Victor would have enough gravity to get him super clean looks right at the arc. No more of this logo shit. He could probably shoot 40-42% from long if he cleaned up his looks.

[gambit1990]

i’m under the impression he’s never tried out for team usa? kinda surprising.

i wonder how many interactions he and pop have had.

[TD 21]

He's an interesting player for sure. Puts up something like 27 and 11, gets a few steals here and there but is obviously a defensive liability. Wemby and Young together would be lob City and a dynamic 3 point shooting team also. He'd instantly make Wemby's life easier, he'd probably average 30 next year with Young feeding him. Then you factor in his shooting % which is 42% and 37% which isn't so good, i thought itd be better actually. It's an interesting one, he's young, the move has lots of upside and lots of downside for the team. Surround him with a few defenders and it could work out. I'm not enamoured yet with anyone on the team as is really, I don't think there's a player currently on the roster capable of being the 2nd best player on a championship team so if it can be done and the price is right it's worth a shot. Bring on draft day and the off-season already!

Career EFG%: 50.6 (league average is about 53 this season) and career TS%: 58.1 (league average is about 58 this season).

He's a good, not great shooter, but he is a versatile shot maker (pullups, float game) and dangerous enough for defenses to respect him in the p-n-r and off the ball.

Put him with what will eventually probably be the best player in the league and his efficiency should improve.

[Mnky]

Career EFG%: 50.6 (league average is about 53 this season) and career TS%: 58.1 (league average is about 58 this season).

He's a good, not great shooter, but he is a versatile shot maker (pullups, float game) and dangerous enough for defenses to respect him in the p-n-r and off the ball.

Put him with what will eventually probably be the best player in the league and his efficiency should improve.

Steph is basically the only guard in the top 20 of efg. Which let's you know that isn't normally reserved for guards. You find guards who are mostly off ball players leading there, not the ones running the show.

Trae is an above average shooter. He makes his own shots, he doesn't have anywhere near the system someone like Steph has.

Dame is another great shooter around the 50% mark. It's a good idea of players but don't think it's as important as it would seem for the lead guard.

McDermott is 26 in NBA history at 57%.

[venitian navigator]

Just because he isn't the main problem, doesn't mean that he's still not a problem. And even though I have little love for defensive statistics (including the ones you cited), he's still got the worst defensive box score plus/minus of any of their rotation players. There's a lot of turd polishing here for a guy who is never going to be an even league average defender. He's too small, too weak, and too slow. He would be a fun sixth man instant offense guy off the bench, but you are in for a world of hurt if you're relying on him to do anything but have the world's most punchable face while dominating the ball and getting mercilessly hunted in the playoffs.

Outside of one great series against a flawed Knicks team and being in the building while Ben Simmons and the Sixers imploded, this guy has done nothing but lose. He's the ultimate empty calories guy that this front office should avoid like the plague. Not to mention the off the court stuff... bad teammate, bad dude, just about the anti-Spur in every way.

I tend to have your same wiew... I don't want Young but expecially at a high draft picks price. I didn't like DjM too but a point in his favor is he already knows the system and some of the players, and that before Wemby he was already improving as a playmaker and shooter... So, if his relationship with Pop and the FO is still good, he could be seen as a more than decent fit with our current personnel...

[objective]

New Locked On Hawks episodes dropped, 2 part episode with a long time recurring guest

Summary:

--- Trae Young isn't getting traded, anyone who knows the market knows he's not going anywhere. On top of that, Young is completely bought in to the team and coach, and his entire approach, demeanor, and defensive improvements reflect how much he's committed to the Hawks. Even if he asks out they're not trading him for at least a season. ---

Listen for yourselves if you want, but I have always found the LoH host to be fair and level headed.

[exstatic]

i’m under the impression he’s never tried out for team usa? kinda surprising.

i wonder how many interactions he and pop have had.

You don’t actually try out, you get invited. Up until the Tokyo games, that would have been on Jerry Colangelo. Grant Hill now holds that position.

[rankingtear]

this will keep happening to potential targets. We need to make trades.



you clearly haven't watched the Hawks. Young is far from being the main problem on the defensive end for that team. He plays with 3 starters who are worse than him on defense. He's first in TO created in crunch time in the NBA. He's 11th in steals per game. He's one of the best at drawing charges and the Hawks don't bench him when they need stops. This ain't Malaki Branham we are talking about.
He is the main problem, they are hiding him and he is being hunted. Look at his matchup data you would have trouble finding a good offense guy there, then look at how many shots he contest on how those players shoot 5 percent better than their average, which puts him 2nd worst on his team.

[Dejounte]

He is the main problem, they are hiding him and he is being hunted. Look at his matchup data you would have trouble finding a good offense guy there, then look at how many shots he contest on how those players shoot 5 percent better than their average, which puts him 2nd worst on his team.

Isn’t this a good thing? That the opposing team’s worst offensive player is matched up against Trae and are shooting more shots than regular? You’d rather be beat by the opposing team’s role players vs their star players.

[John B]

I’d wait for the draft first. I hope the Spurs get two lottery picks and use one of them on a Point Guard like Topic, and bring a vet PG like CoJo back as a reserve. I think Trae is not a long term answer, and will get hunted for his lack of defense comes playoff. I know TP was not the tallest but he played defense with passion. And back then they had Kawhi, Green, Ginobili, stellar defenders. Vassell, Keldon need to step up their defense. I’m also rooting for Blake to improve much. So someone like CoJo who knows the system, a great locker room guy and wouldn’t mind coming off the bench.

[rankingtear]

Isn’t this a good thing? That the opposing team’s worst offensive player is matched up against Trae and are shooting more shots than regular? You’d rather be beat by the opposing team’s role players vs their star players.

No these are guards shooting 50 from the field, nullifies your rim protection. The matchup also indicates he is not switching so the teamates who you genius think are worst than him are in constant recovery mode.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

People like you are impossible to discuss with.
Concerns about his fit and defense are fair, but when you start talking about punchable face and ridiculous stuff like bad teammate and dude I can't take your post seriously.

Was Parker a good dude and teammate?
Was Bowen an epitome of sportsmanship?
Was Kawhi a true Spur?

Stop with the nonsense, Timmy isn't walking back through that door.

The punchable face line was a joke, albeit accurate. The other stuff about his being a bad teammate is 100% accurate. And by bad teammate, I mean that he's a selfish, me-first toxic dude. Say what you will about Parker's indiscretions and Bruce being a dirty player, they always put the game first. They didn't take their own flights home and spar with the GM. They didn't get in fights with the coach and no-show a game. They didn't get multiple coaches and GM's fired. They didn't try to overflex their power in the organization. So you can say that I'm impossible to discuss with, but this is not nonsense at all. These are real data points in determining how a player is going to fit into your culture. I'm not making this crap up, btw. You are out of your freaking mind if want this prima donna within 100 miles of a young, impressionable Wemby.

https://fansided.com/2023/03/05/nba-rumors-trae-young-toxic-locker-room/


tell me you're a hater without telling me you're a hater
Oh, I'm definitely a Trae Young hater. I will tell you that straight up. There's no beating around the bush here or saying something without saying it. I hate everything about the guy except his offensive production.

[LeBowen]

And by bad teammate, I mean that he's a selfish, me-first toxic dude.

Well, he's averaging just one FGA more than DJ, despite being a way better scorer and playmaker.


They didn't get multiple coaches and GM's fired.

Because Hakws are a reputable organization that always had the right people and made the right moves?
Lloyd was a rookie coach obviously out of his depth.
McMillan's every single job ended with reports of locker room turning against him.
If reports of Trae having issues with Synder start, then we might be onto something.


These are real data points in determining how a player is going to fit into your culture.

And what is our culture right now?
Instagram Baller Always Complaining Was Spurs Culture?
Wife-beater Forbes was Spurs culture?
Exhibitionist Primo was Spurs culture?

Our culture has gone to shit and everything that has happened since the summer of 2017 is the best possible argument for Timmy's GOAT case.
Idk about you, but to me it looks like he was holding the entire franchise together.

There are legitimate concerns about Trae's character and fit, but I'd rather take a gamble on one of the best playmakers in the league than watch another couple of seasons with a roster full of supposedly nice-guy, charity cases while Victor gets progressively more frustrated.

[Mr. Body]

And what is our culture right now?
Instagram Baller Always Complaining Was Spurs Culture?
Wife-beater Forbes was Spurs culture?
Exhibitionist Primo was Spurs culture?


Bruh, whatever your points are, this is idiotic. I'll let you think about each of those items and hope you realize what you got seriously wrong here.

Man are people so pent up with their Trae masturbation they're not thinking straight.

[LeBowen]

Bruh, whatever your points are, this is idiotic. I'll let you think about each of those items and hope you realize what you got seriously wrong here.

Man are people so pent up with their Trae masturbation they're not thinking straight.

My point is that it's hillarious how people with no insight about what's actually going on are always so quick to form their opinion on player personalities.

I've said my opinion on Trae many times.
He's not an ideal solution, but he's the best point guard Spurs will be able to trade for in foreseeable future.
Drafting a rookie point guard would mean another year or two of mediocrity because it's the hardest position to develop.
Getting someone average like Tyus Jones would mean we still need a primary creator since Devin's playmaking skills are non-existant.

From basketball standpoint, it's obvious that Trae is a bad defender and we'd need to adjust, but our roster without Wemby is easily the worst in the league and all of them are expendable.
This will be fifth straight year in the lottery and it's the second longest streak after Charlotte.
Wemby won't wait forever and Trae is a perfect offensive partner for him if he accepts that he's not the franchise player.

If we talk price, I wouldn't give up more than their three picks, Keldon+Collins. Or one of their picks, Devin+Collins.
I'd even be open to taking Capela's expiring if they want all three of them. But if Spurs keep one of Hawks picks.

Instead, in here people are so biased in potential trades and expect that we'll trade for an all-star with two picks and garbage players. Won't happen.
Spurs own picks should be off the table unless it's a legit superstar trade, others should be available. We don't even have enough space on the roster for all those rookies.
And even if we did, Spurs drafting has been nothing short of atrocious as of late.

Samanic, Primo, Wesley, Branham are all busts.
Keldon was a success considering his draft position, but right now he's just an easily moveable asset for salary matching.
Devin is solid enough, even though we missed on better players. But his extension is doing him no favors. Won't be a good contract if he doesn't improve.
Jury is still out on Jeremy, but we obviously missed out on better players.

So what makes you think Brian Wright and co. are capable of striking gold in the draft?
Days of Spurs pulling all-time greats out of their ass are long gone.

[thiste]

https://twitter.com/RealPjHoops/status/1759987026147835920

[exstatic]

https://twitter.com/RealPjHoops/status/1759987026147835920

Aw,how sweet. Trae’s wearing his letter jacket. :lol

[z0sa]

Aw,how sweet. Trae’s wearing his letter jacket. :lol

:lol that's actually hilarious. And awesome. I genuinely get the vibe that Trae likes Wemby and wants him to do well, if not outright play on the same squad.

[spurraider21]

Trae is pretty bad near the rim tbh

1760017809419985317

1760000501469282508

1759789413783990585

[exstatic]

Trae is pretty bad near the rim tbh

1760017809419985317

1760000501469282508

1759789413783990585

Devin Vassell is at 71.7% 0-3 feet, but go on ST about how he can’t finish.

[spurraider21]

Devin Vassell is at 71.7% 0-3 feet, but go on ST about how he can’t finish.
i dont think vassell's issue is finishing at the rim, it's getting to the rim. only about 15% of his FGA come within 3 feet

his overall efficiency has been fine despite that, he's just not hitting as many of his 3's that you want to see, mostly because of a handful of absolutely dreadful games that have dragged him down

[Leetonidas]

Devin Vassell is at 71.7% 0-3 feet, but go on ST about how he can’t finish.

Uh the criticism of Vassell was that he can't create good looks and often takes very difficult shots. No one said he couldn't make a layup:lol why do y'all always feel the need to purposely distort arguments

[LeBowen]

Trae is bad at the rim because of his physical limitations and foul baiting.
Stats at the rim would look much better for him if fouls were included.

Maxey and Fox also have less than 50% on floaters.

You guys have to realize that if he was a perfect player, Spurs would have no chance of getting him because he'd be untouchable.
MVP level players rarely get traded before they're close to their 30s.

[ambchang]

I’m shocked at how much worse scoot is than everybody else. I mean yikes.

[Mr. Body]

Aw,how sweet. Trae’s wearing his letter jacket. :lol

How nice to wear the letters of the future Las Vegas Spurs.

[ginobilized]

All this hoopla around Trae Young makes me think that this will never happen. That's not the Spurs way, for better or worse. I'm ready to be underwhelmed, again.

This is a very important free agency and draft as we rebuild. My guess is that the moves will be the typical Spursian type of the past decade or so. Cam Reddish/Luke Kennard and drafting Salaun while missing out on Toronto's pick and not addressing the PG position.
I'm also on Day 2 of no caffeine, so, ya know. Maybe this is seasonal depression.

[Mr. Body]

All this hoopla around Trae Young makes me think that this will never happen. That's not the Spurs way, for better or worse. I'm ready to be underwhelmed, again.


The Spurs aren't going to trade for Trae Young. People are just bored.

[spurraider21]

1760051846343983209

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGz0_x-bcAAI7kY?format=png&name=900x900

[scott]

Trae Young/Dejounte Murray talk is just a smokescreen for us to trade for Patty Mills tbh

[scott]

1760051846343983209

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGz0_x-bcAAI7kY?format=png&name=900x900

Breaking this into tiers, it's basically saying Luka and Hali are in their own league, Trae, Book, Steph and Harden are in the next tier.

[exstatic]

1760051846343983209

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGz0_x-bcAAI7kY?format=png&name=900x900

:lol Sharpe and Scoot. And people think our FO can’t draft worth a crap. That’s a #3 and #6 pick ready to flush.

[timtonymanu]

All this hoopla around Trae Young makes me think that this will never happen. That's not the Spurs way, for better or worse. I'm ready to be underwhelmed, again.

This is a very important free agency and draft as we rebuild. My guess is that the moves will be the typical Spursian type of the past decade or so. Cam Reddish/Luke Kennard and drafting Salaun while missing out on Toronto's pick and not addressing the PG position.
I'm also on Day 2 of no caffeine, so, ya know. Maybe this is seasonal depression.

That would be awful moves. We have a generational talent. Maybe it’s the spurs way that they lose out on big trades/free agent talent But they better not use that excuse to not try to be aggressive in trading for him. Signing the Zach Collins and Bryn Forbes of the world won’t make Wemby stick around.

[Mr. Body]

:lol Sharpe and Scoot. And people think our FO can’t draft worth a crap. That’s a #3 and #6 pick ready to flush.

I get a little laugh whenever people talk about Portland's core of Scoot and Sharpe. I believe more in Scoot. He has a lot to go, but at least he competes. Sharpe is already ducking out of playing as much as he can. (What a surprise.)

[Ariel]

:lol Sharpe and Scoot. And people think our FO can’t draft worth a crap. That’s a #3 and #6 pick ready to flush.
But he's athletic! he has burst!

[CGD]

Trae Young/Dejounte Murray talk is just a smokescreen for us to trade for Patty Mills tbh

TBQH IMO, sir

[TimmehC]

Trae would help with Vassell as much as he would help Wemby.

[tbdog]

I think this Trae rumour is legit. Spurs usually don't leak. The LMA rumour wasn't this obvious.

[Spursfanfromafar]

This chart doesn't consider defense. If we took that into account, folks like Derrick White, Donte Divincenzo and Desmond Bane become enormously valuable.

[Kevin]

I think Young becomes a Spur over the summer. It makes too much sense for everyone. Refund the DJM pick plus Keldon.

Young will generate ton of open looks for Dev and easy lobs for Wemby. Perfect fit on offense because Young is an elite on ball player so the off ball concerns are overstated.

[couchman]

Spurs usually don’t leak, but if they actually want Trae it might benefit them to get the rumor mill swirling.
More rumors is more likely to get Young to eventually make a trade demand and increase Spurs leverage.
All that being said, I’d be surprised if we pull the trigger.

[exstatic]

Spurs usually don’t leak, but if they actually want Trae it might benefit them to get the rumor mill swirling.
More rumors is more likely to get Young to eventually make a trade demand and increase Spurs leverage.
All that being said, I’d be surprised if we pull the trigger.

ATL leaked it to gin up some interest.

[DAF86]

I think Young becomes a Spur over the summer. It makes too much sense for everyone. Refund the DJM pick plus Keldon.

Young will generate ton of open looks for Dev and easy lobs for Wemby. Perfect fit on offense because Young is an elite on ball player so the off ball concerns are overstated.

That would be an awful trade for us.

[lefty]

Trae Young/Dejounte Murray talk is just a smokescreen for us to trade for Patty Mills tbh
Ah Patty. the Spurs GOAT pg tbh
Up there with Claxton

[The Truth #6]

The advantage to this rumor going around for the Spurs is that it hopefully lowers his trade value, but there's no easy answer how this will play out. Just doesn't seem like a Brian Wright type move

[mo7888]

https://theathletic.com/5288376/2024/02/21/giannis-antetokounmpo-interview-bucks-nba-damian-lillard-doc-rivers/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=twhq&source=twitterhq

One more disgruntled star will be coming to the market sooner than most think..

[Mr. Body]

https://theathletic.com/5288376/2024/02/21/giannis-antetokounmpo-interview-bucks-nba-damian-lillard-doc-rivers/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=twhq&source=twitterhq

One more disgruntled star will be coming to the market sooner than most think..

This is why the FO wants to avoid "expensive mistakes." Expensive can mean costing a lot in terms of assets. It can mean costing a lot in terms of fit and things not working out. For example, getting Trae Young could cost important draft picks and he still may not be a good teammate or work on the floor.

It can also mean costly in terms of what can no longer do because you already put your chips in. Opportunity cost.

[mo7888]

This is why the FO wants to avoid "expensive mistakes." Expensive can mean costing a lot in terms of assets. It can mean costing a lot in terms of fit and things not working out. For example, getting Trae Young could cost important draft picks and he still may not be a good teammate or work on the floor.

It can also mean costly in terms of what can no longer do because you already put your chips in. Opportunity cost.

I agree. Opportunity cost is a very real thing....

[heyheymymy]

our favorite Derrick White just on the outskirts of the quadrant of wow

[Dverde]

I can’t see the Spurs the Hawk’s ransom. I don’t think Pop will allow Vassell to be in the trade.

[manufan10]

https://preview.redd.it/mdr7myd38kjc1.jpeg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&da31f8c6


itshappening.gif





:lol

[Frenchfred]

https://theathletic.com/5288376/2024/02/21/giannis-antetokounmpo-interview-bucks-nba-damian-lillard-doc-rivers/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=twhq&source=twitterhq

One more disgruntled star will be coming to the market sooner than most think..

I don't see Giannis leaving this summer even if they don't pass the first round. He'll stick at least another year.

[scott]

I also don't see Giannis leaving, but Wemby + Giannis would be truly amazing.

With that said, if - by some weird confluence of fates - Giannis did come here, that would put Wemby in a #2 position for at least 2-5 more years. Would Spurs fans be interested in that? If it delivered 3 rings in that span, would it matter? Curious how people would feel about that kind of direction.

[ginobilized]

IF the Spurs did trade for Young, what would the draft look like? Would we still draft a PG?
Would Trae, #3 and #7 picks provide the foundation for the future?

[Harry Callahan]

Just can't get on board with a smallish guard like TY. The Hawks missed out on the chance for Luka D, and spit the bit. They blew it five years ago. I would not bail the Hawks out for their error.

[Atl Spur]

Just can't get on board with a smallish guard like TY. The Hawks missed out on the chance for Luka D, and spit the bit. They blew it five years ago. I would not bail the Hawks out for their error.

I agree being we own them like I told these dudes here in Atlanta��

[couchman]

IF the Spurs did trade for Young, what would the draft look like? Would we still draft a PG?
Would Trae, #3 and #7 picks provide the foundation for the future?

If we trade for Young then I expect we'd target a wing player in the draft unless the best-player-available is way ahead of everyone else on our board.

[MultiTroll]

I also don't see Giannis leaving, but Wemby + Giannis would be truly amazing.

With that said, if - by some weird confluence of fates - Giannis did come here, that would put Wemby in a #2 position for at least 2-5 more years. Would Spurs fans be interested in that? If it delivered 3 rings in that span, would it matter? Curious how people would feel about that kind of direction.
Wama passes Greek Freak in Wamas 3rd season imo.
Altho Popped could still be completely screwing him up at that point.

Regardless, hell yes i would take Wama as #2 while scoring 3 Championships.

[z0sa]

I also don't see Giannis leaving, but Wemby + Giannis would be truly amazing.

With that said, if - by some weird confluence of fates - Giannis did come here, that would put Wemby in a #2 position for at least 2-5 more years. Would Spurs fans be interested in that? If it delivered 3 rings in that span, would it matter? Curious how people would feel about that kind of direction.

Only the truly insane, and your average ST PATFO-lover (blinders included with every post) would pass on that. It'd be like Showtime on steroids. If we could hold on to Sochan, there's our James Worthy.

[Dex]

Just can't get on board with a smallish guard like TY. The Hawks missed out on the chance for Luka D, and spit the bit. They blew it five years ago. I would not bail the Hawks out for their error.

Same.

Yes, Young looks amazing compared to anything else we have on the roster, but I've always felt his game is overrated.

I wouldn't consider him one of the "dream pairings" that we could pick up to go beside Wemby, and you only get so many chances to make big moves like that.

[tonight...you]

How nice to wear the letters of the future Las Vegas Spurs.
Don't you put that evil on me Ricky Body!

[Biggems]

I listen to the morning huddle on 94.1 and Rob Thompson and RJ Ochoa keep bringing up Lebron signing with us next season on a one or two year deal. I am not a fan of Lebron at all. I do not believe it would ever happen, and if it did, how I would actually feel about it.

What are y'all's thoughts on the matter?

[couchman]

My thoughts are that this lineup makes the playoffs, but they probably slow Wemby’s development a bit.

Trae Young
Vassell
Sochan
LeBron
Wemby

[Rubberducky]

Lebron :lol

[Knoxxx]

https://www.si.com/nba/spurs/news/san-antonio-spurs-free-agency-rumors-sign-paul-george-los-angeles-clippers-victor-wembanyama

George
Lebron
Jrue Holiday

[spurraider21]

i mean george would be amazing but i dont see it

he's basically everything and anything you'd want from a modern SF. great, switchable defense. lethal outside shot. good athlete. very good handler and passer, etc.

i still cant believe we traded him back in the day

[CGD]

https://www.si.com/nba/spurs/news/san-antonio-spurs-free-agency-rumors-sign-paul-george-los-angeles-clippers-victor-wembanyama

George
Lebron
Jrue Holiday

All the garbage narrative so George gets his Balmer to PAY him.

[Knoxxx]

Imagine getting all 3 with LeBron on a minimum salary deal.

Will add, Holiday or Shrader seem like PGs we’d like. Pesky veteran ballers.

[Pauleta14]

Imagine being a Spurs fan and wanting Lebron...

[SpursBills]

i mean george would be amazing but i dont see it

he's basically everything and anything you'd want from a modern SF. great, switchable defense. lethal outside shot. good athlete. very good handler and passer, etc.

i still cant believe we traded him back in the day

:lol

But in all seriousness, in the unlikely event that he doesn't resign with the clippers, 76ers make by far the most sense for him

[Kevin]

If PG3 was turning 29 next season instead of 34 I'd be all over signing him and trading for Trea. Big three would be set plus a top 4 pick this year. Alas PG3 is too old.

[Barfunk]

Imagine being a Spurs fan and wanting Lebron...

Lebron would still be a good player to have, even at his age. With that said, I don't think he would come here even if we drafted Bronny. He thinks he's too big for the Spurs.

[poopbox]

Same.

Yes, Young looks amazing compared to anything else we have on the roster, but I've always felt his game is overrated.

I wouldn't consider him one of the "dream pairings" that we could pick up to go beside Wemby, and you only get so many chances to make big moves like that.

Wait for a "dream" pairing, and you won't get any chances to make a big move.

Whoever the "dream" player is that we should pair with Wemby...he probably on another team and that team is probably not interested in trading that player to the spurs under any conditions

[Seventyniner]

https://www.si.com/nba/spurs/news/san-antonio-spurs-free-agency-rumors-sign-paul-george-los-angeles-clippers-victor-wembanyama

George
Lebron
Jrue Holiday

SI quoting Bleacher Report now. smfh


Due to this, Bleacher Report (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10109435-every-nba-teams-top-3-targets-in-2024-free-agency) paired George with the Spurs on its list of top-three free agent targets for each team in the league. Los Angeles Lakers (https://www.si.com/nba/lakers/) star LeBron James and Boston Celtics (https://www.si.com/nba/celtics/) guard Jrue Holiday were the other two players listed for the Spurs.

This part is also laughable.


However, as he continues through his 14th season in the NBA, George could be nearing the end of his career and likely won't want to wait around for an opportunity at a championship if the Clippers come up short once again this season.

In what universe could the Spurs be a stronger title threat than the Clips next season?

I guess if the Spurs draft Bronny and get daddy to sign, trade for Young, and get PG13 to sign too then that's a strong contender. Moreso than the Clips who would be without PG13 themselves. But that's one hell of a parlay.

[TimmyBuckets]

The same whiners that want a star next to Wemby don't want Trae? What exactly is it that you dweebs want then? You shit on the young guys like Vassell and Sochan, but don't want a young star like Trae. There's no winning with some fans. They love to hate or love to be contrarians. What market do you think your team is in? Don't act like Wemby is going to make San Antonio into LA. SA doesn't get the opportunity to get big names like Trae. If Spurs don't do all they can to get Trae, the same haters that bag on Trae are gonna blame the organization for not getting him. If they do get Trae, these morons are still gonna whine.

[RC_Drunkford]

The same whiners that want a star next to Wemby don't want Trae? What exactly is it that you dweebs want then? You shit on the young guys like Vassell and Sochan, but don't want a young star like Trae. There's no winning with some fans. They love to hate or love to be contrarians. What market do you think your team is in? Don't act like Wemby is going to make San Antonio into LA. SA doesn't get the opportunity to get big names like Trae. If Spurs don't do all they can to get Trae, the same haters that bag on Trae are gonna blame the organization for not getting him. If they do get Trae, these morons are still gonna whine.

they want players that don't exist and mediocre role players.

[tbdog]

ST emphasis weakness.

[Knoxxx]

Young is fine, he can outscore the other teams PG and gets 10 assists per game. We should also add AD from Lakers as the 2nd twin tower.

[Knoxxx]

SI quoting Bleacher Report now. smfh



This part is also laughable.



In what universe could the Spurs be a stronger title threat than the Clips next season?

I guess if the Spurs draft Bronny and get daddy to sign, trade for Young, and get PG13 to sign too then that's a strong contender. Moreso than the Clips who would be without PG13 themselves. But that's one hell of a parlay.

Seems pretty obvious that the author was merely pulling shit out of his ass, just like we all are re Spurs free agent adds.

Not sure why what anyone pulls out of their ass is any better than someone else’s though. Thus, I have undermined the entire premise of your post simply because I am bored waiting for a flight.

Edit: my bad I see you had some other substantive points and you were merely dismissing the source out of a sense of obligation.

[exstatic]

Young is fine, he can outscore the other teams PG and gets 10 assists per game. We should also add AD from Lakers as the 2nd twin tower.

Why do you want someone who is more brittle than Kawhi?

[Knoxxx]

Why do you want someone who is more brittle than Kawhi?

I want someone that gets 20-12-2.5 next to Wemby, that’s the concept, rather than a man crush on AD. He was merely an example. We need to finish closing off the paint, one shot blocker can’t do that by himself.

[Seventyniner]

Edit: my bad I see you had some other substantive points and you were merely dismissing the source out of a sense of obligation.

I just didn't realize that SI had stooped to the level of basing an article on some shit Bleacher Report threw at the wall.

[Frenchfred]

The same whiners that want a star next to Wemby don't want Trae? What exactly is it that you dweebs want then? You shit on the young guys like Vassell and Sochan, but don't want a young star like Trae. There's no winning with some fans. They love to hate or love to be contrarians. What market do you think your team is in? Don't act like Wemby is going to make San Antonio into LA. SA doesn't get the opportunity to get big names like Trae. If Spurs don't do all they can to get Trae, the same haters that bag on Trae are gonna blame the organization for not getting him. If they do get Trae, these morons are still gonna whine.

then the question is can a trio of Young, Vassel and Wemby win a championship ? Because they’ll take pretty much the entire salary cap when you resign Young and Wemby to max contracts

[MultiTroll]

then the question is can a trio of Young, Vassel and Wemby win a championship ? Because they’ll take pretty much the entire salary cap when you resign Young and Wemby to max contracts
Answer is no.

Short of some Manu GNob 6th man Robert Horry+ bench guys no way.

[objective]

then the question is can a trio of Young, Vassel and Wemby win a championship ? Because they’ll take pretty much the entire salary cap when you resign Young and Wemby to max contracts

As long as they're starting Champagnie, and playing scrubs in the regular rotation like Zollins, Osman, Branham etc ... It wouldn't matter who the big 3 are.

Those are cement shoes that no one could overcome

[Kevin]

As long as they're starting Champagnie, and playing scrubs in the regular rotation like Zollins, Osman, Branham etc ... It wouldn't matter who the big 3 are.

Those are cement shoes that no one could overcome

Dev's not a third star so no. He cannot generate open shot's for himself or others and doesn't get to the line. He's a star dependent player who will benefit greatly from Young's playing making.

[Mr. Body]

Vassell would be phenomenal as a third threat. Any team would love him.

[Rubberducky]

Our beloved Trae Young takes on the raptors in a few minutes.

[CorrectCrusader]

All of you who are anti-trae are on my shit list, how the fuck can you watch our current team and not only not want a surfire star, but trust our shitty ass GM to draft well to surround wemby.

[Ariel]

All of you who are anti-trae are on my shit list, how the fuck can you watch our current team and not only not want a surfire star, but trust our shitty ass GM to draft well to surround wemby.
You picked the wrong day to pimp Trae: 11 points (on 4/13 FG, 2/6 3P) and 4 TO in 35 min.

[CorrectCrusader]

You picked the wrong day to pimp Trae: 11 points (on 4/13 FG, 2/6 3P) and 4 TO in 35 min.

Those stats would still be better than any of the other trashcans we have on this roster

[itzsoweezee]

Just heard on a podcast that Trae is eligible for extension the summer of 2025, for up to $60M per year ��

[Mr. Body]

Those stats would still be better than any of the other trashcans we have on this roster

Why don't you shoot yourself or find another team? We'd all be better off.

[Blizzardwizard]

Trae Young's Trae Young but a Brian Wright draft pick could be anything... It could even be a Trae Young!

You know how much we've wanted one of those!

Then let's jus-

We'll take the draft pick.

[CorrectCrusader]

Why don't you shoot yourself or find another team? We'd all be better off.

I'll kill myself when you do it first bum.

[rankingtear]

Trae Young's Trae Young but a Brian Wright draft pick could be anything... It could even be a Trae Young!

You know how much we've wanted one of those!

Then let's jus-

We'll take the draft pick.

Is Trae also making 5 mil for 4 years.

[Frenchfred]

Just heard on a podcast that Trae is eligible for extension the summer of 2025, for up to $60M per year ��

that’s the main reason why the Spurs shouldn’t go after him. Salary cap will probably be around 145 millions. Wemby will command about the same and with Vassel’s salary, the Spurs will be over the cap and probably 20 millions under the first epron.

[scott]

Trae's salary has been discussed previously in this thread, but not necessarily in terms of the salary cap ramifications.

Re: Tre's salary - projecting out into the future the issue starts when Wemby's Rookie Supermax kicks in, and you get into the 70%+ range for these 3 guys.

If we project the cap table out and make a few assumptions (detailed below), then things look like this:



Year
Cap
Young 35%
Young 30%
Wemby
Devin
% of Cap Trae35%
% of Cap Trae30%


2024
141.0
43.0
43.3
12.8
29.3
60.4
60.4


2025
155.1
46.0
46.0
13.4
27.0
55.7
55.7


2026
170.6
59.7
51.2
16.9
27.0
60.7
55.7


2027
187.7
64.5
55.3
56.3
24.6
77.5
72.6


2028
206.4
69.6
59.7
60.8
27.0
76.3
71.5


2029
227.1
75.2
64.5
65.7
37.8
78.7
74.0


2030
249.8
81.2
69.6
70.9
40.8
77.3
72.6


2031
274.8
44.1
44.1
76.6
44.1
60.0
60.0



Some key assumptions:


Assumed the cap will go up by the max 10%/year starting in 2025
Assumed that Trae will earn a max extension with 8% raises that kicks in starting in 2026. But you can see the impact that 35% v 30% creates.
Assumed Wemby will get the 30% rookie SuperMax with 8% raises (this is likely the safest assumption of them all)
Assumed Devin balls out and earns a 140% extension with 8% raises when his rookie extension ends
Assumed that when Trae's extension ends, and he'll be entering his 13th season, that he'll have fallen off a little and will sign a similar contract to Devin's 2031 number


I don't know how these "Big 3" percentages of the cap compare to other teams or if this is manageable or completely hamstringing. Of course, the Spurs will have lots of other players who hopefully will have blossomed and earned big contracts during this time with all these picks.

I don't have any opinion on this at this time, other than to say... this is going to be the case if we go after any Star player via trade.

[baseline bum]

that’s the main reason why the Spurs shouldn’t go after him. Salary cap will probably be around 145 millions. Wemby will command about the same and with Vassel’s salary, the Spurs will be over the cap and probably 20 millions under the first epron.

2025-26 is when the new TV and streaming deal will kick in so $60 million might not look prohibitive then like it does under the current TV deal. Plus the NBA will do cap smoothing so there won't be a huge jump in the cap for 25-26 that would make the Spurs have to pay even more for him.

[BatManu20]

Vassell would be fine as a 3rd option imo, so long as he continues to improve and becomes more consistent (consistency being the key aspect here). Big "if" there obviously, but he's still only 23 and is likely 4-5 years away from his prime. Wemby + Trae or another All-Star caliber player with Vassell as the third option would likely be Championship caliber in 3-4 years contingent upon the Spurs surrounding those 3 with solid veteran role players who can shoot and/or defend. Guys like KD and Paul George, who will be in their late 30's by then and in the twilight of their careers, might be willing to jump on the train as role players in hopes of capturing a ring before they retire.

[baseline bum]

Trae's salary has been discussed previously in this thread, but not necessarily in terms of the salary cap ramifications.

Re: Tre's salary - projecting out into the future the issue starts when Wemby's Rookie Supermax kicks in, and you get into the 70%+ range for these 3 guys.

If we project the cap table out and make a few assumptions (detailed below), then things look like this:



Year
Cap
Young 35%
Young 30%
Wemby
Devin
% of Cap Trae35%
% of Cap Trae30%


2024
141.0
43.0
43.3
12.8
29.3
60.4
60.4


2025
155.1
46.0
46.0
13.4
27.0
55.7
55.7


2026
170.6
59.7
51.2
16.9
27.0
60.7
55.7


2027
187.7
64.5
55.3
56.3
24.6
77.5
72.6


2028
206.4
69.6
59.7
60.8
27.0
76.3
71.5


2029
227.1
75.2
64.5
65.7
37.8
78.7
74.0


2030
249.8
81.2
69.6
70.9
40.8
77.3
72.6


2031
274.8
44.1
44.1
76.6
44.1
60.0
60.0



Some key assumptions:


Assumed the cap will go up by the max 10%/year starting in 2025
Assumed that Trae will earn a max extension with 8% raises that kicks in starting in 2026. But you can see the impact that 35% v 30% creates.
Assumed Wemby will get the 30% rookie SuperMax with 8% raises (this is likely the safest assumption of them all)
Assumed Devin balls out and earns a 140% extension with 8% raises when his rookie extension ends
Assumed that when Trae's extension ends, and he'll be entering his 13th season, that he'll have fallen off a little and will sign a similar contract to Devin's 2031 number


I don't know how these "Big 3" percentages of the cap compare to other teams or if this is manageable or completely hamstringing. Of course, the Spurs will have lots of other players who hopefully will have blossomed and earned big contracts during this time with all these picks.

I don't have any opinion on this at this time, other than to say... this is going to be the case if we go after any Star player via trade.

Is Young 35% eligible next summer? If you qualify for Supermax once like he did in 2021 are you grandfathered in for life? Or would he only be eligible for the max of 30% for 7 year's service and 105% of his previous year's salary as a base salary for 25?

[Mr. Body]

The TV deals will be worse than expected, I fear. The media landscape is changing and not to the benefit of the cap.

[scott]

Is Young 35% eligible next summer? If you qualify for Supermax once like he did in 2021 are you grandfathered in for life? Or would he only be eligible for the max of 30% for 7 year's service and 105% of his previous year's salary as a base salary for 25?

I don't think he is grandfathered into the SuperMax. He will need to make an all-NBA team next season to qualify for the SuperMax. I posted this early in discussing his contract, but it may actually be in his interest to opt of of the last year of his deal and only sign a two year extension which will take him into his 10th season, when he can get 35% based on years of service.

If not, then my understanding is that he'll only be eligible for a 30% extension. I assumed in the chart that his bird rights transfer, but I'm actually not sure of that either, because I saw somewhere that for your Bird rights to stay in tact you have to be traded by a certain point in your career, which has passed. I do not believe his deal can exceed 30% of the cap unless he hits the SuperMax criteria.

[scott]

The TV deals will be worse than expected, I fear. The media landscape is changing and not to the benefit of the cap.

I think it will be interesting to see if Apple/Amazon/Google all goin in big to take over LeaguePass... that is where I think the league could squeeze out some extra billions in addition to the whatever other TV deals they strike.

[RC_Drunkford]

60-70% for Wemby, Trae and Vassell is a good number. That would leave you with another 60 million in cap space for 24/25 and even more later on. Sochan's extension will play a role here too, but the Spurs would basically still have room to offer another player 25-30% if they want to be top heavy and we're not even talking about going over the cap.

[gambit1990]

hopefully the spurs interest in murray was a ruse to target trae.

[BatManu20]

1761823725521867096

[mo7888]

1761823725521867096

I'm curious to see what this does to Atl in the rankings. Currently at 10, but only 3 games ahead of Toronto.

[BacktoBasics]

I'm curious to see what this does to Atl in the rankings. Currently at 10, but only 3 games ahead of Toronto.
We definitely need another team to drop below Toronto for some cushion.

[onechance87]

We definitely need another team to drop below Toronto for some cushion.

we dont them to fall to much...We dont want them to get a top 6 pick and have
a better team next year.

[exstatic]

we dont them to fall to much...We dont want them to get a top 6 pick and have
a better team next year.

In terms of the lottery rankings, I think he means “fall” as in drop from #7 to 8 or 9 in the end of season rankings. That reduces their chances at a top 4 pick.

[Dejounte]

This is good because it pushes Toronto’s pick chances out of the top 6.

[exstatic]

1761823725521867096

Sucks for him, and will likely knock him out of All NBA eligibility by way of not playing 65 games. He’s at 51 now, but a month out of action shaves his margin down to basically zero.

[objective]

It's also a chance for Dejounte to shine.

Which could mean a lot of things.

If Dejounte shines and they go streaking, the chatter will be that they should trade Young and go with Dejounte. Or it could be that Dejounte's value will go up and they can get more for him in a trade.

[Mr. Body]

Too bad the hand thing wasn't next year instead.

[spurraider21]

He just wants to make sure he begins his career as a spurs as healthy as possible

[manufan10]

He just wants to make sure he begins his career as a spurs as healthy as possible

CIA Trae :lol

[couchman]

So Hawks tanking now?
I’ve been thinking for a while that this is a good year for them to tank while they still own their own pick.
There’s no way Trae would get this done now if they were in contention.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a good initial surge without Trae but ultimately they are worse off by a lot without him.

[exstatic]

So Hawks tanking now?
I’ve been thinking for a while that this is a good year for them to tank while they still own their own pick.
There’s no way Trae would get this done now if they were in contention.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a good initial surge without Trae but ultimately they are worse off by a lot without him.

They may just be giving DJ the keys for a test drive, and to maybe increase his value.

[objective]

Seems like Okongwu is also missing at least 2 more weeks, that could make a big difference

[objective]

Dejounte in the 4th with 25, 9, and 10 with a double digit lead on Orlando.

Only a matter of time until ST's Young Squad turn into Dejounte Truthers

[Mr. Body]

Dejounte in the 4th with 25, 9, and 10 with a double digit lead on Orlando.

Only a matter of time until ST's Young Squad turn into Dejounte Truthers

I'd much rather trade for Murray than Young.

[Frenchfred]

I'd much rather trade for Murray than Young.

same here. That would leave enough money to go after some decent role players

[spurraider21]

I’d be fine with either, understanding the Murray would be the cheaper option both with respect to trade compensation and salary

[Pauleta14]

Trae seems to have some connections with Wemby, they have the same personnal coach and apparently Trae is with LV too

[gambit1990]

It's also a chance for Dejounte to shine.

[gambit1990]

So Hawks tanking now?
the hawks lucked out.