There is Markannen to Spurs Buzz

[z0sa]

Why not give up Vassell, dudes a chucker? People are acting like he's our future, he's not

In my humble opinion, Vassell is the only guy (besides Wemby which should go without saying) who is (currently) untradeable on the roster. He could easily be the best 3rd option of any team in the League, provided we had someone who could be a clear cut #2. He's never going to be Manu, and I don't know why some posters here want to force that role on him. He's better as our primary-secondary playmaker, someone who takes what Wemby and (x) give him, which will be lots of wide open three's and drives on kickouts.

He was a lot better than guys like Sochan passing to Wemby, but he took too many dribbles too often. He needs to be a catch and shoot or catch, 1-2 dribble and penetrate or kickout again type of guy. JMO

[spursparker9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwzdN8uAtE

[Degoat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwzdN8uAtE

Wasn’t really aware that OKC has their 2025 Pick (top 10 protected) they really do need to bottom out next year

[spurraider21]

if markkanen waits until august 7 to renegotiate, he wont be eligible to be traded during the season either

[LeBowen]

Wasn’t really aware that OKC has their 2025 Pick (top 10 protected) they really do need to bottom out next year

Top10 in '25 and top8 in '26.
You really don't want to lose any FRPs if you don't have your franchise player.

[rjv]

i've never liked that punk ass ainge. f' him and the jazz.

[exstatic]

Top10 in '25 and top8 in '26.
You really don't want to lose any FRPs if you don't have your franchise player.

To me, it makes no sense for ainge to want good young players. He has to tank in a big way the next two years, so he should be taking shit contracts and diamond style picks.

[LeBowen]

To me, it makes no sense for ainge to want good young players. He has to tank in a big way the next two years, so he should be taking shit contracts and diamond style picks.

Imo, wanting Kuminga makes sense since he's still only 21 and you'd be able to tank while testing if he can actually be a legit scoring option because he's not that good just yet.
Getting Devin would make sense because he'd surely be able to flip him to a desperate contender in a year or two considering his amazing contract.

It's kind of hard to get picks that are likely to be in the lottery unless you prey on desperate teams like we did with the Hawks.

I'm obviously subjective, but as I said many times, no team with assets makes sense because they're not that great of a fit for Lauri.
If I was Ainge, I'd be asking for Hawks and Minnesota picks. Not all of them, but some combination.

Then I guess it's down to how much PATFO values those ATL picks.
I'd do two Atlanta and both Minnesota picks if we can keep the '25 Atlanta pick and get '26 CLE/MIN back from them to have one FRP in '26 draft.

That would be three guaranteed picks and one trade up for them. And they'd probably be able to flip Keldon for one more bad FRP.

[scott]

To me, it makes no sense for ainge to want good young players. He has to tank in a big way the next two years, so he should be taking shit contracts and diamond style picks.

100%. It's really kind of illogical to want Vassell or Kuminga. Someone like Podz or even the draft rights to Castle would make more sense for him to ask for. Vassell and Kuminga might raise Utah's floor. They need young guys who are still too young to be floor raisers. Their roster is already full of guys like this: George, Hendricks, Sensabaugh, Kessler, Cody Williams, Collier, Filipowski, Juzang, Lofton Jr. That's an entire rotation full of young guys who can develop but successfully tank. Clarkson is a good vet tank commander to lead them.

[scott]

If they don't trade Lauri to us, I will be rooting hard AF for them to get #11 and lose their pick, and for MIN and CLE to play in the finals. Good luck rebuilding with pick 29 and 30, fuckfaces

[Mugen]

Force the Spurs trade, Lauri. Do it.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

To me, it makes no sense for ainge to want good young players. He has to tank in a big way the next two years, so he should be taking shit contracts and diamond style picks.

That's why they will like take Keldon and Collins. This will give them a chance to tank hard and also enable Spurs to extend Lauri this summer.

[mo7888]

Agree woth it being against Ainge's best interest to acquire Devin. The should be trying to attach JC to Lauri as a priority instead.

[MannyIsGod]

Them not having a pick next year if its out of the top 10 definitely does change things. I didn't realize taht before but yeah that's huge incentive to tank.

[DPG21920]

They can sit Lauri 15-20 games and easily accomplish goal imo

[Mugen]

They can sit Lauri 15-20 games and easily accomplish goal imo

They've done that 2 years in a row. There's a tradeoff when you keep doing that especially if Lauri wants to be eligible for awards tbh.

[K...]

yeah at the end of the day getting the max but having to sit thru a tank would be the pinnacle of achievement for most of us. so lets not throw stones if lauri turns down the chance to play number 2 to a all time great in exchange for a guaranteed chance to chuck numbers at max pay for the rest of your career. I know we all want him to test free agency but if he's risk averse it won't happen

[Ignazzz]

They can sit Lauri 15-20 games and easily accomplish goal imo

not an option

[DPG21920]

They've done that 2 years in a row. There's a tradeoff when you keep doing that especially if Lauri wants to be eligible for awards tbh.

Pretty sure 180m is the award lol

[rankingtear]

As long as CP3 has not reveiled his number and no other FA has signed we are still in. The ideal trade is to pair Zollins with KJ contract to be able to renegotiate Markannen deal to reduce the contract in year 4-5.

[z0sa]

They can sit Lauri 15-20 games and easily accomplish goal imo

Doesn't that tank Lauri's value potentially below max in FA, though? I think that's a big part of what's going on here. Lauri understands Jazz need to tank but he also does not want to undersell himself since (apparently, don't know Jazz well enough to be sure) they are sitting him a lot more than he thinks he needs to. His "health" is his main sticking point for a max contract, something tells me he makes a big fuss if the Jazz try to sit him and tank yet again, since that will affect The Bag.

Of course, if Lauri isn't worth the max anyway, then he's got a lot more to lose declining an extension. I think a team like the Spurs could max him next summer, but would they?

[LeBowen]

Of course, if Lauri isn't worth the max anyway, then he's got a lot more to lose declining an extension. I think a team like the Spurs could max him next summer, but would they?

Considering the players getting max extensions, Lauri is absolutely worth it.
If Franz Wagner and Evan Mobley can get $220M, Lauri has no reason to ask for anything less than what he's eligible for.

[z0sa]

Considering the players getting max extensions, Lauri is absolutely worth it.
If Franz Wagner and Evan Mobley can get $220M, Lauri has no reason to ask for anything less than what he's eligible for.

I agree 100%, just playing devil's advocate for those who may believe an extension is his highest potential salary. I'd say the smart move here is to give up nothing and sign him next summer, but you know the Jazz are in his ear saying the extension and one more season of tanking in a stacked draft will (hopefully) make the Jazz great again and he'll still have a massive salary. The question now becomes one of how Lauri sees his career unfolding over the next 5 years. As an MIP I see it hard to believe he's not going to go after the max though, even if it's "relatively" not that much more, as being a max salary pro player is something he would have only dreamed about when he entered the league.

I guess that could go both ways though and he's okay with the still-massive bag he'll get with an extension since that's also a lot higher than he projected to earn starting his career

[exstatic]

They've done that 2 years in a row. There's a tradeoff when you keep doing that especially if Lauri wants to be eligible for awards tbh.

And it’s not just next year. Their pick protection drops to 1-8 the following year, so they’ll have to tank again for the very good 26 draft. That would be four years in a row of sitting him. Then, they’ll suck for at least another year.

I watched a YouTube interview of Lauri, and it was presented in a humorous format, but the gist was that from his first year to his second, his touches dropped from 80 a game to 40, and he asked one of the coaches about it, and it was suggested that he get some more offensive rebounds, and his response was “Well I’m not getting 40 offensive boards “. Everybody laughed, but you can tell that he’s aware that not only is he being sat, but he’s being throttled when he’s on the floor playing. I don’t think everything is as rosy between he and Utah as is being floated in the media.

[Mugen]

Pretty sure 180m is the award lol

He can get that on another team without getting sat tbh.

[baseline bum]

They can sit Lauri 15-20 games and easily accomplish goal imo

They sat him 27 games this year and ended up with the #10 pick.

[exstatic]

They sat him 27 games this year and ended up with the #10 pick.

And they would have been #8 if ATL and BKN didn’t jump up into the top 4 and push them down.

Incidentally, that pick was a 2021 salary dump of Derrick Favors into OKC cap room. They still had Mitchell, Conley and Gobert, and no one thought this pick would amount to anything. This is why you get future first rounders, and not current ones. The landscape of a team can radically change in a short time, like 3 years.

[baseline bum]

And they would have been #8 if ATL and BKN didn’t jump up into the top 4 and push them down.

Incidentally, that pick was a 2021 salary dump of Derrick Favors into OKC cap room. They still had Mitchell, Conley and Gobert, and no one thought this pick would amount to anything. This is why you get future first rounders, and not current ones. The landscape of a team can radically change in a short time, like 3 years.

Yeah agreed on the second part, but on the first that should be negated by how many teams will be tanking for this loaded draft class. Utah can't afford to hold him until the trade deadline if they want a good shot at the kind of prospect it would be worth resetting for. And they definitely can't keep him and send that pick to OKC.

[exstatic]

Yeah agreed on the second part, but on the first that should be negated by how many teams will be tanking for this loaded draft class. Utah can't afford to hold him until the trade deadline if they want a good shot at the kind of prospect it would be worth resetting for. And they definitely can't keep him and send that pick to OKC.

I’ve been on the Danny Needs To Move Him train since early on. The clock is ticking.

Honestly, they should have seen this pick issue coming, and traded him after his ASG season with two years of team control left on that contract.

[LeBowen]

Yeah agreed on the second part, but on the first that should be negated by how many teams will be tanking for this loaded draft class. Utah can't afford to hold him until the trade deadline if they want a good shot at the kind of prospect it would be worth resetting for. And they definitely can't keep him and send that pick to OKC.

They can't afford to hold him until the deadline because with each passing day, his value will drop. What's the point of holding him, then?
And if he gets a new deal and is eligible for just that one day, they still won't get much. Warriors will probably come to their senses while being under .500 and realize Lauri doesn't do much for them and Spurs won't be pressed to trade because we're not in a hurry and Utah really wants to get rid of him.

I'm trying to be as objective as possible here, but it's been a long while since a trade made so much sense for both teams.

1) Lauri wants to stay only if Utah is going to compete.
2) They don't have the talent to compete.
3) They have to tank both this and the next season if they're to keep their picks.
4) He's 27 and he'd just waste his prime with the Jazz.
5) He's got no incentive to extend because he can get the same money elsewhere.
6) Spurs have a ton of picks from other teams that are great value and can easily match salaries. Even if they want to give him a raise right away.
7) Spurs are also the best possible fit basketball-wise.

Then we can get into conspiracy theories like Keldon not officially changing his number because they don't want to print and sell uniforms of a player who's about to get traded.
Spurs have been interested in Markkanen for a long time, so it's not just wishful thinking from fans.

I honestly think at this point it's just a standoff between PATFO and Ainge to see who blinks first.
He doesn't want to accept a reasonable offer, but PATFO has no reason to give him more than that since even a reasonable Spurs offer is the best offer he can get.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

As long as CP3 has not reveiled his number and no other FA has signed we are still in. The ideal trade is to pair Zollins with KJ contract to be able to renegotiate Markannen deal to reduce the contract in year 4-5.

This! Will happen!

[baseline bum]

As long as CP3 has not reveiled his number and no other FA has signed we are still in. The ideal trade is to pair Zollins with KJ contract to be able to renegotiate Markannen deal to reduce the contract in year 4-5.

Markannen is a max player and if the Spurs aren't prepared to give him a max deal they should not trade for him because it would be a rental when someone else offers him a max deal next summer. You can't frontload max deals.

[The Truth #6]

I get the sense that stars who are non-All NBA players still expect max deals but that the second apron will eventually change that market for overpaying once teams move off of players. Or owners will continue to spend manically. So actually who knows. But I feel like the FO is going to be very cautious who they give a big contract to outside of VW.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Markannen is a max player and if the Spurs aren't prepared to give him a max deal they should not trade for him because it would be a rental when someone else offers him a max deal next summer. You can't frontload max deals.

His max extension will start from 2025. In order to get that, his salary this season will have to be re-negotiated to about 35 Million which is about the combined salary of Keldon and Collins.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

I get the sense that stars who are non-All NBA players still expect max deals but that the second apron will eventually change that market for overpaying once teams move off of players. Or owners will continue to spend manically. So actually who knows. But I feel like the FO is going to be very cautious who they give a big contract to outside of VW.

After Lauri and Wemby, Spurs cannot afford to give anyone else max salary within 3 to 4 years. After that, with the increased cap, Lauri's max will be a bargain and they can get another star with max offer.

[JPB]

I get the sense that stars who are non-All NBA players still expect max deals but that the second apron will eventually change that market for overpaying once teams move off of players. Or owners will continue to spend manically. So actually who knows. But I feel like the FO is going to be very cautious who they give a big contract to outside of VW.

From the spurs or another team, Lauri will get that max extension. You can't keep on passing on these guys, hoping you'll find that one who for some reason won't ask for what he can get or that THE right max guy is just gonna fall right into your arms when you need him... Who could be that guy reasonably in the next couple of years? Which fitting star/superstar in their prime could be available anytime soon (this isn't a Trae thread)?

And you won't be able to build nowadays a contender entirely out of your picks and development program, which would take another 4 or 5 years anyway for the spurs.

[JPB]

After Lauri and Wemby, Spurs cannot afford to give anyone else max salary within 3 to 4 years. After that, with the increased cap, Lauri's max will be a bargain and they can get another star with max offer.

If they luck into that one other star in next year's draft, the timeline would be just fine if you sign then max Lauri.

[OldMan88]

Given some of the comments in this thread, I must ask…. If not Markannen, then who would be a better target for trade?

[The Truth #6]

The Spurs are going for a long run, it seems, so how do we know they want a second max guy? They might be trying to focus on VW and surround him with quality non-stars like Devin.

[LeBowen]

The Spurs are going for a long run, it seems, so how do we know they want a second max guy? They might be trying to focus on VW and surround him with quality non-stars like Devin.

Because Markkanen is the perfect player to get for a long run.
Re-negotiating and giving hom a four year max on top of it would mean it's done after 28-29 season.
Who else has a contract expiring after 28-29? Devin. I'd say having second and third option on around 70-75 million combined is great value with cap rising by 15 million every year.
Wemby's extension kicks in summer of 2028, so we wouldn't even have to go over the cap.

Cap projection for the next 5 years is 141-154-170-187-205 millon.
If 26-27 season is the target to be in serious championship contention, we'd be around 70 million under the cap with Wemby, Lauri, Devin and Castle earning around 100 million combined.
If Castle and whoever gets drafted are '25 is legit, with Jeremy improving and signing a team-friendly deal, we'd still have let's say 30ish million for two great role players and we'd be in a better both short and long term situation than current OKC.

[Mr. Body]

I get the sense that stars who are non-All NBA players still expect max deals but that the second apron will eventually change that market for overpaying once teams move off of players. Or owners will continue to spend manically. So actually who knows. But I feel like the FO is going to be very cautious who they give a big contract to outside of VW.

We're already seeing it with Brandon Ingram. He wants to be maxed out and by all appearances no one wants to give him that money, including his own team.

[LeBowen]

We're already seeing it with Brandon Ingram. He wants to be maxed out and by all appearances no one wants to give him that money, including his own team.

Don't you get tired?
You keep spewing nonsense about Markkanen without any actual arguments or numbers to support it, someone embarrasses you with actual data, you disappear and then act like nothing happened in a few days, back on your Bargnani shit.

[Mr. Body]

Don't you get tired?
You keep spewing nonsense about Markkanen without any actual arguments or numbers to support it, someone embarrasses you with actual data, you disappear and then act like nothing happened in a few days, back on your Bargnani shit.

I literally said nothing about Markkanen. What the fuck is wrong with you?

[BackHome]

The other issue is that Lauri has a big say in where he can be traded to and I have not heard that he would like to play in San Antonio. All he has to say to Ainge and the other teams - You can trade me but it will be a rental cause I won’t sign a new contract unless your X team. That dramatically lowers his trade value and only way to get around that is to sign him to another contract and him waiving any trade clause.

I like Lauri but no way am I giving Ainge multiple unprotected picks as I remember him in Chicago where he was OK and also very injury prone.

[Mr. Body]

Don't you get tired?
You keep spewing nonsense about Markkanen without any actual arguments or numbers to support it, someone embarrasses you with actual data, you disappear and then act like nothing happened in a few days, back on your Bargnani shit.

Dude, goddamn, that was about Brandon Ingram. Go touch some motherfucking grass.

[aissagholi7981]

Everyone also needs to accept the fact that there is going to be a time when Wemby misses half/full season or so when he's 25-26. You can't wait 3-4 years to have a team ready, you go and win now, which is what I am assuming will happen as Pop is not going to be the coach in 3-4 years and he wants one more for his legacy.

Playoffs next year
Finals the year after

Cheers boys.

[LeBowen]

I literally said nothing about Markkanen. What the fuck is wrong with you?

The only players who won't get max money are players who had terrible seasons and are fundamentally flawed. Like Ingram with his need to have the ball, but not being useful enough for the team when he has it.



The other issue is that Lauri has a big say in where he can be traded to and I have not heard that he would like to play in San Antonio.

And where else would he go? Legit question.
Which other team can easily have enough cap space for a max player without losing any important rotation pieces and also has an elite rim protector to play with him because Markkanen's value diminishes when he's not playing with a legit rim protector.
I don't recall many cases of European players in their prime refusing to play for a competitive team.
And these trades happen only if the extension is pre-arranged. Siakam and OG deals being the most recent examples.


as I remember him in Chicago

Yeah, because players can't improve or get worse. Everything is set is stone.
You remember him being average four years ago for a horrible team with a horrible coach, which means he must be bad.
Knicks are so dumb they offered the max to Brunson, he was a second round pick.


very injury prone.

No, he's not.
He was the player with most COVID and illness protocols in those few years, but he's never had any basketball related injuries that would be a cause for long-term concern.


Dude, goddamn, that was about Brandon Ingram. Go touch some motherfucking grass.

Why are you replying to the same post twice, are you ok? :rollin
I'd touch some grass if it wasn't living in hell where it's impossible to go out during the day unless you really have to.

[rankingtear]

Markannen is a max player and if the Spurs aren't prepared to give him a max deal they should not trade for him because it would be a rental when someone else offers him a max deal next summer. You can't frontload max deals.

He would make more money if he renegotiate and extend than the max in free agency. Even less so if he signs with other teams.

[DPG21920]

They sat him 27 games this year and ended up with the #10 pick.

Sure - but Im more saying that in conjunction with other tanking moves where they get to keep Lauri. So they sit him while trading Clarkson + Kessler etc…

[BackHome]

Since 2017 he has only played more then 56 games 3 times in his career- So he had things like shoulder strain, hip stress fracture, multiple ankle sprains etc. Yeah, it’s a sport people get hurt but to me he is soft he is easily prone to soft tissue injuries.

Like I said I like him but he is going to have problems getting through a season and when Playoffs start we all know things start to get a lot more physical.

[Payote75]

I am totally 1000% against giving up Vassell having said that does anyone here compromise if to get lauri you give vassell but expand the deal Keldon etc. But they included Kessler????

[exstatic]

Sure - but Im more saying that in conjunction with other tanking moves where they get to keep Lauri. So they sit him while trading Clarkson + Kessler etc…

They’re asking two FRPs for him, he was a late first rounder, and he’s been benched. Kesslers going nowhere.

[scott]

While I have no doubt believing Ainge is asking for too much for Kessler, I think the “turning down of two FRPs” thing is overblown. NYK could have offered two Top-20 protected picks for all we know.

one real FRP (like Top-8 protected) would probably get Kessler, though he’s prob not worth it

[scott]

I am totally 1000% against giving up Vassell having said that does anyone here compromise if to get lauri you give vassell but expand the deal Keldon etc. But they included Kessler????

if it’s for Devin with no other picks attached I might consider it, but Devin plus picks is two steps forward, 1.99 steps back. Not worth giving up primo draft capital for a marginal improvement that leaves you now having to replace a giant hole at SG

if you could do a 3 team deal where we sent out Devin and somehow got Lauri and a Derrick White caliber player - then it makes more sense. But Wemby + Lauri + Devin is the dream combo

[BackHome]

If your a playoff team needing a big then might consider it but if I am not a playoff team no way do I do a top 8 protection pick

[Payote75]

I agree but would you include Devin if your getting lauri and Kessler bk? I am more tempted by that because castle or some else can play sg but I'm only tempted lol I don't want to part with Devin

[DPG21920]

The goal of getting Lauri is to accelerate winning. Giving up Dev for Lauri counteracts a big part of the point of doing said trade. And you are now supposed to give up picks too which harms the future?

How does that make any sense?

[CGD]

For the Lauri-Stan’s, just be patient. Teams called Ainge’s bluff and he’s recalibrating. They want to see if Ainge extends him in August, and gather more info then.
Better to trade for a cost controlled player, etc.

The Spurs’ summer offer will still be there in February, or whenever he can be moved after extending. They will be in as good a position to make a competitive offer as the next team.

Excellent analysis of the state of play. The topline: “Utah's best chance of truly winning Markkanen's situation has come and gone.”

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10127904-jazz-face-no-win-situation-with-lauri-markkanen-amid-contract-nba-trade-rumors.amp.html

[objective]

I wonder if the "Markkannen prevents then from tanking" narrative is a little overblown.

Is it possible that the key to Utah tanking last year to end the season was really trading away Fontecchio? He had really good advanced numbers, Nate Duncan had some incredible stats for his on/off numbers, raved about him.

Fontecchio started 34 games after becoming a starter in late November ... Utah was 20-14 in those starts.. Not saying Fontecchio is the mvp, but that he was just a great fit and lubricator for the Jazz system.

After the trade, Markannen played in 17 more games. They were 3-14.

Maybe Markannen by himself won't be keepi6mnv the Jazz from tanking. And if that's the case the pressure to trade him is less.

[sfernald]

I’m over it. It’s way too expensive a price. Just find someone else for cheaper. It’s really a buyer’s market right now. So many free agents still looking for a deal. I’m sure there’s someone really good who will help the spurs for pennies compared to the Prince of Mormans.

[tonight...you]

I’m over it. It’s way too expensive a price. Just find someone else for cheaper. It’s really a buyer’s market right now. So many free agents still looking for a deal. I’m sure there’s someone really good who will help the spurs for pennies compared to the Prince of Mormans.
He's Mormon?

[Pauleta14]

I’m over it. It’s way too expensive a price. Just find someone else for cheaper. It’s really a buyer’s market right now. So many free agents still looking for a deal. I’m sure there’s someone really good who will help the spurs for pennies compared to the Prince of Mormans.

You must be fun at the poker table ^^

Utah are the ones on a timeline, not the Spurs who also can offer the best package of all the candidates.

Just be patient

[John B]

Spurs has plenty of options here. They can wait this out. It’s Jazz’ move to extend Markannen or if he force a trade. 2025 is a loaded draft. Spurs got pocket ace on Wemby.

[sfernald]

Spurs has plenty of options here. They can wait this out. It’s Jazz’ move to extend Markannen or if he force a trade. 2025 is a loaded draft. Spurs got pocket ace on Wemby.


im just saying I don’t think Ainge budges on this. I think he’ll just sign him and then maybe try to pick up some cheap free agents and make a run at it this year. Kennard, Trent Jr, and a few other free agents are actually good players. We should just go after those with sign and trades. Why pay Rolls Royce pricing?

[John B]

im just saying I don’t think Ainge budges on this. I think he’ll just sign him and then maybe try to pick up some cheap free agents and make a run at it this year. Kennard, Trent Jr, and a few other free agents are actually good players. We should just go after those with sign and trades. Why pay Rolls Royce pricing?

Jazz is going rebuild you can bet on it, and Ainge will be a fool not to with a loaded 2025. Markkanen will be a nice piece but he’s not the only game, and not for a kings ransom. Spurs can be patient here.

[exstatic]

im just saying I don’t think Ainge budges on this. I think he’ll just sign him and then maybe try to pick up some cheap free agents and make a run at it this year. Kennard, Trent Jr, and a few other free agents are actually good players. We should just go after those with sign and trades. Why pay Rolls Royce pricing?

It’s not Ainges decision, it’s Markannen’s. He can just not extend, and he might do just that. Utah has been in tank mode for two years, and to protect their pick, they have to tank the next two, since it’s 1-10 and 1-8 protection. That will make Lauri 29 before they even want to start winning.

Ainge doesn’t control the situation, Lauri does. If he doesn’t extend on the day of 6 August, he’s ineligible to be traded during the season, and Ainge gets scraps for him. This is an unusual situation where Ainge doesn’t hold the leverage, and everybody knows it, so they’re calling his bluff.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Tbh Markkanen would have to be completely batshit crazy not to take $200+ mil if the Jazz are offering it. Secure the bag and think about basketball ambitions later is the smart thing to do.

[spurraider21]

Tbh Markkanen would have to be completely batshit crazy not to take $200+ mil if the Jazz are offering it. Secure the bag and think about basketball ambitions later is the smart thing to do.
Yeah but he can secure it on august 7 and then make himself ineligible to be traded until the offseason

[FlAVaK]

Jazz won't offer it before Aug. 6th, because they want wo trade him with his current contract and let his new team figure it out...

[Seventyniner]

It’s not Ainges decision, it’s Markannen’s. He can just not extend, and he might do just that. Utah has been in tank mode for two years, and to protect their pick, they have to tank the next two, since it’s 1-10 and 1-8 protection. That will make Lauri 29 before they even want to start winning.

Ainge doesn’t control the situation, Lauri does. If he doesn’t extend on the day of 6 August, he’s ineligible to be traded during the season, and Ainge gets scraps for him. This is an unusual situation where Ainge doesn’t hold the leverage, and everybody knows it, so they’re calling his bluff.

It's the other way around: if Lauri does extend after August 6 then he can't be traded until next offseason.

If he just turns down all extension offers and plays out the last season of his contract, he can be traded all the way up to the trade deadline on February 6. Of course he won't fetch nearly as much in return because he would be a potential rental, but the acquiring team would have his full Bird rights.

[FlAVaK]

I know that. And because of that they want to trade him now. But Ainge wants too much, other teams know about that constellation around Aug. 6, so at some point Ainge has to lower his demands...

[scott]

We’ll see some movement before 8/6 unless the Jazz are serious about keeping him AND somehow tanking. We’ll see

[k830713]

Ingram and Markannen want a new contract 212/4. This is a serious problem of who to choose and how many picks to devote to it.
This is a serious problem of who to choose and how many picks to devote to it.This is a serious problem of who to choose and how many picks to devote to it.

[exstatic]

Ingram and Markannen want a new contract 212/4. This is a serious problem of who to choose and how many picks to devote to it.
This is a serious problem of who to choose and how many picks to devote to it.This is a serious problem of who to choose and how many picks to devote to it.
It’s not even a choice. I take Lauri 100 times out of 100. If he’s not available you sit tight, and don’t waste $1 or one pick on Ingram.

[BatManu20]

Yea Ainge is nuts. Asking price is way too high. Hopefully this backfires and they hold onto him too long and it fucks up their tank. Then Lauri walks next Summer for nothing. Would be beautiful.

1812875819238207901

[Leetonidas]

Yeah, pretty greedy. Markkanen was basically a throw in piece in the Mitchell trade and he's trying to get the same return for him as that trade

Pass

[LeBowen]

Asking price is high, but that offer is trash.

Moody isn't worth a FRP, he's a 6'6 bad shooter with no playmaking skills and Warriors can trade just two FRPs outright.
Keldon is more valuable than Moody, which says a lot. Not to mention Moody is on an expiring deal and will definitely ask for an overpay to stay in Utah.

[Pauleta14]

Asking price is high, but that offer is trash.

Moody isn't worth a FRP, he's a 6'6 bad shooter with no playmaking skills and Warriors can trade just two FRPs outright.
Keldon is more valuable than Moody, which says a lot. Not to mention Moody is on an expiring deal and will definitely ask for an overpay to stay in Utah.

Definitely a trash offer from GS :lol

+ GS's 1RPs and swaps become a lot less valuable the sec Lauri joins them

In the end Utah isn't asking a absurd price, imo either Kuminga or Podz could be enough with Mood and the picks package

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Yea Ainge is nuts. Asking price is way too high. Hopefully this backfires and they hold onto him too long and it fucks up their tank. Then Lauri walks next Summer for nothing. Would be beautiful.

1812875819238207901

Aha! Good news! Warrior's offer still cannot beat spurs. :)

[BatManu20]

I do think Markkanen eventually gets moved, because again, it makes no sense for a Utah jazz team that desperately needs to tank for the 2025 NBA draft to hold onto him. That’s why I keep saying just wait it out. Either that asking price goes down, or Utah shoots themselves in the foot in terms of draft positioning. Their call. We can still match any offer from any other team. Be patient, it’ll work itself out and due time.

[scott]

Ainge is strong arming, and honestly it looks like it's working (on the Warriors). I wonder if Steph is in Kerr's ear about getting this done and that's making it's way to management.

I still believe it makes sense for Lauri to move before Aug 6, but I think the Warriors will win this by going way overboard. Can't blame our FA if another team wants to make stupid moves.

[LeBowen]

What would be going overboard? Removing protections on that pick they traded to Washington and making it Kuminga and three picks?
We can easily beat that and still have at least one FRP every draft.

I just don't get it from Warriors' perspective.
Contending days are long gone, no point in mortgaging your future to maybe make it out of the first round.
And Markkanen's fit there is questionable.

[Mugen]

Two unprotected Warriors picks post Steph would be very, very hard to top. I'd jump on that if I were Ainge, even if Kuminga wasn't included tbh.

[scott]

What would be going overboard? Removing protections on that pick they traded to Washington and making it Kuminga and three picks?
We can easily beat that and still have at least one FRP every draft.

I just don't get it from Warriors' perspective.
Contending days are long gone, no point in mortgaging your future to maybe make it out of the first round.
And Markkanen's fit there is questionable.

Kuminga + Podz + Moody + 2 FRPs + 2 Swaps would be overboard in my opinion.

I still like my best offer of Keldon + SA26 + SA28 + SA30 + MIN31, and I'd even be willing to add Sochan... but I'm not sure if that's a better package than the one above. If Utah was getting GS28 + GS29 Swap + GS31 Swap, those all look juicy.

[scott]

And I'm absolutely not sending out Vassell. I like Lauri better than Vassell straight up, but I'm not giving up Devin and a bevvy of picks - that's 2 steps forward to take 1.99 steps back. I want a Wemby + Lauri + Devin + Castle + SA25 + ATL25 core.

[TrainOfThought5]

Kuminga + Podz + Moody + 2 FRPs + 2 Swaps would be overboard in my opinion.

I still like my best offer of Keldon + SA26 + SA28 + SA30 + MIN31, and I'd even be willing to add Sochan... but I'm not sure if that's a better package than the one above. If Utah was getting GS28 + GS29 Swap + GS31 Swap, those all look juicy.

thats an Overpay.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Two unprotected Warriors picks post Steph would be very, very hard to top. I'd jump on that if I were Ainge, even if Kuminga wasn't included tbh.

Spurs already figured this out and made better offer. That's why there is no deal between Warriors and Jazz yet.

[MultiTroll]

Spurs already figured this out and made better offer. That's why there is no deal between Warriors and Jazz yet.
Good.
Unless they are just being used again to up the Gay Areas offer.

[Kevin]

Kuminga + Podz + Moody + 2 FRPs + 2 Swaps would be overboard in my opinion.

I still like my best offer of Keldon + SA26 + SA28 + SA30 + MIN31, and I'd even be willing to add Sochan... but I'm not sure if that's a better package than the one above. If Utah was getting GS28 + GS29 Swap + GS31 Swap, those all look juicy.

Subtract the mediocre 26 and 28 Spurs picks with one ATL pick and that's pretty close to what it will take. I'd also do a Zollins for John Collins swap. If the Spurs add Lauri and presumably extend him the Spurs cap space days are done anyway. Spurs would have to throw in one of Mal or Blake to make salaries match.

[scott]

Subtract the mediocre 26 and 28 Spurs picks with one ATL pick and that's pretty close to what it will take. I'd also do a Zollins for John Collins swap. If the Spurs add Lauri and presumably extend him the Spurs cap space days are done anyway. Spurs would have to throw in one of Mal or Blake to make salaries match.

I've discussed at length why the SA26 and SA28 are the picks that makes sense here (and specifically the SA26 is not mediocre. It's includes the ATL swap). Not going to go over it again, but these are the picks that specifically fit Utah.

[heyheymymy]

GSW responding offer being a fraction of the Jazz ask kinda sets the market for Mark a bit though

[Kevin]

I've discussed at length why the SA26 and SA28 are the picks that makes sense here (and specifically the SA26 is not mediocre. It's includes the ATL swap). Not going to go over it again, but these are the picks that specifically fit Utah.

I forgot about the swap attachments to those picks. My bad. Yes I agree that package would do the trick.

[scott]

Ainge and Zanik just going their jobs - maximizing their return. Just need one of the Warriors or the Spurs (or some unknown third party) to blink. It won't be the Spurs. So long as the Warriors hold the line, the price will come down as we get closer to Aug 6. Ainge doesn't want to run the risk of not getting the extension done with Markkenen on Aug 6, at which point the value really drops.

[baseline bum]

Yea Ainge is nuts. Asking price is way too high. Hopefully this backfires and they hold onto him too long and it fucks up their tank. Then Lauri walks next Summer for nothing. Would be beautiful.

1812875819238207901

They're probably offering crappy picks, say 2025 and 2027. I have no interest whatsoever in those if I'm Ainge and sending a guy in Markannen that can push them to title contention and then I'm picking in the 20s while the Warriors are still good. The picks I want from them if I'm Ainge are 2029 and 2031 unprotected from when Curry is washed up or retired but GSW has to find a way to get a 2030 pick to move those since they owe Washington their 2030 first if it's #21 or worse. Makes sense to demand Kuminga, Podz, and Moody since there is no way the Warriors are doing that in a win now move so tells them to get off their ass and find a way to make unprotected 2029 and 2031 picks work along with 2028 and 2030 swaps (with the 2030 only good for top 20 bc of the Poole to Washington trade). Only then would it make sense for Utah to take Wiggins contract and make it a Markannen for picks+swap+salary kind of deal. Utah's not going take picks in the 20s and three years of paying Wiggins for Markannen.

[spurraider21]

he's not getting moved if this is the game ainge is playing

[exstatic]

Ainge is strong arming, and honestly it looks like it's working (on the Warriors). I wonder if Steph is in Kerr's ear about getting this done and that's making it's way to management.

I still believe it makes sense for Lauri to move before Aug 6, but I think the Warriors will win this by going way overboard. Can't blame our FA if another team wants to make stupid moves.

Why do you think it’s working? Their respective offers are a Grand Canyon apart. There is ZERO point to bringing in Lauri, if Podz and Kuminga are outbound. You only want to put a championship team on the floor for that price, and that’s a first round out or play in team.

[Mugen]

Ainge and Zanik just going their jobs - maximizing their return. Just need one of the Warriors or the Spurs (or some unknown third party) to blink. It won't be the Spurs. So long as the Warriors hold the line, the price will come down as we get closer to Aug 6. Ainge doesn't want to run the risk of not getting the extension done with Markkenen on Aug 6, at which point the value really drops.

This. Not sure why people are criticizing Ainge & Co. when they're doing exactly what we'd want PATFO to do in a similar situation. I think they've played it correctly so far and I would not be surprised if we end up seeing a Warriors overpay in the near future.

[JPB]

I don't believe it's necessarily just a GS vs. SA story nor that time plays against Ainge.

Other teams could come out of the woods before Aug. 6th, which is exactly what Ainge is waiting for. No point for him anyway to accept any offer now, even if he ends up accepting one he previously passed, which you can be sure of that, will still be on the table. Not like there was a plethoria of Lauris available this summer.

[scott]

Why do you think it’s working? Their respective offers are a Grand Canyon apart. There is ZERO point to bringing in Lauri, if Podz and Kuminga are outbound. You only want to put a championship team on the floor for that price, and that’s a first round out or play in team.

I see the Warriors inching closer to the deal Ainge wants... probably because he knows the Spurs can beat what they really want to offer.

I am in full agreement that this deal isn't the smartest thing for GSW to do, but there must be some kind of pressure and maybe that ownership group is just resigned to be a 1st apron, flirting with second apron team in the long run where they have to constantly make high stakes deals to stay relevant? I honestly don't know.

What I do know, is that this works in the Spurs favor for GSW to hold the line. That last week before the 8/6 deadline will be the Spurs golden hour to pounce for the right price so long as GSW doesn't blink.

[exstatic]

I don't believe it's necessarily just a GS vs. SA story nor that time plays against Ainge.

Other teams could come out of the woods before Aug. 6th, which is exactly what Ainge is waiting for. No point for him anyway to accept any offer now, even if he ends up accepting one he previously passed, which you can be sure of that, will still be on the table. Not like there was a plethoria of Lauris available this summer.

Second apron’s gonna squash that. It’s a new day for the NBA.

[scott]

I don't believe it's necessarily just a GS vs. SA story nor that time plays against Ainge.

Other teams could come out of the woods before Aug. 6th, which is exactly what Ainge is waiting for. No point for him anyway to accept any offer now, even if he ends up accepting one he previously passed, which you can be sure of that, will still be on the table. Not like there was a plethoria of Lauris available this summer.

Yeah, I still think the situation is ripe for Houston to swoop in. They have the young prospects and the picks, and I think Lauri is a good consolidation move for them, even if the on-the-court fit with Sengun isn't great. If they could get Kessler in the deal as well (and maybe Sengun is what goes over to Utah), then a Sheppard/Green/Jabari/Lauri/Kessler lineup would be pretty interesting for them.

Sengun + a couple of picks might be the kind of deal that works really well for Utah. I am not familiar with the recovery timeline on Sengun's injury, but it is goes into the start of the season it gives them a nice rolling tank to start and they can slowly bring Sengun back to cement a Bottom-3 seed in the lotto.

[exstatic]

I see the Warriors inching closer to the deal Ainge wants... probably because he knows the Spurs can beat what they really want to offer.

I am in full agreement that this deal isn't the smartest thing for GSW to do, but there must be some kind of pressure and maybe that ownership group is just resigned to be a 1st apron, flirting with second apron team in the long run where they have to constantly make high stakes deals to stay relevant? I honestly don't know.

What I do know, is that this works in the Spurs favor for GSW to hold the line. That last week before the 8/6 deadline will be the Spurs golden hour to pounce for the right price so long as GSW doesn't blink.

Next three weeks should be very interesting.

[baseline bum]

he's not getting moved if this is the game ainge is playing

Why are we treating all first round picks as equal? Why would Ainge move Markannen in a deal where the centerpiece would be Golden State's 2025 and 2027 picks for example? Which is what I saw Hollinger mention as the picks likely involved. Those are trash for a rebuilding team, hence the outrageous ask on player return. Golden State is going to have to give up post Curry unprotected firsts as well as at least a TOSB Curry era swap just for Utah taking Wiggins remaining $85 million deal off their hands.

[baseline bum]

Yeah, I still think the situation is ripe for Houston to swoop in. They have the young prospects and the picks, and I think Lauri is a good consolidation move for them, even if the on-the-court fit with Sengun isn't great. If they could get Kessler in the deal as well (and maybe Sengun is what goes over to Utah), then a Sheppard/Green/Jabari/Lauri/Kessler lineup would be pretty interesting for them.

Sengun + a couple of picks might be the kind of deal that works really well for Utah. I am not familiar with the recovery timeline on Sengun's injury, but it is goes into the start of the season it gives them a nice rolling tank to start and they can slowly bring Sengun back to cement a Bottom-3 seed in the lotto.

Nah, you forgetting they have Amen Thompson? Green's the one they'd move.

[exstatic]

Yeah, I still think the situation is ripe for Houston to swoop in. They have the young prospects and the picks, and I think Lauri is a good consolidation move for them, even if the on-the-court fit with Sengun isn't great. If they could get Kessler in the deal as well (and maybe Sengun is what goes over to Utah), then a Sheppard/Green/Jabari/Lauri/Kessler lineup would be pretty interesting for them.

Sengun + a couple of picks might be the kind of deal that works really well for Utah. I am not familiar with the recovery timeline on Sengun's injury, but it is goes into the start of the season it gives them a nice rolling tank to start and they can slowly bring Sengun back to cement a Bottom-3 seed in the lotto.

I think Houston’s eyes are further down the road. There’s a reason they gave back most of Brooklyns picks in exchange for the Phoenix picks. They have their eye on either KD or Book, and those picks would be the key to unlocking a deal, because they would allow Phoenix to burn it to the ground in a rebuild.

[SpursBills]

Wonder if phoenix would entertain a KD for KAT swap +/- picks going either way if they start slow. Wolves really get to go for it for 1-2 years, phoenix doesn’t bottom out with KAT and book

[scott]

Nah, you forgetting they have Amen Thompson? Green's the one they'd move.

Amen can't shoot for shit... like, he makes Collins look like Steph. If Amen is going into this lineup, then Kessler doesn't they'd need a center who can shoot. Sengun is slightly more of a threat, but he's still not really a shooter either, and he's weak defensively (Kessler actually ranks ahead of Wemby in BB Index's rim protection ratings. I'm not sure I'd believe that, but I do believe Kessler is at least a top-5 rim protector in the league, but he's not much else).

Green isn't a lights out shooter, but he's kind of like Trae Young - someone capable but with an average that is brought down by too much volume and poor shot selection. With that said... he's not that great either, but I think he's a better fit if they're bringing in Lauri. Honestly, they would be best off doing the Lauri deal I suggested and trying to trade Green somewhere else. Idk if Brooks is capable of playing SG, but if he could then that would also be an interesting lineup, but too light on the creation/penetration. Green's archetype fits better at SG for them... he just needs to take a leap in maturity that he may not be capable of.

[scott]

I think Houston’s eyes are further down the road. There’s a reason they gave back most of Brooklyns picks in exchange for the Phoenix picks. They have their eye on either KD or Book, and those picks would be the key to unlocking a deal, because they would allow Phoenix to burn it to the ground in a rebuild.

Just my opinion, but I don't see KD making any sense for Houston. As much as I hate to admit it, the Rockets have done a good job rebuilding that franchise and going all in for an aging KD just destroys all their work for a 1 or 2 year window with KD (if that... it's not like KD is raising the level of PHX right now). Booker, on the other hand makes a ton of sense... but I guess the question becomes, do you pass the opportunity that is known (Lauri) for an opportunity that may or may not ever arise (Booker)? It's a gamble! If I were a Rockets fan (and thankfully I am not), I'd want to go the Lauri route, because it's a real opportunity here now, and the fit is good both in terms of on-the-court and timeline (same reasons that apply to us. I'd be down with Booker too... but that opportunity may never actually materialize, so I'm not going to hold out for it).

[k830713]

What contract would you give for Markannen?

[TD 21]

Good.
Unless they are just being used again to up the Gay Areas offer.

:lmao At thinking gay is an insult in '24 . . . and no, I'm not. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Ainge and Zanik just going their jobs - maximizing their return. Just need one of the Warriors or the Spurs (or some unknown third party) to blink. It won't be the Spurs. So long as the Warriors hold the line, the price will come down as we get closer to Aug 6. Ainge doesn't want to run the risk of not getting the extension done with Markkenen on Aug 6, at which point the value really drops.

Yeah, people love to freak out over this stuff, but it's negotiation 101: Start unreasonably high, so when you eventually come down to high or relatively so, you can pretend to have compromised, when in reality that was always the inevitable endgame.

Presuming Markkanen is ready to extend on August 6th, the Jazz are not the ones facing any pressure here and even if he isn't, that deadline is still far enough away to play hardball for the time being.

[scott]

What contract would you give for Markannen?

In this NBA, there is only one contract to offer: the max. If Lauri wants to do some kind of Brunson favor, he'll communicate that and you work from there... but any team acquiring Lauri has to be willing, able and prepared to pay him the max.

[jesterbobman]

I think the Warriors will feel a sense of trying to give Steph one last ride and a title contending team in his twilight years, and make a bad move to try and give the franchise icon one last chance. I think 2022 was the swan song and they don't really have an avenue of getting up a tier.
If I'm Ainge, I'm asking for Podz, 2029 and 31 swaps, 2028 and 2030 (1-20) picks. I think those late GS picks are more valuable than the Minnesota pick (Steph is older than Ant), but less valuable than the Atlanta picks (immediacy).

I think Indiana could be another interesting option as a trading partner. They have a bunch of young pieces that they could look to bundle together (Mathurin, Nemhard, Walker, Sheppard) and could be more heavily player than pick based, but upgrading the starting wings with a 3 for 1 could make a lot of sense. I'd guess Ainge wants picks rather than players for the tank, so it'd probably need to be a 3 teamer (to an extent).

[scott]

I think the Warriors will feel a sense of trying to give Steph one last ride and a title contending team in his twilight years, and make a bad move to try and give the franchise icon one last chance. I think 2022 was the swan song and they don't really have an avenue of getting up a tier.
If I'm Ainge, I'm asking for Podz, 2029 and 31 swaps, 2028 and 2030 (1-20) picks. I think those late GS picks are more valuable than the Minnesota pick (Steph is older than Ant), but less valuable than the Atlanta picks (immediacy).

I think Indiana could be another interesting option as a trading partner. They have a bunch of young pieces that they could look to bundle together (Mathurin, Nemhard, Walker, Sheppard) and could be more heavily player than pick based, but upgrading the starting wings with a 3 for 1 could make a lot of sense. I'd guess Ainge wants picks rather than players for the tank, so it'd probably need to be a 3 teamer (to an extent).

Interesting idea with Indianapolis but I don't see how they could afford three max guys in the long-term, but from a dollars perspective and from a cap management/apron avoidance perspective. If not for the cap and aprons, I'd agree that the Pacers would be a good fit.

[k830713]

W tej NBA jest tylko jeden kontrakt do zaoferowania: maks. Jeśli Lauri chce zrobić Brunsonowi jakąś przysługę, to on to zakomunikuje i od tego momentu działacie... ale każdy zespół, który chce pozyskać Lauriego, musi być chętny, zdolny i przygotowany, aby zapłacić mu maks.

Is Markannen worth that much money?? Have you seen how many times he played in PO in his career? Can he win??

[scott]

1812950163536900422

This the same guy who thinks the Spurs, Thunder and Celtics are in a master class of front offices and other front offices should avoid trading with them... but I agree with his take here.

[MultiTroll]

:lmao At thinking gay is an insult in '24 . . . and no, I'm not. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Thanks for the attempted lesson, Wokey.
And you feel the need to state that you're "not, Not that there is anything wrong with that." :lol Trying to play both sides.

On topic you think it's such an easy thing to deal with Ainge. It isn't.

[Knoxxx]

Yeah, pretty greedy. Markkanen was basically a throw in piece in the Mitchell trade and he's trying to get the same return for him as that trade

Pass

Yea and also should have traded Kawhi back for George Hill under that logic.

[TD 21]

Thanks for the attempted lesson, Wokey.
And you feel the need to state that you're "not, Not that there is anything wrong with that." :lol Trying to play both sides.

On topic you think it's such an easy thing to deal with Ainge. It isn't.

I like to get ahead of the next response when I can, which is easy to do with people as predictable as your MAGA ass and :lmao at not getting the reference.

Where did I say it was easy?

[scott]

Would be really rad if this message board could finally do away with the use of various slurs it seems to love.

[MultiTroll]

I like to get ahead of the next response when I can, which is easy to do with people as predictable as your MAGA ass and :lmao at not getting the reference.

Where did I say it was easy?
I'm a MAGA. I'll post that in the political forum for some LoLs.
Anyway not sure what your next Strawman, excuse me Strawperson is going to be but yes could we stick to basketball?

[MultiTroll]

Yeah, people love to freak out over this stuff, but it's negotiation 101: Start unreasonably high, so when you eventually come down to high or relatively so, you can pretend to have compromised, when in reality that was always the inevitable endgame.

Presuming Markkanen is ready to extend on August 6th, the Jazz are not the ones facing any pressure here and even if he isn't, that deadline is still far enough away to play hardball for the time being.
Sounds like you're trying to make it sound easy with Ainge.

[widowmaker]

My question is how do we get ainge to be our GM?

[CGD]

My question is how do we get ainge to be our GM?

Our GM is doing plenty fine on the asset accumulation. The real question is whether he’ll know how to shift gears when it’s time to use the chips. Honestly, Angie is pretty trash at that part of the job.

[DPG21920]

Im so over thinking about Lauri. I would much rather UTA keep him, pay him and build around him than for some team to get fleeced for a ton of picks and players and allow UTA to avoid building around Lauri and be more like OKC.

UTA keeping Lauri better than than that for SA future.

[CGD]

Im so over thinking about Lauri. I would much rather UTA keep him, pay him and build around him than for some team to get fleeced for a ton of picks and players and allow UTA to avoid building around Lauri and be more like OKC.

UTA keeping Lauri better than than that for SA future.

It also weakens a 25 draft competitor if they keep him, so we should be rooting for that. Ainge’s leverage diminishes by the day.

[Mr. Body]

I wonder what Ainge is looking at in terms of his team's landscape and horizon. Watching the Jazz getting smoked by a no-star Sacramento squad in SL. That doesn't mean much in itself, but I don't think much of a Cody Williams, Kyle Filipowski, Isaiah Collier draft class. I just straight up don't. Last year's class of Keyonte George and Taylor Hendricks may be better, but KG is highly inefficient and a poor defender, and Hendricks is a difficult archetype even if he puts it together.

They have a very good coach and a one-time All-Star getting this team too many wins somehow. They have picks incoming next year from Minny and Cleveland that won't be very good. They owe a pick to OKC protected 1-10/1-8, after which the debt is extinguished. They owe all their SRPs from 2025-2028 strangely enough. They get a highly protected LAL first in 2027 and then swaps and outrights from Minnesota and Cleveland until the end of the decade.

Those late picks should start getting good. Right now, though, they're in no-man's land. Markkanen is 27. By the time any future picks start turning out, he'll be into his thirties. I guess it's hard to get good stars to stick in SLC, but really not, when you control their rights. Only reason Gobert and Mitchell were broken up was their success was fairly capped off.

Ainge really has to get off Markkanen. It doesn't make any sense to keep him. Maxing isn't an issue due to their cap situation, but why? Feels like getting the best package he can and moving on with a bad young team into a good draft is the way to go. My guess is he and GSW will find a deal in the middle before the extension and then we're done, but it feels like trouble if he extends the guy and is stuck with a piece harder to move due to the larger salary.

[Mr. Body]

Latest from Charania:

The Jazz don’t want to trade Lauri Markkanen, but if the Warriors want to put in a Brandin Podziemski, and — from what I’m told — 3 first round picks, 3-4 unprotected pick swaps, 3-4 second round picks…

Maybe ownership is demanding at least some competitive games. Regardless, this package is ludicrous. I'd say Podz, two FRPs and a swap or two from Warriors or they walk away. At this point I just want Utah to finish above Atlanta.

[DPG21920]

Ainge :lol

[DAF86]

Like said in earlier posts, Ainge is just bluffing. There's no way they are seriously expecting to get promising young players, 3 first round picks, another 3 swaps and 4 2nd rounders.

I also doubt he's dumb enough to want to keep Markkanen and stay in mediocrity for ever.

I fully expect Lauri to get traded, even if they do resing him in August. That's probably what Ainge is waiting for, resigning Markk so that they can trade him for a bigger price.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I agree that Ainge and Zanik are bluffing. I'm not even sure they want to max out Markkanen because it might be challenging to keep his trade value high, it's an additional risk for them.

That said, if the teams going for him are Warriors and Spurs, and with the great relationship that Pop and Kerr have, I doubt they'd bid against each other instead of having a conversation that doesn't include the Jazz side. I think the Jazz's best move would be to invite other parties to bid.

[widowmaker]

Our GM is doing plenty fine on the asset accumulation. The real question is whether he’ll know how to shift gears when it’s time to use the chips. Honestly, Angie is pretty trash at that part of the job.

I kindly disagree with your assessment.

[CGD]

I wonder what Ainge is looking at in terms of his team's landscape and horizon. Watching the Jazz getting smoked by a no-star Sacramento squad in SL. That doesn't mean much in itself, but I don't think much of a Cody Williams, Kyle Filipowski, Isaiah Collier draft class. I just straight up don't. Last year's class of Keyonte George and Taylor Hendricks may be better, but KG is highly inefficient and a poor defender, and Hendricks is a difficult archetype even if he puts it together.

They have a very good coach and a one-time All-Star getting this team too many wins somehow. They have picks incoming next year from Minny and Cleveland that won't be very good. They owe a pick to OKC protected 1-10/1-8, after which the debt is extinguished. They owe all their SRPs from 2025-2028 strangely enough. They get a highly protected LAL first in 2027 and then swaps and outrights from Minnesota and Cleveland until the end of the decade.

Those late picks should start getting good. Right now, though, they're in no-man's land. Markkanen is 27. By the time any future picks start turning out, he'll be into his thirties. I guess it's hard to get good stars to stick in SLC, but really not, when you control their rights. Only reason Gobert and Mitchell were broken up was their success was fairly capped off.

Ainge really has to get off Markkanen. It doesn't make any sense to keep him. Maxing isn't an issue due to their cap situation, but why? Feels like getting the best package he can and moving on with a bad young team into a good draft is the way to go. My guess is he and GSW will find a deal in the middle before the extension and then we're done, but it feels like trouble if he extends the guy and is stuck with a piece harder to move due to the larger salary.

Totally.

Ainge missed a chance to move Markenen at the trade deadline for max value, and will probably also regret not pulling the trigger when he had competing Warrior/Kings offers on the table weeks ago. The smart teams realize that time is not his friend and really aren’t pressed to do anything right now.

[JPB]

Yeah, people love to freak out over this stuff, but it's negotiation 101: Start unreasonably high, so when you eventually come down to high or relatively so, you can pretend to have compromised, when in reality that was always the inevitable endgame.

Presuming Markkanen is ready to extend on August 6th, the Jazz are not the ones facing any pressure here and even if he isn't, that deadline is still far enough away to play hardball for the time being.

This, Reason why George using Clips first "disrepectful offer" as an excuse to quit and go ring chase in Philly is pretty weak. That's basic negociations, what matters is he not first but the last offer.

[Ariel]

https://x.com/esidery/status/1813195039859683422
https://x.com/SiriusXMNBA/status/1813038343518912918

[MultiTroll]

Markenens defense?

I haven't seen enough Jazz games to know.

[Mr. Body]

With Lacob's latest comments on certain "other" team executives being extremely difficult to work with wanting to "prove how smart they are" and "how illogical some of the parties on the other side are," it really seems like Ainge is determined to shoot himself right in the dick.

[LeBowen]

Markenens defense?

I haven't seen enough Jazz games to know.

Average in a good setup.
Good enough to guard opposition's second best frontcourt player.
Or to guard stretch bigs so Wemby isn't pulled out of the paint if we get him.


With Lacob's latest comments on certain "other" team executives being extremely difficult to work with wanting to "prove how smart they are" and "how illogical some of the parties on the other side are," it really seems like Ainge is determined to shoot himself right in the dick.

Yeah, because Lacob has every right to talk after every possible star in the universe alligning for him.

Warriors can't offer any picks outright other than 2025 and 2027 which aren't worth that much if GSW gets Markkanen and Steph is still playing on a solid level.
Can't offer 2029 or 2031 without removing protections on 2030 pick, which Wizards probably won't do.

Kuminga is solid, but he's a bad shooter up for extension next summer. Won't be worth the max, but won't take anything less. Not worth it for the Jazz.
Moody is an even worse shooter, smaller and can't playmake.
Podziemski looks solid, but worth one good FRP at the most.

That package isn't worth much, but the mainstream media desperately wants the Warriors to be relevant, so they're trying to sell the narrative of Ainge trying to fleece the Warriors.
If package is actually Podz+2025+2027+swaps, then Spurs can easily beat it with just Minnesota picks and one Hawks pick.

[baseline bum]

https://x.com/esidery/status/1813195039859683422
https://x.com/SiriusXMNBA/status/1813038343518912918

So Utah wants

Podz + crap salary
2026, 2028 firsts, 2030 first if it's top 20
2025, 2027, 2029, 2031 pick swaps

I don't think it's such a crazy ask since he can't get the 2029 and 2031 picks outright due to the Stepien Rule and the 2026 pick will be crap. They're going to need to find a way to get a 2030 first so can offer Ainge their unprotected 2029 and 2031 firsts if they want any hope of pulling Podz from the deal, so that it could be something like

Wiggins
2027, 2029, 2031 firsts
2026, 2028, 2030 pick swap

[Mr. Body]

Average in a good setup.
Good enough to guard opposition's second best frontcourt player.
Or to guard stretch bigs so Wemby isn't pulled out of the paint if we get him.



Yeah, because Lacob has every right to talk after every possible star in the universe alligning for him.

Warriors can't offer any picks outright other than 2025 and 2027 which aren't worth that much if GSW gets Markkanen and Steph is still playing on a solid level.
Can't offer 2029 or 2031 without removing protections on 2030 pick, which Wizards probably won't do.

Kuminga is solid, but he's a bad shooter up for extension next summer. Won't be worth the max, but won't take anything less. Not worth it for the Jazz.
Moody is an even worse shooter, smaller and can't playmake.
Podziemski looks solid, but worth one good FRP at the most.

That package isn't worth much, but the mainstream media desperately wants the Warriors to be relevant, so they're trying to sell the narrative of Ainge trying to fleece the Warriors.
If package is actually Podz+2025+2027+swaps, then Spurs can easily beat it with just Minnesota picks and one Hawks pick.

Why are you such a fan of Ainge? :rollin

[Mr. Body]

So Utah wants

Podz + crap salary
2026, 2028 firsts, 2030 first if it's top 20
2025, 2027, 2029, 2031 pick swaps

I don't think it's such a crazy ask since he can't get the 2029 and 2031 picks outright due to the Stepien Rule and the 2026 pick will be crap. They're going to need for find a way to get a 2030 first so can offer Ainge their unprotected 2029 and 2031 firsts if they want any hope of pulling Podz from the deal, so that it could be something like

Wiggins
2027, 2029, 2031 firsts
2026, 2028, 2030 pick swap

Clearly Lacob thinks it's crazy. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong, but the rest of the marketplace seems to have departed. (No, there's not likely any 'hidden' negotations with SAS, or else we'd hear about it somehow.)

Both the denizens of this board and Ainge have overrated Markkanen and his value truly is closer to what Dejounte Murray got from NOPe.

[LeBowen]

Why are you such a fan of Ainge? :rollin

I'm a fan of every GM who plays hardball in trades with big market teams.
I'm sick of big market GMs thinking that they can get all-star players with mediocre picks and salary dump contracts.

The time is working for Ainge here if those two picks are Warriors' best offer.
They're desperate to get someone and compete, they can't wait until the deadline because they'll be out of playoff picture.

Ainge losing value on Markkanen would suck, but Utah needs to tank either way and they've got a ton of assets already.


Both the denizens of this board and Ainge have overrated Markkanen and his value truly is closer to what Dejounte Murray got from NOPe.

A lot of DJ's value is in his contract that's among the best in the league.

[baseline bum]

I'm a fan of every GM who plays hardball in trades with big market teams.
I'm sick of big market GMs thinking that they can get all-star players with mediocre picks and salary dump contracts.

The time is working for Ainge here if those two picks are Warriors' best offer.
They're desperate to get someone and compete, they can't wait until the deadline because they'll be out of playoff picture.

Ainge losing value on Markkanen would suck, but Utah needs to tank either way and they've got a ton of assets already.



A lot of DJ's value is in his contract that's among the best in the league.

GSW can offer the 2026 and 2028 picks instead that are probably worth more to Ainge than the 2025 and 2027 would be. Still without the 2029 and 2031 outright instead of as swaps I don't see why Ainge wouldn't demand the farm.

[exstatic]

Average in a good setup.
Good enough to guard opposition's second best frontcourt player.
Or to guard stretch bigs so Wemby isn't pulled out of the paint if we get him.



Yeah, because Lacob has every right to talk after every possible star in the universe alligning for him.

Warriors can't offer any picks outright other than 2025 and 2027 which aren't worth that much if GSW gets Markkanen and Steph is still playing on a solid level.
Can't offer 2029 or 2031 without removing protections on 2030 pick, which Wizards probably won't do.

Kuminga is solid, but he's a bad shooter up for extension next summer. Won't be worth the max, but won't take anything less. Not worth it for the Jazz.
Moody is an even worse shooter, smaller and can't playmake.
Podziemski looks solid, but worth one good FRP at the most.

That package isn't worth much, but the mainstream media desperately wants the Warriors to be relevant, so they're trying to sell the narrative of Ainge trying to fleece the Warriors.
If package is actually Podz+2025+2027+swaps, then Spurs can easily beat it with just Minnesota picks and one Hawks pick.

UTA has near term picks. I’d offer the 20131 Minny pick, and our 2030 pick with the Minny and Dallas swaps attached, essentially a best of 3. That gives them full control of Minny’s picks out to the horizon to use in a potential Ant trade down the line.

[baseline bum]

UTA has near term picks. I’d offer the 20131 Minny pick, and our 2030 pick with the Minny and Dallas swaps attached, essentially a best of 3. That gives them full control of Minny’s picks out to the horizon to use in a potential Ant trade down the line.

Unlikely to get it done. I'd go with scott's proposed deal which is those two plus the Spurs 26 (w/ ATL swap) and Spurs 28 (w/ BOS swap), but would be willing change our 28 to the ATL 27 if needed.

[LeBowen]

UTA has near term picks. I’d offer the 20131 Minny pick, and our 2030 pick with the Minny and Dallas swaps attached, essentially a best of 3. That gives them full control of Minny’s picks out to the horizon to use in a potential Ant trade down the line.

Yeah, we went over it many times and more or less agreed on it.

Both MIN picks, CHI pick would surely be in the trade. Then probably '27 ATL because Spurs own picks wouldn't be worth much with Markkanen.
If it's both Keldon and Collins going the other way so we can give Markkanen a raise right away, also add CHA fake FRP (or is it with all the moves they made) and a handful of SRPs.

[exstatic]

Unlikely to get it done. I'd go with scott's proposed deal which is those two plus the Spurs 26 (w/ ATL swap) and Spurs 28 (w/ BOS swap), but would be willing change our 28 to the ATL 27 if needed.
Considering that it’s a two horse race, and the other horse only had a limited number of FRPs that’s a massive overpay.

I guess it comes down to how you evaluate Ainge/Utah’s position. I see them needing to trade him, no matter what Ainge says. If they keep Lauri, they’ll have to continue to sit him out and throttle him when he’s on the floor to avoid losing their pick over the next two seasons, when it’s 1-10 and 1-8 protected. That would put him at 29 years old when they actually try to win, and risks pissing him off and maybe publicly forcing their hand. From that perspective, it’s a better offer than GS’s two near term FRPs.

[Ariel]

So Utah wants

Podz + crap salary
2026, 2028 firsts, 2030 first if it's top 20
2025, 2027, 2029, 2031 pick swaps

I don't think it's such a crazy ask since he can't get the 2029 and 2031 picks outright due to the Stepien Rule and the 2026 pick will be crap. They're going to need to find a way to get a 2030 first so can offer Ainge their unprotected 2029 and 2031 firsts if they want any hope of pulling Podz from the deal, so that it could be something like

Wiggins
2027, 2029, 2031 firsts
2026, 2028, 2030 pick swap
I agree, I'd have GSW keep Podz, not a big fan of his plus he's more valuable to them, like picks are to Utah. The stone in their shoe is that '30 pick GSW owes to Washington, they should try to buy that using a few 2nd round picks or even Utah should pitch in and send them their crappiest first available, make it "worst of" but guaranteeing it'll convey to make it worthwhile for Washington. If I were Utah I would take out that '26 swap which has zero chance of conveying, and focus on their '25 pick instead. So maybe something like this:
unprotected picks in '25, '27, '29, '31 and unprotected swaps in '28 and '30. Let GSW keep Podz, the '26 swap, and the 2nd rounders that they'd use to buy back the pick, plus they get to pick the filler and salary dump a bit if they want to. Washington gets a bunch of 2nds or a crappy first but sure to convey and closer in time (in this latter case Utah gets a bunch of 2nds to make up for the pick they give up). Everybody gets most of what they want. That's IMO the basic structure of a deal between GSW and Utah.

[exstatic]

Clearly Lacob thinks it's crazy. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong, but the rest of the marketplace seems to have departed. (No, there's not likely any 'hidden' negotations with SAS, or else we'd hear about it somehow.)

Both the denizens of this board and Ainge have overrated Markkanen and his value truly is closer to what Dejounte Murray got from NOPe.

No, it is crazy. You’re mortgaging your franchise for a decade to soothe Steph, who’s almost out the door.

[Mr. Body]

A lot of DJ's value is in his contract that's among the best in the league.

Right, which is why Markkanen should pull about the same package. The big difference is salary might not make up for a theoretical jump in player value.

[spurraider21]

Like said in earlier posts, Ainge is just bluffing. There's no way they are seriously expecting to get promising young players, 3 first round picks, another 3 swaps and 4 2nd rounders.

I also doubt he's dumb enough to want to keep Markkanen and stay in mediocrity for ever.

I fully expect Lauri to get traded, even if they do resing him in August. That's probably what Ainge is waiting for, resigning Markk so that they can trade him for a bigger price.
they cant re-negotiate/extend until August 6, at which point he can no longer be traded for 6 months. the trade deadline is exactly 6 months after that date, on February 6. so if markkanen doesnt want to deal with midseason trade rumors, he can just wait until august 7 to sign that deal, and then he cannot be traded until next offseason.

if the jazz intend to trade him this season, it requires his cooperation. dont know if thats something theyve already comminciated or agreed upon

[exstatic]

Right, which is why Markkanen should pull about the same package. The big difference is salary might not make up for a theoretical jump in player value.

DJ had two years of control left. Markannen has one. It’s a huge difference, added with the weird date constraints, he probably shouldn’t pull a DJ level haul, which everyone agrees was an overpay.

[scott]

Sounds like GSW is trying to pressure Ainge through the media, and these “other teams are difficult to deal with” comments. IMO, this works right to our advantage. Let GSW and Ainge go at each other’s throats for a few more days/weeks to the point where they each want to tell each other to fuck off, and Good Guy Brian (Trademark pending) gets to sweep in with a fair offer that makes Utah happy and Ainge gets to FexEx a bag of dick shaped gummy bears to the Warriors offices.

[baseline bum]

Considering that it’s a two horse race, and the other horse only had a limited number of FRPs that’s a massive overpay.

I guess it comes down to how you evaluate Ainge/Utah’s position. I see them needing to trade him, no matter what Ainge says. If they keep Lauri, they’ll have to continue to sit him out and throttle him when he’s on the floor to avoid losing their pick over the next two seasons, when it’s 1-10 and 1-8 protected. That would put him at 29 years old when they actually try to win, and risks pissing him off and maybe publicly forcing their hand. From that perspective, it’s a better offer than GS’s two near term FRPs.

If Golden State can acquire a 2030 first from a third team their offer would be extremely compelling given the franchise will be in ruins when Curry retires so those 2029 and 2031 firsts would be insanely valuable.

[Darkwaters]

they cant re-negotiate/extend until August 6, at which point he can no longer be traded for 6 months. the trade deadline is exactly 6 months after that date, on February 6. so if markkanen doesnt want to deal with midseason trade rumors, he can just wait until august 7 to sign that deal, and then he cannot be traded until next offseason.

if the jazz intend to trade him this season, it requires his cooperation. dont know if thats something theyve already comminciated or agreed upon

Interesting. The plot thickens...

[buttsR4rebounding]

If GS was smart they'd ask for 4 teams Curry would like to play for and score a KD-plus haul and start the rebuild...

[scott]

Also a reminder for everyone, that the 6-mo moratorium is a two-way ban. That means that if renegotiates and extends on Aug 6, then he can’t be traded until the trade deadline AND if he is traded, then he needs to wait 6 months before renegotiating (and extending).

Because of the 6-month ban on renegotiating after trade, it means a few things:

1) of the teams supposedly in the mix for Lauri, no one will have cap space to renegotiate Lauri. Right now, only Utah and Detroit has cap space. The Pistons are not likely to enter this conversation.
2) The Spurs could theoretically create cap space, either now or in 6-months, by moving off Collins IN ADDITION to whatever salary they send out… but it would probably cost us something to dump him. GSW is well above the cap and isn’t going to be able to find a way to clear space.
3) Even if teams can clear space, the new salary floor only leaves them with the possibility of carrying around $15MM of cap space to renegotiate, which wouldn’t be able to get to the max on a 140% extension - so Lauri would be leaving some money on the table on his next deal in order to get a $15MM/yr raise for a few months (so, he wouldn’t get a full $15MM, he’d only get the pro-rated portion of that, which would be less than half… probably more like 25-33% (I haven’t done that math).
4) If Lauri was all about just getting as much cash as possible, without regard to anything else, his best move is to extend on Aug 6 with Utah. His next best option would be to renegotiate, but not extend, in 6 months then resign for the max using his bird rights. Ultimately, I think he gets traded without any kind of renegotiation, and then resigns for a Bird max before FA starts next offseason. Any team will be in position to do this, there are no advantages or disadvantages one team has over another in this regard UNLESS someone can create CapSpace to get to the floor in 6 months (which is harder to do mid-season, because no one else has capspace to absorb your bad salaries at that point. Utah and DET will be the only teams who MAYBE can do this, but Detroit is beginning to use up their space).

Lastly… the fact Utah is just holding onto their space suggests that they know they’re going to have to be doing something that involves taking back more salary than they are sending out at some point. Even if they wanted to Renegotiate and Extend Lauri on Aug 6, they don’t need as much space as they currently have.

[DPG21920]

Can’t spell or trade for Lauri without taking that L it seems.

[Ignazzz]

It seems Collins deal is awful

[Ariel]

Sounds like GSW is trying to pressure Ainge through the media, and these “other teams are difficult to deal with” comments. IMO, this works right to our advantage. Let GSW and Ainge go at each other’s throats for a few more days/weeks to the point where they each want to tell each other to fuck off, and Good Guy Brian (Trademark pending) gets to sweep in with a fair offer that makes Utah happy and Ainge gets to FexEx a bag of dick shaped gummy bears to the Warriors offices.
This is kind of what happened in the Donovan Mitchell trade, where Ainge negotiated with NYK for a while and things went south, then Cleveland swoop in and took him. Ainge is quite petty, if he can't get his "king's ransom" he might just take an offer that isn't really better just to stick it to whomever it is he feels wronged by. Pretty much only scenario I see where you could pry Lauri with a fair offer.

[BatManu20]

If GS was smart they'd ask for 4 teams Curry would like to play for and score a KD-plus haul and start the rebuild...

Definitely the smart thing to do, but not gonna happen tbh. Curry will retire a Warrior, even if it's ugly at the end like Kobe's tenure with the lakers was.

[MultiTroll]

If GS was smart they'd ask for 4 teams Curry would like to play for and score a KD-plus haul and start the rebuild...
It's not going to happen and i don't want the Spurs to give up too much for him but you bring up an interesting scenario.

What should the Spurs give up for Steffi Curry in the event the Golden Gummybears were willing to trade him?

[Seventyniner]

Definitely the smart thing to do, but not gonna happen tbh. Curry will retire a Warrior, even if it's ugly at the end like Kobe's tenure with the lakers was.

That or he will pull a Tony Parker and play his final season with Charlotte.

[scott]

Talking with some Warriors fans I know, they are pretty furious that the apparent sticking point in the deal seems to be Podz. It's kind of like some Spurs fans with Sochan. Both are cute developing players, but neither is good enough to pass up acquiring Lauri for :lol

Anyway, at this point my thought is that if the Spurs don't get Lauri (which I'd say is a 99% certainty that they won't) - I hope the Jazz do extend him on Aug 6 and plan on building around him. Lauri will be good enough to keep them from bottoming out, but not good enough to get them out of the treadmill on his own. The Jazz are a sneaky rival for us in Wemby's prime if the build the right way (and assuming we also build the right way) - so seeing them blow this opportunity and their warchest for nothing will be kind of nice. Will be good Karma retribution for Karl Malone's elbow.

[exstatic]

Talking with some Warriors fans I know, they are pretty furious that the apparent sticking point in the deal seems to be Podz. It's kind of like some Spurs fans with Sochan. Both are cute developing players, but neither is good enough to pass up acquiring Lauri for :lol

Anyway, at this point my thought is that if the Spurs don't get Lauri (which I'd say is a 99% certainty that they won't) - I hope the Jazz do extend him on Aug 6 and plan on building around him. Lauri will be good enough to keep them from bottoming out, but not good enough to get them out of the treadmill on his own. The Jazz are a sneaky rival for us in Wemby's prime if the build the right way (and assuming we also build the right way) - so seeing them blow this opportunity and their warchest for nothing will be kind of nice. Will be good Karma retribution for Karl Malone's elbow.

They’re not going to be very good,no matter what they try, being in the west. Do you really want OKC to get a pick in next years draft in the 11-14 range? I don’t.

[scott]

They’re not going to be very good,no matter what they try, being in the west. Do you really want OKC to get a pick in next years draft in the 11-14 range? I don’t.

If Lauri isn't artificially shut down again, I'd put them around the 7-8 lotto seed. I'd have BKN, WAS, DET, CHA, POR, CHI all worse.

Getting the 7th or 8th pick isn't what is going to turn Utah around. They need a Top 5 pick next year. And yes, of course they could always get lucky in the lottery... if they hang on to Lauri and somehow get lucky and pair him with Ace Bailey (for example), then they'll end up looking pretty smart for hanging on. But you'd think they'd want to maximize those odds, not hope for lottery luck.

If they did lose their pick next year in the 11-14 range (which would be HILARIOUS), I'm not overly concerned about it going to OKC either. It's OKC somehow getting a Top 5 pick and adding a premier talent that concerns me. Them getting Pick 11 and drafting more Ousmane Diengs or Nikola Topic's isn't going to make me lose sleep. Yes, they plucked Jalen Williams at 12, but they have plenty of whiffs in that range as well. OKC is good and is going to continue to be good. I don't want them adding Flagg or Bailey or Harper or Traore or Edgecomb... but them adding someone at 12 who probably won't play much anyway probably isn't going to be the ultimate dagger in our side.

[spurraider21]

id be fine moving sochan for lauri tbh :lol

but he'd have to be treated like a legit piece and not just salary/throw-in

while a sochan/lauri frontcourt would work on both ends, im not letting that be the dealbreaker. you're not finding 7 foot klay thompsons growing on trees. but the oversized "playmaker" types seem to be coming all the time.

[scott]

id be fine moving sochan for lauri tbh :lol

but he'd have to be treated like a legit piece and not just salary/throw-in

while a sochan/lauri frontcourt would work on both ends, im not letting that be the dealbreaker. you're not finding 7 foot klay thompsons growing on trees. but the oversized "playmaker" types seem to be coming all the time.

For sure, and I think most people here understand that. But I see some fans (more on places like Twitter, even one guy who has a pretty big Spurs YouTube channel) with "Not if it costs us Sochan" takes in regards to Lauri, which is pretty braindead.

[LeBowen]

Sochan is one season without improvement away from turning into a worthless asset.

I don't think most people understand how awful on offense Jeremy is and how much his non-existant offensive skillset sets us back on that end of the floor.
His EFG was worst on the entire roster last season. 22 win team. How awful is that? And he had the exact same EFG in his rookie year.
He made no improvements whatsoever other than his one-handed FT form.

Can't shoot whatsoever, average vertical athleticism, awful layup package and finishing around the rim, solid ballhandler for a wing, but has no playmaking skills.
As I posted in Mamu topic, he had better numbers and efficency than Jeremy if we look at games with more than 20 minutes played.

Yeah, Jeremy can be a good defender, but much like awful defenders who aren't worth keeping on the floor for their offense, Jeremy with his current skillset isn't worth keeping on the floor for his defense.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

The longer this drags, the higher the chance that Spurs gets Lauri.

There is no way spur let this opportunity pass by.

Lauri is not traded yet means that Spurs is reasonable and didn't over-bid against themselves.
Likely Wemby already called Lauri and invite him to join, and likely Lauri humbly and eagerly agreed. That's why Spurs is firm about the offer. Warriors is anxious but there is not much they can do. :clap

[scott]

Sochan is one season without improvement away from turning into a worthless asset.

I don't think most people understand how awful on offense Jeremy is and how much his non-existant offensive skillset sets us back on that end of the floor.
His EFG was worst on the entire roster last season and. 22 win team. How awful is that? And he had the exact same EFG in his rookie year.
He made no improvements whatsoever other than his one-handed FT form.

Can't shoot whatsoever, average vertical athleticism, awful layup package and finishing around the rim, solid ballhandler for a wing, but has no playmaking skills.
As I posted in Mamu topic, he had better numbers and efficency than Jeremy if we look at games with more than 20 minutes played.

Yeah, Jeremy can be a good defender, but much like awful defenders who aren't worth keeping on the floor for their offense, Jeremy with his current skillset isn't worth keeping on the floor for his defense.

This is bound to trigger some of the Sochan stans and sniffers who call this website home, but you are spot on. Maybe this is too nuanced a take for some on this board though, but that doesn't mean we should be looking to dump Sochan or that he can't improve... but that's a fair representation of where he is today. He still has some upside to the point where I believe you can probably still easily get a positive asset for him (like a late FRP or multiple SRPs), but it cracks me up to see folks say including Sochan for Lauri is a deal breaker. Right now, he's one of the worst starting PFs in the entire NBA. PER is an imperfect stat, but his (11.50) ranks 66th in the league amongst qualifying PFs, just right above ancient Jeff Green (and for those who don't know PER, 15.0 is an "average" NBA player, though PER undervalues defensive performance and the stat itself recognizes that).

[scott]

How exactly do tampering rules apply in the NBA? Could Wemby call Lauri and say "hey man I'd love to team up with you"? Is Sean Elliott an employee of the Spurs? Could he call his fellow Arizona Wildcat and put in a word?

Genuinely curious how this works, just for curiosity's sake.

[LeBowen]

How exactly do tampering rules apply in the NBA? Could Wemby call Lauri and say "hey man I'd love to team up with you"? Is Sean Elliott an employee of the Spurs? Could he call his fellow Arizona Wildcat and put in a word?

Genuinely curious how this works, just for curiosity's sake.

They apply if you get caught. :lol

[TD 21]

Talking with some Warriors fans I know, they are pretty furious that the apparent sticking point in the deal seems to be Podz. It's kind of like some Spurs fans with Sochan. Both are cute developing players, but neither is good enough to pass up acquiring Lauri for :lol

Podziemski, arrogant as he is (right on brand for those frauds) is much better than Sochan. He's clearly on track to be a starter and might even have "top starter" (cut below All-Star caliber) ceiling.

If the whole point of acquiring Markkanen is to win now, then giving him up makes no sense (especially given their lack of secondary shot creation beyond Golden Boy) . . . of course, the Jazz shouldn't care about that.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

How exactly do tampering rules apply in the NBA? Could Wemby call Lauri and say "hey man I'd love to team up with you"? Is Sean Elliott an employee of the Spurs? Could he call his fellow Arizona Wildcat and put in a word?

Genuinely curious how this works, just for curiosity's sake.

Tampering does not apply to players.

[lefty20]

How exactly do tampering rules apply in the NBA? Could Wemby call Lauri and say "hey man I'd love to team up with you"? Is Sean Elliott an employee of the Spurs? Could he call his fellow Arizona Wildcat and put in a word?

Genuinely curious how this works, just for curiosity's sake.

Players talk all the time, don't they?

There was the whole Russ/Nephew/PG-13 drama.

https://www.si.com/nba/clippers/news/kawhi-leonard-chose-paul-george-over-russell-westbrook

[exstatic]

Tampering does not apply to players.

The 2008 Olympics were where the Heatles hatched their plan for 2010. You’re not wrong.

[scott]

Didn't Dejounte mention he and Trae were texting ahead of his trade to ATL?

The sanctioned player-level tampering is wild. Wemby will be in Paris with a lot of top players. Maybe he can "hang out" with a few.

[sfernald]

This is bound to trigger some of the Sochan stans and sniffers who call this website home, but you are spot on. Maybe this is too nuanced a take for some on this board though, but that doesn't mean we should be looking to dump Sochan or that he can't improve... but that's a fair representation of where he is today. He still has some upside to the point where I believe you can probably still easily get a positive asset for him (like a late FRP or multiple SRPs), but it cracks me up to see folks say including Sochan for Lauri is a deal breaker. Right now, he's one of the worst starting PFs in the entire NBA. PER is an imperfect stat, but his (11.50) ranks 66th in the league amongst qualifying PFs, just right above ancient Jeff Green (and for those who don't know PER, 15.0 is an "average" NBA player, though PER undervalues defensive performance and the stat itself recognizes that).

You guys really need to turn in your ST cards at this point :lol:depressed:depressed

[ChumpDumper]

I'd absolutely trade Sochan for Lauri.

That's why Ainge is asking for Vassel.

[JPB]

This is bound to trigger some of the Sochan stans and sniffers who call this website home, but you are spot on. Maybe this is too nuanced a take for some on this board though, but that doesn't mean we should be looking to dump Sochan or that he can't improve... but that's a fair representation of where he is today. He still has some upside to the point where I believe you can probably still easily get a positive asset for him (like a late FRP or multiple SRPs), but it cracks me up to see folks say including Sochan for Lauri is a deal breaker. Right now, he's one of the worst starting PFs in the entire NBA. PER is an imperfect stat, but his (11.50) ranks 66th in the league amongst qualifying PFs, just right above ancient Jeff Green (and for those who don't know PER, 15.0 is an "average" NBA player, though PER undervalues defensive performance and the stat itself recognizes that).

Time will tell how they will all evolve, and I wish them good, but as of now the 2022 draft is objectively a complete failure.

[rankingtear]

Lauri needs Sochan, his whole thing is playing an oversized wing next to a versatile defender at the 4. So Sochan included in a Lauri package makes little sense. Sochan would likely be a long term piece if they trade for Lauri.

[scott]

Lauri needs Sochan, his whole thing is playing an oversized wing next to a versatile defender at the 4. So Sochan included in a Lauri package makes little sense. Sochan would likely be a long term piece if they trade for Lauri.

Let's see...

All-Star Wing without complimentary defensive role player who can't shoot next to him.

or

Complimentary defensive role role player who can't shoot with a complimentary role player next to him.

Tough call.

Basically, you're suggesting that Lauri and Barnes is worse than Sochan and Barnes. I'm gonna go ahead and say nah to that idea, dawg.

[Rosewood]

Let's see...

All-Star Wing without complimentary defensive role player who can't shoot next to him.

or

Complimentary defensive role role player who can't shoot with a complimentary role player next to him.

Tough call.

Basically, you're suggesting that Lauri and Barnes is worse than Sochan and Barnes. I'm gonna go ahead and say nah to that idea, dawg.
Barnes is not a long term piece and Sochan is 21 years old. The hope is Sochan will improve as well.

[LeBowen]

Barnes is not a long term piece and Sochan is 21 years old. The hope is Sochan will improve as well.

The problem with that hope is that there are very few indications he will.
His EFG was the same in both seasons, his percentage at the rim with dunks excluded is below 50% and his 2pt shooting outside the paint is in low 30s.
He's got nothing going for him.

Anyhow, even if we look at his good side, which is defense, for all intents and purposes, he won't be a wing on defense yet again.
Short-term CP3 won't be the point of attack defender, meaning Jeremy will be tasked with it again. But if he's chasing ballhandlers all over the floor, he's not a wing defender.

Long-term Castle is going to take that role, but two of them won't be able to play together until they improve their shooting.

I'm not giving up on Jeremy just for the sake of it and I'm not trading him away for anyone, but if Utah values him and wants him, it's a no brainer because the entire league has a grand total of 3 players who are shooting over 40% from 3pt range on high volume and are legit 7 footers.

Jeremy has potenial, but as things stand now, chances of him being nothing more than a solid bench player are way higher than him becoming a legit starter on a playoff team.

[scott]

The problem with that hope is that there are very few indications he will.
His EFG was the same in both seasons, his percentage at the rim with dunks excluded is below 50% and his 2pt shooting outside the paint is in low 30s.
He's got nothing going for him.

Anyhow, even if we look at his good side, which is defense, for all intents and purposes, he won't be a wing on defense yet again.
Short-term CP3 won't be the point of attack defender, meaning Jeremy will be tasked with it again. But if he's chasing ballhandlers all over the floor, he's not a wing defender.

Long-term Castle is going to take that role, but two of them won't be able to play together until they improve their shooting.

I'm not giving up on Jeremy just for the sake of it and I'm not trading him away for anyone, but if Utah values him and wants him, it's a no brainer because the entire league has a grand total of 3 players who are shooting over 40% from 3pt range on high volume and are legit 7 footers.

Jeremy has potenial, but as things stand now, chances of him being nothing more than a solid bench player are way higher than him becoming a legit starter on a playoff team.

And... it's obviously a lot easier to replace Sochan than it is Lauri.

[rankingtear]

Let's see...

All-Star Wing without complimentary defensive role player who can't shoot next to him.

or

Complimentary defensive role role player who can't shoot with a complimentary role player next to him.

Tough call.

Basically, you're suggesting that Lauri and Barnes is worse than Sochan and Barnes. I'm gonna go ahead and say nah to that idea, dawg.

Lauri is a polarizing player. If not in an ideal role roster setup, his defensive shortcomings would show up. One of the reasons UTA is the worst defensive team last year.

[LeBowen]

Lauri is a polarizing player. If not in an ideal role roster setup, his defensive shortcomings would show up. One of the reasons UTA is the worst defensive team last year.

Yeah, I'm sure they're the worst defensive team because of Lauri and not because they had an undersized guard duo and a 6'9 starting center.

[exstatic]

The problem with that hope is that there are very few indications he will.
His EFG was the same in both seasons, his percentage at the rim with dunks excluded is below 50% and his 2pt shooting outside the paint is in low 30s.
He's got nothing going for him.

Anyhow, even if we look at his good side, which is defense, for all intents and purposes, he won't be a wing on defense yet again.
Short-term CP3 won't be the point of attack defender, meaning Jeremy will be tasked with it again. But if he's chasing ballhandlers all over the floor, he's not a wing defender.

Long-term Castle is going to take that role, but two of them won't be able to play together until they improve their shooting.

I'm not giving up on Jeremy just for the sake of it and I'm not trading him away for anyone, but if Utah values him and wants him, it's a no brainer because the entire league has a grand total of 3 players who are shooting over 40% from 3pt range on high volume and are legit 7 footers.

Jeremy has potenial, but as things stand now, chances of him being nothing more than a solid bench player are way higher than him becoming a legit starter on a playoff team.

That’s not a stat, it’s a trope to bash a player. I’ve seen you post this at least a half dozen times, and it’s garbage. His percentage in the restricted area is 66%, so unless the NBA is thinking of outlawing dunks, your pseudo stat is a big nothing burger.

[LeBowen]

That’s not a stat, it’s a trope to bash a player. I’ve seen you post this at least a half dozen times, and it’s garbage. His percentage in the restricted area is 66%, so unless the NBA is thinking of outlawing dunks, your pseudo stat is a big nothing burger.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shooting

It says he was 193/316 in the restricted area, 61%.
68/76 on dunks, 125/240 without dunks in the restricted area.

The only reason I'm taking dunks away is because all of his dunks are uncontested. If he was dunking on people, fine.
Most of his points are easy because he's the player opposition pays the least attention to.

He's at 35% in the paint, want me to use that one?
Midrange is at 27%.

I'd say that he's easily one of the worst starters in the league on offense. Maybe even the worst if we don't include teams that are trying to lose games on purpose.
Elite shooters who are awful defenders can't stay on the floor in the playoffs, but same goes for awful offensive players. Especially if they're not bigs.

Again, I'm fine with him staying and Spurs trying to make him useful on offense, but if Ainge values him, I'd volunteer to take him to Utah myself.

[z0sa]

:lol people's love of garbage Sochan
:lol one of the most replaceable players in the League

[baseline bum]

:lol people's love of garbage Sochan
:lol one of the most replaceable players in the League

Yeah he's a pretty crap player so far. Still like his defensive potential enough to pay for two more years at the rookie scale and see if he ever develops into somebody, but would never even factor him into major roster decisions. Like don't draft Castle because how can he play with Sochan? Fuck that, if they can't play together Sochan goes to the second string.

[rankingtear]

Yeah, I'm sure they're the worst defensive team because of Lauri and not because they had an undersized guard duo and a 6'9 starting center.

They are not this bad last 2 years with Vando and the same undersized guard rotation and a worst defensive 5 in Olynyk. They are actually knocking on the playoff before they blew it up. CLE set the blueprint of a impactful version of Markannen, you treat him as a wing with a 4 that can defend down.

[baseline bum]

This is bound to trigger some of the Sochan stans and sniffers who call this website home, but you are spot on. Maybe this is too nuanced a take for some on this board though, but that doesn't mean we should be looking to dump Sochan or that he can't improve... but that's a fair representation of where he is today. He still has some upside to the point where I believe you can probably still easily get a positive asset for him (like a late FRP or multiple SRPs), but it cracks me up to see folks say including Sochan for Lauri is a deal breaker. Right now, he's one of the worst starting PFs in the entire NBA. PER is an imperfect stat, but his (11.50) ranks 66th in the league amongst qualifying PFs, just right above ancient Jeff Green (and for those who don't know PER, 15.0 is an "average" NBA player, though PER undervalues defensive performance and the stat itself recognizes that).

Forget PER, his VORP is -0.8, good for 560th out of 572 players in the league. I can already hear the 'but Sochan PG experiment' excuse, which is easily shot down pointing out he was 529 out of 539 with a -0.7 VORP in 2022-23.

[KobesAchilles]

Sochan being such a bad shooter hurts this team offensively. But I argue that Pop ruined him by playing him point guard. He basically made Sochan focus on a lot of shit he shouldn’t be focusing on.

Pop needs to hire Oberto. That’s who Sochan needs to model his offensive game after. I would say splitter but Sochan doesn’t have any touch around the rim. It’s sad how bad he is on offense. If the dude doesn’t get a dunk he pretty much can’t score the basketball in the paint. But anyways Sochan needs to learn angles, where to be, how
to do drop/dump passes in the paint. He needs to learn when to cut, when to go to the dunker spot, when to set a screen to get a man open. There’s such a nuance that Sochan has no idea how to actually play basketball. And I believe Oberto could teach that to him (and if not then Sochan isn’t going to make it as a starter).

[scott]

At this point, Sochan is basically Ben Simmons who doesn't defend as well, doesn't have the same playmaking ability, and doesn't have Simmons' finishing touch around the rim.

At least Sochan lacks whatever mental block Simmons has and still has time to improve.

[JPB]

Sochan being such a bad shooter hurts this team offensively. But I argue that Pop ruined him by playing him point guard. He basically made Sochan focus on a lot of shit he shouldn’t be focusing on.

Pop needs to hire Oberto. That’s who Sochan needs to model his offensive game after. I would say splitter but Sochan doesn’t have any touch around the rim. It’s sad how bad he is on offense. If the dude doesn’t get a dunk he pretty much can’t score the basketball in the paint. But anyways Sochan needs to learn angles, where to be, how
to do drop/dump passes in the paint. He needs to learn when to cut, when to go to the dunker spot, when to set a screen to get a man open. There’s such a nuance that Sochan has no idea how to actually play basketball. And I believe Oberto could teach that to him (and if not then Sochan isn’t going to make it as a starter).

He needs to get over himself.

[SpursFan86]

1815453836724891662

Sorry if this is just regurgitated news that’s already been posted here.

[NASpurs]

1815453836724891662


Sorry if this is just regurgitated news that’s already been posted here.

FTFY

[Dejounte]

Can this saga end already? August cant come soon enough to hear the news about Lauri re-signing

[scott]

With Summer League over and the Olympics ramping up, Ainge has to kick up the rumor mill again to try and drive GSW or SAS to blink and give up the bag. He knows he isn't extending Lauri, and the bottom falls out of his leverage come 8/6. I'd expect to hear more and more rumors, some real - most fabricated - as we approach 8/6.

[LeBowen]

We back!

Let's go over some scenarios, been a while. :rollin

Markkanen probably wants to get a raise and extend right away, meaning it has to be Keldon and Zach in the package.
While 4 FRPs is a lot, some of it is Zach's salary dump.
MIN pick and swap, '25 CHI and one Hawks pick seems like the most likely scenario. Maybe we get a worse picks back as I suggested because Utah has too many in some years.
Trading '26 SAS/ATL for '26 MIN/CLE would effectively be trading down by like 15 spots.
Anyhow, if raise and extend is the scenario, then we'd need a backup big, with none on the market. And very few realistic targets. Noone is giving away their cheap backup big and obtainable ones are on big contracts we wouldn't be able to match with Markkanen's raise.

If it's just a regular trade and Spurs hoping Markkanen extends, then Collins probably stays.

We'll get it done, fuck the Warriors!

[cd98]

Markannen is a good player, but multiple first round picks? We just duped Atlanta into giving multiple first round picks for DJM. Why are we going to make the same mistake as Atlanta? He's not a consistent all-star player. He's a good player, but not worth a king's ransom of first round picks. The problem with stockpiling assets is that any team you try and trade with feels inclined to ask for them all.

[scott]

We back!

Let's go over some scenarios, been a while. :rollin

Markkanen probably wants to get a raise and extend right away, meaning it has to be Keldon and Zach in the package.



Not quite the case. If Lauri gets a raise and extend, he can't be traded for 6 months, and he gets traded, he can't get a raise and extend for 6 months (and doing so would net him less than the max in 6 months because no team can carry enough cap space into February to raise and extend to the max). So, the Spurs still only need to send out matching salary in order to acquire Lauri - though Utah *can* absorb Keldon and Zach and give the Spurs extra cap room to go out and source a replacement.



While 4 FRPs is a lot, some of it is Zach's salary dump.
MIN pick and swap, '25 CHI and one Hawks pick seems like the most likely scenario. Maybe we get a worse picks back as I suggested because Utah has too many in some years.
Trading '26 SAS/ATL for '26 MIN/CLE would effectively be trading down by like 15 spots.
Anyhow, if raise and extend is the scenario, then we'd need a backup big, with none on the market. And very few realistic targets. Noone is giving away their cheap backup big and obtainable ones are on big contracts we wouldn't be able to match with Markkanen's raise.

If it's just a regular trade and Spurs hoping Markkanen extends, then Collins probably stays.

We'll get it done, fuck the Warriors!

Wonder what kind of backup bigs might be available for some SRPs. If we did move out Collins, then we'd have enough room to take on Lopez if we send out someone like Branham and Wesley. Wonder if 4 SRPs would be worthwhile for MIL to get the cap relief (though IDK how badly they need this, and they seem to want an FRP).

[LeBowen]

Markannen is a good player, but multiple first round picks? We just duped Atlanta into giving multiple first round picks for DJM. Why are we going to make the same mistake as Atlanta? He's not a consistent all-star player. He's a good player, but not worth a king's ransom of first round picks. The problem with stockpiling assets is that any team you try and trade with feels inclined to ask for them all.

He's not a star by himself, but he's one of the most efficent, if not the most efficent scorer in the league who doesn't need to stop the ball and a perfect fit with Wemby.
There are only two other players in the league who can compare with him if we talk size and elite 3pt shooting. KAT and Porzingis.



Not quite the case. If Lauri gets a raise and extend, he can't be traded for 6 months, and he gets traded, he can't get a raise and extend for 6 months (and doing so would net him less than the max in 6 months because no team can carry enough cap space into February to raise and extend to the max). So, the Spurs still only need to send out matching salary in order to acquire Lauri - though Utah *can* absorb Keldon and Zach and give the Spurs extra cap room to go out and source a replacement.

Really? I actually didn't realize he can't raise and extend if he gets traded.
Damn, we're never getting rid of Collins. :rollin


Wonder what kind of backup bigs might be available for some SRPs. If we did move out Collins, then we'd have enough room to take on Lopez if we send out someone like Branham and Wesley. Wonder if 4 SRPs would be worthwhile for MIL to get the cap relief (though IDK how badly they need this, and they seem to want an FRP).

I wouldn't mind Vucevic.
20 and 21 million in the next two years.
Collins and one of Branham/Wesley going the other way, alongside a handful of SRPs or even that fake FRP from Charlotte.

Cap will raise by ~$15M next season, one of CP3 or Tre will be gone, so will the other one of Branham/Wesley and Sidy.
Enough to stay under the cap with Markkanen's extension.

Basically legit playoff team for two seasons with veterans while our young guys grow.

CP3/Castle
Devin/Champagnie
Barnes/Jeremy
Lauri/Mamu
Wemby/Vucevic

[WaywardTexan]

As long as Ainge doesn't require us to throw Riley Minix into the deal, I think there is a viable path forward.

[scott]

Markannen is a good player, but multiple first round picks? We just duped Atlanta into giving multiple first round picks for DJM. Why are we going to make the same mistake as Atlanta? He's not a consistent all-star player. He's a good player, but not worth a king's ransom of first round picks. The problem with stockpiling assets is that any team you try and trade with feels inclined to ask for them all.

A fair and reasonable opinion, but I do implore folks to think about what we're talking about here. Unless the picks are high, the Spurs haven't exactly been crushing it in the draft lately. Would you trade Keldon, Primo, Wesley and Branham for Lauri? I would. That's 1 lotto pick and 3 late FRPs. What about Sochan + Primo + Keldon + Branham? I'd do that too. The jury is still out on Sochan, but right now Keldon and Vassell are the only non-obvious FRPs the Spurs have nailed since 2018.

Like I said, I think your take is fair and reasonable... but I do think we need to be careful not to overvalue FRPs. The mean outcome for picks after the top-10 is rotation level player or worse, and the variance among the top-10 is high enough to not place an over-reliance on expecting a high end outcome.

https://tonyelhabr.github.io/nba-decision_analysis/images/nba-draft-pick-value-research/saurabh-rane-draft-pick-vorp-box-plot.jpeg

Edit, if you like this chart and love thinking about the draft in terms of quantitative valuation - then this paper is for you: https://tonyelhabr.github.io/nba-decision_analysis/what-research-says-about-nba-draft-pick-value.html. This is a really excellent read for quant and data nerds, and I think is the kind of thinking that is generally missing amongst casual fans.

[scott]

He's not a star by himself, but he's one of the most efficent, if not the most efficent scorer in the league who doesn't need to stop the ball and a perfect fit with Wemby.
There are only two other players in the league who can compare with him if we talk size and elite 3pt shooting. KAT and Porzingis.

I'll refer folks to the "Understanding USG%" post, but indeed, Lauri is the most efficient scorer in the entire league based on Pts/36 per USG%, and frankly it's not even that close. Lauri's Pts/36 per USG% is 1.012, while Shai comes in at #2 at 0.970. The gap between Lauri (#1) and Shai (#2) is larger than the gap between Shai (#2) and Steph (#10 at 0.930).





Really? I actually didn't realize he can't raise and extend if he gets traded.
Damn, we're never getting rid of Collins. :rollin

Yeah, it's an interesting wrinkle in the CBA - but honestly it puts all the potential acquirers of Lauri on equal footing - so having cap space to raise and extend now is not relevant for acquiring teams.

I think we could probably still get off Collins, but it would mean more compensation going out or taking back John Collins, who would be a huge improvement to our PF depth but probably not capable of center minutes and not someone I want to pay 2/$52MM for.

[LeBowen]

I think we could probably still get off Collins, but it would mean more compensation going out or taking back John Collins, who would be a huge improvement to our PF depth but probably not capable of center minutes and not someone I want to pay 2/$52MM for.

I think he'd be fine as a backup center, three man rotation of Wemby, Lauri and Collins could work.
His issue was playing against starting bigs.

Lauri and Collins make $44.5M combined.
Keldon and our Collins are at $35.7M.
If CP3 wasn't an injury concern, I'd give the backup role to Castle and trade Tre because his salary is a perfect match and he's a positive asset.
Branham, Wesley and Sidy make $7.6M combined.

I don't think that scenario is an option.
And neither is Kessler.

[TD 21]

I think we could probably still get off Collins, but it would mean more compensation going out or taking back John Collins, who would be a huge improvement to our PF depth but probably not capable of center minutes and not someone I want to pay 2/$52MM for.

It's not happening either way, but to play along with the hypothetical: If Z. Collins is in the trade, it would stand to reason that either Kessler or J. Collins (they settled on him playing C midseason) would be too because they'd still have 3 rotational C options (Eubanks, making a representative salary).

[scott]

I think he'd be fine as a backup center, three man rotation of Wemby, Lauri and Collins could work.
His issue was playing against starting bigs.

Lauri and Collins make $44.5M combined.
Keldon and our Collins are at $35.7M.
If CP3 wasn't an injury concern, I'd give the backup role to Castle and trade Tre because his salary is a perfect match and he's a positive asset.
Branham, Wesley and Sidy make $7.6M combined.

I don't think that scenario is an option.
And neither is Kessler.

Don't rely completely on this - but I *think* the Spurs could take back 125% of what they send out, so if they sent out Keldon and Zollins @ $35.7MM they could take back $44.625MM, just enough to fit Lauri and Jollins.

[scott]

It's not happening either way, but to play along with the hypothetical: If Z. Collins is in the trade, it would stand to reason that either Kessler or J. Collins (they settled on him playing C midseason) would be too because they'd still have 3 rotational C options (Eubanks, making a representative salary).

Putting myself in Utah's shoes, moving Kessler doesn't make a ton of sense because he's the youngest bit on the roster with the most potential upside. Ideally, you'd think they'd want to keep that. He's also an elite rim protector (actually ranks above Wemby at #1 in BB Index's Rim Protection stat), so you'd think they'd be able to get a better asset for him somewhere rather than just including in a Lauri deal if they wanted to move him.

If they moved Jollins by sending him out with Lauri for Keldon and Zollins, they'd exacerbate their current salary floor problem. I think Jollins is actually useful for them from that perspective. At some point they're going to have to get moving on renting out cap space. I wonder if they are holding it open for now anticipating taking back more than they send out in a Lauri deal. Like taking Wiggins in addition to Kuminga or Podz, for example.

All just speculation on my part.

[Joseph Kony]

1815453836724891662

Sorry if this is just regurgitated news that’s already been posted here.
thats one way to make sure Paul gets his #3 jersey tbh

[scott]

At this point I highly doubt we get Lauri, but the Spurs have appeared to have made a good faith and that is satisfying.

My only quest at this point is to put an end to the brain dead narrative that Lauri isn't a good player or wouldn't be a good fit :lol

[TD 21]

Putting myself in Utah's shoes, moving Kessler doesn't make a ton of sense because he's the youngest bit on the roster with the most potential upside. Ideally, you'd think they'd want to keep that. He's also an elite rim protector (actually ranks above Wemby at #1 in BB Index's Rim Protection stat), so you'd think they'd be able to get a better asset for him somewhere rather than just including in a Lauri deal if they wanted to move him.

If they moved Jollins by sending him out with Lauri for Keldon and Zollins, they'd exacerbate their current salary floor problem. I think Jollins is actually useful for them from that perspective. At some point they're going to have to get moving on renting out cap space. I wonder if they are holding it open for now anticipating taking back more than they send out in a Lauri deal. Like taking Wiggins in addition to Kuminga or Podz, for example.

All just speculation on my part.

Agreed. That's why the most likely scenario (even though I'm steadfast it won't happen period) probably doesn't involve Z. Collins or either of the Jazz bigs.

[baseline bum]

Markannen is a good player, but multiple first round picks? We just duped Atlanta into giving multiple first round picks for DJM. Why are we going to make the same mistake as Atlanta? He's not a consistent all-star player. He's a good player, but not worth a king's ransom of first round picks. The problem with stockpiling assets is that any team you try and trade with feels inclined to ask for them all.

What, you think you're getting him for one first and Keldon?

[lefty]

no, pls Dude is 27 and by the time Wemby hits his prime, Lauri may not be the player he is now


Ainge is gonna want those nice draft picks, he is not messing around

[Mnky]

A fair and reasonable opinion, but I do implore folks to think about what we're talking about here. Unless the picks are high, the Spurs haven't exactly been crushing it in the draft lately. Would you trade Keldon, Primo, Wesley and Branham for Lauri? I would. That's 1 lotto pick and 3 late FRPs. What about Sochan + Primo + Keldon + Branham? I'd do that too. The jury is still out on Sochan, but right now Keldon and Vassell are the only non-obvious FRPs the Spurs have nailed since 2018.

Like I said, I think your take is fair and reasonable... but I do think we need to be careful not to overvalue FRPs. The mean outcome for picks after the top-10 is rotation level player or worse, and the variance among the top-10 is high enough to not place an over-reliance on expecting a high end outcome.

https://tonyelhabr.github.io/nba-decision_analysis/images/nba-draft-pick-value-research/saurabh-rane-draft-pick-vorp-box-plot.jpeg

Edit, if you like this chart and love thinking about the draft in terms of quantitative valuation - then this paper is for you: https://tonyelhabr.github.io/nba-decision_analysis/what-research-says-about-nba-draft-pick-value.html. This is a really excellent read for quant and data nerds, and I think is the kind of thinking that is generally missing amongst casual fans.

This. The value of 1sts is extremely subjective, and you only have 12 spots on the team. Multiple 1st and seconds in the next few years you have to get rid of. Multiple players you already have, you have to get rid of. The management of assets doesn't benefit you to let them burn out on rookie contracts and leave constantly unless you're a contender already.

Getting legitimate stability for wemby for the next 5 years would be great for his development and morale.

Wemby is the focus. He's the franchise. You help him, not just try to win, but be happy. Sure Lauri makes him happier than a primo, wesley, branham package.

[baseline bum]

Don't rely completely on this - but I *think* the Spurs could take back 125% of what they send out, so if they sent out Keldon and Zollins @ $35.7MM they could take back $44.625MM, just enough to fit Lauri and Jollins.

Nah nah let's not take any chances and include another $3.2 million in salary just in case. #22's an elite tank commander PG who led us to that 18 game losing streak.

[scott]

Nah nah let's not take any chances and include another $3.2 million in salary just in case. #22's an elite tank commander PG who led us to that 18 game losing streak.

You are right. We should include Branham just to be safe :lol

[exstatic]

no, pls Dude is 27 and by the time Wemby hits his prime, Lauri may not be the player he is now


Ainge is gonna want those nice draft picks, he is not messing around

There’s not going to be one group of players that go through Wemby’s career with him. Didn’t even happen with Tim. From the 99 title to the 05 title, the entire roster besides Tim, churned.

You don’t not get a brutally efficient player because he’s 27. It’s more likely that the Spurs trade him before he’s 31-32 because of apron issues than he gets too old.

[Degoat]

thats one way to make sure Paul gets his #3 jersey tbh

As crazy as that sounds, it’s kinda interesting lol even tho most know that Chris Paul is shell of his former self. It’s kinda important to know his jersey number because I know a lot people have told me personally they’re wanting to buy a Paul jersey… lol

[exstatic]

At this point I highly doubt we get Lauri, but the Spurs have appeared to have made a good faith and that is satisfying.

My only quest at this point is to put an end to the brain dead narrative that Lauri isn't a good player or wouldn't be a good fit :lol

I didn’t like him in Chicago, and he really didn’t impress in Cleveland, either, but if you can’t see that he hit another whole gear these last two years, you’re just a hater.

[baseline bum]

You are right. We should include Branham just to be safe :lol

You start the double deuce at PG you're gonna lose the game, no better way for Utah to assure themselves of a top 5 pick in a loaded draft. And all it costs them is Lauri.

[SpurSpike]

I wonder if Lauri has a preferred destination? The longer this takes and if the proposed trades with other teams are semi equal it could come down to where he prefers to go. Say what you will about the NBA being a business and all but it does send a signal to other players when a team does right by the players on their team.

[scott]

I wonder if Lauri has a preferred destination? The longer this takes and if the proposed trades with other teams are semi equal it could come down to where he prefers to go. Say what you will about the NBA being a business and all but it does send a signal to other players when a team does right by the players on their team.

While the Spurs seem to always do right by players, I wonder if Ainge is the kind of mother fucker who doesn't give a shit, and doesn't even both to ask.

[ducks]

Let’s win
The point is to win a title not to teach players about life !

[ducks]

While the Spurs seem to always do right by players, I wonder if Ainge is the kind of mother fucker who doesn't give a shit, and doesn't even both to ask.

He is an old white dude ! He could care less !
He want to win !
It is about winning !!
The goal is to win not come in second place !

[ginobilized]

Lauri would definitely help this team learn how to win, which should make Wemby (and the city of SA) happy.
He would also turn Sochan into a bench piece which would make us much better. I hope it works out. If not, are we going to tank and get a player with similar skill, efficiency and fit in next year's draft or free agency? I don't think so.
I'm open to hearing if someone thinks there's another available player in the next year or so that would be better?

As others have mentioned, Keldon, Collins and 3 firsts could work. Probably 4 firsts with just Keldon. I guess it comes down to which first round picks.

I say do it, RC!

[baseline bum]

While the Spurs seem to always do right by players, I wonder if Ainge is the kind of mother fucker who doesn't give a shit, and doesn't even both to ask.

Ask Isaiah Thomas

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Scott makes some great points in this thread.

Keldon, Zollins and multiple FRP’s aren’t too much to give up. This trade on top of Barnes and CP puts the Spurs back in the post season conversation. Wemby will make the Spurs more attractive to supporting cast players moving forward. We’ll still have plenty of future draft capital.

You do this deal if you’re San Antonio.

[John B]

What the fuck I’m in

[scott]

Scott makes some great points in this thread.

Keldon, Zollins and multiple FRP’s aren’t too much to give up. This trade on top of Barnes and CP puts the Spurs back in the post season conversation. Wemby will make the Spurs more attractive to supporting cast players moving forward. We’ll still have plenty of future draft capital.

You do this deal if you’re San Antonio.

The Chopper endorsement! One of my finest accomplishments in 20+ years on this website.

[cd98]

Nah nah let's not take any chances and include another $3.2 million in salary just in case. #22's an elite tank commander PG who led us to that 18 game losing streak.

I don't disagree with some of the takes about non-lottery first rounders. Most don't make it in the league long term, so why not trade them away for a player that has more star potential? But the next draft is loaded with talent and getting Markannen almost assuredly requires trading the Atlanta Hawks 2025 unprotected pick and that's one I'd want to hold onto because if the Spurs got Markannen, it wouldn't make them a real contender, but it would take them out of the running for the lottery with their own pick and if that Atlanta is in the top 6, there is a good chance that the player in that draft is better than Markannen with a couple extra years of relatively cheap salary.

[baseline bum]

I don't disagree with some of the takes about non-lottery first rounders. Most don't make it in the league long term, so why not trade them away for a player that has more star potential? But the next draft is loaded with talent and getting Markannen almost assuredly requires trading the Atlanta Hawks 2025 unprotected pick and that's one I'd want to hold onto because if the Spurs got Markannen, it wouldn't make them a real contender, but it would take them out of the running for the lottery with their own pick and if that Atlanta is in the top 6, there is a good chance that the player in that draft is better than Markannen with a couple extra years of relatively cheap salary.

Spurs would have to get lucky to get someone better than Markannen with Atlanta's pick, but yeah I'm not offering any 2025 picks if I'm the Spurs. A serious offer I'd make is

SPURS GET
Lauri Markannen
John Collins

JAZZ GET
Keldon Johnson
Zach Collins
Malaki Branham
Spurs 2026 unprotected first with unprotected ATL swap
Spurs 2028 unprotected first with top 1 protected Boston pick swap
Spurs 2030 unprotected first with unprotected Dallas pick swap + top 1 protected Minnesota pick swap
Minnesota 2031 unprotected first

and I'd be willing to up my offer for Markannen + Collins to

JAZZ GET
Keldon Johnson
Zach Collins
Jeremy Sochan
Spurs 2026 unprotected first with unprotected ATL swap
Spurs 2028 unprotected first with top 1 protected Boston pick swap
Spurs 2030 unprotected first with unprotected Dallas pick swap + top 1 protected Minnesota pick swap
Minnesota 2031 unprotected first

-or-

JAZZ GET
Keldon Johnson
Zach Collins
Malaki Branham
Spurs 2026 unprotected first with unprotected ATL swap
Atlanta 2027 unprotected first
Spurs 2030 unprotected first with unprotected Dallas pick swap + top 1 protected Minnesota pick swap
Minnesota 2031 unprotected first

[ismael-robert]

So now we got Scott, dejounte and Ed confirmed alts...all wound up in some sort of weird sweaty tryst

[scott]

So now we got Scott, dejounte and Ed confirmed alts...all wound up in some sort of weird sweaty tryst

All three Alts logged in at the same time is what caused the Crowdstrike outage

[ducks]

Pop for him straight up
Oh wait pop is to overrated jazz will turn the deal down

[JPB]

Markannen is a good player, but multiple first round picks? We just duped Atlanta into giving multiple first round picks for DJM. Why are we going to make the same mistake as Atlanta? He's not a consistent all-star player. He's a good player, but not worth a king's ransom of first round picks. The problem with stockpiling assets is that any team you try and trade with feels inclined to ask for them all.

Yeah, let's keep all those picks for Luka or Giannis. 100% sure they're coming.

And players like Lauri are falling for trees, and at a much cheaper price nowadays, as we've seen with recent trades around the NBA. Let's keep on passing any good player available anyway, we'll draft our entire contending roster through the draft, we're so good at that.

[Rocalcio]

He is an old white dude ! He could care less !
He want to win !
It is about winning !!
The goal is to win not come in second place !

How is the color of his skin relevant ? Pop and RC are also white…

[BillMc]

thats one way to make sure Paul gets his #3 jersey tbh
:lol

[R. DeMurre]

Scott makes some great points in this thread.

Keldon, Zollins and multiple FRP’s aren’t too much to give up. This trade on top of Barnes and CP puts the Spurs back in the post season conversation. Wemby will make the Spurs more attractive to supporting cast players moving forward. We’ll still have plenty of future draft capital.

You do this deal if you’re San Antonio.


I'd bet neither Keldon or Collins are on this team in three years either way, so I don't even view it as losing them. They're as good as gone-- it's just a matter of how & when.

[cd98]

Spurs would have to get lucky to get someone better than Markannen with Atlanta's pick, but yeah I'm not offering any 2025 picks if I'm the Spurs. A serious offer I'd make is

SPURS GET
Lauri Markannen
John Collins

JAZZ GET
Keldon Johnson
Zach Collins
Malaki Branham
Spurs 2026 unprotected first with unprotected ATL swap
Spurs 2028 unprotected first with top 1 protected Boston pick swap
Spurs 2030 unprotected first with unprotected Dallas pick swap + top 1 protected Minnesota pick swap
Minnesota 2031 unprotected first

and I'd be willing to up my offer for Markannen + Collins to

JAZZ GET
Keldon Johnson
Zach Collins
Jeremy Sochan
Spurs 2026 unprotected first with unprotected ATL swap
Spurs 2028 unprotected first with top 1 protected Boston pick swap
Spurs 2030 unprotected first with unprotected Dallas pick swap + top 1 protected Minnesota pick swap
Minnesota 2031 unprotected first

-or-

JAZZ GET
Keldon Johnson
Zach Collins
Malaki Branham
Spurs 2026 unprotected first with unprotected ATL swap
Atlanta 2027 unprotected first
Spurs 2030 unprotected first with unprotected Dallas pick swap + top 1 protected Minnesota pick swap
Minnesota 2031 unprotected first

But if you are the Jazz do you want pick swaps in the near future? It’s likely Jazz will be in the lottery and never use the pick swaps. Not sure they want our role players either.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

But if you are the Jazz do you want pick swaps in the near future? It’s likely Jazz will be in the lottery and never use the pick swaps. Not sure they want our role players either.

All of these swaps are on Spurs picks so Utah’s position doesn’t matter. It’s better for them because these swaps on other teams’ picks means they’ll be getting the ‘best of’ pick and are thus more valuable than a single team’s unprotected pick.

[99 Problems]

:cell I think it’s happening

[baseline bum]

But if you are the Jazz do you want pick swaps in the near future? It’s likely Jazz will be in the lottery and never use the pick swaps. Not sure they want our role players either.

They'd be using the Spurs pick swap so 2026 becomes best of Spurs/Hawks, 2028 best of Spurs/Celtics, 2030 best of Spurs/Mavs/Wolves. The role players are just salary fodder to make the trade legal.

[tonight...you]

:cell I think it’s happening
?

[Pauleta14]

While the Spurs seem to always do right by players, I wonder if Ainge is the kind of mother fucker who doesn't give a shit, and doesn't even both to ask.

Wasn't he the GM that did Isaiah Thomas dirty after he got injured??

[LeBowen]

Since we're back at making potential trade scenarios, I'll repost this from a couple of weeks back. With some updates because stuff happened since.

How would you value our picks?

'26 ATL/SAS swap and '27 ATL are easily the most valuable, I'd argue those two are more valuable than 4 FRPs Knicks traded for Bridges.
'25 ATL isn't as valuable as those with Trae still on the roster.
'25 SAS loses value if we trade it for Markkanen.
'27 and onwards SAS picks are hopefully well into 20s.
'25 CHI could convey because Bulls hate tanking and they shouldn't be among worst 8 teams in both '26 and '27.
'25 CHA is probably not going to convey, but they did improve their roster significantly and they might just make the play-in since so many East teams are going to blatantly tank.

'28 BOS and '30 DAL swaps probably won't be great, maybe if DAL implodes.
'30 MIN swap and '31 MIN top1 protected are a complete unknown, I can see them dropping out of contention by then because this is the best roster they can put together and 7 years is a long time to go.
I'd say those MIN picks would be up there with ATL picks for Ainge, he wants to control MIN's future even more.

Since Jazz has so many FRPs, there are also some options to effectively trade down.
For example, trading '26 ATL/SAS for '26 MIN/CLE would still have a lot of value for them.
Or trading '27 ATL for '27 CLE.
Even if we end up with no FRP in '26 draft it's not the end of the world because we have 5 SRPs that year and could easily move up to mid-20s if we really like someone.

My opinion still hasn't changed, in that topic Dejounte made I went over every single wing in the league with potential high end starter or all-star upside, if we talk the next two offseasons Markkanen and Naz Reid are the only realistic targets that wouldn't murder our cap situation, wouldn't cost us Devin and are still fairly young.
With all the picks we own, Markkenen is a no-brainer.
If we don't get him, trading away #8 and not taking a swing with any of those young forwards will look idiotic.

[exstatic]

While the Spurs seem to always do right by players, I wonder if Ainge is the kind of mother fucker who doesn't give a shit, and doesn't even both to ask.

I think Ainge has done well in acquiring picks, but he seems so determined to win trades that he’s probably missed out on some even trades that could have benefited the Celtics. Ainge put the building blocks in place, but his teams were incomplete. I’ll give him credit for White, but Stevens made the key player acquisition trades for Jrue and Porzingas that put them over the top.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Spurs would have to get lucky to get someone better than Markannen with Atlanta's pick, but yeah I'm not offering any 2025 picks if I'm the Spurs. A serious offer I'd make is

SPURS GET
Lauri Markannen
John Collins

JAZZ GET
Keldon Johnson
Zach Collins
Malaki Branham
Spurs 2026 unprotected first with unprotected ATL swap
Spurs 2028 unprotected first with top 1 protected Boston pick swap
Spurs 2030 unprotected first with unprotected Dallas pick swap + top 1 protected Minnesota pick swap
Minnesota 2031 unprotected first

and I'd be willing to up my offer for Markannen + Collins to

JAZZ GET
Keldon Johnson
Zach Collins
Jeremy Sochan
Spurs 2026 unprotected first with unprotected ATL swap
Spurs 2028 unprotected first with top 1 protected Boston pick swap
Spurs 2030 unprotected first with unprotected Dallas pick swap + top 1 protected Minnesota pick swap
Minnesota 2031 unprotected first

-or-

JAZZ GET
Keldon Johnson
Zach Collins
Malaki Branham
Spurs 2026 unprotected first with unprotected ATL swap
Atlanta 2027 unprotected first
Spurs 2030 unprotected first with unprotected Dallas pick swap + top 1 protected Minnesota pick swap
Minnesota 2031 unprotected first

That's a desperate overpay. If Spurs offered something close to that, Lauri would have been a spur next day. Because nobody else is able to make an offer even close to this.

The fact that Jazz is still negotiating with Warriors for 2 Podziemsk + 2 picks means spurs didn't offer that much.

You're like buying a Tesla for $100k. Really nice car, but you don't have double pay just because you have the money.