Official Trade Deadline Speculation Thread

[MaNu4Tres]

Yeah, we've been on the same page as far as team needs. But I really don't think they can find all they need in a player or two; those needs were assuming the foundation was still sound and strong from their championship past. Sadly, they've lost too much in terms of intangibles and "corporate knowledge" in the supporting cast for them to truly get where they need to be.

They're just an ill-fitted team in regards to the positions and skillsets of their best, most productive, and-or needed players after the Big 3.

I may be crazy and biased but a part of me believes a move or two could put this team in contention for the cities 5th. Reason I say that is because I don't believe there is one unbeatable team in the league right now. I think every team has been inconsistent to a degree all year and have additions who have been disappointing ( Sheed, Daniels; Boston), ( Artest ;Lakers), (Carter,Bass; Magic), (Parker, Moon, Shaq; Cavs), (Jefferson; Spurs).

Spurs just need to improve their 8-9 man playoff rotation. Instead of using the musical chair method and giving players 7-12 all spot minutes like he's managing a CYO team. Having less players in the rotation makes the total 48 minute attack more effective in my opinion. Especially when all the players in your rotation can bring more than one thing to the table. That's something Spurs don't have. Players 8-15 are one trick pony's. They need to improve the quality in their depth at spots 8-9 spots most specifically... I've always said the longer the rotation, the longer it will take to make the chemistry and personnel click.( Especially with new personnel). And I stand by it.

A suggested rotation for the playoffs that I think could contend would be something like this:

Let's say Spurs pull off the Mason/Bonner for Turiaf/ Bell trade and Bell was 100 percent by the beginning of March...


Parker 33-38 minutes
Bell 25-28 minutes
Jefferson 30-33 minutes
Tim 35-40 minutes
McDyess 23-27 minutes


Hill 28-32 minutes
Manu 28-34 minutes
Blair 22-25 minutes
Turiaf 15-20 minutes

Ratliff DNP-Barring Injury/Foul Tr.
Bogans DNP Barring Inj/ FT
Finley DNP- Barring Inj/FT

[Ice009]

I still think a deal involving RMJ and Bell is most likely what is "close".

If we make a smaller deal like that is there any reason why when then can't turn around and push an RJ trade HARD up until the deadline? Would you still look to move RJ if we make that Bell deal?

[timaios]

Seriously, when was the last time a team struggled all season and miraculously won the title at the end ?

The 1994-95 Houston Rockets... maybe ?

And... ?

I can't see the 2009-10 Spurs win the title. There's something wrong with that team.
A little trade could help them for a round or two in the playoffs but no way for the title.
I am not even sure a Chris Bosh for Mason+Bonner+Finley... would be enough for the :lobt:.

[benefactor]

If we make a smaller deal like that is there any reason why when then can't turn around and push an RJ trade HARD up until the deadline? Would you still look to move RJ if we make that Bell deal?
It's probably pretty pointless. The only way RJ can be moved is for a player with a long term contract that a team doesn't want to commit to any longer. They only two possibilities are Washington and Philly...and I don't see either of them being desperate enough to pay RJ 15 million next season just to get rid of thier players.

[SpurNation]

It's probably pretty pointless. The only way RJ can be moved is for a player with a long term contract that a team doesn't want to commit to any longer. They only two possibilities are Washington and Philly...and I don't see either of them being desperate enough to pay RJ 15 million next season just to get rid of thier players.

Interesting article:
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/sixers/20100205_Bob_Cooney__Time_for_Sixers_to_make_a_fre sh_start.html



I've stated many times before that Iguodala is just not in the right role here. He is being asked to be the star of this team, when actually he would be better suited as a co-star, or even better, a third option on a team that has a couple of stars. Nothing against Iguodala, who continually puts up good numbers even if his on-court personality doesn't draw in fans, but get what you can for him and do it immediately. Dallas, Cleveland, Phoenix, whoever it is, get what you can and cut ties and, hopefully, take little salary back beyond this year.
This Sixers team needs to both come into money and not make the playoffs - maybe not be in playoff contention for a couple of years, to truly turn things around from what was stubborn mediocrity that has now turned into bad.


Bolded part is ironic. Jefferson by contrast needs to be one of the stars of a team and Iggy fits the description perfectly to what the Spurs need.

If it is true that the team would be looking a couple of years before being in contention...RJ's contract just might be perfect for the Sixer's to take on when at the end of 10-11 RJ would be off their books.

I really like the trade manu4tres submitted earlier:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjlh3dv

[Spursfanfromafar]

My two pennies for prospective trades -

Target - Get Camby, a shot blocker/rebounder

Clippers will want a talent that will suit their team and someone who can replace the level of Camby's play for next season as well. I am not sure they will try penny-pinching, for if thats the case, Camby will continue to stay with the Clips as an expiring.

The best that the Spurs can offer the Clips without touching their core three must be Jefferson (provided they get someone to replace Jefferson). If I was Buford, I will try burning my phone lines with the T'wolves simultaneously to pry Ryan Gomes by offering an expiring in either Bonner or Mason. If that is clinched..then I can sell Jefferson to the Clips with an adequate replacement in Gomes.

To sweeten the deal with the Clips, I will offer Mahinmi as another shot blocker/young to play along with DeAndre Jordan and Kaman in a decent front court that will feature Griffin next year. If needed, will add a second round pick as well.

So here goes -

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjx72by

Spurs - trade Jefferson + Mahinmi + second round pick for 2010
get Camby + Rasual Butler + Mardy Collins (all expirings and Butler to play as a decent 2/3)

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yh8xpqs

Spurs - trade Matt Bonner (or Roger Mason)
get Ryan Gomes from T'wolves.

[MaNu4Tres]

So here goes -

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjx72by

Spurs - trade Jefferson + Mahinmi + second round pick for 2010
get Camby + Rasual Butler + Mardy Collins (all expirings and Butler to play as a decent 2/3)

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yh8xpqs

Spurs - trade Matt Bonner (or Roger Mason)
get Ryan Gomes from T'wolves.

Applaud the effort, Clippers wouldn't even think about that trade.

Our best shot at Camby would be for expirings plus a 1st round pick or Splitter. Clippers would not want to trade an expiring contract for Jefferson's 15 million next year especially with this off-season having more attractive options via Free Agency.

T-Wolves trade is more realistic than the Camby trade, but I don't think the move would catapult the Spurs by any means.

Gomes at 3.9 mil this year is somewhat of a bargain for the production he is able to provide with the T'Wolves. I'm not sure if they would value cutting his valued salary. Also, they will be under the cap significantly already as it is and probably won't entice any big name marquee free agents this summer. If they really wanted to shed 2-4 million more to make their cap around 30 million opposed to 33-35 million, Ryan Hollins would be more available for a simple expiring contract for the fact that Gomes' production on the court is so much better.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Applaud the effort, Clippers wouldn't even think about that trade.

I am not so sure if they would reject the trade. This report (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AkAOKW6rO5uXhFY1c6wIiZm8vLYF?slug=ys-clipperscoach020410&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)in Yahoo! says that Hughes, the new coach want the Clips to run and to get the team to be moulded under a kind of play that suits the skills of Baron Davis. Who better to play a running game than RJ for them? The only thing that they would baulk at is the price of RJ. ..and that takes me to your next point.



Our best shot at Camby would be for expirings plus a 1st round pick or Splitter. Clippers would not want to trade an expiring contract for Jefferson's 15 million next year especially with this off-season having more attractive options via Free Agency.

If the Clips want to get someone in free agency, they wouldn't just give away Camby as they seem to be looking to do. Plus, there is no guarantee that any good FA will choose the Clips over other viable teams, leaving the Clips to only be in a position to overpay some medium scale FA in the offseason - a scenario that its Uncle Scrooge owner Sterling would want to avoid.

Besides, RJ is a good fit for them at 3, with Davis at 1, Gordon at 2, Griffin at 4 and Kaman at 5.

Question is would we have to give up Splitter to get Camby? We can possibly sweeten the deal further with Splitter as well!.



T-Wolves trade is more realistic, but I don't think the move would catapult the Spurs by any means.

If this trade happens along with the Clips one, it eases the center burden for Duncan and gets an adequate replacement for the underperforming RJ; plus takes of $14 million off next year's salary tab, helping us resign Manu for a reasonable contract and get another FA as well.

All on paper though :flag:

[MaNu4Tres]

Applaud the effort, Clippers wouldn't even think about that trade.

Our best shot at Camby would be for expirings plus a 1st round pick or Splitter. Clippers would not want to trade an expiring contract for Jefferson's 15 million next year especially with this off-season having more attractive options via Free Agency.

T-Wolves trade is more realistic than the Camby trade, but I don't think the move would catapult the Spurs by any means.

Gomes at 3.9 mil this year is somewhat of a bargain for the production he is able to provide with the T'Wolves. I'm not sure if they would value cutting his valued salary. Also, they will be under the cap significantly already as it is and probably won't entice any big name marquee free agents this summer. If they really wanted to shed 2-4 million more to make their cap around 30 million opposed to 33-35 million, Ryan Hollins would be more available for a simple expiring contract for the fact that Gomes' production on the court is so much better.

Fixed...

[Spursfanfromafar]

Gomes at 3.9 mil this year is somewhat of a bargain for the production he is able to provide with the T'Wolves. I'm not sure if they would value cutting his valued salary. Also, they will be under the cap significantly already as it is and probably won't entice any big name marquee free agents this summer. If they really wanted to shed 2-4 million more to make their cap around 30 million opposed to 33-35 million, Ryan Hollins would be more available for a simple expiring contract for the fact that Gomes' production on the court is so much better.

Very fair point..

But if they want to extend Love next season (and keep Jefferson) and get a fourth good player to play along the core of AlJ, Love and Flynn.. they might think about taking Gomes' contract off. Just saying.

[the crimson blur]

Some realistic deals that would improve the Spurs IMO:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjlh3dv

Throw in Splitter and a 1st round pick.
( Sixers shed 12 million off their cap this summer and 15 million next summer as they look to rebuild. They also get a top European prospect and a 1st round pick.)

If only...I would love this trade sooo much. I know it would lock us into Iguodala's contract but I don't care. Can you imagine a playoff rotation of:

Tony Parker
George Hill
Andre Iguodala
Tim Duncan
Sam Dalembert

Dejuan Blair
Antonio Mcdyess
Manu Ginobili
Keith Bogans

I'd be willing to sacrifice the next 4 years to see this for one season. I mean, we'd be ridiculous.

Unfortunately, I doubt it will happen...but man would it be awesome. Got me all glossy-eyed.

[MaNu4Tres]

I am not so sure if they would reject the trade. This report (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AkAOKW6rO5uXhFY1c6wIiZm8vLYF?slug=ys-clipperscoach020410&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)in Yahoo! says that Hughes, the new coach want the Clips to run and to get the team to be moulded under a kind of play that suits the skills of Baron Davis. Who better to play a running game than RJ for them? The only thing that they would baulk at is the price of RJ. ..and that takes me to your next point.

Your right. They would instantly.



If the Clips want to get someone in free agency, they wouldn't just give away Camby as they seem to be looking to do. Plus, there is no guarantee that any good FA will choose the Clips over other viable teams, leaving the Clips to only be in a position to overpay some medium scale FA in the offseason - a scenario that its Uncle Scrooge owner Sterling would want to avoid.

Besides, RJ is a good fit for them at 3, with Davis at 1, Gordon at 2, Griffin at 4 and Kaman at 5.


Clippers won't just give away Camby your right. The are most likely looking for a first round pick from a low-seeded playoff team and a prospect for the future on a cheap contract along with expirings. They are for sure not interested in bringing in overpaid players that have more year(s) left on their contract. Especially with the free agents available this summer.

Clippers have Al Thornton at a very cheap price as their small forward. He is already everything you described in a player that can play and " run" with Davis. Clippers would be foolish to use their cap space this summer for a player that isn't better than what they already have at small forward.


If this trade happens along with the Clips one, it eases the center burden for Duncan and gets an adequate replacement for the underperforming RJ; plus takes of $14 million off next year's salary tab, helping us resign Manu for a reasonable contract and get another FA as well.



Spurs can only afford the MLE this summer, if they got rid of R.J's contract for an expiring and resigned Manu for what he is worth 7-9 million a year.

[MaNu4Tres]

But if they want to extend Love next season (and keep Jefferson) and get a fourth good player to play along the core of AlJ, Love and Flynn.. they might think about taking Gomes' contract off. Just saying.

They won't have to worry about that til after 2012 for an extension for Love. Love is on his rookie scaled contract and will be through 2013.( Last two years being team options.)

[Chieflion]

For those who thought the Wolves would give up Gomes because of his salary concerns, I believe his contract is partially guaranteed for the next two years.

[MaNu4Tres]

For those who thought the Wolves would give up Gomes because of his salary concerns, I believe his contract is partially guaranteed for the next two years.

Your right but T'wolves more than likely will make it guaranteed next year. His contract as of now has good value compared to his production on the court.

The only way they wouldn't make it guaranteed is if they were in financial trouble next year. Which won't be the case.

[I. Hustle]

I think that if the Spurs traded any combination of Fin, Bonner, RJ, RMJ, Ian, Bogans for Kobe, Lebron, and Wade we would be right back in contention for the '10 title.

What do you guys think? I have been thinking about this for quite some time.

[benefactor]

Interesting article:
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/sixers/20100205_Bob_Cooney__Time_for_Sixers_to_make_a_fre sh_start.html



Bolded part is ironic. Jefferson by contrast needs to be one of the stars of a team and Iggy fits the description perfectly to what the Spurs need.

If it is true that the team would be looking a couple of years before being in contention...RJ's contract just might be perfect for the Sixer's to take on when at the end of 10-11 RJ would be off their books.

I really like the trade manu4tres submitted earlier:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjlh3dv
Can't see the trade...my work blocks the trade machine.

I still think Philly could probably do better over the summer or next season instead of paying 15 million for RJ next year.

[Chieflion]

Your right but T'wolves more than likely will make it guaranteed next year. His contract as of now has good value compared to his production on the court.

The only way they wouldn't make it guaranteed is if they were in financial trouble next year. Which won't be the case.
I didn't think so. Kahn has stated before he would like to take part in the 2010 sweepstakes for the Wolves. I think he has the capspace. Gomes is just a tweener 3/4, so he might be off the team for the Wolves to sign a player who can score from the perimeter to team up with Al Jefferson, Kevin Love and Jonny Flynn. I think with Corey Brewer's development, Ryan Gomes might be actually be the odd man out. The same goes for Ramon Sessions due to Flynn and possibly Rubio in the near future.

This is why I actually lobbied for their services and not because of his salary concerns.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Clippers won't just give away Camby your right. The are most likely looking for a first round pick from a low-seeded playoff team and a prospect for the future on a cheap contract along with expirings. They are for sure not interested in bringing in overpaid players that have more year(s) left on their contract. Especially with the free agents available this summer.

I don't know of any low-seeded playoff team other than the Spurs and the Rockets who are looking for a player like Camby. Maybe they are and I am not able to apply my mind to it.



Clippers have Al Thornton at a very cheap price as their small forward. He is already everything you described in a player that can play and " run" with Davis. Clippers would be foolish to use their cap space this summer for a player that isn't better than what they already have at small forward.

Their Al Thornton experiment has mostly failed. He suffers from numerous shortcomings and they got Rasual Butler only for the purpose of keeping Thornton on his toes.

RJ is way better than AlT.



Spurs can only afford the MLE this summer, if they got rid of R.J's contract for an expiring and resigned Manu for what he is worth 7-9 million a year.

That is way better than our current conundrum with Manu and RJ's contract.

[MaNu4Tres]

Can't see the trade...my work blocks the trade machine.

I still think Philly could probably do better over the summer or next season instead of paying 15 million for RJ next year.

Philly will be handcuffed to make any significant signings this summer. Unless they made the move for McGrady's expiring.

Trade is Dalembert/ Iggy for RJ/Ratliff/Bonner/ Mason/ Splitter and a 1st round pick.

[arakkus]

If only...I would love this trade sooo much. I know it would lock us into Iguodala's contract but I don't care. Can you imagine a playoff rotation of:

Tony Parker
George Hill
Andre Iguodala
Tim Duncan
Sam Dalembert

Dejuan Blair
Antonio Mcdyess
Manu Ginobili
Keith Bogans

I'd be willing to sacrifice the next 4 years to see this for one season. I mean, we'd be ridiculous.

Unfortunately, I doubt it will happen...but man would it be awesome. Got me all glossy-eyed.

If we replace Blair for Ratliff in that trade I bet we could get them to go for it. Get back to two towers on defense with good outside scoring. I'd make that trade it helps out both teams.

[Allanon]

Can't see the trade...my work blocks the trade machine.

Manu4tres' trade idea
http://badpussy.org/uploads/files/3nx2c5io62pj4zigquub.jpg

[Whisky Dog]

The Spurs want to make a trade. There just isn't anyone to fleece, RJ is stuck and is our burden while nobody wants fodder for anything good enough to make a difference this year. I say unless a team steps up to be fleeced we just stand pat, hopefully either get it together and go on a tear to contend or miss the playoffs and hope for a decent draft position.

I hatw to say it, and Timmy deserves better than this, but we're in rebuilding mode. We don't have a cornerstone superstar anymore.

[MaNu4Tres]

Splitter and a 1st would be included as well.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Philly will be handcuffed to make any significant signings this summer. Unless they made the move for McGrady's expiring.

Trade is Dalembert/ Iggy for RJ/Ratliff/Bonner/ Mason/ Splitter and a 1st round pick.

I think if they have decided to trade Iggy, they'd use him as a bait for someone to take on Brand's contract, they have no incentive to simply salary dump Iggy, his trade value is much higher, and even if they do, they'll easily get better offers, such as McGrady + picks, Allen + Allen + picks, etc.

[SpurNation]

Can't see the trade...my work blocks the trade machine.

I still think Philly could probably do better over the summer or next season instead of paying 15 million for RJ next year.

The trade would be Iguodala and Dalembert for Jefferson, Bonner, Mason and Ratliff.

Jefferson being two years left while the rest are off the books after this year.

Iguodala's contract is 5 years at 12.2mil and Dalembert is 2 years at 12mil.

Just realizing now after physically posting you the numbers that Dalembert would kill the Spurs' cap space without knowing how well Iguodala would actually fit in this system.

If the Spurs would want to resign Manu...this deal would make that near impossible.

[benefactor]

Philly will be handcuffed to make any significant signings this summer. Unless they made the move for McGrady's expiring.

Trade is Dalembert/ Iggy for RJ/Ratliff/Bonner/ Mason/ Splitter and a 1st round pick.
That would put the Spurs at 66 million in salaries for only 8 players next season. That's not happening.

[MaNu4Tres]

That would put the Spurs at 66 million in salaries for only 8 players next season. That's not happening.

Like last off-season??.....


Tim Duncan: $22.2 million
Tony Parker: $12.6 million
Manu Ginobili: $10.7 million
Richard Jefferson: $14.2 million

TOTAL: $59.7 million :lmao

Everyone can get this idea out of their heads real quick. This team GAVE away a guy they had been fighting like dogs for 5 years to sign over a lousy $3 million and all of a sudden they're going to go with a $70+ million payroll? This thread is nothing more than SpursFan masturbation.

That AI for Dalembert was just an idea. Very likely it doesn't happen but it is possible. 66 million for 8 players is possible.

[benefactor]

Like last off-season??.....

Just because they went deep into tax territory this offseason doesn't mean that it is now going to become an annual event.


That AI for Dalembert was just an idea. Very likely it doesn't happen but it is possible. 66 million for 8 players is possible.
No, it's not. How do plan to fill the rest of the roster? With a bunch of D-League players and corpse vet minimums?

[MaNu4Tres]

Just because they went deep into tax territory this offseason doesn't mean that it is now going to become an annual event.

No, it's not. How do plan to fill the rest of the roster? With a bunch of D-League players and corpse vet minimums?

I never said it was an annual event. But their last big trade for Jefferson indicated Spurs were going deep into the lux the following two seasons for sure. As Spurs were going for the All in" approach during Duncan's last few years.

Even Pop indicated before the season that they got Jefferson to play with Tony, Manu and Tim the next two years. And that Jefferson's addition wasn't at the expense of them letting go of Manu when his contract went out.


And resigning Manu for 7-8 million over 3 years wouldn't effect our MLE or LLE.

So Spurs would be looking at 9 players at roughly 73-75 million with our MLE, LLE, vet minimum and the draft to fill out the roster.

[benefactor]

I never said it was an annual event. But their last big trade for Jefferson indicated Spurs were going deep into the lux the following two seasons for sure. As Spurs were going for the All in" approach during Duncan's last few years.

Even Pop indicated before the season that they got Jefferson to play with Tony, Manu and Tim the next two years. And that Jefferson's addition wasn't at the expense of them letting go of Manu when his contract went out.

We will fill out the rest of the roster with our MLE, LLE, and the vet minimum and our second round picks (which prolly will be irrelevant.)
There is a big difference in keeping Jefferson and making the trade you are suggesting...like a 10 million dollar difference. After the FO has rolled the dice on Jefferson and had it burn them do you honestly think they will go 10 million further to delve into the unknown again?

[Whisky Dog]

Jefferson is the biggest money waste, time waste, buzz kill asshole in Spurs history. Front office should have known better than to think a joto would bring the balls to the team.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Clippers won't just give away Camby your right. The are most likely looking for a first round pick from a low-seeded playoff team and a prospect for the future on a cheap contract along with expirings. They are for sure not interested in bringing in overpaid players that have more year(s) left on their contract. Especially with the free agents available this summer.

Clippers have Al Thornton at a very cheap price as their small forward. He is already everything you described in a player that can play and " run" with Davis. Clippers would be foolish to use their cap space this summer for a player that isn't better than what they already have at small forward.

This blog (http://clipperblog.com/2009/12/14/bull-market/)here (possibly the best in the Truehoop network and run by one of the shrewdest basketball minds on the internet - Kevin Arnovitz) says what the Clips are mostly looking for the expiring of Camby -



There’s no question that Camby is going to be pursued quite heavily by playoff contenders and teams looking to enter the free agency race, but what will the Clippers be asking in return for Camby?

For as valuable as he would be to a contender, his expiring contract makes him just as valuable to the Clippers. If the Clippers let Camby’s contract expire, they’ll have plenty of cap room to be a major player in this summer’s market. With Baron Davis, Eric Gordon, Blake Griffin and Chris Kaman all locked up through the 2011 season, it seems logical that the Clippers would target a small forward to round out the starting lineup. Although Al Thornton has made improvements this year, it’s tough to argue that he meshes properly with the other four starters. Rasual Butler was supposed to be the answer at small forward, but with his jumper on the back of the milk carton he’s basically a glorified Mardy Collins. The reasoning behind the Butler signing was correct, but Butler hasn’t proven himself to be the outside shooter required to fill the role. So where should the Clippers go from here?

Do they let Camby’s contract expire, then make a run at a Joe Johnson type player in free agency? As enticing as that sounds, there’s the very real possibility that the Clippers aren’t able to secure a big name free agent and are left in the cold without anything to show for Camby. Would securing a better version of Butler during the season, like a Tayshaun Prince, be the way to go? If the Clippers have a chance to acquire someone on a long term deal from a team desperate for cap space, like a Luol Deng, should they take it? Any way you slice it, letting Camby’s contract expire is a serious gamble, as there will undoubtedly be plenty of attractive offers the Clippers would have to pass on.

So where exactly does LeBron James fit into this? Well, there’s gambling, and then there’s putting your life savings into lottery tickets. What are the chances of LeBron joining the Clippers? Close to zero, but they are zero unless the Clippers are able to cut salary, which could only really be accomplished by moving Kaman or Baron. That raises a whole different question altogether: Can Camby be used as the asset to unload a more undesirable contract?

In other words, if the Clips are looking at Luol Deng/ Tayshaun Prince.. they might as well look at Richard Jefferson ..is all I am saying..

[MaNu4Tres]

There is a big difference in keeping Jefferson and making the trade you are suggesting...like a 10 million dollar difference. After the FO has rolled the dice on Jefferson and had it burn them do you honestly think they will go 10 million further to delve into the unknown again?

So if they didn't make that trade and stood pat, they would be able to resign Bonner, Mason and Manu without it effecting their MLE.

Say they resigned Manu for 3 years 26 million.

That would put the Spurs at 64 million for 8 players. Spurs would be wise to go ahead and resign Bonner and Mason to short term decent deals because the Spurs aren't guaranteed anything in free agency with the MLE. Resigning those two would also give the Spurs more flexibility and less holes to fill with the MLE and LLE. That 10 million difference that would be spent on Dalembert for just one more year would be used on Bonner and Mason instead.


If Spurs chose not to sign Bonner and Mason, Spurs would be put in a more vulnerable position going into free agency with only the MLE and LLE to work with.

With the additions of Dalembert and AI and the resigning of Manu in the off-season the Spurs would be looking at 9 players on the roster going into the off-season at 74-75 million. With the MLE, LLE, and vet minimum to add pieces to the roster.

[SpurNation]

Phili trade with Jefferson would put the Spurs next year roster at $78.5mill. That's without re-signing Ginobili.

However...for purposes of helping the team win at least one more championship while Duncan can continue to effectively contribute...the window of opportunity lies in next season if this team can't do it this year.

How important is that to the team? Mr. Holt, Pop, Duncan?

We as fans think it's important every year. But reality is...after next season Duncan might be a true shell of himself even after this season.

Dalembert is that quasi central big that would make things easier for Duncan. Iguodala, from what we know in Phili, is a premier wing of the league.

But this deal would all but seal the fate of the Spurs in who they would HAVE to be content with for the next two years in chasing that one last title while Duncan is on the team.

[MaNu4Tres]

This blog (http://clipperblog.com/2009/12/14/bull-market/)here (possibly the best in the Truehoop network and run by one of the shrewdest basketball minds on the internet - Kevin Arnovitz) says what the Clips are mostly looking for the expiring of Camby -



In other words, if the Clips are looking at Luol Deng/ Tayshaun Prince.. they might as well look at Richard Jefferson ..is all I am saying..

That is D.J Foster's opinion. Not the Clippers.

[MaNu4Tres]

Phili trade with Jefferson would put the Spurs next year roster at $78.5mill. That's without re-signing Ginobili.



That's wrong.

[Spursfanfromafar]

That is D.J Foster's opinion. Not the Clippers.

Well.. I can always count on DJ Foster's opinion on what the Clips want than your opinion (or even mine...except mine is closer to DJF's).

[benefactor]

With the additions of Dalembert and AI and the resigning of Manu in the off-season the Spurs would be looking at 9 players on the roster going into the off-season at 74-75 million. With the MLE, LLE, and vet minimum to add pieces to the roster.
...and you actually believe they would do this?

[MaNu4Tres]

Well.. I can always count on DJ Foster's opinion on what the Clips want than your opinion (or even mine...except mine is closer to DJF's).

You want a happy meal for having D.J Foster's opinion? I will paypal you 5 dollars.

[MaNu4Tres]

...and you actually believe they would do this?

For one more year yeah I do believe they would do such a thing. They proved this was a 2 year plan once the Jefferson trade went through.

Dalembert and Parker would be off the books after next year leaving the Spurs at around 40 million if they still had Igoudala and Duncan.

[Spursfanfromafar]

You want a happy meal for having D.J Foster's opinion? I will paypal you 5 dollars.

Well.. I don't like ad hominem stuff in making my arguments.. So I will let your statement pass.

The thing is ..it is way more prudent to expect the Spurs to make a run at the Clips' Camby and them mulling over the offer with positive intent than..a stupid case for getting a longish contract like Iguodala's + Dalembert's (when the Sixers are easily getting better offers from elsewhere and when the Spurs' owner would surely want to avoid such onerous contracts).

[MaNu4Tres]

Well.. I don't like ad hominem stuff in making my arguments.. So I will let your statement pass.

The thing is ..it is way more prudent to expect the Spurs to make a run at the Clips' Camby and them mulling over the offer with positive intent than..a stupid case for getting a longish contract like Iguodala's + Dalembert's (when the Sixers are easily getting better offers from elsewhere and when the Spurs' owner would surely want to avoid such onerous contracts).

A stupid case was a proposal just like yours. It wasn't praised and worshiped by any means over Camby's expiring.

I just think Spurs best chance at Camby is offering expiring contracts and a 1st round pick and or Splitter instead of Jefferson.

[SpurNation]

That's wrong.

My bad. I forgot to subtract Jefferson's salary.

64mil would be the salary withut Manu re-signing.

Sorry.

[Spursfanfromafar]

A stupid case was a proposal just like yours. It wasn't praised and worshiped by any means over Camby's expiring.

I just think Spurs best chance at Camby is offering expiring contracts and a 1st round pick and or Splitter instead of Jefferson.

The Clips will prefer to pass if they are offered expirings for Camby's expiring surely.

And since serious Clips fans have written about what their team intends to do- fitting well with my idea of giving what the Clips need for Camby's expiring.. there is as much possibility for my proposal to go through ..which will only benefit the Spurs.

AIg + SamD is never happening simply because the contracts are super onerous.

[benefactor]

For one more year yeah I do believe they would do such a thing. They proved this was a 2 year plan once the Jefferson trade went through.


Again...I seriously doubt they delve into the unknown yet again with even more cash involved when they just got burned. Your trade is about as likely to happen as a Lebron trade.

[MaNu4Tres]

The Clips will prefer to pass if they are offered expirings for Camby's expiring surely.

And since serious Clips fans have written about what their team intends to do- fitting well with my idea of giving what the Clips need for Camby's expiring.. there is as much possibility for my proposal to go through ..which will only benefit the Spurs.

AIg + SamD is never happening simply because the contracts are super onerous.

It was one blog by D.J I forgot his name already. Calm down. I know the Clippers wouldn't want JUST expirings for Camby. Splitter and the 1st round pick would be the incentive for the Clippers to agree to the deal. Not just the expiring contracts.

You make it sound like Dalembert and Igoudala both have max deals that last through 2020. Dalembert's salary would be only for one year. After that year Spurs would be back at 40 million if the trade went through. At that point Spurs will probably be in rebuilding mode and could easily offer Igoudala in 2012 for expirings to a contender if 40 million on the books for 2011-2012 is too much for you.

[MaNu4Tres]

Again...I seriously doubt they delve into the unknown yet again with even more cash involved when they just got burned. Your trade is about as likely to happen as a Lebron trade.

Again it's a one year gamble. They are going to be over the luxury tax as it is if they stand pat. This was and is a two year plan.

Any proposal is unlikely to happen just because so many factors have to go into a trade on both sides and offers from other teams have an effect on it too.

Its certainly more likely to happen than a Spurs LeBron trade like you suggest.

[benefactor]

A 10 million dollar one year gamble. You seem to be forgetting that.

[MB3//]

Has anybody watched Camby play lately? I don't understand why so many folks around here think he will improve our team so much. His rotation D is horrible, his lateral movement is gone, and more times than not he's caught reaching for the ball against guards instead of keeping his hands up using his length. Pass.

[MaNu4Tres]

A 10 million dollar one year gamble. You seem to be forgetting that.

Refer to post 539.

More than likely that 10 million would be used to retain players if they were to stand pat.

[Spursfanfromafar]

It was one blog by D.J I forgot his name already. Calm down. I know the Clippers wouldn't want JUST expirings for Camby. Splitter and the 1st round pick would be the incentive for the Clippers to agree to the deal. Not just the expiring contracts.

Them getting a very good SF to add to their core is far better than expirings and some pie in the sky named Splitter. The DJFoster example was just to show what the Clips are looking for in their personnel department.



You make it sound like Dalembert and Igoudala both have max deals that last through 2020. Dalembert's salary would be only for one year. After that year Spurs would be back at 40 million if the trade went through. At that point Spurs will probably be in rebuilding mode and could easily offer Igoudala in 2012 for expirings to a contender if 40 million on the books for 2011-2012 is too much for you.

Iguodala's contract runs through till 2014 (13-14 is a player option worth $15 million).

Basically we would be stuck with AIg worth much much more than what he really is worth along with the decision to sign TP or not and Tim Duncan's final year. There are too many ifs and buts loaded in signing AIg for so long. Far better to take it year by year than plan so far ahead and keep overpaying for a basically a third banana.

Plus Dalembert doesn't deserve 12 million and next year, moving him if he screws up will be damn impossible unless for getting nothing but silly expirings.

Also, this is not happening as the Sixers are homing in on either Amar'e or some deal with the Mavs... and they are also helped by the Rockets if they bite on the deal with a trade of TMac to the Sixers.

[MaNu4Tres]

Them getting a very good SF to add to their core is far better than expirings and some pie in the sky named Splitter. The DJFoster example was just to show what the Clips are looking for in their personnel department.



I don't agree with you. Clippers best move would be to move Camby for expirings and get a 1st round pick and/ or a young prospect on a cheap rookie scale contract.
Clippers would then have a 1st round pick as well as only 39 million or so on the books going into the summer. They could easily sign a player for 5-7 million that can provide 25-30 minutes at the small forward position that can bring the same things to the table as Jefferson.( Like Outlaw for instance). Then they could use the remaining cap space to fill in holes on their bench. ( This is all if the major max free agents decide to play elsewhere). That scenario>>>>> them trading and using all their cap space this summer for Richard Jefferson.



Iguodala's contract runs through till 2014 (13-14 is a player option worth $15 million).

Basically we would be stuck with AIg worth much much more than what he really is worth along with the decision to sign TP or not and Tim Duncan's final year. There are too many ifs and buts loaded in signing AIg for so long. Far better to take it year by year than plan so far ahead and keep overpaying for a basically a third banana.

Plus Dalembert doesn't deserve 12 million and next year, moving him if he screws up will be damn impossible unless for getting nothing but silly expirings.

Also, this is not happening as the Sixers are homing in on either Amar'e or some deal with the Mavs... and they are also helped by the Rockets if they bite on the deal with a trade of TMac to the Sixers.

It's not even worth responding to people who don't even read posts before they try to explain things in their own exploiting ways.

Refer to post 552 again please.

[SpurNation]

If a firesale is indeed the goal of Washington and the Spurs needs are both in another good perimeter defender and height in the post this would work.

Again...depending on what the Wizards are willing to do. But Jefferson and Butler would basically be a wash as far as salaries with RJ being able to contribute on a team that could use his talents and where he would be more effective. Mason was a fan favorite before leaving and would be a positive contributor as well already knowing the system.

Mahinmi? If the Wizards are going to basically sucumb to a losing season...the chance to see how he can play might be worth the trade. I think if given minutes...Mahinmi could actually produce decent numbers.

http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5433529

Haywood on the cheap for this year. Depending on how well he would fit this team might translate into a decent offer from the Spurs for less than they would have to pay going outside. If they don't resign him...then they wouldn't be losing out on somebody they never really had planned to have to begin with.

Butler, for the same duration, just might be better adapted to this system than Jefferson. His defense would definately be better.

San Antonio Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: +3.0 ppg, +8.2 rpg, and -1.5 apg.

Incoming Players
http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Butler_Caron_was.jpg Caron Butler
6-7 SF from Connecticut
16.5 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 2.2 apg in 39.2 minutes
http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Haywood_Brendan_was.jpg Brendan Haywood
7-0 C from North Carolina
9.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 0.4 apg in 33.0 minutes

Outgoing Players
http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Jefferson_Richard_san.jpg Richard Jefferson
6-7 SF from Arizona
12.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.1 apg in 31.3 minutes
http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Mason_Roger_san.jpg Roger Mason
6-5 SG from Virginia
7.4 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 1.8 apg in 19.6 minutes
http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Mahinmi_Ian_san.jpg Ian Mahinmi
6-10 PF from France
3.6 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 0.2 apg in 8.6 minutes


Washington Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: -3.0 ppg, -8.2 rpg, and +1.5 apg.

Incoming Players
http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Jefferson_Richard_san.jpg Richard Jefferson
6-7 SF from Arizona
12.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.1 apg in 31.3 minutes
http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Mason_Roger_san.jpg Roger Mason
6-5 SG from Virginia
7.4 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 1.8 apg in 19.6 minutes
http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Mahinmi_Ian_san.jpg Ian Mahinmi
6-10 PF from France
3.6 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 0.2 apg in 8.6 minutes Outgoing Players
http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Butler_Caron_was.jpg Caron Butler
6-7 SF from Connecticut
16.5 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 2.2 apg in 39.2 minutes
http://www.realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/profiles/photos/2006/Haywood_Brendan_was.jpg Brendan Haywood
7-0 C from North Carolina
9.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 0.4 apg in 33.0 minutes

[benefactor]

Refer to post 539.

More than likely that 10 million would be used to retain players if they were to stand pat.
So you are suggesting that we would pay 5 million a piece on Mason and Bonner? Rofl. As of right now all signs point to us not even re-signing Mason...and if we do re-sign Bonner he most certainly is not getting a raise.

The Spurs are not going to pay 13 million dollars to Samuel Dalembert next year. They just got done dealing with a massively overpaid player that didn't work out. Their not doing it again.

[MaNu4Tres]

So you are suggesting that we would pay 5 million a piece on Mason and Bonner? Rofl. As of right now all signs point to us not even re-signing Mason...and if we do re-sign Bonner he most certainly is not getting a raise.

The Spurs are not going to pay 13 million dollars to Samuel Dalembert next year. They just got done dealing with a massively overpaid player that didn't work out. Their not doing it again.

Me and you both don't know what they are going to do.

With all the facts we have presented to us today, Spurs have planned on going all in for the 2009-2010 and 2010 and 2011 season. That was evident after the Jefferson trade went through. Just because Jefferson hasn't been what they have hoped doesn't mean Spurs are going to give up on their plan.

[Chieflion]

So you are suggesting that we would pay 5 million a piece on Mason and Bonner? Rofl. As of right now all signs point to us not even re-signing Mason...and if we do re-sign Bonner he most certainly is not getting a raise.

The Spurs are not going to pay 13 million dollars to Samuel Dalembert next year. They just got done dealing with a massively overpaid player that didn't work out. Their not doing it again.
So what you are saying is, the Spurs would not try to improve their team any further just because their recent attempt to add an impact player failed, so the Spurs are going into the luxury tax this year, gaining absolutely nothing out of it.

[Spursfanfromafar]

I don't agree with you. Clippers best move would be to move Camby for expirings and get a 1st round pick and/ or a young prospect on a cheap rookie scale contract.
Clippers would then have a 1st round pick as well as only 39 million or so on the books going into the summer. They could easily sign a player for 5-7 million that can provide 25-30 minutes at the small forward position that can bring the same things to the table as Jefferson.( Like Outlaw for instance). Then they could use the remaining cap space to fill in holes on their bench. ( This is all if the major max free agents decide to play elsewhere). That scenario>>>>> them trading and using all their cap space this summer for Richard Jefferson.

Not convinced if Outlaw is the answer that the Clips are looking for to get a suitable 3. But yes, I accept that your argument about costs and alternatives is compelling. RJ's salary of $14 is possibly 3-4 million $ more than the ideal situation that the Clips would want to be in. I was hedging based on the coaching change and the fact that RJ fits a need rightaway rather than an unknown for the Clips.




It's not even worth responding to people who don't even read posts before they try to explain things in their own exploiting ways.

Refer to post 552 again please.

552 is not convincing me. And I am not "exploiting" anything. Just stating facts.

[benefactor]

So what you are saying is, the Spurs would not try to improve their team any further just because their recent attempt to add an impact player failed, so the Spurs are going into the luxury tax this year, gaining absolutely nothing out of it.
If it means eating Dalembert's 13 million, then no, they will not.

[Chieflion]

If it means eating Dalembert's 13 million, then no, they will not.
So the Spurs would rather eat RJ's 15 million and continue to suck next season? That does not make any sense either.

[MaNu4Tres]

If it means eating Dalembert's 13 million, then no, they will not.

Dalembert 13 million for one year > Bonner 3 year deal worth 14 million+ Mason 2 year deal worth 8 million.

[benefactor]

So the Spurs would rather eat RJ's 15 million and continue to suck next season? That does not make any sense either.
No...I'd like to get rid of RJ, but they are not going to pay 25 million to get rid of him.

Dalembert 13 million for one year > Bonner 3 year deal worth 14 million+ Mason 2 year deal worth 8 million.
You are seriously reaching with those numbers...and what makes you think RMJ will be re-signed?

[Chieflion]

No...I'd like to get rid of RJ, but they are not going to pay 25 million to get rid of him.

You are seriously reaching with those numbers...and what makes you think RMJ will be re-signed?
Huh? 25 million? Where did that number come from? Dalembert essentially replaces RJ's salary, unless I am missing something. You must be thinking luxury tax but the Spurs are probably still in the red zone next season.

[Chomag]

One thing I do believe is if this team does not make a good trade before deadline that they might as well hang up TD, Manu, and TP for the rest of the year. This current roster just lacks enough mentally tough enough players to contend. Spurs are a playoff team at best.

I honestly would rather see the Spurs rest our stars and try to get a good pick in the lotto then to watch them get beaten in the first round playoffs.

On the bright side of this is that it would give a chance for our younger core to get more experience in the season.

[MaNu4Tres]

No...I'd like to get rid of RJ, but they are not going to pay 25 million to get rid of him.

You are seriously reaching with those numbers...and what makes you think RMJ will be re-signed?

That 25 million will net us a more versatile and athletic wing that can defend. As well as a defensive big man that can alter shots around the rim. That 25 million would improve the Spurs chances to get San Antonio number 5. Therefore it would be worth it, even if it meant taking on Dalembert's contract for one year.

No I'm not reaching for those numbers. Bonner got a 3 year deal worth 10 million after 2007 when he played 1/10th of the role he has played with the Spurs the past 2 years. 3 years 12-15 mil will be what Spurs offer. IMO

Spurs will only have Jefferson and Hairston signed at the 3/2 position going into the off-season if they were to stand pat. Manu will be offered more money than the Spurs are willing to give up and Finley will retire. Spurs would be wise to try to resign Mason for a short term deal if they really plan on going after Splitter with most of the MLE. If they don't try to resign Mason then Spurs would be stuck with Jefferson, Hairston, Hill and maybe Manu ( Big maybe.

Spurs wouldn't have much money left over to sign a quality wing, if they came to terms with Splitter. That is why I think Mason would be resigned if Spurs were to stand pat. Him resigning wouldn't effect the MLE.

[MaNu4Tres]

Huh? 25 million? Where did that number come from? Dalembert essentially replaces RJ's salary, unless I am missing something. You must be thinking luxury tax but the Spurs are probably still in the red zone next season.

Your missing Igoudala's contract.

[Chieflion]

Your missing Igoudala's contract.
For a player of Iggy's calibre, that is good money spent. He is the real do-it all SF in the league except for LeBron. I would rather have him than Finley, Bonner and the likes of Mason.

[SpurNation]

You got to remember if we keep Splitter's rights Spurs are going to go at him with most of our MLE. That is why I believe we will try to resign Mason if we were to stand pat. Because resigning him wouldn't effect our MLE.

I'm confused. If Mason were part of the trade as you suggested...how would the Spurs resign him?

[Big P]

That 25 million will net us a more versatile and athletic wing that can defend. As well as a defensive big man that can alter shots around the rim. That 25 million would improve the Spurs chances to get San Antonio number 5. Therefore it would be worth it, even if it meant taking on Dalembert's contract for one year.

No I'm not reaching for those numbers. Bonner got a 3 year deal worth 10 million after 2007 when he played 1/10th of the role he has played with the Spurs the past 2 years. 3 years 12-15 mil will be what Spurs offer. IMO

Spurs will only have Jefferson and Hairston signed at the 3/2 position going into the off-season if they were to stand pat. Manu will be offered more money than the Spurs are willing to give up and Finley will retire. Spurs would be wise to try to resign Mason for a short term deal in case Manu left or didn't leave. Unless you think Hairston is good enough to help this team compete for a title playing 30 minutes a night? You got to remember if we keep Splitter's rights Spurs are going to go at him with most of our MLE. That is why I believe we will try to resign Mason if we were to stand pat. Because resigning him wouldn't effect our MLE.


You want us to resign bonner & mason?? No way in hell bonner gets 12-15 mil...lmao

[the crimson blur]

If it means eating Dalembert's 13 million, then no, they will not.

I don't think you realize how good this team will be if that trade gets done. Its an instant championship. The financial situation after the trade would not be as bad as you are making it out. We'd have a solid 2-3 year window of serious contention. Iggy and Dalembert are fantastic, fantastic players. Its not like Jefferson where everyone had their doubts; we had to reference back to his days on the Nets to remember when he played defense. Butler is having a miserable season, and Haywood isn't as good as posters make him out to be. Iggy and Dalembert are way, way better than those guys; they are surefire bets.

Some stats if you don't believe me:
Dalembert:
6.6 BLK% (one of the highest in the league. For comparison, Timmy's is 3.9)
21.6 TRB% (also one of the highest in the league. Would be the best on the Spurs, beating Blair and Duncan)
102 Defensive Rating (amazing DRtg, especially considering he is on the 9th worst defensive team in the league. That DRtg is better than everyone but Duncan and Blair and I'd expect it to spike significantly on a better team)
84.3 FT%

Iguodala:
1.9 Steals per game, 2.5 Steal% (this only slightly encapsulates why Iggy is considered one of the better wing defenders in the league. One of the highest Steal%s in the league, and he doesn't do it on gambles but with really, really good hands.)
5.7 assists per game, 23.0 AST% (how amazing would it be to have a SF that could create for others?)
6.9 rebounds per game, 10.0 TRB% (one of the best wing rebounders in the league, probably only second to Lebron and maybe Melo.)

Length? Athleticism? Two of the best at their position. Health? Dalembert hasn't missed a game since the 2005-2006 season and Iggy has only missed 6 games in 6 seasons. Youth? Ages 28 (Dalembert) and 26 (Iggy), going into their primes.

How you would not do this deal if you are San Antonio I don't know. Philly does have a lot of incentive too; they need to dump those salaries. I don't really see whats wrong with committing to Iggy for 5 years of his prime. Having a Lebron-type for 5 years doesn't sound too bad to me.

[mountainballer]

If a firesale is indeed the goal of Washington and the Spurs needs are both in another good perimeter defender and height in the post this would work.


firesale is indeed the key word.
basic role for any firesale team: don't take back MORE salary, than what you sent out.
just check what you did and rethink the firesale argument.

[Pauleta14]

Has anybody watched Camby play lately? I don't understand why so many folks around here think he will improve our team so much. His rotation D is horrible, his lateral movement is gone, and more times than not he's caught reaching for the ball against guards instead of keeping his hands up using his length. Pass.

+1 this.

People are often mistaken about the real level of players, until... they play for their team!! :lol

RJ is the perfect example...

We only see highlights of their games, and the stats line don't say everthing..
There are a lot of cliché in evaluating players discusions...

[MaNu4Tres]

You want us to resign bonner & mason?? No way in hell bonner gets 12-15 mil...lmao

I don't want us to resign Bonner and Mason read the posts. I'm playing out the scenario that Benefactor wants to happen.

And Bonner got 10 million in 2007 over 3 years so LYAO all you want.

[the crimson blur]

+1 this.

People are often mistaken about the real level of players, until... they play for their team!! :lol

RJ is the perfect example...

We only see highlights of their games, and the stats line don't say everthing..
There are a lot of cliché in evaluating players discusions...

Seriously...

Why anyone would want Butler or Camby is beyond me. Camby is terrible. Butler is worse than Jefferson.

The more you think about it, the less options it seems the Spurs have. We will probably just use our assets on a small part that won't make a difference at all. *sigh*

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm confused. If Mason were part of the trade as you suggested...how would the Spurs resign him?




Spurs will only have Jefferson and Hairston signed at the 3/2 position going into the off-season if they were to stand pat. Finley will retire and Manu isn't a sure bet to resign and Bogans is also a free agent. Spurs would be wise to try to resign Mason for a short term deal if they really plan on going after Splitter with most of the MLE. If they don't try to resign Mason then Spurs would be stuck with Jefferson, Hairston, Hill and maybe Manu ( Big maybe.) as our only wings. I don't think Hairston is ready for a huge 30 minute role.

Another reason is Spurs wouldn't have much money left over to sign a quality wing, if they came to terms with Splitter. That is why I think Mason would be resigned if Spurs were to stand pat. Him resigning wouldn't effect the MLE.

[benefactor]

I didn't say the team wouldn't be good. Of course they would. But they are not going to pay an extra 10 million on top of what they were already going to pay next season and head well over 80 million in salary to get there. Holt is not Buss or Cuban.

[Pauleta14]

Seriously...

Why anyone would want Butler or Camby is beyond me. Camby is terrible. Butler is worse than Jefferson.

The more you think about it, the less options it seems the Spurs have. We will probably just use our assets on a small part that won't make a difference at all. *sigh*


I"m sure about that!!!
I'm ABSOLUTELY not expecting any trade at all...

RC and Pop are too stubborn to admit they were wrong to Holt, the media, the fans...

They are also propably going to use the absence of trade as a motivation factor... ("see? We believe in you...blabla")

The same way they did a couple years ago...

[Big P]

I don't want us to resign Bonner and Mason read the posts. I'm playing out the scenario that Benefactor wants to happen.

And Bonner got 10 million in 2007 over 3 years so LYAO all you want.

My bad..thought it was your scenario...but what does bonner making 10 mil over 3 years in 07 have to do with us resigning the stiff next year? let alone give him a raise?

[the crimson blur]

I didn't say the team wouldn't be good. Of course they would. But they are not going to pay an extra 10 million on top of what they were already going to pay next season and head well over 80 million in salary to get there. Holt is not Buss or Cuban.

...you do know the Spurs' current payroll is over 80 million right? We'd only be gaining 2 million in this trade. Sure, 2 million over the cap is 4 million, but I don't think thats big enough for Holt to veto it. Our next year situation would have to be right around 80 mill again, and if we win a championship, and I think we easily would with that trade, persuading Holt to do it again won't be hard.

You are exaggerating the the financial drawback of this trade greatly.


I"m sure about that!!!
I'm ABSOLUTELY not expecting any trade at all...

RC and Pop are too stubborn to admit they were wrong to Holt, the media, the fans...

They are also propably going to use the absence of trade as a motivation factor... ("see? We believe in you...blabla")

The same way they did a couple years ago...

Yeah, I just don't see it. This Philly idea is the only decent idea anyone came up with but its such a pipedream. We are screwed.

[MaNu4Tres]

My bad..thought it was your scenario...but what does bonner making 10 mil over 3 years in 07 have to do with us resigning the stiff next year? let alone give him a raise?

If we stand pat and if Splitter stays in Europe. Spurs' move more than likely would be to resign Bonner and Mason. It would give them more options with the MLE and LLE since resigning either wouldn't effect it.

[SpurNation]

firesale is indeed the key word.
basic role for any firesale team: don't take back MORE salary, than what you sent out.
just check what you did and rethink the firesale argument.

I know what I did...but the deal I proposed gives the Flip run team the personnel to operate regarding his style of coaching. Basically run around and make something happen.

I know I saw somewhere that the Wizards...though maybe wanting to firesale would not just take any offer if it meant that the player's could not contribute now.

Jefferson would excell in the Wizards offense thus making him more valuable as trade or even keeping for another season and his and Butler's contract are virtually a wash.

RMJ has been there and is the type of player Saunders likes to implement in his system. Mahinmi would get minutes and probably do well in that system. Especially in the east.

So it's not like the Wizards would be "selling out". They would be receiving players that would more than likely do well in that system. I'm not sure they could just unload salary without expecting to pay something for talent either. And one could argue then why not just keep Butler at a somewhat lower price for the same time? I guess that would all be contingent on just how much Butler (from and internal standpoint with the team) and relation with Flip will continue to go.

Anyway...I don't think my proposal is so outlandish that it wouldn't be worth trying or any worse than what they might have already been approached with by other teams.

[Big P]

Not really sure that would be the smartest move, fiscally? probably, but if we want to win, bonner, mason, fin, & rj need to go....today, tomorrow, next week...i dont care...if the result of standing pat is resigning mason & bonner, we are in for a world of shit.

[SpurNation]

Seriously...

Butler is worse than Jefferson.

If you're talking about Caron Butler...his defense is far superior than Jeffersons for about the same amount of point production.

[SpurNation]

I don't think you realize how good this team will be if that trade gets done. Its an instant championship. The financial situation after the trade would not be as bad as you are making it out. We'd have a solid 2-3 year window of serious contention. Iggy and Dalembert are fantastic, fantastic players. Its not like Jefferson where everyone had their doubts; we had to reference back to his days on the Nets to remember when he played defense. Butler is having a miserable season, and Haywood isn't as good as posters make him out to be. Iggy and Dalembert are way, way better than those guys; they are surefire bets.

Some stats if you don't believe me:
Dalembert:
6.6 BLK% (one of the highest in the league. For comparison, Timmy's is 3.9)
21.6 TRB% (also one of the highest in the league. Would be the best on the Spurs, beating Blair and Duncan)
102 Defensive Rating (amazing DRtg, especially considering he is on the 9th worst defensive team in the league. That DRtg is better than everyone but Duncan and Blair and I'd expect it to spike significantly on a better team)
84.3 FT%

Iguodala:
1.9 Steals per game, 2.5 Steal% (this only slightly encapsulates why Iggy is considered one of the better wing defenders in the league. One of the highest Steal%s in the league, and he doesn't do it on gambles but with really, really good hands.)
5.7 assists per game, 23.0 AST% (how amazing would it be to have a SF that could create for others?)
6.9 rebounds per game, 10.0 TRB% (one of the best wing rebounders in the league, probably only second to Lebron and maybe Melo.)

Length? Athleticism? Two of the best at their position. Health? Dalembert hasn't missed a game since the 2005-2006 season and Iggy has only missed 6 games in 6 seasons. Youth? Ages 28 (Dalembert) and 26 (Iggy), going into their primes.

How you would not do this deal if you are San Antonio I don't know. Philly does have a lot of incentive too; they need to dump those salaries. I don't really see whats wrong with committing to Iggy for 5 years of his prime. Having a Lebron-type for 5 years doesn't sound too bad to me.

Those are some very tangible numbers and are exactly what is needed by this current Spurs team.

If...a big if IMO...this deal could be done...I think the money spent would be worth the investment more so than what is being invested now.

Duncan's window is short. It could possibly be prolonged if this deal were to happen and definately make their chances of winning a title better than what they have now.

Winning a title...isn't that the goal?

That plus...the only real concern next season would be resigning Manu. The rest of the team would be pat.

[the crimson blur]

If you're talking about Caron Butler...his defense is far superior than Jeffersons for about the same amount of point production.

You think Butler's point production would be the same in the Spurs' system? He'd be a 10-12 ppg guy on 42% shooting and even worse from three. His defense really isn't as good as Jefferson's, and it definitely won't be while he is learning the system. He has rebounding and thats about it. Nowhere near as athletic, selfish, and usually in the wrong place. Expect a loooot of contested jumpshots.

If you think Jefferson makes a lot of mistakes a game, wait till you see Butler.

[SpurNation]

You think Butler's point production would be the same in the Spurs' system? He'd be a 10-12 ppg guy on 42% shooting and even worse from three. His defense really isn't as good as Jefferson's, and it definitely won't be while he is learning the system. He has rebounding and thats about it. Nowhere near as athletic, selfish, and usually in the wrong place. Expect a loooot of contested jumpshots.

If you think Jefferson makes a lot of mistakes a game, wait till you see Butler.

I politely disagree. Butler doesn't play on a team that focusses on defense and happen to believe if on the Spurs would play better defense at the SF than Jefferson.

[the crimson blur]

I politely disagree. Butler doesn't play on a team that focusses on defense and happen to believe if on the Spurs would play better defense at the SF than Jefferson.

Butler has never really been on a good defensive team though, and hasn't done anything in the playoffs yet. At least Jefferson has.

I can see why someone would prefer Butler, but really, Caron Butler isn't the guy who is going to right the ship. Putting him as a trade target seems weird to me, since he isn't very good.

[duncan228]

On the block: Marcus Camby, Clippers (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=tsn-ontheblockmarcuscamb&prov=tsn&type=lgns)
SportingNews

With the Feb. 18 trading deadline approaching, Sporting News’ Sean Deveney assesses the latest player rumors. Today’s player on the spot: Clippers big man Marcus Camby.

The facts: The Clippers have considered dealing a frontcourt player since the team drafted power forward Blake Griffin in June. But Griffin’s injury forced the team to reevaluate. After making a coaching change Thursday, though, the Clippers seem to recognize that their chance at a playoff spot is remote, making them more willing to move Camby.

Bait needed: Young talent, especially wing players who can shoot. The Clippers are among the worst 3-point shooting teams in the league and need players who can space the floor.

Welcome mat: Camby is an effective defender and rebounder on an expiring contract. Portland, trying to fill the gap left by injuries to centers Greg Oden and Joel Przybilla, has Camby as a possible target. Chicago big men Joakim Noah and Taj Gibson are struggling through plantar fasciitis, so Camby is a good fit for the Bulls, too. Playoff hopefuls looking for frontcourt depth—the Bobcats, Grizzlies and Thunder—have also been mentioned in connection with Camby.

Logic test: One thing Mike Dunleavy, now just the Clippers general manager and no longer the coach, said after the coaching change was that he wanted to focus on “the many personnel opportunities that lie before us, such as the trade market, the draft and the free agent process.” If the Clippers are to make a trade to help the team in the future, Camby is their best chip.

So they say: “It’s good to be wanted,” Camby told Sporting News this week. “That’s what I always say about that. I like it here; I like playing with these guys. But of course there are different things out there. We’ll just see what happens.”

Bottom line: The Clippers would have to pick up seven games and leap four teams in the standings to make the playoffs in the West—it’s a very, very long shot. Camby will be a free agent, and he is not coming back to L.A. next year. Look for the Clippers to ship him out for shooter with a reasonable contract.

[sananspursfan21]

Butler has never really been on a good defensive team though, and hasn't done anything in the playoffs yet. At least Jefferson has.

I can see why someone would prefer Butler, but really, Caron Butler isn't the guy who is going to right the ship. Putting him as a trade target seems weird to me, since he isn't very good.

what are you talking about butler isn't very good?! i would welcome with open arms ANY player who's nickname is "tough juice" right now. spurs d is anything but tough and caron would be that "kobe stopper" everybody talks about. i'd cry happy tears if the spurs could trade for him

[ElNono]

Just pull the trigger and see what happens. We need to shake things up a bit...

[the crimson blur]

I wonder how many transition buckets we'd give away with Camby on our team.


what are you talking about butler isn't very good?! i would welcome with open arms ANY player who's nickname is "tough juice" right now. spurs d is anything but tough and caron would be that "kobe stopper" everybody talks about. i'd cry happy tears if the spurs could trade for him

Kobe stopper? What.

Seriously guys, watch Wizards games from this year. Butler isn't good.

This is all you need to know about Caron Butler:
http://www.truthaboutit.net/2010/01/more-hero-ball-saves-the-day-for-the-other-side.html#more-4956

[SpurNation]

Butler has never really been on a good defensive team though, and hasn't done anything in the playoffs yet. At least Jefferson has.

I can see why someone would prefer Butler, but really, Caron Butler isn't the guy who is going to right the ship. Putting him as a trade target seems weird to me, since he isn't very good.

Not the guy that rights the ship...but a guy that has been projected as one of the top perimeter defenders in the league and if small ball is going to be used a definate advantage in rebounding.

That plus Haywood as another 7 footer to help relieve Duncan...I don't know how that would be weird to suggest. Maybe not plausible. But not weird.

[SpurNation]

I wonder how many transition buckets we'd give away with Camby on our team.



Kobe stopper? What.

Seriously guys, watch Wizards games from this year. Butler isn't good.

This is all you need to know about Caron Butler:
http://www.truthaboutit.net/2010/01/more-hero-ball-saves-the-day-for-the-other-side.html#more-4956

Key phrase...this year. Who would be at their best on a Wizards team "this year"?

[the crimson blur]

Key phrase...this year. Who would be at their best on a Wizards team "this year"?

Didn't we say that about Jefferson and the Bucks?

Did you read the article? If you don't want to read that one, read #8 on the Dime (http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-100103/daily-dime). His teammates hate him. Wizards fans hate him. He is known for being incredibly selfish and dumb. Why would we want him.

Haywood, sure. I'd like to see Haywood as a Spur. But Butler is bad.

[sananspursfan21]

Not the guy that rights the ship...but a guy that has been projected as one of the top perimeter defenders in the league and if small ball is going to be used a definate advantage in rebounding...

exactly



I wonder how many transition buckets we'd give away with Camby on our team.



Kobe stopper? What.

Seriously guys, watch Wizards games from this year. Butler isn't good.

This is all you need to know about Caron Butler:
http://www.truthaboutit.net/2010/01/more-hero-ball-saves-the-day-for-the-other-side.html#more-4956

i watch the wizards games, it's called league pass. and yah, he's good. wizards style of play is like a not near as good suns 2 years ago. they're trying the run and gun scheme and don't really crash the boards. also since the wizards run fast offense, the tempo of their opponent speeds up as well therefore butler cannot defend like he should.

butler is a top 5 perimeter defender and his d would flourish under a slower pace team like the spurs. spurs would have to give up too much to get him though (i think) but you can always dream

[the crimson blur]

butler is a top 5 perimeter defender and his d would flourish under a slower pace team like the spurs. spurs would have to give up too much to get him though (i think) but you can always dream

Top 5 perimeter defender?

I mean what the hell guys. Come on.

[Killakobe81]

I don't think you realize how good this team will be if that trade gets done. Its an instant championship. The financial situation after the trade would not be as bad as you are making it out. We'd have a solid 2-3 year window of serious contention. Iggy and Dalembert are fantastic, fantastic players. Its not like Jefferson where everyone had their doubts; we had to reference back to his days on the Nets to remember when he played defense. Butler is having a miserable season, and Haywood isn't as good as posters make him out to be. Iggy and Dalembert are way, way better than those guys; they are surefire bets.

Some stats if you don't believe me:
Dalembert:
6.6 BLK% (one of the highest in the league. For comparison, Timmy's is 3.9)
21.6 TRB% (also one of the highest in the league. Would be the best on the Spurs, beating Blair and Duncan)
102 Defensive Rating (amazing DRtg, especially considering he is on the 9th worst defensive team in the league. That DRtg is better than everyone but Duncan and Blair and I'd expect it to spike significantly on a better team)
84.3 FT%

Iguodala:
1.9 Steals per game, 2.5 Steal% (this only slightly encapsulates why Iggy is considered one of the better wing defenders in the league. One of the highest Steal%s in the league, and he doesn't do it on gambles but with really, really good hands.)
5.7 assists per game, 23.0 AST% (how amazing would it be to have a SF that could create for others?)
6.9 rebounds per game, 10.0 TRB% (one of the best wing rebounders in the league, probably only second to Lebron and maybe Melo.)

Length? Athleticism? Two of the best at their position. Health? Dalembert hasn't missed a game since the 2005-2006 season and Iggy has only missed 6 games in 6 seasons. Youth? Ages 28 (Dalembert) and 26 (Iggy), going into their primes.



How you would not do this deal if you are San Antonio I don't know. Philly does have a lot of incentive too; they need to dump those salaries. I don't really see whats wrong with committing to Iggy for 5 years of his prime. Having a Lebron-type for 5 years doesn't sound too bad to me.

All-star but not a Lebron type ...he is more poor man's Grant hill (healthy) than Lebron...once he wins titles will be ona whole nothet level than iggy if he is not already ...

[SpurNation]

Didn't we say that about Jefferson and the Bucks?

Did you read the article? If you don't want to read that one, read #8 on the Dime (http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-100103/daily-dime). His teammates hate him. Wizards fans hate him. He is known for being incredibly selfish and dumb. Why would we want him.

Haywood, sure. I'd like to see Haywood as a Spur. But Butler is bad.

I didn't read anything in that to suggest Butler is not coachable. On the contrary...to me it read he is very open to suggestion and direction.

[the crimson blur]

All-star but not a Lebron type ...he is more poor man's Grant hill (healthy) than Lebron...once he wins titles will be ona whole nothet level than iggy if he is not already ...

Lebron-type as in his body/athleticism. He has a lot of similarities in his game to Bron. No doubt Lebron is the better player of course.

[sananspursfan21]

Top 5 perimeter defender?

I mean what the hell guys. Come on.


have you noticed that you're the only one who thinks like you do? everybody else here KNOWS he's an awesome defensive specialist, solid shooter, and can put his head down and drive to the hoop.

[benefactor]

...you do know the Spurs' current payroll is over 80 million right? We'd only be gaining 2 million in this trade. Sure, 2 million over the cap is 4 million, but I don't think thats big enough for Holt to veto it. Our next year situation would have to be right around 80 mill again, and if we win a championship, and I think we easily would with that trade, persuading Holt to do it again won't be hard.

You are exaggerating the the financial drawback of this trade greatly.

It's actually at 79.6 million...but yeah, it's close.

The Spurs are looking at paying around 10 million this year. Let's kill all the BS and see how the numbers really look for next season if they do the trade.

According to projections, the tax threshold is going to be around 66 million next season. Adding Iggy and Sammy(25.2 million) and subtracting Jefferson(15.2 million) puts the Spurs on the hook for 66.9 million for 8 players. Say we re-sign Manu at a reasonable amount...8 million a year..that number for next season is now up to 74.9 million.

Now, we will fill out the rest of the roster to 14 and leave one open just to be conservative. To be even more conservative, we will say that the Spurs use the MLE on two players and Vet minimum on the rest while saving the LLE. With the tax going down I will shoot in the dark and say the MLE is around 5.3 million next season. 825,000 is the number used for Bogans and Ratliff, so that will be our vet minimum.

Next year's salaries with Iggy, Sammy, and Manu - 74.9 million
MLE for two players - 5.3 million
Vet minimum for 3 players - 2.4 million
Total conservative salary estimate - 82.6 million

Total luxury tax paid by the Spurs next season - 16.6 million

Now remember, this is a very conservative estimate. I didn't use the LLE, split the MLE and left a roster spot open. The tax number could easily climb close to 20 million if we sign another player or use the LLE.

So I say all of this to say what I originally said....the Spurs are not making this trade for obvious financial reasons.

[SpurNation]

Another "Dime" article regarding Caron Butler's defense.

http://dimemag.com/2009/02/whos-better-caron-butler-or-tayshaun-prince/

[duncan228]

Iguodala on the move? (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=mc-afterthebuzzer020510&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)
Marc J. Spears

The Philadelphia 76ers are still evaluating their trade options with swingman Andre Iguodala. One source says the Cleveland Cavaliers remain interested in Iguodala, but might need a third team to get a deal done since the 76ers don’t seem to want center Zydrunas Ilgauskas. While Houston Rockets guard Tracy McGrady’s expiring contract continues to draw interest, his hefty $23 million salary would make him hard to deal for players like Iguodala ($12.2 million this season) and Ilgauskas ($11.5 million) in a three-way deal.

[SpurNation]

If the Sixer's are set on trading Iguodala...I would sure hope the Spurs would do everything within their power to get him.

Iguodala on the Cavs would almost mean automatic title IMO.

And if that were to happen I would think the Knicks would be out of contention for Lebron thus maybe this trade proposal:
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5429979

[duncan228]

Tip-ins (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=mc-afterthebuzzer020510&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)
Marc J. Spears

…An NBA source said the Sacramento Kings are open to moving guard Kevin Martin and swingman Francisco Garcia prior to the trade deadline while the Chicago Bulls are still exploring options to trade forward Tyrus Thomas. The Bulls, however, have no interest in adding any player that could negatively affect their salary-cap space for free agency this summer.

…One NBA executive said he wouldn’t be surprised if the Washington Wizards don’t make a major move before the trade deadline because of the uncertainty about their ownership situation and Gilbert Arenas’ future. Still, that hasn’t stopped the other Wizards’ players from fretting about their own futures. The players think only one of them is safe from a trade: Mike Miller.

…Phoenix Suns forward Amar’e Stoudemire said he expects the team to make him another contract offer soon, but rival team executives insist that hasn’t kept the Suns from trying to move him. “I know they’re fielding offers and I would be surprised if he isn’t dealt before the deadline,” one executive said. …While the Nuggets are still looking at ways to add another veteran reserve big man, it seems less and less likely they will get something done before the trade deadline because of financial concerns. Nuggets coach George Karl and his players seem OK with standing pat. “I’m not pushing any pressure or stress that we have to get a player. But I think if we’re smart and we keep the phones open, if it’s a player that I will play, then I will be positive,” Karl said. Said Nuggets forward Kenyon Martin: “I’ll rock out with it. I’m fine with what we got.”

[the crimson blur]

I didn't read anything in that to suggest Butler is not coachable. On the contrary...to me it read he is very open to suggestion and direction.

The first article talks about how he broke up the play his coach drew up, took the ball at the top of the key, dribbled out time, drove to the bucket to throw up an impossible shot, and lost the game for the Wizards. The coach and his entire team were yelling at him from the sidelines and on the court as this transpired. After the game, he acted like nothing wrong happened. He said he "mistimed it." This is the guy you call coachable?

But hey, if you don't believe me, read it from a Wizards fan. This article, title'd "dissecting Caron Butler's inefficient offense" is the nicest article on him you'll find from a Wiz fan. Most of them do blame Butler, along with Arenas, for just about all their problems this year. (http://www.truthaboutit.net/2009/12/dissecting-caron-butlers-inefficient-offense-part-1.html#more-3446)

What about Chris Webber? You like him right? He went off on Butler, calling him "selfish, selfish, selfish" (http://www.truthaboutit.net/2010/01/chris-webbers-harsh-words-for-caron-butler-antawn-jamison.html#more-5179)


It's actually at 79.6 million...but yeah, it's close.

The Spurs are looking at paying around 10 million this year. Let's kill all the BS and see how the numbers really look for next season if they do the trade.

According to projections, the tax threshold is going to be around 66 million next season. Adding Iggy and Sammy(25.2 million) and subtracting Jefferson(15.2 million) puts the Spurs on the hook for 66.9 million for 8 players. Say we re-sign Manu at a reasonable amount...8 million a year..that number for next season is now up to 74.9 million.

Now, we will fill out the rest of the roster to 14 and leave one open just to be conservative. To be even more conservative, we will say that the Spurs use the MLE on two players and Vet minimum on the rest while saving the LLE. With the tax going down I will shoot in the dark and say the MLE is around 5.3 million next season. 825,000 is the number used for Bogans and Ratliff, so that will be our vet minimum.

Next year's salaries with Iggy, Sammy, and Manu - 74.9 million
MLE for two players - 5.3 million
Vet minimum for 3 players - 2.4 million
Total conservative salary estimate - 82.6 million

Total luxury tax paid by the Spurs next season - 16.6 million

Now remember, this is a very conservative estimate. I didn't use the LLE, split the MLE and left a roster spot open. The tax number could easily climb close to 20 million if we sign another player or use the LLE.

So I say all of this to say what I originally said....the Spurs are not making this trade for obvious financial reasons.

Nice breakdown.

I agree with everything but the conclusion. Your numbers are for the most part correct. My point is, Peter Holt would be willing to spend 82.6 million if he is spending 79.6 already. I don't think the financial sitaution would be that dire after this deal, particularly since I think Manu will sign for more in the 6-7 range but long-term rather than the 8-9 range and short term.

[SpurNation]

It's actually at 79.6 million...but yeah, it's close.

The Spurs are looking at paying around 10 million this year. Let's kill all the BS and see how the numbers really look for next season if they do the trade.

According to projections, the tax threshold is going to be around 66 million next season. Adding Iggy and Sammy(25.2 million) and subtracting Jefferson(15.2 million) puts the Spurs on the hook for 66.9 million for 8 players. Say we re-sign Manu at a reasonable amount...8 million a year..that number for next season is now up to 74.9 million.

Now, we will fill out the rest of the roster to 14 and leave one open just to be conservative. To be even more conservative, we will say that the Spurs use the MLE on two players and Vet minimum on the rest while saving the LLE. With the tax going down I will shoot in the dark and say the MLE is around 5.3 million next season. 825,000 is the number used for Bogans and Ratliff, so that will be our vet minimum.

Next year's salaries with Iggy, Sammy, and Manu - 74.9 million
MLE for two players - 5.3 million
Vet minimum for 3 players - 2.4 million
Total conservative salary estimate - 82.6 million

Total luxury tax paid by the Spurs next season - 16.6 million

Now remember, this is a very conservative estimate. I didn't use the LLE, split the MLE and left a roster spot open. The tax number could easily climb close to 20 million if we sign another player or use the LLE.

So I say all of this to say what I originally said....the Spurs are not making this trade for obvious financial reasons.

I hear ya. But this only if the Spurs would seriously consider resigning Manu.

Would they if they had Iguodala and Dalembert?

[ohmwrecker]

Key phrase...this year. Who would be at their best on a Wizards team "this year"?

Antawn Jamison. I would rather have Jamison over Butler.

[duncan228]

Six reasons Antawn Jamison absolutely needs to be traded before the deadline (http://www.bulletsforever.com/2010/2/5/1296276/six-reasons-antawn-jamison)
by Mike Prada
Bullets Forever

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2010/2/5/1296276/six-reasons-antawn-jamison

[MRduncan2010]

why would not play MASON at all does any body

[HarlemHeat37]

Butler has been a very poor defender this year and he was average last year..he's pretty much in the same scenario as Jefferson was from a defensive standpoint..both guys were very good defenders during the 1st half of their careers, but they no longer have the ability at this point..

Offensively, Butler can create a lot better, but I question how he would fit with Jefferson on the team too..

Jamison doesn't interest me at all, despite a lot of Spurs fans wanting him..he's old and one of the worst defenders in the NBA..

[ohmwrecker]

Jamison doesn't interest me at all, despite a lot of Spurs fans wanting him..he's old and one of the worst defenders in the NBA..

In an all-in, win now scenario Jamison's age is of absolute no consequence. Saying he is one of the worst defenders in the NBA is nonsense and really deflates your credibility.
The Wizards are not a defensively oriented team, but even so, Jamison is not a bad defender. He plays with a lot of heart and hustle which is the foundation for an above average NBA defender. He could flourish as a defender in a different system.
More to the point, I never said I thought the Spurs should trade for him, I just prefer him over Butler.

[SpurNation]

I'll introduce this scenario based on responses.

http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5434006

Ginobili, IMO, would be the trade kicker that would make this happen.

After this season, the Spurs could then make an offer to Ginobili.

Would Ginobili accept less to play for the Spurs again if the chance of winning another title would be greatly enhanced or would he accept a better offer to make more money?

Other teams would certainly want him. Especially a contending team. But there is no gaurantee the Spurs would be able to resign him next year anyway.

Perhaps him being a catalyst to helping the Spurs land Iguodala and Dalembert would be the best for the team instead of having him play out the rest of the season on the Spurs without a gaurantee he will be returning next year.

[ElNono]

I'll introduce this scenario based on responses.

http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5434006

Ginobili, IMO, would be the trade kicker that would make this happen.

After this season, the Spurs could then make an offer to Ginobili.

Would Ginobili accept less to play for the Spurs again if the chance of winning another title would be greatly enhanced or would he accept a better offer to make more money?

Other teams would certainly want him. Especially a contending team. But there is no gaurantee the Spurs would be able to resign him next year anyway.

Perhaps him being a catalyst to helping the Spurs land Iguodala and Dalembert would be the best for the team instead of having him play out the rest of the season on the Spurs without a gaurantee he will be returning next year.

I still don't understand why the Sixers would take on RJ's ridiculous contract... or any other team for that matter...

[5in10]

Because it ends in 2011 which is closer than the five years on iggys contract and the 2 years I believe left on dalemberts.

[ElNono]

Because it ends in 2011 which is closer than the five years on iggys contract and the 2 years I believe left on dalemberts.

But Iggy's contract is really good for his age and what he gives you. To move him I would think they would want instant cap relief, not to wait for another year with an underachieving RJ.

[5in10]

Well maybe they don't mind the tanking for jwall sweepstakes and whatever lotto pick they can get the following year?

[I. Hustle]

If we get any Butler I want this one.
http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/2/22/Act_jackie_butler.jpg
hhheeeeyyyyy wait a second. Did we already get him?
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/2009/news/features/fran_blinebury/11/11/stumbling.spurs/1111spurs608.jpg

[hsxvvd]

If we get any Butler I want this one.
http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/2/22/Act_jackie_butler.jpg
hhheeeeyyyyy wait a second. Did we already get him?
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/2009/news/features/fran_blinebury/11/11/stumbling.spurs/1111spurs608.jpg

No he ate him and stole his jersey.

[Spursmania]

:corn:

[objective]

I don't want us to resign Bonner and Mason read the posts. I'm playing out the scenario that Benefactor wants to happen.

And Bonner got 10 million in 2007 over 3 years so LYAO all you want.

Exactly.

Matt Bonner got that contract after being totally out of the rotation all playoffs long. That wasn't normal or within reason.

Therefore it now is reasonable that the Spurs will once again bid against nobody and lock up Bonner, and 4-5 a year feasible.

After all, if you look at the stats . . . he is the Prince of Plus/Minus!

[benefactor]

Nice breakdown.

I agree with everything but the conclusion. Your numbers are for the most part correct. My point is, Peter Holt would be willing to spend 82.6 million if he is spending 79.6 already. I don't think the financial sitaution would be that dire after this deal, particularly since I think Manu will sign for more in the 6-7 range but long-term rather than the 8-9 range and short term.
Don't forget the dropping of the tax threshold. It's going to drop almost 4 million and the Spurs would spend 3 million more than this year. As far as Manu goes, he's probably going to get more than 6-7 million a year. Even if they were to knock a million off and go with 7 million it still puts the Spurs at over 15 million in tax payments. That is far from chump change for a relatively "poor" owner.

[HarlemHeat37]

In an all-in, win now scenario Jamison's age is of absolute no consequence. Saying he is one of the worst defenders in the NBA is nonsense and really deflates your credibility.
The Wizards are not a defensively oriented team, but even so, Jamison is not a bad defender. He plays with a lot of heart and hustle which is the foundation for an above average NBA defender. He could flourish as a defender in a different system.
More to the point, I never said I thought the Spurs should trade for him, I just prefer him over Butler.

LOL have you actually seen Jamison play defense?..he's beyond horrible..watch any game or go to any Wizards forum and ask Wizards fans about his defense..he's a huge liability and might be the worst defender on a team full of bad defenders..

His age also does matter, since it's taken away his lateral quickness and vertical ability on defense..he was always a bad defender, but his age has made him even worse..he's worse than Bonner defensively, and that's something we can't afford..

[ace3g]

I know a lot of posters here were high on CDR during the draft, would any of you be interested in him now

Nets No Longer Consider CDR A Core Player

Nets forward Chris Douglas-Roberts lost his starting spot to Jarvis Hayes earlier this week.

Douglas-Roberts is no longer considered a core player by New Jersey, sources told the New York Daily News.

The forward's outspokenness has annoyed the Nets.

Douglas-Roberts was averaging 17.2 points under coach Lawrence Frank, but has struggled since he was fired on Dec. 30.

He has been linked to the Grizzlies in rumors.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/64503/20100205/nets_no_longer_consider_cdr_a_core_player/

[Muser]

CDR would make me cry with delight.

[ohmwrecker]

LOL have you actually seen Jamison play defense?..he's beyond horrible..watch any game or go to any Wizards forum and ask Wizards fans about his defense..he's a huge liability and might be the worst defender on a team full of bad defenders..

His age also does matter, since it's taken away his lateral quickness and vertical ability on defense..he was always a bad defender, but his age has made him even worse..he's worse than Bonner defensively, and that's something we can't afford..

Dude, do really want to nuzzle my nuts over this? All I said was that I prefer Jamison over Butler. Yes, of course I have seen Jamison play and your claim that Jamison is a worse defender than Bonner is laughable and citing a Wizards fan message board as evidence is almost not worth responding to. Almost.
If the fans on a Wizards message board are half the irrational, hysterical, poor assessors of talent as the nitwits on Spurstalk are, then I will trust my own eyes and instincts on this one, thanks.
Oh, and to reiterate, I never suggested that the Spurs trade for Jamison.
Are you ready to let this one go now?

[timvp]

CDR would reach depths of Pop's doghouse never seen before.

[JR3]

Can CDR D-UP anyone? Then yes.

[MaNu4Tres]

CDR would reach depths of Pop's doghouse never seen before.

+1

CDR is Ron Mercer 2.0.

[ace3g]

CDR would reach depths of Pop's doghouse never seen before.

the article states that CDR has been running his mouth a lot, but what else would lead to him being in the doghouse, his defense, shot selection, etc

[Libri]

+1

CDR is Ron Mercer 2.0.

and he's a bad 3pt shooter

[duncan228]

Twitter.

Chris Douglas-Roberts: This repuation of me being a jerk is growing so fast & it’s so false. Articles can really make a fan think a certain way.That’s sad. O well..

[HarlemHeat37]

I haven't watched the Nets too much this year, but I followed them and went to a lot of games last year..he was very solid last year on both ends of the floor..he can't shoot, but he's a very good slasher and was a very solid passer last year..it looks like his game really regressed from last season..

Vince Carter was his mentor and Frank had him playing a different role, so I guess that could have a part in it..

He wouldn't fit here though..I'm fine with his personality, but his game wouldn't translate since he can't shoot..

[Libri]

but his game wouldn't translate since he can't shoot..

According to 82games, his jump shot eFG% is .398. Yup, its pretty low.

[Obstructed_View]

CDR would reach depths of Pop's doghouse never seen before.

True, until Pop signs him as a free agent about five years from now and makes him a starter.

[MaNu4Tres]

True, until Pop signs him as a free agent about 10 years from now and makes him a starter.

Fixed...

[Bruno]

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=356913


There are plenty of rumors being tossed around, such as Salmons to Orlando for J.J. Redick and Anthony Johnson; or Salmons to San Antonio for Michael Finley and Matt Bonner.

It's likely nothing more than some speculation but...

[DesignatedT]

ill take salmons for bonner and finley... lmao that would be fucking money

[MaNu4Tres]

Salmons for Finley and Bonner would be a no brainer for the Spurs.

If that played out, I would then call GS and offer Mason/Mahimni's expiring for Turiaf.

[Rogue]

Salmons for Finley and Bonner would be a no brainer for the Spurs.

If that played out, I would then call GS and offer Mason/Mahimni's expiring for Turiaf.
for Turkoglu then.

[crc21209]

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=356913


It's likely nothing more than some speculation but...

Damn how I wish this could happen....I wanted Bonner/Finley for Salmons last season during this time..

[TD 21]

Unfortunately, I just read that Dunleavey, if the player(s) coming back are significant enough, won't hesitate to pull the trigger on a trade now. What this means is that the Clippers will likely use Camby's expiring contract, not for the type of assets the Spurs have to offer in return, but to add a player such as Butler.

At this point, I'd say the best that can be hoped for would be Mason, Bonner, Mahinmi (maybe a draft pick as well) for Thomas and Pargo. Even then, I'm skeptical. The Bulls can probably do better for Thomas, if not in a straight up trade, then by putting him into a package to net a significant player in return.

For the Spurs, significant improvement looks like it'll have to come in the form of Splitter, plus whatever they can acquire for Jefferson's expiring contract in the off season/before the '11 trade deadline (of course, there is the outside chance that he miraculously plays half decent in year two with the team).

[objective]

I know a lot of posters here were high on CDR during the draft, would any of you be interested in him now

Nets No Longer Consider CDR A Core Player

Nets forward Chris Douglas-Roberts lost his starting spot to Jarvis Hayes earlier this week.

Douglas-Roberts is no longer considered a core player by New Jersey, sources told the New York Daily News.


I loved CDR before the draft and how he's played has proven he was worth a first round pick (though I'm happy with Hill).

BUT

As I've posted in various Mahinmi-related threads . . . CDR is a guy who is a horrible practice player. Pop would doghouse him guaranteed, even if he never opened his mouth.

[5in10]

SO now that stoudemire isn't going to opt out, wouldn't they save money if we traded them Jefferson? Throw in mason and the rights to splitter...

[Thompson]

SO now that stoudemire isn't going to opt out, wouldn't they save money if we traded them Jefferson? Throw in mason and the rights to splitter...

...and Stoudemire changes his mind and opts out anyway, so we lose Jefferson, Mason, and Splitter for half a season of Stoudemire. No thanks. If they'd do it without Splitter, that's something to talk about.

[5in10]

Yet we will be able to sign a free agent of the 2010 class...

[Ice009]

How about Bonner/Finley for Salmons

and then we trade Roger Mason Jr/Ian Mahinimi and another filler if they want it to Washington for Haywood. Washington get back a player they like in Roger Mason Jr. and a young prospect in Mahinimi. You could even throw in Splitter too.

Spurs new starting 5:

Haywood
Duncan
RJ
Salmons
Parker

Just an example of a couple of smaller trades that can make a BIG difference. Now how do we get those teams to do it?

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

where is the 'jump of cliff' smilie?

I will use that if the Spurs get Haywood :lol

[Spursfanfromafar]

Marc Stein quoting (http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-100206-07/latest-chatter)Dunleavy and the Clips' plan on Camby -


Dunleavy and Olshey have assembled a core that features young cornerstones Blake Griffin and Eric Gordon, vets Chris Kaman and Baron Davis, frontcourt project DeAndre Jordan … and significant salary-cap space this summer if they don't bring back Marcus Camby.

In an interview Thursday with ESPN Radio's L.A. tandem of John Ireland and Steve Mason, Dunleavy also suggested that the Clippers will be looking to make a trade for a top player before the Feb. 18 trading deadline as opposed to waiting for free agency.

"I think if you're given that opportunity, a bird in the hand is the way to go," Dunleavy told Mason and Ireland. "That would be my recommendation, because you just never know. There's too many variables in an offseason. … I'm a firm believer that, given the opportunity to make a good deal that is going to make your team significantly better, do it now. Do it when you can."

The Clips know first-hand how fast things can change in free agency. They won't soon forget the summer of 2008, when Davis signed on to play for his hometown team thinking he'd be teaming up with Elton Brand, only for Brand to sign with Philadelphia.

And Dunleavy's words will only encourage the various Western Conference playoff teams, such as San Antonio and Portland, that have tried without success since last season to convince the Clippers to part with Camby in trade talks.

Said Dunleavy of being restricted to front-office duties after starting the season as the NBA's third longest-tenured coach behind Utah's Jerry Sloan and San Antonio's Gregg Popovich: "The franchise has never been in a better position as far as [having] a nucleus of young talent [along with] expiring contracts coming up this summer. … I feel really good. I feel good because I know the state of the franchise. The state of the franchise is terrific."

[Ice009]

If we were to somehow get Salmons for only Bonner/Finley would anyone be willing to include Splitter to get Haywood? I think you try and get Salmons first and then go for Haywood by including Splitter if that is what it takes.

I think that would be a deadly starting 5. Then you got Manu, Hill, Blair, McDyess off the bench.

[HarlemHeat37]

I would love the Salmons trade if it's followed up by a trade for a big man..I've been watching a lot of Bulls basketball the past few weeks and he's a pretty good defender, definitely better than any of our non-Hill defenders..he's not a shut-down guy in any way at all, not a top defender, but I don't think we're going to find a shut-down perimeter defender anywhere..his offense has heavily regressed though, that would be the concern..he shoots the 3 at 40% though, so I have no doubt that he would fit from a stylistic standpoint..

If we can get Thomas too, I would be very, very happy..I wouldn't expect something that big though, so I would be happy with Salmons + Turiaf or somebody else of that nature..I'm not expecting a guy like Haywood anymore, although that would be a pleasant surprise..

[Blackjack]

As far as just improving the team and giving them the ability to put their best foot forward (they're not winning a Championship having a seed in the 4-6 range and they no longer have arguably the best, most dominant player in the game), Tyrus and Salmons is still the package that makes the most sense to me.

But if you can't get it without using Manu, you go a different route.

Turiaf and Watson was my guess when this rumor started, and Ronny is actually growing on me more and more. It's not so much that I've been impressed with what I've seen from him when healthy, there's been a noticeable fall-off from last year, but his energy and enthusiasm are some intangible factors that the locker room could benefit from; this thing's gone stale and he could be a breath of fresh air.

If he should find the type of game he had last year, he could be a pretty decent coup. He's definitely got a nice complimentary offensive skillset when he's right and, while not a great defender, he's a pretty capable shotblocker and deterrent at the rim.

Salmons and Turiaf would actually be pretty decent (Tyrus is still my first choice of all these role-playing types, though).

[024]

need trade now. time is running out for new players to be integrated.

[Ice009]

I would love the Salmons trade if it's followed up by a trade for a big man..I've been watching a lot of Bulls basketball the past few weeks and he's a pretty good defender, definitely better than any of our non-Hill defenders..he's not a shut-down guy in any way at all, not a top defender, but I don't think we're going to find a shut-down perimeter defender anywhere..his offense has heavily regressed though, that would be the concern..he shoots the 3 at 40% though, so I have no doubt that he would fit from a stylistic standpoint..

If we can get Thomas too, I would be very, very happy..I wouldn't expect something that big though, so I would be happy with Salmons + Turiaf or somebody else of that nature..I'm not expecting a guy like Haywood anymore, although that would be a pleasant surprise..

I like all those too. If we can't get a blockbuster then there are smaller trades that can help us out just as much.

Would you give up Splitter if that is what it took to get Haywood?

[Ditty]

i wouldnt trade splitter for haywood period

I havent gave up on jefferson yet but I would take jamison over him

ian,finley,jefferson for jamison and haywood would work and I would take that

[Crazymaddopeyo]

I'm all for a trade, but why do I feel like nothing is going to happen or if it does it will leave us all scratching our heads?

[Ditty]

I also wonder if spurs would trade iguodala for jefferson straight up and trade finley,bonner, and mihninmi for camby and trade masons and bogan for bell bring up hairston and sign a player that gets bought out later this season(gooden like last year)

[Big P]

I also wonder if spurs would trade iguodala for jefferson straight up and trade finley,bonner, and mihninmi for camby and trade masons and bogan for bell bring up hairston and sign a player that gets bought out later this season(gooden like last year)

Thats realistic.

[Ditty]

Thats realistic.

there thoughts but could be realistic if spurs continue to stuggle

[ducks]

manu for amare

[Rogue]

it's only disastrous to trade manu because Spurs would have to brain on court with Manu gone even though Manu is now quite a mediocre player compared to his teammates in terms of skills and athleticism. That's why i've long advocated a trade targetted at Hedo Turkoglu who will carry on what Manu does and even functions better with skills and athleticism both superior to Manu's.

[Rogue]

manu for amare
why not trade you yourself for Lebron, which does make awesome sense to you IMHO. :wakeup

[Big P]

there thoughts but could be realistic if spurs continue to stuggle

lolwut?

[I. Hustle]

there thoughts but could be realistic if spurs continue to stuggle

They will stuggle for the rest of the season.

[exstatic]

SO now that stoudemire isn't going to opt out, wouldn't they save money if we traded them Jefferson? Throw in mason and the rights to splitter...

They don't want any 2011 contracts for Stoudemire, they want expirings AND either good young talent (read Hill and/or Blair) or good picks (we don't have any).

Phoenix WANTED him to opt out. They're pissed, which is why they're moving him. They won't take a bad contract like RJeff, though. They'd rather lose him for nothing.

[The Truth #6]

I can't see us getting Salmons for Bonner and the ghost of Michael Finley. To me, Salmons is actually a decent player. Does he have a bad contract?

[Boss]

I can't see us getting Salmons for Bonner and the ghost of Michael Finley. To me, Salmons is actually a decent player. Does he have a bad contract?

He signed a 5 yr 25.5 million dollar deal back in 06. I think thats a pretty damn good contract for his production. The Bulls have big plans for this summers free agency and would like to free up as much cap as they can. But trading a good player away like Salmons is risky if ur not sure that u can sign a big free agent this summer.

[phyzik]

I can't see us getting Salmons for Bonner and the ghost of Michael Finley. To me, Salmons is actually a decent player. Does he have a bad contract?

Matt bonner and Michael Finley are expiring contracts. Huge comodities right now, especially with the CBA coming up. Michael Finley is owed $2.5 million this season and Matt bonner is owed $3.2 Million this season. Both will be free agents next year.

John salmons is owed $5.456 million this season and $5.808 million next season.

Bulls get some cap space and save about $250k this season if they buy them both out, Spurs take on basically a 2 year contract of $11.2 million, just about $200k more than what we are paying both Bonner and Finley combined if theoretically extended through next season. (exclaimer, been drinking, math could be off by a few hundred thousand, not sure if I thought it through correctly :lol)

Just saying it could happen if Chicago is looking to clear some space.

[HarlemHeat37]

Salmons isn't part of Chicago's plans at all, they've been looking to move him all season..his offense hasn't been the same as last season, he really needs a change of scenery..

[easy7]

We need someone who is like that John Wayne toilet paper- rough and tough and don't take shit from nobody. I really miss the days when Bowen and Horry were called dirty players... Ahhh, the good old days.

[sa_kid20]

Trading Bonner and Finley for Salmons and then giving Theo Ratliff some minutes as that other big would be a great scenario IMO.

[Boss]

Minor trade that might not excite a lot of people but I think would help the Spurs a lot is Roger Mason jr for Nick Young and Javale Mcgee.
I don't know if Young and Mcgee r in Flips doghouse but they both seem to stuck at the end of the bench. Wizards get a hometown high character player and an expiring contract.
I love the player Young could become which might help w/ a change of scenery and Mcgee is a ligit 7 footer who can get up and block shots and could contribute in an area we need.

[SenorSpur]

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=356913


It's likely nothing more than some speculation but...

Dear God, let it be.

[HarlemHeat37]

You don't like the Salmons trade, Senor?..or you meant let it be, as in let it happen?..

[SenorSpur]

You don't like the Salmons trade, Senor?..or you meant let it be, as in let it happen?..

I meant, please God, let it happen.

That would be like killing two birds with one stone. I've always wanted the Spurs to acquire, or should I say re-acquire Salmons - seeing as how they originally drafted him and all. In trading for Salmons AND getting rid of Finley at the same time, would be like Christmas and New Years Eve all in one day.

"C'mon make my day."

[Blackjack]

According to a source close to the situation, the Clippers have reached out to Thomas -- who coached the Indiana Pacers and also the New York Knicks -- to take over coaching, general manager and president duties. He would replace Mike Dunleavy, who was relieved of his coaching duties earlier this week but remains the general manager. FOXSports.com (http://msn.foxsports.com/cbk/story/Los-Angeles-Clippers-Isiah-Thomas-020510)

29 teams GM's are praying for this to be true; the word "salivating" comes to mind.:lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

Isiah and Marcus Camby are very close, so Isiah getting the job might mean Camby isn't getting traded so that they could be on the same team..just throwing that out there..

Or on the other hand, it might mean that Isiah would want to trade Camby to a place where he could have a shot at the playoffs..

[Ice009]

Isiah and Marcus Camby are very close, so Isiah getting the job might mean Camby isn't getting traded so that they could be on the same team..just throwing that out there..

Or on the other hand, it might mean that Isiah would want to trade Camby to a place where he could have a shot at the playoffs..

I seriously doubt Isiah would give us anything after that Nazr Mohammed trade where not many people were too pleased with him giving us that piece to help win it all.

[MaNu4Tres]

I seriously doubt Isiah would give us anything after that Nazr Mohammed trade where not many people were too pleased with him giving us that piece to help win it all.

New York got David Lee in return for the trade. I'm pretty sure everyone understood that trade from both angles.

[mountainballer]

There are plenty of rumors being tossed around, such as Salmons to Orlando for J.J. Redick and Anthony Johnson; or Salmons to San Antonio for Michael Finley and Matt Bonner.

it's a rumor, sure, but it has so many logical and typical Spurs aspects, that I think it's ok to assume that the Spurs at least inquired about the asking price for Salmons, or the Bulls inquired if the Spurs are still interested in him.

-Spurs wanted him last deadline, but the Kings wanted a team that also takes Brad Miller off their hands. (reportedly they offered Bruce plus Ime). so, other than many other names in several speculations, we know they think he would fit.
-the price for Salmons might be as low as ever thanks to the Bulls FA plans this summer. we know the Spurs are a buy low team in general. if he could be get by just ship Fin and Bonner to Chicago, it's an upgrade, no matter what needs we would rank higher.
-this trade wouldn't put much pressure on the Spurs future financially, it could even become a somehow cost saving move, because the Spurs face less pressure in the negotiations to fill the other wing spots 2010. (especially regarding Manu)
-even a Salmons in a so-so form offers some qualities Spurs currently lack. he has the size to defend big guards and most SFs, this would free the Spurs to play Bogans for this kind of defense. (I wouldn't be surprised if Bogans is part of the package).
30 minutes from Salmons instead of 20 from Bogans plus 10 from Finley IS a huge upgrade.
(ironically it might have the most noticeable effect for the small ball line up: Manu -Salmons-RJ looks much less undersized than something like Manu-Bogans-RJ or Hill-Manu-RJ)
-as mentioned, such a trade would leave the Spurs with still enough pieces to go for a big man trade like the mentioned Haywood. (and the blockbuster some dream about would see Manu as the centerpiece of the Spurs package anyhow)

if it's on the table.......please do it!

[Bruno]

Salmons has had an horrible start of the season but is playing better now. A Ginobili/Salmons/Jefferson wing rotation with Hill also playing some SG minutes would be damn great.
Saying that, a trade Salmons that includes Bonner should be followed by a trade for a bigman.

[024]

i wish the spurs got salmons last year, that way there was no need to acquire jefferson over the summer. maybe then, the spurs could have used their expirings for a big instead of scrambling to find one now.

[admiralsnackbar]

it's only disastrous to trade manu because Spurs would have to brain on court with Manu gone even though Manu is now quite a mediocre player compared to his teammates in terms of skills and athleticism. That's why i've long advocated a trade targetted at Hedo Turkoglu who will carry on what Manu does and even functions better with skills and athleticism both superior to Manu's.

No mames.

[mountainballer]

Salmons has had an horrible start of the season but is playing better now. A Ginobili/Salmons/Jefferson wing rotation with Hill also playing some SG minutes would be damn great.
Saying that, a trade Salmons that includes Bonner should be followed by a trade for a bigman.

my guess would have been, that the Bulls would prefer a Mason plus filler package anyhow.
(Mason plus Finley? buyout for Fin?)
Brad Miller does much of what Bonner would bring them and Deng also plays some PF as a floor stretcher.
Mason looks a bit more like the player, who could get regular rotation minutes, especially because in Salmons they loose their most consistent shooter this season.

[Bruno]

my guess would have been, that the Bulls would prefer a Mason plus filler package anyhow.
(Mason plus Finley? buyout for Fin?)
Brad Miller does much of what Bonner would bring them and Deng also plays some PF as a floor stretcher.
Mason looks a bit more like the player, who could get regular rotation minutes, especially because in Salmons they loose their most consistent shooter this season.

I'm not a fan of trading Mason and Finley for Salmons. I think Spurs main priority should be to add a solid bigman and after that trade, Spurs likely won't have enough salaries to match salaries for a trade.

IMO, the best package for Salmons would be Mason, Mahinmi and a min salary player (Hairston, Ratliff or Bogans). Another interesting scenario would be that Salmons to Spurs is a part of a biggest trade where Spurs got a solid bigman form a third team.

[The Truth #6]

I'm curious how the FO would see Salmons: as someone to play alongside Manu or would this mean Manu is more likely to be traded if Salmons is acquired. I suppose it depends on if we can get a big without trading Manu?

[MaNu4Tres]

Salmons has had an horrible start of the season but is playing better now. A Ginobili/Salmons/Jefferson wing rotation with Hill also playing some SG minutes would be damn great.
Saying that, a trade Salmons that includes Bonner should be followed by a trade for a bigman.

So are you now somewhat sold on improving our 3 wing rotation?

What do you think about Turiaf as a big man target?

[Bruno]

So are you now somewhat sold on improving our 3 wing rotation?

I've never been not sold on improving our 3 wing rotation.



What do you think about Turiaf as a big man target?

Turiaf isn't very good when he is healthy and he hasn't been healthy this year.

[Muser]

Turiaf? urgh no thanks..

[CGD]

I think the best big man help the Spurs are going to get this season is sitting on their bench. If we bring in another big, it would be to give us 8-10min of solid defense. Theo is the best option out there for this year IMO. (Plus we don't wanna discourage Tiago this summer by signing another big long-term)

In the little he's played this year, he's been good. I wonder if the rise of Blair made him an after thought in Pop's mind, or if we can expect to see more of him down the stretch.

[Muser]

Is Splitter actually any good? I know he has a half decent offensive game but is a poor rebounder, how is his D?

[DPG21920]

What does everyone make of Pop's comments about "don't hold your breath..." with regards to a trade happening. Do you think that means they are not looking seriously or was he just speaking to the difficulty of making a trade in this league?

[dbestpro]

I'm not a fan of trading Mason and Finley for Salmons. I think Spurs main priority should be to add a solid bigman and after that trade, Spurs likely won't have enough salaries to match salaries for a trade.

IMO, the best package for Salmons would be Mason, Mahinmi and a min salary player (Hairston, Ratliff or Bogans). Another interesting scenario would be that Salmons to Spurs is a part of a biggest trade where Spurs got a solid bigman form a third team.

How about Mason, Bonner, Finley and Mahinmi for Thomas, Salmons and Pargo?

Actually I think it can be done better through a second team.

[MaNu4Tres]

What does everyone make of Pop's comments about "don't hold your breath..." with regards to a trade happening. Do you think that means they are not looking seriously or was he just speaking to the difficulty of making a trade in this league?

They have to be looking seriously. The team is struggling. Every team in the league is trying to make calls and explore ways to improve their team for now or for the future.

I think Pop means there is a slim chance of a trade going through, just for the fact that so many things have to fit and factor in nicely for a trade to fall through.

[Muser]

What does everyone make of Pop's comments about "don't hold your breath..." with regards to a trade happening. Do you think that means they are not looking seriously or was he just speaking to the difficulty of making a trade in this league?

I just think it's hard to make a trade, IIRC didn't RC say they had been trying to get Jefferson for quite a while?

[Chomag]

What does everyone make of Pop's comments about "don't hold your breath..." with regards to a trade happening. Do you think that means they are not looking seriously or was he just speaking to the difficulty of making a trade in this league?

I think thats just Pop's way of saying anything could happen. If he were not looking I believe he would just say his "we are not trading anyone speach" So he is just leaving it out there with the possibilties.

He didn't get the reputation of "CIA POP" for nothing.:lol

[xtremesteven33]

27 pages of nothing...

[DPG21920]

27 pages of hope...

fify

[rayray2k8]

27 pages of nothing...

yeah pretty much. but at least its keeping from opening new trade for this guy thread.

[Chomag]

Funy part is the source that started this. What do Kings anouncers know what everyone else dosn't?

[Bruno]

What Pop say has zero value. In 05, he said just before the deadline that Spurs wouldn't make a trade and they traded Malik for Nazr.

The thing to understand with Pop is that his goal isn't to tell the truth to journalist but what can help the most his team. The most useful for Spurs is to claim that they aren't really looking to make a trade for two reasons. First, it doesn't put them in a weakness situation of being a team that has to make a trade when they talk with another team. Second, it doesn't put Spurs' players in a bad situation where they feel that the staff doesn't trust them.

Pop is just saying the right thing. It could be the truth or a lie.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Funy part is the source that started this. What do Kings anouncers know what everyone else dosn't?

The Kings announcer who made the comment is also the Kings Director of Player Personnel (i.e., R.C. Buford's job in the Sacto organization).

So yeah, he talks trades every day as part of his job. Safe bet he's got a clue...

[Bruno]

How about Mason, Bonner, Finley and Mahinmi for Thomas, Salmons and Pargo?

Actually I think it can be done better through a second team.

I'm quite unsettled on Tyrus Thomas. I don't really know what to think about him.

I quite like your trade even if I would do it without Pargo included for luxury tax reasons (so Mason+Bonner+Finley+Mahinmi for Thomas+Salmons). Spurs would need a shooter after that so it woudl be nice if Finley could be bought out and come back after 30 days. Otherwise, Spurs would have to look at a shooter on the FA market where there are better options than Pargo.

[exstatic]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:eMmU1R2x_7gPFM:http://7million7years.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/deal-no-deal.jpg

[DPG21920]

I don't see how anyone can argue against TT, if the Spurs get him for Bonner/Finley or something similar. You may question his game, but no matter what he can do no worse than the players going out and there is significant reason to believe he can do much better. He showed that in the playoffs.

[weebo]

Don't expect anything to get done. I think Pop and RC understand that we have too many new faces as it is and adding one or more mid season would be like completely overhauling the entire make up of the team that is still learning on court team chemistry.

If something is done, it won't be anything worthwhile and probably something just to save a few dollars.

[exstatic]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:eMmU1R2x_7gPFM:http://7million7years.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/deal-no-deal.jpg


Don't expect anything to get done. I think Pop and RC understand that we have too many new faces as it is and adding one or more mid season would be like completely overhauling the entire make up of the team that is still learning on court team chemistry.

If something is done, it won't be anything worthwhile and probably something just to save a few dollars.

This.

[Blackjack]

I don't see how anyone can argue against TT, if the Spurs get him for Bonner/Finley or something similar. You may question his game, but no matter what he can do no worse than the players going out and there is significant reason to believe he can do much better. He showed that in the playoffs.

I concur.:tu

I really don't get the intelligence arguments, either. This is basketball we're talking about and nothing about his role would suggest him being anymore than a finisher offensively and using his natural, instinctive gifts defensively.

For those who just say he's not the prototypical Spur, I'd tend to agree. But those are a lot of the same people that advocated for RJ because of a perceived feeling about his character, not his on-court game.

The bottom line is, Tyrus could help this team; the package they'd put together would almost surely benefit them on the basketball end, as it's a financial move for the Bulls.

With Tim now going the way of the old aircraft carrier, he simply can't get out on the floor and defend these athletic, face-up 4's. And with the team in need of shot-blocking, preferably in the form of someone that can play alongside him a good amount of minutes, there's just not a much better, more feasible option out there.

For all the talk of Tyrus' low basketball IQ, it's worth acknowledging he's played for one of the better defensive teams over the last few years and played a good role in it. He's a good weakside shotblocker, he can guard out on the floor (even does a credible job switching on wings at times), he's a deer in transition (both ways) and he doesn't need the ball to produce offense (finishes the pass with a face-up jumper, an oop, or gets what he gets off broken plays and garbage around the basket).

Yeah, he'll make a boneheaded play from time-to-time, but, generally, the pros outweigh the cons. And, at least with him, when he makes a bad rotation or gets beat off the dribble, the play isn't necessarily over; athleticism like his always keeps him in the play (I realize that's a foreign concept for we Spurs fans).

This team isn't winning the Championship as is and the vast majority of these trade scenarios aren't going to change that. But moves along the lines of Thomas and Salmons make the team a better, more versatile foe.

[Duncan2177]

I concur.:tu

I really don't get the intelligence arguments, either. This is basketball we're talking about and nothing about his role would suggest him being anymore than a finisher offensively and using his natural, instinctive gifts defensively.

For those who just say he's not the prototypical Spur, I'd tend to agree. But those are a lot of the same people that advocated for RJ because of a perceived feeling about his character, not his on-court game.

The bottom line is, Tyrus could help this team; the package they'd put together would almost surely benefit them on the basketball end, as it's a financial move for the Bulls.

With Tim now going the way of the old aircraft carrier, he simply can't get out on the floor and defend these athletic, face-up 4's. And with the team in need of shot-blocking, preferably in the form of someone that can play alongside him a good amount of minutes, there's just not a much better, more feasible option out there.

For all the talk of Tyrus' low basketball IQ, it's worth acknowledging he's played for one of the better defensive teams over the last few years and played a good role in it. He's a good weakside shotblocker, he can guard out on the floor (even does a credible job switching on wings at times), he's a deer in transition (both ways) and he doesn't need the ball to produce offense (finishes the pass with a face-up jumper, an oop, or gets what he gets off broken plays and garbage around the basket).

Yeah, he'll make a boneheaded play from time-to-time, but, generally, the pros outweigh the cons. And, at least with him, when he makes a bad rotation or gets beat off the dribble, the play isn't necessarily over; athleticism like his always keeps him in the play (I realize that's a foreign concept for we Spurs fans).

This team isn't winning the Championship as is and the vast majority of these trade scenarios aren't going to change that. But moves along the lines of Thomas and Salmons make the team a better, more versatile foe.

:tu

[portnoy1]

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if we kept the players we had from last year and used the 2007-08 lineups and rotations with Hill/Blair included. Would we have the same record? would our defense be better? Would we be able to execute in the forth?

[5in10]

^ me too. Imagine how far along Blair and hill would be, and all the touches/shots they would get.

[doobs]

Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if we kept the players we had from last year and used the 2007-08 lineups and rotations with Hill/Blair included. Would we have the same record? would our defense be better? Would we be able to execute in the forth?

Eh, KT and Oberto and Udoka were garbage. And Bowen was slowing down and, for some reason, in Pop's doghouse. (I think Bowen still has 15 mpg in him, but whatever.)

The Spurs upgraded in the offseason. It's just taking time for everything to fall in place. It's obvious that they're improving, if you watch the games.

[Mr Bones]

One thing that strikes me as very strange is how Pop, while praising Blair for his hustle and basketball IQ, often questions how he will fit in defensively as an undersized big man... but then he runs a small ball line-up and Jefferson or Finley are playing the 4 position. If a bulky wide-body like Blair is suspect defensively at the PF spot, how can Pop justify his whole small ball infatuation?

[portnoy1]

One thing that strikes me as very strange is how Pop, while praising Blair for his hustle and basketball IQ, often questions how he will fit in defensively as an undersized big man... but then he runs a small ball line-up and Jefferson or Finley are playing the 4 position. If a bulky wide-body like Blair is suspect defensively at the PF spot, how can Pop justify his whole small ball infatuation?
Parker/Manu/Bowen/TD/Oberto. That was the lineup IMO. You had a fluid offense that kept the ball moving, and you had protected paint on the other end, even if it meant Oberto taking a charge instead of blocking a shot.

[Mr Bones]

Parker/Manu/Bowen/TD/Oberto. That was the lineup IMO. You had a fluid offense that kept the ball moving, and you had protected paint on the other end, even if it meant Oberto taking a charge instead of blocking a shot.

Yeah, I agree. I think one area where Phil Jackson outcoaches Pop is in his appreciation for defensive length. I find it frustrating that guys who were chosen for their defensive abilities-- Hill, Bogans, etc.-- are constantly put into situations where they are asked to guard much taller players, which seems to me to somewhat negate their advantage as defenders.

[Mr Bones]

To clarify, I'd say Hill has the chance to be a great defender against most PGs, but probably only a good one against most SGs. It's not a huge difference, but if you're giving up these small advantages at one or two spots for 10-15 mpg, that could easily be a 5 point swing, which is enough to turn close wins into tight games... and tight games into losses.

[SenorSpur]

I concur.:tu

I really don't get the intelligence arguments, either. This is basketball we're talking about and nothing about his role would suggest him being anymore than a finisher offensively and using his natural, instinctive gifts defensively.

For those who just say he's not the prototypical Spur, I'd tend to agree. But those are a lot of the same people that advocated for RJ because of a perceived feeling about his character, not his on-court game.

The bottom line is, Tyrus could help this team; the package they'd put together would almost surely benefit them on the basketball end, as it's a financial move for the Bulls.

With Tim now going the way of the old aircraft carrier, he simply can't get out on the floor and defend these athletic, face-up 4's. And with the team in need of shot-blocking, preferably in the form of someone that can play alongside him a good amount of minutes, there's just not a much better, more feasible option out there.

For all the talk of Tyrus' low basketball IQ, it's worth acknowledging he's played for one of the better defensive teams over the last few years and played a good role in it. He's a good weakside shotblocker, he can guard out on the floor (even does a credible job switching on wings at times), he's a deer in transition (both ways) and he doesn't need the ball to produce offense (finishes the pass with a face-up jumper, an oop, or gets what he gets off broken plays and garbage around the basket).

Yeah, he'll make a boneheaded play from time-to-time, but, generally, the pros outweigh the cons. And, at least with him, when he makes a bad rotation or gets beat off the dribble, the play isn't necessarily over; athleticism like his always keeps him in the play (I realize that's a foreign concept for we Spurs fans).

This team isn't winning the Championship as is and the vast majority of these trade scenarios aren't going to change that. But moves along the lines of Thomas and Salmons make the team a better, more versatile foe.

SOLD! :clap

I admit that I've been a bit lukewarm on TT. However, all your points make sense to me and I like a potential frontcourt rotation that includes both Blair and Thomas. However, the biggest roadblock in making this happen, to me, is Pop.

The problem is that the Spurs currently have a player similar to TT on the bench, in Ian Mahinmi. We all know that the coach has soured on him, for no apparent reason. It wouldn't take long for Pop to sour on TT.

Salmons and Thomas represent an ideal trade scenario for the Spurs. Players that would help fill two positions and both would give the Spurs better contributions than they are getting from the current incumbents right now. Plus, both players would help bridge the gap between for the next several years.

I'm with you in that the potential rewards would outweigh the occasional bone-headed plays. That's part of the growing pains with young players and a consequence of the Spurs complex system. To me, it's worth the risk.

Veteran experience and corporate knowledge be dammed. After all, the Spurs are losing games now with veterans who supposedly are loaded with these traits. Time to take a chance and upgrade the talent and skill level.

[ChumpDumper]

So the Spurs were in fact not really close to a deal.

[xtremesteven33]

Bonner/Finley

:lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

So Tyrus Thomas just got suspended for complaining about his playing time(and other stuff that hasn't been disclosed) and they're reportedly trying harder to trade him now..

I don't think the Spurs would really care about this since Jax is still a favorite, but I would assume that Pop would ask VDN about Thomas if the Spurs were discussing a trade(like Larry Brown asked Pop about Jackson) and that probably wouldn't go well since Del Negro and Thomas haven't seen eye to eye about his role/playing time..

[slick'81]

So Tyrus Thomas just got suspended for complaining about his playing time(and other stuff that hasn't been disclosed) and they're reportedly trying harder to trade him now..

I don't think the Spurs would really care about this since Jax is still a favorite, but I would assume that Pop would ask VDN about Thomas if the Spurs were discussing a trade(like Larry Brown asked Pop about Jackson) and that probably wouldn't go well since Del Negro and Thomas haven't seen eye to eye about his role/playing time..

he could really be on the way out if im the spurs im all over that kid

[cdcast]

How bout this 3 team trade:

Spurs get Haywood and Salmons
Bulls get Bonner, Finley, and Mason
Wizards get Thomas and Mahinmi

Spurs get their big and wing, Bulls get their expiring contracts,
and Wizards get two young bigs to replace Haywood.

(This trade worked in the Trade Machine)

[Flux451]

Trading or staying with current roster are both gambles as far as building something championship worthy. And I haven't seen anyone state a name that is worth trading for.

I think we should hold our guns tight and see what the draw looks like later.

[Ice009]

How bout this 3 team trade:

Spurs get Haywood and Salmons
Bulls get Bonner, Finley, and Mason
Wizards get Thomas and Mahinmi

Spurs get their big and wing, Bulls get their expiring contracts,
and Wizards get two young bigs to replace Haywood.

(This trade worked in the Trade Machine)

That is a nice trade. That is very similar to the two separate trades I mentioned a few pages back.

mine were Bonner, Finley to Chicago for Salmons and then
Mason Jr., Mahinimi and filler (Bogans, Hairston or Ratliff) to Washington for Haywood.

Starting 5 would be the same as yours:

Haywood
Duncan
RJ
Salmons
Parker

I like your trade a lot better though Cdcast as it makes sense for both teams. The Bulls get some shooters who are also expiring contracts and the Wizards get some young bigs. I'd offer this immediately. If it's not enough would anyone offer Splitter to one of the teams if that got it done?

Then if you want to get silly and offer RJ for Iguodala straight up and see if the 76ers want to do a Grizzlies like trade I am all for that too ;).

[MaNu4Tres]

How bout this 3 team trade:

Spurs get Haywood and Salmons
Bulls get Bonner, Finley, and Mason
Wizards get Thomas and Mahinmi

Spurs get their big and wing, Bulls get their expiring contracts,
and Wizards get two young bigs to replace Haywood.

(This trade worked in the Trade Machine)



Wizards wouldn't agree to that trade and the Bulls would want an asset for the future.

Bulls would need a 1st round pick at least from the Spurs. And the Wizards would need a first round pick and or Splitter from the Spurs. IMO

The Wizards getting a 2 month rental in Thomas doesn't help their situation now or for the future.

[Ice009]

Wizards wouldn't agree to that trade and the Bulls would want an asset for the future.

Bulls would need a 1st round pick at least from the Spurs. And the Wizards would need a first round pick and or Splitter from the Spurs. IMO

The Wizards getting a 2 month rental in Thomas doesn't help their situation now or for the future.

Would you include a first round pick or Splitter to get it done?

[mingus]

call me crazy but i think the Spurs can still win it all with this team. Pop's reluctance to not compensate for the inherent, immutable average-good perimeter defense on this team is killing us. he needs to insert one of Mahinmi or Ratliff into the rotation of bigs. with Dyce starting to come into his own, that leaves Blair as the odd man out. having at least one seven footer with shot blocking capabilites in the paint at all times will force opposing teams' perimeter players into harder shots. leaving Blair out is a hard thing to do given the fact that he's definitely a talented player and his potential isn't yet fully realized, but he's redundant with McDyess in their already and he's a liability with opposing teams' guards getting into the paint almost at will these days (a direct result of the absense of Bowen). i don't know why Pop hasn't considered any of this. he's tweaking/shuffling the perimeter rotations what seems every game, yet he's reluctant to explore his big options.

pop has just pretty much had his head up his ass in regards to this. not saying what i said is going to remedy this team's problems, but at this point you've got to start looking at everything.

[cdcast]

Wizards wouldn't agree to that trade and the Bulls would want an asset for the future.

Bulls would need a 1st round pick at least from the Spurs. And the Wizards would need a first round pick and or Splitter from the Spurs. IMO

The Wizards getting a 2 month rental in Thomas doesn't help their situation now or for the future.

With Thomas in trouble with Bulls now, he might be had without
giving up a pick.

For the Wizards, Spurs give them their 1st rd. pick.

[Ice009]

call me crazy but i think the Spurs can still win it all with this team. Pop's reluctance to not compensate for the inherent, immutable average-good perimeter defense on this team is killing us. he needs to insert one of Mahinmi or Ratliff into the rotation of bigs. with Dyce starting to come into his own, that leaves Blair as the odd man out. having at least one seven footer with shot blocking capabilites in the paint at all times will force opposing teams' perimeter players into harder shots. leaving Blair out is a hard thing to do given the fact that he's definitely a talented player and his potential isn't yet fully realized, but he's redundant with McDyess in their already and he's a liability with opposing teams' guards getting into the paint almost at will these days (a direct result of the absense of Bowen). i don't know why Pop hasn't considered any of this. he's tweaking/shuffling the perimeter rotations what seems every game, yet he's reluctant to explore his big options.

pop has just pretty much had his head up his ass in regards to this. not saying what i said is going to remedy this team's problems, but at this point you've got to start looking at everything.

Crazy, that doesn't mean you're wrong, but I will call you crazy ;).

[MaNu4Tres]

With Thomas in trouble with Bulls now, he might be had without
giving up a pick.



You don't understand.

Why would the Wizards trade a valuable trade asset ( Haywood) for a 2 month rental that doesn't help their situation now or for the future? That's stupid.

[Chieflion]

You don't understand.

Why would the Wizards trade a valuable trade asset ( Haywood) for a 2 month rental that doesn't help their situation now or for the future? That's stupid.
It pretty much goes the same for us. Why the heck would the Spurs give a 1st round pick or Splitter for Haywood who might be a 2 month rental for us? Unless he pretty much guarantees a championship.

[MaNu4Tres]

It pretty much goes the same for us. Why the heck would the Spurs give a 1st round pick or Splitter for Haywood who might be a 2 month rental for us? Unless he pretty much guarantees a championship.

No it's not the same thing.

Wizards have no shot at making the playoffs to contend for a title, therefore the moves they will make will be for: A) To help their financial situation in the near and far future or B) To attain assets such as picks to help their future personnel. They won't make trades for THE NOW because they have no shot at anything.

Therefore Wizards trading Haywood out for the 2 month rental of Thomas ( which would be the best piece in that proposed trade going to the Wizards) makes absolutely no sense since no picks and no assets ( such as a cheap young prospect on a rookie scale contract) are included.

Wizards would be giving away Haywood with absolutely nothing to show for it 2 months down the road. That's why the trade makes no sense.

On the other hand...

Spurs will make the playoffs and have a shot to compete for a championship this year. Haywood would improve the Spurs chances this year and that's why a 1st round pick would be needed in the deal. It's the same situation when we got Kurt Thomas ( who we gave up a first round pick for). Same situation when we got Nazr Mohammed ( who we gave up 2 first round picks for; one pick for Nazr's acquisition; one pick for them to take on the rest of Malik Rose's contract).

[Chieflion]

No it's not the same thing.

Wizards have no shot at making the playoffs to contend for a title, therefore the moves they will make will be for: A) To help their financial situation in the near and far future or B) To attain assets such as picks to help their future personnel. They won't make trades for THE NOW because they have no shot at anything.

Therefore Wizards trading Haywood out for the 2 month rental of Thomas ( which would be the best piece in that proposed trade going to the Wizards) makes absolutely no sense since no picks and no assets ( such as a cheap young prospect on a rookie scale contract) are included.

On the other hand...

Spurs will make the playoffs and have a shot to compete for a championship this year. Haywood would improve the Spurs chances this year and that's why a 1st round pick would be needed in the deal. It's the same reason why we got Kurt Thomas ( who we gave up a first round pick for). Same reason why we got Nazr Mohammed ( who we gave up 2 first round picks for; one pick for Nazr's acquisition; one pick for them to take on the rest of Malik Rose's contract).
I don't think you get it. With or without Nazr that year, the Spurs were still contenders. This year is different. The Spurs, currently constructed, have so many problems, I don't see them as contenders. We all know Kurt Thomas failed. As much as I like Haywood, I would think the Spurs would rather keep that higher 1st round pick in the earlier twenties at this point as opposed to absorbing the contract of Deshawn Stevenson which ends in 2011 so that they can keep adding younger talent and be prepared for Duncan's departure.

[MaNu4Tres]

I don't think you get it. With or without Nazr that year, the Spurs were still contenders. This year is different. The Spurs, currently constructed, have so many problems, I don't see them as contenders. We all know Kurt Thomas failed. As much as I like Haywood, I would think the Spurs would rather keep that higher 1st round pick in the earlier twenties at this point as opposed to absorbing the contract of Deshawn Stevenson which ends in 2011 so that they can keep adding younger talent and be prepared for Duncan's departure.

Nazr improved the Spurs. Spurs were contenders yes. But Nazr improved their chances from 4 to 1 to probably 2 to 1 that year.

As long as Spurs are in the playoff hunt they will try to make moves to improve their roster to enhance their chances to compete for a championship.

Of course Spurs wouldn't want to have to include a 1st rounder for Haywood. I'm sure they didn't want to include a 1st to get Kurt Thomas or Nazr. But they had to since the teams they were dealing with wanted assets for the FUTURE such as picks as compensation; since the other pieces in the deal didn't help the Sonics and Knicks situation for NOW or for the future.

[blkroadrunners]

Warriors waive Craig Claxton:

http://warriors.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/10555/warriors-waive-claxton-and-why-it-matters/

Think the Spurs should pick him up just as a 3rd string PG?

[TD 21]

On second thought, I've once again devised another theoretical trade in which the Spurs could acquire Camby. It's one that satisfies all three teams needs...

Clippers get: Butler

Spurs get: Camby

Wizards get: Mason, Bonner, Finley, Splitter, 1st round pick

A quick note: Ratliff could technically be put into the package instead of Finley, but it's irrelevant, as I suspect the Wizards would immediately buy out either and allow them to sign with a contender. My guess is both, particularly Finley, would re-up with the Spurs for the remainder of the season.

Why each team would do this

Clippers: Admittedly looking for an impact player now, rather than waiting for the summer, have a need for a starting SF and are unlikely to attract anyone better than Butler.

Spurs: It's obvious why they'd do this, so I won't even bother getting into this, other than to say the only reason they'd consider not doing this is if they value Splitter so much that they can't bring themselves to part with him for an injury prone, 35-year old player.

Wizards: They're looking to re-build, reportedly prefer to move Butler before Jamison and would not only get a cadre of expiring contracts, but a 1st round pick and a quality prospect who could (if they trade or don't re-sign Haywood) theoretically step into their starting center spot next season, if they're successful in convincing him to come to the NBA.

[Sean Cagney]

:lol
Warriors waive Craig Claxton:

http://warriors.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/10555/warriors-waive-claxton-and-why-it-matters/

Think the Spurs should pick him up just as a 3rd string PG?

LOL that Craig really threw me off man, NEVER heard him called that before in my life...:lol

[Chieflion]

Nazr improved the Spurs. Spurs were contenders yes. But Nazr improved their chances from 4 to 1 to probably 2 to 1 that year.

As long as Spurs are in the playoff hunt they will try to make moves to improve their roster to enhance their chances to compete for a championship.

Of course Spurs wouldn't want to have to include a 1st rounder for Haywood. I'm sure they didn't want to include a 1st to get Kurt Thomas or Nazr. But they had to since the teams they were dealing with wanted assets for the FUTURE such as picks as compensation; since the other pieces in the deal didn't help the Sonics and Knicks situation for NOW or for the future.
I still have the defensive big man like Haywood near the top of the needed list no doubt. Let's see the Spurs needs this season, I will list them and you will see how ridiculously flawed this team really is. This team has heavily regressed since last season. I hate giving up 1st round picks year after year. You would think this has bitten the Spurs up in the ass already.

Perimeter defender (Battier, Iggy)
Interior defender and prsence (Haywood, Camby, Dalembert)
Perimeter playmaker (Iggy, Butler)
Back-up tweener forward (Ryan Gomes)
Back-up PG (Ramon Sessions)

Now, I consider George Hill as a 2-guard, so I think a back-up point guard is really necessary, but he really doesn't have to be as good as Sessions. Notice how the 76ers and the Wizards have two players that fit the description of the upper needs of the Spurs and the Wolves have two of them as well. Since Manu, can't carry the Spurs anymore, I really wanted Iggy, but it is near impossible.

[MaNu4Tres]

On second thought, I've once again devised another theoretical trade in which the Spurs could acquire Camby. It's one that satisfies all three teams needs...

Clippers get: Butler

Spurs get: Camby

Wizards get: Mason, Bonner, Finley, Splitter, 1st round pick

A quick note: Ratliff could technically be put into the package instead of Finley, but it's irrelevant, as I suspect the Wizards would immediately buy out either and allow them to sign with a contender. My guess is both, particularly Finley, would re-up with the Spurs for the remainder of the season.





Why each team would do this

Clippers: Admittedly looking for an impact player now, rather than waiting for the summer, have a need for a starting SF and are unlikely to attract anyone better than Butler.

Spurs: It's obvious why they'd do this, so I won't even bother getting into this, other than to say the only reason they'd consider not doing this is if they value Splitter so much that they can't bring themselves to part with him for an injury prone, 35-year old player.

Wizards: They're looking to re-build, reportedly prefer to move Butler before Jamison and would not only get a cadre of expiring contracts, but a 1st round pick and a quality prospect who could (if they trade or don't re-sign Haywood) theoretically step into their starting center spot next season, if they're successful in convincing him to come to the NBA.

Better trade proposal than most on here,

My question is this,

If Spurs only plan on playing Camby 20-25 minutes (not even half the game) at best (Like how they used Kurt Thomas in the 2008 playoffs) , would a 1st round pick and Splitter be worth it for the Spurs?

Do you think cutting Blair and McDyess' minutes in favor of a center who's best days are behind him and is on his last legs improves the Spurs?

[MaNu4Tres]

I still have the defensive big man like Haywood near the top of the needed list no doubt. Let's see the Spurs needs this season, I will list them and you will see how ridiculously flawed this team really is. This team has heavily regressed since last season. I hate giving up 1st round picks year after year. You would think this has bitten the Spurs up in the ass already.

Perimeter defender (Battier, Iggy)
Interior defender and prsence (Haywood, Camby, Dalembert)
Perimeter playmaker (Iggy, Butler)
Back-up tweener forward (Ryan Gomes)
Back-up PG (Ramon Sessions)

Now, I consider George Hill as a 2-guard, so I think a back-up point guard is really necessary, but he really doesn't have to be as good as Sessions. Notice how the 76ers and the Wizards have two players that fit the description of the upper needs of the Spurs and the Wolves have two of them as well. Since Manu, can't carry the Spurs anymore, I really wanted Iggy, but it is near impossible.

I think everything that is not bolded is irrelevant and Spurs shouldn't be worried about. Back up tweener forward is over-rated and a back up point guard is not what this team needs. George Hill is perfectly fine being a point guard 10-15 minutes a game. He's done the best job at back up point than any back up point guard the Spurs have had the past 10 years.

[TJastal]

Better trade proposal than most on here,

My question is this,

If Spurs only plan on playing Camby 20-25 minutes (not even half the game) at best (Like how they used Kurt Thomas in the 2008 playoffs) , would a 1st round pick and Splitter be worth it for the Spurs?

Do you think cutting Blair and McDyess' minutes in favor of a center who's best days are behind him and is on his last legs improves the Spurs?

Camby is too old at this point to help IMO. Spurs frontline needs to youth and athleticism. Mahinmi is perfect for this role.

The suns thought Robin Lopez was a scrub till they gave him a legitimate chance to play and all of a sudden the suns are winning games again.

[Ice009]

Warriors waive Craig Claxton:

http://warriors.blogs.pressdemocrat.com/10555/warriors-waive-claxton-and-why-it-matters/

Think the Spurs should pick him up just as a 3rd string PG?

Is he hurt? Can he play?

[SenorSpur]

Nazr improved the Spurs. Spurs were contenders yes. But Nazr improved their chances from 4 to 1 to probably 2 to 1 that year.

As long as Spurs are in the playoff hunt they will try to make moves to improve their roster to enhance their chances to compete for a championship.

Of course Spurs wouldn't want to have to include a 1st rounder for Haywood. I'm sure they didn't want to include a 1st to get Kurt Thomas or Nazr. But they had to since the teams they were dealing with wanted assets for the FUTURE such as picks as compensation; since the other pieces in the deal didn't help the Sonics and Knicks situation for NOW or for the future.

As an aging team, that is facing a rebuilding effort in the next year or two, the Spurs can ill-afford to keep throwing away picks and at the same time improving the rosters of other teams. No more jettisoning 1st round picks.

The Spurs were incredibly fortunate in last year's NBA draft, by having DeJuan Blair literally fall into their laps at the #37 pick of the second round. This despite not having a 1st round pick because of the Kurt Thomas trade the year before.

First round picks are like gold. They are precious assets. No more giving away picks.

[Chieflion]

I think everything that is not bolded is irrelevant and Spurs shouldn't be worried about. Back up tweener forward is over-rated and a back up point guard is not what this team needs. George Hill is perfectly fine being a point guard 10-15 minutes a game. He's done the best job at back up point than any back up point guard the Spurs have had the past 10 years.
That's ok. I had them at the bottom of my list anyway. I just thought that since the Spurs always get burned by tweener atheltic forwards, they needed one too. If anyone thinks George Hill can play PG, so be it. I really have no complaints about that.

[HarlemHeat37]

I disagree..if we can get a good asset for this year by adding the 1st round pick as a sweetener, I'm all for it..we already have Blair and Hill for next year, we have Hairston being developed as a rotation player for next year, and there's the potential addition of De Colo as a D-League player or even better if he impresses in Summer League(assuming the buyout works out)..there's also the potential big signing of Splitter..

I wouldn't give up a 1st rounder AND Splitter for Camby, but I would do it for Thomas/Salmons or Haywood+the inside track at signing him to a multi-year contract..

[Ice009]

Is he hurt? In NBA years he is almost dead.

Well I guess it was a stupid question lol. No need to rub it in Phila ;).

I haven't seen him play so I guess he is hurt? If he's not hurt then he must not play because his game has regressed, but could it have regressed that much?

[MaNu4Tres]

Camby is too old at this point to help IMO. Spurs frontline needs to youth and athleticism. Mahinmi is perfect for this role.

The suns thought Robin Lopez was a scrub till they gave him a legitimate chance to play and all of a sudden the suns are winning games again.

That is why I'm in favor of an all around wing acquisition opposed to a big man. I don't think there's a big man out there besides Amare that's good enough to make a significant impact. What I mean by significant impact is that he's significantly better than what we already have (Blair/ McDyess) and will get 28-35 minutes a night because he's that good. I don't think Camby or Haywood are that.

I'd target an upgrade in an all around wing first and foremost if I'm the Spurs because that's where the play has been so erratic all season offensively ( as shown in this thread http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145650 ) and defensively they have been terrible as a group. This upgrade would take over the Mason/Bogans/ Finley combination and spell some of Hill, Manu and Jefferson's minutes at the wing whichever is struggling.


I would love a trade for both a wing and big. But if I had to choose between one or the other. I think an upgrade all around wing would improve the Spurs more.

[TD 21]

Better trade proposal than most on here,

My question is this,

If Spurs only plan on playing Camby 20-25 minutes (not even half the game) at best (Like how they used Kurt Thomas in the 2008 playoffs) , would a 1st round pick and Splitter be worth it for the Spurs?

Do you think cutting Blair and McDyess' minutes in favor of a center who's best days are behind him and is on his last legs improves the Spurs?

My guess is Camby would play 25-30 mpg actually and that's because I'd expect, at least by the playoffs, the Spurs to go to a three man big rotation, featuring Duncan, McDyess and Camby.

I know what you're saying, but if the Spurs think that Camby gives them an opportunity to legitimately compete for a championship, then they'd probably do it (like I said, though, it depends on how highly they value Splitter).

Camby is still an elite rebounder/shot-blocker. It improves the chances, how much I'm not sure. If I had to guess, my sense is Thomas and Pargo for expiring contracts is the trade the Spurs will make, if they make one at all. Here's why...


But that figure doesn't include a $14.2 million cap hold for Tyrus Thomas, space that must be allocated to him that includes the $6.3 million qualifying offer he'll be due as a restricted free agent. That's why league sources believe the Bulls will try to package Thomas in a significant deal for expiring contracts -- such as a proposal under consideration that would also send Kirk Hinrich to Boston for Ray Allen's $19.7 million expiring deal -- or in a separate deal to one of several Western Conference contenders that have inquired about Thomas' availability (javascript:newwind('http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/12888861/bulls-could-go-from-marginal-to-marvelous-by-playing-their-cap-right','107')). If the Bulls could move Hinrich and Thomas -- who has long been attractive to the Celtics -- they'd be looking at more than $20 million of space. If they could find a taker for John Salmons, they'd be closing in on enough money to land two significant free agents. While everyone continues to focus on the Knicks and Nets as potential winners of the free-agent summer of 2010, this scenario would put the Bulls in a position to steal the show. CBSSports.com (javascript:newwind('http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/12888861/bulls-could-go-from-marginal-to-marvelous-by-playing-their-cap-right','107'))


The more I think about it, the more I think the Spurs are interested in an athletic, mobile four, mainly for defensive purposes. Granted, he's more limited than Camby, but if the Spurs really valued having another rim protecting center, wouldn't they play Ratliff more? People can talk about saving him for the playoffs all they want, the reality it's not like he'll ever be needed for 30 mpg.

[Ice009]

I disagree..if we can get a good asset for this year by adding the 1st round pick as a sweetener, I'm all for it..we already have Blair and Hill for next year, we have Hairston being developed as a rotation player for next year, and there's the potential addition of De Colo as a D-League player or even better if he impresses in Summer League(assuming the buyout works out)..there's also the potential big signing of Splitter..

I wouldn't give up a 1st rounder AND Splitter for Camby, but I would do it for Thomas/Salmons or Haywood+the inside track at signing him to a multi-year contract..

I'm on board with giving up a first round pick.

I have now asked this question numerous times, but no one has answered until now. If the deal is right would anyone be willing to include Splitter to get a deal done?

The Haywood one if a perfect example. If we have to give them Splitter and can resign Haywood to a multi year deal is it worth it? There aren't many players I would give up Splitter for though, but Haywood might be one.

[TJastal]

That is why I'm in favor of an all around wing acquisition opposed to a big man. I don't think there's a big man out there besides Amare that's good enough to make a significant impact. What I mean by significant impact is that he's significantly better than what we already have (Blair/ McDyess) and will get 28-35 minutes a night because he's that good. I don't think Camby or Haywood are that.

I'd target an upgrade in an all around wing first and foremost if I'm the Spurs because that's where the play has been so erratic all season offensively ( as shown in this thread http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145650 ) and defensively they have been terrible as a group. This upgrade would take over the Mason/Bogans/ Finley combination and spell some of Hill, Manu and Jefferson's minutes at the wing whichever is struggling.


I would love a trade for both a wing and big. But if I had to choose between one or the other. I think an upgrade all around wing would improve the Spurs more.

I agree a wing to play Bogans/Finley minutes would be nice..

why not try Malik Hairston?