Official Trade Deadline Speculation Thread

[MaNu4Tres]

I agree a wing to play Bogans/Finley minutes would be nice..

why not try Malik Hairston?

It's too late to find out. Maybe next year.

[Ice009]

Splitter is really good. Think of Marc Gasol right now. I remember Marc was once asked about Splitter and he said that if the Spurs had Splitter it would be game over. The Spurs would have to trade for someone really worth it. I imagine that Splitter is even better than Scola.

I recall that comment and it is basically the only reason I am willing to hold onto him.

He hasn't really impressed me more than Scola did. To me Scola was way more impressive before he got to the NBA than Splitter, and Marc Gasol himself has gotten way better since he made that comment.

Where do you think Splitter ranks amongst those 3 right now? I would rate him 3rd. Do you think he will be better than those 2 once he gets to the NBA and improves his game? Do you think he is better now than either Scola or Gasol?

[MaNu4Tres]

My guess is Camby would play 25-30 mpg actually and that's because I'd expect, at least by the playoffs, the Spurs to go to a three man big rotation, featuring Duncan, McDyess and Camby.

I know what you're saying, but if the Spurs think that Camby gives them an opportunity to legitimately compete for a championship, then they'd probably do it (like I said, though, it depends on how highly they value Splitter).

Camby is still an elite rebounder/shot-blocker. It improves the chances, how much I'm not sure. If I had to guess, my sense is Thomas and Pargo for expiring contracts is the trade the Spurs will make, if they make one at all. Here's why...


But that figure doesn't include a $14.2 million cap hold for Tyrus Thomas, space that must be allocated to him that includes the $6.3 million qualifying offer he'll be due as a restricted free agent. That's why league sources believe the Bulls will try to package Thomas in a significant deal for expiring contracts -- such as a proposal under consideration that would also send Kirk Hinrich to Boston for Ray Allen's $19.7 million expiring deal -- or in a separate deal to one of several Western Conference contenders that have inquired about Thomas' availability (javascript:newwind('http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/12888861/bulls-could-go-from-marginal-to-marvelous-by-playing-their-cap-right','107')). If the Bulls could move Hinrich and Thomas -- who has long been attractive to the Celtics -- they'd be looking at more than $20 million of space. If they could find a taker for John Salmons, they'd be closing in on enough money to land two significant free agents. While everyone continues to focus on the Knicks and Nets as potential winners of the free-agent summer of 2010, this scenario would put the Bulls in a position to steal the show. CBSSports.com (javascript:newwind('http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/12888861/bulls-could-go-from-marginal-to-marvelous-by-playing-their-cap-right','107'))


The more I think about it, the more I think the Spurs are interested in an athletic, mobile four, mainly for defensive purposes. Granted, he's more limited than Camby, but if the Spurs really valued having another rim protecting center, wouldn't they play Ratliff more? People can talk about saving him for the playoffs all they want, the reality it's not like he'll ever be needed for 30 mpg.

I would rather make a move for Thomas because it would give us flexibility to make another move for a wing. With Camby we pretty much give up all our expiring contracts ( Spurs best trading assets outside of Manu).

Move for Haywood or Thomas and the possibility of adding an upgrade at the wing to a possible Manu/R.J rotation >>> Making a move for Camby and having to rely on the Mason/Bogans/Finley combination.

[MaNu4Tres]

That's the story of Malik's career so far.

And that is Pop's fault.

Spurs shouldn't have signed Bogans, or they should have tried packaging Mason/Finley/ Bonner/Mahimni for Jackson and Turiaf whenever Jackson was able to be had for basically nothing. If one of those situations played out, Hairston would have gotten a better opportunity since he would have been higher on Pop's depth chart. Then we could have known what we really had in Hairston.

Both Mahimni and Hairston got the short end of the stick this year. That's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

[TD 21]

I would rather make a move for Thomas because it would give us flexibility to make another move for a wing. With Camby we pretty much give up all our expiring contracts ( Spurs best trading assets outside of Manu).

Move for Haywood or Thomas and the possibility of adding an upgrade at the wing to a possible Manu/R.J rotation >>> Making a move for Camby and having to rely on the Mason/Bogans/Finley combination.

The more I think about it, I would too. It goes against a lot of what I said about needing another center-sized big, but if the Spurs really need that for stretches in a particular series, they still have Ratliff. Having a mobile, athletic four, who can defend those types is looking more valuable to have on this team by the game.

HarlemHeat37 is right, Splitter AND a 1st is a steep price to pay for Camby. A 1st, Mahinmi and expiring contracts is a no-brainer, but throwing Splitter into the mix is probably too much.

Haywood wouldn't fit. Duncan is strictly a center at this point in his career and Haywood always has been. Could he be the primary Nowitzki defender in a series? West? Boozer? Aldridge? Gasol? I know he's a solid defender, but I question whether he could effectively guard these types throughout a series. Thomas, theoretically, can. And with his improving mid-range jumper and freakish athleticism leading to occasional assaults on the rim, he could keep them honest defensively.

With Thomas, the Spurs would have a decision to make in the off season. Five top 3-4 bigs on the team and they can't all play. Trade McDyess and Duncan lacks an experienced big next to him. Splitter could become an asset then for a wing stopper, such as Batum possibly, or someone of that ilk.

Ideally, the Spurs get away with Bonner, Finley and Mahinmi for Thomas and Pargo. I'd prefer to keep Mason out of the trade; Finley would probably get bought out and re-sign.

[exstatic]

I don't think you get it. With or without Nazr that year, the Spurs were still contenders. This year is different. The Spurs, currently constructed, have so many problems, I don't see them as contenders. We all know Kurt Thomas failed. As much as I like Haywood, I would think the Spurs would rather keep that higher 1st round pick in the earlier twenties at this point as opposed to absorbing the contract of Deshawn Stevenson which ends in 2011 so that they can keep adding younger talent and be prepared for Duncan's departure.

Adding late first round talent now or not will have NO bearing on the post-Duncan Spurs. They'll drop into the lottery with a thud, regardless. If you can spend the pick to make Duncan's last 2.5 years better, you don't hold back.

[Chieflion]

Adding late first round talent now or not will have NO bearing on the post-Duncan Spurs. They'll drop into the lottery with a thud, regardless. If you can spend the pick to make Duncan's last 2.5 years better, you don't hold back.
That is just being short-sighted. The earlier twenties picks in recent years have proven they can be rotation players and some of them have star potential. There are some players drafted at the twenties who dropped out of the lottery and have lottery potential.

[Blackjack]

I'm down with the Spurs giving up their first-rounder but to give that and Splitter up for someone like Camby (a guy who makes them better but isn't enough, imo, to get them over the top), that's not something I'd sign off on.

I don't have a problem giving up the first and Splitter for a difference-making player or someone that could help them to win next year, but a guy like Haywood would only be worth it to me if I believed Splitter wasn't coming over; I just don't see Haywood being able to play the type of minutes you'd pay someone of his caliber with an aging Duncan at the "4".

That's why a Thomas-Salmons trade is the best way to go, if possible, imo. It improves them by addressing (not perfectly, but addresses nonetheless) their two most glaring needs and puts two more cogs into the mix that could potentially help next year as well; they'd be able to take a look-see and determine for themselves at least.

Like I said before, these suggested moves (Haywood, Camby, Thomas, Salmons, etc.) moves aren't putting this team back in the Finals without an act of Jebus (or the Spurs' answer to Jerry West), so I'd rather they improve their team and be able to keep those two assets; this year's result won't end much different.

[HarlemHeat37]

Thomas-Salmons is my favorite deal that we've discussed too, but I don't know if Pop would take on a headcase like Thomas(I hope he would)..

Regarding Splitter, if we decide not to give him up and then he doesn't come over, you can guess what kind of reaction that would spark from the fanbase..

[Slinkyman]

I'm down with the Spurs giving up their first-rounder but to give that and Splitter up for someone like Camby (a guy who makes them better but isn't enough, imo, to get them over the top), that's not something I'd sign off on.

I don't have a problem giving up the first and Splitter for a difference-making player or someone that could help them to win next year, but a guy like Haywood would only be worth it to me if I believed Splitter wasn't coming over; I just don't see Haywood being able to play the type of minutes you'd pay someone of his caliber with an aging Duncan at the "4".

That's why a Thomas-Salmons trade is the best way to go, if possible, imo. It improves them by addressing (not perfectly, but addresses nonetheless) their two most glaring needs and puts two more cogs into the mix that could potentially help next year as well; they'd be able to take a look-see and determine for themselves at least.

Like I said before, these suggested moves (Haywood, Camby, Thomas, Salmons, etc.) moves aren't putting this team back in the Finals without an act of Jebus (or the Spurs' answer to Jerry West), so I'd rather they improve their team and be able to keep those two assets; this year's result won't end much different.

I agree with your Thomas-Salmons take, that would probably be the best thing for the spurs at this point. Right now the spurs have what other teams want, expiring contracts. Spurs are the ones with the leverage in that regard, the bulls need to dump salary more then the Spurs need Salmons or Thomas or both.

There are more teams that want to be players in this summers FA's market then have expiring deals like the spurs. If i'm the spurs i sit back and wait for the best deal. The same thing i hope they do with RJ, keep him until next season and get a real good offer for his expiring deal. Bottom line is the spurs have no business giving up a 1st or Splitter right now.

[HarlemHeat37]

ESPN has reported that Thomas and Hinrich have been the Bulls' 2 players that have received the most calls regarding offers, and Salmons has received some as well..they are supposedly not open to dealing anybody else unless it's a no-brainer, and they're also skeptical about dealing Hinrich since the organization loves him..

So it looks like it's likely that Thomas and/or Salmons are going to get traded..it should be interesting to see if the Spurs show some significant interest..I bet they will with Salmons, but I don't know about TT..

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm down with the Spurs giving up their first-rounder but to give that and Splitter up for someone like Camby (a guy who makes them better but isn't enough, imo, to get them over the top), that's not something I'd sign off on.

I don't have a problem giving up the first and Splitter for a difference-making player or someone that could help them to win next year, but a guy like Haywood would only be worth it to me if I believed Splitter wasn't coming over; I just don't see Haywood being able to play the type of minutes you'd pay someone of his caliber with an aging Duncan at the "4".

That's why a Thomas-Salmons trade is the best way to go, if possible, imo. It improves them by addressing (not perfectly, but addresses nonetheless) their two most glaring needs and puts two more cogs into the mix that could potentially help next year as well; they'd be able to take a look-see and determine for themselves at least.

Like I said before, these suggested moves (Haywood, Camby, Thomas, Salmons, etc.) moves aren't putting this team back in the Finals without an act of Jebus (or the Spurs' answer to Jerry West), so I'd rather they improve their team and be able to keep those two assets; this year's result won't end much different.

I'm starting to become a huge homer on the proposed Salmons/ Thomas deal.

It would help the team on both ends of the floor and make our team extremely versatile. It would be a significant upgrade and a change of such could just be what the Spurs need to compete with the top teams and give them a chance.


Parker 32-37 minutes
Salmons 25-30 minutes
Jefferson 28-33 minutes
Tim 33-38 minutes
McDyess 20-25 minutes

Manu 26-31 minutes
Hill 24-29 minutes
Blair 20-25 minutes
Thomas 18-23 minutes

Very solid 9 man rotation that consist of players that are anything but one dimensional. Our 48 minute attack would be efficient on both ends and would be more so of an "48 minutes of hell" for the opposition.

Bogans -DNP unless foul trouble or an injury
Ratliff- 10-15 minutes against LA or DNP's unless foul trouble or an injury
L. Hunter- DNP unless Hill injury or inactive list
Hairston- DNP unless foul trouble or injury or inactive list

What would the trade take now?

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yfs3dzr

A first round pick and or Splitter?

I think in order for Bulls to really consider it, the Spurs would have to throw in a 1st rounder and Splitter. Would you do it?

[Chieflion]

On that Thomas/Salmons deal, no Splitter. I am ok with the first round pick if the guarantee is that Thomas is not an idiot.

[HarlemHeat37]

The 2nd unit would be amazingly energetic and explosive with Manu-Thomas-Hill-Blair..I can only dream of the highlights..

[HarlemHeat37]

On that Thomas/Salmons deal, no Splitter. I am ok with the first round pick if the guarantee is that Thomas is not an idiot.

Well, you can't really change that, Thomas is an idiot either way..very low basketball IQ..I would believe that playing in a more controlled system and playing with Duncan/McDyess would have a great influence on him though..

[TD 21]

I'm starting to become a huge homer on the proposed Salmons/ Thomas deal.

It would help the team on both ends of the floor and make our team extremely versatile. It would be a significant upgrade and a change of such could just be what the Spurs need to compete with the top teams and give them a chance.


Parker 32-37 minutes
Salmons 25-30 minutes
Jefferson 28-33 minutes
Tim 33-38 minutes
McDyess 20-25 minutes

Manu 26-31 minutes
Hill 24-29 minutes
Blair 20-25 minutes
Thomas 18-23 minutes

Very solid 9 man rotation that consist of players that are anything but one dimensional. Our 48 minute attack would be efficient on both ends and would be more so of an "48 minutes of hell" for the opposition.

Bogans -DNP unless foul trouble or an injury
Ratliff- 10-15 minutes against LA or DNP's unless foul trouble or an injury
L. Hunter- DNP unless Hill injury or inactive list
Hairston- DNP unless foul trouble or injury or inactive list

What would the trade take now?

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yfs3dzr

A first round pick and or Splitter?

I think in order for Bulls to really consider it, the Spurs would have to throw in a 1st rounder and Splitter. Would you do it?

Man, you're as in-depth as me in my thinking, right down to the rotation, the minutes, etc. I like it.

I doubt Thomas-Salmons would be the trade, though. Salmons is too shot happy and moody to willingly play the role of fifth option/defensive stopper. Besides, even though he's a solid defender, he's not a stopper (not that Bogans is, but he's cheap). I agree it improves the team, but I think if the Spurs acquire Thomas, it'll be along with Pargo. Although, maybe that's the catch with getting Thomas for expiring contracts, is taking Salmons' contract off the Bulls hands.

[Blackjack]

If they could pull off and Iggy-Dalembert trade and didn't because of Splitter, I'd be pissed. But in the case of Haywood and Camby, I just don't see it meaning a title this year, and I don't think the fit (Haywood) and age (Camby) would leave me too bent out of shape as it pertains to next year.

In all honesty, I'm not as high on Splitter as most seem to be. He'll be a nice addition but he's not some great defender (solid position defender, not real disruptive) or as big and skilled offensively as Gasol (whom he's often compared to).

He will come at a much more appropriate price for the role he'd be playing, so that's definitely something that plays into my thinking, but if he doesn't come and it ends up costing them Haywood or Camby this year?

I wouldn't be all that butt-hurt..

[Chieflion]

Well, you can't really change that, Thomas is an idiot either way..very low basketball IQ..I would believe that playing in a more controlled system and playing with Duncan/McDyess would have a great influence on him though..
I really am not that high on those two, theoretically, they solve some problems. I was watching Salmons just now with the Bulls game. Whenever he gets the ball, it is an isolation play or pick and roll. It has to be a style preference and that he is much more effective being the playmaker, I would consider starting him but one has to wonder if his situation would be similar to RJ. Thomas is a big idiot. No questions about that. He was an idiot with Scott Skiles, anyone actually thinks it is going to change?

[HarlemHeat37]

I like the Salmons fit better because he's a much better defender than Jefferson and he's also a better 3-point shooter..his offense has fallen off this season, he needs a change of scenery IMO..

Thomas won't be much less of an idiot, but his talent and physical attributes are undeniable and would fill major needs for the Spurs..if we get him, we will certainly have to live with some boneheaded plays..

It's a risk, but almost any trade that is going to happen is a risk..the only certainty is that the Spurs DO need a trade..this current team isn't going to be enough to get to the 2nd round..

With Haywood, there will still be an issue with defending the bigs with an outside J..

With Camby, there's still a major issue with defending the p&r and a minor issue with defending post-up players that Duncan doesn't pick up..also the age issue..

With guys like Raja Bell, there's a serious age issue that this team already struggles with..

With minor trades like Turiaf/Watson, there's the obvious lack of talent issue..

Any non-Gasol like trade is a risk..

[Chieflion]

I like the Salmons fit better because he's a much better defender than Jefferson and he's also a better 3-point shooter..his offense has fallen off this season, he needs a change of scenery IMO..

Thomas won't be much less of an idiot, but his talent and physical attributes are undeniable and would fill major needs for the Spurs..

It's a risk, but almost any trade that is going to happen is a risk..the only certainty is that the Spurs DO need a trade..this current team isn't going to be enough to get to the 2nd round..
You made me miss Corey Brewer's amazing dunk. Either way, like I said, they solve some problems, I was actually wondering how Salmons with a 17.8% usage rate works here. He could very well end up not producing without the ball.

[Blackjack]

Yeah, NBA TV's pregame of Bulls-Heat had Chicago's beat writer or some such on and he made it pretty clear that the Bulls were looking to do a salary dump and that Salmons and Hinrich were the two most likely candidates. Salmons' option has them fretting a bit and, even though they'd love to keep Hinrich, moving him might be a necessary evil for them to find the money for a max player next year.

I'm pretty sure the Spurs have what it takes to land Salmons and hopefully the emergence of Gibson and recent friction with Thomas is enough to have him included.

[MaNu4Tres]

I really am not that high on those two, theoretically, they solve some problems. I was watching Salmons just now with the Bulls game. Whenever he gets the ball, it is an isolation play or pick and roll. It has to be a style preference and that he is much more effective being the playmaker, I would consider starting him but one has to wonder if his situation would be similar to RJ. Thomas is a big idiot. No questions about that. He was an idiot with Scott Skiles, anyone actually thinks it is going to change?

Salmons has more quickness and has better ball-handling to create effectively off the dribble from the triple threat position with the ball, whether it be penetrating from a jab step or the pick and roll or a hesitation move. He's more effective than R.J in any of those situations.

You think since R.J can make some athletic highlights above the rim, and since he avg. 19 points a game from a terrible Bucks team then he should be able to create offense ( Like I had originally thought). That is not the case. Salmons is a much better offensive player in the half-court than R.J. Therefore Salmons can make more out less touches in the half-court than R.J.

Also, Spurs need another play-making threat with the ball than Manu/ Parker and Hill anyway. It will only make things so much easier for the rest of the team. We all thought R.J was going to be it but we were wrong about that.

[ace3g]

one thing I like about Salmons is that he is an underrated passer , in a lot of games I've seen, he gets 5+ assists. So he is also a playmaker that even when his shot is not falling will look for others

[Chieflion]

Salmons has more quickness and has better ball-handling to create effectively off the dribble from the triple threat position with the ball, whether it be penetrating from a jab step or the pick and roll or a hesitation move. He's more effective than R.J in any of those situations.

You think since R.J can make some athletic highlights above the rim from time to time then he should be able to create off the dribble pretty effective ( Like I had originally thought). That is not the case. Salmons is a much better offensive player in the half-court than R.J. Therefore Salmons can make more out less touches in the half-court than R.J.

Also, Spurs need another play-making threat with the ball than Manu/ Parker and Hill anyway. It will only make things so much easier for the rest of the team. We all thought R.J was going to be it but we were wrong about that.
Like I stated, we needed a playmaker, and I saw Salmons play just now, he can create, but he also needs the ball, well you need the ball to create. RJ can't create, I thought that was obvious right from the start of the season. We don't need Salmons to jack up 3s though, I think Rose's emergence made him handle the ball less, making him less efficient. I think his situation is quite similar with RJ but it is obvious he can do the job better.

[Blackjack]

Salmons is a bit of a poor man's Pierce offensively. The way they iso- and attack off the dribble, and even how they post off the dribble for a turnaround jumper... There's just a bit of a point-forward aspect, which would benefit the Spurs; they just flat-out need a better player for the position/role.

[HarlemHeat37]

Chieflion's concerns are legit and he makes good points..it's all relative though..there aren't many realistic options that could give us off-ball production offensively + defense, unless we could somehow get a blockbuster for Iguodala, which won't happen..

[Dro210]

Thomas suspended one game

By Nick Friedell
ESPNChicago.com

Chicago Bulls forward Tyrus Thomas has been suspended for one game for conduct detrimental to the team.


Thomas, who earlier in the season was sidelined seven weeks with a broken left forearm, will miss Saturday's contest against the Miami Heat at the United Center.


The team did not give specifics on the reason for the suspension.


"It's unfortunate," Bulls coach Vinny Del Negro said. "It's an internal matter. [Bulls GM] Gar [Forman] and myself will handle it. We've got to focus in on the game [Saturday night] and try to find a way to play better in the last few games to get a win."

Thomas' suspension is another blow to a team that had lost three straight and was already short-handed up front for Saturday's game, with Joakim Noah sidelined by plantar fasciitis in his left foot that is expected to keep him out until after the All-Star break.


"It's unfortunate timing, but in the short run there's a responsibility," Del Negro said. "No one player is bigger than the team, and there's a responsibility to do things right. And I think by handling the situation the right way, which I think we are, I know we are. It's not one person. It's a group. And you have to be committed to your teammates, your coaches, the organization. That doesn't go just for Tyrus. It goes for everybody. The guys know how things run around here. That's how it's going to be."

Asked about the suspension, Bulls veteran guard Lindsey Hunter suggested the 23-year-old Thomas may still have some growing up to do.


"Life is full of trials and tribulations," Hunter said. "If you get frustrated every time you have [a problem] then you're going to live a pretty frustrated life.


"We all have areas in our life we need to grow up in. As long as you realize it and you constantly work on those things, eventually you conquer your own demons. I think that's a battle within he has to work on."


Thomas is averaging 8.5 points and 6.2 rebounds over 25 games in his fourth season


Don't know if anybody has seen or posted this...

but it's well known that Ty has been unhappy with his playing time. (and who could blame him?) With Noah out until after the break, EVERYBODY expected him to see the floor more. Last night it didn't happen, Brad Miller got the start and the extra minutes. He obviously voiced his opinion on it once again, and they suspended him for it...

This makes me think the probability of him being moved goes up quite a bit.

That Thomas/Salmons deal is lookin real good right about now!

[Blackjack]

He's bent because he felt he lost the job due to injury. Gibson's been playing well for them which makes Tyrus more expendable than ever.

It's funny, I suggested this trade months ago as being the type of package that Manu would bring back (something I wouldn't have pulled the trigger on), so if the Spurs can get them for their expirings, that'd really be some shit..

[exstatic]

Don't know if anybody has seen or posted this...

but it's well known that Ty has been unhappy with his playing time. (and who could blame him?) With Noah out until after the break, EVERYBODY expected him to see the floor more. Last night it didn't happen, Brad Miller got the start and the extra minutes. He obviously voiced his opinion on it once again, and they suspended him for it...

This makes me think the probability of him being moved goes up quite a bit.

That Thomas/Salmons deal is lookin real good right about now!

:lmao Delusional Spurs fans make me laugh. You think Pop is going to be salivating over acquiring a player that mouths off to the coach when he doesn't get minutes? :lol

[MaNu4Tres]

Like I stated, we needed a playmaker, and I saw Salmons play just now, he can create, but he also needs the ball, well you need the ball to create. RJ can't create, I thought that was obvious right from the start of the season. We don't need Salmons to jack up 3s though, I think Rose's emergence made him handle the ball less, making him less efficient. I think his situation is quite similar with RJ but it is obvious he can do the job better.


You need the ball to create yes.

But situations where Tony and Manu penetrate and kick out to a corner or up top to a player in the triple threat position is where our offense would improve. Usually this happens and Mason/Bogans/ Finley/ Jefferson are the recipients of the pass. They are then forced to attempt a bad shot as the clock is winding down because they can't create an efficient opportunity for themselves or others from the triple threat position.

As you notice from the thread... http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145650 ...our perimeter players struggle significantly against good teams ( hence our 11-20 record against teams over .500). Because those teams play better defense than the lottery teams. ( More aware and quicker on rotations, close out to our shooters quicker and with more discipline, recover quicker, contest better, ect.)

These situations is where Salmons could help.

Same could be said whenever Tim has the ball inside and kicks out because of a trap or double team.

[Dro210]

Yea, ok buddy....

If you can't see how much better those 2 guys would make this team, I feel sorry for you.

[Chieflion]

You need the ball to create yes.

But situations where Tony and Manu penetrate and kick out to a corner or up top to a player in the triple threat position is where our offense would improve. Usually this happens and Mason/Bogans/ Finley/ Jefferson are the recipients of the pass. They are then forced to attempt a bad shot as the clock is winding down because they can't create an efficient opportunity for themselves or others from the triple threat position.

As you notice from the thread... http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145650 ...our perimeter players struggle significantly against good teams ( hence our 11-20 record against teams over .500). Because they play good defense. ( Rotate quicker, recover quicker, contest better, ect.)

These situations is where Salmons could help.

Same could be said whenever Tim has the ball inside and kicks out because of a trap or double team.
Agree. I didn't come here to say Salmons sucks or what not. That wasn't my intention. I lobbied for him last season.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Don't know if anybody has seen or posted this...

but it's well known that Ty has been unhappy with his playing time. (and who could blame him?) With Noah out until after the break, EVERYBODY expected him to see the floor more. Last night it didn't happen, Brad Miller got the start and the extra minutes. He obviously voiced his opinion on it once again, and they suspended him for it...

This makes me think the probability of him being moved goes up quite a bit.

That Thomas/Salmons deal is lookin real good right about now!

The scary thing about this though is now knowing how Thomas reacts to having his playing time limited (if that is the reason for the issues and the resulting suspension). With Pop's tendencies to fluctuate lineups combined with how easy it is to find your way into Pop's doghouse, why on earth does this not spell disaster if he were to find his way onto our roster?

[HarlemHeat37]

Thomas' suspension is the reason I don't think we'll get him..

His relationship with VDN is probably shaky, so if Pop asks Vinny for an opinion(which he probably would), then it probably wouldn't be flattering for TT..

[Chieflion]

Thomas' suspension is the reason I don't think we'll get him..

His relationship with VDN is probably shaky, so if Pop asks Vinny for an opinion(which he probably would), then it probably wouldn't be flattering for TT..
I still dislike Tyrus Thomas. I think there is something seriously wrong with him when he cannot beat out rookie Taj Gibson for minutes and Brad Miller.

[exstatic]

Yea, ok buddy....

If you can't see how much better those 2 guys would make this team, I feel sorry for you.

You just don't understand the Spurs AT ALL if you think there is even .0001% chance that they get a bonehead like TT.

Pop's requirement is that a player "get over himself". You have to be about team, not your touches or shots or minutes. TT is way too immature to do anything but sit in Pop's doghouse. A player like that generally won't come around until they get done with their rookie deals and they have to go begging hat in hand for a contract.

[exstatic]

The scary thing about this though is now knowing how Thomas reacts to having his playing time limited (if that is the reason for the issues and the resulting suspension). With Pop's tendencies to fluctuate lineups combined with how easy it is to find your way into Pop's doghouse, why on earth does this not spell disaster if he were to find his way onto our roster?


Thomas' suspension is the reason I don't think we'll get him..

His relationship with VDN is probably shaky, so if Pop asks Vinny for an opinion(which he probably would), then it probably wouldn't be flattering for TT..


I still dislike Tyrus Thomas. I think there is something seriously wrong with him when he cannot beat out rookie Taj Gibson for minutes and Brad Miller.

See? I'm not the only one that sees this, Dro.

[MaNu4Tres]

With Pop's tendencies to fluctuate lineups combined with how easy it is to find your way into Pop's doghouse, why on earth does this not spell disaster if he were to find his way onto our roster?

Pop's tendencies to fluctuate the lineups have more to do with the quality of our roster 8-15. There's not much of a drop-off in talent anywhere from 8-15. It's easy for any coach to fluctuate line-ups with the situation Spurs have now.

But if that trade is made, the quality of our roster improves from 1-9 significantly, opposed to the quality our roster has 1-7 now.

If the trade goes down then there's a significant drop-off talent wise from 10-13. Therefore playing time for certain players would be a much easier decision from the coaches stand-point.

[Dro210]

I just think Spurs fans are too quick to jump on people's character (way more-so than the team itself).... I don't see Thomas as a bad guy. He's 100% right about his situation. I remember him in college, and I remember him against the C's last year. That guy LOVES to win.... and Chicago is a better team when he plays.

Here, if he couldn't find his way to significant minutes, which I think he could definitely do. He'd understand what he was brought in for, this is a fresh start, not the team that took him in the lottery where he expected to start and become a star.... He'd be playing on a better team, behind better players than he is now if he did sit. I like what Gibson has done, but he's not better than Thomas. Miller is a vet and he can spread the floor, but he's not close to Thomas. It's crazy to me that Chicago didn't embrace the Noah/Thomas frontcourt and run with it.... They could be the best defensive team in the league with the right coaching and discipline.

[Chieflion]

I just think Spurs fans are too quick to jump on people's character (way more-so than the team itself).... I don't see Thomas as a bad guy. He's 100% right about his situation. I remember him in college, and I remember him against the C's last year. That guy LOVES to win.... and Chicago is a better team when he plays.

Here, if he couldn't find his way to significant minutes, which I think he could definitely do. He'd understand what he was brought in for, this is a fresh start, not the team that took him in the lottery where he expected to start and become a star.... He'd be playing on a better team, behind better players than he is now if he did sit. I like what Gibson has done, but he's not better than Thomas. Miller is a vet and he can spread the floor, but he's not close to Thomas. It's crazy to me that Chicago didn't embrace the Noah/Thomas frontcourt and run with it.... They could be the best defensive team in the league with the right coaching and discipline.
All of these may be true. But you don't have to be a big idiot and demand playing time for everyone to hear.

[Dro210]

Did he say it in the media (what he got suspended for today)?.......... No, this was a behind the scenes

I don't like Paxson as a GM, or Del Negro as a coach... so imo, if the Spurs base their opinion off those guys, that would be a mistake.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Pop's tendencies to fluctuate the lineups have more to do with the quality of our roster 8-15. There's not much of a drop-off in talent anywhere from 8-15. It's easy for any coach to fluctuate line-ups with the situation Spurs have now.

But if that trade is made, the quality of our roster improves from 1-9 significantly, opposed to the quality our roster has 1-7 now.

If the trade goes down then there's a significant drop-off talent wise from 10-13. Therefore playing time for certain players would be a much easier decision from the coaches stand-point.

I don't disagree with anything you've posted here, but my point after reading it I suppose is that Thomas may not be able to cement himself as one of the players ranked 1-9 in your formula/scenario. I could be wrong, because I admittedly do not watch him play on a nightly basis. I would be willing to live with the deal if it brought us Salmons though.

[MaNu4Tres]

Here, if he couldn't find his way to significant minutes, which I think he could definitely do. He'd understand what he was brought in for, this is a fresh start, not the team that took him in the lottery where he expected to start and become a star.... He'd be playing on a better team, behind better players than he is now if he did sit.

This...

[MaNu4Tres]

I don't disagree with anything you've posted here, but my point after reading it I suppose is that Thomas may not be able to cement himself as one of the players ranked 1-9 in your formula/scenario.


I'm starting to become a huge homer on the proposed Salmons/ Thomas deal.

It would help the team on both ends of the floor and make our team extremely versatile. It would be a significant upgrade and a change of such could just be what the Spurs need to compete with the top teams and give them a chance.


Parker 32-37 minutes
Salmons 25-30 minutes
Jefferson 28-33 minutes
Tim 33-38 minutes
McDyess 20-25 minutes

Manu 26-31 minutes
Hill 24-29 minutes
Blair 20-25 minutes
Thomas 18-23 minutes

Very solid 9 man rotation that consist of players that are anything but one dimensional. Our 48 minute attack would be efficient on both ends and would be more so of an "48 minutes of hell" for the opposition.

Bogans -DNP unless foul trouble or an injury
Ratliff- 10-15 minutes against LA or DNP's unless foul trouble or an injury
L. Hunter- DNP unless Hill injury or inactive list
Hairston- DNP unless foul trouble or injury or inactive list

What would the trade take now?

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yfs3dzr

A first round pick and or Splitter?

I think in order for Bulls to really consider it, the Spurs would have to throw in a 1st rounder and Splitter. Would you do it?

[lurker23]

I like the idea of Salmons + Pargo. I agree that personality issues likely keep the Spurs from going after Thomas.

Here's a question for everyone. Let's assume for a second that the only trade the Spurs pull off is for Salmons and possibly Pargo, Bonner is involved in that trade, and the Spurs make no further trades to get big men. Given that personnel, here are the three options I see Pop having rotation-wise:

1. Extended minutes for a 3-man rotation of Duncan/McDyess/Blair.
2. More minutes for Ratliff and/or Mahinmi (assuming Mahinmi isn't dealt, and, let's be honest, it'll be Ratliff of the two.)
3. Increased small ball (and let's be honest with this one too- #3 will be part of the equation).

If this is how it turns out, will you be happy with the outcome?

[Chieflion]

Did he say it in the media (what he got suspended for today)?.......... No, this was a behind the scenes

I don't like Paxson as a GM, or Del Negro as a coach... so imo, if the Spurs base their opinion off those guys, that would be a mistake.
Look, you injured yourself and you are out for 7 weeks, do you earn the minutes back with your play or mouth off to your coach? Heck, the coach may be even trying to ease you back into the rotation, but you had to be an idiot and say some bad things to get yourself suspended.

[Dro210]

Look, I get it, it's not the best way to get things done, that's obvious.

And, he wasn't easing him back into shit...

Thomas came right off the injury, I mean RIGHT OFF IT, first games back, and had 3-4 super productive games with good minutes.... then they put him right back when he now.

Makes no sense.

[MaNu4Tres]

I like the idea of Salmons + Pargo. I agree that personality issues likely keep the Spurs from going after Thomas.

Here's a question for everyone. Let's assume for a second that the only trade the Spurs pull off is for Salmons and possibly Pargo, Bonner is involved in that trade, and the Spurs make no further trades to get big men. Given that personnel, here are the three options I see Pop having rotation-wise:

1. Extended minutes for a 3-man rotation of Duncan/McDyess/Blair.
2. More minutes for Ratliff and/or Mahinmi (assuming Mahinmi isn't dealt, and, let's be honest, it'll be Ratliff of the two.)
3. Increased small ball (and let's be honest with this one too- #3 will be part of the equation).

If this is how it turns out, will you be happy with the outcome?


I wouldn't personally. We don't have a need for Pargo, especially when Salmons comes in and starts at the 2. Hill is perfectly fine playing back up point guard 10-15 minutes a night.

I'm so tired of fans complain about him because his game is not like John Stockton or Jason Kidd's. Hill has been our best back up point guard than anybody the Spurs have had in the past 15 years. Give the guy a break. We don't need another point guard. Unless he's a 3rd string insurance policy incase of an injury on the inactive list.

I think this situation improves the Spurs more.


I'm starting to become a huge homer on the proposed Salmons/ Thomas deal.

It would help the team on both ends of the floor and make our team extremely versatile. It would be a significant upgrade and a change of such could just be what the Spurs need to compete with the top teams and give them a chance.


Parker 32-37 minutes
Salmons 25-30 minutes
Jefferson 28-33 minutes
Tim 33-38 minutes
McDyess 20-25 minutes

Manu 26-31 minutes
Hill 24-29 minutes
Blair 20-25 minutes
Thomas 18-23 minutes

Very solid 9 man rotation that consist of players that are anything but one dimensional. Our 48 minute attack would be efficient on both ends and would be more so of an "48 minutes of hell" for the opposition.

Bogans -DNP unless foul trouble or an injury
Ratliff- 10-15 minutes against LA or DNP's unless foul trouble or an injury
L. Hunter- DNP unless Hill injury or inactive list
Hairston- DNP unless foul trouble or injury or inactive list

What would the trade take now?

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yfs3dzr

A first round pick and or Splitter?

I think in order for Bulls to really consider it, the Spurs would have to throw in a 1st rounder and Splitter. Would you do it?

[timtonymanu]

I dont like Ty Thomas. people get frustrated with Ginobili's carelessness, imagine Thomas. they are gonna be asking for Thomas to be traded right away. like chieflion said ty thomas is immature. we dont need him.

IF we can get Joakim Noah, then hell yea but that aint happening cause hes their 2nd best player.

[Ice009]

Is Tyrus Thomas about winning???


SJax is one of my all time favorite players and people don't like his attitude, but he is about winning. Not sure you can say that about TT.


I dont like Ty Thomas. people get frustrated with Ginobili's carelessness, imagine Thomas. they are gonna be asking for Thomas to be traded right away. like chieflion said ty thomas is immature. we dont need him.

IF we can get Joakim Noah, then hell yea but that aint happening cause hes their 2nd best player.

I'd be looking at this too. If you guys are hating our execution now then it could be a lot worse with a low Bball IQ player like Tyrus Thomas.

He really is NOT a Pop kind of player, not even close, but we did try to trade for JR Smith at one time so you never know what Pop is thinking. I think it would come down to whether or not Pop likes his talent and skills enough to take a gamble.

[Kindergarten Cop]

I'm starting to become a huge homer on the proposed Salmons/ Thomas deal.

It would help the team on both ends of the floor and make our team extremely versatile. It would be a significant upgrade and a change of such could just be what the Spurs need to compete with the top teams and give them a chance.


Parker 32-37 minutes
Salmons 25-30 minutes
Jefferson 28-33 minutes
Tim 33-38 minutes
McDyess 20-25 minutes

Manu 26-31 minutes
Hill 24-29 minutes
Blair 20-25 minutes
Thomas 18-23 minutes

Very solid 9 man rotation that consist of players that are anything but one dimensional. Our 48 minute attack would be efficient on both ends and would be more so of an "48 minutes of hell" for the opposition.

Bogans -DNP unless foul trouble or an injury
Ratliff- 10-15 minutes against LA or DNP's unless foul trouble or an injury
L. Hunter- DNP unless Hill injury or inactive list
Hairston- DNP unless foul trouble or injury or inactive list

What would the trade take now?

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=yfs3dzr

A first round pick and or Splitter?

I think in order for Bulls to really consider it, the Spurs would have to throw in a 1st rounder and Splitter. Would you do it?

I had not seen this post. Good breakdown, but I'm still reluctant because of his alleged attitude issues.

[lurker23]

I wouldn't personally. We don't have a need for Pargo, especially when Salmons comes in and starts at the 2. Hill is perfectly fine playing back up point guard 10-15 minutes a night.

I'm so tired of fans complain about him because his game is not like John Stockton or Jason Kidd's. Hill has been our best back up point guard than anybody the Spurs have had in the past 15 years. Give the guy a break. We don't need another point guard. Unless he's a 3rd string insurance policy incase of an injury on the inactive list.

I think this situation improves the Spurs more.

I know you weren't necessarily talking about me, but I'm far from a Hill hater. The more minutes for him, the better. The two reasons I think Pargo might be a good fit:

-Bringing him in as a back-up PG allows Hill to focus more on being a SG, which seems to be his long-term position.

-We will need more three-point shooting if we trade away 2 or even 3 of Bonner/Finley/Mason.

[MaNu4Tres]

I know you weren't necessarily talking about me, but I'm far from a Hill hater. The more minutes for him, the better. The two reasons I think Pargo might be a good fit:

-Bringing him in as a back-up PG allows Hill to focus more on being a SG, which seems to be his long-term position.

-We will need more three-point shooting if we trade away 2 or even 3 of Bonner/Finley/Mason.

Hill is the same player whether he plays PG or SG. Just because he plays PG isn't going to make him play like Jason Kidd all of a sudden. And just because he plays SG, isn't going to make him play like Joe Johnson all of a sudden. He is who he is. His position won't alter his game. His game is his game. And his game is capable to play both. He will still get his P &R opportunities from both PG and SG and he will still get his corner three and spot up opportunities from both positions. There isn't really nothing to focus more on being an SG. Unless it's on the defensive side of the ball, which he has already been guarding opposing 2 and 3's for two years now.

I would much rather a scenario where Hill continues backing up Tony 10-15 minutes a game and then provides 15-20 minutes a game at the wing and us flopping Mason and Finley for an improvement at the 2/3 spot that could start and take the minutes from the Mason/Finley/Bogans combination as well as R.J when he's struggling.

If we trade Bonner out, Spurs need a big man in return that can play. If they got Salmons and Pargo for Bonner and Mason it would put a dent in our depth in the front court and wouldn't improve our team. imo

[exstatic]

I just think Spurs fans are too quick to jump on people's character (way more-so than the team itself).... I don't see Thomas as a bad guy. He's 100% right about his situation. I remember him in college, and I remember him against the C's last year. That guy LOVES to win.... and Chicago is a better team when he plays.

Here, if he couldn't find his way to significant minutes, which I think he could definitely do. He'd understand what he was brought in for, this is a fresh start, not the team that took him in the lottery where he expected to start and become a star.... He'd be playing on a better team, behind better players than he is now if he did sit. I like what Gibson has done, but he's not better than Thomas. Miller is a vet and he can spread the floor, but he's not close to Thomas. It's crazy to me that Chicago didn't embrace the Noah/Thomas frontcourt and run with it.... They could be the best defensive team in the league with the right coaching and discipline.

I don't consider TT a "bad guy", which is a different issue. He's just a monumentally immature kid and wouldn't fit here. This isn't a babysitting service. He also isn't going to magically grow up. A player like this needs a humbling experience, like not having his option picked up, or being cut or waived. Getting traded to a good team would only validate his skewed sense of his value.

It's GOT to be a pretty severe immaturity issue, though, if the Bulls are ready to move him already.

[Dro210]

I just think Paxson thinks he's too much of a hard ass, disciplinarian...

He wouldn't even let B-Wall wear his headband that he's worn his entire career.

I think a change of scenery for Thomas would be great for him. I'm not gonna say either of us are right or wrong, neither of us truly know the situation. We just bring different perspectives. :toast

[HarlemHeat37]

I just think Paxson thinks he's too much of a hard ass, disciplinarian...

He wouldn't even let B-Wall wear his headband that he's worn his entire career.

I think a change of scenery for Thomas would be great for him. I'm not gonna say either of us are right or wrong, neither of us truly know the situation. We just bring different perspectives. :toast

LOL seriously?..B-Wall? LOL..

[Dro210]

Hahaa, is Big Ben the correct nickname? or is it just Ben Wallace... maybe Benjamin? lol

[DPG21920]

Big Ben. Definitely not B-Wall :lol

[dbestpro]

The need for a 3rd point guard has more to do with the need for Hill to play extended minutes at SG than it does for Hill's play at PG. He is decent as a back up PG. He is bad ass as a starting SG.

[safetypickle]

the whole thomas fiasco in chi is just embarrassing. they drafted aldridge, and end up trading him for thomas. thomas plays great in the playoffs last year, breaks his arm early in the season, comes back and instantly contributes, putting up great numbers and helping spark a winning streak that saves vinny's job. flash foward to now, he is getting little playing time behind a rookie, and just got suspended for a game.
i personally think thomas is worth the chance, and has a chance to have a good career ahead of him in the correct situation, and the current situation in chi gives us a great chance to make a play at both him and salmons

[blkroadrunners]

:lol

LOL that Craig really threw me off man, NEVER heard him called that before in my life...:lol

Yea, his real name is Craig. He ain't Speedy no more :downspin:


Is he hurt? Can he play?

I don't think he's hurt, but he hasn't logged serious NBA minutes for the past few years though. Just something I threw out since he played for SA before.

[timvp]

Man, I really just don't see how Camby would help. Yeah, he blocks shots but the rest of his defense is such garbage. And there's no way Duncan and Camby or mobile enough to close out games. He'd basically be a half season rental who wouldn't necessarily be an upgrade from what the Spurs currently get next to Duncan.

A trade for Camby would change the Spurs defensively ... but wouldn't make them necessarily better on that end. I'd be fine trading for Camby if the deal is expirings and something like a second round pick. Giving up any real asset for Camby? Meh, it'd probably be a mistake. Camby isn't the difference between the current squad and a championship.


And that's not even mentioning his ugly midrange jumper AKA the automatic momentum killer.

[Ice009]

Well I've never pushed a Camby trade and I'm not real interested in one now.

Glad we didn't trade Hill for him.

[HarlemHeat37]

I haven't changed my feelings about Camby..

He's a very good shot blocker and help defender that can't defend 1 on 1 or defend the pick and roll, but he could still help this team IMO..I wouldn't give up anything of value for him, but I would still take him if there aren't any better options..

Personally, I don't want any more old guys on the team, but it all depends on the options..Camby is near the end of my list, but he's on the top 15 realistic list..

I wouldn't have any real feelings about getting him..

[timvp]

He's a very good shot blocker and help defender

He's a good help defender if it involves rotating to the basket. But he's an absolute horrible help defender when it comes to rotating out on the perimeter. Most of the time he won't even try to make the correct perimeter rotation ... and even when he does, it's basically two steps and a hand up. Only an unmotivated Shaq rivals Camby when it comes to being a worthless perimeter help defender.

[HarlemHeat37]

I agree with that, I meant help defender at the rim, which is why I lumped it with shot blocker..

While Denver did improve personnel-wise after he left too, they definitely got better defensively since they got rid of Camby's undisciplined defense..it's part of the reason I'm still bitter that he got the DPOY over Duncan..it kind of killed the whole DPOY award in general for me and showed that the voters don't even actually judge it, they just looked at stats(although D12 is definitely worthy)..

[Blackjack]

What was salt in the wound after Tim getting snubbed for DPOY in favor of Camby, was seeing KG getting rewarded for having basically the same type of season Tim had the year prior; Tim's year was actually better in terms of MVP and DPOY, imo.

[HarlemHeat37]

Definitely..I didn't have any problem at all with KG winning it, but Duncan did that for years and years without getting the award..I guess that's what you get for playing in Boston..

[Blackjack]

Tim's been arguably the best defensive player of his era and Bruce was arguably the best perimeter defender of his, and had they played in Boston, LA, New York or Chicago, they'd both have the appropriate hardware.

I'll always be a little bitter that those two didn't get at least one DPOY and that all those chickenshit bastards from the '03 USA Team bailed out on Tim and left him to man that ill-conceived team in '04 that came away with the Bronze.

If that team that played down in Puerto Rico had manned up and came to Athens with Tim, he would have had that Gold he should've had in '00; people seem to forget how dominant that team was against Argentina and others in '03 (they had Argentina down almost 30 at half, IIRC).

[Boss]

A Ty Thomas + Salmons deal is such a lateral move. The point of getting Thomas is maybe he guard Dirk but probably wont be that much better than what we have. Alright well Thomas is an athlete who can dunk, rj has had plenty of highlight real dunks this season hasn't improved us. Come playoff time I guarantee Mcdyess will be a better option.

Salmons is nice player who can score a little but I don't think r offense will improve by a whole lot and it certainly wont change how teams just work their way in the lane and get high percentage shot against r D.

[MaNu4Tres]

Man, I really just don't see how Camby would help. Yeah, he blocks shots but the rest of his defense is such garbage. And there's no way Duncan and Camby or mobile enough to close out games. He'd basically be a half season rental who wouldn't necessarily be an upgrade from what the Spurs currently get next to Duncan.

A trade for Camby would change the Spurs defensively ... but wouldn't make them necessarily better on that end. Camby isn't the difference between the current squad and a championship.


And that's not even mentioning his ugly midrange jumper AKA the automatic momentum killer.

This.

[Ice009]

If we can't get anyone else and Camby is available just before the trade deadline then I would take him for expiring contracts only.

If he was available right now for the same expiring contracts I would say no and look for a better deal.

[MaNu4Tres]

If we can't get anyone else and Camby is available just before the trade deadline then I would take him for expiring contracts only.

If he was available right now for the same expiring contracts I would say no and look for a better deal.

Clippers wouldn't accept that. Therefore a trade for Camby ( which would take a 1st round pick at least) wouldn't be wise.

[MaNu4Tres]

If we can't get anyone else and Camby is available just before the trade deadline then I would take him for expiring contracts only.

If he was available right now for the same expiring contracts I would say no and look for a better deal.

Clippers wouldn't accept that. Therefore a trade for Camby ( which would take a 1st round pick at least) wouldn't be wise. Especially with the progress McDyess has made the past 2 weeks.

[Bruno]

Man, I really just don't see how Camby would help. Yeah, he blocks shots but the rest of his defense is such garbage. And there's no way Duncan and Camby or mobile enough to close out games. He'd basically be a half season rental who wouldn't necessarily be an upgrade from what the Spurs currently get next to Duncan.


So who do you think Spurs should target at the deadline?

[MaNu4Tres]

So who do you think Spurs should target at the deadline?

I know you are asking timvp, but in my opinion there's not a big man good enough on both ends that can literally unseat McDyess' spot in the rotation as of right now (imo). In my opinion the only big that is available that can do this is Amare. Maybe Haywood but I don't think Haywood is good enough to come in and provide 30 significant minutes night in and night out, stealing minutes from Blair and McDyess.

Any other big man they target would more than likely see 15-20 minutes at most. Which isn't even half the game.

If Spurs target Camby, it would limit their flexibility to make a move for an upgrade in an all around wing because they would be getting rid of all of their expendable expiring contracts and it would take a 1st round pick at least for the Clippers to even look at the proposal.

As I stated already, I don't see Camby being a significant upgrade especially if he takes away minutes from the players in the front-court who have been just as or more productive in a per minute basis ( McDyess and Blair).

I would much rather the Spurs use their expendable trading assets for an upgrade in the Bogan/ Mason/Finley combination. Then make a small move for a big that can compete with Blair for the majority of the minutes in the front court off the bench.

I would much rather make a strong move for Salmons/Thomas than just Camby as I stated below.


I'm starting to become a huge homer on the proposed Salmons/ Thomas deal.

It would help the team on both ends of the floor and make our team extremely versatile. It would be a significant upgrade and a change of such could just be what the Spurs need to compete with the top teams and give them a chance.


Parker 32-37 minutes
Salmons 25-30 minutes
Jefferson 28-33 minutes
Tim 33-38 minutes
McDyess 20-25 minutes

Manu 26-31 minutes
Hill 24-29 minutes
Blair 20-25 minutes
Thomas 18-23 minutes

Very solid 9 man rotation that consist of players that are anything but one dimensional. Our 48 minute attack would be efficient on both ends and would be more so of an "48 minutes of hell" for the opposition.

Bogans -DNP unless foul trouble or an injury
Ratliff- 10-15 minutes against LA or DNP's unless foul trouble or an injury
L. Hunter- DNP unless Hill injury or inactive list
Hairston- DNP unless foul trouble or injury or inactive list

What would the trade take now?

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yfs3dzr

A first round pick and or Splitter?

I think in order for Bulls to really consider it, the Spurs would have to throw in a 1st rounder and Splitter. Would you do it?

I know you asked timvp, but I couldn't help myself. Not that my opinion matters. This is just my two cents.

[galvatron3000]

Spurs need to target a 3, I just don't care if they bring in another Big simply because Pop refuses to play any. Get a real 3 is my top choice and get rid of some of these guards we have on the bench, bring in a 3 and a backup pg.

[jermaine]

Seriously people, if the Spurs are not close to a deal why keep this thread going!?! There's a lot of trade threads so use them. 33pgs of BS

[TJastal]

I know you are asking timvp, but in my opinion there's not a big man good enough on both ends that can literally unseat McDyess' spot in the rotation as of right now (imo). In my opinion the only big that is available that can do this is Amare. Maybe Haywood but I don't think Haywood is good enough to come in and provide 30 significant minutes night in and night out, stealing minutes from Blair and McDyess.

Any other big man they target would more than likely see 15-20 minutes at most. Which isn't even half the game.

If Spurs target Camby, it would limit their flexibility to make a move for an upgrade in an all around wing because they would be getting rid of all of their expendable expiring contracts and it would take a 1st round pick at least for the Clippers to even look at the proposal.

As I stated already, I don't see Camby being a significant upgrade especially if he takes away minutes from the players in the front-court who have been just as or more productive in a per minute basis ( McDyess and Blair).

I would much rather the Spurs use their expendable trading assets for an upgrade in the Bogan/ Mason/Finley combination. Then make a small move for a big that can compete with Blair for the majority of the minutes in the front court off the bench.

I would much rather make a strong move for Salmons/Thomas than just Camby as I stated below.



I know you asked timvp, but I couldn't help myself. Not that my opinion matters. This is just my two cents.

+1

I would love to get Tyrus Thomas, he is the perfect complimentary piece to Duncan in his twilight years. He is a tall, physical, athletic PF/C that can really give the team a lift defensively. I would trade any of Bonner / Mason Jr / Mahinmi / Splitter / Blair / 1st rd picks to get this guy.

[mountainballer]

http://blogs.bulls.com/chicago_bulls_blog/2010/02/del-negro-minutes-are-up-to-players.html
On Saturday, the Bulls suspended Tyrus Thomas for one game for conduct detrimental to the team. Thomas will serve his one-game suspension when the Bulls host the Miami Heat on Saturday.

Del Negro did not elaborate on the circumstances surrounding suspension, but called the situation “unfortunate” and added, “It’s an internal matter and Gar [Forman] and myself will handle it.”

oh well.
two aspects:
-usually such things (didn't such things happen last season either?) increase the chance that the team wants to get rid of the player.
-TT would be a fit in several categories, but Spurs will hesitate to bring in such a head case.

[ElNono]

I agree with that, I meant help defender at the rim, which is why I lumped it with shot blocker..

While Denver did improve personnel-wise after he left too, they definitely got better defensively since they got rid of Camby's undisciplined defense..it's part of the reason I'm still bitter that he got the DPOY over Duncan..it kind of killed the whole DPOY award in general for me and showed that the voters don't even actually judge it, they just looked at stats(although D12 is definitely worthy)..

Ratliff could easily have been that help defender in the rim... obviously, not what this coaching staff is looking for, or he would have seen the floor more often. Like it's been said, we're going to battle with McDyess / Blair, and considering that Antonio has been playing relatively well lately, I have no problem with that. A perimeter defensive stopper to take Bogans/Mason minutes should be the target.

[mountainballer]

I like the idea of Salmons + Pargo. I agree that personality issues likely keep the Spurs from going after Thomas.

Here's a question for everyone. Let's assume for a second that the only trade the Spurs pull off is for Salmons and possibly Pargo, Bonner is involved in that trade, and the Spurs make no further trades to get big men. Given that personnel, here are the three options I see Pop having rotation-wise:

1. Extended minutes for a 3-man rotation of Duncan/McDyess/Blair.
2. More minutes for Ratliff and/or Mahinmi (assuming Mahinmi isn't dealt, and, let's be honest, it'll be Ratliff of the two.)
3. Increased small ball (and let's be honest with this one too- #3 will be part of the equation).

If this is how it turns out, will you be happy with the outcome?

yes, for sure. no matter how the rotations will turn out, if it's Bonner and Fin (+filler) or even Mason, Bonner, Fin for Salmons and Pargo, it will be an quality upgrade, even if no big man can be acquired via trade.
(btw. there will be a good chance the Spurs get one of the usual buy outs. Etan Thomas, Kwame Brown, Fab, Brezec, Skinner, Kurt Thomas, Battie, will likely be on the market. don't say that any is good enough)

and I mentioned it before: with Salmons playing the 3, the small ball line up with RJ playing 4, will be much better and bigger and IMO a very nice option in many situations.

[Bruno]

I know you asked timvp, but I couldn't help myself. Not that my opinion matters. This is just my two cents.

You're right, your opinion doesn't matter. ;)

I think that the need for a good defensive minded bigman is way bigger than the need for a wing. It's even more the case with Hill looking better and better and playing significant minutes at the SG spot.

I'm not fan of the approach of fixing the small problem and giving up fixing the big one. If Spurs can't improve their PF/C rotation they are quite screwed even if they can't get a competent SG/SF. A trade for Salmons+ Thomas would only make Spurs a contender if Thomas can play well.

[sananspursfan21]

anybody consider blatche of the wizards? idk, he just popped in my head. he's young, 6'11 and still mobile, pretty good d, big wingspan, and he plays for the team where just about everybody's for sale. the wiz may want to keep him though since he's got a bright future, just a thought...

[duncan228]

On The Block: Tyrus Thomas, Bulls (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=tsn-ontheblocktyrusthoma&prov=tsn&type=lgns)
SportingNews

With the Feb. 18 trading deadline approaching, Sporting News’ Sean Deveney assesses the latest player rumors. Today’s player on the spot: Bulls power forward Tyrus Thomas.

The facts: The anticipated shrinking of the salary cap threw off the Bulls’ plans to pursue a big-name free agent this summer. The Bulls’ expected payroll will be about $44 million next year, and even if the cap comes in high — say, $54 million — they would not have enough to pursue a top-tier free agent like Dwyane Wade or Chris Bosh. The Bulls could decline to extend a qualifying offer this summer to Thomas, who has lost playing time to rookie Taj Gibson. He was suspended for Saturday’s game against Miami for “conduct detrimental to the team.”

Bait needed: A big man with an expiring contract. The Bulls could also look for deals involving guards Kirk Hinrich and John Salmons, who have contracts extending past this season. The team, though, is unhappy with Thomas and would like to replace him with another forward.

Welcome mat: Thomas is young and athletic, and still attractive to several teams. He was linked to the Knicks in a rumor for Al Harrington early in the year, though that deal went nowhere. He also has been rumored to be going as part of a bigger package to the Kings — though that, too, seems to have come to nothing — and in a deal to Boston. Should Utah choose to trade power forward Carlos Boozer, the Bulls would almost certainly dangle Thomas.

Logic test: Thomas is only 23, and though the Bulls traded LaMarcus Aldridge for him on draft night in 2006, he has slipped in the team’s estimation. They’d be happy to deal him now.

So they say: “Minutes are up to players. You know what I mean? I am going to play the guys that give us the best chance to win, that play hard all the time, that get after it defensively and rebound. There’s accountability there. That doesn’t just go for Tyrus, that goes for all the players.” — Vinny Del Negro on Thomas’ reduced role

Bottom line: The Bulls are looking at the big picture, and the big picture extends way beyond this year — they need to get far under the salary cap and be in position to add a marquee player this summer. Trading Thomas would be the least painful way to get that done.

[Buddy Holly]

This trade works:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yzar827

[Muser]

This trade works:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yzar827

That would be better than sex.

[Pauleta14]

This trade works:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yzar827

That would mean go 3.4M$ deeper in the salary cap...

[Blackjack]

Taking on Jefferson's salary would completely defeat the Bulls' purpose.

On another note, after going back and reading the last couple of pages, I've come to a conclusion...

Blackjack <3 'Tres :D

[portnoy1]

Actually we can get Dalembert/Igudola for RJ/Mason/Bonner/Mahinmi and only spend $2million more. Dalembert is 28 and has 2 years on his contract/Igudola is 26 and has 4-5years on his contract. Try it on the trade machine, it works. Im only bringing that up since I heard that the sixers want Dalembert/Brand/Igudola out.

[Leetonidas]

Fuck John Salmons, the Spurs need DEFENSE. If the Spurs could somehow get Thomas and Hinrich, that would be fucking sweet. However, like I said, I think all the Spurs really need is a legit 7 footer to put next to Tim to patrol the paint, ala Brendan Haywood.

[portnoy1]

Fuck John Salmons, the Spurs need DEFENSE. If the Spurs could somehow get Thomas and Hinrich, that would be fucking sweet. However, like I said, I think all the Spurs really need is a legit 7 footer to put next to Tim to patrol the paint, ala Brendan Haywood.
Thomas is good enough to me. The problem with Tim is he cant guard quick PF's anymore. Thomas can, as well as block shots. Remember 2006-2007/2007-2008 Oberto was our starting Center and the paint was still shutdown. So once again its team defense not one guy. TT would be awesome next to Tim but Dick Jefferson and Bogans still have to force their man to the help and not just let them walk to the front of the rim.

[Blackjack]

Just because you can make salaries match, doesn't mean it works in real life.

The Sixers aren't actively trying to get rid of Iggy but if they can find a taker for Dalembert or Brand, they wouldn't mind moving him.

You'd still have to put together a better offer than RJ and filler, though, which is the only offer that makes real sense for the Spurs..

[jjktkk]

Fuck John Salmons, the Spurs need DEFENSE. If the Spurs could somehow get Thomas and Hinrich, that would be fucking sweet. However, like I said, I think all the Spurs really need is a legit 7 footer to put next to Tim to patrol the paint, ala Brendan Haywood.

Salmons is a good defender. I would love to be able to get Salmons and Thomas, without giving up too much.

[crc21209]

If the Spurs could get a package of Hinrich/Thomas or Salmons/Thomas for a combo of Bonner, Finley, Mason, etc. that would be awesome :tu

[objective]

Only trade worth doing would be to upgrade over Bogans/Finley getting minutes.

No big that's available will get the minutes to make a difference.

Haywood? He has his invisible games and Pop loves McDyess and whoever's left to play too much to work him in. He'll get spot minutes, like 15 minutes a game and after the Spurs are out of the playoffs people will wonder why they even got him.

Tyrus Thomas - he won't get minutes over Blair or McDyess, and he doesnt 'know the system'. He'll be doghoused within games.

Camby - This guy can't play well enough anymore to justify getting him if the price is more than expirings and a second or a first. If he's taking on the Lakers who does he guard? He'll give up the block to Bynum everytime. The only time the Clippers have faced both Bynum and Pau, they both had 20.

As pessimistic I've been about Splitter ever signing I don't think I'd burn his card for any of those guys.

And if it means the Spurs don't address their defensive woes, that's life. Better no trade than a desperation trade.

Maybe Kurt Thomas gets bought out and the Spurs bring him in. He's old enough that Pop won't hate him.

[DPG21920]

Trade deadline is rapidly approaching and nothing except for a Kings announcer has come out about the Spurs making a move.

[Blackjack]

Thomas had a couple of nice games when he first returned from a broken left arm on Dec. 26, but since then his playing time and his contributions have been sporadic. Team insiders have said coach Vinny Del Negro has made it a policy to hold players accountable, but how exactly that relates to Thomas isn't clear. As every Bulls fan knows, the fourth-year forward can make some poor decisions on the floor and he can dominate games with his defense and athleticism when plays well. I'm hearing there isn't much trade interest in Thomas right now, so the Bulls may end up just renouncing his rights this summer when he becomes a restricted free agent. (http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/3401)

[Leetonidas]

Trade deadline is rapidly approaching and nothing except for a Kings announcer has come out about the Spurs making a move.

And? You should know by now that if the Spurs do anything, you won't hear about it til like an hour before it happens.

[HarlemHeat37]

Ya, rumors are kind of irrelevant..we had Amare-Spurs rumors just last week..

[timvp]

So who do you think Spurs should target at the deadline?

That's a good question. None of the names right now really excite me. Camby? Meh. Haywood? Doubt he'd grasp the system in time. Salmons? I'd probably rather just give Hill the minutes. Ty Thomas? Pop would hate him about five minutes into his first practice.

I need to search around for some trade ideas I actually like . . .

[Blackjack]

Trade deadline is rapidly approaching and nothing except for a Kings announcer has come out about the Spurs making a move.

The Spurs are really in a stuff spot, imo.

As I've stated on more than one occasion, they're not winning as is and I don't see any of these proposed moves putting them over the top (barring a Gasol-like deal). But with Tim's play and the knowing that it may never be at this level again and Manu's uncertainty moving forward, it'd be hard to just stand pat and not make an effort to improve your team and give them as good a shot as possible.

The most appealing trade to me (of the ones that are relatively feasible), is Salmons-Thomas because it addresses two points of weakness and has the potential for a good upside; Salmons would easily upgrade the wing with his all-around play and Thomas is someone that could be a real difference maker on a given night (he brings another skill set and option to the table that they can ride when hot, depending on matchups)

It also won't kill them financially and it gives them an opportunity to see if they can use them next year, as well.

Standing pat just doesn't make sense to me under the circumstance; Salmons-Thomas does (if doable).

Edit - Thomas' next contract and option is in the balance and seeing as he's nothing more than a one, two-year rental on his current contract, his boneheaded-ness would probably be curtailed to a good degree (not to mention the respect he's displayed for Tim and the change of environment giving hope during a short stay).

[DPG21920]

We all know (and hopefully the Spurs FO thinks so as well) that they cannot win as is. The question is do you make a move like a Camby knowing it might not be the right fit and get you over the top, or do you decide to dump contracts and start to rebuild? Do you consider moving Manu or TP and blowing it up or trying to move one of them with the hope you can get a piece back that can help them win now?

[Obstructed_View]

That's a good question. None of the names right now really excite me. Camby? Meh. Haywood? Doubt he'd grasp the system in time. Salmons? I'd probably rather just give Hill the minutes. Ty Thomas? Pop would hate him about five minutes into his first practice.

I need to search around for some trade ideas I actually like . . .

I'm just waiting for someone to suggest a trade for a big that's better than the guy sitting on the bench who knows the system. I'd actually settle for one of the lesser names if there were some guarantee they wouldn't lose PF/C minutes to Finley or Jefferson down the stretch of the season.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't see the problem with taking a risk on a trade for a guy that won't hurt the Spurs from a long-term perspective..none of the trades we've discussed involve players that are on bad contracts, so the Spurs taking a risk wouldn't affect the future..

Giving up Splitter could affect the future though, so it depends on the deal..

[Blackjack]

I'm not a huge fan of Camby and his fit on the team, I just don't see how another aircraft carrier plays alongside Tim extended minutes, but I think you've got to be open to it if it doesn't cost you more than expirings and a first-rounder; acquiring Camby shouldn't be close to a no-brainer, first option, imo.

I actually think the dealing of Tony might be their only chance of keeping the window open moving forward. But it's hard to see it really working out in reality.

Tim obviously isn't going anywhere and there's just no feasible trade that nets the Spurs a gain in dealing Manu. So, theoretically, Parker's the only guy you could move for the requisite talent, at another position and maybe in the form of a couple of players, that allows the team to be better off than they were with Tony; the thinking being, Hill at the reins is serviceable and could be enough to get the job done next year, if he's got Tim, Manu and another star that could supplant Tim, Manu or both in the pecking order.

Sadly, I just think the window for this Big 3 is closed and unless they can pawn off RJ for a player that can truly supplant one or two of them in the pecking order, a Parker trade would be a necessary evil.

But, again, this is the theoretical; finding the right player or players to pull off such a move would be nearly impossible.

I'm not even sure the Spurs and the front office would have the stones to pull off such a move, even if they believed they might have found the right scenario (it'd have to be a complete no-brainer in my view).

[Leetonidas]

Hell no to Camby, dude is fucking washed up. Every game we've seen him play against us Sean constantly points out how he is always swiping down at the ball instead of trying to block the shot. His DPOY award is a joke.

[objective]

I don't know, maybe expirings for Jared Jeffries? Has this been discussed before? Because I'm too lazy to look.

Knicks clear capspace, and the Spurs get a long SF to use for defense who doesn't need the ball in his hands unlike RJ.

Yeah, I'm grasping at straws.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I'm not a huge fan of Camby and his fit on the team, I just don't see how another aircraft carrier plays alongside Tim extended minutes, but I think you've got to be open to it if it doesn't cost you more than expirings and a first-rounder; acquiring Camby shouldn't be close to a no-brainer, first option, imo.

Yep, not like the Spurs haven't won titles with guys like Robinson, Mohammed, and Nesterovic...



I actually think the dealing of Tony might be their only chance of keeping the window open moving forward. But it's hard to see it really working out in reality.

The obvious one to trade is Manu, as much as it pains me to say it. Find some marginal contender in the east that doesn't quite have enough to get it done, and see what you can pry away. He's got a cap friendly expiring deal and will likely be overpaid this summer.

[MaNu4Tres]

The Spurs are really in a stuff spot, imo.

As I've stated on more than one occasion, they're not winning as is and I don't see any of these proposed moves putting them over the top (barring a Gasol-like deal). But with Tim's play and the knowing that it may never be at this level again and Manu's uncertainty moving forward, it'd be hard to just stand pat and not make an effort to improve your team and give them as good a shot as possible.

The most appealing trade to me (of the ones that are relatively feasible), is Salmons-Thomas because it addresses two points of weakness and has the potential for a good upside; Salmons would easily upgrade the wing with his all-around play and Thomas is someone that could be a real difference maker on a given night (he brings another skill set and option to the table that they can ride when hot, depending on matchups)


It also won't kill them financially and it gives them an opportunity to see if they can use them next year, as well.

Standing pat just doesn't make sense to me under the circumstance; Salmons-Thomas does (if doable).

Edit - Thomas' next contract and option is in the balance and seeing as he's nothing more than a one, two-year rental on his current contract, his boneheaded-ness would probably be curtailed to a good degree (not to mention the respect he's displayed for Tim and the change of environment giving hope during a short stay).

This.

[Flux451]

Who is attainable that is a great outside shooter, not a smuck and plays great defense?

[5in10]

^ I like that idea hopefully they could throw in some kind of sweetener as well .For jeffries that is.

[Agloco]

Who is attainable that is a great outside shooter, not a smuck and plays great defense?

rywUS-ohqeE

[Blackjack]

Yep, not like the Spurs haven't won titles with guys like Robinson, Mohammed, and Nesterovic...

There's absolutely no comparison other than height to those situations. Tim could legitimately defend the four back then and he's was arguably the most dominant player in the league.

If they're to add another 7-footer, he had to be able to guard the 4 adequately and-or compliment Tim in a really advantageous way for the team offensively; The Rasho's and Nazr's of the world wouldn't be capable of playing the role they did in past years. Tim's aged and the league's changed.




The obvious one to trade is Manu, as much as it pains me to say it. Find some marginal contender in the east that doesn't quite have enough to get it done, and see what you can pry away. He's got a cap friendly expiring deal and will likely be overpaid this summer.

I've yet to see a trade that would make the Spurs better over the next two years that involved Manu (one that would even pass the sniff test, anyway).

[Slinkyman]

I don't know, maybe expirings for Jared Jeffries? Has this been discussed before? Because I'm too lazy to look.

Knicks clear capspace, and the Spurs get a long SF to use for defense who doesn't need the ball in his hands unlike RJ.

Yeah, I'm grasping at straws.

I don't know about Jeffries, he wasn't the one guarding LeBron last night when he dropped 35 in the first half was he? Regardless we'd be doing the knicks a huge favor in taking Jeffries contract and giving them cap space. They'd have to throw in a young player for me to take that deal.

[timvp]

I don't know, maybe expirings for Jared Jeffries? Has this been discussed before? Because I'm too lazy to look.

Knicks clear capspace, and the Spurs get a long SF to use for defense who doesn't need the ball in his hands unlike RJ.

Yeah, I'm grasping at straws.

Jeffries is a horrible offensive player and an extremely overrated defensive player. He practically does nothing better than Bogans yet has a player option next season for $7 million. No thanks.

[HarlemHeat37]

Jeffries is one of those "Chris Wilcox guys" that always looks to have potential to fans that don't watch him on a regular basis..those types of guys always have people that want them because they SHOULD be better than they actually are..

Living in NY and watching most Knicks games, I'll tell you first-hand that Jeffries is garbage..

[5in10]

Well I'd hope they would throw in gallo or Chandler

[TD 21]

Based on what I read (and what BlackJack quoted) in Hoopshype today, it appears Thomas' stock has fallen off so much that the Bulls would be happy to take whatever expiring contracts they could get for him just to get rid of him. Clearly, he's a knucklehead and a malcontent, but the Spurs are probably one of the few teams with a legitimate shot at getting through to this guy.

His numbers are solid (mainly the shot blocking and the mobility/length to defend mobile four's is what has me intrigued) and he's arguably a top five athlete (definitely top ten) in the league, so to be able to potentially acquire him for Bonner and Finley (with Pargo also likely coming back to balance the salaries) would be well worth it. The Spurs wouldn't lose anything of significance (Finley would probably get bought-out and re-sign) and they'd get essentially a free look at potentially a key player going forward. If they don't like what they see, they could attempt to package him in the off season or just renounce his rights outright. If this is doable, then I see it as a no-brainer.

Amongst the bigs, this would solve the rotation issue. If the Spurs pair Bonner with Blair, then they lack a center sized big/rim protector. If they pair Ratliff with Blair, then they lack shooting. But if they pair Thomas with Blair, while they'll still lack a center sized big, they'll have a rim protector and shooting (Thomas is an improving mid-range shooter).

[xtremesteven33]

Tyrus Thomas cant get minutes on a young squad with a inexperienced coach.

Imagine trying to get minutes with a veteran team and an anal coach. Besides, I dont see him getting consistent minutes behind Duncan/Mcdyess/Blair/Ratliff especially come playoff time

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm always of the belief that any "knucklehead" would fit with the Spurs..Thomas isn't a bad guy in the sense that he actually goes out and does stupid shit..he's just immature and needs guidance in the league..

If you give him Tim Duncan, Antonio McDyess and Theo Ratliff as mentors, I think you'll see some improvement in his game and mentality IMO..also, despite the current struggles, the Spurs are probably the most respect organization in the NBA..I doubt we'll see the same situation..

With that being said, I still don't think Pop would take him on, but I would love it nonetheless..

[timvp]

I like Thomas as a long-term project. But he wouldn't help this season.

[TD 21]

I'm always of the belief that any "knucklehead" would fit with the Spurs..Thomas isn't a bad guy in the sense that he actually goes out and does stupid shit..he's just immature and needs guidance in the league..

If you give him Tim Duncan, Antonio McDyess and Theo Ratliff as mentors, I think you'll see some improvement in his game and mentality IMO..also, despite the current struggles, the Spurs are probably the most respect organization in the NBA..I doubt we'll see the same situation..

With that being said, I still don't think Pop would take him on, but I would love it nonetheless..

Yeah, I'm not convinced the Spurs could reign in everybody automatically, but I do think they'd have at least as good a chance as anybody else. I'm not overly worried about his attitude/immaturity, moreso his lack of a high basketball IQ. But it's not like he'd come in and play 30 mpg. Most likely, we're talking about a 15-20 mpg fourth big. He and Blair would be the best backup big duo in the league, even if they are undersized.

Pop would be an idiot not to, considering what it reportedly would take to acquire him. Potentially Bonner is all (maybe a 2nd round pick get's thrown in). If it meant sacrificing a 1st round pick, or even a guy like Mason, I could understand having pause, but Bonner and Finley (who'd like be back in 30 days)? It's a no-brainer because Bonner wouldn't be in the rotation if Thomas were acquired anyway.


I like Thomas as a long-term project. But he wouldn't help this season.

I'm not so sure about that. He's long, active, quick and athletic enough to give the types of mobile four's that routinely burn the Spurs fits. He strikes me as the type of player who'd play with a chip on his shoulder after being traded too. With his physical tools, if he came with that type of mindset/motivation, I think he could be useful immediately.

[HarlemHeat37]

Based on your comments in this thread regarding a deal, I don't think anybody that could be realistically acquired would really satisfy you in a trade IMO, timvp..

[timvp]

Based on your comments in this thread regarding a deal, I don't think anybody that could be realistically acquired would really satisfy you in a trade IMO, timvp..

I've liked some of the smaller trades such as the Bell and Turiaf package. And I like Thomas if the Spurs are looking at next year. But a big trade that would help the team this year without sacrificing too many assets? I don't see one I like yet.

[MaNu4Tres]

I like Thomas as a long-term project. But he wouldn't help this season.

If Bonner were to go out in the trade proposed for Salmons and Thomas, I think Thomas would solidify the most energetic, strongest and most versatile bench the Spurs have ever had in Hill/Manu/Blair and Thomas. imo

Thomas would help a lot more than Ratliff/ Mahimni/ Bogans if that trade went through.imo

People want to really discredit his ability just because he had a fall out with his coach. That's typical though, those same fans were the fans that were against the Spurs going after Jackson in October, even though Jackson had already proved he could thrive in the Spurs system, and start for Popovich in 2003. Now he has lead the Bobcats on the path to their first playoff birth ever in franchise history. Go figure. Thomas and Jackson aren't the same players but it's the same situation with the majority of the ST members bitching and exploiting a simple disagreement he had with his coach behind closed doors.

[tav1]

If the Bulls would package Thomas and Salmons for expirings, it's something the Spurs would have to look at. Maybe it doesn't get them over the hump, but it gives them a fighting chance. The best suggestion I've seen on this board is Richard Jefferson and Ian Mahinmi for Corey Maggette, Anthony Randolph and Raja Bell. Would Golden State bite? Hmmm.

With each game Richard Jefferson shows that he's just not a good fit. It's impossible to show, but I don't think it's his skill set. I think it's a mental thing. His flashes of good play suggest that physically it could work. His inconsistency tells me that the dots just aren't connecting for him.

[HarlemHeat37]

Anthony Randolph is out for the season..also, while I love his game and would love him here, he would probably have the same problem as Thomas when it comes to Pop's doghouse..


I haven't looked at the contracts or anything, so I'm just thinking off the top of my head, I think a deal with Miami for Haslem/Wright would be a good trade for the Spurs IMO..again, I haven't looked at the contracts or numbers though, so I don't know if it's realistic..they aren't sexy names, but they would fit here IMO..

[CGD]

Anthony Randolph is out for the season..also, while I love his game and would love him here, he would probably have the same problem as Thomas when it comes to Pop's doghouse..


I haven't looked at the contracts or anything, so I'm just thinking off the top of my head, I think a deal with Miami for Haslem/Wright would be a good trade for the Spurs IMO..again, I haven't looked at the contracts or numbers though, so I don't know if it's realistic..they aren't sexy names, but they would fit here IMO..

Acquiring Haslem would be AWESOME. It would be the type of move that could help right away, but I highly doubt Miami would trade one of their crucial glue guys (plus Riles LOVES him). That said, he's in the last year of his deal which pays him about 7M this year.

[MaNu4Tres]

I haven't looked at the contracts or anything, so I'm just thinking off the top of my head, I think a deal with Miami for Haslem/Wright would be a good trade for the Spurs IMO..again, I haven't looked at the contracts or numbers though, so I don't know if it's realistic..they aren't sexy names, but they would fit here IMO..

Good idea for the Spurs yes, but Wright and Haslem are part of the Heat's rotation as of now. If Heat were not contending or a playoff team, I think they would be open to attaining assets for the future for such players. But that situation is not the case. I think the only way you could pry them away from the Heat is if you sent them Ginobili or a player that could improve their chances in the playoffs NOW. I don't think they would want Bonner and Mason over Wright and Haslem. I know I wouldn't.

[timvp]

If Bonner were to go out in the trade proposed for Salmons and Thomas, I think Thomas would solidify the most energetic, strongest and most versatile bench the Spurs have ever had in Hill/Manu/Blair and Thomas. imo

Thomas would help a lot more than Ratliff/ Mahimni/ Bogans if that trade went through.imo

People want to really discredit his ability just because he had a fall out with his coach. That's typical though, those same fans were the fans that were against the Spurs going after Jackson in October, even though Jackson had already proved he could thrive in the Spurs system, and start for Popovich in 2003. Now he has lead the Bobcats on the path to their first playoff birth ever in franchise history. Go figure. Thomas and Jackson aren't the same players but it's the same situation with the majority of the ST members bitching and exploiting a simple disagreement he had with his coach behind closed doors.

Personally, I don't care about Ty's issues with Del Negro. I think Del Negro is a joke of a coach.

I just don't see how he'd help this season. Outside of blocks and spurts of rebounding, he's a poor defensive player. He doesn't like to bang, isn't a very good post defense ... in fact, he has said he likes playing SF more than PF.

In the long run, I think the Spurs could mold him into a solid player. But as it stands, I think McDyess and Blair will be better players for at least the duration of this season.

[ElNono]

Some trades would be addition by subtraction: Like ejecting Finley, Mason and even Bonner or Bogans, which would ensure more playing time for Blair, Hill, Ratliff and whoever else we add.

Obviously, there's the chance this brings more small ball... so...

[HarlemHeat37]

Just throwing it out there..I just checked and they're both expiring, so that's tougher and would probably make it tough without giving actual players..

I don't think winning is a big deal though tbh..Miami is spiraling out of the playoffs right now..they've lost 5 in a row and have been horrible for the last few weeks..Wade looks like he isn't giving any effort at all..combine that with the Bucks getting hot, and there's a good chance Miami misses out on the playoffs either way..

[Chieflion]

Just throwing it out there..I just checked and they're both expiring, so that's tougher and would probably make it tough without giving actual players..

I don't think winning is a big deal though tbh..Miami is spiraling out of the playoffs right now..they've lost 5 in a row and have been horrible for the last few weeks..Wade looks like he isn't giving any effort at all..combine that with the Bucks getting hot, and there's a good chance Miami misses out on the playoffs either way..
Not really. Salmons might opt-in with his player option if he thinks he is not going to get a good deal. And the cap hold on Tyrus Thomas is ridiculous.

[MaNu4Tres]

Personally, I don't care about Ty's issues with Del Negro. I think Del Negro is a joke of a coach.

I just don't see how he'd help this season. Outside of blocks and spurts of rebounding, he's a poor defensive player. He doesn't like to bang, isn't a very good post defense ... in fact, he has said he likes playing SF more than PF.

In the long run, I think the Spurs could mold him into a solid player. But as it stands, I think McDyess and Blair will be better players for at least the duration of this season.

I don't think Thomas would unseat Blair and McDyess either. Actually I think the only big man out there that is that significantly better to really unseat the two is Amare. I think McDyess and Blair have been really productive and I don't see Haywood, Thomas, Turiaf, Camby putting a dent into McDyess and Blair's minutes if we acquired any of them. If they did put a dent in their minutes then I'd question if that would actually improve the team because Blair has been as productive as you can ask for a bench player and McDyess has been playing great the past month.

I like the trade mostly because of having Salmons playing 25-30 minutes over the Bogans/ Finley/Mason combination and him having some of Jefferson's minutes whenever he is in a funk. Thomas is just the cherry on top. Thomas may be a poor post up defender on the block, but he is a very active defender in his own right and has the ability to contest shots off the ball very effectively. I think Thomas would make us more versatile and better than having Bonner for the 4th big spot in the rotation.

[MaNu4Tres]

Not really. Salmons might opt-in with his player option if he thinks he is not going to get a good deal. And the cap hold on Tyrus Thomas is ridiculous.

He's talking about Haslem and Wright.

[Chieflion]

He's talking about Haslem and Wright.
Haslem is declining, just about anyone shits on him. Wright, I don't know. I think he still doesn't get it. These two guys suck. The few reasons why a team led by Wade can't even get a winning record.

[TJastal]

I like Thomas as a long-term project. But he wouldn't help this season.

:rolleyes

C'mon Timvp.. all we've been talking about for weeks is the spurs' lack of defense this year. Thomas could instantly provide relief to what is ailing this team.

And Thomas isn't break the bank expensive and is available RIGHT NOW. He could be had! As someone mentioned, he would have very strong role models and mentors (Dice/Duncan/Ratliff) to help his emotional maturity. Don't discount that.

Thomas could help this year but only IF Pop used him correctly. This spurs' team is literally dying for a young defensive mobile PF/C who can block/alter shots. Ratliff is too old to bring that kind of energy and impact and Mahinmi lacks the experience. Thomas is just right IMO.

I have been raving about the Blair / Bonner backup combo from an offensive standpoint but I'm getting a strong feeling both these guys are going to be less effective as we head into the later stages of the year and playoffs. Playoff rotations are going to be tightened, the defensive intensity amped up and these guys are going struggle. Teams are already learning how to exploit Blair's lack of footspeed and size and will always pick on Bonner's lack of defense. One or the other needs to go if an opportunity presents itself.

And an oppportunity has presented itself. Enter Tyrus Thomas, who you can instantly put into the rotation as a big to pair up with Duncan, or as the 1st big off the bench. He helps anchor that 2nd unit defensively (or allows McDyess to if TT starts alongside Duncan).

I would give up either Bonner or Blair, Splitter/picks/Mason .. anything short of the big 3 and Hill to get this guy in, I think he could have a phenomenal impact on the spurs' defense.

[MaNu4Tres]

:rolleyes

C'mon Timvp.. all we've been talking about for weeks is the spurs' lack of defense this year. Thomas could instantly provide relief to what is ailing this team.

And Thomas isn't break the bank expensive and is available RIGHT NOW. He could be had! As someone mentioned, he would have very strong role models and mentors (Dice/Duncan/Ratliff) to help his emotional maturity. Don't discount that.

Thomas could help this year but only IF Pop used him correctly. This spurs' team is literally dying for a young defensive mobile PF/C who can block/alter shots. Ratliff is too old to bring that kind of energy and impact and Mahinmi lacks the experience. Thomas is just right IMO.

I have been raving about the Blair / Bonner backup combo from an offensive standpoint but I'm getting a strong feeling both these guys are going to be less effective as we head into the later stages of the year and playoffs. Playoff rotations are going to be tightened, the defensive intensity amped up and these guys are going struggle. Teams are already learning how to exploit Blair's lack of footspeed and size and will always pick on Bonner's lack of defense. One or the other needs to go if an opportunity presents itself.

And an oppportunity has presented itself. Enter Tyrus Thomas, who you can instantly put into the rotation as a big to pair up with Duncan, or as the 1st big off the bench. He helps anchor that 2nd unit defensively (or allows McDyess to if TT starts alongside Duncan).

I would give up either Bonner or Blair, Splitter/picks/Mason .. anything short of the big 3 and Hill to get this guy in, I think he could have a phenomenal impact on the spurs' defense.

Everything bolded :tu

[Sean Cagney]

Bahahhaahhah really close to a deal, that announcer was dead wrong, they aren't doing shyt. What you see is what you get.

[HarlemHeat37]

This guy on a Bulls forum that has "inside sources" is saying that a deal is close for Tyrus Thomas + James Johnson for Brendan Haywood..this guy has been right on deals before, so should be interesting to see if it actually happens..

[Chillen]

This guy on a Bulls forum that has "inside sources" is saying that a deal is close for Tyrus Thomas + James Johnson for Brendan Haywood..this guy has been right on deals before, so should be interesting to see if it actually happens..

Wow, Noah and Haywood would free up the paint for road runner "derrick rose". It makes the Bulls taller, but Thomas is a high energy guy, still that would be a good deal for both teams.

[Chillen]

Bahahhaahhah really close to a deal, that announcer was dead wrong, they aren't doing shyt. What you see is what you get.

yeah, I come in here to see and it's about the Bulls doing a trade, thread title should be changed to "Spurs really aren't that close to a deal?.."

[mountainballer]

This guy on a Bulls forum that has "inside sources" is saying that a deal is close for Tyrus Thomas + James Johnson for Brendan Haywood..this guy has been right on deals before, so should be interesting to see if it actually happens..

wow, Wizards would get tons of potential in return. they would be crazy not to pull the trigger on such an offer, even if they would add another problematic character. (they would try even harder to ship Blatche in another deal)
Johnson was a disappointment till now, but he also doesn't get a lot of minutes behind Deng, TT, and Gibson. this kid still has enormous potential.
I can see why the Bulls do it short term. they are a borderline PO team right now and Haywood would increase their chances. but long term? they likely can't re sign Haywood anyhow, if they want to make a big play for Bosh, Wade or Lebron.
(Haywood could become a S&T asset though)

[HarlemHeat37]

If they do acquire him, it's always possible that they do have some interest in keeping him long-term..freeing up Hinrich and/or Salmons would help with the salaries for next year, like what has been rumored for the last few weeks..

It should be interesting to see..

[Chieflion]

If they do acquire him, I would assume that they have some interest in keeping him long-term..so they would probably be aggressively looking to move Hinrich and/or Salmons I would assume..wouldn't moving Hinrich save enough to potentially keep Haywood and still acquire a Bosh or Wade?..they'll probably be looking to move Salmons either way, like what has been rumored for a while now..

It should be interesting to see..
I would love Hinrich, but it would jam up the backcourt. He is another guy who would cling on to the other team's best perimeter offensive player and make it hell for him to score.

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm not interested in a Hinrich deal, I'm just saying they've been rumored to be moving him for a while now..

[Chieflion]

I'm not interested in a Hinrich deal, I'm just saying they've been rumored to be moving him for a while now..
Maybe the Spurs could help the bulls move Hinrich in a 3 team deal or something. We have seen weirder things near the trade deadline.

[mountainballer]

Hinrich is a decent player, but he would almost exactly duplicate what the Spurs get from Hill. for 9 million per year. (yes, he is more experienced and a better playmaker)
I can't see where the minutes for either Tony, Hill, Hinrich and Manu would come from. this could be solved, if you trade either Manu or Hill (plus several fillers) for Hinrich. Spurs wouldn't be a much better team after this trade, if at all.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't think they'll be able to move him anyways..he's a nice player that can do multiple things at a good level, but his price tag is too high for what he brings..they'll probably be stuck with him, which means they might feel obligated to move Salmons for a lesser offer than what he's worth IMO..

[holcs50]

I know people always get excited to talk trades, especially with an underperforming team, but the hype over thomas-who imho wouldn't change a damn thing this year-is way over the top. And are you kidding hinrich? How in the world would that help. Desperation it seems. Doubt any trade with the bulls goes down and i'd be upset if it did.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't think anybody in this thread wanted a Hinrich deal..I mentioned him as a way for the Bulls to get cap space to sign Haywood, and Chieflion mentioned the Spurs as a 3rd team that would help in a Hinrich trade..

[mountainballer]

I don't think anybody in this thread wanted a Hinrich deal..I mentioned him as a way for the Bulls to get cap space to sign Haywood, and Chieflion mentioned the Spurs as a 3rd team that would help in a Hinrich trade..

a 3-teams trade with Hinrich landing elsewhere and Salmons going to the Spurs might be a nice option. Spurs do have the tools (expiring contracts) to make this work.

edit: just thought about what teams were mentioned to be interested in Hinrich - Lakers and Celtics.....
no way we help the Lakers to cover one of their few needs. (unfortunately they would have the needed expiring contracts anyhow). Celtics? maybe. if they don't want to use Allen's contract for a Hinrich trade, they would need help.

[mountainballer]

one thought about TT:
some of you think that leadership and environment of the Spurs veterans will keep him in control.
but the reason for his suspension was a conflict with Vinny about playing time. TT plays 22 minutes per game. does anyone see this increase significantly with the Spurs? me neither.
(and if, it would be at the expense of Blair)
Thomas thinks he is a star and should be starting and play 35 MPG. and he is afraid that low minutes will cost him a lot of money when he becomes a FA this summer. (he has good reasons to fear this)
bottom line: the chance to get an unhappy player who only cares for his own stats is likely bigger than what could be expected from the "good influence" thing from the Spurs.

[TJastal]

one thought about TT:
some of you think that leadership and environment of the Spurs veterans will keep him in control.
but the reason for his suspension was a conflict with Vinny about playing time. TT plays 22 minutes per game. does anyone see this increase significantly with the Spurs? me neither.
(and if, it would be at the expense of Blair)
Thomas thinks he is a star and should be starting and play 35 MPG. and he is afraid that low minutes will cost him a lot of money when he becomes a FA this summer. (he has good reasons to fear this)
bottom line: the chance to get an unhappy player who only cares for his own stats is likely bigger than what could be expected from the "good influence" thing from the Spurs.

I don't agree with this. He's basically mad that a rookie came in and stole his job. (Taj Gibson). He'll get over it eventually. And as stated before, he could very well earn a starting spot alongside Duncan which would probably mean at least 25+ minutes of PT a night. And even if he's not a starter then I would be willing to bet he's not going to pout that McDyess (a 13 year veteran) is starting ahead of him as long as he has a solid role on the team.


"We all get frustrated," veteran guard Lindsey Hunter (FSY) said. "You can't act out your frustrations. At some point, you have to grow up and be a man about it." He hopes Thomas will grow from this. "Maybe this'll help him understand he needs to get beyond some things," Hunter said.

[mountainballer]

I don't agree with this. He's basically mad that a rookie came in and stole his job. (Taj Gibson). He'll get over it eventually. And as stated before, he could very well earn a starting spot alongside Duncan which would probably mean at least 25+ minutes of PT a night. And even if he's not a starter then I would be willing to bet he's not going to pout that McDyess (a 13 year veteran) is starting ahead of him as long as he has a solid role on the team.


hey, you think it's a one time affair? TT clashed with every coach he worked with in his short career. (Skiles called him lazy, Boylan suspended him for two games and now Vinny.)
he'll get over it, but wait for something different next week or next month. seems as if this guy is never happy. and I can't remember when any team requested a harder punishment for a teammate than the coach actually had decided, like the Bulls players did.
and remember, he is notorious for refusing to learn the playbook. you think this guy will be a starter for Pop???? wake up.

[5in10]

I thought the players requested Noah to sit out?

[I. Hustle]

Is this shit still going??!! You guys are making up your own rumors and shit.

[JR3]

Is this shit still going??!! You guys are making up your own rumors and shit.

Yeah, i keep checking this to see if there is any real update on a real rumor. But this thread has turned into something else. I'm going to go to sleep until we get closer to the deadline. :sleep

[Kuestmaster]

hey I'm new here, but I have been reading you for a while, almost all 2010.
I'm the biggest spur fan here in barcelona, spain (btw roger mason came here last summer, i was looking for him but didn't met).

would you do a trade between dick jefferson plus roger mason for ray allen? the celts are looking to trade him and sure he would hit more threes than jefferson and he have championship experience. his defense isn't in bowen's level but jefferson hasn't been a defensive stopper.

PD: be kind with my english please, I'm not a regular speaker, it's my third language! lol

[ace3g]

hey I'm new here, but I have been reading you for a while, almost all 2010.
I'm the biggest spur fan here in barcelona, spain (btw roger mason came here last summer, i was looking for him but didn't met).

would you do a trade between dick jefferson plus roger mason for ray allen? the celts are looking to trade him and sure he would hit more threes than jefferson and he have championship experience. his defense isn't in bowen's level but jefferson hasn't been a defensive stopper.

PD: be kind with my english please, I'm not a regular speaker, it's my third language! lol

Trading Jefferson and Mason for Allen would definitely help our 3 point shooting and maybe even scoring but nothing else really. As much as Jefferson's game doesn't fit the Spurs system, he gives the Spurs length and size at the SF spot.

[Muser]

Hell no to ray allen, that trade gives us an old 3 point shooter and we have nobody to play SF.

[scottspurs]

I think it's safe to say whatever that Kings announcer heard is not going to happen.

[5in10]

I sure do like his expiring contract though.

[duncan228]

On the Block: Ray Allen, Celtics (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=tsn-ontheblockrayallence&prov=tsn&type=lgns)
SportingNews

With the Feb. 18 trading deadline approaching, Sporting News’ Sean Deveney assesses the latest player rumors. Today’s player on the spot: Celtics guard Ray Allen.

The facts: The Celtics are struggling, with a record of just 9-12 after their 23-5 start, and Allen is the most expendable part the team has. He is 34 and averaging just 16.0 points (his lowest output since his rookie year), while his 3-point shooting has all but collapsed—he’s down to 33.8 percent, well below the 39.6 percent he’s shot over his career. The Celtics led the league in 3-point percentage last year but are just 15th this year.

Bait needed: The Celtics would like to boost their athleticism on the wings, and they want to fix the sagging perimeter shooting. Boston would also like to add to its depth in general, so a deal for Allen would have to bring back multiple useful parts.

Welcome mat: Because Allen has an expiring contract that comes in at $19.7 million, he has been linked to just about every team looking to clear out cap space and onerous contracts—most recently to the Kings for SG Kevin Martin. Before that, it was the Bulls, for G Kirk Hinrich and F Tyrus Thomas. And there was the fairly absurd notion that the Warriors would trade G Monta Ellis to the Celtics for Allen. Detroit, Phoenix, Philadelphia—name an NBA city and Allen has likely been rumored to be going there.

Logic test: Early this month, Celtics president Danny Ainge stated pretty emphatically that he was not trading Allen and that he believes this group of Celtics can win a championship. He told Allen personally that he wasn’t seeking to make a trade, and though things can change quickly, it’s unlikely that Ainge would do a 180-degree turn before the deadline.

So they say: "For me, I just keep playing basketball. It’s not my job to sit here and worry and let it stress me or bog me down. You know, it was great to sit there and talk to Danny because he and I have a great relationship." —Allen, quoted in the Boston Herald

Bottom line: The Celtics would have to consider dealing Allen only if they were acquiring a player who could be an immediate improvement in the short term and wouldn’t blow the payroll in the long term. But, the general feeling among GMs around the league is that Boston will not make any major trades.

[Blackjack]

Anthony Randolph is on the block (http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/02/anthony-randolph-is-on-the-block.html)

By Kurt Helin

Can I interest you in an athletic legend of Summer League, an incredibly talented but young and injured player? If so, Anthony Randolph can be yours if the price is right, just ask (http://www.ibabuzz.com/warriors/2010/02/06/larry-riley-explainsdefends-his-decision/) Golden State General Manager Larry Riley.


Will you have to trade one of your four highest-paid players?

We're not trading Monta Ellis, and we're not trading Stephen Curry. And if we have to trade some of the other players, we're going to look at it. It's very difficult to take what we have and trade for a star. So we have to trade for a good player and get some help for our team. There will be somebody who will probably trade that the fan base won't necessarily like. ... We do have to move a guy. We do have to move a guy to get where we want to go.


Reading between the lines (http://48minutes.net/2010/02/07/larry-riley-makes-it-clear-prepare-yourself-for-life-after-anthony-randolph/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+48minutes+%2848minutes.net%29), that likely means Randolph.

Trading for Randolph is a matter of delayed gratification -- he is out the rest of the season with a torn ankle ligaments. You are betting that he can bounce back from that.

If he does bounce back, you get a lot of potential. Randolph has a world of raw talent, he is athletic, can get his own shot and finish at the rim. His shooting percentage is a bit low but if you could get him to stop taking those 16- to 23-foot jumpers (http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Anthony%20Randolph) he can't hit (just 33% this season) things would be a lot better. He's had other growing pains in the league (like learning to defend), but he is also the second youngest player in the league and only in his second season. He has room to grow out of those pains.

Because of that, Riley is going to anger a lot of Bay Area fans if and when he trades Randolph. But he has already taken plenty of heat for cutting Speedy Claxton, and his $5.2 million expiring contract and trade bait, rather than trying to get something for him. Riley doesn't seem to mind the heat.

Trading for an injured player goes against every general manager's instinct. But if you can wait, what young building team could not use a 6' 10" forward that can run the floor and score inside?

[Blackjack]

mountainballer? tav1?

Are you ready and willing to pack RJ's bags?

[Kuestmaster]

don't forget that ray allen and manu will be FA this summer, that would leave a lot of space to go for bosh.

and I'm sure that allen's IQ is higher than jefferson. sure that we would loose some athletiscm, but we don't need a big small forward in the spurs sistem. we have had three rings with bowen and he was more or less ray allen and manu's height.

with parker running the point, hill at SG and allen at SF, with manu, finley and bogans (or hairston or a FA) from the bench I think we could improve.

[timvp]

I'd give up a lot for Anthony Randolph. If a team can tame his game just a little bit, he has superstar potential.

[Blackjack]

How would you feel about sending out RJ for Maggette and Randolph (possibly including Mason, Bell and filler)?

[Muser]

I'd give up a lot for Anthony Randolph. If a team can tame his game just a little bit, he has superstar potential.

:tu

[Muser]

How would you feel about sending out RJ for Maggette and Randolph (possibly including Mason, Bell and filler)?


I do that as soon as it's on the table.

[timvp]

How would you feel about sending out RJ for Maggette and Randolph (possibly including Mason, Bell and filler)?

Maggette's contract would suck but if Holt signs off on it, you pretty much have to do it.

[Blackjack]

mountainballer through this out a while back:

RJ+Fin+Ian+Haislip+ (1st rounder 2011 if needed)
for
Maggette+Randolph+Bell

Obviously some of the components can and need to change, but you get the gist (not to be confused with James).

[Blackjack]

Yeah, it's been my favorite suggested trade but Maggette's play left you to wonder if Randolph could still be had as a sweetener.

I'm not sure there's a more feasible and better trade for the franchise, both short and long-term.

[ace3g]

In world of trade talk, chatter rarely lives up to hype

I hate trade columns.

Weeks of speculation that almost never pan out and aren't anchored by any kind of reality. If it's not an agent looking to place his client(s) somewhere else, it's a GM, on orders of his silent owner, looking to create a market for a player he wants to to ditch. Even the "truth" of something, like Team A is shopping a player, is normally calculated by Team A for its own self-interest. Plus, almost everyone is lying this time of year; the teams that are really looking to do something deny it even when they're caught red-handed.

Hate them.

But you love them, and I get that. Nothing beats bar talk (How good would the Cavs be with Jamison?), and it's fun when it's not your job to check out every rancid, ridiculous rumor. But we are within two weeks of the Feb. 18 trade deadline, so I guess spending a few minutes dipping into the water isn't going to kill me.

So ... by this time next week, it's almost a certainty that Caron Butler will be gone from Washington, and highly likely that Tyrus Thomas will no longer be a Bull. By the 18th, Indiana's Troy Murphy and Philly's Andre Iguodala are certain to have new addresses as well, though those teams may well go right up until the 3 p.m. deadline to max out their suitors' offers.

Amar'e Stoudemire? For all the talk that a trade is a done deal, two people who should know swore to me Sunday that it's much more likely the Suns hold onto STAT than make a trade.

Stoudemire's declaration to Yahoo! Sports that he might well not opt out of his deal after this season and play the final season at $17.68 million next year, though, would seem to make him more likely to be traded than not; teams will be much more willing to take on one year of salary before a new Collective Bargaining Agreement is worked out than try to sign a free agent like Stoudemire not knowing what the new rules would be on new contracts.

Would Philly bite the bullet anyway, and make a deal, sending Iguodala out West? Not without some certainty that Stoudemire wouldn't opt out after next season, and the Sixers still believe he will, meaning they'd get probably wind up with nothing, as they certainly aren't going to be in a position to give him the $60 million for three years that he's been seeking. That's a non-starter for Philly.

Would Chicago mind if Stoudemire opted out? Probably not. He's not their target next summer; I remain convinced Dwyane Wade and/or Chris Bosh are. So if the Bulls deal for Stoudemire and he walks, that's just $17 million more in cap room for them.

On the other hand, the Bulls, I'm told, are terrified that if they don't move Thomas by the 18th, he'll happily accept the one-year, $6.2 million qualifying offer Chicago would have to tender him this summer as a restricted free agent -- a complete non-starter for a team that is determined to save every penny toward next summer. And if they don't tender him and let him walk as an unrestricted free agent -- what Milwaukee did last summer with Charlie Villanueva, for example -- they will have let Ben Gordon and Thomas scoot town in consecutive seasons while getting nothing in return, and that would be a hard sell to Bulls fans.

Sending Thomas to Houston as part of a package for Tracy McGrady's expiring contract would seem to be the way to go. The problem, though, from a source in the middle of all this, is that Houston is not interested in Kirk Hinrich, whose contract would be central toward making a deal with the Rockets work. (Chicago still has expiring pieces like Brad Miller that could make a deal possible, however.)

The Wizards' desire to move Butler has only increased in recent days, since they found out they will indeed get some cap relief from the NBA this season after losing Gilbert Arenas and Javaris Crittenton to suspension for the rest of the season. Washington's cap number will be reduced almost $4 million, according to sources -- pro-rated amounts of the remainder of Arenas's $16.1 million and Crittenton's $1.47 million salaries -- taking its cap number to a little more than $74 million. The cap threshhold is $69.9 million, meaning Washington could avoid paying tax if it can pare another $4 to $5 million in salaries off its books.

That means Butler, though I suspect the Wizards will ask inquiring teams to remove Mike James and/or DeShawn Stevenson from their payroll as well.

Butler winding up somewhere in Texas is most likely, with Washington probably deciding between Dallas' and Houston's competing offers before next week's All-Star Game. The Wizards are determined to get a young player back, though, and the Mavericks' only non-geezer is rookie guard Rod Beaubois -- while Houston has a young guard like Kyle Lowry and an expiring big man contract in forward Luis Scola to pair with McGrady's $22 million expiring deal.

(Don't discount Portland, either. While much has been made of the Blazers' pursuit of Washington center Brendan Haywood, the Blazers have just as much, if not more, interest in Butler, and are willing to put $3 milliion in cash toward a deal -- which certainly interests the Wizards. But Portland's refusal to put any of its young players other than Martell Webster in any potential deal puts it on the outside looking in. As has been reported, the Wizards want either Nicholas Batum -- no chance -- or Rudy Fernandez -- not likely, as he is a favorite of many inside the Blazers' braintrust. The Lakers would also love to repatriate Butler with Kobe Bryant, who would love to have him. But L.A. doesn't have the expiring contract/young player assets necessary to get seriously involved.)

As for Jamison and Haywood, Washington would rather hold onto both, though there's always a deal out there that can change someone's mind. Cleveland, as everyone knows by now, wants Jamison, but the Cavs still don't want to part with second-year forward J.J. Hickson, whom the Wizards looked long and hard at before taking JaVale McGee in the 2008 Draft. The Cavs and Rockets are also in the market for extra picks for 2009, and are willing to pay for them.

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/david_aldridge/02/08/morning.tip/

[ace3g]

Jamison headed to Miami. . .for Super Bowl

But should Wizards follow Memphis' lead and move him to Cleveland?

Antawn Jamison wasn't necessarily upset that the Wizards were unable to get out of Orlando this weekend. Sure, he would've loved to make it back to Washington and play the Atlanta Hawks at Verizon Center last night. But since the game was postponed, Jamison had a much easier commute to Miami, where he plans on watching the New Orleans Saints and Indianapolis Colts in the Super Bowl.

Jamison caught a short flight to Miami after Sunday's practice in Orlando. He'll join the team on Monday.

This will be the first Super Bowl that Jamison has ever attended, but the Louisiana native said it has nothing to do with the Saints participating. He's not even a Saints fan. He said he's a fan of individual players and thinks Peyton Manning is the best quarterback in the game.

Jamison has no rooting interest in the game, but he purchased a suite at Sun Life Stadium so that he could have a good time with several of his friends. He said his wife, Ione, granted him some time with his boys to help get away; with this difficult season with the Wizards providing few opportunities for fun. Jamison made a similar trip to watch North Carolina win the national championship in Detroit last season.

I know there has been a lot of talk lately about the Wizards being reluctant to move Jamison to Cleveland given the bad blood between the two franchises. The apprehension is believed to be rooted in three hotly contested playoff series, and Larry Hughes's departure in the summer of 2005. The prevailing sentiment from people around the league is that President Ernie Grunfeld has no desire to help Danny Ferry and the Cavaliers win a championship by giving them Jamison.

But I had a recent conversation with an Eastern Conference executive who made a very interesting point. The executive said the Wizards should only be concerned about interest of the organization - not what Jamison could do for the Cavaliers - and used Memphis as an example.

Around this time two years ago, the Grizzlies traded Pau Gasol to the Lakers for Kwame Brown, Marc Gasol, Javaris Crittenton and two first round picks. The move was roundly panned around the league, with Grizzlies General Manager Chris Wallace credited with "gift-wrapping" a title for the Lakers.

San Antonio Coach Gregg Popovich was one of the more outspoken critics of the trade, calling it "beyond comprehension" and suggested that the NBA establish a trade committee to oversee all lopsided deals. But recently, even Popovich had to backtrack, with the Grizzlies emerging as one of the surprise teams in the Western Conference and Gasol developing into a quality NBA center.

Although Pau Gasol reached the NBA Finals and won a championship the next season with the Lakers, it wasn't going to happen for him in Memphis. Jamison's dreams of winning a championship are not going to be met in Washington. Holding on to him doesn't really help either side.

Of course, Cleveland also has to be wiling to give the Wizards a deal as sweet as the one Memphis received for Pau Gasol. Some reports have the Cavaliers offering Zydrunas Ilgauskas's expiring deal, J.J. HIckson and a first-round pick, but I heard from a league source that the Wizards have not been offered that much. The Wizards, according to the source, have made their demands known to Cleveland, which so far has been unwilling to budge.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/2010/02/jamison-headed-to-miami-for-su.html

[Sean Cagney]

LOL close to a deal, we see how close they were to that deal now. I doubt they make any trade, if they do it's just to dumb some salary and get a bench player in return who won't play.

[Blackjack]

Whether they make a trade or not, it's nice to have all the speculation in one thread and not one for each trade someone comes up with.:toast

[Bruno]

Randolph is a "win later" player and Spurs are in "win now" mode. It doesn't fit well.

[ace3g]

and we thought the Spurs were close to deal because the Kings announcer is part of the Kings Front office, and would know what other teams were doing. Plus the announcer knew a lot of details about the trade "back up pg and forward", you never hear an announcer say something like without it already being in the media, it caught all of us off guard at the beginning of the Spurs game and thought they were close to a deal

[MaNu4Tres]

Randolph is a "win later" player and Spurs are in "win now" mode. It doesn't fit well.



Yeah, Randolph would be behind Bonner in Popovich's rotation for the remainder of the year as sad as that is.

[Bruno]

Yeah, Randolph would be behind Bonner in Popovich's rotation as sad as that is.

Given that Randolph is out for the year, I don't see how he could be ahead of Bonner in the rotation.

[timvp]

Hypothetically, if it comes down to Randolph or Ty Thomas for some reason, I go with Randolph. Thomas wouldn't help much this season anyways. I know it's an unsexy thing to say but Bonner is a better defender right now than Thomas. Thomas just doesn't get "it" yet.

[DPG21920]

Randolph is injured and likely out for the year. Nice piece for the future, but what about now?

[yavozerb]

Given that Randolph is out for the year, I don't see how he could be ahead of Bonner in the rotation.

Why is out for the year? thought he just had an ankle sprain

[MaNu4Tres]

Given that Randolph is out for the year, I don't see how he could be ahead of Bonner in the rotation.

I didn't know he was out for the year. I thought it was another month or so. Then again I haven't kept up with him the past couple of weeks.

[yavozerb]

Warriors PF Anthony Randolph will have his injured left ankle in a protective walking boot for an additional 30 days, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. This setback will likely result in Randolph sitting out the rest of the season. He tore two ligaments and suffered an avulsion fracture in his ankle Jan. 8 against Sacramento

from cbssports.com

[Bruno]

Hypothetically, if it comes down to Randolph or Ty Thomas for some reason, I go with Randolph. Thomas wouldn't help much this season anyways. I know it's an unsexy thing to say but Bonner is a better defender right now than Thomas. Thomas just doesn't get "it" yet.

Well, I doubt it will come down to that. Randolph's trade value is just a gazillion times higher than Tyrus' ones.

[MaNu4Tres]

Hypothetically, if it comes down to Randolph or Ty Thomas for some reason, I go with Randolph. Thomas wouldn't help much this season anyways. I know it's an unsexy thing to say but Bonner is a better defender right now than Thomas. Thomas just doesn't get "it" yet.

I don't think any big man out there would provide significant help via trade, especially with the play of McDyess of late and how productive Blair has been off the bench. I wouldn't want any big man out there to take away their minutes at the 2 and 3 spot in the front court rotation.

The only big I'd want to take their minutes is Amare. And that's not happening. You can question whether or not Camby or Haywood would be capable of taking the starting gig over, but how much better would that make us if that took minutes away from McDyess and Blair? Who have been very productive.

[Blackjack]

If the team is going nowhere as is (which looks to be the case) and the ability to find the right parts, while having the requisite time to incorporate them isn't likely, at what point do you just make a good trade; RJ doesn't fit and Maggette couldn't do much worse.

Depending on the configuration of the trade, the Spurs could better their team this year (with Maggette and possibly Bell) and acquire a player that has the potential to be a cornerstone of a franchise down the line; Randolph isn't the type of player readily made available to a team like the Spurs.

If Holt can stomach the little over $20M left on his contract after '11, I thinks it's pretty much a no-brainer.

[DPG21920]

This team is in an incredibly tough spot. A few weeks ago, I thought the team just needed a minor tweak (ship Bonner out for a solid more defensive oriented big), but now I am not sure. I cannot peg how far/close this team is to contention.

If they are not close, what does that mean with regards to trading opportunities. I cannot believe that the FO actually believes they have very little realistic shot as is. I think they believe they have what it takes. I don't agree.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

But Portland's refusal to put any of its young players other than Martell Webster in any potential deal puts it on the outside looking in.

Good to see Pritchard is being a tight bastard as always...

[DPG21920]

Although Blair has been productive, he is not championship productive. I would definitely love to see Camby/Haywood/any other defensive big get Blairs minutes. Blair should be the third big.

Spurs need another play maker as well. Not the most glaring need, but would come in handy.

[pad300]

What do people think of the following?
Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy
for
Jefferson, Finley, Bonner, Mahinmi, 2010 1st

SAS gets to improve their bigs tremendously, Murphy >>> Bonner & Mahinmi. In salary terms, they become committed to $62 million for 8 players next year (vs 55 million currently for 7). Is Dunleavy a downgrade from Jefferson & Finley? The salaries are about $120,000 in SAS's favor this season.

[MaNu4Tres]

This team is in an incredibly tough spot. A few weeks ago, I thought the team just needed a minor tweak (ship Bonner out for a solid more defensive oriented big), but now I am not sure. I cannot peg how far/close this team is to contention.



I think the Spurs most realistic move they can make that would improve them the most is making an improvement at the wing a priority and trying to get a 4th big in the deal as the sweetener. IE Salmons/Thomas......Bell/Turiaf.

You plug in Salmons (all around more consistent wing) over the Bogans/Mason/ Finley combination. It improves your defense and offense instantly in this scenario. Not to mention will give us valuable insurance when Jefferson is in a funk ( which happens at least every other game).

[MaNu4Tres]

Although Blair has been productive, he is not championship productive. I would definitely love to see Camby/Haywood/any other defensive big get Blairs minutes. Blair should be the third big.

Spurs need another play maker as well. Not the most glaring need, but would come in handy.

And where are your minutes for McDyess? Who in my opinion has been playing great lately.

What exactly is championship productive? The guy has been consistent as you can ask all year, whether they play great teams or poor teams.

If anyone hasn't been championship productive or productive against great teams( since that's the only way you can really judge "championship productivity) it's been all of our wings from Manu to Finley. Hill has been the most consistent of the bunch in this scenario. Everyone else there's a huge drop off.

[doobs]

If the team is going nowhere as is (which looks to be the case) and the ability to find the right parts, while having the requisite time to incorporate them isn't likely, at what point do you just make a good trade; RJ doesn't fit and Maggette couldn't do much worse.

Depending on the configuration of the trade, the Spurs could better their team this year (with Maggette and possibly Bell) and acquire a player that has the potential to be a cornerstone of a franchise down the line; Randolph isn't the type of player readily made available to a team like the Spurs.

If Holt can stomach the little over $20M left on his contract after '11, I thinks it's pretty much a no-brainer.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yfzednl

?

[yavozerb]

Although Blair has been productive, he is not championship productive. I would definitely love to see Camby/Haywood/any other defensive big get Blairs minutes. Blair should be the third big.

Spurs need another play maker as well. Not the most glaring need, but would come in handy.

I agree with that assessment. Right now he is simply an energy guy who should not be playing more than 15 minutes a night. Pop thinks this as well and that is why bonner is ahead of him in the rotation.

[MaNu4Tres]

I agree with that assessment. Right now he is simply an energy guy who should not be playing more than 15 minutes a night. Pop thinks this as well and that is why bonner is ahead of him in the rotation.

Blair's minutes have been increasing every month this year as has his production. From 13 minutes in Oct/Nov. to 22 minutes a game he's averaging now.

Bonner's have decreased. ( You can blame the injury but even since his return his minutes have decreased and Blair's have increased.)

[DPG21920]

And where are your minutes for McDyess? Who in my opinion has been playing great lately.

What exactly is championship productive? The guy has been consistent as you can ask all year, whether they play great teams or poor teams.

If anyone hasn't been championship productive or productive against great teams( since that's the only way you can really judge "championship productivity) it's been all of our wings from Manu to Finley. Hill has been the most consistent of the bunch in this scenario. Everyone else there's a huge drop off.

What do you mean? McDyess could go back to his bench role that he likes. Or you can bring the new big off of the bench.

Championship productive means you don't have holes in your game to a large degree. Blair has very little offense, cannot space the floor and is a sketchy defender in all situations. Although he has made great strides on that end, he is no where near what this team needs in order to sure up the defensive problems. I am not knocking Blair and I love what he does well, and he has been consistent from an energy standpoint. But the rest of his game has not been as consistent as you make it out to be. His rebounding has been excellent, but he also gets over excited, rushed and can have trouble finishing due to his size. His FT's are problematic as well.

I agree with everyone else, but Manu/TP have a shot to be championship productive if they are healthy, Blair does not imo. Not yet. He can still play a nice 3rd big role off the bench for a championship team though.

[yavozerb]

Blair's minutes have been increasing every month this year as has his production. From 13 minutes in Oct/Nov. to 22 minutes a game he's averaging now.

Bonner's have decreased. ( You can blame the injury but even since his return his minutes have decreased and Blair's have increased.)

Once bonners shot starts falling (and it will) that trend will change.

[Blackjack]

If Blair's allowed to play a Powe-like role, he's Championship-caliber.

[MaNu4Tres]

What do you mean? McDyess could go back to his bench role that he likes. Or you can bring the new big off of the bench.


How significant would that upgrade be if the addition were to see 15-20 minutes off the bench or 20-25 minutes starting? If he were to see 25 minutes a game then your taking minutes from McDyess and Blair, who have been playing really well as of late.




Blair has very little offense, cannot space the floor and is a sketchy defender in all situations. Although he has made great strides on that end, he is no where near what this team needs in order to sure up the defensive problems.

Blair has little offense? He is outstanding at catching any passes in traffic and finding ways to score around the basket when he's contested to a high degree. I haven't seen one big man outside of Duncan that can do this with such a high efficiency in a very long time. This is vital due to the amount of pick and rolls Tony and Manu go through a game.

Haywood and Camby need the ball to score more so than McDyess and Blair. If you think Spurs' offense would be better off. I think your crazy. McDyess and Blair are very very good compliments to Tony/ Manu and Tim creating.


I do agree with you though on the defensive side of the ball, but I think Blair's rebounding negates that to a degree. I also think Camby is just as a liability on the defensive end at this stage of his career. At least the games I've seen. Maybe a chance to contend for a championship would change that though.

Haywood would give us more versatility on the defense end as a team. Giving us a defender that helps us match up with the Lakers. So I agree with that. I just don't think it would make our team significantly better because I don't think he would see enough time on the floor. Much like Kurt Thomas' situation. And if he did see enough time to make a significant difference then you take minutes from McDyess and Blair, who have been playing great lately. I question if reducing those two minutes would improve our team at the expense of a Haywood or any big that's realistically able to attain via trade.


He can still play a nice 3rd big role off the bench for a championship team though.

Blair is the 3rd big right now....

[DPG21920]

I am talking about behind Duncan. You have Dice/Bonner/Blair. I think this team would benefit from Defensive Big/Dice/Blair more so than the aforementioned combo.

I agree has great hands and can finish, but he still has trouble finishing from time to time. Also, just because you are very good in one aspect does not mean you are not limited. He really has no range yet, he can't space the floor and his ft's are poor. That is limited.

He is a solid passer and his moves are crafty, but he is still a relatively one-trick pony. Once again, this is in no way knocking him, but just my assessment of his game versus what the Spurs need to win a title.

[Bruno]

If Blair plays 20mpg or more, Spurs aren't a true contender.

[MaNu4Tres]

I am talking about behind Duncan. You have Dice/Bonner/Blair. I think this team would benefit from Defensive Big/Dice/Blair more so than the aforementioned combo.

Well no shit lol that's an improvement. I'm assuming your talking about Haywood, because that's the only big that I'd give up some assets for ( 1st rounder or Splitter) that could start over McDyess and Blair. Even though I don't think he'd see the minutes he's getting in Washington to put up the production he is right now.

I would love to make a move that would help both situations.

But I think the Spurs making a move for an all around wing would have a bigger impact.

As of now outside of Manu and Hill, we don't have a wing that has even average lateral quickness or adequate foot speed to be able to stay in front of their man and negate penetration from the perimeter. ( Or have the foot speed and lateral quickness to be able to force the person with the ball to certain vulnerable spots on the floor). (Jefferson/Finley/Bogans/Mason) have terrible foot speed and lateral quickness, which I think has been a big problem on the defensive side of the ball.

You bring in a guy like Salmons who has better lateral quickness and foot speed and replace him over Mason/Bogans/ Finley that instantly improves our defense for the 25-30 minutes a game that's available to the trio.

On the offensive side of things, ( Jefferson/Finley/Bogans/ Mason) are terrible from the triple threat position whenever Tony/Manu/Tim/Hill create.
Whenever Tony or Manu create from the pick and roll the clock is winding down. Against good teams Tony and Manu don't get to the spots as consistent as they are accustomed to against poor teams.

As they create from the pick and roll and kick out to Jefferson/Bogans/Mason/Finley, the good teams are aware of the proper rotations and react quicker, close out quicker, recover quicker, contest more effectively than the sub .500 teams.

As the clock is still winding down and the good teams close out to these 4 players, Jefferson/Mason/Finley/Bogans are forced to either take the contested jumper or forced to create a shot for themselves or their teammates, which is something they are just not able to do.


Same could be said whenever Tim has the ball inside and is trapped or double teamed as the clock is winding down.

If you replace the Mason/Bogans/ Finley and even R.J in these situations with Salmons, or a wing of such, it would improve the Spurs offense as Salmons would be able to create his own shot more effectively or create easier opportunity for his teammates.

Salmons or a wing of such, would improve our defense and offense a lot more than people think. IMO

All in all in my ultimate dream scenario. I'd love the Spurs to trade Finley/Bonner and a 1st to Chicago for Salmons and then turn around and trade Mason/ Mahimni and Splitter for Haywood.

Or I'd even consider Mason and Mahimni for Turiaf straight up.

Or just throw in Tyrus Thomas in the Salmons deal.

[HarlemHeat37]

There's absolutely no chance that Blair plays more than 15 MPG in the playoffs IMO..no chance..

The playoffs are obviously a much different game..Blair is going to be in foul trouble a lot quicker, Pop is going to pull him for his rookie mistakes a lot quicker..teams game-plan for specific teams a lot more thoroughly, and that's something Blair can't quickly adjust to in his rookie season..it would be unfair to him to expect him to play more than that IMO..

The Spurs clearly need another big..Bonner isn't the answer, it's too risky to depend on him after what happened last year..Ratliff could be good as a 5th big in case of foul trouble and for depth purposes, but I don't want to rely on a 37-38 year old player when we're already relying on McDyess/Duncan as our main bigs to begin with..

IMO, we need either a #2 big that can push McDyess/Blair to 3rd and 4th, which would make them elite complimentary bigs IMO..or we need a big man that can give us a different dimension of defense for 15-20 MPG, which would be an energy guy/shot blocker..we also need a better perimeter stopper..I would like to combine the energy big with a legit perimeter player..

I would settle for 1 of those, depending on who it is..the only guy that has been listed that could be a legit #2 is Haywood(it's looking like it might be unrealistic to get him if the offers like the one from Chicago is true), so we might be better off looking to get a complimentary big + a competent wing player in a package..

Trading Jefferson would solve more problems than anything IMO, but that's a lot easier said than done..

[Bruno]

Why? Because he was the 37th pick? DeJuan is better than Oberto, who was our starting center in 2007.

Maybe because the last time a rookie as young as Blair played a significant role for a true contender, it was 30 years ago and the rookie was Magic Johnson.

[HarlemHeat37]

Quick search, in the modern era, there have only been 2 big men that played more than 20 MPG at around Blair's age on a team that made it to the 2nd round or beyond..Tim Duncan and Charles Barkley..ya, that's not happening..

[Ice009]

Tonight would be a nice night to pull off a collusion like trade just before the Lakers game ;).

[Bruno]

Who cares if he is 20 or 27. Fabrico Oberto was 31 when he played 20 minutes a game for the Spurs in 2007.

First, Oberto wasn't a rookie in 07.
Second, you can't seriously think that experience isn't damn important for a bigman.

[jason1301]

Quick search, in the modern era, there have only been 2 big men that played more than 20 MPG at around Blair's age on a team that made it to the 2nd round or beyond..Tim Duncan and Charles Barkley..ya, that's not happening..

That's a valid point. I guess TD, Dice and Bonner will take most of the minutes.

[DPG21920]

Oberto also had a ton of basketball smarts that Blair does not possess yet. He was also a much better defender.

[Ice009]

First, Oberto wasn't a rookie in 07.
Second, you can't seriously think that experience isn't damn important for a bigman.

I agree with you. It'd be tough for DeJuan, but I would be willing to give him that chance if we can't get anyone else.

[MaNu4Tres]

Maybe because the last time a rookie as young as Blair played a significant role for a true contender, it was 30 years ago and the rookie was Magic Johnson.

It's not fair to say that, usually the rookies are not good at all for true contenders since they were picked really late in the draft the previous season.

To make a fair assessment, Parker was Blair's age when he won his first title and he played a significant role. Rondo was 22 and was essential in Bostons title two years ago. Manu was great as a rookie in 2003 and played a huge role. Sam Cassell played a significant role his rookie season for the Rockets. ( As was Robert Horry his second year).

[Bruno]

It's not fair to say that, usually the rookies are not good at all for true contenders since they were picked really late in the draft the previous season.

To make a fair assessment, Parker was Blair's age when he won his first title and he played a significant role. Rondo was 22 and was essential in Bostons title two years ago. Manu was great as a rookie in 2003 and played a huge role. Sam Cassell played a significant role his rookie season for the Rockets. ( As was Robert Horry his second year).

It's sure that it's more fair to compare rookies to players that are in their third NBA year...

Not to mention, as HarlemHeat37 pointed, that experience is even more crucial for bigmen.

If Spurs are a legit contender, Blair will be their 4th PF/C when they will enter in the playoffs. If Blair is their 2nd or 3rd PF/C, there is a huge probability that it turns as a disaster.

[jason1301]

The reason it is not happening is pop's dislike of inexperience, not his age. Last season at this time George Hill dropped out of the rotation for no reason other than lack of experience. I don't think Pop will make the same mistake.

I think there was some speculation, that Pop was upset about these naked photos of G Hill surfacing on the web...

[Ice009]

I think there was some speculation, that Pop was upset about these naked photos of G Hill surfacing on the web...

I will fire Pop right now if that is the only reason Hill dropped out of the rotation.

That is fucking idiotic stuff from Pop if that is what he based it on.

Those photos weren't even current were they?

[MaNu4Tres]

It's sure that it's more fair to compare rookies to players that are in their third NBA year...


I didn't compare a rookie to a player that was in their third year.



If Spurs are a legit contender, Blair will be their 4th PF/C when they will enter in the playoffs. If Blair is their 2nd or 3rd PF/C, there is a huge probability that it turns as a disaster.

Even if we get Haywood, (who would be the only big that is worth giving up future assets for and the only big out there that is slightly better than what we have.)

Spurs still wouldn't win a damn thing because of the quality of our depth in our wing spots. It's so obvious how inferior they are in the situations where I pointed out previously in post 972.

[MaNu4Tres]

Fact: top 15 picks are made by non-playoff teams. Fact: rarely does a non-playoff team make it to the second round the next season. Just thought I'd point that out.

Exactly, same scenario I tried to point out.

[Chieflion]

I would be very excited if we could get Salmons and Haywood in one fell swoop.

[exstatic]

I think there was some speculation, that Pop was upset about these naked photos of G Hill surfacing on the web...

I think there's some speculation that your attempt at humor fell completely flat.

[5in10]

I believe GH3 was a rookie last year and actually got significant playing time in the playoffs...more so than he did in regular season. It doesn't matter if Blair is a rookie,It doesn't matter what his shortcomings are,If he can help us win than than hes gonna get PT. I think pop learned from his mistake from GH3 last year, and wont make the same mistake again.

[Bruno]

Spurs still wouldn't win a damn thing because of the quality of our depth in our wing spots. For the reasons' I posted above. It's so obvious how inferior they are in the situations where I pointed out previously in post 972.

The truth is that I fully disagree with what you say.

In the playoff, TP can play 36mpg, Manu 30mpg and RJ 38mpg.
Hill has been good and deserves to play the 30mpg available behind TP and Manu.

There is only 10mpg behind RJ left. I don't see where is the huge problem that these minutes are played by Mason, Finley or Bogans.

If Spurs get Salmons, they will be in one of the 3 following situations:
1) Salmons play 10mpg.
2) Spurs play small ball.
3) Salmons takes minutes from Parker, Hill, Manu or RJ.

Now, my POW:
1) Trading for a player who plays 10mpg is qutie pointless.
2) Samll ball should be a last resort option.
3) Salmons isn't an upgrade over Parker, Hill, Manu or RJ.

[jason1301]

I think there's some speculation that your attempt at humor fell completely flat.

That wasn't humor, ppl actually said that.


I will fire Pop right now if that is the only reason Hill dropped out of the rotation.

That is fucking idiotic stuff from Pop if that is what he based it on.

Those photos weren't even current were they?

This is the reason I really like Pop --he understands that Basketball is just a sport and values players character as much as their in court skills.

There was another incident a few years back, sorry i am not remembering any names. But one of our players got into some sort of fight off the court, and next day Pop called him, saying that this is a small community you should try to be more of a role model.... He left the team, and that incident had a lot to do with it.

[Sean Cagney]

I believe GH3 was a rookie last year and actually got significant playing time in the playoffs...more so than he did in regular season. It doesn't matter if Blair is a rookie,It doesn't matter what his shortcomings are,If he can help us win than than hes gonna get PT. I think pop learned from his mistake from GH3 last year, and wont make the same mistake again.

Hill got more time early, he was used too late in the Dallas series so you are wrong there. He got used in game 5 when it was too late and did well, before that Pop didn't think he was ready and he hardly got any mins at all.

I hope that changes this year with him and Blair, especially Blair.

[MaNu4Tres]

The truth is that I fully disagree with what you say.

In the playoff, TP can play 36mpg, Manu 30mpg and RJ 38mpg.
Hill has been good and deserves to play the 30mpg available behind TP and Manu.

There is only 10mpg behind RJ left. I don't see where is the huge problem that these minutes are played by Mason, Finley or Bogans.

If Spurs get Salmons, they will be in one of the 3 following situations:
1) Salmons play 10mpg.
2) Spurs play small ball.
3) Salmons takes minutes from Parker, Hill, Manu or RJ.

Now, my POW:
1) Trading for a player who plays 10mpg is qutie pointless.
2) Samll ball should be a last resort option.
3) Salmons isn't an upgrade over Parker, Hill, Manu or RJ.

Salmons is an upgrade over the R.J of the past 2 months.

And this is the situation I pointed out earlier in the thread. It wouldn't be just 10 minutes. If Spurs played R.J 38 minutes a game with the way he is playing, Spurs wouldn't get past the first round.


I'm starting to become a huge homer on the proposed Salmons/ Thomas deal.

It would help the team on both ends of the floor and make our team extremely versatile. It would be a significant upgrade and a change of such could just be what the Spurs need to compete with the top teams and give them a chance.


Parker 32-37 minutes
Salmons 25-30 minutes
Jefferson 28-33 minutes
Tim 33-38 minutes
McDyess 20-25 minutes

Manu 26-31 minutes
Hill 24-29 minutes
Blair 20-25 minutes
Thomas 18-23 minutes

Very solid 9 man rotation that consist of players that are anything but one dimensional. Our 48 minute attack would be efficient on both ends and would be more so of an "48 minutes of hell" for the opposition.

Bogans -DNP unless foul trouble or an injury
Ratliff- 10-15 minutes against LA or DNP's unless foul trouble or an injury
L. Hunter- DNP unless Hill injury or inactive list
Hairston- DNP unless foul trouble or injury or inactive list

What would the trade take now?

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yfs3dzr

A first round pick and or Splitter?

I think in order for Bulls to really consider it, the Spurs would have to throw in a 1st rounder and Splitter. Would you do it?

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm sure Pop will give Blair a chance, I don't doubt that..I just doubt that Blair actually has success in the playoffs, which will LEAD to Pop limiting his minutes, which is what I expect, especially when you look at NBA history..

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm sure Pop will give Blair a chance, I don't doubt that..I just doubt that Blair actually has success in the playoffs, which will LEAD to Pop limiting his minutes, which is what I expect, especially when you look at NBA history..

To make a fair assessment look at which players have been the most consistent against playoff teams or even teams that are over .500.

Tim/Parker/Blair/and (McDyess /Hill to an extent) have been the most consistent and productive against these teams.

Everyone else has been horrible.

I don't know what else you can look at to help you make such a prediction.

[Dro210]

Salmons is an upgrade over the R.J of the past 2 months.

And this is the situation I pointed out earlier in the thread. It wouldn't be just 10 minutes. If Spurs played R.J 38 minutes a game with the way he is playing, Spurs wouldn't get past the first round.

Seriously... What has RJ shown that would make you think he could play 38mpg for us in the playoffs and us be successful, Bruno?

[jason1301]

I'm sure Pop will give Blair a chance, I don't doubt that..I just doubt that Blair actually has success in the playoffs, which will LEAD to Pop limiting his minutes, which is what I expect, especially when you look at NBA history..

That, if Blair plays extended minutes in the playoffs he got to earn that.

[holcs50]

I wish a lot of things but a player similar to jefferson that plays 10x more aggressively and rebounds a shitload better is Caron Butler....wish we could just swap the two.

[Bruno]

Salmons is an upgrade over the R.J of the past 2 months.

And this is the situation I pointed out earlier in the thread. It wouldn't be just 10 minutes. If Spurs played R.J 38 minutes a game with the way he is playing, Spurs wouldn't get past the first round.

It's sure that if you start cutting some minutes from everybody, you will find more minutes for Salmons...

Now, I don't see where is the point of playing TP 32mpg while he can play 36mpg. I way rather have 4 more minutes of TP, even if he is a little tired, than 4 more minutes of Salmons.

And even if RJ has been damn bad, Salmons isn't an upgrade over him.

[MaNu4Tres]

It's sure that if you start cutting some minutes from everybody, you will find more minutes for Salmons...

Now, I don't see where is the point of playing TP 32mpg while he can play 36mpg. I way rather have 4 more minutes of TP, even if he is a little tired, than 4 more minutes of Salmons.

And even if RJ has been damn bad, Salmons isn't an upgrade over him.

Salmons is on the defensive end. And he is in the half court offense in the Spurs system. ( Salmons is much more threatening from the triple threat position). Being able to put the ball on the floor and create for himself and others. This happens when Parker or Manu penetrate off the pick and roll and kick out to the corner. This is where Salmons would be better than R.J.

The only thing R.J has on Salmons is his ability to post up and his finishing ability in transition.

[Bruno]

Seriously... What has RJ shown that would make you think he could play 38mpg for us in the playoffs and us be successful, Bruno?

If you give some of these minutes to a player like Salmons, it wouldn't make the team more successful.

[Dro210]

I wouldn't want to take time from Tony at all...

but I disagree... I think Salmons, in our system, is an upgrade. (assuming he doesn't show up and give an RJ like effort... which is my only question about him.)

RJ may be the better player in a vacuum, maybe, but this isn't a vacuum, and he continues to show he doesn't really fit.

[DPG21920]

This seems to be a point of debate, because I don't think Salmons is a good defender or better than RJ on that end. He also seems like a guy who won't give good effort unless he is getting shots.

[MaNu4Tres]

The point of the argument is we can agree to disagree.

[DPG21920]

I agree.

[MaNu4Tres]

He also seems like a guy who won't give good effort unless he is getting shots.

Well I hate to break it to you, but if you were to look this up in the dictionary it would have Richard Jeffersons' picture right by it.

[Bruno]

If you think that an average player like Salmons is better than RJ, then Spurs first priority should be to trade RJ. He could easily be traded because his contract is a short one.

[Ice009]

If you think that an average player like Salmons is better than RJ, then Spurs first priority should be to trade RJ. He could easily be traded because his contract is a short one.

Hmm I think you are the only person on this board that has said it would be easy to trade RJ.

[DPG21920]

Well I hate to break it to you, but if you were to look this up in the dictionary it would have Richard Jeffersons' picture right by it.

That is what I eluded to. Why get a lesser version of a player with less upside that has the same problems?

RJ is known for at least being a "character" guy. I don't think Salmons is.

[Bruno]

Hmm I think you are the only person on this board that has said it would be easy to trade RJ.

If you trade him for a player whose contract expire in 2011 or after, it's easy to trade him.

[MaNu4Tres]

If you think that an average player like Salmons is better than RJ, then Spurs first priority should be to trade RJ. He could easily be traded because his contract is a short one.

It all depends on the system.

If you were to go to UCLA in the summer of 2004 and watch Jefferson and Bowen on separate teams playing the pick up games they usually play, it would be easy to see Jefferson is better than Bowen in that scenario.

But in the Spurs system. I'd take prime Bowen over prime Jefferson any day.

Same scenario.

Jefferson is better than Salmons in a vacuum, but in a system like the Spurs Salmons would be more effective. imo

[MaNu4Tres]

That is what I eluded to. Why get a lesser version of a player with less upside that has the same problems?

RJ is known for at least being a "character" guy. I don't think Salmons is.

Your wrong here.

Salmons is much more effective in the half-court offense than Jefferson. Jefferson can't create offense effectively when the ball is kicked to him in the corner. Salmons has the ball handling ability and quickness to create effectively in this scenario.

On defense..
Salmons also has better lateral quickness and foot speed to negate penetration to a degree from the perimeter. ( As well as lateral quickness to dictate the ball-handler or creator to vulnerable spots on the floor). Which is part of the Spurs' defensive philosophy.


And

Salmons hasn't done anything in his career where you should question if he's a character guy.

[Ice009]

If you trade him for a player whose contract expire in 2011 or after, it's easy to trade him.

So you are saying that if the Spurs wanted to trade him that is no problem and it could be done this season - They just have to take on longer contracts. Interesting take because it seems the Spurs don't want to take on longer contracts. I'd hate it if that is the only thing stopping the Spurs from trading him.

I would have thought that it is near impossible to trade him because no one would want him even if the contract is short. 14 million is a lot for a player that doesn't produce much.

[Dro210]

If you think that an average player like Salmons is better than RJ, then Spurs first priority should be to trade RJ. He could easily be traded because his contract is a short one.

I'm all for that, I think it'll be easy to move him next year, but I don't know about this year. (Also, curious who you think we could possibly get for him right now, since you usually have good insight.)

Salmons, like RJ, has had an off year, but I'd say he's above average. Poor man's Joe Johnson maybe. I question both guys effort, but I'm positive Salmons is a better shooter and distributor. I think he's a slightly better defender too, but if he doesn't bring the effort, it wouldn't matter.

[DPG21920]

Your wrong here.

Salmons is much more effective in the half-court offense than Jefferson. Jefferson can't create offense effectively when the ball is kicked to him in the corner. Salmons has the ball handling ability and quickness to create effectively in this scenario.

On defense..
Salmons also has better lateral quickness and foot speed to negate penetration to a degree from the perimeter. ( As well as lateral quickness to dictate the ball-handler or creator to vulnerable spots on the floor). Which is part of the Spurs' defensive philosophy.


And

Salmons hasn't done anything in his career where you should question if he's a character guy.

I think you are wrong on all points. But there is no changing your mind or mine at this point.