official offseason thread

[J_Paco]

DMC is both a headcase/baby and yesterday’s NBA. HARD pass. I doubt at this point in his injury arc that he could guard perimeter bigs, let alone switch onto wings or guards.

He is likely going to try to reunite with Davis & James, again.

With all the leg injuries, I think his days as an all-star level performer are done.

Plus, like you said he's a headcase, has a toxic personality, has a propensity to be all about his numbers (ie he's selfish) & he's going to be a massive liability on defense.

He might still be able to provide some post scoring, passing & perimeter shooting, though.

He'd just be a horrendous fit on the Spurs with his terrible defense, toxic personality & so many young players for him to be a bad influence on.

What the team will need in free-agency will hinge on their drafting (draft another guard, draft a wing/combo forward, draft a big to replace either Poeltl and/or Aldridge or trade down for multiple picks) & if they think someone amongst the young guys (Johnson, White, Murray & Walker IV) will make a huge leap forward.

[BWS-1994]

NBA is said to be targeting Jan. 18, 2021 as opening for 2020-2021 season. Also said that they will not pause for Olympics.

I wonder how this will affect Team USA, especially Pop.

[look_at_g_shred]

LMA and #11 for #1
How about LMA for KAT? lol

[Degoat]

I was surprised when I heard NBA wouldn’t schedule around the olympics.. my first thought was damn that sucks for Pop but it actually sucks for several countries as well lmao so somebody like Luka Doncic Won’t be able to play for his national team, seems like a way to lose fans globally for the nba

[J_Paco]

NBA is said to be targeting Jan. 18, 2021 as opening for 2020-2021 season. Also said that they will not pause for Olympics.

I wonder how this will affect Team USA, especially Pop.

Totally sucks for coach Pop.

I hate Jerry Colangelo & coach K even more, now.

[PhantomDashCam]

There is no package the Spurs could put together that would be worth the 2nd pick.

I may not have suggested this trade but I’m not so sure the Spurs don’t have the assets necessary. From S.I:
https://www.si.com/nba/2020/10/14/nba-mock-draft-projections-post-finals


At this point it’s not a secret that Golden State has designs on contention and would strongly prefer to trade this pick. The issue, of course, is finding the right deal, made more complicated by the team’s hefty payroll and the financial uncertainty facing the NBA at large. The Warriors’ best trade package includes the No. 2 pick and Minnesota’s lightly protected 2021 first-round pick, potentially attaching them to Andrew Wiggins’s contract for a star or multiple veterans. Golden State also has a $17 million trade exception to take back a contract in a move like this, and if the Warriors are willing to spend in this climate, should be able to cut a deal with another team looking to trim salary.

I would think they would want Gay too for his useful isolation scoring and one of the young guns: White, Walker or Johnson.
Not saying the Spurs would do it, (or that we should for that matter) - but there is enough there to entice.

[LurkingSpursFan]

I would give LMA, DJM, 11 for Golden State's 2nd pick, 2 future firsts and Wiggins. GS has trade exception to accept greater incoming salary

[TD 21]

The Warriors aren't doing Aldridge and 11 for Wiggins and 2. It's too big a drop for a 35 year old and as much as they'd probably like to dump Wiggins, it'd open up a gaping hole on the wing for a team that lacks financial flexibility and would thin out their asset base.

If the Spurs want to trade up (6-7 is probably the apex) and the rumor of them not wanting to part with DeRozan or Murray but being willing to with Aldridge is true, they have two options.

1) Trade him directly for assets that have discussed ad nauseam or 2) Expand 1 it to a three teamer, reroute those assets, take Horford and come away with a bundle of picks.

[Leetonidas]

If only Spurs could trade LMA straight up for #2, I think it would be a good deal for both teams. GS is in a unique position, and Spurs have two high level players that could help team bolster their roster and contend next year. Given their C situation, LMA would be a good fit, and give them a legit interior presence and a C who can hit threes. Then they have 4 all stars + Wiggins, plus whoever they can fill out the roster with over the summer which imho is a pretty solid roster. I don't think GS wants to draft a 20 year old and develop him while they have their big three trying to make a run for the fourth ring.

Tbh I think GS would jump at LMA and 11 for Wiggins and 2, but Wiggins is just such a shitty contract and player that i'm not sure trading up in a meh draft and taking on his albatross contract is really worth it

[Dverde]

LMA for Wiggins and #2 is a fair trade. Gives GSW cap room next offseason. I wouldn’t give up #11, maybe the 2nd rounder. No way Spurs are trading him, maybe at the deadline.

[Sugus]

Who would you take with #2? Wiseman?

Yeah, probably, or Deni maybe. I don't really like Edwards all that much, LaMelo is trash, and I like Onyeka but he'd kind of be a reach at #2 considering his lower offensive upside. Wiseman has a lot of unknowns, but I'd trust the Spurs to develop him right more than most teams in the league.


You must really think the spurs are getting a star player at 2 to take on Wiggins. He's the Bryn Forbes of Minnesota, plus he plays the same position as Keldon and Lonnie. You think this draft is that strong?

I don't think the deal is getting made either way, I'm just throwing it up in the air. But yes, I'd be willing to eat Wiggins' contract and literally not even play him (of course it's not that easy, but still), in order to get Wiseman or Deni. But as others have said, I'd think the Warriors would have to throw a future pick to compensate for Wiggins' contract duration, which makes this a non-starter IMO since they wouldn't want to part with most of their assets for a 35yo LMA.

[PhantomDashCam]

D. White is my favourite current Spur but believe his ceiling is borderline all-star, perhaps 3rd best player on a contender. I feel there is a George Hill situation brewing though ie. $$$. If LMA and White can get you #2 (Wiseman), future 1st and Wiggins - Spurs would have to look at that, that is if they feel Wiseman is lynchpin material.

[DPG21920]

Here are some truths:

1) Spurs due to their decisions with lma & ddr don’t have a lot of trade assets. Ddr & lma while good are C level trade targets imo.

2) Spurs are reluctant to trade any of the youth as they should be.

3) Spurs need some drastic reshaping

Point of all this is that if SA needs reshaping and actually is aggressive their best avenue towards improving long term very well may be by acting as a dumping ground and 3rd party trade facilitator.

Take on bad deals for big draft capital.

[cool cat]

Here are some truths:

1) Spurs due to their decisions with lma & ddr don’t have a lot of trade assets. Ddr & lma while good are C level trade targets imo.

2) Spurs are reluctant to trade any of the youth as they should be.

3) Spurs need some drastic reshaping

Point of all this is that if SA needs reshaping and actually is aggressive their best avenue towards improving long term very well may be by acting as a dumping ground and 3rd party trade facilitator.

Take on bad deals for big draft capital.

So the exact situation we were in last summer. Not sure we should expect different results.

[talkspurs]

I think people are putting Wiggins as worse then he is. His contract is bad but it would only be 2 years longer then LMA. He would be younger and fit in timewise with the rest of our team. Wiseman would give us a young big. Hopefully he would be good. All we would be missing is a 4 from having a solid young team. After 2 years we could be rid of Wiggins or resign him. He is not a bad player just is over payed. If we could get a new solid big and maybe another pick for tkaeing on a contract and LMA that would be a good trade for us.
I also think it would be a good trade for GS as they need a big Green seems to be getting worse again so haveing another solid big would be good for them. For those saying it would deplete their depth they have Klay and steph comming back this year so them 2 plus Green and LMA gives them a solid 4. if they take on Gay that along with Chriss gives them their big replacements. Glen Robinson and Burks have already stated they wanted to come back. this would give them a solid team for next year.

[gambit1990]

don't help the warriors.

[r0drig0lac]

D. White is my favourite current Spur but believe his ceiling is borderline all-star, perhaps 3rd best player on a contender. I feel there is a George Hill situation brewing though ie. $$$. If LMA and White can get you #2 (Wiseman), future 1st and Wiggins - Spurs would have to look at that, that is if they feel Wiseman is lynchpin material.

maybe, but that would be an instant championship for the Warriors (maybe 2)

[J_Paco]

maybe, but that would be an instant championship for the Warriors (maybe 2)

Who the hell cares. It would be them, Clippers or Lakers next season and LAL would still be favorites.

I would gladly take the Warriors coming out of the west over those two (fuck the Lakers & Kawhi). Plus, the team would gain a desperately needed high - end prospect to really build around.

I doubt it'll happen, though.

[itzsoweezee]

Can't believe people are talking themselves into Andrew Wiggins. Have you actually watched him play? Remember how much people hated Richard Jefferson? Wiggins is worse, if you factor in his contract.

I don't think there are any players worth taking in this draft if it means taking on Wiggins. He's that bad and this draft is not very good. Just draft a solid role player at #11, let the young guys play out this season, and hope for a high lottery pick in 2021.

[rankingtear]

Wiggins is like having a 32 year old Carmelo Anthony for 3 years taking 32 mil of your cap. This isn't the draft to have the #2 pick, it's a role players draft whoever we pick would also be overpaid.

[tbdog]

Wiggins is like having a 32 year old Carmelo Anthony for 3 years taking 32 mil of your cap. This isn't the draft to have the #2 pick, it's a role players draft whoever we pick would also be overpaid.

That's a good point actually. Number 2 pick is worth 9 mil first year. And it goes up. Your looking at 40mil for Wiggins and whoever.

[JPB]

NBA is said to be targeting Jan. 18, 2021 as opening for 2020-2021 season. Also said that they will not pause for Olympics.

I wonder how this will affect Team USA, especially Pop.

That'll probably keep NBA audience dropping. There's a reason why nobody schedule competition during the Olympics that are siphoning all the attention in terms of audience and advertising. NBA will be an afterthought and devalued, like the "Bubble" already did this year.

People are used to a certain environment, point of references and history attached to the NBA. Change that and suddenly this doesn't feel like your NBA anymore. That's why the NBA's board is usually very reluctant and careful before changing even little details.

Now a season starting in January all through the summer and during the Olympics...

[rankingtear]

There are also reports of more division games and less games out of the conference to reduce travel.

[Dejounte]

Who were the dudes who said the Rockets have a better future than us? LMFAO

Like I said over and over... Things in the NBA change quickly. Those who condemn the Spurs haven't watched the NBA for very long.

[talkspurs]

Wiggins is like having a 32 year old Carmelo Anthony for 3 years taking 32 mil of your cap. This isn't the draft to have the #2 pick, it's a role players draft whoever we pick would also be overpaid.

So are you saying just let LMA and DDR leave for nothing? I am not opposed to this as I dont want bad contracts just to have something in return. I think you are undervaluing Wiggins. Yes doing him and # 2 is a risk but I think it would make us better and give us more potential in the long run. It also would fill one of out needs with a Big.
I read a report the other day that some teams thought he would be good but did not know about All star good. He also wants to be the man and some wonder if he is not will it make him not play hard. That being said Ide still take the risk. if we can get them to throw in Mini pick in 2021 then I would jump on it so fast as we are only gaining 2 years of Wiggins contract because if not we will be paying LMA next year.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1264902234703265794/lC3YnIYF_normal.jpg
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
(https://twitter.com/wojespn) 30s (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1316844693649600521)
ESPN Sources: For third time, NBA and NBPA agree to extend deadline to serve notice on terminating the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Extension goes to Oct. 30 now, which allows additional time for talks on CBA modifications that sources say continue to be productive.

[rankingtear]

Update:

This is back to Minny.


Minny is talking to teams trying to trade the #1 pick. They are selling the pick with the idea that you can trade for a pseudo superstar rental for the 1st overall pick. They have sold this idea to the Hawks, Knicks, and a number of other teams with whom they value the assets they got. I was told, they want a Dallas/Atlanta deal. top end (3-8) 1st rounder, 2021 top 5 protected pick and that's that but as I keep telling you, NO ONE HAS INTEREST in this type of deal so far. I was told that a contender is interested in drafting LaMelo Ball or James Wiseman 1st overall. Mainly Ball while being able to use that cap to get another key player that's readily available on the market that could help them win games.


There is not enough interest in the 1st overall pick prospects but there is some in this pseudo superstar who will opt out and test the market when he's a FA. This obviously lower his value and it's why Minny won't do the deal but they want a 3rd team to give them the assets to make it worthwhile for them. They want a key young player but I was told that's off-limits for all of the teams that's been reached. I was told about 5 teams have been reached. ATL, NYK, CHI, CHA, and SAS. I was told GSW was also reached for the similar deal but will have to add a 3rd team that they have major interest in to do the deal while isn't as appealing to GSW.

This would be a major trade as this would get that team the pick and another star while GS is financing it to land the Pseudo-superstar. This is the major hangup for GSW. Minny wants to do this deal. I've heard ATL and SAS have done their homework on the deal. This will cost SAS more asset wise than Atlanta in my viewpoint but MIN wants to trade back and have several guys they are targeting in our range and they want a 2021 1st rounder since they moved their 1st to GSW.


There is a lot of info that has come out in general and most of it is true. I did get confirmation that Atlanta is looking at both Jones Jr. and KCP as possible signings.

Another rumor from the Hawks guy involving spurs. My guess is its Paul George.

[RC_Drunkford]

Another rumor from the Hawks guy involving spurs. My guess is its Paul George.

Paul George is on the Clippers. Sounds like a DeRozan deal

[rankingtear]

Paul George is on the Clippers. Sounds like a DeRozan deal

Im reading this as MIN #1 to LAC , Paul George to SAS, #11 + Young player / 2021 1st to MIN.

Added:


I would agree and say for outside of Golden State, this is a much bigger risk than reward and for GS to do the deal without going asset broke, they need to hope Ball falls to #2. That said, GS will likely move back in the lottery. SA has been in talks with both teams and players are available to them that weren't available to us and Golden State is strongly considering it.


That team wants the #1 or #2 overall pick and they really want the #1 overall pick to select Ball. They want to use that player's salary to get them a player from 4th team who's readily available for no charge. Basically, that team wants to build a contender around smart high BBIQ players who can spread the court, defend, give their priority player a lot of space to operate and they need a PG who can get the ball to players at will and make this system possible. They want to maximize versatility, size, skill, shooting, playmaking, and BBIQ. They realize their superstar isn't a playmaker which everyone knew already. It should be obvious who I am talking about. I just can't say names because I haven't been given approval to mention the names involved.

Yeah , this is LAC , guessing they want to absorb Horfords contract too.


They both want out. Both would rather move down, or get a young potential star with controllable years but NO one wants to do that. That's why they want a top 8 pick. I honestly think MIN is targeting Haliburton or Toppin the most. GS is obviously targeting Okongwu and Haliburton but they can move up with ease. They have their own 2021 1st to trade as well so if they moved back and added a key young player with controllable years, they will do it and move back up to get one of these players. Golden State can play chess but they gotta move back.

Like I said, San Antonio is the obvious dance partner. They are zoning into Wiseman and been high on him for awhile. They also have young players that teams covet and they have options in general.

If there are three teams to keep an eye on, it's Atlanta, Golden State, and San Antonio. Atlanta's cap space is very generous to a blockbuster deal. I also wouldn't count on Dedmon being a Hawk in 2020. The core, yes but Dedmon could be moved.

WTF!?? :


DeRozan is opting out this year from what's being stated behind the scenes and has full interest of the Clippers in a SnT deal. GS would die if they had to pay the tax for Dedmon of all players. Naw, this ain't it. We are talking about #1 overall pick. We are talking a perennial all star.

[Dejounte]

Paul George to SA?!? Yuck

[talkspurs]

[QUOTE=rankingtear;10297070]Im reading this as MIN #1 to LAC , Paul George to SAS, #11 + Young player / 2021 1st to MIN.

Added:

That is a horrible trade for the Spurs. also we would have to get rid of someone with a bigger salary to match up with george. Would be funny since Kawhi wanted George here and we wait till he leaves and then get him.

[Joseph Kony]

spurs trading up and nabbing Wiseman would be pretty awesome. i don't think he is going to be some D-Rob level player but he is definitely starting C / potential all-star quality and would fit in well with the young core

[rankingtear]

DeRozan is opting out this year from what's being stated behind the scenes and has full interest of the Clippers in a SnT deal. GS would die if they had to pay the tax for Dedmon of all players. Naw, this ain't it. We are talking about #1 overall pick. We are talking a perennial all star.

WTF?!

[Dejounte]

WTF?!

Maybe it's time to start questioning whether this guy is full of shit.

[talkspurs]

Maybe it's time to start questioning whether this guy is full of shit.

To LAC I could not see him getting a good contract. I could see him getting a good contract maybe from another team only denver would be a conrender though.

[Thomas82]

spurs trading up and nabbing Wiseman would be pretty awesome. i don't think he is going to be some D-Rob level player but he is definitely starting C / potential all-star quality and would fit in well with the young core

+1 Cosign!!

[Leetonidas]

WTF?!

Where are you getting this from

[cool cat]

Anytime you see comments like this...
"I just can't say names because I haven't been given approval to mention the names involved."
you have to take with a grain of salt.

[rankingtear]

Maybe it's time to start questioning whether this guy is full of shit.

Yeah maybe, but it's a long offseason, atleast it's a break from the recycled forbes and poop comments.


If I am reading this correctly:

- The GS deal is for Murray + 11 for Wiseman and TPE.
- Dedmon is somehow involved in the trade
- Murray is available for GSW at #2 and MIN at #1 but not available for ATL at #6.
- S&T Derozan to LAC for minimal return

[Robz4000]

I only believe things if I hear it from tspence or wojtek tbh.

[TD 21]

I doubt most teams, particularly aspiring contenders, would prefer Murray over White and pairing DeRozan with Scumbag wouldn't make sense. Sure, he'd provide a clear upgrade in play making, but he can't play off ball (or defend) and obviously they wouldn't want the latter to take a back seat nor does he possess the humility to do so. The ideal compliment is someone along the lines of Lowry.

I've been a proponent of consolidating and trading up for a myriad of players, but I'd want the assets relinqueshed confined to Aldridge/DeRozan (or whatever asset for them if it's a 3 team trade), 11 and Murray. Not interested in going beyond that for a relative unknown.

[Degoat]

If there’s smoke there’s fire! Lol honestly would move anyone to grab wiseman

[FutureMan]

I wonder if it’s a three team trade with the Clippers that keeps George in LA. This way they can go “big 3” with Kawhi, DeRozan, & George. Something like:

LAC: DeRozan
MIN: Harrell & SAS 11th
SAS: MIN 1st & James Johnson

I honestly think the Clippers might want more for Harrell. But since he is on an expiring deal they really can’t get too greedy.

[Dverde]

I wonder if it’s a three team trade with the Clippers that keeps George in LA. This way they can go “big 3” with Kawhi, DeRozan, & George. Something like:

LAC: DeRozan
MIN: Harrell & SAS 11th
SAS: MIN 1st & James Johnson

I honestly think the Clippers might want more for Harrell. But since he is on an expiring deal they really can’t get too greedy.

Clippers going to have to move salary to pay DDR. Harrell is small potatoes in salaries.

[TD 21]

I wonder if it’s a three team trade with the Clippers that keeps George in LA. This way they can go “big 3” with Kawhi, DeRozan, & George. Something like:

LAC: DeRozan
MIN: Harrell & SAS 11th
SAS: MIN 1st & James Johnson

I honestly think the Clippers might want more for Harrell. But since he is on an expiring deal they really can’t get too greedy.

- Take what I said about DeRozan with Scumbag and double it with George.
- Scumbag and George are too big of divas to defend "PF's" full time.
- Harrell is a free agent and doesn't make sense for the Timberwolves for the same reason DeRozan doesn't for the Clippers: Why would they turn Towns, their best player, into a floor spacer for him? Also, Harrell mostly needs to defend C's.
- There's also no way he's worth moving from 1 to 11, even in this draft.

[FutureMan]

Clippers going to have to move salary to pay DDR. Harrell is small potatoes in salaries.
Harrell WAS small potatoes. A sign+trade for Harrell isn’t too far off from what a sign+trade for DeRozan might be.

[FutureMan]

- Take what I said about DeRozan with Scumbag and double it with George.
- Scumbag and George are too big of divas to defend "PF's" full time.
- Harrell is a free agent and doesn't make sense for the Timberwolves for the same reason DeRozan doesn't for the Clippers: Why would they turn Towns, their best player, into a floor spacer for him? Also, Harrell mostly needs to defend C's.
- There's also no way he's worth moving from 1 to 11, even in this draft.

KAT starting shooting 8 threes a game this past year. He’s spacing the floor all by himself without Harrell already. As to the value of Harrell. I’d agree but this is minny we are talking about here. Who knows what they will do. Spurs should take advantage of any opportunity to move up to grab Wiseman.

[Chinook]

It's possible that the NBA will allow the draft to take place during the moratorium so deals like the above could take place. It's a weird year. I don't see LAC taking DMDR is an S&T though. I think they'd instead want to trade for him and then extend him or probably not extend him so they could retool in 2021 if need be. Also considering that they'd be a clear tax-paying team, finding a workable amount of salary to send out would be hard. I think Harrell is a good player, but if he's signed to a big enough deal to make the numbers work, I don't think he'd have the value to make this happen.

I could see something of a three-team deal where a team like Philly gets Beverly and gives up their pick to SA. Hopefully that would mean that Richardson is the ballast, but I could totally see them slipping Horford into the deal and somehow coming away with Aldridge or Gay. In that scenario, the Spurs would need at least another first. There are convoluted scenarios where the Spurs could arguably get Minny what they'd want to let SA move up, including maybe getting Minny's own future first back from GS. It doesn't have to be completely different trades, but I think the motivation to get DeRozan where he wants is going to be different from SA trying to maneuver in the draft. In fact, LAC acquiring some salary via trades or by getting picks and signing them to contracts.

[Degoat]

Pure offseason talk but as much as we talk poorly about certain players on the team guys like LA, Demar, Rudy, and patty are valuable to teams trying to win. Last year most people said Chris Paul was washed and wouldn’t be able to be traded because of his contract and after the way he played this season, he’s a wanted commodity again. Our guys aren’t CP3 but they’re still valuable

[PhantomDashCam]

It's possible that the NBA will allow the draft to take place during the moratorium so deals like the above could take place. It's a weird year. I don't see LAC taking DMDR is an S&T though. I think they'd instead want to trade for him and then extend him or probably not extend him so they could retool in 2021 if need be. Also considering that they'd be a clear tax-paying team, finding a workable amount of salary to send out would be hard. I think Harrell is a good player, but if he's signed to a big enough deal to make the numbers work, I don't think he'd have the value to make this happen.

I could see something of a three-team deal where a team like Philly gets Beverly and gives up their pick to SA. Hopefully that would mean that Richardson is the ballast, but I could totally see them slipping Horford into the deal and somehow coming away with Aldridge or Gay. In that scenario, the Spurs would need at least another first. There are convoluted scenarios where the Spurs could arguably get Minny what they'd want to let SA move up, including maybe getting Minny's own future first back from GS. It doesn't have to be completely different trades, but I think the motivation to get DeRozan where he wants is going to be different from SA trying to maneuver in the draft. In fact, LAC acquiring some salary via trades or by getting picks and signing them to contracts.

This was posted earlier today
https://www.slamonline.com/nba/transaction-moratorium-to-be-lifted-prior-to-2020-nba-draft/


There is much unknown to the offseason but one thing team executives confirmed to ESPN is that the transaction moratorium will be lifted before the draft.

[Chinook]

This was posted earlier today
https://www.slamonline.com/nba/transaction-moratorium-to-be-lifted-prior-to-2020-nba-draft/

If that's true, this is going to be a weird off-season. I don't think it'll be that bad, but it means the opt-in deadline will be set to before the draft, because the moratorium is supposed to mark the transition between years. That also means that direct sign-and-trades on draft night will actually be legal. Also, what is suggests is that the moratorium will START before the draft, meaning you'll see agree-to contracts and whatnot prior to draft night. Weird.

[Degoat]

If that's true, this is going to be a weird off-season. I don't think it'll be that bad, but it means the opt-in deadline will be set to before the draft, because the moratorium is supposed to mark the transition between years. That also means that direct sign-and-trades on draft night will actually be legal. Also, what is suggests is that the moratorium will START before the draft, meaning you'll see agree-to contracts and whatnot prior to draft night. Weird.

So if that was the case (even tho I doubt the spurs would) if Demar decided to opt-in we could trade him at the draft?

[szkorhetz]

Why would the Clippers want DDR?
They only have one ball and both PG, KL, DDR needs the ball to be effective. They need better 3D players and a center who can shoot the 3 and they are set.

[spurspl]

id prefer to trade for another top pick than paul george tbh

[exstatic]

So are you saying just let LMA and DDR leave for nothing? I am not opposed to this as I dont want bad contracts just to have something in return. I think you are undervaluing Wiggins. Yes doing him and # 2 is a risk but I think it would make us better and give us more potential in the long run. It also would fill one of out needs with a Big.
I read a report the other day that some teams thought he would be good but did not know about All star good. He also wants to be the man and some wonder if he is not will it make him not play hard. That being said Ide still take the risk. if we can get them to throw in Mini pick in 2021 then I would jump on it so fast as we are only gaining 2 years of Wiggins contract because if not we will be paying LMA next year.

Wiggins is horrible. He’s been in the league for 6 years, and hasn’t noticeably improved. He just lacks drive.

The granddaddy of all advanced stats is PER. It’s offensively biased, but since Wiggins isn’t known as a defender, it will work for a quick and dirty analysis. The basis of PER is that everyone’s ratings are based on a league average of 15.0. All Stars usually start around 20, and superstars are usually high 20s to low 30s.

Wiggins career mark, for 6 seasons, is 14.7. No, it’s not a typo. He makes a shit ton of money for a slightly below average offensive player.

[dbestpro]

Minnesota has said they will trade the number one pick for a top level NBA player. Not a whole lot of those available. Could see DRR and number 11 for the number 1 pick and maybe their second pick at 33. They would still have two number one picks (11 and 17) and DDR. They have the salary space it seems to be able to make it happen or get close to it.

[tbdog]

Minnesota has said they will trade the number one pick for a top level NBA player. Not a whole lot of those available. Could see DRR and number 11 for the number 1 pick and maybe their second pick at 33. They would still have two number one picks (11 and 17) and DDR. They have the salary space it seems to be able to make it happen or get close to it.

Their contracts are weird. Towns and Russell would be off limits. So you kinda need trade around 20mil. We are not in that position with DDR.

[Dverde]

Their contracts are weird. Towns and Russell would be off limits. So you kinda need trade around 20mil. We are not in that position with DDR.

It would have to be James Johnson and/or Even Turner. Not sure worth taking them to upgrade a pick.

[itzsoweezee]

Wiggins is horrible. He’s been in the league for 6 years, and hasn’t noticeably improved. He just lacks drive.

The granddaddy of all advanced stats is PER. It’s offensively biased, but since Wiggins isn’t known as a defender, it will work for a quick and dirty analysis. The basis of PER is that everyone’s ratings are based on a league average of 15.0. All Stars usually start around 20, and superstars are usually high 20s to low 30s.

Wiggins career mark, for 6 seasons, is 14.7. No, it’s not a typo. He makes a shit ton of money for a slightly below average offensive player.

These people are clueless. Like I said, Wiggins would be the second coming of Richard Jefferson, but even less impactful and at a astronomically horrible price.

[cjw]

Pure offseason talk but as much as we talk poorly about certain players on the team guys like LA, Demar, Rudy, and patty are valuable to teams trying to win. Last year most people said Chris Paul was washed and wouldn’t be able to be traded because of his contract and after the way he played this season, he’s a wanted commodity again. Our guys aren’t CP3 but they’re still valuable

Totally agree here. LA, Demar, Rudy and Patty would have been valuable assets on almost every one of the final eight teams. As there is no runaway favorite next year, it could be a seller’s market as a bunch of teams may think they can compete.

Assuming DDR opts in, they’re all expiring at the end of 2020-21 and will all be valuable trade pieces should the Spurs decide to fully embrace a youth movement + cap space next summer to back fill with decent vets. You don’t trade all of them because you need some vet presence, but if they let you trade up from 11 to get the guy you want, or grab a future first or two in-season, you do it.

[Sugus]

Minnesota has said they will trade the number one pick for a top level NBA player. Not a whole lot of those available. Could see DRR and number 11 for the number 1 pick and maybe their second pick at 33. They would still have two number one picks (11 and 17) and DDR. They have the salary space it seems to be able to make it happen or get close to it.

I could actually see this. Minny is reportedly quite desperate to trade out of #1, and with their team being led by two young players in KAT and Dlo, the FO might be more interested in adding a vet presence that can also carry the offense, than adding yet another lottery prospect that has to be developed and paid like a star.

If the Spurs can trade up to #1 for just DD, #11, and some filler/taking some money back to balance out DD's salary, they better do it. We need as many shots at franchise-level players as we can get, tbh.

[look_at_g_shred]

Everyone should be on the table except for keldon/luka/white and next year's first round.

[TD 21]

On second thought, I actually think there could be a non zero chance of an Aldridge and 11 for Wiggins and 2 trade. It's a longshot, but the Warriors are in a unique position, he is a good theoretical fit and it won't be easy to do markedly better.

It's not just about him though, they'd dump Wiggins, could select a high floor, plug and play wing to replace him and they'd still have the Timberwolves top 3 protected '21 1st to try to find a foundational player.

For the Spurs, they could try to turn it into a 3 teamer by rerouting Wiggins for Batum.



KAT starting shooting 8 threes a game this past year. He’s spacing the floor all by himself without Harrell already. As to the value of Harrell. I’d agree but this is minny we are talking about here. Who knows what they will do. Spurs should take advantage of any opportunity to move up to grab Wiseman.

Sure, but it's one thing to p-n-p to 3, it's another to literally have to space the floor around a rim runner/post up type because obviously they'd have to play significant minutes together. Also, on Towns post ups, Harrell would cramp the spacing in the opposite dunker spot.

A Towns-Russell core isn't winning with defense so further limiting their offense doesn't make sense.

[itzsoweezee]

If the Spurs were smart, they'd dump DeRozan onto some other team and try to sign Jerami Grant. He's exactly the type of young, 3&D wing that they need.

They'd have a super solid young core with White, Johnson, and Grant, and could try to fill the big positions through the draft.

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/09/27/nuggets-jerami-grant-opt-out/

[daslicer]

For the people who don't like Wiggins I will say that I agree with you that he's an overrated empty stat player. It's really not about getting Wiggins but more so about getting Wiseman. Wiseman has potential to be an all-star 7fter and he's really young.

[look_at_g_shred]

I'd only take Wiggins if GSW is also throwing in the Minnesota 2021 pick

[SpurSpike]

For the people who don't like Wiggins I will say that I agree with you that he's an overrated empty stat player. It's really not about getting Wiggins but more so about getting Wiseman. Wiseman has potential to be an all-star 7fter and he's really young.

Totally agree.

[rankingtear]

Derozan rumor from NBASupes Hawks Insider :


Can't. His opt in is after the draft and his agent is telling teams he's opting out. They have the money to make a run at him in FA but he wants to play for a contender.


They are covering their bases but LAC has options. DeRozan is someone they are set to add and they are dropping Harrell. They want to keep Pat Bev but he is the one SAS would be interested in for a SnT of DeRozan and he has suitors interested as well around the league especially from Milwaukee who will drop some lightly protected future 1st to prove to Giannis they can win.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Derozan rumor from NBASupes Hawks Insider :

lac has nothing to offer, they dont even have any draft picks for the next 4 years...wtf they going to deal with the spurs, they got jackshit on their roster...

another team needs to be involve...

[Chinook]

That'd run counter to the idea that the moratorium will end before the draft. The moratorium will not start before option deadlines. I mean, I guess it could, but it'd be so weird for the NBA to do that.

Also, I'm sure SA would gladly trade DMDR to a contender if that's what he wants, and it makes more sense for him and everyone else for him to opt in a extend versus opting out. The salary saved in a new deal wouldn't be worth getting hard-capped by taking him in an S&T, and I don't see any contender with the pure salary available.

I'm hoping the Hawks insider is right that DeRozan is basically gone though, because that would mean SA trying to trade LMA to build around DMDR is just a smoke screen.

[Chinook]

But they better not actually want Beverly. I think it's clear he'd have to be part of the deal to make numbers work, but SA should be looking for a third team to take him. Philly, as I said earlier, seems like the best choice, especially if they are willing to give up Richardson to make it happen.

[Leetonidas]

Beverly is trash. Spurs wanting him tells me that rumor is bs

[Dverde]

Beverly is trash. Spurs wanting him tells me that rumor is bs

Yeah, no truth to Beverly. I don’t even think they want Harrell. Just gossip for the clicks. I could see them wanting the #1 or #2 pick.

[rankingtear]

Well it is a sign and trade, Derozan would technically be an Unrestricted Free Agent when he opts out, don't know what people expect from such deals. You can always flip desirable assets, especially someone like Bev who is an all defensive second team / shooter / ballhandler. Bev is a walking mid to late first.

[Joseph Kony]

spurs have a glut of guards, and i'd rather have white/walker/murray/johnson over Beverly anyway at his salary. plus we have Mills, who we all know is not going anywhere. trading for garbage chihuahua beverely makes no sense from a roster or fit standpoint

[Chinook]

Well it is a sign and trade, Derozan would technically be an Unrestricted Free Agent when he opts out, don't know what people expect from such deals. You can always flip desirable assets, especially someone like Bev who is an all defensive second team / shooter / ballhandler. Bev is a walking mid to late first.

It makes way more sense for both sides to not have DMDR opt out if he's going to the Clippers. Heck, I could see the Spurs not wanting to take Harrell in an S&T just to not hard cap themselves, but LAC surely doesn't want to do it in a season where they apparently want to take on long-term money for talent.

And I wouldn't be against letting DMDR walk rather than getting Bev/Harrell.

[NASpurs]

This is one of those times I hope that the Spurs are being used as leverage more than anything else.

Just the thought of having two 32 year old midget point guards is making me want to go outside and randomly kiss people to get the rona.

And they're both making around $13 mil/year and named Patrick. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[talkspurs]

Wiggins is horrible. He’s been in the league for 6 years, and hasn’t noticeably improved. He just lacks drive.

The granddaddy of all advanced stats is PER. It’s offensively biased, but since Wiggins isn’t known as a defender, it will work for a quick and dirty analysis. The basis of PER is that everyone’s ratings are based on a league average of 15.0. All Stars usually start around 20, and superstars are usually high 20s to low 30s.

Wiggins career mark, for 6 seasons, is 14.. No, it’s not a typo. He makes a shit ton of money for a slightly below average offensive player.

I have never tried to say he would even be an all star. This trade is more about getting the number 2 pick. I do think he can be a serviceable player. He also had a little bit of a turnaround last year. His PER this year was 16.44 which is not bad. It is about the same as white and DJM. I know you said it values offense because that is what people say because bowen did not do well in it. However Potel had a Per of 19.2. Which is 2nd option on the team territory. I think we can all agree that he is not a 2nd player on a team player. I do think he is overpaid but I also think RJ was close to a max contract at the time we traded for him.

I would not do the trade if we had to give up our pick as well and would try and get miny pick. He is a younger player that will be an expiring contract in 2 years (one of those we would have to deal with LMA anyway). If he is doing well we could resign him at a decreased value. Lots of players have done poor in Miny. has being up there hurt his development? I have several people want Cristen wood but last offseason many did not. You cannot wait till these players break out then expect them to want to come to SA on a discount. this is a way to get a younger player and a high draft pick.

I also people keep saying just tank next year. Do you think we are going to be the only team that tanks? Do you think the Spurs would even be willing to throw a whole season. if your answer to the second question is no what happens if we end up about the same spot next year. You have to be willing to take calculated chances and I think this is one of them. GS wants to win and LMA I think would help them who knows what they would be willing to give up to get him.

[talkspurs]

These people are clueless. Like I said, Wiggins would be the second coming of Richard Jefferson, but even less impactful and at a astronomically horrible price.

I think when we tradded for RJ he was max or atleast close to it. There was a reason why he "opted out" in his last year to resign here for less when we did not want him.

[tbdog]

I would look at getting Gary Payton as an assistant, just to teach our young guards.

[Ignazzz]

I'd only take Wiggins if GSW is also throwing in the Minnesota 2021 pick

nonsense for Warriors
lets start from start;)

D'Angelo Russell's time in Golden State was short-lived.
The Warriors (http://bleacherreport.com/golden-state-warriors) traded the star guard to the Minnesota Timberwolves (http://bleacherreport.com/minnesota-timberwolves) in exchange for Andrew Wiggins (http://bleacherreport.com/andrew-wiggins), a 2021 protected first-round pick and a 2021 second-round pick, Minnesota announced (https://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/minnesota-timberwolves-acquire-nba-all-star-dangelo-russell-jacob-evans-and-omari-spellman) on Thursday.

Golden made deal for:
pick 2021 and future better sell Wigins after large playing time for Canadian
It doesnt make sense sell Back Wiggins not only with loss Russel and pick from Trade but extra adding pick #2 for #11

Warriors will try sell him for cheaper price then bought him not for higher to dump him.

[Ignazzz]

Price means team cost

[exstatic]

I'd only take Wiggins if GSW is also throwing in the Minnesota 2021 pick

Yeah, that remaining 3/$94M is going to be pretty hard for small market SA to choke down. His game isn’t worth half that amount. I’m not sure that #2, in this crap draft, is worth the other half of his salary, in this NBA economy.

[Dverde]

Seems like the Spurs may let go DDR or LMA, not both. DDR opt out decision will get the ball rolling. Taking Wiggins and having #2 and #11 is tempting especially since Wiggins isn’t a walking corpse. Just not a great draft. I think it really comes down to draft prep and if they believe #2 can be our next #1 option.

[Dex]

But they better not actually want Beverly. I think it's clear he'd have to be part of the deal to make numbers work, but SA should be looking for a third team to take him. Philly, as I said earlier, seems like the best choice, especially if they are willing to give up Richardson to make it happen.

Beverly is about as far from the "Spurs culture" as you can get. Career shit-talker, acts like he is an All-Star even though he is just a glorified role-player.

I don't believe those rumors are true, and if they are, it would signal that the Spurs have pretty much abandoned their "over themselves" outlook.

[talkspurs]

nonsense for Warriors
lets start from start;)

D'Angelo Russell's time in Golden State was short-lived.
The Warriors (http://bleacherreport.com/golden-state-warriors) traded the star guard to the Minnesota Timberwolves (http://bleacherreport.com/minnesota-timberwolves) in exchange for Andrew Wiggins (http://bleacherreport.com/andrew-wiggins), a 2021 protected first-round pick and a 2021 second-round pick, Minnesota announced (https://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/minnesota-timberwolves-acquire-nba-all-star-dangelo-russell-jacob-evans-and-omari-spellman) on Thursday.

Golden made deal for:
pick 2021 and future better sell Wigins after large playing time for Canadian
It doesnt make sense sell Back Wiggins not only with loss Russel and pick from Trade but extra adding pick #2 for #11

Warriors will try sell him for cheaper price then bought him not for higher to dump him.

I think your looking at it wrong. GS is in a win now mode. Druss was never expected to stay with the team. They had always planned on trading him. They got the best trade they could for him last year. Wiggins fits their team better (haveing Curry and Druss would have been 2 dominate pg) and they got 2 extra picks.
When you go back to them being a win now team Aldridge would increase their chance to win this year over Wiggins and their 1st. if they believe this then I could see them doing the trade.
Adding on Min next year first is what I dont know if the Spurs could get. If they do it would be because they want aldridge as the need a big and getting rid of Wiggins could help them. (I think it would more be getting Aldridge). You saw two teasm trade away multiple picks last years to get a player. LAC and Houston. OKC which was looking to rebuild was looking at getting assets. They dont need to trade Paul because they are trying to rebuild. GS does not have the time they are trying to win so. So getting Aldridge would help them. Thompson is 30 Green is 30 and Curry is 32. Thompson and Curry were injured this last year and Curry has had injuries through his career. Green has seen a decline. I would say they have probably 3 years left to be contenders no more then 5. The future you have no idea how these players will develop.

[BackHome]

Totally agree that is why all the noise is that Golden State is looking to trade there 2nd pick for a very good vet player. Any guy they get at two is going to take at a minimum one year and maybe two or three if he is a big to make any impact. So if we can swing a trade including LMA for there 2 I would do it in a heart beat.

I know a lot of people want Wiseman but I am not sure he only has a couple of games against shitty competition to judge and he did bail out on his team and left Precious holding the bag. I am really curious on some of these players what they are going to find when they do background checks from what I have heard is that there are a lot of players with Red Flags. On a side note I would trade that second pick to a really shitty team for there 2021 draft pick.

[rankingtear]

They want to build their depth, I would think they would prefer 2-3 rotation controlled players than 1 rental.

There are only 2 proven players on controlled contracts GS would want Murray and White.

[R. DeMurre]

It's hard to underestimate how bad Wiggins has been. There's an interesting box on the bottom of every player's stats page on basketball-reference.com that shows similarity scores to other players. Timmy's comps are Dirk, KG, Dr J, and Charles Barkley. Aldridge's are Elvin Hayes, Chris Bosh, Horace Grant... Boris Diaw's are Orlando Woolridge, Mike Dunleavy, and James Posey-- lesser known players that had some success. A few years ago, I noticed the #1 comp for Wiggins was Matt Bonner, but that has changed-- the most recent comps for Wiggins are Danny Vranes and Mike O'Koren.

[Joseph Kony]

anyone who legit would wanna take on Wiggins or thinks he is a good young player has to not watch basketball. he puts up stats because he starts and guns for a trash team and has for years. but his advanced metrics are so putrid, he is not even half as impactful or useful as someone like Rodney Hood, and his contract is ridiculous :lol he literally may be the most overpaid player in the history of the league because he never warranted that contract, no one else was going to give it to him, he has no chance to ever be good enough to warrant it, and teams are going to have to give up assets to try and get rid of it. dude is the definition of a net negative player. he is like a worse version of Derozan making more money and he doesnt even give a shit about basketball :lol

[gambit1990]

i'm not gonna say pop wanting bev is definitely bs.

forbes is a FA and this is patty's last year under contract.



the part that makes me think it might be bs is that pat is still under contract. i really don't see pop wanting to help the clippers in any way.

[gambit1990]

it seems like most people here wouldn't want bev... he'd be such a huge improvement over forbes though.

[Prime BEEF]

it seems like most people here wouldn't want bev... he'd be such a huge improvement over forbes though.
If you actually care about winning, bev is the obvious choice over Mills or Forbes. But the spurs “culture” is more important to the FO then winning unfortunately.

[R. DeMurre]

I like Beverly on paper-- aggressive defender who shoots a decent 3pt%. But in real life, I think he's too disruptive and immature, and often hurts his team by going too far with his antics. Instead of a glue guy, he becomes an unglued guy.

[exstatic]

If you actually care about winning, bev is the obvious choice over Mills or Forbes. But the spurs “culture” is more important to the FO then winning unfortunately.

He’d still be blocking the youngsters, though. Subtract Forbes and Beli, play the young kids, and promote Q to the big club. That’s automatic improvement. No need for Beverly and his disruptions.

[talkspurs]

it seems like most people here wouldn't want bev... he'd be such a huge improvement over forbes though.

So would anyone one else currently on the Spurs.

[talkspurs]

I know a lot of people want Wiseman but I am not sure he only has a couple of games against shitty competition to judge and he did bail out on his team and left Precious holding the bag. I am really curious on some of these players what they are going to find when they do background checks from what I have heard is that there are a lot of players with Red Flags. On a side note I would trade that second pick to a really shitty team for there 2021 draft pick.

So I agree with us not having much to go on as far as his play ability. That being said you dont get big talent like that very often. Last one was Ayton and before that was probably Davis. I know some would say a big like that is not needed anymore but you still have a few left in the league and the good one do well in the league.

As far as him leaving his team I dont know how much can be held against him on that. I think he wanted to play but had some issues with the NCAA. they said he could play then couldnt play. Then I think it was pay back money and community service and could play. I remember it going on and several people were saying he was being told one thing then told another.

I am not completely sold on him and think he has flags but I like him more then the other top pick. this is also why I would not include our pick and would try and get the Minnesota pick. If we had to include Gay to get it I would include him easily.

[Dverde]

Again you do the Wiggins trade for the future, everyone knows he’s a large Canadian Bryn Forbes. It’s a matter of having his horrible contract worth getting the #2 pick. I doubt the Spurs do it because of the three years left on Wiggins’ deal. It’s a great deal for GSW, they get one year of LMA and cap space after that.

[TD 21]

Even if most or some of this is true, the odds of it actually happening are still slim and even with the Spurs at a crossroads, that's even more pronounced with them.

Either way, Beverley would be necessary, along with Williams and McGruder, to making the math work. The first two would be rerouted to other teams for draft capital, floatsam and jetsam. The could come in handy as part of a trade to move up either directly or indirectly by replenishing.

The other asset would be crushing Scumbag's championship hopes by saddling them with DeRozan.



So I agree with us not having much to go on as far as his play ability. That being said you dont get big talent like that very often. Last one was Ayton and before that was probably Davis. I know some would say a big like that is not needed anymore but you still have a few left in the league and the good one do well in the league.

As far as him leaving his team I dont know how much can be held against him on that. I think he wanted to play but had some issues with the NCAA. they said he could play then couldnt play. Then I think it was pay back money and community service and could play. I remember it going on and several people were saying he was being told one thing then told another.

I am not completely sold on him and think he has flags but I like him more then the other top pick. this is also why I would not include our pick and would try and get the Minnesota pick. If we had to include Gay to get it I would include him easily.

Embiid, Towns and Porzingis all came between Davis and Ayton (Jokic obviously wasn't regarded as that caliber of prospect).

Obviously not much to go on, but Wiseman is probably the least hyped of the bunch.



Again you do the Wiggins trade for the future, everyone knows he’s a large Canadian Bryn Forbes. It’s a matter of having his horrible contract worth getting the #2 pick. I doubt the Spurs do it because of the three years left on Wiggins’ deal. It’s a great deal for GSW, they get one year of LMA and cap space after that.

The Hornets might by desperate/dumb enough to do Wiggins for Batum.

The Warriors would probably want Aldridge to agree to a 1 (maybe 2, with a partial guarantee) year extension as part of the trade.

[Leetonidas]

Beverly sucks. His D is overrated as hell. White and Murray are better than him and I'd still take Patty over him. He fills no need. And anyone is better than Forbes, him leaving without replacement would be addition by subtraction so who cares if he's better than Forbes. That trade ain't gonna happen but I sure as hell would hope if it did that Beverly would go to a third team. Or be traded later on.

Plus fuck helping the Clippers at all. If spurs trade up I really hope it has no connection to nephews team at all

[talkspurs]

Embiid, Towns and Porzingis all came between Davis and Ayton (Jokic obviously wasn't regarded as that caliber of prospect).

Obviously not much to go on, but Wiseman is probably the least hyped of the bunch.


I thought about those Embid is probably the closest to a true big and probably should have been included. KAT started out more as a true big. KP I dont consider in the same area as he is nota true big.

[TD 21]

I thought about those Embid is probably the closest to a true big and probably should have been included. KAT started out more as a true big. KP I dont consider in the same area as he is nota true big.

Then why include Davis? Though not the range shooter that Towns and Porzingis are, in many ways he's less of a traditional big than any of them.

If you mean big in the sense of, outside of screen setting/DHO's, confined to the paint (rim running/protecting, post ups, drop coverage, rebounding), there's plenty of them.

[talkspurs]

Then why include Davis? Though not the range shooter that Towns and Porzingis are, in many ways he's less of a traditional big than any of them.

If you mean big in the sense of, outside of screen setting/DHO's, confined to the paint (rim running/protecting, post ups, drop coverage, rebounding), there's plenty of them.

How is he less of a traditional big then KP. He does do more mid range shooting then back to the basket but KP is even less then him. KAT when he came in was more then he is now but he is becomming more and more outside. Dont watch enough to know how many other big man things they are doing. I also dont see KP and guaring a traditional C. Part of the reason wh I think he has some problems. Who are some of the other ones you are thinking of?

[Dverde]

https://twitter.com/bubblewoj/status/1317878126332973057

[tbdog]

The lack of NBA news is killing me.

[Prime BEEF]

https://twitter.com/bubblewoj/status/1317878126332973057
WTH? Funny that he’s starting this shit for the clippers already

[Dejounte]

WTH? Funny that he’s starting this shit for the clippers already

Its fake. Look at the twitter username

[EricB]

Seeing as Jerry West was tampering with Kawhi Leonard as early as summer of 2017, I. Highly doubt the Spurs would do anything to help them out.

[DJR210]

Charlemagne asking the questions that matter most

https://clutchpoints.com/lakers-video-danny-green-gets-the-most-awkward-question-ever-from-charlamagne/

[Dejounte]

Charlemagne asking the questions that matter most

https://clutchpoints.com/lakers-video-danny-green-gets-the-most-awkward-question-ever-from-charlamagne/

Wtf lmao

[DJR210]

Wtf lmao

"Ith Tim Duncan bi-thexthual? :lol

[Leetonidas]

WTH? Funny that he’s starting this shit for the clippers already

The tweet is satricial lol

[tbdog]

All those guys who complain about Gasol's contract. Times that by 2 and you've got Wiggins.

[exstatic]

All those guys who complain about Gasol's contract. Times that by 2 and you've got Wiggins.

TWO?!?!? His contract is 3/$94m. Gasol’s entire contract was only a little more than one year of Wiggins remaining deal.

[Dejounte]

Not sure about the current state of economics in the NBA, but a good NBA team can afford to have one bad contract on their roster and not hurt their future plans at all because of the salary cap. Sometimes there's dead weight there that there was no plans for the team to use anyway.

[gambit1990]

gallo is already in silver and black.

https://twitter.com/gallinari8888/status/1318495490384760833

[Prime BEEF]

Its fake. Look at the twitter username
lol I totally missed that

[szkorhetz]

gallo is already in silver and black.

https://twitter.com/gallinari8888/status/1318495490384760833
I am 98% percent sure he will be a spur.

[Prime BEEF]

I am 98% percent sure he will be a spur.
Really? Why? And how does the FO make that work $$$ wise?

[gambit1990]

i’m seeing gallo in miami.

i think he’d only consider signing with the spurs this offseason if cp3 becomes a spur first.

[Dverde]

It would be a seamless transition of Italians chuckers that can’t play defense.

[Seventyniner]

I am 98% percent sure he will be a spur.

He's going to want more than the MLE. If he will accept that it's not a bad deal, though.

[tbdog]

Mate, if Galli only wants a mle, it's to a contender.

[look_at_g_shred]

Dude is washed. He'd instantly be the new Beli on D if he was added to the team.

[Dejounte]

DeMar and Rudy both wooing PJ Tucker on instagram. If both stay, I could see PJ signing with us this offseason. That would be a huge signing.

Edit: scratch that, i thought he was an unrestricted free agent this offseason. Whoops. Bryn Forbes for PJ?

[gambit1990]

Dude is washed.
:lol

you can call him injury prone if you want but the dude is not washed.

[Chinook]

DeMar and Rudy both wooing PJ Tucker on instagram. If both stay, I could see PJ signing with us this offseason. That would be a huge signing.

Edit: scratch that, i thought he was an unrestricted free agent this offseason. Whoops. Bryn Forbes for PJ?

Could see them doing something weird like trading Walker for him though. It would be a huge upgrade, and I think Tucker and LMA were teammates at UT. White, Johnson, DeRozan, Tucker, Aldridge is a hell of a two-way lineup.

[gambit1990]

DeMar and Rudy both wooing PJ Tucker on instagram. If both stay, I could see PJ signing with us this offseason. That would be a huge signing.

Edit: scratch that, i thought he was an unrestricted free agent this offseason. Whoops. Bryn Forbes for PJ?
demar + murray for westbrook + tucker works straight up.

WB / white / tucker / la / dwight howard

[tbdog]

Could see them doing something weird like trading Walker for him though. It would be a huge upgrade, and I think Tucker and LMA were teammates at UT. White, Johnson, DeRozan, Tucker, Aldridge is a hell of a two-way lineup.

Trading Walker for Tucker? What are you thinking Chinook?

[Dejounte]

Trading Walker for Tucker? What are you thinking Chinook?

I'm honestly more confident in White having more upside than Lonnie at this point even though he's older. Sometimes a player is what he is and you sell high on that "potential".

[EasyMoney]

I think I lost a few iq points reading the passes several posts. My goodness.

[exstatic]

demar + murray for westbrook + tucker works straight up.

WB / white / tucker / la / dwight howard

FUCK NO. Westbrook’s career is circling the bowl.

[Sugus]

I'm honestly more confident in White having more upside than Lonnie at this point even though he's older. Sometimes a player is what he is and you sell high on that "potential".

Even if Lonnie never works out the holes in his game and doesn't develop further from where he is as a 21yo, which is quite unlikely - why would a tanking or near-tanking team like the Spurs sell low on a young developmental piece for a non-needle-mover like Tucker? He'd be much better off trying to aim for a chip in his last couple years in the league, instead of wallowing on a team that might ship off both their top players this very off-season like we are.

Tbh, I don't like any trade that even remotely hints at the Spurs trying to "remain competitive". Not with next years' lottery draft pool.

[Dejounte]

Some of you DOINKS are way too attached to your pets on this team. Newsflash some players dont pan out. Lol spermstalk

[Robz4000]

Some of you DOINKS are way too attached to your pets on this team. Newsflash some players dont pan out. Lol spermstalk


Agreed, but at this point they should be looking to ship out Murray rather than Walker. I'd rather run it back one more year with the kids sans LMA and DDR before trading any unless a good package comes along, however.

[Dejounte]

Even if Lonnie never works out the holes in his game and doesn't develop further from where he is as a 21yo, which is quite unlikely - why would a tanking or near-tanking team like the Spurs sell low on a young developmental piece for a non-needle-mover like Tucker? He'd be much better off trying to aim for a chip in his last couple years in the league, instead of wallowing on a team that might ship off both their top players this very off-season like we are.

Tbh, I don't like any trade that even remotely hints at the Spurs trying to "remain competitive". Not with next years' lottery draft pool.

Maybe there's hidden great intangible value in having a vet like PJ, one of the best defensive players of the last five years, to teach/ mentor our up and coming players some fundamentals. We all know that the Spurs hold veteran presence in the highest regard.

[4lifecowboy]

Walker still has the highest ceiling of the young guns, I rather sell high on White because he probably is approaching is ceiling which is a very good role player. Despite his showing in the bubble Walker still has Allstars potential he just need to slow down and learn he doesn't always have to operate in high gear.

[PhantomDashCam]

https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/1318967325941518336?s=20


Bey would be a great fit for the Warriors. While No. 2 would be too high to select him, he'd be the ideal prospect to target in a trade down in the eight-to-11 range.

https://sports.yahoo.com/warriors-steve-kerr-talked-saddiq-192303845.html

Warriors have been linked to every prospect it seems. Bey would most certainly be available at #11.

[rankingtear]

What?! 35 years old PJ Tucker for Lonnie?

[rankingtear]

Some of you DOINKS are way too attached to your pets on this team. Newsflash some players dont pan out. Lol spermstalk

Why the fuck you typing like Drew. LOL

[gambit1990]

What?! 35 years old PJ Tucker for Lonnie?
well the spurs could use a center :lol

[Indianman]

So Tyronne Lue is the Clips' head coach now?

[cd021]

https://twitter.com/AdamZagoria/status/1318967325941518336?s=20



https://sports.yahoo.com/warriors-steve-kerr-talked-saddiq-192303845.html

Warriors have been linked to every prospect it seems. Bey would most certainly be available at #11.

If GSW does have interest in Bey, then trading down makes sense for them. They could probably end up with at least two good players and the player they want, in a trade involving the number 2 pick.

Spurs have a pick in the range where it makes more sense to draft Bey and we have players that might interest them. Its probably unlikely but not outlandish that a deal could happen.

[Dejounte]

Why the fuck you typing like Drew. LOL


The question is why Dudes like YOU are dumb fuck DONKS who love POOP and Mute Cancer.

Tired of your Spurgy Doinky takes. stupid Spurstalk Eyetester :rolleyes ring around the rosie, Ashes, Ashes Spergstalk FALLS DOWN
so
BYE BYE DOINK

[BacktoBasics]

The question is why Dudes like YOU are dumb fuck DONKS who love POOP and Mute Cancer.

Tired of your Spurgy Doinky takes. stupid Spurstalk Eyetester :rolleyes ring around the rosie, Ashes, Ashes Spergstalk FALLS DOWN
so
BYE BYE DOINK

Drew is a POS moron though.

[Chinook]

Trading Walker for Tucker? What are you thinking Chinook?

I would not trade Walker for Tucker. But I do think PATFO probably thinks of Walker as one of the most expendable young players, and Houston is going to need real incentive to do this deal. I'd rather trade Lyles, Metu and a pick. Regardless, I don't see the Spurs as a tanking team, no matter how much ST seems to want them to be. If they can make a run somewhat cheaply, I think they do it. The West will be a bloodbath again, but it's still a winnable conference.

[JuneJive]

Yeah, Pop would trade Walker.

A kid that went through a trauma not so long ago.

Pop would discard him like that.

Why do you people even entertain such ideas.

[RC_Drunkford]

Pop would trade Walker and resign Bryn Forbes. We've seen things like that happen so it's not far fetched

[The Truth #6]

Overall, there sure are a lot of trade suggestions for over-paid, over-the-hill players in this thread. I just want to get rid of the big contracts over the next two years and let the young players develop while we continue to rebuild. We aren’t contending for shit for awhile. Trading for DD instead of rebuilding was a mistake. Let’s not repeat it.

[Chinook]

Yeah, Pop would trade Walker.

A kid that went through a trauma not so long ago.

Pop would discard him like that.

Why do you people even entertain such ideas.

It's not like he got into a car crash during the season. I'm not trying to dismiss what he's gone through at all, but that's not going to protect him from the realities of the NBA. Pop sure a shit had not problem yelling at him and benching him for more than half the year.

[Chinook]

Overall, there sure are a lot of trade suggestions for over-paid, over-the-hill players in this thread. I just want to get rid of the big contracts over the next two years and let the young players develop while we continue to rebuild. We aren’t contending for shit for awhile. Trading for DD instead of rebuilding was a mistake. Let’s not repeat it.

It wasn't a mistake though. You can rebuild at any time. Nothing was lost by not tanking, just as nothing would be lost by looking for ways to improve the team. The rush to become another Sacramento is weird.

[gambit1990]

off topic: i never knew until today that jason kidd had actually committed to the spurs. thank god the media didn't find out. i would've been even more disappointed. too bad he got cold feet.

prime kidd / prime manu / prime bowen / prime duncan... that's one hëll of a starting lineup.

AND the spurs would've gotten something in exchange for tony parker. they could've traded him for a better center than rasho.

spurs would've B2B tbh, maybe even three peat.

[ace3g]

San Antonio Spurs
2019-20 Record: 32-39 (4th)

2020 NBA Draft Picks: 11, 41

Free Agents: Marco Belinelli (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/29293/marco-belinelli?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs), Bryn Forbes (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/30390/bryn-forbes?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) (unrestricted); Jakob Poeltl (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/30304/jakob-poeltl?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs), Drew Eubanks (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/27759/drew-eubanks?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs), Quinndary Weatherspoon (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/51420/quinndary-weatherspoon?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) (restricted); DeMar DeRozan (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/29479/demar-derozan?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) (player option)
Area to Address: Wing defender


The Spurs’ run of playoff appearances came to an end this season, a stretch that began with Tim Duncan’s rookie campaign. And the team’s time in the bubble wasn’t without positives, as Derrick White (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/30455/derrick-white?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) played very well and fellow young guards Lonnie Walker (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/30589/lonnie-walker?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) and Keldon Johnson (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/51041/keldon-johnson?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) made noteworthy strides in their development. One question that will need answering this offseason is the future of DeMar DeRozan (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/29479/demar-derozan?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs), who has a player option worth a little more than $27.7 million. According to an anonymous agent quoted in a survey recently done by The Athletic, DeRozan doesn’t like San Antonio (https://theathletic.com/2127698/), so if that is the case would he be more inclined to opt out? Given the NBA’s finances after last season, that kind of money may not be on the table for DeRozan in the open market.


As for the area that the Spurs will need to address, it would be to improve defensively on the wing. San Antonio ranked in the top ten in both blocks per game (6th) and defensive rebounding percentage (4th), but the lack of a disruptive presence on the wing was a big reason why Gregg Popovich’s team ranked 19th in defensive rating. Can a player like Walker of Johnson (or both) grow into that role? It’s possible, as both do possess the physical tools/athleticism that you tend to look for in that kind of player, but there’s a long way to go on that front. Dejounte Murray (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/30324/dejounte-murray?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) can be helpful at the point of attack, but the wings are where the problems lie.

https://sports.yahoo.com/offseason-needs-southwest-division-181958723.html

[The Truth #6]

It wasn't a mistake though. You can rebuild at any time. Nothing was lost by not tanking, just as nothing would be lost by looking for ways to improve the team. The rush to become another Sacramento is weird.

True. But trading for DD is like tanking without the benefit of adding young players or draft picks. The worst of both worlds. We’re in the lottery now, right? In spite of not trying to rebuild.

[exstatic]

off topic: i never knew until today that jason kidd had actually committed to the spurs. thank god the media didn't find out. i would've been even more disappointed. too bad he got cold feet.

prime kidd / prime manu / prime bowen / prime duncan... that's one hëll of a starting lineup.

AND the spurs would've gotten something in exchange for tony parker. they could've traded him for a better center than rasho.

spurs would've B2B tbh, maybe even three peat.

JKidd was a scumbag who threw coaches under the bus when a player, players under the bus when a coach, stabbed his mentor Lawrence Frank in the back to get his first job, and skipped out on that gig to take a different job.

Sometimes, you think you missed out when you really dodged a bullet. Tony allowed our window to stay open way longer than Kidd would have.

[The Truth #6]

San Antonio Spurs
2019-20 Record: 32-39 (4th)

2020 NBA Draft Picks: 11, 41

Free Agents: Marco Belinelli (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/29293/marco-belinelli?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs), Bryn Forbes (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/30390/bryn-forbes?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) (unrestricted); Jakob Poeltl (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/30304/jakob-poeltl?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs), Drew Eubanks (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/27759/drew-eubanks?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs), Quinndary Weatherspoon (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/51420/quinndary-weatherspoon?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) (restricted); DeMar DeRozan (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/29479/demar-derozan?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) (player option)
Area to Address: Wing defender


The Spurs’ run of playoff appearances came to an end this season, a stretch that began with Tim Duncan’s rookie campaign. And the team’s time in the bubble wasn’t without positives, as Derrick White (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/30455/derrick-white?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) played very well and fellow young guards Lonnie Walker (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/30589/lonnie-walker?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) and Keldon Johnson (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/51041/keldon-johnson?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) made noteworthy strides in their development. One question that will need answering this offseason is the future of DeMar DeRozan (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/29479/demar-derozan?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs), who has a player option worth a little more than $27.7 million. According to an anonymous agent quoted in a survey recently done by The Athletic, DeRozan doesn’t like San Antonio (https://theathletic.com/2127698/), so if that is the case would he be more inclined to opt out? Given the NBA’s finances after last season, that kind of money may not be on the table for DeRozan in the open market.


As for the area that the Spurs will need to address, it would be to improve defensively on the wing. San Antonio ranked in the top ten in both blocks per game (6th) and defensive rebounding percentage (4th), but the lack of a disruptive presence on the wing was a big reason why Gregg Popovich’s team ranked 19th in defensive rating. Can a player like Walker of Johnson (or both) grow into that role? It’s possible, as both do possess the physical tools/athleticism that you tend to look for in that kind of player, but there’s a long way to go on that front. Dejounte Murray (https://www.rotoworld.com/basketball/nba/player/30324/dejounte-murray?cid=Yahoo&partner=ya4nbcs) can be helpful at the point of attack, but the wings are where the problems lie.

https://sports.yahoo.com/offseason-needs-southwest-division-181958723.html

Somewhat weird article. The Spurs have some wings who are good defensively but they were buried behind Marco, Bryn, and DD. The bubble showed lineups with great defense, I thought.

[exstatic]

True. But trading for DD is like tanking without the benefit of adding young players or draft picks. The worst of both worlds. We’re in the lottery now, right? In spite of not trying to rebuild.

Tanking is a fool’s errand these days, since the NBA flattened the lottery odds. In the two years since, 5 total teams have jumped into the top 4 spots in each of the two drafts. Worst record gets you a three way tie for best odds.

[Leetonidas]

Somewhat weird article. The Spurs have some wings who are good defensively but they were buried behind Marco, Bryn, and DD. The bubble showed lineups with great defense, I thought.

Spurs have guards who are solid on D but no real wings. Spurs closest thing to a wing is either Lyles who is probably more suited to play PF in today's league or KJ/Lonnie who are both short for SF. Spurs need to add a couple of 6'7"+ guys who can play 3 and 4 because right now they basically have none

[The Truth #6]

Spurs have guards who are solid on D but no real wings. Spurs closest thing to a wing is either Lyles who is probably more suited to play PF in today's league or KJ/Lonnie who are both short for SF. Spurs need to add a couple of 6'7"+ guys who can play 3 and 4 because right now they basically have none

I see your point, but I think those definitions have evolved in the small ball era. To me, Lyles is a big; Keldon and Lonnie are wings; Patty is a guard, for example.

[The Truth #6]

Tanking is a fool’s errand these days, since the NBA flattened the lottery odds. In the two years since, 5 total teams have jumped into the top 4 spots in each of the two drafts. Worst record gets you a three way tie for best odds.

Are you happy with the Demar trade? I thought at the time it was bad. Tanking may be overrated, but trading for players who are expensive and choke in the playoffs seems worse.

[Leetonidas]

I see your point, but I think those definitions have evolved in the small ball era. To me, Lyles is a big; Keldon and Lonnie are wings; Patty is a guard, for example.

Agree but Lonnie and Keldon cannot switch off of a SF and guard a PF. Likewise Lyles isn't going to be staying in front of any top tier SFs. Spurs need guys that can guard multiple front court positions

[The Truth #6]

Agree but Lonnie and Keldon cannot switch off of a SF and guard a PF. Likewise Lyles isn't going to be staying in front of any top tier SFs. Spurs need guys that can guard multiple front court positions

They definitely need players to guard 3-4, however we define it. I hope they somehow land Tyler Bey with their second pick for that very reason.

[TD 21]

It wasn't a mistake though. You can rebuild at any time. Nothing was lost by not tanking, just as nothing would be lost by looking for ways to improve the team. The rush to become another Sacramento is weird.

Except they are the Kings, minus a blue chip prospect(s) at the moment.

Once it was clear they couldn't receive commensurate value, the goal should have been decent youth/picks, financial flexibility and not gifting Scumbag a (tainted) championship.

They failed on all counts, destroyed their reputation, became an embarrassment and now need to hope DeRozan either opts in or if he opts out, has a reason to play ball on a sign and trade to recoup some value.

[exstatic]

Are you happy with the Demar trade? I thought at the time it was bad. Tanking may be overrated, but trading for players who are expensive and choke in the playoffs seems worse.

The Demar/ Keldon trade? Sure. While there would have been a certain satisfaction in making Kawhi fake injury, and sit out another season in his prime, I’d rather have Keldon. Demar won’t be here forever, and I’m thinking one more season is it, with the NBA economy taking.

[The Truth #6]

The Demar/ Keldon trade? Sure. While there would have been a certain satisfaction in making Kawhi fake injury, and sit out another season in his prime, I’d rather have Keldon. Demar won’t be here forever, and I’m thinking one more season is it, with the NBA economy taking.

Keldon redeems it somewhat. If we had traded instead for draft picks with the Clippers, then we possibly still could’ve had him, but it is what it is.

[talkspurs]

I dont see Lonnie as a 3 Keldon maybe. Lonnie I see struggling against most 3s.

[Chinook]

Except they are the Kings, minus a blue chip prospect(s) at the moment.

Except they're nothing like the Kings outside of their record.


Once it was clear they couldn't receive commensurate value, the goal should have been decent youth/picks, financial flexibility and not gifting Scumbag a (tainted) championship.

Why? Why should the goal been youth/picks if that was also going to be massively discounted? There are returns that I would've preferred, even if most of those are theoretical. But the idea that they should've cared about Leonard winning a title is absurd. If they had gotten Simmons from Philly and the Sixers won, would you still be upset? Any team that got him was going to have a great chance at a ring.


They failed on all counts, destroyed their reputation, became an embarrassment and now need to hope DeRozan either opts in or if he opts out, has a reason to play ball on a sign and trade to recoup some value.

See, you're talking like the sky fell on the Spurs, and yet they're still in a way better position than Sacramento, which is in absolute shambles besides the fact that they have Fox. Like for the Spurs, you get a better PF, play the right guys and stay healthy, and you have a great shot at the playoffs with the number of other Western teams stalling. The Kings, for all their blue-chipper is worth, don't have a realistic chance at making the playoffs because they lack fundamental talent, have shitty coaching and aren't even a good cap place in the future considering that they have to max out Fox. This horrible, embarrassing season has only been beaten by the Kings once since 2008.

Becoming the Kings means falling into a pit of horrible seasons with no real path to get out. It means celebrating mediocre seasons, not as the norm, but as the peak of a decade's worth of struggle. Would you really rather be a Kings fan, hoping that Fox can take your team to a place DMDR and LMA hadn't missed in six seasons before this year? Nah, the Grizzlies and even the Sixers should team folks that you can hold on for as long as you want, trade away future picks even to try to make one last run and that you can still flip the tanking switch and immediately start seeing high picks and young players. DeRozan walking doesn't matter in the context of the team rebuilding. If they miss out on a late-first this year and have to settle for one next year for their cap space, it won't mean anything in the grand scheme.

[Chinook]

True. But trading for DD is like tanking without the benefit of adding young players or draft picks. The worst of both worlds. We’re in the lottery now, right? In spite of not trying to rebuild.

They're a lottery team AND still have win-now players. So now they'll be able to add that pick to DMDR and LMA and still have picks and young guys to use for win-now moves. That gives them a better immediate future than it would've if they have tanked and doesn't do anything against their long-term future.

[DPG21920]

Nah. They don’t have win now players. Hence the not winning. They don’t have the pieces to add the amount of talent that would turn DDR & LMA into win now players either.

Good news is I’m 75% certain lma and/or ddr are gone.

[TD 21]

Except they're nothing like the Kings outside of their record.



Why? Why should the goal been youth/picks if that was also going to be massively discounted? There are returns that I would've preferred, even if most of those are theoretical. But the idea that they should've cared about Leonard winning a title is absurd. If they had gotten Simmons from Philly and the Sixers won, would you still be upset? Any team that got him was going to have a great chance at a ring.



See, you're talking like the sky fell on the Spurs, and yet they're still in a way better position than Sacramento, which is in absolute shambles besides the fact that they have Fox. Like for the Spurs, you get a better PF, play the right guys and stay healthy, and you have a great shot at the playoffs with the number of other Western teams stalling. The Kings, for all their blue-chipper is worth, don't have a realistic chance at making the playoffs because they lack fundamental talent, have shitty coaching and aren't even a good cap place in the future considering that they have to max out Fox. This horrible, embarrassing season has only been beaten by the Kings once since 2008.

Becoming the Kings means falling into a pit of horrible seasons with no real path to get out. It means celebrating mediocre seasons, not as the norm, but as the peak of a decade's worth of struggle. Would you really rather be a Kings fan, hoping that Fox can take your team to a place DMDR and LMA hadn't missed in six seasons before this year? Nah, the Grizzlies and even the Sixers should team folks that you can hold on for as long as you want, trade away future picks even to try to make one last run and that you can still flip the tanking switch and immediately start seeing high picks and young players. DeRozan walking doesn't matter in the context of the team rebuilding. If they miss out on a late-first this year and have to settle for one next year for their cap space, it won't mean anything in the grand scheme.

They're the same caliber team, only the Spurs have no blue chip prospects at the moment.

Because decent youth/picks have better resale value and provide flexibility. Build up enough of both and there's a myriad of options at your disposal. Way to conveniently leave out the part where I said: once it was clear they couldn't receive commensurate value. Once forced to accept shit due to Scumbag's antics, they should have brought his reputation down with theirs. Neither the Celtics or 76ers were likely to win the '19 championship with him for different reasons.

The sky did fall (they literally made the worst possible trade one can make) and they're not in a better position than the Kings. The Spurs have slim odds at the playoffs in the best case scenario, no chance of advancing (barring opponent injury luck) and no centerpiece to build around at the moment. The theoretical cap space will likely mostly go to extensions for the youth and some overpaid, sub star free agent/salary dump.

Again, packaging DeRozan with 11 could conceivably get them up to 6-7, thereby increasing the odds of netting a core building block.

[Sugus]

They're the same caliber team, only the Spurs have no blue chip prospects at the moment.

Because decent youth/picks have better resale value and provide flexibility. Build up enough of both and there's a myriad of options at your disposal. Way to conveniently leave out the part where I said: once it was clear they couldn't receive commensurate value. Once forced to accept shit due to Scumbag's antics, they should have brought his reputation down with theirs. Neither the Celtics or 76ers were likely to win the '19 championship with him for different reasons.

The sky did fall (they literally made the worst possible trade one can make) and they're not in a better position than the Kings. The Spurs have slim odds at the playoffs in the best case scenario, no chance of advancing (barring opponent injury luck) and no centerpiece to build around at the moment. The theoretical cap space will likely mostly go to extensions for the youth and some overpaid, sub star free agent/salary dump.

Again, packaging DeRozan with 11 could conceivably get them up to 6-7, thereby increasing the odds of netting a core building block.

Aside from the rest of your argument, which I'm not getting into (aren't y'all tired of complaining about the Kawhi trade by now? Damn) - the Kings are nowhere near the Spurs as a team. A team isn't just the 15-man roster (where besides from Fox, I'd still give the edge to the Spurs in terms of young pieces, tbh, I don't like most players on the Kings); the Spurs' training, development, coaching and personnel departments are all better and have solid track records. A young player drafted into the Spurs has a much better chance to reach his ceiling than he would being drafted to Sacramento. This isn't even some far-out-there theory, it's just a fact, tbh. No team can suck for as long and as consistently as the Kings have, without serious holes and issues from the top, all the way down. Can't develop for shit, for sure cannot draft for shit, there's no real plus there. And having to pay Fox the max when he hasn't proven to be a player that can even take the team to the playoffs, let alone a meaningful run, certainly isn't a good situation to be in.

I agree with Chinook there, tbh, your evaluation of the Spurs is way too over-dramatic. They definitely haven't destroyed their reputation - if anything, the recent Kawhi blunders and antics have lent a lot of credence to the Spurs' original diagnosis and side of the story, vindicating them -. And how can a team missing the POs for the first time in more than twenty years suddenly be "an embarrassment"? Like, seriously! I'm not happy we missed the POs, but no need to be ridiculously hyperbolic about it. Anyone outside of this rotten forum, where anti-Spurs sentiment is strong, would laugh at you if you said that out loud, and they'd laugh harder the more they know about basketball, tbh.

[TD 21]

Aside from the rest of your argument, which I'm not getting into (aren't y'all tired of complaining about the Kawhi trade by now? Damn) - the Kings are nowhere near the Spurs as a team. A team isn't just the 15-man roster (where besides from Fox, I'd still give the edge to the Spurs in terms of young pieces, tbh, I don't like most players on the Kings); the Spurs' training, development, coaching and personnel departments are all better and have solid track records. A young player drafted into the Spurs has a much better chance to reach his ceiling than he would being drafted to Sacramento. This isn't even some far-out-there theory, it's just a fact, tbh. No team can suck for as long and as consistently as the Kings have, without serious holes and issues from the top, all the way down. Can't develop for shit, for sure cannot draft for shit, there's no real plus there. And having to pay Fox the max when he hasn't proven to be a player that can even take the team to the playoffs, let alone a meaningful run, certainly isn't a good situation to be in.

I agree with Chinook there, tbh, your evaluation of the Spurs is way too over-dramatic. They definitely haven't destroyed their reputation - if anything, the recent Kawhi blunders and antics have lent a lot of credence to the Spurs' original diagnosis and side of the story, vindicating them -. And how can a team missing the POs for the first time in more than twenty years suddenly be "an embarrassment"? Like, seriously! I'm not happy we missed the POs, but no need to be ridiculously hyperbolic about it. Anyone outside of this rotten forum, where anti-Spurs sentiment is strong, would laugh at you if you said that out loud, and they'd laugh harder the more they know about basketball, tbh.

You mean organization, which is a different discussion and ultimately overblown because how does the Spurs being regarded as better manifest itself?

For one reason or another, superstars/stars don't want to play here, which is by far the most important thing for any organization (being a non glamour market obviously doesn't help, but their history/reputation hasn't made any difference). So even if they're more likely to help cultivate a non blue chip prospect into becoming one, in the end they'll probably end up a feeder system for a glamour market.

They're an irrelevant laughing stock who have constantly made embarrassing decisions for the past 3 years, culminating in arguably the worst trade of all time (I don't even care if Johnson becomes Butler or a poor man's version; he was a 29th pick).

Spurs have better depth of youth (Fox and Bagley somehow comprise the entirety of their youth), but in a star driven league they at least have a player who definitely possesses those qualities and another who might.

[rankingtear]

This again?! Spurs would be fine, they have 2 top 100 guys in Dejounte and Derrick. Jakob and Keldon may soon get there next year. They have 2 skilled project players in Lonnie and Luka.

They competed the last 2 years even after losing a top 5 player.

The only draft that matters is next years draft, everything points to the spurs being in position for a high pick in that draft.

[TD 21]

I'd argue only White is "top 100" among the youth (Johnson appears a possibility to join him) and that's not something to be proud of or build your team around.

Competed for the 7th-8th seed, so they could embarrass themselves against a top seed or fall short and either way delay the likelihood of finding their next star by picking mid roundish.

Every draft matters and they'll fight to the death to avoid picking high because they're too busy being caricatures of themselves to prioritize doing what's best for the franchise.

[exstatic]

Keldon redeems it somewhat. If we had traded instead for draft picks with the Clippers, then we possibly still could’ve had him, but it is what it is.

The Clippers double picks, of which we were offered one, were the year before, when we got Lonnie.

Keldons going to be really good. Like maybe Jimmy Butler late first round good, without his team mates hating him. He got more respect from the refs than any Spurs rookie since Tim.

[Chinook]

They're the same caliber team, only the Spurs have no blue chip prospects at the moment.

But they're not. They literally only had the same record last year. That's it. Besides that they're night and day.


Because decent youth/picks have better resale value and provide flexibility. Build up enough of both and there's a myriad of options at your disposal. Way to conveniently leave out the part where I said: once it was clear they couldn't receive commensurate value. Once forced to accept shit due to Scumbag's antics, they should have brought his reputation down with theirs. Neither the Celtics or 76ers were likely to win the '19 championship with him for different reasons.

Not really though. DeRozan could've definitely been flipped for assets had the Spurs wanted to go that route. If anything, they got more flexibility because they weren't forced to tank. They could've been even more aggressive in trying to compete with trades like the Kemba deal, but they backed off. They had option value they wouldn't've had had they just decided to tank. Plus, I'm not sure the other rebuilding packages were actually better. Keldon is a good player, and I doubt the Spurs would've been psychic and taken SGA or Porter over Lonnie had they gotten 10 or 12/13/.


The sky did fall (they literally made the worst possible trade one can make) and they're not in a better position than the Kings

They sky didn't fall. The more you freak out about that, the more you're showing why SA isn't in the same position as SAC. They were a stupid Murray play away from a play-in game this year. And this is the worst it's been for the Spurs for a long time. If the nadir for SA is the zenith for SAC, it's insane to argue they're the same.


The theoretical cap space will likely mostly go to extensions for the youth and some overpaid, sub star free agent/salary dump.

You were just singing the praises of cap space earlier. What was that flexibility going to be used for if not extensions, meh signings or salary dumps? That's the reality of rebuilding. The difference is because the Spurs have good vets, they can instead use that cap space to try to get them help or dump them as good expirings for value like...


Again, packaging DeRozan with 11 could conceivably get them up to 6-7, thereby increasing the odds of netting a core building block.

So you're saying the Spurs could end up getting a blue-chipper in the draft BECAUSE they have DeRozan on the team? Seems odd to argue that they should've taken picks instead of DeRozan when they can apparently trade him for a pick to pair with that other pick they already got in the trade and after having tried to compete for two years.

[rankingtear]

I'd argue only White is "top 100" among the youth (Johnson appears a possibility to join him) and that's not something to be proud of or build your team around.

Competed for the 7th-8th seed, so they could embarrass themselves against a top seed or fall short and either way delay the likelihood of finding their next star by picking mid roundish.

Every draft matters and they'll fight to the death to avoid picking high because they're too busy being caricatures of themselves to prioritize doing what's best for the franchise.

Dejounte and Derrick are top 100, they would not generate much trade interest otherwise. You may not think they are but people in the NBA and analysts are treating them that way. For 29th picks they are exceeding expectations.

They didn't embarrass themselves the year they got in the playoffs, they went 7 games against the second seed. They got run in the bubble this year and is one win away from getting a play in game.
Sacramento hasn't made the playoffs in 14 years, that is embarrassing.

Yes every draft matters, but some drafts are safer. Is not trying to win games the best for the franchise? You can't just bottom out for a few years and expect to win right away. Since 1985 the only non returning top 4 pick that won a championship on the team that drafted them are David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Darko and Kyrie.

[jjktkk]

Somewhat weird article. The Spurs have some wings who are good defensively but they were buried behind Marco, Bryn, and DD. The bubble showed lineups with great defense, I thought.

A true starter, 6'7' or taller SF, who has the potential to be a dominant two way player would be nice.

[Collins21]

Nah. They don’t have win now players. Hence the not winning. They don’t have the pieces to add the amount of talent that would turn DDR & LMA into win now players either.

Good news is I’m 75% certain lma and/or ddr are gone.

Is this sourced information?

[jjktkk]

For one reason or another, superstars/stars don't want to play here Its the same reason why star players don't want to play in any small market in the NBA. Unless that small market has a superstar, most of the stars rather collude and play in L.A., or Miami, than stick it out in San Antonio, Utah, etc...[/QUOTE]
which is by far the most important thing for any organization (being a non glamour market obviously doesn't help, but their history/reputation hasn't made any difference). So even if they're more likely to help cultivate a non blue chip prospect into becoming one, in the end they'll probably end up a feeder system for a glamour market.

They're an irrelevant laughing stock who have constantly made embarrassing decisions for the past 3 years, culminating in arguably the worst trade of all time (I don't even care if Johnson becomes Butler or a poor man's version; he was a 29th pick)Make up your mind. On one hand you just gave a valid reason why the Spurs cannot lure prime free agents to S.A., but then you say "they're still a laughing stock"? Besides the obvious one of Leonard forcing his way out of S.A, You gave the reason why, their small market size limits their ability to lure star free agents. hence their bad decisions, but unless the Spurs find a another Leonard, super star type player in the draft to build around, how else are they going to build a contender?[/QUOTE]

[phxspurfan]

Forbes Mills Murray White Walker ... not much left tbh.


Team is about to go through The Process 2.0. And not by choice tbh

[DPG21920]

Is this sourced information?

We will see

[TD 21]

But they're not. They literally only had the same record last year. That's it. Besides that they're night and day.



Not really though. DeRozan could've definitely been flipped for assets had the Spurs wanted to go that route. If anything, they got more flexibility because they weren't forced to tank. They could've been even more aggressive in trying to compete with trades like the Kemba deal, but they backed off. They had option value they wouldn't've had had they just decided to tank. Plus, I'm not sure the other rebuilding packages were actually better. Keldon is a good player, and I doubt the Spurs would've been psychic and taken SGA or Porter over Lonnie had they gotten 10 or 12/13/.



They sky didn't fall. The more you freak out about that, the more you're showing why SA isn't in the same position as SAC. They were a stupid Murray play away from a play-in game this year. And this is the worst it's been for the Spurs for a long time. If the nadir for SA is the zenith for SAC, it's insane to argue they're the same.



You were just singing the praises of cap space earlier. What was that flexibility going to be used for if not extensions, meh signings or salary dumps? That's the reality of rebuilding. The difference is because the Spurs have good vets, they can instead use that cap space to try to get them help or dump them as good expirings for value like...



So you're saying the Spurs could end up getting a blue-chipper in the draft BECAUSE they have DeRozan on the team? Seems odd to argue that they should've taken picks instead of DeRozan when they can apparently trade him for a pick to pair with that other pick they already got in the trade and after having tried to compete for two years.

So besides the most recent evidence that says they are, they're somehow not. Got it.

DeRozan has limited value. With picks, they're like lottery tickets. Every rumored offer was better and Gilgeous-Alexander wasn't hindsight (granted, who knows who they'd have picked, but the reality is they easily could have ended up with him or Porter Jr.).

Nice try. Pretending the ensuing games would have played out exactly how they did had they closed out the 76ers game is absurd. Not sure why you keep bringing up the past in regards to Spurs-Kings. I'm talking right now.

I was? They could have gotten a blue chipper without DeRozan. The could have manipulated the past 1-2 drafts and had better youth than they currently do. And moving from 11 to 6-7 isn't "adding picks", it's just getting a better one.



Dejounte and Derrick are top 100, they would not generate much trade interest otherwise. You may not think they are but people in the NBA and analysts are treating them that way. For 29th picks they are exceeding expectations.

They didn't embarrass themselves the year they got in the playoffs, they went 7 games against the second seed. They got run in the bubble this year and is one win away from getting a play in game.
Sacramento hasn't made the playoffs in 14 years, that is embarrassing.

Yes every draft matters, but some drafts are safer. Is not trying to win games the best for the franchise? You can't just bottom out for a few years and expect to win right away. Since 1985 the only non returning top 4 pick that won a championship on the team that drafted them are David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Darko and Kyrie.

Murray isn't and there's no proof that he's generating much trade interest. He also wasn't supposed to be a 29th pick.

They did. That series was predictably for the taking and they squandered it, then melted down at the finish (granted, it was unlikely they could pull it off at that point, but still). Not comparing Spurs-Kings pasts.

No, trying to find a centerpiece is best for the franchise and the odds increase by picking higher. The problem is, they haven't bottomed out. They're fighting it because their ego is more important.



Its the same reason why star players don't want to play in any small market in the NBA. Unless that small market has a superstar, most of the stars rather collude and play in L.A., or Miami, than stick it out in San Antonio, Utah, etc...Make up your mind. On one hand you just gave a valid reason why the Spurs cannot lure prime free agents to S.A., but then you say "they're still a laughing stock"? Besides the obvious one of Leonard forcing his way out of S.A, You gave the reason why, their small market size limits their ability to lure star free agents. hence their bad decisions, but unless the Spurs find a another Leonard, super star type player in the draft to build around, how else are they going to build a contender?

You both misquoted me and took what you were apparently trying to quote out of context. And superstars/stars not wanting to play here doesn't excuse their bad decisions.

[Dejounte]

I'm not going to participate in this overly rehashed argument (classic case of a topic that only exists because people can't see beyond a 3 year plan, as if world class organizations only plan for 3 years in advance...), but saying the Spurs won't lose because of their ego is far too simple of an answer. The answer is more layered than that, and to think otherwise is to think the Spurs are some small business run by an old grandpa. As much as people want to believe the Spurs are single handedly run by Pop, everything points to him letting others have a say and an opinion in major decisions... because that's what good leaders do. Proof is there from the past and in the present.

[rankingtear]

http://www.jonahlehrer.com/blog/2016/4/25/is-tanking-an-effective-strategy-in-the-nba


The punchline is clear: building through the draft is not a good idea. Based on the data, Motomura et al. conclude that “recent high draft picks do not help and often reduce improvement,” as teams with one additional draft pick between 4 and 10 can be expected to lose an additional 6 to 9 games three years later. Meanwhile, those teams lucky enough to have one of the first three picks should limit their expectations, as those picks tend to have “little or no impact” on team performance. The researchers are blunt: “Overall, having more picks in the Top 17 slots of the draft does not help and tends to be associated with less improvement.”


But this new study also finds franchise effects that exist independently of the general manager, as certain organizations are simply more likely to squeeze wins from their draft picks. The researchers credit these franchise differences largely to player development, especially when it comes to “developing players who might not have been highly regarded entering the NBA.” This is proof that “winning cultures” are a real thing, and that a select few NBA teams are able to consistently instill the habits required to maximize the talent of their players. Draft picks are nice. Organizations win championships. And tanking is no way to build an organization.


Although previous research by the sports economist Dave Berri has cast doubt (http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/29/losing-is-not-a-winning-strategy-in-the-nba/) on the effectiveness of tanking,” this new paper should remind every basketball GM that the best way to win over the long-term is to develop a culture that doesn’t try to lose.

[tbdog]

Finally science. Fuck tanking.

[DavidTheGoliath]

That said, some general managers appear to be far better at evaluating players. “While more and higher picks do not generally help teams, having better pickers does,” write the scientists. They find, for instance, that R.C. Buford, the GM of the Spurs, is worth an additional 23 to 29 wins per season. Compare that to the “Wins Over Replacement” generated by Stephen Curry, who has just finished one of the best regular season performances in NBA history. According to Basketball Reference (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html#all_advanced), Curry was worth an additional 26.4 wins during the 2015-2016 regular season. If you believe these numbers, R.C. Buford is one of the most valuable (and underpaid) men in the NBA.

from the same link :drunk

[Robz4000]

Unfortunately RC isn't the GM anymore.

[exstatic]

Unfortunately RC isn't the GM anymore.

He wasn’t when we drafted Keldon, Lonnie,or White, either. Did you miss that whole part about player development and culture?

[Dejounte]

RC was still scouting Luka when he wasn't GM. He still scouts players.

[Chinook]

So besides the most recent evidence that says they are, they're somehow not. Got it.

It's like you saying, "Dogs and alligators both have four legs, so they're basically the same," and then cleaving to that point on matter what. Teams aren't the same just because they have same records. Why aren't they more like Portland, to whom they were just as close as they were to Sacramento? I doubt you'd equate those two teams and their make ups, but because the Kings are the more dire position, you'll force yourself to just see them.


DeRozan has limited value. With picks, they're like lottery tickets. Every rumored offer was better and Gilgeous-Alexander wasn't hindsight (granted, who knows who they'd have picked, but the reality is they easily could have ended up with him or Porter Jr.).

SGA is hindsight. There were reports they wanted to trade into the top 10 for Walker. That would definitely suggest they have Lonnie on their board higher. You're correct that it's not guaranteed that those guys were not also in their top 10, but there's also no guarantee that Keldon is going to be worse than whomever the Spurs would've taken at 18 had they already have Walker at 10 or 12/13. Assuming the Spurs would not have drafted two two-guards in the same round, they'd be looking at guys like Huchison or Wagner. It doesn't seem to bad that they got Johnson instead.

And yes, DeRozan has limited value, but he had about as much value as Kawhi did at the time of the trade. That's why Toronto got Green, took bad no paid money, protected the shit out of their first and had the Spurs pay them the max allowed to cover the Kawh's kicker. Teams immediately called the Spurs trying to trade for DeRozan, and the Spurs said no. Maybe none of those deals were good, but they likely could've picked up at least an additional pick had they wanted to, in the same why it seems like they might be able to still have another first this year if they want.


Nice try. Pretending the ensuing games would have played out exactly how they did had they closed out the 76ers game is absurd. Not sure why you keep bringing up the past in regards to Spurs-Kings. I'm talking right now.

I know you're the king of thinking the worst-case scenario is always going to happen, but this isn't a butterfly-effect thing. Had the Spurs won that game, they would've gone into the final regular-season game against a resting Utah with a chance to make the play-in game. They pretty comfortably beat Houston and NOP. There's no reason to assume different outcomes there. If anything, their loss to Philly probably hurt them against during the next game against Denver.


I was? They could have gotten a blue chipper without DeRozan. The could have manipulated the past 1-2 drafts and had better youth than they currently do. And moving from 11 to 6-7 isn't "adding picks", it's just getting a better one.

"Adding" is referring to Johnson, not moving up in this draft. Johnson directly did come from the Leonard trade. If the Spurs move up, get a blue-chipper and add that player to Johnson, and come out of this with cap space and young players, it seems like what you wanted them to do but also with them having had chances to "go for it" for two years. Trading for DeRozan gave them that flexibility, and apparently they still have it by your own admission. Yes, maybe they could've found a way to get a higher pick than 19 last year (I think they could've just by trading Poeltl, but that never happened) and targeted Hachimura/Doumbouya. You can argue though that taking Clarke at 10-14 would've been the play as much as taking him at 19, and if that were the only pick SA had last year, they would not have been able to swing around and draft Johnson.

[Seventyniner]

http://www.jonahlehrer.com/blog/2016/4/25/is-tanking-an-effective-strategy-in-the-nba


Draft picks are nice. Organizations win championships. And tanking is no way to build an organization.

That is a fantastic line.

[The Truth #6]

This debate has spiraled. The argument now seems to be about tanking versus not tanking. My point is that after Kawhi Leonard was destined to leave, the spurs were not going to be a great team for a while no matter what. It was a team of role players specifically and brilliantly built around a transcendent talent. So, if you can accept that the team was no longer contending in the short term, and headed towards sucking, then what do you with that situation?

Gutting the team to tank is not always a great idea, I agree. But we were no longer a great team and barely a good team. I believe in the Spurs organization to succeed in the long term, but I’m not drinking the DMDR Kool Aid being offered. They tried to keep the magic going. It didn’t work.

And my whole point might be this: by “tanking” by playing our young players we actually might have had a better record. The bubble gave a hint of that.

[TD 21]

It's like you saying, "Dogs and alligators both have four legs, so they're basically the same," and then cleaving to that point on matter what. Teams aren't the same just because they have same records. Why aren't they more like Portland, to whom they were just as close as they were to Sacramento? I doubt you'd equate those two teams and their make ups, but because the Kings are the more dire position, you'll force yourself to just see them.



SGA is hindsight. There were reports they wanted to trade into the top 10 for Walker. That would definitely suggest they have Lonnie on their board higher. You're correct that it's not guaranteed that those guys were not also in their top 10, but there's also no guarantee that Keldon is going to be worse than whomever the Spurs would've taken at 18 had they already have Walker at 10 or 12/13. Assuming the Spurs would not have drafted two two-guards in the same round, they'd be looking at guys like Huchison or Wagner. It doesn't seem to bad that they got Johnson instead.

And yes, DeRozan has limited value, but he had about as much value as Kawhi did at the time of the trade. That's why Toronto got Green, took bad no paid money, protected the shit out of their first and had the Spurs pay them the max allowed to cover the Kawh's kicker. Teams immediately called the Spurs trying to trade for DeRozan, and the Spurs said no. Maybe none of those deals were good, but they likely could've picked up at least an additional pick had they wanted to, in the same why it seems like they might be able to still have another first this year if they want.



I know you're the king of thinking the worst-case scenario is always going to happen, but this isn't a butterfly-effect thing. Had the Spurs won that game, they would've gone into the final regular-season game against a resting Utah with a chance to make the play-in game. They pretty comfortably beat Houston and NOP. There's no reason to assume different outcomes there. If anything, their loss to Philly probably hurt them against during the next game against Denver.



"Adding" is referring to Johnson, not moving up in this draft. Johnson directly did come from the Leonard trade. If the Spurs move up, get a blue-chipper and add that player to Johnson, and come out of this with cap space and young players, it seems like what you wanted them to do but also with them having had chances to "go for it" for two years. Trading for DeRozan gave them that flexibility, and apparently they still have it by your own admission. Yes, maybe they could've found a way to get a higher pick than 19 last year (I think they could've just by trading Poeltl, but that never happened) and targeted Hachimura/Doumbouya. You can argue though that taking Clarke at 10-14 would've been the play as much as taking him at 19, and if that were the only pick SA had last year, they would not have been able to swing around and draft Johnson.

You've admitted you don't really follow the league much outside of the Spurs, so take it from someone who does: The two teams had similar metrics, only the Kings best player/young talents missed significant amount of time, while the Spurs were mostly healthy. The Trail Blazers also had significant injuries. By the way, you brought up the Kings.

So now reports on the Spurs are credible if they support your argument. I wasn't even talking about them, just in general Gilgeous-Alexander was projected to go in the range he did.

DeRozan has less value than even that version of Scumbag did and I don't recall hearing of teams calling the Spurs about him immediately. No, the Raptors did that because the Spurs allowed them to. Sans Anunoby, they should have drawn the line at Gasol instead of gifting them Green.

I'm not thinking anything genius, I'm saying it's possible things would have played out differently. You're the one married to a certain scenario which again conveniently suits your argument.

Like I said, Johnson becoming a significant piece doesn't absolve them in the same way (Marc) Gasol didn't absolve the Grizzlies gifting the Lakers his brother because of the unlikelihood of landing such a piece at that stage of the draft. That's revisionist history and luck more than anything. They never had a chance to go for it. The fact that you thought this team could contend is bizarre.

[szkorhetz]

It's like you saying, "Dogs and alligators both have four legs, so they're basically the same," and then cleaving to that point on matter what. Teams aren't the same just because they have same records. Why aren't they more like Portland, to whom they were just as close as they were to Sacramento? I doubt you'd equate those two teams and their make ups, but because the Kings are the more dire position, you'll force yourself to just see them.



SGA is hindsight. There were reports they wanted to trade into the top 10 for Walker. That would definitely suggest they have Lonnie on their board higher. You're correct that it's not guaranteed that those guys were not also in their top 10, but there's also no guarantee that Keldon is going to be worse than whomever the Spurs would've taken at 18 had they already have Walker at 10 or 12/13. Assuming the Spurs would not have drafted two two-guards in the same round, they'd be looking at guys like Huchison or Wagner. It doesn't seem to bad that they got Johnson instead.

And yes, DeRozan has limited value, but he had about as much value as Kawhi did at the time of the trade. That's why Toronto got Green, took bad no paid money, protected the shit out of their first and had the Spurs pay them the max allowed to cover the Kawh's kicker. Teams immediately called the Spurs trying to trade for DeRozan, and the Spurs said no. Maybe none of those deals were good, but they likely could've picked up at least an additional pick had they wanted to, in the same why it seems like they might be able to still have another first this year if they want.



I know you're the king of thinking the worst-case scenario is always going to happen, but this isn't a butterfly-effect thing. Had the Spurs won that game, they would've gone into the final regular-season game against a resting Utah with a chance to make the play-in game. They pretty comfortably beat Houston and NOP. There's no reason to assume different outcomes there. If anything, their loss to Philly probably hurt them against during the next game against Denver.



"Adding" is referring to Johnson, not moving up in this draft. Johnson directly did come from the Leonard trade. If the Spurs move up, get a blue-chipper and add that player to Johnson, and come out of this with cap space and young players, it seems like what you wanted them to do but also with them having had chances to "go for it" for two years. Trading for DeRozan gave them that flexibility, and apparently they still have it by your own admission. Yes, maybe they could've found a way to get a higher pick than 19 last year (I think they could've just by trading Poeltl, but that never happened) and targeted Hachimura/Doumbouya. You can argue though that taking Clarke at 10-14 would've been the play as much as taking him at 19, and if that were the only pick SA had last year, they would not have been able to swing around and draft Johnson.
Stopped reading at your opinion stating DDR and Kawhi had the same value. Kawhi was in the MVP discussion a season ago, while being the best two-way player in the league, but DDR is an overpriced, no defense, no clutch, mid range chucker.

[Dejounte]

Stopped reading at your opinion stating DDR and Kawhi had the same value. Kawhi was in the MVP discussion a season ago, while being the best two-way player in the league, but DDR is an overpriced, no defense, no clutch, mid range chucker.

You shouldn't have stopped... because you're missing the context of his point:

"And yes, DeRozan has limited value, but he had about as much value as Kawhi did at the time of the trade"

[Chinook]

Stopped reading at your opinion stating DDR and Kawhi had the same value. Kawhi was in the MVP discussion a season ago, while being the best two-way player in the league, but DDR is an overpriced, no defense, no clutch, mid range chucker.

Feel like you read enough to have a sense of what I mean, and you were around long enough to have been here during the Leonard trade. You should know empirically that Leonard's trade value was shit because he was injured (and hamming that up) and said he wouldn't re-sign. DMDR by contrast had three years left of team control, was a relative iron man and was seen as the best player on a consistent playoff team. Yes, he had flaws, but he wasn't the type of player just anyone had. Most of the best offers were from teams in the East, and I could imagine Toronto didn't want to send DeMar there, and there was a rumor they were looking for a top-10 pick in the draft. My assumption is that the Spurs were looking to acquire DeRozan to add to Leoanrd and Aldridge using 18, Green and Gasol and probably some other incentive. That's an overpayment in my book, but an offer like that from SA is probably why the LA teams weren't able to get DeRozan in a trade either. That Spurs offer is probably comparable or better than the other offers like including Deng.

I think DeRozan still has more value than people realize, but he certain did have a decent amount back then, warts and all, and it's not hard to see Kawhi's value being lower than a lot of players who aren't as good as him because of the Lakers' tampering.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1264902234703265794/lC3YnIYF_normal.jpg
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
(https://twitter.com/wojespn) 38m (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1319678036501917696)
ESPN reporting with @WindhorstESPN (https://twitter.com/WindhorstESPN/), @ZachLowe_NBA (https://twitter.com/ZachLowe_NBA/) and me on NBA Board of Governors meeting underway today to discuss plans for 2020-21 season, including possible start date as soon as Christmas Day: es.pn/35rulPN (https://t.co/1ZR9ESSy7r)

[Robz4000]

He wasn’t when we drafted Keldon, Lonnie,or White, either. Did you miss that whole part about player development and culture?

RC officially stepped down as GM last offseason. Maybe unofficially he had turned over the reigns earlier, but from here on its Wright at the helms aka the mastermind behind the DeRozan deal.

[Degoat]

Plz give us Christmas Day start!!! I need basketball in my life lol

[Leetonidas]

RC officially stepped down as GM last offseason. Maybe unofficially he had turned over the reigns earlier, but from here on its Wright at the helms aka the mastermind behind the DeRozan deal.

Pop is still the POBO though, there's no way he wasn't involved in that trade tbh

[Robz4000]

Pop is still the POBO though, there's no way he wasn't involved in that trade tbh

I'm sure all three were tbh, but Wright is the one who has been called the engineer of it.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/915224345680658432/AmJzw4Pl_normal.jpg
Marc Stein @TheSteinLine
(https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine) 37m (https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/1319686635081158663) The push for a Christmas Day start to the 2020-21 NBA season, which would naturally please the league's TV partners, is gaining momentum, league sources say

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1197929409044504576/nKXnm0aN_normal.jpg
Shams Charania ShamsCharania
(https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania) 1m (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1319709540607283200)
The NBA is targeting Dec. 22 for the start of the 2020-21 season and a 72-game campaign that finishes before the ‘21 Olympics, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA (https://twitter.com/TheAthleticNBA/) @Stadium (https://twitter.com/Stadium/).


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Shams Charania ShamsCharania
(https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania) 33s (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1319709882753421312)
Beginning 2020-21 around Christmas Day means return to semi-normal schedule, significant financial ramifications, potentially allowing stars to play in Olympics, sources say. Details on @TheAthleticNBA (https://twitter.com/TheAthleticNBA/): theathletic.com/2157291/2020/1… (https://t.co/pdIlY1Uob3)

[LkrFan]

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1319709540607283200?s=19

[Chinook]

I'd like to see it. If not official NBA games, at least have a winter league so the young guys can play. Wouldn't be the worst thing to have a bubble honestly. I think if they let players go home to celebrate Christmas with their families, they'd be opening themselves up to big COVID risks.

[NASpurs]

I enjoyed watching basketball in the middle of summer. Fucking NBA

[ace3g]

Player development coach

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Shams Charania ShamsCharania
(https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania) 5m (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1319713978579324930)
Six-time All-Star Amar’e Stoudemire has agreed to a deal to join new Brooklyn Nets coach Steve Nash’s staff as an assistant coach, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA (https://twitter.com/TheAthleticNBA/) @Stadium (https://twitter.com/Stadium/). Nash and Stoudemire starred together in Phoenix.

[Dejounte]

Brooklyn Suns

[ace3g]

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Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
(https://twitter.com/wojespn) 2m (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1319717613090398209)
Sources: NBA and Board Governors continued discussion on call today about playing something resembling more of a baseball series to limit travel outside of bubble. For example, a team might travel to New York and play its two road games against Knicks and one vs. Nets.

[exstatic]

RC officially stepped down as GM last offseason. Maybe unofficially he had turned over the reigns earlier, but from here on its Wright at the helms aka the mastermind behind the DeRozan deal.

DeRozan deal was in 2017, which is why I included most of the youngsters. I figured that Wright was doing most of the job if he was doing major deals.

[Collins21]

Feel like you read enough to have a sense of what I mean, and you were around long enough to have been here during the Leonard trade. You should know empirically that Leonard's trade value was shit because he was injured (and hamming that up) and said he wouldn't re-sign. DMDR by contrast had three years left of team control, was a relative iron man and was seen as the best player on a consistent playoff team. Yes, he had flaws, but he wasn't the type of player just anyone had. Most of the best offers were from teams in the East, and I could imagine Toronto didn't want to send DeMar there, and there was a rumor they were looking for a top-10 pick in the draft. My assumption is that the Spurs were looking to acquire DeRozan to add to Leoanrd and Aldridge using 18, Green and Gasol and probably some other incentive. That's an overpayment in my book, but an offer like that from SA is probably why the LA teams weren't able to get DeRozan in a trade either. That Spurs offer is probably comparable or better than the other offers like including Deng.

I think DeRozan still has more value than people realize, but he certain did have a decent amount back then, warts and all, and it's not hard to see Kawhi's value being lower than a lot of players who aren't as good as him because of the Lakers' tampering.

That's exactly what was going to happen. Most people fail to realize that DeRozan was going to be a spur even if they kept Kawhi. He was the other All Star that Pop promised him that he would acquire to make the team better. The problem here is that you have people on this site that ignore logic and like to twist things to suit some weird view they have of the events that occurred.

[talkspurs]

Never heard of DDR coming here except for the trade. When was all this speculation about him coming here. Never heard of teh Spurs offering a draft pick for him.

[r0drig0lac]

That's exactly what was going to happen. Most people fail to realize that DeRozan was going to be a spur even if they kept Kawhi. He was the other All Star that Pop promised him that he would acquire to make the team better. The problem here is that you have people on this site that ignore logic and like to twist things to suit some weird view they have of the events that occurred.
link?

[Collins21]

link? It was a report in the San Antonio express News around that time that stated that Pop talked to Kawhi and promised him to acquire him another All Star to convince him to stay I think it came out a day before he requested a trade I'll try to find it.

[Seventyniner]

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Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
(https://twitter.com/wojespn) 2m (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1319717613090398209)
Sources: NBA and Board Governors continued discussion on call today about playing something resembling more of a baseball series to limit travel outside of bubble. For example, a team might travel to New York and play its two road games against Knicks and one vs. Nets.

The league should have been doing this all along anyway. There is no need to make a bunch of small road trips. Fewer, longer trips would reduce travel by a ton.

[Drom John]

Tanking. Because of the flattening of the draft there is more incentive to tank. Tanking for the 2nd or 3rd worst record is an easier target.

White as only young top 100? I'd add Poeltl who is younger than White. (Hmm, so is Lyles! though not top 100.)
FiveThirtyRaptor WAR:
38T Jarrett Allen, Eric Bledsoe, Ben Simmons, Derrick White
50T Joe Ingles, Patty Mills, Christian Wood
77T Derrick Favors, Wesley Matthews, Jakob Poeltl
89T Jae Crowder, DeMar DeRozan, Aaron Holiday, JaVale McGee
122T LaMarcus Aldridge, Jalen Brunson, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Brandon Clarke, Seth Curry, Furkan Korkmaz, Kevin Love, Elfrid Payton
150T Tony Bradley, Mike Conley, Rudy Gay, Myles Turner
154T Dillon Brooks, Willie Cauley-Stein, Luguentz Dort, Aaron Gordon, Kyrie Irving, DeAndre Jordan, Timothe Luwawu-Cabarrot, Dejounte Murray, Nerlens Noel, Kendrick Nunn
239T J.J. Barea, Chris Chiozza, Wayne Ellington, Yogi Ferrell, Jerami Grant, Juancho Hernangomez, Keldon Johnson, Mike Muscala, Josh Okogie, Otto Porter, Jr., Austin Rivers, JaKarr Sampson, Cody Zeller
291T Kadeem Allen, Jordan Bell, DeMarre Carroll, Dewayne Dedmon, Dante Exum, Tim Frazier, Wenyen Gabriel, Daniel Gafford, Isaiah Hartenstein, Mfiondu Kabengele, Meyers Leonard, Trey Lyles, Terance Mann, Adam Mokoka, Juwan Morgan, Mychal Mulder, Frank Ntilikina, Coby White, Justise Winslow
325T Al-Farouq Aminu, Justin Anderson, Marques Bolden, Corey Brewer, Wendell Carter Jr., Nicolas Claxton, Jamal Crawford, Henry Ellenson, Dusty Hannahs, Dewan Hernandez, Jaylen Hoard, Talen Horton-Tucker, Justin James, DaQuan Jeffries, James Johnson, Frank Kaminsky, Jake Layman, Josh Magette, Eric Mika, Matt Mooney, Markieff Morris, Johnathan Motley, Dzana Musa, Kyle O'Quinn, Miye Oni, Luka Semanic, Alen Smailagic, Ish Smith, Max Strus, Sindarius Thornwell, Anthony Tolliver, Juan Toscano-Anderson
359T Jarrod Uthoff, Nigel Williams-Goss, Tyler Zeller

That's 361 players with #361 defining "replacement level." IOW, WAR is a calculation of how many wins a player contributes compared Tyler Zeller..

Below replacement level, only listing the Spur with two adjacent alphabetical order players

391T Thon Maker, Chimezie Metu, Luc Mbah a Moute
430T Antonius Cleveland, Drew Eubanks, Treveon Graham
452T Marco Belinelli, Jordan Bone ... Evan Turner, Lonnie Walker IV, P.J. Washington, Quindarry Weatherspoon, Johnathan Williams
479T Quinn Cook, Bryn Forbes, Marko Guduric

Worst 5 NBAers

526 Isaiah Thomas
527 Rui Hachimura
528 Anfernee Simons
529 Sekou Doumbaya
530 Darius Garland

[Dejounte]

Nobody intentionally tanks these days

If you do, you're a loser organization

Influencing your players to tank causes irreparable damage.

Think of the culture of the team. It's like trying to tell a chained elephant to move.

Holy shit, I never liked Hachimura but that list is pretty damning for him. Goes to show lots of people on ST can be very wrong about prospects, especially when they fall for the hype. Rui looked good on paper in the same manner as Vassell, but look how much of a garbage player he is.

[exstatic]

You've admitted you don't really follow the league much outside of the Spurs, so take it from someone who does: The two teams had similar metrics, only the Kings best player/young talents missed significant amount of time, while the Spurs were mostly healthy. The Trail Blazers also had significant injuries. By the way, you brought up the Kings.

So now reports on the Spurs are credible if they support your argument. I wasn't even talking about them, just in general Gilgeous-Alexander was projected to go in the range he did.

DeRozan has less value than even that version of Scumbag did and I don't recall hearing of teams calling the Spurs about him immediately. No, the Raptors did that because the Spurs allowed them to. Sans Anunoby, they should have drawn the line at Gasol instead of gifting them Green.

I'm not thinking anything genius, I'm saying it's possible things would have played out differently. You're the one married to a certain scenario which again conveniently suits your argument.

Like I said, Johnson becoming a significant piece doesn't absolve them in the same way (Marc) Gasol didn't absolve the Grizzlies gifting the Lakers his brother because of the unlikelihood of landing such a piece at that stage of the draft. That's revisionist history and luck more than anything. They never had a chance to go for it. The fact that you thought this team could contend is bizarre.

Spurs youngsters were mostly healthy? What color is the sky on your world? DJ missed an entire season with an ACL tear, and Lonnie’s rookie year was derailed by meniscus damage, being limited to a score of games in Austin. Derrick has had repeated foot problems, causing him to miss time every season.

[Drom John]

Nobody intentionally tanks these days

If you do, you're a loser organization

Influencing your players to tank causes irreparable damage.

Think of the culture of the team. It's like trying to tell a chained elephant to move.

Holy shit, I never liked Hachimura but that list is pretty damning for him. Goes to show lots of people on ST can be very wrong about prospects, especially when they fall for the hype. Rui looked good on paper in the same manner as Vassell, but look how much of a garbage player he is.

Agree on tanking. I think it only makes sense for the last game of the year, and it changes a draft pick trade exception. The Warriors tanking for Harrison Barnes made some sense at the time. Harrison Barnes is a good argument for not tanking.

I never liked Hachimura, but that's because he looked bad on paper, unlike teammate Thybulle. Hachimura looked great on film.

[TD 21]

Feel like you read enough to have a sense of what I mean, and you were around long enough to have been here during the Leonard trade. You should know empirically that Leonard's trade value was shit because he was injured (and hamming that up) and said he wouldn't re-sign. DMDR by contrast had three years left of team control, was a relative iron man and was seen as the best player on a consistent playoff team. Yes, he had flaws, but he wasn't the type of player just anyone had. Most of the best offers were from teams in the East, and I could imagine Toronto didn't want to send DeMar there, and there was a rumor they were looking for a top-10 pick in the draft. My assumption is that the Spurs were looking to acquire DeRozan to add to Leoanrd and Aldridge using 18, Green and Gasol and probably some other incentive. That's an overpayment in my book, but an offer like that from SA is probably why the LA teams weren't able to get DeRozan in a trade either. That Spurs offer is probably comparable or better than the other offers like including Deng.

I think DeRozan still has more value than people realize, but he certain did have a decent amount back then, warts and all, and it's not hard to see Kawhi's value being lower than a lot of players who aren't as good as him because of the Lakers' tampering.

- DeRozan was not seen as the best player on the Raptors. That's like saying Parker was seen as better than Ginobili because of greater usage/ppg.

- He had limited value to the point where the off season prior, they offered him for Wiggins' albatross and were turned down. They'd been shopping him for 2 years before they found a sucker, who not only took him, but gave them a superstar, elite role player, cash and a Curry/Durant injury away from a championship.

- I hope he's traded for a myriad of reasons, one of which is to enlighten you and many Spurs fans on how limited his value is.



That's exactly what was going to happen. Most people fail to realize that DeRozan was going to be a spur even if they kept Kawhi. He was the other All Star that Pop promised him that he would acquire to make the team better. The problem here is that you have people on this site that ignore logic and like to twist things to suit some weird view they have of the events that occurred.

Based on what? All speculation. I doubt they'd have taken on a third major salary and a player who can only play on ball, which would have forced Scumbag and Aldridge into more off ball roles (I'm sure that would have gone over well with them).

They may have tried (I suspect they would have), but probably failed. My guess is Walker would have been the target.



Spurs youngsters were mostly healthy? What color is the sky on your world? DJ missed an entire season with an ACL tear, and Lonnie’s rookie year was derailed by meniscus damage, being limited to a score of games in Austin. Derrick has had repeated foot problems, causing him to miss time every season.

Poor reading comprehension 101: I said last season, the Spurs had among the most continuity and best health in the league and they still sucked.

All you apologists are so eager to criticize that you don't even take the time to read/comprehend what I actually said.

[Dejounte]

Agree on tanking. I think it only makes sense for the last game of the year, and it changes a draft pick trade exception. The Warriors tanking for Harrison Barnes made some sense at the time. Harrison Barnes is a good argument for not tanking.

I never liked Hachimura, but that's because he looked bad on paper, unlike teammate Thybulle. Hachimura looked great on film.

When I said on paper for Hachi, I meant more his measurements-- they were a decent for a SF. But I guess on film, people busted their nut because he shot the mid-range J kinda like Nephew...ignoring the fact that he was wildly inefficient. People were desperate to replace Kawhi (still are) and will go gaga over any player that has any semblance to him. Rui is a garbage man's Kawhi.

[Chinook]

You've admitted you don't really follow the league much outside of the Spurs, so take it from someone who does: The two teams had similar metrics, only the Kings best player/young talents missed significant amount of time, while the Spurs were mostly healthy. The Trail Blazers also had significant injuries. By the way, you brought up the Kings.

They don't really have similar metrics outside of both missing the playoffs though. I feel bad even having to defend this point, because it's clear you're not looking at anything else but want to come off like you do. The Spurs were a good offense and bad defense. The Kings were a bad offense and mediocre defense. The Spurs played bad defenders like Forbes and Beli and could easily improve defensively if they just didn't play those guys. The Kings don't have the same recourse because guys like Fox, Hield and Barnes are their bad defenders. They're going to be stuck playing mediocre defense unless they get designated defenders, and besides Fox, they don't expect to be led by any young players. I haven't given up on Bagley, but he was arguably a net-negative coming off a missed season. But there's no reason to see the Kings coming out of dregs because their holes are fundamental, not situational.


So now reports on the Spurs are credible if they support your argument. I wasn't even talking about them, just in general Gilgeous-Alexander was projected to go in the range he did.

Are you confusing me with someone else? When did I say the reports weren't credible before? Hindsight is arguing that the Spurs would've taken him, not that he was going to go at that pick. Seeing as the guy the Spurs picked and were rumored to want was also there, it stands to reason to believe the Spurs would not have passed on him to pick SGA.


DeRozan has less value than even that version of Scumbag did and I don't recall hearing of teams calling the Spurs about him immediately. No, the Raptors did that because the Spurs allowed them to. Sans Anunoby, they should have drawn the line at Gasol instead of gifting them Green.

It was a thing that other teams wanted DeRozan. But I'm not going to keep rehashing the Leonard trade with you. You want to show you're the maddest person about it. Fine. I think it's more constructive to believe that everyone is basically rational and trying to act for their interests though. Pop/Wright probably had good reasons for liking Toronto's package beyond them just being dumb or gullible. Doesn't mean I liked the deal. You of all people should know I didn't.


I'm not thinking anything genius,

I know.


Like I said, Johnson becoming a significant piece doesn't absolve them in the same way (Marc) Gasol didn't absolve the Grizzlies gifting the Lakers his brother because of the unlikelihood of landing such a piece at that stage of the draft. That's revisionist history and luck more than anything. They never had a chance to go for it. The fact that you thought this team could contend is bizarre.

I mean, it does though? Like yeah, a bad deal is a bad deal, but if the idea is that they should've tanked to get good young players instead of trying to compete, and they managed to try to compete and still got good young players, it does provide counter evidence. I don't love how they played the 2019 draft, but I also don't think the last couple of years clearly show that they would've been in a better position had they not taken that deal. I like fanficking off-seasons too, and I do think there were paths to having a better roster. But I also think they had and have paths to building a better win-now roster. That doesn't mean one scenario was the better choice.

[Chinook]

- DeRozan was not seen as the best player on the Raptors.

Yeah he was. He wasn't the best player on the Raptors, but that was his rep.


- He had limited value to the point where the off season prior, they offered him for Wiggins' albatross and were turned down. They'd been shopping him for 2 years before they found a sucker, who not only took him, but gave them a superstar, elite role player, cash and a Curry/Durant injury away from a championship.

The Wolves also balked at trading Wiggins for Butler, so I wouldn't take that as some sign of DeRozan having bad value. Remember that Minny literally just maxed the dude that year, so it's not like they didn't like him.


- I hope he's traded for a myriad of reasons, one of which is to enlighten you and many Spurs fans on how limited his value is.

Why would he be traded not no value though? How does that help SA? Even if he's traded for a paltry return like a late-first from LAL, that doesn't say anything against his value two years ago. That's a decent return from an expiring player to whom you're doing a favor. No one is arguing DeMar is going to get a high pick or even that he would've gotten one then. But he would've definitely garnered a lottery pick in 2018, to the point that the Spurs probably would not have been able to trade for DeRozan with the packages from the other teams, though maybe the Saric/Cov/10 package would've worked if it were truly on the table.

[TD 21]

They don't really have similar metrics outside of both missing the playoffs though. I feel bad even having to defend this point, because it's clear you're not looking at anything else but want to come off like you do. The Spurs were a good offense and bad defense. The Kings were a bad offense and mediocre defense. The Spurs played bad defenders like Forbes and Beli and could easily improve defensively if they just didn't play those guys. The Kings don't have the same recourse because guys like Fox, Hield and Barnes are their bad defenders. They're going to be stuck playing mediocre defense unless they get designated defenders, and besides Fox, they don't expect to be led by any young players. I haven't given up on Bagley, but he was arguably a net-negative coming off a missed season. But there's no reason to see the Kings coming out of dregs because their holes are fundamental, not situational.



Are you confusing me with someone else? When did I say the reports weren't credible before? Hindsight is arguing that the Spurs would've taken him, not that he was going to go at that pick. Seeing as the guy the Spurs picked and were rumored to want was also there, it stands to reason to believe the Spurs would not have passed on him to pick SGA.



It was a thing that other teams wanted DeRozan. But I'm not going to keep rehashing the Leonard trade with you. You want to show you're the maddest person about it. Fine. I think it's more constructive to believe that everyone is basically rational and trying to act for their interests though. Pop/Wright probably had good reasons for liking Toronto's package beyond them just being dumb or gullible. Doesn't mean I liked the deal. You of all people should know I didn't.



I know.



I mean, it does though? Like yeah, a bad deal is a bad deal, but if the idea is that they should've tanked to get good young players instead of trying to compete, and they managed to try to compete and still got good young players, it does provide counter evidence. I don't love how they played the 2019 draft, but I also don't think the last couple of years clearly show that they would've been in a better position had they not taken that deal. I like fanficking off-seasons too, and I do think there were paths to having a better roster. But I also think they had and have paths to building a better win-now roster. That doesn't mean one scenario was the better choice.

They do. Spurs were 17th in SRS, Kings 21st (.73 differential), 33-38 in expected w-l vs 31-41, 18th in MOV vs 21st (.93 differential) and again, they were far more decimated by injury. As usual, it's clear that you're just being a homer and pretending to know more about the league than you actually do and now you're again moving the goal posts by talking about the future. I'm talking about last season to right now.

I've seen you talk about taking reports on the Spurs with a grain a salt (which is generally true). Well, that wasn't the hindsight I was talking about.

Was it "a thing"? You want to show that you're the smartest guy in the room by attempting to talk down to people without actually knowing what you're talking about.

Compete for what? No, it doesn't absolve them because your should judge a trade based on the process, not the result. Only a casual, homer, apologists or some combination there of could attempt to defend that trade.



Yeah he was. He wasn't the best player on the Raptors, but that was his rep.



The Wolves also balked at trading Wiggins for Butler, so I wouldn't take that as some sign of DeRozan having bad value. Remember that Minny literally just maxed the dude that year, so it's not like they didn't like him.



Why would he be traded not no value though? How does that help SA? Even if he's traded for a paltry return like a late-first from LAL, that doesn't say anything against his value two years ago. That's a decent return from an expiring player to whom you're doing a favor. No one is arguing DeMar is going to get a high pick or even that he would've gotten one then. But he would've definitely garnered a lottery pick in 2018, to the point that the Spurs probably would not have been able to trade for DeRozan with the packages from the other teams, though maybe the Saric/Cov/10 package would've worked if it were truly on the table.

Only to casuals.

The difference was, that was back when they were still holding out hope for Wiggins. Some of the most connected people in the industry have said DeRozan has little value and it's obvious to anyone who really follows this, but you know better.

Because he could leave for nothing in a year and no, he wouldn't have garnered a lottery pick in '18 just like Aldridge, a better player, couldn't garner a top 10 pick in '17.

[Dejounte]

"You want to show that you're the smartest guy in the room by attempting to talk down to people without actually knowing what you're talking about."

Proceeds to call anyone who disagrees with him a homer, a casual, an apologist...

Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557), you hit the nail on the head when you said this:

"I feel bad even having to defend this point, because it's clear you're not looking at anything else but want to come off like you do. "

No one is as arrogant as this douchebag. He is the definition of someone who thinks he's smarter than he actually is.

[jjktkk]

So besides the most recent evidence that says they are, they're somehow not. Got it.

DeRozan has limited value. With picks, they're like lottery tickets. Every rumored offer was better and Gilgeous-Alexander wasn't hindsight (granted, who knows who they'd have picked, but the reality is they easily could have ended up with him or Porter Jr.).

Nice try. Pretending the ensuing games would have played out exactly how they did had they closed out the 76ers game is absurd. Not sure why you keep bringing up the past in regards to Spurs-Kings. I'm talking right now.

I was? They could have gotten a blue chipper without DeRozan. The could have manipulated the past 1-2 drafts and had better youth than they currently do. And moving from 11 to 6-7 isn't "adding picks", it's just getting a better one.




Murray isn't and there's no proof that he's generating much trade interest. He also wasn't supposed to be a 29th pick.

They did. That series was predictably for the taking and they squandered it, then melted down at the finish (granted, it was unlikely they could pull it off at that point, but still). Not comparing Spurs-Kings pasts.

No, trying to find a centerpiece is best for the franchise and the odds increase by picking higher. The problem is, they haven't bottomed out. They're fighting it because their ego is more important.




You both misquoted me and took what you were apparently trying to quote out of context. And superstars/stars not wanting to play here doesn't excuse their bad decisions.

You're right there's no excuse for bad decisions. But considering where they perennially pick in the 1st round, and their inability to lure prime free agents to small market San Antonio, the Spurs have done well since the big 3 retired and Leonard left.

[jjktkk]

"You want to show that you're the smartest guy in the room by attempting to talk down to people without actually knowing what you're talking about."

Proceeds to call anyone who disagrees with him a homer, a casual, an apologist...

Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557), you hit the nail on the head when you said this:

"I feel bad even having to defend this point, because it's clear you're not looking at anything else but want to come off like you do. "

No one is as arrogant as this douchebag. He is the definition of someone who thinks he's smarter than he actually is.

Well you do gotta give @TD 21 credit. He's consistently has had bad takes on here for years. :lol

[Chinook]

They do. Spurs were 17th in SRS, Kings 21st (.73 differential), 33-38 in expected w-l vs 31-41, 18th in MOV vs 21st (.93 differential) and again, they were far more decimated by injury. As usual, it's clear that you're just being a homer and pretending to know more about the league than you actually do and now you're again moving the goal posts by talking about the future. I'm talking about last season to right now.

Wait, I thought I was the person who brought up the Kings. You were comfortable to go to that excuse earlier. Why do you think you get to set the scope of what I meant, or did you really think I didn't realize the Kings were one spot behind the Spurs in the draft when I made that comment? I'm glad you finally started to look up stuff on BBR, but that doesn't make them similar anymore than two players having the same PER and WS/48 would. When you look at who their best players are and what their weaknesses are, they're very different. What do you think SAC's path to the playoffs is?


I've seen you talk about taking reports on the Spurs with a grain a salt (which is generally true). Well, that wasn't the hindsight I was talking about.

And I was the one who said hindsight, and specifically talking about how SA would've been in a better position trading DMDR for a late-lotto pick relies on assuming they would'nt've taken Walker anyway. We don't know for sure, but the reports suggest that they wanted Lonnie in the top 10.


Was it "a thing"?

Yep.


Compete for what? No, it doesn't absolve them because your should judge a trade based on the process, not the result. Only a casual, homer, apologists or some combination there of could attempt to defend that trade.

It's clear your view of the process is skewed, since you keep worrying about Kawhi winning a title like that should've been a concern for the team. They wanted to compete and not tank. They got another playoff run, got close to another and may yet get one more while DMDR is under contract. That was their goal, and that's what they got. You personally think they should've packed up and planned for the future. That would've been your goal in a trade. We get that. But their "process" doesn't depend on whether they take your plan, but how well they execute theirs.

Ultimately, I don't think they regret their DeRozan trade, and that's in no small part because they got two guys who may well be long-term starters on the team soon and still managed to grab a lotto pick without dumping their roster. It gives them the option to keep pushing for a playoff spot and try to go into next summer luring a free agent to compliment/replace one of their big-money players, or they can trade off those guys now, get late picks and look to rebuild with their natural picks and cap space. Or they can do something more extreme or in between. They have good players on expiring deals and very little long-term money, that's about as flexible as it gets.


Only to casuals.

The difference was, that was back when they were still holding out hope for Wiggins. Some of the most connected people in the industry have said DeRozan has little value and it's obvious to anyone who really follows this, but you know better.

The Butler trade was the same year as your rumored DeRozan rejection, so it makes sense that they probably didn't think of Wiggins as untouchable in one deal but trash in the other.

And this "all the smart people (like me) knew the truth" line is irrelevant. Obviously smart Raptors GM Ujuri wasn't "smart" enough to know that Wiggins would've been worse than DeRozan in every way, and "smart" Wolves GM Thibs didn't know he should've taken a chance to move Wiggins and run AND "smart" Bulls GM Paxton didn't know how lucky he was that no one insisted he take on that awful contract.

Basically no. A lot of people DID look at the stats and say Lowry was the best player. -- that's true. That was an opinion at the time. But that wasn't the consensus among front-office people, just like it wasn't the consensus that Wiggins was hot doodoo, even though those same stats folks also believed that. Not all GMs are perfect actors and go by pure stats. You obviously know that since you've talked about the Spurs "falling for it", but they're far from the only team that makes sketchy moves from a stats perspective. Both the Russell and Wiggins trades were bad value stats-wise.


Because he could leave for nothing in a year and no, he wouldn't have garnered a lottery pick in '18 just like Aldridge, a better player, couldn't garner a top 10 pick in '17.

Aldridge IS a better player, but you'd be surprised how many folks disagree with that, including a lot of stat heads. Anyway, if DeRozan is traded for no value, why trade him? If he's leaving for nothing and is traded for nothing, why not just keep him? It's clear that PATFO simply doesn't agree with you that trying to make the playoffs is valueless. They'd much prefer that and letting DMDR walk than getting nothing and moving them early. I don't think I have to defend that, since it's the reason we all agree they did the DMDR trade in the first place.

Anyway, it doesn't make sense to argue the Spurs couldn't get a top-10 pick for Aldridge in 2017. That might be true and all, but they weren't actually trying to get a pick -- they were trying to get Kyrie Irving. So far as I could tell, their proposed package was Murray, Green and Josh Jackson. The issue is that they didn't have Jackson. So they tried to trade Aldridge in an effort to get him. Phoenix balked, though in retrospect, they should've taken the deal. They weren't actually trying to turn him into pieces or a young player, since it's clear Leonard was demanding the team upgrade their talent. That's why you had the Gasol and Mills deals, which were the result of Leonard's discontent with the roster, not the catalyst for it.

Anyways, meh, man. This conversation is getting long, and I don't want it to bog down this thread. If you have specific points you want me to respond to, point them out in a response. Otherwise, I'll just let the rest flow through.

[TD 21]

Proceeds to call anyone who disagrees with him a homer, a casual, an apologist...

No one is as arrogant as this douchebag. He is the definition of someone who thinks he's smarter than he actually is.

Off your meds again I see.

Proceeds to exaggerate because he has some personal problem with me for disagreeing with his bizarre/obsessive takes on random draft prospects. :cry

You take this way too seriously. Despite his few unnecessary shots that I eventually returned serve on, this is a debate, not an argument.


the Spurs have done well since the big 3 retired and Leonard left.

:lmao


Well you do gotta give @TD 21 credit. He's consistently has had bad takes on here for years. :lol

Yet idiots like you and the lunatic up above constantly flock to them moments after I post. :wakeup



Wait, I thought I was the person who brought up the Kings. You were comfortable to go to that excuse earlier. Why do you think you get to set the scope of what I meant. When you look at who their best players are and what their weaknesses are, they're very different. What do you think SAC's path to the playoffs is?

I don't even know what you're attempting to say here, but I clearly didn't mean similar in the sense of the specifics of the roster, but in a general sense and I'd have thought you'd know by now that I don't speak on anything without being informed beforehand. Kings path to playoffs: good core health, crunch time fortune, Fox/Bagley take the next step, re-sign Bogdanovic, trade Hield for Horford++ . . . still likely to miss though. :lol


SA would've been in a better position trading DMDR for a late-lotto pick

The Celtics report was 3-4 future 1sts.


Yep.

Once again doing what you incorrectly accuse me of: Spouting things as fact with no evidence.


It's clear your view of the process is skewed, since you keep worrying about Kawhi winning a title like that should've been a concern for the team. They wanted to compete and not tank. They got another playoff run, got close to another and may yet get one more while DMDR is under contract. That was their goal, and that's what they got. You personally think they should've packed up and planned for the future. That would've been your goal in a trade. We get that. But their "process" doesn't depend on whether they take your plan, but how well they execute theirs.

that's about as flexible as it gets.

Maybe you'll comprehend this the third time: Once they couldn't get anything resembling commensurate value, limiting his path to a championship absolutely should have factored into the equation. They didn't get a playoff run, they got a playoff series barely. Their goal was to maintain their streak/reputation because the senile genius couldn't put his ego to the side and do what was best for his franchise.

Having an abundance of picks would have created more flexibility than archaic veterans that have limited value. Plus, the payroll would have been lower sooner.


And this "all the smart people (like me) knew the truth" line is irrelevant..

Basically no. A lot of people DID look at the stats and say Lowry was the best player. -- that's true. That was an opinion at the time. But that wasn't the consensus among front-office people, just like it wasn't the consensus that Wiggins was hot doodoo, even though those same stats folks also believed that.

Who said any of these people were smart? DeRozan for Wiggins wouldn't have been about Wiggins being good, it would have been about his being 6 years younger. Shady Ujiri has been trying to re-build since he got back their, only to fall ass backwards into success at every turn since trading Gay.

And you'd know that how? As if you're in contact with front offices. What a ridiculous comment.


Aldridge IS a better player, but you'd be surprised how many folks disagree with that, including a lot of stat heads. Anyway, if DeRozan is traded for no value, why trade him?

Anyway, it doesn't make sense to argue the Spurs couldn't get a top-10 pick for Aldridge in 2017. That might be true and all, but they weren't actually trying to get a pick -- they were trying to get Kyrie Irving.

I know but that's because of the bias against bigs. Again, I said limited value, not no value. As in possibly utilizing him + 11 to jump 4-5 spots in the draft.

Doesn't matter that Aldridge was an attempt at being a vehicle to something else, the point remains he couldn't fetch a top 10 pick.

[Chinook]

I don't even know what you're attempting to say here, but I clearly didn't mean similar in the sense of the specifics of the roster, but in a general sense and I'd have thought you'd know by now that I don't speak on anything without being informed beforehand. Kings path to playoffs: good core health, crunch time fortune, Fox/Bagley take the next step, re-sign Bogdanovic, trade Hield for Horford++ . . . still likely to miss though. :lol

So I said "The Spurs are not the Kings". At that point it's my claim to explain and yours to refute. So when I tell you things about their history, roster and path to success, that's not me "moving goal posts" from your talk about record. It's me actually talking about what I mean. Even to this point, your arguments for them being the same are superficial. They're pretty much from the team pages of BBR. Certainly not completely brainless, but it's weird to bring that up while also chastising me for not following other teams. Like I can and do look at those types of stats for other teams. If I simply meant that they didn't have the same record or SRS or whatever, then I could've said that. I know you have more faith in me than to assume I would not have mean something that shallow.


The Celtics report was 3-4 future 1sts.

I'll have to look, but I think the SAC first and Memphis first were held out. But even if that isn't the case, you're looking at 14, 20 and 22 from last year and 14 from this year as being the best-case scenario. That would've given the Spurs four firsts last year, with their own pick probably being the best since they would've probably missed the playoffs comfortably without DMDR. Even if they were rebuilding, that's a lot picks to add to a roster at once. Maybe they could've consolidated them, but remember that Boston didn't do that -- in fact, they traded 20 for 24 and 33, then they traded 24 to Phoenix for 30 this year. So basically, the Boston picks turned into Langford, Williams and Edwards, along with 14 and 30 in this upcoming draft. Those three guys were three of Boston's four worst player in terms of WS/48, and three of five in terms of BPM.

Obviously their careers aren't set in stone, and there's no reason to assume the Spurs would've done the draft the same way. Having two additional firsts in what I think is a decent draft isn't nothing. But that highlights the issue that plagues/bogs down most tanking teams. If you play the game for maximal future value, you end up with a bunch of meh or average young players that you're reluctant to get rid of because you don't know which of them are worth holding onto. Having six first-rounders in two years is just too much. Boston has had to piss away picks for multiple years now. Unless you're getting the right picks back, I don't think the value is there.


Maybe you'll comprehend this the third time: Once they couldn't get anything resembling commensurate value, limiting his path to a championship absolutely should have factored into the equation.

No. You're just wrong. There's nothing complicated about your view. We all understand it. It's just wrong, and I would hate to hear PATFO thought anything like that. It's bad for value; it's bad for player relations.


Having an abundance of picks would have created more flexibility than archaic veterans that have limited value. Plus, the payroll would have been lower sooner.

Not really though. In the NBA, cap space is only one kind of flexibility, and not even the best necessarily due to matching rules. Would I rather have cap space than DMDR and LMA and even Gay/Mills? No. That space would have almost no value right now. Cap space next year would have value, but they'll have that anyway. In the meantime, they still get to trade guys or try to compete. That's more options than simply looking to sell picks and having to cut young players because you simply have too many.


Who said any of these people were smart? DeRozan for Wiggins wouldn't have been about Wiggins being good, it would have been about his being 6 years younger. Shady Ujiri has been trying to re-build since he got back their, only to fall ass backwards into success at every turn since trading Gay.

No matter how bad you think DeRozan is, Wiggins is worse. That would've been a franchise-killing move, especially straight-up as you present it. The need to mention age just underscores why rebuilding for rebuilding's sake is fool-hardy. Ujuri would've been fired had he done that deal, yet he obviously didn't think that at the time. That's because Wiggins' value was way higher than you suggest. It's possible that if this Leonard mess had happened a year earlier, the Spurs would've been interested in Wiggins too.


I know but that's because of the bias against bigs. Again, I said limited value, not no value. As in possibly utilizing him + 11 to jump 4-5 spots in the draft.

And if that's his value, that's fine. That wouldn't make me rethink his value two years ago. The value to jump up four spots in the lottery is still a solid first's worth. That's as an expiring and minus any sense of shine. Not bad.'


Doesn't matter that Aldridge was an attempt at being a vehicle to something else, the point remains he couldn't fetch a top 10 pick

You missed the point of what I said. LMA wasn't being dangled for "a pick". Once Jackson went off the board, we don't have a reason to believe the Spurs were still trying to trade him. Maybe he would've garnered a top-10 pick, maybe not. But we don't know enough to say he couldn't get anything less than a top-four pick.

Also, LMA was expiring that year. He signed his extension the following pre-season. Presenting it like he and 18 DeRozan were in the same situation is faulty.

[Dverde]

Many words. So many words. Can’t do it.

[Dejounte]

Many words. So many words. Can’t do it.

Lmao no one is as less aware of himself as this asshole.

[EasyMoney]

Only on this forum would people actually think Wiggins is a good take. Sure, for 3 draft picks. But then again. Some thought demar for Nicholas fucking batum would be a good trade

[Collins21]

Only on this forum would people actually think Wiggins is a good take. Sure, for 3 draft picks. But then again. Some thought demar for Nicholas fucking batum would be a good trade

Yeah the Batum for DeRozan trade was disgusting but it's not limited to this forum. I believe some of thee same posters post the same garbage on Twitter.

[exstatic]

Only on this forum would people actually think Wiggins is a good take. Sure, for 3 draft picks. But then again. Some thought demar for Nicholas fucking batum would be a good trade

Wiggins is a classic case of a scenario played out many times: cap space rental. I hate Wiggins, and I hate his game. What I wouldn’t hate would be taking Wiggins and #2 in return for LMA, and keeping #11. I didn’t like the idea at first, but it’s growing on me. Year one would be a wash, salary wise or nearly so. Year two is a nut punch, but it’s what you’re being paid for. Year three is an ending contract, and you may even be able to flip him for an additional asset.

The Spurs would only do this if they felt there was a player available at #2 that they could develop into a franchise player.

[TD 21]

At that point it's my claim to explain and yours to refute. So when I tell you things about their history, roster and path to success, that's not me "moving goal posts" from your talk about record. It's me actually talking about what I mean.

Pretty sure you knew what I meant, ignored it and pretended I knew nothing about the Kings.



I'll have to look, but I think the SAC first and Memphis first were held out. But even if that isn't the case, you're looking at 14, 20 and 22 from last year and 14 from this year as being the best-case scenario. That would've given the Spurs four firsts last year, with their own pick probably being the best since they would've probably missed the playoffs comfortably without DMDR.

But that highlights the issue that plagues/bogs down most tanking teams. If you play the game for maximal future value, you end up with a bunch of meh or average young players that you're reluctant to get rid of because you don't know which of them are worth holding onto. Having six first-rounders in two years is just too much. Boston has had to piss away picks for multiple years now. Unless you're getting the right picks back, I don't think the value is there.

Yeah, most of the picks ended up worse than projections, but still. If you have an abundance of picks, you have options. Obviously, they'd have had to consolidate.

Sure, playing that game often doesn't turn out as good as it seems it might and at some point you've got to get off that treadmill, but given the dire situation the Spurs were in, it still beat the alternative.



No. You're just wrong. There's nothing complicated about your view. We all understand it. It's just wrong, and I would hate to hear PATFO thought anything like that. It's bad for value; it's bad for player relations.

:lmao How can I be wrong about something subjective? Obviously you don't broadcast it, but had they sent him to the Celtics/76ers, the perception wouldn't have been that they tried to do him wrong since they were thought of as contenders too.



Not really though. In the NBA, cap space is only one kind of flexibility, and not even the best necessarily due to matching rules. Would I rather have cap space than DMDR and LMA and even Gay/Mills? No. That space would have almost no value right now. Cap space next year would have value, but they'll have that anyway. In the meantime, they still get to trade guys or try to compete. That's more options than simply looking to sell picks and having to cut young players because you simply have too many.

Cap space can be utilized as a dumping ground for dead money to acquire more picks. They should have been in asset acquisition mode instead of being scared of the unknown and prioritizing concrete mediocrity.



The need to mention age just underscores why rebuilding for rebuilding's sake is fool-hardy.

I never said anything about "re-building for re-building's sake". A team like those Raptors or current Trail Blazers are better off staying the course and tweaking. A team in the Spurs situation was not.



LMA wasn't being dangled for "a pick". Once Jackson went off the board, we don't have a reason to believe the Spurs were still trying to trade him. Maybe he would've garnered a top-10 pick, maybe not.

Presenting it like he and 18 DeRozan were in the same situation is faulty.

It's unclear. All we heard was he was shopped for a top 10 pick, the rest is your interpretation. They may have traded him for it period even if they couldn't re-route it for immediately help, taken a step back and bided their time until they could find something worthwhile to pull the trigger on. In the NBA, the next unhappy superstar/star is always right around the corner.

DeRozan was viewed as part albatross/salary dump.

[tbdog]

Wiggins is a classic case of a scenario played out many times: cap space rental. I hate Wiggins, and I hate his game. What I wouldn’t hate would be taking Wiggins and #2 in return for LMA, and keeping #11. I didn’t like the idea at first, but it’s growing on me. Year one would be a wash, salary wise or nearly so. Year two is a nut punch, but it’s what you’re being paid for. Year three is an ending contract, and you may even be able to flip him for an additional asset.

The Spurs would only do this if they felt there was a player available at #2 that they could develop into a franchise player.

Spurs would be paying 40m p/y to develop number 2 into something franchise worthy. It would better be a home run if Spurs go down this road.

[bluebellmaniac]

Spurs would be paying 40m p/y to develop number 2 into something franchise worthy. It would better be a home run if Spurs go down this road.

It's a shot at having something great. Or you settle for mediocre. What would you rather have?

[exstatic]

Spurs would be paying 40m p/y to develop number 2 into something franchise worthy. It would better be a home run if Spurs go down this road.

Like I said, year one is already a sunk cost. We’d be paying LMA anyway. The price of #2 is also fixed.

What would be funny would be if the NYK struck out again in FA, and actually gave us something for Wiggins. They’re pretty desperate for someone to market.

[BackHome]

I am all in for tanking but with class. Lol

[tbdog]

It's a shot at having something great. Or you settle for mediocre. What would you rather have?

It's a weak draft. Plus you have to play Wiggins to improve his trade value down the line. That will eat into our youth movement.

It would only happen if Spurs see something special in number 2, whoever it is. 40mil special. Also there is plenty between something special and mediocre. Spurs trade LMA to Wiggins + 2, they go mediocre to bad. What if we already have something special in our team and eating 40 mil of cap space has a longer negative impact?

[buttsR4rebounding]

You keep saying Wiggins will cost $40 million/year. His salary is 29, 31, 33 over the next 3 years.

[Degoat]

We arent getting Wiggins or the #2 pick guys lol problem is tho, no matter if you like or dislike them, were most likely gonna lose Demar and Aldridge for nothing next year.

[tbdog]

You keep saying Wiggins will cost $40 million/year. His salary is 29, 31, 33 over the next 3 years.

Because number 2 will cost you 8mil first year with rises. If Wiggins isn't in your plans, then you are paying 40 mil for number 2. And you are doing that in the hopes he is as good as LMA, in which your trading in the first place.

[cd021]

Because number 2 will cost you 8mil first year with rises. If Wiggins isn't in your plans, then you are paying 40 mil for number 2. And you are doing that in the hopes he is as good as LMA, in which your trading in the first place.

-I don't know if I agree with that logic; If say the Spurs were to trade for the number 2 pick-- and take on Wiggins for--then that means there is a player that they covet enough to eat one of the worst contracts in the NBA.

That also means that they probably wouldn't mind paying the player that they wanted the rookie scale. Plus the Spurs usually don't miss on picks, so them nailing a pick in a tier higher than than their used to drafting, means that they might be drafting a star.

-Wiggins deal is prohibitive and the fact that the cap isn't likely to increase in the near future, makes it a worse contract. Still the Spurs getting a shot a star--without completely tanking, ahead of a rebuild is going to come with a catch and Wiggins would likely be it.

Also if the Spurs were to ship out LMA and Gay as a part of a deal for Wiggins, then essentially, the Spurs would only be paying Wiggins for two seasons of Wiggins at 31 and 33 and he'd be a big expiring in his final season.

[Ocotillo]

Regarding the potential GSW deal, it is a crap shoot but at the end of the day, to compete for a ring, you have to have a superstar on the team. We have young guys that may or may not become solid players in the league. Keldon may surprise us and develop into something really special but while what we have seen so far shows some reason for hope, it is a limited sample size.

So, if the PATFO really thinks there is someone who can be developed into a superstar, then you roll the dice and eat Wiggins deal if GSW is willing. Like has been said earlier, year one is sunk cost, year two is the cap drain and year three can be a potential deal since it will be an expiring. tbdog makes a good point that Wiggins could impede other young guy's progress due to eating into their playing time.

Who knows though, Wiggins has a skill set and maybe the light goes on in the next year or two. He is an NBA player, he just is overpaid for the type of NBA player he is. At the end of the day, I think that is why you can usually find a team willing to take an overpaid player like Wiggins is they are really wishing it all comes together and the player finally reaches that potential.

I am greedy though, if a deal were to be made, I don't want to turn loose of 11.

[talkspurs]

People keep wanting to tank next year to get a good pick when we could have a good pick this year. I know this draft is not as good as next year but that does not mean players cannot be as good. Who knows what next years draft and season will look like. By us going young we could do better then this year. If that is the case we would probably end up with a worse pick. Even with a slightly better spot say 7 that does not get us a much better player and probably not more certain star then the 2nd pick in this draft. Yes we would have slightly better odds if we got up to 7 but there is no saying we would get higher then 7 as it is still a lottery. People act just because you tank you will get a top 2 pick. We would not be the only team tanking so who knows where we would end up.
People act like wiggins is a 40yo forbs on his contract. He is about a half year younger then white and about a yr and a half older then DJM. He is the same age as our leading core and not an old player. Some will mention that he has been in the league longer which is true but he did not get the maturation process in college that white did. He can still grow as a player. Yes his upside is not as much as a player coming out int he draft or even as much as DJM but he does still have some.
As some have mentioned his first year is sunk cost as we would be paying LA anyway. His second and third year is where we eat the contract but we are not eating the whole thing. What would he get paid if he was a FA. My guess would be about 15 mil a year. how did I get that number. His PER is about the same as white and he is the same age. This has been rumored the deal Spurs want to offer white. Some people say this is to low for white. This putting his salary at 15 mil a year I think is fare. This means we are only eating about 15 mil a year to have a top pick in the draft. This also means that Wiggins does not improve which he did some last year.
This is why I would do the LMA for Wiggins and #2. We get a bad contract but a shot at a good player. BTW if we could convince boston to trade 2 picks for our 11 that would help as well since we would not need to pick high anymore.

[TD 21]

Still don't know why anyone would think the Spurs would have a shot to pull this off without including 11. Even if they would be dumping a certified albatross in the process, the Warriors aren't literally trading from 2 to of the 1st round for a 35 year old, on an expiring contract.

As much as I despise Wiggins as a player, I can actually see it for the Spurs: A cultural fit, true "SF", still youngish and with Aldridge/DeRozan out the door, a proven (if incredibly inefficient) scorer and freak athlete that's easy to sell to casuals.

[gambit1990]

the spurs are much more desperate the warriors TBQH.