Official 2022 NBA Draft thread

[duncan2150]

I like him, think he’ll be a good rim running big. Just think 9 is to early for him and he won’t make it to our 20 pick

+1

[The Truth #6]

Wendell Moore. Seems like a Spurs player. Faced some adversity. Does many things well. Was a 5 star recruit that was then overlooked. I could see him with the 20th pick. Would be another shooting guard playing small forward, however. Anyone have strong thoughts about him?

[exstatic]

Wendell Moore. Seems like a Spurs player. Faced some adversity. Does many things well. Was a 5 star recruit that was then overlooked. I could see him with the 20th pick. Would be another shooting guard playing small forward, however. Anyone have strong thoughts about him?

His defensive profile looks weak.

[Mr. Body]

I mentioned Moore somewhere a little while ago. Defense is one thing he's good at, actually, and he might have room to grow even as a junior. He improved every year. He's more of a glue guy, potential 3 & D, and may be getting a bit slept on compared to his teammates (Banchero, Griffin, Williams). He might be a value pick in the 20s.

[rascal]

I mentioned Moore somewhere a little while ago. Defense is one thing he's good at, actually, and he might have room to grow even as a junior. He improved every year. He's more of a glue guy, potential 3 & D, and may be getting a bit slept on compared to his teammates (Banchero, Griffin, Williams). He might be a value pick in the 20s.

With so many future first round and lottery NBA picks on Duke why didn't they win the tournament?

I think all the Duke players are overrated where they are expected to go in the draft except for Banchero and I don't think Moore is all that good as the other three are better and will get drafted higher.

[Mr. Body]

With so many future first round and lottery NBA picks on Duke why didn't they win the tournament?

I think all the Duke players are overrated where they are expected to go in the draft except for Banchero and I don't think Moore is all that good as the other three are better and will get drafted higher.

Because Coach K is overrated as fuck. He once had Carlos Boozer, Jayson Williams, and Mike Dunleavy and didn't win the championship. The only time Calipari won the championship was during the NBA lockout, forcing players like Kidd-Gilchrist and Anthony Davis to stay. He double dipped with blue chips and stumbled into a trophy. Why didn't Stephen Curry win a championship at Davidson? Why didn't Tim Duncan win a championship at Wake Forest? By your logic Coach Cal is the worst coach of all time because he's placed dozens of players in the first round and only has won one time.

[mo7888]

Wendell Moore. Seems like a Spurs player. Faced some adversity. Does many things well. Was a 5 star recruit that was then overlooked. I could see him with the 20th pick. Would be another shooting guard playing small forward, however. Anyone have strong thoughts about him?

I could see him being in the mix in the early 20's if we don't package the picks to more up. I've got him 23rd overall but, I do like his fit here if we make a couple moves..

[Mr. Body]

I could see him being in the mix in the early 20's if we don't package the picks to more up. I've got him 23rd overall but, I do like his fit here if we make a couple moves..

I kind of want to come out of the draft with a PF, a C prospect, and a shooting guard wing. That's the order I prioritize them. Not sold on Moore by any means, but he'd be in the mix.

[rascal]

Because Coach K is overrated as fuck. He once had Carlos Boozer, Jayson Williams, and Mike Dunleavy and didn't win the championship. The only time Calipari won the championship was during the NBA lockout, forcing players like Kidd-Gilchrist and Anthony Davis to stay. He double dipped with blue chips and stumbled into a trophy. Why didn't Stephen Curry win a championship at Davidson? Why didn't Tim Duncan win a championship at Wake Forest? By your logic Coach Cal is the worst coach of all time because he's placed dozens of players in the first round and only has won one time.

Duncan didn't have help on his team. With so called four top players if you include Wendell Moore you would think Duke would win this year.

[R. DeMurre]

I'd love to see draft combine type numbers on Keegan Murray-- vertical, lane agility, etc-- but being almost a certain lottery pick, he probably won't participate. I've read numerous scouting reports recently guessing that his natural athleticism is less than that of the other top prospects, but I wonder how accurate that is. Early reports on Murray seemed to emphasize his athleticism... I wonder if it's a case of scouting fatigue, since he's been dominating the college game since very early in the season. His stocks numbers are significantly better than Paolo, Jabari, Griffin, or Sochan's... interesting case.

[PhantomDashCam]

I'd love to see draft combine type numbers on Keegan Murray-- vertical, lane agility, etc-- but being almost a certain lottery pick, he probably won't participate. I've read numerous scouting reports recently guessing that his natural athleticism is less than that of the other top prospects, but I wonder how accurate that is. Early reports on Murray seemed to emphasize his athleticism... I wonder if it's a case of scouting fatigue, since he's been dominating the college game since very early in the season. His stocks numbers are significantly better than Paolo, Jabari, Griffin, or Sochan's... interesting case.

I think Keegan is unfortunately at a stage where he can only hinder his stock with more exposure. People are already at a point where they are nitpicking relatively minor flaws in his game due to his age, physical dominance relative to competition etc.

The best thing he can do is participate in as many team and media interviews as possible and release an open gym, work out/shooting video, letting the chips fall where they may. He shouldn’t drop out of the top 10 which I would imagine suits him just fine.

[duncan2150]

Wendell Moore. Seems like a Spurs player. Faced some adversity. Does many things well. Was a 5 star recruit that was then overlooked. I could see him with the 20th pick. Would be another shooting guard playing small forward, however. Anyone have strong thoughts about him?

I did not follow Moore this year but he looked good in some games during March Madness. He could be a good 3 and D in the league imo.

Really good defender, good shooter, playmaker but lack a little bit of athletism and looks inconsistent time to time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2beV1xq9D2s

[CGD]

I did not follow Moore this year but he looked good in some games during March Madness. He could be a good 3 and D in the league imo.

Really good defender, good shooter, playmaker but lack a little bit of athletism and looks inconsistent time to time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2beV1xq9D2s

Perfect candidate in the 20s.

[PhantomDashCam]

I did not follow Moore this year but he looked good in some games during March Madness. He could be a good 3 and D in the league imo.

Really good defender, good shooter, playmaker but lack a little bit of athletism and looks inconsistent time to time.


Who do you like more? Moore or Keels from Duke?
I'm leaning towards Keels for that unusual Defensive profile.

[duncan2150]

Who do you like more? Moore or Keels from Duke?
I'm leaning towards Keels for that unusual Defensive profile.

Not an easy call, they both have a good IQ and they have some good playmaking abilities plus a good shooting touch. They are also inconsistent sometimes and not really athletic.

I have them in the same tier, if i choose one i may go with Keels for the physical attributes ( not pure athletism but strong body) but Moore makes more sense for the Spurs imo ( plus he's a little bit better on D ).

[rascal]

Perfect candidate in the 20s.

I'd rather have Leonard Miller instead of him. More upside with Miller

[ZeusWillJudge]

I'd love to see draft combine type numbers on Keegan Murray-- vertical, lane agility, etc-- but being almost a certain lottery pick, he probably won't participate. I've read numerous scouting reports recently guessing that his natural athleticism is less than that of the other top prospects, but I wonder how accurate that is. Early reports on Murray seemed to emphasize his athleticism... I wonder if it's a case of scouting fatigue, since he's been dominating the college game since very early in the season. His stocks numbers are significantly better than Paolo, Jabari, Griffin, or Sochan's... interesting case.


Murray IS a lottery pick, end of story. I still think he goes at 5, but maybe 6 if someone likes the potential star upside in Sharpe. If he declines to come to the combine it's a yellow flag, but I've seen players get some bad advice from agents and family members bofore. And I've been convinced in the past that some players stay out of the combine when they've gotten hard interest from a team that they really want to play for.

I don't know if Murray will be a star, but he's an NBA player. I wouldn't have any problem with Pop just throwing him into the fire from the beginning, and letting the young guys sort of grow up together. I'm not saying he would be my first choice, and I don't think he'll make it to #9, so I haven't really been thinking about him anymore.

[Mr. Body]

Murray IS a lottery pick, end of story. I still think he goes at 5, but maybe 6 if someone likes the potential star upside in Sharpe. If he declines to come to the combine it's a yellow flag, but I've seen players get some bad advice from agents and family members bofore. And I've been convinced in the past that some players stay out of the combine when they've gotten hard interest from a team that they really want to play for.

I don't know if Murray will be a star, but he's an NBA player. I wouldn't have any problem with Pop just throwing him into the fire from the beginning, and letting the young guys sort of grow up together. I'm not saying he would be my first choice, and I don't think he'll make it to #9, so I haven't really been thinking about him anymore.

Top picks should stay out of the combine. I woudn't regard it as a yellow flag. We've all the tape we need on Murray at this point. I could see his brother going, however.

I said a while back that I could see Keegan Murray drop as a couple players get picked higher unexpectedly and then the following teams stick with who they wanted, like how Paul Pierce dropped. I see a similar game between them. But now I don't think this will happen. I expect him to go top 6 or 7.

[BatManu20]

Was a little underwhelmed by Wendell Moore at Duke this season tbh. Not that he’s not a good player, I just thought he’d have a better season. He sorta deferred a bit to the other big names at Duke this season I think, which is understandable given their roster. Maybe my expectations were a little too high.

He’s a good defender though. The type of player who does the little things that don’t show up in the box score, which I like. Good spot-up 3-pt shooter at 41%. Solid FT shooter at 80%. FG% at 50% is good. Seems to know his role. Wish he was taller, but can’t have it all. Seems like the type of player that would thrive on the Warriors. I bet they’re hoping he slips to them.


7ENi84C57dA

[Mr. Body]

Top picks should stay out of the combine. I woudn't regard it as a yellow flag. We've all the tape we need on Murray at this point. I could see his brother going, however.

I said a while back that I could see Keegan Murray drop as a couple players get picked higher unexpectedly and then the following teams stick with who they wanted, like how Paul Pierce dropped. I see a similar game between them. But now I don't think this will happen. I expect him to go top 6 or 7.

That Paul Pierce draft class is funny to look at (1998).

1. Michael Olowokandi
2. Mike Bibby
3. Raef LaFrentz
4. Antawn Jamison
5. Vince Carter
6. Robert Traylor
7. Jason Williams
8. Larry Hughes
9. Dirk Nowitzski
10. Paul Pierce
11. Bonzi Wells
12. Michael Doleac
13. Keon Clark
14. Michael Dickerson

Obviously they don't map exactly, but Chet Holmgren would be Olowokandi, Ivey is Mike Bibby, Jabari Smith is the tall PF who only shoots 3s, Banchero is Antawn Jamison, and all four teams fucked up by not picking the #5 guy.

[R. DeMurre]

I agree it's unlikely, but I'd be happy if Murray dropped. I've just been seeing numerous references suddenly to "limited" athleticism or his having "topped out." Pretty crazy, considering the jump guys like Brandon Ingram made at 24, Dejounte made at 25, or Chris Boucher made at 27.

[Degoat]

There’s definitely a world where Keegan Murray falls I just don’t know if it’ll be to 9
1. Jabari
2. Paulo
3. Chet
4. Ivey
5. Sharpe
6. Mathurin
7. Davis
8. Griffin
9. Murray

I think Mathurin and Sharpe continue to rise and I’m seeing more Johnny Davis rising too lately

[Ariel]

The Spurs can pick at 1-4 (20.2%) or 9-13 (79.8%). I'd be shocked if Keegan Murray makes it to the top 4, and not shocked but surprised he'd fall to 9 (still possible). So it'd take a huge overreach (picking him top 4) or an unlikely scenario (falling to 9 or below) for him to become a Spur. And I don't think he's worth trading up and giving up other valuable assets in the process. So I'd be surprised if he ends up a Spur.

[BatManu20]

Put your mind at ease boys. Spurs will re-sign Fat Head this off-season and all of our PF woes will be absolved :lol


https://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/003/751/509/hi-res-7231dcb86ca1604ba7bab98095fa5b45_crop_exact.jpg?w= 1200&h=1200&q=75

[Ariel]

There’s definitely a world where Keegan Murray falls I just don’t know if it’ll be to 9
1. Jabari
2. Paulo
3. Chet
4. Ivey
5. Sharpe
6. Mathurin
7. Davis
8. Griffin
9. Murray

I think Mathurin and Sharpe continue to rise and I’m seeing more Johnny Davis rising too lately
AJ Griffin has the risks of MPJ without the upside. He could drop like a rock if his medical records are not convincing.

[Degoat]

AJ Griffin has the risks of MPJ without the upside. He could drop like a rock if his medical records are not convincing.

True he could absolutely fall, I see the Pelicans trying to appease Zion though surround him with shooters, Griffin played for Duke, etc.

[Degoat]

[QUOTE=BatManu20;10727591]Put your mind at ease boys. Spurs will re-sign Fat Head this off-season and all of our PF woes will be absolved :lol

Honestly thought about it and what if the spurs just view Keldon and Doug Mcderrmot as the teams PFs lol

[Ariel]

True he could absolutely fall, I see the Pelicans trying to appease Zion though surround him with shooters, Griffin played for Duke, etc.
Given recent events I'm more inclined to believe they'd be better off trading Zion and replacing him with Murray, than trying to appease him. Actually they'd have to be IDIOTS to do so, and the Pelicans FAILING TO EVEN MENTION HIM FOR NEXT SEASON TICKET HOLDERS points to them acknowledging this.
https://www.basketballnews.com/stories/no-mention-of-zion-williamson-in-pelicans-message-to-season-ticket-holders
https://i.ibb.co/QY80hmP/nozion.jpg

If I'm them I'd listen to offers and pull the trigger as soon as an acceptable one comes along. If not, I still draft a replacement (Keegan Murray or Banchero if they're lucky) and bring back Zion only to up his value and trade him as soon as that's the case. He's a ticking time bomb.

[BackHome]

I will be honest the more I watch Dieng the more I like the kid - Yeah it's kinda swinging for the fences but we have so many guards and not sold on Duren think you could get the same production with 25th pick on Ismael Kamagate.

[Ariel]

not sold on Duren think you could get the same production with 25th pick on Ismael Kamagate.
That's what I've been saying all along... the more I think about it, the more I like Kamagate at 25...

[Dejounte]

I might as well do my deep dive on Dieng then…

my initial reaction is that I’m concerned with guys like Dieng who hasn’t had experience as a focal point on offense. Maybe it can be developed, maybe it can’t. I think to take away the scoring load off DJ, you’ve got to have a certain type of mental makeup. DJ has to pretty much respect you if you’re going to take that many shots (I’m really speaking of any type of teammate here). It’s part of the team dynamic. Pop shares the same philosophy as we all know. You earn your keep on this team. Where Banchero would already be respected off the bat, guys who took more of a backseat in college won’t grasp quickly the whole “I’ll take what’s mine” mindset that most young players grow into.

Yes, there won’t be many players who fit this profile so beggars can’t be choosers.

[Russ]

Might as well repost this from another thread:


So, basically, what are the best attainable C prospects? I'd assume we'd be looking for a high-floor, relatively high-ceiling type, especially with the #9 pick (lottery notwithstanding). None of the projected top picks are C's either (I see Chet as more a PF from the little I've seen of him, at least until/if he fills out his body). What are the "big fish" out there?Thanks for any info, I like to at least know be familiar with the names to be interested in come draft night.


Other than possibly Duren, there's not a lot of upside in the centers likely to go in the 1st round.

You might take a look at Ismael Kamagate (France) with the Spurs 2d round pick (#38). (Though he might not be there by then.)

He's a little older (21) but he's averaging 11.8/6.3 in Paris shooting 648% from the floor and 664% from the line -- not disastrous for an athletic guy whose 6'11" and 230.

Negative -- he can't/doesn't shoot the three at all.

Most importantly, he looks to have a good motor -- he's a high-end offensive rebounder. In short, he moves pretty well and looks intriguing.

Given the dearth of centers in this draft he might be worth a look at some point down the draft.

LfeI2oT800c

[Degoat]

I like Dieng and wouldn’t mind if he’s the pick but I worry about Raw forwards like him after the Luka experiment lol As it stands I’d like to see
9th- Johnny Davis
20th- Blake Wesley/Marjon Beauchamp
25th- Ismael Kamagate
38th- Trayce Jackson Davis

[Ariel]

Might as well repost this from another thread:
If we don't take him at 25, he'd have to be passed on by Dallas (would be a great fit), Golden State (could really use him), Memphis, OKC (twice), Pacers (who might trade Turner and see him as a cheaper replacement), Portland and Sacramento before we get to 38. I think it's extremely unlikely he lasts that long with that many teams who could use him. If we want him (I do), I think we'd have to take him with the Boston pìck.

[Dejounte]

Ok, interesting. I like what I see so far. Dieng belongs in that group of “surprise box” ultra young and promising players: Sharpe, Miller, and PBJ.

“Surprise box” means that due to circumstance or environment, there isn’t enough tape on these guys for anyone to get a good grasp of how good they’ll be compared to the rest of the draft prospects

I’d rank the four like this right now:
1) Dieng
2) Miller
3) Sharpe
4) PBJ

these guys are either home run picks or flat out duds. Big gap.

Dieng has an impressive skillset for a guy his size. His 3 pt shooting is ugly though.

[Ariel]

Ok, interesting. I like what I see so far. Dieng belongs in that group of “surprise box” ultra young and promising players: Sharpe, Miller, and PBJ.

“Surprise box” means that due to circumstance or environment, there isn’t enough tape on these guys for anyone to get a good grasp of how good they’ll be compared to the rest of the draft prospects

I’d rank the four like this right now:
1) Dieng
2) Miller
3) Sharpe
4) PBJ

these guys are either home run picks or flat out duds. Big gap.

Dieng has an impressive skillset for a guy his size. His 3 pt shooting is ugly though.
I'd take Sharpe out of the picture, seems like he's been promised to get picked REALLY high (OKC?). Other than that, I like that list as a swing for the fences at 20... Jovic and Blake Wesley could be in that list too.
Calipari: "He was coming back, that was the plan. But all of the sudden some circumstances changed, and maybe he can be picked in those early early picks"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-WTwe_KUbA

[Dejounte]

I'd take Sharpe out of the picture, seems like he's been promised to get picked REALLY high (OKC?). Other than that, I like that list as a swing for the fences at 20... Jovic and Blake Wesley could be in that list too.
Calipari: "He was coming back, that was the plan. But all of the sudden some circumstances changed, and maybe he can be picked in those early early picks"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-WTwe_KUbA

I don’t think you can get promises at this point. Those happen in pre-draft individual<>team meetings. More likely he liked where he was being mocked and he turned back on his word to his coach. Not a good look, honestly. Shows a bit of his character.

[Ariel]

I don’t think you can get promises at this point. Those happen in pre-draft individual<>team meetings. More likely he liked where he was being mocked and he turned back on his word to his coach. Not a good look, honestly. Shows a bit of his character.
Officially, you're right. But there's all kind of comments that could slid under the table. Maybe not promises per se, but if he gets enough hints...

And I agree on his character. The whole season was a fiasco, there's a lot of murky stuff going on about his eligibility and so on... doesn't speak well of him as a person, and that's not the kind of player I'd invest a high pick on.

[rascal]

I don’t think you can get promises at this point. Those happen in pre-draft individual<>team meetings. More likely he liked where he was being mocked and he turned back on his word to his coach. Not a good look, honestly. Shows a bit of his character.

Good thing you're not running the Spurs if you put Sharpe behind Miller and Dieng.

[rascal]

I don’t think you can get promises at this point. Those happen in pre-draft individual<>team meetings. More likely he liked where he was being mocked and he turned back on his word to his coach. Not a good look, honestly. Shows a bit of his character.

Good thing you're not running the Spurs if you put Sharpe behind Miller and Dieng.

Doesn't show anything negative on his character, Calipari even says he's a good kid and supports him going to the NBA if he is a top pick and he's in discussions with his family on what he'll do.

[Degoat]

You can’t question a young man’s character when he could be guaranteed millions of dollars for changing his mind lol he would be insanely stupid to go back to school

[rascal]

If we don't take him at 25, he'd have to be passed on by Dallas (would be a great fit), Golden State (could really use him), Memphis, OKC (twice), Pacers (who might trade Turner and see him as a cheaper replacement), Portland and Sacramento before we get to 38. I think it's extremely unlikely he lasts that long with that many teams who could use him. If we want him (I do), I think we'd have to take him with the Boston pìck.

Agree that Boston pick would be where to take him. I don't like too many other players around that pick.

[Ariel]

You can’t question a young man’s character when he could be guaranteed millions of dollars for changing his mind lol he would be insanely stupid to go back to school
It goes much deeper than that. There are serious questions as to whether he actually graduated high school in time or not, at first it was reported he didn't and that's why he wasn't playing this year, now all of the sudden the paperwork appeared and he graduated on time, which makes you wonder why he didn't play in college in the first place... there are a lot of murky things surrounding him, a lot of coincidental events that sound extremely suspicious.

If he handles himself this way now and you still invest heavily on him now (it would take a top 4 pick to get him, IMO), you don't get to play surprised when he turns on you a few years down the road.

[exstatic]

AJ Griffin has the risks of MPJ without the upside. He could drop like a rock if his medical records are not convincing.

MPJ has a genetic condition that affects his connective tissue. His brother and sister have it, too. Not the same thing as recovering from a sprained knee.

[exstatic]

If we don't take him at 25, he'd have to be passed on by Dallas (would be a great fit), Golden State (could really use him), Memphis, OKC (twice), Pacers (who might trade Turner and see him as a cheaper replacement), Portland and Sacramento before we get to 38. I think it's extremely unlikely he lasts that long with that many teams who could use him. If we want him (I do), I think we'd have to take him with the Boston pìck.
The Spurs don’t think like that. They create an entire draft board of players, and at each pick, they just pick the highest remaining player on their board.

[ZeusWillJudge]

It goes much deeper than that. There are serious questions as to whether he actually graduated high school in time or not, at first it was reported he didn't and that's why he wasn't playing this year, now all of the sudden the paperwork appeared and he graduated on time, which makes you wonder why he didn't play in college in the first place... there are a lot of murky things surrounding him, a lot of coincidental events that sound extremely suspicious.

If he handles himself this way now and you still invest heavily on him now (it would take a top 4 pick to get him, IMO), you don't get to play surprised when he turns on you a few years down the road.


I'm afraid that kind of stuff is pretty much baked intot he system now. Players commit to a school, and then de-commit. It used to be a rarity, because once you'd given your word it was expected that you would honor it. Now they do it all the time. And transfers? Have you been paying attention to how much that is happening? Players used to have to get permission from their old coach, and sit out a year. Now they get a one-time pass, where they can transfer at will, and begin to play for the new team immediately. I'm not going to try to say whether it's good or bad - it just is. But money is ultimately the reason for it, and that mindset is going to travel upward into those same players' NBA careers. You can't wish it away.

I long for the days when I used to be nostalgic.

[CGD]

^ NCAAB is a relic of the past.

I can see a world in 5 years where the majority of top FRPs emerge from GLeague and/or Euro Pro leagues, with college picks fading into late FRPs and SRPs. The gulf between pro and college talent is so damn big now (it’s increasingly painful to watch the college product) that i can see the GLeague Ignite model carving out a nice niche

[rankingtear]

^ NCAAB is a relic of the past.

I can see a world in 5 years where the majority of top FRPs emerge from GLeague and/or Euro Pro leagues, with college picks fading into late FRPs and SRPs. The gulf between pro and college talent is so damn big now (it’s increasingly painful to watch the college product) that i can see the GLeague Ignite model carving out a nice niche

Ignite has 1 first rounder next draft?

[exstatic]

^ NCAAB is a relic of the past.

I can see a world in 5 years where the majority of top FRPs emerge from GLeague and/or Euro Pro leagues, with college picks fading into late FRPs and SRPs. The gulf between pro and college talent is so damn big now (it’s increasingly painful to watch the college product) that i can see the GLeague Ignite model carving out a nice niche

I think the image and likeness money will kill that momentum. The college product is painful to watch because of the 40 second shot clock, not the talent level, which is far better than the gleague. If they would cut the shot clock to 24 or 25 seconds, it would increase possessions and scoring. There is so much dead time spent not attacking or trying to score.

[ZeusWillJudge]

I think the image and likeness money will kill that momentum. The college product is painful to watch because of the 40 second shot clock, not the talent level, which is far better than the gleague. If they would cut the shot clock to 24 or 25 seconds, it would increase possessions and scoring. There is so much dead time spent not attacking or trying to score.


Yeah, I agree about the shot clock. But I don't know about the affect of image/likeness money. The change in transfer rules helps the big programs that bring in the big money to the system. And the image/likeness money will mean that these kids will be able to have an established brand before they complete 1 year of college. The really good ones will come into the league as congolmerates, and with leverage over the teams. "Do X,Y,Z or I'll take my entourage elsewhere." And that will REALLY make it tough on teams from small media markets.

Again, good or bad is pretty much beside the point. It just is. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're approaching a tipping point where the spectacle is bigger than the game itself.

[Mr. Body]

^ NCAAB is a relic of the past.

I can see a world in 5 years where the majority of top FRPs emerge from GLeague and/or Euro Pro leagues, with college picks fading into late FRPs and SRPs. The gulf between pro and college talent is so damn big now (it’s increasingly painful to watch the college product) that i can see the GLeague Ignite model carving out a nice niche

I'm not sure. The NIL has a chance to turn the NCAA into a wild west free for all where top talent gets paid way more than many rookies do. The head of the NCAA is stepping down. I mean, it's a shit organization to start, but they completely failed to lay any groundwork for a big situation.

[Mr. Body]

I think the image and likeness money will kill that momentum. The college product is painful to watch because of the 40 second shot clock, not the talent level, which is far better than the gleague. If they would cut the shot clock to 24 or 25 seconds, it would increase possessions and scoring. There is so much dead time spent not attacking or trying to score.

The shot clock has been 30 seconds in college since 2015. It was actually 35 since 1993. I do think the individual level of play in the NCAA is often pretty poor, with many teams not able to make jump shots or dribble up the court. They're incapable of making basketball reads in many situations. However, the team play is much better than in the G-League. Far better. So a player learns how to play within a team format, how to adjust to teammates and make them better, and perhaps most importantly, how opposing defenses will gear against them.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, I agree about the shot clock. But I don't know about the affect of image/likeness money. The change in transfer rules helps the big programs that bring in the big money to the system. And the image/likeness money will mean that these kids will be able to have an established brand before they complete 1 year of college. The really good ones will come into the league as congolmerates, and with leverage over the teams. "Do X,Y,Z or I'll take my entourage elsewhere." And that will REALLY make it tough on teams from small media markets.

Again, good or bad is pretty much beside the point. It just is. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're approaching a tipping point where the spectacle is bigger than the game itself.

I'm unsure how the transfer portal will affect things entirely. It could be good for mid-major and relatively smaller schools, where a player who wasn't quite ready or couldn't get time at a major program can go to develop. Tons of the best NBA players went to out of the way schools.

[rascal]

It goes much deeper than that. There are serious questions as to whether he actually graduated high school in time or not, at first it was reported he didn't and that's why he wasn't playing this year, now all of the sudden the paperwork appeared and he graduated on time, which makes you wonder why he didn't play in college in the first place... there are a lot of murky things surrounding him, a lot of coincidental events that sound extremely suspicious.

If he handles himself this way now and you still invest heavily on him now (it would take a top 4 pick to get him, IMO), you don't get to play surprised when he turns on you a few years down the road.

Sharpe is too athletic for the Spurs.

And the Spurs tend to be very conservative and risk adversed although Sharpe isn't any type of risk to me. The Spurs lack athleticism overall as a team.

[Ariel]

The Spurs don’t think like that. They create an entire draft board of players, and at each pick, they just pick the highest remaining player on their board.
Every team has a big board. That doesn't mean you shouldn't weight in information from other teams' needs when you have multiple picks.

Say we get to 20 and players A, B, C are available, in that order of preference. But you have credible intel that teams picking at 21-24 are interested in B only.

One (conservative) strategy would be take A at 20 and worry at 25 when you get there. That will guarantee you land your first choice, but also that you'll lose your second.

Another (speculative) strategy would be take B at 20 and bet that A will still be there at 25. That means you maximize your chances of getting both A and B, at the expense of a small chance of having to go with C at 25 if you got your facts wrong.

If the gap between A and B is smaller than the gap between B and C, it'd be stupid to go with the conservative strategy without considering the alternative. And though the Spurs may be conservative, they sure aren't stupid. So I have to believe they take stuff like this into consideration before making a decision.

Actually... weren't you the one arguing they took Primo at 12 because they had info he'd be taken if they traded back?

[Ariel]

Sharpe is too athletic for the Spurs.

And the Spurs tend to be very conservative and risk adversed although Sharpe isn't any type of risk to me. The Spurs lack athleticism overall as a team.
Athleticism is part of the equation. But basketball is a team sport, and knowing how to play and having the work ethic to put in the effort required is even more important than freakish athleticism. So at this point it's all a matter of how you ponder it all. Given that info is he'll go very high, our only chance would be taking him top 4 if we're lucky in the lottery, and if we get there I have Banchero and Ivey over him by a landslide. That's not to say he's going to be a bust, but he's made sure that's all there is to judge him on, and in light of all other concerns, it's not enough for me to put him over more proven talent. I'd consider him later on, but not at that range.

[rascal]

Every team has a big board. That doesn't mean you shouldn't weight in information from other teams' needs when you have multiple picks.

Say we get to 20 and players A, B, C are available, in that order of preference. But you have credible intel that teams picking at 21-24 are interested in B only.

One (conservative) strategy would be take A at 20 and worry at 25 when you get there. That will guarantee you land your first choice, but also that you'll lose your second.

Another (speculative) strategy would be take B at 20 and bet that A will still be there at 25. That means you maximize your chances of getting both A and B, at the expense of a small chance of having to go with C at 25 if you got your facts wrong.

If the gap between A and B is smaller than the gap between B and C, it'd be stupid to go with the conservative strategy without considering the alternative. And though the Spurs may be conservative, they sure aren't stupid. So I have to believe they take stuff like this into consideration before making a decision.

Actually... weren't you the one arguing they took Primo at 12 because they had info he'd be taken if they traded back?

No doubt the smart thing to do is to be flexible with your draft board and try to maximize both picks when they are close. Try to get both of your targeted players. If you draft fantasy teams that's what you do if drafting on the ends of a snake draft. You see who the guy next to you might take depending on his roster needs then you draft according to what he might do to maximize both of your picks.

[pad300]

MPJ has a genetic condition that affects his connective tissue. His brother and sister have it, too. Not the same thing as recovering from a sprained knee.

I'm pretty sure that AJ Griffin has had a lot more than a sprained knee.

[duncan2150]

I'm pretty sure that AJ Griffin has had a lot more than a sprained knee.

he is coming from a sprained knee this year nothing more but in 2020 i believe he had a discloated knee injury.

[exstatic]

Yeah, I agree about the shot clock. But I don't know about the affect of image/likeness money. The change in transfer rules helps the big programs that bring in the big money to the system. And the image/likeness money will mean that these kids will be able to have an established brand before they complete 1 year of college. The really good ones will come into the league as congolmerates, and with leverage over the teams. "Do X,Y,Z or I'll take my entourage elsewhere." And that will REALLY make it tough on teams from small media markets.

Again, good or bad is pretty much beside the point. It just is. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're approaching a tipping point where the spectacle is bigger than the game itself.

I was just responding to CGD, who said that the NCAA was history, and would be replaced by the gleague. Their pampered show ponies the Ignite only play in the 15 game cup tournament, and then in early January, kind of drop off the map. With money now in the NCAA, and the hype and history of the big programs, NCAA mens basketball is going nowhere.

[buttsR4rebounding]

It goes much deeper than that. There are serious questions as to whether he actually graduated high school in time or not, at first it was reported he didn't and that's why he wasn't playing this year, now all of the sudden the paperwork appeared and he graduated on time, which makes you wonder why he didn't play in college in the first place... there are a lot of murky things surrounding him, a lot of coincidental events that sound extremely suspicious.

If he handles himself this way now and you still invest heavily on him now (it would take a top 4 pick to get him, IMO), you don't get to play surprised when he turns on you a few years down the road.

His high school graduation is very suspect. In the end they said he graduated last May. If that was the case why wouldn't he just enroll at Kentucky in September. I would bet money some high school principal pocketed a nice payday for forging the documents, but it doesn't matter in the final analysis. Nobody cares and there is too much money on the line. If he is a top 6 pick like everyone expects right now you are talking $20 million plus over 4 years. No one would pass that up and do whatever they needed to make it happen.

[Mr. Body]

I was just responding to CGD, who said that the NCAA was history, and would be replaced by the gleague. Their pampered show ponies the Ignite only play in the 15 game cup tournament, and then in early January, kind of drop off the map. With money now in the NCAA, and the hype and history of the big programs, NCAA mens basketball is going nowhere.

I agree. If anything, this could cement power in the NCAA even more. If a player makes good money in college, he may be more inclined to stay. Especially in football, where getting a million dollars playing for Alabama may beat non-guaranteed contracts playing for some shit franchise in the NFL. At least it's become an option.

Then you have massive college fanbases. I don't see those going anywhere. The exposure and just the money itself is huge in college sports and now you have boosters opening their huge wallets. No one gives a shit about the G-League and that's never going to change. And now the money a guy can make in the G-League will pale compared to what Kansas or UNC can give them.

[exstatic]

Every team has a big board. That doesn't mean you shouldn't weight in information from other teams' needs when you have multiple picks.

Say we get to 20 and players A, B, C are available, in that order of preference. But you have credible intel that teams picking at 21-24 are interested in B only.

One (conservative) strategy would be take A at 20 and worry at 25 when you get there. That will guarantee you land your first choice, but also that you'll lose your second.

Another (speculative) strategy would be take B at 20 and bet that A will still be there at 25. That means you maximize your chances of getting both A and B, at the expense of a small chance of having to go with C at 25 if you got your facts wrong.

If the gap between A and B is smaller than the gap between B and C, it'd be stupid to go with the conservative strategy without considering the alternative. And though the Spurs may be conservative, they sure aren't stupid. So I have to believe they take stuff like this into consideration before making a decision.

Actually... weren't you the one arguing they took Primo at 12 because they had info he'd be taken if they traded back?

That doesn’t contradict Primo being the player at the top of their board. In fact that supports the camp that says they pick player A in your scenario, and not fuck around. When BW thinks he can leverage additional assets, he does. Otherwise, no.

It’s been said over and over through the years how the Spurs conduct their draft. Keep imagining it your way, though.

[ZeusWillJudge]

I'm unsure how the transfer portal will affect things entirely. It could be good for mid-major and relatively smaller schools, where a player who wasn't quite ready or couldn't get time at a major program can go to develop. Tons of the best NBA players went to out of the way schools.


I'm curious how that will help the smaller schools? Seriously, not arguing, just wondering what how you're looking at this. To me it seems like the players who weren't ready or were overlooked in high school will jump ship at their first chance to try and go to a major and improve their visibility for the draft. To me, that seems good for the big program, but not so much for the smaller ones.

Maybe when they start paying them, they can also institute some kind of salary cap and offset rules for trades. "Sorry, but you're being traded to Appalachia State." Now we're talking! Give 'em the full NBA experience.

[R. DeMurre]

I long for the days when I used to be nostalgic.


:lol
(nice turn of phrase)

[Mr. Body]

I'm curious how that will help the smaller schools? Seriously, not arguing, just wondering what how you're looking at this. To me it seems like the players who weren't ready or were overlooked in high school will jump ship at their first chance to try and go to a major and improve their visibility for the draft. To me, that seems good for the big program, but not so much for the smaller ones.

Maybe when they start paying them, they can also institute some kind of salary cap and offset rules for trades. "Sorry, but you're being traded to Appalachia State." Now we're talking! Give 'em the full NBA experience.

There will be players who can't get time at bigger programs or are getting recruited over. Those guys will look elsewhere. Walker Kessler didn't get time at UNC and went to Auburn. Keion Brooks is leaving Kentucky and will likely go to a smaller program. Khristian Lander was a five star who wasn't ready to play at Indiana and has gone to Western Kentucky. The transfer portal lets players go immediately, whereas sitting out a full year was prohibitive before. I honestly don't see top players leaving to big programs as much. It's too risky to leave good situations and often will find more competition at their positions. Of course they could simply leave to the pros once they're ready.

[Mr. Body]

I'm curious how that will help the smaller schools? Seriously, not arguing, just wondering what how you're looking at this. To me it seems like the players who weren't ready or were overlooked in high school will jump ship at their first chance to try and go to a major and improve their visibility for the draft. To me, that seems good for the big program, but not so much for the smaller ones.

Maybe when they start paying them, they can also institute some kind of salary cap and offset rules for trades. "Sorry, but you're being traded to Appalachia State." Now we're talking! Give 'em the full NBA experience.

And I don't think visibility at the draft is difficult for players at smaller schools. Stephen Curry went to Davidson. Damien Lillard went to Weber State. CJ McCollum went to Lehigh. Gordon Hayward went to Butler. They all went in the lottery. Going to bigger schools, they might not have been able to develop the same way they did.

[R. DeMurre]

His high school graduation is very suspect. In the end they said he graduated last May. If that was the case why wouldn't he just enroll at Kentucky in September. I would bet money some high school principal pocketed a nice payday for forging the documents, but it doesn't matter in the final analysis. Nobody cares and there is too much money on the line. If he is a top 6 pick like everyone expects right now you are talking $20 million plus over 4 years. No one would pass that up and do whatever they needed to make it happen.


Let's be honest though, Primo's high school history is a bit odd too. He went to Huntington Prep in West Virginia, which ran into some mysterious troubles, transferred to Arizona, then left to return to a high school in Toronto. He reclassified at some point to graduate early so he could attend Alabama. Alabama has a history of being involved with players who reclassify in high school in order to attend college early, having also done that with Kira Lewis Jr and other players. It's a nice trick to grab prospects early, but I wonder how well it would hold up to serious scrutiny. A couple of articles I've read and Primo's wiki page don't mention the Compass Prep school in Arizona at all, but press releases from the school call Primo a "former senior and 2020 graduate," claiming him as an NBA draft pick who was a product of their program.


https://voiceofmotown.com/whats-really-behind-huntington-prep-removal-from-st-josephs-catholic-school/
https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nba/news/2021-nba-draft-who-is-josh-primo-get-to-know-canadas-rising-prospect/lyyksmefb48s1bzqn3e2jb6yy
https://azcompassprep.com/first-az-compass-prep-basketball-player-taken-in-nba-draft/

[KingKev]

^ haha not finishing HS only adds to the allure… he hasn’t even graduated HS yet!!!!

Imagine how good he’ll be when he gets his GED. BBIQ to the moon!

[R. DeMurre]

:lol

[ZeusWillJudge]

And I don't think visibility at the draft is difficult for players at smaller schools. Stephen Curry went to Davidson. Damien Lillard went to Weber State. CJ McCollum went to Lehigh. Gordon Hayward went to Butler. They all went in the lottery. Going to bigger schools, they might not have been able to develop the same way they did.


Yeah but those guys are outliers. And Hayward took Butler to the NCAA finals. I'm just saying that if there was an open door to switch schools, Steph and Dame (for instance) might have decided to go to a bigger program.

Look at it another way - I'm sure Duncan made a lot of money off endorsements, even playing in a small media market. But a lot of players, if they had his talent, would have decided that they could make a lot more off endorsements than salary, and moved to a bigger market. I think some of the same principle will hold with college players transferring. Keep an eye on it, and we'll compare notes in 5-6 years.

[BackHome]

So who we gonna draft?

[Mr. Body]

Yeah but those guys are outliers. And Hayward took Butler to the NCAA finals. I'm just saying that if there was an open door to switch schools, Steph and Dame (for instance) might have decided to go to a bigger program.

Look at it another way - I'm sure Duncan made a lot of money off endorsements, even playing in a small media market. But a lot of players, if they had his talent, would have decided that they could make a lot more off endorsements than salary, and moved to a bigger market. I think some of the same principle will hold with college players transferring. Keep an eye on it, and we'll compare notes in 5-6 years.

Yeah, I don't think you're really understanding, but that's okay.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Yeah, I don't think you're really understanding, but that's okay.


I just don't think there will be that many lesser players wanting to jump down a level when they get to be part of a top-tier program. A few, but not that many. But I do think that a lot of the best of the small-program players will jump to top-tier teams if they can. And that will weaken the smaller colleges, and strengthen the bigger ones. The ones that don't jump? Well they'll stay put just like they always have.

But the bit about them staying in a small program to develop? Most don't show much interest in staying in college an extra year to develop. Maybe I'm just too cynical.

Pretty sure I understand, I just don't see it your way. And, yeah, that's okay. We're pretty far off-topic.

[Mr. Body]

So who we gonna draft?

Josh Primo's brother.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Josh Primo's brother.

Alejandro Segundo Mejor just signed an LOI with the Tarheels.

[BackHome]

Josh Primo's brother.

Do it Pop!!

[PhantomDashCam]

Finally some Combine Intel:

1520795429230755840

and for the G-League Combine:

1521178529517518851

From memory, Spurs had some interest in Hall pre-draft last year. Feels like a very Spurs-ian pick in the second round...

[ragas]

^ haha not finishing HS only adds to the allure… he hasn’t even graduated HS yet!!!!

Imagine how good he’ll be when he gets his GED. BBIQ to the moon!

BBIQ has nothing to do with the general IQ.

[mo7888]

BBIQ has nothing to do with the general IQ.

That one went right over your head didn't it....

[SAGirl]

I'd take Sharpe out of the picture, seems like he's been promised to get picked REALLY high (OKC?). Other than that, I like that list as a swing for the fences at 20... Jovic and Blake Wesley could be in that list too.
Calipari: "He was coming back, that was the plan. But all of the sudden some circumstances changed, and maybe he can be picked in those early early picks"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-WTwe_KUbA

Thanks for sharing that.
Frankly, that Calipari statement gives me a whole different vibe and context to Sharpe. He had planned to play. There was nothing in his character to say he ghosted the team. Its that some team is planning to pick him in the lottery without him having to play a single college game, and that changes things. If it was OKC, they have been known to hide their prospects by promising a pick (as you suggest) in exchange for not showing up at the combine scrimmages, etc.

From Sharpe’s camp, if he was already going in the lottery no matter what, there was nothing to gain by playing but risk. It was chancy that he could get his stock any higher (these are lottery teams with multiple picks) and there is always the risk of injury or a bad performance. At this point, when players are already preparing for the draft, they only make themselves available if it raises their stock and draft position, that is why guys who are projected as lottery talents don’t show up at the combine, among other things. In this case, his agent and camp were persuaded from avoiding a few college games because he was already a projected lottery pick.

[duncan2150]

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1521497306478092289

On another note, Spurs workout Michael Devoe , Senior G 6'5 17.9 pts 5 rebounds 3 assists 1.4 stls ( 36% at 3 with 6 attempts). Probably Austin related.

[Mr. Body]

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1521497306478092289

On another note, Spurs workout Michael Devoe , Senior G 6'5 17.9 pts 5 rebounds 3 assists 1.4 stls ( 36% at 3 with 6 attempts). Probably Austin related.

Yeah, def look at value and fringe guys. I don't think we'll hear much about who they're targetting with the 1st round picks. They tend to be extremely secretive.

[Ocotillo]

6'5" guard, hmmm, who'd a thunk it?

[Dejounte]

Spurs do this every year. They collect data on players and set lower and upper limits on skill and athleticism so that decisions are made on data, not hype.

It’s likely also why the combine and private workouts are important to them.

[BatManu20]

Spurs have 4 picks. They’re likely going to draft at least one 6’5 Guard tbh. They can’t help themselves.

Give me Blake Wesley if that’s the case. Or 6’6 Marjon Beauchamp.

[Mr. Body]

Barring an unlikely jump into the top 4, it seems to me like the best options for the Spurs are off the board by their pick, including Keegan Murray, who would be an excellent fit.

At the #9 or #10 pick, there seems to be a trough where explicit team need isn't really serviced that well. I'm uncertain about Jalen Duren and pushing the button for Jeremy Sochan might be a tad of a reach, or a Tari Eason.

I could see a surprise pick like Ousmane Dieng or similar, the Leonard Millers.

But as the boards are currently constructed, I'm starting to really see Johnny Davis as someone the Spurs would want.

[rascal]

Barring an unlikely jump into the top 4, it seems to me like the best options for the Spurs are off the board by their pick, including Keegan Murray, who would be an excellent fit.

At the #9 or #10 pick, there seems to be a trough where explicit team need isn't really serviced that well. I'm uncertain about Jalen Duren and pushing the button for Jeremy Sochan might be a tad of a reach, or a Tari Eason.

I could see a surprise pick like Ousmane Dieng or similar, the Leonard Millers.

But as the boards are currently constructed, I'm starting to really see Johnny Davis as someone the Spurs would want.

I like Murray, would be the best wing on the spurs.

[rascal]

Miller at 9 would be another reach like last year. There is a chance they could get miller later.

I like Ogbaji better than Miller. You can get Miller at 20 or 25.

And Primo hasn't worked out so well so far.

[BatManu20]

Johnny Davis was arguably my favorite player in CBB this season, so I wouldn’t hate the pick. But I think they go Agbaji if they go SG with their first pick.

With that said, I think they swing for the fences and go with a guy like Miller if he stays in this draft and is still on the board when we select. I’m already starting to see some analysts on Twitter say they think he might sneak into the lottery after the pre-draft process. His workouts will tell a lot obviously.

Ousmane Dieng belongs nowhere near the top-10 imo. But I’m sure the Spurs will do their due diligence with him.

[Mr. Body]

I have questions about Johnny Davis. He isn't an explosive athlete, so requires his craftiness to get him space and to the basket. His three-point shooting dipped last year. The ball really stuck in his hands this year for Wisconsin; once he got it, he deliberated and was often slow to get into his offensive activity.

However... he's crafty. Lots of superb handles and movement, wiggle and slyness to get himself room. So maybe he's not the most explosive, but he's doing a lot around it. As for the sticking -- Wisconsin barely had any options after him. He was the offense. I think he can play off-ball in ways a guy like Mathurin might not. And it's not like he's a ball-hog; the Badgers really needed him to do everything. He wasn't an unwilling passer. On a better team, he can probably move the ball and get his shot off better. His 3-pointers might improve.

Unlike the guards we have, he seems like a guy who is very happy to get his shot when needed. He has a great midrange. I know we cringe at that, after DeRozan, but Davis has shown some clutch plays as well as ability to get offense when things break down.

He was a great rebounder this year, at 8.2 ppg. Kind of like Dejounte, he'd be helping weaker bigs. And, as one site pointed out, he shot more FTs per game than Zion Williamson did at Duke. Great for the Spurs, who barely attempt any. (And made nearly 80% of them.)

I feel like Johnny Davis has to be on the short list. He has a ton of potential.

[BatManu20]

He’s no longer a secret, that’s for sure.

1521937310043938816

[BatManu20]

1521838955376914433

[Mr. Body]

Weirdly enough, both Keegan Murray and Johnny Davis have twin brothers that played on their teams last year.

[Mr. Body]

He’s no longer a secret, that’s for sure.

1521937310043938816

I've said before, if teams/mocks are going to freak out over Shaeden Sharpe, they have to freak out over Leonard Miller. Either both are worth freaking out over or neither is.

I see a situation where the top four go as a tier -- Smith, Holmgren, Banchero, Ivey, in whatever order -- then things get wobbly. I can see someone like Sharpe going and then a cascade of teams uncertain whether to stick with plans or changing plans with Miller and so on. In short, I can see a player like Murray tumbling in the fracas.

[BatManu20]

I think Johnny Davis’ 3-point shooting will continue to improve at the next level with more reps and better spacing than he had at Wisconsin. Just a matter of time imo.

Another underrated aspect of his game that most guards in this draft don’t have is his post-up ability. He was the best SG in the post in CBB this season. Really good in that department with his advanced footwork and mid-range ability.

I like him better than Agbaji personally. Not quite as athletic and not the 3-point shooter Agbaji is, but he’s 2 years younger, is better off the dribble, and is better in the midrange. I also just like his iso-ability to go get you a bucket when you need one better.

[BatManu20]

Here’s some examples of Davis’ ability in the post from one game against one of the best defensive teams in CBB.

He shows some of his footwork, midrange touch, and passing ability in just a handful of possessions.


1491449958155055106

[Mr. Body]

Davis does a great job of bumping defenders away without offensive fouling. He's pretty remarkable there.

Forgot to mention among the best parts -- he's a very good defender. He shouldered a massive offensive load and still turned in shifts on the other side of the floor.

[TD 21]

A guards ability to post up is not a great selling point for a top 10 pick. He not only has an at best shaky jumper, but lacks elite athleticism/burst to make up for it.

Suggs is similar, with more athleticism and struggled mightily (granted, he was injured on and off and it's early, but still).

[rascal]

A guards ability to post up is not a great selling point for a top 10 pick. He not only has an at best shaky jumper, but lacks elite athleticism/burst to make up for it.

Suggs is similar, with more athleticism and struggled mightily (granted, he was injured on and off and it's early, but still).

Agree, seems to lack explosiveness and plays below the rim.

Spurs are stacked with those type of players.

[rascal]

I think Johnny Davis’ 3-point shooting will continue to improve at the next level with more reps and better spacing than he had at Wisconsin. Just a matter of time imo.

Another underrated aspect of his game that most guards in this draft don’t have is his post-up ability. He was the best SG in the post in CBB this season. Really good in that department with his advanced footwork and mid-range ability.

I like him better than Agbaji personally. Not quite as athletic and not the 3-point shooter Agbaji is, but he’s 2 years younger, is better off the dribble, and is better in the midrange. I also just like his iso-ability to go get you a bucket when you need one better.

I like Agbaji better. More athletic and a tough competitor in the clutch, good all around game.

[SAGirl]

Something to lighten your day…
1130986736732004355

[rascal]

I've said before, if teams/mocks are going to freak out over Shaeden Sharpe, they have to freak out over Leonard Miller. Either both are worth freaking out over or neither is.

I see a situation where the top four go as a tier -- Smith, Holmgren, Banchero, Ivey, in whatever order -- then things get wobbly. I can see someone like Sharpe going and then a cascade of teams uncertain whether to stick with plans or changing plans with Miller and so on. In short, I can see a player like Murray tumbling in the fracas.

Sharpe looks far better than Miller. Murray would be great at 9 for the Spurs but doubt he will still be there.

Miller would not be a good pick at 9.

[Mr. Body]

Sharpe looks far better than Miller. Murray would be great at 9 for the Spurs but doubt he will still be there.

Miller would not be a good pick at 9.

You have no idea whether Sharpe is better than Miller. It's just dumb highlight packages for both of them.

[rascal]

You have no idea whether Sharpe is better than Miller. It's just dumb highlight packages for both of them.

I have an idea just like you have ideas on some players that you like.

[The Truth #6]

The hype for Miller and Sharpe is similar in that they’re both young and Canadian, I suppose. But Sharpe at least has a great looking jump shot. Miller’s shot looks weird. But they’re both relatively unproven, that’s true.

[Maddog]

You have no idea whether Sharpe is better than Miller. It's just dumb highlight packages for both of them.

I don't think any of us have an idea. And I think a lot of teams have no idea.

I know I'm being a bit facetious, but I think there's a lot luck involved in this

[duncan2150]

I like Agbaji better. More athletic and a tough competitor in the clutch, good all around game.


I think Davis is way better as a player and got more upside. Agbaji could be a real good role player but not more imo. He's not capable of create his shot, not really complete on offense except the shooting ( 3 pt, catch and shoot).

[duncan2150]

A guards ability to post up is not a great selling point for a top 10 pick. He not only has an at best shaky jumper, but lacks elite athleticism/burst to make up for it.

Suggs is similar, with more athleticism and struggled mightily (granted, he was injured on and off and it's early, but still).

and that's not one of his strenghts imo, he can post up but he's better on iso and catch and shoot. Really good defender also.

[BackHome]

Yep, can't get better without a little luck "Come on Ping Pong Ball" get us that top 4 pick this year. As far as Sharpe he looks ready as far as his body while Miller looks like he will take two years to get there which is OK since big usually take a little longer then guards. They both have traits that teams are looking for but I think Sharpe will go around 4 to 8 and Miller will go anywhere from 20 to 30.

I would not mind the following picks:

9 - Ousmane Dieng - PF 6'9
20 - Leonard Miller - SF/PF - 6'10
25 - Ismael Kamagate - C - 6'11
38 - Procida or Besson

Other players I really like in the in our 20 ranges would be:

Malaki Branham *
Blake Wesley *

[Mr. Body]

I think Davis is way better as a player and got more upside. Agbaji could be a real good role player but not more imo. He's not capable of create his shot, not really complete on offense except the shooting ( 3 pt, catch and shoot).

Pretty much. If Agbaji is at 20, definitely interested. At 9 he's a reach.

In playing style, Johnny Davis is a bit of Tyler Herro. Probably not as dynamic in space, but that mix of ability to shoot anywhere that can cause a lot of problems.

[mo7888]

I've said before, if teams/mocks are going to freak out over Shaeden Sharpe, they have to freak out over Leonard Miller. Either both are worth freaking out over or neither is.

I see a situation where the top four go as a tier -- Smith, Holmgren, Banchero, Ivey, in whatever order -- then things get wobbly. I can see someone like Sharpe going and then a cascade of teams uncertain whether to stick with plans or changing plans with Miller and so on. In short, I can see a player like Murray tumbling in the fracas.

I wholeheartedly agree with this..

[duncan2150]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfbsfp1eOt4

Maybe too high at 9 but he's a player i can move up for. He needs some work on the shoot and the ball handling but he has size, body, athletism , defense and a lot of other things.

Reminds me a little bit of Gerald Wallace with better shooting touch coming out of NCAA.


And he is from Seattle...

[Mr. Body]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfbsfp1eOt4

Maybe too high at 9 but he's a player i can move up for. He needs some work on the shoot and the ball handling but he has size, body, athletism , defense and a lot of other things.

Reminds me a little bit of Gerald Wallace with better shooting touch coming out of NCAA.


And he is from Seattle...

Eason remains on my short list, even at 9. I'm very intrigued. He made SEC conference first team coming off the bench, which is a bit crazy. His potential is very high as a difference maker, but there are clear issues. He's like this wild man and I'm not sure how disciplined he'll ever be. He not only fouls a ton, he fouled out of a lot of games. He gets tunnel vision on drives and can turn the ball over. And so on. But he also has these beast mode plays where he blows up the opposition on both sides of the ball. I think I still have him behind Sochan at the PF due to uncertainty. If we got a guard or even someone like Duren at 9/10, I'd love to get Eason at 20, but think he'll be gone by then.

[BackHome]

Yeah I agree with you on Eason on defense he is a beast on offense it’s feast or famine the fouls and I think he had maybe 15 assist the whole year gives me pause at 9, but I also agree I think he is gone by 20. Our luck I bet he gets taken at 19 just so close but yet so far. Lol

[Atl Spur]

Sochan

[duncan2150]

Sochan


He's like my favorite at 9. I know it will be exagerrated for some but i may have him ahead of Keagan Murray. I see a biiig upside.

[objective]

I would probably have Sochan over Keegan.

Here's a video from the last couple of days that kind of gets at some of what's bothered me with Murray. And the video doesn't even question his height and simply credits him as being either 6-8 or 6-9.

The comparison to Keita Bates Diop is a little worrisome, especially as I expect Keegan to measure smaller


https://youtu.be/tiCs1TNAAY0

[exstatic]

Weirdly enough, both Keegan Murray and Johnny Davis have twin brothers that played on their teams last year.

Phoenix will draft/sign both of them. They always go for the shitty twin/brother.

[rjv]

found this nice article this morning:

https://www.si.com/nba/2022/05/05/nba-draft-big-board-ranking-top-100-prospects-jabari-smith-jaden-ivey-chet-holmgren-paolo-banchero

[Mr. Body]

found this nice article this morning:

https://www.si.com/nba/2022/05/05/nba-draft-big-board-ranking-top-100-prospects-jabari-smith-jaden-ivey-chet-holmgren-paolo-banchero

Interesting to see where he puts Duren (after Williams), Griffin, Eason, and others.

[rjv]

Interesting to see where he puts Duren (after Williams), Griffin, Eason, and others.

indeed. after the tourney, i started to prefer williams over duren myself. it was also interesting to see samaki walker's son on that list, as a potential 2nd rounder.

[rascal]

Sochan

Sochan is not strong offensively. Poor shooter

[exstatic]

found this nice article this morning:

https://www.si.com/nba/2022/05/05/nba-draft-big-board-ranking-top-100-prospects-jabari-smith-jaden-ivey-chet-holmgren-paolo-banchero

It seemed very old school in it’s choices and preferences.

[rjv]

It seemed very old school in it’s choices and preferences.

i wasn't really paying to much attention to the ranking, or even too much on the scouting. it's just a nice list to start with and then do more research on.

[Mr. Body]

Sochan is not strong offensively. Poor shooter

I've posted before, his shooting numbers as a freshman are almost exactly the same as Kawhi's were as a sophomore, just slightly better.

[Mr. Body]

It seemed very old school in it’s choices and preferences.

He's actually negs Duren for being old school.

[rjv]

He's actually negs Duren for being old school.

he dinged several bigs for not having stretch capabilities. and others for not being able to guard multiple positions.

[The Truth #6]

Assuming we are at 9 and he isn’t gone, I keep coming back to Johnny Davis. Malthurin may be the better player eventually on most teams, but with Pop I see it as the opposite; I can see Pop loving Davis’ competitive fire and finding a way to maximize Davis. Context is key for all these players. I think Pop would work with Davis well; same for Sochan.

[Mr. Body]

Assuming we are at 9 and he isn’t gone, I keep coming back to Johnny Davis. Malthurin may be the better player eventually on most teams, but with Pop I see it as the opposite; I can see Pop loving Davis’ competitive fire and finding a way to maximize Davis. Context is key for all these players. I think Pop would work with Davis well; same for Sochan.

Agree. Mathurin is very athletic and has huge potential, but he has concerns playing off the ball, which is extremely important in Pop's offense, and he's not good defensively. Davis feels very Spursy yet with an ability to create his own shots, which barely any franchise SGs or wings have been able to do since, like, Gervin. (Manu aside.)

I'm basically for Davis or Sochan at this point. Which just says neither will be the pick.

[TD 21]

:lmao Pop is 73 and you're concerned about whether a top 10 pick, on a team in desperate need of anything resembling dynamic talent, can fit into his "system" (which is primarily being utilized because of the lack of said dynamic talent).

[The Truth #6]

I don’t see Pop leaving for another two years. Rookie contracts are, what, 4 years? I don’t see the realistic advantage of drafting another Lonnie Walker with skills but lacks the maturity or readiness to compete if Pop is still around operating under his normal preferences and whims. Different scenario at picks 1-7, but around 8 or 9 the talent flattens.

[Mr. Body]

:lmao Pop is 73 and you're concerned about whether a top 10 pick, on a team in desperate need of anything resembling dynamic talent, can fit into his "system" (which is primarily being utilized because of the lack of said dynamic talent).

He's not going anywhere, and whoever takes over will retain the same general style. Franchises don't really change their identities that readily, if ever.

[TD 21]

You don't know that and even if true, so what? The goal here should be BPA in terms of long term value, not what's best for a 73 year old's precious "system".

Outside of here and a few other places who lack the personnel for it, the universal NBA "system" now is essentially an inverted one of the old one (unless you're the Nuggets or 76ers): Seek out the biggest liability defender on the opposition in space (generally a big or small guard), high screen, if necessary rescreen, get the switch, if given enough cushion, pull up jumper, if not blow by and depending on whether the help is timely either get all the way to the rim or drop off/kick out.

[rascal]

He's not going anywhere, and whoever takes over will retain the same general style. Franchises don't really change their identities that readily, if ever.

Disagree, they changed from Drossos to Bob Bass to Pop, all very different. The early Spurs were built around run and gun offense.

[rjv]

Disagree, they changed from Drossos to Bob Bass to Pop, all very different.

yeah, but that era was very different. while there were coaches such as moe and albeck, and even larry brown, that ran certain style of offenses ultimately there was no organizational system or philosophy in place. but that doesn't mean that you can't run a different scheme, or that a coach can't change his scheme, no matter his age.

[The Truth #6]

Pop’s system evolves more than his personality. He likes tough players and hazes naive, weak young players. I’m hyperbolizing but somewhat true.

[rascal]

The most exciting teams the Spurs had were the 1970s teams. Drossos wanted to get exciting players with athleticism and was much better with improving the team with trades than Pop.

Pop is more defensive minded.

[exstatic]

The most exciting teams the Spurs had were the 1970s teams. Drossos wanted to get exciting players with athleticism and was much better with improving the team with trades than Pop.

Pop is more defensive minded.
Pop is more championship minded.

[Mr. Body]

Disagree, they changed from Drossos to Bob Bass to Pop, all very different. The early Spurs were built around run and gun offense.

It's hysteresis. Things don't change that rapidly. The Knicks have a key set of characteristics. The Warriors have a key set of characteristics. These live both on the court and off. Anyway, no one should expect the Spurs to suddenly become a bunch of ballers shuttling up and down the court with no structure once Pop leaves.

[jjspur]

Pop’s system evolves more than his personality. He likes tough players and hazes naive, weak young players. I’m hyperbolizing but somewhat true.
I can see Keldon being tough and Luca Sammich being weak and naive . Yep spot on.

[BatManu20]

6’7 guard. Projected late FRP.

1522288672183406593

[Mr. Body]

6’7 guard. Projected late FRP.

1522288672183406593

He played for a terrible Nebraska team, but that's not his fault. His problem is that all his talent is on one side of the ball. You rarely see a draft prospect post a negative DBPM out of college, yet there you go.

[FutureMan]

I don’t see Pop leaving for another two years. Rookie contracts are, what, 4 years? I don’t see the realistic advantage of drafting another Lonnie Walker with skills but lacks the maturity or readiness to compete if Pop is still around operating under his normal preferences and whims. Different scenario at picks 1-7, but around 8 or 9 the talent flattens.

Wait… are you comparing Mathurin to Lonnie Walker??

[The Truth #6]

Wait… are you comparing Mathurin to Lonnie Walker??

Not exactly, but fair question. I think Mathurin will likely be better but on the Spurs I see Davis having a better path to success.

[duncan2150]

He played for a terrible Nebraska team, but that's not his fault. His problem is that all his talent is on one side of the ball. You rarely see a draft prospect post a negative DBPM out of college, yet there you go.

Yes the D is bad but i think the offensive potential is huge, could be a nice late first pick.


I've posted before, his shooting numbers as a freshman are almost exactly the same as Kawhi's were as a sophomore, just slightly better.

And the shooting form is good, he was good last year on corner three ( right side ) and on the top of the key threes. He can make them without a doubt.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/mike_schmitz/status/1522594201426268160?s=21

[Mr. Body]

A good article on Leonard Miller. Some, like ESPN, still see him in the late 1st or early 2nd, which doesn't seem right. If he's still there in the 20s I definitely have him on my list. I think he'll wind up going much earlier.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/05/nba-draft-leonard-miller-kentucky-arizona-g-league-ignite-overtime-elite

[rjv]

A good article on Leonard Miller. Some, like ESPN, still see him in the late 1st or early 2nd, which doesn't seem right. If he's still there in the 20s I definitely have him on my list. I think he'll wind up going much earlier.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/05/nba-draft-leonard-miller-kentucky-arizona-g-league-ignite-overtime-elite

his pre-draft process bears a closer watch.

[Mr. Body]

his pre-draft process bears a closer watch.

He also sounds confident but not an asshole. We'll see.

[JPB]

6’7 guard. Projected late FRP.

1522288672183406593

Same issue as Miller, low release. Ain't Steph who wants.

[Mr. Body]

https://twitter.com/mike_schmitz/status/1522594201426268160?s=21

You hear that Eason doesn't have the highest bb IQ, gets lost in defensive structures at times, picks up those fouls, doesn't see the floor that great. But then he's an athletic, hustling marvel who makes tons of plays.

Trayce Jackson-Davis is at that workout. Other tape shows him hitting threes at least in a shootaround style. Take that what you will. Even without a J, to me he projects fairly close to Brandon Clarke. They were about the same age coming out, Clarke also didn't shoot well, and their stats were really similar in their last year. I don't understand why mocks aren't thinking he'll be drafted. To me, he's definitely in steal area. Could be an excellent bench guy for a Spurs team that badly needs a dynamic, hustling PF who can block shots, rebound, and has switchability with more strength than Landale/Zollins. If he gets a J, he's a potential starter who can play next to a non-shooting C like Poeltl.

[exstatic]

You hear that Eason doesn't have the highest bb IQ, gets lost in defensive structures at times, picks up those fouls, doesn't see the floor that great. But then he's an athletic, hustling marvel who makes tons of plays.

Trayce Jackson-Davis is at that workout. Other tape shows him hitting threes at least in a shootaround style. Take that what you will. Even without a J, to me he projects fairly close to Brandon Clarke. They were about the same age coming out, Clarke also didn't shoot well, and their stats were really similar in their last year. I don't understand why mocks aren't thinking he'll be drafted. To me, he's definitely in steal area. Could be an excellent bench guy for a Spurs team that badly needs a dynamic, hustling PF who can block shots, rebound, and has switchability with more strength than Landale/Zollins. If he gets a J, he's a potential starter who can play next to a non-shooting C like Poeltl.

Your description of Eason sounds like all the things wrong with Lonnie.

[rjv]

eason is seen as a better defender than lonnie was coming out of college but there are similarities. of course, lonnie has had several years under one of the best developmental franchises in the NBA and he still has the same limitations. eason, on the other hand, hasn't had the best of coaching. (btw, i'm not saying i want eason if the spurs are in a position to draft him.)

[R. DeMurre]

All of Eason's defensive metrics, raw and advanced, are pretty much off the charts, very unlike Lonnie... It's still a mystery why he came off the bench for LSU. He definitely seems to have an unusual personality, which isn't too surprising-- Rodman, Artest, Stephen Jackson, Patrick Beverley, Kawhi, Draymond etc., all have/had that intensity & temperament that channels personal quirks into defensive success.

[R. DeMurre]

Trayce Jackson-Davis has been a hot topic this week on twitter, with a bunch of well known draft analysts talking about him. Two weeks ago he wasn't even listed in the top 60 of most mocks.

[Mr. Body]

All of Eason's defensive metrics, raw and advanced, are pretty much off the charts, very unlike Lonnie... It's still a mystery why he came off the bench for LSU. He definitely seems to have an unusual personality, which isn't too surprising-- Rodman, Artest, Stephen Jackson, Patrick Beverley, Kawhi, Draymond etc., all have/had that intensity & temperament that channels personal quirks into defensive success.

He came off the bench, I believe, because he fouled a whole effing lot. He fouled out of like six games this season. The team was lacking in any good bench players, and so bringing him in then was a good idea. His usage rate was really high.

Only anecdotal, but some LSU fans say he doesn't process the game that well and gets lost. Definitely Lonnie vibes there. Unlike Lonnie, he is a big event creator on defense and doesn't lack in confidence. Lonnie is fearful of making mistakes; Eason is like a bowling ball knocking into everything.

[Mr. Body]

Trayce Jackson-Davis has been a hot topic this week on twitter, with a bunch of well known draft analysts talking about him. Two weeks ago he wasn't even listed in the top 60 of most mocks.

That's a bit too bad, as a bargain, but it was unlikely teams would continue sleeping on him. Again, I project him only as a spot starter at best, but I'd definitely take him on the team.

[exstatic]

He came off the bench, I believe, because he fouled a whole effing lot. He fouled out of like six games this season. The team was lacking in any good bench players, and so bringing him in then was a good idea. His usage rate was really high.

Only anecdotal, but some LSU fans say he doesn't process the game that well and gets lost. Definitely Lonnie vibes there. Unlike Lonnie, he is a big event creator on defense and doesn't lack in confidence. Lonnie is fearful of making mistakes; Eason is like a bowling ball knocking into everything.

That’s a trait that scouts have been focused on for 2-3 years, processor speed. I can’t tell you how many times Lonnie catches a pass, and freezes. Even a half second gives a committed defender a chance to recover. It’s also not something that can be taught. You either have that quick reaction speed, or you don’t. I remember Vassell being rated highly, and that this was one of the reasons he was an elite help defender. He saw rotations before they needed to happen.

[R. DeMurre]

That’s a trait that scouts have been focused on for 2-3 years, processor speed. I can’t tell you how many times Lonnie catches a pass, and freezes. Even a half second gives a committed defender a chance to recover. It’s also not something that can be taught. You either have that quick reaction speed, or you don’t. I remember Vassell being rated highly, and that this was one of the reasons he was an elite help defender. He saw rotations before they needed to happen.


Very true, and the other thing I noticed watching Lonnie this year is that he's a ball-watcher to a pretty exaggerated extreme. When shots go up, he often freezes in place instead of positioning himself for a potential rebound or kickout on a miss.

[Mr. Body]

That’s a trait that scouts have been focused on for 2-3 years, processor speed. I can’t tell you how many times Lonnie catches a pass, and freezes. Even a half second gives a committed defender a chance to recover. It’s also not something that can be taught. You either have that quick reaction speed, or you don’t. I remember Vassell being rated highly, and that this was one of the reasons he was an elite help defender. He saw rotations before they needed to happen.

Jeremy Sochan. Just saying.

[PhantomDashCam]

https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/lists/nba-draft-combine-elite-camp-invitations/

Please let there be a Dyson Daniels V Blake Wesley team scrimmage…


The projected first-round picks that have earned a combine invitation:

Player
Previous


Dyson Daniels
NBA G League Ignite


David Roddy
Colorado State


Blake Wesley
Notre Dame


Jaylin Williams
Arkansas




The projected second-round picks that have earned a combine invitation:


Player
Previous


Dominick Barlow
Overtime Elite


Julian Champagnie
St. John’s


Max Christie
Michigan State


Moussa Diabate
Michigan


Keon Ellis
Alabama


Ron Harper Jr.
Rutgers


Jake LaRavia
Wake Forest


Josh Minott
Memphis


Andrew Nembhard
Gonzaga


Ryan Rollins
Toledo


Dereon Seabron
NC State


Terquavion Smith
NC State


Alondes Williams
Wake Forest

[PhantomDashCam]

1522584115714961409
Hang on, I thought he was returning to school??

If he’s in this draft, could get very interesting…

[R. DeMurre]

https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/lists/nba-draft-combine-elite-camp-invitations/

Please let there be a Dyson Daniels V Blake Wesley team scrimmage…


David Roddy is such an interesting player-- looks like a fullback on the basketball court but is surprisingly nimble for his size. He's listed at 6'6" with a 6'11" wingspan & 255 lbs, but we'll see during the combine if those numbers are accurate. His shooting was incredible last year. The most optimistic take on him is he could be a Zion lite .... in impact and weight.

[rjv]

https://therookiewire.usatoday.com/lists/nba-draft-combine-elite-camp-invitations/

Please let there be a Dyson Daniels V Blake Wesley team scrimmage…

i'll be paying close attention to dyson daniels, keon ellis, LaRavia and Terquavion Smith. Roddy is also intriguing.

[exstatic]

1522584115714961409
Hang on, I thought he was returning to school??

If he’s in this draft, could get very interesting…

I think he’s declared, but not hired an agent.

[PhantomDashCam]

David Roddy is such an interesting player-- looks like a fullback on the basketball court but is surprisingly nimble for his size. He's listed at 6'6" with a 6'11" wingspan & 255 lbs, but we'll see during the combine if those numbers are accurate. His shooting was incredible last year. The most optimistic take on him is he could be a Zion lite .... in impact and weight.

He was a real tough evaluation for me personally. Love your assessment though.
The guy can clearly play at a high level, I just wonder what his true position is and is he better served playing O/S initially?

Brief Zion opinion - If I’m the Pelicans, I’m gauging trade value on that guy right now... I’m not sure where he fits on both sides of the ball and I’d feel more comfortable putting the ball in CJ or Ingrams’ hands due to their commitment to the franchise/style of play.

[R. DeMurre]

i'll be paying close attention to dyson daniels, keon ellis, LaRavia and Terquavion Smith. Roddy is also intriguing.


LaRavia's my favorite sleeper so far-- highest ORtg, lowest DRtg, & best BPM on his Wake Forest team, which went 25-10, and he accomplished that on a 20% usage rate. He reminds me a lot of Franz Wagner in that sense, a quintessential glue guy who does a little bit of everything. I think a guy like Banchero's defensive rating might be a little suspect because it was 3rd best on a good team that included Mark Williams. (not saying LaRavia>Banchero, just pointing out different contexts)

LaRavia's also an unusual intersection of experience (3 yrs in college) and youth (still 20).

[R. DeMurre]

He was a real tough evaluation for me personally. Love your assessment though.
The guy can clearly play at a high level, I just wonder what his true position is and is he better served playing O/S initially?

Brief Zion opinion - If I’m the Pelicans, I’m gauging trade value on that guy right now... I’m not sure where he fits on both sides of the ball and I’d feel more comfortable putting the ball in CJ or Ingrams’ hands due to their commitment to the franchise/style of play.


Tough call on Zion. When he's healthy, his impact is impressive... but will he be able to stay healthy? I like him, but his health is more suspect than Holmgren's, because he's been injured so frequently, in high school, college, and the NBA. Holmgren's supposed injury risks are entirely speculative. Be funny if the Pelicans got Roddy with a 2nd round pick and paired them up! Love that entire New Orleans team.

[BackHome]

Is his new contract coming up like 200 million a year?

[jjspur]

LaRavia's my favorite sleeper so far-- highest ORtg, lowest DRtg, & best BPM on his Wake Forest team, which went 25-10, and he accomplished that on a 20% usage rate. He reminds me a lot of Franz Wagner in that sense, a quintessential glue guy who does a little bit of everything. I think a guy like Banchero's defensive rating might be a little suspect because it was 3rd best on a good team that included Mark Williams. (not saying LaRavia>Banchero, just pointing out different contexts)

LaRavia's also an unusual intersection of experience (3 yrs in college) and youth (still 20).

I've seen videos of a lot of players and they are basically highlights of them dunking in practice not always in games. Watching Wake Forrest games, I came away rather impressed with LaRavia. Seems he's got the size and has a pretty decent shot as well. He has a very good read of the game flow. I would really like it if the spurs could draft him in the 2nd round, but I get the feeling that his stock will improve the closer we get to the actual draft possibly into the late first round. Don't know what the spurs would do with the 25th pick after possibly selecting 2 players. Well if they decide to trade the 20th pick since it has more value then the 25th. I'd take LaRavia with the 25th. We need size and we need shooting. He can do both. We can draft and stash in the second round as a backup plan.

[BackHome]

Tankathon finally had a recent update they have us picking the following:

9. Daniels
20. Jovic
25. Liddell
38. David Roddy

Note - They have Sochan going before Duran at pick 10 and Dieng at 16

[Degoat]

Johnny Davis is still my favorite at the 9th pick but if Dyson Daniels is a legit 6’8 he might rise up my board here pretty soon tbh

[BatManu20]

I prefer Davis but I think Spurs would take Dyson over him if it were between the two. Davis could easily be gone by the time we’re on the clock though. Dyson would be a solid consolation prize.


1516848328046116865

[JPB]

Tankathon finally had a recent update they have us picking the following:

9. Daniels
20. Jovic
25. Liddell
38. David Roddy

Note - They have Sochan going before Duran at pick 10 and Dieng at 16

Lol

[FutureMan]

Tankathon finally had a recent update they have us picking the following:

9. Daniels
20. Jovic
25. Liddell
38. David Roddy

Note - They have Sochan going before Duran at pick 10 and Dieng at 16


Dieng really is all over the place in mock drafts. I’ve seen him as high as a lottery pick to as low as a high second rounder.

[Mr. Body]

Tankathon finally had a recent update they have us picking the following:

9. Daniels
20. Jovic
25. Liddell
38. David Roddy

Note - They have Sochan going before Duran at pick 10 and Dieng at 16

They seem to be taking team needs into account. Their big board is different than their mocks. For shits and giggles:

David Roddy - I like this pick in the 2nd round. Crafty, skilled players can survive despite physical limitations - the Jared Dudleys of the world. A hard worker off the bench who can jump in to contribute.

EJ Liddell - I'm not a fan of undersized OSU players, especially bigs, but am coming around on him a bit. Scouts told him to develop his 3 and shotblocking and he did. Feels like he overlaps Keldon a good bit.

Nicola Jovic - No real interest in him unless they're just punting a draft and stash. I really don't want players who suck on defense, despite some real offensive skills. There have to be better stashes.

Dyson Daniels - A player who seems to do a number of things pretty well, but shooting concerns. He's really moving up, his defense looks very promising, but ultimately he feels like a bigger, less fleet Dejounte.

And I'd definitely take Sochan above Duren.

[PhantomDashCam]

1522553080738426882

It was Bryan K who had an interview last year with Josh Primo pre-draft too.

Some Spurs-type quotes:


No matter where he ends up, Miller told For The Win he is looking for a place that holds him accountable, and he is also seeking a great developmental program with a coaching staff that has his best interests in mind.



Although his form isn’t replicable and rarely looks the same two attempts in a row, many talent evaluators tend to buy his shooting touch. He is a far more willing shooter than most prospects of his size.“The shot is going to change. Whoever gets him is going to fix it,” added the scout, who knows that NBA teams have planned development coaches and shooting specialists to work on these types of issues. “His shot is the least of my concerns.”
Even without perfect mechanics, you’ll notice the confidence with which he shoots his jumper.

[tonight...you]

1522553080738426882

It was Bryan K who had an interview last year with Josh Primo pre-draft too.

Some Spurs-type quotes:
*He wants the Spurs to develop him so he can go to LA on a monster contract via sign and trade that he demands.


*tongue in cheek, but likely

[KingKev]

One young Canadian in need of development is enough thanks.

[CGD]

One young Canadian in need of development is enough thanks.

Serious question: what is up with the proliferation of young basketball talent out of Canada these day? Is there a golden age of basketball going on right now, or is this about American kids finding a workaround to the college thing?

Canada also has a decent National soccer side now , which is the first time I’ve ever seen that in decades of following that sport.

[RC_Drunkford]

1522553080738426882

It was Bryan K who had an interview last year with Josh Primo pre-draft too.

Some Spurs-type quotes:

mocked in the 30s, wouldn't mind taking him with the Lakers 2nd

[exstatic]

mocked in the 30s, wouldn't mind taking him with the Lakers 2nd

If he does well at the combine, he could go late lottery. The mocks a month from now will look nothing like the mocks today, and the actual draft will wipe its ass with both.

[RC_Drunkford]

If he does well at the combine, he could go late lottery. The mocks a month from now will look nothing like the mocks today, and the actual draft will wipe its ass with both.


doesn't matter we got 3 picks. If the Spurs want him they gonna get him. My hope is mainly on us moving into the top 4 with some lottery luck. That would be a game changer, but otherwise the Spurs scouting department needs to strike gold

[Degoat]

I’m starting to get back on the Eason or Sochan wagon with number the 9 pick, Draft a team need and then with the other two picks swing for high upside guys

[BackHome]

If he does well at the combine, he could go late lottery. The mocks a month from now will look nothing like the mocks today, and the actual draft will wipe its ass with both.

Yeah, if you have a lot of potential teams will definitely draft you a lot sooner then people think in mocks - as far as Miller I think he is a legit 6'11 and his hand size is ridiculous 10.5 inches to go with his standing reach of 9 feet. Besides Chet he is the next Unicorn but this Unicorn will take easily two or three years of being on a good development team before you see any fruit.

I really want the Spurs to start going after size and speed so I like Tari, Sochan, Dieng, Duren, Miller, Procida, and Josh Minott

[BackHome]

I prefer Davis but I think Spurs would take Dyson over him if it were between the two. Davis could easily be gone by the time we’re on the clock though. Dyson would be a solid consolation prize.


1516848328046116865

Nice find Bat - If he is a legit 6'8 that will I think put him in the top 10

[BackHome]

There is only 5 players I do not want us to draft and those are:

Griffin - Injury prone
Baldwin - Injury prone and I think he does not have that competitive fire
TyTy - Not impressed
Chandler - Not impressed
Jovic - I really liked him early but the more I see of his defense the more I don't like

[KingKev]

Serious question: what is up with the proliferation of young basketball talent out of Canada these day? Is there a golden age of basketball going on right now, or is this about American kids finding a workaround to the college thing?

Canada also has a decent National soccer side now , which is the first time I’ve ever seen that in decades of following that sport.

Basketball is HUGE here now. I grew up in the 90s in Toronto and before the Raps we only got 1 game a week Sundays on NBA on NBC and only after Superbowl. These days basketball is just as popular as hockey.

The Vince Carter Toronto Raptors era inspired alot of youth here and we are only now seeing the result of kids who had a ball in their hand from near birth. Our programs have come along way.

[JPB]

1522553080738426882

It was Bryan K who had an interview last year with Josh Primo pre-draft too.

Some Spurs-type quotes:

Twitter hype... Gimme an interview, I'll praise your ass.

I mean the kid might be legit but all anybody got is a couple of staged, meaningless short practice segments and a couple of Twitter "experts" calling him "intriguing"... Should withdraw from the draft IMO.

[exstatic]

Twitter hype... Gimme an interview, I'll praise your ass.

I mean the kid might be legit but all anybody got is a couple of staged, meaningless short practice segments and a couple of Twitter "experts" calling him "intriguing"... Should withdraw from the draft IMO.

It would actually be colossally stupid to withdraw from the draft before the combine. He and his agent will get legit feedback, and if he isn’t slated to go mid first or higher at the end of the combine, THEN you withdraw, having planted the seed for next year.

[The Truth #6]

mocked in the 30s, wouldn't mind taking him with the Lakers 2nd

So then we’ll pick him 9th?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

So then we’ll pick him 9th?

Might have to. I think OKC is a realistic landing spot for him with their second lottery pick. If he impresses in the combine and workouts, that is.

[Twisted_Dawg]

So then we’ll pick him 9th?

Only after his agent calls RC and tells him other teams are interested in drafting the kid high.

[The Truth #6]

Only after his agent calls RC and tells him other teams are interested in drafting the kid high.

Sounds like it’s a done deal. Should we close the thread and move on to other issues? Ha.

[mo7888]

Portland is promoting Joe Cronin who's vowed to build around Dame to GM. I think this means the odds that they draft a more mature player or trade the pick increases significantly.

[rjv]

https://gleague.nba.com/news/nba-g-league-announces-field-of-44-draft-prospects-for-2022-nba-g-league-elite-camp-in-chicago/

lots of 2nd round and free agent fodder.

[mudd]

Canadian Bennedick Mathurin is nba ready and would make Sean happy. Would not be bad at 9.

[BatManu20]

Twitter hype... Gimme an interview, I'll praise your ass.

I mean the kid might be legit but all anybody got is a couple of staged, meaningless short practice segments and a couple of Twitter "experts" calling him "intriguing"... Should withdraw from the draft IMO.

From the article:



Miller is currently working out in California, preparing for G League Elite Camp (May 13-15) or the NBA Draft Combine (May 16-22). Both events are in Chicago. If he wants to play into the mystique, he may just participate in measurements and interviews with select teams while there.


Hopefully we’ll have more footage of him in the next couple weeks. If he sits those out, then that’s a red flag imo and will be disappointing.

[BatManu20]

Also from the same article that catches your attention:



Some of his measurements will help his draft stock. He has massive hands that, at 10.5 inches (https://twitter.com/wesblairbrown/status/1511367528294989826), are as wide (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10KairkGJLeB_FsDbZB_om_az8jwuZCQZEEEWfE-Gt4o/edit#gid=0&fvid=208595013) as 7-foot-6 big man Tacko Fall’s. At 9-foot, Miller has the same standing reach that Anthony Davis did before he was selected at No. 1 overall in 2012.


Those are impressive measurements. I do think his billed height of 6’11 is a little generous. Looks closer to 6’10 to me. Will be interested to see his official measurements at the combine.

[PhantomDashCam]

1524064748970598400

Pure speculation but getting an idea/baseline of tall wings in the draft. Barlow looks eerily similar in body type/skill set as Ousmane Dieng…

1489997068148039681

[tonight...you]

Also from the same article that catches your attention:





Those are impressive measurements. I do think his billed height of 6’11 is a little generous. Looks closer to 6’10 to me. Will be interested to see his official measurements at the combine.

You can see a 1 inch difference from anecdotal photos and videos from multiple angles and movement?
Damn man! You're like... the military industrial complex wants to test your eyes!

[duncan2150]

https://twitter.com/JillAdge/status/1524111187603951617

Kings is weird but listen. One of my favorite if we stay at 9.

[BatManu20]

6’2 combo guard. Average athlete. Just what the Spurs need. He can shoot it though. Could maybe be our Payton Pritchard lol.

Shot 42% from 3 on 6 attempts/per.

1524127895588855811

pdAp7PNM5Ug

[rascal]

Weird looking throw it up shot when he drives to the basket. 6'2 guard lacking athleticism, pass.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/JillAdge/status/1524111187603951617

Kings is weird but listen. One of my favorite if we stay at 9.

He’s begging to be drafted by the Spurs :lmao

[KingKev]

6’2 combo guard. Average athlete. Just what the Spurs need. He can shoot it though. Could maybe be our Payton Pritchard lol.

Shot 42% from 3 on 6 attempts/per.

1524127895588855811

pdAp7PNM5Ug

With the 9th pick in the 2022 NBA Draft, the San Antonio Sours select….

Likely a conservative mormon so probably not a Pop kind of guy hopefully.

[BatManu20]

With the 9th pick in the 2022 NBA Draft, the San Antonio Sours select….

Likely a conservative mormon so probably not a Pop kind of guy hopefully.

:lol

[Degoat]

The kings answer is weird af, he probably knows the highest he can go in the draft is that kings pick at number 7 so threw that out there lol Daniels is one of the guys I wouldn’t mind at 9. Johnny Davis is my fav still tho

[scott]

https://twitter.com/JillAdge/status/1524111187603951617

Kings is weird but listen. One of my favorite if we stay at 9.

We're totally drafting this guy, aren't we?

[scott]

The kings answer is weird af, he probably knows the highest he can go in the draft is that kings pick at number 7 so threw that out there lol Daniels is one of the guys I wouldn’t mind at 9. Johnny Davis is my fav still tho

At first it sounded like he thought the Sacramento Spurs were a team lol

[Degoat]

Spurs worked out Harrison Ingram too, more people might be familiar with him.

[BatManu20]

Looks like all the projected lottery picks will be there + Leonard Miller. Good stuff.


1524194179726942208

[BatManu20]

Other notable names I’m looking forward to:

Jake LaRavia
Jaylin Williams
MarJon Beauchamp
Blake Wesley
Patrick Baldwin Jr.
Wendell Moore
Kofi Cockburn
David Roddy
Justin Lewis

[scott]

6’2 combo guard. Average athlete. Just what the Spurs need. He can shoot it though. Could maybe be our Payton Pritchard lol.

Shot 42% from 3 on 6 attempts/per.

1524127895588855811

pdAp7PNM5Ug

Wanted Banchero, got Barcello. It's like Zollins pt 2

[Ignazzz]

So Jovic not Jokic made a day

[Atl Spur]

Spurs worked out Harrison Ingram too, more people might be familiar with him.

Nice piece….

[DPG21920]

I would love for SA to get Sochan and Eason if they don’t land a top 4 pick. Use 9 to pick one of them, then also use 20, 25 and players to move up and get the other.

[bluebellmaniac]

So Jovic not Jokic made a day

What happened?

[rascal]

I would love for SA to get Sochan and Eason if they don’t land a top 4 pick. Use 9 to pick one of them, then also use 20, 25 and players to move up and get the other.

1. J Smith
2.Holmgren
3.Branchero
4.Ivey
5.Sharpe
6.Murray
7.Griffin
8.Mathurin
9.Duren
10. J Davis

So you would take Sochan over two of these guys. Which ones?

I wouldn't take Sochan over Ogbaji.

[Mr. Body]

I would love for SA to get Sochan and Eason if they don’t land a top 4 pick. Use 9 to pick one of them, then also use 20, 25 and players to move up and get the other.

What's kinda interesting is they both won Sixth Man of the Year in their respective conferences. I would definitely take Sochan at 9 or 10. Eason is a wild card to me. I could see him driving coaches crazy but also making impacts. I could also see him getting tabbed before Sochan.

[JPB]

https://twitter.com/JillAdge/status/1524111187603951617

Kings is weird but listen. One of my favorite if we stay at 9.

Looks poised and over himself... SPURS!!

[The Truth #6]

Stereotypical Spurs picks would be: Sochan, Johnny Davis, Dyson Daniels, Keegan Murray?

[Uriel]

1522553080738426882

It was Bryan K who had an interview last year with Josh Primo pre-draft too.

Some Spurs-type quotes:
I wonder what SpursTalk’s reaction would be to drafting a guy with cornrows named Leonard.

[KingKev]

I wonder what SpursTalk’s reaction would be to drafting a guy with cornrows named Leonard.

He rocks braids.

[BatManu20]

6’8 Defensive minded wing who averaged 10/7/3 as a Freshman at Stanford this season, but on 39% shooting, including 31% from 3.

1524384681512341504


qSfrPTBkIOk

[BatManu20]

1524108628046667776

[The Truth #6]

6’8 Defensive minded wing who averaged 10/7/3 as a Freshman at Stanford this season, but on 39% shooting, including 31% from 3.

1524384681512341504


qSfrPTBkIOk

I mentioned him about a month ago. He seems like a Spurs type of pick. Good skills but if I remember correctly, very poor athlete. But I need to double check that.

[rascal]

I mentioned him about a month ago. He seems like a Spurs type of pick. Good skills but if I remember correctly, very poor athlete. But I need to double check that.

Why are the poor athletes always a Spur's type of pick?

Need to get away from that type of thinking.

[KingKev]

1524108628046667776

Pls ffs no.

[KingKev]

Why are the poor athletes always a Spur's type of pick?

Need to get away from that type of thinking.

Poor/less skilled athletes are 100x more likely to do what https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/blob:https://www.spurstalk.com/a4af801a-d536-452f-8177-c55ce3c856b1Pop says.

[wildbill2u]

He came off the bench, I believe, because he fouled a whole effing lot. He fouled out of like six games this season. The team was lacking in any good bench players, and so bringing him in then was a good idea. His usage rate was really high.

Only anecdotal, but some LSU fans say he doesn't process the game that well and gets lost. Definitely Lonnie vibes there. Unlike Lonnie, he is a big event creator on defense and doesn't lack in confidence. Lonnie is fearful of making mistakes; Eason is like a bowling ball knocking into everything.

Getting lost? Bowling ball knocking into everything? Damn, he sounds like someone we know except we don't have to teach him height.:clap

[duncan2150]

I mentioned him about a month ago. He seems like a Spurs type of pick. Good skills but if I remember correctly, very poor athlete. But I need to double check that.

Yes not a big athlet but a smart player who can do a little Big of everything.

Still young but i may have other prospects at 20/25.

[wildbill2u]

That’s a trait that scouts have been focused on for 2-3 years, processor speed. I can’t tell you how many times Lonnie catches a pass, and freezes. Even a half second gives a committed defender a chance to recover. It’s also not something that can be taught. You either have that quick reaction speed, or you don’t. I remember Vassell being rated highly, and that this was one of the reasons he was an elite help defender. He saw rotations before they needed to happen.

He's not a guard for Christ's Sake. Why do you compare his BBIQ to Lonnie when we have someone else who has some similar problems on defense that has difficulties playing his position (PF). You are a smart guy. How about some discussion comparing him to our major tweener problem, Keldon.

[wildbill2u]

That’s a trait that scouts have been focused on for 2-3 years, processor speed. I can’t tell you how many times Lonnie catches a pass, and freezes. Even a half second gives a committed defender a chance to recover. It’s also not something that can be taught. You either have that quick reaction speed, or you don’t. I remember Vassell being rated highly, and that this was one of the reasons he was an elite help defender. He saw rotations before they needed to happen.

He's not a guard for Christ's Sake. Why do you compare his BBIQ to Lonnie when we have someone else who has some similar problems on defense that has difficulties playing his position (PF). You are a smart guy. How about some discussion comparing him to our major tweener problem, Keldon.

[DPG21920]

1. J Smith
2.Holmgren
3.Branchero
4.Ivey
5.Sharpe
6.Murray
7.Griffin
8.Mathurin
9.Duren
10. J Davis

So you would take Sochan over two of these guys. Which ones?

I wouldn't take Sochan over Ogbaji.

Outside of the top 4, I am fine with Sochan. I know there’s arguments for others, just saying I dont like anyone enough to value them too much over Sochan (despite knowing 90% I will be wrong in hindsight)

[duncan2150]

https://twitter.com/Mike_Schmitz/status/1524403131379073024

Don't know too much about jalen Williams until a few weeks ago,. He had some big buzz from scouts in the US.

Was talking with a French scout today who follows the draft process and the NCAA , he said that he's one of the best wing defensively in this draft( waw guarding smaller players as histoire team played tall ball), plus the fact that he's good on offense.

[Atl Spur]

Sochan…. Maybe he can play some 3 for us

[exstatic]

He's not a guard for Christ's Sake. Why do you compare his BBIQ to Lonnie when we have someone else who has some similar problems on defense that has difficulties playing his position (PF). You are a smart guy. How about some discussion comparing him to our major tweener problem, Keldon.

What part of "Lonnie freezes when he catches the ball" gives you even a remote idea that I was talking about his defensive problems? That's a whole different issue, but not what I was addressing.

[TD 21]

Short of obviously moving into the top 4 (which isn't happening), this draft will be a success if . . .

1) They trade up for Murray or if/when necessary Mathurin (I'd include Sharpe, but apparently that's not happening). Unlike the rest of the usual suspects, even if they never offer much in the way of being able to create their own shot, they at least have a clearer path to 3 and D roles.

2) Failing that, they shop the pick, among other assets, for a quality young veteran whose signed long term.

[The Truth #6]

Loaded question, but what players would be more likely to be hated at #9? This may be easier to agree on.

AJ Griffin (seems almost unanimously derided)
Jalen Duren (a divided pick)
Agbaji (seems like a clear a reach)
Someone mocked in the 20s.
?

[Mr. Body]

Loaded question, but what players would be more likely to be hated at #9? This may be easier to agree on.

AJ Griffin (seems almost unanimously derided)
Jalen Duren (a divided pick)
Agbaji (seems like a clear a reach)
Someone mocked in the 20s.
?

If it's someone perceived as both a reach and a project, like an Ousmane Dieng.

[PhantomDashCam]

https://twitter.com/Mike_Schmitz/status/1524403131379073024?t=zZOTH9uWyqu-WU5248RcQg&s=08

Don't know too much about jalen Williams until a few weeks ago,. He had some big buzz from scouts in the US.

Was talking with a French scout today who follows the draft process and the NCAA , he said that he's one of the best wing defensively in this draft( waw guarding smaller players as histoire team played tall ball), plus the fact that he's good on offense.

:tu Yeah in the last few days his name seems to be everywhere. I love what I'm seeing from this guy.

This was a really interesting read...

https://lakersdraft.substack.com/p/my-watch-has-begun?s=r


He has been listed on mock drafts as a mid-2nd rounder multiple times, but what kind of second rounder is wing-sized, initiates the offense, shoots 44% of his total field goal attempts at the rim, and has a 65/40/40/80 (rim, 2pt, 3pt, FT) (http://www.hoop-math.com/SantaClara2022.php) shooting profile? There are no 2nd rounders like that and if I simply read the statistical profile, I would have thought he was an edge lottery player.

Seems like his game is tailor made for the combine too...


https://youtu.be/ioGwhFRCzgg

[tonight...you]

:tu Yeah in the last few days his name seems to be everywhere. I love what I'm seeing from this guy.

This was a really interesting read...

https://lakersdraft.substack.com/p/my-watch-has-begun?s=r



Seems like his game is tailor made for the combine too...


https://youtu.be/ioGwhFRCzgg
Intriguing.

[PhantomDashCam]

Loaded question, but what players would be more likely to be hated at #9? This may be easier to agree on.

AJ Griffin (seems almost unanimously derided)
Jalen Duren (a divided pick)
Agbaji (seems like a clear a reach)
Someone mocked in the 20s.
?

I think we'll have to wait to see what the Spurs do with the rest of the draft to judge/overreact in a manner consistent with the SpursTalk experience :lol

If we somehow keep all four picks, and a player isn't taller than 6'4" from any of them...

https://c.tenor.com/wzhm-qaENZAAAAAM/just-makes-me-want-to-burn-this-motherfucker-down.gif

[BacktoBasics]

Is there any footage that shows us that Sochan is anything but another variation of Kyle Anderson. He’s smooth but he looks slow and lacks explosiveness. I see that he’s probably got more going for him than Anderson but it seems like a real stretch at 9 considering how badly we need an athletic big.

[duncan2150]

Is there any footage that shows us that Sochan is anything but another variation of Kyle Anderson. He’s smooth but he looks slow and lacks explosiveness. I see that he’s probably got more going for him than Anderson but it seems like a real stretch at 9 considering how badly we need an athletic big.

he's nowhere near Kyle Anderson in term of athletism, where do you see that ? he's a good athlet. Don't think he's a reach and he will fill in a need in this roster as an SF/PF who plays big D. I think he's got plenty of uspide also in the offensive end.

[Mr. Body]

Is there any footage that shows us that Sochan is anything but another variation of Kyle Anderson. He’s smooth but he looks slow and lacks explosiveness. I see that he’s probably got more going for him than Anderson but it seems like a real stretch at 9 considering how badly we need an athletic big.

Literally any footage shows he's not Kyle Anderson.

[Maddog]

I mentioned him about a month ago. He seems like a Spurs type of pick. Good skills but if I remember correctly, very poor athlete. But I need to double check that.

Several sites mention this upfront

[The Truth #6]

Is there any footage that shows us that Sochan is anything but another variation of Kyle Anderson. He’s smooth but he looks slow and lacks explosiveness. I see that he’s probably got more going for him than Anderson but it seems like a real stretch at 9 considering how badly we need an athletic big.

I think Harrison Ingram is the better Kyle Anderson comp. Combo forward with great passing, solid defense, but fairly slow twitch.