De'Aaron Fox Rumors Suggest a Possible Trade to The Spurs

[mo7888]

Dream scenario

Fox + Huerter + Len for
Barnes + Collins + Jones + Branham, worst of SA/ATL 25, CHI 25, ATL 27, SAC 31 swap; CHA 25 / SRPs to seal the deal.

Wright does a great job tightening the screws with a massive assist from Fox. Kangz convince themselves that HB is a great win-now player (he is), Collins is the backup big they never had, and Tre is an intriguing speedy backup PG for injury insurance & expiring if it doesn’t work out. And Branham is a low-cost shooter if Dougie leaves…

We essentially send all of our kitchen scraps out. No more Collins + Branham, and we can use Huerter and Lee.

Again, a dream scenario, but I am putting it into the universe.

Barnes can't be included in a trade going to Sacramento

[quentin_compson]

Barnes can't be included in a trade going to Sacramento

Yeah, I just wanted to point that out as well. Someone actually pointed it out ten or so pages back, but it probably got lost in the shuffle.
Since the Kings want to make the playoffs, I wonder if they would really be interested in Castle as the main player they would be getting back in a Fox trade. I also kind of doubt that the whole league is as high on Castle as most of the people here on ST are. If they want a player that can contribute right away, Vassell would make much more sense for the Kings than Castle.

Edit: The Kings wanting to make the playoffs is also why I don't think the Vecenie trade involving the Pistons is realistic. Getting Tre Jones and Mamu doesn't move the needle for Sacramento. If Barnes gets rerouted from the Pistons to the Kings in the aftermath, then okay, that would be a different matter.

[mo7888]

Yeah, I just wanted to point that out as well. Someone actually pointed it out ten or so pages back, but it probably got lost in the shuffle.
Since the Kings want to make the playoffs, I wonder if they would really be interested in Castle as the main player they would be getting back in a Fox trade. I also kind of doubt that the whole league is as high on Castle as most of the people here on ST are. If they want a player that can contribute right away, Vassell would make much more sense for the Kings than Castle.

I definitely prefer to move Devin instead of Castle.

[CGD]

Barnes can't be included in a trade going to Sacramento

Makes sense. It’s probably why i keep seeing him pop up in three way versions of the trade with him going into DETs capspace with added cap relief going to SAC.

[mo7888]

Just looking at the landscape knowing that nobody is going to break the bank for Fox until he says he's open to places other than SA I think my best offer right now would be:

Sac- Devin + Keldon + malaki + our 25 1st + Chi 1st + our 27 1st

SA- Fox + Heurter

I wouldn't quibble over a couple of 2nds added in.

[Seventyniner]

Makes sense. It’s probably why i keep seeing him pop up in three way versions of the trade with him going into DETs capspace with added cap relief going to SAC.

The Pistons version involves the Kings getting a big trade exception that they can carry through next year's trade deadline. They could use that to improve the team beyond the players and picks they get in the Fox trade.

[RC_Drunkford]

this has to be a 3 or 4 team deal with either Cam Johnson or John Collins going to Sacramento. Spurs keep their core guys and send the draft capital over for the Kings to get another starter who's been on their wishlist. Utah or BKLYN get draft compensation and expiring contracts.

[rascal]

this has to be a 3 or 4 team deal with either Cam Johnson or John Collins going to Sacramento. Spurs keep their core guys and send the draft capital over for the Kings to get another starter who's been on their wishlist. Utah or BKLYN get draft compensation and expiring contracts.

I'd rather get rid of some of the players instead of the draft capital. Spurs need to purge most of the roster.

[CGD]

I really want Fox, and I really want Fox paired with Castle.

With that said, with the tailspin both SA and ATL are in… there is no way we should be willing to do a deal that involves both of those picks. Ideally, we send later year picks. After that, if we can get send the worst of, then that’s okay. After that, maybe it’s just one of the picks with a top 1 protection. Worst case, you agree to just sent one (I’d try to make it ours so we can at least control our own destiny).

Though I’m a proponent of this move, I’m not extremely optimistic that it happens. The vultures are circling. The threats of only signing an extension with San Antonio may not be enough to deter teams from making an offer (doesn’t sound like it so far).

This is where I’m at too. The other factor to consider, though admittedly more attenuated, is the situation with the other players in the 2026 expiring contract class. Most will extend if recent history holds. But, while it’s probably 90% certain that Luka extends with Dallas, you want to be ready in case there are any indications this summer that the parties are apart.

[mo7888]

this has to be a 3 or 4 team deal with either Cam Johnson or John Collins going to Sacramento. Spurs keep their core guys and send the draft capital over for the Kings to get another starter who's been on their wishlist. Utah or BKLYN get draft compensation and expiring contracts.

Utah or Brooklyn would have to take back contracts that aren't expiring this summer and i think they'd be fine with that since their outgoing contracts are for 2 years. In a Brooklyn scenario I'd think they'd get 2 1st and the Kings get 1 and in a Utah scenario I'd think Utah gets 1 1st and the kings get 2 1st's.

[vy65]

I really want Fox, and I really want Fox paired with Castle.

With that said, with the tailspin both SA and ATL are in… there is no way we should be willing to do a deal that involves both of those picks. Ideally, we send later year picks. After that, if we can get send the worst of, then that’s okay. After that, maybe it’s just one of the picks with a top 1 protection. Worst case, you agree to just sent one (I’d try to make it ours so we can at least control our own destiny).

Though I’m a proponent of this move, I’m not extremely optimistic that it happens. The vultures are circling. The threats of only signing an extension with San Antonio may not be enough to deter teams from making an offer (doesn’t sound like it so far).

And, every day that passes is another opportunity for said vultures to swoop in. I’m of the mind that if this doesn’t get done in the next 7 days, it’s not ever going to get done.

[baseline bum]

I'd rather get rid of some of the players instead of the draft capital. Spurs need to purge most of the roster.

By that he means don't get rid of Castle or Vassell and instead use useless players like Collins, Branham, and Keldon Johnson to make up the salary filler.

[LeBowen]

I'm done with Vassell, the package needs to be built around him.
He's losing value with each passing game, won't be worth more than a mediocre FRP this summer.

Hawks are the third team that makes most sense since they own '25 SAC pick and Kings could use Hunter, but I won't go into those details again.

If we look at disgruntled all-star guard trades around the league, going rates are obvious.

Jazz got Sexton, Markkanen, 3 FRPs and 2 swaps for Mitchell who's a better player than Fox.
Those 3 FRPs were bad, but Markkanen and Sexton were great assets.
Devin is worse than either of them, 3 FRPs for a slightly worse player than Mitchell would even it out.

If we include Holiday trade to the Celtics, Blazers got 3 FRPs and 2 swaps for Lillard.
Ayton, Camara, Brogdon and Timelord were the players they ended up with, not much value.
While peak Lillard was a tier above Fox, he was 33 at the time which is a big factor.

[lefty]

Whatever happens, at least he rejected the Lakers :lmao

[CGD]

Source (https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6010644/2024/12/21/deaaron-fox-kings-contract-trade-nba-spurs/)

"Meanwhile, rival executives are monitoring the Fox situation closely and league sources say one team in particular — the San Antonio Spurs — is positioning itself to pursue the Houston native as a possible partner for Victor Wembanyama, should Fox become available. Barring a significant Kings turnaround, others are surely close behind."

Man i feel theyve been cooking this for at least a year

[Dverde]

https://x.com/damienbarling/status/1884972093437366507?s=46

[Dejounte]

https://x.com/damienbarling/status/1884972093437366507?s=46
Who is this rando

[onechance87]

Who is this rando

he was the first guy to report that fox wanted out.Before even sham reported

[LeBowen]

Who is this rando

He's not rando, according to Kings fans he's the local reporter with best sources.
Has a Kings podcast or whatever.

[CorrectCrusader]

Who is this rando

Kings reporter

[TheBallsbreakers]

https://x.com/damienbarling/status/1884972093437366507?s=46
holy shitttt

[Leetonidas]

Hopefully Kangz do right by their guy and trade him where he wants. Spurs probably would've done the same for Kawhi if he hadn't been a giant bitch about it

[mo7888]

He's not rando, according to Kings fans he's the local reporter with best sources.
Has a Kings podcast or whatever.

That sounds like the odds of this deal getting done are going up. Also, you've gotta think if Fox has been planning this for a while now that the Spurs and Klutch have already discussed what compensation to the Kings that SA is comfortable with and Klutch thinks it's doable.

[z0sa]

Spurs need the infusion. C'mon, what's the hold up?

[Ice009]

Hopefully Kangz do right by their guy and trade him where he wants. Spurs probably would've done the same for Kawhi if he hadn't been a giant bitch about it

No, I don't think the Spurs would have wanted to trade Kawhi to LA no matter what. The Lakers are a heated rival and they would have only offered scraps (if you recall, I think they were saying they can just get him for free when he's a free agent), that is, if the Spurs were willing to trade with them, which I don't think the Spurs ever would have been unless the offer was great.

[Leetonidas]

No, I don't think the Spurs would have wanted to trade Kawhi to LA no matter what. The Lakers are a heated rival and they would have only offered scraps (if you recall, I think they were saying they can just get him for free when he's a free agent), that is, if the Spurs were willing to trade with them, which I don't think the Spurs ever would have been unless the offer was great.

At that point they were not a heated rival. The spurs hadn't played a meaningful playoff series against LA since 2008 (2013 was an ass beating). They also ended up trading him for scraps to Toronto in the end anyway. I think if things hadn't been so public the Spurs may have been able to work a deal with LAL or LAC. Him making everything a huge deal in the media only made things worse and probably fueled LAL thinking they had us by the balls

[baseline bum]

https://x.com/damienbarling/status/1884972093437366507?s=46

If that's the case I'm not giving Castle nor the ATL 2025. My best offer is Vassell, 2025 Spurs, 2026 Spurs w/ ATL swap, 2027 ATL, and rip up the 2031 Sac swap. Or they can have the 2025 CHI instead of the 2026 Spurs w/ ATL swap if wanted.

[baseline bum]

At that point they were not a heated rival. The spurs hadn't played a meaningful playoff series against LA since 2008 (2013 was an ass beating). They also ended up trading him for scraps to Toronto in the end anyway. I think if things hadn't been so public the Spurs may have been able to work a deal with LAL or LAC. Him making everything a huge deal in the media only made things worse and probably fueled LAL thinking they had us by the balls

LAL wasn't even offering Ingram IIRC. Offer was something like Julian, Hart, and Deng.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If that's the case I'm not giving Castle nor the ATL 2025. My best offer is Vassell, 2025 Spurs, 2026 Spurs w/ ATL swap, 2027 ATL, and rip up the 2031 Sac swap. Or they can have the 2025 CHI instead of the 2026 Spurs w/ ATL swap if wanted.

Yep if that report is true the price just went down. Less picks, more players.

Send them Tre, Vassell, Collins, 2031 swap back, plus another FRP of ours, take Huerter and Fox.

[TheBallsbreakers]

This feels like the LMA offseason leadup all over again. Cue the "IT'S HAPPENING!!!!" gif or is it too soon?
'

[Leetonidas]

LAL wasn't even offering Ingram IIRC. Offer was something like Julian, Hart, and Deng.

I mean who knows what the actual truth was. But I'm just saying if the whole thing hadn't been so public and Kawhi and his team didn't throw a crybaby fit, Spurs might have been able to quietly work out a deal with LAL or LAC. the other compounding issue was he missed basically an entire season and no one knew wtf was going on with his injury which also severely hampered his trade value

[CGD]

If it doesn’t happen now, it’s gonna be hella uncomfortable for Sacramento the rest of the year.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

He's not rando, according to Kings fans he's the local reporter with best sources.
Has a Kings podcast or whatever.

He might have a podcast but he's the lead ESPN radio reporter on Kings coverage in Sacramento.

As others have mentioned, he's the one who broke that Fox wants out before anyone else. He's connected.

[spurraider21]

Hopefully Kangz do right by their guy and trade him where he wants. Spurs probably would've done the same for Kawhi if he hadn't been a giant bitch about it
spurs didnt for kawhi. portland didnt for dame. the heat wont do so for butler (mostly because sons cant really get it done).

it did happen for AD to the lakers.

teams usually "do right by" a player in these circumstances in sign and trade situations (though the clippers werent cooperating with getting PG13 to GSW)

[Leetonidas]

spurs didnt for kawhi. portland didnt for dame. the heat wont do so for butler (mostly because sons cant really get it done).

it did happen for AD to the lakers.

teams usually "do right by" a player in these circumstances in sign and trade situations (though the clippers werent cooperating with getting PG13 to GSW)

I know. I'm just wishcasting :lol

[Dverde]

I wonder if we can use threats of trading for Fox to get Coby White from the Bulls in a better deal. Bull rather have their pick back then for us to send it to Sacromento. Maybe work a trade to get White to Sac and Fox to SA.

[Jordan Jackson]

Anyone acquired before Victors arrival should be shown the door. There is no “core”. The building of this Spurs team starts with drafting Victor and everything that happens post that draft.

Castle should be safe - plus you want to see him play along side Fox. I wouldn’t be upset if he’s moved though.

[scott]

Dream scenario

Fox + Huerter + Len for
Barnes + Collins + Jones + Branham, worst of SA/ATL 25, CHI 25, ATL 27, SAC 31 swap; CHA 25 / SRPs to seal the deal.

Wright does a great job tightening the screws with a massive assist from Fox. Kangz convince themselves that HB is a great win-now player (he is), Collins is the backup big they never had, and Tre is an intriguing speedy backup PG for injury insurance & expiring if it doesn’t work out. And Branham is a low-cost shooter if Dougie leaves…

We essentially send all of our kitchen scraps out. No more Collins + Branham, and we can use Huerter and Lee.

Again, a dream scenario, but I am putting it into the universe.

Sorry if someone else already responded first, I'm a few pages back and just catching up.

Just wanted to point out that Barnes cannot legally go back to SAC in any trade this season.

Edit: I see now that this was brought up, several times. Haha, sorry.

[lefty]

https://x.com/atthebuzzer1/status/1884357379090759758

[spurraider21]

Fox isn't a notorious lob passer the way CP3 used to be or Trae Young now is. to be fair, he doesnt really have a lob target in sacto

[scott]

A couple of thoughts, for what they are worth (which I remind everyone, is nothing):

1. Interesting to me that now Demar is saying that if Fox is traded that will raise a lot of questions about his future in SAC. DDR said Fox is a huge reason he went to SAC, so if he was gone it would raise questions. SAC may actually view this as an opportunity. Trading Fox will also allow them to move Demar and get off of that mistake and build a more coherent roster. I won't put a lot of effort into options for them, but just off the top of my head Cam Johnson as their starting 3 instead of Demar unlocks a lot for them. A starting unit of Monk/Ellis/Cam/Murray/Sabonis with Vassell as the 6th man works a hell of a lot better than what they have now.

2. SAC is a team like SAS that has extra incentive to "do right" by their guys. It isn't all because the FOs are full of soft bitches, but because as a small market team in a less attractive city, you need that reputation of being player friendly. Not just so you can land big FAs, but so you can land small ones too, and to keep the guys you already have happy and confident to be there in the event they one day need to move on. This certainly works in our favor as SAC may not want to burn Fox and Rich Paul by shipping him off to WAS or some shit. Klutch wants their client out of SAC and to SAS now, and if SAC can help make that happen, I'm sure Klutch will remember that and show appreciation in some way down the line. The NBA isn't different from other businesses, relationships are very important.

[dbestpro]

If we get Fox, all we need is a starting small forward and power forward and a three-point shooting backup for SG.

[The Truth #6]

I think they should do the trade soon if possible while the kings are still winning and think that they don't need him. That could change.

Devin Vassell
Tre Jones
Branham
2 FRPs

[Ice009]

At that point they were not a heated rival. The spurs hadn't played a meaningful playoff series against LA since 2008 (2013 was an ass beating). They also ended up trading him for scraps to Toronto in the end anyway. I think if things hadn't been so public the Spurs may have been able to work a deal with LAL or LAC. Him making everything a huge deal in the media only made things worse and probably fueled LAL thinking they had us by the balls

No, I still don't think the Spurs would have dealt with them. Doesn't matter that they didn't have any heated recent playoffs games. IMO, the only way the Spurs would have done a trade with them is if the offer was lopsided in the Spurs' favor, but that was never going to happen. Even if the offer was fair/even, the Spurs probably still say no to them. Pop was pissed with the Pau Gasol trade. I am certain he did not want to deal with the Lakers or help them in any way at all. To top it off, LA showed real arrogance thinking they can get him from free. At the time, I was actually somewhat happy that he screwed them over and went to the Clippers.

Also, not that my opinion matters at all, but I don't want Stephon in any of these trades at all. Unlike other formers Spurs players that I liked but didn't fully believe in, I believe in Stephon becoming a great player. It might take a bit of time, but I think he can/will get there.

[The Truth #6]

Magic Johnson was the GM at the time and made comments in the media that the Spurs were not negotiating in any good faith. Magic was sort of a moron as a general manager and I think we could have got a good deal so I don't totally buy the idea that they were offering us total scraps, granted the headliner would have been Brandon Ingram but still.

[rjv]

If Vassell is traded, we get a far more reliable scorer, but the question becomes how do we replace that 2nd level scoring that he would have provided? we will need additional scoring to replace him and will also still desperately need a big.

[scott]

No, I still don't think the Spurs would have dealt with them. Doesn't matter that they didn't have any heated recent playoffs games. IMO, the only way the Spurs would have done a trade with them is if the offer was lopsided in the Spurs' favor, but that was never going to happen. Even if the offer was fair/even, the Spurs probably still say no to them. Pop was pissed with the Pau Gasol trade. I am certain he did not want to deal with the Lakers or help them in any way at all. To top it off, LA showed real arrogance thinking they can get him from free. At the time, I was actually somewhat happy that he screwed them over and went to the Clippers.

Also, not that my opinion matters at all, but I don't want Stephon in any of these trades at all. Unlike other formers Spurs players that I liked but didn't fully believe in, I believe in Stephon becoming a great player. It might take a bit of time, but I think he can/will get there.

There is actually a good lesson here about Fox. A lot of folks here are saying "just wait until we can sign him as a FA". Setting aside the fact that it is very unlikely he becomes a FA, even if he did it would be foolish to just assume that it's a lock to get him. It was viewed as a foregone conclusion that Nephew would sign with the Lakers, but then he went to the Clips. Just because Fox wants to come to SA now doesn't mean he won't change his mind.

[z0sa]

Fox for Vassell is an upgrade, but we'll still be facing the same roster construction that doesn't rebound, shoot or defend. It's a step in the right direction but not a huge one, IMHO. At least if we hold onto Vassell, he becomes that clear 3rd option and we can actually score with the best of them. Still would need a stretch 4/5 type to seal up the SL.

[Ice009]

There is actually a good lesson here about Fox. A lot of folks here are saying "just wait until we can sign him as a FA". Setting aside the fact that it is very unlikely he becomes a FA, even if he did it would be foolish to just assume that it's a lock to get him. It was viewed as a foregone conclusion that Nephew would sign with the Lakers, but then he went to the Clips. Just because Fox wants to come to SA now doesn't mean he won't change his mind.

Yep, I agree 100%. If the Spurs want to get him, I wouldn't bank on waiting for him as he could get traded to another team and like it enough to stay there.

Even though Kawhi wanted to go to LA, I think he probably had very, very serious thoughts about staying with the Raptors. At the time, I thought it he should have stayed with the Raptors as they had a great thing going, but unfortunately he wanted to go back home. Lakers completely fucked up and overplayed their hand. Two years of waiting for nothing. Spurs need to think about that if they're serious about adding Fox to the team.

[DPG21920]

There is actually a good lesson here about Fox. A lot of folks here are saying "just wait until we can sign him as a FA". Setting aside the fact that it is very unlikely he becomes a FA, even if he did it would be foolish to just assume that it's a lock to get him. It was viewed as a foregone conclusion that Nephew would sign with the Lakers, but then he went to the Clips. Just because Fox wants to come to SA now doesn't mean he won't change his mind.

I dont think that’s completely accurate. A few of us were hearing it was Clippers all along so it was not “Lakers” per se but “LA area”…but still. Your point remains. But at some point the risk of waiting becomes more than worth it if it means keeping all your assets and getting Fox too vs overpaying.

Luckily I dont really see SA overpaying here….things seem to be shaping up where leverage is being exerted and I dont think Kings are going to get some haul from SA or anyone as long as Rich Paul and Fox are holding firm that its SA or bust

[BatManu20]

Hopefully this goes about as well as Pop's flight out to San Diego to try to convince nephew to stay in SA.

1885034046654140918

[scott]

Fox for Vassell is an upgrade, but we'll still be facing the same roster construction

I agree. Fox shouldn't be viewed as the missing piece, but rather just an upgrade to the existing puzzle. Right now the Spurs really only have 3 starting caliber players (Wemby, CP3, Barnes) on their roster, plus one promising rookie. Still lots of pieces to add, but I think many of those pieces can be attained with SRPs. If I had my way and was building this team... this is what I would do:

Vassell + worst of ATL/SA25, CHI25, the SAC31 swap, as many SRPs as needed (picks may require adjusting, but point is I want to make sure I have one of ATL or SA 25)
Tre Jones and multiple SRPs for Jonas.

We finish the season with this team:

CP3/Castle
Fox/Castle (this is a 3 man guard rotation, which is why you see Castle backing up both positions. Blake would handle any extra minutes as needed)
Champ/Keldon
Barnes/Sochan
Wemby/Jonas

In the offseason, I'm going after Santi Aldama and Jake Laravia from MEM. I'm going to see if CP3 will come back in a backup role, depending on what happens in the draft (I'm assuming we don't land Cooper flag). If CP3 isn't interested in that I see if I can get Coby White from CHI to be my 6th man in the 3-man guard rotation. Let's assume that scenario for now:

Fox/White
Castle/White
Barnes/Champ/Laravia
Santi/Sochan/Laravia
Wemby/Jonas

This is before considering who you might be adding with what will hopefull be a lottery pick. You can substitute Naz Reid for Santi, though I have a feeling he might be harder to get and honestly I think I like Santi better personally, he's just a little more versatile.

[Teamduncan21]

I dont think that’s completely accurate. A few of us were hearing it was Clippers all along so it was not “Lakers” per se but “LA area”…but still. Your point remains. But at some point the risk of waiting becomes more than worth it if it means keeping all your assets and getting Fox too vs overpaying.

Luckily I dont really see SA overpaying here….things seem to be shaping up where leverage is being exerted and I dont think Kings are going to get some haul from SA or anyone as long as Rich Paul and Fox are holding firm that its SA or bust

I recall uncle felt disrespected that Lakers didn't offer the Davis package. Which implies Lakers don't value kawhi as much. That's partly why he went to clippers instead.

At that point a lot of fans are also unwilling to give Ingram. I recall their fans saying why should they give Ingram kuzma and 4 picks if kawhi gonna come anyway. End up he didn't go there.

While I agree not to overpay. Let's not get too cocky too

[Pauleta14]

I think they should do the trade soon if possible while the kings are still winning and think that they don't need him. That could change.

Devin Vassell
Tre Jones
Branham
2 FRPs

We need to keep Vassell if we get Fox.

I know he sucks rn, but he's such a talented shooter, he just needs more spacing and Fox will provide that with his penetrations.

(He also needs to accept his ceiling is elite role player, not "Kobe light" tbh, but just with Fox's arrival, that's the role he'll get by default)

Sochan Keldon Tre Collins Brahman to choose

[spurraider21]

this is still a thing

1885036190128083364

[BatManu20]

We need to keep Vassell if we get Fox.

I know he sucks rn, but he's such a talented shooter, he just needs more spacing and Fox will provide that with his penetrations.

(He also needs to accept his ceiling is elite role player, not "Kobe light" tbh, but just with Fox's arrival, that's the role he'll get by default)

Sochan Keldon Tre Collins Brahman to choose

Sacramento isn't going to trade their franchise player entering his prime for Sochan + picks lol. They also badly need shooting on their roster so Jeremy does very little for them. It would have to be Vassell at the very least, and realistically they will likely demand Castle instead of Vassell + a bunch of FRP's.

[rjv]

this is still a thing

1885036190128083364

i wonder if this is a last second effort to convince Fox to stay.

[Pauleta14]

Sacramento isn't going to trade their franchise player entering his prime for Sochan + picks lol. They also badly need shooting on their roster so Jeremy does very little for them. It would have to be Vassell at the very least, and realistically they will likely demand Castle instead of Vassell + a bunch of FRP's.

Keldon has an attractive decreasing deal and still a good hype around the league
Sochan could be useful with Sabonis's defensive limitations and maybe not too much a liability on offense with a lot of shooters
Tre is an attractive 10M expiring deal to free some cap space next summer

then you add 2-3 1RPs

Keep in mind if Fox tell them "it's only the Spurs or I'm leaving for free in 26", they don't have that much leverage.

[vy65]

this is still a thing

1885036190128083364

SAS Out:
Vassell, Branham, CHI25, SAS25, CHA25, SA27 (swap), SRPs

SAS In:
Fox
Patrick Mills

UTA Out:
John Collins

UTA In:
Vassell, Branham, CHI25, SAS25, CHA25, SA27 (swap), SRPs

SAC Out:
Fox
SAC In
Collins

Could adjust some picks going to SAC instead of UTA

[DPG21920]

SAS Out:
Vassell, Branham, CHI25, SAS25, CHA25, SA27 (swap), SRPs

SAS In:
Fox
Patrick Mills

UTA Out:
John Collins

UTA In:
Vassell, Branham, CHI25, SAS25, CHA25, SA27 (swap), SRPs

SAC Out:
Fox
SAC In
Collins

Could adjust some picks going to SAC instead of UTA

Bruh what??? Lol

[scott]

this is still a thing

1885036190128083364

Feels like the ingredients for a 3 team deal are all here...

https://i.imgflip.com/9iihiu.jpg

[Seventyniner]

A couple of thoughts, for what they are worth (which I remind everyone, is nothing):

1. Interesting to me that now Demar is saying that if Fox is traded that will raise a lot of questions about his future in SAC. DDR said Fox is a huge reason he went to SAC, so if he was gone it would raise questions. SAC may actually view this as an opportunity. Trading Fox will also allow them to move Demar and get off of that mistake and build a more coherent roster. I won't put a lot of effort into options for them, but just off the top of my head Cam Johnson as their starting 3 instead of Demar unlocks a lot for them. A starting unit of Monk/Ellis/Cam/Murray/Sabonis with Vassell as the 6th man works a hell of a lot better than what they have now.

Imagine the meltdown here if both Fox and DDR are traded to the Spurs.

[KingKev]

Keldon has an attractive decreasing deal and still a good hype around the league
Sochan could be useful with Sabonis's defensive limitations and maybe not too much a liability on offense with a lot of shooters
Tre is an attractive 10M expiring deal to free some cap space next summer

then you add 2-3 1RPs

Keep in mind if Fox tell them "it's only the Spurs or I'm leaving for free in 26", they don't have that much leverage.

When you suck at basketball the decreasing contract isn’t attractive just less ugly.

[Uriel]

If reports about Fox only wanting to sign in San Antonio are true, then there is zero incentive to trade for him now. Play out the rest of the season, get a lottery pick for your trouble, participate in the Cooper Flagg lottery sweepstakes, then trade for Fox in the offseason when the asking price will go down and you have will more clarity on what your picks will look like.

[LeBowen]

If Vassell is traded, we get a far more reliable scorer, but the question becomes how do we replace that 2nd level scoring that he would have provided? we will need additional scoring to replace him and will also still desperately need a big.

He's not providing shit, tbh.
8-7 without Vassell.
5-6 when he comes off the bench.
7-10 when he starts.

We're talking about a player who's missed 25% games in his career, never had a single double double, is obviously a negative on defense. Fine, he's a scorer?
Well, he's got 6 games with 30+ points in 268 career games.

Him and Keldon provide absolutely nothing to this team except for empty stats here and there.


Fox for Vassell is an upgrade, but we'll still be facing the same roster construction that doesn't rebound, shoot or defend. It's a step in the right direction but not a huge one, IMHO. At least if we hold onto Vassell, he becomes that clear 3rd option and we can actually score with the best of them. Still would need a stretch 4/5 type to seal up the SL.

As I already wrote, 3pt shooting isn't actually that bad. 6th in attempts and 13th in makes. Could be better, but is fine.
On the other hand, the offense grinds to a halt whenever the set gets broken down and we take bad shots.
It's either Castle or Keldon with low-percentage drives (others can't even get to the rim), Wemby's awnkward isos that usually end in turnovers or everyone chucking contested 3pts because we can't get a better shot.

We need a reliable paint penetrator who can collapse the defense. Fox is one of the best in the league at it and would solve a lot of our issues on offense.
He's not an amazing defender, but definitely better than Devin and they're almost identical in size, despite what official measurements say.

If Devin continues underperforming like this, we'll have to get rid of him pretty soon, he'll be a negative asset.
Our starting lineup with Champagnie was doing just fine.

[Dverde]

Hopefully this goes about as well as Pop's flight out to San Diego to try to convince nephew to stay in SA.

1885034046654140918

How can you say no to that face.

[scott]

Imagine the meltdown here if both Fox and DDR are traded to the Spurs.

Haha.

Honestly though, if DDR were on a better contract (like 2/40), I wouldn't hate it.

CP3
Fox
DDR
Barnes
Wemby

With Castle in the 3 man guard rotation?

Sounds like a much better on the court product than what we've been forced to watch the last 6 years. Short term DDR wouldn't be horrible. I think Chinook (come back, buddy) might like it

[scott]

If reports about Fox only wanting to sign in San Antonio are true, then there is zero incentive to trade for him now. Play out the rest of the season, get a lottery pick for your trouble, participate in the Cooper Flagg lottery sweepstakes, then trade for Fox in the offseason when the asking price will go down and you have will more clarity on what your picks will look like.

I generally agree although there is an important caveat that time does not stand still, and Fox only wanting to sign in San Antonio right now does not mean Fox will only want to sign in San Antonio in 5 months.

[spurraider21]

every time i see vivek's face i think of this old bit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgX1a_NUMFo

based on a true story


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEK_d-SFfCQ

[Dverde]

Spurs played ball on Rich Paul’s request to move Dejounte exactly where he wanted to go. He knows them. He wouldn’t be doing this if the Spurs had no interest.

[scott]

Spurs played ball on Rich Paul’s request to move Dejounte exactly where he wanted to go. He knows them. He wouldn’t be doing this if the Spurs had no interest.

This is the returning of favors I was talking about. It would be wise of SAC to do Rich and his client a solid on their preferred destination, because like Pepperidge Farm, Rich Paul remembers.

[rjv]

He's not providing shit, tbh.
8-7 without Vassell.
5-6 when he comes off the bench.
7-10 when he starts.

We're talking about a player who's missed 25% games in his career, never had a single double double, is obviously a negative on defense. Fine, he's a scorer?
Well, he's got 6 games with 30+ points in 268 career games.

Him and Keldon provide absolutely nothing to this team except for empty stats here and there.



As I already wrote, 3pt shooting isn't actually that bad. 6th in attempts and 13th in makes. Could be better, but is fine.
On the other hand, the offense grinds to a halt whenever the set gets broken down and we take bad shots.
It's either Castle or Keldon with low-percentage drives (others can't even get to the rim), Wemby's awnkward isos that usually end in turnovers or everyone chucking contested 3pts because we can't get a better shot.

We need a reliable paint penetrator who can collapse the defense. Fox is one of the best in the league at it and would solve a lot of our issues on offense.
He's not an amazing defender, but definitely better than Devin and they're almost identical in size, despite what official measurements say.

If Devin continues underperforming like this, we'll have to get rid of him pretty soon, he'll be a negative asset.
Our starting lineup with Champagnie was doing just fine.

you get too emotional sometimes. i'm not advocating to keep him. i'm simply pointing out the obvious. it doesn't matter how many times he's scored more than 30 in his career in regards to this point. the spurs will need to come up with another body who could become that second level scorer. it's not julian, or branham or anyone else. i hope Scott is right and that this player can be found somewhere in the 2nd round.

[scott]

you get too emotional sometimes. i'm not advocating to keep him. i'm simply pointing out the obvious. it doesn't matter how many times he's scored more than 30 in his career in regards to this point. the spurs will need to come up with another body who could become that second level scorer. it's not julian, or branham or anyone else. i hope Scott is right and that this player can be found somewhere in the 2nd round.

One clarification, I'm not suggesting we can get that guy in the second round... I'm saying we can use second rounders to trade for him (or maybe a first, or maybe you draft that guy, or maybe you get him in FA). Lots of different ways to solve that problem (and I agree it's a problem that we need to solve), but it is a solvable problem (and it's one we need to solve anyway, regardless of getting Fox).

I pretty much assume we won't get any worthwhile players with our SRPs. Tre was the last one we drafted who made any kind of contribution to the team, and since then we've basically just punted all of them to the moon or used them on guys like Joel Wisenheimer, Sidy and Harrison Ingram. I'm still pissed we passed up Ajay Mitchell with our SRP last year, he was a guy I really liked. I did not have Jaylen Wells breaking out on my bingo card though (I don't remember anyone here talking about him honestly, kudos to MEM's college scouting dept)

[scott]

Hopefully this goes about as well as Pop's flight out to San Diego to try to convince nephew to stay in SA.

1885034046654140918

To me this says that we shouldn't expect any deal until Sunday at the earliest.

[DPG21920]

Yup. This will drag out until maybe a day or two of deadline Im guessing.

[CGD]

every time i see vivek's face i think of this old bit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgX1a_NUMFo

based on a true story


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEK_d-SFfCQ

Lol! In fairness, go back an look at that draft. That has to be an all time terrible draft once you removed Embiid.

[The Truth #6]

We need to keep Vassell if we get Fox.

I know he sucks rn, but he's such a talented shooter, he just needs more spacing and Fox will provide that with his penetrations.

(He also needs to accept his ceiling is elite role player, not "Kobe light" tbh, but just with Fox's arrival, that's the role he'll get by default)

Sochan Keldon Tre Collins Brahman to choose

It's a fair point. Lack of shooting with Castle and Sochan is not compatible with winning most nights. Fox as #2 would rearrange the alpha hierarchy.

[scott]

Yup. This will drag out until maybe a day or two of deadline Im guessing.

Yeah, and at that point the Spurs may be as much as 8 games under .500 and that could certainly impact how they are feeling about doing anything. Lots of moving parts.

[LeBowen]

i'm simply pointing out the obvious.

The obvious is that Devin isn't providing anything to winning. He just has flashes that keep giving people false hope that he finally put it together.
It's his 5th year and he's still the same player in that regard.
Net rating for everyone averaging more than 10 mpg.

https://i.imgur.com/FBu4ntc.png


I honestly have no idea how to approach this if I'm to make an argument for Devin.
Yes, his rating is a bit lower due to playing more minutes with the bench unit, but that was supposed to be his role.
Remember last summer when we talked about how the likes of Middleton and KD led the bench units since those teams also don't have a real 6th man?
Devin's net rating is passable only when he's playing with our best possible lineup, but it's higher when Champagnie is playing in his place.
They have about the same impact on winning. And Devin is making 10x more money.


it doesn't matter how many times he's scored more than 30 in his career in regards to this point

It actually does because most of our wins are carry jobs by Wemby. We can't expect him to score 25+ every single game while being the best defender in the league.
Devin never rises to occasion when needed.
Last night he was 1-7 from 3PT while the game was close. Had a nice run when we fell behind, but those are empty stats.

He's just a better version of Lonnie with less athleticism.
An aesthetically pleasing scorer who looks good when he has it going, but he doesn't have it going on most nights.


the spurs will need to come up with another body who could become that second level scorer

Most definitely. But Devin isn't that player.


it's not julian

Obviously not. Julian is a very limited player with a very specific skillset which needs to be put to use.
He should be banned from taking any dribbles unless it's a pump fake into open lane drive and he needs to have some more plays called for him.
Even a subpar 3-D guy like Champ is great value for the team in modern NBA.

[LeBowen]

Also forgot to add that it's just sad how Spurs fanbase in general (this forum is the best in that regard) is becoming full of hopeless homers, what happened to us?
For decades we used to laugh at teams desperately trying to win the lottery while PATFO pulled good players out of their ass with late picks.
Now we have people who don't want to trade 6% golden tickets for proven all-stars.
For decades we laughed at empty stats players and fanbases that couldn't look past ppg and counting stats.
Now we're hoping charity cases like Devin will develop into legit players.

This franchise used to be about playing basketball the right way, now it's full of negative IQ charity cases that we used to laugh at.
Second longest playoff drought in the league, ffs.

[spurraider21]

for those who missed it in the long video earlier

1885010092917154118

[rjv]

The obvious is that Devin isn't providing anything to winning. He just has flashes that keep giving people false hope that he finally put it together.
It's his 5th year and he's still the same player in that regard.
Net rating for everyone averaging more than 10 mpg.

https://i.imgur.com/FBu4ntc.png


I honestly have no idea how to approach this if I'm to make an argument for Devin.
Yes, his rating is a bit lower due to playing more minutes with the bench unit, but that was supposed to be his role.
Remember last summer when we talked about how the likes of Middleton and KD led the bench units since those teams also don't have a real 6th man?
Devin's net rating is passable only when he's playing with our best possible lineup, but it's higher when Champagnie is playing in his place.
They have about the same impact on winning. And Devin is making 10x more money.



It actually does because most of our wins are carry jobs by Wemby. We can't expect him to score 25+ every single game while being the best defender in the league.
Devin never rises to occasion when needed.
Last night he was 1-7 from 3PT while the game was close. Had a nice run when we fell behind, but those are empty stats.

He's just a better version of Lonnie with less athleticism.
An aesthetically pleasing scorer who looks good when he has it going, but he doesn't have it going on most nights.



Most definitely. But Devin isn't that player.



Obviously not. Julian is a very limited player with a very specific skillset which needs to be put to use.
He should be banned from taking any dribbles unless it's a pump fake into open lane drive and he needs to have some more plays called for him.
Even a subpar 3-D guy like Champ is great value for the team in modern NBA.

but he is that player. he may not be very good at it (and thus there is no argument in trying to trade him away) but he still, presently, fills that role. he's actually our second option when he should be our fourth. fox would obviously be a solid second (and sometimes first) option but the absence of vassell would mean that we would be in need of another player to fill his role. that is all i am saying. there's no need for a dissertation as a response, or an emotionally fueled generalization about the state of the Spurs fan base.

[LeBowen]

but he is that player. he may not be very good at it (and thus there is no argument in trying to trade him away) but he still, presently, fills that role.

Then this is just a big misunderstading.
When I say he isn't that player it means I don't think he's good enough to be that player for not just us, but any playoff team.
Zach Collins is our backup big, that doesn't mean he's good enough.


he's actually our second option when he should be our fourth

Fourth options are either reliable contributors who aren't awful defensively like Barnes or microwave scorers who either go off or get benched.
Offensive output is the only reason for putting up with someone's bad defense.
Devin wouldn't average more than 15ppg as a fourth option and at that point he's not even worth it when Champagnie averaged 13ppg in that role while he was starting.
We're in serious danger of Devin's contract becoming a negative asset and having to use a FRP to get rid of it.
Odds of that are higher than Devin suddenly becoming a positive contributor in his 6th or whatever year.


fox would obviously be a solid second (and sometimes first) option but the absence of vassell would mean that we would be in need of another player to fill his role.

We were fine without Devin while he was injured and Fox would be a huge firepower improvement.
But as it's been said many times, ideally we get a 6th man to form a three guard rotation with Fox and Castle with all of them being interchangeable.
Someone similar to Monk, Sexton, Coby White, you get the point.


there's no need for a dissertation as a response

Alright, let's not use arguments, but stick to whataboutisms.
Taking a look at everyone's net rating is more than enough.
Scott posted many advanced metrics and graphs, each one shows Vassell is horrible, but you don't provide a single argument against it.


or an emotionally fueled generalization about the state of the Spurs fan base

Are you telling me that's not the state of Spurs fanbase.
I just opened Spurs subreddit and the first post is a tankathon screenshot, some homer hoping we get lucky again.

[scott]

for those who missed it in the long video earlier

1885010092917154118

But how will we replace Devin dribbling the air out of the ball and settling for a contested 18 foot jumper?

[Pauleta14]

Wemby is exhausted by having to do so much and we're below 50%, if Fox doesn't come NOW, the rest of the season can become a massacre if he doesn't get any help.

Either Fox comes before 6/2 or we're tanking hard and Wemby can forget about his DPOY and NBA Team selection (with the consequences it could have on his relationship with PATFO)

That's why I'd be surprised if Fox doesn't come, or at least a Big bc Vic made it clear he wants to experience the POs this season.

[scott]

LeBowen used a lot of words, but this image below is really all that needs to be said. I won't even add any commentary, it speaks for itself.

https://i.postimg.cc/8zymDLry/Devin-On-Off.png

[TD 21]

As I expected, from everything I've heard, it sounds like Castle is off limits.


He's not providing shit, tbh.
8-7 without Vassell.
5-6 when he comes off the bench.
7-10 when he starts.

We're talking about a player who's missed 25% games in his career, never had a single double double, is obviously a negative on defense. Fine, he's a scorer?
Well, he's got 6 games with 30+ points in 268 career games.

Him and Keldon provide absolutely nothing to this team except for empty stats here and there.



As I already wrote, 3pt shooting isn't actually that bad. 6th in attempts and 13th in makes. Could be better, but is fine.
On the other hand, the offense grinds to a halt whenever the set gets broken down and we take bad shots.
It's either Castle or Keldon with low-percentage drives (others can't even get to the rim), Wemby's awnkward isos that usually end in turnovers or everyone chucking contested 3pts because we can't get a better shot.

We need a reliable paint penetrator who can collapse the defense. Fox is one of the best in the league at it and would solve a lot of our issues on offense.
He's not an amazing defender, but definitely better than Devin and they're almost identical in size, despite what official measurements say.

If Devin continues underperforming like this, we'll have to get rid of him pretty soon, he'll be a negative asset.
Our starting lineup with Champagnie was doing just fine.

It is not fine. They're 21st in 3pt%, lack a single great shooter and 5 of their top 10 are virtual or non ones.

If Fox thought Sabonis and DeRozan provided spacing issues (no surprise his career season came two seasons ago, with Barnes and pre collapse Huerter alongside), wait until he gets a load of Castle and Sochan.

[scott]

but he is that player. he may not be very good at it (and thus there is no argument in trying to trade him away) but he still, presently, fills that role. he's actually our second option when he should be our fourth. fox would obviously be a solid second (and sometimes first) option but the absence of vassell would mean that we would be in need of another player to fill his role. that is all i am saying. there's no need for a dissertation as a response, or an emotionally fueled generalization about the state of the Spurs fan base.

I agree with you. Devin sucks, but he is still filling a role. Like you said, he may not be good at that role, but we still need to fill it with him or someone else.

Part of the reason I want to trade Devin away is to remove the temptation to even try to shoehorn Devin into that 4th option role. He's a losing basketball player, and we aren't going to be good enough anytime soon to mask his deficiencies. He might do well as the 4th or 5th option on a great team, because they can cover up his deficiencies... but we aren't even close to there yet. And let's be honest... if Devin was traded to OKC, CLE, BOS, HOU, MEM, NYK tomorrow... I don't think he even sniffs 15 minutes of playing time.

[scott]

I just opened Spurs subreddit and the first post is a tankathon screenshot, some homer hoping we get lucky again.

Haha, yeah I saw that one and a comment of "this is why you don't trade picks for Fox" :lol

I responded: that's like saying buying MegaMillions tickets is why you don't spend money feeding your children

[scott]

rjv and LeBowen, if I could step in (I apologize for butting in) but I don't think you two are disagreeing much here at all. rjv isn't even defending Devin, he's just saying that by trading away Devin we will need to replace that role. I don't even think that is debatable but I'd say forcing us to fill that role with someone who is not Devin Vassell is a good thing!

[scott]

This is Brian Wright's moment to tell Pop/Mitch they can't start Pena anymore


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwmsSAvkzGE

[scott]

As I expected, from everything I've heard, it sounds like Castle is off limits.



It is not fine. They're 21st in 3pt%, lack a single great shooter and 5 of their top 10 are virtual or non ones.

If Fox thought Sabonis and DeRozan provided spacing issues (no surprise his career season came two seasons ago, with Barnes and pre collapse Huerter alongside), wait until he gets a load of Castle and Sochan.

TD, my friend... I think those of us who are Fox proponents aren't making the case that the roster is magically fixed by adding Fox whether you trade Devin or Castle. There is still a lot more changes that would need to come. You don't trade Devin instead of Castle because the fit is better tomorrow... you trade Devin instead of Castle because Castle has promise and Devin is fully baked into what he is, which isn't good enough.

[Limguogolo]

LeBowen (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54457) used a lot of words, but this image below is really all that needs to be said. I won't even add any commentary, it speaks for itself.

https://i.postimg.cc/8zymDLry/Devin-On-Off.png
Yes, but Vassell also becomes the first option when... Victor is on the bench and the opposing teams enjoy the air in the Spurs paint and the Spurs cannot rely on him in attack (Spurs 2023).

Correlation is not causation (plenty of factors may explain these numbers).

Is Vassell bad in man on man defense and basketball IQ? and could the Spurs find something better as a second or third option in offense? These are the only questions to ask.

[rjv]

Then this is just a big misunderstading.
When I say he isn't that player it means I don't think he's good enough to be that player for not just us, but any playoff team.
Zach Collins is our backup big, that doesn't mean he's good enough.

exactly. at my firm, if we have a bad law clerk, we still need that clerk. if the clerk is fired, we still need to replace the clerk, hopefully with a more competent one.



We were fine without Devin while he was injured and Fox would be a huge firepower improvement.
But as it's been said many times, ideally we get a 6th man to form a three guard rotation with Fox and Castle with all of them being interchangeable.
Someone similar to Monk, Sexton, Coby White, you get the point.

agreed.


Alright, let's not use arguments, but stick to whataboutisms.
Taking a look at everyone's net rating is more than enough.
Scott posted many advanced metrics and graphs, each one shows Vassell is horrible, but you don't provide a single argument against it.

why do i need to argue about it? Or respond? He wasn't posting that as a response to anything I said and it was relevant to whatever point was being made.



Are you telling me that's not the state of Spurs fanbase.
I just opened Spurs subreddit and the first post is a tankathon screenshot, some homer hoping we get lucky again.

i'm not categorically saying anything about the state of the Spurs fan base. I could use any sample size to make my generalization look good but the same could be said of someone stating the exact opposite. Aren't you a part of the Spurs fan base?

[mudyez]

Either Fox comes before 6/2 or we're tanking hard and Wemby can forget about his DPOY and NBA Team selection (with the consequences it could have on his relationship with PATFO)


What?

[baseline bum]

If we get Fox, all we need is a starting small forward and power forward and a three-point shooting backup for SG.

Coach too

[RC_Drunkford]

A couple of thoughts, for what they are worth (which I remind everyone, is nothing):

1. Interesting to me that now Demar is saying that if Fox is traded that will raise a lot of questions about his future in SAC. DDR said Fox is a huge reason he went to SAC, so if he was gone it would raise questions. SAC may actually view this as an opportunity. Trading Fox will also allow them to move Demar and get off of that mistake and build a more coherent roster. I won't put a lot of effort into options for them, but just off the top of my head Cam Johnson as their starting 3 instead of Demar unlocks a lot for them. A starting unit of Monk/Ellis/Cam/Murray/Sabonis with Vassell as the 6th man works a hell of a lot better than what they have now.

2. SAC is a team like SAS that has extra incentive to "do right" by their guys. It isn't all because the FOs are full of soft bitches, but because as a small market team in a less attractive city, you need that reputation of being player friendly. Not just so you can land big FAs, but so you can land small ones too, and to keep the guys you already have happy and confident to be there in the event they one day need to move on. This certainly works in our favor as SAC may not want to burn Fox and Rich Paul by shipping him off to WAS or some shit. Klutch wants their client out of SAC and to SAS now, and if SAC can help make that happen, I'm sure Klutch will remember that and show appreciation in some way down the line. The NBA isn't different from other businesses, relationships are very important.

I don't think the Kings see trading for DeRozan as a mistake. They not the smartest bunch, neither is San Antonio though.

[baseline bum]

every time i see vivek's face i think of this old bit


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgX1a_NUMFo

based on a true story


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEK_d-SFfCQ

I wish they would have filmed the Bagley pick. Or Willie Cauley-Stein. Or Jimmer. Or Thomas Robinson. Or McLemore. Or Marqueese Chriss.

[baseline bum]

A couple of thoughts, for what they are worth (which I remind everyone, is nothing):

1. Interesting to me that now Demar is saying that if Fox is traded that will raise a lot of questions about his future in SAC. DDR said Fox is a huge reason he went to SAC, so if he was gone it would raise questions. SAC may actually view this as an opportunity. Trading Fox will also allow them to move Demar and get off of that mistake and build a more coherent roster. I won't put a lot of effort into options for them, but just off the top of my head Cam Johnson as their starting 3 instead of Demar unlocks a lot for them. A starting unit of Monk/Ellis/Cam/Murray/Sabonis with Vassell as the 6th man works a hell of a lot better than what they have now.

2. SAC is a team like SAS that has extra incentive to "do right" by their guys. It isn't all because the FOs are full of soft bitches, but because as a small market team in a less attractive city, you need that reputation of being player friendly. Not just so you can land big FAs, but so you can land small ones too, and to keep the guys you already have happy and confident to be there in the event they one day need to move on. This certainly works in our favor as SAC may not want to burn Fox and Rich Paul by shipping him off to WAS or some shit. Klutch wants their client out of SAC and to SAS now, and if SAC can help make that happen, I'm sure Klutch will remember that and show appreciation in some way down the line. The NBA isn't different from other businesses, relationships are very important.

Wouldn't that be the most Spurs like move where they do something great in getting Fox but then fuck it all up by trading for DeRozan too? No way Brooklyn is going to be wanting him.

[baseline bum]

This is Brian Wright's moment to tell Pop/Mitch they can't start Pena anymore


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwmsSAvkzGE

I was gonna ask who is Pena but then remembered it was reported last night that Sochan will be coming off the bench for the foreseeable future.

[objective]

Really hope that if a deal happens it's more like the Dunc'd On scenario and not like the Locked On Kings podcast host who today was especially obnoxious and belligerent about what the Spurs need to give up for an unhappy non-superstar.

He inadvertently brought up Siakam when talking about how Siakam killed the Sacramento deal with his refusal to sign an extension (which in Kings fan logic meant the Spurs still had to pay up?)

The Siakam trade is the model framework.

Rotation overpaid semi-scrub Bruce Brown + salary matching 12th man quality scrubs, + 3 mediocre firsts that had conditions. 2 already conveyed at 19 and 29 in the 2024 draft, and the last is the 2026 top 4 protected Indiana pick, then top 4 protected in 2027 that converts to a 2nd rounder.

Keldon, Tre Jones, Chris Paul/Zollins/filler plus the worst of SA/ATL in 25, the bulls pick, and a better of SA and Boston in 28 is more than fair

The 25 pick is probably no worse than 17 or 18 and might even be a lottery pick. The bulls pick has a high likelihood of being a back end lottery pick and the 28 is guaranteed to convey that gives protection in case the bulls pick never conveys however unlikely that may be.

[TD 21]

Talent > fit if the former is overwhelming (see Robinson/Duncan and James/Wade). Otherwise and within' reason, fit > talent.

[RC_Drunkford]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAnOnP59amM

[Obstructed_View]

Wemby is exhausted by having to do so much and we're below 50%, if Fox doesn't come NOW, the rest of the season can become a massacre if he doesn't get any help.

Either Fox comes before 6/2 or we're tanking hard and Wemby can forget about his DPOY and NBA Team selection (with the consequences it could have on his relationship with PATFO)

That's why I'd be surprised if Fox doesn't come, or at least a Big bc Vic made it clear he wants to experience the POs this season.
The way the Bulls started winning was the team would keep the game close and then let Jordan close it out. The Spurs and Victor are so worn out by that point that they make mistakes.

Someone who can score would be great, but trading for a halfway decent big to absorb contact/minutes might be all they need to turn close losses into close wins.

[LeBowen]

The Siakam trade is the model framework.


Siakam was on an expiring deal, Fox has another season after this one, can't compare those two.
Siakam was also on a team that wanted to blow it up in order to tank, Kings want to keep competing.

As I said earlier today, Mitchell and Lillard are the deals we should be looking at.
Jazz got Sexton, Markkanen, 3 bad FRPs and 2 swaps for Mitchell. Cleveland should still be competitive when those picks convey.
Blazers got 4 deadweight players, #14 '24 FRP which they traded to Washington in Avdija deal, 2 '29 FRPs from Bucks and Celtics, value unknown as of now.

Devin, SAC swap returned and either 1 unprotected ATL FRP or 2 mediocre FRPs with maybe another swap or extra SRPs seems to be fair value compared to those deals.
They can also have Tre, Wesley or any other scrub if they're interested.

[Pauleta14]

What?

IF Spurs don't bring anyone, with a much tougher schedule to come, a more exhausted Wemby (ASG duties coming aren't gonna help) will not have the same production he had up until now, especially being better game planned with more blueprints (Houston bully style or Memphis 2 Bigs for ex) to slow him down.

As of now his +/- differential when he's on/off the court is the main argument to defend his DPOY but even with him on the court Spurs aren't a top defensive team anymore, it will have an impact IF his stats decline, especially his blck/game.

Take away his 1st game in Paris where adrenalin probably helped, he's been in a little slump for a while already and his body language recently is worrisome. I can't see how he can find more energy when he'll soon have to spend a lot more than usual.

He needs help badly and ASAP

[Pauleta14]

The way the Bulls started winning was the team would keep the game close and then let Jordan close it out. The Spurs and Victor are so worn out by that point that they make mistakes.

Someone who can score would be great, but trading for a halfway decent big to absorb contact/minutes might be all they need to turn close losses into close wins.

Honesty I don't know what type of profile could help, but he needs help badly bc it can get ugly and it's not hard to see it coming.

Fox would mechanically spread the floor being a constant threat in the lane, everybody would benefit from it instantly.

Only having Castle being able to penetrate is making it so much easier to defend us and Wemby has to do so much more to find space

Another big would help so much, either for Memphis type of matchups than giving some rest to Wemby without loosing too much lead

[objective]

Siakam was on an expiring deal, Fox has another season after this one, can't compare those two.
Siakam was also on a team that wanted to blow it up in order to tank, Kings want to keep competing.

As I said earlier today, Mitchell and Lillard are the deals we should be looking at.
Jazz got Sexton, Markkanen, 3 bad FRPs and 2 swaps for Mitchell. Cleveland should still be competitive when those picks convey.
Blazers got 4 deadweight players, #14 '24 FRP which they traded to Washington in Avdija deal, 2 '29 FRPs from Bucks and Celtics, value unknown as of now.

Devin, SAC swap returned and either 1 unprotected ATL FRP or 2 mediocre FRPs with maybe another swap or extra SRPs seems to be fair value compared to those deals.
They can also have Tre, Wesley or any other scrub if they're interested.

Player-wise Fox and Siakam are a better comparison. The pick quality the Spurs send in the Dunc'd On proposal covers the extra half season. I assume the future swap would be torn up and that also covers it.

Mitchell and Lillard were much better players than Fox and had longer deals. Both had much, much more playoff success than Fox, load more all-star games, much higher placement in MVP votes (Fox never in top 10), and had made better than NBA 3rd team.

[Manu20]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAnOnP59amM

The proposed trade from ESPN....Damn it is a tough one to decide. I would rather include Devin Vassell (not Castle) and add a Top 3 Protection (do the rules allow it?) to the 2025 ATL pick.

Spurs Receive: Fox

Kings Receive: Castle
Keldon Johnson
2025 and 2027 ATL 1st
2025 CHI 1st (Top 10 Protected)

[mo7888]

The proposed trade from ESPN....Damn it is a tough one to decide. I would rather include Devin Vassell (not Castle) and add a Top 3 Protection (do the rules allow it?) to the 2025 ATL pick.

Spurs Receive: Fox

Kings Receive: Castle
Keldon Johnson
2025 and 2027 ATL 1st
2025 CHI 1st (Top 10 Protected)

That's a slight overpay in my mind.

[mystargtr34]

Fox is in the second last year of his deal which means his trade value has already eroded about 20-30% of its peak value say if he had 2 or 3 full seasons remaining under contract. If the Spurs wait till the off-season then his trade value drops significantly as he essentially becomes a 1-year rental for all teams but SA.

That might not stop a desperate team from throwing a good offer at Sac and just hoping they can get Fox to sign with the bigger bird rights deal but that’s risky for the team.

My current offer is still Vassell + Keldon + worst of 25 ATL/SAS + 25 CHI + worst of 27 ATL/SAS + 31 SAC swap + 4 SRP of their choosing + fillers.

[tbdog]

^ way to much. That's a lot of picks to add with Vassell. Fox isn't a smooth fit either to throw that much. Spurs want to have more ammo for the next deal.

[scott]

Wouldn't that be the most Spurs like move where they do something great in getting Fox but then fuck it all up by trading for DeRozan too? No way Brooklyn is going to be wanting him.

Haha, I meant more that SAC could send DDR somewhere else in a different deal, not as part of this one...

[scott]

I was gonna ask who is Pena but then remembered it was reported last night that Sochan will be coming off the bench for the foreseeable future.

Vassell is definitely Pena

[BackHome]

Realistically who is willing to pay a butt load for Fox? Who is willing to give up players and unconditional picks?

[Kevin]

Dev and Tre
Least favorable 25 pick
Most Favorable 27 pick
Tear up the 31 swap.

[Spurs Brazil]

https://x.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1885104419672350836

[BacktoBasics]

Dev and Tre
Least favorable 25 pick
Most Favorable 27 pick
Tear up the 31 swap.
This is about what I’d expect. It’s also the limit for me.

[TD 21]

Dev and Tre
Least favorable 25 pick
Most Favorable 27 pick
Tear up the 31 swap.

Add Collins + Huerter and Len.

Paul probably gets waived/released to sign with the Lakers, leaving a rotation of . . .

Starters: Barnes, Champagnie, Wembanyama, Castle, Fox

Bench: Sochan, Johnson, Huerter, Bassey/Len/Mamukelashvili

[tim_duncan_fan]

This is about what I’d expect. It’s also the limit for me.

It's one pick too much. They should take the '25 first rounders out of consideration.

[Russ]

https://x.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1885104419672350836

Draw the line at (1) no Castle and (2) no more than two first round picks and (3) you get any other combination of Spurs players (CP3 excluded because, in part, Wemby will be watching).

[scott]

https://x.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1885104419672350836

Good to see that this is the Spurs position.

[stephen jackson]

i feel like the kings wont do it if we dont give up castle oh well, i dont want castle leaving ill wait for another star to wanna play here

[tim_duncan_fan]

i feel like the kings wont do it if we dont give up castle oh well, i dont want castle leaving ill wait for another star to wanna play here

That's the thing. If Vic takes care of business like he is supposed to, works to get stronger, and learns a post-game, there will be good players flocking to be part of his journey. Fox is just the first, and he isn't THAT good.

Bringing Fox to the Spurs does *not* line up two 1A players on the same team. It doesn't become a super team. It's one presumed hall of famer and one other player who can maybe be the 2nd guy on a championship team.

I am not saying I am 100% certain on "don't trade Castle" but they need to think a long time about it. It is very possible/easy to overpay for Fox, in my opinion. The front office needs to be careful.

[Dverde]

No one wants Castle leaving here, but he should be available. You just mark up his price so Sac loses interest. Wemby is the only one off limits for a player like Fox.

[rascal]

As I expected, from everything I've heard, it sounds like Castle is off limits.



It is not fine. They're 21st in 3pt%, lack a single great shooter and 5 of their top 10 are virtual or non ones.

If Fox thought Sabonis and DeRozan provided spacing issues (no surprise his career season came two seasons ago, with Barnes and pre collapse Huerter alongside), wait until he gets a load of Castle and Sochan.

My prediction is Sac will want Castle and the Spurs will not want to trade Castle and that will be what makes the trade fall apart and not happen.

[Bill_Brasky]

There's no goddamn way I would give up Castle. I like Fox but Castle will end up the better player. Rather pursue other avenues.

[rankingtear]

He won't approach the potential of a blue chip prospect growing alongside Wemby like Castle or the odds of the 2025 picks. Hitting on atleast one these players is still what determines a championship not Fox.

[baseline bum]

Haha, I meant more that SAC could send DDR somewhere else in a different deal, not as part of this one...

Could just see Pop pushing to bring back this greatest of no 3, no D stars

[Bill_Brasky]

Could just see Pop pushing to bring back this greatest of no 3, no D stars

But he modeled his game after Kobe!!!!

[Mikesatx]

I remember when we drafted Vassel he was described as 3&D. Below was his draft scouting report. Hasn’t lived up.

Devin VassellNBA DRAFT SCOUTING REPORT

POSITION: SG (https://nbadraftroom.com/shooting-guards/)SF (https://nbadraftroom.com/small-forwards/)
FROM: Florida State
HT: 6-6
WT: 180


BORN: 8/23/00
YEAR: So.
WING: 6-10
REACH:NA



x






















Draft NotesVassell is a rangy wing player who plays hard on both ends of the floor. After a breakout sophomore season he projects as a likely lottery pick in the 2020 NBA Draft and possibly the top wing defender in this class.
Devin can score from 3 levels and has a really nice mid range game. He gets the defender off balance with jab-steps and can rise up from awkward angles to get his shot. He’s got an over-head release that’s hard to block (although a recent video suggests that he may have altered his shot for the worse).
He’s not a volume shooter but he can get his own shot and is very efficient with his touches. He’s got deep range and great accuracy from outside, hitting over 41% both of his seasons at Florida State.
While not being the fastest player in the open court he runs the floor hard and does a lot of damage in transition.
Vassell is a standout defender who moves his feet well and has very quick hands. His plus wingspan and great anticipation make him disruptive in the passing lanes. He’s an excellent off the ball defender, showing great anticipation and awareness and making great rotations.
His overall athleticism is good but not great by NBA standards but his skill level, efficient play and all around game make him a likely starter in the league.
Comparisons

Michael Redd
Kerry Kittles

Draft Projection
top 5-12 pick in the 2020 NBA Draft (https://nbadraftroom.com/p/2020-nba-mock-draft/)

[cutewizard]

https://x.com/damienbarling/status/1884972093437366507?s=46

Just do it

Trade Vassell

[CGD]

https://x.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1885104419672350836

I would be incredibly pissed if Castle is moved.

[3&D_TBH]

They can have castle but they gonna need to throw in Sabonis with fox tbh. :lol

[CGD]

Draw the line at (1) no Castle and (2) no more than two first round picks and (3) you get any other combination of Spurs players (CP3 excluded because, in part, Wemby will be watching).

Moving CP3 makes a ton of sense. It’s cap relief for the other team (as is including Tre Jones). CP3s deal was almost designed for this, and I’m sure CP3 was onboard with this if it also lead to a buyout.

[CGD]

My prediction is Sac will want Castle and the Spurs will not want to trade Castle and that will be what makes the trade fall apart and not happen.

Cool, then SAC can deal with low ball offers from the rest of the league

[poopbox]

Not trading for a all nba caliber guard who wants to be here in his prime because you want to keep the Jeremy Sochan of guards is peak spurstalk :lmao

Castle is off limit's because...well he just is :lmao

I'd have had this mop head mufugga out of here so damn fast :lmao

[z0sa]

:lol don't tell me Castle is the hang-up. He won't even get many touches with Fox on the team. Bye bye, I'm sure you'll be great in your own right but Wemby needs help NOW.

[Degoat]

I really like Castle, but we can’t be so attached to any player except wemby. The team has to improve and Fox is a great player

[Das Texan]

I mean at this point Fox is tanking is trade value so not sure on what planet the Spurs would include Castle (that would be beyond stupid tbh) when they are competing against themselves essentially.

Kings either make the trade or dont make the trade. Spurs can wait it out 2 years at this point if they need to.

[objective]

One of my issues moving Castle is that his value will only go up from here. Averaging 15 points a game as a starter in January. If Wemby misses any time I could see that growing for sure the rest of the season.

And the more time he plays the more respect he'll get from the refs and the more free throw attempts he'll get.

He'll be worth much more next trade deadline. Next first half will probably be an entire half season averaging over 15 points a game, maybe 17-18, and with the defense and potential... That's worth quite a bit

[DesignatedT]

That’s a no on Castle. Unless it’s straight up with no 1sts involved.

[ace3g]

https://x.com/TheSteinLine/status/1885133888608989511

[spurraider21]

1885135727987408904

https://media.tenor.com/I7iswCYiiXYAAAAM/gagging-gag.gif

[benefactor]

That’s a no on Castle. Unless it’s straight up with no 1sts involved.
:lol

Getting deep in here

[mudyez]

That’s a no on Castle. Unless it’s straight up with no 1sts involved.

Exactly...and I'm pretty confident thats the Spurs position as well.

[timtonymanu]

Giddey would be a typical spurs choice cause he can’t shoot 3s.

[Robz4000]

1885135727987408904

https://media.tenor.com/I7iswCYiiXYAAAAM/gagging-gag.gif

:lmao Giddey

[ixiXSolidXixi]

Trade Castle with no 2025 picks attach.

[NASpurs]

Can't wait for the documentary that'll come out 20 years from now after this goes up like a fart in a wind. We'll find out that the hold up was that the Spurs didn't want to give up Branham AND Wesley.

[benefactor]

For the record I don't think the Spurs are going to trade Castle. But there's no way the Kings ask for a package that doesn't have picks involved. And they sure as hell aren't giving away Fox for Castle alone.

[Mugen]

Remember when Kawhi was on the block and everybody here was like we'll at least get OG or Siakam....

And BWrong could only swing Poetl? :lol

[objective]

Giddey? After Primo?

Good lord what a wreck on the court that would be. Career low in points, frequently benched in crunch time, playing under 30 minutes a game despite playing over 30 his first 2 seasons ... Still can't shoot... Hilarious.

[Dverde]

Can't wait for the documentary that'll come out 20 years from now after this goes up like a fart in a wind. We'll find out that the hold up was that the Spurs didn't want to give up Branham AND Wesley.

This is the Kings after all….something like Kings breaking off talks when the Spurs won’t include Harrison Barnes and the Kings not realizing that he can’t be included.

[spurraider21]

:lmao Giddey Mr. Body on suicide watch if LaMelo joins the team :lol

1885134445541548303

[rjv]

as with most trade rumors that spread out over the span of a few weeks, this one will continue to evolve. i'm sure we're going to here all sorts of names and teams brought up.

[Knoxxx]

Seems like the ask price will be too high. Fox is a handful but he’s not real efficient with a career best 38% 3 PT%. I think he’s shown over multiple NBA seasons the best 3 PT % we are likely to get out of him is more like 35% which isn’t stellar. That’s what Wemby is shooting and he’s real streaky. Sounds like an ongoing recipe for more of these wild swings we see based on how good or bad our 3 PT shooting is in a given game. With blowout losses on the bad nights. Fox is roster able and an upgrade for us, but won’t solve our core issues or really move the needle in the W/L column.

That said, I don’t have a problem at all moving him for Castle straight up. The jury is out on Castle and his ugly shooting percentage. He’s currently near the bottom of our roster for defensive rating. The reason we are putting up with his bad offensive play was supposed to be that he makes up for it on defense and that has not been the case.

BUT I think it is fine to give a rookie a pass for being a rookie. He has shown enough to warrant ongoing patience for now. That hardly makes him untouchable though. Castle and picks I don’t like, Vassell and picks a little better. The devil in the details is of course which picks.

[Bill_Brasky]

Trading the Atlanta pick to get this done makes more sense to me.

[Russ]

Can't wait for the documentary that'll come out 20 years from now after this goes up like a fart in a wind. We'll find out that the hold up was that the Spurs didn't want to give up Branham AND Wesley.

Hopefully, Spurs history 20 years from now will rate a documentary.

[Blizzardwizard]

OKC quickly jettisoned Giddey because Presti is good at his job and soon realized that, despite putting up decent numbers at a young age, he was never going to contribute to winning as a second, third or likely even fourth option.

The exact kind of player incompetent, mediocre franchises like CHI acquire and predictably go nowhere with. Not good enough to move the needle but just good enough to keep a team afloat and lazy front offices out of any negative headlines in the national media.

So the perfect player for PATFO to acquire and give an endless leash in the blind hope that he takes some kind of age 25/26/27 leap.

I can already see the be patient you brats, he just got here! sniffer posts after his third-straight season averaging 10 PTS/6 REB/5 AST on 43/31/79 shooting splits


I hate it here :depressed

[Russ]

OKC quickly jettisoned Giddey because Presti is good at his job and soon realized that, despite putting up decent numbers at a young age, he was never going to contribute to winning as a second, third or likely even fourth option.

The exact kind of player incompetent, mediocre franchises like CHI acquire and predictably go nowhere with. Not good enough to move the needle but just good enough to keep a team afloat and lazy front offices out of any negative headlines in the national media.

So the perfect player for PATFO to acquire and give an endless leash in the blind hope that he takes some kind of age 25/26/27 leap.

I can already see the be patient you brats, he just got here! sniffer posts after his third-straight season averaging 10 PTS/6 REB/5 AST on 43/31/79 shooting splits


I hate it here :depressed

Giddey sounds like a smokescreen for Sacramento.

[tim_duncan_fan]

:lol don't tell me Castle is the hang-up. He won't even get many touches with Fox on the team. Bye bye, I'm sure you'll be great in your own right but Wemby needs help NOW.

Why does Vic need help now? He isn't ready to compete for a championship himself.

We have time because our star needs time to get stronger and grow his game.

[spurraider21]

the spurs letting it be known that theyre exploring other options is a necessary part of the song and dance. just like sacto doesnt want to feel trapped into trading him to SAS, the spurs dont want the kings to know that they are tunnel visioned and desperate to get a deal done

[z0sa]

Why does Vic need help now? He isn't ready to compete for a championship himself.

We have time because our star needs time to get stronger and grow his game.

Strongly disagree. Wemby's #1 problem is he has no one even approaching a #2 on the roster. They've tripled and quadrupled him more in his young career than I saw in 4-5 years of prime championship level basketball Duncan. It's because you just couldn't do that to Tim - we had second and third options who would beat you, night in and night out.

Vassell, as I've said many times, should never have been shoe horned into such a role. And, regardless of the hate, Vassell is a better player than Castle. It's not up for debate. Vassell as a #3 option is simply a lot better for the team than Castle as the #3. It should also improve his defense since so many less offensive duties will be allocated to him (Vassell).

Castle needs the ball and dribbles to make an impact right now. He's very turnover prone, can't shoot, doesn't consistently draw fouls. He's extraneous with Fox here. Doesn't mean I dislike the kid, or don't think he could be better than even Fox - in the future. Wemby is ready for playoff basketball. He NEEDS the experience. Waiting years for Castle to be the #2 guy only screws our best player, sad but true, and it will also cause chemistry issues because Vassell isn't going to step back from that role readily for him.

[scott]

Imagine having a Top 5 player in the league and thinking to yourself "he needs to get better before we improve the roster"

[baseline bum]

Remember when Kawhi was on the block and everybody here was like we'll at least get OG or Siakam....

And BWrong could only swing Poetl? :lol

:cry It Still Hurts® :cry

[mo7888]

I know most here are a 'no' on Castle. I'm not. I'd much rather move Devin, but if they insisted my best offer would be:

Sac- Castle + KJ + Collins + Malaki + Cha + Chi + Spurs 2027 + their pick swap back

Spurs- Fox + Castle

[scott]

I know most here are a 'no' on Castle. I'm not. I'd much rather move Devin, but if they insisted my best offer would be:

Sac- Castle + KJ + Collins + Malaki + Cha + Chi + Spurs 2027 + their pick swap back

Spurs- Fox + Castle

I agree Castle shouldn't be a deal breaker. It can't be Castle + Devin though, unless they are talking about those two with no picks attached.

[z0sa]

I've come to accept that Vassell is likely gone in this deal. It bothers me because we lose the little amount of spacing we have without him. Even if he's not the dead eye shooter he should be, Vassell can be streaky and the vast majority of opponents will stick to him on the 3 point line. Castle might as well be Mamu or Zollins out there. It'll be a tightly packed paint area and even Fox is going to have trouble breaking it open. I don't like it, it's more bad roster construction but whatever, Castle IS young and does have the defense that Vassell should have had but apparently doesn't. Maybe he gets better shooting threes or something.

[ixiXSolidXixi]

I know most here are a 'no' on Castle. I'm not. I'd much rather move Devin, but if they insisted my best offer would be:

Sac- Castle + KJ + Collins + Malaki + Cha + Chi + Spurs 2027 + their pick swap back

Spurs- Fox + Castle

Who get Castle?

[TrainOfThought5]

That's a slight overpay in my mind.


nothing slight about it.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I know most here are a 'no' on Castle. I'm not. I'd much rather move Devin, but if they insisted my best offer would be:

Sac- Castle + KJ + Collins + Malaki + Cha + Chi + Spurs 2027 + their pick swap back

Spurs- Fox + Castle

So you want them to trade Castle back to us after we trade him to them?

[TeKu]

So you want them to trade Castle back to us after we trade him to them?

It adds a touch of journeyman experience for him.

[scott]

I've come to accept that Vassell is likely gone in this deal. It bothers me because we lose the little amount of spacing we have without him. Even if he's not the dead eye shooter he should be, Vassell can be streaky and the vast majority of opponents will stick to him on the 3 point line. Castle might as well be Mamu or Zollins out there. It'll be a tightly packed paint area and even Fox is going to have trouble breaking it open. I don't like it, it's more bad roster construction but whatever, Castle IS young and does have the defense that Vassell should have had but apparently doesn't. Maybe he gets better shooting threes or something.

Well, hopefully the Spurs make other moves to also address this issue (which is a real one - I agree with you). I just think we should go with talent over fit at this point.

[Arguendo]

Castle is off limit's because...well he just is :lmao

I'll bite.
How about because he's a just turned 20 year old, averaging 14.5/3.4/2.6 in 26.7 minutes in January, who looks like a future All-Defense guy with great switchability- don't care what D-rating says about a 20/yo still adjusting to NBA speed/size-, who would likely be #1 if a redraft happened today and has a great chance to ROY, who has played well enough already to make many reasonably believe he can get to a 25/6/5 (Prime Fox) level maybe in 2-3 yrs (and a 19+/5/4 potential guy playing 31-2mpg next season) with far superior defense and much better size, who is under cheap team control for a year longer than Vic,
AND
The guy you would trade him for reportedly has made it clear he wants to go to SA- SA is THE LIST- and SA is the only team he'd sign an extension with, who is also dealing with multiple injuries and my be tanking his value to lower the price tag so the SA team he joins can be as best positioned as possible to contend next season.

Or everyone that wants him "off limit's" is a poophead but not you. Grow up.
I don't think many, if any, would be mad at a Castle + Collins + more salary filler/2nds, but Castle is worth 2 or 3 FRPs right now. Castle plus first round picks is an overpay for a guy that is letting it be known he wants to go to SA. That is much more than "just is". Context matters dude.

[mo7888]

So you want them to trade Castle back to us after we trade him to them?

Should have been Heurter + Fox

[Uriel]

At this point, there is likely to be a roughly 1 in 3 chance that the Spurs will leap into the top 4 of the draft, given the Hawks' likely lottery pick and their own.

Would it be worth trading a 1 in 3 chance to get one of Flagg, Harper, Bailey, or Edgecombe for Fox? Something to keep in mind in these trade talks.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Spurs would be idiots to include that ATL pick.

Now, maybe something like their worst first rounder this year, but you gotta keep control of that ATL pick.

[baseline bum]

At this point, there is likely to be a roughly 1 in 3 chance that the Spurs will leap into the top 4 of the draft, given the Hawks' likely lottery pick and their own.

Would it be worth trading a 1 in 3 chance to get one of Flagg, Harper, Bailey, or Edgecombe for Fox? Something to keep in mind in these trade talks.

I think so if the Spurs can keep Castle and instead move lesser talents like Vassell or Sochan. Lots of supposedly great prospects chosen in the top 4 fail. Scoot, MKG, Wiseman, Simmons, Patrick Williams, Derrick Williams, Zion, Ayton, Bagley, Fultz, Josh Jackson, etc.

Relevant part at 1:30


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugN5aD5p2NU

It's one thing to take big home run swings when you have nothing to lose like the Spurs did in 2022-23, but that's not the case anymore. Now it's about trying to put talent around the kind of star you're likely to never get another chance at having because if you screw up he's gone and you're never getting another Victor. So strike while the iron is hot.

[tbdog]

I would assume 2025 worse of Alt/Spurs is on the table, along with the Bulls pick.

[scott]

I mean, I want Castle to be on our off-limits too... but thinking he could be a 25/6/5 guy seems like a stretch. He doesn't have the speed or athleticism to be an elite-level penetrator and it doesn't look like his shot is going to get him there.

However, I do think he can be an All-Star. 25ppg just seems a bit ambitious given Castle's skillset.

[Arguendo]

Wemby's #1 problem is he has no one even approaching a #2 on the roster.

Castle needs the ball and dribbles to make an impact right now. He's very turnover prone, can't shoot, doesn't consistently draw fouls. He's extraneous with Fox here.
Wemby's only actual problem is turnover's (excusing his lack of strength bc he's 21). There's prolly 3 losses you can directly attribute to some inexcusable TOs. Even with that 1 flaw and constant double/triple teams, he's a top 5 player.

Yes, I really want him to get some help on O and I largely agree with your sentiment, except I'm willing to wait if the Kings make Castle plus 1st rounders a requirement.
Castle looks like the favorite for ROY (maybe a heavy favorite- barring injury or a huge jump it looks like its him, Sarr, Wells, Missi, and Edey. Edey and Wells likely steal votes from each other, Sarr shoots significantly worse from 2pt vs Steph, Missi is a nice surprise but no-one is winning ROY in single digit scoring).
A 20y/o, 6'6" and long "PG", reigning ROY with huge D upside and switchability is the centerpiece to any big name that becomes available.
It matters less that he may not actually answer whether he can be a fulltime PG, or if he can shoot, or if his D is oversold.- the age, size & ROY title will do all the heavy lifting.

I guess we have different definitions of very turnover prone and consistently drawing fouls. He didn't play PG last year, now he's in the NBA and he's young. He's gettting to the rack and gets to the line.
For comp:
Castle 20y/o R- 25.5 MP 10.7 FGA 11.9 PTS .485 2P% 3.2 FTA 3.5 AST 1.9 TOV 1.84 A/T
Fox 20 y/o R- 27.8 MP 10.9 FGA 11.6 PTS .436 2P% 2.7FTA 4.4 AST 2.4 TOV 1.83 A/T
So more pts, more efficient, more free throws on less shots and a nearly identical A/T. But Fox didn't take a yr off playing PG.

I want Fox, if Castle is extraneous, trade him when he is likely to have more value this summer. But I wouldn't trade Castle w/ 1sts for Fox because I thinks its very likely Castle is worth 3 1sts this summer, where maybe we get Fox for Castle + salary + 2nds. For maybe Fox finally has surgery on his thumb, is an expiring who needs to be moved to extend, and Vassel + a 1st gets Fox and ROY Castle is the centerpiece to a Lauri trade or get you Naz in a 3-way or whoever else says I want to go win now with Wemby + Fox..

[scott]

At this point, there is likely to be a roughly 1 in 3 chance that the Spurs will leap into the top 4 of the draft, given the Hawks' likely lottery pick and their own.

Would it be worth trading a 1 in 3 chance to get one of Flagg, Harper, Bailey, or Edgecombe for Fox? Something to keep in mind in these trade talks.

If it was a 1 in 3 chance at landing #1 and Flagg, I think there would be a case... but Harper, Bailey and Edgecomb are far from sure things... maybe a 20-40% chance they ever reach Fox's level.

[Dverde]

Spurs would be idiots to include that ATL pick.

Now, maybe something like their worst first rounder this year, but you gotta keep control of that ATL pick.

I agree except if they want to take only filler with that pick like Keldon + Zollins. Castle, Fox, Vassell on the same team makes us contenders. I can’t see them doing that.

[scott]

baseline bum maybe we just need a thread where we piece together YouTube clubs to get the entire movie. It could do some people on this website a lot of good

[Arguendo]

On the Spurs with Wemby, sure. Wemby will take a lot of shots. And reasonably possible best case scenario, not necessarily likely.
Like, I doubt Fox ever scores 25pts again if paired with Wemby.

But in a Fox #1 role, 23-25ppg on 19-20 FGA is very possible to me with development. Agree he doesn't have the speed or athleticism, but he has the strength and body control and size to maybe make up for it and those all age better.
I think he'll be a very efficient (low-mid 50s% 2pt, and continue to be mid 60s% at the rim) in his prime and get to the line a lot. If he can get that 3% to mid 30s, he's an All-Star

For reference, based off Castle's January #s, he'd average 21.75pts if given 18.9FGA. Fox turned a corner in January of his rookie season, and kept progressing from there. I except the same for Steph, maybe not to the same heights, but maybe he gets there too.

[baseline bum]

Castle needs the ball and dribbles to make an impact right now. He's very turnover prone, can't shoot, doesn't consistently draw fouls. He's extraneous with Fox here. Doesn't mean I dislike the kid, or don't think he could be better than even Fox - in the future. Wemby is ready for playoff basketball. He NEEDS the experience. Waiting years for Castle to be the #2 guy only screws our best player, sad but true, and it will also cause chemistry issues because Vassell isn't going to step back from that role readily for him.

Let me give a pointercount: Castle has the size, strength, and athleticism that will be absolutely crucial for playoff success since the Spurs are going to have to be going through monsters like SGA, Luka, Ant, and Amen every year in this conference and will need someone who can make them work for their points instead of being automatic supernova every time the teams match up. His work ethic is supposed to be great and having the strength to finish at the rim in the NBA as well as he does at 20 years old makes me really excited about what he can develop into. Could definitely see him as another Jrue Holiday or maybe even another Alvin Roberston.

[scott]

On the Spurs with Wemby, sure. Wemby will take a lot of shots. And reasonably possible, not necessarily likely and best case scenario.

In a Fox #1 role, 23-25ppg on 19-20 FGA is very possible to me with development. Agree he doesn't have the speed or athleticism, but he has the strength and body control and size to maybe make up for it.
I think he'll be a very efficient (low-mid 50s% 2pt) in his prime and get to the line a lot. If he can get that 3% to mid 30s, he's an All-Star

I think Castle will be a very good player, I don't want to lose him. But I do pretty strongly disagree that becoming a 25ppg scorer is even within two sigma of his range of outcomes. That's just not his archetype. There are only 14 guys averaging 25ppg this season, only 3 of which are not high volume 3P shooters (5+ 3PA/gm. Giannis, Jokic, Davis... Castle obviously does not compare to those types of players). Last season, again only 14 guys averaged 25ppg, and again only 3 averaged less than 5 3PA/gm (Giannis, Shai and Jokic... Shai has obviously changed his game to include more 3s). Year before that, once again only 14 guys averaged 25ppg or more, and once again only 3 guys did it on under five 3PA/gm (Embiid, Shai, Giannis).

Could Steph become Shai? Sure, maybe. Could Steph become a capable volume 3P shooter? Sure, maybe. But I'd put less than a 5% chance of either of those things happening.

This isn't a knock on Steph at all. But we need to be real here.

I do think he can be an All Star though if he can get that 3P% into the mid 30s

[scott]

Rich Paul's magic is working.

But before you get too excited, don't forget that everyone thought Donovan Mitchell would just walk to New York.

1885148808964644901

[TD 21]

My prediction is Sac will want Castle and the Spurs will not want to trade Castle and that will be what makes the trade fall apart and not happen.

That was mine too . . . yesterday. But all the reporting at this writing seems to be that Castle is virtually untouchable, which means it probably hinges on Vassell.

I'm not sold on Castle becoming Holiday 2.0, but if they are, the thinking would be that he could eventually be something of a Fox replacement if he doesn't work out as expected or once he ages out of his prime.

The problem is, they're a poor fit together, especially considering the lack of surrounding shooting.

[Light]

Rich Paul's magic is working.

But before you get too excited, don't forget that everyone thought Donovan Mitchell would just walk to New York.

1885148808964644901

Are you're saying it would take a Donovan Mitchell type deal to prevent Fox from walking to SA?

[Spurs Homer]

We dont even know if mike brown spoke to the spurs mgmt and let them know Fox is a little bitch backstabber…

or…

maybe the opposite and …instead highly recommended him?

has mike brown signaled anything either way?

[KobesAchilles]

If it was a 1 in 3 chance at landing #1 and Flagg, I think there would be a case... but Harper, Bailey and Edgecomb are far from sure things... maybe a 20-40% chance they ever reach Fox's level.
You probably know better than me. But how different are Harper and Castle as players? To me they kinda have the same prototype. Big guards who aren’t really lead guards but could be passable at it. Both projected good defenders and both have a questionable jumper. Would they be able to co-exist? Or is Harper a bit of an upgrade to Castle?

[scott]

You probably know better than me. But how different are Harper and Castle as players? To me they kinda have the same prototype. Big guards who aren’t really lead guards but could be passable at it. Both projected good defenders and both have a questionable jumper. Would they be able to co-exist? Or is Harper a bit of an upgrade to Castle?

I think I'll summon SpursBills and Dejounte to answer that one, they are better at the college scouting stuff than I am. I was really high on Harper to start the season and thought he could even contend for the #1 pick - but I've cooled on him a little bit. Not to the degree that I wouldn't take him #2 or anything, but I don't think he's a slam dunk All Star by any means.

[scott]

We dont even know if mike brown spoke to the spurs mgmt and let them know Fox is a little bitch backstabber…

or…

maybe the opposite and …instead highly recommended him?

has mike brown signaled anything either way?

FWIW, supposedly Mike and Fox are close. They had dinner together after Mike was fired, and pictures surfaced on the net. Apparently Fox was pretty pissed at SAC for the heat being pinned on him for Mike's firing.

Also FWIW, that Damien Bartling guy (SAC reporter who was the first to suggest Fox could be traded) says that the Kings had deals for John Collins and Brandon Ingram done this summer, and Mike Brown said no because they were low IQ players. Damien says that SAC has too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to roster building (which aligns with them basically having two GMs and a pretty involved owner). I wonder if the "too many cooks" thing also applies to the Spurs (since we have RC, Pop and Wright).

[scott]

Are you're saying it would take a Donovan Mitchell type deal to prevent Fox from walking to SA?

I'm saying that just because the story is Fox will only extend with San Antonio now does not mean that Fox will only extend with San Antonio in the future. Maybe Fox ends up somewhere else and finds that he quite likes it. What is true today may not be true tomorrow.

[scott]

Can't see it in the embed but Demar's caption was "Me talking to Fox!"

DFdxIZzyn-3

[Light]

I'm saying that just because the story is Fox will only extend with San Antonio now does not mean that Fox will only extend with San Antonio in the future. Maybe Fox ends up somewhere else and finds that he quite likes it. What is true today may not be true tomorrow.

So the idea that Vassell sucks today, may not be true tomorrow. Got it.


I kid, of course. Thanks for clarifying!

[scott]

So the idea that Vassell sucks today, may not be true tomorrow. Got it.


I kid, of course. Thanks for clarifying!

I would love for Vassell to not suck tomorrow! I'm ready to convert to the Church of Devin! LORD SHOW ME A SIGN!

[024]

The Spurs should be signalling that Wemby and Castle are the players who are completely off limits. Fox has given the Spurs some leverage and they should use it to keep Castle. Kings can get one of the 2025 picks, depending on the rest of the package.

I do think the Spurs have the motivation to get a deal done before the trade deadline. The 2025 picks will greatly lose value after the lottery if neither hits. Right now, they at least have the potential to be top 4 and people with a gambling mindset who don't understand odds might overvalue those picks. Spurs should just pretend they are begrudgingly including Vassell to try to keep the ATL 2025 pick and get a deal done. Fox is a decent enough player who is a borderline all star with no major injury red flags.

[scott]

The Spurs should be signalling that Wemby and Castle are the players who are completely off limits. Fox has given the Spurs some leverage and they should use it to keep Castle. Kings can get one of the 2025 picks, depending on the rest of the package.

I do think the Spurs have the motivation to get a deal done before the trade deadline. The 2025 picks will greatly lose value after the lottery if neither hits. Right now, they at least have the potential to be top 4 and people with a gambling mindset who don't understand odds might overvalue those picks. Spurs should just pretend they are begrudgingly including Vassell to try to keep the ATL 2025 pick and get a deal done. Fox is a decent enough player who is a borderline all star with no major injury red flags.

You mean like the people on this message board? :lol

Good post.

I think what could help the Spurs (and I think Jake Fischer is doing the lords work in this regard with his report today) is for some rumors to get floated that we are working on another deal. Let SAC know that they aren't the only game in town and this boat may sail on without them... though we can't overplay that hand, because we wait to maintain the threat that Fox will only extend here. If we play like we aren't interested in Fox, then he may open up to other possibilities and we lose that leverage.

This is a fun strategic game being played out. I hope our FO is up to the task.

[goliath]

Re: Donovan Mitchell. The difference is that was more on NY than Mitchell. Between the trade and free agency NY got Brunson. That would be like if the kings traded Fox somewhere else and next offseason we trade for Halliburton.

[Dejounte]

You mean like the people on this message board? :lol

Good post.

I think what could help the Spurs (and I think Jake Fischer is doing the lords work in this regard with his report today) is for some rumors to get floated that we are working on another deal. Let SAC know that they aren't the only game in town and this boat may sail on without them... though we can't overplay that hand, because we wait to maintain the threat that Fox will only extend here. If we play like we aren't interested in Fox, then he may open up to other possibilities and we lose that leverage.

This is a fun strategic game being played out. I hope our FO is up to the task.

even having cap space in 2026 seems like it was planned for exactly this type of situation as opposed to planning for that specific free agency to arrive. The maximum flexibility really seems to be working in their favor for this exact situation. Now if it was Fox they targeted all long and they CIA Pop’ed this years ago with each move meticulously planned…what amazing foresight.

[TrainOfThought5]

There's no goddamn way I would give up Castle. I like Fox but Castle will end up the better player. Rather pursue other avenues.

this is no way shape form or fashioned guaranteed

[100%duncan]

You mean like the people on this message board? :lol

Good post.

I think what could help the Spurs (and I think Jake Fischer is doing the lords work in this regard with his report today) is for some rumors to get floated that we are working on another deal. Let SAC know that they aren't the only game in town and this boat may sail on without them... though we can't overplay that hand, because we wait to maintain the threat that Fox will only extend here. If we play like we aren't interested in Fox, then he may open up to other possibilities and we lose that leverage.

This is a fun strategic game being played out. I hope our FO is up to the task.

20 days from now

"The Spurs FO was not up to the task"

[Mikesatx]

I don’t think this is overly complicated.

Fox has made it clear that he wants to be in San Antonio. I’m assuming his primary reason is to win championships, pro-long his career and the family ties. If that is true he isn’t going to want the Spurs to give away the farm if it means the championship piece becomes more difficult to obtain. Which then suggests, if he is confident that he is the Spurs top target and would wait for him until free agency I think he exercises patience. That then puts the Spurs in a position where they make a decent offer (not including Castle) and are really only competing with other teams that would be willing to offer more knowing they will only likely have him for potentially the rest of this year and next. If you want him now what is the price that is just good enough to be better than anyone else is willing to give for a rental?

If Fox, the Spurs & Wemby are all on the same page this is easy. The risk for the Spurs is something happens injury wise to Wemby. The risk to Fox is he sustains a serious injury.

That being said I don’t think anything happens next week. I think it happens after the draft order is determined.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I’m enjoying the back and forth discussion about Fox’s possible value in a Spurs deal. I imagine it’d be hefty and a bit uncomfortable for a lot of posters but would probably get done.

That said, people who expect him to actually wait until he’s a free agent in 2026 to come to the Spurs (and lose a ton of money in the process) are living in a dreamland. Fox and Klutch are not saying the things they are in a vacuum, everyone knows what it’s about - leverage. Fox wants to get paid and he wants a good spot for his future. He knows Spurs are interested and he’s pushing for a deal now, when it’s very likely that for both the Spurs and Sacramento the summer would be better timing. If the deal couldn’t be completed Fox’s list will easily grow and he’ll happily extend with another team before even thinking of becoming a free agent in 2026. Nobody seriously believes that, it’s just posturing.

The obstacle for the Spurs, should they decide to wait until the summer, is that there might be other teams willing to drive the price up. Houston could easily outbid the Spurs unless we land a top 4 pick. The timing is important for the Spurs and they may need to act quicker than it seems comfortable for them.

[Arguendo]

I think Castle will be a very good player, I don't want to lose him. But I do pretty strongly disagree that becoming a 25ppg scorer is even within two sigma of his range of outcomes. That's just not his archetype.

Could Steph become Shai?
I love these discussions, appreciate your take, and admit maybe that was slightly optimistic for reasonably possible high-end. Rounding errors may also be a factor, like is 24.6Pts 25? No, but colloquially yes. Is that within two sigma?
To be clear, I didn't intend to imply Steph could ever be a 25/6/4 guy next to Wemby. With Wemby on the Spurs I'm hopeful that he could become an actual PG, and get to 19.5/7+/4+ All-D guy, and much closer to a #2b O guy then the high-end #2 O guy Fox is. I never meant to imply he'd be anything like 23-25ppg next to Wemby, meant it in the context as "the guy" in an outlier season on a maybe play-in team/prolly lottery team. Next to Wemby, I'd be shocked if he got to 22ppg due to usage and role.

But I like examples for context and obviously a counting stat like PTS comes down to FGA and minutes, which has many variables (health & conditioning, being #1, coach playing you big minutes, etc).

Let's use a hypothetical. Assume a 6'6" 6''9" wingspan lead guard, with plus strength & body control, and average NBA speed & athleticism, whose forte is attacking the rim. A guy that's taken 42% of shots at the rim, finishing at 66.4% before. Assume he develops his mid-range slightly, and has one or two seasons as a near average 3pt shooter. Assume he's the #1 guy on his team and his assists are generated by collapsing the D on him at the rim and he's smart enough to pick up a lot of fouls taking advantage of strength/body control. Assume his plus D and role leads his coach to keep him out there for 35-36+mpg. He's the #1 guy playing big minutes so he's getting 20FGA, getting 6 FTA, hitting .75% on FTs. Could that guy, shooting near average 3% during an outlier season score 20.1pts from the field on 20FGA? I that seems likely.
This players hits 64% @ 7.5FGA @ rim= 9.6pts, 34% on 5 3s= 5.1, 47% from mid @ 5= 4.7, 34% on 1.6 long 2s= 1.1pts. That's 20.5pts on 20 shots from the field + 4.5 freebies=25.0pts. I think Steph could get to 6FTA, 64% @rim (64% today), and 34% 3s for a season or two if he could ever get to 20FGA= highly unlikely, agree there.

The hypothetical is as a miscast #1. Similar to Fox (who's top-end #2, treadmill #1- who's sustained 25ppg for 5 seasons) but the hypothetical guy is a lesser O guy, a #2b, and might hit 25 once or twice at peak usage during an outlier season.

He'll never be Shai (a 33ppg guy-32.5) nor did I imply anything close, but similar body to take the contact, get to the line 6+/per on volume (huge to get to 25ppg, got to live at the line, Steph's at 3.2 FTA @ 10.7FGA, 5.98FTA @ 20FGA), and stay on the floor for D and ball-handling, health permitting.
This could never happen next to Wemby and would require continued, marginal development, and a significant jump in 3s in near league avg once or twice.


But his January numbers put him at 21.75ppg on 18.9 shots, at his current level. And his current rim% and FT rate don't look like flukes, if anything I'd expect him to draw more fouls and finish better moving forward.
Small sample size, 11 games, 13.4% of a single season. But getting that first 40% of your first NBA season under you belt, knowing you belong and are already bigger and stronger than a lot of these guys, and turning it on seems realistic and sustainable, I think that's what January was.

[Mikesatx]

I don’t think this draws out to his free agency. I believe there is communication between the Spurs and his agent. The Kings won’t let this run until he is a free agent and get nothing. The owner will make his best pitch to convince him to stay which I think will be futile. From the Kings perspective you do what’s best for your franchise but the offers should become less appealing over time. The Spurs should make an offer that is reasonable given the parameters. Is there any team that is a stud point guard away from a title? I can’t think of any. The Kings have a shit hand. They know it, the Spurs know it and I think the quietness on the Spurs part is the correct move.

[scott]

I love these discussions too Arguendo and I appreciate we can have them without calling each other names. It's a good chat!

I see your reasoning, I just struggle to see it myself. In we transported Castle to the pre-Wemby Spurs and let him have all the usage he wanted, I think he'd be less likely than Vassell to lead the team in scoring, just based on his style of play, but I think he'd still be the better player. I could definitely be wrong though. I think his 22ppg in January come not in spite of Wemby's USG, but because of it. You see Wemby as limiting Steph's scoring potential, but I actually see it as increasing it because of the attention that Wemby draws. I personally don't see Steph as an archetype who can be the team leading scorer (which is totally okay, we don't need him to be!). But, I could be wrong. I definitely think a Fox/Castle/Wemby big 3 in the future could be killer. I think Fox's 3P shooting (or lack thereof) is overblown. He isn't a guy who teams are leaving wide open to take 3s, and I think the spacing in the long run will be fine so long as Castle develops into a decent shooter like I think he will.

[scott]

I’m enjoying the back and forth discussion about Fox’s possible value in a Spurs deal. I imagine it’d be hefty and a bit uncomfortable for a lot of posters but would probably get done.

That said, people who expect him to actually wait until he’s a free agent in 2026 to come to the Spurs (and lose a ton of money in the process) are living in a dreamland. Fox and Klutch are not saying the things they are in a vacuum, everyone knows what it’s about - leverage. Fox wants to get paid and he wants a good spot for his future. He knows Spurs are interested and he’s pushing for a deal now, when it’s very likely that for both the Spurs and Sacramento the summer would be better timing. If the deal couldn’t be completed Fox’s list will easily grow and he’ll happily extend with another team before even thinking of becoming a free agent in 2026. Nobody seriously believes that, it’s just posturing.

The obstacle for the Spurs, should they decide to wait until the summer, is that there might be other teams willing to drive the price up. Houston could easily outbid the Spurs unless we land a top 4 pick. The timing is important for the Spurs and they may need to act quicker than it seems comfortable for them.


Great post. I think there is another possibility here that isn't being discussed. If the Spurs land pick #4... maybe they just send that outright to SAC with their own swap and that gets the job done because SAC is in love with the idea of Ace Bailey and Klutch is playing hardball. It might be overly optimistic, but I don't think totally out of the realm of possibility.

[Arguendo]

What do you view as his archetype?
To me, his archetype is very difficult to say right now except he not a #1 because I've only seen him for 1 season at UConn selflessly doing what was asked as an 18y/o on a championship team & 1/2 a season playing next to Wemby and behind Paul. I know he's big/strong/under control and repeated takes it to the rim (gets to the line better than Maxey, Fox, Ant, Cade, Mitch this yr). And he seems to be a very hard worker. I'm curious to get your comp, like I said I like examples.

Obviously true #1s shape those around him, he's not that. Offensively/scoring on a good team, I doubt he's more than a serviceable #2 but with offsetting D and hopefully creation.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Great post. I think there is another possibility here that isn't being discussed. If the Spurs land pick #4... maybe they just send that outright to SAC with their own swap and that gets the job done because SAC is in love with the idea of Ace Bailey and Klutch is playing hardball. It might be overly optimistic, but I don't think totally out of the realm of possibility.

Yeah there are a ton of reasons why a summer deal would suit both teams more (and a couple of drawbacks). For one, the value of ‘25 picks could vary too much and it’d be difficult for them to get to a consensus before the lottery. Spurs would obviously look crazy if they hand Sacramento Flagg or Harper plus additional future picks. On the other hand Sacramento will look at these picks as a 10th and 11th pick type value in a range that appears disappointing.

Klutch and Fox are a third party in this, with their own agenda. They should not be seen as a party that is on the Spurs side, make no mistake. They are the ones pushing hard to get a deal done now because they want security - both financial and also to get to the place he wants to be at. They’d know the Spurs would have other options as well, especially come the summer.

[scott]

I agree, it's tough to say. "Two-way playmaker" is kind of a generic thing to say, but that's the best I can think of. I think he'll develop a nice middy and become a decent 3P shooter which will really open things up for him and force teams to respect him more, but I don't even see him becoming a true #2 scorer. A guy who can drop 30 from time to time, but probably more of that Spurs Derrick White type who can be a 15ppg guy, play great defense, create events on the defensive end. I think 16/5/5 is kind of where I ultimately see him. Derrick is a 16/4/4 guy this year but 75% of his shots are from 3P so he's really changed as a player.

Like you said, it's tough... but 2020-21 Spurs Derrick White is kind of what I see as his 80th percentile outcome, but with a little less reliance on the 3 ball (Derrick's shot diet was still 50% 3PA that year but he averaged 15.4/3/3.5 - I think Steph can improve on those numbers)

[Ice009]

I think Stephon can easily be a 20, 5, 5 type of player. He could average more points depending on his jumper/three point shot, but IMO, he's got a higher ceiling than Derrick ppg wise. Then again, I wonder what Derrick would average on a different team that needs him to score more. Derrick has a lot more confidence than he had when he used to play for the Spurs.

[Bruno]

Right now, I think the best strategy for Spurs is to make a low ball offer. This offer must just be high enough not to upset Kings and Fox's camp. This offer will likely be rejected but it will be fine because the ideal timing to get Fox for Spurs is this summer. His trade value will then be lower and Spurs will then know what picks they are getting in the 2025 draft.

The risk with that is that another team might swoop him at this deadline or that Fox changes his mind and decides to stay in Sacramento.

[tbdog]

If spurs want this, it'll happen. They'll offer a fair deal and Klutch will make it happen. But it's on the spurs wanting him. They won't get a bargain per say. But fox isn't a 3 firsts plus 2 pick swap player. Especially on what's left on his contract.

[RC_Drunkford]

I'm telling y'all there are ways to get this done without giving up the future core of Castle, Vassell, Sochan (I know a lot of y'all hate the last 2, but that's how I think the Spurs view the roster).

The Kings want John Collins, who was a fringe All-Star at some point and is a high end role player. If we can make this a 3-team deal and get them Collins plus let's say 2 first rounders that should be a realistic possibility. Keep in mind that the ATL 27 holds more value than other first round picks, since it's unprotected. They would also get their swap back and to sweeten the deal we can take on Huerter who they been trying to get rid off for a while now. Huerter would immediately be in our rotation since we lack shooting.

Utah is tanking and Collins doesn't seem to be worth 2 firsts. So you send Utah a first and a bunch of 2nds while giving them what we have a lot of: tank commanders. Since Utah's coach is ex-Spurs assistant Will Hardy, we do right by our players to send them to a coach they know and they get more playing time to increase their numbers.

something like:

Spurs: Huerter, Fox

Kings: John Collins, CP3, Tre Jones, ATL 27, CHI 25, Kings swap back (this gives the Kings 20 million in expiring contracts as well)

Jazz: Keldon Johnson, Branham, Spurs 25, 2 second round picks

might even be a bigger 4 team deal. You can also reroute salary to Detroit so the Kings can get a trade exception.

[LeBowen]

Every report says Fox is gone and that Spurs are his preferred destination.
Very few teams in the league have the assets to make a solid offer if Fox is even interested in joining them.
There's also a report that says Kings can't expect a return to what Jazz got for Mitchell.
Cavs kept their three most important assets in Mitchell trade (Mobley, Garland and Allen), gave up their own picks an swaps from '25 to '29 which are projected to be bad.
If Wright gives up Castle he has to go because he has no negotiating skills and will get bent over in every single trade.

It's not even about Castle as a player, but evaluating our front office's competence. And Castle is our most valuable asset after Wemby.

[Light]

I agree, it's tough to say. "Two-way playmaker" is kind of a generic thing to say, but that's the best I can think of. I think he'll develop a nice middy and become a decent 3P shooter which will really open things up for him and force teams to respect him more, but I don't even see him becoming a true #2 scorer. A guy who can drop 30 from time to time, but probably more of that Spurs Derrick White type who can be a 15ppg guy, play great defense, create events on the defensive end. I think 16/5/5 is kind of where I ultimately see him. Derrick is a 16/4/4 guy this year but 75% of his shots are from 3P so he's really changed as a player.

Like you said, it's tough... but 2020-21 Spurs Derrick White is kind of what I see as his 80th percentile outcome, but with a little less reliance on the 3 ball (Derrick's shot diet was still 50% 3PA that year but he averaged 15.4/3/3.5 - I think Steph can improve on those numbers)


I think Castle can become a legit #2 scorer, if given the chance. In the 23 games he's played 25+ minutes (I assume he'd get at least that much PT as a #2), he is averaging 15.7 pts, 3.8 ast, and 2.9 rbs. We'll see how the rest of the season plays out, but that level of production is not too far off from the 16/5/5 you're projecting.

IF the sample size is indicative of his baseline, a bump in his efficiency or attempts should get him into the 17-18ppg range, while an improvement in both would make becoming a 20ppg scorer likely, imo

[buttsR4rebounding]

And, every day that passes is another opportunity for said vultures to swoop in. I’m of the mind that if this doesn’t get done in the next 7 days, it’s not ever going to get done.

So you're saying if it doesn't get done by the trade deadline then it's not going to happen. Man, that is one BOLD take...

[SpursBills]

I think I'll summon SpursBills (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=18470) and Dejounte (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=51342) to answer that one, they are better at the college scouting stuff than I am. I was really high on Harper to start the season and thought he could even contend for the #1 pick - but I've cooled on him a little bit. Not to the degree that I wouldn't take him #2 or anything, but I don't think he's a slam dunk All Star by any means.

Role-wise Harper is much closer to Fox than he is to Castle, although he achieves his goals differently. The more I see of Castle, the more I view him as a secondary and not a primary initiator - I don't see him as an automatic paint touch due to athletic and speed limitations and he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who will consistently draw 2 and scramble defenses. His virtues come from being well rounded in other areas and his POA defense. This is actually why I harp on his rebounding as well - if your shooting is limited, and you can't be a primary, you have to be really valuable in literally every other area to be the high level player that we all want him to be.

Harper will probably be a decent defender at the next level, but his money is going to be made on offense since he's going to be an automatic paint touch. He's one of the few guys in this class who can consistently generate an advantage without a screen and has a higher proportion of rim shots to non-rim shots compared to any freshman guard in the last several years. Fox was the same way, but he just does it with speed whereas Harper does it with strength/craft. I have some concerns about how that will translate if his jumper is iffy, but these are the exact same strengths/weaknesses that Fox had/has. If he can't get to the rim at the next level consistently, he will bust, which a little different than Castle who will still be very valuable as a player even if he does not consistently generate paint touches.

EDIT: Bust is probably too strong a word as he will still be a good sized guard with good vision, but suffice to say that his value will significantly diminish

[RC_Drunkford]

Stats support the argument that Castle is more of a secondary playmaker. His net rating with CP3 and Tre Jones is up while it‘s down significantly when he plays point.

[CGD]

Rich Paul's magic is working.

But before you get too excited, don't forget that everyone thought Donovan Mitchell would just walk to New York.

1885148808964644901

That and Spider, at the time of his trade (maybe even now), is the better player.

[CGD]

Right now, I think the best strategy for Spurs is to make a low ball offer. This offer must just be high enough not to upset Kings and Fox's camp. This offer will likely be rejected but it will be fine because the ideal timing to get Fox for Spurs is this summer. His trade value will then be lower and Spurs will then know what picks they are getting in the 2025 draft.

The risk with that is that another team might swoop him at this deadline or that Fox changes his mind and decides to stay in Sacramento.

Bingo. Sounds like if another team did take him now, it’s knowing he’d be a rental. This seems as much about Klutch getting a client next to Wemby, as it is about Fox wanting to move on.

[rascal]

Keep Castle and both SA 25 and Atlanta 25

Offer Vassell. Johnson and Sochan and three number 1s. If Sac doesn't want it then walk away. Spurs should be in the drivers seat and get what they want to build the core of a dynasty.

I believe if the Spurs keep both their and Atlanta's 25 picks that is going to turn into a top 4 pick. I'm willing to take the odds on that. Those odds have a good chance to be 34% or higher.

Wemby, Fox, Castle, a number 4 pick in 25 and another top 10 pick in 25 is a core for a dynasty and also moves off Vassell, Sochan and Johnson.

[Davidicus]

The rental thing is not real. Just a talk track for Fox Klutch to get what they want. Too much money to lose without Bird rights.

In my mind, when looking at the PROS for each team, by time block, it’s:

Trade Deadline:
SAC: Best return in value
SA: can lock in Fox and eliminate the competition

Summer:
SAC: more teams interested, because (assuming) Fox becomes more open to other teams because he won’t want to lose Bird money. This in theory raises trade value with greater supply of bidders.
SA: Lower offer to SAC vs Feb deadline (but still has to beat the increase in competition). This is where IMO things get dicey. Specifically, Fox has to keep tooting the “SA-only” horn or we may end up bidding the same or higher than Feb deadline offer. Also, SA is crystal clear on 2025 draft order, which eliminates risk.

2026:
I’m not clear what happens here if we go into 2025-26 season and he’s still on the Kings, and how that looks for us. But I assume he at least gets moved by the trade deadline.


What did I miss?

[4lifecowboy]

I’m enjoying the back and forth discussion about Fox’s possible value in a Spurs deal. I imagine it’d be hefty and a bit uncomfortable for a lot of posters but would probably get done.

That said, people who expect him to actually wait until he’s a free agent in 2026 to come to the Spurs (and lose a ton of money in the process) are living in a dreamland. Fox and Klutch are not saying the things they are in a vacuum, everyone knows what it’s about - leverage. Fox wants to get paid and he wants a good spot for his future. He knows Spurs are interested and he’s pushing for a deal now, when it’s very likely that for both the Spurs and Sacramento the summer would be better timing. If the deal couldn’t be completed Fox’s list will easily grow and he’ll happily extend with another team before even thinking of becoming a free agent in 2026. Nobody seriously believes that, it’s just posturing.

The obstacle for the Spurs, should they decide to wait until the summer, is that there might be other teams willing to drive the price up. Houston could easily outbid the Spurs unless we land a top 4 pick. The timing is important for the Spurs and they may need to act quicker than it seems comfortable for them.

I think its the opposite, him making it public drives down the price, kinda like what Kawhi did when he stated he wanted to play in LA

[CGD]

The gossip about teams monitoring Keldon is also noteworthy. Probably trying to prop up his value, since the spurs are probably starting with a Keldon-centric offer.

[Dverde]

The gossip about teams monitoring Keldon is also noteworthy. Probably trying to prop up his value, since the spurs are probably starting with a Keldon-centric offer.

He does have a gold medal. I do think Keldon is capable of a bounce back year, he’s 3 point shot has been broken all year. I’d rather toss in Zollins or Tre if it’s a matter of salary filler.

[LeBowen]

Teams could be interested in Keldon as a bench piece they can have for cheap, not as a centerpiece in a trade for an all-star.
If there's a single offer with positive assets as a return, it has to be done before the deadline. Keldon has outlived his purpose with the Spurs.
He got paid, got a gold medal just because Pop was coaching, now it's time to go.

[vy65]

FWIW, supposedly Mike and Fox are close. They had dinner together after Mike was fired, and pictures surfaced on the net. Apparently Fox was pretty pissed at SAC for the heat being pinned on him for Mike's firing.

Also FWIW, that Damien Bartling guy (SAC reporter who was the first to suggest Fox could be traded) says that the Kings had deals for John Collins and Brandon Ingram done this summer, and Mike Brown said no because they were low IQ players. Damien says that SAC has too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to roster building (which aligns with them basically having two GMs and a pretty involved owner). I wonder if the "too many cooks" thing also applies to the Spurs (since we have RC, Pop and Wright).

https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5ccafc3f2300003300948565.jpeg

Bring our boy home RC

[spurraider21]

tbh if they insisnt on castle, im making them take on zollins/branham and not giving more than 1 FRP, and im definitely not giving them best of 2025

[tim_duncan_fan]

Keldon can absolutely give a bad team a meaningless 23 ppg. Smart of them to start with him.


tbh if they insisnt on castle, im making them take on zollins/branham and not giving more than 1 FRP, and im definitely not giving them best of 2025

Exactly, Castle + multiple firsts is too much for a player that hasn't moved the needle historically.

[LeBowen]

tbh if they insisnt on castle, im making them take on zollins/branham and not giving more than 1 FRP, and im definitely not giving them best of 2025

As I wrote earlier, at this point Castle as an asset isn't even about Fox, but Wright's competence.
Cavs got Mitchell with late FRPs and still kept their three most valuable players.
Knicks also kept their three most important players while getting KAT and Bridges in the process.
OKC got Caruso just for Giddey they were trying to get rid of, anyway. Didn't give up any of their key rotation players.

Competent GMs don't give up their most valuable assets in trades for disgruntled players.

[Leetonidas]

Is this guy a Spur yet? Hurry up

[Dverde]

Would getting Devin Carter back in exchange for Castle make it more doable for the Spurs? Spurs were rumored to be interested in him during the draft workouts.

[Leetonidas]

As I wrote earlier, at this point Castle as an asset isn't even about Fox, but Wright's competence.
Cavs got Mitchell with late FRPs and still kept their three most valuable players.
Knicks also kept their three most important players while getting KAT and Bridges in the process.
OKC got Caruso just for Giddey they were trying to get rid of, anyway. Didn't give up any of their key rotation players.

Competent GMs don't give up their most valuable assets in trades for disgruntled players.

It depends on what SAC wants though. Cleveland and NY were able to offer pick heavy deals because Utah and Brooklyn are tanking. Sacramento has a dumb FO and they want to try and remain competitive despite their ill fitting roster. so they may not be as interested in a pick heavy package. Which is why I'm hopeful they're stupid enough to take Vassell and Keldon off our hands :lol

[spurraider21]

Fox seems like a 3 FRP player (not heavily protected picks). hes a very good but not elite player, about to get his 3rd contract. the spurs should value castle as 2 FRP right now. first round pedigree who half a season in clearly belongs and is already a meaningful contributor to a marginally competitive team

[CGD]

He does have a gold medal. I do think Keldon is capable of a bounce back year, he’s 3 point shot has been broken all year. I’d rather toss in Zollins or Tre if it’s a matter of salary filler.

In a three way to the Bulls were Lavine goes to SAC and Fox to SA, i think Keldon + Tre's expiring to the Bulls offers us the best way to keep as much draft capital as possible. Not sure SAC will need much if any draft compensation in that deal given their decreasing leverage, and Lavine's trade market has been depressed for some time given his bad contract. SAC has also been linked to Lavine in the past.

Put differently, we would offer the Bulls:
1. Their pick back
2. immediate AND long term cap flexibility from a bad contract
3. a solid rotation player on a descending deal (plus Tre's Birds Rights)

[LeBowen]

It depends on what SAC wants though. Cleveland and NY were able to offer pick heavy deals because Utah and Brooklyn are tanking. Sacramento has a dumb FO and they want to try and remain competitive despite their ill fitting roster. so they may not be as interested in a pick heavy package. Which is why I'm hopeful they're stupid enough to take Vassell and Keldon off our hands :lol

Castle isn't a good fit with their roster if they're to keep competing.
They're 20th in 3pta and 22nd in 3pt%. Replace Fox with Castle and it gets way worse.

Cavs and NY offered their own picks that convey while they're projected to still be competing.
Jazz got 3 FRPS and 2 swaps from '25 to '29, Cavs should be one of top contenders in those years.
Nets got 4 FRPs from '25 to '31, that 20131 pick looks interesting, others not so much.

SAC getting their swap back gives them more options and I'd say that one of those ATL picks is more valuable than CLE or NYK late FRPs.
For example I suggested they could get Hunter and their '25 pick back with 2 ATL picks.

And as you said, let's just hope they're dumb. After all, we're talking a franchise that paid us to take a reliable wing so they can give 35 year old DDR a long-term deal.

[RC_Drunkford]

a lot of interesting inside information in this video from a Spurs reporter. Apparently the Spurs view Castle, Sochan, Vassell, Keldon Johnson and Tre Jones as part of the core. Keldon especially cause of what he does off the floor. He's the locker room leader and he's very funny and everybody laughs with him. I can't with the apporach of this organization. :lmao How about valuing on court production?

Multiple people are also saying that Pop is back at the practice facility. The Spurs were also looking at the Bulls' fire sale.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1_VGK42YXg

[LeBowen]

a lot of interesting inside information in this video from a Spurs reporter. Apparently the Spurs view Castle, Sochan, Vassell, Keldon Johnson and Tre Jones as part of the core. Keldon especially cause of what he does off the floor. He's the locker room leader and he's very funny and everybody laughs with him. I can't with the apporach of this organization. :lmao How about valuing on court production?

If this is true, forget about Fox, not even Jokic can help us.

[z0sa]

Is this guy a Spur yet? Hurry up

Apparently Kings owner wants to wine and dine Fox in hopes he'll stay or at least hold out for the best offers possible on Sunday.

Hoping Monday we have beautiful news

[Mal]

Hopefully this bullshit about Keldon being core is negotiation tactic

[Leetonidas]

a lot of interesting inside information in this video from a Spurs reporter. Apparently the Spurs view Castle, Sochan, Vassell, Keldon Johnson and Tre Jones as part of the core. Keldon especially cause of what he does off the floor. He's the locker room leader and he's very funny and everybody laughs with him. I can't with the apporach of this organization. :lmao How about valuing on court production?

Multiple people are also saying that Pop is back at the practice facility. The Spurs were also looking at the Bulls' fire sale.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1_VGK42YXg

Good god... we're so fucked :lol I hope this is just nonsense and none of these dudes are actually plugged in because if PATFO really believes guys like Jones and Keldon are core players, Wemby is definitely not staying here forever

[Jordan Jackson]

a lot of interesting inside information in this video from a Spurs reporter. Apparently the Spurs view Castle, Sochan, Vassell, Keldon Johnson and Tre Jones as part of the core. Keldon especially cause of what he does off the floor. He's the locker room leader and he's very funny and everybody laughs with him. I can't with the apporach of this organization. :lmao How about valuing on court production?

Multiple people are also saying that Pop is back at the practice facility. The Spurs were also looking at the Bulls' fire sale.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1_VGK42YXg

Sochan,Vassell, Jones, Johnson core lol

Spurs are such an unserious organization. What? They think they’re going to use the power of “Friendship” to win a championship.

Keldon makes them laugh? Great, because he makes anyone who likes winning cry.

[BatManu20]

1885383467535372338

[024]

The KJ buzz is interesting.. Spurs doing their job trying to raise his value. A KJ + Tre Jones + SA'25 + 2 more FRPs should be the opening offer. Then either throw in Sochan or 1 more FRP. Looking at the other teams who are interested, that's already more than what most teams can offer. Kings can flip Sochan later for another FRP if they don't want to keep him.

I think Sochan should be considered expendable as long as he still has trade value as I just don't see the greatest long term fit on the team. Vassell can be salvageable with his 3 pt shooting and he's on a decent role player salary as it decreases while the cap goes up. Having the ball more in Fox and Castle's hands should remove some of the decision-making Vassell has to make, which can be poor at times.

[LkrFan]

Keep Castle and both SA 25 and Atlanta 25

Offer Vassell. Johnson and Sochan and three number 1s. If Sac doesn't want it then walk away. Spurs should be in the drivers seat and get what they want to build the core of a dynasty.

I believe if the Spurs keep both their and Atlanta's 25 picks that is going to turn into a top 4 pick. I'm willing to take the odds on that. Those odds have a good chance to be 34% or higher.

Wemby, Fox, Castle, a number 4 pick in 25 and another top 10 pick in 25 is a core for a dynasty and also moves off Vassell, Sochan and Johnson.

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