De'Aaron Fox Rumors Suggest a Possible Trade to The Spurs

[CorrectCrusader]

Source (https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6010644/2024/12/21/deaaron-fox-kings-contract-trade-nba-spurs/)

"Meanwhile, rival executives are monitoring the Fox situation closely and league sources say one team in particular — the San Antonio Spurs — is positioning itself to pursue the Houston native as a possible partner for Victor Wembanyama, should Fox become available. Barring a significant Kings turnaround, others are surely close behind."

[John B]

Fox/Castle/Wemby future Big 3.

[CorrectCrusader]

Worth noting that EPM metrics put Fox at 56th, (Wemby is 7th, CP3 is 52nd)

[tbdog]

I think this just just Rich Paul way of trying to get the Kings to do something first. They lose Fox, they are done.

[scott]

Will be disappointed if this thread isn't 100 pages by Feb 6

[Dejounte]

Bring him home.

[scott]

Worth noting that EPM metrics put Fox at 56th, (Wemby is 7th, CP3 is 52nd)

Fox is 95th percentile in O-EPM, 75th percentile in D-EPM and 94th percentile in overall EPM.

https://i.ibb.co/WnzD3gy/Screenshot-2024-12-21-110054.png

[stnick2261]

What would it take?

[Mr. Body]

At his desired salary? Ain't never going to happen.

[CGD]

So what are the trade (1) at the deadline, and (2) summer?

[baseline bum]

At his desired salary? Ain't never going to happen.

A 30% max deal seems reasonable for him, especially with 10% compounded bumps to the salary cap every year from the new TV/Streaming deal that ensure the contract becomes cheaper over time relative to the cap even if they give him max raises. For example for a five year deal with a 30% max base salary and max 8% raises (non-compounded) that fifth year would be 24.6% of the cap.

[onechance87]

For devin vassell and maybe a first or two first rounds.

[CGD]

They’re trying to get off the Huerter deal, so that might be mutually beneficial (we’d need some shooting if Dev is moved).

SAC: Dev; Keldon; protected FRP
SAS: Fox; Huerter

[CorrectCrusader]

Fox is 95th percentile in O-EPM, 75th percentile in D-EPM and 94th percentile in overall EPM.

https://i.ibb.co/WnzD3gy/Screenshot-2024-12-21-110054.png


https://i.imgur.com/MSIT8mA.png

Edit: I see where you're getting your stats from. I'm not sure why the stats are different for me
Edit 2: I'm not sure I trust the EPM tab vs this because it's listing players that haven't even played yet this season (Kawhi)

[LeBowen]

They’re trying to get off the Huerter deal, so that might be mutually beneficial (we’d need some shooting if Dev is moved).

SAC: Dev; Keldon; protected FRP
SAS: Fox; Huerter

Getting rid of Huerter only to add Keldon makes no sense for them, lateral move.
I'd take Huerter and then we can use him in another trade. I'd send Devin+Tre for Fox+Huerter, they'd lower their salaries by $12M and have an extra $9M if they decide to let Tre walk this summer.

I'm not sure, but I think scott wrote Keldon-Cam and Collins-Valanciunas trades would be legal even though we'd be sending out more money than receiving and those would put us at around the same level salary wise.

Kings pick returned and two more FRPs for Fox since we're taking Huerter and Devin is worth at least a couple of pick if you take his contract into account.
FRP and SRPs for Cam, SRPs for Valanciunas.

[timtonymanu]

Will be disappointed if this thread isn't 100 pages by Feb 6

Thread title should have read “There’s Fox to Spurs buzz.” I’m disappointed.

[Kevin]

Dev, Atl 26 swap and Kings 31 pick. Seem like a start point .

[tbdog]

Honestly, do you think Fox and Castle will co-exist, let alone CP3 for this season?

[LeBowen]

Dev, Atl 26 swap and Kings 31 pick. Seem like a start point .

I wouldn't trade '26 ATL swap because we'd also be losing our own pick and we'd have none in '26 draft.
We're definitely not drafting two rookies from '25 draft, one of those picks is either going to be traded away or both get consolidated to trade up.
If we get Fox, we'll be projected to make the playoffs, meaning we should be trading SAS '25 and '27 instead of Hawks picks.

We keep flexibility by having a pick each year.

I t hink Devin, Tre, '31 swap returned, '25, '27 SAS for Fox and Huerter would be a fair trade.
They can also have anyone except Castle, Jeremy, Champagnie if they're interested. Or some more SRPs.

Or as one Kings fan wrote, welcome back Harrison Barnes. :lmao


Honestly, do you think Fox and Castle will co-exist, let alone CP3 for this season?

Three man guard rotation.
CP3 is at 28, Castle is at 27mpg right now. Leaving us with 41 available guard minutes.
Fox is at 37, but Spurs don't do that, let's say he'd be at 33 with us.
Remaining minutes can go to Champagnie, Champ/Barnes/Jeremy with a point guard and Wemby would work well.

[scott]

https://i.imgur.com/MSIT8mA.png

Edit: I see where you're getting your stats from. I'm not sure why the stats are different for me
Edit 2: I'm not sure I trust the EPM tab vs this because it's listing players that haven't even played yet this season (Kawhi)

I think one tab builds a projection based on the last two seasons whereas the tab you are looking at is this season (which is probably the right one to look at).

One of these days I'll just need to suck it up and get a subscription, but I've been liking CraftedNBA's free tools.

[MannyIsGod]

Would they even want Devin? If Sac is blowing it up wouldn't they just want more draft capital? I bet we could match salary without Devin. If the Spurs are giving up significant draft capital then I'm not going to send Devin in the trade. Definitely think Fox would be worth getting though.

[scott]

I wouldn't trade '26 ATL swap because we'd also be losing our own pick and we'd have none in '26 draft.
We're definitely not drafting two rookies from '25 draft, one of those picks is either going to be traded away or both get consolidated to trade up.
If we get Fox, we'll be projected to make the playoffs, meaning we should be trading SAS '25 and '27 instead of Hawks picks.

We keep flexibility by having a pick each year.

I t hink Devin, Tre, '31 swap returned, '25, '27 SAS for Fox and Huerter would be a fair trade.
They can also have anyone except Castle, Jeremy, Champagnie if they're interested. Or some more SRPs.

Or as one Kings fan wrote, welcome back Harrison Barnes. :lmao



Three man guard rotation.
CP3 is at 28, Castle is at 27mpg right now. Leaving us with 41 available guard minutes.
Fox is at 37, but Spurs don't do that, let's say he'd be at 33 with us.
Remaining minutes can go to Champagnie, Champ/Barnes/Jeremy with a point guard and Wemby would work well.

To make salaries work for Fox and Huerter, Spurs would have to add Branham to Devin and Tre.

https://i.imgflip.com/9ejrox.jpg

[scott]

To make salaries work for Fox and Huerter, Spurs would have to add Branham to Devin and Tre.



In this scenario, SAC would have to waive someone... or they can send us Doug McBuckets under the min play exception :smokin

[Mr. Body]

A 30% max deal seems reasonable for him, especially with 10% compounded bumps to the salary cap every year from the new TV/Streaming deal that ensure the contract becomes cheaper over time relative to the cap even if they give him max raises. For example for a five year deal with a 30% max base salary and max 8% raises (non-compounded) that fifth year would be 24.6% of the cap.

I guess. If the team didn't splurge on Markkanen I don't see them splurging on Fox. They seem averse to bigger contracts on players who may not fit. Fox is a small guard with a high usage of 30% and just turned 27. You might only be getting three years of this level from him, and frankly while it's the right skill set generally for one of our needs, he's not a big game changer.

And he's Klutch and is asking for a supermax. You're not trading for him at his current salary: he wants money and has been very clear about this.

[exstatic]

Would they even want Devin? If Sac is blowing it up wouldn't they just want more draft capital? I bet we could match salary without Devin. If the Spurs are giving up significant draft capital then I'm not going to send Devin in the trade. Definitely think Fox would be worth getting though.

We can’t have too many players who need to get paid. If the call is to move Devin,then we route him to a 3rd team that then sends the draft capital and necessary matching contracts to SAC,who sends Fox here.

[exstatic]

I guess. If the team didn't splurge on Markkanen I don't see them splurging on Fox. They seem averse to bigger contracts on players who may not fit. Fox is a small guard with a high usage of 30% and just turned 27. You might only be getting three years of this level from him, and frankly while it's the right skill set generally for one of our needs, he's not a big game changer.

And he's Klutch and is asking for a supermax. You're not trading for him at his current salary: he wants money and has been very clear about this.

The thing is, he’s not currently eligible for the SuperMax. He’d need an MVP, DPOY, or All NBA team appearance.

[Kevin]

The Kings are light on second rounders since they don't have one in 2025, 2028, 2030 so a bundle of second rounders should also be included.

People do have a point about Fox though. Only one year of being an elite top 12ish player. More of a top 30 guy two out of the last three years.

[itzsoweezee]

This is an offseason trade, at best. There’s absolutely no way Sacramento is letting Fox right now.

[CGD]

This is an offseason trade, at best. There’s absolutely no way Sacramento is letting Fox right now.

You’re probably right. Better for spurs anyway.

[Dejounte]

The Kings are light on second rounders since they don't have one in 2025, 2028, 2030 so a bundle of second rounders should also be included.

People do have a point about Fox though. Only one year of being an elite top 12ish player. More of a top 30 guy two out of the last three years.

The Spurs organic pathway to get an elite top 12 player has disappeared. They won’t be bad enough to be in the top 5 of the draft, and they’ll have to get really, really lucky to with that pick regardless since picking in the top 5 isn’t a guarantee (look at Risacher and Sarr who look like scrubs). The Spurs need to strike at some point and this might be the closest they’ll get to sniff a player of Fox’s caliber.

[Dejounte]

The Spurs getting into the high lottery again means Castle would have busted, and I doubt anyone wants that tbh.

[Kevin]

The Spurs organic pathway to get an elite top 12 player has disappeared. They won’t be bad enough to be in the top 5 of the draft, and they’ll have to get really, really lucky to with that pick regardless since picking in the top 5 isn’t a guarantee (look at Risacher and Sarr who look like scrubs). The Spurs need to strike at some point and this might be the closest they’ll get to sniff a player of Fox’s caliber.

I want Fox for the record as holding other teams picks continues to look overrated.

Looking at Fox's counting stats he's been a chucker of late taking 20+ shots a game over the past two years. Only 6 assists per game feels disappointing for a PG of Fox's caliber.

Still tho we could only dream that Castle of Vessel could ever turn into this type of player. Go get him if you can.

[Dejounte]

For the 27 YeAR OLd iS TOo OlD nonsense

I make my point again that if we had the 27 year old version of Chris Paul right now, it would be game over the league. Let me make it clear that Fox isn’t on the level of a 27 year old Paul, but he’s good enough to where we’d just add one more nice piece (or one of our current ones become one) and it would still be “game over” for the league.

[PhantomDashCam]

Interested to watch this one play out.

Financially, KJ, Zollins and Tre J (and obviously significant draft capital) for Fox and Huerter works.

[Dejounte]

How this most likely plays out is nothing happens because the Spurs are conservative about what they want to give up. Then the few who are against this deal will frame it as if the Spurs were never interested without any clue what goes on behind closed doors. The truth could be is that the Spurs really, really want Fox and get close to a deal for him but last minute greed by the Kings causes them to reject it and go with something else. It’s like when people here pretend that the Spurs were never considering Salaun because it didn’t fit their narrative when there was plenty of signs they were.

[PhantomDashCam]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10148083-nba-trade-rumors-kyle-kuzma-jerami-grant-john-collins-more-linked-to-kings


According to Amick and Slater, Fox's agent Rich Paul was present at the Kings' loss to the Lakers in order to speak with general manager Monte McNair and assistant general manager Wes Wilcox about their "plan" for the franchise....

According to Amick and Slater, Fox hasn't asked for a trade but is "reading the room in Sacramento before deciding what comes next" when his current contract expires following the 2025-26 season.

[td4mvp2k]

for vassell straight up sounds good but not if he wants the max.. he ain't a player you give the farm.

[scott]

The Spurs getting into the high lottery again means Castle would have busted, and I doubt anyone wants that tbh.

That might not even be enough. Castle has been a net negative the last couple of games and it hasn't turned us into a bottom feeding team. We'll need Castle to bust and Wemby to miss considerable time to get back into the high lotto. We might get lucky with ping pong balls and turn a late lotto pick into a Top 4 selection, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time hoping for that to happen.

[Dejounte]

That might not even be enough. Castle has been a net negative the last couple of games and it hasn't turned us into a bottom feeding team. We'll need Castle to bust and Wemby to miss considerable time to get back into the high lotto. We might get lucky with ping pong balls and turn a late lotto pick into a Top 4 selection, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time hoping for that to happen.

Yeah I was more pointing to the seasons after this one. Castle needs to make a leap by next year. None of that year 3 crap. He has shown enough promise so far this season to expect that out of him besides being the 4th pick in the draft. If he is not a top 2 or top 3 player on next year’s roster, then he’s a bust and we should then be expecting a high pick out of our natural one for years to come.

but that isn’t the likely trajectory of the team right now. We’ve been floating at .500 so far and we’re likely to end the season around 40 wins. If that happens, next year’s win total won’t be less (a big part of it will be because of Castle). We’re not going to have a losing season again.

[baseline bum]

I guess. If the team didn't splurge on Markkanen I don't see them splurging on Fox. They seem averse to bigger contracts on players who may not fit. Fox is a small guard with a high usage of 30% and just turned 27. You might only be getting three years of this level from him, and frankly while it's the right skill set generally for one of our needs, he's not a big game changer.

And he's Klutch and is asking for a supermax. You're not trading for him at his current salary: he wants money and has been very clear about this.

He's not likely to be supermax eligible so will likely cost a 30% max deal. The wildcard I guess would be if in summer 2026 he signed a two year deal with an opt out after the first year to position himself for a 35% max deal in the summer of 2027 when he'd have ten years in the league.

[scott]

Yeah I was more pointing to the seasons after this one. Castle needs to make a leap by next year. None of that year 3 crap. He has shown enough promise so far this season to expect that out of him besides being the 4th pick in the draft. If he is not a top 2 or top 3 player on next year’s roster, then he’s a bust and we should then be expecting a high pick out of our natural one for years to come.

but that isn’t the likely trajectory of the team right now. We’ve been floating at .500 so far and we’re likely to end the season around 40 wins. If that happens, next year’s win total won’t be less (a big part of it will be because of Castle). We’re not going to have a losing season again.

Yeah, I'm talking about future seasons too. I think we can afford for one of Castle, Vassell or Sochan to be absolutely zeros in the future and still not have it result in us being a high lotto team so long as Wemby is healthy. I agree with you, it's time for us to stop thinking that the draft is going to be our pathway to finish building out the team.

I love this thread because it's another opportunity for the usual populations to come out of the woodwork:

1) The "I think they should accept our trash" folks, and
2) The "he's not perfect enough for me... so therefor I think he sucks... but I love Branham" brigade

[baseline bum]

for vassell straight up sounds good but not if he wants the max.. he ain't a player you give the farm.

The expected 10% compounded yearly boosts in the cap from the new TV deal really change the calculus of offering long term deals IMO. Like I pointed out earlier, a five year 30% max offer for Fox even with max raises is about 24.5% of the cap in year five. For comparison's sake Devin is making 20.9% of the cap right now.

[baseline bum]

Yeah, I'm talking about future seasons too. I think we can afford for one of Castle, Vassell or Sochan to be absolutely zeros in the future and still not have it result in us being a high lotto team so long as Wemby is healthy. I agree with you, it's time for us to stop thinking that the draft is going to be our pathway to finish building out the team.

I love this thread because it's another opportunity for the usual populations to come out of the woodwork:

1) The "I think they should accept our trash" folks, and
2) The "he's not perfect enough for me... so therefor I think he sucks... but I love Branham" brigade

To be fair if Fox tells them he's gone that could be pretty realistic, being another Kawhi situation. It's usually what happens when a star with a year left on his deal wants out.

[scott]

To be fair if Fox tells them he's gone that could be pretty realistic, being another Kawhi situation. It's usually what happens when a star with a year left on his deal wants out.

tbh, Spurs the only team who's really gotten screwed this way. PHI still got a decent return for Harden (3 FRP), POR still got a nice return for Dame (effectively 3 FRP after they flipped Jrue), etc.

[WaywardTexan]

I assume they are faxing the paperwork to the league office as we speak now.

[CGD]

tbh, Spurs the only team who's really gotten screwed this way. PHI still got a decent return for Harden (3 FRP), POR still got a nice return for Dame (effectively 3 FRP after they flipped Jrue), etc.

In fairness the injury was a major headwind and leverage point against the spurs

[TXstbobcat]

Honestly, do you think Fox and Castle will co-exist, let alone CP3 for this season?

CP3 will probably ask to be traded to a serious playoff contender before the trade deadline.

[scott]

In fairness the injury was a major headwind and leverage point against the spurs

Yeah, not trying to knock the Spurs... just saying that the "they have to accept our trash because the player has demanded a trade" has never really played out as dramatically as people want to hope for

[CGD]

CP3 will probably ask to be traded to a serious playoff contender before the trade deadline.

Not so sure many teams would want him tbh (unless he’s waived). Too much of a defensive liability and simply can’t create separation on offense with regularity at this age. There was a reason he “choose” the Spurs.

[tbdog]

Honestly Vassell fits the team better. We need shooters. Just don't like fitting Fox in and losing Vassell. I don't think the Spurs will go hard in for Fox. They'll be patient, and Castle has shown promise as a lead guard.

I prefer Garland and Tre over Fox tbh, even though Fox might be better, maybe? Probably not.

[baseline bum]

tbh, Spurs the only team who's really gotten screwed this way. PHI still got a decent return for Harden (3 FRP), POR still got a nice return for Dame (effectively 3 FRP after they flipped Jrue), etc.

Philly got two picks and a swap: an unprotected 2028 Clippers, a protected 2026 OKC, and a 2029 unprotected Clippers pick swap. The only good pick Portland got out of the Milwaukee deal was the 2028 Bucks; the other two were the 14th pick in a weak 2024 draft and Boston's 2029, which they shipped out with Brogdon for Deni Avdija. IDK, Avdija, Ayton, a pick, and two swaps isn't a huge return IMO. Though they are definitely better than what the Spurs got.

[100%duncan]

Usual suspects against a top 20 player :lol

[stnick2261]

Not specifically for Fox, but should a good trade target present itself, I'd like the see us trade "the lesser of Spurs/Hawks pick" in '25 and/or '27.... or top4 protected pick (or swap) where it turns into that year's 2nd round if not conveyed (basically pick 5-34) similarly to how our Celtic swap is structured.

[CorrectCrusader]

I think one tab builds a projection based on the last two seasons whereas the tab you are looking at is this season (which is probably the right one to look at).

One of these days I'll just need to suck it up and get a subscription, but I've been liking CraftedNBA's free tools.

I see, thank you.

[RC_Drunkford]

Fox would be a nice addition as would Markkanen. I'm good with either, but would obviously try to keep Sochan, Castle and Vassell around while making the addition.

[tbdog]

Fox would be a nice addition as would Markkanen. I'm good with either, but would obviously try to keep Sochan, Castle and Vassell around while making the addition.

That's the thing. Eventually you need to pay Castle and Sochan their dues.

[Mr. Body]

Usual suspects against a top 20 player :lol

What top 20 player we talking about here

[LeBowen]

That's the thing. Eventually you need to pay Castle and Sochan their dues.

Dues as in extensions?
Castle's extension won't kick in before 2028, while Jeremy has been playing well, I doubt he's offered more than 20ish a year, no way he gets the Vasell contract. And the cap will keep rising.

We can get Fox and keep Devin, but we'd still be weak at the wings and it would be a questionable fit with Castle who would either be benched long-term or he'd be forced to be a 6'5 SF.

I don't see a way of getting Fox without Devin going the other way, not because of assets because we have plenty of picks, but because it doesn't make sense roster wise.
No way Fox gets traded before the summer, Devin has the rest of the season to prove that he can be a consistent contributor and stay healthy.

[rankingtear]

Smells like Klutch shenanigans again it was the same last year with Trae.

[Bruno]

To me, it's Fox or Castle. If Spurs trade for Fox, it will cost them Castle and 2 or 3 first round picks.

At the end, the deciding factor is how good Spurs think Castle will be in 3 years. If they think he can become an all-star, going after Fox doesn't make a lot of sense.

There is also the 2025 draft with some very intriguing PG prospect that might slide to Spurs/Hawks/Bulls pick.

[Death In June]

Id be okay with the Chi and Spurs ‘25 picks and the Spurs ‘27 (or Atlanta 27 if they had to) plus filler. Castle can play the Manu role and facilitate the second unit and occasionally start at SG.

[R. DeMurre]

Fox wouldn't be my first pick, but then I think of a team like the Celtics and the multiple PGs they experimented with before finally hitting on a championship back court, so i can kind of see the thinking as a step forward... but Fox really seems to go against what the Spurs have been eyeing in terms of PG profiles in the last half decade, which seems to feature a fascination with size. And my biggest fear for the Spurs going forward is a philosophy that says we have Wemby so we don't have to worry too much about the defensive impactfulness of a couple of other starters. Fox would obviously take a bunch of pressure off of Victor on the offensive end, but overall he's an average efficiency guy, and a completely average three point shooter in addition to be unimpactful on D.

[LeBowen]

Fox really seems to go against what the Spurs have been eyeing in terms of PG profiles in the last half decade, which seems to feature a fascination with size.

Even though he's listed at 6'3, Fox is clearly taller than Curry for example. And he's got a 6'6.5 wingspan.


And my biggest fear for the Spurs going forward is a philosophy that says we have Wemby so we don't have to worry too much about the defensive impactfulness of a couple of other starters. Fox would obviously take a bunch of pressure off of Victor on the offensive end, but overall he's an average efficiency guy, and a completely average three point shooter in addition to be unimpactful on D.

He's a solid enough defender, not a negative on that end. You have to keep in mind that it's really difficult to play defense with non-existant rim protection. Some users in here were concerned about Barnes' defense, said he's washed and gets torched easily, but he's been fine because it's way easier to play with Wemby. Same would happen with Fox.

Our biggest issue right now is lack of self-creation from the perimeter, we don't have a single player who can reliably get to the rim and finish. Fox is one of the best in the league at it. With Wemby's current playstyle, he'd be unstoppable.
He's at 62% in the paint while playing with Sabonis and DDR, get him some actual spacing and he'd be able to replicate Tony's seasons when he led the league in FG% at the rim.

3pt is somewhat of a concern, but mostly because of the quality of shots he takes.

Fox/Champ/Barnes/Wemby with one of Castle or Sochan would be a fine lineup if we talk spacing. We can't really play Castle and Jeremy together even if we get Curry until one of them develops a reliable shot.
Then we'd look to upgrade wings.

Looking around the league there are very few all-stars that could be available in 2025 or 2026, fit the roster, timeline and cap situation. Not to mention that the asking price would be ridiculous if someone like let's say Edwards asks out in 2026 or whatever.

It just comes down to PATFO's wishes. Wemby is already way too good for us to get lottery picks and at that point I'd rather have a competitive team than treadmill for the rest of Wemby's rookie contract.

[SpursBills]

If Castle is truly what he's billed to be (bigger Suggs/Jrue with better passing), I'd readily sacrifice Vassell before Castle. The big issue with this team on offense when looking in the future to the playoffs in a couple years is really a lack of advantage creation, especially against a set defense. If you have enough guys who can dribble pass shoot at all five positions, you can probably pass your way to a good shot ala the Celtics. But that really requires a high level of skill at all five positions, and then you're probably sacrificing something on the defensive end. You can find two guys to take the place of Sochan and Champagnie who shoot much better and can attack closeouts and pass well, but then are those guys going to be able to defend and rebound as well to make up for it? As LeBowen has said, you're leaving yourself very vulnerable to apex wings who rule the playoffs.

Neither Vassell or Castle project to be true advantage creators who can attack a set defense and force rotations - I think Castle's going to be awesome but that's not really his game, and Vassell even at his best doesn't have the size and athleticism to scramble a set defense. Of the two, it's probably easier to build a team that makes sense with Castle - get yourself a tall wing shooter (LeBowen has brought up Lauri, MPJ, Cam Johnson all of whom are good options) and you've got a team that makes sense - 1 attacking guard, 1 secondary playmaker, 2 high volume supersized wing shooters, and a mobile center on offense, and 2 excellent perimeter defenders with size and switchability flanking a GOAT level rim protector on defense.

If you keep Vassell, you're really looking for a similarly tall wing but who has secondary playmaking and excellent defense who's at least an "ok" shooter. Almost diet Jayson Tatum, Franz Wagner, maybe Jalen Johnson type guy, which I think is much harder to find.

[k830713]

Ingram 40mln > FoX 50 mln

[Raven]

i don't see the point now

[CGD]

To me, it's Fox or Castle. If Spurs trade for Fox, it will cost them Castle and 2 or 3 first round picks.

At the end, the deciding factor is how good Spurs think Castle will be in 3 years. If they think he can become an all-star, going after Fox doesn't make a lot of sense.

There is also the 2025 draft with some very intriguing PG prospect that might slide to Spurs/Hawks/Bulls pick.

This is probably right. I like the idea of Fox on the Spurs but not at the max he’ll command.

Speaking of 25 pg draft prospects, has Trore been better after a choppy start?

[PICK-N-ROLL]

What will Wemby’s next contract look like? Will it be the supermax? Obviously right now we are in a great position with Wemby’s rookie contract. But adding Fox to a max deal will cost us players and the Spurs will avoid that second apron anyway they can

[scott]

What will Wemby’s next contract look like? Will it be the supermax? Obviously right now we are in a great position with Wemby’s rookie contract. But adding Fox to a max deal will cost us players and the Spurs will avoid that second apron anyway they can

At this point, the only way Wemby doesn't land a Rookie Supermax (30% of the cap) will be if he is hurt, because he's pretty much a shoe-in for All-NBA here on out, in addition to being the heavy favorite for DPOY for the rest of his career.

Fox on a max deal won't cost us players by virtue of his max deal, anymore than any other max player would. At some point, people need to become accustomed to the idea that the Spurs are eventually going to need a roster with another Max-Player next to Wemby, and that is going to be roughly 55-60% of the cap when it happens. This isn't really something to be too concerned over though and is easily manageable. It's when teams start having to juggle two vet Supermax deals plus other big contracts (like the Celtics) or 3 max deals (like the Suns) that things get tricky.

[twodeep]

adding fuel to the fire according to realgm wiretap the title says it all

Rich Paul Meets With Kings As De'Aaron Fox's Future Comes Into Question

[Bruno]

Speaking of 25 pg draft prospects, has Trore been better after a choppy start?

He hasn't. He has been moved to the bench and has still struggled. To his credit, his last game was good.

To me, the main issue with Traoré right now is that he has played non-stop this year with various teams. He is exhausted both physically and mentally.

[baseline bum]

He hasn't. He has been moved to the bench and has still struggled. To his credit, his last game was good.

To me, the main issue with Traoré right now is that he has played non-stop this year with various teams. He is exhausted both physically and mentally.

So still worth taking a swing on with a late lottery pick?

[DAF86]

Usual suspects against a top 20 player :lol

Why would you expect anything other than consistency on this case? If we don't want Trae Young, it's only logical we don't want Fox either.

The Spurs are in a position to build an almost perfect team alongside Wemby, why ruin that by rushing things to get extremely flawed, extremely bad defensive players?

[LeBowen]

So still worth taking a swing on with a late lottery pick?

I'd honestly go in full meltdown mode if we take a swing on another non-shooting guard in a draft full of wing prospects.
If we're to win next season we can't afford to develop another point guard who's two years away from being two years away.

[scott]

Why would you expect anything other than consistency on this case? If we don't want Trae Young, it's only logical we don't want Fox either.

The Spurs are in a position to build an almost perfect team alongside Wemby, why ruin that by rushing things to get extremely flawed, extremely bad defensive players?

We're lumping Fox into this category now? :lol

[DAF86]

We're lumping Fox into this category now? :lol

In which World is Fox not a bad defensive player? :lol

[LeBowen]

In which World is Fox not a bad defensive player? :lol

https://i.imgur.com/Mu6wLZS.png

Guards under 200lbs, did it so I can keep the likes of Lamelo and Haliburton on the list while removing bigger guards like Edwards.

[Bruno]

So still worth taking a swing on with a late lottery pick?

Yes, he is but not for Spurs.

I think Castle is the real deal and will be Spurs' starting PG for the next decade.

[DAF86]

https://i.imgur.com/Mu6wLZS.png

Guards under 200lbs, did it so I can keep the likes of Lamelo and Haliburton on the list while removing bigger guards like Edwards.

Why would you do that, though? The problem is exactly that he's under 200lbs. I don't care if he's good for an under 200lbs guard, he's bad overall. What's the point of Spurs targetting big guards to be their PGs, if they then go and trade for someone like Fox?

He's also a below average 3pt shooter. Why would anyone want to give up multiple assets for a bad 3 pt shooting guard that's gonna get targeted in playoffs ball? I don't understand spursfans obsession with putting a handicap on the team's ceiling so early into the process, tbh.

[objective]

The most recent Locked On Kings podcast titled something like "Is this the beginning of the end for the Fox era?" ... is somewhat entertaining if you like to hear morose podcast hosts compare their team to an elderly sick animal that's been separated from the herd and singled out by the predators of the league.

I'm as lukewarm on Fox as I was for Markannen but I do recognize the diminishing value of the Hawks picks. I guess if the Spurs could dump Zollins in the deal I'd be in.

And I do think a mid season trade is possible .... Kings pick is protected top 12 in 25 and top 10 in 26 before it converts to 2nds. Dumping Fox now would guarantee keeping their picks if they reboot things.

[LeBowen]

Why would you do that, though?

Are you really that dense? I literally wrote why. I wanted to compare him to other point guards while removing bigger guards like Edwards. Guard who aren't able to run an offense, like we're seeing right now with Minnesota.


I don't care if he's good for an under 200lbs guard, he's bad overall.

No, he's not. He's average. Much like Barnes looked bad last season because Sabonis is one of the worst rim protectors in the league and he's been solid for us.


What's the point of Spurs targetting big guards to be their PGs, if they then go and trade for someone like Fox?

That entire assumption is based on Spurs not wanting Trae and Dillingham, two smallest players in the league. Fox has above average size for a point guard if we take his wingspan into account.


He's also a below average 3pt shooter.

If he was a 40% 3pt shooter, we'd be talking about a ridiculous asking price.


Why would anyone want to give up multiple assets for a bad 3 pt shooting guard that's gonna get targeted in playoffs ball?

34% isn't bad, it's below average, as you said.
Why would he get targeted? Are you serious? These takes are honestly why I hate this forum sometimes. 3pt shooting concerns are valid, max contract concerns are also valid, but you can't fucking say he'd be targeted in the playoffs.
You just decided you don't like a player and are talking nonsense which can easily be disproved.


I don't understand spursfans obsession with putting a handicap on the team's ceiling so early into the process, tbh.

You know what's putting handicap on us? Not having a single reliable paint penetrator which makes our offense really easy to stop for good teams.
Every single top team in the league except OKC has a guard that's smaller than Fox in their starting lineup. And OKC is playing with no wings in their starting lineup.

Fox is one of the few all-star players that fit a lot of our needs including age, availability and asking price.
If we're talking legit starters, not even all-star players, very few realistic targets would fit us.

[DAF86]

Are you really that dense? I literally wrote why. I wanted to compare him to other point guards while removing bigger guards like Edwards. Guard who aren't able to run an offense, like we're seeing right now with Minnesota.



No, he's not. He's average. Much like Barnes looked bad last season because Sabonis is one of the worst rim protectors in the league and he's been solid for us.



That entire assumption is based on Spurs not wanting Trae and Dillingham, two smallest players in the league. Fox has above average size for a point guard if we take his wingspan into account.



If he was a 40% 3pt shooter, we'd be talking about a ridiculous asking price.



34% isn't bad, it's below average, as you said.
Why would he get targeted? Are you serious? These takes are honestly why I hate this forum sometimes. 3pt shooting concerns are valid, max contract concerns are also valid, but you can't fucking say he'd be targeted in the playoffs.
You just decided you don't like a player and are talking nonsense which can easily be disproved.



You know what's putting handicap on us? Not having a single reliable paint penetrator which makes our offense really easy to stop for good teams.
Every single top team in the league except OKC has a guard that's smaller than Fox in their starting lineup. And OKC is playing with no wings in their starting lineup.

Fox is one of the few all-star players that fit a lot of our needs including age, availability and asking price.
If we're talking legit starters, not even all-star players, very few realistic targets would fit us.

Every under 200 lbs, 6' 3" guard gets targeted during the playoffs in today's NBA. You need to be prime Curry to overcome it.

If all you care about is raising the floor and securing a playoffs spot as soon as possible, then sure, by all means trade away assets for a tier 3 player like Fox. If you are actually serious about building a real contender for years to come without many major glaring weaknesses, then you are better off being patient and waiting for better opportunities to present themselves.

[scott]

In which World is Fox not a bad defensive player? :lol

In which world is he one? This season, he ranks 50th percentile in Def EPM and 59th percentile in CraftedDPM. You're lumping him in with Trae Young, who is 5th and 2nd percentile in those categories.

But go on, share more of your wisdom with us.

[DAF86]

In which world is he one? This season, he ranks 50th percentile in Def EPM and 59th percentile in CraftedDPM. You're lumping him in with Trae Young, who is 5th and 2nd percentile in those categories.

But go on, share more of your wisdom with us.

No need, just read the comment above this, tbh.

[scott]

I love this thread because it's another opportunity for the usual populations to come out of the woodwork:

1) The "I think they should accept our trash" folks, and
2) The "he's not perfect enough for me... so therefor I think he sucks... but I love Branham" brigade
DAF86 has chosen a squad.

[LeBowen]

Every under 200 lbs, 6' 3" guard gets targeted during the playoffs in today's NBA. You need to be prime Curry to overcome it.

And yet every team has one. Because it's an offense oriented league and there's only so much you can do without triple threat creators.
Right now we have none of those.
Would I prefer we draft 6'7 Manu? Obviously, but odds of that are very low.


If all you care about is raising the floor and securing a playoffs spot as soon as possible, then sure, by all means trade away assets for a tier 3 player like Fox.

He's not a tier 3 player and the entire point of trading for him would be getting more than we gave up since he'll be on an expiring contract.


If you are actually serious about building a real contender for years to come without many major glaring weaknesses, then you are better off being patient and waiting for better opportunities to present themselves.

As I said, I'd also prefer the next great point forward, but looking around the league there's almost no chance we get one of those unless we strike gold in the draft.

[DAF86]

DAF86 has chosen a squad.[/COLOR]

Not really. I was one of the biggest instigators of the Spurs being agressive for Markkannen.

I just have a clear picture of what type of players I prefer to surround Vic with.

[scott]

Not really. I was one of the biggest instigators of the Spurs being agressive for Markkannen.

I just have a clear picture of what type of players I prefer to surround Vic with.

Then you can simply state that, instead of making provably false, asinine statements like "Fox is an extremely bad defender"

[SpursGenius]

Dev, Atl 26 swap and Kings 31 pick. Seem like a start point .
lol. Do you work for sacto? No that will not happen. More like Keldon Collins tre. Throw in charlotte pick. And two second rounders.

[DAF86]

And yet every team has one. Because it's an offense oriented league and there's only so much you can do without triple threat creators.
Right now we have none of those.
Would I prefer we draft 6'7 Manu? Obviously, but odds of that are very low.

And yet every team that has won it recently (Bucks, Nuggets, Celtics) or has a chance of winning it in the near future (Celtics, OKC) has none of it. That's exactly my point.




He's not a tier 3 player and the entire point of trading for him would be getting more than we gave up since he'll be on an expiring contract.

What tier do you think he is?


As I said, I'd also prefer the next great point forward, but looking around the league there's almost no chance we get one of those unless we strike gold in the draft.

For now, I would prefer to be patient and see if we strike gold in the draft, or see if Castle develops to that level. We will always have time to make win now trades. No reason to be impatient and doing a move we might regret for the next 5 years, tbh.

[slick'81]

Getting big man some help:clap

[LeBowen]

Not really. I was one of the biggest instigators of the Spurs being agressive for Markkannen.

I just have a clear picture of what type of players I prefer to surround Vic with.

I'd also prefer Castle and Devin becoming Jrue and Middleton 2.0 within a year, but it doesn't look like it's going to go that quickly.

I'm a believer that you should always adapt to the situation and if there's a bargain to be had (Devin and 2 picks for Fox would be a bargain) you do it. Noone would trade 5 picks for Fox.
Devin is in his 5th season, has good size and is a turnstile on defense. Not only physically, but he looks like he's getting dumber with each passing year. Leaving his man to help Wemby in the paint and giving up open 3pts over and over again is just low IQ basketball. Kind of how we thought Keldon just needs to put it together but he peaked in his third season.
I'm not saying Devin won't improve, but we're still one of the worst teams in the league without Wemby and there's a reason for it. Our players just aren't very good. Replacing Devin with Fox wouldn't result in worse team defense.

Roster building is a very difficult thing in modern NBA. For every team that blows their load early, there's a team that waits too long and misses their window.
Wemby is already a top10 player, if not top5 and we should be maximizing his rookie contract by competing from the next season.


And yet every team that has won it recently (Bucks, Nuggets, Celtics) or has a chance of winning it in the near future (Celtics, OKC) has none of it. That's exactly my point.

Murray is a horrible defender, Jokic is subpar and yet they won because it's all about offense. Mavs just got out of the West with two turnstiles in starting lineup, beat TWolves that had a 37 year old 6'0 point guard.


What tier do you think he is?

I think he's a solid all-star tier, perfect second option.

[DAF86]

Then you can simply state that, instead of making provably false, asinine statements like "Fox is an extremely bad defender"

Fox is a below average defender and a below average 3pt shooter. I'd rather not give away assets to get such a player.

There, is that better?

[KobesAchilles]

Anyone not wanting Fox bc of bad defense is insane. Jrue Holiday, Ron Harper, and Chauncey Billups are the only great point guard defenders to win a title in the last 40 years. Seriously go season by season and see how many shitty defensive point guards have won the title. It’s an insane list. Also having a 7ft 5 Frenchman who gets 10 blocks in a game can maybe just maybe help out Fox on that end.

Fox automatically brings in a solution to our problem of nobody can drive into the lane at a consistent basis. Him not being a solid 3 point shooter isn’t even a good point. Nobody brings any context anymore. Is Fox getting open looks at the 3 point line or is he creating for himself? Bc he shoots good when he is open but when he creates for himself his percentage drops by a lot. Fox and Wemby would be an unstoppable pick n roll game.

Shooting is easily draftable. We have good shooters. It is a lot easier to draft a Vassell than it is a Fox. You aren’t going to find that elite speed, finishing ability, and talent anywhere in the teens which is where we are drafting.

[DAF86]

I'd also prefer Castle and Devin becoming Jrue and Middleton 2.0 within a year, but it doesn't look like it's going to go that quickly.

I'm a believer that you should always adapt to the situation and if there's a bargain to be had (Devin and 2 picks for Fox would be a bargain) you do it. Noone would trade 5 picks for Fox.
Devin is in his 5th season, has good size and is a turnstile on defense. Not only physically, but he looks like he's getting dumber with each passing year. Leaving his man to help Wemby in the paint and giving up open 3pts over and over again is just low IQ basketball. Kind of how we thought Keldon just needs to put it together but he peaked in his third season.
I'm not saying Devin won't improve, but we're still one of the worst teams in the league without Wemby and there's a reason for it. Our players just aren't very good. Replacing Devin with Fox wouldn't result in worse team defense.

Roster building is a very difficult thing in modern NBA. For every team that blows their load early, there's a team that waits too long and misses their window.
Wemby is already a top10 player, if not top5 and we should be maximizing his rookie contract by competing from the next season.

I would rather wait all season and see how Devin does, before trading him for Fox. Devin might not be what this team needs to win a championship, I know Fox isn't.

[scott]

Fox is a below average defender and a below average 3pt shooter. I'd rather not give away assets to get such a player.

There, is that better?

He's the epitome of an average defender.

[SpursGenius]

Yeah I was more pointing to the seasons after this one. Castle needs to make a leap by next year. None of that year 3 crap. He has shown enough promise so far this season to expect that out of him besides being the 4th pick in the draft. If he is not a top 2 or top 3 player on next year’s roster, then he’s a bust and we should then be expecting a high pick out of our natural one for years to come.

but that isn’t the likely trajectory of the team right now. We’ve been floating at .500 so far and we’re likely to end the season around 40 wins. If that happens, next year’s win total won’t be less (a big part of it will be because of Castle). We’re not going to have a losing season again.


castle needs to be in starting lineup again. Put Barnes on the bench

[DAF86]

He's the epitome of an average defender.

Maybe for a PG, he isn't average overall. Much less in a playoffs environment, where teams relentlessly attack the weakest link time after time.

[LeBowen]

I would rather wait all season and see how Devin does, before trading him for Fox. Devin might not be what this team needs to win a championship, I know Fox isn't.

I don't think Fox is getting traded before the summer and I also said many times Devin needs to play the season as a starter so we know what we're dealing with, but I'm slowly starting to believe he's not a long term piece because much like undersized point guards, shooting guards who can't actually run and offense and/or aren't very good defenders are getting phased out of playoff teams unless they can easily score 30 on any given night. Devin doesn't do any of those things right now.

We can talk about Fox's flaws, but he's one of the best paint penetrators in the league and there would be no answer for him paired with Wemby, that's why he intrigues me.
And since you mentioned Boston, they made it work with two guards who were considered to be subpar shooters. My idea with Fox would be that he and Castle start together, with two high volume wing shooters next to them.

[scott]

Maybe for a PG, he isn't average overall. Much less in a playoffs environment, where teams relentlessly attack the weakest link time after time.

The percentiles I posted were not positional. He's a 50th percentile in D-EPM amongst every player in the league. The living, breathing manifestation of "median"

His lone playoff experience, matched up against one of the greatest PGs of all time, he played 38 minutes per game and took the Warriors to 7 games. (He also had a league playoff leading 2.1 steals/gm in that series and posted a 112 DRtg, and a +1.0 DBPM)

[scott]

SpursBills laid things out perfectly for anyone who wants to take the time to go beyond their boneheaded preconceived notions of what Fox while obviously never spent anytime watching him or digging into the analytics.

Fox is an average shooter (53rd percentile in CraftedNBA ShootingQuality Index), and an average defender. If you pair him next to Castle, you'll absolutely need to pair up with sharpshooting wings. Champ and Barnes aren't bad in the short-run, but you'd want to upgrade that eventually.

Fox excels at creation, penetration and getting to the line. While he's an average on-ball defender, he is a disruptor on the defensive end, rating 94th percentile in deflections and is an above average TO creator.

In regard to his shooting, he's about as efficient from Wemby from 3, but his 3PAr% is only 31%, compared to 49% for Wemby this season. It would be an interesting PnR pairing because Wemby likes to Pop as much as he likes to roll, and Fox is a masterful penetrator. It would be deadly. If Fox could hone his lob skills, it would be even deadlier.

[scott]

lol. Do you work for sacto? No that will not happen. More like Keldon Collins tre. Throw in charlotte pick. And two second rounders.


I love this thread because it's another opportunity for the usual populations to come out of the woodwork:

1) The "I think they should accept our trash" folks, and
2) The "he's not perfect enough for me... so therefor I think he sucks... but I love Branham" brigade

SpursGenius has chosen a squad.

[DAF86]

SpursGenius has chosen a squad. [/COLOR][/COLOR]

Dude, not everyone that doesn't agree with you regarding Fox is OK with our "trash" or loves Branham, tbh. :lol That's a very MavKrew member way of arguing, tbh. Just flat out lying about what the other person is saying, just because they don't agree with you. :lol

If my memory serves me right, you were also in the "let's trade for Trae Young" camp, and most have come to terms with the fact that not trading for Young was the right move. You seem a little too impatient for my liking. I'm all for being agressive with moves, but for better fits than Fox, tbh.

[LeBowen]

I'm all for being agressive with moves, but for better fits than Fox, tbh.

Which better fits? As in I can understand arguments for not wanting Fox, but people are way too optimistic about potential trade targets.
If we're talking legit starters or better, these are the names that could be obtainable this or the next summer and would be realistic targets for us:
MPJ, Booker, Fox, Herb, Cam Johnson...and that's about it if we're talking players I personally would like to acquire and think will be available.

Other than that we can just try and scavange around. Whether it be finding disregarded players with potential like we did with Champagnie and Bassey or getting underrated players for cheap like Celtics did with Derrick and Porzingis.
But it doesn't look like many of those will be available.
We can also wait for someone like Edwards to become available, but the asking price would be way too much and it would require a complete roster overhaul.

I asked this same question when we didn't get Markkanen and I kept saying it's slim pickings around the league...well now it's even worse.
We can just hope Castle accelerates his development and we get a legit wing in the draft.

I'd say that the most likely scenario will be combining those two picks and trading up to get the player we want.

[DAF86]

Which better fits? As in I can understand arguments for not wanting Fox, but people are way too optimistic about potential trade targets.
If we're talking legit starters or better, these are the names that could be obtainable this or the next summer and would be realistic targets for us:
MPJ, Booker, Fox, Herb, Cam Johnson...and that's about it if we're talking players I personally would like to acquire and think will be available.

Other than that we can just try and scavange around. Whether it be finding disregarded players with potential like we did with Champagnie and Bassey or getting underrated players for cheap like Celtics did with Derrick and Porzingis.
But it doesn't look like many of those will be available.
We can also wait for someone like Edwards to become available, but the asking price would be way too much and it would require a complete roster overhaul.

I asked this same question when we didn't get Markkanen and I kept saying it's slim pickings around the league...well now it's even worse.
We can just hope Castle accelerates his development and we get a legit wing in the draft.

I'd say that the most likely scenario will be combining those two picks and trading up to get the player we want.

It's useless to try and predict which players will be available 6 months, a year from now. Just a week ago there was some serious buzz about Giannis getting traded, it wouldn't surprise me if in the offseason the rumours re-open, after another predictable Bucks elimination in the playoffs.

The Spurs are in prime position to be patient and wait for these type of players to be avaible. There's no need to go out of your way to trade multiple picks and give up a max slot for third tier players like Fox, tbh.

[LeBowen]

It's useless to try and predict which players will be available 6 months, a year from now. Just a week ago there was some serious buzz about Giannis getting traded, it wouldn't surprise me if in the offseason the rumours re-open, after another predictable Bucks elimination in the playoffs.

I said realistic targets, not trading the entire roster minus Wemby for a 31 year old Giannis.
And as someone who follows stuff around the league I don't buy the "it's pointless to predict" take. You can go back to similar discussions this summer and I said that Fox is the point guard to look out for because Kings are treadmilling and he's got only two years left on his deal. It's fairly easy to predict which players will be available for a fair price if you take contract duration into the account.


There's no need to go out of your way to trade multiple picks and give up a max slot for third tier players like Fox, tbh.

People said the same about Hawks picks that are worth gold when I said I have no issues trading those for Markkanen and here we are.

[100%duncan]

Those Hawks picks are by the day and month looking more and more like a mid 1st round pick and yet here we all still are treating it like a lotto pick. So the draft is out of the question.



Until proven otherwise, marquee FAs choosing SA over big markets is still a myth to me. So FA market is not an option.



Someone said here before, I think in the Markannen thread, that we should think of Wemby as having multiple phases. You don’t necessarily build and look forward for 1 window only and that’s it. You try to win in different windows like what happened with Tim in his 1st ring, 2nd-3rd rings (a more balanced team around him with young dudes and vets), 4th ring where he was still the best player in the team but had off nights here and there, 5th ring (beautiful game), etc etc. Ofc not exactly this, but this archetype. Obviously the counterarguments to this are either 1. Blowing your load too early and hemorraghing your future or 2. Not striking when the iron is hot/Wemby gets hurt chronically and we’re uber fucked.

I get that people want the perfect types of players to trade for but in reality, who are those players? At some point, you have to make a move, especially when you have such a generational talent.

[exstatic]

Those Hawks picks are by the day and month looking more and more like a mid 1st round pick and yet here we all still are treating it like a lotto pick. So the draft is out of the question.



Until proven otherwise, marquee FAs choosing SA over big markets is still a myth to me. So FA market is not an option.



Someone said here before, I think in the Markannen thread, that we should think of Wemby as having multiple phases. You don’t necessarily build and look forward for 1 window only and that’s it. You try to win in different windows like what happened with Tim in his 1st ring, 2nd-3rd rings (a more balanced team around him with young dudes and vets), 4th ring where he was still the best player in the team but had off nights here and there, 5th ring (beautiful game), etc etc. Ofc not exactly this, but this archetype. Obviously the counterarguments to this are either 1. Blowing your load too early and hemorraghing your future or 2. Not striking when the iron is hot/Wemby gets hurt chronically and we’re uber fucked.

I get that people want the perfect types of players to trade for but in reality, who are those players? At some point, you have to make a move, especially when you have such a generational talent.

Another loss or two, and the ATL pick drops to #10. There’s a big gap between the shitty EC teams at the end of the playoff picture, and the EC teams in the lottery. There’s a big bunch of mid WC teams there in between at the end of the lottery that have way better records. ‘By the day’, it looks better for us. ATL is on a spiral, having lost 3 in a row. They have Minny next.

[scott]

Dude, not everyone that doesn't agree with you regarding Fox is OK with our "trash" or loves Branham, tbh. :lol That's a very MavKrew member way of arguing, tbh. Just flat out lying about what the other person is saying, just because they don't agree with you. :lol

If my memory serves me right, you were also in the "let's trade for Trae Young" camp, and most have come to terms with the fact that not trading for Young was the right move. You seem a little too impatient for my liking. I'm all for being agressive with moves, but for better fits than Fox, tbh.

The side SpursGenius chose was thinking that SAC should accept our trash for Fox. That's what his proposal is, and it's not realistic. This isn't that hard to understand (but apparently it is for you).

And maybe you should check your memory, because I was never in the pro-Young camp. I was in the "Young will cost more than people want to pay" camp and then eventually in the "I don't want Trae at the cost" camp. Similarly, I'm not even in the Fox camp (which I'll be posting momentarily) - I just think it's hilarious that every time any good player comes up, most people ultimately fall into these camps, neither of which are helpful to the true analysis of whether a move it worth it.

Pretending like we can get Fox for our trash and some SRPs isn't helpful to the discussion, because that's not what the price would be. A more appropriate statement for this camp would be "I personally wouldn't give up more than Keldon, Collins and a SRP" which is the same as saying "I just don't want Fox" - which is fine.

Likewise, just saying false statements like "Fox is an extremely bad defender" isn't helpful to the conversation because it simply isn't true.

Ultimately, as I'll post in a moment, I actually agree with you that I don't think Fox is the guy I'd go after, certainly not during the season, because there are some other questions I still want answered.

[scott]

Someone said here before, I think in the Markannen thread, that we should think of Wemby as having multiple phases. You don’t necessarily build and look forward for 1 window only and that’s it. You try to win in different windows like what happened with Tim in his 1st ring, 2nd-3rd rings (a more balanced team around him with young dudes and vets), 4th ring where he was still the best player in the team but had off nights here and there, 5th ring (beautiful game), etc etc. Ofc not exactly this, but this archetype. Obviously the counterarguments to this are either 1. Blowing your load too early and hemorraghing your future or 2. Not striking when the iron is hot/Wemby gets hurt chronically and we’re uber fucked.

I get that people want the perfect types of players to trade for but in reality, who are those players? At some point, you have to make a move, especially when you have such a generational talent.

That was me about the Phases. Duncan had championship stages to his career: The Twin Towers Era, the Big 3 Era, and the Beautiful Game Era. Yes, a lot of those players crossed over into multiple windows, but those were all teams built totally differently around Tim.

This is an arguement for not being overly concerned with perfectly aligning with Wemby's "Timeline" but I think it's also a good argument for why you don't want to go overboard and do something like trade for Fox and Markkanen. Those two moves would cost us A LOT, probably beyond our excess draft capital and into our own, leaving us pretty bare.

There is a nice balance to be had.

[Kevin]

lol. Do you work for sacto? No that will not happen. More like Keldon Collins tre. Throw in charlotte pick. And two second rounders.

Dev is a shot dependent player who is fairly useless if his shot isn't falling and is totally movable.

Dev and Tre plus the Kings choice at the ATL picks/swaps, tear up the 31 swap with the Kings, plus second rounders in 2025, 2028 and 2030 since they don't have second rounders in those years.

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs should absolutely try to add an All-Star caliber player while Wemby is on his rookie deal. You can worry about salary later, but while him and Castle are cheap is when you should make the addition. We definitely need some dribble penetration to really open up the offense and Fox fits that profile. He‘s also not a liability on defense.

One guy can always go to the bench, since we will need a 6th man or ideally 2-3 super subs. People need to understand that there are only a small amount of All-Star players under 30 who will become available.

Of course trading for such player always depends on the price. I‘d like to somehow keep our core together while making the addition. If I had to pick between Markkanen and Fox, I‘d pick Lauri.

[scott]

Ultimately, my tune might change on Fox in the summer, but I'm definitely out on him for a move now (not even sure he's truly available now). There are just too many questions around what we already have to make that kind of move, notably two big questions, which happen to be of extra importance relative to discussing Fox: 1) Is Devin him? and 2) What is Castle?

Fox will almost certainly cost Devin or Castle (Kings fans seem to want both, which ain't happening). The good thing about Castle is that he offers flexibility and could theoretically play very well with Fox or Devin (though the pairing with Devin is a little more theoretical as we've seen more of Castle as a ball handling SG than a lead PG). If Castle could be a true lead PG, and Devin could prove consistent and healthy, then I'm not sure I want to use assets to disrupt that pairing - I'd rather save my chips to make a move for the ideal wing archetype (Markkanen, Murphy III, Cam Johnson, Jalen Johnson, MPJ are names that all fit, IMO - not all will be available, and they all carry varying costs).

A Fox-Castle pairing is easier to envision because we've already seen Castle in this role and it's easy to understand what he brings and what needs to be developed. SpursBills laid it out in his post, and I echoed. You'll need to match these two up with sharp shooting 3&D wings. Champ and Barnes are okay for now, but you'd want to upgrade those. If Castle develops into an average shooter, you still need those types of wings because Fox is only an average shooter. But your backcourt defense is improved over having Devin in there.

A Fox-Devin pairing lets you play Sochan, who can pick up some of Devin's defensive shortcomings with his perimeter defensive skill, and Devin adds a lot more spacing versus Fox-Castle. I think this actually be one of the best pairings for Devin, honestly, because a lot of ball handling and playmaking would be taken off his plate and less reliance on him attacking the rim, and he'll be able to be more of an opportunistic slasher going towards the rim while putting his jumper to great effectiveness.

A Castle-Devin pairing, which we all assume is the default setting, carries all of the unknown variables that I'm hoping we get answers to this season. Can Devin become more consistent? Can Castle function as a lead PG for extended periods of time? I'm hoping we get some significant Castle-Devin-Champ-Barnes-Wemby lineup minutes to see how it looks. So far we've only seen 4 minutes of this lineup and 5 minutes of the lineup with Bassey in for Wemby, 4 minutes of it with Collins in for Wemby. I need to see more Castle-Dev-Champ-Barnes.

Honestly, the player who fits the least in any of these scenarios is Sochan, who I have been really been pleased with this season and am starting to like a lot, but I think his best role might be as bench glue-guy if Castle is going to a major player for us. If Castle develops into an average shooter, pairing him with Devin is Jeremy's best pathway to be a starter, because I've lost any hope Jeremy will develop into an average shooter.

It's most likely going to cost us, at a minimum, Castle or Dev, 2-3 FRPs, and their swap back. I'm not concerned about the contract - that is easy to work around, especially right now. I am more concerned about what other deals this might crowd out.

I do think we need to start moving some picks, because while "there is no rush" - the are starting to come due. I don't want to punt them for anymore 20131 picks, because those are also less valuable as trade chips. With that said, I'm not even sure we need to make a move for a bona fide "tier 1" star (whatever that means and whomever is in that category). A player of Fox's caliber (like a Markkanen) is a good fit next to Wemby, especially if Castle develops like we hope. But Fox specifically still leaves you having to fill the same holes you have now on the wings... I'd rather get a Malik Monk-type player to be my 3rd guard, and "blow my load" trying to get someone like Markkanen.

[Mal]

He would demand 50 mil, he is not worth it. Pass

[Kevin]

If the Spurs trade Dev they're getting out of 135M in long term commitments with Barnes (18M), Zollins (20M), Wes/Mal (8.5M combined) coming off the books at the end of next season. Spurs can easily afford to pay Fox 50M a season in 2027 and beyond.

[100%duncan]

Another loss or two, and the ATL pick drops to #10. There’s a big gap between the shitty EC teams at the end of the playoff picture, and the EC teams in the lottery. There’s a big bunch of mid WC teams there in between at the end of the lottery that have way better records. ‘By the day’, it looks better for us. ATL is on a spiral, having lost 3 in a row. They have Minny next.

Atlanta is the definition of mid, which is why it’s getting harder for me to be excited about the possibility of a high pick. You’re right in the sense that they can spiral anytime now, but if history is an indicator these fuckers always find a way to be a fringe playoff team.

[Kevin]

Love SpursTalk: top 30 players aren't worth 40M like Trae Young and Lauri and now top 20 players aren't worth 50M per season like Fox. Top 10 players will quickly start getting 60M per year and are therefore aren't worth it either.

[scott]

One thing that definitely needs to be dispelled, however, is the notion that Fox is anything like Trae or Dillingham. Trae Young is a tiny, no-defense (literally a multi-year 1st percentile CraftedDPM player), outside shooting PG, who does (to his benefit) do well to set up teammates. 49% of Trae's shot diet is 3s, and while he is crafty enough to get around his defender and get to the rim, he does not have the strength to drive into the paint and collapse the defense like Fox does. Fox is quite different. Only 31% of his shot diet are 3s, and he is a master of getting into the paint and scoring. And he's essentially a neutral defender who is excellent (94th percentile) at using his length to create deflections. They are completely different archetypes.

[100%duncan]

That was me about the Phases. Duncan had championship stages to his career: The Twin Towers Era, the Big 3 Era, and the Beautiful Game Era. Yes, a lot of those players crossed over into multiple windows, but those were all teams built totally differently around Tim.

This is an arguement for not being overly concerned with perfectly aligning with Wemby's "Timeline" but I think it's also a good argument for why you don't want to go overboard and do something like trade for Fox and Markkanen. Those two moves would cost us A LOT, probably beyond our excess draft capital and into our own, leaving us pretty bare.

There is a nice balance to be had.

That was a good point you made in that thread. On the draft capital, if the pick isn’t high anyway, Im not gonna lose too much sleep on another Wesley or Branham. At some point, BWright has to shoot a shot whether he likes it or not.

[scott]

Love SpursTalk: top 30 players aren't worth 40M like Trae Young and Lauri and now top 20 players aren't worth 50M per season like Fox. Top 10 players will quickly start getting 60M per year and are therefore aren't worth it either.

Shai could come available and SpursTalk would offer up Keldon, Collins and the CHA pick but only if Shai agreed to only $35MM/season.

[100%duncan]

Since we’re in the topic, I would LOVE for DBook to be Wemby’s 2nd banana. He’s grown into me in the olympics after hating on him for years. But that aint happening so we have to settle for less.

[scott]

That was a good point you made in that thread. On the draft capital, if the pick isn’t high anyway, Im not gonna lose too much sleep on another Wesley or Branham. At some point, BWright has to shoot a shot whether he likes it or not.

Yeah but at some point we'll need those late FRPs to add talent to the roster on the cheap. Of course, we still need to do a good job on those picks, but you're hoping you can get useful rotation players who won't cost a lot. Otherwise, you're picking up bargain bin min-contract vets like Phoenix, which is a struggle.

[100%duncan]

Yeah but at some point we'll need those late FRPs to add talent to the roster on the cheap. Of course, we still need to do a good job on those picks, but you're hoping you can get useful rotation players who won't cost a lot. Otherwise, you're picking up bargain bin min-contract vets like Phoenix, which is a struggle.

What’s the package you were thinking for Fox anyway?

When the news broke out it had to be Dev or Steph and fillers. And then either Atl25 or Atl26 plus one more FRP down the road. That’s what I had in my mind.

[scott]

What’s the package you were thinking for Fox anyway?

When the news broke out it had to be Dev or Steph and fillers. And then either Atl25 or Atl26 plus one more FRP down the road. That’s what I had in my mind.

Like I posted above, I'm personally not too keen on making a move for Fox right now... but if I were told that the Spurs FO had a hard on for him and we're definitely making that move, then my best proposal would be:

Devin
Tre
Branham
Best of ATL/SA 25
Best of ATL/SA 27
Tear up the 31 Swap

for

Fox
Huerter

Tre and Branham are just salary matching for Huerter. Tre is an expiring they can probably flip for an SRP, or they just let expire in the offseason. This saves them about $11MM on the cap next year versus Huerter.

For Fox they they a young promising player (Dev), two FRPs with upside, and out of their swap obligations. I think that is fair considering the (lack of) leverage they'll have with Fox.

But... like I said, I wouldn't actually want to do this deal right now, this is just the most I'd be willing to pay if PATFO called me up and told me to make it happen within reason. Honestly, SAC might ask for more...

[100%duncan]

Like I posted above, I'm personally not too keen on making a move for Fox right now... but if I were told that the Spurs FO had a hard on for him and we're definitely making that move, then my best proposal would be:

Devin
Tre
Branham
Best of ATL/SA 25
Best of ATL/SA 27
Tear up the 31 Swap

for

Fox
Huerter

Tre and Branham are just salary matching for Huerter. Tre is an expiring they can probably flip for an SRP, or they just let expire in the offseason. This saves them about $11MM on the cap next year versus Huerter.

For Fox they they a young promising player (Dev), two FRPs with upside, and out of their swap obligations. I think that is fair considering the (lack of) leverage they'll have with Fox.

But... like I said, I wouldn't actually want to do this deal right now, this is just the most I'd be willing to pay if PATFO called me up and told me to make it happen within reason. Honestly, SAC might ask for more...
That is honestly a fair offer that even I would be hesitant to make. If they ask more then they can go ahead and fuck themselves :lol They really shot themselves in the foot with DeEmptyStats.

[scott]

That is honestly a fair offer that even I would be hesitant to make. If they ask more then they can go ahead and fuck themselves :lol They really shot themselves in the foot with DeEmptyStats.

I work with a huge Kings fan and I've been having fun with this. I told him before the season that Demar was a mistake but he didn't believe me. He's at least resigned to the fact that they need to make a major change though, because they are going nowhere.

[tbdog]

Like I posted above, I'm personally not too keen on making a move for Fox right now... but if I were told that the Spurs FO had a hard on for him and we're definitely making that move, then my best proposal would be:

Devin
Tre
Branham
Best of ATL/SA 25
Best of ATL/SA 27
Tear up the 31 Swap

for

Fox
Huerter

Tre and Branham are just salary matching for Huerter. Tre is an expiring they can probably flip for an SRP, or they just let expire in the offseason. This saves them about $11MM on the cap next year versus Huerter.

For Fox they they a young promising player (Dev), two FRPs with upside, and out of their swap obligations. I think that is fair considering the (lack of) leverage they'll have with Fox.

But... like I said, I wouldn't actually want to do this deal right now, this is just the most I'd be willing to pay if PATFO called me up and told me to make it happen within reason. Honestly, SAC might ask for more...

How does that go well with CP3? Yes CP3 is worst, but he came her to be a starter and to mentor, and he is working. He is teaching. Is it worth getting Fox and pissing off CP3? Considering Fox isn't the most perfect fit. On top of losing Vassell who might be one of the best shooters in league going forward?

[100%duncan]

I work with a huge Kings fan and I've been having fun with this. I told him before the season that Demar was a mistake but he didn't believe me. He's at least resigned to the fact that they need to make a major change though, because they are going nowhere.

Any long time NBA fan should've known that from the start :lol Which is why I never followed this team religiously post-Kawhi and pre-Wemby. Those Derozan years just sucked the life out of me.

[Frenchfred]

How does that go well with CP3? Yes CP3 is worst, but he came her to be a starter and to mentor, and he is working. He is teaching. Is it worth getting Fox and pissing off CP3? Considering Fox isn't the most perfect fit. On top of losing Vassell who might be one of the best shooters in league going forward?

unless the Spurs know already that CP3 will be traded during the season

[Davidicus]

You gotta trade Devin over Castle. We know who Devin is, and more importantly, who he will never be. He’s a very good yet streaky shooter who can get a bucket in iso or catch and shoot. He’ll never be a shot creator for others, or an above average defender, and at this point be consistently healthy (I hope he does, as a human being). Castle is almost everything Devin isn’t - a great defender, shot creator, facilitator, high ball IQ, with a strong and durable frame (knock on wood). Shooting is his weakness but my god he’s 20yo. To quote KG, anything is possible. With all that on the table between the two players, you pair Castle with Wemby, not Devin.

As I watch the Pacers stomp the Kings, Fox is good at basketball (breaking news). You see the speed, handling, shot creation, passing, and collecting fouls. Like others have said, young shot creators are not growing on trees in the NBA. Him and Wemby would be magic, and his opportunistic defense would work well with Wemby behind him.

My only concern on Fox, interested in everyone’s opinion, is if his game is so reliant on speed, what happens around age 32? And we don’t have Engelland around like Tony did. You assume he works his shot over time and we build around the duo, so of course not a deal breaker, but something to think about.

But yeah you go get him at the right price. Would love Fox Huerter for Vassell Collins and picks, hoping Kings convince themselves they could use a properly sized backup C for Sabonis vs 6’9” Lyles. As for the picks - SA 25, SA 27, and maybe SA 29 + some 2nds? Only 2 FRPs would be close to highway robbery, but one can pray.

[Davidicus]

How does that go well with CP3? Yes CP3 is worst, but he came her to be a starter and to mentor, and he is working. He is teaching. Is it worth getting Fox and pissing off CP3? Considering Fox isn't the most perfect fit. On top of losing Vassell who might be one of the best shooters in league going forward?

Bro…CP3 has a brain. He’s said he’s in the league for another 1-2 years. Just think about this for a second. What’s he gonna say to PATFO? “Hey why did you make a move for your future and 20yo phenom and not me?”

[100%duncan]

You gotta trade Devin over Castle. We know who Devin is, and more importantly, who he will never be. He’s a very good yet streaky shooter who can get a bucket in iso or catch and shoot. He’ll never be a shot creator for others, or an above average defender, and at this point be consistently healthy (I hope he does, as a human being). Castle is almost everything Devin isn’t - a great defender, shot creator, facilitator, high ball IQ, with a strong and durable frame (knock on wood). Shooting is his weakness but my god he’s 20yo. To quote KG, anything is possible. With all that on the table between the two players, you pair Castle with Wemby, not Devin.

As I watch the Pacers stomp the Kings, Fox is good at basketball (breaking news). You see the speed, handling, shot creation, passing, and collecting fouls. Like others have said, young shot creators are not growing on trees in the NBA. Him and Wemby would be magic, and his opportunistic defense would work well with Wemby behind him.

My only concern on Fox, interested in everyone’s opinion, is if his game is so reliant on speed, what happens around age 32? And we don’t have Engelland around like Tony did. You assume he works his shot over time and we build around the duo, so of course not a deal breaker, but something to think about.

But yeah you go get him at the right price. Would love Fox Huerter for Vassell Collins and picks, hoping Kings convince themselves they could use a properly sized backup C for Sabonis vs 6’9” Lyles. As for the picks - SA 25, SA 27, and maybe SA 29 + some 2nds? Only 2 FRPs would be close to highway robbery, but one can pray.

Steph is a dog and I would love for him to be Wemby's #2 actually, but expectations and reality are different. He had a great stretch and now he's hit a rookie wall, understandably so. But saying Castle>Devin taking future considerations into account doesn't sit well with me as of this moment.

[Davidicus]

Steph is a dog and I would love for him to be Wemby's #2 actually, but expectations and reality are different. He had a great stretch and now he's hit a rookie wall, understandably so. But saying Castle>Devin taking future considerations into account doesn't sit well with me as of this moment.

It’s a gamble either way, but Castle is the safer bet. With his work ethic and shooting form, I personally have no doubt he at least will grow into an average shooter, if not better. And with Fox, Castle is Wemby’s #3, not 2.

[rascal]

Spurs always seemed rumored with everyone but never do anything.

Spurs are tight fisted giving anything of value in a trade and don't want to part with their first round picks and would rather build through the draft. That's just how this front office runs.

[tbdog]

Bro…CP3 has a brain. He’s said he’s in the league for another 1-2 years. Just think about this for a second. What’s he gonna say to PATFO? “Hey why did you make a move for your future and 20yo phenom and not me?”

The point was, is Fox the ideal fit. For an ideal fit, you go for it. It's business. Sure. But with all the options in the league that the Spurs have on their target list, where would Fox lie? Where would you put him? It's not like the Spurs are in desperate mode or anything.

[scott]

How does that go well with CP3? Yes CP3 is worst, but he came her to be a starter and to mentor, and he is working. He is teaching. Is it worth getting Fox and pissing off CP3? Considering Fox isn't the most perfect fit. On top of losing Vassell who might be one of the best shooters in league going forward?

In this hypothetical, I think the Spurs would be okay with starting CP3 and Fox next to each other with Sochan and Barnes as the wings and while I wouldn't love it due to having a combo midget backcourt, I wouldn't necessarily hate it (eh... I probably hate it). Then you run a 3-guard rotation with CP3-Fox-Castle. For whatever reason, PATFO likes running these CP3-Tre minutes. It's not what I would do, but I don't think they'd have a problem with it.

[scott]

You gotta trade Devin over Castle. We know who Devin is, and more importantly, who he will never be. He’s a very good yet streaky shooter who can get a bucket in iso or catch and shoot. He’ll never be a shot creator for others, or an above average defender, and at this point be consistently healthy (I hope he does, as a human being). Castle is almost everything Devin isn’t - a great defender, shot creator, facilitator, high ball IQ, with a strong and durable frame (knock on wood). Shooting is his weakness but my god he’s 20yo. To quote KG, anything is possible. With all that on the table between the two players, you pair Castle with Wemby, not Devin.

As I watch the Pacers stomp the Kings, Fox is good at basketball (breaking news). You see the speed, handling, shot creation, passing, and collecting fouls. Like others have said, young shot creators are not growing on trees in the NBA. Him and Wemby would be magic, and his opportunistic defense would work well with Wemby behind him.

My only concern on Fox, interested in everyone’s opinion, is if his game is so reliant on speed, what happens around age 32? And we don’t have Engelland around like Tony did. You assume he works his shot over time and we build around the duo, so of course not a deal breaker, but something to think about.

But yeah you go get him at the right price. Would love Fox Huerter for Vassell Collins and picks, hoping Kings convince themselves they could use a properly sized backup C for Sabonis vs 6’9” Lyles. As for the picks - SA 25, SA 27, and maybe SA 29 + some 2nds? Only 2 FRPs would be close to highway robbery, but one can pray.

Solid post. Like you said, it's a gamble no matter who you pick between Castle and Devin, but I think the signs point to picking Castle (plus you might be able to get more for Devin right now, and you get the benefit of shedding his contract). I would easily pick Castle of the two as well, The defense is a huge difference maker.

[Kevin]

More random thoughts:

1. Tre's inclusion in the deal would be a no brainer for both sides. If the Spurs add Fox in addition to CP3 Castle plus one of Wesley/Mal they have no need for a Tre. Conversely the Kings could really need another PG if they dealt Fox with Dev being a SG.

3. I keep hearing that Dev's deal is team friendly at 29M which I think is dubious. If it is in-fact team friendly then Fox making about 37M is extremely team friendly. Over the next 1.5 years Dev and Fox make comparable money which is nuts because Fox is vastly more all around than Dev.

3. Taking back Heuter's contract is not a big deal as his contract (16m) expires at the same time as Barnes (18M) and Zollins (18M). Plus Fox is still under contract though next season at 37M.

4. The Kings still have DDR, Sabonis and Murray and are unlikely to want to nuke everything for the best future assets possible. Win now assets make more sense thus the inclusion of Dev, Tre, ATL Picks fast conveying and dumping the Hueter deal a year early.

5.A smattering of second round picks make sense since the Kings are light on second rounders long term while the Spurs have way too many.

[Manure]

This guy is reminiscent of prime TP. No wonder the FO is interested in him. An Elite penetrator with a big that can do anything.....that's scary asf.

[mudyez]

After all the question is, if the Spurs are in love with the "all positions have size and can defend" idea. While Fox is an ok defender, it would push Castle (if Dev is rhe one being traded) to the wing, thus making us a rather short team in the backcourt.

Also there are questions about Devins health. Is he really reliable enough moving forward? Losing every second year contending because he is injured seems bleak.

For me, I really like Fox and see him as one of the affordable "Stars" that I like to get even if it costs us some of the FRPs. But nontheless I'd rather stick with the mentioned defense/size concept as it feels like it could make our team something really special.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

I'd take fox. Also would take trae

[objective]

The more research I do the more I like moving for Fox

He did lead the league in steals last year, I imagine he could wreak more havoc with Wemby scaring teams like he does.

He's not a bad defender like the other rumored point guard of the last 2 years, Trae Young. And he's a legit 6-3 with some length and not a stubby frail looking 6-1 (allegedly) like Young

And while he's not a 100% perfect fit because he's a below average shooter, at least he'll take the shots.

He can score at every level, and he's a big time scorer. Kings have been a top 10 offense the last 3 years with Fox, I think SA would be similar, they're 17th now.

Fox this season has had a 60 point game and followed it up with a 49 point game.

He's been a consistent 25+ per game for several years. No one else on the roster has that potential. Finding someone in the draft who can get 25 every night on his own is no guarantee, and it takes years to get there any way.

If the Kings would be sad enough to take Zollins and Keldon I'd be happy with both ATL picks, the Chicago and Charlotte potential picks, and giving them their swap back. A 9 man rotation of Wemby, Barnes, Vassell, Castle, Fox, Sochan, Paul, Champagnie and Bassey .... They're an easy playoff team and would be a series threat for playoff upset.

Not worried about the contract. Not eligible for the Supermax unlike Young who's already on one. And Spurs have never had a hard relationship with Klutch.

Get it done B-Wrong!

[objective]

Fox is also averaging 3.6 deflections per 36, which is more than any Spur this season on the active roster and is the most of any rotation player since Dejounte in 21-22

[exstatic]

I'd take fox. Also would take trae

Still Stanning for Trae at this point isn’t a great look. He’s shooting 32% from long, and his FTAs are down to 6.5, off of his career best 9.3 and only better than his rookie mark of 5.1. If he’s not shooting well and not getting to the line a ton, that no trade is looking like a serious bullet dodged.

[LeBowen]

And he's a legit 6-3 with some length and not a stubby frail looking 6-1 (allegedly) like Young

He's clearly taller than a lot of players listed at 6'3 and has a 6'6.5 wingspan.

I don't even trust official heights anymore, just look at this picture:

https://i.imgur.com/1aGKUaa.jpeg

6'1, 6'3, 6'2, 6'3, 6'5, 6'3 are their listed heights.
Fox is clearly taller than Steph and Scoot who are also listed at 6'1 and Seth looks taller than his brother despite being listed at just 6'1.

[KingKev]

Like I posted above, I'm personally not too keen on making a move for Fox right now... but if I were told that the Spurs FO had a hard on for him and we're definitely making that move, then my best proposal would be:

Devin
Tre
Branham
Best of ATL/SA 25
Best of ATL/SA 27
Tear up the 31 Swap

for

Fox
Huerter

Tre and Branham are just salary matching for Huerter. Tre is an expiring they can probably flip for an SRP, or they just let expire in the offseason. This saves them about $11MM on the cap next year versus Huerter.

For Fox they they a young promising player (Dev), two FRPs with upside, and out of their swap obligations. I think that is fair considering the (lack of) leverage they'll have with Fox.

But... like I said, I wouldn't actually want to do this deal right now, this is just the most I'd be willing to pay if PATFO called me up and told me to make it happen within reason. Honestly, SAC might ask for more...

I’m in your camp on all of this. Suspect this is a price that could clear the market. Don’t love it tbh but would be nice just to see a shakeup as I don’t see the draft saving us anytime soon.

[LeBowen]

I’m in your camp on all of this. Suspect this is a price that could clear the market. Don’t love it tbh but would be nice just to see a shakeup as I don’t see the draft saving us anytime soon.

If we're taking Huerter's bad contract, I'd offer just one of those ATL/SA picks.

[RC_Drunkford]

You could swap DeRozan for Champagnie and the Kings would be better

[twodeep]

i though the NBA require real heights without shoes to be listed I know some of the old ones height stayed as listed but like all new players get real height listed when they get measured at combine etc

[DAF86]

The more research I do the more I like moving for Fox

He did lead the league in steals last year, I imagine he could wreak more havoc with Wemby scaring teams like he does.

He's not a bad defender like the other rumored point guard of the last 2 years, Trae Young. And he's a legit 6-3 with some length and not a stubby frail looking 6-1 (allegedly) like Young

And while he's not a 100% perfect fit because he's a below average shooter, at least he'll take the shots.

He can score at every level, and he's a big time scorer. Kings have been a top 10 offense the last 3 years with Fox, I think SA would be similar, they're 17th now.

Fox this season has had a 60 point game and followed it up with a 49 point game.

He's been a consistent 25+ per game for several years. No one else on the roster has that potential. Finding someone in the draft who can get 25 every night on his own is no guarantee, and it takes years to get there any way.

If the Kings would be sad enough to take Zollins and Keldon I'd be happy with both ATL picks, the Chicago and Charlotte potential picks, and giving them their swap back. A 9 man rotation of Wemby, Barnes, Vassell, Castle, Fox, Sochan, Paul, Champagnie and Bassey .... They're an easy playoff team and would be a series threat for playoff upset.

Not worried about the contract. Not eligible for the Supermax unlike Young who's already on one. And Spurs have never had a hard relationship with Klutch.

Get it done B-Wrong!

SL: CP3, Fox, Vassell, Sochan, Wemby
Bench: Tre, Castle, Champ, Barnes, Bassey

[Joseph Kony]

Fox is a good player but not sure he's the player I'd blow my load on. If Spurs manage to get a legit #2 first, Fox is the kinda guy you bring in. But as it stands, I don't think he's putting us in contention or anything so imo better to just see how Castle develops over the next couple of years before bringing in a new PG

[LeBowen]

Fox is a good player but not sure he's the player I'd blow my load on. If Spurs manage to get a legit #2 first, Fox is the kinda guy you bring in. But as it stands, I don't think he's putting us in contention or anything so imo better to just see how Castle develops over the next couple of years before bringing in a new PG

I think that the idea with Fox would be playing him together with Castle.
It looks like the era of traditional shooting guards is behind us, every team has multiple perimeter creators, scorers who can't create aren't as valued unless they're also very good defenders.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Still Stanning for Trae at this point isn’t a great look. He’s shooting 32% from long, and his FTAs are down to 6.5, off of his career best 9.3 and only better than his rookie mark of 5.1. If he’s not shooting well and not getting to the line a ton, that no trade is looking like a serious bullet dodged.

it depends on the trade package but trae is a really good player

[twodeep]

Fox is a good player but not sure he's the player I'd blow my load on. If Spurs manage to get a legit #2 first, Fox is the kinda guy you bring in. But as it stands, I don't think he's putting us in contention or anything so imo better to just see how Castle develops over the next couple of years before bringing in a new PG

Is castle a PG or more a combo guard that main should be SG and can play some point as needed ? His shooting has improved already this year which hopefully projects to long term improvement as while with his shooting stats

[exstatic]

it depends on the trade package but trae is a really good player

He’s lost a lot of value with the new freer defense guidelines. That drop in FTAs didn’t happen accidentally. Throw in far worse shooting, added to his already crap defense, and it’s a wonder no teams are interested. If they were,he’d be gone.

As for the Price, ATL has been pretty firm that we’re not getting him for less than all of their picks back, which is a trade call hangup for me.

[The Truth #6]

After winning their own Dejounte trade, they may have lowered the threshold for a Trae trade. We'll see.

[exstatic]

After winning their own Dejounte trade, they may have lowered the threshold for a Trae trade. We'll see.

I actually don’t think we will see. With his drop in offensive stats, his only drawing card, most teams have had their interest wane, and that probably includes us.

[scott]

SL: CP3, Fox, Vassell, Sochan, Wemby
Bench: Tre, Castle, Champ, Barnes, Bassey

If we were starting CP3 and Fox together, you'd almost by necessity need to start Sochan and Barnes as the wings, IMO. A CP3/Fox/Vassell trio would get destroyed, I suspect. I think a CP3/Fox backcourt also limits Castles ability to play the situational SF. CP3/Fox/Castle/Sochan is a non-starter, and CP3/Fox/Castle/Barnes probably still doesn't work because of a lack of shooting. Would be tough to make it work if you still have CP3, Devin, Castle and Jeremy to fit in, which is another reason I wouldn't make this move now. It might make more sense in the summer when the CP3 situation works itself out by him potentially retiring.

One possible solution is that you move CP3, but I don't think they'd do that. CP3 has been an invaluable addition and even if they have an agreement to move him to a contender at the deadline, by getting Fox the Spurs have become that playoff contender (though not a legit title contender). I think both sides would kind of view it as doing CP3 dirty to dump him at that point (and I'm not sure that many legit contenders want or need CP3 anyway).

[Bruno]

First, Fox was measured before his draft, his official measurements were:
Height without shoes: 6' 2''
Height with shoes: 6' 3.25''
Standing reach: 8' 4''
Weight: 169.6 lbs
Wingspan: 6' 6.5''

Vecenie had a quite interesting podcast about Fox. For him, Rockets are the team that should try the most to get him. What he is hearing about Spurs is that Klutch has tried for quite some time to put a guard in SA with Wembanyama.
Link below start at that tidbit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKE4V09nL0c&t=1800s

[scott]

If we're taking Huerter's bad contract, I'd offer just one of those ATL/SA picks.

Huerter's contract isn't that bad. He's a much more useful player than Collins, for example. While your suggestion might be what's the best move for the Spurs, I put a near zero possibility of SAC agreeing to that.

In reality, Houston is likely the better trading partner for SAC for Fox anyway. They can return picks and more young talent (Spurs fans don't want to give up any young talent, which is going to be a problem). SAC should probably also look for a total tear down by moving Sabonis and DeRozan as well, but I doubt they'll do that - so they'll attempt a soft reconfiguring as opposed to a total tear down, and it will probably just mean another decade of mediocre to poor results (hopefully through 20131)

[LeBowen]

First, Fox was measured before his draft, his official measurements were:
Height without shoes: 6' 2''
Height with shoes: 6' 3.25''
Standing reach: 8' 4''
Weight: 169.6 lbs
Wingspan: 6' 6.5''

I just tried to find some more comparison pictures and he's obviously grown since those draft measurements were taken.

https://i.imgur.com/zllW7Cj.png

You can't tell me Dejounte has 2 inches on Fox.
He's legit 6'4 with great wingspan, size is definitely not an issue.

[LeBowen]

Huerter's contract isn't that bad. He's a much more useful player than Collins, for example.

Not difficult to be more useful than the worst player in the league.
Huerter is a Keldon level player, if not worse.


While your suggestion might be what's the best move for the Spurs, I put a near zero possibility of SAC agreeing to that.

In reality, Houston is likely the better trading partner for SAC for Fox anyway. They can return picks and more young talent (Spurs fans don't want to give up any young talent, which is going to be a problem). SAC should probably also look for a total tear down by moving Sabonis and DeRozan as well, but I doubt they'll do that - so they'll attempt a soft reconfiguring as opposed to a total tear down, and it will probably just mean another decade of mediocre to poor results (hopefully through 20131)

It's Rich Paul we're talking about, he'll want to pair him with Wemby.
Going from Sabonis to Sengun would just be more of the same, I doubt Fox wants to play with another big who can't defend the rim at all.

Watching this Vecine suggestion, what the hell is he smoking?
Whitmore and Sheppard are both out of the rotation in Houston, Adams and Jeff Green are washed veterans, HOU picks would be low value and '25 PHX pick isn't good, either.

Just Devin by himself is almost worth more than that package.

[scott]

After winning their own Dejounte trade, they may have lowered the threshold for a Trae trade. We'll see.

I don't think we'll see, because ATL isn't looking to move Trae and Trae isn't looking to get out. By all appearances both sides appear happy with where they are at.

[R. DeMurre]

A CP3/Fox back court sounds truly terrible to me, even though CP3 obviously isn't in the long term plans, and moving Castle to SF pretty much negates his size advantage, so you'd have an undersized PG in CP3, an undersized SG in Fox, and Castle out of position. I think this is the worst approach for a team with Wemby... I dream about a historically good D, not one where three positions are compromised because we think Victor can cover any and all shortcomings. Atlanta just moved on from this same mistake, moving Dejounte from PG to SG, where he lost his size advantage to become a completely average sized defender instead of an unusually lengthy one. Undersized back courts are such a massive built in issue to overcome, and the possibility of them producing championships is so statistically tiny that i just don't see the point in even investigating that approach.

[scott]

Not difficult to be more useful than the worst player in the league.
Huerter is a Keldon level player, if not worse.





I agree he's about a Keldon level player. It probably wouldn't cost a FRP to get off Keldon, and Keldon's contract is significantly worse.

It wouldn't cost SAC an FRP to get off Huerter.

[scott]

A CP3/Fox back court sounds truly terrible to me, even though CP3 obviously isn't in the long term plans, and moving Castle to SF pretty much negates his size advantage, so you'd have an undersized PG in CP3, an undersized SG in Fox, and Castle out of position. I think this is the worst approach for a team with Wemby... I dream about a historically good D, not one where three positions are compromised because we think Victor can cover any and all shortcomings. Undersized back courts are such a massive built in issue to overcome, and the possibility of them producing championships is so statistically tiny that i just don't see the point in even investigating that approach.

I agree - which is a big part of why I wouldn't do this now. But I could definitely see PATFO rolling out CP3/Fox lineups just like they are cramming CP3/Tre lineups down our throat right now.

[scott]

It's Rich Paul we're talking about, he'll want to pair him with Wemby.
Going from Sabonis to Sengun would just be more of the same, I doubt Fox wants to play with another big who can't defend the rim at all.

Watching this Vecine suggestion, what the hell is he smoking?
Whitmore and Sheppard are both out of the rotation in Houston, Adams and Jeff Green are washed veterans, HOU picks would be low value and '25 PHX pick isn't good, either.

Just Devin by himself is almost worth more than that package.

Sometimes you really let your Spurs-Colored Glasses get the best of you, tbh.

[baseline bum]

I work with a huge Kings fan and I've been having fun with this. I told him before the season that Demar was a mistake but he didn't believe me. He's at least resigned to the fact that they need to make a major change though, because they are going nowhere.

Funniest thing is when Bulls fans were clowning on the Spurs for letting them have DeRozan and all I could say was man I seen this hot start to the season crap with him before man, wait until Feb-March when the games start mattering. Sac didn't even get the early season honeymoon out of it though. :lol

[LeBowen]

I agree - which is a big part of why I wouldn't do this now. But I could definitely see PATFO rolling out CP3/Fox lineups just like they are cramming CP3/Tre lineups down our throat right now.

If we trade Devin and Tre, it would be a 3 man guard rotation.
CP3/Fox/Castle with any combination being able to play together. Champagnie would also get some SG minutes if needed.

CP3/Fox/Jeremy/Barnes/Wemby
Castle/Champ/Keldon/Bassey

That's a reasonable 9 man rotation. The next move would be to upgrade Collins into a legit backup big.
Upgrade Keldon into a legit starting wing in the summer. If Castle improves enough that wing starts in place of Jeremy and Castle starts in place of CP3.

[scott]

If we trade Devin and Tre, it would be a 3 man guard rotation.
CP3/Fox/Castle with any combination being able to play together. Champagnie would also get some SG minutes if needed.

CP3/Fox/Jeremy/Barnes/Wemby
Castle/Champ/Keldon/Bassey

That's a reasonable 9 man rotation. The next move would be to upgrade Collins into a legit backup big.
Upgrade Keldon into a legit starting wing in the summer. If Castle improves enough that wing starts in place of Jeremy and Castle starts in place of CP3.

Yeah so long as you have CP3, then one of Castle or Vassell has to go (I'd keep Castle of the two). The problem is that CP3 isn't a long term solution either. Fox/Castle/Vassell would actually be a really nice long-term 3-man guard lineup in and of itself, but I personally don't find it very realistic to get Fox without SAC demanding one of them. Sochan doesn't fit with Derozan/Murray/Sabonis either so I don't think it's a matter of swapping him into the trade. Spurs could always just go super-pick heavy and involve a third team to get SAC the promising young player their fans seem to insist on as part of the deal (which makes sense from their POV given that trading Fox doesn't take them in and of itself)

[LeBowen]

I'd keep Castle of the two

I think PATFO still holds to their principles even at the cost of losing out on a player.
There's no way they trade Castle a few months into his rookie season after all the scouting they did.

Kings also aren't a well-ran franchise, while Castle has upside who's to guarantee he develops. Sabonis is 28 and they'll want to keep competing with him.
Devin's fairly team friendly deal just started, he'd instantly be Kings' best floor spacer and if it's Fox+Huerter for Devin+Tre it would be a PG+SG from either side.
Then they could use those picks to get another player or two.

I think they'd want Castle only if they're trading everyone away and starting a full rebuild, which doesn't look likely.
They finally got back into the playoff picture and the team is generating money, that's all their ownership cares for.

[Seventyniner]

Don't most of the Fox/Spurs rumors have the trade happening this summer rather than at this season's deadline? If so, the whole CP3/Fox thing won't be a problem because CP3 will be a free agent. The Spurs can tell him he's welcome to stick around if he's willing to come off the bench, and if not then thanks for a great season and good luck wherever you go.

[scott]

I think PATFO still holds to their principles even at the cost of losing out on a player.
There's no way they trade Castle a few months into his rookie season after all the scouting they did.

Kings also aren't a well-ran franchise, while Castle has upside who's to guarantee he develops. Sabonis is 28 and they'll want to keep competing with him.
Devin's fairly team friendly deal just started, he'd instantly be Kings' best floor spacer and if it's Fox+Huerter for Devin+Tre it would be a PG+SG from either side.
Then they could use those picks to get another player or two.

I think they'd want Castle only if they're trading everyone away and starting a full rebuild, which doesn't look likely.
They finally got back into the playoff picture and the team is generating money, that's all their ownership cares for.

I think that's absolutely correct. From the SAC point of view, I don't see them going total blow it up. It would be too painful to try and move Fox, Sabonis, Derozan and Monk. At that point they might as well move Murray as well. I'm not sure we've ever see a firesale so significant in a short amount of time. Gobert/Mitchell and Kyrie/KD probably the closest examples but that was only two guys... can you think of anything closer?

So if we put our SAC glasses on and think about potential destinations that can deliver draft capital and promising young players (going to us this :


OKC - gotta assume they are out. They have no need for Fox and they certainly aren't giving up JWill or Chet. They have some other young players they could piece together, but this will hamper their ability to keep their big 3.
SA - Only Devin or Steph make sense. A Derozan/Sochan/Sabonis lineup would be completely unworkable... it's gross even thinking about it... only Gregg Popovich would try something so insulting.
BKN - Doesn't fit their timeline at all and don't really have a player that makes sense for SAC. Cam Thomas is the only one who remotely fits but he'd be a major downgrade from Fox
UTA - Doesn't fit their timeline either, unless they made a couple of other moves. Fox + Lauri would be an interesting duo. Keyonte George + Cody Williams + multiple FRPs might make sense... but I don't think Utah is ready to do this.
HOU - Lots of young players to choose from, and draft capital. Yeah, HOU aren't the juiciest (but neither are SA's own), but PHX27 is nice, and they also have the two best of PHX29, DAL29 and their own. HOU27 with BKN swap rights might be their best trade chip.
NOP - this could be a dark horse? Zion + CJ + Picks for Fox + Monk + Huerter works. I would want zero part of Zion, but he could be enticing risk for a GM with nothing to lose.
ORL? Fox would be an interesting backcourt pairing with Suggs. Not sure if Orlando has enough interesting talent to try and keep Suggs/Paolo/Franz though... they'd probably have to lose Suggs. Could be interesting.
DET? At some point the Pistons gotta try something right? They were rumored to be interested in Lavine last year.

[Kevin]

I actually don’t think we will see. With his drop in offensive stats, his only drawing card, most teams have had their interest wane, and that probably includes us.

I wanted to Trae Young but those debates will end up at a draw as both sides significantly over valued their preferred assets.

Now trading some of the Hawks picks for Lauri is whole different story.

[jesterbobman]

I'd guess that the Kings would be interested in Vassell most, as I don't think they want a tear down completely, and their spacing issues with Murray forgetting how to shoot / DeMar / Sabonis mean that Sochan and Castle would fit badly.

I wonder about something like Vassell and Tre Jones to the Kings, return their swap rights and add a 2025 first from us or Atlanta, a bunch of seconds to give the Kings more assets (The Charlotte first / 2 seconds, some others), Keldon and the Bulls pick to the Bulls, Coby White to the Kings, Huerter and Fox to SA.
I think the Bulls would accept (can outright tank easily, but the Bulls Ownership has historically been a push to mediocrity group), Spurs would be better, fits the type of deal I'd guess the Kings would want. Exact picks are probably a little light, but the structure makes sense to me.

[KingKev]

If we're taking Huerter's bad contract, I'd offer just one of those ATL/SA picks.

Part of that is buying into him shooting league average on 5-6 attempted 3 balls. Same way you consider Jimmy Buckets and eat Duncan Robinson in giving up 3-4 FRPs.

[objective]

Don't most of the Fox/Spurs rumors have the trade happening this summer rather than at this season's deadline? If so, the whole CP3/Fox thing won't be a problem because CP3 will be a free agent. The Spurs can tell him he's welcome to stick around if he's willing to come off the bench, and if not then thanks for a great season and good luck wherever you go.

Part of the possible reason or doing a trade mid-season for the Kings is that their draft pick is protected top 12. In a draft this loaded, getting that pick might be worth taking a step back. If they are a 10 seed and don't advance in the play-in, they probably lose their pick.

It's easier to just sit guys with any kind of injury and not making a trade, but a trade is possible.

They did love Devin Carter in the draft, going with him and future picks and their own pick in 25 with pressure from Rich Paul ... Maybe it happens? Still a longshot

[objective]

On the generalized, traditional leaderboards without consideration for games played thresholds, Fox is 10th in the league in scoring this year, and 10th last season.

In the 3 seasons before, he was 20th (22-23), 23rd (21-22), and 16th (20-21)

If you include games played thresholds and just look up the official top scorers normally in the NBA app, he's top 15 in those seasons 21-22 thru 22-23, and he's 8th place in points per game this season and last.

Scorers like him, dependable big time scorers are going to be VERY hard to come by.

This is the opportunity.

I like him more than the deals for Markannen. Markannen would and still will cost a fortune in assets, isn't a reliable top 15 scorer, is a good 3 point shooter but not a great one, and doesn't particularly rebound or pass and create. Defense might be in Fox's favor but could just be a wash. Age is the same.

[Pauleta14]

From the 20:25 mark

He sees Wemby as a top10 player ready for title contention and Fox as an ideal partner to compete RIGHT AWAY


https://youtu.be/zL2VStuHxI4?si=RWq9JbWS19KEKKp1

[LeBowen]

He sees Wemby as a top10 player ready for title contention and Fox as an ideal partner to compete RIGHT AWAY

He's probably the best guard partner for Wemby we can get.

https://i.imgur.com/ulu7tuW.png

Top20 guards by PPG this season.

LaMelo - retard.
SGA - no chance to get him.
Luka - same.
Fox - matter of this discussion.
Lillard - 34.
Brunson - no chance to get him, 6'1 with exploitable defense.
Maxey - another undersized chucker.
Herro - his best year so far, awful defender.
Cade - no way to get him, slow and methodical guard, not what we need. Bad defender.
Kyrie - 32.
Steph -36.
Trae - do I even need to say anything?
Garland - too small, but I actually like him as a player.
Murray - overrated chucker who finally got exposed.
Haliburton - scammed his way into a supermax.
Coby - decent microwave scorer, not someone you rely on.
Schroeder - 31 and a role player.
Ivey - actually an interesting player, but not what we need.
Derrick - no chance to get him back.
Sexton - I'd like him as a 6th man.

Sorting by assists adds CP3, Westbrook and Tyus Jones on the list, I don't think any explanation is needed.

If we exclude players we have absolutely 0% chance to obtain, Fox is easily the best established guard target we can get.
Imo, it's either Fox or just reliable veterans and hoping Castle develops.

[objective]

Another thing to like about Fox: be was the Clutch Player of the Year award winner in 22-23

How could you not want him next to Wemby?

[Obstructed_View]

Looking at his game logs, he's consistent. He doesn't score 40 one night and six the next. Having a guy who can score night-in night-out is valuable. The danger is that he seems to be very inconsistent from three. Vic needs one goddamn sharpshooter to have for the two man game. His chemistry with McDermott never materialized and nobody else he's played with is worth a shit from three.

[LeBowen]

Looking at his game logs, he's consistent. He doesn't score 40 one night and six the next. Having a guy who can score night-in night-out is valuable. The danger is that he seems to be very inconsistent from three. Vic needs one goddamn sharpshooter to have for the two man game. His chemistry with McDermott never materialized and nobody else he's played with is worth a shit from three.

The issue is that their spacing is so horrible and he takes a lot of off the dribble 3pts, I'm sure he'd be in 36-38% range if he was taking normal jumpshots.
For example, 101 assisted FG this season and 188 unassisted.
But he's got 38 assisted 3pts and 24 unassisted even though he took 50 more pull up jumphots than catch and shoot ones.

[scott]

NGL, seeing the Tony Parker highlights that League Pass shows during commercials makes me more interested in Fox.

[objective]

This really is the kind of deal they've been waiting for. You'll never get someone in a trade who's this established and significantly younger than Fox. Because every team will extend that guy off his rookie deal to see what is possible.

Cade Cunningham was extended, so was LaMelio, so those kinds of guys in their rookie deals, forget about it. Maybe you can get someone 25 or 26, but at that point it's just splitting hairs considering Fox just turned 27

I don't see a better point guard available on the horizon. I doubt Ja Morant gets to a trade market in the next 3 years.

[scott]

For those who want Fox, what’s your best package for him? Actually… give me two. One that sends out one of Devin or Castle, and one that keeps them both. Be realistic, homers.

[The Truth #6]

Devin, Collins, a FRP. I can live with that. Not sure about the FO, however.

[objective]

Don't see the sending out Castle

Sending out Devin:

Vassell, Zollins, 25 ATL first, return of Kings swap, 2 misc seconds

For Fox, Huerter

--

Keeping Vassell

Keldon, Zollins, 25 ATL, 27 ATL, 25 CHI, 25 CHA, Kings swap return

For

Fox, Len

--

In general I would be fine with sending Sochan but can't picture him and Keegan fitting together at all

Tre in place of Zollins wood decrease the outgoing by a potential first at least

[LeBowen]

Time to watcg some Fox highlights to calm myself down.

Call the Kings and tell them Devin is available, 20131 swap is returned and three more FRPs.
Tre, Keldon, Collins, Branham, Wesley are also available for free if they're interested.

[kht]

Devin is just not him... If we could get a bonafide 25 ppg over multiples, scores at all three levels... and Devin is the main piece in that deal, you run away with that trade. I doubt the Kings want that though. It'll be a King's ransom for Fox.

[spursparker9]

Give up Vassell = ok

Give up Castle = not ok

[scott]

Ultimately, my tune might change on Fox in the summer, but I'm definitely out on him for a move now (not even sure he's truly available now). There are just too many questions around what we already have to make that kind of move, notably two big questions, which happen to be of extra importance relative to discussing Fox: 1) Is Devin him? and 2) What is Castle?

Fox will almost certainly cost Devin or Castle (Kings fans seem to want both, which ain't happening). The good thing about Castle is that he offers flexibility and could theoretically play very well with Fox or Devin (though the pairing with Devin is a little more theoretical as we've seen more of Castle as a ball handling SG than a lead PG). If Castle could be a true lead PG, and Devin could prove consistent and healthy, then I'm not sure I want to use assets to disrupt that pairing - I'd rather save my chips to make a move for the ideal wing archetype (Markkanen, Murphy III, Cam Johnson, Jalen Johnson, MPJ are names that all fit, IMO - not all will be available, and they all carry varying costs).

A Fox-Castle pairing is easier to envision because we've already seen Castle in this role and it's easy to understand what he brings and what needs to be developed. SpursBills laid it out in his post, and I echoed. You'll need to match these two up with sharp shooting 3&D wings. Champ and Barnes are okay for now, but you'd want to upgrade those. If Castle develops into an average shooter, you still need those types of wings because Fox is only an average shooter. But your backcourt defense is improved over having Devin in there.

A Fox-Devin pairing lets you play Sochan, who can pick up some of Devin's defensive shortcomings with his perimeter defensive skill, and Devin adds a lot more spacing versus Fox-Castle. I think this actually be one of the best pairings for Devin, honestly, because a lot of ball handling and playmaking would be taken off his plate and less reliance on him attacking the rim, and he'll be able to be more of an opportunistic slasher going towards the rim while putting his jumper to great effectiveness.

A Castle-Devin pairing, which we all assume is the default setting, carries all of the unknown variables that I'm hoping we get answers to this season. Can Devin become more consistent? Can Castle function as a lead PG for extended periods of time? I'm hoping we get some significant Castle-Devin-Champ-Barnes-Wemby lineup minutes to see how it looks. So far we've only seen 4 minutes of this lineup and 5 minutes of the lineup with Bassey in for Wemby, 4 minutes of it with Collins in for Wemby. I need to see more Castle-Dev-Champ-Barnes.

Honestly, the player who fits the least in any of these scenarios is Sochan, who I have been really been pleased with this season and am starting to like a lot, but I think his best role might be as bench glue-guy if Castle is going to a major player for us. If Castle develops into an average shooter, pairing him with Devin is Jeremy's best pathway to be a starter, because I've lost any hope Jeremy will develop into an average shooter.

It's most likely going to cost us, at a minimum, Castle or Dev, 2-3 FRPs, and their swap back. I'm not concerned about the contract - that is easy to work around, especially right now. I am more concerned about what other deals this might crowd out.

I do think we need to start moving some picks, because while "there is no rush" - the are starting to come due. I don't want to punt them for anymore 20131 picks, because those are also less valuable as trade chips. With that said, I'm not even sure we need to make a move for a bona fide "tier 1" star (whatever that means and whomever is in that category). A player of Fox's caliber (like a Markkanen) is a good fit next to Wemby, especially if Castle develops like we hope. But Fox specifically still leaves you having to fill the same holes you have now on the wings... I'd rather get a Malik Monk-type player to be my 3rd guard, and "blow my load" trying to get someone like Markkanen.

At the risk of sounding over reactionary… what I saw from Devin tonight against PHI might go a long way at answering some questions for me… I’m not ready to fully trade in my #LauriThread2025 membership for #TeamFox2025 gear… but my needle is pointing ever more slightly towards the Fox camp.

Will have fun posting some Fox trade scenarios a little later after the kids go to bed, which is past midnight for you Texans :lol

[baseline bum]

For those who want Fox, what’s your best package for him? Actually… give me two. One that sends out one of Devin or Castle, and one that keeps them both. Be realistic, homers.

This one works under the cap:

To Spurs:
De'Aron Fox
Cam Johnson

To Kings:
Devin Vassell
2025 ATL
2026 Spurs w/ ATL swap
Rip up 2031 swap with Sac

To Nets:
Jeremy Sochan
Zach Collins
2030 Best of Spurs/Mavs/Wolves (Mavs top 1 protected)

[Frenchfred]

For those who want Fox, what’s your best package for him? Actually… give me two. One that sends out one of Devin or Castle, and one that keeps them both. Be realistic, homers.

I would send Devin and Keldon or Collins + the best of Atlanta/Spurs 25, plus Atlanta swap 26 and return of Kings swap and 2 second round picks for Fox and Huerter

[Frenchfred]

This one works under the cap:

To Spurs:
De'Aron Fox
Cam Johnson

To Kings:
Devin Vassell
2025 ATL
2026 Spurs w/ ATL swap
Rip up 2031 swap with Sac

To Nets:
Jeremy Sochan
Zach Collins
2030 Best of Spurs/Mavs/Wolves (Mavs top 1 protected)

I would love it but why would Brooklyn do this trade?

[baseline bum]

I would love it but why would Brooklyn do this trade?

Cam is a little old for the timeline of a tanking team, Sochan is making a serious year three jump and is on their timeline, and a pick that's best of three is likely to be pretty good. I'd hate to lose Sochan but he can't be a core piece starting next to Fox and Castle. Alternatively the Spurs could trade them Castle but that looks like it would be an unforgivable mistake with the potential he is flashing right now.

[objective]

I would love it but why would Brooklyn do this trade?

Not my trade but Cam Johnson is turning 29 in a couple of months.

Getting a first that's the best of 3 teams AND Sochan?

That's a good deal for them

[Frenchfred]

Cam is a little old for the timeline of a tanking team, Sochan is making a serious year three jump and is on their timeline, and a pick that's best of three is likely to be pretty good. I'd hate to lose Sochan but he can't be a core piece starting next to Fox and Castle. Alternatively the Spurs could trade them Castle but that looks like it would be an unforgivable mistake with the potential he is flashing right now.

fair enough. Spurs would compete right away with Wemby, Fox, Castle and Cam. Castle would need to work his ass off this summer to improve his jumpshot and we would be light at the PF position.

[LeBowen]

No way Spurs trade Jeremy for Cam, they'd rather add another FRP.

[ginobilized]

The Trade Machine accepts this one:

SA: Fox/Cam Johnson

Sac: Vassell/Branham

BRKLYN: KJ/Cissoko

[Frenchfred]

The Trade Machine accepts this one:

SA: Fox/Cam Johnson

Sac: Vassell/Branham

BRKLYN: KJ/Cissoko

and how many picks?

[ginobilized]

and how many picks?

I say none, not sure my vote counts though

[baseline bum]

fair enough. Spurs would compete right away with Wemby, Fox, Castle and Cam. Castle would need to work his ass off this summer to improve his jumpshot and we would be light at the PF position.

Either Cam or HB would be the PF.

[baseline bum]

I say none, not sure my vote counts though

Sac would get better offers and Brooklyn would never trade a good player for a scrub plus a Shanghai Sharks level talent.

[baseline bum]

No way Spurs trade Jeremy for Cam, they'd rather add another FRP.

I don't really think Sochan would be putting up the 19 PER he currently has without Victor feeding him open layups and dunks all night and as much as he has improved it's not going to work with him starting with Castle and Fox long-term. CP3 is a good enough shooter that they wouldn't have to do it this year when he's starting instead of Castle but I figure might as well sell high on Sochan if he's not a long term piece. A Fox trade would definitely require a lot of roster reworking, but major roster overhaul is going to be necessary at some point anyways in the next couple of years to become a high end playoff team.

[100%duncan]

At the risk of sounding over reactionary… what I saw from Devin tonight against PHI might go a long way at answering some questions for me… I’m not ready to fully trade in my #LauriThread2025 membership for #TeamFox2025 gear… but my needle is pointing ever more slightly towards the Fox camp.

Will have fun posting some Fox trade scenarios a little later after the kids go to bed, which is past midnight for you Texans :lol
Quick turnaround for you there :lol

[SpursBills]

This one works under the cap:

To Spurs:
De'Aron Fox
Cam Johnson

To Kings:
Devin Vassell
2025 ATL
2026 Spurs w/ ATL swap
Rip up 2031 swap with Sac

To Nets:
Jeremy Sochan
Zach Collins
2030 Best of Spurs/Mavs/Wolves (Mavs top 1 protected)

I would probably do this trade as much as I'm a fan of Sochan, but it would leave you susceptible to big wings and on the boards. I assume you would probably start Fox/Castle/Champagnie/Johnson/Wembanyama. There are 1-2 guys in the draft this year available mid first who can reproduce a lot of what Sochan brings, so that would take a bit of the sting out of it if you can go get them. My preference is for Porter over Cam Johnson but he's most likely too expensive both from a salary and asset standpoint.

[spursistan]

I don't really think Sochan would be putting up the 19 PER he currently has without Victor feeding him open layups and dunks all night and as much as he has improved it's not going to work with him starting with Castle and Fox long-term. CP3 is a good enough shooter that they wouldn't have to do it this year when he's starting instead of Castle but I figure might as well sell high on Sochan if he's not a long term piece. A Fox trade would definitely require a lot of roster reworking, but major roster overhaul is going to be necessary at some point anyways in the next couple of years to become a high end playoff team.

Basically i' am already in 'everything (players + picks) but Wemby/Castle on the table' mode for next offseason. it is gonna really suck when Victor is playing at an MVP level next year but we just don't have the supporting cast to translate that to wins high enough for playoff seed in the cutthroat West..

[baseline bum]

I would probably do this trade as much as I'm a fan of Sochan, but it would leave you susceptible to big wings and on the boards. I assume you would probably start Fox/Castle/Champagnie/Johnson/Wembanyama. There are 1-2 guys in the draft this year available mid first who can reproduce a lot of what Sochan brings, so that would take a bit of the sting out of it if you can go get them. My preference is for Porter over Cam Johnson but he's most likely too expensive both from a salary and asset standpoint.

Porter's back is a ticking time bomb.

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/199301/do-not-want-dog.jpg

[ambchang]

Fox is someone I’d want. I would say he is ideal as him with CP3 would be a hard backcourt to play on D, and both need the ball on O.

That said I’d be willing to give uo Vassell, two good picks (not those Charlotte Chicago ones) and as many seconds/malaki/tre/zollins/KJ as they want.


Fox for Vassell will be a major upgrade on both O and D statistically, but the FO would have to do some major changes to the lineups to make things work.

I’d rather have markkenan.

[Jordan Jackson]

Spurs do need their “SGA” type of trade. I think this is probably the best they can do. Unless you want to sit around waiting for ANT - I’m giving that situation 3 years max. And yes Minny is in that kind of trouble.

Anyway - Kings can have anyone besides Castle (Wemby of course). My guess, Fox ends up in Houston.

[Pauleta14]

For those who want Fox, what’s your best package for him? Actually… give me two. One that sends out one of Devin or Castle, and one that keeps them both. Be realistic, homers.

As much as I (more and more) want Fox, there isn't a scenario where I send Castle tbh.

Wemby Castle and to a lesser degree Sochan (waiting the end of season to see if he can "mitigate" his limitations) are untouchable.

All the rest can go.

I'd also give up easily the lesser of ATL and our pick next summer, bc this draft doesn't look as good as expected past the lottery...

[rankingtear]

It is way too early to speculate , the noise is Klutch using SA for leverage to get Fox help at the deadline to earn an All-NBA nod for a supermax extension. I doubt Fox is moved at the deadline, they are more likely to be buyers.

[SpursBills]

Re Houston, I think that the only way that they beat a Spurs offer that includes Vassell is if they show willingness to include Tari Eason in a trade package. There's no way they're trading Amen Thompson or Sengun. Jalen Green is not going to get it done, and neither is Cam Whitmore or Reed Sheppard as Vassell is a more proven young player than any of those guys.

The tricky part of a Fox trade is that the spurs may be limited in going after other trades since they have to be able to open up max cap room in 2 years to remain a credible threat to sign away Fox as an UFA.

EDIT:
Also undoubtedly Kings fans and the Kings front office is probably going to try for a Mitchell like package - that was Markannen, Sexton, filler, 3 picks, and 2 swaps. But Fox is not as good as Mitchell was and the Kings are probably under more pressure to do the trade with the threat of Fox walking. Vassell has about the same value and possibly higher as Lauri's perception at the time before he blew up in Utah. Ideally 2 good picks with two swaps, would be enough to get it done.

[Davidicus]

I made the mistake of watching Fox highlights. I normally like to just watch games to get the good bad ugly, but highlights can be helpful to understand whats all in someone’s bag.


https://youtu.be/oLSVoHu-4pU?si=E-ah1zRAy4HsAqvm

And boy does he have a bag. Speed to blow by defenders for easy layups, or drawing contact at the rim to finish on glass against some of the best (AD, Giannis), and more interestingly sometimes the speed to just get to the paint and then finish with some euro dives or post moves, taking his time.

He has a mid range. He can dribble well with both hands. His catch and shoot 3 looks solid and comfortable. Passing is there, including drive to rim and laser out for 3. Of course with a nickname of Swipa, a lot of steals at the point for easy 2s, reminded me of DJM days.

Again, these are highlights, but pairing this kind of talent (at his age) is a no brainer. I like him more than Markannen because of his ability to create.


For those who want Fox, what’s your best package for him? Actually… give me two. One that sends out one of Devin or Castle, and one that keeps them both. Be realistic, homers.

- Vassell
- whatever Sactown is interested in most, I don’t care - any combo of Tre, KJ, Collins, Barnes, Blake, Branham. I’ll take whatever back to make the salaries work, a flyer on Huerter is a steal imo.
- best of ATL / SA 25.
- ATL 26 swap (this is what tips the scale vs HOU etc offers)
- SA 27
- 20131 cancel
- a bunch of SRPs, who cares

I hope that’s the deal that wins, because it will be a Kings ransom for this guy imo, even if he asks out.

[baseline bum]

- Vassell
- whatever Sactown is interested in most, I don’t care - any combo of Tre, KJ, Collins, Barnes, Blake, Branham. I’ll take whatever back to make the salaries work, a flyer on Huerter is a steal imo.
- best of ATL / SA 25.
- ATL 26 swap (this is what tips the scale vs HOU etc offers)
- SA 27
- 20131 cancel
- a bunch of SRPs, who cares

I hope that’s the deal that wins, because it will be a Kings ransom for this guy imo, even if he asks out.

Gotta also give the Spurs 26 pick for Sac to be able to use that swap I think

[KobesAchilles]

If all it took was Vassell, Jones and 2FRPs for Fox then you do that trade and don’t look back

[rankingtear]

I don't really think Sochan would be putting up the 19 PER he currently has without Victor feeding him open layups and dunks all night and as much as he has improved it's not going to work with him starting with Castle and Fox long-term. CP3 is a good enough shooter that they wouldn't have to do it this year when he's starting instead of Castle but I figure might as well sell high on Sochan if he's not a long term piece. A Fox trade would definitely require a lot of roster reworking, but major roster overhaul is going to be necessary at some point anyways in the next couple of years to become a high end playoff team.

Sochan and Champ are actually the two least dependent on Wemby players last year based on on off from pbstat something.

[baseline bum]

Sochan and Champ are actually the two least dependent on Wemby players last year based on on off from pbstat something.

I'd find that really hard to believe for this year though with how many wide open looks at the rim Wemby is getting him.

[LeBowen]

And boy does he have a bag. Speed to blow by defenders for easy layups, or drawing contact at the rim to finish on glass against some of the best (AD, Giannis), and more interestingly sometimes the speed to just get to the paint and then finish with some euro dives or post moves, taking his time.

Call me crazy, but he's the closest thing to Tony we have in the league today with his speed and ease of finishing at the rim.
Way taller and a better defender, too.

Also, noone mentioned it, but he never had a serious injury, played 147/164 games in past two seasons and hasn't missed one this season.

[Kevin]

Thinking way to far ahead about the Fox and Castle extensions.

Give Fox a front loaded 5 year 250M deal. If Castle becomes a star and needs big money they can then back load Castle's deal and keep the big three together for as long as possible.

On max deals you can have increases or decreases by 8% year over year so a front loaded Fox deal would look something like:

Year 1: 54M
Year 2: 54M
Year 3: 50M
Year 4: 46M
Year 5: 46M

Spurs need to take advantage of the last year of Wemby's rookie deal and the last two years of Castle's rookie deal.

[baseline bum]

Thinking way to far ahead about the Fox and Castle extensions.

Give Fox a front loaded 5 year 250M deal. If Castle becomes a star and needs big money they can then back load Castle's deal and keep the big three together for as long as possible.

On max deals you can have increases or decreases by 8% year over year so a front loaded Fox deal would look something like:

Year 1: 54M
Year 2: 54M
Year 3: 50M
Year 4: 46M
Year 5: 46M

Spurs need to take advantage of the last year of Wemby's rookie deal and the last two years of Castle's rookie deal.

Nah Fox is a max player and they won't be able to sign him for anything less than max. Max contracts are naturally backloaded since they have max raises. But with 10% annual bumps in the cap thanks to the streaming/TV deal it's not really much of a worry that his contract will blow up; in fact, it'll be cheaper and cheaper relative to the cap every year as long as those 10% bumps keep going, especially considering the raises to the cap are compounded while the raises players get on their contracts are not.

[LeBowen]

Nah Fox is a max player and they won't be able to sign him for anything less than max. Max contracts are naturally backloaded since they have max raises. But with 10% annual bumps in the cap thanks to the streaming/TV deal it's not really much of a worry that his contract will blow up; in fact, it'll be cheaper and cheaper relative to the cap every year as long as those 10% bumps keep going, especially considering the raises to the cap are compounded while the raises players get on their contracts are not.

https://i.imgur.com/EIXCJzG.png

Future cap projections, having two max players won't be an issue because every contender gets over the cap. Third max deal is where things get interesting.
If we get Fox, we'd still have $100M before we hit luxury tax when his and Wemby's max deals kick in.

[CGD]

Nah Fox is a max player and they won't be able to sign him for anything less than max. Max contracts are naturally backloaded since they have max raises. But with 10% annual bumps in the cap thanks to the streaming/TV deal it's not really much of a worry that his contract will blow up; in fact, it'll be cheaper and cheaper relative to the cap every year as long as those 10% bumps keep going, especially considering the raises to the cap are compounded while the raises players get on their contracts are not.

Thats what gives me the most pause. Do we seriously want to be paying Fox contracts that go into the 70Ms?

[baseline bum]

Thats what gives me the most pause. Do we seriously want to be paying Fox contracts that go into the 70Ms?

If in 26-27 Fox signs a five year max contract with max raises his final year would be $67 million. Sounds like a lot but the cap will be $249 million so it would be 27% of the cap. If he makes an all-NBA team in 25-26 and instead signs a supermax year 5 would be $78.6 million of a $249 million cap, so ~31.5% of the cap. So yes I'm not worried about even paying him nearly $80 million his final year much less $70 million. A 10% annual bump to the cap compounded takes all the sting out of max raises. We're talking linear growth (Fox's contract) vs multiplicative growth (the salary cap). E.g., as the number of years n gets larger the difference between (1+r)^n and 1+r*n gets larger. And to top it off the r in (1+r)^n is 10% (annual salary cap raise) while the r in 1+r*n is 8% (annual max salary raise), so it's really comparing 1.1^n vs 1+0.08*n.

[onechance87]

Thats what gives me the most pause. Do we seriously want to be paying Fox contracts that go into the 70Ms?

we gotta bring someone eventually.

[ginobilized]

I'd LOVE to see Fox on the Spurs, I'm just not convinced that the boneheads on this team could maximized having him. I don't see him making the rest of the team better. Admittedly, I'm a teacher by trade and see things through that lens. Until these players grow up a bit more, Fox might be an asset that is not being fully utilized. From Fox's perspective, he's in his prime NOW, we might not even be on his radar if he's seeking a change of scenery.

IF Fox wants to come here, like it's his 1st choice, then this is a different conversation. IF he's willing to do some financial sacrificing to be here, then HELL YES!
Fox/Castle would make for a solid backcourt, no doubt.

If Butler gets traded, I could see Fox going to Miami in a 3-team deal. SA is a tough sell if Miami is an option.

[baseline bum]

I'd LOVE to see Fox on the Spurs, I'm just not convinced that the boneheads on this team could maximized having him.

I think you're making a mistake in thinking this roster is going to be similar in a couple of years. There is likely to be tons of churn in this roster. The Spurs are a rebuilding team, not a playoff team looking to contend right now, and I would expect there are really only four players on this team that are safe right now: Wemby (obviously), CP3 (can't screw him over after he signed here), Castle (way too much potential to move for anything other than a superstar), and Champagnie (his value is way above his contract).

Also he's not taking a paycut, that's completely unrealistic, especially at a time every team is flush with money from the new TV/streaming deal. Fox is a max player and will be paid a max contract.

[exstatic]

I'd LOVE to see Fox on the Spurs, I'm just not convinced that the boneheads on this team could maximized having him. I don't see him making the rest of the team better. Admittedly, I'm a teacher by trade and see things through that lens. Until these players grow up a bit more, Fox might be an asset that is not being fully utilized. From Fox's perspective, he's in his prime NOW, we might not even be on his radar if he's seeking a change of scenery.

IF Fox wants to come here, like it's his 1st choice, then this is a different conversation. IF he's willing to do some financial sacrificing to be here, then HELL YES!
Fox/Castle would make for a solid backcourt, no doubt.

If Butler gets traded, I could see Fox going to Miami in a 3-team deal. SA is a tough sell if Miami is an option.

Ask Dame how that shit goes. Miami ain’t got shit for picks, which is why Dame is in Milwaukee.

[LeBowen]

If someone prefers another destination to playing with Wemby, then winning basketball games isn't their #1 priority and we don't need them.

[vy65]

https://i.imgur.com/EIXCJzG.png

Future cap projections, having two max players won't be an issue because every contender gets over the cap. Third max deal is where things get interesting.
If we get Fox, we'd still have $100M before we hit luxury tax when his and Wemby's max deals kick in.

A 364MM cap and a half-billion second apron is mind blowing.

[vy65]

If someone prefers another destination to playing with Wemby, then winning basketball games isn't their #1 priority and we don't need them.

Yea, but the issue is more what is SAC willing to do vs what does Fox want. Vecenie put a package of Reed/Whitmore/Adams/Green + a handful of FRP. That’s more palatable to SAC than Vessel + Zollins + Branham + several FRP. Fox being from HOU could be sold on going there vs SA.

[LeBowen]

Yea, but the issue is more what is SAC willing to do vs what does Fox want. Vecenie put a package of Reed/Whitmore/Adams/Green + a handful of FRP. That’s more palatable to SAC than Vessel + Zollins + Branham + several FRP. Fox being from HOU could be sold on going there vs SA.

We talked about it yesterday, that package is absolutely not better.
Both Reed and Whitmore are out of Rockets' rotation, Adams and Green are washed. It was Jeff Green, not Jalen in that offer.
Two Rockets FRPs that would be in the 20s because they'd add an all-star without losing any rotation pieces and one Phoenix pick that would be solid. Basically dumping their unwanted assets for an all-star.

Hawks picks are definitely more valuable even with Hawks treadmilling and Kings really want that swap back.
No way we dump Collins on them, it would be Devin and Tre, most likely. Tre is also a solid player and would be useful for them.

If Kings are looking to keep competing after trading Fox, then Spurs offer is way better.
They could even try and get let's say Hunter with those Hawks picks.

[RC_Drunkford]

Fox is also from Texas and his wife went to high school in San Antonio

[z0sa]

I'm 100% onboard as long as we don't lose Vassell. I've called it for years, plural, now: Vassell will be the best 3rd option in the League when we are winning title(s).

[ginobilized]

I think you're making a mistake in thinking this roster is going to be similar in a couple of years. There is likely to be tons of churn in this roster. The Spurs are a rebuilding team, not a playoff team looking to contend right now, and I would expect there are really only four players on this team that are safe right now: Wemby (obviously), CP3 (can't screw him over after he signed here), Castle (way too much potential to move for anything other than a superstar), and Champagnie (his value is way above his contract).

Also he's not taking a paycut, that's completely unrealistic, especially at a time every team is flush with money from the new TV/streaming deal. Fox is a max player and will be paid a max contract.

I do hope that I'm making a mistake here.

Making the move now just doesn't feel like a Spurs-type move. To my knowledge, it still needs to pass through the gauntlet named Gregg Popovich. I'd love to see it happen, though.

Has anyone coined the term Empty Vassell? Throwing it out there.

[KingKev]

Fox is also from Texas and his wife went to high school in San Antonio

This could work both ways. She may wanna stay the fk from round here. Especially when you have dough.

[ginobilized]

Ask Dame how that shit goes. Miami ain’t got shit for picks, which is why Dame is in Milwaukee.

Can you give me his phone number? I'll give him a call when I have some free time.

[rankingtear]

The only one time all star im trading for is Markannen. There is so many question with a Fox trade. Fit with Castle and fit with Wemby and fit with Sochan. Markannen just slot into that 3 spot. Smells like a Dame and DJ trade to me.

[scott]

It is way too early to speculate , the noise is Klutch using SA for leverage to get Fox help at the deadline to earn an All-NBA nod for a supermax extension. I doubt Fox is moved at the deadline, they are more likely to be buyers.

Not sure what you mean here... I don't think being involved in trade rumors is going to result in a player earning more All NBA votes...?

[scott]

If in 26-27 Fox signs a five year max contract with max raises his final year would be $67 million. Sounds like a lot but the cap will be $249 million so it would be 27% of the cap. If he makes an all-NBA team in 25-26 and instead signs a supermax year 5 would be $78.6 million of a $249 million cap, so ~31.5% of the cap. So yes I'm not worried about even paying him nearly $80 million his final year much less $70 million. A 10% annual bump to the cap compounded takes all the sting out of max raises. We're talking linear growth (Fox's contract) vs multiplicative growth (the salary cap). E.g., as the number of years n gets larger the difference between (1+r)^n and 1+r*n gets larger. And to top it off the r in (1+r)^n is 10% (annual salary cap raise) while the r in 1+r*n is 8% (annual max salary raise), so it's really comparing 1.1^n vs 1+0.08*n.

This is one reason why trading for him now, as opposed to the summer, might make sense.

If you trade for him now, you can extend him in the summer for a regular max (whether or not he signs that or wants to roll the dice is another question).

If you trade for him in the summer, you have a 6 month waiting period to extend him (IIRC from the Lauri discussions), and he'll have a good sense of whether or not he's on track for All-NBA and a SuperMax.

For the reasons you laid out, neither should really be too big of a concern, but you'd love to save that 5% of the cap if you can.

[onechance87]

It is way too early to speculate , the noise is Klutch using SA for leverage to get Fox help at the deadline to earn an All-NBA nod for a supermax extension. I doubt Fox is moved at the deadline, they are more likely to be buyers.

the noise started even before the season started.He let his feelings be known his priority is to win.

[scott]

A 364MM cap and a half-billion second apron is mind blowing.

The $33MM MLE is wild

[scott]

This could work both ways. She may wanna stay the fk from round here. Especially when you have dough.

Overlooked point. I too am from San Antonio, and there is a zero percent chance I'd voluntarily move back to shithole Texas :lol

[Seventyniner]

I thought Fox getting traded would stop him from getting a supermax at all, like with Number Two. Is that still the case?

[baseline bum]

I thought Fox getting traded would stop him from getting a supermax at all, like with Number Two. Is that still the case?

He has to make an All-NBA team to be supermax eligible. I do think he'd make it if he's here next year.

[scott]

We talked about it yesterday, that package is absolutely not better.
Both Reed and Whitmore are out of Rockets' rotation, Adams and Green are washed. It was Jeff Green, not Jalen in that offer.
Two Rockets FRPs that would be in the 20s because they'd add an all-star without losing any rotation pieces and one Phoenix pick that would be solid. Basically dumping their unwanted assets for an all-star.

Hawks picks are definitely more valuable even with Hawks treadmilling and Kings really want that swap back.
No way we dump Collins on them, it would be Devin and Tre, most likely. Tre is also a solid player and would be useful for them.

If Kings are looking to keep competing after trading Fox, then Spurs offer is way better.
They could even try and get let's say Hunter with those Hawks picks.

Let's compare.

Vassell is a vastly superior player to Whitmore, but Cam is in the second year of a 4/16 deal whereas Vassell is in the first year of a 5/135. Kings are currently hard capped at the first apron, and may value getting more cap flexibility with the "promising young player". However, Advantage Spurs.

Reed is a vastly superior prospect to Tre Jones. Tre is an expiring, and even if he were useful to SAC this season, he wouldn't be there next year. He's just an expiring salary filler. Advantage Rockets.

Adams and Green are just expiring salary filler. No need to think about them as anything else. No advantage to either team here.

Picks:

Spurs best picks to offer are best of ATL/SA 25, 26, 27. After that, I'd say best of DAL/MIN/SA 2030 and then Best of SA/SAC 31 and MIN 31.

Rockets have PHX 27 Unprotected which is pretty juicy, best of HOU/BKN 27, and Best of DAL/PHX 29. If they put those three on the table, accounting for natural variance I'd say those are just about as good as SA's. Where we have the advantage is we can offer the better pick in 25 and 26 if a quicker pick were a priority to SAC.

If it comes down to Vassell + filler versus Cam/Reed + filler, and the picks are a wash, it will depend on whether or not SAC wants Devin's long term salary. It also depends on whether SAC views this as a rebuild or a retool. If they are rebuilding completely, they won't want Devin's salary and age versus Reed/Cam. If they are retooling, it more than likely favors the Spurs.

The two teams competing offers are closers than most Spurs fans would want to admit, IMO.

[Ice009]

Fox is also from Texas and his wife went to high school in San Antonio

Wow, didn't know that. Sounds like a great fit then both on the court and off the court.

[baseline bum]

Overlooked point. I too am from San Antonio, and there is a zero percent chance I'd voluntarily move back to shithole Texas :lol

Come on, we only had 27 days of 100+ this year. Though missed having one in mid October by 1 degree. :lol

LOL Christmas Eve and the trees still have half their leaves. I remember when they used to lose all their leaves in November instead of January.

[vy65]

Let's compare.

Vassell is a vastly superior player to Whitmore, but Cam is in the second year of a 4/16 deal whereas Vassell is in the first year of a 5/135. Kings are currently hard capped at the first apron, and may value getting more cap flexibility with the "promising young player". However, Advantage Spurs.

Reed is a vastly superior prospect to Tre Jones. Tre is an expiring, and even if he were useful to SAC this season, he wouldn't be there next year. He's just an expiring salary filler. Advantage Rockets.

Adams and Green are just expiring salary filler. No need to think about them as anything else. No advantage to either team here.

Picks:

Spurs best picks to offer are best of ATL/SA 25, 26, 27. After that, I'd say best of DAL/MIN/SA 2030 and then Best of SA/SAC 31 and MIN 31.

Rockets have PHX 27 Unprotected which is pretty juicy, best of HOU/BKN 27, and Best of DAL/PHX 29. If they put those three on the table, accounting for natural variance I'd say those are just about as good as SA's. Where we have the advantage is we can offer the better pick in 25 and 26 if a quicker pick were a priority to SAC.

If it comes down to Vassell + filler versus Cam/Reed + filler, and the picks are a wash, it will depend on whether or not SAC wants Devin's long term salary. It also depends on whether SAC views this as a rebuild or a retool. If they are rebuilding completely, they won't want Devin's salary and age versus Reed/Cam. If they are retooling, it more than likely favors the Spurs.

The two teams competing offers are closers than most Spurs fans would want to admit, IMO.

Excellent post. The only thing to add is that a retool vs a rebuild seems more like given that they have Sabonis/DD/Murray (who’s having a rough year)/Monk. There could be a mass firesale, but that doesn’t seem likely to me