If the Spurs draft 11th

[Degoat]

I don’t know if it’s been discussed but the lottery selection got moved up 5 days it’s gonna be on august 20th now

[Dejounte]

15th, at best. 14 is still a lottery pick.

I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it.

Why would it go lower than 15th?

[Dejounte]

So we have 17 players at the moment, including the two ways (Eubanks and Q)

Eubanks is on his last 2 way since it is for two years max

Plus the two draft picks

So we cant assume we are bringing back all our free agents, right? (Beli being the obvious odd man out)

We are over capacity...there would have to be a trade.

[Chinook]

Why would it go lower than 15th?

The Magic or Wizards can get 15.

[Dejounte]

The Magic or Wizards can get 15.

I see. So worst case is 16th

[cd021]

So we have 17 players at the moment, including the two ways (Eubanks and Q)

Eubanks is on his last 2 way since it is for two years max

Plus the two draft picks

So we cant assume we are bringing back all our free agents, right? (Beli being the obvious odd man out)

We are over capacity...there would have to be a trade.

Murray, White, Walker, DDR, LMA, Lyles, KJ, Luka, Gay, Mills, 1st round pick, Jakob=12

Beli seems unlikely to return.

Forbes probably 50/50

Metu is cheap and improving but still a 4th string center so probably not.

Zeller- Not returning

Eubanks could be signed to an deal with the Spurs

Q will likely be back on a two-way deal


The 41st pick will likely be signed to a two-way deal so the Spurs should have either 1 or 2 roster spots free.

[bluebellmaniac]

I don’t know if it’s been discussed but the lottery selection got moved up 5 days it’s gonna be on august 20th now

Crap, I had Googled the lottery date and it said the 25th still.

21 days til the lottery!

[spurs50_]

I started looking forward to the Lottery when I realized Popovich was keeping Forbes in the starting lineup.

[exstatic]

I see. So worst case is 16th

17th. Hypothetically, we could make the playoffs, and pass both of them.

[TXstbobcat]

I started looking forward to the Lottery when I realized Popovich was keeping Forbes in the starting lineup.

Forbes out tomorrow Night against the Kings.

[ace3g]

Spurs also need a SF that is comfortable in the post - sometimes you need to run the offense in the post depending on the flow of the game.

[Dejounte]

Spurs also need a SF that is comfortable in the post - sometimes you need to run the offense in the post depending on the flow of the game.

Why does it have to be a SF? We have Aldridge. Though I guess the problem with Aldridge is he has only one speed....

[ace3g]

We need someone that can run offense both on the perimeter and post - preferably a SF.

[Dejounte]

We need someone that can run offense both on the perimeter and post - preferably a SF.

On what basis though? Because championships are won that way? Is it though? In this era? With exception to Raptors last year.

[ace3g]

And by running the offense I mean part of their offensive skill set - they can transition to the post throughout the game. Sure it can be a mobile PF as well. Spurs did it in 2014 -2016 with Kawhi/Diaw, I would use #OperationPostUp all the time.

IMO just an added wrinkle when a primary perimeter player has a back to basket game.

[Dejounte]

Someone eventually needs to replace Aldridge. I think it should be Daniel Oturu with our 2nd round pick. Literally the only player in the draft with a post game.

[Mal]

Trade it for Rudy Gobbert

[spurspl]

Trade it for Rudy Gobbert

gobert, royce oneal 1st pick for lma 1st pick

recently im wondering bout trading down in a draft bc there are more pf/c than in the middle of draft. We are stuck with guards and keldon seems to be a decent starter at SF so maybe thats a solution.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

Someone eventually needs to replace Aldridge. I think it should be Daniel Oturu with our 2nd round pick. Literally the only player in the draft with a post game.


I doubt he drops that far in the draft even if we pick in the early 40’s for the 2nd round

[cd021]

gobert, royce oneal 1st pick for lma 1st pick

recently im wondering bout trading down in a draft bc there are more pf/c than in the middle of draft. We are stuck with guards and keldon seems to be a decent starter at SF so maybe that's a solution.
I've looked into it already, its not really worth it. The only other team with multiple 1sts is Boston. 17 and 26 isn't worth trading down from 11 tbh.

If anything, they need to be looking to trade up.

[Dejounte]

My big board for the Spurs draft... Tyler Bey rises and Precious drops a bit.

tier 1

deni
onyeka
obi

tier 2

tyler bey
precious achiuwa
patrick williams
reggie perry

tier 3

jalen smith
paul reed
daniel oturu
xavier tillman

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/NTFJ9jbwyTU

I can see him playing the 4 for us in that Rudy Gay role.

[Prime BEEF]

My big board for the Spurs draft... Tyler Bey rises and Precious drops a bit.

tier 1

deni
onyeka
obi

tier 2

tyler bey
precious achiuwa
patrick williams
reggie perry

tier 3

jalen smith
paul reed
daniel oturu
xavier tillman
If the top tier guys aren’t available, Tyler Bey is a solid pickup

[TD 21]

If White maintains the aggressiveness and confidence he's shown recently, I wouldn't trade him. If they are going to look to package him with 11 to attempt to move up to 5 though, that should be the extent of the offer.

[Degoat]

Not saying we should do this but I wonder if the nets would trade jarret Allen for the 11th pick. Next season with KD and Kylie being healthy most likely they’ll want deandre Jordan on the court with them

[spurspl]

does anyone know the personality of those young guys in this draft? who fits the best in a spurs requirements? i mean whos humble, loyal and its not an "alpha" male?

[lmbebo]

Wondering if they target another PG with aims of moving Murray. He's got skills, but hasn't shown much of being a point guard.

[Dejounte]

Wondering if they target another PG with aims of moving Murray. He's got skills, but hasn't shown much of being a point guard.

As Pop said today... There are no point guards on this team, there are perimeter players. I think the whole system is now built around this idea. I dont think they are trying to have an actual point guard for this team.

[BackHome]

In theory I like that but In order for that to work you need the beautiful game all players must be able to have good handles and good court vision and the ability to take it to the rim or pop from the outside. And yeah all of them need to be 6’6 and taller.

[Dejounte]

In theory I like that but In order for that to work you need the beautiful game all players must be able to have good handles and good court vision and the ability to take it to the rim or pop from the outside. And yeah all of them need to be 6’6 and taller.

Why? The shorter you are the quicker you are. Height isn't everything when you consider the factors. Plus, decent ball handling by taller players gets worse and are more rare to come by. Trust me, im almost obsessed with us getting a player thats taller this offseason but im not for replacing ALL our players with tall ones.

[Ocotillo]

As Pop said today... There are no point guards on this team, there are perimeter players. I think the whole system is now built around this idea. I dont think they are trying to have an actual point guard for this team.
I saw that Pop quote, paraphrasing what Rumsfeld said back in the day, you to war with the army you have, not the one you want. In other words, this is what it is. If a an excellent point guard is the best player available at 11 I would imagine they would take him and the philosophy changes if the draftee is ready to play year one.

[John B]

I would love if Obi Toppin would fall or we trade up for him.

[spurspl]

I would love if Obi Toppin would fall or we trade up for him.

agree, hes already ready to be a starting PF and we need a guy like him. But im worry if hes a guy with a character that fits to spurs organization. Maybe im wrong bc i dont know him but he looks like a guy that want to play like he wants to, not like the coach wants etc.

[John B]

agree, hes already ready to be a starting PF and we need a guy like him. But imo hes not a guy with a character that fits to spurs organization. Maybe im wrong bc i dont know him but he looks like a guy that want to play like he wants to, not like the coach wants etc.
With Aldridge eyeing a comeback tour with Lillard, plus Toppin would be great running with our athletic young core. Please I’d give Bryn, Metu, Samanic, and throw in Patty to sweeten the deal

[bluebellmaniac]

If we win tonight, we need to be looking at the possibility of having a lower pick. Playoffs baby...

[BackHome]

I think we going to pick between 12 and 14 so if those numbers hold true I am looking at the following:

1ST Round
* Kira Lewis PG 6’3
* Aleksej Pokusevski PF 7’0
* Patrick Williams SF/PF 6’8
*Saddiq Bey SF 6’8

2ND Round
* Killian Tillie PF 6’10
* Jordan Nwora SF 6’8
* Mamadi Diakite PF 6’9

I would love and try and trade Rudy for a late first round and pick one of the following:

* Jalen Smith C 6,10
* Reggie Perry C 6,10
* Daniel Otoru 6,10
*Xavier Tillman C 6’10

[Degoat]

Just to clarify... Are odds are at the 11th pick unless we make the playoffs right?

[DPG21920]

Just to clarify... Are odds are at the 11th pick unless we make the playoffs right?

Correct

[duncan2150]

I don't understand, if we don't make the PO we'll have the 11th pick odds ?

[Degoat]

I don't understand, if we don't make the PO we'll have the 11th pick odds ?

I think for the lottery odds, all that matters is the games played pre-league shut down unless we make the playoffs then are odds change

[duncan2150]

Ok thanks so it would be the 11th pick odds or 15th to 17th if we make the PO.

[exstatic]

I think we going to pick between 12 and 14 so if those numbers hold true I am looking at the following:

1ST Round
* Kira Lewis PG 6’3
* Aleksej Pokusevski PF 7’0
* Patrick Williams SF/PF 6’8
*Saddiq Bey SF 6’8

2ND Round
* Killian Tillie PF 6’10
* Jordan Nwora SF 6’8
* Mamadi Diakite PF 6’9

I would love and try and trade Rudy for a late first round and pick one of the following:

* Jalen Smith C 6,10
* Reggie Perry C 6,10
* Daniel Otoru 6,10
*Xavier Tillman C 6’10


It’s almost impossible for us to pick at 12, and actually impossible to pick at 13 or 14. The draft positions were set March 11. Nothing that happens in Orlando will affect it, unless we actually make the playoffs. We could win seven games, get into the playin, win the first game against MEM, drop the second and just miss the playoff, and we go into the lottery at #11.

[playblair]

does anyone know the personality of those young guys in this draft? who fits the best in a spurs requirements? i mean whos humble, loyal and its not an "alpha" male?
fook that nice boi ish give me someone with personality like keldon johnson

[BillMc]

. We could win seven games, get into the playin, win the first game against MEM, drop the second and just miss the playoff, and we go into the lottery at #11.

That'd almost be the best case scenario. Most experience for our young guys and best pick possible.

That said, the fan in me still wants to see us make the playoffs and extend the streak. Though being swept by the Lakers (who do we have that can handle their bigs or LBJ?) somewhat counter balances that.

[Darius Bieber]

does anyone know the personality of those young guys in this draft? who fits the best in a spurs requirements? i mean whos humble, loyal and its not an "alpha" male?

The most "Spurs" type of player in the first round would have to be Haliburton but he's gonna go earlier in the draft than our position most likely.

[objective]

does anyone know the personality of those young guys in this draft? who fits the best in a spurs requirements? i mean whos humble, loyal and its not an "alpha" male?

Patrick Williams was a pretty big recruit who had his choice of a number of schools and when asked why he chose Florida State under Leonard Hamilton he replied that he wanted to learn how to play defense.

He also came off the bench the whole season when he probably could have had a guaranteed starting role anywhere else.

Seems to me to be the kind of guy who's 'over himself' and puts the team first in Spurs logic

[spurspl]

Patrick Williams was a pretty big recruit who had his choice of a number of schools and when asked why he chose Florida State under Leonard Hamilton he replied that he wanted to learn how to play defense.

He also came off the bench the whole season when he probably could have had a guaranteed starting role anywhere else.

Seems to me to be the kind of guy who's 'over himself' and puts the team first in Spurs logic

thats a good sign that there is a big fella with this kind of personality

[4lifecowboy]

If we are in the lottery, we get pingpong for the top 3 picks right?

[BatManu20]

Time to look forward to the draft. Spurs need to hit a home run with this pick cause this team is devoid of talent big time right now.

We need a viable big and an athletic Forward badly.

[spurspl]

Time to look forward to the draft. Spurs need to hit a home run with this pick cause this team is devoid of talent big time right now.

We need a viable big and an athletic Forward badly.

agree, trade up for obi or trade down for willims/reed/smith
or just hope that we can somehow sign andre drummond in FA

[Kurgan]

I was against drafting a big before but I've changed my mind. Poodle is hopeless and LMA is ancient.

[B1gduff]

Looking at how the guys are playing and growing during the restart, lonnie can play sg, Murray and white can play either pg/sg, Demar and Keldon (espically Keldon) can play sf. But, We lack size at pf and C. We also a lack big body that can faster and stronger pf/sf. In our range (10-15), their are guys that fill this bill.

I wouldn't mind going after Pokusevski and Achiuwa.
Still up in the hair with Williams, don't if he be quiz enough to guard smaller player or faster player.

[Dejounte]

Deni Avdija will turn this whole thing around. Praying we win the lottery

[BackHome]

Looking at this team after season with only people we should keep:

PG: White, Weatherspoon
SG: DEROZZ, Murray, Mills
SF: Keldon
PF: Luka, Lyles
C: Eubanks

Trades:
1. Rudy is a good guy I think he could really help a team like Boston, Nets, Miami, or Philly - He should be able to get us a possible mid to late first round player.

2. Poodle ok he is hot or cold if he comes on cheap then Ok but I am more inclined to Sign and trade him again I think he fits in with the right team he should net us a mid to late first.

3.LMA - Only has one year left don’t want to take on shitty contracts just to move him but if Portland is in win now mode which I think they should be then I would do a trade but would have to get there 14th pick and NOT Whiteside.

4.Derozz I am Ok with him staying another year he puts up numbers and helps win games but I would be open to trades.

If we moved all 4 get two first this upcoming draft and 2 first next draft.

Metu and Forbes good luck somewhere else.

[r0drig0lac]

Rudy is a good guy I think he could really help a team like Boston, Nets, Miami, or Philly - He should be able to get us a possible mid to late first round player.


Randle would be my target with his contract

[J_Paco]

Looking at this team after season with only people we should keep:

PG: White, Weatherspoon
SG: DEROZZ, Murray, Mills
SF: Keldon
PF: Luka, Lyles
C: Eubanks

Trades:
1. Rudy is a good guy I think he could really help a team like Boston, Nets, Miami, or Philly - He should be able to get us a possible mid to late first round player.

2. Poodle ok he is hot or cold if he comes on cheap then Ok but I am more inclined to Sign and trade him again I think he fits in with the right team he should net us a mid to late first.

3.LMA - Only has one year left don’t want to take on shitty contracts just to move him but if Portland is in win now mode which I think they should be then I would do a trade but would have to get there 14th pick and NOT Whiteside.

4.Derozz I am Ok with him staying another year he puts up numbers and helps win games but I would be open to trades.

Metu and Forbes good luck somewhere else.

You completely left out Walker IV in your assessment of the roster. I doubt the team moves that many pieces, but freeing up a rotational spot for a youngster or lottery pick (if Pop plays them) would be great.

[Thomas82]

Time to look forward to the draft. Spurs need to hit a home run with this pick cause this team is devoid of talent big time right now.

We need a viable big and an athletic Forward badly.


agree, trade up for obi or trade down for willims/reed/smith
or just hope that we can somehow sign andre drummond in FA

I personally want us to somehow get James Wiseman.

[BackHome]

Looking at how the guys are playing and growing during the restart, lonnie can play sg, Murray and white can play either pg/sg, Demar and Keldon (espically Keldon) can play sf. But, We lack size at pf and C. We also a lack big body that can faster and stronger pf/sf. In our range (10-15), their are guys that fill this bill.

I wouldn't mind going after Pokusevski and Achiuwa.
Still up in the hair with Williams, don't if he be quiz enough to guard smaller player or faster player.

Hopefully we get lucky and strike gold in this years draft and have a chance at Avdija , Okoro, Okongwu, or Obi “Praying To Ping Pong Balls”. If we stay at 11 then go for Vassell, Bey, or Williams.

Hopefully we can work out a trade and net another first rounder I really like Aleksej but he is really skinny and has narrow shoulders. But then I watched some old tape of Durant who was skinny around 6’10 Ht and 210 WGT - People laughed at him when he was the only player who could not do one 180pd bench press. Not saying they the same player but Alex has really good handles and is able to handle then all and good passer with decent outside shooting. Also he is not scarred to put his nose on defense as he is a pretty good rebounder. Another guy that I think will move up in draft that I like would be Center Daniel Orturu.

[Dejounte]

Obi Toppin dropped to 10th in latest tankathon mock. The Spurs worked him out last year before he decided To go back to school. Im not convinced hes the best fit on our team solely because hes not a great defender. But if our team needs to depend on fresh blood for offense, then he is the guy I suppose. He is a bonafide scorer.

[Sugus]

Does anyone know how the % chance of slipping into a top-4 pick changes if the Suns get into the playoffs, overtaking us and getting us the 10th pick? It's starting to become more and more likely - I don't know if I trust the current Spurs team to not drop any other games, the Suns are scorching, and we could really use a better pick more than a spanking from the Lakers in the first round. I'm hoping for Deni or Toppin if we move into top 4, or Achiuwa if we stay at 10-11th.

[Russ]

Trades:

1. Rudy is a good guy I think he could really help a team like Boston, Nets, Miami, or Philly - He should be able to get us a possible mid to late first round player.

I'll have some of that too.

[BatManu20]

I personally want us to somehow get James Wiseman.

Well yea that’s the dream lol. But Wiseman’s a top-3 pick and Spurs will be picking at 10 or 11

[bluebellmaniac]

Just over 14 days until the lottery. Strike gold again for another great center in Wiseman.

[slick'81]

Just over 14 days until the lottery. Strike gold again for another great center in Wiseman.


We all should start praying

[DAF86]

What's all this center talk? Lay down the pipe sons. :lol

We need a forward, then another forward. And another one in top of that just in case.

Get me some lanky ass mofos that can cover up that court.

[DAF86]

I mean, most centers don't even see the floor in crunch time anymore. Remember these words when it's either Anthony Davis or Marcus Morris vs Giannis at center in clutch time of the finals.

[ace3g]

I really like Aleksej but he is really skinny and has narrow shoulders. But then I watched some old tape of Durant who was skinny around 6’10 Ht and 210 WGT - People laughed at him when he was the only player who could not do one 180pd bench press. Not saying they the same player but Alex has really good handles and is able to handle then all and good passer with decent outside shooting. Also he is not scarred to put his nose on defense as he is a pretty good rebounder. Another guy that I think will move up in draft that I like would be Center Daniel Orturu.

+1

He passes my eye test with his offensive /defensive instincts on the court.

https://twitter.com/olympiacosbc/status/1290947895169089536

[Thomas82]

Well yea that’s the dream lol. But Wiseman’s a top-3 pick and Spurs will be picking at 10 or 11

I actually saw a mock back in June that had him falling to us at 11. I'm hoping we get lucky enough to be able to draft him or even trade up if possible.

[duncan2150]

I was against drafting a big before but I've changed my mind. Poodle is hopeless and LMA is ancient.


I'm for a big since last year, not necessary a five but a 4/5 who can protect the rim and gives us some presence inside.

If we are 11 i'm for achiuwa, mobile, good D and improving offensive player.

Other players but who are out of reach normally : wiseman( a dream lol) okongwu and then you have Toppin or avdija who are more modern 4's.

[exstatic]

If we are in the lottery, we get pingpong for the top 3 picks right?

They changed the rules last year. It's now the top FOUR picks, which gives us better odds. Last year, 3 teams outside the top four jumped into the top four.

[Dejounte]

Roughly a 2% chance to move up from 11th seed and a 3% chance to move up from 10th

[ragas]

Roughly a 2% chance to move up from 11th seed and a 3% chance to move up from 10th

https://media1.giphy.com/media/ToMjGpKniGqRNLGBrhu/200.gif

[bluebellmaniac]

+1

He passes my eye test with his offensive /defensive instincts on the court.

https://twitter.com/olympiacosbc/status/1290947895169089536

He's benching about 145 lbs. Dude better start juicing...

[exstatic]

Does anyone know how the % chance of slipping into a top-4 pick changes if the Suns get into the playoffs, overtaking us and getting us the 10th pick? It's starting to become more and more likely - I don't know if I trust the current Spurs team to not drop any other games, the Suns are scorching, and we could really use a better pick more than a spanking from the Lakers in the first round. I'm hoping for Deni or Toppin if we move into top 4, or Achiuwa if we stay at 10-11th.

Unless the Suns actually MAKE the playoffs, their position won't change.

SHORT OF TEAMS DROPPING OUT OF OR PLAYING INTO THE PLAYOFFS, NOTHING IN ORLANDO AFFECTS DRAFT POSITION.

[BackHome]

I am surprised how good the Suns are playing right now.

[spurspl]

I am surprised how good the Suns are playing right now.

im not. they have a decent players. they will be much better.

[Dejounte]

Jordan Nwora and Isaiah Stewart are added on my radar

Isaiah looks like a Klay Thompson. Wouldnt solve our defensive issues but having a sharp shooter like that would be nice. Doesnt look like a stiff like Bertans, but more of a natural shooter like Klay

Isaiah is big and wide and would probably be great on defense. Cant shoot 3s though but if we want to be tougher, hes an option alongside Precious

[spurspl]

Jordan Nwora and Isaiah Stewart are added on my radar

Isaiah looks like a Klay Thompson. Wouldnt solve our defensive issues but having a sharp shooter like that would be nice. Doesnt look like a stiff like Bertans, but more of a natural shooter like Klay

Isaiah is big and wide and would probably be great on defense. Cant shoot 3s though but if we want to be tougher, hes an option alongside Precious

yup, nwora could be a steal of the 2nd round

[Degoat]

If the suns some how make the playoffs that would be awesome lol never thought I’d root for the suns to win

[Sugus]

Unless the Suns actually MAKE the playoffs, their position won't change.

SHORT OF TEAMS DROPPING OUT OF OR PLAYING INTO THE PLAYOFFS, NOTHING IN ORLANDO AFFECTS DRAFT POSITION.

Yeah, that's why I asked Does anyone know how the % chance of slipping into a top-4 pick changes if the Suns get into the playoffs?. I'm aware we stay at 11 if they don't make it.

[Dejounte]

Yeah, that's why I asked Does anyone know how the % chance of slipping into a top-4 pick changes if the Suns get into the playoffs?. I'm aware we stay at 11 if they don't make it.

3% instead 2%

[Sugus]

3% instead 2%

I'm whelmed. But it's better than 2%.

[BackHome]

Just start thinking LUCKY ��

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/cC04PlZ6cOo

Stewart was bullying Tyler Bey in this video

WE NEED MORE BULLY BALL

No more skinny players please

He also has a 7'4" wingspan

Also he is one of the youngest players in the draft, if not the youngest

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/AWGV7Fj_Rxw

Another interesting prospect.

Reminds me of Jokic. Seems to possess good feel for the game

[spurspl]

https://youtu.be/AWGV7Fj_Rxw

Another interesting prospect.

Reminds me of Jokic. Seems to possess good feel for the game

agree i looked at him couple of days ago. Looks pretty good

[exstatic]

3% instead 2%

That’s the top spot, only.

At 11, we have a 9.4% chance of top 4. The 10 slot has a 13.9% chance of top 4.

[TXstbobcat]

Suns won again today. Gives us a shot at the 10 spot.

[Chinook]

https://youtu.be/AWGV7Fj_Rxw

Another interesting prospect.

Reminds me of Jokic. Seems to possess good feel for the game

I'd just assumed you were talking about a PF. So I was getting annoyed watching the highlights, thinking "This guy looks slow and has no outside game. He'd be a decent center prospect but wouldn't be a forward at all." Then I looked him up and saw he was a center, and all's good again. He's fine. Like if the Spurs got a late-first somehow, I'd be down for drafting him and letting Tim and LMA develop him for a year. He's not my favorite five prospect in the draft, but I'd be happy that box was checked off at least.

[look_at_g_shred]

Top 3 Wishlist:
Killian
Pat Williams
Precious

[C-Dub]

Whomever the Spurs pick in the 2st round will be in the G-league for at least a season and a half and not make any true impact with the main squad. I'm not saying it should be that way but most of us Spurs fans are aware that it's going to be that way.

[TD 21]

Whomever the Spurs pick in the 2st round will be in the G-league for at least a season and a half and not make any true impact with the main squad. I'm not saying it should be that way but most of us Spurs fans are aware that it's going to be that way.

Depends on who they pick. My sense is if they stick at 11 and the draft more or less plays out to projections, they go with Bey; who's about as plug and play as it get's.

He'd be an unspectacular pick that high, but theoretically fill a 3 year need of a 3.5 who can shoot and at least be a non liability defensively.

[duncan2150]

Depends on who they pick. My sense is if they stick at 11 and the draft more or less plays out to projections, they go with Bey; who's about as plug and play as it get's.

He'd be an unspectacular pick that high, but theoretically fill a 3 year need of a 3.5 who can shoot and at least be a non liability defensively.

You talk about saddiq Bey I think. He could be a solid pick imo, he improves a lot this year with Villanova.
I like him.

[Chinook]

Just started looking at players. It's gotta be Toppin. Trade up if you need to. It's gotta be him. He's one of the ubers this year. Thinking he'll fall because of his age, so there's a good chance he's there between 7 and 11. Make the move.

[Dejounte]

Just started looking at players. It's gotta be Toppin. Trade up if you need to. It's gotta be him. He's one of the ubers this year. Thinking he'll fall because of his age, so there's a good chance he's there between 7 and 11. Make the move.

His defense is a concern but he's 3rd on my list of players i really want

[FutureMan]

At the rate this team turns the ball over. I’ll take anyone who doesn’t haha

EDIT: unless either DeRozan or Murray aren’t on the roster next year.

[Dejounte]

Toppin is one of those players who Pop will test to see if they can do anything other than score, and I'm not too confident he will pass... Other than that, it's not dumb to project him as a legit scorer in the mold of Amare Stoudamire.

[Chinook]

Toppin is one of those players who Pop will test to see if they can do anything other than score, and I'm not too confident he will pass... Other than that, it's not dumb to project him as a legit scorer in the mold of Amare Stoudamire.

He needs to rebound better, but besides that, he's big, strong and athletic enough to where he can be a plus defender. He'd have to get better at passing to be a true first option, but if defensive potential with elite offensive skills was enough to get Walker drafted, it's enough for Toppin. He looks like an in-shape Zion.

[Dejounte]

He needs to rebound better, but besides that, he's big, strong and athletic enough to where he can be a plus defender. He'd have to get better at passing to be a true first option, but if defensive potential with elite offensive skills was enough to get Walker drafted, it's enough for Toppin. He looks like an in-shape Zion.

I wouldnt say it was Lonnie's offense that got Lonnie drafted... He was far from being elite in that area. I would say it was his out of this world athleticism. But anyway, i agree Toppin has elite if not above average offensive skills on offense. Its just his fundamentals on the defensive end and the fact he doesnt have good enough hips to shift around and have good angles on that end. He is heavy footed. We will see... The Spurs did work him out last year...

[Chinook]

I wouldnt say it was Lonnie's offense that got Lonnie drafted... He was far from being elite in that area. I would say it was his out of this world athleticism. But anyway, i agree Toppin has elite if not above average offensive skills on offense. Its just his fundamentals on the defensive end and the fact he doesnt have good enough hips to shift around and have good angles on that end. He is heavy footed. We will see... The Spurs did work him out last year...

I don't think so. If Walker didn't already have a great jump shot and play-making potential the Spurs haven't had since primary Tony Parker, I don't think the Spurs would have taken him at 18, let alone been trying to trade into the top 10 to get. There are impressive athletes in the g-league as well that the Spurs pass up for guys like Blossomgame, Miller and Weatherspoon. Toppin has great athleticism, but it would be better if I had seen some videos that highlighted his struggles. Team needs a first option and a starting PF though. Finding both in one guy would be awesome.

[pad300]

... He looks like an in-shape Zion.

No, just nope! Zion is an All-NBA FREAK in physical terms. Toppin's a good NBA athelete... On the topic of who to draft, Pokusevski is the highest potential guy who I think might be available at 11, but he's definitely not the safest best...

[Chinook]

No, just nope! Zion is an All-NBA FREAK in physical terms. Toppin's a good NBA athelete... On the topic of who to draft, Pokusevski is the highest potential guy who I think might be available at 11, but he's definitely not the safest best...

You don't pass up on ubers for raw players just because they might have potential. That's how you end up with Samanic over Clarke.

Plus who knows what an in-shape Zion would look like athletically? Most of what is so amazing about him is what he can do at that weight.

[Seventyniner]

You don't pass up on ubers for raw players just because they might have potential. That's how you end up with Samanic over Clarke.

Plus who knows what an in-shape Zion would look like athletically? Most of what is so amazing about him is what he can do at that weight.

People also said that about LeBron. And Shaq. And....DeJuan Blair.

[Chinook]

People also said that about LeBron. And Shaq. And....DeJuan Blair.

For all of them, their weight/size was a part. The ones who weren't Blair didn't need the weight. Blair wouldn't've need it as much either if he could shoot. I'm not saying Zion doesn't have skills. He definitely does. I'm saying that he'd be way more guardable if he didn't outweight most centers.

[pad300]

You don't pass up on ubers for raw players just because they might have potential. That's how you end up with Samanic over Clarke.

Plus who knows what an in-shape Zion would look like athletically? Most of what is so amazing about him is what he can do at that weight.

1) Depends on how likely you think Poku is to realize said potential (and whether or not you think Toppin will bust, because he's never been close to being even a bad NBA level defender; he's really bad defensively).
2) We've seen something that resembled an in-shape Zion at the start of this season... And yeah, the thing that makes him freakish and unguardable is that combination of mass, speed and hops.

[TD 21]

You talk about saddiq Bey I think. He could be a solid pick imo, he improves a lot this year with Villanova.
I like him.

Yeah, the other Bey (Tyler) isn't going in that range.



He needs to rebound better, but besides that, he's big, strong and athletic enough to where he can be a plus defender. He'd have to get better at passing to be a true first option, but if defensive potential with elite offensive skills was enough to get Walker drafted, it's enough for Toppin. He looks like an in-shape Zion.

I realize his skillset is more so along the lines of a big wing, like Siakam or Kuzma than it is a traditional big, but very difficult for that type to be a first option in today's game.

Even Siakam, he kind of is, but his efficiency has plummeted in the role and they're really more of an ensemble cast.

What the Spurs need, is a combination of go-to scoring and playmaking, but the latter is slightly more pressing (White is the only young player who can make plays out of p-n-r). That's primarily why they should be looking to trade up and targeting Avdija, Hayes or Haliburton. That and 1.5 of the first two are international, so if by chance they become a star, they're far less likely to force their way out.

[duncan2150]

1) Depends on how likely you think Poku is to realize said potential (and whether or not you think Toppin will bust, because he's never been close to being even a bad NBA level defender; he's really bad defensively).
2) We've seen something that resembled an in-shape Zion at the start of this season... And yeah, the thing that makes him freakish and unguardable is that combination of mass, speed and hops.

Im not agree with the D argument if Toppin is bad then what is poku ? He can't guard nban players now.

I agree about the potential argument and I could be wrong on a few yeaes but Spurs needs ready players not a project like poku.

[duncan2150]

Just started looking at players. It's gotta be Toppin. Trade up if you need to. It's gotta be him. He's one of the ubers this year. Thinking he'll fall because of his age, so there's a good chance he's there between 7 and 11. Make the move.

Ok with that. He could be what the Spurs needs and you're right in another post offensively He will Be Ok but He needs to be a better defender.

[Chinook]

1) Depends on how likely you think Poku is to realize said potential (and whether or not you think Toppin will bust, because he's never been close to being even a bad NBA level defender; he's really bad defensively).
2) We've seen something that resembled an in-shape Zion at the start of this season... And yeah, the thing that makes him freakish and unguardable is that combination of mass, speed and hops.

At this point, Sam pretty much has to be a legit All-Star to make him the better pick than Clarke. Brandon's already a good NBA-caliber rotation player and still have room to improve. I'm obviously hoping Luka makes that jump, but there's something to be said about just picking guys who are good players and not worrying about age. Look at Brogdon and Murray as another example -- one which I think led to the Spurs picking White the next year. There's a difference between actual upside and theoretical upside. Like Murray's theoretical upside might be higher than White's because he's longer and a bit faster. But that supposes Murray becomes a much better player in like every facet to a point that is just not realistic. He's not better than White and in most likelihoods, that will not change. I think Sam's theoretical upside is higher than Clarke's, but I am much less sure that the actual upside is.

But yeah, I do think I'm being bullish on Toppin and that may be unwarranted. I'm seeing a guy who is dominating his level of ball and can do so without dominating the ball. That means he can work with the young guards on the team, and his range and handles makes it to where he can fit with Poeltl. I think Toppin could even slide up to center in small-ball lineups, so in the event Samanic becomes a rotation player, I could see all of the young players sharing the court for stretches. I'd worry about the holes in his game later. First, the defense should be good with White, Johnson and Poeltl. And the team needs a go-to scorer more than they need an ace. The D will improve by not playing Forbes and by having guys buy in, but the offense relies too much on inconsistent players.

[Chinook]

I realize his skillset is more so along the lines of a big wing, like Siakam or Kuzma than it is a traditional big, but very difficult for that type to be a first option in today's game.

Even Siakam, he kind of is, but his efficiency has plummeted in the role and they're really more of an ensemble cast.

What the Spurs need, is a combination of go-to scoring and playmaking, but the latter is slightly more pressing (White is the only young player who can make plays out of p-n-r). That's primarily why they should be looking to trade up and targeting Avdija, Hayes or Haliburton. That and 1.5 of the first two are international, so if by chance they become a star, they're far less likely to force their way out.

I think the play-making will be fine as Walker, Johnson and White continue to grow. I'd like for the team to get another PG to actually run the second unit, but they don't need to draft such a player. I also think having a guy like Toppin will open up play-making for other players because he's going to have a lot of gravity, especially as a roll-man or as a cutter. I could totally see the Spurs bringing in a guard if DeRozan leaves. I think Beli and Forbes are on their way out, and the team will replace them.

But I like Avdija a lot too and wouldn't be mad at all if he's the pick higher up. Don't know much about the PGs though. I don't know that I'd consider them worth trading up for AND giving up on getting a good forward. Not saying they're not. Just too many unknowns. Obviously though, if PATFO thinks a guy is worth it, you have to trust them. I haven't loved some of their recent picks, but they deserve a chance to fail at a high pick before I assume the worst.

[Russ]

People also said that about LeBron. And Shaq. And....DeJuan Blair.

And Greg Oden . . .

[Dejounte]

Tier 1

Avdija - possibly the fastest forward in the draft. Crafty on offense, like Manu. High level bball IQ, like having another Derrick White on the team. Knows what it takes to win. Guaranteed not to be lost on the court. High chance to play on the main squad in his first year.

Onyeka Okongwu - one word: Defense. Allowed 15 points in the paint for 15 games. Switchable. Imagine having Anthony Davis on defense, that's Okongwu. Would help our defense instantly.

Toppin - Equivalent to Blake Griffin. Will struggle on defense when switching against guards.

Tier 2

Tyler Bey - perfect Spur personality-wise. Defensive beast. Best as a 3.5, will get abused by big and strong forwards though. Has a nice post game, mid range shot is money. High floor, probably not a high ceiling.

Precious Achiuwa - Major advantage in size and athleticism. Capable of playing as a big wing. Very switchable on defense. His body is NBA ready, looks like he spends a lot of time in the gym... Has almost 0% body fat (exaggeration). Bball IQ needs to improve.

Patrick Williams - young, potential to be a wing. Has good form on his shot. Not very explosive, so ceiling may not be high. Huge gamble, may turn out to be a Paul George/ T-Mac type or may bust hard like Josh Huestis.

Isaiah Stewart - Big body, not super athletic. Huge wing span. Very strong. Old school 4 unless he works on his agility and shot. Potential to be a modern Zach Randolph

Tier 3

Jalen Smith - comparable to Serge Ibaka
Paul Reed - Stromile Swift vibes, but maybe better
Daniel Oturu - Lamarcus Aldridge vibes
Zeke Nnaji - Jokic vibes
Xavier Tillman - Dwayne Dedmon vibes

[Dejounte]

This video shows the good and bad of Tyler Bey


https://youtu.be/7jR5sohdm6E

He has more good towards the second half of the video, probably because he got better as the season went on

[Russ]

Tier 1

Avdija - possibly the fastest forward in the draft. Crafty on offense, like Manu. High level bball IQ, like having another Derrick White on the team. Knows what it takes to win. Guaranteed not to be lost on the court. High chance to play on the main squad in his first year.

Onyeka Okongwu - one word: Defense. Allowed 15 points in the paint for 15 games. Switchable. Imagine having Anthony Davis on defense, that's Okongwu. Would help our defense instantly.

Toppin - Equivalent to Blake Griffin. Will struggle on defense when switching against guards.

You eliminated Wiseman and Anthony Edwards because they wouldn't be available, right?

In any event, that First Tier looks pretty good. Can't disagree in the least.

[Ditty]

Deni is number one by the mile. Unfortunately I can see the Warriors taking him as he may be perfect in their system as another playmaker :cry. Patrick Williams I think is going to be a really good player from what I have seen. He will be the realistic pick at number 11.

[Dejounte]

You eliminated Wiseman and Anthony Edwards because they wouldn't be available, right?

In any event, that First Tier looks pretty good. Can't disagree in the least.

Honestly, I just have a sense that the Spurs have invested too much on Poetl to give up on him and move onto a new center... Thats why im not really considering centers to be taken if we land a top pick.

Anthony, well, i watched an interview with this kid and he couldnt be more Anti-Spur. If you want to lose brain cells, listen to him speak...

[Dejounte]

The thing with Patrick Williams is he probably wont be a contributor until his 2nd or 3rd year. I dont know about other Spur fans, but im hoping for a game changer this year to turn it around and help the Spurs return to former glory... Or at least be good enough to be a key cog on offense or defense to help us be competitive / consistent again. Patrick is too young and his body leaves much to be desired... Almost has as much muscle as Kyle Anderson which worries me about his work ethic...

[Dejounte]

This video shows the good and bad of Patrick Williams, 1 hour of good info


https://youtu.be/GrKHATZ38Gg

[Chinook]

Honestly, I just have a sense that the Spurs have invested too much on Poetl to give up on him and move onto a new center... Thats why im not really considering centers to be taken if we land a top pick.

Anthony, well, i watched an interview with this kid and he couldnt be more Anti-Spur. If you want to lose brain cells, listen to him speak...

I think they know talent trumps all. Just with Murray, Walker and even White wouldn't stop the Spurs from drafting an elite guard, the Spurs will draft Wiseman without considering Poeltl. That's even more true given that Jakob will stilll be a free agent when the draft happens and could end up getting a big deal from like Detroit. Can't speak on Edwards too much, but if he's got the talent and he's there, you do it. If we're talking 11 or 10, you don't pass up on elite talent for anything.

[Dejounte]

I'm warming up to Patrick Williams... My observation is that he takes no ugly shot. Every shot is a good shot. He has a smooth style to his game. Lack of first step and explosiveness is still a concern.

My tier 2 board changes:

Precious and Pat are equal
Tyler Bey
then
Isaiah Stewart

[Dejounte]

I think they know talent trumps all. Just with Murray, Walker and even White wouldn't stop the Spurs from drafting an elite guard, the Spurs will draft Wiseman without considering Poeltl. That's even more true given that Jakob will stilll be a free agent when the draft happens and could end up getting a big deal from like Detroit. Can't speak on Edwards too much, but if he's got the talent and he's there, you do it. If we're talking 11 or 10, you don't pass up on elite talent for anything.

Yes, I know you're really convinced of that (talent precedes everything) but we will just have agree to disagree. Spurs love their continuity.

As far as Edwards goes, Spurs also love good character. I'm telling you, there is no chance in hell the Spurs would draft a bad apple even if that apple was elite talent... Especially not after Kawhi. This guy's ego is through the roof. I'll believe more on your first point than I would ever believe your second.

[Thomas82]

I think they know talent trumps all. Just with Murray, Walker and even White wouldn't stop the Spurs from drafting an elite guard, the Spurs will draft Wiseman without considering Poeltl. That's even more true given that Jakob will stilll be a free agent when the draft happens and could end up getting a big deal from like Detroit. Can't speak on Edwards too much, but if he's got the talent and he's there, you do it. If we're talking 11 or 10, you don't pass up on elite talent for anything.

Wiseman is who I want more than anybody else.

[Chinook]

Yes, I know you're really convinced of that (talent precedes everything) but we will just have agree to disagree. Spurs love their continuity.

I just don't think that's an opinion. They don't work that way. Their defining move was drafting a center when they already had a HoF center. They literally don't care about that and are perfectly happy to play guys out of position if need be. They'd be much more inclined to draft Wiseman and start him next to Poeltl than they would be to pass up on Wiseman because Jakob's there. And again, you're ignoring that Jakob won't even be there, because he's a free agent who's at least going to look at other teams. By no means would that prevent the Spurs from drafting the top talent in the draft. I think you can disagree on his talent (I don't know much about him and haven't been in love with the little I've seen), but I think the opinion that the Spurs draft around players is objectively false.

I also think it's weird to think the Spurs have "invested" a lot in Poeltl when they don't even start him when healthy. You might mean that they'll keep him because he was part of the Kawhi trade and that letting him go would be losing out on some of the value they got from their future HoFer. But at some point they'd have to let that go. If they think Wiseman is the best player in the draft, then passing up on him to not look bad for moving on from Poeltl would be a worse mistake than taking that bad package from Toronto in the first place.

[spurspl]

we have no assets to land wiseman guys

[duncan2150]

I just don't think that's an opinion. They don't work that way. Their defining move was drafting a center when they already had a HoF center. They literally don't care about that and are perfectly happy to play guys out of position if need be. They'd be much more inclined to draft Wiseman and start him next to Poeltl than they would be to pass up on Wiseman because Jakob's there. And again, you're ignoring that Jakob won't even be there, because he's a free agent who's at least going to look at other teams. By no means would that prevent the Spurs from drafting the top talent in the draft. I think you can disagree on his talent (I don't know much about him and haven't been in love with the little I've seen), but I think the opinion that the Spurs draft around players is objectively false.

I also think it's weird to think the Spurs have "invested" a lot in Poeltl when they don't even start him when healthy. You might mean that they'll keep him because he was part of the Kawhi trade and that letting him go would be losing out on some of the value they got from their future HoFer. But at some point they'd have to let that go. If they think Wiseman is the best player in the draft, then passing up on him to not look bad for moving on from Poeltl would be a worse mistake than taking that bad package from Toronto in the first place.

For sure the Spurs will Go with the BPA. I don't know if they will draft a pg tough with Murray and white but everything is possible with the way they draft.


we have no assets to land wiseman guys

Lottery luck.

[exstatic]

At this point, Sam pretty much has to be a legit All-Star to make him the better pick than Clarke. Brandon's already a good NBA-caliber rotation player and still have room to improve. I'm obviously hoping Luka makes that jump, but there's something to be said about just picking guys who are good players and not worrying about age. Look at Brogdon and Murray as another example -- one which I think led to the Spurs picking White the next year. There's a difference between actual upside and theoretical upside. Like Murray's theoretical upside might be higher than White's because he's longer and a bit faster. But that supposes Murray becomes a much better player in like every facet to a point that is just not realistic. He's not better than White and in most likelihoods, that will not change. I think Sam's theoretical upside is higher than Clarke's, but I am much less sure that the actual upside is.

But yeah, I do think I'm being bullish on Toppin and that may be unwarranted. I'm seeing a guy who is dominating his level of ball and can do so without dominating the ball. That means he can work with the young guards on the team, and his range and handles makes it to where he can fit with Poeltl. I think Toppin could even slide up to center in small-ball lineups, so in the event Samanic becomes a rotation player, I could see all of the young players sharing the court for stretches. I'd worry about the holes in his game later. First, the defense should be good with White, Johnson and Poeltl. And the team needs a go-to scorer more than they need an ace. The D will improve by not playing Forbes and by having guys buy in, but the offense relies too much on inconsistent players.

Clarke is a 12/6 guy, but Samanic has to be an all star to surpass him? Okaaaaay. Butthurt much when the Spurs don’t draft “your guy”?

The reality is that when guys are drafted at 23, most of their development is done. His numbers may bump up with usage, because that’s normal, but he’ll likely wind up being what he is right now...a guy. There isn’t anything special about Brandon Clarke.

[Chinook]

Clarke is a 12/6 guy, but Samanic has to be an all star to surpass him? Okaaaaay. Butthurt much when the Spurs don’t draft “your guy”?

The reality is that when guys are drafted at 23, most of their development is done. His numbers may bump up with usage, because that’s normal, but he’ll likely wind up being what he is right now...a guy. There isn’t anything special about Brandon Clarke.

I get that you're the edgy Pro-Spurs fan, but I think you should look at what I'm saying rather than looking for a place to get a shot in. A 12/6 rookie is actually really good, especially for one who isn't starting and getting tons of touches. To put it into perspective, his TS% is higher than any of the regular-rotation players from the season. He was better than Poeltl, who is older and has had more time with NBA coaching. The idea that passing him up wouldn't require a ton of development is wrong-headed. Regardless, let's say in 2022-2023, Sam becomes a 15/7 guy. That's a non-All Star, but it's certainly not a JAG like you'd probably think. And let's say he hits those numbers in a relatively efficient way, so him being a chucker wouldn't be part of this. AND let's say Clarke doesn't get any better for some reason nor gets more minutes to up his raw number. Yeah, if you draft a guy and wait two years just for him to become a slightly better player, it's not a great use of an investment. I dunno what to tell you. If you're going to take a project, then you have to get clearly more to justify the time spent, not just slightly more.

The idea that Clarke is who he is and that that guy is not very impressive is just horribly thought out. Even if that were the case, he'd've been exactly what the Spurs needed. I'm hoping Sam becomes a guy who can be the best player on the team, but it definitely doesn't HAVE to work out that way, just like it didn't work out that Murray had more potential than White or that Milutinov was going to become this good future big to justify on passing up guys in the draft. The Spurs get things wrong from time to time, and sometimes it's obvious enough to know even in the first year. Sometimes it's not, though, like White over Jordan Bell. Time will tell, but time right now says Clarke was the better pick, potential included.

[ragas]

I get that you're the edgy Pro-Spurs fan, but I think you should look at what I'm saying rather than looking for a place to get a shot in. A 12/6 rookie is actually really good, especially for one who isn't starting and getting tons of touches. To put it into perspective, his TS% is higher than any of the regular-rotation players from the season. He was better than Poeltl, who is older and has had more time with NBA coaching. The idea that passing him up wouldn't require a ton of development is wrong-headed. Regardless, let's say in 2022-2023, Sam becomes a 15/7 guy. That's a non-All Star, but it's certainly not a JAG like you'd probably think. And let's say he hits those numbers in a relatively efficient way, so him being a chucker wouldn't be part of this. AND let's say Clarke doesn't get any better for some reason nor gets more minutes to up his raw number. Yeah, if you draft a guy and wait two years just for him to become a slightly better player, it's not a great use of an investment. I dunno what to tell you. If you're going to take a project, then you have to get clearly more to justify the time spent, not just slightly more.

The idea that Clarke is who he is and that that guy is not very impressive is just horribly thought out. Even if that were the case, he'd've been exactly what the Spurs needed. I'm hoping Sam becomes a guy who can be the best player on the team, but it definitely doesn't HAVE to work out that way, just like it didn't work out that Murray had more potential than White or that Milutinov was going to become this good future big to justify on passing up guys in the draft. The Spurs get things wrong from time to time, and sometimes it's obvious enough to know even in the first year. Sometimes it's not, though, like White over Jordan Bell. Time will tell, but time right now says Clarke was the better pick, potential included.

Time right now says nothing. Nobody knows, what kind of player Samanic will be when he‘s 23.

[Dejounte]

I just don't think that's an opinion. They don't work that way. Their defining move was drafting a center when they already had a HoF center. They literally don't care about that and are perfectly happy to play guys out of position if need be. They'd be much more inclined to draft Wiseman and start him next to Poeltl than they would be to pass up on Wiseman because Jakob's there. And again, you're ignoring that Jakob won't even be there, because he's a free agent who's at least going to look at other teams. By no means would that prevent the Spurs from drafting the top talent in the draft. I think you can disagree on his talent (I don't know much about him and haven't been in love with the little I've seen), but I think the opinion that the Spurs draft around players is objectively false.

I also think it's weird to think the Spurs have "invested" a lot in Poeltl when they don't even start him when healthy. You might mean that they'll keep him because he was part of the Kawhi trade and that letting him go would be losing out on some of the value they got from their future HoFer. But at some point they'd have to let that go. If they think Wiseman is the best player in the draft, then passing up on him to not look bad for moving on from Poeltl would be a worse mistake than taking that bad package from Toronto in the first place.

If nothing else, I dont believe there are any generational centers at the top (if we land a top 4 pick) to warrant picking a center. Wiseman I believe would just be a marginal improvement

[exstatic]

Call me crazy. I just don’t think that you pass on a 6”10” kid, especially with a non lottery pick, who can handle the ball well, including crossing over on the move, pass, and shoot, although not with range yet, and who has a 38” vertical, for a 5th year senior transfer who’s 23, and has no great single skill.

[Chinook]

Time right now says nothing. Nobody knows, what kind of player Samanic will be when he‘s 23.

That's not the way it works. When Sam is 23, Clarke with be 27, and four years of Spurs seasons will have gone by. That's a lot of opportunity cost, and that ignores that Brandon will be in his physical prime. Age really isn't all that important. Wiggins is still younger than Derrick White. I get drafting players for the future, but that doesn't mean how they are in the present doesn't matter. The biggest benefit to drafting players is having them on cheap contracts. Even if they're better on their second contracts, it may not be worth it to have them over a lesser guy who gave four solid years from jumpstreet. And this ignores that even if Luka is a good player at 23, he may not remain a Spur due to contract or personality. No reason to overcount those eggs.

[Chinook]

Call me crazy. I just don’t think that you pass on a 6”10” kid, especially with a non lottery pick, who can handle the ball well, including crossing over on the move, pass, and shoot, although not with range yet, and who has a 38” vertical, for a 5th year senior transfer who’s 23, and has no great single skill.

K Crazy. It's not hard to see when that fifth-year senior was pretty clearly the second-best player in college that year. Sometimes you just outthink yourself and try to zag when you shoulda just gone straight.

[Dejounte]

Meh. Clarke has not been impressive the times I've watched him, especially during our bubble game vs them

[ragas]

That's not the way it works. When Sam is 23, Clarke with be 27, and four years of Spurs seasons will have gone by. That's a lot of opportunity cost, and that ignores that Brandon will be in his physical prime. Age really isn't all that important. Wiggins is still younger than Derrick White. I get drafting players for the future, but that doesn't mean how they are in the present doesn't matter. The biggest benefit to drafting players is having them on cheap contracts. Even if they're better on their second contracts, it may not be worth it to have them over a lesser guy who gave four solid years from jumpstreet. And this ignores that even if Luka is a good player at 23, he may not remain a Spur due to contract or personality. No reason to overcount those eggs.

that‘s not how it works. the development curve isn‘t constantly raising. and you‘re betting that almost 24 year old Clarke will continue to get better. can be, but hasn‘t to be.

[exstatic]

K Crazy. It's not hard to see when that fifth-year senior was pretty clearly the second-best player in college that year. Sometimes you just outthink yourself and try to zag when you shoulda just gone straight.

Best in college doesn’t mean best NBA prospect.

Alfrederick motherfucking Hughes.

Devin Booker scored 10pts, grabbed 2 boards, and dished 1 assist at UK. Guess you would have passed on him, too, since he wasn’t the best player in college.

[Chinook]

that‘s not how it works. the development curve isn‘t constantly raising. and you‘re betting that almost 24 year old Clarke will continue to get better. can be, but hasn‘t to be.

Not really though. Most players are in their physical prime in their mid to late 20s. Like yes, Clarke could get some degenerative condition that saps his muscles at a young age. But it's completely reasonable to assume that he'll follow everyone else's curve. That is not the same thing as saying that Clarke will improve at the same rate than Samanic does. I don't know that. I am saying that he'll likely be at the plateau of his career, whether that's due to him getting better or saying the same. The same should be true for Sam too in that he'll likely peak in his mid to late 20s as well. By then, Clarke would be in his early 30s and probably on the decline if his skills haven't increased to a point where he's able to compensate for losing burst. But then we're talking about third contracts at that time, and the gap by which Sam has to be better than Clarke to justify that much time would be huge.

Just to be clear, Clarke is way, way better than Sam right now. There are plenty of players in the NBA right now who are older than Clarke and aren't as good and never will be as good as Clarke already is. If Sam has Clarke's impact at 23, that'd be a victory for the Spurs. As I said, Clarke and Jakob are pretty similar, with Brandon being more aggressive/dynamic and Poeltl being bigger. People are perfectly happy with his development and projection despite him being older and more importantly having three more years of NBA coaching than Clarke does. It's not pessimistic to think Sam still won't be the better player in three years, or even seven.

[Chinook]

Best in college doesn’t mean best NBA prospect.

Alfrederick motherfucking Hughes.

Devin Booker scored 10pts, grabbed 2 boards, and dished 1 assist at UK. Guess you would have passed on him, too, since he wasn’t the best player in college.

You're not helping your case. "Sometimes players bust" -- we know that. Sometimes players don't live up to their potential, and sometimes even if they do it ends up not being worth it.

I didn't say Clarke should've gone in the top three or even top 10. But the Spurs drafted at 19. He was easily BPA then, at a position of need, with a skill-set the team needed. I get that the Spurs believe in Sam. But that doesn't mean they weren't wrong or that it doesn't make sense to question their logic.

[exstatic]

You're not helping your case. "Sometimes players bust" -- we know that. Sometimes players don't live up to their potential, and sometimes even if they do it ends up not being worth it.

I didn't say Clarke should've gone in the top three or even top 10. But the Spurs drafted at 19. He was easily BPA then, at a position of need, with a skill-set the team needed. I get that the Spurs believe in Sam. But that doesn't mean they weren't wrong or that it doesn't make sense to question their logic.

Just the last ten years, and I’m only going to comb the first ten picks, even though the pick you’re crying about is #19. This is also just american players.

2010
Evan Turner #2
Wesley Johnson #4
Ekpe Udoh #6

2011
Derrick Williams #2

2012
MKG #2
Thomas Robinson #5

2013
Anthony Bennett #1
Cody Zeller #4
Alex Len #5
Nerlens Noel #6
Ben McLemore #7

2014
Nick Stauskas #8
Noah Vonleh #9

2015
Jahlil Okafor #3
Willy Cauley-Stein #6
Stanley Johnson #8
Frank Kaminsky #9
Justice Winslow #10

2016
Kris Dunn #5
Marquees Chriss #9

I’ll stop there, since the last drafts haven’t really shown their quality yet.

It’s more than just one guy. Highly regarded college players Drafted in the top 10 bust out every year, let alone later than that in the draft, like, say, pick #19.

[Chinook]

Just the last ten years, and I’m only going to comb the first ten picks, even though the pick you’re crying about is #19. This is also just american players.

2010
Evan Turner #2
Wesley Johnson #4
Ekpe Udoh #6

2011
Derrick Williams #2

2012
MKG #2
Thomas Robinson #5

2013
Anthony Bennett #1
Cody Zeller #4
Alex Len #5
Nerlens Noel #6
Ben McLemore #7

2014
Nick Stauskas #8
Noah Vonleh #9

2015
Jahlil Okafor #3
Willy Cauley-Stein #6
Stanley Johnson #8
Frank Kaminsky #9
Justice Winslow #10

2016
Kris Dunn #5
Marquees Chriss #9

I’ll stop there, since the last drafts haven’t really shown their quality yet.

It’s more than just one guy. Highly regarded college players Drafted in the top 10 bust out every year, let alone later than that in the draft, like, say, pick #19.

Most of those guys weren't regarded for their production. They were regarded for their potential. Seriously man, you're missing the script. Why do you think listing a bunch of freshman who were hyped but busted argues against picking a 23-year-old that was anti-hyped because folks assumed he had a low ceiling and was taking advantage of younger players?

Again, you're too obsessed with the edgy shtick to make sense. Saying some players bust -- saying a lot of players bust -- isn't an argument for anything. If anything, you're making my case for me to pissing all over the idea of youth and potential trumping production. And you focused on high picks in order to be lazy when I'm "whining" about not using a non-lottery pick on a player. Like come on man. Not good work by you at all.

[exstatic]

You’re the one that brought up college production as a criteria. Don’t cry when it gets put back in your face, Mutombo style.

When you’re drafting outside the lottery, you go for the highest ceiling, period, even if it comes hand in hand with the lowest floor.

[JuneJive]

When you’re drafting outside the lottery, you go for the highest ceiling, period, even if it comes hand in hand with the lowest floor.

This pretty much sums it up.

[Degoat]

Derrick White was an older rookie and look how he’s developed, the notion that younger players have a high ceiling is kinda BS imo. Lonzo ball had a higher ceiling then DWhite did in the 2017 nba draft but thank god we got DWhite instead of a guy who “had a higher ceiling.”

[Dejounte]

Yalls heads are so far up your asses that you havent come to the realization that there are NO end all, be all method to selecting players. Thats why scouts get paid the big bucks. But even then, the best scouts make mistakes too. There are way too many variables to consider. Chinook may be right TO AN EXTENT and extatic may be right TO AN EXTENT. It all depends on the player and the circumstance.

[Chinook]

You’re the one that brought up college production as a criteria. Don’t cry when it gets put back in your face, Mutombo style.

Not at all. You don't seem to get the difference between a guy who was legit dominate in college and players who scored well but weren't that good. Clarke's season was only under the radar because Zion was there too. It was absolutely insane. Saying "well Chriss scored a whole bunch too and failed" is wrong for multiple reasons. The most obvious one is that Chriss was nowhere near the player Clarke was in college. Dunn, who is at least a four-year player, wasn't close to that player. Okafor was closer, but Clarke was still way better. Basically, Clarke dominated on nearly the level Wiseman did, but he sustained it for a season.

The other big reason though is the finding counter examples isn't the same thing as arguing against a point. For literally any criterion, you can find examples of it not working out. Ignoring that you completely whiffed on the basic scope of the discussion by bringing in top-10 picks, you can argue that taking athletes is bad because of guys like Chriss and Wiggins. You can argue that taking guys from good programs is bad because of players like Valentine and Davis. You can argue that taking character guys is wrong by listing folks who didn't seem like they were going to have issues who end up being PoSs.

Anyway


When you’re drafting outside the lottery, you go for the highest ceiling, period, even if it comes hand in hand with the lowest floor.

Yeah, no. Teams outside the lottery very often draft for floor. That's because those teams are playoff teams with cap space already allocated and often want a player to come in and fill a rotation spot for cheap. I don't know if you think literally every player SA has drafted in the past two decades has been the highest-ceiling player, but I doubt even PatFO would agree with you. Potential is what teams at the top of the board draft for almost exclusively. But once you get past the top of the draft, teams have a lot of different priorities to setting their boards.

[Chinook]

Yalls heads are so far up your asses that you havent come to the realization that there are NO end all, be all method to selecting players. Thats why scouts get paid the big bucks. But even then, the best scouts make mistakes too. There are way too many variables to consider. Chinook may be right TO AN EXTENT and extatic may be right TO AN EXTENT. It all depends on the player and the circumstance.

Appreciate your attempt to mediate, but I can't ride with it. This isn't about players or circumstances. Whether Sam is a better pick than Clarke for the long haul is unknown. I am totally rooting for that to be the case. The issue is how floors, ceilings and progression arcs fit into the overall value structure of draft picks. Arguing that having an absolutely higher ceiling is more desirable regardless of progression arc is wrong. There's no splitting the difference there.

The value Luka and Brandon will provide to teams is based on a few factors: how good they are over the course of their careers, how fast they can become good, and how much they cost relative to their impact (and along with this is how many of those years are those players on their original teams and how many of those years were good and if they were traded, how much they got back in a trade -- I just decided to go with three factors out of convenience). It's not enough to be better in four years. They have to be better enough to justify waiting and missing out on solid production. That's just math. There are complicating factors that go into that, but they don't change the nature of the relationship.

And the age thing is still being overblown. Wiggins is younger than White, but realistically, White has more room to grow because he's been in the NBA less time. Wiggins' progression arc is further along, despite his youth and despite the fact that he sucks.

[Dejounte]

"Arguing that having an absolutely higher ceiling is more desirable regardless of progression arc is wrong."

It CAN be right if the coaches and development staff have confidence they can bring out the best out of that raw player.

This argument is tiresome so no need to reply lol

I just cant wait to find out where we pick and whom we pick. That's literally the only excitement I have right now about the Spurs aside from watching Keldon develop

[Dejounte]

Scouts/ teams calculate risk tolerance. The best organizations make decisions off of risks they can live with if it fails. That's why there are backup plans B, C, D, and so forth.

Hardly ever does a great organization put all their eggs in one basket.

[Dejounte]

I would argue that the Spurs feeling confident in signing Trey Lyles (or Marcus Morris if that had panned out well) was the reasoning they did not go after Brandon Clarke. Clarke's surefire production would probably only be a marginal improvement or maybe comparable production to Trey (or Marcus), hence why they were willing to pass up on him to draft Samanic.

Hence, this is why I say that great organizations always have backup plans.

As much hate Trey gets around here, he is a pretty solid player with room to grow.

You have to look at the bigger picture.

[Chinook]

"Arguing that having an absolutely higher ceiling is more desirable regardless of progression arc is wrong."

It CAN be right if the coaches and development staff have confidence they can bring out the best out of that raw player.


The statement you quoted is absolute, so it can't be applied situationally. Maybe this is just my fault for wording it poorly, but what you're using as a counter example is actually talking about progression arc. Using 2K-style numbers for simplicity. Situation: There are two players, A and B. A staff thinks Player A has Ovl of 79 and a Pot of 83 and Player B Ovl of 70 and Pot of 90. What you're saying is that it's possible that Player B can be the right choice no matter what because they are confident in their ability to develop Player B to reach that Pot. I don't think I'm getting you wrong there, but tell me if I am.

What I'm saying is that if that that staff has to have a sense of how long that both players have to reach their potentials. If A gets to 83 in year two and B gets there in year five or six and then gets to 90 in year eight or nine, it's not clear that even they would want to pick B over A. The arc itself matters. Picking A gets 83-level play for three cheap years. Almost all of the time Player B is at that level, he's being paid like a 83-ovl player and is thus providing less value for his production. Maybe in those four years A was better than B, the GM can put together a contending roster with that extra cap space. Or maybe B walks because they want to get 83-level money but the team isn't in a position to pay that much. If both players walk after their first contract, then the team got way more value for A than B. But even if they make it to two contracts, you can still argue that A was the better pick, because the team had a solid player for longer, and that gave them more flexibility. To complicate matters, even the best staff is only somewhat certain in their progression. B might develop way faster, A might have more potential than believed or one or the other could bust. That discounts the value of the more volatile asset, because present value is worth more than future value.

I'm not saying that chunk of text definitely applies to these players. But point remains that how quickly a guy can develop is definitely important to projecting that player's ceiling, and when it comes to what teams get from their draft picks, picking a whole bunch of players that are only good once they're on their second deals is not viable financially, higher ceiling or no. You need cheap guys producing, unless you have legit MVP candidates on the roster.

[tdominate21]

Call me crazy. I just don’t think that you pass on a 6”10” kid, especially with a non lottery pick, who can handle the ball well, including crossing over on the move, pass, and shoot, although not with range yet, and who has a 38” vertical, for a 5th year senior transfer who’s 23, and has no great single skill.

Good point. And don't forget his post game. He's shown some pretty good moves in the post. It's way to early to judge him.

[Chinook]

I would argue that the Spurs feeling confident in signing Trey Lyles (or Marcus Morris if that had panned out well) was the reasoning they did not go after Brandon Clarke. Clarke's surefire production would probably only be a marginal improvement or maybe comparable production to Trey (or Marcus), hence why they were willing to pass up on him to draft Samanic.

Hence, this is why I say that great organizations always have backup plans.

As much hate Trey gets around here, he is a pretty solid player with room to grow.

You have to look at the bigger picture.

That definitely can factor in. To be clear, I didn't say the Spurs didn't have valid reasons for their selection. Ex got real butt-hurt that I said the Spurs did a bad thing, but that wasn't the point I'd been making. I don't hate Lyles and definitely wanted Morris. I think Clarke would've still been the better pick, but that's its own thing now. The point that started all this was basically saying that people overestimate ceilings for younger players because they assume players will improve beyond a realistic progression curve. To keep the 2K thing going, players' Ovl's don't just go up. Certain attributes have higher caps, and if a player can hit those specific caps, their Ovl's will be good. Like Murray might well learn to play PG, but there's zero reason to project him to do that. He can become a solid shooter and bulk up to guard more players. He can become a bit more controlled. But White can shoot better too, and he can get a better feel for the game, get more aggressive, get better chemistry with his teammates. Both have things the other lacks, and that will always be true. It's just that White's areas of potential improvement are more realistic than Murray's are, so White has a higher realistic ceiling.

[Dejounte]

The statement you quoted is absolute, so it can't be applied situationally. Maybe this is just my fault for wording it poorly, but what you're using as a counter example is actually talking about progression arc. Using 2K-style numbers for simplicity. Situation: There are two players, A and B. A staff thinks Player A has Ovl of 79 and a Pot of 83 and Player B Ovl of 70 and Pot of 90. What you're saying is that it's possible that Player B can be the right choice no matter what because they are confident in their ability to develop Player B to reach that Pot. I don't think I'm getting you wrong there, but tell me if I am.

What I'm saying is that if that that staff has to have a sense of how long that both players have to reach their potentials. If A gets to 83 in year two and B gets there in year five or six and then gets to 90 in year eight or nine, it's not clear that even they would want to pick B over A. The arc itself matters. Picking A gets 83-level play for three cheap years. Almost all of the time Player B is at that level, he's being paid like a 83-ovl player and is thus providing less value for his production. Maybe in those four years A was better than B, the GM can put together a contending roster with that extra cap space. Or maybe B walks because they want to get 83-level money but the team isn't in a position to pay that much. If both players walk after their first contract, then the team got way more value for A than B. But even if they make it to two contracts, you can still argue that A was the better pick, because the team had a solid player for longer, and that gave them more flexibility. To complicate matters, even the best staff is only somewhat certain in their progression. B might develop way faster, A might have more potential than believed or one or the other could bust. That discounts the value of the more volatile asset, because present value is worth more than future value.

I'm not saying that chunk of text definitely applies to these players. But point remains that how quickly a guy can develop is definitely important to projecting that player's ceiling, and when it comes to what teams get from their draft picks, picking a whole bunch of players that are only good once they're on their second deals is not viable financially, higher ceiling or no. You need cheap guys producing, unless you have legit MVP candidates on the roster.

Sure, but there's also Player C who has an overall rating of 80 that you can get in free agency who can give you those 4 reliable years of production, like I said above about Trey or Marcus.

Btw, i cant find your post about how the Spurs should nab a developmental center they can bring along the pipeline but honestly Samanic can fit that bill...he looks like a 4.5 to me.

[spurspl]

spurs send young guys to the gleague so whats the difference if we take younger guy and send him to 2yrs to gleague or a 2yrs older and better guy and play him now in a nba roster??

obi toppin is pretty old as a rookie but godammit he rocks in a collage. Samanic f.e wasnt and still isnt even in a gleague. He needs more time. Probably, but thats not for sure, he will be ready for an nba in an age like obi toppin is now

[TD 21]

honestly Samanic can fit that bill...he looks like a 4.5 to me.

Nah, he's strictly a 4. T-rex arms and no strength (he'll get stronger, but he'll probably always lack it) likely means defensive rebounding/rim protection will always be an issue.

[Chinook]

Sure, but there's also Player C who has an overall rating of 80 that you can get in free agency who can give you those 4 reliable years of production, like I said above about Trey or Marcus.

Btw, i cant find your post about how the Spurs should nab a developmental center they can bring along the pipeline but honestly Samanic can fit that bill...he looks like a 4.5 to me.

Yes, but those players cost more, and teams might not be able to bring those guys in if they had different needs. Plus, that just highlights the value difference. Teams compensating the value difference doesn't negate the value difference. It just means that Player B has to be even better to make up for making his club use additional flexibility to make up for him.

Anyway, I don't think Sam will get big enough to be a center. I mean Gay plays it, so anything is possible. But I don't know if I'd even want him to bulk up to play fives. Who knows, though, since Jan Vesely is a decent five in Europe right now, and folks thought he was a combo-forward when drafted. Hope Sam doesn't follow that progression.

[K...]

Scouts are only good if they also have a solid player development team behind them. That's what the Spurs have and why the lottery teams never improve. To succeed via the draft you need either can't miss prospects, or a solid team foundation to integrate into.

[Dejounte]

Yes, but those players cost more, and teams might not be able to bring those guys in if they had different needs. Plus, that just highlights the value difference. Teams compensating the value difference doesn't negate the value difference. It just means that Player B has to be even better to make up for making his club use additional flexibility to make up for him.

Anyway, I don't think Sam will get big enough to be a center. I mean Gay plays it, so anything is possible. But I don't know if I'd even want him to bulk up to play fives. Who knows, though, since Jan Vesely is a decent five in Europe right now, and folks thought he was a combo-forward when drafted. Hope Sam doesn't follow that progression.

It's possible for a player who takes up 10% of the cap can be the same value as a player who takes up 3% of the cap. How does that make sense? Well, there are situations where the team has to use up their cap anyway, so in this sense, financial value is negligible. Plus, factor in value based off larger contracts which can be useful as trade chips because of their ability to provide cap relief (whereas draft pick contracts cant)

[Chinook]

It's possible for a player who takes up 10% of the cap can be the same value as a player who takes up 3% of the cap. How does that make sense? Well, there are situations where the team has to use up their cap anyway, so in this sense, financial value is negligible. Plus, factor in value based off larger contracts which can be useful as trade chips because of their ability to provide cap relief (whereas draft pick contracts cant)

I don't disagree that there are different multipliers that come with cap space, but it's not true that the same player on different contracts provide the same value. If you use the MLE to replace A so B and develop, you missed out on the chance to use the MLE on a C to shore up a different position since A already can do one. And you can trade C just as much in both situations. There's also no guarantee that C is expiring.

[SAGirl]

That's not the way it works. When Sam is 23, Clarke with be 27, and four years of Spurs seasons will have gone by. That's a lot of opportunity cost, and that ignores that Brandon will be in his physical prime. Age really isn't all that important. Wiggins is still younger than Derrick White. I get drafting players for the future, but that doesn't mean how they are in the present doesn't matter. The biggest benefit to drafting players is having them on cheap contracts. Even if they're better on their second contracts, it may not be worth it to have them over a lesser guy who gave four solid years from jumpstreet. And this ignores that even if Luka is a good player at 23, he may not remain a Spur due to contract or personality. No reason to overcount those eggs.
And that is if he's ever as good as Clarke. As you said, sometimes these picks based on potential simply don't pan out, or they turn into de colo, and want to return to Europe bc they aren't getting played, etc. Who knows?

I am not against them drafting on potential, they need it. It's just that of all the young guys drafted on potential Samanic seems like the one with more question marks. He has issues with his competitive spirit, effort, even his reputation from his older team.

It's too soon to say for sure obviously but he could easily bust. At least he looks like he will need another year to develop, in the very least and truthfully sometimes these picks that are a couple of years away, ending up being a couple of years away from being a couple of years away, like indeed Bruno Caboclo. Hoping not, but it's a definite possibility right now. At least I am glad that the Spurs got Johnson from that draft bc if Samanic was all they got from the draft last year, this team would be further behind than they look right now.

[exstatic]

I would argue that the Spurs feeling confident in signing Trey Lyles (or Marcus Morris if that had panned out well) was the reasoning they did not go after Brandon Clarke. Clarke's surefire production would probably only be a marginal improvement or maybe comparable production to Trey (or Marcus), hence why they were willing to pass up on him to draft Samanic.

Hence, this is why I say that great organizations always have backup plans.

As much hate Trey gets around here, he is a pretty solid player with room to grow.

You have to look at the bigger picture.

(trey is also about the same age as Clarke)

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1197929409044504576/nKXnm0aN_normal.jpg (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania) Shams Charania (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania) (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania) ShamsCharania (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania)




The NBA plans to hold the Aug. 20 Draft Lottery virtually, with 14 team representatives appearing via virtual display, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA (https://twitter.com/TheAthleticNBA/) @Stadium (https://twitter.com/Stadium/).
3:17pm · 10 Aug 2020 (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1292918109230247936) · TweetDeck (https://help.twitter.com/en/using-twitter/how-to-tweet#source-labels)

[SAGirl]

Btw, i cant find your post about how the Spurs should nab a developmental center they can bring along the pipeline but honestly Samanic can fit that bill...he looks like a 4.5 to me.
If there is a big they like, I hope they draft him. As much as I may have complained about them continuing to draft guards at one point, them continuing to fish for a gem has yielded good results. Increasing the competition and pressure on Samanic would probably even help him get his head in the right place. I actually liked that he had to compete with Metu. In fact, if they don't keep Metu (I wouldn't expect them to), it would be good to draft another development project big for competition. I think it was you who said, it's not good to place all the eggs on one basket.

[Dejounte]

Random thought...

If Drew, who everyone thought would never make an NBA roster (including myself), all of a sudden looks like he is competent... There is still hope for Samanic.

Drew playing like he is now is a downright miracle. He never made any impact in garbage time whenever he came from Austin during the regular season to show he belongs.

It's like night and day...

[Dejounte]

If there is a big they like, I hope they draft him. As much as I may have complained about them continuing to draft guards at one point, them continuing to fish for a gem has yielded good results. Increasing the competition and pressure on Samanic would probably even help him get his head in the right place. I actually liked that he had to compete with Metu. In fact, if they don't keep Metu (I wouldn't expect them to), it would be good to draft another development project big for competition. I think it was you who said, it's not good to place all the eggs on one basket.

Sure thing. I trust the Spurs. Like everybody I'm just speculating what they'll do come draft time, using previous knowledge of how the Spurs have acted in the past and deductive reasoning. If they choose a big (I'm assuming you mean a center here), so be it.

If the Spurs draft the players I like (Deni, Okongwu, Toppin, Precious, Pat Williams), then for sure they'll be competing with Samanic unless he moves to 5. Best thing that could happen to Samanic is us drafting Deni though, since they seem to be buddies already on Instagram and Deni is a playmaker who could form a Luka/ Porzingas-like tandem with Samanic.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/aUWqQ0JhTIE

Here's a video showing Toppin's good and bad (misses, offensive fouls, turnovers, etc.)

This channel is amazing. They have a lot of content on players and it doesnt just show highlights, which is great
Chinook

[Kurgan]

Random thought...

If Drew, who everyone thought would never make an NBA roster (including myself), all of a sudden looks like he is competent... There is still hope for Samanic.

Drew playing like he is now is a downright miracle. He never made any impact in garbage time whenever he came from Austin during the regular season to show he belongs.

It's like night and day...

Part of that comes down to work ethic. He seems like a grounded dude that's taking nothing for granted - I remember a clip of Eubanks practicing his three point shot a couple months ago. It seems like he's always working on his game. Contrast that to someone like Jakob who doesn't look any different than the player he was in Toronto.

Another example...after the Nuggets playoff loss, White spent the summer working on his three. It's paying off with all these bubble games where he looks like the Spurs best player. Contrast that to Murray, who still looks like a raw work in progress(despite having more NBA experience than White).

Samanic has the tools to be a really good player but that's all going to be meaningless if he's doesn't put the work in. As much as I hate Nephew, he's a great example of what work ethic can do for you(if you have the physical tools). Every year it seemed like he added something to his game and kept getting better and better.

[SAGirl]

Sure thing. I trust the Spurs. Like everybody I'm just speculating what they'll do come draft time, using previous knowledge of how the Spurs have acted in the past and deductive reasoning. If they choose a big (I'm assuming you mean a center here), so be it.

If the Spurs draft the players I like (Deni, Okongwu, Toppin, Precious, Pat Williams), then for sure they'll be competing with Samanic unless he moves to 5. Best thing that could happen to Samanic is us drafting Deni though, since they seem to be buddies already on Instagram and Deni is a playmaker who could form a Luka/ Porzingas-like tandem with Samanic.
:tu
I am only just seeing everyone's opinion at this point. I'll watch video when when offseason is here and then I'll speculate. I really like all this discussion. I used to watch a lot more developmental players. Just haven't been interested in the past couple seasons, as I became more casual and busier. Still here though and really excited and hopeful to add some size to this core. Don't have a mind on position, just want them to get a real player... get the development project with the 2nd. :)

[DAF86]

https://youtu.be/aUWqQ0JhTIE

Here's a video showing Toppin's good and bad (misses, offensive fouls, turnovers, etc.)

This channel is amazing. They have a lot of content on players and it doesnt just show highlights, which is great
Chinook

Looks more like a center than a forward, tbh.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/NrfhjfxhZ_g

Here's a 1 hour and 30 minute video of the good and bad of Devin Vassell. After watching this, i just want to reiterate how much I dislike him as a prospect. He has awful shot selection, almost no feel for the game on offense, his form looks terrible, he runs around on offense like he doesnt know where to be and ends up killing the spacing and bumping into his own teammates. Dude is dumb as a rock on offense. Compared to his teammate, Pat Williams, he looks like a scrub. Pat is also about 2" taller than him.

[DAF86]

40% shooter from 3. Interesting. Will he be available at 11?

Edit: talking about Toppin.

[Dejounte]

:tu
I am only just seeing everyone's opinion at this point. I'll watch video when when offseason is here and then I'll speculate. I really like all this discussion. I used to watch a lot more developmental players. Just haven't been interested in the past couple seasons, as I became more casual and busier. Still here though and really excited and hopeful to add some size to this core. Don't have a mind on position, just want them to get a real player... get the development project with the 2nd. :)

Same boat as you. Keldon reignited my love and excitement for the Spurs.

[Kurgan]

(trey is also about the same age as Clarke)

You forgot to mention that Trey is also a much worse player:

https://i.imgur.com/PMa0ufq.jpg

[Chinook]

40% shooter from 3. Interesting. Will he be available at 11?

Edit: talking about Toppin.

I think he will be available between 7 and 11. That Phoenix took Johnson so high last year makes me think they could take Toppin. The lack of a regular scouting process could also make teams fall back on production. Something tells me he'll be there, though. He's very much a solid four or 4/5 though, and that's not ideal. But he's also the kind of talent in my mind (which hasn't yet seen the video Dejounte linked) will warp the starting lineup around him. He just pops to me, even when it comes to things like sprinting down the court on the break. I think he could be the lead dog but also play well off the guards. Checks a lot of boxes.

[Dejounte]

You forgot to mention that Trey is also a much worse player:

https://i.imgur.com/PMa0ufq.jpg

Could our disjointed offense for most of the season and their (likely better) offense be the reason for the staggering difference? Just saying... We ran a ISO centric offense (Fuck DeMar) whilst they ran a transition heavy offense... Brandon's stats could be inflated.

[Chinook]

You forgot to mention that Trey is also a much worse player:

https://i.imgur.com/PMa0ufq.jpg

Trey's a fine enough player in my mind. I have nothing against him. But Ex continuing to use age as the absolute measure of potential is getting weird. Like clearly if Clarke is about as good as Lyles (for argument's sake) despite only having one off-season of NBA training and one year to adjust to the speed of the game, the lifestyle, the extra workload, going against bigger players etc, it just makes Clarke look way better. Even if there was nothing Brandon could do to improve physically or mechanically, just making mental adjustments will make him a better player than he is now.

[Chinook]

Could our disjointed offense for most of the season and their (likely better) offense be the reason for the staggering difference? Just saying... We ran a ISO centric offense (Fuck DeMar) whilst they ran a transition heavy offense... Brandon's stats could be inflated.

Clarke pretty much does on offense what Poeltl should be doing. He runs on the break, he cuts, he rolls, he finishes, he gets put-backs. That's definitely a style that can lead to better offensive stats. Lyles is just a completely different player, and his ability to space the floor definitely suggests he fits better with a DeRozan/Murray/Aldridge starting lineup than Clarke would. But had they run White, Walker, DeRozan, Clarke, Aldridge, I think Brandon would've been just fine. It would've taken some adjustment, but they could've stuck with that front court longer than they could with Poeltl and Aldridge together.

[SAGirl]

Could our disjointed offense for most of the season and their (likely better) offense be the reason for the staggering difference? Just saying... We ran a ISO centric offense (Fuck DeMar) whilst they ran a transition heavy offense... Brandon's stats could be inflated.
They play a faster style that is suited for his talent for sure but Brandon is talented. It's not all dunks, he can shoot some (though not in volume), and he's skilled with a hook shot, very efficient getting his shot against bigger guys and is a decent passer. He's a very solid player overall. He would look great with the young spurs. IMO, it was a miss by the Spurs. Not like a Jokic sized miss, or Jimmy Butler sized miss, but still a miss.

[SAGirl]

Clarke pretty much does on offense what Poeltl should be doing. He runs on the break, he cuts, he rolls, he finishes, he gets put-backs. That's definitely a style that can lead to better offensive stats. Lyles is just a completely different player, and his ability to space the floor definitely suggests he fits better with a DeRozan/Murray/Aldridge starting lineup than Clarke would. But had they run White, Walker, DeRozan, Clarke, Aldridge, I think Brandon would've been just fine. It would've taken some adjustment, but they could've stuck with that front court longer than they could with Poeltl and Aldridge together.
Yea, I agree with that too. He's definitely more offensively skilled than Jakob and also can shoot some. Not a guy that you can completely ignore at the 3 either. Has some kind of midrange game too, I have seen him take shots outside the paint, unlike traditional rim runner bigs or traditional Jakob type center.

[BackHome]

Kinda seeing the light regarding Centers who have no outside game are kinda obsolete- If Poodle was playing with Tony, Timmy, Manu he would have been a perfect fit big guy setting picks and grabbing rebounds. However, with this team we don’t have enough shooters/playmakers where you can go a whole game and only get get 2 or 6 points a game. I guess that will be a question that Poop and RC will have to answer if they don’t want him I hope they can work a trade.

[ragas]

Clarke pretty much does on offense what Poeltl should be doing. He runs on the break, he cuts, he rolls, he finishes, he gets put-backs. That's definitely a style that can lead to better offensive stats. Lyles is just a completely different player, and his ability to space the floor definitely suggests he fits better with a DeRozan/Murray/Aldridge starting lineup than Clarke would. But had they run White, Walker, DeRozan, Clarke, Aldridge, I think Brandon would've been just fine. It would've taken some adjustment, but they could've stuck with that front court longer than they could with Poeltl and Aldridge together.

If Clarke played for SA Murray still was here and Clarke wouldn't get the ball as much as in Memphis. There's a difference playing with Morant or Murray. Even Tyus Jones is a better passer than Murray.

"He runs on the break, he cuts, he rolls, he finishes, he gets put-backs." - That describes perfectly what Poeltl does, plus setting screens (he's the overall leader in screen assists in the bubble).

[JuneJive]

Who gives a fuck about Clarke.

[Chinook]

If Clarke played for SA Murray still was here and Clarke wouldn't get the ball as much as in Memphis. There's a difference playing with Morant or Murray. Even Tyus Jones is a better passer than Murray.

"He runs on the break, he cuts, he rolls, he finishes, he gets put-backs." - That describes perfectly what Poeltl does, plus setting screens (he's the overall leader in screen assists in the bubble).

Yes and no. It's true that when Poeltl scores, he scores in those ways. What he doesn't do is constantly look to score in those ways. Clarke is constantly putting pressure on teams by being so aggressive. That provides the vertical spacing needed to make non-shooters work. Especially as a back-up there's no reason why Poeltl should not have developed a play style where he's already running down the court full tilt and bullying guys for rebounds en route to dunks. Even Eubanks is better at that.

Here's a video about that:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fag2TT3UzG0

Hopefully at this point we can start to move on from the emphasis on Clarke in this thread. I brought him up basically to say that Toppin's age doesn't bother me and to introduce the idea that there are different level's of "ceilings" when talking about a player. The point was not to rehash the gripe from last year.

[objective]

Yes and no. It's true that when Poeltl scores, he scores in those ways. What he doesn't do is constantly look to score in those ways. Clarke is constantly putting pressure on teams by being so aggressive. That provides the vertical spacing needed to make non-shooters work. Especially as a back-up there's no reason why Poeltl should not have developed a play style where he's already running down the court full tilt and bullying guys for rebounds en route to dunks. Even Eubanks is better at that.

Here's a video about that:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fag2TT3UzG0

Hopefully at this point we can start to move on from the emphasis on Clarke in this thread. I brought him up basically to say that Toppin's age doesn't bother me and to introduce the idea that there are different level's of "ceilings" when talking about a player. The point was not to rehash the gripe from last year.

Good video, thanks

I'll have to watch more Toppin. I haven't watched a lot for 2 reasons, 1 of course that he was usually ranked as a top 6 pick, and 2 being that his defense looked incredibly bad.

But I suppose that if he could be a big offensive weapon that shouldn't be ignored. Spurs will need other ways to generate points than just the young guards running around. Maybe the pluses outweigh the minuses.

I'll also have to watch more Deni, likewise with him I haven't watched a lot because of how high he's usually been ranked and out of Spurs likely reach.

---

Back on Samanic, it's looking like if the Spurs didn't want the safer older role players like Clarke or Thybulle and wanted a young, raw potential guy, then maybe Bazley should have been the guy. 6 months younger than Samanic and doesn't turn the ball over 4 times per 36 which Samanic has managed to do in both the g-league and his limited NBA minutes.

[Kurgan]

Back on Samanic, it's looking like if the Spurs didn't want the safer older role players like Clarke or Thybulle and wanted a young, raw potential guy, then maybe Bazley should have been the guy. 6 months younger than Samanic and doesn't turn the ball over 4 times per 36 which Samanic has managed to do in both the g-league and his limited NBA minutes.

Another argument for Clarke or Thybulle over Samanic - they match Derrick White's timeline. Based on how terrible he's looked, Luka will need years before he's ready to be a rotation player. Hollinger was also unimpressed with him when he was reviewing D-League players a few months ago:

As for Samanic, the Spurs’ 2019 first-rounder has played heavy minutes for Austin but seems a long way away from being a good G League player, much less helping the varsity. Samanic is 19 and physically immature, so to an extent, these were known bugs when San Antonio selected him with the 19th pick. But Samanic has a mammoth turnover rate for a stretch big (20.6 percent) with few assists to compensate – he committed a dozen miscues in two games this weekend, with just one dime. He hasn’t been able to nail down the “stretch” part of his job description either (30.7 percent on 3s).

The good news for San Antonio is that 29th pick Keldon Johnson seems further along – the high-motor swingman is a straight-line driver with a big motor who had a 25-point outing against Sioux Falls on Thursday. He still needs to tighten up his outside shooting (26.5 percent on 23s) and find teammates more often rather than just driving to score, but the 20-year-old seems on a trajectory toward becoming a helpful player in the mid-term future.

[BackHome]

Who gives a fuck about Clarke.

[R. DeMurre]

Clarke had a better statistical season as a rookie in the NBA than Samanic did against G-Leaguers. Samanic was one of only two players with a negative Win Shares rating on a team with a 24-18 record, and had the worst Offensive Rating on the entire team. He'll need to improve dramatically next year to merely be a better-than-average G leaguer. Clark is already an impact player in the NBA, and will likely be better next year. Right now, I'm guessing the Spurs would be thrilled if Samanic ever has a Clarke-like year of 12 ppg, 6 rpg, and a +3.4 BPM.

[ragas]

Brandon Clarke won't win you a championship. You find players like him in free agency for cheap. So who cares? Spurs took a reach and we'll see how it pans out.

[objective]

Probably been discussed, but I think Milwaukee could be a spot for Rudy Gay.

Ilyasova and DJ Wilson after the turn of the new NBA season adds up money-wise and of course add in their pick they're getting from Indiana. Maybe they could even negotiate Ilyasova into moving his guarantee date back in return for a partial guarantee of 1-2 million.

Maybe Milwaukee will be desperate enough in what could be Giannis' last year to make that kind of move.

[Chinook]

Probably been discussed, but I think Milwaukee could be a spot for Rudy Gay.

Ilyasova and DJ Wilson after the turn of the new NBA season adds up money-wise and of course add in their pick they're getting from Indiana. Maybe they could even negotiate Ilyasova into moving his guarantee date back in return for a partial guarantee of 1-2 million.

Maybe Milwaukee will be desperate enough in what could be Giannis' last year to make that kind of move.

I don't know if the Spurs could get a pick for Gay. If they like Wilson, maybe that would have to be enough. Or maybe the Spurs would have to find something to toss into the deal like their pick and/or rights to overseas guys. As far as the guarantee date, I think the league was able to get all of those pushed back to five days after the player's team is eliminated, so the teams should be able to do the deal. Remember though that non-guaranteed money doesn't factor into trade salaries anymore. I haven't looked at they numbers, but maybe that deal couldn't work now?

[Chinook]

Brandon Clarke won't win you a championship. You find players like him in free agency for cheap. So who cares? Spurs took a reach and we'll see how it pans out.

You can literally say the same thing about Poeltl -- actually more so, because it's easier to find good centers for cheap now than good PFs. I'm perfectly happy to get off the Clarke tangent, but the idea that 12/6, high-efficiency and strong-impact role-players are a dime a dozen is just not right.

[ragas]

You can literally say the same thing about Poeltl -- actually more so, because it's easier to find good centers for cheap now than good PFs. I'm perfectly happy to get off the Clarke tangent, but the idea that 12/6, high-efficiency and strong-impact role-players are a dime a dozen is just not right.

Exactly. Poeltl was traded to the Spurs, not drafted by them.

[Chinook]

Exactly. Poeltl was traded to the Spurs, not drafted by them.

Um, he was traded as a key part in a deal for a superstar. Like we can argue that it was a horrible deal, but in no way was he filler in the exchange. If Poeltl can have that kind of swing value in a trade, how does it make sense to argue that a rookie who's already as good as him, is younger and is in a much better contract situation a meh player?

I just think people feel like 12/6 guys with Clarke's metrics grow on threes. They really don't. He'd've been on of the top guys on the Spurs with that production.

[ragas]

Um, he was traded as a key part in a deal for a superstar. Like we can argue that it was a horrible deal, but in no way was he filler in the exchange. If Poeltl can have that kind of swing value in a trade, how does it make sense to argue that a rookie who's already as good as him, is younger and is in a much better contract situation a meh player?

I just think people feel like 12/6 guys with Clarke's metrics grow on threes. They really don't. He'd've been on of the top guys on the Spurs with that production.

he was no key part and a 2nd year player, 22 years old. He was a filler that fit the bill best.
oh, btw: Clarke is not better than Poeltl.

[Dejounte]

We're still talking about Clarke in a thread about the 2020 draft pick?

[BackHome]

Ok question for Ragas and Chinook with regards to Precious Achiuwa do you see him as a good pick for us and who do you think is better him or Clarke?

[R. DeMurre]

Brandon Clarke won't win you a championship. You find players like him in free agency for cheap. So who cares? Spurs took a reach and we'll see how it pans out.

Few players drafted at #19 are going to win you a championship. I think the point most people are making here is that Clarke would have given immediate value, and Samanic definitely did not.

[Chinook]

he was no key part and a 2nd year player, 22 years old. He was a filler that fit the bill best.
oh, btw: Clarke is not better than Poeltl.

Yes he is or at least they're equal. Objectively, Clarke out played Poeltl this year.

Why do you think a guy drafted in the top 10 two seasons before is filler? Do you think the draft pick was filler too? Do you think Hill was filler in the Leonard trade too just because he was a third-year, 25-year-old?

[R. DeMurre]

You can literally say the same thing about Poeltl -- actually more so, because it's easier to find good centers for cheap now than good PFs. I'm perfectly happy to get off the Clarke tangent, but the idea that 12/6, high-efficiency and strong-impact role-players are a dime a dozen is just not right.

Yeah, sometimes people forget how rare it can be to find a legit strong impact player. There was a post the other day about Dejounte where someone said he won't be a star, but will only be a good role player like Andre Iguodala... if Dejounte plays with the impact of a prime AI at any point in the next few years, the Spurs will be absolutely thrilled.

[ragas]

Ok question for Ragas and Chinook with regards to Precious Achiuwa do you see him as a good pick for us and who do you think is better him or Clarke?

I don‘t know.

[Chinook]

Ok question for Ragas and Chinook with regards to Precious Achiuwa do you see him as a good pick for us and who do you think is better him or Clarke?

Did you mean to say Clarke? It's a weird comparison unless there are rumors that the Grizz want to trade Brandon for a late-lotto pick or something. It's just derailing the thread more.

In general, I'm fine drafting Precious. I don't know anything about him, but on paper he fills a need. Looking at the stats, the dude seem raw, and I wouldn't draft him over Toppin. But I still trust PatFO to do the right thing.

[Chinook]

Yeah, sometimes people forget how rare it can be to find a legit strong impact player. There was a post the other day about Dejounte where someone said he won't be a star, but will only be a good role player like Andre Iguodala... if Dejounte plays with the impact of a prime AI at any point in the next few years, the Spurs will be absolutely thrilled.

Prime Iggy was a star. No one on the team projects to be that good. If the Spurs found someone that good at 11, it'd be amazing. But yeah, Murray getting to be as good as GS Iggy would be amazing too. I think he can become a really good role-player and that that'd be valuable to the Spurs and well worth the pick and investment. But I don't think he'd get there mentally unless he is on a roster with objective stars who can humble him.

[Chinook]

Was looking at old footage of Spurs picks and ran into these highlights:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2nh0SYvPeE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2nh0SYvPeE

God I remember the hype surrounding this guy. I was right there at the front of the train creaming myself of his summer-league play and confident he'd be able to take over for Duncan as PF of the future. Still think he had the skill to be a good NBA player, especially back then when being a stretch-five was almost unheard of. But he never had the mentality to get it done. He looks a bit better than he did back then, but he was a guy who preferred to be a big fish in a small pond and let the game pass him by. Keep dominating those YMCA scrubs, Ryan.

[Dejounte]

Prime Iggy was a star. No one on the team projects to be that good. If the Spurs found someone that good at 11, it'd be amazing. But yeah, Murray getting to be as good as GS Iggy would be amazing too. I think he can become a really good role-player and that that'd be valuable to the Spurs and well worth the pick and investment. But I don't think he'd get there mentally unless he is on a roster with objective stars who can humble him.

I think him no longer being the "new kid on the block" and Keldon being seen as the next big thing will help him reflect on how much he needs to improve and maybe realize he is not as good as he thought he is when a new guy could just perform right away like Keldon has. His close relationship with Keldon may even help in this scenario since he less likely to see it as competition and moreso be on the supportive side. I think when Derrick was drafted, DJ held a competitive spirit to try to be better than Derrick but I think he has backed down on that.

R. DeMurre I was the guy who said DJ should aim to be an Iguodala type player instead of the Westbook type player he was probably aiming for

[tmtcsc]

Can we all agree the Spurs can move on from Murray and Metu? Forbes off the bench for spot minutes / shooting wouldn't be terrible. We just have to pray someone is foolish enough to bet on Murray's upside in a trade. Gawd, what a waste. Never liked that dude's game and he never amounted to much at all.

[BackHome]

I think him no longer being the "new kid on the block" and Keldon being seen as the next big thing will help him reflect on how much he needs to improve and maybe realize he is not as good as he thought he is when a new guy could just perform right away like Keldon has. His close relationship with Keldon may even help in this scenario since he less likely to see it as competition and moreso be on the supportive side. I think when Derrick was drafted, DJ held a competitive spirit to try to be better than Derrick but I think he has backed down on that.

R. DeMurre (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14577) I was the guy who said DJ should aim to be an Iguodala type player instead of the Westbook type player he was probably aiming for

He will never be as good as Iggy that just a plain fact. I think the best he could be would be to Green not as good as one on one defender but with better mid range. So if I am him I am telling Pop to move me to SG and working on my 3 ball and mid range all off season long.

[ragas]

Yes he is or at least they're equal. Objectively, Clarke out played Poeltl this year.

Why do you think a guy drafted in the top 10 two seasons before is filler? Do you think the draft pick was filler too? Do you think Hill was filler in the Leonard trade too just because he was a third-year, 25-year-old?

based on what? ppg? Lol

because they needed to make the salaries work. otherwise Poeltl would still be a Raptor

[R. DeMurre]

I think him no longer being the "new kid on the block" and Keldon being seen as the next big thing will help him reflect on how much he needs to improve and maybe realize he is not as good as he thought he is when a new guy could just perform right away like Keldon has. His close relationship with Keldon may even help in this scenario since he less likely to see it as competition and moreso be on the supportive side. I think when Derrick was drafted, DJ held a competitive spirit to try to be better than Derrick but I think he has backed down on that.

R. DeMurre (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14577) I was the guy who said DJ should aim to be an Iguodala type player instead of the Westbook type player he was probably aiming for

I don't remember the Westbrook analogy, but I think that's spot on. I honestly don't think anyone should use him as a model... The last thing the Spurs need is a high usage rate PG who takes way too many inefficient shots.

[Chinook]

based on what? ppg? Lol

Are you trying to troll now or something? Why is your base assumption that Poeltl was better that stats (raw, rate and impact), role and team success aren't enough evidence? It's not like Jakob made the All Star team or something to where you can point to some outside measure of his greater value. Moreover, why are you obsessed with continuing to make this a Clarke thread? Literally everyone else has moved on to other topics, and you're here loling at people without providing anything for your claims. For example:


because they needed to make the salaries work. otherwise Poeltl would still be a Raptor

This is just a lie. They didn't need Jakob to make the salaries work. Why do you just keep saying shit off the top of your head and calling it a rebuttal?

[Chinook]

I think him no longer being the "new kid on the block" and Keldon being seen as the next big thing will help him reflect on how much he needs to improve and maybe realize he is not as good as he thought he is when a new guy could just perform right away like Keldon has. His close relationship with Keldon may even help in this scenario since he less likely to see it as competition and moreso be on the supportive side. I think when Derrick was drafted, DJ held a competitive spirit to try to be better than Derrick but I think he has backed down on that.

R. DeMurre (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14577) I was the guy who said DJ should aim to be an Iguodala type player instead of the Westbook type player he was probably aiming for

I don't agree with your projection. I think Murray sees Johnson's star rising and wants to overcome him. He'll press harder, trying more and more to be the young face of the franchise, and as the offense moves away from him more, he'll pass less and less in cases where he won't get an assist and he'll throw up more one-on-one shots. He's not going to be humbled by a guy coming up behind him. He'll only be humbled by being under and objectively dominant star like Lebron. Otherwise, he's just going to keep trying to be better than everyone at the expense of being a good role-player.

[Chinook]

Murray models his game after Crawford. I don't see how that's even debatable. I think Pop's the only thing keeping DeJounte from going full chucker. Especially for Seattle kids, Crawford was really influential, as much as any player outside Lebron and Kobe.

[Dejounte]

He will never be as good as Iggy that just a plain fact. I think the best he could be would be to Green not as good as one on one defender but with better mid range. So if I am him I am telling Pop to move me to SG and working on my 3 ball and mid range all off season long.

That's fine. I merely said that's what he should aim for because of his style of play. Green was hardly a ball handler. Iggy was a secondary playmaker, chose his spots to shoot, and played good defense. All I'm saying is he should stop trying to challenge everybody like a star would do because he is far from one. Once he realizes to stick to things not above him, he can be solid. He just need to "keep it simple, stupid" vs going for the highlight pass or crossover. He's like the dumb kid who is still stuck on his street ball days

[Dejounte]

I don't agree with your projection. I think Murray sees Johnson's star rising and wants to overcome him. He'll press harder, trying more and more to be the young face of the franchise, and as the offense moves away from him more, he'll pass less and less in cases where he won't get an assist and he'll throw up more one-on-one shots. He's not going to be humbled by a guy coming up behind him. He'll only be humbled by being under and objectively dominant star like Lebron. Otherwise, he's just going to keep trying to be better than everyone at the expense of being a good role-player.

A recent video of Murray praising Johnson in front of his face saying "thats the player of the game, man" tells me otherwise. He had this look also of a proud father of his son. I'll try to dig it up. This was like last week.

[Chinook]

A recent video of Murray praising Johnson in front of his face saying "thats the player of the game, man" tells me otherwise. He had this look also of a proud father of his son. I'll try to dig it up. This was like last week.

I think you confused what I said for me saying Murray's a bad teammate or locker-room guy. DJM's not a crab. He doesn't want his teammates to be worse just to pump himself up. But his belief in himself as a star isn't going to change just because there are other good players on his team. He's going to see himself as the team's leader and be happy his supporting cast looks good. That realization that he's actually part of Johnson's cast won't hit him for a long time.

[ragas]

Are you trying to troll now or something? Why is your base assumption that Poeltl was better that stats (raw, rate and impact), role and team success aren't enough evidence? It's not like Jakob made the All Star team or something to where you can point to some outside measure of his greater value. Moreover, why are you obsessed with continuing to make this a Clarke thread? Literally everyone else has moved on to other topics, and you're here loling at people without providing anything for your claims. For example:



This is just a lie. They didn't need Jakob to make the salaries work. Why do you just keep saying shit off the top of your head and calling it a rebuttal?

No lie. You forget Kawhis trade kicker. We‘ll see what Clarke & Poeltl will achieve.

[ragas]

And Samanic too of course.

[SAGirl]

I don't agree with your projection. I think Murray sees Johnson's star rising and wants to overcome him. He'll press harder, trying more and more to be the young face of the franchise, and as the offense moves away from him more, he'll pass less and less in cases where he won't get an assist and he'll throw up more one-on-one shots. He's not going to be humbled by a guy coming up behind him. He'll only be humbled by being under and objectively dominant star like Lebron. Otherwise, he's just going to keep trying to be better than everyone at the expense of being a good role-player.
I never b4 saw him as selfish frankly. I just thought he was not a talented passer. He didn't strike me as a guy who wouldn't pass or surrender the ball, he was trying not to TO first of all and then trying to get LMA the ball where he wanted or some set that Pop wanted. He wasn't talented enough to be creating plays on his own. Apparently he has been given the green light to branch out in the bubble. So I am hoping this is just a "bubble" phenomenon and that he can continue to develop away from selfish play, but we will see. I'd imagine the Spurs would stop that if it becomes a problem, but I don't know.

[Chinook]

I never b4 saw him as selfish frankly. I just thought he was not a talented passer. He didn't strike me as a guy who wouldn't pass or surrender the ball, he was trying not to TO first of all and then trying to get LMA the ball where he wanted or some set that Pop wanted. He wasn't talented enough to be creating plays on his own. Apparently he has been given the green light to branch out in the bubble. So I am hoping this is just a "bubble" phenomenon and that he can continue to develop away from selfish play, but we will see. I'd imagine the Spurs would stop that if it becomes a problem, but I don't know.

I don't think it's about being selfish per se. I think it's about "showing what he can do". From what I see, if Murray is going to continue to start and Johnson starts with him, Murray's going to be at best the third option behind White and Johnson (this is assuming DeRozan and Aldridge move on). I think as his opportunities shrink, he's going to try harder and harder to make the most of those opportunities. This is actually a pretty natural result to players not getting touches. Most players want chances to score, and while they're fine passing the ball in a BG-style offense where the best man is the open man, if they never get good finishing opportunities, they'll try to create some.

I also think you can't really be a star if you aren't selfish to some extent. You might pass and get a lot of assists, but it pretty much comes hand-in-hand with being a star that you think you need to control the ball as much as possible. I have little doubt Murray sees himself as a future star, and it's going to be hard to change his mind. I think he'd be perfectly happy if Johnson, Walker, White and anyone else also became stars, so long as he wasn't just a role-player.

[Chinook]

No lie. You forget Kawhis trade kicker. We‘ll see what Clarke & Poeltl will achieve.

It's still a lie. The trade worked even with the kicker. And this is ignoring that there was other filler that could've been in the deal like CJ Miles who basically didn't play that year outside of OG having that episode with his father. That would've even out the salaries completely and given the Spurs a guy at a position of need. Instead, they took Poeltl and paid Toronto $5 Million while running without any legit wing depth.

[TD 21]

Probably been discussed, but I think Milwaukee could be a spot for Rudy Gay.

Ilyasova and DJ Wilson after the turn of the new NBA season adds up money-wise and of course add in their pick they're getting from Indiana. Maybe they could even negotiate Ilyasova into moving his guarantee date back in return for a partial guarantee of 1-2 million.

Maybe Milwaukee will be desperate enough in what could be Giannis' last year to make that kind of move.

Not bad, but the Bucks aren't adding a 1st to that. As Chinook said, the Spurs would have to view Wilson as the value. He's been underwhelming, but still relatively young and hasn't received much of a chance. Plays a position of need and retains intriguing tools, so could be worth a flyer.

If they don't win the championship and feel they have to make a significant move to convince Antetokounmpo to re-sign, they should try to make the following 3 team trade . . .

To Bucks: Paul, Nader
To Lakers: Bledsoe
To Thunder: Pacers 1st, Hill, Ilyasova, Wilson, Caldwell-Pope, Bradley

[ragas]

It's still a lie. The trade worked even with the kicker. And this is ignoring that there was other filler that could've been in the deal like CJ Miles who basically didn't play that year outside of OG having that episode with his father. That would've even out the salaries completely and given the Spurs a guy at a position of need. Instead, they took Poeltl and paid Toronto $5 Million while running without any legit wing depth.

Come on. CJ Miles? That's ridiculous. There's a difference between a "key part" and an acceptable filler. Derozan & Kawhi were the key parts of the trade, maybe Danny Green (for Toronto) and the late 1st rounder (for the Spurs). If you say that Poeltl was a key part, you're so wrong as someone can be. Even if you repeat once again "It's a lie". The Spurs took - as a filler - what the Raptors were willing to give away and what was acceptable for the Spurs.

btw. Actually we were talking about drafting and the question if you take a high floor guy or a high ceiling guy. Apparently the Spurs took who they think has a high ceiling. They may be wrong or they may be right. We'll see. But I don't critizize them for wanting to take a flyer at #19 instead of taking the safe pick.

[ragas]

Ok question for Ragas and Chinook with regards to Precious Achiuwa do you see him as a good pick for us and who do you think is better him or Clarke?

I looked at his draft profile. I would prefer a 4 (small ball 5) or 3/4, who can shoot. I can't see Achiuwa filling this need. He's no good 3p-shooter in college and his bad free-throw-percentage makes no hope either. At 6-9 he's undersized for a 5, but he has a 7-2 wingspan, a great motor, is mobile and plays good defense. His best position may be at the 5. If Poeltl leaves he's an option with a similar skillset for the Spurs, but I'm not sure I would take him at #11. I see him in the #15-#20 range.
@Clarke: I would prefer Achiuwa, because he's longer, younger and has more potential as a defender.

At #11 I would go for Nesmith, Williams, Bey (guessing Toppin, Avdija, Vassell aren‘t available)

[DAF86]

So, after doing a bit of research and watching some tape, I came up with my top 6 + Homer bonus list:

1) Devin Vassell - F - 6'7" - 6'10" wingspan - 19 years

Unsexisest of picks, but seems like a pretty safe bet for a 3 and D guy that could start playing right away.

2) Obi Toppin - PF/C - 6'9" - 7'2" wingspan - 22 years

Sexier (est?) pick. Terriffic athlete and very polished all around offensive game. It's probably more of a center than a PF in today's NBA. I bet my house the Warriors pick him to start at center next season.

3) Patrick Williams - F - 6'8" - 6'11" wingspan - 18 years

Only thing keeping him from being my number one choice is that he seems a bit of a stiff trying to move laterally on defense.

4) Deni Avdija - F - 6'8" - 6'9" wingspan - 19 years

Could have the highest ceiling in the entire draft. Could also be a total bust. Shitty wingspan for his size.

5) Saddiq Bey - F - 6'8" - 7'0" wingspan - 21 years

Another unsexy 3 and D pick. I love me some unsexy 3 and D picks, tbh.

6) Isaak Okoro - SG/SF - 6'6" - 6'9" wingspan - 19 years

Raw athletic freak. From what I read, projected to go higher than 11.

Homer Bonus: Leandro Bolmaro - G - 6'7" - 6'9" wingspan - 19 years

Projected to go late first, early second. If somehow he makes it all the way to the Spurs second round pick, we should go for it to keep that Argie tradition going :flag:. 6'7" guy that can play Point Guard. Great lateral quickness to defend smaller guys. Needs to work on the consistency of his shot.

[DAF86]

https://youtu.be/NrfhjfxhZ_g

Here's a 1 hour and 30 minute video of the good and bad of Devin Vassell. After watching this, i just want to reiterate how much I dislike him as a prospect. He has awful shot selection, almost no feel for the game on offense, his form looks terrible, he runs around on offense like he doesnt know where to be and ends up killing the spacing and bumping into his own teammates. Dude is dumb as a rock on offense. Compared to his teammate, Pat Williams, he looks like a scrub. Pat is also about 2" taller than him.

Why do you say that? From what I read, he shot mostly from spot ups. On his first year he took only one off the dribble shot and on his second year 30 something. Have you seen many games of him?

[Dejounte]

Why do you say that? From what I read, he shot mostly from spot ups. On his first year he took only one off the dribble shot and on his second year 30 something. Have you seen many games of him?

Watch the video and you will see.

I just saw your post above and you had him #1...omg. Spend time watching players and not relying on reading bad scouting reports or stay off player eval...

Bro dont even reply to me, just wait a couple years and you'll find im right about Vassell... Ive learned youre the really argumentative type and ive got no energy for it... A friend committed suicide and i barely had sleep

[Dejounte]

Also, anyone who thinks Saddiq Bey is a decent prospect literally looks at only three things: age, position, and length. Watch the guy play and his terrible shooting form. This dude is literally not better than DeMarre Carroll.

[ragas]

Also, anyone who thinks Saddiq Bey is a decent prospect literally looks at only three things: age, position, and length. Watch the guy play and his terrible shooting form. This dude is literally not better than DeMarre Carroll.

Spurs Carroll or Hawks Carroll? I would take Hawks Carroll every day.

[Dejounte]

Spurs Carroll or Hawks Carroll? I would take Hawks Carroll every day.

Spurs

[ragas]

Spurs

Oh... Jokes aside. Bey is no lottery pick, but still a first rounder around 20-25

[Excessive Egotist]

It's rumored that teams will be selling first round picks this year because of financial conditions and the perceived weak draft. I doubt Spurs will want to buy or that many teams, if any, will be buyers. But the rights to Mulitinov for a pick in the 20s?

[duncan2150]

Also, anyone who thinks Saddiq Bey is a decent prospect literally looks at only three things: age, position, and length. Watch the guy play and his terrible shooting form. This dude is literally not better than DeMarre Carroll.

He shoots nearly 6 3pt per game at 45% so il don't think the shooting form is something to be worried of.

[Excessive Egotist]

Spurs fans should really want things to break in such a way that they finish 10th in draft order after today. Their odds of top 4 pick increase from 9.4% to 13.9% in that scenario. A 9%-14% chance at pick 4 makes Edwards or Wiseman or Toppin gettable. Drafting 4th is also an attractive trade piece, either to move out of draft (Ben Simmons?) or to move down to collect multiple picks.

[buttsR4rebounding]

It's rumored that teams will be selling first round picks this year because of financial conditions and the perceived weak draft. I doubt Spurs will want to buy or that many teams, if any, will be buyers. But the rights to Mulitinov for a pick in the 20s?

If you can get a future 2nd rounder do it. He isn’t coming over anytime soon and he wants a lot more money than the Spurs will ever pay. Get what you can and move on.

[SAGirl]

A friend committed suicide and i barely had sleep

sorry to hear that.
I'd have to say the levels of stress this year are through the roof.

[spurspl]

Spurs fans should really want things to break in such a way that they finish 10th in draft order after today. Their odds of top 4 pick increase from 9.4% to 13.9% in that scenario. A 9%-14% chance at pick 4 makes Edwards or Wiseman or Toppin gettable. Drafting 4th is also an attractive trade piece, either to move out of draft (Ben Simmons?) or to move down to collect multiple picks.

i also been thinkin bout ben simmons but then i realized that we already have an overvalued pg with a terrible contract who cant shoot from deep (DJM<333333333)

[DAF86]

Watch the video and you will see.

I just saw your post above and you had him #1...omg. Spend time watching players and not relying on reading bad scouting reports or stay off player eval...

Bro dont even reply to me, just wait a couple years and you'll find im right about Vassell... Ive learned youre the really argumentative type and ive got no energy for it... A friend committed suicide and i barely had sleep

WE WILL SEE!

[DAF86]

Also, anyone who thinks Saddiq Bey is a decent prospect literally looks at only three things: age, position, and length. Watch the guy play and his terrible shooting form. This dude is literally not better than DeMarre Carroll.

You know who also had a terrible shooting form coming out of college? Kawhi Leonard. That didn't work out too bad, did it?

Also, Bey is one of the best shooters in the entire draft. Shoots like 45% on a shit load of volume.

[spurspl]

You know who also had a terrible shooting form coming out of college? Kawhi Leonard. That didn't work out too bad, did it?

Also, Bey is one of the best shooters in the entire draft. Shoots like 45% on a shit load of volume.


ppl should not care about shooting form if it works

[Excessive Egotist]

Spurs fans should really want things to break in such a way that they finish 10th in draft order after today. Their odds of top 4 pick increase from 9.4% to 13.9% in that scenario. A 9%-14% chance at pick 4 makes Edwards or Wiseman or Toppin gettable. Drafting 4th is also an attractive trade piece, either to move out of draft (Ben Simmons?) or to move down to collect multiple picks.

Excellent afternoon.

[playblair]

cole anthony or jaden mcdaniels anyone else is a bust

[Truth4sale$]

I dont know why anyone here would not like Saddiq Bey on the Spurs. He is a mature overachiever, legit 6'8, with some guard skills, and a very good 3pt shot. He actually can guard the post or perimeter. He came from a team oriented winning program. He is basically a young Rudy Gay with defensive skills. I think everyone should be happy with a young Rudy Gay. Maybe he is not worth pick 10 or 11 because that should be someone you think has star potential but he will definetley be an above average player., If the Spurs can get another pick, I say that's who they need to target because he checks off alot of boxes for them. He is a NBA ready 6th man Rookie.

I

[Dejounte]

I dont know why anyone here would not like Saddiq Bey on the Spurs. He is a mature overachiever, legit 6'8, with some guard skills, and a very good 3pt shot. He actually can guard the post or perimeter. He came from a team oriented winning program. He is basically a young Rudy Gay with defensive skills. I think everyone should be happy with a young Rudy Gay. Maybe he is not worth pick 10 or 11 because that should be someone you think has star potential but he will definetley be an above average player., If the Spurs can get another pick, I say that's who they need to target because he checks off alot of boxes for them. He is a NBA ready 6th man Rookie.

I

Watch him play and then make statements like that. Dont just focus on the highlights. Watch the lowlights


https://youtu.be/GsoyP9N-N2A

[DAF86]

Watch him play and then make statements like that. Dont just focus on the highlights. Watch the lowlights


https://youtu.be/GsoyP9N-N2A

45% from 3 on 6 attempts per game isn't a highlight, yet you would rather fixate on his shooting form (which really isn't that bad) than on two college years of solid results from 3.

[DAF86]

Saddiq's weaknesses come from his playmaking abilities. If you draft him, you won't draft him to be a primary option, you will draft him to be your 3 and D player for the next 10 years. On the 3 and D role, he checks all the boxes.

[Mugen]

Wrong thread

[BatManu20]

It’s official. Spurs will select no worse than 11th in the upcoming draft. They have a 9.4% chance at a top-4 pick. They have a 2% chance at first overall.

[Chinook]

It’s official. Spurs will select no worse than 11th in the upcoming draft. They have a 9.4% chance at a top-4 pick. They have a 2% chance at first overall.

They can still select all the way down to 14th. There are about as good of odds of them dropping to 12 as there are of them getting 1-4

[tim_duncan_fan]

CIA Pop with the stealth tank. He kept the horses in the stable the whole race then lettem run round a lil bit to prep for next season. Ya gotta RESPECK it!

[Chinook]

No thats not how it works.... but ok...

Unless the lottery literally works differently this year, all of the teams between 12 and 14 can move up into the top-four. If they do so, the Spurs would fall down to 14.

Basically, there's a 78-percent chance SA drafts at 11, a 9-percent chance they move into the top four and a 13-percent chance they move down. Of that 13 percent, almost all of it is for them to move to 12, as the odds of two teams jumping in front of SA are remarkably low. The chances all three jump is so low as to be almost not worth discussion, but it's mathematically possible.

(And again, there is a caveat that the numbers I gave assume the chances the teams have are IID variables. That's not true. The lotto results are contingent on each other (so a team isn't going to get the first, second and third picks). That doesn't matter, because the effect it has on the math is moot. Like it's possible for all four of the teams to move up, meaning that a very small part of the chances the Spurs draft at 14 are tied into a scenario where SA is in the top four. But that's literally a 1/125k scenario.)

[bluebellmaniac]

6 days until the lottery!

[Dex]

It’s official. Spurs will select no worse than 11th in the upcoming draft. They have a 9.4% chance at a top-4 pick. They have a 2% chance at first overall.

I must be missing something here...Spurs have the 12th worst record. Why are we drafting 11th?