Jimmer Fredette to the Spurs (Update: Mostly Non-Guaranteed Training Camp Deal) [Archive] - Page 3

Old School 44

07-23-2015, 10:04 AM

Well I see Jimmer sticking as this signing is obvious to limit both Parker's and Manu's playing time this season. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't be surprise if Manu only suits up for 50 games this season, injured or not, and not even travel on some road trips.

Last year, Manu had to play like 25-30 nights for almost two months because of all the Spurs injuries. Because of this, he didn't have much left in the tank for the playoffs. Signing someone like Jimmer, ensures that Manu and Parker will be well rested in the Playoffs.

Would be very interesting if the Spurs do this. IMO they have the depth to do it. It's amazing how many teams have openly adopted the "rest" strategy Pop employs throughout the season. This would take it to another level.

look_at_g_shred

07-23-2015, 10:09 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSE6MxhHKiU
This is the perfect example of Green taking the night off on defense. That was just putrid. Your better than that buddy.

Vito Corleone

07-23-2015, 10:10 AM

You guys might need to understand, Jimmer is a guard that can play both guard positions. He is a guy that reminds me of Rex Chapman from the Phoenix Suns (no white comparisons jokes). He is the perfect third guard to have in a rotation, and he can start at either guard spot from time to time.

The best part is, next year he is cheap. Hell, I hope if finishes a long career with San Antonio.

I love Patty and who knows about this kid we got from Sacramento, but Jimmer is also the perfect guard to have out there if we are going to space the floor for our big men.

Yes Golden State will abuse him on offense as will most athletic point guards, but he is a situational player that can really kill a defense.

And as someone else stated earlier, We Stacked.

Imagine this lineup, Duncan Aldridge in the low post surrounded by Jimmer Green and Bonner. Our low post scoring will be unstoppable since no one can afford to sag off their man or they get burned.

here is my favorite lineup.

We need a 3. So we put Bonner at the 5 Kwahi at the 4, Green at the 3 Jimmer at the 2 and Mills at the 1. We getting a 3 off. And it's going to be a high percentage shot.

Chinook

07-23-2015, 11:00 AM

Imagine this lineup, Duncan Aldridge in the low post surrounded by Jimmer Green and Bonner.

That sounds terrible, honestly.

BlackSilver

07-23-2015, 11:13 AM

Well I see Jimmer sticking as this signing is obvious to limit both Parker's and Manu's playing time this season. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't be surprise if Manu only suits up for 50 games this season, injured or not, and not even travel on some road trips.

Last year, Manu had to play like 25-30 nights for almost two months because of all the Spurs injuries. Because of this, he didn't have much left in the tank for the playoffs. Signing someone like Jimmer, ensures that Manu and Parker will be well rested in the Playoffs.
Except that Manu seems to need to play a lot to get into rhythm and stay in it. At least regularly with his minutes pared back.

Aztecfan03

07-23-2015, 12:04 PM

Tha never happened.
There was definitely some trash talk between the two in college.

Aztecfan03

07-23-2015, 12:21 PM

http://i.imgur.com/KFmMYDL.gifv

(Dang .gifv files won't embed! Stupid technology)
kawhi should be laughing just a split second later in that.

Aztecfan03

07-23-2015, 12:23 PM

ceperez

07-23-2015, 12:29 PM

Before and after for Kawhi Leonard after 4 years with the Spurs:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/spurs/111210_leonard_400x300.jpg

http://cdn1.bloguin.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/27/2013/09/USATSI_7236147_164908624_lowres.jpg

Before and after for Jimmer Fredette after 4 years elsewhere:

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/jimmer-fredette.jpg

https://thebasketballsociety.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/jimmer.jpg?w=610

Hmmm.... Spurs must be juicing their players!

kobyz

07-23-2015, 12:31 PM

If they want this type of player, not better was to sign that bartnes from SL?

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-23-2015, 01:29 PM

Except that Manu seems to need to play a lot to get into rhythm and stay in it. At least regularly with his minutes pared back.

As long as he starts playing around late January, he will be fine. I expect the rest to come earlier in the season as Pop is going to let the young guys get their feet early.

ceperez

07-23-2015, 01:39 PM

As long as he starts playing around late January, he will be fine. I expect the rest to come earlier in the season as Pop is going to let the young guys get their feet early.

Need to consider that Manu needs to get some reps playing with the new guys. He needs to get down the right timing, strengths of the receiving players and where/when best to place the ball. Manu is one of the main playmakers and it could be disastrous if he doesn't have a feel of what Aldridge or West is going to do.

Arcadian

07-23-2015, 01:52 PM

Spurs = World All-star team

littlecoyotecoin

07-23-2015, 01:53 PM

Except that Manu seems to need to play a lot to get into rhythm and stay in it. At least regularly with his minutes pared back.

So, you build him to a crescendo in the last 30-40 games of the season. Fixed. It's a long season.

SAGirl

07-23-2015, 02:09 PM

This is the perfect example of Green taking the night off on defense. That was just putrid. Your better than that buddy.
Wow, you are right. Danny consistently screwing up here.

SAGirl

07-23-2015, 02:11 PM

Except that Manu seems to need to play a lot to get into rhythm and stay in it. At least regularly with his minutes pared back.
Yea, he takes a long time to get back into form from injury. The older you are, the harder it is to gain your peak athletic shape and stamina back. He has to play with some regularity.

T Park

07-23-2015, 02:16 PM

I was referring to a potential Mills trade, where that big would be the return.

That's a hell of a fantasy land you live in.

BlackSilver

07-23-2015, 02:38 PM

So, you build him to a crescendo in the last 30-40 games of the season. Fixed. It's a long season.

I'm a huge Manu homer, but Manu hasn't stayed healthy for 30-40 games, and really what would be 60-70 games including playoffs in your scenario, in a long long time :bang. Except for the time he broke his elbow in the last regular season game, he seems to come down with something about 30 games into the season and then it lingers for a long time, screwing any shot at getting into rhythm. In my purely subjective opinion, I don't think you can just put him in bubble wrap until January and then unwrap up and expect good results. He needs to play early and often. Only thing I can think of is to limit his minutes even more, especially in the second of b2b games, and perhaps not play him some of those insane 4 games in 5 night stretches. And maybe get him a personal fitness trainer and prescribe a diet of no burgers, bats, dunks, or Brazilian steakhouses.

littlecoyotecoin

07-23-2015, 03:06 PM

Yea, he takes a long time to get back into form from injury. The older you are, the harder it is to gain your peak athletic shape and stamina back. He has to play with some regularity.

Total over-reaction. Play him limited minutes first 40 games. Build him to crescendo in last 40 games. It's going to be just fine.

(intended as reply to B&S)

bic50

07-23-2015, 03:09 PM

Jimmer actually killed Kawhi in the matchup

http://youtu.be/DlDPwcwLu2o
Wrong game dummy

littlecoyotecoin

07-23-2015, 03:09 PM

I'm a huge Manu homer, but Manu hasn't stayed healthy for 30-40 games, and really what would be 60-70 games including playoffs in your scenario, in a long long time :bang. Except for the time he broke his elbow in the last regular season game, he seems to come down with something about 30 games into the season and then it lingers for a long time, screwing any shot at getting into rhythm. In my purely subjective opinion, I don't think you can just put him in bubble wrap until January and then unwrap up and expect good results. He needs to play early and often. Only thing I can think of is to limit his minutes even more, especially in the second of b2b games, and perhaps not play him some of those insane 4 games in 5 night stretches. And maybe get him a personal fitness trainer and prescribe a diet of no burgers, bats, dunks, or Brazilian steakhouses.

...you just explained exactly why he should NOT play early and often ( at least not for many minutes ), he gets injured...he's old.

Bruno

07-23-2015, 05:16 PM

Unlike some of you, I really don't see Pop playing Fredette at the PG spot. He will be an undersized SG whose role will be to bring a coring punch form the end of the bench with some 3 pointers.

MultiTroll

07-23-2015, 05:20 PM

Unlike some of you, I really don't see Pop playing Fredette at the PG spot. He will be an undersized SG whose role will be to bring a coring punch form the end of the bench with some 3 pointers.
Do you think he will team with Bonner to core pears as well as cherries and apples for the PPopper after game bashes?
Cause i really love pears.
ElNono said additionally some dynomite recipies including red ingrediants have been cooked up since the signing of Bonbon.

MultiTroll

07-23-2015, 05:28 PM

undersized SG whose role will be to bring a coring punch form the end of the bench with some 3 pointers.
Think he will be encouraged by Pop to have a Patty and Gary Neal type attitude, that being chuck it up at will?
Like when Pop got on Barrys case for not shooting.
Shoot!

I haven't seen enough of Jimmy in the NBA to see how often he chucks pre Spurs.

timvp

07-23-2015, 05:58 PM

Unlike some of you, I really don't see Pop playing Fredette at the PG spot. He will be an undersized SG whose role will be to bring a coring punch form the end of the bench with some 3 pointers.

Agreed. No way Jimmer is a point guard. Patty is barely a point guard and he makes Jimmer look like John Stockton. At best, Jimmer at point guard would work out about as well as RMJ at point guard. In other words, struggle to bring the ball up the court and then either hand the ball of to Manu or run the world's simplest high pick-and-roll.

I'd put the point guard depth chart as:

Parker
Mills
McCallum
Ginobili
Simmons
Fredette

Spurtacular

07-23-2015, 06:12 PM

There was definitely some trash talk between the two in college.

I watched the games, and I never saw it. For that matter, I never saw Jimmer directly trash talk anyone in college or the pros. I know there's that GIF of Kawhi talking like a jack-ass. But that's not cos Jimmer was trash talking.

Spurtacular

07-23-2015, 06:14 PM

Agreed. No way Jimmer is a point guard. Patty is barely a point guard and he makes Jimmer look like John Stockton. At best, Jimmer at point guard would work out about as well as RMJ at point guard. In other words, struggle to bring the ball up the court and then either hand the ball of to Manu or run the world's simplest high pick-and-roll.

I'd put the point guard depth chart as:

Parker
Mills
McCallum
Ginobili
Simmons
Fredette

Jimmer can be slowed; but he gets the ball up the court. And he's great in the pick n' roll. Also, he can pull up and just nail a three on a sleeping guard. Giving Jimmer some minutes at PG is not gonna be a problem offensively. The concern is always going to be his defense; and that concern isn't gonna change based on whether he plays the 2 or the 1.

Spurtacular

07-23-2015, 06:19 PM

Gonzaga was a top twenty team that Jimmer dismantled in the tourney. Of course, the committee manipulated it so that the two so-called mid majors would be playing earlier in the tournament to eliminate serious competish. You know how they do it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6mqFMdhDe4

ElNono

07-23-2015, 06:31 PM

Kinda like Green, like Mills, like Baynes, like SJax. C'mon, man. Jimmer is very talented offensively. He reminds me of Patty 2.0. Shooters like him mesh very well in the Spurs system.

Not really, none of them were a top 10 pick in the draft. Those guys normally get the benefit of the doubt.

ElNono

07-23-2015, 06:33 PM

Do you think he will team with Bonner to core pears as well as cherries and apples for the PPopper after game bashes?
Cause i really love pears.
ElNono said additionally some dynomite recipies including red ingrediants have been cooked up since the signing of Bonbon.

We're already scheduling an event to celebrate the Jimmer Jam... will keep you posted.

Aztecfan03

07-23-2015, 06:39 PM

Nathan89

07-23-2015, 06:47 PM

Before and after for Kawhi Leonard after 4 years with the Spurs:

Before and after for Jimmer Fredette after 4 years elsewhere:

Hmmm.... Spurs must be juicing their players!

Jimmer was already strong coming out of college. He got 14 bench reps at the combine and Kawhi got 3.

Aztecfan03

07-23-2015, 06:48 PM

I watched the games, and I never saw it. For that matter, I never saw Jimmer directly trash talk anyone in college or the pros. I know there's that GIF of Kawhi talking like a jack-ass. But that's not cos Jimmer was trash talking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4VdRzBp6aQ

Starts at 3:23

“Stop talking trash! Stop talking trash!” Fredette yelled..."What are you going to do about it? Huh? Huh? Do something; I dare you." “I’m not going to repeat anything that (Leonard) said,” Fredette told the media. “But he was excited that they won. He decided to say some things. I’m not going to back down. I said a couple things as well.” :lol

http://www.thedailyaztec.com/2011/03/leonard-white-proved-jimmer-is-human/

Spurtacular

07-23-2015, 07:30 PM

So we put Bonner at the 5 Kwahi at the 4, Green at the 3 Jimmer at the 2 and Mills at the 1. We getting a 3 off. And it's going to be a high percentage shot.

That might be the ultimate small ball line-up. We could see that in a game that the Spurs are up 15 or more...

Spurtacular

07-23-2015, 07:39 PM

Spurtacular

07-23-2015, 07:42 PM

Did you mean Jimmer makes Patty look like Stockton?

I think he did; to which, I disagree. Jimmer never has got his assist numbers up; but he looked like Steve Nash on some passing plays in his rookie season especially.

BTW, Patty was a great facilitator in college. The Spurs decided he need to be more of a shoot first guard though.

BatManu20

07-23-2015, 07:46 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56AnXbo4D98

tholdren

07-23-2015, 08:12 PM

Big College Star goes pro...

http://thumbs.boa.ulximg.com/public/articles/57/5_1385440157_43a438faaad6e29daf05c29c8d073987.jpg
Sad part is if he would have gone to san antonio he would be a better version of bonner. Instead he wound up on a trash organizations. You can't take a team player and put him on a garbage team and expect him to produce. All players have a niche and their team either positively or negatively impacts his attributes. Stop giving college poy to owners of ppg

timvp

07-23-2015, 08:17 PM

Did you mean Jimmer makes Patty look like Stockton?

Yeah, thanks bra.

bic50

07-23-2015, 08:20 PM

I don't know that I'd qualify that as trash talk. Leonard was the one talking. The fact that Jimmer didn't back down doesn't really qualify as trash talk necessarily...

Honestly, I wish Jimmer would do more talking like he did there. Too many times in the pros, he has not taken the opportunity to get in an opponent's head. Frankly, many NBA players have fragile psyches. If you talk and pop a couple in their face, they're in your pocket. He should learn how emotionally destabalize players at this level. It's been a real weakness for him. Too much Mr. Nice Guy out there.
Theres a few stories going around about what happened. Some saying jimmer started the trash talking and kawhi was responding to him. But apparently they are friends and kawhi stood up for jimmer on his struggles in the nba. Saying something along the lines that hes a hard worker and talented and just needs a chance.

gospursgojas

07-23-2015, 09:37 PM

Big College Star goes pro...

http://thumbs.boa.ulximg.com/public/articles/57/5_1385440157_43a438faaad6e29daf05c29c8d073987.jpg

I remember when the NBA tried to change to those stupid balls.

Spurtacular

07-23-2015, 10:26 PM

Theres a few stories going around about what happened. Some saying jimmer started the trash talking and kawhi was responding to him. But apparently they are friends and kawhi stood up for jimmer on his struggles in the nba. Saying something along the lines that hes a hard worker and talented and just needs a chance.

It wouldn't make much sense for Jimmer to start something up after an 18 point loss on the road. That was Kawhi. There's gifs on it too. But yes, Jimmer didn't take it too personal. He invited Kawhi to headline at his Jimmer's All-Stars before their rookie year. Run of the mill players made $10K. I'm assuming Kawhi made even more. So, Kawhi was able to line his pocket up front before the real NBA money came in thanks to Jimmer.

But my point is I'd love to see Jimmer embrace talking. It may go against his moral code though.

Spurtacular

07-23-2015, 10:31 PM

Bonner still finds a way to hang around.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/66/92/4d/66924d0fac9360e72917ea248f76403a.jpg

Did they try to take scrubiest pic they could take or what? :lol

Spurtacular

07-23-2015, 10:36 PM

From Jimmer and KL's rookie seasons (link)

(http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/article/Rookie-Leonard-still-believes-in-Kings-Fredette-3442821.php)

jesterbobman

07-24-2015, 12:45 AM

I didn't like this when first rumoured, but it's a great TC invite for slot #15.

He's not really a PG, but with the ability of all 4 of the main front court guys to pass, and that of most of the wing rotation (Manu, Kawhi, Simmons/ Anderson (Hopefully at NBA level)) to be solid creators, we don't need a TJ Ford type - A run around gunner works. Mills is the clear #1 for that situation, though Jimmer works there.

G-Dawgg

07-24-2015, 04:54 AM

Who knows.. Maybe Jimmer Fredette could have a Steve Kerr like career. He seems like a very similar type player with the same type of skill set, defense and athleticism but with more range. He'll likely spend some time in the D-League learning the system then he may join the team as the last man off the bench. If he responds well, maybe they bring him back next year and give him some spot minutes..

ceperez

07-24-2015, 05:02 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56AnXbo4D98

He stills seems to have a pause before he releases the ball. Hope PATFO fixes that quirk!

cjw

07-24-2015, 07:59 AM

Did they try to take scrubiest pic they could take or what? :lol

Didn't Austin Daye have to put on his jersey after the game?

Maddog

07-24-2015, 08:27 AM

Chinook

07-24-2015, 08:36 AM

He stills seems to have a pause before he releases the ball. Hope PATFO fixes that quirk!

Yeah, what's up with that? His release looks broken. It's really not a wonder why he can't get his shot off in the pros like he could in college.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-24-2015, 08:51 AM

Need to consider that Manu needs to get some reps playing with the new guys. He needs to get down the right timing, strengths of the receiving players and where/when best to place the ball. Manu is one of the main playmakers and it could be disastrous if he doesn't have a feel of what Aldridge or West is going to do.

The year Manu helped save the Spurs in the 1st round against the Mavs, Manu missed 14 games and the year before in missed 22 games.

Manu tops, should only be playing 60 games this season, healthy or not. Spurs need him at his best for the playoffs.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-24-2015, 09:09 AM

Yeah, what's up with that? His release looks broken. It's really not a wonder why he can't get his shot off in the pros like he could in college.

He pulls the ball down to his chest before shooting. Kawhi, Anderson both had the same problem coming out of college. Both noticeably have corrected this. I think Chip will improve this as well. Jimmer couldn't go to a more perfect organization to improve his skill set.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

07-24-2015, 09:16 AM

https://twitter.com/danmccarneySAEN/status/624310409416171521

Pretty good summary that kind of reiterates things discussed here.
1. Jimmer sharing the same agent as David West played a role in getting the contact
2. Probably a long shot
3. Probably his last shot at the NBA had very little intest from other teams

I don't think he is a long shot. I think this the Spurs newest project player. Look at Baynes when the Spurs first brought him. He was raw and many here said he wasn't an NBA Caliber player. After a couple year of development, Baynes is more than a capable backup center in this league.

I think Jimmer will do quite well with Becky's tutelage on passing, Chip's on shooting, and Pop just make him more mentally tough. I expect him to actually do a few weeks in the D league to learn the Spurs system. Jimmer has potential, and the Spurs are the best at maximizing players potential.

cd98

07-24-2015, 10:48 AM

I'm a fan of Jimmer, and borderline homer, but he is a long shot to make the team. He is duplicative of Patty Mills at best, and he doesn't have the speed that Patty Mills has. His agent getting him a deal does not bode well for his chances. Spurs will always take a flyer on a shooter and a guy that was taken in the lottery, but no matter how great some guys are at basketball, there sometimes aren't enough jobs in the NBA. I assume he'll have moments and we'll get to see him in a few preseason games, and then I think he will move on to Europe, where he will score a ton of points and probably be a better fit. He's got the right skill set, but the NBA is a speed game, and if you can't adjust to that, you can't make it there.

ceperez

07-24-2015, 11:03 AM

I don't think he is a long shot. I think this the Spurs newest project player. Look at Baynes when the Spurs first brought him. He was raw and many here said he wasn't an NBA Caliber player. After a couple year of development, Baynes is more than a capable backup center in this league.

I think Jimmer will do quite well with Becky's tutelage on passing, Chip's on shooting, and Pop just make him more mentally tough. I expect him to actually do a few weeks in the D league to learn the Spurs system. Jimmer has potential, and the Spurs are the best at maximizing players potential.

The knock on Jimmer is that he had reached the peak of his game back in college.

But, I can't think of him as the kind of player that is raw and needs a lot of reps and tutelage. He just has to refine his game so it is more effective and efficient for the NBA game.

Mills thrives because he's given the green light. However, the thing about Mills is that he doesn't dribble the ball forever like we see Tony Parker and Jimmer do. He makes his move and if he isn't open, then he passes it, no ball hogging.

What I want to see Jimmer do is similar to what J.J. Redick has done.

(1) Release the ball faster, Jimmer has a tendency to cock the basketball before firing. You see it in a majority of his shots, there is a slight pause before he fires. Curry does it right, you don't need to release it at the peak of your jump, you just want to release if very quickly.
(2) Use the screens and fire the ball coming quickly off the screens. Reddick has mastered the shot where he's actually firing away with his body moving horizontally.

I trust PATFO on this, if they release him, then they know that his game is not salvageable.

BatManu20

07-24-2015, 01:44 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fb25bQaDMs

bic50

07-24-2015, 01:57 PM

It wouldn't make much sense for Jimmer to start something up after an 18 point loss on the road. That was Kawhi. There's gifs on it too. But yes, Jimmer didn't take it too personal. He invited Kawhi to headline at his Jimmer's All-Stars before their rookie year. Run of the mill players made $10K. I'm assuming Kawhi made even more. So, Kawhi was able to line his pocket up front before the real NBA money came in thanks to Jimmer.

But my point is I'd love to see Jimmer embrace talking. It may go against his moral code though.
Kawhi isnt exactly known or being a trash talker actually quite the opposite so something must have triggered it. Like I said, there's different stories about what actually happened and what was said, saying kawhi started it is just mere assumption gifs dont tell the whole story. They obviously have moved passed it though. "I'm assuming Kawhi made even more. So, Kawhi was able to line his pocket up front before the real NBA money came in thanks to Jimmer." Again just assuming.

Kawhitstorm

07-24-2015, 02:02 PM

Yeah, what's up with that? His release looks broken. It's really not a wonder why he can't get his shot off in the pros like he could in college.

He has the same shooting motion as Bonner only quicker & jumps higher. Him shooting 3s off the dribble is the equivalent of Bonner shooting spot up 3s w/ Gobert running at him. He would basically be a spot up shooter ala Bonner if he ever became a rotation player thus Steve Kerr 2.0 if he ever sticks w/ the team.

Chinook

07-24-2015, 02:29 PM

He has the same shooting motion as Bonner only quicker & jumps higher. Him shooting 3s off the dribble is the equivalent of Bonner shooting spot up 3s w/ Gobert running at him. He would basically be a spot up shooter ala Bonner if he ever became a rotation player thus Steve Kerr 2.0 if he ever sticks w/ the team.

Bonner is a big, which both means he's taller (so higher release point) and that he's more likely to have a slower man closing out on him (longer window to shoot). Also, no, Bonner doesn't hitch when he shoots. Jimmer's motion is significantly more broken than Bonners.

ceperez

07-24-2015, 02:34 PM

Bonner is a big, which both means he's taller (so higher release point) and that he's more likely to have a slower man closing out on him (longer window to shoot). Also, no, Bonner doesn't hitch when he shoots. Jimmer's motion is significantly more broken than Bonners.

I don't think it's the same shooting motion as Bonner's. But definitely there's a hitch, which he absolutely has to get rid off. Jimmer takes the shot at the top of his jump which leads to requiring more strength and also a slower release.

Clip is unsure if he can fix it, that's why the gave him an unguaranteed contract.

The question is whether it is easier to fix Jimmer's shot or to fix Eddie's defensive attitude. Let's see what camp leads to.

Kidd K

07-24-2015, 02:37 PM

He shot .188 from behind the arc last season, though at least he's a career .381

Yeah but year before that, 48% 3pt%. Also 47% FG% and 91% from FT line, average between two teams.

Could be a case of not fitting in well with his last team. Possibly wishful thinking though.

ceperez

07-24-2015, 02:40 PM

Yeah but year before that, 48% 3pt%. Also 47% FG% and 91% from FT line, average between two teams.

Could be a case of not fitting in well with his last team. Possibly wishful thinking though.

In camp, he'll have SGs defending him like Green and Simmons. If he can get his shot off against these guys, then he makes the team. If he doesn't then his career is practically over. Odds are pretty slim.

Nathan89

07-24-2015, 03:02 PM

Over analyzing Jimmer's shot now.

Chinook

07-24-2015, 03:09 PM

Over analyzing Jimmer's shot now.

I wouldn't say that we're putting too much emphasis on it, though, because that's his calling card, and it simply hasn't been good enough so far.

ceperez

07-24-2015, 03:19 PM

I wouldn't say that we're putting too much emphasis on it, though, because that's his calling card, and it simply hasn't been good enough so far.

I agree. Given his height, if he can't let it fly quickly enough.

I want him to start shooting like Stephan Curry (the Gold Standard).

james evans

07-24-2015, 03:28 PM

Jimmer actually killed Kawhi in the matchup

http://youtu.be/DlDPwcwLu2o
killing kawai? hahaha. ferdette was another overrated ass white dude that was never gonna be shit in the nba.

Aztecfan03

07-24-2015, 03:29 PM

I trust PATFO on this, if they release him, then they know that his game is not salvageable.
Not necessarily. THey did release Danny once.

Weapon X

07-24-2015, 03:33 PM

First post! Jimmer needs to make the team! I'd love for him to get the last spot

BatManu20

07-24-2015, 03:35 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fb25bQaDMs

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 04:27 PM

Didn't Austin Daye have to put on his jersey after the game?

Yea, that's what would have had to have happened. :lol

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 04:29 PM

Kawhi isnt exactly known or being a trash talker actually quite the opposite so something must have triggered it. Like I said, there's different stories about what actually happened and what was said, saying kawhi started it is just mere assumption gifs dont tell the whole story. They obviously have moved passed it though. "I'm assuming Kawhi made even more. So, Kawhi was able to line his pocket up front before the real NBA money came in thanks to Jimmer." Again just assuming.

A pretty safe assumption though. Headliners almost always make more than also-rans.

Dex

07-24-2015, 04:36 PM

Yeah but year before that, 48% 3pt%. Also 47% FG% and 91% from FT line, average between two teams.

Could be a case of not fitting in well with his last team. Possibly wishful thinking though.

Outside of AD's brilliance, the Pelicans were an absolute mess last year offensively. Being in The System and getting fed open looks from the likes of Manu, Diaw, and West should bring his percentage back up to his career average...and will hopefully hide his reported defensive deficiencies as well.

Chucho

07-24-2015, 04:38 PM

I swear...some of you fucking morons really need to just, I dunno...die?

It's a guy who might or might not make the team. Some of you hanging on Summer league and D League over-hypes are just stupid. "Oh man, they smashed it against weak competition, they are so ready for the big show." But reverse the rhetoric to down another player?? Idiots.

Plum Island

07-24-2015, 05:09 PM

benefactor

07-24-2015, 05:12 PM

Pretty sure Jimmer won't be around long enough for any of this to matter.

Darkwaters

07-24-2015, 05:21 PM

I don't think it's the same shooting motion as Bonner's. But definitely there's a hitch, which he absolutely has to get rid off. Jimmer takes the shot at the top of his jump which leads to requiring more strength and also a slower release.

Clip is unsure if he can fix it, that's why the gave him an unguaranteed contract.

The question is whether it is easier to fix Jimmer's shot or to fix Eddie's defensive attitude. Let's see what camp leads to.

A lot of people keep talking about Eddie coming to camp. But I haven't seen any official word that hes inked a training camp deal. Did I just miss it?

timtonymanu

07-24-2015, 05:55 PM

NASpurs

07-24-2015, 06:09 PM

Wishing death on posters smh

TPark's alt account has been found :lol

DenialTwist

07-24-2015, 06:46 PM

I don't think Fredette is going to make the roster now that Reggie Williams is signed on as the 15th man.

Chinook

07-24-2015, 06:48 PM

I don't think Fredette is going to make the roster now that Reggie Williams is signed on as the 15th man.

Really don't see that as being true.

ceperez

07-24-2015, 07:18 PM

I don't think Fredette is going to make the roster now that Reggie Williams is signed on as the 15th man.

Williams contract for next season is unguaranteed. Don't know when it becomes guaranteed, but I gather it is probably after training camp.

Darkwaters

07-24-2015, 07:23 PM

I don't think Fredette is going to make the roster now that Reggie Williams is signed on as the 15th man.

Reggie Williams' contract situation is the same it was 3 months ago. Literally nothing has changed except now Monroe is saying it's a full guarantee despite no word of this before.

I'm guessing misinformation. He probably has either a small partial guarantee for next season (eg, like a training camp guarantee of $50k) or nothing at all. If he makes it out of camp he potentially becomes fully guaranteed.

ceperez

07-24-2015, 08:05 PM

Reggie Williams' contract situation is the same it was 3 months ago. Literally nothing has changed except now Monroe is saying it's a full guarantee despite no word of this before.

I'm guessing misinformation. He probably has either a small partial guarantee for next season (eg, like a training camp guarantee of $50k) or nothing at all. If he makes it out of camp he potentially becomes fully guaranteed.

Kind of weird to sign Fredette to go to camp for the 15th slot and have that 15 slot already filled. In fact, Jimmer was so thrilled with the contract that he posted it on twitter. You can't be thrilled if there isn't even a spot open.

Maddog

07-24-2015, 08:26 PM

Kind of weird to sign Fredette to go to camp for the 15th slot and have that 15 slot already filled. In fact, Jimmer was so thrilled with the contract that he posted it on twitter. You can't be thrilled if there isn't even a spot open.

The one article suggested signing him was to some extent a favor to his agen . Same agent as David West. Probably knows coming in that he is a long shot, but at least may give him a chance to attract another deal/interest. Or Williams contract is small enough to eat without difficulty. Putting all the indirect evidence together, I think it's highly unlikely he is on the roster opening night.

I've been wrong before...

Nathan89

07-24-2015, 08:30 PM

Jimmer will make this team.

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 08:40 PM

Hard for me to see RW making it over Jimmer the way this team is currently constructed and given RW's weak showing last season. Guessing that the Spurs are keeping their options open.

BatManu20

07-24-2015, 08:40 PM

Jimmer will make this team.

I hope you're right, tbh. He's arguably my favorite college player ever. Guy was just fun to watch. Not banking on it though.

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 08:41 PM

Reggie can eat up some preseason minutes; and then another team can sign him if he does well.

BatManu20

07-24-2015, 08:42 PM

I just realized Kawhi shows more emotion in this one video than he has with the Spurs (minus when he accepted his Finals MVP, of course). Look at his reaction on the bench at the 1:16 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWjwlSGIch0

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 08:43 PM

I hope you're right, tbh. He's arguably my favorite college player ever. Guy was just fun to watch. Not banking on it though.

I don't know if the financials factor into the decision; but if they do, that's a notch for Jimmer. He is great for jersey sales and ticket sales as well as ratings.

Darkwaters

07-24-2015, 10:03 PM

Reggie can eat up some preseason minutes; and then another team can sign him if he does well.

We have four open roster spots so its going to balloon to 20 players over the next couple of weeks. Thats almost an absolute guarantee.

We're at 16 right now. That means we can sign 4 more players. I would imagine some combination of Eddie, Ndoye, Scott, Davies and Graham are likely to be in the mix. Maybe another veteran (a la, Jimmer Fredette) on a make-good contract. They will all eat up preseason minutes to some degree. Then it's off to Austin for three of them and the scrap heap for the 2-3 others.

BillMc

07-24-2015, 10:49 PM

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 11:20 PM

We have four open roster spots so its going to balloon to 20 players over the next couple of weeks. Thats almost an absolute guarantee.

We're at 16 right now. That means we can sign 4 more players. I would imagine some combination of Eddie, Ndoye, Scott, Davies and Graham are likely to be in the mix. Maybe another veteran (a la, Jimmer Fredette) on a make-good contract. They will all eat up preseason minutes to some degree. Then it's off to Austin for three of them and the scrap heap for the 2-3 others.

Players don't like going to the d-league once they've 'made it.' Jimmer would be in that category. Williams hasn't had a full season in the NBA, so maybe he'd psychologically handle it well enough. But if another team wanted Williams, I imagine they'd part with him rather than send him down to the d-league out of courtesy.

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 11:21 PM

I like vids like this. You feel more like you're at the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDHXMKwlvYU

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 11:35 PM

Don't agree with every comment in this vid. But this shows some of the ways that Kings 2.0 misused Jimmer when they bothered to give him some minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKicWXUi214

timvp

07-24-2015, 11:36 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56AnXbo4D98

1. Why is he working out against midgets? His biggest flaw is not being able to get his shot off against taller players and he's there going one-on-one against 5-foot-5 munchkins? K.

2. His release is somehow getting slower. Chip needs to get to him ASAP. The first 90% of Jimmer's stroke is unnecessary.

BatManu20

07-24-2015, 11:43 PM

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 11:48 PM

Imagine if Spurs players routinely didn't hit Danny Green when he was open for threes. That's been the teammates that Jimmer has had.

Jimmer looked good whenever he got halfway decent minutes....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5my03X819K4

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 11:49 PM

Yea he takes too long to set his shot. He catches it, then goes down to gather before coming up to jump and release. He needs to already be gathering before he catches so as son as the ball hits his hand, he's ready to go up and fire. I don't remember him doing that in college either.

And yea Idk why he's training with that guy.. Need to get a wing on him or at least use the broomstick.

The other guy sucked to boot. He was like a JV bench player or something. :lol

Spurtacular

07-24-2015, 11:54 PM

(3:27 mark) Why would you hit Jimmer for an open side three when you can brick a three from four feet behind the line with 10 seconds left on the shot clock. Jimmer's had to play with these jackasses for the first four years of his career. Pop would not have put up with this sh__

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA_lCr21nUM

Then at the 4:10 mark, ex-coach Monty takes Jimmer (95 FT%) away to have Ryan Anderson (86 FT%) shoot the technical foul. I swear Jimmer's been in these cancerous organizations.

ceperez

07-25-2015, 07:09 AM

1. Why is he working out against midgets? His biggest flaw is not being able to get his shot off against taller players and he's there going one-on-one against 5-foot-5 munchkins? K.

2. His release is somehow getting slower. Chip needs to get to him ASAP. The first 90% of Jimmer's stroke is unnecessary.

I agree with your assessment, he needs to practice against taller and quicker players.

I agree also with his stroke.... it is like he's cocking it back and hitting it at the top of his jump. He needs to get if off like Curry, right from the dribble! He has been in the league 4 years and has not made adjustments to his shot. Leonard made the adjustment when he came in. That's the difference between good and bad coaching.

Even his shots when he makes a tear drop, its like he wants to float like Jordan before releasing it. Extremely ineffective.

We got also all these fans out there that say he was screwed in Sacramento, Chicago and New Orleans. I can see that happening with the dysfunctional Kings but Chicago is one of the better run organizations and NO isn't also that bad. Fans need to accept reality that he's got obvious flaws in his game.

will_spurs

07-25-2015, 07:26 AM

Chicago is one of the better run organizations

I'm not sure what you have to back this up. Chicago doesn't seem better run than many other organizations. Thibs was focused on defense at all costs. I wouldn't say Chicago is the best place to go to for a player to develop their offensive skills.

cd98

07-25-2015, 08:00 AM

I agree with your assessment, he needs to practice against taller and quicker players.

I agree also with his stroke.... it is like he's cocking it back and hitting it at the top of his jump. He needs to get if off like Curry, right from the dribble! He has been in the league 4 years and has not made adjustments to his shot. Leonard made the adjustment when he came in. That's the difference between good and bad coaching.

Even his shots when he makes a tear drop, its like he wants to float like Jordan before releasing it. Extremely ineffective.

We got also all these fans out there that say he was screwed in Sacramento, Chicago and New Orleans. I can see that happening with the dysfunctional Kings but Chicago is one of the better run organizations and NO isn't also that bad. Fans need to accept reality that he's got obvious flaws in his game.

All three teams Jimmer played for were bad fits. Sac was a selfish team that was full of me-first scorers. Chicago desperately needed a shooter, but they were not a good offensive team and also didn't have great ball movement. Rather, Chicago was about defense, and Jimmer can't play any, so he never got in the game. And the Hornets were full of Kings castaways, it was like a Kings reunion. They were only a playoff team bc of Davis.

Also, Jimmer seems to be fine at getting his shot off against guards and I've never really seen him guarded by small forwards, so I don't know how much of this is about his shooting form. He has one of the smoothest jumpers I've seen and but for one season, he's shot at a high percentage from 3 including a stretch where he was shooting 50%.

That said, his defense is horrid and he certainly is going to need to make adjustments to play for the Spurs. All the video clips show him scoring with the ball in his hands. He's not going to have the ball in his hands often with the Spurs, so he is going to have to learn to be a spot up shooter. Not that he can't, but I've seen him miss a lot in those scenarios.

tholdren

07-25-2015, 08:37 AM

[QUOTE=ceperez;8141316]I agree with your assessment, he needs to practice against taller and quicker players.

Its funny how a single published video allows you all to glimpse into his training regimen.... I hope he gives SA a good look. He could fit a need: scoring, smart, pg, 3pt shooting, create his own shot. I see him more of a marco replacement tbh. Where as simmons is going to be your energy guy (manu replacement). If anything he's going to be a hard practice guy who doesn't do stupid things off the court. He's better than any of the other SL/DL Pgs the spurs have. He will be as good as Joseph was with a better outside shot.

HarlemHeat37

07-25-2015, 09:01 AM

:lol White American NBA players..so cute and adorable..

Chinook

07-25-2015, 09:52 AM

Bruno

07-25-2015, 10:02 AM

ceperez

07-25-2015, 10:38 AM

It's just plain wrong to give as main explanation of Fredette bad NBA career his previous franchises sucking and being poorly coached.

The level difference between college and NBA is huge. I get people liking college basketball because of sentimental attachment and the excitement around march madness but the quality of basketball played is poor. A lot of what Fredette did in college doesn't work in the NBA simply because of that level gap. Spurs and Fredette must trim all the parts of his game who doesn't translate to the NBA and stick to what could work (mainly perimeter shooting).

I agree. Jimmer did a lot of stuff in college, a lot of that stuff needs to be trimmed away from his game. Look at that practice video, the Spurs don't give a damn as to his ability to create. He isn't going to be creating for the Spurs.

Dion Waiter hated being a spot and shoot player in the Cavs offense, so he was traded away. Fans of Jimmer keep arguing that he needs the ball in his hands to really show how much he can deliver. Not going to happen with the Spurs that demand a high level of efficiency.

Efficiency is what wins games for the Spurs. Jimmer dribbling the ball trying to find an opening for himself is absolutely not going to happen.

loveforthegame

07-25-2015, 10:46 AM

http://www.kens5.com/story/opinion/contributors/david-flores/2015/07/24/new-spur-mccallum-eager-to-learn-as-backup-to-parker/30612641/

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich and his staff have a well-earned reputation for developing players, something not lost on McCallum.

"Player development is huge, especially in the NBA," McCallum said. "I feel like I have a high ceiling and I'm glad to be here with these guys, and I think they can really expand my game. It's something I really haven't had in my first two years. I'm going to be around some great players and great coaches, and be in a great system. I'm excited to see where I can take my game."

I'm not saying it's all on the teams for why Jimmer hasn't clicked on a team yet. But I think player development is a big deal. And the Kings suck at that. We'll see if the Spurs can fix any of Jimmer's limitations. Maybe it's too late for him but it makes me wonder how things would have played out had he started with a team like the Spurs instead of the Kings.

littlecoyotecoin

07-25-2015, 10:47 AM

I am no fan of Cojo's game, but his overall package of skills, defense, shooting, driving, is far better than Jimmer.

ceperez

07-25-2015, 10:55 AM

littlecoyotecoin

07-25-2015, 11:16 AM

He's not going to be as good as Joseph defensively. I agree though, he will shoot better and can orchestrate the offense better.

Is he better though than McCallum? To get playing time, he's got to beat McCallum at the PG role.

I don't think he is better than Ray. But, admittedly, I am pretty high on Ray. I think he will be better for us than Cojo was. And, I think Cojo is better than Jimmer. Jimmer's strongest skill is shooting, and he hasn't been doing that all that well, and he's short with no D. I was hoping for a bigger Belinelli replacement. I lean with the Jimmer is redundant to Patty group. I don't want 4 6'0"-6'2" guys on the team, most being defensive negatives.

exstatic

07-25-2015, 11:25 AM

I am no fan of Cojo's game, but his overall package of skills, defense, shooting, driving, is far better than Jimmer.

You're talking apples and...printer paper. Jimmer is on a 50K guarantee, and CoJo is making $7.5M.

sasaint

07-25-2015, 11:32 AM

He's not going to be as good as Joseph defensively. I agree though, he will shoot better and can orchestrate the offense better.

Is he better though than McCallum? To get playing time, he's got to beat McCallum at the PG role.

That could be really good... or really bad! If Jimmer is better than a guy we traded for and RC said we couldn't touch if he were a FA - good! If McCallum can't excel the Jimmer of last season - oops! I personally expect Jimmer to play in Europe next year. Maybe we'll ship him to Boban's old team.

ceperez

07-25-2015, 11:41 AM

I don't think he is better than Ray. But, admittedly, I am pretty high on Ray. I think he will be better for us than Cojo was. And, I think Cojo is better than Jimmer. Jimmer's strongest skill is shooting, and he hasn't been doing that all that well, and he's short with no D. I was hoping for a bigger Belinelli replacement. I lean with the Jimmer is redundant to Patty group. I don't want 4 6'0"-6'2" guys on the team, most being defensive negatives.

I don't think many folks realize this, but McCallum is better than Cojo in every aspect of the game. This was yet another Spurs steal!

Bufford said it himself, Spurs wouldn't have been able to sign McCallum if he was a free-agent. The league got ripped off again!

ceperez

07-25-2015, 11:44 AM

That could be really good... or really bad! If Jimmer is better than a guy we traded for and RC said we couldn't touch if he were a FA - good! If McCallum can't excel the Jimmer of last season - oops! I personally expect Jimmer to play in Europe next year. Maybe we'll ship him to Boban's old team.

Spurs are going to accept the fact the Jimmer isn't that great in defense. It's just the same with Belinelli. Belinelli was so bad that Pop in many occasions jokes about it!

The key for Jimmer is

(1) Orchestrate the offense better than McCallum.
(2) Shoot better than McCallum.

If he can't do *both* not just one, then his career in NBA is practically over.

littlecoyotecoin

07-25-2015, 11:45 AM

You're talking apples and...printer paper. Jimmer is on a 50K guarantee, and CoJo is making $7.5M.

Of, course. That's why I said "far better"? Far better means, well, a lot. Thought it was a fairly standard phrase. You missed the original comparison. I did not make it. The quote box had an error on my tablet, the easier fix was to delete most of it. I wouldn't have suggested Jimmer was even close, exactly why I refuted it.

ceperez

07-25-2015, 11:48 AM

You're talking apples and...printer paper. Jimmer is on a 50K guarantee, and CoJo is making $7.5M.

From the practical point of view, Jimmer must prove that he is better than McCallum. That is as close to apples and apples that you are going to get.

Note: McCallum is better than CoJo, let's see if Jimmer is up to this challenge.

littlecoyotecoin

07-25-2015, 11:50 AM

Spurs are going to accept the fact the Jimmer isn't that great in defense. It's just the same with Belinelli. Belinelli was so bad that Pop in many occasions jokes about it!

The key for Jimmer is

(1) Orchestrate the offense better than McCallum.
(2) Shoot better than McCallum.

If he can't do *both* not just one, then his career in NBA is practically over.

But, Belinelli had size, and shot better than Jimmer. Belinelli will look like Kawhi next to Jimmer, I think, defensively.

I think the only hope for Jimmer vs McCallum will be superior shooting. Ray is going to be better at everything else. But, time will tell.

AFBlue

07-25-2015, 11:55 AM

I don't think anyone can predict how effective Jimmer will be in the system. You can expect to see some improvement based on the spacing and number of open looks he'll see, but whether that's enough to offset his deficiencies is still tbd.

picnroll

07-25-2015, 11:57 AM

You're talking apples and...printer paper. Jimmer is on a 50K guarantee, and CoJo is making $7.5M.
Even with the pay difference it appears Simmons is a better player than CoJo at both ends of the floor and McCallum on the offensive end. Not sorry to see CoJo and his inability to really run an offense go. Jimmer if he makes it will likely be a modification of the Kerr, Neal, Bellinelli role. Put him in when offense is sucking and see if he's hot. That would give the Spurs two players to run at teams and see if either is hot. Three if you count Bonner.

Darkwaters

07-25-2015, 12:04 PM

I am no fan of Cojo's game, but his overall package of skills, defense, shooting, driving, is far better than Jimmer.

Which is why hes an NBA player making very nice money and Jimmer is just hoping to be somebody's 15th man.

littlecoyotecoin

07-25-2015, 12:05 PM

I don't think many folks realize this, but McCallum is better than Cojo in every aspect of the game. This was yet another Spurs steal!

Bufford said it himself, Spurs wouldn't have been able to sign McCallum if he was a free-agent. The league got ripped off again!

Well, I think Cojo will prove a better defender than Ray, but at everything else, Ray will be better. And, Ray will still be the better defender of the three small guards, like Cojo was, but probably just not as good as Cojo. Joseph wasn't a horrible shooter, I think they'll end up close in that department, if Ray improves coming out of a bad team like I hope. May even be a better shooter than CJ, and everything else offensively he's gonna be better, so not everything, but a steal by RC, I think.

Darkwaters

07-25-2015, 12:08 PM

From the practical point of view, Jimmer must prove that he is better than McCallum. That is as close to apples and apples that you are going to get.

Note: McCallum is better than CoJo , let's see if Jimmer is up to this challenge.

I don't think most would agree with your opinion on this.

exstatic

07-25-2015, 12:17 PM

Of, course. That's why I said "far better"? Far better means, well, a lot. Thought it was a fairly standard phrase. You missed the original comparison. I did not make it. The quote box had an error on my tablet, the easier fix was to delete most of it. I wouldn't have suggested Jimmer was even close, exactly why I refuted it.

Is he 150 X better than Fredette? Because that's the money gap.

sasaint

07-25-2015, 01:06 PM

Note: McCallum is better than CoJo, let's see if Jimmer is up to this challenge.

Ahhh... That is the $64,000 question for McCallum. We don't really know the answer yet. Pessimists believe he isn't, and optimists believe he is. We shall see... I hope he is. I hope he is good enough to eventually become Tony's replacement. Now, that would be a coup. If Jimmer also proves better than Cojo, that would be a real coup. (I think all Jimmer really needs to do is knock down treys at a Marco clip.) In the evolving NBA of "position-less" ball, they might end up playing beside one another instead of really competing directly with one another for PT.

I think Simmons is the real key here. I hope he will be such a great Manu apprentice that he, like Manu in his prime, will move from 1 to 2 to 3 as game situations dictate. We already saw some of this in SL, when Becky used him as the principal ball-handler to close the last couple of games. He shows signs of being a very good defender, also. Playing along side either McCallum or Simmons, if Jimmer's D could be counted on to be as good (?) as Tony's or Marco's, then he could stick and eventually get Marco level minutes.

ceperez

07-25-2015, 01:24 PM

I don't think most would agree with your opinion on this.

The detractors will be nodding in agreement come mid-season, I guarantee it!

littlecoyotecoin

07-25-2015, 01:25 PM

Is he 150 X better than Fredette? Because that's the money gap.

I don't know, but he won't make 50k if he makes the team, so that 150x is an apples to, um, er, typewriters, was that it, comparison. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. It will be like 7.5 times as much, if Jimmer makes the team. Is Cojo 7.5 times better. Still, I don't know. I can't quantify "far better". I'll have to let you put a number to it. I think Cojo was overpaid, so there's that, too. Then there's also the fact that valuations don't always follow linear/proportional functions. Sometimes, like with wine, or stock cars, etc, a premium is paid for only incremental improvement, so there's that, too. When competition is involved, a 100% increase may be paid to gain only a fraction of a single percent advantage. A bad movie, "Focus", made something like this part of the plot, recently.

Again, still not sure what you're trying to needle me about. I didn't make any hyperbolic claims. Are you saying that Jimmer is, in fact, a good value based on a minimum salary (we can throw the 50k out, right, that's a nonstarter)?

I have not ruled out his success with the team, I just don't prefer him based upon what I know.

Maybe he will be a bargain at 1/7.5 the the price, but so might whoever it is besides Jimmer.

HarlemHeat37

07-25-2015, 01:31 PM

ceperez

07-25-2015, 01:34 PM

In terms of play making, I suspect that Jimmer is better than McCallum who is better than Cojo.

In terms of 3 point shooting, Jimmer is better than McCallum who is better than Cojo.

The big question more for Jimmer is whether he is so much better in these two categories that Spurs can ignore his deficiencies in his other categories. Parker is a great example, liability on defense but his offense makes up for this. Mills also has similar issue, great offense but suffer in defense.

ceperez

07-25-2015, 01:36 PM

:lol McCallum isn't even close to Joseph as a player, and I'm not even a Cojo fan..

You could make the argument that he will a better fit for the Spurs, because Joseph's game didn't really mesh well with Parker and Ginobili, but he's certainly not a better player..

Jimmer is a 1-dimensional, White American player that couldn't even get a guaranteed deal..he's not going to make an impact in any facet, tbh..

I am going to quote you on this 'coz you are going to regret this statement.

Watch this, and tell me if Cojo can do what you just saw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSs5Y2Gsag

Jimmer is a skilled player that so far can translate his game into the NBA level. The jury is still out as whether he can be serviceable.

littlecoyotecoin

07-25-2015, 01:56 PM

ceperez

07-25-2015, 02:09 PM

He won't regret it. He'll deny, and/or say "I knew he was going to be a better fit!". But, will still be fun watching Ray make some believers. So tired of Joseph.

For for some unknown reason, a lot of Spurs fans think really highly of Joseph. I for one never saw the talent. There are a ton of guards in the D-league that could do same things CoJo could do. Cojo was asked to run the offense but here never could figure out how to do it.

Mnky

07-25-2015, 02:19 PM

Cojo was a huge luxury off the bench. You Cray to think otherwise. Ray will be suitable tho at replacing him if not go Further. Ray is more of a playmaker in a system than cojo was.

:lol bruh, how many of them d league boys getting paid like cojo. Cray Cray.
As far as tons of d league guards being as good as cojo...

Hoops Czar

07-25-2015, 02:50 PM

Watch this, and tell me if Cojo can do what you just saw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSs5Y2Gsag

You'll have to be more specific. Is there a particular play or segment of video I should be focusing my attention on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYfEFcs2CqA

Yeah, according to You Tube, he can do that. I wasn't a fan of CoJo and I for one, was glad to see him go. He's not an effective pg because he can't create shots for others and he can't play shooting guard because he's not a particularly good shooter. I'm not sure how that translates into 4 years/30M (maybe Masai Ujiri spends a lot of time watching You Tube highlight reels) but, that's Toronto's problem. Ray hasn't proven much at the NBA level either and showing a bunch of scoring highlights against one of the worst defenses in the NBA doesn't really strengthen your argument.

ceperez

07-25-2015, 03:23 PM

You'll have to be more specific. Is there a particular play or segment of video I should be focusing my attention on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYfEFcs2CqA

Yeah, according to You Tube, he can do that. I wasn't a fan of CoJo and I for one, was glad to see him go. He's not an effective pg because he can't create shots for others and he can't play shooting guard because he's not a particularly good shooter. I'm not sure how that translates into 4 years/30M (maybe Masai Ujiri spends a lot of time watching You Tube highlight reels) but, that's Toronto's problem. Ray hasn't proven much at the NBA level either and showing a bunch of scoring highlights against one of the worst defenses in the NBA doesn't really strengthen your argument.

First, the highlights you show is an *entire* season of highlights. They consist mostly of below the rim acrobat layups where the ball fell into the hoop.

The highlights for McCallum are for just one game. You can see that McCallum can really get up in the air like Westbrook. Serveral fastbreak plays where there is a defensive player in good position and he uses his hops and athleticism to drive past the defender and score. Cojo just doesn't have the hops or speed to do that.

I'm not saying the McCallum is all-star material, all I'm saying is that his talent exceeds Cojo by a noticeable margin.

McCallum the Spurs PG is absolutely a better player than CoJo the Raptors PG even though Cojo is paid like 3 times as much.

Vito Corleone

07-25-2015, 03:24 PM

Spurtacular

07-25-2015, 05:55 PM

Even with the pay difference it appears Simmons is a better player than CoJo at both ends of the floor and McCallum on the offensive end. Not sorry to see CoJo and his inability to really run an offense go. Jimmer if he makes it will likely be a modification of the Kerr, Neal, Bellinelli role. Put him in when offense is sucking and see if he's hot. That would give the Spurs two players to run at teams and see if either is hot. Three if you count Bonner.

Cojo's considerably better than Ray. Cojo can get to the hoop much better. Cojo's a much better defender. Ray's not even a better shooter than Cojo, which is the weakness in his game.

timtonymanu

07-25-2015, 05:58 PM

:lol people are hyping up our 3rd stringers way too much. The only one I'm impressed by so far is Simmons.

Spurtacular

07-25-2015, 05:59 PM

I'm a huge Texas Longhorn fan, I think Cojo has exceeded all my expectations, but he isn't that great.

I think The biggest problem with Jimmer and McCallum is they were in Sacramento, one of the worst run organizations in sports. To think they are more or less than this is folley.

Much like Neal, you are going to see Cojo's production go way down and Toronto show some buyers remorse.

On the other end, I think Jimmer is going to blossom under Pop, and I think he will be a lot like Steve Kerr was for us back in 2003.

Not sure about McCallum but I know he will be a hell of a lot better than he was in Sacramento.

I haven't looked at Toronto's roster; so, I don't even know how likely it is that CoJo becomes a starter; but I think he'll have career numbers. At $7m, I doubt Toronto's gonna be having much buyer's remorse. He's out east; and he'll probably be a part of a winning formula.

As for Jimmer, I think the Spurs will be very smart to roll with him regardless of however he does in training camp. The dude has huge upside. With McCallum, you kind of get what you get (kind of like with CoJo). He's not going to suck; he's not going to be great. He'll be serviceable.

tholdren

07-25-2015, 05:59 PM

I don't think most would agree with your opinion on this.
McCallum is definitely not better than anyone on the Spurs current Roster. period.

Yuixafun

07-25-2015, 06:25 PM

Spurtacular

07-25-2015, 06:28 PM

McCallum is definitely not better than anyone on the Spurs current Roster. period.

Jimmer's per 36 career numbers are much better than Ray's per 36 career numbers; and it's not even close.

As a Jimmer fan I closely followed that Kings trainwreck. In the 2013-2014 season, Jimmer averaged 18.7 points per 36 on 47.3 FG (49.3 3FG) and 4.7 assts. But Thomas, Thornton, and Evans (backed by Cousins) did not like having to compete for minutes against Jimmer, and they'd freeze him out. So, as soon as McCallum had one serviceable game, the coach pushed McCallum 11.2 points per 36 and 4.8 assts on 37 FG (37 3FG) ahead of Jimmer in the rotation (Something similar happened with IT getting the starting nod over Jimmer in the first place). Does that make one whit of sense? "Coach" Malone even gave McCallum 10 starts to 0 for Jimmer.

I was happy for Jimmer to hopefully find a right fit last year until the market wasn't there for him, and he had to sign with Kings 2.0. And I'll tell everyone straight up that Jimmer's way f'ing better than Ray. You just watch and see what Jimmer does in a real system.

Spurtacular

07-25-2015, 06:32 PM

Cojo is the better player, but Ray migt be more specifically suited for us at this juncture, his bb acumen and ability to run the offense... Plus drive and kick, on top of being cheap... Is a windfall for the Spurs. Right player right time, right price, right attitude, and hungry for a better opportunity.

I agree with all of this. But I'll say I'd cut Ray and keep Jimmer if it came down to it. And it wouldn't even be a hard decision. However, I think Reggie Williams is the one that should go, tbh.

exstatic

07-25-2015, 06:35 PM

They gave up an asset and he has a guaranteed deal. I can see no circumstance where McCallum gets cut.

Spurtacular

07-25-2015, 06:41 PM

They gave up an asset and he has a guaranteed deal. I can see no circumstance where McCallum gets cut.

That's how most FO's work b/c they don't want the scrutiny. But the Spurs are more stable and should go with their best option regardless; assuming it makes the sense to take the financial hit, that's what I think they'd do.

Chinook

07-25-2015, 06:47 PM

I am going to quote you on this 'coz you are going to regret this statement.

Watch this, and tell me if Cojo can do what you just saw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSs5Y2Gsag

Jimmer is a skilled player that so far can translate his game into the NBA level. The jury is still out as whether he can be serviceable.

Yes, Cory can do everything that McCallum did in that video and do it better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgC9cFXpvXI

Cory is WAAAAAAY better than McCallum. People who think Ray's going to go into the Spurs and be better than Joseph in really any way are going to be disappointed. He's cheaper and thusly a better play. But he's not a better player in a vacuum or in the Spurs system. And Fredette will be a pleasant surprise if he have a bigger impact than Reggie Williams did/has. By no means should anyone slot him in above any rotation player the Spurs have had over the last three or four years at this point.

benefactor

07-25-2015, 06:52 PM

:lol these takes by ceperez

You get the scroll right past from here on out breh.

TheCerebral1

07-25-2015, 06:55 PM

McCallum has a really weird shot angle. But w/e. He looks fine.

littlecoyotecoin

07-25-2015, 07:07 PM

That's how most FO's work b/c they don't want the scrutiny. But the Spurs are more stable and should go with their best option regardless; assuming it makes the sense to take the financial hit, that's what I think they'd do.

RC says that there is no way they could have afforded Ray McCallum if he was on the free agent open market, and that we were very lucky to be able to trade our second round pick for him. But, you think RC is going to, or should, cut that guy he couldn't have afforded on the open market for a guy in Jimmer that no team wanted.

Seems pretty unlikely, and seems that unless you doubt what RC is telling you about the market, RC and the market both think Ray is better than Jimmer.

I am optimistic about Jimmer as a reclamation project, but I don't think Ray's going to have to be reclaimed to be useful almost immediately.

Bruno

07-25-2015, 07:31 PM

Fredette has a 1.5 A/TO ratio...

There isn't really more to say to evaluate his PG "skills".

ceperez

07-25-2015, 07:34 PM

Yes, Cory can do everything that McCallum did in that video and do it better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgC9cFXpvXI

Cory is WAAAAAAY better than McCallum. People who think Ray's going to go into the Spurs and be better than Joseph in really any way are going to be disappointed. He's cheaper and thusly a better play. But he's not a better player in a vacuum or in the Spurs system. And Fredette will be a pleasant surprise if he have a bigger impact than Reggie Williams did/has. By no means should anyone slot him in above any rotation player the Spurs have had over the last three or four years at this point.

Definitely over rating cojo's impact... CoJo was an average player.... Deal with it. Mccallum has simply more hops and speed. He is going to be better, but that doesn't mean he is even going to be an allstar.

Axegrinder

07-25-2015, 07:35 PM

Hopefully Jimm can show us something..seems like a good kid

Vito Corleone

07-25-2015, 07:53 PM

All i can say is I'm looking forward to seeing Jimmer in a spurs uniform just to see what he can do with a real team around him. A real system with a real offense. then I will judge him. This team always seems to make bad players good, and good players great. when you have guys like Tim Tony and Manu, they have that affect on a team.

tesseractive

07-25-2015, 08:01 PM

Definitely over rating cojo's impact... CoJo was an average player.... Deal with it. Mccallum has simply more hops and speed. He is going to be better, but that doesn't mean he is even going to be an allstar.
Having an average NBA player as your third point guard is a good thing. If McCallum can be an average NBA player and get his defensive assignments and such down the way Cory did, I think we'll be pretty happy, especially given how little we had to pay to get him.

Nathan89

07-25-2015, 08:14 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5my03X819K4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA_lCr21nUM

Minus his takes this style of highlights is much better than typical highlights.

HarlemHeat37

07-25-2015, 08:16 PM

Let's be honest here..if Fredette was Black, this thread wouldn't be 22 pages, tbh:lol..

TD 21

07-25-2015, 08:18 PM

People need to stop analyzing a players sole/primary position based on one side of the ball. There are plenty of players who are one position on offense and another on defense. Mills is a prime example. He's an SG on offense and a PG on defense.

Fredette is similar. Despite being PG sized, he's an SG on offense, but the difference is, he has no clearly defined defensive position. Instead, he's match-up dependent. Like Novak, he can only really be played if there's a safe hiding place for him. Meaning, someone who's neither an off the dribble or post up threat.

aal04

07-25-2015, 08:19 PM

Interesting vids. Looks like he cant defend a lot of people and he would be a nightmare to defend himself. Another unique pawn at Pops disposal

cd98

07-25-2015, 08:19 PM

Takes:

Ray will most likely start 20 games this season, and will spend more time at point guard than Patty Mills.

COJO will have a good season in Toronto. He won't earn what he's paid, but he'll show us things he didn't do in SA.

Jimmer will have his moments in the preseason, but assuming Patty is healthy, Spurs will cut him loose, and he'll have a nice career in Europe.

Chinook

07-25-2015, 08:33 PM

Definitely over rating cojo's impact... CoJo was an average player.... Deal with it. Mccallum has simply more hops and speed. He is going to be better, but that doesn't mean he is even going to be an allstar.

You realize that being average is way better than being a fringe roster player, don't you? And I don't get how you think McCallum is faster or more athletic than Cory. The knock on Ray coming out was that he's not a great athlete. I feel like you're just repping McCallum because he's a Spur and you didn't really watch him at all.

Yuixafun

07-25-2015, 08:38 PM

Minus his takes this style of highlights is much better than typical highlights.

These are dope man, they show context and depth

TVI

07-25-2015, 09:02 PM

Definitely over rating cojo's impact... CoJo was an average player.... Deal with it. Mccallum has simply more hops and speed. He is going to be better, but that doesn't mean he is even going to be an allstar.
I liked CoJo, but he's not worth $30M. Glad he got his paycheck, and I'll miss him as a Spur, but no way would I give him that kind of coin.

timtonymanu

07-25-2015, 09:59 PM

:lol these takes by ceperez

You get the scroll right past from here on out breh.

:lol he's still an Austin Daye believer which is all you need to know

ceperez

07-25-2015, 10:17 PM

You realize that being average is way better than being a fringe roster player, don't you? And I don't get how you think McCallum is faster or more athletic than Cory. The knock on Ray coming out was that he's not a great athlete. I feel like you're just repping McCallum because he's a Spur and you didn't really watch him at all.

The eye-test tells you McCallum just hast more spring and speed than Joseph.

But if you don't believe it, then let's look at the pre-draft measurements:

Joseph

no step vert: 27.5"
max vertical 35"

McCallum

no step vert: 30.5"
max vertical: 40.0"

satisfied? Ray McCallum not being a great athlete? 40" vertical is not athletic? What planet are you from?

Now add that to Bufford's comment that McCallum can handle the offense better than Joseph. That's a comment on a player that hasn't played a single game for the Spurs. What it means is that Bufford has near zero confidence about Joseph's play making ability.

tholdren

07-25-2015, 10:41 PM

Fredette has a 1.5 A/TO ratio...

There isn't really more to say to evaluate his PG "skills".

lol - theres a lot more to say about his PG skills than A/TO

tholdren

07-25-2015, 10:43 PM

The eye-test tells you McCallum just hast more spring and speed than Joseph.

But if you don't believe it, then let's look at the pre-draft measurements:

Joseph

no step vert: 27.5"
max vertical 35"

McCallum

no step vert: 30.5"
max vertical: 40.0"

satisfied? Ray McCallum not being a great athlete? 40" vertical is not athletic? What planet are you from?

Now add that to Bufford's comment that McCallum can handle the offense better than Joseph. That's a comment on a player that hasn't played a single game for the Spurs. What it means is that Bufford has near zero confidence about Joseph's play making ability.

would have never guessed that vert. McCallum has too much herky-jerky motion, he looks sloppy and his handles are bad. I don't know what that is about.

ceperez

07-25-2015, 10:49 PM

would have never guessed that vert. McCallum has too much herky-jerky motion, he looks sloppy and his handles are bad. I don't know what that is about.

The hops in this dude isn't obvious????!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOd24TNuSiw

RD2191

07-25-2015, 10:50 PM

ceperez with rookie robdiaz level shit takes tbh

tholdren

07-25-2015, 10:53 PM

The hops in this dude isn't obvious????!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOd24TNuSiw
not based on the one highlight tape I saw. He looks like he has zero reactive strength, but at least he hit that buzzer beater for Sacramento.

ceperez

07-25-2015, 10:55 PM

not based on the one highlight tape I saw. He looks like he has zero reactive strength, but at least he hit that buzzer beater for Sacramento.

So this dude doesn't have hops?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYdUMbzGoTU

tholdren

07-25-2015, 11:00 PM

So this dude doesn't have hops?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYdUMbzGoTU

You must have a reading issue. I said I would have never guessed that he had a huge vertical. Im not scouring the internet looking at scrub videos. I bet McCallum gets MVP next year, simply due to his vert.

ceperez

07-25-2015, 11:00 PM

tholdren

07-25-2015, 11:03 PM

This guy isn't a 'great athlete'?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYdUMbzGoTU
he carried the ball - shitty pg with great vert. typical

ceperez

07-25-2015, 11:11 PM

Going back to the subject of this thread, Jimmer Fredette.

Jimmer is a better ball handler and a better shooter than McCallum. The only question is whether his other deficiencies offset these two other areas. This is where PATFO will make a call whether he sticks around or not.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 04:25 AM

RC says that there is no way they could have afforded Ray McCallum if he was on the free agent open market, and that we were very lucky to be able to trade our second round pick for him. But, you think RC is going to, or should, cut that guy he couldn't have afforded on the open market for a guy in Jimmer that no team wanted.

Seems pretty unlikely, and seems that unless you doubt what RC is telling you about the market, RC and the market both think Ray is better than Jimmer.

I am optimistic about Jimmer as a reclamation project, but I don't think Ray's going to have to be reclaimed to be useful almost immediately.

People say a lot of things at press conferences. RC is on a rookie contract though; so, that is his market if I wanted to get tedious. But sure, maybe a serviceable third string PG would otherwise maybe go for a bit than the rookie contracts. It wasn't a revelation to say something like that.

And no, Buford and the market are not saying that RC is better. For all we know, if Jimmer had been under contract, RC would have made the same deal if it presented itself.

And if we want to talk about who is truly 'better'? Well, check out the per 36 stats; and you'll see that Jimmer blows RC out of the water.

Lastly, people like the DG story and see that Jimmer is down on his luck and they like to use the fashionable term Reclamation Project. That doesn't bother me. But I think you've taken it too literally when you assume that RC is in a position to perform better than Jimmer off the bat. That's just based on nothing substantial from an on court performance perspective whatsoever.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 04:32 AM

The eye-test tells you McCallum just hast more spring and speed than Joseph.

https://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/let-cory-be-cory-2.gif

ceperez

07-26-2015, 07:38 AM

https://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/let-cory-be-cory-2.gif

The eye test tells me that Ibaka actually thought that CoJo was going much higher but was fooled by his lack of hops!

will_spurs

07-26-2015, 08:02 AM

I have no clue who is better or has more upside between CoJo and RayRay, but what is sure is that CoJo isn't worth $7.5MM/y. Not even close. Good for him, though.

cd98

07-26-2015, 08:03 AM

The eye-test tells you McCallum just hast more spring and speed than Joseph.

But if you don't believe it, then let's look at the pre-draft measurements:

Joseph

no step vert: 27.5"
max vertical 35"

McCallum

no step vert: 30.5"
max vertical: 40.0"

satisfied? Ray McCallum not being a great athlete? 40" vertical is not athletic? What planet are you from?

Now add that to Bufford's comment that McCallum can handle the offense better than Joseph. That's a comment on a player that hasn't played a single game for the Spurs. What it means is that Bufford has near zero confidence about Joseph's play making ability.

Based on what RC has said about Ray, we should be optimistic. As to COJO, I think his assest was his strength/size combined with his speed. That's what makes him a better defender than Ray, though not necessarily a better all-around PG.

ceperez

07-26-2015, 08:29 AM

Based on what RC has said about Ray, we should be optimistic. As to COJO, I think his assest was his strength/size combined with his speed. That's what makes him a better defender than Ray, though not necessarily a better all-around PG.

I'm going to concede the fact that Cojo is a better defender than Ray. CoJo has a bit more size and longer arms, however Cojo defense wasn't elite my any measure. He was the best defender among the PG, but that bar was pretty low when you consider it was Parker and Mills that he beat out.

littlecoyotecoin

07-26-2015, 08:32 AM

People say a lot of things at press conferences. RC is on a rookie contract though; so, that is his market if I wanted to get tedious. But sure, maybe a serviceable third string PG would otherwise maybe go for a bit than the rookie contracts. It wasn't a revelation to say something like that.

And no, Buford and the market are not saying that RC is better. For all we know, if Jimmer had been under contract, RC would have made the same deal if it presented itself.

And if we want to talk about who is truly 'better'? Well, check out the per 36 stats; and you'll see that Jimmer blows RC out of the water.

Lastly, people like the DG story and see that Jimmer is down on his luck and they like to use the fashionable term Reclamation Project. That doesn't bother me. But I think you've taken it too literally when you assume that RC is in a position to perform better than Jimmer off the bat. That's just based on nothing substantial from an on court performance perspective whatsoever.

You said RC several times. RC is the GM.

Anyway, so your basis is that you don't believe RC, because anyone can say anything in an interview. I can't argue with that. If you think RC is lying in the interview then I can't very well disprove that. You win.

Jimmer was not on a contract. Because no one wanted him. You can't just suppose a contract for him out of thin air and say "If he was under contract, and McCallum wasn't...McCallum would be in training camp instead of Jimmer!"

Jimmer has been in the league twice as long. He should be getting better. Cojo got better every year. Jimmer got worse. Not saying he can't turn it around, but if he does, it will definitely be a turnaround. He is a perfect candidate for the use of the word "reclamation". He has few NBA opportunities left, apparently. This has nothing to do with Danny Green.

The reason Ray will come in and contribute right away is that he is a point guard, not a combo guard. He will be able to play that position better than a combo guard like Jimmer hopes to be.

I may be too optimistic about Ray, but I think he has a skill set that is going to be able to thrive in San Antonio. If he improves every year like Cojo did (who went from horrible to pretty good in a lot of areas, especially shooting the ball), then Ray is going to be fantastic. I am optimistic about his aggressiveness. It's like the anti-Cojo. Everyone always remembers the Ibaka dunk, but never remembers the times where he dribbled a hole in the ground outside the three point line, or wore a sideways path into the hardwood from sideline to sideline.

He was definitely at his peak when he cashed out and went to Toronto, but I still like today's McCallum over two years ago Cojo, and expect I will like him better than today's Cojo after he gets out of Suckramento, and gets the same opportunity that Cojo had for four years. That can make a world of difference.

Jimmer might be great, in a different role, for similar reasons. But, I believe Mccallum would have had a job in free agency. We know Jimmer did not. And, I believe RC in his interview.

ceperez

07-26-2015, 08:46 AM

You said RC several times. RC is the GM.

Anyway, so your basis is that you don't believe RC, because anyone can say anything in an interview. I can't argue with that. If you think RC is lying in the interview then I can't very well disprove that. You win.

Jimmer was not on a contract. Because no one wanted him. You can't just suppose a contract for him out of thin air and say "If he was under contract, and McCallum wasn't...McCallum would be in training camp instead of Jimmer!"

Jimmer has been in the league twice as long. He should be getting better. Cojo got better every year. Jimmer got worse. Not saying he can't turn it around, but if he does, it will definitely be a turnaround. He is a perfect candidate for the use of the word "reclamation". He has few NBA opportunities left, apparently. This has nothing to do with Danny Green.

The reason Ray will come in and contribute right away is that he is a point guard, not a combo guard. He will be able to play that position better than a combo guard like Jimmer hopes to be.

I may be too optimistic about Ray, but I think he has a skill set that is going to be able to thrive in San Antonio. If he improves every year like Cojo did (who went from horrible to pretty good in a lot of areas, especially shooting the ball), then Ray is going to be fantastic. I am optimistic about his aggressiveness. It's like the anti-Cojo. Everyone always remembers the Ibaka dunk, but never remembers the times where he dribbled a hole in the ground outside the three point line, or wore a sideways path into the hardwood from sideline to sideline.

He was definitely at his peak when he cashed out and went to Toronto, but I still like today's McCallum over two years ago Cojo, and expect I will like him better than today's Cojo after he gets out of Suckramento, and gets the same opportunity that Cojo had for four years. That can make a world of difference.

Jimmer might be great, in a different role, for similar reasons. But, I believe Mccallum would have had a job in free agency. We know Jimmer did not. And, I believe RC in his interview.

Two thumbs up! McCallum is 24 years old, Cojo is younger at 23. My expectation is McCallum will be better this year than Cojo was last year with the Spurs. So I like McCallum over today's Cojo and not a Cojo from two years ago. He spent 3 years playing PG in college for his coach dad. He was effective play PG with a dysfunctional Kings team.

Cojo had the luxury of playing with the highest IQ players in the world and despite that, he couldn't orchestrate the offense!!! Think about that for a second, if the PG can't run offense for Spurs then its not the other players who are ineffective, it's the PG!

Jimmer vs Cojo... I will take Jimmer because of higher upside and better PG skills.
Jimmer vs McCallum... I will take McCallum because athleticism gap offsets weaker PG skills.

ceperez

07-26-2015, 09:02 AM

BTW... some serious analysis of Jimmer at Project Spurs:

http://projectspurs.com/2015-articles/offseason-scouting-report-jimmer-fredette.html

"If Fredette can learn the Spurs’ team defensive schemes in terms of when to provide help, what to do if you get beat off the dribble, then he could have a chance of trying to earn that 15th roster spot, considering he’s also making the spot-up shots he’s being provided on the offensive end, at a respectable percentage."

picnroll

07-26-2015, 09:06 AM

ceperez

07-26-2015, 09:21 AM

As far as PG is concerned it likely doesn't matter CoJo, McCallum, Fredette. Simmons has the potential to be a better all around backup PG than any of them, particularly when paired with Manu or Anderson.

Nice thought... If Simmons ever learns to play PG, he'll be a devastatingly good player. However, realistically, Simmons doesn't have the kind of PG experience as McCallum or Fredette. He barely has any college experience. Did not play PG in the D-league. Nobody is going to trust a rookie for PG duties.

Mugen

07-26-2015, 09:28 AM

:lol Damn nigs my bad....23 page thread about a guy who's ceiling is White Gary Neal tbh

ChumpDumper

07-26-2015, 09:49 AM

Nice thought... If Simmons ever learns to play PG, he'll be a devastatingly good player. However, realistically, Simmons doesn't have the kind of PG experience as McCallum or Fredette. He barely has any college experience. Did not play PG in the D-league. Nobody is going to trust a rookie for PG duties.He did play the point in Austin -- mostly whenever Bryce Cotton was called up.

ceperez

07-26-2015, 09:59 AM

He did play the point in Austin -- mostly whenever Bryce Cotton was called up.

Does this look like a typical PG play to you?

http://static.basket-infos.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/jonathon-simmons2-500x278.jpg

He's not a PG, otherwise the NBA will have to change the rules of the game!

ace3g

07-26-2015, 10:21 AM

He did play the point in Austin -- mostly whenever Bryce Cotton was called up.

This makes a lot of sense along with that article about how Simmons almost called it quits on his career how the Austin Spurs coach told him he would be running the PG spot. Basically changed his perspective on the game, saw things differently, had to read scouting reports, etc.

You could see during the summer league how comfortable he was in the PnR.

Simmons is in the build of a Manu in terms of a SG with PG skills rather than a pure PG.

ChumpDumper

07-26-2015, 10:30 AM

This makes a lot of sense along with that article about how Simmons almost called it quits on his career how the Austin Spurs coach told him he would be running the PG spot. Basically changed his perspective on the game, saw things differently, had to read scouting reports, etc.

You could see during the summer league how comfortable he was in the PnR.PG is the most difficult position to fill in the D-League. Any given year there are a handful of competent point guards in the entire league and they are almost always called up because there is a similar need in the NBA. The D-League might actually be best for shooting guards like Simmons from a pure development standpoint. If a guy has anything resembling an all around game and decent size, it's almost a guarantee he's going to play three positions in the course of a season with all that entails.

ceperez

07-26-2015, 10:30 AM

This makes a lot of sense along with that article about how Simmons almost called it quits on his career how the Austin Spurs coach told him he would be running the PG spot. Basically changed his perspective on the game, saw things differently, had to read scouting reports, etc.

You could see during the summer league how comfortable he was in the PnR.

Simmons is in the build of a Manu in terms of a SG with PG skills rather than a pure PG.

Interesting indeed! Spurs should have a rule that they don't sign anyone under 6'5", that way guys like Simmons will be forced to learn how to play point.

If Simmons is forced to play point, then I'll fire McCallum and waive Fredette!

Honestly, Anderson should be playing point and Simmons on the wing. Defensively, they switch players with Simmons on the PG and Anderson on the SG. Anderson pretty much destroyed Batum in one of the regular season games.

picnroll

07-26-2015, 10:33 AM

A perimeter defense of Simmons, Green and Leonard would be hellacious.

Simmons played almost exclusively point in Vegas. Pretty safe to assume the Spurs were testing him out at that position.

tatteredprince

07-26-2015, 11:13 AM

Come to think of it:

The current Spurs have 8 players who can play point guard this year:

EIGHT!

1) Parker

2) Mills

3) McCallum

4) Fredette

5) Manu

6) Simmons

7) Diaw

8) Anderson

oh my goodness, embarrassment of riches! This must be the richest collection of playmakers in NBA history!

Incredible!

ceperez

07-26-2015, 11:22 AM

tatteredprince

07-26-2015, 11:32 AM

Basketball is a TEAM game, the Spurs can hide the defensive liabilities of certain players.....

i was just impressed how many playmakers we have this season, thats all

tholdren

07-26-2015, 11:41 AM

PG is the most difficult position to fill in the D-League. Any given year there are a handful of competent point guards in the entire league and they are almost always called up because there is a similar need in the NBA. The D-League might actually be best for shooting guards like Simmons from a pure development standpoint. If a guy has anything resembling an all around game and decent size, it's almost a guarantee he's going to play three positions in the course of a season with all that entails.

wholeheartedly agree with this take, but that's just because of how the d-league is comprised. All of these guys in the Dleague were one dimensional scorers, who cannot score effectively, against better, smarter(barely) competition. No one is in the dleague to show their stellar defensive skills because there really is no one with that, and nba teams could care less about defense as they could about getting some junk highlight dunk or contested lucky three.

ceperez

07-26-2015, 11:43 AM

Basketball is a TEAM game, the Spurs can hide the defensive liabilities of certain players.....

i was just impressed how many playmakers we have this season, thats all

But you forgot to include Tim Duncan, a very good point guard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbc6HE_S-ck

tatteredprince

07-26-2015, 11:46 AM

hahaha, you are right...

we have a plethora of shooters, we have a plethora of mid-range shooting bigs, we have a plethora of playmakers

how versatile can we get!?

is this enough now to overthrow the Warriors and demolish the Cavs/Hawks?

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 04:58 PM

You said RC several times. RC is the GM.

Anyway, so your basis is that you don't believe RC, because anyone can say anything in an interview. I can't argue with that. If you think RC is lying in the interview then I can't very well disprove that. You win.

Jimmer was not on a contract. Because no one wanted him. You can't just suppose a contract for him out of thin air and say "If he was under contract, and McCallum wasn't...McCallum would be in training camp instead of Jimmer!"

Jimmer has been in the league twice as long. He should be getting better. Cojo got better every year. Jimmer got worse. Not saying he can't turn it around, but if he does, it will definitely be a turnaround. He is a perfect candidate for the use of the word "reclamation". He has few NBA opportunities left, apparently. This has nothing to do with Danny Green.

The reason Ray will come in and contribute right away is that he is a point guard, not a combo guard. He will be able to play that position better than a combo guard like Jimmer hopes to be.

I may be too optimistic about Ray, but I think he has a skill set that is going to be able to thrive in San Antonio. If he improves every year like Cojo did (who went from horrible to pretty good in a lot of areas, especially shooting the ball), then Ray is going to be fantastic. I am optimistic about his aggressiveness. It's like the anti-Cojo. Everyone always remembers the Ibaka dunk, but never remembers the times where he dribbled a hole in the ground outside the three point line, or wore a sideways path into the hardwood from sideline to sideline.

He was definitely at his peak when he cashed out and went to Toronto, but I still like today's McCallum over two years ago Cojo, and expect I will like him better than today's Cojo after he gets out of Suckramento, and gets the same opportunity that Cojo had for four years. That can make a world of difference.

Jimmer might be great, in a different role, for similar reasons. But, I believe Mccallum would have had a job in free agency. We know Jimmer did not. And, I believe RC in his interview.

First off, I didn't say RC was exactly lying, did I? In fact, I kind of said the opposite. But I did explain the strong limitations to your perceived take of what he said.

You don't know that Jimmer had not received any other contract offers (that's your assumption). In fact, I would guess that it is quite likely that some a bad team or two had made offers and he declined b/c he would rather be getting minutes in Europe for a year than being on the end of the bench on a bad team.

I don't know that Jimmer should be getting "better" when his minutes get cut even further. But last year, Jimmer had arguably his worst season as a pro and his per 36's with scrubs were still on par with McCallum, who was getting consistent minutes with rotation players.

I'll leave your CoJo analysis be other than to say I think he was a serviceable 3rd string PG; and I'm not saying that RM can't be. I'm really just telling you that Jimmer has a ton of upside that RM does not have, imo. And to recap, I argue the notion that RM is more polished; he's not.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 05:01 PM

The reason Ray will come in and contribute right away is that he is a point guard, not a combo guard. He will be able to play that position better than a combo guard like Jimmer hopes to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-v1TTUyhM

Kidd K

07-26-2015, 05:25 PM

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 06:00 PM

You said RC several times. RC is the GM.

Meant RM.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 06:14 PM

Is Jimmer the NBA's Tebow? Dude's considered a high-character guy with a strong work-ethic, but like Tebow, he seems completely against or at least unable to fix his mechanical issues. Yet, he has fanboys pretending that his failures are due to him getting a bad draw instead of realizing their guy simply doesn't have an pro-level game.

If Fredette needs the Spurs to give him open looks for him to be an effective shooter, then he's no better than anyone else. Plenty of guys can hit shots when they're wide open. Personally would rather have Eddie's higher and much-quicker release if I had the choice. Chicago has a spot each year for a undersized chucking SG with little to no defensive game. Recently, that has gone to Brooks, Robinson and Augustine for example. Fredette had a chance to be in that mold but couldn't hang. Also, if he's truly bad on defense, then he's not going to make it on the Spurs either.

Didn't Tebow make it to a championship game; and he then didn't get quite a fair chance after the fact? Of course, I was never a Tebow fan, and I thought he was over-rated; and I admit his throwing issues aren't made up. But in many ways, he took mounds of unfair criticism by people with agendas. Much of that is similar to what Jimmer has faced.

I think you are mis-characterizing the idea that Jimmer needs people to get him open looks... Who is saying that? Jimmer was 94th percentile in pick n' roll; and he is pretty good at creating his own shot for what it's worth. Rather the criticism you refer to is teammates not hitting him for open looks. That's legitimate criticism. Imagine if you had players in the Spurs system routinely missing DG, Mills or Manu for open threes (while taking low percentage plays). Pop wouldn't allow that to happen on a consistent basis. Unfortunately, Jimmer has not had the advantage of not being in dysfunctional systems though.

As for Eddie, you can argue his shot is better at this point. The way he shot in SL, I don't know who does have a better shot necessarily. But you only bring him up if you think he's going to get a critical mass of minutes. So, I think the Spurs are better off letting him marinate for another year in d-league.

ceperez

07-26-2015, 06:28 PM

Didn't Tebow make it to a championship game; and he then didn't get quite a fair chance after the fact? Of course, I was never a Tebow fan, and I thought he was over-rated; and I admit his throwing issues aren't made up. But in many ways, he took mounds of unfair criticism by people with agendas. Much of that is similar to what Jimmer has faced.

I think you are mis-characterizing the idea that Jimmer needs people to get him open looks... Who is saying that? Jimmer was 94th percentile in pick n' roll; and he is pretty good at creating his own shot for what it's worth. Rather the criticism you refer to is teammates not hitting him for open looks. That's legitimate criticism. Imagine if you had players in the Spurs system routinely missing DG, Mills or Manu for open threes (while taking low percentage plays). Pop wouldn't allow that to happen on a consistent basis. Unfortunately, Jimmer has not had the advantage of not being in dysfunctional systems though.

As for Eddie, you can argue his shot is better at this point. The way he shot in SL, I don't know who does have a better shot necessarily. But you only bring him up if you think he's going to get a critical mass of minutes. So, I think the Spurs are better off letting him marinate for another year in d-league.

Your expectations are a too high if you think the Spurs will allow Jimmer to create his own shot. That privilege is reserved to only a few Spurs.

Jimmer needs to accept this fact and learn to play as a role player (see: Steve Kerr). If his ego cannot accommodate that reality, then he will be booted out of the NBA. There will be zero NBA teams that will give him the reigns to create his own shot.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 06:43 PM

Your expectations are a too high if you think the Spurs will allow Jimmer to create his own shot. That privilege is reserved to only a few Spurs.

Jimmer needs to accept this fact and learn to play as a role player (see: Steve Kerr). If his ego cannot accommodate that reality, then he will be booted out of the NBA. There will be zero NBA teams that will give him the reigns to create his own shot.

I really was referring to Jjimmer's ability to perform in the pick n' roll or create with the ball (often when offense breaks down or shot clock running down) rather than just hit open shots or come off screens. I wasn't suggesting that the Spurs would be running Iso's for him.

I think you want to relegate Jimmer to a Steve Kerr player even though he is capable of more (I doubt Pop will be so shortsighted). I'm sure Jimmer will do whatever Pop expects of him. This isn't about his ego. He is one of the more humble players in the NBA frankly. Overly humble IMO.

littlecoyotecoin

07-26-2015, 06:55 PM

Put me in the Chinook camp, regarding Eddie. I hope Eddie gets a chance to compete in camp with Jimmer. I wish both luck, each having a bit of an uphill battle, but Eddie's shooting is beautiful, whereas Jimmer is maybe much better at creating and hitting on the go, but Eddie might be better in a corner or on the edge like an assassin. I don't know we need Jimmer running around chucking. But, I am hopeful for him nonetheless.

littlecoyotecoin

07-26-2015, 07:02 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-v1TTUyhM

Pretty sure I could have said the same about some of the things you've been saying. Keep it classy San Diego. We have a greater need at pure point guard than we do at shooting guard. Period. Jimmer is not a better point guard than Ray, nor is he going to be a better two guard than several of our other two guards. That is not a dumb answer even if you are too dumb to understand it.

McCallum 2.5 assist to turnover ratio, as someone else quoted to you earlier, Jimmer 1.5. And twice as long in the NBA to acclimate himself to the game as Ray.

littlecoyotecoin

07-26-2015, 07:14 PM

First off, I didn't say RC was exactly lying, did I? In fact, I kind of said the opposite. But I did explain the strong limitations to your perceived take of what he said.

You don't know that Jimmer had not received any other contract offers (that's your assumption). In fact, I would guess that it is quite likely that some a bad team or two had made offers and he declined b/c he would rather be getting minutes in Europe for a year than being on the end of the bench on a bad team.

I don't know that Jimmer should be getting "better" when his minutes get cut even further. But last year, Jimmer had arguably his worst season as a pro and his per 36's with scrubs were still on par with McCallum, who was getting consistent minutes with rotation players.

I'll leave your CoJo analysis be other than to say I think he was a serviceable 3rd string PG; and I'm not saying that RM can't be. I'm really just telling you that Jimmer has a ton of upside that RM does not have, imo. And to recap, I argue the notion that RM is more polished; he's not.

I don't know in what context I used the word polished. I am not sure that I did. He's a second year player on a bad team. I see him as pretty raw, with a lot of upside in The Spurs org. Jimmer may have some, too, but he plays more naturally as a two, undersized, of which we already have one, proven, undersized, and a few others in Green, Manu, and Simmons. I Hope he turns out great for us, but he is redundant, fighting an uphill battle to sit on the bench.

Of course he could have turned down a million dollar offer to accept a camp invite instead. Anything is possible, however unlikely it went under the radar of the media, but sure, I guess he could have turned down some super secret deals.

We agree on Cojo. He just played 1/2 string too much to be our 3 string guard. And, he got paid too much to keep, of course.

RM v JF upside. We will have to agree to disagree.

ceperez

07-26-2015, 07:41 PM

I really was referring to Jjimmer's ability to perform in the pick n' roll or create with the ball (often when offense breaks down or shot clock running down) rather than just hit open shots or come off screens. I wasn't suggesting that the Spurs would be running Iso's for him.

I think you want to relegate Jimmer to a Steve Kerr player even though he is capable of more (I doubt Pop will be so shortsighted). I'm sure Jimmer will do whatever Pop expects of him. This isn't about his ego. He is one of the more humble players in the NBA frankly. Overly humble IMO.

Why do folks keep saying he's a humble player when we keep hearing Jimmer fans demanding that he get more touches?

If Jimmer indeed was a guy who has 'gotten over himself' is a high percentage 3 point shooter, then he should already have a guaranteed contract with the Spurs. Unfortunately, he does not because the Spurs are not convinced.

Spurs signed Neal for a multi-year contract on a couple of summer league games. The Spurs for some reason are more careful with Jimmer. If Spurs have doubts about your game then they sign you for an unguaranteed contract... at this time, Spurs are not convinced about Jimmer's ability.

Let's put it this way, Spurs confidence in Jimmer is about the same as Spurs cofindence of Ndoye. That's damn low confidence level.

littlecoyotecoin

07-26-2015, 07:43 PM

First off, I didn't say RC was exactly lying, did I? In fact, I kind of said the opposite. But I did explain the strong limitations to your perceived take of what he said.

You don't know that Jimmer had not received any other contract offers (that's your assumption). In fact, I would guess that it is quite likely that some a bad team or two had made offers and he declined b/c he would rather be getting minutes in Europe for a year than being on the end of the bench on a bad team.

I don't know that Jimmer should be getting "better" when his minutes get cut even further. But last year, Jimmer had arguably his worst season as a pro and his per 36's with scrubs were still on par with McCallum, who was getting consistent minutes with rotation players.

I'll leave your CoJo analysis be other than to say I think he was a serviceable 3rd string PG; and I'm not saying that RM can't be. I'm really just telling you that Jimmer has a ton of upside that RM does not have, imo. And to recap, I argue the notion that RM is more polished; he's not.

Also, regarding your comments about Buford, you said something to the effect of "he can say anything in an interview".

What do you mean by this?

http://www.nba.com/video/games/spurs/2015/07/13/20150712-sl-rc-buford-interview.nba/#$/video/games/spurs/2015/07/13/20150712-sl-rc-buford-interview.nba/index.html

The interview can be found, there. He said that RM can probably run the offense better than CJ, if he was on the free agent market he would have been difficult for us to get, and that he and CJ will have a similar roll, RM starting some nights and playing similar minutes (1500). What are you saying about those comments when you say he can say "anything"? I don't understand. They seem fairly straight forward. I don't think he was using guile. I take those statements at face value. How do you think I should interpret them?

ceperez

07-26-2015, 07:48 PM

Also, regarding your comments about Buford, you said something to the effect of "he can say anything in an interview".

What do you mean by this?

http://www.nba.com/video/games/spurs/2015/07/13/20150712-sl-rc-buford-interview.nba/#$/video/games/spurs/2015/07/13/20150712-sl-rc-buford-interview.nba/index.html

The interview can be found, there. He said that RM can probably run the offense better than CJ, if he was on the free agent market he would have been difficult for us to get, and that he and CJ will have a similar roll, RM starting some nights and playing similar minutes (1500). What are you saying about those comments when you say he can say "anything"? I don't understand. They seem fairly straight forward. I don't think he was using guile. I take those statements at face value. How do you think I should interpret them?

Crystal clear what Bufford said.... folks can be so dense... but it is obvious from Spurs current actions and statements that

(1) RM is better than CJ
(2) RM is expect to play similar minutes as CJ
(3) RM was a bargain
(4) JF isn't a convincing bargain at the vet minimum.

benefactor

07-26-2015, 07:49 PM

folks can be so dense
:lol

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 07:50 PM

Pretty sure I could have said the same about some of the things you've been saying. Keep it classy San Diego. We have a greater need at pure point guard than we do at shooting guard. Period. Jimmer is not a better point guard than Ray, nor is he going to be a better two guard than several of our other two guards. That is not a dumb answer even if you are too dumb to understand it.

McCallum 2.5 assist to turnover ratio, as someone else quoted to you earlier, Jimmer 1.5. And twice as long in the NBA to acclimate himself to the game as Ray.

Last season, Shelvin Mack, John Lucas III, Ronnie Price, Mathew D, and Nate Robinson were five of the top ten guards in assist to turnover ratio. But none of them are close to being top ten guards. It's a fairly cosmetic stat. And in the Spurs system, I'd rather have the guy (Jimmer) who can nail the three than the guy who has to defer cos he's a less than average three shooter (McCallum).

And you're ignorantly speaking of Ray acclimating himself faster than Jimmer. His first two year stats are worse than Jimmer's first two year stats despite RM getting more consistent minutes.

dabom

07-26-2015, 07:54 PM

One got a contract and one got a partial contract. I already know what the spurs prefer.

dabom

07-26-2015, 07:54 PM

I should say picked up a contract.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 07:57 PM

Why do folks keep saying he's a humble player when we keep hearing Jimmer fans demanding that he get more touches?

Because Jimmer and his fans are two different entities. Jimmer is one of the most humble guys in the NBA. A lot of times, that word is thrown around I realize. But that's the reality. His fans are not going to be shy about arguing injustices though.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 07:58 PM

If Jimmer indeed was a guy who has 'gotten over himself' is a high percentage 3 point shooter, then he should already have a guaranteed contract with the Spurs. Unfortunately, he does not because the Spurs are not convinced.

'Getting over yourself' automatically equals a long term contract with a team you've just signed with? I don't understand that logic.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 08:02 PM

Spurs signed Neal for a multi-year contract on a couple of summer league games. The Spurs for some reason are more careful with Jimmer. If Spurs have doubts about your game then they sign you for an unguaranteed contract... at this time, Spurs are not convinced about Jimmer's ability.

Let's put it this way, Spurs confidence in Jimmer is about the same as Spurs cofindence of Ndoye. That's damn low confidence level.

Spurs were smart to sign Neal to multiple years (weren't as deep then, btw). And they were smart to sign Simmons to a two year contract as well (maybe three years would have been better). Spurs did what they did with Jimmer cos he's the 16th contract (assuming Reggie Williams still signed; I've heard conflicting reports). Not signing him to multi years was not an indictment. The business is just not as black and white as you're trying to make it out to be.

dabom

07-26-2015, 08:02 PM

Some one sounds like a jimmy follower

ceperez

07-26-2015, 08:03 PM

'Getting over yourself' automatically equals a long term contract with a team you've just signed with? I don't understand that logic.

The difference between a player with a lot of talent and a player with talent that becomes a Spur. "Getting over oneself" is a very big deal for the Spurs.

littlecoyotecoin

07-26-2015, 08:06 PM

Last season, Shelvin Mack, John Lucas III, Ronnie Price, Mathew D, and Nate Robinson were five of the top ten guards in assist to turnover ratio. But none of them are close to being top ten guards. It's a fairly cosmetic stat. And in the Spurs system, I'd rather have the guy (Jimmer) who can nail the three than the guy who has to defer cos he's a less than average three shooter (McCallum).

And you're ignorantly speaking of Ray acclimating himself faster than Jimmer. His first two year stats aren't any better.

Ray almost doubled Jimmer's three point shooting last year, lol. And Ray isn't predominantly a jump shooter. Jimmer is supposed to be. It's his one true virtue, supposedly. Look, I was supportive of Daye because he was 6'11" and could shoot it, handle the ball and dribble/pass a little. I really liked some aspects of his game, but number one was shooting. He came in and couldn't shoot worth a damn. All Jimmer's secondary virtues, and I agree he has some, will be ignored cast out, if he can't do the one thing: shoot. He's coming off .188 from 3. Unless he totally lights it up in training camp, they probably won't care that he can also dribble a little, and pass a little...he should be able to, he's a 6'2" guard that doesn't play defense! So, don't open that can of worms. Cross your fingers they go in for him in TC. Asst/TO, if it doesn't support your argument, find a few other guards that aren't good and have good ratios...boom...stat is bad throw it out. Those guards might not be good, but they aren't bad BECAUSE they they have lots of assists in comparison to their relatively few turnovers. They're bad DESPITE having a good ratio. Sheesh. But, if you have a bad ratio, that is definitely NOT GOOD. No one wants a guard with lots of turnovers and relatively few assists. No. You don't get to throw out the stat because it makes Jimmer look bad.

ceperez

07-26-2015, 08:07 PM

Spurs were smart to sign Neal to multiple years (weren't as deep then, btw). And they were smart to sign Simmons to a two year contract as well (maybe three years would have been better). Spurs did what they did with Jimmer cos he's the 16th contract (assuming Reggie Williams still signed; I've heard conflicting reports). Not signing him to multi years was not an indictment. The business is just not as black and white as you're trying to make it out to be.

Don't you get it? If Jimmer was such a steal, then picking him up for the #15 slot would be a no-brainer. Apparently it isn't an easy decision, Spurs are not convinced.

Which is interesting, if Spurs cut Jimmer, then it is practically the end of his career in the NBA. Why? Because if the Spurs can't 'fix' Jimmer, then nobody can.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 08:16 PM

Also, regarding your comments about Buford, you said something to the effect of "he can say anything in an interview".

What do you mean by this?

http://www.nba.com/video/games/spurs/2015/07/13/20150712-sl-rc-buford-interview.nba/#$/video/games/spurs/2015/07/13/20150712-sl-rc-buford-interview.nba/index.html

The interview can be found, there. He said that RM can probably run the offense better than CJ, if he was on the free agent market he would have been difficult for us to get, and that he and CJ will have a similar roll, RM starting some nights and playing similar minutes (1500). What are you saying about those comments when you say he can say "anything"? I don't understand. They seem fairly straight forward. I don't think he was using guile. I take those statements at face value. How do you think I should interpret them?

RC simply said that that if RM was in the free agent market, that he would have been a "hard get." All's he's saying is he thinks someone would've likely paid more than the league minimum for him. If anyone would have paid two or three million or more for RM in that hypothetical situation, I doubt the Spurs would've matched. He'd have had to've agreed to a minimum contract just like Jimmer did.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 08:21 PM

Don't you get it? If Jimmer was such a steal, then picking him up for the #15 slot would be a no-brainer. Apparently it isn't an easy decision, Spurs are not convinced.

Which is interesting, if Spurs cut Jimmer, then it is practically the end of his career in the NBA. Why? Because if the Spurs can't 'fix' Jimmer, then nobody can.

Jimmer is a great value. That doesn't mean that the Spurs don't have options, dude.

You're in the Jimmer needs to be fixed camp, btw. That's not so much me. I think he's a guy who can produce right away. None of that means he doesn't have areas of his game to work on.

dabom

07-26-2015, 08:22 PM

Who says jimmer could have gotten other contracts from other teams?

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 08:25 PM

Ray almost doubled Jimmer's three point shooting last year, lol. And Ray isn't predominantly a jump shooter. Jimmer is supposed to be. It's his one true virtue, supposedly. Look, I was supportive of Daye because he was 6'11" and could shoot it, handle the ball and dribble/pass a little. I really liked some aspects of his game, but number one was shooting. He came in and couldn't shoot worth a damn. All Jimmer's secondary virtues, and I agree he has some, will be ignored cast out, if he can't do the one thing: shoot. He's coming off .188 from 3. Unless he totally lights it up in training camp, they probably won't care that he can also dribble a little, and pass a little...he should be able to, he's a 6'2" guard that doesn't play defense! So, don't open that can of worms. Cross your fingers they go in for him in TC. Asst/TO, if it doesn't support your argument, find a few other guards that aren't good and have good ratios...boom...stat is bad throw it out. Those guards might not be good, but they aren't bad BECAUSE they they have lots of assists in comparison to their relatively few turnovers. They're bad DESPITE having a good ratio. Sheesh. But, if you have a bad ratio, that is definitely NOT GOOD. No one wants a guard with lots of turnovers and relatively few assists. No. You don't get to throw out the stat because it makes Jimmer look bad.

30>19 is almost doubling?

Anyways, last year was a down year. I'll be the first to tell you that if Jimmer doesn't drop bombs like he's able, his career will be cut short. But everyone and their dog knows that Jimmer is one of the best shooters around. So, the question you should be asking yourself is why the dramatic dip in shooting? Or you can misguidedly try to make the case that RM is a better shooter than Jimmer; up to you, I guess.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 08:31 PM

..stat is bad throw it out. Those guards might not be good, but they aren't bad BECAUSE they they have lots of assists in comparison to their relatively few turnovers. They're bad DESPITE having a good ratio. Sheesh. But, if you have a bad ratio, that is definitely NOT GOOD. No one wants a guard with lots of turnovers and relatively few assists. No. You don't get to throw out the stat because it makes Jimmer look bad.

Yea, I guess nobody wanted Kobe and his terrible assist to turnover ratio...oh, wait.

I'm not saying that a:t is a bad stat. I'm saying it's not what you make it out to be. Certainly though, there's room for improvement. And it should improve now that Jimmer's going to a team with better finishers. He does need to work on his handles though. That's an area of his game that I think he neglected a bit. He should've did what Curry did and hired a ball handler specialist to put him through drills.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 08:34 PM

The difference between a player with a lot of talent and a player with talent that becomes a Spur. "Getting over oneself" is a very big deal for the Spurs.

Yea, that's not a counter to what I was arguing. And Jimmer is 'over himself' regardless.

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 08:39 PM

One got a contract and one got a partial contract. I already know what the spurs prefer.

I don't think I'd argue that RM doesn't have the upper hand in some fashion at this point. But Jimmer is instant offense; and once we see him lighting teams up, then your argument's meaning won't seem like what you think it is.

Nathan89

07-26-2015, 08:43 PM

Spurtacular

07-26-2015, 08:56 PM

Very unlikely that Jimmer got an offer from another team(not sure if someone claimed that or not). He's going to have to really outplay some players that already have guaranteed contracts to make the team.

My understanding is that Reggie Williams is signed with a partial guarantee like Jimmer. So, I think the decision on the most basic level is between them. That doesn't mean that Eddie can't get the spot or that McCallum can't be cut. I think that Jimmer will make the squad if he plays like he's capable.

littlecoyotecoin

07-26-2015, 09:20 PM

Yea, I guess nobody wanted Kobe and his terrible assist to turnover ratio...oh, wait.

I'm not saying that a:t is a bad stat. I'm saying it's not what you make it out to be. Certainly though, there's room for improvement. And it should improve now that Jimmer's going to a team with better finishers. He does need to work on his handles though. That's an area of his game that I think he neglected a bit. He should've did what Curry did and hired a ball handler specialist to put him through drills.

Let's be clear, I didn't make it out to be anything. It's widely used. I was also not even the first to bring it up. Someone else told you how bad Jimmer's ratio was. They were off a little though as it's about 1.75. Still shitty. But, not me. I didn't make it out to be anything it is not, or even bring it up. It is one stat of many, it gives some glimpse, and it is not a positive one. I used their number, but do agree with them. And, Kobe? LMFAO. You're comparing a HOFer with Jimmer based upon his asst to turnover ratio. No, Kobe's ratio isn't that relevant. Kobe had a few other things to hang his hat on when he sold himself on the market. You are tryin' to market a limited Jimmer as a point guard, quite significantly, and Jimmer doesn't have Kobe's other talents. So, yes, Jimmer's ratio will be relevant and scrutinized. Lastly, one of the most criticized aspects of Kobe's game was he was a black hole that didn' get his teammates involved, so even that aspect of Kobe's game was scrutinized! I don't know that it's a win for you to be comparing him to Kobe. And, Kobe is not a PG, either. Compare him to PG if you want to talk up his ability to play that position and talk down McCallum's, but you probably tried to find some other PG with shitty ratios and found out they were all shitty players so you ran with Kobe.

But, could he improve in a better situation, sure. He could. But, he still has an uphill battle vs the points as a point, or the shootings as a shooting guard.

littlecoyotecoin

07-26-2015, 09:24 PM

McCallum can't be cut.

I think I'm going to enjoy the rest of my evening now offline, but I urge you to rethink and listen to that interview if you have any hope that McCallum will be cut.

tholdren

07-26-2015, 09:35 PM

ChumpDumper

07-26-2015, 09:37 PM

My understanding is that Reggie Williams is signed with a partial guarantee like Jimmer. So, I think the decision on the most basic level is between them. That doesn't mean that Eddie can't get the spot or that McCallum can't be cut. I think that Jimmer will make the squad if he plays like he's capable.No way in hell McCallum will be cut.

tholdren

07-26-2015, 09:50 PM

No way in hell McCallum will be cut.
but he probably should be

ChumpDumper

07-26-2015, 09:53 PM

but he probably should beI doubt any of us have seen him play enough to make that call.

Vito Corleone

07-26-2015, 09:57 PM

Let's be honest here..if Fredette was Black, this thread wouldn't be 22 pages, tbh:lol..

Okay, I'll be honest.

He is a high draft pick that has been on a number of shitty teams but if you watched him in college you know he has some ability. Most of us look forward to seeing what he can do in San Antonio, not because he is white, but because he has ability and now a team that can bring it out.

tholdren

07-26-2015, 09:57 PM

I doubt any of us have seen him play enough to make that call.
he looks shitty to me, and out of control. Its all relevant though, because all that playing in the nba acquires is experience. Give him some time... but play Jimmer first.

Chinook

07-26-2015, 10:00 PM

Didn't Tebow make it to a championship game; and he then didn't get quite a fair chance after the fact?

Tebow won one playoff game and then got destroyed. Even when he was "winning", he was horrible statistically. The point I was making is that despite being a high-character guy, he didn't seem to think he needed to make obvious changes to his game to make it to the pros. The same seems true of Jimmer. He's been in the league for too damned long to shoot like his does.

I think you are mis-characterizing the idea that Jimmer needs people to get him open looks.

Essentially, people who are arguing that the Spurs' system will get the best out of him are asserting that the looks he'll get will allow him to show how good of a shooter he is. But there are probably a hundred players who can make threes at a good rate if all they do is spot up. I'd much rather have Eddie, who's a better shooter and bigger (and younger) over Jimmer for the role Fredette would have.

But you only bring him up if you think he's going to get a critical mass of minutes.

Don't understand this at all.

ChumpDumper

07-26-2015, 10:06 PM

he looks shitty to me, and out of control. Its all relevant though, because all that playing in the nba acquires is experience. Give him some time... but play Jimmer first.Tough to see Jimmer's making the routine.

Holden_Caulfield

07-26-2015, 10:08 PM

i wonder when will playjimmer trolll show up

Vito Corleone

07-26-2015, 10:23 PM

Here is the question I have.

If McCallum is so much better than Jimmer, why did San Antonio sign Jimmer? Why waste the money on a guy they know will not make the team. Could have gotten a young D League guy with potential for that.

If you don't know, you should look at Green. He is a guy everyone else gave up on, but the Spurs brought him in and made him exceptional, I see them doing the same with JF.

TVI

07-26-2015, 10:28 PM

Wow...25 pages and still going strong...all for a 15th slot guy...

impressive...

Chinook

07-26-2015, 10:32 PM

Here is the question I have.

If McCallum is so much better than Jimmer, why did San Antonio sign Jimmer? Why waste the money on a guy they know will not make the team. Could have gotten a young D League guy with potential for that.

They have an open spot counting McCallum. Despite the takes from some posters here, there is no competition between them for a roster spot.

If you don't know, you should look at Green. He is a guy everyone else gave up on, but the Spurs brought him in and made him exceptional, I see them doing the same with JF.

We go through this any time a bust shows up on the Spurs. Not every player who gets cut is Danny Green. And to say the Spurs made him is misleading. He worked his ass off in that lost year to become a clearer role-player, taking 1000 shots a day to improve. He also made a commitment to being a hustle guy and changing his entire perspective on his own talent. Few players (especially those on the league's fringe) have Green's dedication or humility, and honestly, it doesn't look like Jimmer is one of those given the fact that his shot is still broken after all these years.

Fredette is going to have to put college behind him and figure out what he needs to fix to become a serviceable NBA player. If he has the attitude of many of his fans, he only has three more months left in his NBA career.

jeebus

07-26-2015, 10:55 PM

Haven't seen spurfag this hard for a shitty player since Fat Fuck Curry got a camp invite.

Birn

07-26-2015, 11:00 PM

They have an open spot counting McCallum. Despite the takes from some posters here, there is no competition between them for a roster spot.

We go through this any time a bust shows up on the Spurs. Not every player who gets cut is Danny Green. And to say the Spurs made him is misleading. He worked his ass off in that lost year to become a clearer role-player, taking 1000 shots a day to improve. He also made a commitment to being a hustle guy and changing his entire perspective on his own talent. Few players (especially those on the league's fringe) have Green's dedication or humility, and honestly, it doesn't look like Jimmer is one of those given the fact that his shot is still broken after all these years.

Fredette is going to have to put college behind him and figure out what he needs to fix to become a serviceable NBA player. If he has the attitude of many of his fans, he only has three more months left in his NBA career.

Thank God you don't evaluate NBA players for an NBA team. You seem very confident that he won't work out and will be cut from training camp. Fortunately, the Spurs have highly respected and well trained player personnel people and development coaches. They will give him and the other camp invites every opportunity to show they deserve that final spot. They have no preconceived conclusions about any players before camp starts. If Jimmer makes the team it's because he earned it. If he doesn't, there's no harm to the Spurs. To me, this seems like a good move with the potential to get a player with some potential upside if in the right system. There are examples of many guards who have bounced around before finding the right fit - I.e Steve Kerr, John Paxson, John Starks, Danny Green, Jason Williams, etc.

Chinook

07-27-2015, 04:41 AM

Thank God you don't evaluate NBA players for an NBA team. You seem very confident that he won't work out and will be cut from training camp.

What a stupid take. The Spurs clearly aren't confident in Fredette's place on the team, because they didn't guarantee for the year. It's just completely likely that he'll be cut during training camp.

Fortunately, the Spurs have highly respected and well trained player personnel people and development coaches. They will give him and the other camp invites every opportunity to show they deserve that final spot.

He'll only get "every opportunity" if he plays like he's worth it off the bat.

They have no preconceived conclusions about any players before camp starts.

Of course they do. That's how they decide who to pursue for camp spots.

If Jimmer makes the team it's because he earned it. If he doesn't, there's no harm to the Spurs.

Duh. I don't think anyone has said otherwise.

To me, this seems like a good move with the potential to get a player with some potential upside if in the right system.

That's fine. Last time I checked, I didn't criticize the Spurs' decision to make this move at all. Thinking Fredette is not a good player isn't he same thing as thinking the Spurs shouldn't have taken a chance on him.

There are examples of many guards who have bounced around before finding the right fit - I.e Steve Kerr, John Paxson, John Starks, Danny Green, Jason Williams, etc.

At least the recent guys on that list seem more like players who matured enough to fit their roles. Again, in between getting cut by the Cavs and signed on with the Spurs for good, Green went through a lot of growth with his attitude and game. There's a really long article that's been posted on this site a few times detailing it. To chalk his development simply to the "Spurs system" is such a flat analysis. Dude simply worked hard to get back into the league. From the little I've seen of Jimmer, he still hasn't gotten to that point. He still has the exact game he had in college. If he's sitting back and thinking "The Spurs will be able to showcase my talents," then he's very far from a roster spot, even though the team has thusofar signed no competition.