2013 General Free Agent Signings/News and Trades

[Bruno]

That's not an assumption I would make.

It seems unlikely that Spurs and Wolves would spend time trying to work out a S&T if Spurs and Kirilenko were far on what his next contract would be.

[Baam]

Well you can look at it like Spurs having 5 players to play SG and SF with Leonard, Ginobili, Green, Belinelli and Green. 3 of them (Leonard, Green and Ginobili) can play SF and 4 of them (Green, Ginobili, Belinelli and De Colo) can play SG.

Ok I can hear that line of thinking but I don't like it defensively.

Green is an incredible PG defender, a decent SG defender and not a very good SF defender...

It seems too small on the wings...

Compared to contenders like Indiana (Stephenson who is a bull, Granger and George) or the Bulls (Butler and Deng) it feels weak.

[Mel_13]

It seems unlikely that Spurs and Wolves would spend time trying to work out a S&T if Spurs and Kirilenko were far on what his next contract would be.

Again, we have absolutely no idea how much time was spent trying to work out a deal. I understand that you, as usual, present an interpretation that fits the facts. It's not the only plausible interpretation, at least IMHO.

[Bruno]

Again, we have absolutely no idea how much time was spent trying to work out a deal. I understand that you, as usual, present an interpretation that fits the facts. It's not the only plausible interpretation, at least IMHO.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

[Mel_13]

I guess we will agree to disagree.

:toast

[Bruno]

Ok I can hear that line of thinking but I don't like it defensively.

Agree, I don't like it too. It's just my guess on how Spurs FO see the roster.

[Chinook]

It seems unlikely that Spurs and Wolves would spend time trying to work out a S&T if Spurs and Kirilenko were far on what his next contract would be.

But then there's the opportunity cost that comes with using cap space as opposed to a S&T. I know you understand better than most of us the benefits of trading for Kirilenko as opposed to signing him outright. I doubt the Spurs really cared about the actual salary they were paying Kirilenko. They probably weren't willing to give up so much flexibility for him, though. By using cap space, the Spurs would not have been able to get Pendergraph, and they would have had to give up Neal's rights. They would also had to get Ginobili to take a smaller deal.

By trading for him, the Spurs would have left all of those options open while also being able to give Kirilenko a bigger deal for the same player movement. Amnestying Bonner and trading De Colo for nothing would have given the Spurs $5.4 Million in cap space, while also killing their MLE. On the other hand, trading De Colo and Bonner for Kirlenko, would have given the Spurs $8.1 Million to offer.

To me, this signals that Mel_13 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6168) is correct that the Spurs just didn't want to pay that much for Kirilenko. As silly as it sounds, they may not have thought he was worth losing Neal's rights and potentially alienating Ginobili, not the mention the picks it would have taken to make it all work.

[Chinook]

You act like the Kawhi Leonard trade wasn't a big deal...

It's not about change for the sake of change it's about moral and fresh blood.

They are tired, old and demoralized, about to start a long season that will probably see Duncan and Manu get quite a bit worse, maybe even Parker...

Imo they're thinking that it can't go any better with what they have currently, 7th, 6th and 5th seed in the way to the Finals? Can you say that the red sea parted itself? Healthy Manu and injured Westbrook, was it real life??

They need some reason to feel good about their chances I agree with Bruno 100%.

I for one know I'm not renewing my league pass next season if the roster stays the way it is, I know how that movie gonna end already...

The Leonard trade was a big deal, but it wasn't supposed to be a big deal so quickly. It certainly seems like a slam-dunk deal now, but when it happened, it was very unclear how it was going to work out.

Fresh blood is pretty much change for change's sake. I have been a person on this site that has argued for the team to continue it's youth movement, so I definitely understand the benefit of bringing in new faces. But the team should not have moved players around just to hope something good happens. That's how teams like the Clippers do things. I was all in favor of getting a good piece (Lord knows I spoke about it many times in the Think Tank), but that doesn't mean that getting no one is a worst-case scenario. There weren't a lot of players out there that would significantly upgrade the roster.

Honestly, I feel good about the Spurs' chances next year. I think they would have made it to the Finals even if Westbrook and Bryant were healthy. Green and Leonard (and Splitter in the WCF), were improved enough to give me that confidence. Now without Martin, I don't think the Thunder make it out of the second round for the next two seasons. Obviously, the Lakers don't seem like much of a threat now, and the Clippers might be better, but the Spurs are still clearly ahead of them.

When it comes down to it, the Spurs are pretty much set in their top eight players, so there's really no one who was going to come in and make a big impact after the team signed Belinelli. The team also has plenty of assets to get some help mid-season if they need it. Also, if Duncan falls off next year, the Spurs are likely dead in the water anyway. So the Spurs pretty much have to cross their fingers either way.

[Hoops Czar]

But then there's the opportunity cost that comes with using cap space as opposed to a S&T. I know you understand better than most of us the benefits of trading for Kirilenko as opposed to signing him outright. I doubt the Spurs really cared about the actual salary they were paying Kirilenko. They probably weren't willing to give up so much flexibility for him, though. By using cap space, the Spurs would not have been able to get Pendergraph, and they would have had to give up Neal's rights. They would also had to get Ginobili to take a smaller deal.

By trading for him, the Spurs would have left all of those options open while also being able to give Kirilenko a bigger deal for the same player movement. Amnestying Bonner and trading De Colo for nothing would have given the Spurs $5.4 Million in cap space, while also killing their MLE. On the other hand, trading De Colo and Bonner for Kirlenko, would have given the Spurs $8.1 Million to offer.

To me, this signals that Mel_13 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6168) is correct that the Spurs just didn't want to pay that much for Kirilenko. As silly as it sounds, they may not have thought he was worth losing Neal's rights and potentially alienating Ginobili, not the mention the picks it would have taken to make it all work.

OR Minnesota didn't want De Colo and Bonner.

[Chinook]

OR Minnesota didn't want De Colo and Bonner.

The Wolves didn't need to take them. The Spurs could have paid a team like the Jazz to take Bonner, while just dumping De Colo to a team like Philadelphia. The Spurs just didn't want to pay that price.

[Mel_13]

OR Minnesota didn't want De Colo and Bonner.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive. You do highlight, however, the difficulties involved in executing a successful S&T. It's at least a three-sided affair, any one of which can kill the deal.

[mountainballer]

When it comes down to it, the Spurs are pretty much set in their top eight players, so there's really no one who was going to come in and make a big impact after the team signed Belinelli. The team also has plenty of assets to get some help mid-season if they need it. Also, if Duncan falls off next year, the Spurs are likely dead in the water anyway. So the Spurs pretty much have to cross their fingers either way.

this.
if you don't feel you can get a top 6 or 7 player for your rotation via FA, why even try? there is a good chance that the current wing group can still improve. we assume that KL will, DG might slightly improve and Manu shouldn't fall under his 12-13 level. replacing Neal with Beli might as well result in a small improvement. so the best (the only?) chance for the Spurs will be a trade at dealine. till that point this group won't have a problem to carry this team to a good PO position and if they do have, the team can react more specific to the teams needs. at dealine they have the assets (expiring contracts in various sizes plus their 2014 pick). there will be teams that struggle and already focus on 2014 draft and free agency. (for example Denver. I think they will be out of the PO race at deadline and that there will be a good chance to get a player like Wilson Chandler.)

[Bruno]

Something not to forget with Ginobili at SF is that while he could struggle against the biggest ones (and not that much because of his toughness), big SFs will struggles defending against him. Pair Ginobili with Belinelli at SG to avoid the other team to cross matchups and Spurs will put a lot of pressure offensively against a team with a big SF. At the end, Spurs will end up getting the better end of these mismatches most of the time.

My biggest issue with the lack of another true SF is when Spurs will have to go small. Spurs don't have a lot of mobility at the PF spot with players like Splitter, Diaw, Bonner or Pendergraph. It will force them to often go small and it that case a second true SF will be really missed. If Spurs could get a mobile PF which would allow them more to stay big, then the lack of a true backup SF would be way less problematic.

[ElNono]

Looking at what the Spurs have done, I'm going to disagree that Manu will play the SF position much at all.... I expect him to back up Green at SG while Tony is still in there, and then take the backup PG role when Tony rests and possibly Bellineli comes in for him. Manu will play 20-25 mins a night, much like last season, and Tony will probably start getting his minutes shaved off here or there, so there will be time for a CJ/DeColo backcourt too... I expect Green to be the backup SF. We're thin in that position and can't afford an injury, but I suspect the FO will look for options mid-season to patch that hole.

[look_at_g_shred]

Manu and Marco will rotate the backup of pg position come playoffs a line up of Manu/Marco/Green/Bonner/Diaw is very very likely.

[ElNono]

I can't event think about playoffs right now, I think this roster has some big questions marks that will be unfolding as the season moves along.

[Strategic]

For 1), the two most obvious answers would be that Spurs didn't like the available FA at the SF spot or that they rather have Ginobili playing SF than SG. Given that they agree to a deal with Belinelli very soon in the off-season (July 4th), I would think that it's more because that wnat to play Ginobili at the SF spot.

For 2), it could be because Spurs are still waiting for a specific player or because when there will have minutes available at SG/SF, their intent is to give them at De Colo. Spurs were ready to fill their 15th roster spot on Oden so my guess is that want to keep some minutes to De Colo by not adding another SF. I would be more willing to go with option two because if Manu is on the court at SF he will still want to bring the ball up the court and thus fubar the offense.

[Hoops Czar]

The Wolves didn't need to take them. The Spurs could have paid a team like the Jazz to take Bonner, while just dumping De Colo to a team like Philadelphia. The Spurs just didn't want to pay that price.


The two positions are not mutually exclusive. You do highlight, however, the difficulties involved in executing a successful S&T. It's at least a three-sided affair, any one of which can kill the deal.

The downside to using the mobile site is that you can't see who replied to you.

Anyways, I get that. The problem is Bonner wouldn't be nearly as effective on a bad team as he currently is for the Spurs. That makes it pretty unlikely a team like the Jazz would be interested in him even as an expiring. De Colo is NBA fodder and I can't see any team wanting him even as the 15th man.

[Chinook]

Nah, you can't use Mel's response as a retort to what I was saying. Pretty much, Minnesota didn't have to take Bonner or De Colo, provided the Spurs REALLY wanted Kirilenko. However, if the Spurs didn't want to pay some team to take them, then a deal could not be struck. That's not Minnesota obstructing the deal so much as the Spurs pulling out.

[Hoops Czar]

Nah, you can't use Mel's response as a retort to what I was saying. Pretty much, Minnesota didn't have to take Bonner or De Colo, provided the Spurs REALLY wanted Kirilenko. However, if the Spurs didn't want to pay some team to take them, then a deal could not be struck. That's not Minnesota obstructing the deal so much as the Spurs pulling out.

Read it again.

Edit: just to your point about "if the Spurs didn't want to pay some team...." why the hell would the Spurs pay some team to take them? They could have just amnestied Bonner and De Colo is the Spurs little pet project. When that project fail miserably, don't expect another team to be there to bail them out. He's not an NBA caliber player. Any GM with working peepers already knows this. When his contract is up, it wouldn't surprise me if he goes back from which he came.

If the Spurs wanted Kirilinko, they shouldn't have misused the MLE.

[Chinook]

Read it again.

Edit: just to your point about "if the Spurs didn't want to pay some team...." why the hell would the Spurs pay some team to take them? They could have just amnestied Bonner and De Colo is the Spurs little pet project. When that project fail miserably, don't expect another team to be there to bail them out. He's not an NBA caliber player. Any GM with working peepers already knows this. When his contract is up, it wouldn't surprise me if he goes back from which he came.

If the Spurs wanted Kirilinko, they shouldn't have misused the MLE.

I didn't see that you actually said something when you quoted me and Mel. When I replied, your post only had our two quotes, so I thought you were using his as a response to mine. I apologize for the confusion.

As to your edit, I said in an earlier post that the Spurs actually have more financial flexibility by keeping Bonner than they would have by releasing him -- especially after they gave Ginobili his deal. The Spurs could trade him and De Colo for up to $8.5 Million in salary, whereas amnestying Bonner and salary-dumping De Colo would only have gotten them $5.4 Million. Therefore, if the Spurs and Kirilenko had agreed to, say, a $16 Million/2 deal, then it would best serve the team to trade for him rather than signing him, as it would effectively cost them $5.4 Million in a sign-and-trade, while it would have cost them about $13.6 Million to sign him outright when you count his first year, the lost MLE (replaced by the room exception) Neal's hold (which didn't amount to anything in retrospect but still was a consideration at the time) and the extra $2 Million they needed to keep Ginobili happy.

So it was the choice of AK versus Neal (at the time), Pendergraph or Belinelli and Ginobili's happiness. As weird as it may seem for the Spurs to not trade all that for Kirilenko, it would only highlight that the team did not really want him that badly.

EDIT: I agree on the Spurs wasting their MLE. I think they misread the market for Neal, which caused them to sign Belinelli for the same deal, which killed their MLE. People blame Pendergraph, but he wasn't the reason why the Spurs lost flexibility. They never intended to go under the cap this season. I don't think Kirilenko was willing to take the MLE at the time, though, so I don't blame them not getting him on that.

[mountainballer]

so many elaborated theories.......and still this might have been one of the more simple off seasons for the Spurs and they just did, what the check list required.

they needed to re sign Tiago, b/c they knew they won't find a replacement via FA, even with the cap space to offer a significant contract. they might have hoped, that this can be done slightly less expensive, but I'm pretty sure they were prepared to spend this number. (they knew at least one team will offer something in the 10M range and Blazers did). the number for the Manu extension isn't a surprise as well. so IMO there has never been an elaborated scenario that operated with the cap room.
it was as simple as this: re sign Tiago and Manu via bird rights, replace Blair and Neal via MLE. (the BAE wasn't available anyhow)
maybe plan A was to offer the full MLE to AK (let's assume they did) and when they learned he won't sign for the MLE (remember, before the infamous Nets deal, he was talking about 3 years at a per number close to what he left in Minny) they just turned to plan B.
I don't think MLE was wasted, I might turn out to have been well invested.
I can even see that the Spurs have been interested in Beli for quite some time. might have been a no brainer, when they could get this deal done at this number. so IMO the MLE was reserved for a Beli bid and they would have spend an extended share, if necessary to outbid an other team.

I'm quite interested how this team will work next season. I feel that Beli will fit well and Pendergraph will at least provide what Blair did. and at dealine they will to pull a quality player.

[Texas_Ranger]

just heard the spurs were interested in Beno..... so many guards would blow my brain!! I guess the Spurs FO is pretty stupid.

[xmas1997]

just heard the spurs were interested in Beno..... so many guards would blow my brain!! I guess the Spurs FO is pretty stupid.


Where?

[Texas_Ranger]

Where?

on a slovenian site.

[Bruno]

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_favorite_to_land_pg_udrih_NIbC6CdCekVaBdv59 mc8gN


Memphis and San Antonio were also courting Udrih

Spurs have been linked with Mo Williams, Bobby Brown and now Udrih. It's possible they are indeed looking at adding a PG.

[xmas1997]

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/knicks_favorite_to_land_pg_udrih_NIbC6CdCekVaBdv59 mc8gN



Spurs have been linked with Mo Williams, Bobby Brown and now Udrih. It's possible they are indeed looking at adding a PG.


8 guards? This has to be one of the most confusing off seasons ever!
I seriously doubt he would want to come back here after what happened last time.

[Texas_Ranger]

it's like the thing with 7 guards wasn't enough, we need 5 PG's on the team. I don't know, do the Spurs intend to trade a lot of guards for a SF or the're just really dumb and want to play really, really small.

[bklynspursfan]

Al Iannazzone ‏@Al_Iannazzone (https://twitter.com/Al_Iannazzone)4m (https://twitter.com/Al_Iannazzone/status/365473326778433537)
Beno Udrih will sign a one-year deal with the Knicks according to a league source.

[xmas1997]

it's like the thing with 7 guards wasn't enough, we need 5 PG's on the team. I don't know, do the Spurs intend to trade a lot of guards for a SF or the're just really dumb and want to play really, really small.


I think it's plain that they aren't dumb, but maybe they are in the Twilight Zone or something. This is really befuddling!

[bklynspursfan]

Marc Stein ‏@ESPNSteinLine (https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine)59s (https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine/status/365474531923595265)
Udrih was down to Knicks and Grizz and set up face-to-face meetings with both teams this week. But sources say he chose Knicks last night

[xmas1997]

Al Iannazzone ‏@Al_Iannazzone (https://twitter.com/Al_Iannazzone)4m (https://twitter.com/Al_Iannazzone/status/365473326778433537)
Beno Udrih will sign a one-year deal with the Knicks according to a league source.

I knew he wouldn't want to come back here.

[Texas_Ranger]

wow, the Knicks had to guarantee him at least 20 minutes a night if he gonna get just 1,2 millions. I am surprised he didn't go for the money this time.

[Bruno]

If Spurs aren't sold on Joseph, don't see Mills as more than a 3rd stringer and have decided to play De Colo at the SG spot, looking for a PG kinda makes sense. It will create a number issue so it would be a good idea to trade away some of the guards if they add another PG.

[elemento]

Considering the moves SA has made, they have to be sold on Joseph.

And as a much as people hate it, we will see Manu running the 2nd unit again this season.

[Aremid]

Perfect! Goodbye any chance at a championship! Thanks RC

[DesignatedT]

Lol the Spurs didn't want Beno back.

[iManu]

Beasley + Psychiatrist > Kirilenko

It would have to be a full time shrink, though. I'd take $100,000 to tell him that he's not the only person on the planet. Hell, I'd pay to do it.

[CGD]

Don't really see the lack of a backup SF as too big a problem unless Leonard gets injured. If they can't find find a suitable backup between now and the start of the season, I can see the spurs using Bertrans injury to leverage a cheap longterm deal now. They can control his rehab and have him playing at Toros by years end. If they need to make a move the spurs have at least 3 expirings that can be moved at the deadline of a peice.

[ace3g]

Even if Bertans comes back healthy from his knee injury, that is still a lot of risk on a player who has never played a minute of NBA basketball to be your back up SF.

Also a big risk hoping you find a legit SF during trade deadline.

Having 2 SFs is vital in today's small ball line ups.

[CGD]

^ Matchup-wise I don't know how "vital" it really is unless the Spurs are playing one of the few teams in the league that have a premier SF like Durant or James. Most likely if the other team is playing "small ball" they are playing an undersized SG at the 3 anyway (see, GSW lineup of Jack, Curry, Thompson, and Barnes last year). Come to think of it, looking at the chief rivals in the West I cant recall a team that plays essentially two SF's at the 3 & 4 at the same time (could be wrong). The Pacers in the East will have a chance with George and Granger this coming year I suppose.

What it does mean is that Leonard will have to play more minutes, but he was probably already going to do that including time at the stretch 4. The "vitality" of having another SF has more to do with Leonard getting injured than the Spurs being outmatched. So if they can't get someone by the time season starts, why not use the last spot to bring Bertans along? First 2 years of his deal will most likely be un/partially guaranteed anyway, so if he's terrible he can be waived. Then during the season depending on need a small trade involving Bonner's deal for a SF/PF tweener like Jeberko could be made.

[cd98]

^ Matchup-wise I don't know how "vital" it really is unless the Spurs are playing one of the few teams in the league that have a premier SF like Durant or James. Most likely if the other team is playing "small ball" they are playing an undersized SG at the 3 anyway (see, GSW lineup of Jack, Curry, Thompson, and Barnes last year). Come to think of it, looking at the chief rivals in the West I cant recall a team that plays essentially two SF's at the 3 & 4 at the same time (could be wrong). The Pacers in the East will have a chance with George and Granger this coming year I suppose.

What it does mean is that Leonard will have to play more minutes, but he was probably already going to do that including time at the stretch 4. The "vitality" of having another SF has more to do with Leonard getting injured than the Spurs being outmatched. So if they can't get someone by the time season starts, why not use the last spot to bring Bertans along? First 2 years of his deal will most likely be un/partially guaranteed anyway, so if he's terrible he can be waived. Then during the season depending on need a small trade involving Bonner's deal for a SF/PF tweener like Jeberko could be made.


Miami plays James at the 3 and Battier at the 4. That line up was probably the most effective against the Spurs. We didn't have a great answer for guarding Battier on the perimeter. Now Battier was pretty bad from the three point line, but he was effective the last two games of the series. Can Manu guard Battier? Sure, for a stretch, but that's extra size to deal with in a small ball matchup.

[CGD]

Miami plays James at the 3 and Battier at the 4. That line up was probably the most effective against the Spurs. We didn't have a great answer for guarding Battier on the perimeter. Now Battier was pretty bad from the three point line, but he was effective the last two games of the series. Can Manu guard Battier? Sure, for a stretch, but that's extra size to deal with in a small ball matchup.

Speed and quickness are not things I associate with Battier. Offensively, I'm not concerned about Battier being anything more than a spot up shooter at this point.

Sidebar, dude just got hot at the right time. He was having a horrible playoffs shooting from the field until the last few games, which of course is when he decided to show up...

[spurraider21]

The trade deadline would be the last opportunity to use Bonner's expiring contract as a bargaining chip. With Duncan, Splitter, Diaw, Baynes, Pendergraph, I think our big man rotation is fine. We went through the entire playoffs without a true backup SF and we did just fine imo. Stay the course and see how early Bertans would be available, then bring him over. He probably wouldn't be in the playoff rotation, but it would be good to get his feet wet before the start of next season.

[J_Paco]

Why hasn't anyone thought of a bargain bin type player (DeQuan Jones, Lance Thomas, Luke Babbitt, Cartier Martin [probably best available] or Terrence Williams) or a veteran with noticeable flaws in their game (Ronnie Brewer [my pick], Marquis Daniels or Mikael Gelabale)? They'll definitely need someone for when teams inevitably go small to take our best advantage (see '12 WCF vs. Oklahoma City and '13 Finals vs. Miami) away.


The trade deadline would be the last opportunity to use Bonner's expiring contract as a bargaining chip. With Duncan, Splitter, Diaw, Baynes, Pendergraph, I think our big man rotation is fine. We went through the entire playoffs without a true backup SF and we did just fine imo. Stay the course and see how early Bertans would be available, then bring him over. He probably wouldn't be in the playoff rotation, but it would be good to get his feet wet before the start of next season.

They shouldn't give up their last roster spot to an inexperienced player coming off a serious knee injury that wouldn't crack the rotation anyway. I don't know if you noticed but the Spurs lack of size, and to a certain extent athleticism, out on the perimeter was a huge contributing factor to the last two playoff exits. Spurs need to find someone that could contribute if another player goes down and is willing to take a bench role while learning the system. Some more youth and athleticism would be a huge bonus too.

[Budkin]

Isn't Pietrus still available. Very solid player imo

[J_Paco]

Isn't Pietrus still available. Very solid player imo

Pietrus was oft-injured last season in Toronto and his best days are behind him. If he still has some athleticism left, yes, if he's too broken down to aid against athletic teams (Miami, Oklahoma City and Golden State), then no. I'd like either Cartier Martin or Ronnie Brewer out of the available crop.

[timtonymanu]

Isn't Pietrus still available. Very solid player imo

Ehh... he's really declined a lot the last few seasons.

[ace3g]

Basketball (http://sulia.com/channel/basketball)
Chris Tomasson (http://sulia.com/christomasson/)
+ Trust Free agent Anthony Tolliver told me Lakers have entered mix as possible team for him & he visited Charlotte Monday
Tolliver said the Lakers recently called his agent, Larry Fox, to express interest. He said talks are still preliminary but he would have definite interest if the Lakers turn out to be a serious option.

“Obviously, to have a chance to play for a franchise like that, you’d have to think long and hard about that,’’ the forward told FOX Sports Florida.

While he waits to learn more about the Lakers' situation, other teams on Tolliver’s list are Charlotte, Utah and Chicago. Tolliver said the Bobcats have made a contract offer (for the minimum) and he visited Charlotte last Monday.

[Budkin]

Pietrus was oft-injured last season in Toronto and his best days are behind him. If he still has some athleticism left, yes, if he's too broken down to aid against athletic teams (Miami, Oklahoma City and Golden State), then no. I'd like either Cartier Martin or Ronnie Brewer out of the available crop.

Ooh Brewer would be nice.

[ace3g]

Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
(http://twitter.com/ShamsCharania)RealGM source: Free agent forward Lance Thomas is nearing a likely deal to return to the New Orleans Pelicans. bit.ly/14pwfLT (http://t.co/mJSfRV0YcI)

[Bruno]

If you forget Pekovic, the best FA left is Antawn Jamison. Unless Bonner expiring contract is used in a trade, he doesn't make a lot of sense for Spurs, but who knows, when you see them being linked with PGs.

[ElNono]

If you forget Pekovic, the best FA left is Antawn Jamison. Unless Bonner expiring contract is used in a trade, he doesn't make a lot of sense for Spurs, but who knows, when you see them being linked with PGs.

Ugh, pass

[Bruno]

Ugh, pass

Yep, it quite shows how empty the FA market is at that stage of the summer.

[ElNono]

Yep, it quite shows how empty the FA market is at that stage of the summer.

yeah, that's why I'm thinking the Spurs will wait until the winter... plus I expect a bunch of teams to outright tank and look to get expiring deals with the solid draft that's coming up... there's opportunity there to swap Bonner + DeColo/Mills for a piece...

[hsxvvd]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/229304/Larry-Sanders-Bucks-Close-To-Contract-Extension

Larry Sanders close to an extension worth $10 mil+ PER SEASON!!!

Insanity. Some team just aren't supposed to win I guess.

[tomtom]

Beasley Possibly on his way out? Thoughts?


Rumor: Suns likely to waive Michael Beasley after countless run-ins with the law. Working on this now.
https://twitter.com/BrettNBA/status/365068860015128577

[TMT®]

Beasley Possibly on his way out? Thoughts?


https://twitter.com/BrettNBA/status/365068860015128577

Spurs won't touch the guy with a 10 foot pole.

[Chinook]

:lol Milwaukee. Sanders is exactly the type of guy that you let play out his contract. He has a lot of potential on the defensive end, but he hasn't done enough to be worth eight figures a year. If he blows up and earns an Ibaka deal, you just smile and pay up.

[mountainballer]

the Ibaka deal set the bar for $ per block and it's only logical that the Sanders camp tries to cash in big time on this argument.
Bucks seem to be stupid enough to go that route.
good for whatever team will be able to get John Henson in 2016, when the small market Bucks will find out that they put their few eggs in the wrong basket and can't re sign him.
(and Henson will be the much better and more efficient player down the raod)

[Baam]

:lol Milwaukee. Sanders is exactly the type of guy that you let play out his contract. He has a lot of potential on the defensive end, but he hasn't done enough to be worth eight figures a year. If he blows up and earns an Ibaka deal, you just smile and pay up.

He was arguably the MIP so not sure how much more he could have done...

Besides he seems really comitted to Milwaukee and in their situation it's awesome to have a talented young player thinking he wants to be a Bucks for life.

[mountainballer]

He was arguably the MIP so not sure how much more he could have done...

looking at those players, who in fact and not just arguably won the MIP in the last years, most were handed a fat contract based on this improvement and I would estimate that 2/3 of them never lived up to this promise.
(Granger, Hedo, Ellis, Arenas, Diaw, Simmons, Jalen Rose....for whatever reason only Aaron Brooks wasn't able to turn his MIP award into a somehow decent contract).

anyway. Sanders will get a 40 million contract, he will still produce some nice block numbers in the 25 minutes till he fouls out and one more time a team will find out, that spectacularly blocking some shots doesn't automatically turn into wins.

[Baam]

looking at those players, who in fact and not just arguably won the MIP in the last years, most were handed a fat contract based on this improvement and I would estimate that 2/3 of them never lived up to this promise.
(Granger, Hedo, Ellis, Arenas, Diaw, Simmons, Jalen Rose....for whatever reason only Aaron Brooks wasn't able to turn his MIP award into a somehow decent contract).

anyway. Sanders will get a 40 million contract, he will still produce some nice block numbers in the 25 minutes till he fouls out and one more time a team will find out, that spectacularly blocking some shots doesn't automatically turn into wins.

He's also one of the most promising defensive anchor and had a good case for DPOY as well...

Everyone would take him on their team for that price tag let's be real...



Defensive Rating




1.
Tim Duncan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html)-SAS
95.0


2.
Roy Hibbert (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hibbero01.html)-IND
96.9


3.
Paul George (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/georgpa01.html)-IND
97.1


4.
Tony Allen (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html)-MEM
98.4


5.
Marc Gasol (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolma01.html)-MEM
98.5


6.
Larry Sanders (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sandela01.html)-MIL
98.5


7.
Joakim Noah (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/noahjo01.html)-CHI
98.6


8.
David West (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westda01.html)-IND
98.6


9.
Kevin Garnett (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html)-BOS
98.9


10.
Lamar Odom (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/odomla01.html)-LAC
99.0


11.
Emeka Okafor (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/okafoem01.html)-WAS
99.4


12.
Kawhi Leonard (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html)-SAS
99.4


13.
Zach Randolph (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/randoza01.html)-MEM
99.5


14.
Reggie Evans (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/evansre01.html)-BRK
99.6


15.
Tiago Splitter (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/splitti01.html)-SAS
100.0


16.
Dwight Howard (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html)-LAL
100.1


17.
Mike Conley (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/conlemi01.html)-MEM
100.2


18.
Kevin Durant (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html)-OKC
100.5


19.
Carlos Boozer (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boozeca01.html)-CHI
100.5


20.
Josh Smith (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjo03.html)-ATL
100.6

[Baam]

Averages a double double and 3 blocks to go with it, top 5 MIP and DPOY and only 24 years old but somehow paying him 1M more than Splitter is ridiculous :rolleyes.....................

[elemento]

I agree with Baam here

Even though I agree that defense is more than shot-blocking, I don't see how it's ridiculous to pay a 24 y/o Center 10m/year when he just had a 10/10/3 season, especially considering that Milwaukee is a small market team that doesn't attract anyone.

If the Bucks don't pay that, there will be 10 teams waiting in the line to give him that type of contract.

I mean, Spilitter has absolutely nothing special, he is 4 years older, had a 10/6/1 season and he still got a 9m/year contract. And again, if SA doesn't pay it, Portland would be waiting in the line to pay.

Nothing to be laughing about here tbh

[mountainballer]

He's also one of the most promising defensive anchor and had a good case for DPOY as well...

you are NOT a defensive anchor of a team as long as the team can't trust the anchor chain. Sanders still fouls that much, b/c he still hasn't learned some of the basics in defense. (PO he averaged 4.5 fouls per game)
he isn't the second coming of prime Big Ben, as long as he doesn't learn how to stay out of foul trouble.
and yes, Splitter is a much better overall player than Sanders.

[xmas1997]

I just don't understand the rationale of carrying 7 guards and only 1 small forward, maybe I don't know enough about basketball or something, but it just does not seem logical or advantageous, in fact, it sounds pretty stupid, just asking for trouble IMHO, this seems like one of the strangest off seasons that I can remember.
I just hope there is some sanity behind all this madness.

[ace3g]

Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine
(http://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine)RT @Nick_Calathes15 (http://twitter.com/Nick_Calathes15): Excited to start the new year w/Grizz Nation. Thanks everybody for the support. Thank you Loko as well for a great year

Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine
(http://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine)Hearing that Nick Calathes' deal with Memphis is a two-year pact at just under $2 million

[jyra]

365924336340705281

Don't see the need with Bonner on the roster.

[bklynspursfan]

I heard Stephen Jackson is meeting with the Heat... Waiting to find a source

Edit: found tweet

365823600592302080

[chrhawk]

I heard Stephen Jackson is meeting with the Heat... Waiting to find a source

Edit: found tweet

365823600592302080

Mike Miller replacement perhaps?

[Bruno]

365924336340705281

Don't see the need with Bonner on the roster.

It would be a weird signing if Spurs gave him the 15th roster spot. Their roster would have 7 guards, 7 bigmen and 1 SF...

[Strategic]

He needs to be spotted eating lunch with a local real estate agent, or crack ho, to be seriously considered for the 15th spot.

[Hoops Czar]

365924336340705281

Don't see the need with Bonner on the roster.

Phew! Close call. There's more than one team interested. Spurs have no chance

[therealtruth]

Speed and quickness are not things I associate with Battier. Offensively, I'm not concerned about Battier being anything more than a spot up shooter at this point.

Sidebar, dude just got hot at the right time. He was having a horrible playoffs shooting from the field until the last few games, which of course is when he decided to show up...

I knew we should have signed him two years ago.

[LakerHater]

365997887122976768 (https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaPS/status/365997887122976768)

[TheGreatYacht]

I heard Stephen Jackson is meeting with the Heat... Waiting to find a source

Edit: found tweet

365823600592302080:lol I hope Stephen Jackson signs w/the Heat, Thunder, Clippers, or Rockets so that he can rub it all on the Popsucker faces come playoff time.
365997887122976768 (https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaPS/status/365997887122976768)I hope the 15th roster spot goes to Deshaun Thomas or Antawn Jamison. Shit even better, it be nice if the Spurs can pick up Mo Williams or Al Harrington.

[HarlemHeat37]

Mo Williams is with the Blazers, my nigga, tbh..

Don't see the Spurs signing Harrington or Jamison with Sir Bonner on the roster, tbh..

Thomas is fine, 15th man is irrelevant, still a disappointing off-season, obviously, especially following Pop and Parker's horrendous performances in games 6 and 7, tbh..

Stephen Jackson joining a contender would be great news, tbh, he's one of the worst players in the league..

[xmas1997]

365997887122976768 (https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaPS/status/365997887122976768)

I say it will be No One.

[TheGreatYacht]

Mo Williams is with the Blazers, my nigga, tbh..

Don't see the Spurs signing Harrington or Jamison with Sir Bonner on the roster, tbh..

Thomas is fine, 15th man is irrelevant, still a disappointing off-season, obviously, especially following Pop and Parker's horrendous performances in games 6 and 7, tbh..

Stephen Jackson joining a contender would be great news, tbh, he's one of the worst players in the league..LOL... my bad, I forgot about Mo Williams. As you can see, I haven't been on the internet lately.

I agree about Stephen Jackson though, he is one of the worst players in the league for the REGULAR season. Don't sleep on him though cuz he can become lethal come playoff time. The man lives for the playoffs. Reminds me a lot of how shitty Horry was during the regular season only to turn it on come playoff time tbh.

[td4mvp2k]

:lol I hope Stephen Jackson signs w/the Heat, Thunder, Clippers, or Rockets so that he can rub it all on the Popsucker faces come playoff time.:troll

Shit even better, it be nice if the Spurs can pick up Mo Williams

LOL... my bad, I forgot about Mo Williams. As you can see, I haven't been on the internet lately. :donkey

[jyra]

366220165165223937

[spurs10]

366220165165223937Good for Tolliver. :toast

[Bruno]

Even if a lot of team were interested in Tolliver, Bobcats were the only team that reportedly made him an offer.



Spurs offered a training camp invite with maybe some guaranteed money to Notre Dame's Jack Cooley but he opted to go in Turkey:
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/229338/Jack-Cooley-Rejects-Partially-Guaranteed-Deals-For-Turkish-Team


Before signing with Turkey’s Trabzonspor, Memphis Grizzlies summer league forward Jack Cooley turned down training camp invites – including multiple partially guaranteed deals – from 10 NBA teams, his agent Adam Pensack told RealGM.

Cooley had received camp deals and some partially guaranteed offers out of the Portland Trail Blazers, Grizzlies, San Antonio Spurs, Oklahoma City Thunder, Brooklyn Nets, Miami Heat, Los Angeles Lakers, Houston Rockets, Indiana Pacers and Cleveland Cavaliers

[gambit1990]

how's bertans doing?

[LakerHater]

366647586536435714

[ace3g]

Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine
(http://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine)Hearing: Newly minted free agent Al Harrington is leaning toward signing with Wizards. More to come shortly

[Chinook]

^ :lol Joining a contender...

[bklynspursfan]

366793090054365184

[Budkin]

366793090054365184

Payback!

[Baam]

366793090054365184

They love to play small and he could defend Splitter pretty easily...

So Blair went to Dallas, Sjax may go to Houston... At least Neal didn't sign in the division...

[cd021]

Averages a double double and 3 blocks to go with it, top 5 MIP and DPOY and only 24 years old but somehow paying him 1M more than Splitter is ridiculous :rolleyes.....................

Splitter is a better team defender than Sanders' is. Splitter, is actually a much better player overall. The Spurs had the best defensive unit with Parker-Green-Leonard-Duncan-Splitter in the NBA.

Also Sanders fouls way too much. You can't be a great defensive player when you either block a shot or send someone to the free throw line. His career 5.0 PF per 36 minutes is pretty damn bad for a player who is supposed to be a defensive anchor. Splitters is 3.6 PFs per 36 for his career.

He'll get 4 years $40 million but its gonna take time for him to become more than a shot blocker. McGee is 26 and is more talented and still hasn't but it all together. He could easily turn into A DeAndre Jordan situation, stops improving and becomes overpayed for an above average skill (shot blocking).

Career Numbers

Splitter-18.7 P.E.R, 60.1 TFG% 117 Offensive Rating, 101 Defensive Rating

Sanders- Career:- 15.8 P.E.R, 49.4 TFG% 101 Offensive Rating, 98 Defensive Rating

[Baam]

He's already more than a shot blocker/Ibaka kinda of player, look at his defensive rating... It's better than Splitter who gets to play between Tim Duncan and Kawhi Leonard...

The kid is already an elite defensive anchor bar none.

The fact that you have to bring up career numbers because you can't make your point with last season's number is also telling... Only blind homers would take Splitter over Sanders, it's a bad joke to even argue about it.

[slick'81]

Lol splitter a better defender then sanders

[cd021]

Lol splitter a better defender then sanders

Really? Splitter is a better team defender than Sanders. Don't you find it a bit coincidental that we jumped from 11th to 4th in defensive rating once Splitter joined the starting lineup. The Spurs had by far the best defensive unit in the league when he was on the floor.

Duncan is 37 and outperformed Sanders at every possible turn on defense. Sanders is 13 years younger and more athletic than Duncan ever was.

He can't even stay on the floor long enough to be considered an anchor. His 4.3 PF per 36 minutes caused him to only log 27 minutes per game. Duncan averaged 2.7 bpg to 1.5 PF per game in 30 minutes for comparison.

[cd021]

He's already more than a shot blocker/Ibaka kinda of player, look at his defensive rating... It's better than Splitter who gets to play between Tim Duncan and Kawhi Leonard...

The kid is already an elite defensive anchor bar none.

The fact that you have to bring up career numbers because you can't make your point with last season's number is also telling... Only blind homers would take Splitter over Sanders, it's a bad joke to even argue about it.

"The kid" fouls like crazy he either blocks a shot or sends someone to the free throw line how exactly is that a defensive anchor? He is a high energy player, who is a natural shot blocker. He still has a ways to go before he can anchor a defense and consistently cover for his teammates mistakes like Duncan, Garnett, Chandler, Hibbert etc. If you think he is already on the same level as those players :lmao

I brought up career numbers because they've played the same amount of years in the NBA. I though that was obvious. Plus it gives a larger sample size making their numbers more accurate.


because you can't make your point with last season's number is also telling...

2 best defensive lineups for the Spurs this season...

Parker-Green, Leonard, Duncan, Diaw- Defensive Rating 94.1
Parker-Green-Leonard-Duncan-Splitter-Defensive Rating 87.7
Difference With Splitter -6.4 Defensive rating

The Splitter lineup was drastically better than the Diaw lineup

Postseason

2 best defensive lineups for the Spurs this postseason...
Parker-Green, Leonard, Duncan, Splitter- Defensive Rating 90.9
Parker-Green, Ginobili, Leonard, Duncan-Defensive Rating 107.1

Difference with Splitter-16.2 Defensive Rating

Its not like Ilyasova & Mbah a Moute, and are poor defenders either, granted Jennings and Ellis are poor.

Jennings-Ellis-Mbah a Moute-Ilyasova-Sanders- Defensive Rating 96.4

Parker-Green, Leonard, Duncan, Splitter- Defensive Rating 87.7

Difference - -8.7

Its also worth noting that the Spurs starting lineup allowed opponents to shoot only 40.8% FG, an extremely low number. That unit also allowed only 94 FTA in 363 minutes (every 4 minutes, 20 seconds)

The Jennings-Ellis-Mbah a Moute-Ilyasova-Sanders allowed 42.8 FG%, and allowed 137 FTA IN 388 minutes (every 3 minutes, 50 seconds on average) in terms of team defense Splitter was definitely better which was my original argument.

Blind homers?:lmao yeah, I'd still take Splitter. He is a better player, that can't really even be debated.

Sanders has a higher ceiling, but has a lot of work to do to get there. He is also playing for a bad organization (they've been pretty much a non factor for years and also the front office decision making leaves a lot to be desired) that he will likely resign with making his development even more of a question mark.

Splitter is a great fit for the Spurs, what advantages Sanders has over Splitter,defensively is miniscule compared to the bigger picture. If you want me to go off last season, I'd take a long look at the fact that Splitters True shooting FG% was 8% higher than Sanders.

Also Splitters defensive win shares for the 12-13 season was 3.5 to Sanders 3.7 not exactly head and shoulders above Tiago likely you suggested.:lol

[mountainballer]

Splitter is a better team defender than Sanders' is. Splitter, is actually a much better player overall. The Spurs had the best defensive unit with Parker-Green-Leonard-Duncan-Splitter in the NBA.

this sums it up and should be enough if your discussion partner did have a clue.

[Baam]

Ilyasova is actually proven to be a poor defender.

Also why do you say that he can't stay on the floor long enough when you're comparing him to a 20m player...

That's so dumb it's not even worth my time.

How hypocrite can yo be to bring up the differential in the PO when the only full series Splitter ever played in his life was against one of the worst offensive team there is.

And there no point talking about lineups when Milwaukee plays small with Ilyasova and Sanders still easily beats Splitter when it comes to defensive rating.

[Baam]

Lol T-Vag lovers :lol.

[Chinook]

It's pretty easy to make the argument that Splitter is a better defender than Sanders, or at least that it's a wash. As much as you keep repping Sanders' "superior" defensive rating, Splitter's was also elite (15th in the NBA last year compared to Sanders' sixth) and only 1.5 points lower. Both their aggregate defensive win-shares (3.5 for Splitter and 3.7 for Sanders) and their per-48 dWS (.084 for Splitter and .091 for Sanders) are close. Then you can factor in Splitter's effect on the Spurs' team defense and lower foul rate, and it starts muddle everything even more.

I know you aren't asserting that Sanders is an overall better player than Splitter (though you may well do that soon), but it's really no contest between the two of them. Splitter is one of the best offensive bigs in the league (in terms of ORtg) in addition to being one of the best defensive bigs by DRtg. If you are fine with Sanders getting $40M/4, then you should have been okay with Splitter getting a max contract.

[elemento]

Pure exaggeration

Sanders gets paid because of potential (he is still 24) and because of the market that he plays. If SA had a young player like Sanders (raw, shot-blocking machine with good defensive numbers), nobody in ST would have a problem with him getting a 4y/40m contract.

NOBODY

Splitter is indeed a good defender, but he is a system player and he is 4 years older. I don't think either player sets the bar for the other. Completely different situation and different type of Centers.

[Baam]

I'm completely saying that Sanders is a better player as well as much more valuable defensively.

Splitter is the third player on his team in term of defensive rating, there's no comparison, he's a good fit but that's about it. We're talking about a 20min player who plays between two guy that are better defender and have much superiors defensive ratings (at least Duncan)...

Sanders does it on his own and his defensive rating shit on Splitters... I don't see how this is close.

And if Splitter is a bit better offensively, Sanders is a much better rebounder...

[elemento]

366793090054365184

The day he left I said he would struggle to find a team even for the min. SA gave him his last fat paycheck.

Teams do not want a washed up knucklehead.

[Chinook]

I'm completely saying that Sanders is a better player as well as much more valuable defensively.

Splitter is the third player on his team in term of defensive rating, there's no comparison, he's a good fit but that's about it. We're talking about a 20min player who plays between two guy that are better defender and have much superiors defensive ratings (at least Duncan)...

Sanders does it on his own and his defensive rating shit on Splitters... I don't see how this is close.

And if Splitter is a bit better offensively, Sanders is a much better rebounder...

Defensive rating is an individual stat. While having good players on the floor with an individual can help the rating, it doesn't define it. It's like people who downplay Green's three-point percentage because he's on a team with Parker. Defensive win-shares is also an individual stat, although that is somewhat more affected by team success, as the more wins a team has, the more win-shares the team can theoretically pass around.

And it's sort of hypocritical of you to say that a 1.5-point difference in DRtg is some tremendous difference but that a nine-point difference in ORtg is just being "a bit better." That's also a bigger difference than the gap between their rebounding rates (18.6 to Sanders to 14.9 for Splitter). And unlike Sanders, Splitter often shared the court with a dominant defensive rebounder, and he was in a system that downplayed that did not make offensive rebounds a priority.

The stats say Splitter is a MUCH better player. It's cool to believe that Sanders will eventually be as good as Splitter is. But it's not even a contest yet.

And elemento (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=20945), it's not an exaggeration. Splitter was top-15 in both offensive and defensive rating last season. No other player did that. (Durant was top-20 in both, but that's it.) That's insane. Sanders has a ways to go before he's in Splitter's league, and it may not even happen in this contract. The fact that Splitter is four years older than Sanders is an explanation for the gulf between them, not an excuse to ignore it.

[Baam]

Stats say that they have equal PERs and that Sanders is much more valuable defensively actually...

[Baam]

And lol at having the audacity to say that Duncan basically prevents Splitter from having better stats when he's the whole reason for Splitter's success...

[Chinook]

Stats say that they have equal PERs and that Sanders is much more valuable defensively actually...

Once again, a 1.5 difference in defensive rating is not being "much more valuable." Splitter's WS/48 blew Sanders' out of the water, in addition to Splitter being FAR superior offensively.

Also, PER is a pretty empty stat that doesn't really correlate to how much a player helps his team win games. I'm not saying Sanders wasn't a productive player, or even a major plus (as I've said before, I actually do really like him), but it's a pretty easy stat to inflate on a bad team.

[Chinook]

And lol at having the audacity to say that Duncan basically prevents Splitter from having better stats when he's the whole reason for Splitter's success...

The more rebounds Duncan (and Leonard) get, the fewer Splitter gets. This doesn't mean that he's not a poor rebounder, but it definitely does explain some of the numbers.

Duncan and Splitter compliment each other. Because Splitter was on the floor next to Duncan, he was able to do what he does best, and vice-versa. Tim is an elite, post defender, rim-protector and rebounder. Tiago is an elite PnR defender and mobile-big defender. To pretend like Duncan is just propping Splitter up is absurd. Tim's long passed the days of being able to carry the team the way some fans are assuming he does.

As much as people don't want to admit it, the Medium Three help the Big Three almost as much as the Big Three help them. Both groups boost the stats and lessen the burden for the other.

[ace3g]

Emiliano Carchia @SportandoBasket
(http://twitter.com/SportandoBasket)Mens Sana Siena agreed to terms with Kim English sportando.net/eng/italy/seri… (http://t.co/DBoItFD9XO)

[ace3g]

Eric Pincus @EricPincus
(http://twitter.com/EricPincus)It appears Justin Holiday was about to have some guaranteed $ kicked in on his contract, so Philadelphia 76ers cut him loose before it did

[palangi]

Lol T-Vag lovers :lol.
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[Bruno]

It's crazy how Philly has nobody to play PG/SG/SF in their roster. They have 2 solid vets with Evan Turner and Jason Richardson, a rookie with Michael Carter-Williams and that's pretty much it. Right now their bench at PG/SG/SF would be James Anderson and Royce White.

If Spurs are still interested in Bobby Brown, they had to hurry up because he must be signed before August 15th before his Chinese contract kick in. A logical move would be Spurs signing him and trading Patrick Mills to Philly. That's assuming Spurs rate Bobby Brown over Mills.

[Hoops Czar]

If the Spurs had a choice between signing Bobby Brown or doing nothing, they should do nothing. He makes De Colo look like a decent player and that's really hard to do.

[Ocotillo]

It's crazy how Philly has nobody to play PG/SG/SF in their roster. They have 2 solid vets with Evan Turner and Jason Richardson, a rookie with Michael Carter-Williams and that's pretty much it. Right now their bench at PG/SG/SF would be James Anderson and Royce White.

If Spurs are still interested in Bobby Brown, they had to hurry up because he must be signed before August 15th before his Chinese contract kick in. A logical move would be Spurs signing him and trading Patrick Mills to Philly. That's assuming Spurs rate Bobby Brown over Mills.

You're on to something there. Brown was Patty's biggest fan and maybe we could get an asset of some sort by shipping him to Philly. I could care less about Bobby Brown but shipping Patty to Philly could open up a roster spot for that elusive SF backup.

[TD 21]

The Spurs already have an open roster spot for that "elusive SF backup" and Mills is younger and better than Brown ever was in the NBA. Mills to the 76ers makes only makes sense as a favor to him and (Brett) Brown . . . unfortunately, the Spurs are ignorant enough that this shouldn't be entirely ruled out.

As far as the 76ers lack of wing depth, given their roster, Young and Turner probably slide down to their natural SF and SG, respectively, which would make Richardson the sixth man and round out a three wing rotation. Add some random scrub to provide depth alongside Anderson and they're fine. At PG, Duhon probably lands with them to backup/mentor Carter-Williams. Again, add some random scrub to provide depth and they're fine.

[Chinook]

I actually think that Thad and Evan are where they're supposed to be. Young can't really play the three, and Evans' skills are best served as a two, which is supposedly part of the reason the Sixers moved Iggy. They need another guard who can shoot, since right now, their lineup really lacks that. Mills would fit in well there, and the Spurs could probably get an asset back, which is a good idea at this point.

[Bruno]

It's crazy how Philly has nobody to play PG/SG/SF in their roster. They have 2 solid vets with Evan Turner and Jason Richardson, a rookie with Michael Carter-Williams and that's pretty much it. Right now their bench at PG/SG/SF would be James Anderson and Royce White.

In fact, it's only one solid vet with Evan Turner since Richardson will be out for most of next season after a knee surgery.

[TD 21]

Whichever you think they're better at, the fact remains their natural positions are SF (blame Collins, who suggested Young do away with shooting threes, as opposed to continuing developing it, despite a reasonable amount of promise early in his career) and SG, respectively and the way they're currently constructed, there's no reason to think they won't go with that. Sure, spacing would be a serious issue amongst their starters, but remember, this is a team trying to be the worst in the league anyway.

No question Mills would be a nice fit, but they're trying to collect as many assets as they can, so I can't imagine they'd give up a real 2nd (meaning, not some top 55 protected pick 3-5 years down the line) for him. That being the case, the Spurs shouldn't do them any favors.

[Chinook]

How are their natural positions the positions they're worse at? Turner is 6-7, which is slightly above average for a small-forward. The Sixers tried to make him a two-guard, but he didn't cut it there. It's like trying to assert that Iguodala is a natural shooting-guard.

Young is a little undersized for a four, but his game is that of a big. According to the shooting splits, Young is damned-near incompetent outside of nine feet. He'd be one of the best rebounding threes in the game, but he doesn't really have much he can do besides that if he's left out on the perimeter. His rebounding is more than adequate for a power-forward, though. With the new trend to small-ball and the lack of tall fours outside of Splitter and Ibaka, Young is definitely more of a four than three in today's game.

[cd021]

Stats say that they have equal PERs and that Sanders is much more valuable defensively actually...

Stats also say Sanders is a mediocre offensive player. Splitter's career P.E.R is nearly 3 points higher than Sanders (they've had the same amount of NBA experience and both played primarily off the bench for the 1st two seasons. Before starting.

Splitter is clearly a better team defender. He fouls much less and the Spurs had the 3rd best 5 man rotation in the league and were 3rd in the NBA last season. We were 11th the season before with Splitter playing a more limited role on the bench.

The single stat that you produced (defensive rating) has Sanders at 98, but Splitters is at 101. It doesn't support you theory that he is a drastically better defender.

Also Duncan made $9.6 million last season, not $20 million. I have no idea where you got that from.

My point was, Duncan is an truly elite defender. His blocks to fouls rate was the best in the NBA and has been in the top 3 in defensive rating in each of the last 3 seasons. Calling Sanders elite puts him in the upper echelon of the NBA. He clearly isn't a Hibbert, Duncan, Garnett etc.

If you think he is right up there, with them then you're flat out crazy.:lol

"Chinook" and me have produced half a dozen advanced defensive numbers that you ignore. You said that Splitter looks better because he plays with Duncan and Leonard. I showed you the Spurs second best defensive unit (Parker, Green, Leonard, Duncan and Diaw) and then showed you the teams best unit (Parker, Green, Leonard, Duncan and Splitter) and it was clear Splitter was a major player in that Spurs success It was the Spurs best unit by -6.4 points per 100 possession.

Also The playoff line includes every minute in every series the Parker, Green, Leonard, Duncan and Splitter played together. That includes the Lakers, Warriors, Grizzlies, & Heat. Not just against Memphis:lol. It was by far our best defensive unit by more than 18 points per 100 possessions.

Splitters defensive win share was just .2 less than Sanders. Splitters offensive win share was more than double Sanders. Sanders also had a poor true shooting percentage 52% to Splitters 60%FG. Splitter is a better passer (obviously) as well.

Illaysova and Mbah a Moute aren't bad defenders and Sanders is supposed to erase mistakes (since he's some type of juggernaut in your book).


Instead Milwaukee's best defensive unit with Sanders was 6 points worse per 100 possessions than the Spurs top lineup (including Splitters).

3 seasons ago Dwight Howard anchored a lineup consisting of Nelson,Turkoglu, Anderson, & Bass and they had a defensive rating of just 94.4. Dwight ,himself had a rating of 94 and a defensive win share of 7.7. That is an elite defensive anchor, playing with 4 subpar defenders and still being capable of shutting teams down.

I was clearly right about Splitter being a better team defender. Your response is to call people who disagree with your opinion "T-Vag lovers" it shows you can't support your opinions with actually numbers to back it up. :lmao

[Baam]

You sure love your T-Vag, going on and on to defend his honor.

The mighty T-Vag played by far the most playoffs minutes against a scrubby Kobe-less Lakers team and even then he was the worse player of the series and the Memphis Grizzlies so yeah he faced shit offensive teams deal with it girl.

Sanders is the defensive anchor of his team while Splitter is only the third best defender (and I'm talking best case scenario because I don't really believe that), tells you everything you need to know about how big a part they play on defense and how valuable they are.

Stop being butthurt tbh, why don't you go ask some fans around the league who they'd take.

[UnWantedTheory]

You sure love your T-Vag, going on and on to defend his honor.

The mighty T-Vag played by far the most playoffs minutes against a scrubby Kobe-less Lakers team and even then he was the worse player of the series and the Memphis Grizzlies so yeah he faced shit offensive teams deal with it girl.

Sanders is the defensive anchor of his team while Splitter is only the third best defender (and I'm talking best case scenario because I don't really believe that), tells you everything you need to know about how big a part they play on defense and how valuable they are.

Stop being butthurt tbh, why don't you go ask some fans around the league who they'd take.

Most of us would prefer to stick with facts if you don't mind.

[ace3g]

Bobby Brown @BBROWNLAU
(http://twitter.com/BBROWNLAU)Taking my talents to Dongguan ���� Lets Goo!!! instagram.com/p/c_5lIoLWOC/ (http://t.co/Kp5QR45cT6)

[bklynspursfan]

The NBA on ESPN ‏@ESPNNBA (https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA)6m (https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/367711893370470400)
RT @ESPNSteinLine (https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine): This just in: I'm told Nikola Pekovic and Wolves have agreed to five-year deal worth $60 million

[Bruno]

Damn, that's a lot of money. I take Splitter at 36/4 over Pekovic at 60/5.

I'm also wondering if all that money spend this summer by Minny won't re-open the door on a Derrick Williams trade. To me, he was out of reach after his good second half of season but it might not be the case, especially if Adelman still likes more Cunningham.

[timtonymanu]

I''m sure Baam still thinks the Pek deal is better than Splitter's.

[RD2191]

I''m sure Baam still thinks the Pek deal is better than Splitter's.
:lmao

[TheGreatYacht]

367289745140756480

[TD 21]

How are their natural positions the positions they're worse at? Turner is 6-7, which is slightly above average for a small-forward. The Sixers tried to make him a two-guard, but he didn't cut it there. It's like trying to assert that Iguodala is a natural shooting-guard.

Young is a little undersized for a four, but his game is that of a big. According to the shooting splits, Young is damned-near incompetent outside of nine feet. He'd be one of the best rebounding threes in the game, but he doesn't really have much he can do besides that if he's left out on the perimeter. His rebounding is more than adequate for a power-forward, though. With the new trend to small-ball and the lack of tall fours outside of Splitter and Ibaka, Young is definitely more of a four than three in today's game.

You're not getting this. Obviously, in cases like these, whichever they're better at is subjective, but that's a different argument. What we're talking about isn't opinion, it's fact.

They didn't "try to make Turner an SG", because he always was. In fact, the only reason he and Young were moved up a position on a full time basis, was because of Bynum's injuries. Their initial plan was to start Hawes at PF. But without Bynum, they no longer had two starting caliber bigs and five of their top seven were wings, so they did what they had to do in order to get their best talent on the floor as much as possible.

:lol At Young's rebounding being "more than adequate for a PF". He was slightly worse than Bosh.

[cd021]

The NBA on ESPN ‏@ESPNNBA (https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA)6m (https://twitter.com/ESPNNBA/status/367711893370470400)
RT @ESPNSteinLine (https://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine): This just in: I'm told Nikola Pekovic and Wolves have agreed to five-year deal worth $60 million




So they give Love 4 years and use the 5 year deal on Pek? odd

[cd021]

I''m sure Baam still thinks the Pek deal is better than Splitter's.

That guy's an idiot. Got into it with him after he called Sanders a much better player than Splitter. I said Splitter was a much better team defender, a much better offensive player and that Sanders was only marginally better defensively in general last season. He goes crazy and ignores the dozen stats I produce and "Chinooks" and criticizes anyone who disagrees with his wrong opinion.

[Chinook]

You're not getting this. Obviously, in cases like these, whichever they're better at is subjective, but that's a different argument. What we're talking about isn't opinion, it's fact.

They didn't "try to make Turner an SG", because he always was. In fact, the only reason he and Young were moved up a position on a full time basis, was because of Bynum's injuries. Their initial plan was to start Hawes at PF. But without Bynum, they no longer had two starting caliber bigs and five of their top seven were wings, so they did what they had to do in order to get their best talent on the floor as much as possible.

:lol At Young's rebounding being "more than adequate for a PF". He was slightly worse than Bosh.

Once again, you're just saying, "Young is a small-forward, and Turner is a shooting-guard," off no basis. Young has played the four primarily for each of his five years in the league. He's been working extremely hard on trying to get the range to play the three, but as I said earlier, the results aren't there. There's nothing "natural" about him playing at SF. And yes, 7.4 rebounds per 36 is adequate for a power-forward. It's not elite, but it's definitely legitimate.

And seeing as Turner is the appropriate size and has the appropriate skills of a small-forward, I don't know why you keep thinking he's a natural two. There aren't any "facts" that support your beliefs. If we disagree, that's fine. But you have no ground to claim you're just saying facts.

[cd021]

You sure love your T-Vag, going on and on to defend his honor.

The mighty T-Vag played by far the most playoffs minutes against a scrubby Kobe-less Lakers team and even then he was the worse player of the series and the Memphis Grizzlies so yeah he faced shit offensive teams deal with it girl.

Sanders is the defensive anchor of his team while Splitter is only the third best defender (and I'm talking best case scenario because I don't really believe that), tells you everything you need to know about how big a part they play on defense and how valuable they are.

Stop being butthurt tbh, why don't you go ask some fans around the league who they'd take.

What a clown, Your case lies on defensive rating. I brought up a half dozen different advanced stats that proved my point that Splitter was a better team defender and you ignore it and called me a butthole. Anyone with any since would take Splitter over a still developing Sanders.

Splitter's deal is also a front loaded deal that makes it easier to trade him down the road for other assets if needed. We payed market value for Splitter.

the Dwight Howard example showed a true defensive anchor. Don't confuse Sanders as such, yet.

I do love "T-Vag" because he is a better player. So its Splitters fault Clippers, Nuggets went down because they couldn't play elite team defense to go a long with a top 10 offense.:lmao

The Spurs, Pacers, Heat and Grizzlies were all in the top 7 best defensive teams in the NBA. Its pretty common for elite defensive teams to make it deep in the playoffs. 6 of the 8 teams that made the semi finals. were in the top 8 in defensive rating.

Entering the 2012 postseason we were 11th in defense and lost in the WCF. With Splitter in '13 we came 1 minute away for another title in the finals with a 3rd ranked defense.

Splitter played 3 games against the Lakers. You're acting as he inflated his numbers by playing against the Lakers:lol. Once again the Playoff lineup includes every minute from all four series that the Parker-Green-Leonard-Duncan and Splitter played together. So you're just ignoring the fact that the Splitter lineup was 17 points per 100 possession better than the second best 5 man unit for the Spurs.

don't bother to respond. Its clear you don't know what you're talking about,even worse you think you do.

[Baam]

Lol at being one minute away from a championship thanks to Splitter when he didn't do shit in the Finals and couldn't stay on the floor...

Being one minute away had everything to do with the other players and proves that Splitter is expandable because he can't post smaller players to save his life.

Presti had more to do with our run than Splitter let's be real, the difference this year wasn't T-Vag, it was the Thunder being weaker (and even then the mighty Splitter couldnt help his team do as well as last year in the regular season since they finished behind a much weaker Thunder).

And Bruno said that the deal Splitter got has a significant trade kicker that doesn't make it that easy to trade him...

[Baam]

Regarding Pekovic, if you were to put him and T-Vag in a prison cell we know who'd make the other one his woman, now is that worth 3M a year? Probably not but it's not worth nothing either, especially in the POs.

The worse thing about that deal is that there's no team that could bid on him so I'm not sure why they gave him that much...

[TD 21]

Once again, you're just saying, "Young is a small-forward, and Turner is a shooting-guard," off no basis. Young has played the four primarily for each of his five years in the league. He's been working extremely hard on trying to get the range to play the three, but as I said earlier, the results aren't there. There's nothing "natural" about him playing at SF. And yes, 7.4 rebounds per 36 is adequate for a power-forward. It's not elite, but it's definitely legitimate.

And Turner seeing as Turner is the appropriate size and has the appropriate skills of a small-forward, I don't know why you keep thinking he's a natural two. There aren't any "facts" that support your beliefs. If we disagree, that's fine. But you have no ground to claim you're just saying facts.

:lol No basis. As if I made up them being drafted primarily as SF's and SG's, respectively and in neither case was it thought to be a question of if/when they gain enough strength, they'll move up a position.

Young has played a lot of PF in recent years, but it was out of necessity more than anything. There's plenty of examples of players around his size, who are either sub par or non three-point shooters, who are also natural SF's (Wallace, Kirilenko, Kidd-Gilchrist, Marion, Green, Aminu, Harris, Mbah a Moute, Singleton, McGuire, etc.). Classic case of a Spurs fan being brainwashed into thinking that, because it's something the Spurs would never do, that means no one else would. And his rebound rate is a paltry 12.3%.

Turner has guard like ball handling/passing skills. Virtually all of those types (Pierce, Jackson, McGrady, Miller, etc.), no matter their size, primarily play SG until their athleticism/quickness declines to the point that it's no longer feasible.

[Chinook]

:lol No basis. They were drafted primarily as SF's and SG's, respectively and in neither case was it thought to be a question of if/when they gain enough strength, they'll move up a position.

Young has played a lot of PF in recent years, but it was out of necessity more than anything. There's plenty of examples of players around his size, who are either sub par or non three-point shooters, who are also natural SF's (Wallace, Kirilenko, Kidd-Gilchrist, Marion, Green, Aminu, Harris, Mbah a Moute, Singleton, McGuire, etc.). Classic case of a Spurs fan being brainwashed into thinking that, because it's something the Spurs would never do, that means no one else would. And his rebound rate is a paltry 12.3%.

Turner has guard like ball handling/passing skills. Virtually all of those types (Pierce, Jackson, McGrady, Miller, etc.), no matter their size, primarily play SG until their athleticism/quickness declines to the point that it's no longer feasible.

Yeah, still no basis. For Young, you're pretty much saying, "I know he's been a power-forward his whole career, but they intended to make him a small-forward, honest." I like how your list comprises a combination of fringe players, players who were threes in the old era and are now more fours (or who have learned to shoot a little better over the years) and Mbah a Moute, who like Young has been a four much more than a three his entire career. Just because some teams put natural, but undersized, fours at small-forward doesn't mean that it's the proper order.

For Turner, you're using the opposite argument (skills being more important than size). As if the term point-forward doesn't already exist to describe threes who can run an offense. Then your list of players to support your argument is flawed, as Jack and Pierce have been threes for the majority of their careers, and Miller and McGrady were threes for about half their careers, with there being no rhyme or reason to when they played at SG or SF. You just made that up.

Again, there's nothing wrong with you having a different opinion, but don't go around trying to say you have some factual high ground on this matter. You don't. In the end, the difference between the two and three is pretty much gone in today's NBA, and the distinction between the three and the four seems to be on its way out as well. Sizing up is the wrong way to go in today's NBA, I feel. There's no way Philadelphia should look at moving Turner and Young down a position as anything more than a stop gap, and one that is going to cost them games.

[TD 21]

Yeah, still no basis. For Young, you're pretty much saying, "I know he's been a power-forward his whole career, but they intended to make him a small-forward, honest." I like how your list comprises a combination of fringe players, players who were threes in the old era and are now more fours (or who have learned to shoot a little better over the years) and Mbah a Moute, who like Young has been a four much more than a three his entire career. Just because some teams put natural, but undersized, fours at small-forward doesn't mean that it's the proper order.

For Turner, you're using the opposite argument (skills being more important than size). As if the term point-forward doesn't already exist to describe threes who can run an offense. Then your list of players to support your argument is flawed, as Jack and Pierce have been threes for the majority of their careers, and Miller and McGrady were threes for about half their careers, with there being no rhyme or reason to when they played at SG or SF. You just made that up.

Again, there's nothing wrong with you having a different opinion, but don't go around trying to say you have some factual high ground on this matter. You don't. In the end, the difference between the two and three is pretty much gone in today's NBA, and the distinction between the three and the four seems to be on its way out as well. Sizing up is the wrong way to go in today's NBA, I feel. There's no way Philadelphia should look at moving Turner and Young down a position as anything more than a stop gap, and one that is going to cost them games.

:lol I guess something only qualifies as a basis if it comes from your god, Bruno.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Thaddeus-Young-450/

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/thaddeus-young

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Evan-Turner-1115/

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/evan-turner


:lol Blatantly making things up. Not a single one doesn't primarily play SF still and the vast majority aren't fringe players (not that it would be relevant if they were). Mbah a Moute has toggled back and forth, depending on the construction of the Bucks roster each season, but he was drafted as SF first and he'll primarily play SF next season.

I'm not using any argument (again, you're apparently incapable of deciphering between things that are subjective and things that are fact), I'm just saying, generally speaking, that type of player primarily plays SG early in their career and in the cases of the four I listed, all did. Only Pierce shifted full time to SF while he was still relatively young and that was because they acquired Allen. It's clear to me you've either become a fan in recent years or didn't follow the league much outside of the Spurs until then.

Obviously, the game is more about match-ups than outdated positional designations in a lot of cases now, but again, that's a different argument, as is whether the 76ers would be better off with them at their natural positions or the positions they primarily played last season.

[benefactor]

These past couple of pages have been a real dumbass fest.

[RD2191]

:music

[Chinook]

:lol I guess something only qualifies as a basis if it comes from your god, Bruno.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Thaddeus-Young-450/

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/thaddeus-young

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Evan-Turner-1115/

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/evan-turner


:lol Blatantly making things up. Not a single one doesn't primarily play SF still and the vast majority aren't fringe players (not that it would be relevant if they were). Mbah a Moute has toggled back and forth, depending on the construction of the Bucks roster each season, but he was drafted as SF first and he'll primarily play SF next season.

I'm not using any argument (again, you're apparently incapable of deciphering between things that are subjective and things that are fact), I'm just saying, generally speaking, that type of player primarily plays SG early in their career and in the cases of the four I listed, all did. Only Pierce shifted full time to SF while he was still relatively young and that was because they acquired Allen. It's clear to me you've either become a fan in recent years or didn't follow the league much outside of the Spurs until then.

Obviously, the game is more about match-ups than outdated positional designations in a lot of cases now, but again, that's a different argument, as is whether the 76ers would be better off with them at their natural positions or the positions they primarily played last season.

This is getting ludicrous. All four of Jack, Miller, Pierce and McGrady started off as small-forwards a played there at least the first two years. Each one, with no exceptions. And each one returned to playing the three after playing the two for a few years. McGrady split time between the positions in his prime, and Miller played the two for a few years, but the other two have been almost exclusively threes their entire careers. You. Just. Made. It. Up. And now, you keep trying to push the same bad (or at least highly subjective) reasoning.

I perhaps should have used the term "fringe rotation players," to describe Aminu, Singleton and McGuire, but I don't apologize for discounting them. One could easily make the argument that they are playing as poorly as they are because they are being forced to play at small-forward too much. Kirilenko and Marion have been threes most of their careers because at the time they first started player, they could get away with it. Hell, a player like Jan Vesely could have gotten away with it back then, and he's a five in today's NBA. Marion only gets propped up by Dirk stretching the floor for him (and being an improved shooter in his own right), and Kirilenko played the four a lot last year, partially out of necessity, and partially due to the fact that his skills are best served in a big-man role.

Mbah a Moute has been a four his whole career. The only time he's played the three more, he was paired with Ilyasova (and even that was an odd change, since he played with Ilyasova before that, and Ersan was listed at the three), and he defended fours (and even fives) while the other defended threes, provided the Bucks weren't playing a team with a strong small-forward. And since Ilyasova can shoot well, the Bucks were able to play Luc at "SF" offensively. And to top it all off, Mbah a Moute was absolutely horrible at the three last year, posting his worst ORtg and DRtg.

Let's clarify something here: Saying, "These players are supposed to play this position," is subjective. Saying, "These players usually play this other position, and they don't perform as well when they aren't," is objective. Maybe you have your definitions backward? Your entire argument is based off your opinion with relatively poor support. My argument is based off the players' actually histories, their stats and their measurables. There's no question whose position should be considered stronger. If you want to believe what you believe, go on ahead. But you're really making yourself seem silly by continuing to take such as baselessly condescending tone.

[benefactor]

TD21...:lol

No one plays the "I'm trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about but in reality I'm dumb as a box of Sharpie markers" role better than he does. Baam is his disciple but won't make it to much further than a poor man's version of him.

[TD 21]

This is getting ludicrous. All four of Jack, Miller, Pierce and McGrady started off as small-forwards a played there at least the first two years. Each one, with no exceptions. And each one returned to playing the three after playing the two for a few years. McGrady split time between the positions in his prime, and Miller played the two for a few years, but the other two have been almost exclusively threes their entire careers. You. Just. Made. It. Up. And now, you keep trying to push the same bad (or at least highly subjective) reasoning.

I perhaps should have used the term "fringe rotation players," to describe Aminu, Singleton and McGuire, but I don't apologize for discounting them. One could easily make the argument that they are playing as poorly as they are because they are being forced to play at small-forward too much. Kirilenko and Marion have been threes most of their careers because at the time they first started player, they could get away with it. Hell, a player like Jan Vesely could have gotten away with it back then, and he's a five in today's NBA. Marion only gets propped up by Dirk stretching the floor for him (and being an improved shooter in his own right), and Kirilenko played the four a lot last year, partially out of necessity, and partially due to the fact that his skills are best served in a big-man role.

Mbah a Moute has been a four his whole career. The only time he's played the three more, he was paired with Ilyasova (and even that was an odd change, since he played with Ilyasova before that, and Ersan was listed at the three), and he defended fours (and even fives) while the other defended threes, provided the Bucks weren't playing a team with a strong small-forward. And since Ilyasova can shoot well, the Bucks were able to play Luc at "SF" offensively. And to top it all off, Mbah a Moute was absolutely horrible at the three last year, posting his worst ORtg and DRtg.

Let's clarify something here: Saying, "These players are supposed to play this position," is subjective. Saying, "These players usually play this other position, and they don't perform as well when they aren't," is objective. Maybe you have your definitions backward? Your entire argument is based off your opinion with relatively poor support. My argument is based off the players' actually histories, their stats and their measurables. There's no question whose position should be considered stronger. If you want to believe what you believe, go on ahead. But you're really making yourself seem silly by continuing to take such as baselessly condescending tone.

They did, only to move to SG for the majority of the remainder of their youth. I have a good idea of what you're using for reference and it's wrong.

Aminu is not a fringe rotation player. He was on and off a starter last season and is the likely starter next season. Again, whether the relative struggles of he and the other two you mentioned are in part due to playing SF, that could be true (again, that's subjective), but it's also a different argument. My point was that they primarily play SF, despite their lack of three-point shooting, which is why you can't disqualify Young.

Mbah a Moute has toggled back and forth, depending on the construction of their roster in a particular season. By your logic, because a player primarily plays a certain position for the majority of their career, it automatically means it's their natural position . . . so that means Duncan is a natural PF, because he primarily played it from '97-'06.

I'm not saying supposed to, all I'm saying is, it is their natural position. My entire argument is based off of fact, not opinion. I'm not sure why you continue to fail to see the difference.

[anakha]

These past couple of pages have been a real dumbass fest.

[Chinook]

They did, only to move to SG for the majority of the remainder of their youth. I have a good idea of what you're using for reference and it's wrong.

Aminu is not a fringe rotation player. He was on and off a starter last season and is the likely starter next season. Again, whether the relative struggles of he and the other two you mentioned are in part due to playing SF, that could be true (again, that's subjective), but it's also a different argument. My point was that they primarily play SF, despite their lack of three-point shooting, which is why you can't disqualify Young.

Mbah a Moute has toggled back and forth, depending on the construction of their roster in a particular season. By your logic, because a player primarily plays a certain position for the majority of their career, it automatically means it's their natural position . . . so that means Duncan is a natural PF, because he primarily played it from '97-'06.

I'm not saying supposed to, all I'm saying is, it is their natural position. My entire argument is based off of fact, not opinion. I'm not sure why you continue to fail to see the difference.

Man... perhaps if you could explain the difference between something being a "natural position" and something being their best position, the position they're "supposed to play" or the position they usually play, I could understand where you're coming from, and we could chalk all this up to a semantic disagreement. But right now, you're literally disputing numbers with nothing but your opinion of where they "naturally" play. That has absolutely nothing to do with facts, which you've failed to list. (Someone's -- even if that person is a highly touted scout -- opinion of where the player was projected to play coming out of school is not a fact.) Claiming that it doesn't matter that most of the players who can't shoot but play the three suck at, or at least rely on stretch-fours, it is also not support.

If Young wants to have a career like Aminu's, sure, I guess I can play the three. But if he wants to be a good player, he's best served to stay as an undersized four. Turner might have the passing of a guard, but the rest of his abilities make him a forward. He'd be better served with a player like Eric Gordon (meaning a shorter two-guard) than he would with a player like Ariza (a tall small-forward) next to him. Even when Iggy was there, Turner played his best when he was able to be the small-forward. Every one of his stats got better. If Philly wants Bust Turner back, they'll put him at two-guard again.

[Strategic]

These past couple of pages have been a real dumbass fest.You said it!!!

[TD 21]

Man... perhaps if you could explain the difference between something being a "natural position" and something being their best position, the position they're "supposed to play" or the position they usually play, I could understand where you're coming from, and we could chalk all this up to a semantic disagreement. But right now, you're literally disputing numbers with nothing but your opinion of where they "naturally" play. That has absolutely nothing to do with facts, which you've failed to list. (Someone's -- if that person is a highly touted scout -- opinion of where the player was projected to play coming out of school is not a fact.) Claiming that it doesn't matter that most of the players who can't shoot but play the three suck at, or at least rely on stretch-fours, it is also not support.

If Young wants to have a career like Aminu's, sure, I guess I can play the three. But if he wants to be a good player, he's best served to stay as an undersized four. Turner might have the passing of a guard, but the rest of his abilities make him a forward. He'd be better served with a player like Eric Gordon (meaning a shorter two-guard) than he would with a player like Ariza (a tall small-forward) next to him. Even when Iggy was there, Turner played his best when he was able to be the small-forward. Every one of his stats got better. If Philly wants Bust Turner back, they'll put him at two-guard again.

I gave you four links from the two most credible draft sites, I gave you reasons for why they played up a position last season and I gave you examples of similar players who played their natural positions . . . what more do you want?

You still can't seem to comprehend the difference between subjective and fact. Everything you've said has been subjective and despite my not agreeing or disagreeing with any of those views, you've somehow decided that I'm opposed to them and have this outdated vision of the way the game is played today.

[Chinook]

I gave you four links from the two most credible draft sites, I gave you reasons for why they played up a position last season and I gave you examples of similar players who played their natural positions . . . what more do you want?

You still can't seem to comprehend the difference between subjective and fact. Everything you've said has been subjective and despite my not agreeing or disagreeing with any of those views, you've somehow decided that I'm opposed to them and have this outdated vision of the way the game is played today.

So you don't understand the difference between fact and opinion...

Posting someone's opinion is not a fact, even if the person who gives the opinion is "credible." It doesn't matter if scouts thought they would play best at one position. Their time in the NBA didn't bear that out. Young played at the three almost none of the time over recent seasons, even when the Sixers had all their players. When he did play there early in his career, he wasn't bad offensively, but he was pretty bad defensively (giving up a PER of 19.7). Turner has been bad, bust-worthy at the two his whole career. He's been competent at the three. If the scouts didn't predict that, then that's their faults.

The facts are that they have the size to play their positions, the minutes logged (over their careers, not just last season) there to show the coaching staff agrees and the improved stats to show they perform best there. That is an objective argument.

You're whole view on "natural positions", which you've yet to clarify, leaves you open to accusations of having an antiquated view on the NBA and what the positional prototypes are. You're not being non-committal to my arguments; you're directly ignoring them by saying, "I know that they're supposed to play there, and that's that." Clarify what you mean, and perhaps I could understand why you think there are any facts that support you.

[TD 21]

So you don't understand the difference between fact and opinion...

Posting someone's opinion is not a fact, even if the person who gives the opinion is "credible." It doesn't matter if scouts thought they would play best at one position. Their time in the NBA didn't bear that out. Young played at the three almost none of the time over recent seasons, even when the Sixers had all their players. When he did play there early in his career, he wasn't bad offensively, but he was pretty bad defensively (giving up a PER of 19.7). Turner has been bad, bust-worthy at the two his whole career. He's been competent at the three. If the scouts didn't predict that, then that's their faults.

The facts are that they have the size to play their positions, the minutes logged (over their careers, not just last season) there to show the coaching staff agrees and the improved stats to show they perform best there. That is an objective argument.

You're whole view on "natural positions", which you've yet to clarify, leaves you open to accusations of having an antiquated view on the NBA and what the positional prototypes are. You're not being non-committal to my arguments; you're directly ignoring them by saying, "I know that they're supposed to play there, and that's that." Clarify what you mean, and perhaps I could understand why you think there are any facts that support you.

It's not just them, but how many links am I supposed to come up with? And what's the point, when I know you'll just shoot them all down anyway and pass them off as being "someone's opinion"?

The bottom line is, it's indisputable that they were drafted at those positions and so far to date, they've only not played them so that they could get their best talent on the floor. Long term, who knows how Henkie/Brown view them or if they'll even be kept? All I said from the beginning of this was that, as currently constituted, it's a virtual lock they'll be sliding down a position, so they won't be as thin on the wings as Bruno thinks. Of course, that was before either of us realized Richardson would miss most of next season (I had thought he'd just miss the start).

I've already clarified it and I'm not bothering doing so again. Your whole reasoning for why Young "can't play the three" is complete and utter nonsense, as I proved with the list of similar players who do in fact play it, as is this notion that "because he's played more minutes at PF, that automatically means he's a natural PF", which I proved with the Duncan example.

[MaNu4Tres]

:corn:

[Chinook]

It's not just them, but how many links am I supposed to come up with? And what's the point, when I know you'll just shoot them all down anyway and pass them off as being "someone's opinion"?

The bottom line is, it's indisputable that they were drafted at those positions and so far to date, they've only not played them so that they could get their best talent on the floor. Long term, who knows how Henkie/Brown view them or if they'll even be kept? All I said from the beginning of this was that, as currently constituted, it's a virtual lock they'll be sliding down a position, so they won't be as thin on the wings as Bruno thinks. Of course, that was before either of us realized Richardson would miss most of next season (I had thought he'd just miss the start).

I've already clarified it and I'm not bothering doing so again. Your whole reasoning for why Young "can't play the three" is complete and utter nonsense, as I proved with the list of similar players who do in fact play it, as is this notion that "because he's played more minutes at PF, that automatically means he's a natural PF", which I proved with the Duncan example.

You haven't clarified anything. You've provided no facts. You've simply stated your opinion and posted opinions that agree with you. And you brought up a list of players that doesn't help your argument, because the players either performed too poorly to be considered good examples or did not have the histories that you think they did. Even Aminu saw much better stats when he played solid minutes the four, going from end-of-bench quality to just below average. McGuire was just plain awful no matter where he played last season.

And let's stay clear on this: You're not saying Young CAN move to the three. You're saying that the three is his natural position (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean). I am saying he's a much better four than he is a three, and all the numbers support that. You've been saying that he's a natural three ... well ... just because, I guess. Or because some scouts incorrectly predicted he'd be good there. In fact, he hasn't been, to the point that the last three years, he's played at SF for less than one percent of his time on the floor. This is not a recent shift that just started last season -- the big shift in his career was moving from being a bench big to being a starting big. Whether Young will play the three next season is arbitrary, since any player can be put in any position at any time. We were talking about where he fits best (where his "natural position" is by any logical denotation). Don't try to move the goal posts on me.

I would not be surprised if you didn't intend to take a hard view on this. I didn't take one, either, until you decided to start a debate about it.

[TD 21]

It's just common knowledge, just like it is that Anthony was drafted primarily as an SF. The fact that he primarily plays PF now doesn't make him a natural PF. You don't need links for that.

The list of players seal my argument, because they have the same issue Young has, which is the reason you think he can't play SF and yet . . . they play SF! How good the list of players are has nothing to do with anything, they were merely examples of limited to non three-point shooters who play SF.

I'm saying Young can play either, just that he's a natural SF and will likely be playing it again next season. That's it. I never argued where he'd fit best, nor do I need to, because apparently I've got you to formulate my opinion for me.

[Chinook]

It's just common knowledge, just like it is that Anthony was drafted primarily as an SF. The fact that he primarily plays PF now doesn't make him a natural PF. You don't need links for that.

The list of players seal my argument, because they have the same issue Young has, which is the reason you think he can't play SF and yet . . . they play SF! How good the list of players are has nothing to do with anything, they were merely examples of limited to non three-point shooters who play SF.

I'm saying Young can play either, just that he's a natural SF and will likely be playing it again next season. That's it. I never argued where he'd fit best, nor do I need to, because apparently I've got you to formulate my opinion for me.

:lol "Thad sucks at the three statistically, but he's supposed to play there."

:lol "These mediocre to bad players who play the three (when they are better statistically at the four) seal the deal for me."

:lol "Some of the best defenders (who were elite in other skills besides shooting) in the league played the three back in the day when small-forwards didn't need to have good perimeter skills, so Thad can do it in today's NBA."

:lol "Thad has played the four 90 percent of the time during the last several seasons, but he's a combo-forward."

:lol "Scouts said Thad was a three, so even though they've been proven wrong by his career, he's still a natural there."

Did I miss anything?

[RD2191]

:wakeup

[TD 21]

:lol "Thad sucks at the three statistically, but he's supposed to play there."

:lol "These mediocre to bad players who play the three (when they are better statistically at the four) seal the deal for me."

:lol "Some of the best defenders (who were elite in other skills besides shooting) in the league played the three back in the day when small-forwards didn't need to have good perimeter skills, so Thad can do it in today's NBA."

:lol "Thad has played the four 90 percent of the time during the last several seasons, but he's a combo-forward."

:lol "Scouts said Thad was a three, so even though they've been proven wrong by his career, he's still a natural there."

Did I miss anything?

:lol Making up quotes

:lol Zero reading comprehension whatsoever

[Chinook]

:lol Making up quotes

:lol Zero reading comprehension whatsoever

Sounds like a 'no' to me. You're the one who thinks opinions are facts.

[UnWantedTheory]

It's just common knowledge, just like it is that Anthony was drafted primarily as an SF. The fact that he primarily plays PF now doesn't make him a natural PF. You don't need links for that.

The list of players seal my argument, because they have the same issue Young has, which is the reason you think he can't play SF and yet . . . they play SF! How good the list of players are has nothing to do with anything, they were merely examples of limited to non three-point shooters who play SF.

I'm saying Young can play either, just that he's a natural SF and will likely be playing it again next season. That's it. I never argued where he'd fit best, nor do I need to, because apparently I've got you to formulate my opinion for me.

No offense broski, but bringing up "natural positions" would lead one to believe they are best served playing there. Naturally.

[Redshadows]

I'm also wondering if all that money spend this summer by Minny won't re-open the door on a Derrick Williams trade. To me, he was out of reach after his good second half of season but it might not be the case, especially if Adelman still likes more Cunningham.
I think the Wolves would keep Derrick Williams till the 2015 summer when Kevin Love might leave them.

[Chinook]

I think the Wolves would keep Derrick Williams till the 2015 summer when Kevin Love might leave them.

The thing is, he's not cheap. He's set to make almost $6 Million next season. Also, his contract expires next July, so they Wolves would have to re-sign him in order to have him in 2015.

EDIT: I don't know what I was thinking. Williams' deal expires in 2015 (two Julys from now). But they'd still have to re-sign him and more importantly guarantee his 2014-2015 salary in October. Williams is an expensive insurance policy, especially with Love and Pek making bank.

[therealtruth]

So you're just ignoring the fact that the Splitter lineup was 17 points per 100 possession better than the second best 5 man unit for the Spurs.


I think we actually let the Heat of the hook when we benched Splitter to match up with them. They couldn't score against our starting lineup. That's why they started Mike Miller.

[therealtruth]

It's not just them, but how many links am I supposed to come up with? And what's the point, when I know you'll just shoot them all down anyway and pass them off as being "someone's opinion"?

The bottom line is, it's indisputable that they were drafted at those positions and so far to date, they've only not played them so that they could get their best talent on the floor. Long term, who knows how Henkie/Brown view them or if they'll even be kept? All I said from the beginning of this was that, as currently constituted, it's a virtual lock they'll be sliding down a position, so they won't be as thin on the wings as Bruno thinks. Of course, that was before either of us realized Richardson would miss most of next season (I had thought he'd just miss the start).

I've already clarified it and I'm not bothering doing so again. Your whole reasoning for why Young "can't play the three" is complete and utter nonsense, as I proved with the list of similar players who do in fact play it, as is this notion that "because he's played more minutes at PF, that automatically means he's a natural PF", which I proved with the Duncan example.

I agree the only reason they've played Young at the 4 is to get their best talent on the floor. It's a secondary point that he's thrived as a small ball 4. Look at Carmello. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a 4 even though he has better stats there.

[Obiwonginobili]

f'n stfu and move this to another thread. this is 2013 General Free Agent Signings/News and Trades (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218795&page=131) thread not the Thadeus Young is a 3 or 4 thread. swear its morons like these guys that ruin forums in general.

[ace3g]

Ronald Tillery ‏@CAGrizBlog (https://twitter.com/CAGrizBlog) Source: Griz working on small trade to get Celtics center Fab Melo for Donte Greene. CA story coming...

[UnWantedTheory]

f'n stfu and move this to another thread. this is 2013 General Free Agent Signings/News and Trades (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218795&page=131) thread not the Thadeus Young is a 3 or 4 thread. swear its morons like these guys that ruin forums in general.

What about the morons who feel it necessary to comment on such things?

[Bruno]

Ronald Tillery ‏@CAGrizBlog (https://twitter.com/CAGrizBlog) Source: Griz working on small trade to get Celtics center Fab Melo for Donte Greene. CA story coming...

Celtics are just above the luxury tax threshold. Trading Melo for Green unguaranted contract would allow them to go just under and save a lot of money.

[Bruno]

Donte Greene might be an option for Spurs. Spurs were reportedly interested in him earlier this year. Celtics will for sure waive him to go under the tax but the question is if they will do it now or at the end of the training camp.

[TD 21]

No offense broski, but bringing up "natural positions" would lead one to believe they are best served playing there. Naturally.

Not necessarily. The game has evolved a lot since he's been drafted, plus he's gotten a lot stronger. Ideally, I think he's best defensively as an SF and offensively as a PF, which works best if he's paired with a stretch four (think Mbah a Moute and Ilyasova). Short of that, it's a risk/reward type thing, dependent on the personnel you have around him and the personnel on the opposition.

[xmas1997]

Donte Greene might be an option for Spurs. Spurs were reportedly interested in him earlier this year. Celtics will for sure waive him to go under the tax but the question is if they will do it now or at the end of the training camp.

I would love having Donte Green on the Spurs backing up Kawhi.

[elemento]

At this point I think SA might be ok going to the season with only Kawhi as a natural SF. I think the 2nd unit goes with Cory/Beli/Manu.

[TD 21]

Free agent swingman Mickael Pietrus has a workout scheduled with an undisclosed NBA team in September with two other NBA teams showing interest in working the French forward out, (http://www.csnnw.com/nba/agent-pietrus-has-nba-workout-scheduled-september) his agent Bill McCandless told CSNNW.com. CSNNW.com (http://www.csnnw.com/nba/agent-pietrus-has-nba-workout-scheduled-september)


Last season, it was reported that the Spurs showed interest before they signed Anderson, but he held out for a guaranteed deal.

He's supposedly fully healthy for the first time in a couple of years and has looked good in pickup games. I'm still skeptical he has much, if anything, left and he's low IQ and doesn't have close to ideal size (though in his prime, I never found that to hinder him against James, but that was before James punished smaller wings in the post), yet he's still the best combination of athleticism, three-point shooting, defense and experience, available.

[Baam]

Pretty sure Parker and Pietrus are not on good terms.

[Bruno]

Given what remains at SF, the best solution for Spurs would be to sign 2 or 3 SF to partially guaranteed contract and let them fight in training camp to keep the best of them. I don't see a player good enough to warrant a guaranteed contract.

[ace3g]

Marc J. Spears @SpearsNBAYahoo
(http://twitter.com/SpearsNBAYahoo)Clippers coach Doc Rivers patiently waiting to sign Lamar Odom after getting rave reviews about how great a teammate he is, source tells Y!

Marc J. Spears @SpearsNBAYahoo
(http://twitter.com/SpearsNBAYahoo)One of the rave reviews about Lamar Odom given to Doc Rivers came from former Clippers coach Vinny Del Negro.



Marc J. Spears @SpearsNBAYahoo
(http://twitter.com/SpearsNBAYahoo)Free agent F Antawn Jamison was led to believe he was signing with LAC before being told today they preferred Lamar Odom, Y! source said.

[ace3g]

Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA
(http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA)Y! Sources: Milwaukee nearing completion of a 4-year, $44 million-plus extension with center Larry Sanders. yhoo.it/1ac5bUm (http://t.co/8LQqDeOUMQ)

[benefactor]

lmao

[mountainballer]

oh. it's 44 not 40. but at least one guy will tell to us that this still is a steal, compared to the 36 Tiago got.

[Chinook]

Surprised they didn't give him five years.

[Hoops Czar]

oh. it's 44 not 40. but at least one guy will tell to us that this still is a steal, compared to the 36 Tiago got.

Neither are a steal.

[Baam]

oh. it's 44 not 40. but at least one guy will tell to us that this still is a steal, compared to the 36 Tiago got.

It's a steal compared to what Splitter got let's be honest.

Call me when Tiago finish top 3 MIP and DPOY (and that doesn't even take into account the age difference).

[Chinook]

The fact that Sanders is younger than Splitter is actually a strike against him. The Spurs are paying for Splitter's physical prime, while the Bucks are paying for the years leading up to Sanders' prime. By the time Sanders is Splitter's age, he'll be making almost twice as much as Splitter is now. It's like the difference between giving a 21-year-old guard $11 Million for four years and giving a 25-year-old guard the same. The latter is a significantly better deal than the former.

And that's not even addressing the fact that Splitter's significantly better than Sanders is and is honestly likely to remain better than Sanders for the next four years.

[mountainballer]

It's a steal compared to what Splitter got let's be honest.

Call me when Tiago finish top 3 MIP and DPOY (and that doesn't even take into account the age difference).

lol. death, taxes and internet insanity.

[slick'81]

Wow tiago getting mad love

[Baam]

Wow tiago getting mad love
Yes not sure where that comes from. Certainly not from his resume :

2012 : pissed his pants when he got hacked shooting way lower than his season average at the line
2013 : worst player in the Lakers series and couldn't even get on the floor in the Finals, was a non factor in the post season for the third year in a row

Will be remembered for being blocked by Lebron.

Can be defended by any point guard since he doesn't have a post game and is soft as hell.

Has zero range.



But somehow the T-Vag lovers insist that he's better than a top 3 MIP and DPOY center :lol, guy is on pace to have a worse PO career than Bonner.

[Chinook]

Yeah, Sanders really stepped up in the playoffs. I mean, who can deny his epic 93 ORtg and 107 DRtg?

[TD 21]

The fact that Sanders is younger than Splitter is actually a strike against him. The Spurs are paying for Splitter's physical prime, while the Bucks are paying for the years leading up to Sanders' prime.

Not really. Given how athletically reliant Sanders is, there's a good chance that the four year extension will encompass a good amount of his physical prime.


It's like the difference between giving a 21-year-old guard $11 Million for four years and giving a 25-year-old guard the same. The latter is a significantly better deal than the former.

Only if the latter projects to be better than the former over the life of the contract.

[Chinook]

Not really. Given how athletically reliant Sanders is, there's a good chance that the four year extension will encompass a good amount of his physical prime.

If that's the case, then his deal won't seem very good in three years. He should continue to get stronger and fill out until he's about 28 or so.


Only if the latter projects to be better than the former over the life of the contract.

I feel that's the case typically. Contracts given out to guards that age are usually due to production and not potential. Most of the time players get overpaid in the league, it's because teams project them to be worth more than they actually are. I think there's less risk and thus a better expected return to give players in their prime big money over players who you hope reach their prime.

[Samr.]

Pek just got 5 years and $60 million from the tpups

[cd021]

Yes not sure where that comes from. Certainly not from his resume :

2012 : pissed his pants when he got hacked shooting way lower than his season average at the line
2013 : worst player in the Lakers series and couldn't even get on the floor in the Finals, was a non factor in the post season for the third year in a row

Will be remembered for being blocked by Lebron.

Can be defended by any point guard since he doesn't have a post game and is soft as hell.

Has zero range.





But somehow the T-Vag lovers insist that he's better than a top 3 MIP and DPOY center :lol, guy is on pace to have a worse PO career than Bonner.


:lolFunny you make fun of Splitters offense...

Sanders is a worse offensive player. A career true shooting percentage that 11% lower than Splitters.

12-13 Season
Offensive Win Share
Splitter-4.7
Sanders-2.3

Field Goal Percentage
Splitter-56.0%
Sanders-50.6%

True Shooting Percentage
Splitter-60.9%
Sanders-52.3

Per 36 minute PPG
Splitter-15.1
Sanders-12.1

Offensive Rating
Splitter-118
Sanders-109

Splitter and Sanders are essentially equal defenders, Sanders is a better individual defender (slightly) and Splitter is clearly the better team defender.

Sanders, blocks more shots but has a much higher foul rate. If he doesn't block your shot he's likely going to send someone to the free throw line.
Sander defensive rating of 98 isn't drastically lower than Splitters 101. Sanders 3.7 Defensive Win share is just .2 better than Splitters 3.5.

Splitter was apart of the 3rd best defensive unit in the NBA last year. He helped the Spurs rank 3rd in Defensive rating after ranking 11th the previous season. The spurs second best five man unit (Parker, Green, Leonard, Duncan & Diaw) were 6 points worse per 100 possessions defensively than the same lineup with Splitter even though that unit logged played a lot more minutes together.


Who cares what non spurs fans remember him by. If he wins a title with us he'll be remembered by Spurs fans as our starting center on a title team.

Talking about "pissing his pants" your "defensive anchor" had 5 block and 18 personal fouls in his postseason "run" with the Bucks he also had a turnover percentage of 24.7%. Saw his offensive rating dip from 109 to 93, (Splitters was 107) and his horrid 58% FT percentage drop to 45%.

By the way Splitter actually doubled his free throw percentage from the '12 post season to the '13 postseason. and nearly 20% from his rookie campaign to now, Sanders shot; 56.0 % (rookie) -47.4(sophomore)-61.8 (this past season) far worse than Tiago.

2013 Improved his Free throw shooting by 34% since his rookie season, Came up big in game 3 of the WCF, blocking a potential game winning layup and scoring 4 points and 6 and an assist In OT. That essentially wrapped up the series and helped us get back to the finals for the 1st time in 5 seasons.

Seriously this is getting embarrassing, man you're argument is nonsensical. Splitter as of now is a better player and getting paid $8 million less over the next 4 seasons. There is always a chance Sanders could stop developing and turn into a Dre Jordan. And then the Bucks could regret paying a large deal without waiting another year. McGee is far more gifted an athlete and is another talented shot blocker and has yet to developed into much more than a "per minute monster" in Denver. I wouldn't be that optimistic in Sanders becoming a perennial DVOP candidate.

Think of how few great big man defenders there are. Duncan, Noah, Hibbert, Howard, Chandler Garnett. Its more likely Sanders falls in to the better than average type of defender who is always going to be an unpolished offensively.

[cd021]

Not really. Given how athletically reliant Sanders is, there's a good chance that the four year extension will encompass a good amount of his physical prime.



Only if the latter projects to be better than the former over the life of the contract.

I think Chinook meant Splitter is experienced and has a track record. Him performing up to his contract is less a risk than Sanders, who just last season broke out. Sanders also has a lot of improving to do on offense while Splitter is already a more polished player. Sanders has talent to surpass Splitter and become the better value of the two but Splitters deal is definitely better because we know exactly what we're getting, The Bucks aren't that lucky and have to pay an addition $8 million.

[cd021]

Wow tiago getting mad love

For his production and his market value contract, it makes sense. Pek is getting $60 over 5 years. Sanders is getting 4 years $44 million. Both seem to be effectively mostly on offense or defense. Splitter is an efficient offensive player and a great team defender.

Spurs made an solid investment that will look even better down the road, IMO.

[Chinook]

I think Chinook meant Splitter is experienced and has a track record. Him performing up to his contract is less a risk than Sanders, who just last season broke out. Sanders also has a lot of improving to do on offense while Splitter is already a more polished player. Sanders has talent to surpass Splitter and become the better value of the two but Splitters deal is definitely better because we know exactly what we're getting, The Bucks aren't that lucky and have to pay an addition $8 million.

Pretty much. The Spurs are playing Splitter for what he is, and the Bucks are paying Sanders for what they hope he becomes. But Sanders won't reach his prime until after that contract is up, so the Bucks are paying for a player who won't exist while they're paying him. Splitter's at least a $9 Million player now. Sanders is at best a $7 Million player now whose value may be able to increase to $10 Million or so in three or four years.

[Baam]

It's strange that developing Sanders and prime T-Vag have the same PERs... Where do the two millions difference comes from in your estimate? Do you penalize Sanders for playing more minutes or for being the best defender on his own team, I can't tell.

Just gotta :lmao at a top 3 DPOY and MIP center being worth 7M, that's some funny shit.

[Baam]

I think Chinook meant Splitter is experienced and has a track record. Him performing up to his contract is less a risk than Sanders, who just last season broke out. Sanders also has a lot of improving to do on offense while Splitter is already a more polished player. Sanders has talent to surpass Splitter and become the better value of the two but Splitters deal is definitely better because we know exactly what we're getting, The Bucks aren't that lucky and have to pay an addition $8 million.

Yeah you know you're getting nothing in the post season.

[benefactor]

Yeah you know you're getting nothing in the post season.
...and you know what nothing looks like when you see it. You've got it down to an art.

[Chinook]

It's strange that developing Sanders and prime T-Vag have the same PERs... Where do the two millions difference comes from in your estimate? Do you penalize Sanders for playing more minutes or for being the best defender on his own team, I can't tell.

Just gotta :lmao at a top DPOY and MIP center being worth 7M, that's some funny shit.

Care to guess how many MIP candidates end up being worth their next deals? Not many, since they tend to be flashes in the pan on mediocre teams. As far as DPOY goes, Sanders didn't have anywhere near the WS/48 the max or near-max players who actually end up winning the awards did. I don't see how you can keep repping that award when Duncan was clearly a better defender and barely got consideration.

You're the one who doesn't understand how PER and DRtg are calculated. PER is an easy stat to inflate on a bad team, since it's pretty much taken as a percentage plays made in relation to those made by the rest of the team. Essentially, Splitter is competing with the Spurs' players for production while Sanders is competing with Bucks players for the same. The average PER for a Spurs player was 14.6, while the Bucks had an average PER of 12.8. Therefore, Splitter's PER means more than Sanders' does.

Defensive rating comes from two aspects. One is literally team defensive rating. The other is essentially the number of impact plays (blocks and steals) and rebounds and an estimate on how many shots are altered in relation to other teammates. It doesn't do anything for players to play good positional defense and deny entry passes, since that doesn't show up in the box scores. That's why big men who play no defense (Boozer) and point-guards who gamble for steals (Rondo and Paul) tend to have high DRtgs. It also discounts PFs in relation to blocks, which means a foul-happy shot-blocker like Sanders gets a little more credit than he deserves. Great defensive bigs like Duncan will get high DRtgs justifiably but a lot of solid defensive wings won't.

[cd021]

It's strange that developing Sanders and prime T-Vag have the same PERs... Where do the two millions difference comes from in your estimate? Do you penalize Sanders for playing more minutes or for being the best defender on his own team, I can't tell.

Just gotta :lmao at a top 3 DPOY and MIP center being worth 7M, that's some funny shit.

Yeah but he didn't win either of those awards did he? $7 million is more than fair. Splitter is a much more polished player on both ends and is a 4th or 5th option on a championship caliber team. Sanders is going to be the best player on the worst team in the east. Chances are he won't develop into nearly a well rounded player as Splitter for years. Likely not in the next 4 or 5 years.

young athletic big men with defensive mindsets rarely turn into all stars. If they do, its tends to be in age range of 27-30. More often then not they don't fully develop into and become a 1 sided threat.

Tyson Chandler for example bounced around from Chicago, New Orleans, Charlotte, Dallas, and to New York. Didn't make All defensive team till 2011 (10 seasons, at the age of 28) and didn't win a DVOP untill 29.

[cd021]

It's strange that developing Sanders and prime T-Vag have the same PERs... Where do the two millions difference comes from in your estimate? Do you penalize Sanders for playing more minutes or for being the best defender on his own team, I can't tell.

Just gotta :lmao at a top 3 DPOY and MIP center being worth 7M, that's some funny shit.

:lol top 3 in MIP and DPOY? Thats very generous. I guess players like Vasquez and Holiday weren't in the mix either. Or Duncan, Noah, & Hibbert for DVOP.

Duncan's 2.7 blocks to 1.5 personal fouls is a prime example of great defense. Sanders blocking a shot of fouling someone in the act of shooting...not so much.

[Baam]

You're the one who doesn't understand how PER and DRtg are calculated. PER is an easy stat to inflate on a bad team, since it's pretty much taken as a percentage plays made in relation to those made by the rest of the team. Essentially, Splitter is competing with the Spurs' players for production while Sanders is competing with Bucks players for the same. The average PER for a Spurs player was 14.6, while the Bucks had an average PER of 12.8. Therefore, Splitter's PER means more than Sanders' does.

While Sanders gets more FGA, Splitter gets better looks and faces less defensive pressure playing with All Stars, it's also easier for him to get assists, it doesn't make sense to nitpick because it goes both ways... Besides the whole point of PER is to compare players across the league...


Defensive rating comes from two aspects. One is literally team defensive rating. The other is essentially the number of impact plays (blocks and steals) and rebounds and an estimate on how many shots are altered in relation to other teammates. It doesn't do anything for players to play good positional defense and deny entry passes, since that doesn't show up in the box scores. That's why big men who play no defense (Boozer) and point-guards who gamble for steals (Rondo and Paul) tend to have high DRtgs. It also discounts PFs in relation to blocks, which means a foul-happy shot-blocker like Sanders gets a little more credit than he deserves. Great defensive bigs like Duncan will get high DRtgs justifiably but a lot of solid defensive wings won't.

Defensive rating is extremely straight forward as an indicator tbh, but somehow it's also part of a mysterious conspiracy to make Sanders look better than he is :downspin:.

[Baam]

:lol top 3 in MIP and DPOY? Thats very generous. I guess players like Vasquez and Holiday weren't in the mix either. Or Duncan, Noah, & Hibbert for DVOP.

Duncan's 2.7 blocks to 1.5 personal fouls is a prime example of great defense. Sanders blocking a shot of fouling someone in the act of shooting...not so much.

Somehow it's suddenly about Sanders vs Duncan now :rolleyes.

[Chinook]

While Sanders gets more FGA, Splitter gets better looks and faces less defensive pressure playing with All Stars, it's also easier for him to get assists, it doesn't make sense to nitpick because it goes both ways... Besides the whole point of PER is to compare players across the league...

It's not about the straight number of assists, points, etc. PER uses percentages. So for example on a team where there are several great rebounders (not saying the Spurs), each of them will have a lower rebound percentage, because there are more people competing for the boards. This applies to stats like assists as well. So Sanders just has to be the best player on his team to have a good PER. Splitter has to be so good in the non-percentage-of-the-team areas, like TS% and TOV% that he overcomes the fact that he gets a comparatively small percentage of the pie. This doesn't mean Sanders is a bad player, but it's very likely that his PER would be lower on the Spurs and that Splitter's would be a lot higher on the Bucks.


Defensive rating is extremely straight forward as an indicator tbh, but somehow it's also part of a mysterious conspiracy to make Sanders look better than he is :downspin:.

Team defensive rating is very straight-forward. It's just the number of points allowed per 100 possessions. Individual defensive rating is actually really complicated, and it makes a ton of assumptions. That means you have to take it with a grain of salt. Look at the formulae yourself.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

[Baam]

It's not about the straight number of assists, points, etc. PER uses percentages. So for example on a team where there are several great rebounders (not saying the Spurs), each of them will have a lower rebound percentage, because there are more people competing for the boards. This applies to stats like assists as well. So Sanders just has to be the best player on his team to have a good PER. Splitter has to be so good in the non-percentage-of-the-team areas, like TS% and TOV% that he overcomes the fact that he gets a comparatively small percentage of the pie. This doesn't mean Sanders is a bad player, but it's very likely that his PER would be lower on the Spurs and that Splitter's would be a lot higher on the Bucks.

No because the Spurs are a bad rebounding team for instance so that doesn't mean shit, it should be easier to make an impact rebounding wise on a bad rebounding team.


Team defensive rating is very straight-forward. It's just the number of points allowed per 100 possessions. Individual defensive rating is actually really complicated, and it makes a ton of assumptions. That means you have to take it with a grain of salt. Look at the formulae yourself.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

Thanks the formula was more complicated than I thought.

"Notes:

In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player's ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team's offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player's ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role."

So that means the mighty offensive rating of Splitter was way easier to get for him but you didn't have a problem with that obviously. So you're nitpicking accepted indicators only when it fits your argument when it basically all evens out, I don't think this is a very interesting discussion...


"Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.
Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history's best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team's defensive success). A corollary to this is that excellent perimeter defenders who don't steal the ball a lot — for instance, Joe Dumars or Doug Christie — are underrated defensively by DRtg, and are prone to look only as good as their team's overall defense performs.
As always, if you have any comments or questions, please send us feedback."

Then again even if the formula is more obscure than I thought I don't think this changes things a lot. Splitter benefit from the great team defense while Sanders benefits from ending more possessions (if anything steals are the worst thing about defensive rating because great shot blockers have an intimidation factor that makes them more valuable when steals don't have that kind of redeeming factor)...

[mountainballer]

It's a steal compared to what Splitter got let's be honest.

Call me when Tiago finish top 3 MIP and DPOY (and that doesn't even take into account the age difference).

btw. Sanders never ever was top 3 in the DPOY votes. not even close. neither was he elected to the all NBA defensive team.
not only is your praise of a pretty average player more and more ridiculous, you even use fake "arguments" to back up this claim.

[Chinook]

No because the Spurs are a bad rebounding team for instance so that doesn't mean shit, it should be easier to make an impact rebounding wise on a bad rebounding team.

It should. Firstly, the Spurs aren't a bad rebounding team -- they are a bad offensive rebounding team. They were third in the league in defensive rebounds. The Bucks were third-to-last. So Splitter was competing with better defensive rebounders like Duncan and Leonard, when Sanders didn't have anyone comparable. Then on offense, since the Spurs don't go for those boards, Splitter's rebounding rate is at a significant disadvantage. Not that this means Sanders isn't a better rebounder (he is), but it does explain some of the difference.

Regardless, that's why I said it was just an example. The other percentages are a big factor here in addition the other ratios brought forth by the formula.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html


So that means the mighty offensive rating of Splitter was way easier to get for him but you didn't have a problem with that obviously. So you're nitpicking accepted indicators only when it fits your argument when it basically all evens out, I don't think this is a very interesting discussion...

As far as offensive rating goes, part that you quoted said that you have to look at ORtg in relation to USG%. Splitter's USG% was 18.2 last year. Sander's was 16.9. That means that the difference between their offensive impacts is actually slightly greater than the ORtgs suggest. Splitter was more productive in a bigger role. I didn't nitpick. Splitter is a significantly better offensive player than Sanders is, and all advanced stats will bear that out.

If you look at the formula for DRtg, you'd see exactly how skewed the numbers in favor of shot-blocking bigs. As the quote you posted said, DRtg is pretty much agnostic to strong positional defense and ball denial, so defenders who do their work early and prevent shots instead of challenging them don't get the benefit of the math. So Splitter's best defensive attributes (agility and intelligence) don't lead to him blocking a lot of shots or even forcing a lot of misses, as he can often force a pass before the shot. While a lot of Sanders' blocks come from protecting the rim, a lot of them come from him not being a solid in post defense as Splitter is (letting players get into his body and relying on his length to deflect shots). He reaches down when he blocks instead of staying up, which explains his high foul rate (which is downplayed by the formula, as I've said earlier).

[Strategic]

:lol at ST (im)posters arguing based on loser franchises signings.

[cd021]

Somehow it's suddenly about Sanders vs Duncan now :rolleyes.

Somehow you think he was a top 3 in either DVOP or MIP Athletic bigs takes years to develop and often develop as one sided threats in their late 20's. Odds are he will do the same.

Duncan was a better defender, as was Gasol, Noah also anchored a top 8 defense with Belineli, Heinrick, Boozer and Robinson all playing big roles for the team (an impressive feat)

Sanders was th anchor of a mediocre defense that also has a alot of baring in DVOP.

[Baam]

It should. Firstly, the Spurs aren't a bad rebounding team -- they are a bad offensive rebounding team. They were third in the league in defensive rebounds. The Bucks were third-to-last. So Splitter was competing with better defensive rebounders like Duncan and Leonard, when Sanders didn't have anyone comparable. Then on offense, since the Spurs don't go for those boards, Splitter's rebounding rate is at a significant disadvantage. Not that this means Sanders isn't a better rebounder (he is), but it does explain some of the difference.

Regardless, that's why I said it was just an example. The other percentages are a big factor here in addition the other ratios brought forth by the formula.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html



As far as offensive rating goes, part that you quoted said that you have to look at ORtg in relation to USG%. Splitter's USG% was 18.2 last year. Sander's was 16.9. That means that the difference between their offensive impacts is actually slightly greater than the ORtgs suggest. Splitter was more productive in a bigger role. I didn't nitpick. Splitter is a significantly better offensive player than Sanders is, and all advanced stats will bear that out.

Lol ok I didn't even check since I assumed it was the other way around, so basically it means that Sanders' PER is more meaningful since PER is biased towards usage rate, basically it's a never ending argument, you're indeed ajusting your standards the way that favors your opinion.

It's ok to say that you disagree but don't try to make it a fact with that kind of tactic...


If you look at the formula for DRtg, you'd see exactly how skewed the numbers in favor of shot-blocking bigs. As the quote you posted said, DRtg is pretty much agnostic to strong positional defense and ball denial, so defenders who do their work early and prevent shots instead of challenging them don't get the benefit of the math. So Splitter's best defensive attributes (agility and intelligence) don't lead to him blocking a lot of shots or even forcing a lot of misses, as he can often force a pass before the shot. While a lot of Sanders' blocks come from protecting the rim, a lot of them come from him not being a solid in post defense as Splitter is (letting players get into his body and relying on his length to deflect shots). He reaches down when he blocks instead of staying up, which explains his high foul rate (which is downplayed by the formula, as I've said earlier).

You assume a lot there, pretty much talking out of your ass, Tony Allen who is the best at denying the ball is 4th in defensive rating without a really high number of steals because defensive rating is not agnostic at all to team defense :rolleyes...

[Chinook]

Lol ok I didn't even check since I assumed it was the other way around, so basically it means that Sanders' PER is more meaningful since PER is biased towards usage rate, basically it's a never ending argument, you're indeed ajusting your standards the way that favors your opinion.

PER does not address usage rate, only percentages of the stats. In many ways those two things are similar, as players with high usage rates will typically score a higher percentage of points and to a small extent assists. But it has nothing to do with blocks, rebounds, turnovers, steals, fouls and everything else that goes into PER. The fact that Splitter is a bigger part of the offense when he's in the game does not account for the fact that other players are taking stats from him. Pretty much, Splitter has to be uber-efficient to have his PER, since despite his USG%, the Spurs are a much more efficient team than the Bucks are. For every two points he scores, someone is picking up an assist. For every good defensive possession he has, someone is getting the rebound. Sanders can inflate his PER by being the only competent true big on his team (due to the blocks and rebounds). On the Spurs, Sanders would not put up nearly as good of numbers, as he would be fighting Duncan and Leonard for boards and Duncan for blocks.

Also, PER factors in other teammate's efficiency (implicitly). So simply having a lower usage rate doesn't make Sanders more efficient. It just means he was as efficient in relation to his teammates as Splitter was in relation to his. That calibration is why the average PER can remain at 15.


You assume a lot there, pretty much talking out of your ass, Tony Allen who is the best at denying the ball is 4th in defensive rating without a really high number of steals because defensive rating is not agnostic at all to team defense :rolleyes...

Team defense is not the same thing as positional defense ... it's pretty much the opposite. If you read the link I sent you about defensive rating, you'd see that wing defenders can have good DRtgs if their teams have good team DRtgs. But it's hard for them to put up a good DRtg if their team doesn't have one. Also Allen was sixth in the league in steal percentage, so I don't know how you get the idea that he didn't steal the ball a lot.

[spurraider21]

Are we still talking about this? :lol

[Baam]

If you don't think PER rewards higher usage rate then you don't understand PER. On the Spurs Sanders would have an higher usage rate and better looks among other advantages...

[Bruno]

OT: Meanwhile and at the 50th day of the offseason, Spurs still don't have that long SF/Combo forward/mobile PF that they badly need. That's just so weird. :depressed

[DPG21920]

It's quite scary to hear the logic of RC when speaking about the off season. It literally makes no sense nor does the actual moves they made in context of what potential there could have been.

[gambit1990]

is bertans rehabbing in sa?

[Bruno]

is bertans rehabbing in sa?

Yes, he is. The latest on him is that he will be back in February/March.

Link (in Latvian):
http://sportsvalmiera.lv/06082013-davis_bertans_visticamak_laukuma_varetu_a

[Bruno]

In the ACL surgeries category, it seems that Livio Jean-Charles got his surgery last week in Lyon. There was a Spurs doctor with him.

Link (in French): http://www.tonicradio.fr/index.php/basket/asvel-info/23243-asvel-info--livio-opere-dans-la-semaine-a-lyon

[Big P]

I honestly think the FO is torn what to do...we always have at least one or two roster spots open at the beginning of the season, but now we have 14 guaranteed spots and a huge glaring weakness at the backup SF position. Do we sign someone like Antawn Jamsion, or do we leave that spot open to see who becomes available after the start of the season.

[Chinook]

If you don't think PER rewards higher usage rate then you don't understand PER. On the Spurs Sanders would have an higher usage rate and better looks among other advantages...

It's player EFFICIENCY rating. To have anything to do with USG% would undercut the standardization. I showed you the formula. USG% is not part of the equation at all. It's not implied by any of the components, either. It's a lot harder to maintain a high PER in a bigger role, which is why per-minute monsters have high PERs early in their careers, but lower PERs once their roles increase.

You're really not doing a good job parsing advanced stats. That's cool. It's also cool for you to believe Sanders' is better than Splitter. But don't go around arguing about numbers if you refuse to understand how they are calculated.

[99 Problems]

Lets see who gets a training camp invite.

[Hoops Czar]

I honestly think the FO is torn what to do...we always have at least one or two roster spots open at the beginning of the season, but now we have 14 guaranteed spots and a huge glaring weakness at the backup SF position. Do we sign someone like Antawn Jamsion, or do we leave that spot open to see who becomes available after the start of the season.

The FO is foreign to American born players.

[Robz4000]

I honestly think the FO is torn what to do...we always have at least one or two roster spots open at the beginning of the season, but now we have 14 guaranteed spots and a huge glaring weakness at the backup SF position. Do we sign someone like Antawn Jamsion, or do we leave that spot open to see who becomes available after the start of the season.

If it's between Jamison and leaving it open, I'd vote for the latter 99% of the time.

[Strategic]

OT: Meanwhile and at the 50th day of the offseason, Spurs still don't have that long SF/Combo forward/mobile PF that they badly need. That's just so weird. :depressedThe Spurs don't even have someone we can all talk trash about, say like a Donte Greene, on the hook.

[mountainballer]

what do we expect around this time of the year? the market is more or less in a coma. we will see some movements in September, when training camp moves closer. and right now it's all about guaranteed money. players won't start to sign unguaranteed contracts till few days before camp. and teams don't hand out guaranteed money right now.
see the mentioned Donte Green.
didn't play for a season and was far from a reliable player before the injury.
he is still young, so some teams will be interested (maybe Spurs as well). but no team will risk a full guaranteed contract, otherwise he would already be signed. so why should he sign an unguaranteed contract right now? he knows he can get one comes camp time. but then some teams will start to offer guarateed parts, if they have a glaring need.
the other such candidate is James Johnson. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the two ends up with the Spurs. but this likely won't happen before mid September.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Man, it's really unfortunate that Bertans tore his ACL. Was really looking forward to seeing him play.

[Seventyniner]

*snip*

Your avatar has always thrown me off. Why would someone wearing a Ginobili shirt pantomime shooting right-handed?

[Bruno]

what do we expect around this time of the year? the market is more or less in a coma

Nothing, I'm just whining because Spurs have screwed their off-season. But, yeah, Spurs summer has been basically over for more than a month. Some players will be signed for the training camp but it would take a lot of luck that one of them turn out as a player able to contribute.

[ace3g]

Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine
(http://twitter.com/ESPNSteinLine)Houston Rockets, I'm told, are wrapping up a deal with free agent Ronnie Brewer

[HankChinaski]

You figured they would just agree to disagree since its been over a week or more of them continue verbal lobs at each other. At this point they either get off on arguing or just so bored this is all they have to look forward to

[Tyrone Jenkins]

I still don't know why Mikael Pietrus hasn't been checked on...he's can play perimeter D, had a decent 3 from the corner and is French speaking. Not sure of his health status but I think he'd be a great backup SF.

[mountainballer]

Nothing, I'm just whining because Spurs have screwed their off-season. But, yeah, Spurs summer has been basically over for more than a month. Some players will be signed for the training camp but it would take a lot of luck that one of them turn out as a player able to contribute.

I can't see them not follow some options. and I wonder if the Sanikidze situation isn't something that happens behind the scenes. last time when Sanikidze was available (summer 2012) Spurs had Kawhi and Jack at the SF spot. that summer they pretty sure didn't see a need to bring in a player like him. (at least not for guaranteed money and maybe even more than one year). so Sanikidze signed a 3 years contract with one of the top teams in Europe (2012 Siena could still be ranked atop team). btw. back then it was reported that he got 2 years guarantee and a TO for 2014-15. lately we learned that his contract wasn't extended for 2013-14?? a bit confusing.

anyway, the situation about Sanikidze looks totally different this year and I can see a good chance that it currently goes like this: (keep in mind that Spurs and Sanikidze's agent Marc Fleisher are very familiar for more than a decade. Tony, Baynes etc.)
Spurs have offered a 2 years min. contract, 2nd year TO. that's pretty sure less than what he got in Siena and Sanikidze will be looking for more money and more years and still waits what the Euro market offers. Spurs do understand his situation and give a deadline, let's say September 15th. till then the offer is on the table. this would mean they don't sign other players till then. (unsless those players are just camp invitees).

well, just a scenario born out of boredom.

[Bruno]

I can't see them not follow some options. and I wonder if the Sanikidze situation isn't something that happens behind the scenes.

When I saw Sanikidze play and when I looked at his stats, what strikes me is that he isn't good enough to play in the NBA. I just don't see Spurs being interest him regardless of his availability.

If Spurs are still looking at a SF, a prime criteria will be his ability to shoot 3's. When you look back in the past, Spurs/Pop almost never went with a wing that wasn't able to shoot. In the last decade, only exceptions would be Malik Haiston, who played mostly garbage time minutes, and Ron Mercer, who was waived after half a season. Like you, I find that James Johnson is a good option but Spurs might not even consider him because of his lack of 3 point shooting.

[ace3g]

Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA
(http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA)Detroit has reached agreement with forward Josh Harrellson on a one-year, partially guaranteed deal, league source tells Y! Sports.

[lmbebo]

Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA
(http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA)Detroit has reached agreement with forward Josh Harrellson on a one-year, partially guaranteed deal, league source tells Y! Sports.




Not a bad pick up. Thought he played well when he was with the Knicks

[rick1991]

Richard Hamilton? Who could we get right now that is better than RIP? He could play some backup SF considering he is 6-7. And we could probably get him for the min.

[NickiRasgo]

Bruno, what do you think are the Spurs are gonna do for the 15th roster spot?

- Spurs are just waiting for the right moment to sign a back-up SF? Like someone will get waive or in trading block.

- It seems that the 15th spot the Spurs are looking is PG (based from previous rumors), maybe the Spurs are planning to trade Bonner for an SF?

- Or the Spurs will try to play Diaw in SF in the first half of the season or just like what other is mentioning, it might be Manu/Bellineli for the combo 2/3. How's Diaw by the way in NT?

Maybe the Spurs are not rushing things but they should've acquire AK47, damn. Realistically I think the Spurs can survive before the trade deadline with a hole in 1 and 3.

[mountainballer]

When I saw Sanikidze play and when I looked at his stats, what strikes me is that he isn't good enough to play in the NBA. I just don't see Spurs being interest him regardless of his availability.

If Spurs are still looking at a SF, a prime criteria will be his ability to shoot 3's. When you look back in the past, Spurs/Pop almost never went with a wing that wasn't able to shoot. In the last decade, only exceptions would be Malik Haiston, who played mostly garbage time minutes, and Ron Mercer, who was waived after half a season. Like you, I find that James Johnson is a good option but Spurs might not even consider him because of his lack of 3 point shooting.

about Sanikidze......yeah, you are likely right. of course there is one skill that stands out and that is definitely NBA level and that's his rebounding. (this looks even more impressive in the per minute stats). I also think that he didn't look bad in the first half of his season with Siena. thought he might find a niche like say Jonas Jerebko. (who of course was much younger and also a bit stronger, when he came to the NBA).

btw. the whole backup diskussion would be solved if this scenario happened: Beli comes in and is an immediate success. he outplays Green for the starting 2 spot. DG is moved to first back up SF and 2nd back up SG. (Manu is the 1st back up SG). it has been mentioned before, DG is capable of playing SF and I would even claim he is in the upper 20% of all NBA back up SFs, even without ideal size for the position. so, let's hope Beli enters the stage with a bang.

[Chinook]

^It would be interesting, but unlikely. Green is in the starting lineup for his defense and three-point shooting, neither of which is currently matched by Beli. As much as people act like having a two-guard who can create is a missing piece to the first unit, the starting lineup is so dominated by Parker and Duncan (and possibly Leonard going forward) that it doesn't make too much sense to priorities that over a three-and-D specialist.

I think what's more likely is that the Spurs pretty much play the lineups we expect them to play during the regular season then switch over to a rotation in which Leonard plays almost all of the minutes at the three and Green takes the rest while also starting at the two. Pretty much, it would be the same as the playoff rotation last season, except Beli would get Neal's minutes. After what happened in the Finals, I think it's significantly more likely that Green gets a minutes increase than it is that he gets a demotion to the bench. Of course, anything can happen, so I'm definitely not saying your scenario is ludicrous.

[Bruno]

btw. the whole backup diskussion would be solved if this scenario happened: Beli comes in and is an immediate success. he outplays Green for the starting 2 spot. DG is moved to first back up SF and 2nd back up SG. (Manu is the 1st back up SG). it has been mentioned before, DG is capable of playing SF and I would even claim he is in the upper 20% of all NBA back up SFs, even without ideal size for the position. so, let's hope Beli enters the stage with a bang.

I think Pop's answer will be way simpler: Manu will be the backup SF. Parker/Green/Leonard will start and Joseph/Belinelli/Ginobili will back them up.

Ginobili played a lot of SF with Spurs. In 08-09, 10-11 and 11-12, he played an average about 38% of his minutes at the SF spot. Pop played lineups with a combination of Parker, Hill, Mason then Neal at guards with Manu at SF.

[Bruno]

Bruno, what do you think are the Spurs are gonna do for the 15th roster spot?

I think they will keep it open for the moment, sign some quality forwards for the training camp with maybe some guaranteed money to attract them and wait to see if one stand out during the preseason. If they all suck, they will start the season with 14 players.



- Spurs are just waiting for the right moment to sign a back-up SF? Like someone will get waive or in trading block.

That late in the summer, players aren't generally traded or waived so it seems unlikely. It Spurs are doing that, I would say that they are targeting Hedo.



- It seems that the 15th spot the Spurs are looking is PG (based from previous rumors), maybe the Spurs are planning to trade Bonner for an SF?

I don't see Spurs adding a PG will mean that they will get a SF through a trade. If Spurs add a PG and need a roster spot, they will then trade or waive one of their other guards to create that roster spot. Keeping 8 guards (The new PG, Parker, Green, Ginobili, Belinelli, Jospeh, De Colo and Mills) is useless.



- Or the Spurs will try to play Diaw in SF in the first half of the season or just like what other is mentioning, it might be Manu/Bellineli for the combo 2/3. How's Diaw by the way in NT?

Diaw has been very good with the NT so far. The most noticeable is that he shoot way more the ball than with Spurs. He has played 7 games and has taken 49 FGA in 149 minutes. It makes 11.8 FGA per 36 minutes while he is at 7 FGA/ per 6 minutes with Spurs. When Diaw is shooting at that rate, he is so much better.

Diaw at SF is a bad bad idea. He is just to slow to play that position. Furthermore, it's not like Spurs have a lot of quality at PF/C behind Duncan and Splitter. Diaw is needed to play these minutes ahead of Bonner, Pendergraph and Baynes.

[jyra]

370216239999614976

[cjw]

I think Pop's answer will be way simpler: Manu will be the backup SF. Parker/Green/Leonard will start and Joseph/Belinelli/Ginobili will back them up.

Ginobili played a lot of SF with Spurs. In 08-09, 10-11 and 11-12, he played an average about 38% of his minutes at the SF spot. Pop played lineups with a combination of Parker, Hill, Mason then Neal at guards with Manu at SF.


As long as Manu can physically hold up against opposing SF. I'd be less worried about him facing bench 3's than starting 3's, and if it's a bad matchup, Diaw can guard that guy and Manu can likely slide over to the lesser of the two bigs and just play off him. No bench unit is going to have three tough guards at 3-4-5. Rebounding with that lineup may be a bit of a problem though.

[ace3g]

Free agent center Dexter Pittman has accepted an invitation to the Chicago Bulls’ training camp, a league source told RealGM.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/229497/Dexter-Pittman-Accepts-Training-Camp-Invite-With-Bulls

[ace3g]

Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA
(http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA)New Orleans has reached agreement w/ forward Arinze Onuaku on two-year deal, source tells Y! Non-guarantee in '13-14; team option in 14-'15.

[ace3g]

HoopsHype ‏@hoopshype (https://twitter.com/hoopshype) 3h (https://twitter.com/hoopshype/status/370554500227923968) Former Lakers forward Josh Powell will work out with the Pelicans today, one source told HoopsHype. http://po.st/JYniQi (http://t.co/fTlL4ilXip)

[ace3g]

Adrian Wojnarowski @WojYahooNBA
(http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA)Memphis has traded guard Tony Wroten to the 76ers for a future second round pick, league source tells Y! Sports.

[loveforthegame]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/229524/Seth-Curry-To-Sign-With-Warriors


Seth Curry will sign a non-guaranteed deal with the Golden State Warriors on Friday.

[ace3g]

Johan Petro To Sign In Chinahttp://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/229527/Johan-Petro-To-Sign-In-China

[ace3g]

Rick Bonnell ‏@rick_bonnell (https://twitter.com/rick_bonnell) James Southerland, who went undrafted in June, has accepted a camp invitation, but nothing yet signed with the Bobcats.

[ace3g]

Jared Zwerling @JaredZwerling
(http://twitter.com/JaredZwerling)Royal Ivey speaking to the kids. He has workouts with the Hawks and Spurs coming up soon. instagram.com/p/daDQwMRUmg/ (http://t.co/XzMLLSkscy)

[Hoops Czar]

Working out another guard. RC is just clowning himself now.

[mountainballer]

Jared Zwerling @JaredZwerling
(http://twitter.com/JaredZwerling)Royal Ivey speaking to the kids. He has workouts with the Hawks and Spurs coming up soon. instagram.com/p/daDQwMRUmg/ (http://t.co/XzMLLSkscy)

don't understand this. especially not with Joseph on the roster.

[Bruno]

Ivey, who is a 3 and D player, will be great fit with a second unit that should have Belinelli at SG and Ginobili at SF.

I really like Joseph but his inability to hit a perimeter shot might turn out a a so big issue that it would cost him the backup PG spot. In the NBA Joseph is 11/47 (23.4%) from 3 point land and 22/60 (36.7%) on 16ft+ 2 pointers. That's just bad and it's even more problematic with Joseph not being a great slasher.