Official 2016 Summer League Thread

[sasaint]

Our interior defense is TURRIBLE.

[SAGirl]

I've been watching on and off. Anything good from LJC yet?
A few defensive plays in transition, a block. I think he's probably the most athletic big in the team in my estimation but no offensive game. .. was out of place defensively a few other possessions, but to be fair to him, the perimeter defense was horrendous. He couldn't cover for so many guys being blown by.

[DPG21920]

The feet shuffling is usually a guy who is having to think about what he's doing while he's doing it.

To me, he looks a lot like he did in the regular season last year. He shows flashes of recognition, but then looks like he's in over his head about half the time. It just looks like he's not sure of himself a lot. But when he sees a lane to the basket, that light comes on and he looks totally different.

That is a good point - but someone that has played pro ball like him should be moving. IMO - he needs to err on giving effort and really going 100%. The trotting around stands out to me.

[td4mvp2k]

Murray looks like sh*t tbh

[raybies]

humbling game for Murray. needs to be broken down to be built back up.

[SAGirl]

I heard Becky yelling at Murray to move that ball.

[TheGreatYacht]

Simmons and Stokes carrying scrubs

[LakerHater]

Finally got one

[DPG21920]

Murray & LJC with no chemistry on those screens :lol

[raybies]

layup nice!!! glad he didn't settle for a floater

[sasaint]

In the big league, Stokes gets that blocked.

[wildbill2u]

Murray looks like a 19 yo rookie trying to do to much to show he should have been drafted higher. He will have to get over himself--and this game may help. He isn't playing well.

Second thought. Simmons just has unbelievable body control around the basket on a drive. Wish he had better bb IQ

[SAGirl]

nice bounce pass Arci

[TheGreatYacht]

This Hanlan scrub is the best we could get for Boris? :lol RC

[sasaint]

Murray looks like a 19 yo rookie trying to do to much to show he should have been drafted higher. He will have to get over himself--and this game may help. He isn't playing well.

Second thought. Simmons just has unbelievable body control around the basket on a drive. Wish he had better bb IQ

Re Simmons: you said it. However, I also wish he would develop a jump-stop for short jumpers rather than forcing it to the rim EVERY drive.

[SAGirl]

In the big league, Stokes gets that blocked.
Yea, he can't play as a big. The last game against Vonleh he was ghastly. He's been better here with bad defense by Chicago and gotten open layups. He won't get that in the big leagues... and it's so obvious how he's the size of a wing. Me no likey Stokes bc of that. GSH was right about him as far as I am concerned.

[wildbill2u]

I like Cummings overall game. In every game he has some nice stats and seems to know how to play this game. Good defender, speedy, and can shoot 3s when he has the open shot. not flashy, but is a nice player.

[sasaint]

nice bounce pass Arci

Tbh, Dejounte Arcidiacono would be a great young player.

[raybies]

i think Bryn Forbes isn't getting that much run as before, because PATFO has seen enough and want to see if there's any reason they should consider anyone else. I could be way off base, but that's my opinion. He has played really solid defensively and offensively.

[TheGreatYacht]

Williams just ignored my dude Lorbek like that smh

[SAGirl]

Re Simmons: you said it. However, I also wish he would develop a jump-stop for short jumpers rather than forcing it to the rim EVERY drive.
It's likely Simmons will make do this season bc we don't have enough depth, and Murray is just absolutely too raw.

JSimms will be fine in the regular season IMO. Just won't be this high usage. Contrary to others, I think he has improved too. What Pop will probably get on him the most is the defense. Still gets blown by and things of that nature.

[sasaint]

I like Cummings overall game. In every game he has some nice stats and seems to know how to play this game. Good defender, speedy, and can shoot 3s when he has the open shot. not flashy, but is a nice player.

Yeah, I hope Cummings goes to Austin.

[Keepin' it real]

Lorbek needs to go.

[raybies]

can lorbek jump? 2 inch vertical

[TheGreatYacht]

Mills-Manu-Simmons-Stokes-Dedmon.... I like that :tu

[sasaint]

i think Bryn Forbes isn't getting that much run as before, because PATFO has seen enough and want to see if there's any reason they should consider anyone else. I could be way off base, but that's my opinion. He has played really solid defensively and offensively.

You could be right. Cummings may get a camp invite.

[Keepin' it real]

i think Bryn Forbes isn't getting that much run as before, because PATFO has seen enough and want to see if there's any reason they should consider anyone else. I could be way off base, but that's my opinion. He has played really solid defensively and offensively.

Really? Looks lousy after his hot start in first two games.

[ElNono]

Thanks. I was looking forward to see his improvement. Sounds like he doesn't like Vegas anyways so I guess he got what he needed from it.

The fact anybody in the FO thought he was "dominant" in the first two games in Vegas should sound the alarms, tbh...

[sasaint]

can lorbek jump? 2 inch vertical

Welcome back, Red Rocket.

[raybies]

Really? Looks lousy after his hot start in first two games.

Nah, he had a bounce back game last game and one of the two games that he was off, he still had 9 in one game. So he's definitely not Darius Bertans, but he's not Neal hot either.

[raybies]

I'm really high on Forbes. I think he's in lead for one of the two final spots.

[ElNono]

From what we've seen so far, Forbes, Archi and Simmons to the main team, Murray to Austin, LJC back to France and see if we can get a 2nd round pick for Kyle, tbh...

[raybies]

stokes needs to look up

[raybies]

From what we've seen so far, Forbes, Archi and Simmons to the main team, Murray to Austin, LJC back to France and see if we can get a 2nd round pick for Kyle, tbh...

:lol

[timtonymanu]

The fact anybody in the FO thought he was "dominant" in the first two games in Vegas should sound the alarms, tbh...

Not a fan of Fathead either at this point.

[TheGreatYacht]

LJC doesn't help on the boards for shit smh

[ElNono]

Feels like David West never left, we can't rebound for shit

[raybies]

these announcers are not that bad. the play by play guy is pretty good and i like brad's color commentating

[Spurs9]

What happened to Murray?

[timtonymanu]

Feels like David West never left, we can't rebound for shit

:lmao

[TheGreatYacht]

LJC... 2 boards in 16min smh

[td4mvp2k]

wanted to see more cady

[sasaint]

LJC doesn't help on the boards for shit smh

Is he already under contract. Some poster said we had made "promises" to him that we were bound to honor. Smh.

[td4mvp2k]

LJC :wow

[sasaint]

Was that LJC with the pretty rainbow? :wow

[raybies]

that was too pure by LJC. Luck lol

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

The announcer's cousin is apparently really fucking weird

[LakerHater]

the fuck murray

[raybies]

not a spurs pass by cummings

[LakerHater]

Murray!

[raybies]

murray!!! love it when he doesn't settle for the floater. Can't stress it enough.

[BillMc]

Off the subject, but as there are a lot of eyes on this thread. Isn't Kawhi's kid due soon? Thought it was mid-July.

[myhc]

clutch FTs by Simmons

[Keepin' it real]

Well if LJC is the 15th man, then I guess it doesn't matter that he sucks.

[HI-FI]

I like the Murray pick a lot but Chip better clear out his schedule, just saying.

[ElNono]

Need Archi and Forbes out there to close this.... not this Murray shit

[td4mvp2k]

Wtf murray :pctoss

[TheGreatYacht]

Murray can only finish inside if it's an and one smh

[LakerHater]

fuck murray

[ElNono]

:lmao Stokes

[DPG21920]

Man great look by Forbes even though the pass was bad.

[TheGreatYacht]

Forbes shitting the bed at the wrong time.

[LakerHater]

:lol Stokes

[GSH]

You could see Stokes' vertical challenge going for that rebound.

[td4mvp2k]

Simmons :tu

[loveforthegame]

Simmons will.

[Keepin' it real]

Murray having his "George Hill" summer league game.

[ace3g]

Simmons!!!

[sasaint]

Simmons' hustle!

[ElNono]

Capt Simmons carrying these scrubs

[FaM0us Skins]

Good hustle

[Ron Swanson]

Off the subject, but as there are a lot of eyes on this thread. Isn't Kawhi's kid due soon? Thought it was mid-July.

In a somewhat related note, we have some guys who play like they are 9 months pregnant.

[LakerHater]

Shit Simms

[DPG21920]

Bunch of un-clutch players! :lol

[ElNono]

welp... :lol

[loveforthegame]

Missed fts. smh

[raybies]

Simmons!!!

[BatManu20]

Looks like the Spurs inability to hit FT's even trickles down to the SL team.

[DPG21920]

Last time I'm going to say it but damn it, I wish SA would have taken a flier on McCaw. Watching some of this GS game too and he's looking solid again.

[myhc]

doh!

[ElNono]

quick foul, Forbes for 3, OT... that's the plan

[ace3g]

Bunch of un-clutch players! :lol

We need Bertans cleared to play.

[td4mvp2k]

Becky goat

[beirmeistr]

In a somewhat related note, we have some guys who play like they are 9 months pregnant.

hilarious!

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Simons inability to pass is going to shorten his career in the NBA.

[BatManu20]

#BringBackKA

[TheGreatYacht]

Those Murray blown layups cost us the game lol

[BillMc]

In a somewhat related note, we have some guys who play like they are 9 months pregnant.

:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

#BringBackKA
I agree. Bring him back to Vegas and leave him there.

[DPG21920]

Calling it now: Becky runs the same play Arc did for the National Championship :lol

He dribbles, turns around for the shovel pass and Simmons hits it.

[HI-FI]

Give the ball to Lorbek and get the hell outta the way.

[loveforthegame]

Bum way to lose.

[TheGreatYacht]

Foh Becky

[DPG21920]

Dat play

[Ron Swanson]

Tank for the #1 pick.

[Keepin' it real]

Fire everyone.

[td4mvp2k]

:(

[GSH]

That is a good point - but someone that has played pro ball like him should be moving. IMO - he needs to err on giving effort and really going 100%. The trotting around stands out to me.


Yeah. I'm afraid he may be a one trick pony. With as much time as he's spent in the NBA, and the kind of player people are hoping he will be? He should look like a man among boys out there, and he hasn't the last two games. I know he put up points, but mostly it's the same thing. When he has a lane to the basket (or thinks he does) he goes strong. The rest of the time, he's not doing much.

He will make the roster, I think, because there isn't much choice. But I think a lot of people have been anticipating him becoming something more this season. So far I don't see it. I think he is who he is.

[NASpurs]

That last play seems like a play that Pop drew up

[ElNono]

the good news is that we might play again tomorrow, I guess...

there's just nothing but filler here for the 1st team, which is probably pretty normal, but somewhat disappointing... hopefully Bertrans can play and surprises.

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

Not sure what else to expect without the reigning MVP of the summer league; what would the Bulls have accomplished without Jordan, or the Cavs without LeBron?

[SPURt]

Ugh... what an abortion of basketball prowess

[NASpurs]

CIA Becky holding back players because of "contract issues". She'll unleash the beasts for the B2B title.

[TheGreatYacht]

Simmons - 22pts, 2reb, 3ast, 6-10fg
Stokes - 15pts, 7reb, 1blk, 1stl, 7-7fg

.... Everyone else, eh.

[r0drig0lac]

#TankForJackson

[BillMc]

We need Bertans cleared to play.
+1 Billion

[raybies]

Had opportunities. missed free throws and missed shots. we really missed Kyle, but if Bertans and Milutinov can play tomorrow or next game we play, it would give us a better chance. Definitely Bertans though.

[GSH]

The fact anybody in the FO thought he was "dominant" in the first two games in Vegas should sound the alarms, tbh...


Heh. I didn't want to be the one to say it. But I was worried that I'm having blackouts. Because I completely missed the parts where he dominated.

[Dancelot]

Not sure what else to expect without the reigning MVP of the summer league; what would the Bulls have accomplished without Jordan, or the Cavs without LeBron?
Exactly! Simmons trying to be Kobe minus Gasol (vending machine head).

[tholdren]

these guys are terrible

[SAGirl]

Capt Simmons carrying these scrubs
Needed Kyle TBH... that is what they lost. :toast

[TheGreatYacht]

Exactly! Simmons trying to be Kobe minus Gasol (vending machine head).
Kyle is more Lamar Odom tbh. But instead of a crackhead, he's fathead

[tholdren]

Simmons - 22pts, 2reb, 3ast, 6-10fg
Stokes - 15pts, 7reb, 1blk, 1stl, 7-7fg

.... Everyone else, eh.
stokes is awful. its like watching the city rec league.

[GSH]

We need Bertans cleared to play.


We need him to be healthy, and we have to hope that he will be as good as we're expecting. So far, the rest of our stash players aren't looking too good. Sort of like putting some Boone's Farm in your wine cellar to age.

[TheGreatYacht]

stokes is awful. its like watching the city rec league.
That's what I think when I watch Arci

[picnroll]

At this point I think it's safe to say 19 yo Murray in summer league is no 19 yo Tony Parker in summer league.

[SAGirl]

Last time I'm going to say it but damn it, I wish SA would have taken a flier on McCaw. Watching some of this GS game too and he's looking solid again.
Yea, I liked McCaw... he was kind of not hyped at all, but has good 3 pt shooting, and is just as long and skinny as Dijon, without being this reckless. I also liked sasaint guy: Malcolm Brogdon, and he's been solid in SL, as far as I could tell the first couple of games.

Dijon is just raw. Spurs have a lot of work to do with him, but it seems they knew that. Even in the press statement RC stated they didn't expect him to come help righ away and that he needed a lot of work. Now we clearly see why.

[Dancelot]

Kyle is more Lamar Odom tbh. But instead of a crackhead, he's fathead
:lol

[ceperez]

Why does it seem that LJC has gotten thinner and has regressed since he was last year?

[siraulo23]

Dejounte Murray was bad, again. I cant say one thing he did well this game, no positive impact at all

[tav1]

Spurs should sign Christian Wood to a make-good. He's better than all their prospect bigs and is available. Won't be for long. A team will sign him by end of summer league.

[SAGirl]

Exactly! Simmons trying to be Kobe minus Gasol (vending machine head).
:lol Things we will only see in summer league TBH. :toast

[DPG21920]

He's only 19 - it's not good to be too hard on Murray. It's only disappointing in context of SA really needing another good guard and as of now they don't have one.

But it was never fair nor smart to pin that responsibility on a 19 year old that obviously slipped in the draft due to how much of a project he is.

[ceperez]

Dejounte Murray was bad, again. I cant say one thing he did well this game, no positive impact at all

Lots of folks hyping up a 19 year old who is clearly not ready to play even in SL.

[siraulo23]

I know Simmons is working on his shot but i dont see any difference, it looks exactly the same.

Lets hope kyle anderson shoots the ball well next season and bertans become a solid rotation player or the bench is gonna be REALLY bad

[Dancelot]

Had opportunities. missed free throws and missed shots. we really missed Kyle, but if Bertans and Milutinov can play tomorrow or next game we play, it would give us a better chance. Definitely Bertans though.
Did I miss something? Is there a chance Milutinov joins the sl team? Is he in Vegas like bertans is?

[ElNono]

Needed Kyle TBH... that is what they lost. :toast

You didn't say that when Simms won us the 1st game, tbh... :hat

Then again, I'm no fan of Simms either, tbh... just overall disappointed with both him and Kyle in that they've shown basically no improvement and the clock is ticking

[tav1]

Anyone know what the asking price on Jahlil Okafor is?

[Ron Swanson]

Kyle is more Lamar Odom tbh. But instead of a crackhead, he's fathead

http://www.tmz.com/2016/07/12/lamar-odom-drunk-vomit-delta-removed-flight/

[ElNono]

He's only 19 - it's not good to be too hard on Murray. It's only disappointing in context of SA really needing another good guard and as of now they don't have one.

But it was never fair nor smart to pin that responsibility on a 19 year old that obviously slipped in the draft due to how much of a project he is.

This, I can't bag on him right now. If he still plays stupid next SL or two then that's when you worry.

[raybies]

Did I miss something? Is there a chance Milutinov joins the sl team? Is he in Vegas like bertans is?

Yes, he's in Vegas. Paul Garcia reported seeing him

[Dancelot]

Yes, he's in Vegas. Paul Garcia reported seeing him
:bobo

[ceperez]

Yea, I liked McCaw... he was kind of not hyped at all, but has good 3 pt shooting, and is just as long and skinny as Dijon, without being this reckless. I also liked sasaint guy: Malcolm Brogdon, and he's been solid in SL, as far as I could tell the first couple of games.

Dijon is just raw. Spurs have a lot of work to do with him, but it seems they knew that. Even in the press statement RC stated they didn't expect him to come help righ away and that he needed a lot of work. Now we clearly see why.

So McCaw was drafted later? I'm now really worried about the FO decision making. Let's hope Dedmon and Pau can deliver. I mean, LJC looks like a bust. Haven't seen Bertans yet.

Sigh.

[waisman]

Livio (https://www.google.co.jp/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi12Zrsre_NAhULn5QKHSSRBbAQFggnMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffr.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLivio_ Jean-Charles&usg=AFQjCNGIJ6HpgiEAqXOaVuxmskXUbqbTSw) is worst player .no BBIQ .

[siraulo23]

This, I can't bag on him right now. If he still plays stupid next SL or two then that's when you worry.

He's gonna play stupid the next couple of games, you worry when he still plays stupid next year

[SAGirl]

You didn't say that when Simms won us the 1st game, tbh... :hat

Then again, I'm no fan of Simms either, tbh... just overall disappointed with both him and Kyle in that they've shown basically no improvement and the clock is ticking
I know you are just trolling, but that play doesn't happen without that Kyle pass though.. or without Kyle help defense on Dijon that forced a TO to tie the game before that play either. You keep on hating all you want. lol You will be proven wrong.

[ElNono]

I know you are just trolling, but that play doesn't happen without that Kyle pass though.. or without Kyle help defense on Dijon that forced a TO to tie the game before that play either. You keep on hating all you want. lol You will be proven wrong.

i hope

[Cloud786]

Livio is not an NBA player. Looked like garbage out there. Crappy pick in a crappy draft.

[raybies]

I thought Murray played pretty well, decision-wise that is. He showed improvement in this area. If he would of made half of his shots everyone would be saying he played well. He just missed open shots. It happens. The fact that he attacked the rim and drew fouls was a positive as well. Last game he settled for floaters too often and even shot a couple this game. He's playing Spurs ball right now. There will be a learning curve. He's use to having the ball in his hands and creating when he's in and being a volume shooter. All his looks tonight were in the flow of the offense. First game he had twenty, he was taking it upon himself to make something happen. That is clearly not what the Spurs want from him right now, which makes sense cause you don't want to inflate his ego and have him thinking he's there already.

[Snaq O'Meal]

So McCaw was drafted later? I'm now really worried about the FO decision making. Let's hope Dedmon and Pau can deliver. I mean, LJC looks like a bust. Haven't seen Bertans yet.

Sigh.

GSW's FO had the foresight of paying around $2 million to pick him.

Maybe PATFO really couldn't do much to get him, since they have their own pile of stashed trash to sort through first.

[SAGirl]

So McCaw was drafted later? I'm now really worried about the FO decision making. Let's hope Dedmon and Pau can deliver. I mean, LJC looks like a bust. Haven't seen Bertans yet.

Sigh.
McCaw was an early second pick.. I want to say around 35-36?? GSW paid cash for the pick.
Yup have to hope for Dedmon, Pau and Bertans. I have hope in Kyle TBH. Him shooting that 3 is huge. ElNono hiting on Kyle, but him and Manu going to be like this:
:chestbump:chestbump

[waisman]

although (https://www.google.co.jp/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjbu5zdte_NAhWElJQKHQHoAvoQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Feow.alc.co.jp%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dalth ough&usg=AFQjCNGrsrpU-BhXongt7f2ObynE4bsDuw&bvm=bv.126993452,d.dGo) Forbes is small SG , I like him .

[ElNono]

McCaw was an early second pick.. I want to say around 35-36?? GSW paid cash for the pick.
Yup have to hope for Dedmon, Pau and Bertans. I have hope in Kyle TBH. Him shooting that 3 is huge. ElNono hiting on Kyle, but him and Manu going to be like this:
:chestbump:chestbump

Actually, I expect incessant bitching from fatheadfan on how "he can't play with Manu", and "Manu and Kyle are not a good fit", which is mostly what I heard last season, and why I was hoping to see more off-the-ball play from Kyle.

But I haven't seen it. Still hoping to be surprised.

[Hoops Czar]

Are the Spurs going to just gift LJC a roster spot? :lol

[Snaq O'Meal]

Yea, I liked McCaw... he was kind of not hyped at all, but has good 3 pt shooting, and is just as long and skinny as Dijon, without being this reckless. I also liked sasaint (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=12242) guy: Malcolm Brogdon, and he's been solid in SL, as far as I could tell the first couple of games.

Dijon is just raw. Spurs have a lot of work to do with him, but it seems they knew that. Even in the press statement RC stated they didn't expect him to come help righ away and that he needed a lot of work. Now we clearly see why.

Brogdon would've contributed almost immediately. The Spurs don't need someone flashy at point guard. Just a guy who has high BBIQ, can get the ball to our new Big 3 (Kawhi, LMA and Gasol), and can defend 3 or 4 positions without being victimised by GSW's attack on mismatches.

[GSH]

The Long and Short Of It: You can see Stokes' good points, but also see the problems his lack of height brings.
Thoughts on tonight's SL game:


Not so fast: Dejounte Murray isn't going to pull down 9 boards on a regular basis, and Bryn Forbes isn't going to hit every 3 he looks at. Be careful of snap judgments.

Old School: Erazem Lorbek. I wish I had seen him play when he was at Michigan State. In the 70's?

Good Things Don't Come in 3's: Livio Jean Charles. Never trust a player with three first names. Or a 6'9" player with less than 3 RPG.

The Future Looks Bright: Dejaounte Murray. 19 year-old players who are NBA-ready go in the lottery. But Austin is really nice in the Fall.

Who?: Olivier Hanlan.

Same As It Ever Was: CJ Williams hits 3-pointers... except when he doesn't. His 33% didn't cut the mustard in Dijon last year. It won't this year either.

Cummings and Goings: Will Cummings won't get enough minutes in SL to even see if he can get better. Don't give up on the dream.

Deja Vu: Ryan Arcidiacono. Seems like he had a little more attitude last season. And his name was Jimmer.

[SAGirl]

Brogdon would've contributed almost immediately. The Spurs don't need someone flashy at point guard. Just a guy who has high BBIQ, can get the ball to our new Big 3 (Kawhi, LMA and Gasol), and can defend 3 or 4 positions without being victimised by GSW's attack on mismatches.
Yup I agree. I liked Brogdon a lot. He was also older and right in the window of our youngest guys. Apparently FO went entirely the other way with an upside pick. I mean we can clearly see Dijon has incredible quick first step and an aggressive mentality. Apparently that is what they wanted. They were looking for "star potential". Right now it is very much unrealized... but they can hopefully help the guy realize it. As others have said Dijon is too young. I am going to let Spurs work their magic and stay hopeful for him.
Reality is that guard play is important in the league and we don't have quickness. Simmons is the best athlete. He's going to be 27 to start the season and a FA. I am not even sure if the FO even visualizes committing to him past this season. I guess he's going to have to show up in the season and earn a contract but I guess they were definitely looking for a slasher if we pay attention to the profile.

[ElNono]

Deja Vu: Ryan Arcidiacono. Seems like he had a little more attitude last season. And his name was Jimmer.

Actually, he strikes me as a hard worker, not somebody full of himself. I know there's a million problems with him, starting with his height, but I think he's one of the few players you can rescue from this team, to develop and see if there's something more there.

[tav1]

"Popovich could coach a masterpiece season and Kawhi could win the MVP"...this is what I keep telling myself.

Or it could be a long season. Spurs will still win 50, but point guard depth and front court depth is scary. Fragile on the wing too. Simmons is what he is. A Manu or Green or Parker injury will hurt more than usual this year.

[SAGirl]

Actually, I expect incessant bitching from fatheadfan on how "he can't play with Manu", and "Manu and Kyle are not a good fit", which is mostly what I heard last season, and why I was hoping to see more off-the-ball play from Kyle.

But I haven't seen it. Still hoping to be surprised.
I don't think that will be the case... wow you are incredibly negative!
bc fathead is shooting the 3. Part of the reason he was a poor off the ball player is that he was not a shooter and the Spurs drafted him knowing that. Unfortunately he didn't improve on that shot quick enough b4 Spurs needed minutes from him, but him shooting from 3 opens up the possibilities of what he can do. The other thing is that I think he was meant to play as a stretch 4 anyways, which the Spurs need him to do now. I think Manu and Kyle were starting to play well together when Kyle was a 4 bc Tim got the bad knee... but then Manu got the nutcracked and that was that. I thought when Manu got back Pop went to too much experimenting with K.Martin who was trash and frankly didn't get on guys who were really going to play in the rotation enough, like Boris, who was allowed to coast the last 2 months of the season... I am not going to cast shadow on the possible fit or bad fit bc Kyle plays very well with JSimms TBH.. you are just Mr. glass if half empty :downspin::lol

[GSH]

Actually, he strikes me as a hard worker, not somebody full of himself. I know there's a million problems with him, starting with his height, but I think he's one of the few players you can rescue from this team, to develop and see if there's something more there.


Deja Vu: Ryan Arcidiacono. Seems like he had a little more attitude last season. And his name was Jimmer.


Yeah, I was saying he doesn't have Jimmer's attitude. But I don't see him as being more talented than Jimmer. I wouldn't mind seeing him get a chance to develop in Austin. But I don't see any possibility that he makes the Spurs' roster this year. Just setting expectations.

[apalisoc_9]

Archiwhote dude is not NBA player but he's got a decent character. He plays hard in all positions and you can tell he's always trying to do things within the game plan.

I watched him in college and he had the same attitude.

Jinmer is a scrub who thinks he deserves touches.

[sasaint]

Actually, he strikes me as a hard worker, not somebody full of himself. I know there's a million problems with him, starting with his height, but I think he's one of the few players you can rescue from this team, to develop and see if there's something more there.

Yeah, I really don't see the comparison with Jimmer at all. Jimmer was a shooter. Arci is a pass-first PG who hustles hard - especially on D. But I don't see his making the Spurs. I expect him to have a good/great career in Europe.

[objective]

LJC isn't fit to wear mahinmi's #.

[elemento]

McCaw was an early second pick.. I want to say around 35-36?? GSW paid cash for the pick.
Yup have to hope for Dedmon, Pau and Bertans. I have hope in Kyle TBH. Him shooting that 3 is huge. ElNono (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8054) hiting on Kyle, but him and Manu going to be like this:
:chestbump:chestbump

My boy Pat :cry

Gotta give some time to Murray though. They knew he was raw as hell when they got him. Boy is only 19 y/o. Still has a long way to go.

[Chinook]

God, ESPN 3 is the suckiest suck that ever sucked. I'll have to wait until someone puts the torrent up to watch the game, I guess.

[GSH]

Archiwhote dude is not NBA player but he's got a decent character. He plays hard in all positions and you can tell he's always trying to do things within the game plan.

I watched him in college and he had the same attitude.

Jinmer is a scrub who thinks he deserves touches.


Yeah. Well. They're both white. Where is Harlem when I need him?


No, look, I like the kid, and I like his hustle. But you know that there's no way he's going to be running the point for the Spurs this season, even in garbage time. People will see him do some good things here in SL, and fall in love with him. And they'll just get all upset when he doesn't make the team.

Be honest. If you're concerned about winning the most games this season, would you really rather have him as a third PG or, say, Andre Miller again? I think Miller, with his experience, would hold down the fort better for short stretches. Arci is a good kid, who works hard. But he's not ready for prime time yet.




Yeah, I really don't see the comparison with Jimmer at all. Jimmer was a shooter. Arci is a pass-first PG who hustles hard - especially on D. But I don't see his making the Spurs. I expect him to have a good/great career in Europe.

OMG. I was trying to lighten the mood on an pretty dismal SL game. They're both white PG's trying to catch on to the tail end of an NBA roster. Isn't that enough. I get that he doesn't have the Jimmer attitude. Really. I do.

[ElNono]

I don't think that will be the case... wow you are incredibly negative!
bc fathead is shooting the 3. Part of the reason he was a poor off the ball player is that he was not a shooter and the Spurs drafted him knowing that. Unfortunately he didn't improve on that shot quick enough b4 Spurs needed minutes from him, but him shooting from 3 opens up the possibilities of what he can do. The other thing is that I think he was meant to play as a stretch 4 anyways, which the Spurs need him to do now. I think Manu and Kyle were starting to play well together when Kyle was a 4 bc Tim got the bad knee... but then Manu got the nutcracked and that was that. I thought when Manu got back Pop went to too much experimenting with K.Martin who was trash and frankly didn't get on guys who were really going to play in the rotation enough, like Boris, who was allowed to coast the last 2 months of the season... I am not going to cast shadow on the possible fit or bad fit bc Kyle plays very well with JSimms TBH.. you are just Mr. glass if half empty :downspin::lol

I like to think I'm realistic and honest with how I feel about him, despite what anybody else thinks. I just don't see a 'jewel' there, so I have to adjust my expectations accordingly. I want him to do well, but, I just don't like what I've seen from him. I'm far from declaring him a "bust" or anything like that. But the clock is ticking for him more than any other rook, and if he's going to show what niche he can excel at to hold on to this team (and league), it's gonna have to be soon.

[Strategic]

Not able to watch any summer play, hoping y'all can find a keeper.

[SnakeBoy]

Nice words on KA from Becky....

“To me, he was the best player in summer league,” Spurs summer coach Becky Hammon said. “When you talk about the most all-around player, he was the best. That’s saying a lot. His leadership, his communicating — he was great for us. There’s really nowhere left for him to go here.”


Make or Break season for SloMo now that he has officially outgrown the SL & DL.

[Chinook]

I like to think I'm realistic and honest with how I feel about him, despite what anybody else thinks. I just don't see a 'jewel' there, so I have to adjust my expectations accordingly. I want him to do well, but, I just don't like what I've seen from him. I'm far from declaring him a "bust" or anything like that. But the clock is ticking for him more than any other rook, and if he's going to show what niche he can excel at to hold on to this team (and league), it's gonna have to be soon.

He literally only had to show he could shoot the three, which even you think he did. He didn't have to show he could play off the ball, because he's likely not going to play off the ball as much as he did last year. As a four, he'll probably be handling the ball quite a bit, and when he's not, he'll just be spotting up. If there's anything to take away, it's that he looks like he can shoot a lot better now, so that works out.

You can't simultaneously say that Manu needs help while also assuming he's going to dominate the ball again. Those two things just don't go together. It's entirely possible that they let Anderson and/or Simmons be prominent ball-handlers while Manu focuses on spotting up and secondary creation. He's too old and will possibly be too tired to try to build a bench around him again.

[apalisoc_9]

If Slomo can develop into a nice rotation player instead lf being a scrub the spurs should be able to compete against GSW.

[td4mvp2k]

Nice words on KA from Becky....

“To me, he was the best player in summer league,” Spurs summer coach Becky Hammon said. “When you talk about the most all-around player, he was the best. That’s saying a lot. His leadership, his communicating — he was great for us. There’s really nowhere left for him to go here.”


Make or Break season for SloMo now that he has officially outgrown the SL & DL.
He needs to take that next step this yr and fill in for bobo

[bigfan]

Got to see this on the tube tonight, ughhhh.... Man it was ugly.

[DPG21920]

The bench is going to be a damn roller coaster this season.

The main bench crew: Mills/Manu/Simmons/Kyle/Dedmon - hope the can get it done; need a major bounce back year from Patty and have to hope Simmons/Kyle really step up.

Can't expect anything from LJC realistically nor Murray. Bertans is the wild card that "could" contribute. Spurs need a trade for a legit 6th man (guard) badly. Not sure they will want to pull that trigger this year even if they could.

[cd98]

Spurs are running in place. The starters will be enough to win 45-50 games, but our young bench guys don't look like contributors other than maybe Anderson or maybe Simmons, but they don't look like they will get over GSW hump and the fresh young talent has underwhelmed if one is counting on a contribution this year.

[offset formation]

Nice words on KA from Becky....

“To me, he was the best player in summer league,” Spurs summer coach Becky Hammon said. “When you talk about the most all-around player, he was the best. That’s saying a lot. His leadership, his communicating — he was great for us. There’s really nowhere left for him to go here.”


Make or Break season for SloMo now that he has officially outgrown the SL & DL.

Yeah, I liked that quote too.

Waiting on the contingent like dabom and apo to show their faces in light of that comment. Impatient and unknowing blowhards....

[offset formation]

If Slomo can develop into a nice rotation player instead lf being a scrub the spurs should be able to compete against GSW.

Lol @ scrub. 2nd year player with 1st year minutes.

[DPG21920]

If Slomo can develop into a nice rotation player instead lf being a scrub the spurs should be able to compete against GSW.

Going from ST admin to legit rotation player seems like a stretch

- Lefty

[offset formation]

The bench is going to be a damn roller coaster this season.

The main bench crew: Mills/Manu/Simmons/Kyle/Dedmon - hope the can get it done; need a major bounce back year from Patty and have to hope Simmons/Kyle really step up.

Can't expect anything from LJC realistically nor Murray. Bertans is the wild card that "could" contribute. Spurs need a trade for a legit 6th man (guard) badly. Not sure they will want to pull that trigger this year even if they could.

Most teams don't even have a good second unit. We do. And perhaps Bertans works his way into there too. And what does a deeper bench mean anyways when Pop shuts it down to 8 or 9 when we have the best bench in years anyway this year??

[Kawhitstorm]

Archiwhote dude is not NBA player but he's got a decent character. He plays hard in all positions and you can tell he's always trying to do things within the game plan.

I watched him in college and he had the same attitude..

Dude was the Delly of the NCAA.:lol

[DPG21920]

Most teams don't even have a good second unit. We do. And perhaps Bertans works his way into there too. And what does a deeper bench mean anyways when Pop shuts it down to 8 or 9 when we have the best bench in years anyway this year??

If Spurs fans don't understand the importance of having a good bench, I don't know what I can say TBH...

Plenty of teams have solid second units, at least players 6-8. Spurs have the POTENTIAL for a good second unit but it's far from given.

I'm ok with that - I'm not complaining. It is what it is at this point. But Spurs have maybe a bottom 10 guard rotation in the NBA with TP/Mills/Simmons/Manu.

[HankChinaski]

I am sticking to my initial comments about waiting till training camp and Early January late December to truly evaluate the Spurs roster.

Summer League is nice to watch because you get to see what last season's players worked on and what the coaching staff is going to harp and grind into the player's ears to work on going into training camp.

[Chinook]

The bench is going to be a damn roller coaster this season.

The main bench crew: Mills/Manu/Simmons/Kyle/Dedmon - hope the can get it done; need a major bounce back year from Patty and have to hope Simmons/Kyle really step up.

Can't expect anything from LJC realistically nor Murray. Bertans is the wild card that "could" contribute. Spurs need a trade for a legit 6th man (guard) badly. Not sure they will want to pull that trigger this year even if they could.

I disagree that the Spurs need a sixth man. That will be nominally Manu's role with Anderson actually getting that level of minutes. He did a good job of showing what he'd look like in that role. Having him come in for Green with Manu coming in for Gasol and Simmons/Bertans coming in for Kawhi makes the most sense. I wouldn't be against upgrading Mills. But I really don't want to see them burn assets to do it if that player is going to struggle playing with Manu.

[offset formation]

If Spurs fans don't understand the importance of having a good bench, I don't know what I can say TBH...

Plenty of teams have solid second units, at least players 6-8. Spurs have the POTENTIAL for a good second unit but it's far from given.

I'm ok with that - I'm not complaining. It is what it is at this point. But Spurs have maybe a bottom 10 guard rotation in the NBA with TP/Mills/Simmons/Manu.

Of course a deep bench is beneficial.

I'm stating Spurs will have a solid rotation on the second unit and something that PATFO stitch together on the third, which rarely plays as a full unit anyways.

So, I'm saying that our top two units are basically what it was last year, minus Duncan, Diaw, and West.

And there was plenty of bitching about them, where Dedmon should replace what they were lacking. And like you said, Bertans may be a nice surprise.

And I completely agree our guard play will be our Achilles.

[TrainOfThought5]

We need him to be healthy, and we have to hope that he will be as good as we're expecting. So far, the rest of our stash players aren't looking too good. Sort of like putting some Boone's Farm in your wine cellar to age.

AM I THE ONLY PERSON THAT FOUND THIS HILARIOUS?!

[ElNono]

He literally only had to show he could shoot the three, which even you think he did. He didn't have to show he could play off the ball, because he's likely not going to play off the ball as much as he did last year. As a four, he'll probably be handling the ball quite a bit, and when he's not, he'll just be spotting up. If there's anything to take away, it's that he looks like he can shoot a lot better now, so that works out.

I did? Pretty sure I said he had a good shooting night after the first game in Utah, nothing more nothing less. I'd love him to be a guy that can just sit in a corner and knock them down, but that's not the Kyle I've seen this SL. I've seen a guy that just likes to have the rock a lot, which is no different from what I've seen last SL. If he can shoot better without needed to hoard the ball, sure, I'll definitely take it. But I also wanted to see him cutting, and playing off the ball, but I didn't. So I can't tell you he didn't improve on that, but I can't tell you he did either. I wish I could.


You can't simultaneously say that Manu needs help while also assuming he's going to dominate the ball again. Those two things just don't go together. It's entirely possible that they let Anderson and/or Simmons be prominent ball-handlers while Manu focuses on spotting up and secondary creation. He's too old and will possibly be too tired to try to build a bench around him again.

Why not? I don't know what Pop has planned for the bench, but I'm actually pretty sure Manu will be the de-facto backup PG (even if Patty plays the cameo here or there). That's because that's where he's more effective, at this point in time. So if I had to guess, I would say we'll see a lot of pick and roll action. Or if they want to go flex or summertime, and the ball moving, maybe some of that. Manu isn't that ball dominant anyways, he's more of an execution guy: we're running this play, you stay here, you go there, and we run this. For that to work you need guys that play off the ball. Set picks, know when to rotate, and do all that without necessarily getting a touch on the ball. Even if they end up taking the last shot. That's what I didn't see either from Kyle or Simms, but maybe they'll have it when the season comes around.

All that said, I think Pop will probably give Kyle some posting up opportunities, at least at the beginning, but I don't think he can really make that his niche at the NBA level. I think where he could make an impact is as a passing big off the block. But it's unfair to compare to Boris, Boris is an amazing passer.

[DPG21920]

I disagree that the Spurs need a sixth man. That will be nominally Manu's role with Anderson actually getting that level of minutes. He did a good job of showing what he'd look like in that role. Having him come in for Green with Manu coming in for Gasol and Simmons/Bertans coming in for Kawhi makes the most sense. I wouldn't be against upgrading Mills. But I really don't want to see them burn assets to do it if that player is going to struggle playing with Manu.

That is a lot on Manu - you think he's capable of sustaining a top bench for an entire season still? I mean, Pop can stagger DG/Kawhi to help with some bench flaws, but Mills/Manu/Simmons/Kyle/Dedmon has a lot of question marks. It's definitely has potential but it will rely on Mills/Manu/Simmons/Kyle really being able to hit shots at a reasonable rate.

I think Mills should be the odd man out, with Manu off the ball and someone that can truly break people down off the dribble and score would help.

Even someone that is not a good fit IMO. Spurs need guard talent in a major way.

Even someone like a Tyreke Evans who is not a good fit I would think would be huge. I see what you are saying and I agree that I would not want SA to give up assets unless it was a young proven player; but that just means it's even less likely.

I guess I just don't think SA should pass up on a good opportunity unless Anderson gets off to a roaring start.

[rastaspur]

Dejounte was my guy. wondering if this kid is going to have delusions of grandeur prancing in his head everytime he hits the court. He says the right things off the court and seems to be likeable. But his game on the court is telling a different story.

Brogdon and patrick mccaw seem like safer bets in this brief time since the draft.

[SAGirl]

I like to think I'm realistic and honest with how I feel about him, despite what anybody else thinks. I just don't see a 'jewel' there, so I have to adjust my expectations accordingly. I want him to do well, but, I just don't like what I've seen from him. I'm far from declaring him a "bust" or anything like that. But the clock is ticking for him more than any other rook, and if he's going to show what niche he can excel at to hold on to this team (and league), it's gonna have to be soon.
He will show up this season and be aware, 23 years old is far from a guy's prime.. but he will be much better offensively which we will need bc from my understanding the other bench big is not much of an offensive weapon. But honestly I feel obnoxious right now, everyone is entitled to their opinion, so cheers. :toast

[LakerHater]

753059161550704640

[ElNono]

The bench is going to be a damn roller coaster this season.

The main bench crew: Mills/Manu/Simmons/Kyle/Dedmon - hope the can get it done; need a major bounce back year from Patty and have to hope Simmons/Kyle really step up.

Can't expect anything from LJC realistically nor Murray. Bertans is the wild card that "could" contribute. Spurs need a trade for a legit 6th man (guard) badly. Not sure they will want to pull that trigger this year even if they could.

Until I see Bertrans and some of Dedmon, I can't even tell you what they're going to run. If Dedmon turns out to be a good P&R big, maybe there's something there. Or maybe if Kyle did improve his shooting, some pick and pop there.

Unfortunately, I don't see a dominant mismatch in the post right now (like we had with Boris when Boris was interested) that opened up the perimeter shot for Patty. I suppose Pop is going to try Simmons as the bull in the china shop for penetration, but you wouldn't be the only one being leery about it.

Realistically, you don't need a lot against 90% of the league, tbh... but I agree with you that against the better teams you do need at least a passable unit.

[ElNono]

If we could trade Patty for an actual penetrator kind of guy (what Murray promises to be in 3 years), I would definitely do it. I think that's our biggest flaw right now. Not just on the bench either, but the starters are too talented and can probably cover that deficit.

[apalisoc_9]

Dude was the Delly of the NCAA.:lol

Didnt evem think of that comparison tbh. :lol

[ElNono]

Even someone like a Tyreke Evans who is not a good fit I would think would be huge.

I call him Cancereke Evans, but completely agree with you on this one.

[ElNono]

Dejounte was my guy. wondering if this kid is going to have delusions of grandeur prancing in his head everytime he hits the court. He says the right things off the court and seems to be likeable. But his game on the court is telling a different story.

Brogdon and patrick mccaw seem like safer bets in this brief time since the draft.

He's just young

[DPG21920]

Ya - I'm not pretending I know what style the bench will play. I'm just looking at it from a talent perspective at the moment.

Mills - shot has fallen off. not a good creator. gives effort on defense but not great

Manu - older and 3PT shot escapes him. can't quite get to the rim like he used to. Great instincts on defense but not elite any more there (obviously).

Simmons - questions on defense. Very good athlete who has shown ability to drive. Good passer but handles and to's limit him. Solid enough 3PT shot last year, but that the norm?

Kyle - questionable 3PT shot.

See the theme? Spurs need these guys to shoot the 3 ball. I've been very positive about the off season overall; nothing has changed for me. But that doesn't mean that the bench is not a big question mark. That was always going to be the case going with younger and less experienced players though. It's a necessary evil right now and the right move.

[SAGirl]

Nice words on KA from Becky....

“To me, he was the best player in summer league,” Spurs summer coach Becky Hammon said. “When you talk about the most all-around player, he was the best. That’s saying a lot. His leadership, his communicating — he was great for us. There’s really nowhere left for him to go here.”


Make or Break season for SloMo now that he has officially outgrown the SL & DL.
:toast Yup. Here's a cheer to hope for a good season.

Bodes well for the Spurs: Kyle at 17, his coach said: "as an all around basketball player, who is focusing on team, there is no better player in the country."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmcIhZeDkjg
scroll to min 1:34 or so.
In terms of development, Kyle is right where he should be if Becky is practically saying the same thing of him in a tournament with kids around his age/generation. What's left for him is to do that in the NBA and he wasn't quite there bc he needed to work in getting stronger, shooting better, and being more aggressive.

[apalisoc_9]

Seriously, Just get raymond Felton.

That fatass has a couple of good playoff games ready to be used next year.

[GSH]

That is a lot on Manu - you think he's capable of sustaining a top bench for an entire season still?


He's averaged 58 games for the last five years or so. Last year he played exactly 58 games. It's a pretty good bet that he will be available for about that many this year. That leaves 24 games that they better have some way of covering. I'm not knocking him, it's just numbers and minutes, and the mileage on his body.

Pop tightens his rotations in the playoffs, but those bench guys should be able to save a lot of wear and tear on the starters through the regular season. And you always need to have a couple of guys who can step up to the second unit, in case of injuries. I'm not seeing it in SL so far. And I don't think it's fair or realistic to expect 75 games out of Manu. Right now I'm looking back fondly on Kevin Martin, Andre Miller, Ray McCallum, and Rasual Butler. And obviously it would be nice to have someone better than those guys. 24 games is a lot to be without your bench leader.

[apalisoc_9]

:toast Yup. Here's a cheer to hope for a good season.

Bodes well for the Spurs: Kyle at 17, his coach said: "as an all around basketball player, who is focusing on team, there is no better player in the country."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmcIhZeDkjg
scroll to min 1:34 or so.
In terms of development, Kyle is right where he should be if Becky is practically saying the same thing of him in a tournament with kids around his age/generation. What's left for him is to do that in the NBA and he wasn't quite there bc he needed to work in getting stronger, shooting better, and being more aggressive.

No one cares

[SAGirl]

He literally only had to show he could shoot the three, which even you think he did. He didn't have to show he could play off the ball, because he's likely not going to play off the ball as much as he did last year. As a four, he'll probably be handling the ball quite a bit, and when he's not, he'll just be spotting up. If there's anything to take away, it's that he looks like he can shoot a lot better now, so that works out.

You can't simultaneously say that Manu needs help while also assuming he's going to dominate the ball again. Those two things just don't go together. It's entirely possible that they let Anderson and/or Simmons be prominent ball-handlers while Manu focuses on spotting up and secondary creation. He's too old and will possibly be too tired to try to build a bench around him again.
This is exactly what I see, even with Simmons TBH. I think Manu will be more the roleplayer in this scenario and defer. He's there to help, provide a stabilizing vet presence, etc... It's not like he will be irrelevant, but certainly there will be more placed on someone else's shoulder. Manu was spotting up off the ball last season IMO already, and when Kawhi played with the bench, it was Kawhi's time. Anderson and Simmons coming of age is actually helping Kawhi's team to have a bench and not have to do everything himself in reality.

[raybies]

DPG21920 You are right on the money about the bench. I thought the same. I think initially you have Manu, Simmons, and Kyle all give a hand at facilitating and mostly between Kyle and Jon. Manu is the last resort cause you ideally want to keep him fresh and don't want to risk injury. I think if Kyle breaks out then you build around him and Manu with shooters like Bertans, especially if Jon isn't hitting his threes and is turning the ball over. So many variables here.

My bench 5 I would like to see is; Patty,Manu,Bertans,Anderson, and Dedmon. I think it gives the Spurs the most options and would be better balanced with specialties and roles.

[rastaspur]

He has a laundry list of things he has to improve upon.

(1) marlon wayans should really make a conscious effort to quit dribbling so high.
(2) quit playing basically standing up. Doesnt mix well with that high dribbling. Gonna get pickpocketed like a drunk tourist in rome or amsterdam
(3) foot work on defense is ridiculously bad. He needs a fundamental bootcamp. Drill that shit into his head. Haze him if you must. Stands up alot on defense too. Id that sheere laziness, wanting to look cool or what but thats gotta be corrected. Defensive stance, the concept of peoper rotations when a defense is compromised. Learn assignments. Its basic sense.

(3) all flash and no substance/net positive impact.

(4) shooting mechanics and form and squaring up to the target. No one shot seems consistent. Hes the kind of player who makes a shot more difficult by wanting to putvsome swag on it. Theres more beauty in looking like a hornaceck or stockton and looking boring while knocking down shot after shot. Break him down completely and rebuild the shot from scratch. Its fifty shades of fail. Chip needs to be his shadow. Could take 2 years to fix it and make it a ninliability. Its real bad.

So many other things but im running out of steam and tired up typing

[raybies]

He has a laundry list of things he has to improve upon.

(1) marlon wayans should really make a conscious effort to quit dribbling so high.
(2) quit playing basically standing up. Doesnt mix well with that high dribbling. Gonna get pickpocketed like a drunk tourist in rome or amsterdam
(3) foot work on defense is ridiculously bad. He needs a fundamental bootcamp. Drill that shit into his head. Haze him if you must. Stands up alot on defense too. Id that sheere laziness, wanting to look cool or what but thats gotta be corrected. Defensive stance, the concept of peoper rotations when a defense is compromised. Learn assignments. Its basic sense.

(3) all flash and no substance/net positive impact.

(4) shooting mechanics and form and squaring up to the target. No one shot seems consistent. Hes the kind of player who makes a shot more difficult by wanting to putvsome swag on it. Theres more beauty in looking like a hornaceck or stockton and looking boring while knocking down shot after shot. Break him down completely and rebuild the shot from scratch. Its fifty shades of fail. Chip needs to be his shadow. Could take 2 years to fix it and make it a ninliability. Its real bad.

So many other things but im running out of steam and tired up typing

:pop: Hey Murray, be yourself and play your game, but in the process of changing everything.

[ElNono]

I'm more concerned with what we can build around that talent in the bench, than with the talent itself. That's because there's no standout talent. Back in '13 and '14, we had a killer bench with Patty, Manu, Belli, Boris... and all of them looked good, but it was really the synergy between the players and their mutual understanding that really brought it all together. Beli was new, Boris just got there, Patty too. It was an actual unit that produced more than just the single talents combined.

We haven't had that the last couple of seasons, for whatever reason. But that's something this team is going to have to work on. And for that to work, every player needs to feel comfortable and important, even if they're not playing exactly how they like to play.

[DPG21920]

With Murray doing the expected in SL so far & not seeing Bertans and never being high on LJC since his injury it just dampens the bench potential for me.

I mean, I knew where SA stood going into SL but was hoping (beyond reason) for something special to happen. I'm at the point where I would not be shocked if SA had a great bench or if the bench really struggled. Point was it's something to watch - I guess saying they need a trade for a legit 6th man was premature; I would like that for the perfect player no matter what, but there is definitely merit to waiting and seeing what you have because there is enough potential at the moment.

[Kawhitstorm]

Seriously, Just get raymond Felton.

That fatass has a couple of good playoff games ready to be used next year.

Not sure why the Mavs didn't re-sign him for the MLE or something, Deron is good to miss about 25 games next season.:lol

Actually, he played well under D'Antoni in New York (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2011.html) so I won't be surprised if they pick him up as Ty Lawson's replacement.

[ElNono]

With Murray doing the expected in SL so far & not seeing Bertans and never being high on LJC since his injury it just dampens the bench potential for me.

I mean, I knew where SA stood going into SL but was hoping (beyond reason) for something special to happen. I'm at the point where I would not be shocked if SA had a great bench or if the bench really struggled. Point was it's something to watch - I guess saying they need a trade for a legit 6th man was premature; I would like that for the perfect player no matter what, but there is definitely merit to waiting and seeing what you have because there is enough potential at the moment.

The Spurs are aware too, tbh, that's why they traded for KMart mid-season. I expect somewhat the same this season. They're going to take a look, see if something comes together, or they're just going to start looking elsewhere mid-season and see what they can get.

[DPG21920]

I'm more concerned with what we can build around that talent in the bench, than with the talent itself. That's because there's no standout talent. Back in '13 and '14, we had a killer bench with Patty, Manu, Belli, Boris... and all of them looked good, but it was really the synergy between the players and their mutual understanding that really brought it all together. Beli was new, Boris just got there, Patty too. It was an actual unit that produced more than just the single talents combined.

We haven't had that the last couple of seasons, for whatever reason. But that's something this team is going to have to work on. And for that to work, every player needs to feel comfortable and important, even if they're not playing exactly how they like to play.

This is a good point and where I actually think Kyle/Simmons can develop chemistry. Unfortunately with Manu's inevitable decline (he was still good though) the bench doesn't have enough "talent" it seems. That's why I was saying the Tyreke thing (as an example). Spurs need talent. Having a bench mob by committee is really tough without having a lot of talent.

While Manu is still good, he's older. Mills is off. Simmons/Kyle are worth the investment but are they that "talented"? But this unit has potential, but the flip-side of potential is downside. Again, it's not a bad thing, just something to watch.

[Chinook]

I did? Pretty sure I said he had a good shooting night after the first game in Utah, nothing more nothing less.

Well, it should have been more. Dude shot 42 percent from three this summer, including three nights of 50 percent or better and averaging almost four attempts a game. I don't know how much more he would have to shoot to meet your standards.


I'd love him to be a guy that can just sit in a corner and knock them down

I know you would. But that's just a horrible idea. No one does that anymore. And Anderson is arguably the best player in the second unit now. He's not going to sit there all day. He needs to go from being a liability spotting up to a threat, and he looks to be well on his way.


I've seen a guy that just likes to have the rock a lot, which is no different from what I've seen last SL

That's never going to change. And it shouldn't. First, because the best player in summer league ALWAYS dominates the ball. And second, because he's going to have to have the ball in his hands for the bench to work ... much more so than Manu will need to. Manu might be the heart and engine of the bench, but Anderson, especially at the four, is the fulcrum.


If he can shoot better without needed to hoard the ball, sure, I'll definitely take it. But I also wanted to see him cutting, and playing off the ball, but I didn't.

Anderson's not a cutter. It's just not his game. He's gangling and slow-footed. It's very hard to sneak into the paint. He's also a pop-man rather than a roll-man, so even him playing off the ball isn't going to result in cuts.


Why not? I don't know what Pop has planned for the bench, but I'm actually pretty sure Manu will be the de-facto backup PG (even if Patty plays the cameo here or there).

I think that's going to be the case a lot less than before. Manu's not going to run the show with two other ball-handlers next to him. It just doesn't make a ton of sense, especially not as the overwhelmingly prominent option.


That's because that's where he's more effective, at this point in time.

It's not about what's best for him anymore. It's about what's best for the bench, and that doesn't always align with Manu like it used to. The Spurs have other players who need to be given room to run next to him, which wasn't the case even two years ago. You don't hold them back to keep trying to get blood from a pile of rubble that used to be a stone.


I would say we'll see a lot of pick and roll action.

I agree. It just isn't going to always be the 2/5 PnR. In fact, I think it will be a ton of 4/5 PnR and 3/4 PnP along with even some 2/4 PnP.


Manu isn't that ball dominant anyways

I mean, if you're not going to be realistic about this, I don't know what to tell you. His USG% is much higher than that of guys like Rondo and CP3, and it's right in line with Parker's. He absolutely dominates the ball, and that's why guys like Hill and Joseph play better without him. Obviously, when Manu was better, it made sense. But that's less the case now.


For that to work you need guys that play off the ball. Set picks, know when to rotate, and do all that without necessarily getting a touch on the ball. Even if they end up taking the last shot. That's what I didn't see either from Kyle or Simms, but maybe they'll have it when the season comes around.

That's going to have to be Manu this year as much as it will the other guys. He's far from the only guy who can run an offense, and if he needs a whole bunch of off-ball guys to do it, he's not necessarily the best, either.


All that said, I think Pop will probably give Kyle some posting up opportunities, at least at the beginning, but I don't think he can really make that his niche at the NBA level.

Anderson is a high-post player, and that's where he got his touches in the SL. As of right now, he's really the only guy to plays in that position for the Spurs, but it's where guys like Lebron and Gay like to make their money. Especially as a PF, I expect Pop to keep him out there when he can make things happen off the dribble rather than trying to put him on the block against bigger guys.

[ElNono]

This is a good point and where I actually think Kyle/Simmons can develop chemistry. Unfortunately with Manu's inevitable decline (he was still good though) the bench doesn't have enough "talent" it seems. That's why I was saying the Tyreke thing (as an example). Spurs need talent. Having a bench mob by committee is really tough without having a lot of talent.

While Manu is still good, he's older. Mills is off. Simmons/Kyle are worth the investment but are they that "talented"? But this unit has potential, but the flip-side of potential is downside. Again, it's not a bad thing, just something to watch.

What I don't see in this group at the moment is versatility, and that's why I agreed with your mention about a penetrator (I wouldn't call it a 6th man, but a guy that's more established than Simmons doing that).

That older bench I mentioned had a Boris that could post up and be a treat enough that opened up shots for Patty and Manu. Beli thrived with cuts, playing off the ball and sometimes hitting from outside. Tiago could play pick and roll and also cut under the basket. It evolved into a tough group to guard (even though we really didn't have a penetrator either). They were more than just the sum of their talents, and they were smart players that knew what they were running.

And that's really what I want to see from Simms and Kyle. More execution type of stuff. Not one on one (which I think it's a disadvantage for both right now), but being able to run stuff that play to their strengths. I felt like the last couple of seasons we didn't know what we were running half the time, the other half, it was broken plays. It just didn't come together. Hoping for better this season.

[sasaint]

Excellent, dispassionate analysis, Chinook. :toast

[Chinook]

This is a good point and where I actually think Kyle/Simmons can develop chemistry. Unfortunately with Manu's inevitable decline (he was still good though) the bench doesn't have enough "talent" it seems. That's why I was saying the Tyreke thing (as an example). Spurs need talent. Having a bench mob by committee is really tough without having a lot of talent.

While Manu is still good, he's older. Mills is off. Simmons/Kyle are worth the investment but are they that "talented"? But this unit has potential, but the flip-side of potential is downside. Again, it's not a bad thing, just something to watch.

If you ask me the best bench the Spurs have had in recent memory was Neal/Manu/Jack/Bonner/Splitter. I don't think any of those guys have great chemistry except Manu and Tiago. That was definitely a one-in-four-out offense, and it really seems to be the case here. Chemistry is important, but that's going to have to be developed anyway. Right now, Anderson and Simmons have it, and Manu and Mills have it. With another year under their belts, I think those four will have it soon. Now, they just have to get Dedmon in on the fun, and a roll-man, oop-catcher should fit in well with Manu's feeds and Anderson's lobs. Ideally, having an elite-shooting forward like Bertans in for Simmons. Then you could roll out Orlando's Van Gundy offense with Dedmon as Dwight, Anderson as Hedo, Bertans as Lewis, Manu as Nelson and Mills as Lee.

[DPG21920]

If you ask me the best bench the Spurs have had in recent memory was Neal/Manu/Jack/Bonner/Splitter. I don't think any of those guys have great chemistry except Manu and Tiago. That was definitely a one-in-four-out offense, and it really seems to be the case here. Chemistry is important, but that's going to have to be developed anyway. Right now, Anderson and Simmons have it, and Manu and Mills have it. With another year under their belts, I think those four will have it soon. Now, they just have to get Dedmon in on the fun, and a roll-man, oop-catcher should fit in well with Manu's feeds and Anderson's lobs. Ideally, having an elite-shooting forward like Bertans in for Simmons. Then you could roll out Orlando's Van Gundy offense with Dedmon as Dwight, Anderson as Hedo, Bertans as Lewis, Manu as Nelson and Mills as Lee.

See, I agree in theory with this the problem is Manu is not the Manu of your best bench, no player is as impactful at Tiago (IMO, but maybe Kyle turns into that or Dedmon) and while playing the SVG lineup makes sense w/ the players skill sets, everyone is a far worse version talent wise of the guys you mentioned (obviously since that was a starting unit that was really good).

I just don't see top talent (which is what I meant by 6th man) and doing things in a committee approach can prove to be difficult.

I like having one for sure talented stud on the bench and SA doesn't have that - but it's more circumstance and doesn't mean the bench can't be very good.

[raybies]

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[raybies]

Murray gets matched up against Dunn!!! Should be good.

[Chinook]

See, I agree in theory with this the problem is Manu is not the Manu of your best bench, no player is as impactful at Tiago (IMO, but maybe Kyle turns into that or Dedmon) and while playing the SVG lineup makes sense w/ the players skill sets, everyone is a far worse version talent wise of the guys you mentioned (obviously since that was a starting unit that was really good).

I just don't see top talent (which is what I meant by 6th man) and doing things in a committee approach can prove to be difficult.

I like having one for sure talented stud on the bench and SA doesn't have that - but it's more circumstance and doesn't mean the bench can't be very good.

The Spurs' bench doesn't have a talent issue at all. There isn't a single player in that second unit who wouldn't be a rotation player on other teams. It's really just going to come down to fit. Like, despite what I'm saying, IS Pop going to have Manu dominate the ball against to the detriment of the rest of the bench? Can Patty return to form? Will Anderson be able to handle being a four? I'm not worried about Simmons as the 10th man, but Dedmon fitting in is obvious the huge question mark. I wanted a bench stud, too. But the team brought Manu back instead. You can talk all day about how Manu could do whatever he wanted, but that's where the money went.

The Van Gundy unit doesn't have to be as good as Orlando's. It's a bench behind what should be one of the best first units in the league. Their job is to run and disorient the opponents who were probably just settling into the half-court style of the starters. The advantage is that with guys like Forbes and Murray waiting in the wings, that second unit could stay together for a few years, and they should only get better in that time.

[ElNono]

Well, it should have been more. Dude shot 42 percent from three this summer, including three nights of 50 percent or better and averaging almost four attempts a game. I don't know how much more he would have to shoot to meet your standards.

I know you would. But that's just a horrible idea. No one does that anymore. And Anderson is arguably the best player in the second unit now. He's not going to sit there all day. He needs to go from being a liability spotting up to a threat, and he looks to be well on his way.

That's never going to change. And it shouldn't. First, because the best player in summer league ALWAYS dominates the ball. And second, because he's going to have to have the ball in his hands for the bench to work ... much more so than Manu will need to. Manu might be the heart and engine of the bench, but Anderson, especially at the four, is the fulcrum.

Anderson's not a cutter. It's just not his game. He's gangling and slow-footed. It's very hard to sneak into the paint. He's also a pop-man rather than a roll-man, so even him playing off the ball isn't going to result in cuts.

I think that's going to be the case a lot less than before. Manu's not going to run the show with two other ball-handlers next to him. It just doesn't make a ton of sense, especially not as the overwhelmingly prominent option.

I think the disagreement here is that you think Kyle Anderson is a high quality NBA player (and that's a completely valid opinion), but I completely disagree with that notion. IMO, looking at the overall talent in the league, he's a fringe NBA talent at this point, with way more questions at the NBA level than answers. And so my position is that after two seasons with the team, it's getting time where we get more answers than questions.

I could be wrong on this, but IMO, he's going to have to answer those questions without a leading role, because he hasn't shown, at the NBA level, that he can lead anything. I don't see it in his character, I don't see it in his game, I haven't even really seen it in this Summer League. He didn't go out there and dominate anything. Now, don't get me wrong. I hope he does. That would be incredibly good for the Spurs. But I'm talking with my head, not my heart, as I was telling SAGirl.

I would certainly feel more comfortable with more proven talent, but it is what it is, we're going to go with this, and hopefully it will work out.


It's not about what's best for him anymore. It's about what's best for the bench, and that doesn't always align with Manu like it used to. The Spurs have other players who need to be given room to run next to him, which wasn't the case even two years ago. You don't hold them back to keep trying to get blood from a pile of rubble that used to be a stone.

It's not about Manu, it's about building a unit where everybody plays to their strengths. How you take a bunch of different talent, and build that into a unit that's more than the sums of it's parts. To do that, it's not just Manu that will make sacrifices, but everybody. You're going to need people out there that will need to play off the ball, that will not get touches for long periods of time, that will be out there just doing the dirty work, and you still are going to have to make all of that work without "featuring" anybody, because talent-wise, and until further notice, none of these guys are difference makers on an individual basis.


I mean, if you're not going to be realistic about this, I don't know what to tell you. His USG% is much higher than that of guys like Rondo and CP3, and it's right in line with Parker's. He absolutely dominates the ball, and that's why guys like Hill and Joseph play better without him. Obviously, when Manu was better, it made sense. But that's less the case now.

His usage is high because he runs the offense, but his actual shot attempts (and you have to factor in that he plays with some of the starters too) are the lowest they've been since his rookie season. So he does starts the plays, but he's a guy that shares the ball. It's pretty rare you're going to see him dribbling around and running down the clock (unless it's the end of a quarter). He is going to be the primary pick and roll/pop guy because Patty sucks at it, Simms apparently sucks at it, etc, so that's to be expected. That's the personnel we have.


That's going to have to be Manu this year as much as it will the other guys. He's far from the only guy who can run an offense, and if he needs a whole bunch of off-ball guys to do it, he's not necessarily the best, either.

Anderson is a high-post player, and that's where he got his touches in the SL. As of right now, he's really the only guy to plays in that position for the Spurs, but it's where guys like Lebron and Gay like to make their money. Especially as a PF, I expect Pop to keep him out there when he can make things happen off the dribble rather than trying to put him on the block against bigger guys.

Nah, Anderson got his touches everywhere in the SL. Bringing the ball up, initiating the offense, running the break, in the post. Everywhere. That's good at that level. At the NBA level, he's going to get his touches at certain spots and certain plays, the rest of the time he's going to have to do other things. That goes not just for him, but also Simms, Manu, and everybody else.

[ElNono]

FWIW, I'm not "down" on Anderson. I just didn't see a more calculating, cerebral, if you will, guy than last year. This could all change once there's training camp, roles are assigned and something is built on that. IMO, he's not going to play anything like in the SL with the main team, but that doesn't automatically means he will suck or anything like that. I was hoping to see what he looked like in a more structured approach, which is what you see on NBA teams, but I also understand that it's difficult to do that when you're in a SL, with basically a random collection of guys. I basically have the same questions about him than last season. I was hoping I'll get some of those answers in the SL, but it didn't happen. It's not necessarily his fault. I'll just have to be patient and wait out until the season rolls around.

[Chinook]

I think the disagreement here is that you think Kyle Anderson is a high quality NBA player

I do think that. But I more think that Anderson HAS to be a high-quality NBA player this year for the bench to work. They simply can't afford for him not to be. That's much more important than Manu holding out for another year dominating the ball. As I said, Kyle is the fulcrum. The team's fortune is quite dependent on him, for good or ill.


He didn't go out there and dominate anything.

I think you should look again. What he perfect? No. But he was easily the best player on the team, and he looks further along offensively than Kawhi was going into this third season. I agree he needs to take a more assertive mindset into the season. But his talent is far beyond that of a fringe player. He's definitely in the top half of the big team at this point.


It's not about Manu, it's about building a unit where everybody plays to their strengths. How you take a bunch of different talent, and build that into a unit that's more than the sums of it's parts. To do that, it's not just Manu that will make sacrifices, but everybody. You're going to need people out there that will need to play off the ball, that will not get touches for long periods of time, that will be out there just doing the dirty work, and you still are going to have to make all of that work without "featuring" anybody, because talent-wise, and until further notice, none of these guys are difference makers on an individual basis.

Manu's going to have the make the most sacrifices, because he has the most to give away. Anderson isn't going to lose touches, because he didn't really have any last year. Simmons didn't even get consistent minutes. Being Diaw and West being gone, and Manu taking a step back, Anderson and Simmons will get their touches. They need to get those touches in places that work for them, not in places that work with Manu. There will hopefully be days where Manu is playing at a level where the other guys just get out of the way -- and their improved shooting should help them do that. But for the most part, the offense will be about pressure from a lot of difference sources rather than Manu making things happen.


His usage is high because he runs the offense

And he doesn't need to any more.


his actual shot attempts (and you have to factor in that he plays with some of the starters too) are the lowest they've been since his rookie season

There are plenty of ball-dominant guys who don't shoot a lot. Look at Rondo and Rubio. I'm not about that for Manu.


He is going to be the primary pick and roll/pop guy because Patty sucks at it, Simms apparently sucks at it, etc, so that's to be expected.

Almost no one sucks at PnPing. That pass is usually open. The problem was always getting the ball to the roll-man in the PnR. And having a guy who can catch lobs will make it easier for everyone to hit him, as there is a much large passing area.


Nah, Anderson got his touches everywhere in the SL. Bringing the ball up, initiating the offense, running the break, in the post. Everywhere

I think if you look at his real touches, meaning where the team is trying to get him the ball in particular, you'll see that they're high-post touches. He was hardly on the block at all. He did do some things in transition and spotting up, but he was clearly working in the triple-threat position any time they called a play for him.

[palangi]

Spurs should sign Christian Wood to a make-good. He's better than all their prospect bigs and is available. Won't be for long. A team will sign him by end of summer league.
I'm with you. A 6'11" athletic 4 man that can shoot.

LMA, KA, Wood make a nice PF combo.

[Snaq O'Meal]

I'm with you. A 6'11" athletic 4 man that can shoot.

LMA, KA, Wood make a nice PF combo.

Isn't he already under contract with the 76ers?

[palangi]

Isn't he already under contract with the 76ers?

[palangi]

Isn't he already under contract with the 76ers?
Not as far as I know. Unless he signed yesterday or today?

[raybies]

753095066361659393

[ElNono]

I do think that. But I more think that Anderson HAS to be a high-quality NBA player this year for the bench to work. They simply can't afford for him not to be. That's much more important than Manu holding out for another year dominating the ball. As I said, Kyle is the fulcrum. The team's fortune is quite dependent on him, for good or ill.

I agree that all these guys are going to have to be. The problem is that I haven't seen it. That's the concern, otherwise, we're going to be looking at last season, basically. Good enough to beat shit teams, but when you go against an Iguodala or teams (like OKC last season) that play some of their starters for 44mins, it's not going to cut it. Unfortunately, I had zero indications we've made progress with these guys.


I think you should look again. What he perfect? No. But he was easily the best player on the team, and he looks further along offensively than Kawhi was going into this third season. I agree he needs to take a more assertive mindset into the season. But his talent is far beyond that of a fringe player. He's definitely in the top half of the big team at this point.

Kawhi obliterated the SL, and, I didn't look, but I doubt he dominated the ball or shots as much as Kyle did. I mean, for the heck of it, I checked the stats in Vegas to see where he stacked up against THAT talent, where he apparently "dominated"... If he's a scorer, he's not a top 10 scorer or even had a top 10 FG%, if he's a big, he's not a top 10 rebounder or shot blocker, if his niche is passing, he's not a top 10 assist guy... now, obviously, I'm the first guy that will raise the small sample flag, but again, being "the best player" in this Spurs SL roster I don't know if it's something to brag about. Simms put up numbers too, but you kill him here (and I don't even necessarily disagree with you on that).

I'm 100% with you on the assertive part. I think that's what's lacking with him. I don't know what's going through his mind, but that's what I wanted to see from him. Knowing you're the best guy out there and just really being assertive about it.


Manu's going to have the make the most sacrifices, because he has the most to give away. Anderson isn't going to lose touches, because he didn't really have any last year. Simmons didn't even get consistent minutes. Being Diaw and West being gone, and Manu taking a step back, Anderson and Simmons will get their touches. They need to get those touches in places that work for them, not in places that work with Manu. There will hopefully be days where Manu is playing at a level where the other guys just get out of the way -- and their improved shooting should help them do that. But for the most part, the offense will be about pressure from a lot of difference sources rather than Manu making things happen.

Manu is the least of my concerns, tbh... I know he'll be good enough to run some P&R here or there, but he isn't the reason Pop went out and brought in K-Mart. Or played Boris over Kyle even when Boris looked like he was on vacation in France. Manu sacrificed any semblance of major role a long time ago.


And he doesn't need to any more.

I don't really know. Depends on what we're trying to do with that second unit. It's all about what we're going to run, IMO. One thing is for sure: it's always going to be all about execution. We're not going to freelance out there. Patty has started the offense at times too. I think the problem the last couple of seasons has been that we execute very poorly, and what ends up happening is Manu trying to bail some of that crap out. He's not a guy to do that anymore. We need better cohesion in that unit, really better know-how, execution has to be a lot better. You need smart players for that.


There are plenty of ball-dominant guys who don't shoot a lot. Look at Rondo and Rubio. I'm not about that for Manu.

I don't know about Rubio, but Rondo is a guy that loves to stick to the ball. The contrast with Manu is pretty stark, IMO.


Almost no one sucks at PnPing. That pass is usually open. The problem was always getting the ball to the roll-man in the PnR. And having a guy who can catch lobs will make it easier for everyone to hit him, as there is a much large passing area.

Patty is awful at telegraphing passes. I love him, but that's something that frustrates the hell out of me (Danny too, BTW). I just can't believe some of these guys have been in the league so long and has such problems with entry passes.


I think if you look at his real touches, meaning where the team is trying to get him the ball in particular, you'll see that they're high-post touches. He was hardly on the block at all. He did do some things in transition and spotting up, but he was clearly working in the triple-threat position any time they called a play for him.

Well, that's the thing I wanted to see and couldn't. What happens in a more structured setup. It's not his fault. Just gonna have to wait until November, I guess.

Gonna get some sleep, I'll be happy to keep going on this tomorrow. Fun stuff to talk about while there's nothing else going on.

[Nathan89]

Not sure why my recording of the game didn't work. Looks like Forbes continued to stink it up though based on the box score.

I don't think KA dominating the ball is going to be very successful this upcoming year. He really needs better off-ball players that allow him to succeed as a first option. Perhaps as a second option with some shifting defense and a better three ball to balance his game he will be pretty solid.

[TheGreatYacht]

Mills-Manu-Bertans-Stokes-Dedmon.... 2 shooters and 2 roll men for Manu. Get it done RC.

[objective]

re: the backcourt of Manu & Parker & even Mills

I wonder just how much the Olympics will fatigue them. That could make a shaky backcourt totally shook.

Because if they're jello legged to start the year, it's going to be rough. Murray isn't close to being ready for primetime, not with that defense.

[Obstructed_View]

Some quick evals:

Murray: Still quick, still physically lottery talent. Still needs to calm WAY down. Can't shoot a lick. Can't dribble up the court without turning it over. People will blame his high dribble, but it's mostly that he thinks he's better than he is. Also, he has no escape move at all.

Archdiacono: Not physically an NBA player. Not good enough at running the point, defending or scoring to make up for it.

LJC: First game, but he didn't look good. Hit a fadeaway late that was magical, but that was basically his only highlight.

Lorbek: Maybe not fair to call him the worst basketball player I've ever seen, but his combination of disinterest and lack of preparation makes him look that way. He likely accepted a summer league invitation as an excuse to gamble. When he's gesturing on the bench, he's not rooting for his teammates, he's trying to flag down a waitress. It's even money that he enters the game with a cigarette at some point. He literally watches the ball, even on offense. He just stands there with his back to the play while everyone else runs around him. My five year old daughter says he looks older than me, so I guess that's something positive. Not for him, but...

As someone else suggested earlier, Dejounte Forbes would be a really great prospect for the Spurs, but that guy probably would have gone tenth.

Jarnell Stokes reminds me of the kid who got held back a grade, so he's bigger than all the other kids and he acts like he owns the playground. He's by far the best big of team, but that's because he can physically dominate kids that he outweighs. He pushes a lot. Imagine David West, two inches shorter, without the jumper. It's a no-brainer to invite him to camp.

[Chinook]

I agree that all these guys are going to have to be. The problem is that I haven't seen it. That's the concern, otherwise, we're going to be looking at last season, basically. Good enough to beat shit teams, but when you go against an Iguodala or teams (like OKC last season) that play some of their starters for 44mins, it's not going to cut it. Unfortunately, I had zero indications we've made progress with these guys.

I think you just don't want to see it. Anderson has shown as much as anyone can in the summer league. It's not proof that he'll be able to handle big minutes, but there's been a ton of progress.


Kawhi obliterated the SL

No he didn't, especially not in comparison to Anderson. These are their lines:



Kawhi

















Season
G
GS
MPG
FG%
3p%
FT%
OFF
DEF
RPG
APG
SPG
BPG
TO
PF
PPG


2012
2
2
34
0.472
0.25
0.737
1
5
6
3
1
0.5
3
2
25




















Anderson
















Season
G
GS
MPG
FG%
3P%
FT%
OFF
DEF
RPG
APG
SPG
BPG
TO
PF
PPG


2016
5
5
29.2
0.524
0.415
0.808
1
6.4
7.4
3.4
2.4
1.4
3
2.4
21.6



Kawhi averaged 25.5 possessions a game to Anderson's 21. There's no way in hell Kawhi had a better SL than Anderson did. Now, obviously, Kawhi was going into his second season in 2012, so he was a year behind.


I mean, for the heck of it, I checked the stats in Vegas to see where he stacked up against THAT talent, where he apparently "dominated"

Anderson played five SL games, only two of which are in Vegas but all of which are against teams in the Vegas league. His scoring would put him fourth. He's not at the top in rebounding (he'd be like 25ish) but nine rebounds per 36 is more than adequate for a combo-forward. He'd be eighth on in the league in FG% among players who have taken at least 20 shots. He'd be ninth in steals.


Manu is the least of my concerns, tbh... I know he'll be good enough to run some P&R here or there, but he isn't the reason Pop went out and brought in K-Mart.

Manu needs to be higher on your list. You want to make it seem that he'll just chip in here and there, but you also want him to dominate the ball. It doesn't work that way. You can't have the ball and also take a step back, especially when you're next to guys who play best with the ball.


I think the problem the last couple of seasons has been that we execute very poorly, and what ends up happening is Manu trying to bail some of that crap out.

Spoken like a true CoMer. I think there's been a big issue with consistency in the second unit. Guys just took too many nights off. Now Manu wasn't really one of those guys, but he was inconsistent in the sense that he just couldn't do it every night due to age. It also didn't help that they lost Splitter and Baynes at the same time, so they had no one to threaten the rim. That's not nearly as big of a concern with the current bench.


Patty is awful at telegraphing passes. I love him, but that's something that frustrates the hell out of me (Danny too, BTW). I just can't believe some of these guys have been in the league so long and has such problems with entry passes.

I'm not going to confuse those guys with CP3, but the PnP pass is probably the easiest to make in basketball. Almost all defenses are designed to allow it, and jumping that lane leaves really obvious people open. As far as entry passes go, Green was the main initiator of those plays, and he only had 37 total bad passes last year (his lowest total in four seasons). That really wasn't an issue for him.

[Snaq O'Meal]

Some quick evals:

Murray: Still quick, still physically lottery talent. Still needs to calm WAY down. Can't shoot a lick. Can't dribble up the court without turning it over. People will blame his high dribble, but it's mostly that he thinks he's better than he is. Also, he has no escape move at all.

Archdiacono: Not physically an NBA player. Not good enough at running the point, defending or scoring to make up for it.

LJC: First game, but he didn't look good. Hit a fadeaway late that was magical, but that was basically his only highlight.

Lorbek: Maybe not fair to call him the worst basketball player I've ever seen, but his combination of disinterest and lack of preparation makes him look that way. He likely accepted a summer league invitation as an excuse to gamble. When he's gesturing on the bench, he's not rooting for his teammates, he's trying to flag down a waitress. It's even money that he enters the game with a cigarette at some point. He literally watches the ball, even on offense. He just stands there with his back to the play while everyone else runs around him. My five year old daughter says he looks older than me, so I guess that's something positive. Not for him, but...

As someone else suggested earlier, Dejounte Forbes would be a really great prospect for the Spurs, but that guy probably would have gone tenth.

Jarnell Stokes reminds me of the kid who got held back a grade, so he's bigger than all the other kids and he acts like he owns the playground. He's by far the best big of team, but that's because he can physically dominate kids that he outweighs. He pushes a lot. Imagine David West, two inches shorter, without the jumper. It's a no-brainer to invite him to camp.

:lol today's Lorbek

[Keepin' it real]

Murray gets matched up against Dunn!!! Should be good.

Isn't Dunn out due to concussion protocol?

[SAGirl]

Excellent, dispassionate analysis, Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557). :toast
Agreed. Chinook with the goods. Don't want to quote an excellent post from him that was already long, so I'll tag on to you. :tu

[tav1]

Isn't he already under contract with the 76ers?

The 76ers rescinded his rights prior to summer league. They should resign him, but their logjam is tight. Spurs should pounce. I'd guess Wood's agent is looking for a guaranteed multi-year deal, which is not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating a generous deal that isn't fully guaranteed, but enough to get Wood into Spurs camp.

[raybies]

Isn't Dunn out due to concussion protocol?

Yeah he may be out.

[SnakeBoy]

Damn, Chinook just destroying El Nono with facts about KA.

[ace3g]

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The Bracket:



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[raybies]

Got a tough bracket. Hopefully bertans and Milutinov play. If not why are there even there.

[palangi]

The 76ers rescinded his rights prior to summer league. They should resign him, but their logjam is tight. Spurs should pounce. I'd guess Wood's agent is looking for a guaranteed multi-year deal, which is not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating a generous deal that isn't fully guaranteed, but enough to get Wood into Spurs camp.
Why not give him 2 years guaranteed and 1 as a team option? This kid out played KA in their head to head matchup. He's a better shooter and has more length and size. He also is more athletic. I'm not saying get rid of KA but if he is guaranteed then why not give Wood something. Plus Wood is only 20 years old.

A trio of Aldridge, Anderson, and wood makes a nice PF rotation. And Wood can play some 5.

[SAGirl]

Manu's going to have the make the most sacrifices, because he has the most to give away. Anderson isn't going to lose touches, because he didn't really have any last year. Simmons didn't even get consistent minutes. Being Diaw and West being gone, and Manu taking a step back, Anderson and Simmons will get their touches. They need to get those touches in places that work for them, not in places that work with Manu. There will hopefully be days where Manu is playing at a level where the other guys just get out of the way -- and their improved shooting should help them do that. But for the most part, the offense will be about pressure from a lot of difference sources rather than Manu making things happen.
Quoting you bc in all this very interesting debate with ElNono, what you posted here is significant. There is a vacuum created by the departure of Diaw and West (even in their reduced production). They were asked to play in the paint, even though DWest specially liked to PnP and not to roll, Pop asked him to finish inside often. He couldn't against legit centers and that was a problem. Diaw is terrific in the post but he's good on mismatches, not against legit bigs, and his effort waxes and wanes. I don't know what happened to Diaw, he didn't show up. Neither Mills nor Manu could make a difference either as they are essentially jumpshooters and Anderson was parked in a corner observing all this unable to help. In the future, he won't be parked in a corner observing Pop's theatre of the insane occur for 6 straight times. ElNono wanting to park Kyle in the corner is a recipe for disaster against the good teams. Could Anderson have helped in the playoffs if Pop went to him? He scored on Roberson in the last game and I doubt Waiters could have guarded him if he was determined bc he has a lot of size on Waiters. But we won't know bc Pop didn't go to him. He went with his trusted vets 6 straight times and that was that. The end.

Anyways, Pop will have to make adjustments with Dedmon now, but he needs to be set up. Anderson and Simmons will probably be asked to get in the paint more to fill in that vacuum bc Manu and Mills do not get in the paint. They score on cuts, but when defenses tighten up and the game slows down, or against good defensive teams, cuts aren't there as defenders pay a lot more attention. In one statement Simmons stated as much, that both him and Kyle wanted to get inside, and from what I saw in SL, Anderson sought to drive often from the high post, or posted up to get in the paint. He cut the midrange in favor of PnP3, or spotted up and shot the 3, the rest were post ups or drives inside and not necessarily for himself. Occasionally he took a midrange jumper, which is fine to keep defenses honest, but he wanted to get inside. He also dished to Kirk several times when he drew help. Kirk just wasn't ready to catch passes to begin with and when he did, he couldn't finish in the paint at all, so it didn't look good, but with a better big, those drives would end up in a dish to a big who can finish. And when Kyle played with LMA, he dished to LMA very often (and to Boban), it's not like we haven't seen Anderson do that before in the big leagues, or that it is not a replicable skill. And Simmons' game has always been to get in the paint anyways for himself or drawing fouls and that's also something he did in the NBA, what he needed was practice in his dribble and making reads, knowing when to dish if he drew help and when to go for his own. Things of that nature (and to work on his own defensively, but that's a different subject area).

I am sure Pop will integrate all these things out into a system, but it probably will be less of a Manu centric system, just bc it can't be. The burden to create, to get inside will probably be spread out, but will include more Anderson and Simmons initiating things at times, not exclusively parked in corners, and the guy finding Manu and Mills on cuts is probably going to be Anderson a good amount.

[tav1]

Palangi, I don't know what would give them pause. But the 76ers did rescind him for a reason. I suspect too many fc players on roster. The 76ers' SL invitation to Wood leads me to believe they are open to bringing him back so long as they alleviate their logjam. But the SL invitation would likely confirm there are no character issues. Maybe the Spurs just don't think as much of him as they do their own prospects. But if I were RC, I'd probably take a flier on 2 years guaranteed with a team option. Seems fair.

Spurs have some roster flexibility in FC. I think they're only signing one more big, and they'd probably prefer that were a vet, even though it looks to me that they will be forced to sign a younger prospect. But it's possible they sign two more bigs. In either case, Wood looks as good as anything available and better than their Spurs SL big man prospects. We agree on this point.

Spurs may want to leave final FC position open until training camp too.

[SAGirl]

Damn, Chinook just destroying El Nono with facts about KA.
:lmao:flag:

[SAGirl]

Palangi, I don't know what would give them pause. But the 76ers did rescind him for a reason. I suspect too many fc players on roster. The 76ers' SL invitation to Wood leads me to believe they are open to bringing him back so long as they alleviate their logjam. But the SL invitation would likely confirm there are no character issues. Maybe the Spurs just don't think as much of him as they do their own prospects. But if I were RC, I'd probably take a flier on 2 years guaranteed with a team option. Seems fair.

Spurs have some roster flexibility in FC. I think they're only signing one more big, and they'd probably prefer that were a vet, even though it looks to me that they will be forced to sign a younger prospect. But it's possible they sign two more bigs. In either case, Wood looks as good as anything available and better than their Spurs SL big man prospects. We agree on this point.

Spurs may want to leave final FC position open until training camp too.
I have liked Woods too, but don't know much about him and his character issues after going undrafted. He apparently had laziness no work ethic, and Spurs don't like those kinds of guys, specially if they are young. But having to claw his way back into the NBA has maybe instilled some desire to improve himself. He does look good out there. Like you, I tend to think Pop wants a veteran.

[Chinook]

I'd give Wood guaranteed money to come on over. The Spurs aren't using it anyway.

[palangi]

I have liked Woods too, but don't know much about him and his character issues after going undrafted. He apparently had laziness no work ethic, and Spurs don't like those kinds of guys, specially if they are young. But having to claw his way back into the NBA has maybe instilled some desire to improve himself. He does look good out there. Like you, I tend to think Pop wants a veteran.
I don't know if we have the money for a veteran though.

[sasaint]

:toast SAGirl, "theater of the insane" - :lmao

Frankly, I would not mind seeing Pop make good on his promise to go out with Tim. We have a bunch of alums who have acquired sufficient experience to come back and effectively replace Pop at this point. I don't believe Becky has acquired the experience just yet.

[tav1]

I don't put a lot of stock into concerns about Wood's character. He was young when he slid in draft and seems to have improved a lot from 14 months ago. No known issues since then. But mostly, the available market of bigs is thin.

Beyond this, I subscribe to the thesis that Spurs will play smaller this season, with an open offensive system (higher volume of 3FGAs; Anderson, Leonard, Bertans at 4; Chinook's prediction of more 3/4 and 2/4 PnP, etc...). This suits Wood.

Dedmon should be a good diver in such a system too.

Kyle Anderson's candidacy for MIP and Kawhi Leonard for MVP in such a system seem like good bets to me. So much rides on Kyle's ability to consistently knock down three pointers. Let's hope Spurs get that sorted by opening night.

[rjv]

I do think that. But I more think that Anderson HAS to be a high-quality NBA player this year for the bench to work. They simply can't afford for him not to be. That's much more important than Manu holding out for another year dominating the ball. As I said, Kyle is the fulcrum. The team's fortune is quite dependent on him, for good or ill.



I think you should look again. What he perfect? No. But he was easily the best player on the team, and he looks further along offensively than Kawhi was going into this third season. I agree he needs to take a more assertive mindset into the season. But his talent is far beyond that of a fringe player. He's definitely in the top half of the big team at this point.


i fully expect KA to be a candidate for most improved player of the year award this season.

[Chinook]

Wood checks a couple of boxes for me, namely that he's able to play both big positions and is young and under the radar. With Gasol and Dedmon possibly free agents after this season, getting someone locked into a long-term deal makes a ton of sense. Wood had lottery upside this time 15 months ago. It would be nice to not have to go into next summer with three rotation spots to fill.

Unfortunately, I think he's priced himself out of the team's range.

[Chinook]

i fully expect KA to be a candidate for most improved player of the year award this season.

He's a fit next to all four of the Spurs' best players. Dude should definitely be the sixth man, though he still has to earn it.

[sasaint]

Wood checks a couple of boxes for me, namely that he's able to play both big positions and is young and under the radar. With Gasol and Dedmon possibly free agents after this season, getting someone locked into a long-term deal makes a ton of sense. Wood had lottery upside this time 15 months ago. It would be nice to not have to go into next summer with three rotation spots to fill.

Unfortunately, I think he's priced himself out of the team's range.

I suspect that the Spurs will wait to see what players get cast off in training camp before making another move. Wood seems like a better option to me. But what is our cap situation right now? I guess Tim's contract is stretched. I guess we are obliged to sign LJC. Perhaps Bertans. I have no idea where we are, but I would love to see somebody who has a good grasp of such matters bring us all up to date on our cap status.

[Chinook]

I suspect that the Spurs will wait to see what players get cast off in training camp before making another move. Wood seems like a better option to me. But what is our cap situation right now? I guess Tim's contract is stretched. I guess we are obliged to sign LJC. Perhaps Bertans. I have no idea where we are, but I would love to see somebody who has a good grasp of such matters bring us all up to date on our cap status.

The cap hasn't changed a whole lot since I posted my projections a week or so ago in the off-season thread. The main difference is that Manu's hold was bigger than I expected. I don't believe the team will have cap space beyond the guys we already know are committed. I am currently expecting Bertans to get whatever is left (somewhere between $1.4 Million and $2 Million). But between that and Gasol, the Spurs might be able to squeek out a million or so. And if Tim took less on a buyout, it will be even more. It might be enough to secure a guy like Wood, but likely it might help more to secure a guy like Forbes or Hanlan to a long-term deal.

[sasaint]

The cap hasn't changed a whole lot since I posted my projections a week or so ago in the off-season thread. The main difference is that Manu's hold was bigger than I expected. I don't believe the team will have cap space beyond the guys we already know are committed. I am currently expecting Bertans to get whatever is left (somewhere between $1.4 Million and $2 Million). But between that and Gasol, the Spurs might be able to squeek out a million or so. And if Tim took less on a buyout, it will be even more. It might be enough to secure a guy like Wood, but likely it might help more to secure a guy like Forbes or Hanlan to a long-term deal.

Personally, I am not as upset at Tony and his contract as I am with Manu and his new one. TP was under contract. However, it seems that Manu kind of forced his way back. I wish he had just retired and left us with his cap space and roster spot to invest on more youth. Oh well, it is what it is...

[Chinook]

Personally, I am not as upset at Tony and his contract as I am with Manu and his new one. TP was under contract. However, it seems that Manu kind of forced his way back. I wish he had just retired and left us with his cap space and roster spot to invest on more youth. Oh well, it is what it is...

While the argument can be made for a younger guard over Manu (though to a strong one, since Manu retiring would only free up $5.5 Million in space), there's no argument I can think of for choosing Wood over him.

[sasaint]

While the argument can be made for a younger guard over Manu (though to a strong one, since Manu retiring would only free up $5.5 Million in space), there's no argument I can think of for choosing Wood over him.

I was thinking more like Wood and Forbes. Imho, we still need another decent big. Seems like we are placing a LOT of faith in Dedmon, who is pretty unproven and known to be foul-prone. I don't really want an old geezer like Scola, but I do like the idea of putting my eggs in two baskets - even if basket #2 is pretty similar to Dedmon. Stokes does not fill the bill for me. As much as I like rooting for him, he is a tweener that I don't want - unless Chip can get him up to 35% or so on 3s, which we wouldn't know until after the fact.

[picnroll]

Wanted Wood from the beginning of Utah SL. He'd give the third big with offense and could be paired with Dedmon at times.

[ceperez]

Palangi, I don't know what would give them pause. But the 76ers did rescind him for a reason. I suspect too many fc players on roster. The 76ers' SL invitation to Wood leads me to believe they are open to bringing him back so long as they alleviate their logjam. But the SL invitation would likely confirm there are no character issues. Maybe the Spurs just don't think as much of him as they do their own prospects. But if I were RC, I'd probably take a flier on 2 years guaranteed with a team option. Seems fair.

Spurs have some roster flexibility in FC. I think they're only signing one more big, and they'd probably prefer that were a vet, even though it looks to me that they will be forced to sign a younger prospect. But it's possible they sign two more bigs. In either case, Wood looks as good as anything available and better than their Spurs SL big man prospects. We agree on this point.

Spurs may want to leave final FC position open until training camp too.

76'ers have too many FC players so its not a surprise that they waived Wood. Wood looks like he has the length and talent, but just like Murray, he's another project.

[ceperez]

The cap hasn't changed a whole lot since I posted my projections a week or so ago in the off-season thread. The main difference is that Manu's hold was bigger than I expected. I don't believe the team will have cap space beyond the guys we already know are committed. I am currently expecting Bertans to get whatever is left (somewhere between $1.4 Million and $2 Million). But between that and Gasol, the Spurs might be able to squeek out a million or so. And if Tim took less on a buyout, it will be even more. It might be enough to secure a guy like Wood, but likely it might help more to secure a guy like Forbes or Hanlan to a long-term deal.

I like Forbes because he seems to need to play within a more structured offense to do well. Further, its always good to have an additional 3 point threat.

Spurs biggest hole however is at the PF spot. After seeing LJC, it is obvious that he's too raw and will need a lot of time in Austin.

Maybe Spurs need to take a look at Hanga, he's got good size and can handle the ball well.