Official 2016 Summer League Thread [Archive] - Page 13

Chinook

07-15-2016, 01:09 AM

What the fuck dude, who said anything about signing?

Not you. Hence why you don't have any evidence for your argument. Anti-tampering laws are meaningless to the discussion. You can talk all you want, but you can't force a team to let you go.

I said from the get go that in Europe you can pay a full buyout clause and then you get to sign the player.

You don't get how illogical your assertion is. If the player could just get out of his contract, THEN YOU WOULDN'T have to pay a buyout at all. Like why would Bismack and Charlotte give Fuenlabrada a million and a half bucks in 2011 if Bismack would have just quit and signed with Charlotte anyway? It's not just to be nice.

A contract is a mutual agreement

Yes, it's mutual to get into AND OUT OF.

"A contract between a professional and a club may only be terminatedupon expiry of the term of the contract or by mutual agreement."

From that same FIBA release I posted earlier. Can a team release the player who doesn't show up to work? Yes. But they don't have to, and they don't have to pay them. You're acting as if there aren't international rules specifically about these sorts of things. I imagine non-FIBA teams can sign whoever they want, but those aren't the teams with money or really any recognition.

That's *why* there's buyouts.

They are buyouts because players want them. They're just like options. And yes, there are buyouts that are only allowed for NBA teams. If your line of reasoning were true, then such a provision would be completely useless.

Chinook

07-15-2016, 01:14 AM

Why do you think we even need anti-tampering if nobody can't get out of their contracts? That is the whole point of anti-tampering.

EDIT: well, except for trades, but players can force a trade anyways.

Nope. Teams can get head starts on recruiting players with no anti-tampering laws in effect. Like what happened with GS and Durant. The stink about the tampering accusations had nothing to do with the idea that Durant by quit mid-season to join the Warriors. It had everything to do with him being recruited when he was still property of another team. FIBA doesn't have that specific exclusion, but it does have the ability to block contracts as they see fit. Hence what it told the NBAers in China during the lockout. The NBA and most leagues are part of FIBA, so they have to follow those edicts. If LJC tried to just quit and go play for another team, FIBA would just tell him to sit his ass down. They've done it before. Buyouts are there to allow player movement, in the same way options and free agency are there. They aren't there because teams are desperate to recoup anything they can.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 01:16 AM

No. If Kawhi went up to the Spurs and told them he was going to Real Madrid, Pop would roll his eyes and say, "Not for at least three years you aren't." And if the Spurs don't want it to happen, that's the end of the conversation. Kawhi would sit out, get no money, the Spurs would get their cap space back, and that would be the end of Kawhi for at least three seasons.

And then get nothing and just let him walk? Hell no, they'll drag his ass to court for breach of contract and try to get every penny they can from him.

Again, you're being illogical. If players could leave whenever they wanted, there would be NO buyouts at all. If Bertans could have joined the Spurs this season no matter what, they aren't going to through $675k or whatever away to make it happen. No one would. It's not just those clubs being nice. Serious, man. It's strange that you're trying to go down this road. It's very wrong.

No, that's *IS* the whole point of buyouts, to accelerate the entire process. It would probably take longer to get out of his contract, longer than the time the Spurs have to sign him, but there's no doubt he can. It would cost him a pretty penny too, probably, so unless he has a sure thing, it's not worth doing.

Chinook

07-15-2016, 01:20 AM

And then get nothing and just let him walk? Hell no, they'll drag his ass to court for breach of contract and try to get every penny they can from him.

The NBA is very clear about how to handle these cases. They wouldn't sue him; they just wouldn't pay him.

No, that's *IS* the whole point of buyouts, to accelerate the entire process. It would probably take longer to get out of his contract, longer than the time the Spurs have to sign him, but there's no doubt he can. It would cost him a pretty penny too, probably, so unless he has a sure thing, it's not worth doing.

See, if it were so obvious that the player would win any court case when trying to switch teams, there'd be easy legal precedent to expedite the trials. I can understand that you'd think of buyouts as similar to settlements to avoid court cases. But they are legally binding, as the Bismack ruling showed. So it's obvious that the player doesn't have the leverage to just leave. FIBA's already ruled that they won't allow that to happen.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 01:39 AM

Not you. Hence why you don't have any evidence for your argument. Anti-tampering laws are meaningless to the discussion. You can talk all you want, but you can't force a team to let you go.

Look, read up on contract law, you're obviously way out of your league on this. If you need help, I think we have some lawyers here (FromWayDowntown, elbamba, vy65, IIRC) that can help you get acquainted with how that works. There's simply no way you can't get out of a contract. It's time consuming, and can be costly, but there's absolutely no case where you cannot terminate it.

You don't get how illogical your assertion is. If the player could just get out of his contract, THEN YOU WOULDN'T have to pay a buyout at all. Like why would Bismack and Charlotte give Fuenlabrada a million and a half bucks in 2011 if Bismack would have just quit and signed with Charlotte anyway? It's not just to be nice.

Because it takes time and money to do it, that's why. And the NBA has a window to sign players. That's the whole point of the buyout, to accelerate that entire process, and the other team gets more compensation than they would otherwise. How many times I need to repeat that until it sinks in. It's absolutely logical.

Yes, it's mutual to get into AND OUT OF.

"A contract between a professional and a club may only be terminatedupon expiry of the term of the contract or by mutual agreement."

From that same FIBA release I posted earlier. Can a team release the player who doesn't show up to work? Yes. But they don't have to, and they don't have to pay them. You're acting as if there aren't international rules specifically about these sorts of things. I imagine non-FIBA teams can sign whoever they want, but those aren't the teams with money or really any recognition.

That's the whole point, which I can't believe you're still arguing. What do you think it happens when a club drags the player to court and recovers remedies? That the contract remains? No, that's the end of the contract. That's the mutual agreement. Once that contract is over, it's done. If the club doesn't want to drag the player to court, then they're pretty stupid, because they actually have grounds to recover *some* money, instead of absolutely nothing at all and instead wait for the contract to be done. Now that's illogical.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 01:47 AM

The NBA is very clear about how to handle these cases. They wouldn't sue him; they just wouldn't pay him.

No, suspension is the first step. You can look at the Royce White case, who he was eventually waived by the Sixers. You can prolong it, but it's inevitable that eventually something is going to have to give. Teams at least try to cash in before that happens.

Chinook

07-15-2016, 01:49 AM

No, suspension is the first step. You can look at the Royce White case, who he was eventually waived by the Sixers. You can prolong it, but it's inevitable that eventually something is going to have to give. Teams at least try to cash in before that happens.

You don't pay a player you suspend.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 01:50 AM

You don't pay a player you suspend.

Sure, but eventually he got out of his contract, right? At least the Rockets cleared up cap space by trading him, but the Sixers got nothing in return.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 01:55 AM

Nope. Teams can get head starts on recruiting players with no anti-tampering laws in effect. Like what happened with GS and Durant. The stink about the tampering accusations had nothing to do with the idea that Durant by quit mid-season to join the Warriors. It had everything to do with him being recruited when he was still property of another team. FIBA doesn't have that specific exclusion, but it does have the ability to block contracts as they see fit. Hence what it told the NBAers in China during the lockout. The NBA and most leagues are part of FIBA, so they have to follow those edicts. If LJC tried to just quit and go play for another team, FIBA would just tell him to sit his ass down. They've done it before. Buyouts are there to allow player movement, in the same way options and free agency are there. They aren't there because teams are desperate to recoup anything they can.

What's your evidence for any of this? The bolded particularly is factually incorrect. If the NBA would be part of FIBA, there wouldn't need to be a FIBA-NBA agreement.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 01:57 AM

Also, why insist with the China argument? Your claim that their league doesn't have buyouts has already been dispelled as being patently wrong.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 01:59 AM

Anyways, too late here. To be continued...

gilmor

07-15-2016, 02:02 AM

Zhou Qi to Houston Rockets have all the Yao Ming maneuvering in the background.

When things like that happen you can basically fuck the contracts bindings when it comes to Asia laws.. whether sports or not sports-related.

Chinook

07-15-2016, 02:09 AM

Look, read up on contract law, you're obviously way out of your league on this. If you need help, I think we have some lawyers here (FromWayDowntown (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=110), elbamba (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6942), vy65 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11399), IIRC) that can help you get acquainted with how that works. There's simply no way you can't get out of a contract. It's time consuming, and can be costly, but there's absolutely no case where you cannot terminate it.

Let's just be clear on this: You're arguing this entire point to show why LJC could've just gone to a better team. It's obvious that no matter what you say at this point that you've shown that that was just not an option. But I think this whole, "You can just fight a years-long case with your team, your league and FIBA" argument is so unworkable that it's inadmissible. If you could get out of contracts, you could get out of buyouts just as easily. Again, there's obvious precedent that that is not the case.

Because it takes time and money to do it, that's why. And the NBA has a window to sign players. That's the whole point of the buyout, to accelerate that entire process, and the other team gets more compensation than they would otherwise. How many times I need to repeat that until it sinks in. It's absolutely logical.

No it's not. If you could just sue and not get a buyout, players would have done so already. And if it's so obvious that players would win every time, then there'd be legal precedent which essentially says contracts are not binding. Of course, they'd lose that court case despite your idea that they wouldn't.

That's the whole point, which I can't believe you're still arguing.

The "whole point" is that you're simultaneously arguing the player has all this power and that they player would have to sacrifice a bunch of earning potential to exercise it. That sounds like a lack over leverage to me. "Let me go or else I'll stop playing here and try to sign with another team, get rejected by FIBA, file a grievance with them, get that rejected, go to international court, be told FIBA's within their rights to bar me from signing somewhere else, and keep appealing until maybe some court somewhere agrees with me." WTF kind of threat is that? What kind of other club is still going to want you after all that? The further you get into this, the more obvious it is that you're trying to win on technicalities after losing everywhere else.

Players can't do you've proposed, not practically. And as far as I know, there aren't limits on buyout amounts teams can set -- and there certainly isn't a mandate to have them at all. So it's clear that the clubs still have power over player movements when those players are under contract with the club, and they concede some of that power in the form of buyouts from time to time. Again, this is just like an option in the NBAl. Guys who have the leverage to get it get it, and the guys who don't don't. If this were a player-generated concession, as you seem to think it is, then it would be club-based, not player-based.

You're an awesome poster, Nono, and you often have wonderful insight. There are topics where I just take my hands off the keyboard and read when you're talking. And that will be the case in future threads, I'm sure. But you've gone into really deep water here. Your arguments don't line up with reality anymore. Even if there is a case to be made based on the word of the law (which you still haven't shown), it's not a pragmatic path for the players to take and thus isn't worth discussion. It's sure not applicable to LJC's case, even if he were good. There are better players than him who are stuck in Europe due to their contracts.

Chinook

07-15-2016, 02:11 AM

What's your evidence for any of this? The bolded particularly is factually incorrect. If the NBA would be part of FIBA, there wouldn't need to be a FIBA-NBA agreement.

FIBA is an international federation of leagues. The NBA is a member. There's an agreement between them in the same way there are agreements between the UN and the countries that are part of it.

Chinook

07-15-2016, 02:12 AM

FIBA is an international federation of leagues. The NBA is a member. There's an agreement between them in the same way there are agreements between the UN and the countries that are part of it.

Zhou's contract just underscores my point, btb. China said they'd let him go in two years. What kind of leverage can a player have if a team is like, "Nah, not this year. Next year, maybe."

objective

07-15-2016, 02:17 AM

Anyways, too late here. To be continued...

Why even bother continuing? It's a pointless exercise in deflections and is no longer about LJC or ASVEL

It started with you posting this:

There was nothing stopping LJC from playing on a better Euro team than Asvel... like Real Madrid, Barcelona, CSKA, etc.... the only reason would be that he just wasn't that good.

And the response of:

It's not like you just get to switch teams in the middle of your contract because you've improved. Not that LJC played all that well, mind you. It's just not a valid point to talk about him upgrading from Asvel, in my opinion.

And you corrected it with this:

That actually happens all the time in Europe. It's pretty common to have buyout clauses and NBA out clauses. Teams like Madrid or Barcelona that have the cash gladly pay them to acquire top talent. Teams over there don't wait for "free agency" like the NBA.
Heck, I'm sure the Spurs would've loved him to play in a more competitive league.

That's the important part. Unless ASVEL has a reported history of fighting off bigger clubs, nfl contracts and other stuff isn't material to LJC

Chinook

07-15-2016, 02:26 AM

Why even bother continuing? It's a pointless exercise in deflections and is no longer about LJC or ASVEL

It started with you posting this:

And the response of:

And you corrected it with this:

That's the important part. Unless ASVEL has a reported history of fighting off bigger clubs, nfl contracts and other stuff isn't material to LJC

I don't think that's a "correction" at all. I have no idea what LJC's contract did or did not include, but there are quite a few players who get NBA-only buyout clauses. If LJC got one, then those other teams wouldn't've been a factor in his movement. The rest of the debate was skirmishing over whether such restrictions are legal or binding, which they obviously are or else they wouldn't exist. That's when things got out of control and into FIBA regulations and threats about international contract law.

I think with Parker owning the team and the possibility of having a farm team in a superior level of competition to the Toros, the Spurs may have been interested in keeping LJC there. Yes, with his injury and lack of development, he wasn't a hot prospect either here or overseas. But I don't think he'd've been with a bigger club had he been healthy and built on his NHS performance that first season. I think instead that he'd've been a Spur in 2014 instead of the rolling cast of guys that ended up with Damion James.

objective

07-15-2016, 03:28 AM

I don't think that's a "correction" at all. I have no idea what LJC's contract did or did not include, but there are quite a few players who get NBA-only buyout clauses. If LJC got one, then those other teams wouldn't've been a factor in his movement. The rest of the debate was skirmishing over whether such restrictions are legal or binding, which they obviously are or else they wouldn't exist. That's when things got out of control and into FIBA regulations and threats about international contract law.

I think with Parker owning the team and the possibility of having a farm team in a superior level of competition to the Toros, the Spurs may have been interested in keeping LJC there. Yes, with his injury and lack of development, he wasn't a hot prospect either here or overseas. But I don't think he'd've been with a bigger club had he been healthy and built on his NHS performance that first season. I think instead that he'd've been a Spur in 2014 instead of the rolling cast of guys that ended up with Damion James.

There was a correction because you agreed to it after, posting that you knew what El Nono was posting about, thereby acknowledging that what you posted wasn't entirely correct, and then you're adding on some other context that actually confirms the correction to the absolute.

ABC :

A: players just can't change teams
B: it happens, there's many examples
C: yeah, I know, but sometimes not among euro teams

Then why be so declaritive with A?

The debate is around a thin premise that IF LJC was a desirable player, whether he could have been acquired by a big money club. And the follow up of how that would have affected his development.

But LJC was such a non descript player that CSKA or Barca or Real didn't give a damn. But if they did, there's dozens if not hundreds of examples of big money clubs getting players mid contract. LJC's contract is a mystery.

What is the point of arguing over anything else? About your hunch that maybe ljc had zero euro buyout? We can't even get accounts of LJCs ASVEL contract length and time of signing to agree, as I linked earlier. Even if he had zero buyout, it could always be added later after negotiation.

jermaine

07-15-2016, 05:08 AM

What time an channel is the game on today?

Chinook

07-15-2016, 06:26 AM

ABC :

A: players just can't change teams
B: it happens, there's many examples
C: yeah, I know, but sometimes not among euro teams

This is instantly an incorrect way of looking at this. It's actually:

A: If he were any good, he'd be on a better team
B: He's under contract.
C: He can get out of that contract, players do it all the time.
D: Some contracts don't allow you to go to other Euro teams.
E: Armageddon

You can even match that up to quotes. It's intellectually dishonest to make it seem like I made the initial premise of the debate. And yes, I find it offensive that you believe I didn't know players get buyouts to go to other non-NBA teams often. I run the Think Tank for goodness' sake. I read everything anyone posts there, including the news of Milutinov trying to go to Crvena Zvezda from Olympiacos, a year after he secured a release from Partizan to go to Greece.

Europe has a very healthy buyout and loan market (pretty sure that's what's going on with Hanga or if not that it's what happened to him previously). But there are restrictions on that market, despite the one piece of evidence posted talking about the absence of anti-tampering laws. Players without buyouts or with buyouts too big to realistically pay are stuck with their teams. FIBA protects the rights of those teams to keep players under contract. These are facts. Now, I'm not going to claim to be an expert on these matters. But I'm not an idiot on them either.

But LJC was such a non descript player that CSKA or Barca or Real didn't give a damn. But if they did, there's dozens if not hundreds of examples of big money clubs getting players mid contract.

Most of this wasn't even in the debate circle. No one thinks LJC was doing well in France.

LJC's contract is a mystery.

Yes it is, both his previous one and his new one.

About your hunch that maybe ljc had zero euro buyout?

I wasn't asserting that he did have one, and more importantly, I wasn't asserting that that is why he wasn't at a bigger club. I've said as much multiple times. I think the Spurs wanted to experiment with developing him there. But it was a dumb idea. Should have brought him over immediately and insisted that he do summer league. May have saved that knee thought I doubt it.

Even if he had zero buyout, it could always be added later after negotiation.

Yes, that's true, and the buyout market is actually becoming a really fascinating aspect of NBA/FIBA relations. But anyway, it can be added in, but it's something that the player wants, not the team, which is Nono's biggest misconception, in my opinion. The player has to give up something to get that added in, because ultimately, FIBA would side with the team over the player, provided there wasn't a breach-of-contract reason for the player wanting to leave (as with Bertans and Milutinov in Partizan).

Chinook

07-15-2016, 07:03 AM

I will say, objective, that if the Spurs are actually negotiating a contract with LJC that isn't just a normal 120 percent deal, it could be because they want him to have to earn his money, rather than then wanting to save money themselves. So they could be haggling over incentives right now rather than just the total dollar amount. I'm not in favor of shafting a guy a couple hundred grand when he hasn't made any money while also tripling your offer to another player because he threatened to go to Philly if you didn't.

But I am a fan of them trying to take control of the LJC situation. I think the dude was hibernating in France. Maybe active (and aggressive) coaching combined with being back in his home hemisphere will help snap him out of his malaise. Whatever works.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 07:51 AM

I will say, objective, that if the Spurs are actually negotiating a contract with LJC that isn't just a normal 120 percent deal, it could be because they want him to have to earn his money, rather than then wanting to save money themselves. So they could be haggling over incentives right now rather than just the total dollar amount. I'm not in favor of shafting a guy a couple hundred grand when he hasn't made any money while also tripling your offer to another player because he threatened to go to Philly if you didn't.

How much could the Spurs pay LJC to just go away? His roster spot is worth more than his salary.

K...

07-15-2016, 07:55 AM

K...

07-15-2016, 07:57 AM

How much could the Spurs pay LJC to just go away? His roster spot is worth more than his salary.

Don't waste Mr chinooks time here. It's just won't happen. Time after time you have to consider that pafto had different player evaluations than spurs talk.

Chinook

07-15-2016, 08:01 AM

How much could the Spurs pay LJC to just go away? His roster spot is worth more than his salary.

No it's not. But they wouldn't have to pay him anything, technically.

Chinook

07-15-2016, 08:04 AM

Don't waste Mr chinooks time here. It's just won't happen. Time after time you have to consider that pafto had different player evaluations than spurs talk.

I've been upgraded? I'll have to change my avatar to match:

http://www.mostlymouses.com/salmon-slideshow/salmonp2.jpg

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 08:19 AM

No it's not. But they wouldn't have to pay him anything, technically.

I thought they had some kind of gentleman's agreement. What I mean is, how can they get rid of him and keep their reputation intact.

Chinook

07-15-2016, 08:41 AM

I thought they had some kind of gentleman's agreement. What I mean is, how can they get rid of him and keep their reputation intact.

Give him his $2 Million and release him. Or paint it like he really didn't want to be a Spur and they gave him his wish by renouncing him.

spurs50_

07-15-2016, 08:45 AM

LJC does not impress me, if only Stokes were at least 3 inches taller.

sasaint

07-15-2016, 08:52 AM

I've been upgraded? I'll have to change my avatar to match:

http://www.mostlymouses.com/salmon-slideshow/salmonp2.jpg

Very classy! Go for it!

DPG21920

07-15-2016, 09:06 AM

:cry I want McCaw

Drom John

07-15-2016, 09:25 AM

How much could the Spurs pay LJC to just go away? His roster spot is worth more than his salary.

The Spurs could/should sign LJC to a contract.
Then the Spurs could waive LJC. Assuming no other team claims LJC, then the Spurs pay out the contract as part of the cap, but opens a roster spot.

Would the Spurs do that? Yes.
Special example: Tim Duncan. Like Duncan, the Spurs could be paying LJC next year not to play.
Normal examples: Rasul Butler, Ray McCallum, Austin Daye.

When: Not now. It's summer and the Spurs can have 20 players.
I predict LJC gets to stay on the Spurs at least till the beginning of the season.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 09:33 AM

No it's not.

Actually, you're right. That roster spot seemed a lot more important a couple of weeks ago.

Chinook

07-15-2016, 09:38 AM

Actually, you're right. That roster spot seemed a lot more important a couple of weeks ago.

I mean, the Spurs have two open roster spots with LJC on the team. There really isn't a numbers crunch to make the squad for front-court players right now.

K...

07-15-2016, 10:13 AM

I want to bet real money that ljc will be on the 15 man roster. It's a lock. Next year too.

All this shit talk of waiving him, they aren't going to waive him after several years of waiting. Six summer league games? Summer league sucks for bigs. They don't get touches. You are going to waive ljc after six games?

If cady out plays ljc then we may have an issue. But I'm not counting on that.

Have you noticed that dedmon only got a year contact? They know he might leave.

Young bigs on cheap contracts are good! Ayres was good but he was getting too old.

picnroll

07-15-2016, 10:16 AM

LJC looked like a real find based on his play in the Nike Hoops game. It's like some alien has since possessed his body turning him into an indifferent crappy player.

DPG21920

07-15-2016, 10:23 AM

LJC looked like a real find based on his play in the Nike Hoops game. It's like some alien has since possessed his body turning him into an indifferent crappy player.

More like an alien abducted his knee (which is what happened).

raybies

07-15-2016, 10:28 AM

:cry I want McCaw

:tu

It's really not luck anymore. They draft really well. It has to be Jerry West... Someone there knows talent when they see it.

picnroll

07-15-2016, 10:34 AM

It was an ACL. That shouldn't be an issue 2 years later. Best case scenario for an explanation was he had shitty development under Parker's Asvel club and his confidence got totally drained.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 10:35 AM

palangi

07-15-2016, 10:39 AM

It was an ACL. That shouldn't be an issue 2 years later. Best case scenario for an explanation was he had shitty development under Parker's Asvel club and his confidence got totally drained.
This right here. The Spurs would be smart to start developing some of these kids in Austin over Europe. Especially ASVEL. I wish we would have developed Milutinov in Austin over Europe. Get an NBA game.

objective

07-15-2016, 11:45 AM

How much could the Spurs pay LJC to just go away? His roster spot is worth more than his salary.

If he isn't signed they can renounce him.

He might have gained leverage when they signed Manu and obliterated the capspace, and Dedmon's signing. My understanding is that now if they renounce they don't get his 100% caphold but minimum salary. Not a difference if they sign a vet, for instance. But if they had wanted to give a little more than minimum to a Euro or hot summer league commodity it might have been useful. So renouncing him doesn't get the Spurs anything and there's empty roster spots for him anyway.

But if he wants to play hardball they can throw right back. They can decline to contribute to any buyout if he has one.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 11:50 AM

I've been upgraded? I'll have to change my avatar to match:

http://www.mostlymouses.com/salmon-slideshow/salmonp2.jpg
^^ Brought a smile to my face. Thanks. :tu

ElNono

07-15-2016, 11:55 AM

El nono is correct. You can break any contract. However the penalties are designed to discourage wanton beaches.

Within the nba the penalty for breach is barring the player from the nba. Fiba has the same relationship.

So any nba guy can quit and play baseball, but not basketball.

Regarding European clubs to european clubs, if you just had a straight contract the penalty for breach would be small. That's why by its make sense, to take the courts away from assigning damages.

Now fwiw, This applies mainly in usa/Britain. But that's contracts in a nutshell. To answer the question correctly you need a Euro lawyer.

Thanks you. This post sums up pretty well what I was explaining. Is it easy to break a contract? No. Can it be protracted? Yes. Could it be onerous? You bet. Can it be done? Absolutely.

And the penalty would be, as you say, terribly small compared to a buyout. Once this situation arises where the player doesn't want to play anymore for a particular team, the most common scenario isn't going straight to court, it's player and team getting together an trying to find an amount that will let him buy himself out of that deal (buyout amounts can be renegotiated at this point as well). When you're at that point though, it's basically the team trying to recover losses. And at that point, as you also point out, the team really doesn't want to go to court, because their remedies would pale in comparison to the value they could get otherwise. But they absolutely could and likely will, if they can't negotiate anything better, because something is better than nothing.

Venue does matter, as you point out. Contract law generally is pretty similar among countries, but there are nuances depending on country. For example, Spain is a special case for insolvency. They don't allow automatic contract termination in that case. That's because the spanish want to give their companies an opportunity to retain assets, either to come out of bankruptcy or to pay off lenders. In the US, you might have to go through binding arbitration instead of a court, to reduce costs. But the net effect after all of this is concluded, is that the contract is over, and the player is free.

But contract law is long and winded, and has those nuances, and there's plenty of sources to read up on it, and that's a rabbit hole I don't want to get into, because...

Why even bother continuing? It's a pointless exercise in deflections and is no longer about LJC or ASVEL

Exactly. In an attempt to teach somebody that clearly didn't know what he was talking about, I overdid it. And that's completely my fault.

But I'm gonna do it one more time, because I think it's interesting and there's more than one people reading this. Unlike it was asserted previously in this thread, suspended players contracts in the NBA count fully against the team cap for purposes of acquiring new talent.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q14 on team salaries:

For certain purposes, 50% of salary not paid to players who were suspended by the league is excluded. For example, if a player with a $10 million salary is suspended by the league for exactly half the season, then he loses $5 million, and 50% of this amount, or $2.5 million, is excluded from certain calculations including escrow and luxury tax. The team does not receive extra cap room which it can use to sign another player.

So the Spurs would sit out a disgruntled player for 3 years, not pay him, take a combined $60m hit to their capspace over 3 years for a player that doesn't play, and then let him walk for free, to "punish" him?. That's the "logical" argument here?

What one would suspect happens, which does happen all the time, is the team trying to talk them out of it, and failing that, move on to recovering anything they can from that. IE: look for a trade and restart the process (Rockets on the Royce White case). Failing that, sitting down, either on friendly terms or arbitration, and come to an agreement to conclude the contract.

So those that didn't know and wanted to learn, hopefully they did. Those that don't, well, that's not really my problem.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 12:00 PM

It was an ACL. That shouldn't be an issue 2 years later. Best case scenario for an explanation was he had shitty development under Parker's Asvel club and his confidence got totally drained.
This is what Chinook is kind of saying. When he was drafted he had shown potential, but it's like he hibernated. The season before this last one he barely played. Basically between the injury and the season he barely played, those were two years of his development as a player that went :td

Chinook

07-15-2016, 12:00 PM

Lol, completely ignore the parts where K... said FIBA would bar you. No one was talking about whether a player could unilaterally quit basketball. That's what retirement is. Again, trying to ride technicalities.

Again, FIBA's already shit on your idea that players can just up and leave. And until you show an actual precedent that an international court has ruled that an Association like FIBA or the NBA can't impose such rules to force players to honor their contracts, you're just saying nothing. This whole, "Obviously you don't know contract law" argument is weak.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 12:23 PM

Chinook

07-15-2016, 12:38 PM

More garbage.

Ricky Rubio is suing Badalona

The rising star of spanish basketball, Ricky Rubio is suing the club of Badalona asking for the buy-out clause of his contract to be reduced.

http://www.sportando.com/en/europe/spain/77218/ricky-rubio-is-suing-badalona.html

I believe Rubio is having a fruitful (at least monetarily) career both in the NBA and FIBA.

Yeah, because some other Euro team paid $5 Million to buy him out of his deal (and then allowed him to leave for $1.4 Million two years later, which has to the worst financial decision I could imagine). In the NBA, the buyout would have mostly come out of his pocket.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Rubio

ESPN reported that his original buyout with Joventut was € (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro)5.7 million ($8.1 million) in both 2009 and 2010.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Rubio#cite_note-Rubio_to_Bar.C3.A7a-6) Barça bought out Rubio's contract for €3.5 million ($5.0 million), and announced on September 1 that he had signed a six-year deal with the club. The contract gave him the option to go to the NBA after the 2010–11 season,[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Rubio#cite_note-FCB_release-18) with ESPN reporting that the buyout at that time would be a more manageable $1.4 million (of which the Timberwolves could pay $500,000).[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Rubio#cite_note-Backing_out-5)

Rubio was getting paid about $200k a year with that first team. In no way was them getting $5 Million for his contract them "recouping assets". They made a killing off him, and I would imagine that that was one of the largest buyouts ever, especially between European clubs. If that doesn't show the leverage teams have, nothing does.

Better luck in your next attempt to find any evidence for your point.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 12:48 PM

So you were wrong and FIBA didn't bar him for suing his team over a contractual dispute, correct?

And absolutely it's "recouping damages". They wouldn't get 1% of that on a court of law over that dispute. I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but buyout clauses in Europe are huge because once the player wants to leave, it's inevitable. So the question then becomes how much money the team can get out of losing that talent. It's not uncommon at all that buyout clauses exceed contract value by many factors. It's the team "insurance" if you will over losing top talent.

AFBlue

07-15-2016, 12:55 PM

ERRONEOUS....ERRONEOUS ON ALL COUNTS!

itsamanuthree

07-15-2016, 12:57 PM

Popcorn

Chinook

07-15-2016, 01:03 PM

So you were wrong and FIBA didn't bar him for suing his team over a contractual dispute, correct?

I never said he couldn't sue. Not once. What I said was that I don't agree with your belief that the player would breeze through court. In fact, I made reference to lawsuits multiple times in my rebuttals.

And absolutely it's "recouping damages".

Yeah, no. They didn't WANT Rubio to stay. They wanted that money from him. They got their money.

They wouldn't get 1% of that on a court of law over that dispute.

I don't know what they'd get. You know sure as shit it wouldn't be decided on in court until FIBA made their ruling. Even your article says the outcome could go either way. You're misrepresenting the player's leverage no matter what.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here

You are. I imagine at this point, it's just going to be like that for both of us.

but buyout clauses in Europe are huge because once the player wants to leave, it's inevitable.

Illogical. The clauses are huge to discourage players from leaving. If Barca doesn't bail Rubio out, he spends three years at his old club and leaves once the Wolves offer him enough to make his buyout. If teams were simply trying to get money, it behooves them to not have buyouts so big that the player sues them. Mind you, this is easily a bigger issue for the NBA where teams are capped in their contributions.

It's not uncommon at all that buyout clauses exceed contract value by many factors. It's the team "insurance" if you will over losing top talent.

Eh, it's been a way for teams to earn money for 30 years now (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/14/sports/basketball/14nba.html). I think you're kidding yourself if you think the teams giving up Rubio aren't dancing in their windfalls.

emanueldavidginobili

07-15-2016, 01:07 PM

Any news on if Bertans is playing today?

spurraider21

07-15-2016, 01:08 PM

does anybody think ljc is an NBA talent?

Chinook

07-15-2016, 01:10 PM

does anybody think ljc is an NBA talent?

Depends on how much of his performance is physical and now much is mental.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 01:51 PM

He looked like shit last year too.

I disagree, he had a few impressive games in the beginning.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 01:55 PM

This is what Chinook is kind of saying. When he was drafted he had shown potential, but it's like he hibernated. The season before this last one he barely played. Basically between the injury and the season he barely played, those were two years of his development as a player that went :td

Bertans had a similar injury (in fact he had it twice!), but you can see that Bertans has a lot more fight in him.

LJC supposedly outplayed all the lottery picks in his draft, yet for some reason he didn't excel in France.

The oddest thing of all is that Spurs still want him in the team! What do they see that we are all missing?

K...

07-15-2016, 01:58 PM

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 02:02 PM

Bertans had a similar injury (in fact he had it twice!), but you can see that Bertans has a lot more fight in him.

LJC supposedly outplayed all the lottery picks in his draft, yet for some reason he didn't excel in France.

The oddest thing of all is that Spurs still want him in the team! What do they see that we are all missing?
Bertans has always been a shooter, and he's gotten better at what he already did well. He is not very good at anything else and that was the same a few years ago, but so long as he has one elite thing he can do well he can have a role.

LJC was a sort of energy player with a lot of defensive potential, blocking shots and making athletic defensive plays. He needed to add something to his offensive repertoire and hasn't. Defensively, he needs training which he will get in training camp.

r0drig0lac

07-15-2016, 02:10 PM

does anybody think ljc is an NBA talent?

if he can play like Clint Capela will have been worth

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 02:15 PM

They see size. That thing you can't teach. They see a prospect to develop. Remember mahinimi? Did you call for Ian to be cut before training camp? How about nando, cojo, etc?

Ian Mahinmi looked really good in his first summer league. He shut down Demarcus Cousins.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 02:30 PM

Bertans has always been a shooter, and he's gotten better at what he already did well. He is not very good at anything else and that was the same a few years ago, but so long as he has one elite thing he can do well he can have a role.

LJC was a sort of energy player with a lot of defensive potential, blocking shots and making athletic defensive plays. He needed to add something to his offensive repertoire and hasn't. Defensively, he needs training which he will get in training camp.

Energy guy?! Livo "Low Joules" Jean-Charles, are we talking about the same guy here?

Keepin' it real

07-15-2016, 02:31 PM

Will today's game be televised?

ulosturedge

07-15-2016, 02:35 PM

This right here. The Spurs would be smart to start developing some of these kids in Austin over Europe. Especially ASVEL. I wish we would have developed Milutinov in Austin over Europe. Get an NBA game.

You hit the nail on the head. I think these overseas prospects would have way better development on our dleague team. The problem I believe is the money. Those kids rather make 6 figures overseas in the interim then play for 35k in the dleague.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 02:41 PM

Energy guy?! Livo "Low Joules" Jean-Charles, are we talking about the same guy here?
He will need to increase that.as you remember he had better games last SL.

raybies

07-15-2016, 02:51 PM

Awfully quiet on the news front for having a game in 10 minutes...

raybies

07-15-2016, 02:53 PM

Will today's game be televised?

NBATV and ESPN 3

Edit: not live on NBATV.

raybies

07-15-2016, 02:57 PM

754041694048231424

ESPN 3 should have it

jyra

07-15-2016, 03:01 PM

Oh shit hype, Bertans!

r0drig0lac

07-15-2016, 03:02 PM

nba-stream.com link 1

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:02 PM

754043020564017152

r0drig0lac

07-15-2016, 03:02 PM

bertans in

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:03 PM

Bertans playing it's over. At least five threes

r0drig0lac

07-15-2016, 03:03 PM

Bertans playing it's over. At least five threes

word

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:05 PM

So glad Simmons isn't playing. Really want to see Murray featured

Spurs Brazil

07-15-2016, 03:05 PM

Illegal D on Bertans

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:08 PM

Playing bertans at the four to start.

jyra

07-15-2016, 03:08 PM

Cady missed Bertans wide open in the corner on that drive.

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:10 PM

Nice pass

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:12 PM

Send like the are gonna limit bertans alot. Was expecting more burn.

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:16 PM

LJC....

Spurs Brazil

07-15-2016, 03:16 PM

Damn, LJC is bad

objective

07-15-2016, 03:20 PM

Ian Mahinmi looked really good in his first summer league. He shut down Demarcus Cousins.

Ian also grew another inch by the time he finally came over. If LJC had popped up to 6-10 or 6-11 ...

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:21 PM

Cmon Ndoye. Know your role! You see bertans open, you feed him the rock!

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:22 PM

I've been saying uthoff is a solid player. Okay, I said he's interesting..

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:24 PM

LJC really gonna command a spot!? He's worse than Ayers. I'm having my doubts now.

coachmac87

07-15-2016, 03:25 PM

Damn, LJC is bad

I've been saying this for awhile. Not close to being an NBA player...

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 03:25 PM

Would like to see Bertans out there with someone that can create opportunities for him.

jyra

07-15-2016, 03:26 PM

Really want to see some plays with Bertans running off screens.

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:27 PM

This game sucks and nobody is posting.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 03:29 PM

Nice ball movement Dijon 3!

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:30 PM

Or bigs are very underwhelming

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 03:30 PM

LOL the hell was that

ceperez

07-15-2016, 03:31 PM

Becky determined to play all the players? Looks like 15 players have been subbed in already.

jyra

07-15-2016, 03:31 PM

Not hard to see why Rodriguez was warming the bench in the other games..

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 03:32 PM

I can't believe I'm watching this game. Really just here for possible Murray or Bertans highlights.

Yes they're both on the floor and we get a Dijon 3!

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:32 PM

Pretty much everyone who hasn't played, can't play. Nothing to see here.

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:33 PM

hell of a three by Murray.

no clue why ESPN keeps putting Kevin Martin in the damn depth chart

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 03:34 PM

Dijon 3 but that wasn't a good shot for him. I definitely see Dijon getting coaching in Austin.

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:35 PM

haha Joel Meyers begging Duncan to come back.

amazing how thats league wide, even people that work in the league offices.

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:36 PM

Pretty much everyone who hasn't played, can't play. Nothing to see here.

so Davis Bertans cant play?

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 03:36 PM

This game sucks and nobody is posting.

I hate the stupid consolation round. Didn't even know the damn game was on.

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 03:37 PM

About Duncan changing his body composition. "He stopped going to whataburger for the triples" :lol

ceperez

07-15-2016, 03:37 PM

hell of a three by Murray.

no clue why ESPN keeps putting Kevin Martin in the damn depth chart

Did Spurs just sign Kevin Martin for the minimum?

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:37 PM

so Davis Bertans cant play?

He hasn't really gotten enough looks. I mean the guys that have been here and haven't played.

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 03:37 PM

Love Bertans effort on the boards.

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:38 PM

Did Spurs just sign Kevin Martin for the minimum?

havent seen it reported anywhere.

If he had, guaranteed Woj wouldve reported it.

jyra

07-15-2016, 03:38 PM

Latvian connection out there with Gromovs and Bertans.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 03:39 PM

Love Bertans effort on the boards.

He runs a lot better than I expected him to.

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:39 PM

About Duncan changing his body composition. "He stopped going to whataburger for the triples" :lol

no idea why he said that. He was always in shape, he just stopped hitting the weight room and did more stretching and other exercises.

He was never heavy.

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 03:39 PM

Forbes!

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 03:39 PM

Bertans going to the floor for the loose ball leading to the 3!

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:40 PM

Finally, a shooter who actually makes a shot.

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:40 PM

man I really really like Bryn Forbes. Hes always in position, he knows where to be on the offensive side, beautiful form.

a young Gary Neal type, that you can develop is a pretty big find.

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:40 PM

Gromovs got demolished

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 03:41 PM

Forbes impersonating Patty

ceperez

07-15-2016, 03:41 PM

Jean-Charles leading the team....
...
..
.
in turnovers!

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:41 PM

beautiful pass by Murray.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 03:41 PM

man I really really like Bryn Forbes. Hes always in position, he knows where to be on the offensive side, beautiful form.

a young Gary Neal type, that you can develop is a pretty big find.

He's a good shooter that doesn't have a glaring weakness in other spots. That's why he'll have a chance.

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 03:42 PM

no idea why he said that. He was always in shape, he just stopped hitting the weight room and did more stretching and other exercises.

He was never heavy.

I seem to remember a quote in the past where Duncan said he changed his diet to mostly lean meats and veggies which led to his body fat % dropping by a good amount. Something along those lines.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 03:43 PM

He's a good shooter that doesn't have a glaring weakness in other spots. That's why he'll have a chance.

I hope he sticks... he's all business when he's out there. He's also not going out there making stupid moves (you can find that with Murray galore)

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 03:43 PM

Gromovs is getting minutes. Is Lalanne hurt? I guess the Spurs have given up on him.

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 03:43 PM

beautiful pass by Murray.
I'm impressed with his passing instincts and decisiveness for his age.
He really has something...

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 03:43 PM

Gromovs got demolished

That's kind of what he does.

elemento

07-15-2016, 03:44 PM

Murray looking good I like it.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 03:45 PM

Gromovs is getting minutes. Is Lalanne hurt? I guess the Spurs have given up on him.

Lalanne has been a disappointment this SL.

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:45 PM

He's a good shooter that doesn't have a glaring weakness in other spots. That's why he'll have a chance.

agree. Hes decent defensively but will improve. Hes running to spots already on fast breaks that will work on the Spurs. Cant wait to see him play on rest nights.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 03:45 PM

Gromovs is getting minutes. Is Lalanne hurt? I guess the Spurs have given up on him.
I think this is the last chance to see guys they haven't seen much of. Lalanne they know. Id expect he will get a training camp invite being a 2nd round pick unless he agrees to be stashed, but that is not in his interest. He's 24? I think, and Spurs need big men now, if there is a chance for him to push himself in it's now. Not that i have been impressed or anything, but he needs to compete with LJC and others.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 03:46 PM

Murray looking good I like it.

Did he finally learn to shoot the 3?

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:46 PM

Forbes getting his hands in thepassing lanes and a night lead to Murray. This kid is making the roster.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 03:46 PM

Lalanne and LJC patrolling the paint. Another and-1. Woot.

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 03:47 PM

Man Murray is talented.

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:47 PM

I seem to remember a quote in the past where Duncan said he changed his diet to mostly lean meats and veggies which led to his body fat % dropping by a good amount. Something along those lines.

Yeah he changed his diet later because he got old. But its not like he was some Dejuan blair in the early 2000's like Meyers indicated

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 03:47 PM

Did he finally learn to shoot the 3?
Finally? Is he 27?

raybies

07-15-2016, 03:47 PM

Spurs turn into a summer league dumpster fire without slowmo. Even the 0-4 Kings gonna be tough to beat.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 03:48 PM

Forbes getting his hands in thepassing lanes and a night lead to Murray. This kid is making the roster.

Well, he's getting a camp invite for sure.

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:48 PM

Forbes isn't afraid to shoot :lol Pop will love that

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 03:49 PM

I like Dijon... needs to work on his game. . . but he has definite energy.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 03:49 PM

Man Murray is talented.

Sometimes he looks so good, and other times he looks so turrible. This is going to be a fun year.

T Park

07-15-2016, 03:49 PM

Well, he's getting a camp invite for sure.

If he keeps this up hes making the team. No way theyd expose him to the rest of th eleague unless they got someone just miles and miles ahead better.

jyra

07-15-2016, 03:51 PM

Labissiere just making a bunch of contested shots.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 03:51 PM

Spurs turn into a summer league dumpster fire without slowmo. Even the 0-4 Kings gonna be tough to beat.
Agreed. Thanks for acknowledging it. I tire of being the lone wolf howling lol
We really won that SL championship on his back, and he's a leader. Soon as we sat him down, this ship is sailing.

Also tells me one thing. Becky is a fine coach, but without her best player ain't the same thing. Puts in perspective how much coaching can impact a game. Putting guys in good spots is all she can do. SloMo doesn't get enough credit.

TheGreatYacht

07-15-2016, 03:51 PM

Bertans (aside from a rebound) and LJC haven't done anything so far in 10 minutes each

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 03:52 PM

If he keeps this up hes making the team. No way theyd expose him to the rest of th eleague unless they got someone just miles and miles ahead better.

They already have him under contract for at least this year, don't they? It's not guaranteed. It's a lot more likely since roster spots aren't really as much of a premium as they looked a couple of weeks ago.

elemento

07-15-2016, 03:52 PM

Did he finally learn to shoot the 3?

It's going to take a while, but his defense so far has been impressive. His length really bothers other players.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 03:53 PM

Agreed. Thanks for acknowledging it. I tire of being the lone wolf howling lol
We really won that SL championship on his back, and he's a leader. Soon as we sat him down, this ship is sailing.

Also tells me one thing. Becky is a fine coach, but without her best player ain't the same thing. Puts in perspective how much coaching can impact a game. Putting guys in good spots is all she can do. SloMo doesn't get enough credit.

I agree with that. These Spurs players look like I complete wreck!!

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 03:54 PM

Agreed. Thanks for acknowledging it. I tire of being the lone wolf howling lol
We really won that SL championship on his back, and he's a leader. Soon as we sat him down, this ship is sailing.

Also tells me one thing. Becky is a fine coach, but without her best player ain't the same thing. Puts in perspective how much coaching can impact a game. Putting guys in good spots is all she can do. SloMo doesn't get enough credit.

The whole team was better last SL than it was this year, particularly in Vegas. Everyone played like a team. This year was a lot of isolation and a lot of standing around. Frankly, it looked a lot like the regular season Spurs but with fewer long jumpers off the dribble.

SPURt

07-15-2016, 03:55 PM

Bertans must hate going from Euro play to Summer League. They aren't involving him very much.

Murray having a good game outside of 3 or 4 plays that look like he's trying stuff that worked in highschool.

LongtimeSpursFan

07-15-2016, 03:55 PM

Sometimes he looks so good, and other times he looks so turrible. This is going to be a fun year.

He seems to be a little more in control today. Still making some sketchy plays but I think that just because guys don't Know each other. It's easy to see he has the most talent on the floor. His ability to get to the rim looks effortless and he seems to have an idea where the other players are on the court should he need to pass.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 03:56 PM

The whole team was better last SL than it was this year, particularly in Vegas. Everyone played like a team. This year was a lot of isolation and a lot of standing around. Frankly, it looked a lot like the regular season Spurs but with fewer long jumpers off the dribble.

That happened ever since, Dejounte Murray joined the team. No coincidence. The guy is a cancer at such a young age. :-(

Reminds me of that Russel character with the Lakers.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 04:00 PM

raybies

07-15-2016, 04:01 PM

That happened ever since, Dejounte Murray joined the team. No coincidence. The guy is a cancer at such a young age. :-(

Reminds me of that Russel character with the Lakers.

Definitely not a cancer. With your logic, Heild and Dunn are cancers. They both lost alot of games. Look at Minnesota. They were ranked last and beat us without Dunn. They haven't lost since he went out I believe and he was averaging like 25 points per game. Few rookies ever make a positive impact to begin.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 04:01 PM

He seems to be a little more in control today. Still making some sketchy plays but I think that just because guys don't Know each other. It's easy to see he has the most talent on the floor. His ability to get to the rim looks effortless and he seems to have an idea where the other players are on the court should he need to pass.

The guy is hot dogging out there while everyone is trying to play serious ball. Talk about an overly entitled draft-pick who has a guaranteed contract. The guy should be benched.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 04:01 PM

The whole team was better last SL than it was this year, particularly in Vegas. Everyone played like a team. This year was a lot of isolation and a lot of standing around. Frankly, it looked a lot like the regular season Spurs but with fewer long jumpers off the dribble.
On another topic... that offense, Pop's experiments? Looks like more Iso this season?

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:01 PM

Spurs were winning just fine b4 Slowmo was sat.

Oh I agree about this year's team. It was all him. But last year's team played really well together. That's all I was saying.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:02 PM

The guy is hot dogging out there while everyone is trying to play serious ball. Talk about an overly entitled draft-pick who has a guaranteed contract. The guy should be benched.

Wow, clearly you've chosen a position and dug in as hard as you can about it. Good luck with that.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 04:02 PM

Spurs were winning just fine b4 Slowmo was sat.

They were blowing out teams, until Dejounte Murray started playing. SlowMo had to bail that team out.

T Park

07-15-2016, 04:04 PM

They already have him under contract for at least this year, don't they? It's not guaranteed. It's a lot more likely since roster spots aren't really as much of a premium as they looked a couple of weeks ago.

I believe its a 75K guarantee for Training Camp. nothing guaranteed beyond that.

palangi

07-15-2016, 04:04 PM

Agreed. Thanks for acknowledging it. I tire of being the lone wolf howling lol
We really won that SL championship on his back, and he's a leader. Soon as we sat him down, this ship is sailing.

Also tells me one thing. Becky is a fine coach, but without her best player ain't the same thing. Puts in perspective how much coaching can impact a game. Putting guys in good spots is all she can do. SloMo doesn't get enough credit.

I hate her rotations. Hey coach, it's ok to play 2 bigs together. Stokes isn't a center. LJC isn't a center. Lalanne and Ndoye are 2 guys that can pay center. Quit playing 6'5" guys at the 4. We aren't the warriors.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:04 PM

Papagianis is a big motherfucker.

T Park

07-15-2016, 04:05 PM

That happened ever since, Dejounte Murray joined the team. No coincidence. The guy is a cancer at such a young age. :-(

Reminds me of that Russel character with the Lakers.

Clearly someone is snorting bath salts

look_at_g_shred

07-15-2016, 04:05 PM

Giving up on players based on Summer League :lol

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:05 PM

I hate her rotations. Hey coach, it's ok to play 2 bigs together. Stokes isn't a center. LJC isn't a center. Lalanne and Ndoye are 2 guys that can pay center. Quit playing 6'5" guys at the 4. We aren't the warriors.

What's weird is that they'll run that, but they'll also run out four guards in the same game. I guess the idea is to get them ready to play out of position, because Pop's going to do that at random points.

T Park

07-15-2016, 04:06 PM

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:06 PM

Is Bertans pronounced "Burtons" like Joel is saying? Sounds wrong to me.

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 04:07 PM

Bertans with the nice banker on the run. Good looking touch.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:07 PM

Its fucking summer league.

Jesus christ

Exactly. Take a break from sucking off the coaches for a change.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:08 PM

Bertans with the nice banker on the run. Good looking touch.

He moves really well. If he stays healthy this season...

T Park

07-15-2016, 04:08 PM

Is Bertans pronounced "Burtons" like Joel is saying? Sounds wrong to me.

dah vis Ber Tans

Meyers cant pronounce Manu Right either.

palangi

07-15-2016, 04:08 PM

Its fucking summer league.

Jesus christ

It is? And what does Christ do in it?

HankChinaski

07-15-2016, 04:08 PM

Agreed. Thanks for acknowledging it. I tire of being the lone wolf howling lol
We really won that SL championship on his back, and he's a leader. Soon as we sat him down, this ship is sailing.

Also tells me one thing. Becky is a fine coach, but without her best player ain't the same thing. Puts in perspective how much coaching can impact a game. Putting guys in good spots is all she can do. SloMo doesn't get enough credit.

Yeah I noticed this too. I don't get all the hate you get or the snide Anderson comebacks people throw you way sometimes when you don't even make reference or mention him in posts.

T Park

07-15-2016, 04:09 PM

Exactly. Take a break from sucking off the coaches for a change.

:rolleyes

Yeah keep fighting the man tough guy

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 04:09 PM

He moves really well. If he stays healthy this season...
His skill-set and ability to move the way he does, he could be a fixture in the rotation soon.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:09 PM

dah vis Ber Tans

Meyers cant pronounce Manu Right either.

I thought I'd heard it that way.

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 04:10 PM

It is? And what does Christ do in it?
He chooses who wins.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 04:10 PM

Papagianis is a big motherfucker.
Kings should be featuring him and going to him every time down, Pop's old style. Lol

palangi

07-15-2016, 04:10 PM

That happened ever since, Dejounte Murray joined the team. No coincidence. The guy is a cancer at such a young age. :-(

Reminds me of that Russel character with the Lakers.

Really? It doesn't surprise me anymore how dum some posters can be here.

Take a couple weeks off buddy. You need it.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:10 PM

:rolleyes

Yeah keep fighting the man tough guy

Yeah, it's a political statement. You got me. It's not just people making observations about puzzling lineups.

HankChinaski

07-15-2016, 04:10 PM

It is? And what does Christ do in it?

Tells you to go to hell

T Park

07-15-2016, 04:11 PM

Yeah, it's a political statement. You got me. It's not just people making observations about puzzling lineups.

yeah lineups in summer league are really to be broken down. No question.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:12 PM

Stokes is getting a camp invite for sure, right? He looks like Jeff Ayres, solid but unspectacular.

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 04:12 PM

Is Bertans pronounced "Burtons" like Joel is saying? Sounds wrong to me.

You can hear the proper pronunciation at the beginning of this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BvH0F1N0Mo

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 04:12 PM

Stokes is a nice player for lower leagues, I really don't like how undersized he is though.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:13 PM

yeah lineups in summer league are really to be broken down. No question.

But not to be questioned, at least not with you around to keep everyone in line. :rolleyes

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:14 PM

This is much better movement by this lineup. :lol the color guy just said the same thing as I was typing this.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 04:14 PM

LJC made a jumper

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 04:15 PM

This is much better movement by this lineup. :lol the color guy just said the same thing as I was typing this.
Ceperez will tell you that was bc they sat Dijon.:lol

palangi

07-15-2016, 04:15 PM

:rollin:rollin:rollin
:rolleyes

Yeah keep fighting the man tough guy

:lol tough guy!

Says the idiot who constantly tries to tough guy others on the Internet.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:16 PM

Ceperez will tell you that was bc they sat Dijon.:lol

But I think Hanlan was in the game, which will make Yacht's head explode.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:17 PM

So the Spurs have good spacing for two straight possessions, and they sub three guys out. SMH

ElNono

07-15-2016, 04:18 PM

How's Bertrans looking? Too busy with work right now...

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 04:20 PM

How's Bertrans looking? Too busy with work right now...

A couple of nice drives, one resulting in a nice high banker and the other getting fouled for FT's. Doing well when given opportunities but he hasn't had many at all.

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 04:21 PM

How's Bertrans looking? Too busy with work right now...
Moves nice. High effort. Good stroke. Decent IQ.
No real complaints yet.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 04:21 PM

A couple of nice drives, one resulting in a nice high banker and the other getting fouled for FT's. Doing well when given opportunities but he hasn't had many at all.

Moves nice. High effort. Good stroke. Decent IQ.
No real complaints yet.

thanks :tu

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:21 PM

How's Bertrans looking? Too busy with work right now...

He's so much faster and quicker than I expected him to be. His jumper looks good. He hit one from about 28 feet in rhythm, and he's fighting for rebounds. He sets good screens, though he pops every time, and he has better hands than I expected.

HankChinaski

07-15-2016, 04:21 PM

Stokes is a nice player for lower leagues, I really don't like how undersized he is though.

He moves really well with his back to the rim. His height hurts him. I haven't caught enough of summer league to see how well he can keep up with small forwards. I know he is mostly a 4 based off his skill sets but if he could be put on swingman on D I think he has value in a Spurs second unit

tmtcsc

07-15-2016, 04:21 PM

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:22 PM

And Bertans has another 28 footer rim out at the buzzer.

ElNono

07-15-2016, 04:22 PM

Thanks guys. Hope to catch the game later on replay in ESPN3

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 04:22 PM

Lorbek looks like a hopeless divorcee who should be sitting on his sofa eating TV dinners, letting his belly hang out shamelessly because, hey, who's going to watch?

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:23 PM

Bertans looks like Bonner with better movement, a quicker jumpshot, a brain, and athleticism.

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 04:23 PM

And Bertans has another 28 footer rim out at the buzzer.
Almost all of his 3 point attempts have been really deep.

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 04:24 PM

He hit one from about 28 feet in rhythm

Damn I missed that

HankChinaski

07-15-2016, 04:24 PM

He's so much faster and quicker than I expected him to be. His jumper looks good. He hit one from about 28 feet in rhythm, and he's fighting for rebounds. He sets good screens, though he pops every time, and he has better hands than I expected.

Everything I have seen of Bertans up until today had me seeing this from him. Moves very well without the ball. Has a fast and smooth release with his J. I have high expectations of him these two seasons with the Spurs. Dont feel he will disappoint off the bench.

gambit1990

07-15-2016, 04:24 PM

didn't even know they played today. watching it at work :tu

loveforthegame

07-15-2016, 04:24 PM

Lorbek looks like a hopeless divorcee who should be sitting on his sofa eating TV dinners, letting his belly hang out shamelessly because, hey, who's going to watch?

Spot on. I kinda feel sorry for him. :lol

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:25 PM

Almost all of his 3 point attempts have been really deep.

I guess he's stepping further back to make the pass easier for the guard.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 04:25 PM

I think people in this forum expecting much from Murray or Bertans this year are going to be extremely let down. Murray is talented but very raw. His best attribute is getting to the basket but he's an awful shooter and plays wild. It's not a good wild either. If he's not doing something for himself he's not doing it wholeheartedly. He's like the WR in football that doesn't run complete routes or get in engaged on a play unless the play is called for him.

Stick a pin in the guy, let him develop in the D-League and check back in a year, maybe two. As for the other prospects - Bertans has been unimpressive and so has LVC. Bertans looks like Bonner with better movement.

Murray is heading to the D-league... his game doesn't translate well with the NBA or what the Spurs need to get done.

Betrans will be in the regular rotation. I also expect Forbes to be in it too. Spurs just need those role players who know where to spot up in case guys like Leonard are in a bind.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:26 PM

Rodriguez is an amazing player. I just start to think that he's terrible and dumb, and then he does something incredible.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 04:26 PM

Everything I have seen of Bertans up until today had me seeing this from him. Moves very well without the ball. Has a fast and smooth release with his J. I have high expectations of him these two seasons with the Spurs. Dont feel he will disappoint off the bench.

Kyle Korver clone... should be good enough. Glad he was signed.

Hoops Czar

07-15-2016, 04:26 PM

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:28 PM

Murray is heading to the D-league... his game doesn't translate well with the NBA or what the Spurs need to get done.

Betrans will be in the regular rotation. I also expect Forbes to be in it too. Spurs just need those role players who know where to spot up in case guys like Leonard are in a bind.

There's little doubt looking at Murray that he's got NBA potential. The real question at this point is if he buys into the Spurs' system. I can see him getting into the rotation sooner than later, but I can also see him playing out his contract in Austin.

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 04:28 PM

How's his defense?
Not great, but he's trying. He needs more discipline, but I can understand he's probably got some extra adrenaline pumping right now.

John Petrucci

07-15-2016, 04:29 PM

I think Bertans has much better finishing capability than a Bonner or Korver. Dude can throw it down. Really want to see him in some fast break situations.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:29 PM

How's his defense?

He moves well, keeps his hands up, and he's smart. He may not dominate anyone with his defense, but teams won't be licking their chops when they see him check in.

ceperez

07-15-2016, 04:30 PM

There's little doubt looking at Murray that he's got NBA potential. The real question at this point is if he buys into the Spurs' system. I can see him getting into the rotation sooner than later, but I can also see him playing out his contract in Austin.

He's got good length and good moves. He's just not ready though for the bigger faster and more cerebral NBA game. Austin for a year, just like what Cojo did.

I seriously don't expect him to see the court in the NBA next year.

td4mvp2k

07-15-2016, 04:30 PM

someone tell murray to PASS the ball ffs

HankChinaski

07-15-2016, 04:30 PM

He has had about two weeks roughly with the coaching staff in summer league. Has terrific potential. Training camp and mid season will tell you a lot at how quickly he adapts to the Spurs System.

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 04:31 PM

There's little doubt looking at Murray that he's got NBA potential. The real question at this point is if he buys into the Spurs' system. I can see him getting into the rotation sooner than later, but I can also see him playing out his contract in Austin.
Yeah, you want to talk about a diamond in the rough. He's already got some natural skills that most players won't be able to touch after years of work *cough* Danny Green's handles *cough*.
But there is so much to refine.

r0drig0lac

07-15-2016, 04:31 PM

Kyle Korver clone... should be good enough. Glad he was signed.

taller and athletic Kyle Korver

Hoops Czar

07-15-2016, 04:32 PM

Not great, but he's trying. He needs more discipline, but I can understand he's probably got some extra adrenaline pumping right now.

He moves well, keeps his hands up, and he's smart. He may not dominate anyone with his defense, but teams won't be licking their chops when they see him check in.

Then, he's already an upgrade over prime Bonner. :lol

LakerHater

07-15-2016, 04:33 PM

754041694048231424

ESPN 3 should have itESPN3 is the app right

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 04:33 PM

Bertans is no stiff. He can move and he moves pretty fluidly, for his size.

jyra

07-15-2016, 04:34 PM

Nice drive and kick by LJC.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2016, 04:34 PM

He's got good length and good moves. He's just not ready though for the bigger faster and more cerebral NBA game. Austin for a year, just like what Cojo did.

I seriously don't expect him to see the court in the NBA next year.

No, I don't either. It's not impossible, but no. Joseph was a McDonald's All American who fell because he had a bad freshman year, IIRC. Murray wasn't as highly touted in high school, but he's got more of an NBA body than Joseph does.

TheGoldStandard

07-15-2016, 04:35 PM

Then, he's already an upgrade over prime Bonner. :lol

Prime Bonner is by far the most oxymoron thing anyone could ever say..

tonight...you

07-15-2016, 04:35 PM

Archie is so savvy.

SAGirl

07-15-2016, 04:35 PM

I think people in this forum expecting much from Murray or Bertans this year are going to be extremely let down. Murray is talented but very raw. His best attribute is getting to the basket but he's an awful shooter and plays wild. It's not a good wild either. If he's not doing something for himself he's not doing it wholeheartedly. He's like the WR in football that doesn't run complete routes or get in engaged on a play unless the play is called for him.

Stick a pin in the guy, let him develop in the D-League and check back in a year, maybe two. As for the other prospects - Bertans has been unimpressive and so has LVC. Bertans looks like Bonner with better movement.
Quoting you bc I agree with everything. I like Dijon but he needs seasoning. Definite defensive potential, very long active hands and quick feet. Takes ill advised shots, hogs the ball. He's good one second, bad wild the next. Has potential though.

Bertans is fast and agile but not strong. Hasn't gotten good looks, and his jumpshot is off. Hasn't been that good defensively but at least he has active feet. I liked that he was able to put the ball on the floor when they closed him out aggressively and get to the basket for that bank shot or draw a foul. I think he can play this season.