Official 2016 Summer League Thread

[TheGreatYacht]

I agree with ElNono (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8054) . Fathead blows.

He looked pedestrian in Vegas this year and it's his third time there. I could give two shits what he does against these scrubs though.... He hasn't shown shit in the NBA and was the biggest Cancer on the team in the playoffs.

[ElNono]

I think you just don't want to see it. Anderson has shown as much as anyone can in the summer league. It's not proof that he'll be able to handle big minutes, but there's been a ton of progress.

In what sense? He was just as "good" in the SL last season (MVP, right?), but it means absolutely nothing at the NBA level. He couldn't even really break consistently in the rotation, and clearly wasn't ready for a playoffs role.


No he didn't, especially not in comparison to Anderson. These are their lines:

Kawhi averaged 25.5 possessions a game to Anderson's 21. There's no way in hell Kawhi had a better SL than Anderson did. Now, obviously, Kawhi was going into his second season in 2012, so he was a year behind.

Yes he absolutely did, he came out there playing like he was the best player in the SL and he absolutely looked exactly that. He only played 2 Vegas SL games for the Spurs (IIRC, there was no Utah SL then and there was no SL at all his first season due to the lockout) and he completely dominated those games, to the point the Spurs pulled him, even though it was his first SL ever. Last time I was actually excited about a SL. So I'm comparing to the 2 SL games Kyle played in Vegas this time around against that, and he nowhere near stacks up. Not even close. Especially on the attitude department. Night and day, and Kyle actually has much more experience against that kind of talent. Then again, Kawhi, flaws and all, is a way more talented player than Kyle, so it's not exactly a fair comparison. But the difference in attitudes was what I was aiming at, and it's just black and white.


Anderson played five SL games, only two of which are in Vegas but all of which are against teams in the Vegas league. His scoring would put him fourth. He's not at the top in rebounding (he'd be like 25ish) but nine rebounds per 36 is more than adequate for a combo-forward. He'd be eighth on in the league in FG% among players who have taken at least 20 shots. He'd be ninth in steals.

I took the Vegas games, because that's really the main SL event and that's what Kawhi played too. Again, big grain of salt due to small sample size and also not really an apples to apples comparison because they played against different talent, but he didn't dominate any category. But what's more, he didn't stood out from that talent level, which is my main concern, tbh...


Manu needs to be higher on your list. You want to make it seem that he'll just chip in here and there, but you also want him to dominate the ball. It doesn't work that way. You can't have the ball and also take a step back, especially when you're next to guys who play best with the ball.

Spoken like a true CoMer. I think there's been a big issue with consistency in the second unit. Guys just took too many nights off. Now Manu wasn't really one of those guys, but he was inconsistent in the sense that he just couldn't do it every night due to age. It also didn't help that they lost Splitter and Baynes at the same time, so they had no one to threaten the rim. That's not nearly as big of a concern with the current bench.

I don't know where you get this idea that Manu "dominates the ball", and I'm not even being sarcastic here. The 2nd unit has been run by committee pretty much since Manu got older 4-5 years ago. It's not me saying it either, everybody here says the same thing. I guess they're all CoMer. Is he heavily involved in execution with that unit, and that's reflected in his usage? You bet. Will he continue to be? There's zero indication that he won't be, mostly because there's been no news about having superlative talent there. Some argue we've taken a step back. That unit run plays, that's all they do. Boris got his touches in the post, West in the pick and roll/pop, Patty in the mid-range or the occasional open 3. When Tiago was around, it was the P&R. When Beli was around, on cuts. There's no secret how that unit runs. I can't even remember the last time Pop called a play for Manu that was not that back-cut under the rim (which they actually run with the starters). The whole foundation with that unit has been for years basically to run flex, unless you have Kawhi or LMA out there. Will Pop call plays for Kyle now? Well, he did used to call plays for Bobo, so I suspect he will.

And Kyle didn't get "touches" and eventually minutes, because he couldn't beat Bobo for his spot, period. And he didn't because he wasn't substantially better to warrant that, unfortunately. Bobo is not there now, so he'll likely have an opportunity now to earn those touches and that spot. That's all there is to it, and I hope he does well, and I certainly hope he does much better than last season's Bobo.


I'm not going to confuse those guys with CP3, but the PnP pass is probably the easiest to make in basketball. Almost all defenses are designed to allow it, and jumping that lane leaves really obvious people open. As far as entry passes go, Green was the main initiator of those plays, and he only had 37 total bad passes last year (his lowest total in four seasons). That really wasn't an issue for him.

He might've improved, but how does he stacks up against the league? Without looking at numbers, I would hazard he's on the lower half in the league as far as passing goes. I hope that's something he worked on during the summer, but then again, there's a lot of things I was hoping he worked on over the summers and never materialized.

[ElNono]

I agree with ElNono (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8054) . Fathead blows.

He looked pedestrian in Vegas this year and it's his third time there. I could give two shits what he does against these scrubs though.... He hasn't shown shit in the NBA and was the biggest Cancer on the team in the playoffs.

I won't say he blows. But at best, he's unproven talent at the NBA level. Let's pretend for a sec that after 3 years, he evolved enough and really outgrew the SL level, as the Spurs appear to think he has.

Now he moves on to earning his spot on the main team playing NBA competition. That's the progression. Kawhi is the only guy that broke that mold, because they thought he was really really good, and they thought that basically a years and a half into his career. They dumped RJ basically to hand him the spot. There's no similar situation here, Boris was salary dumped to make cap space available and sign Gasol. Even with Kawhi, Pop really didn't call plays for him for like 3 years.

I just think people that figure the Spurs are going to change everything to focus on Kyle in that 2nd unit without him actually earning it, are just setting themselves up for disappointment.

[ElNono]

ElNono wanting to park Kyle in the corner is a recipe for disaster against the good teams.

I don't want him to park in the corner. All I'm saying is, if he can't find his niche somewhere else, and his shot looks as improved as been said here, then AT LEAST he could contribute doing that now. You couldn't even play him in that role last season.

But, again, I'm with you in that we'll have to see how Pop wants to play with this talent. How roles are assigned and especially what kind of style he wants to play with them. My guess looking at what we've been able to see (this is why I wanted to see Bertrans), is that we're going to go back to playing by committee. And hopefully they younger get better, the new guys are hungrier, and we end up with something there.

[SnakeBoy]

I just think people that figure the Spurs are going to change everything to focus on Kyle in that 2nd unit without him actually earning it, are just setting themselves up for disappointment.

Who are these people your talking about and when did they say that?

[Chinook]

Gonna paraphrase the quotes for everyone's sanity:


Kawhi dominated Summer League

Again, he really didn't. I understand that you absolutely, positively will not admit you're wrong (you've warned me about this multiple times), but there is no evidence that Kawhi was anything transcendent then, especially offensively. I think if you dropped Anderson in those games with his lines, he'd've been pulled too. We're going to get into murky and completely non-constructive territory if this stays in the "He looked better, honest" territory.


Only Vegas games count/they count the most

Seriously?


Manu doesn't dominate the ball

Yes he does. Again, he's right up there with Rondo and CP3. Just because he loves to pass doesn't mean he doesn't dominate the ball. You've confused what he likes to do with what the team's needed him to do. Sometimes they were the same, especially in his prime. But as Joseph is showing now, it's simply not true that Manu makes everyone around him better. The team would have been well-served had they taken the ball out of Manu's hands sooner. Not all the way, or even most of the way for the second unit. But it has stunted the growth of other players before, and it just can't happen this time.


The Spurs mostly run plays in the second unit

The Spurs don't usually run plays. They run sets, but those flow organically. Pop only calls plays when he wants specific action. With the bench at it's height, it wasn't with Pop constantly controlling it like Carlisle does with Dallas.


Anderson didn't beat Diaw for his spot

What? Anderson had no problem getting minutes last year. He was right behind Diaw in terms of both MPG and total minutes played. They weren't competing with each other for a spot. Anderson was a wing last year. He's a forward this year. And no, they don't play the same position on the court. Anderson is a high-post guy like a lot of combo-forwards. Diaw is a low-post guy, like a lot of fat players.


Green was a bad entry-passer compared to the league average

No idea. Dude probably threw 1000 entry passes, and may have turned the ball over on 20 of them. Certainly doesn't warrant ire. Of all of his issues, getting the ball to Leonard and LMA on the block was not one of them.


Wishing Green added things to his game

I think we all wish that.

[ElNono]

Who are these people your talking about and when did they say that?

Chinook is certainly advancing that.

[lilbthebasedgod]

Who else do we have other than Anderson on the bench? Mills can be ok, but certainly isn't who we should be building around. We have our worst bench in ages.

[SAGirl]

Personally, I am not as upset at Tony and his contract as I am with Manu and his new one. TP was under contract. However, it seems that Manu kind of forced his way back. I wish he had just retired and left us with his cap space and roster spot to invest on more youth. Oh well, it is what it is...
Among many things we chatted about b4 summer league and FA was precisely exchanges between the camp in the "woe is me", the "let's mini-tank" camp, and the "we just need to address a few things camp".... I wasn't in any particular camp and I think I changed my mind at least once, eventually Chinook (and a couple others who are more positive) convinced me that even with all the disfunction in last season's team if we were able to fix one issue, we could legitimately be right back in the mix (this was b4 Tim retired and Durant switched teams, I thought Durant would stay in OKC.. yea I was in that camp. oh well)...
Anyways, I thought well, at least let's fix the bench scoring somehow. One of the ways to address that was just to get a vet that was in his prime. Listen Manu cannot be the Man, that is just clear. Neither can Mills, he's a jumpshooter... and there are legit questions with 22 yr old "limited role last season" Anderson, and Simmons "I am getting benched for fouling and TO over"... so I thought let's just get a veteran who can get buckets and fix that one problem, meantime Pop will sort these two out through the season. I actually saw the light with Boban, bc Boban can just straight up get buckets. Boban instead of Dwest and you have a whole different bench, maybe you can't stop anybody, but was the old bench in reality stopping anybody either? :lol Not even that much of a need to get creative. But Boban was let go. Chinook came up with ideas for a few established but maybe risky guys, but eventually reality dawned on us that Boban was gone, Diaw was gone and we had to make do. No "Gordon" type, not any kind of legit scoring guard who was in his prime would in his right mind come here to play behind Manu. It's like signing Conley to come here and divvy up time with Tony. It wasn't going to happen in any scenario.

The only way I can see Manu right now is in the immeasurable value that he will bring when Anderson and/or Simmons invariably have a bad game and need support. Also, when they are slacking and need a vet to get in their ear or someone to straight up push them if they are backing down from the "fight" from anybody. It will be a challenge for them. There will be times someone will get the best of them, Pop will chew them, etc. That's usually when a vet presence helps. Basically what Tim did for Kawhi in his later stages of his career, I'd expect Manu to do for both (and Murray and Bertans and whoever youngster is out there). I am sure Pop will still go to Manu a lot, maybe more than we think he should bc by God, we have seen that b4, but I am hoping to see a kind of gradual evolution, as others do more and are able to do more, he will become more of a support player. That kind of support, help, veteran leadership is very valuable and irreplaceable. Perhaps the best way to see the whole situation is that Pop has sufficient faith that the younger players he has will step up and having a veteran like Manu was the most valuable support and help for them. (There is also the "Manu can do whatever he wants" camp... but that's too selfish and gets out of the Spurs team concept. Manu has to help the team).

[ceperez]

I don't want him to park in the corner. All I'm saying is, if he can't find his niche somewhere else, and his shot looks as improved as been said here, then AT LEAST he could contribute doing that now. You couldn't even play him in that role last season.

But, again, I'm with you in that we'll have to see how Pop wants to play with this talent. How roles are assigned and especially what kind of style he wants to play with them. My guess looking at what we've been able to see (this is why I wanted to see Bertrans), is that we're going to go back to playing by committee. And hopefully they younger get better, the new guys are hungrier, and we end up with something there.

Parker / Green / Leonard / Aldridge / Pau
Mills / Manu / Bertans / Anderson / Dedmon <-- Looks to be a very poor defensive team
Murray / Simmons / LJC / ? / ?

Mills / Manu / Anderson / LJC / Dedmon <-- better but will have trouble scoring

Mills / Manu / Simmons / Anderson / Dedmon <-- more scoring
Anderson / Manu / Simmons / LJC / Dedmon <-- more defense
Manu / Bertans / Simmons / Anderson / Dedmon <--- hmmmm..... death lineup lite?

I'm guessing that if Kevin Martin is not picked up elsewhere, he's signing for vet. min. with the Spurs

[ElNono]

Gonna paraphrase the quotes for everyone's sanity:

:lol no problem


Again, he really didn't. I understand that you absolutely, positively will not admit you're wrong (you've warned me about this multiple times), but there is no evidence that Kawhi was anything transcendent then, especially offensively. I think if you dropped Anderson in those games with his lines, he'd've been pulled too. We're going to get into murky and completely non-constructive territory if this stays in the "He looked better, honest" territory.

Well, that's not true. Quote? I've admitted to being wrong many times before, and gladly eaten crow when it happened.

What I'm pretty sure I've said before is that we just won't agree on certain opinions, which are that, opinions. Isn't that what we're discussing here? Did X or Y looked "better". What's "better"? That varies from people to people, that's what opinions are. I have no problem with people having opinions completely different than mine, I just respectfully disagree when I find the arguments given to me are simply lacking. I've had people convince me otherwise too, I've been here long enough, I'm sure some people can attest to that.

It's like I don't think there are arguments at this point in time that would manage to convince me Anderson is a high quality NBA player. If he turns out to be, I'll be more than happy to admit being wrong, eat crow and pat you in the back.


Seriously?

Well, we can just simply chalk it up to small sample. It's not my fault Kawhi was so good he only played 2 games in the SL his entire career. It's just what I had to work with.
I admitted that's a deeply flawed comparison from the very start, for a number of reasons, but at least I was hoping there would be at least a few connections.
But then, if you want to dismiss it, that's fine. I understand that it is, after all, a flawed comparison.


Yes he does. Again, he's right up there with Rondo and CP3. Just because he loves to pass doesn't mean he doesn't dominate the ball. You've confused what he likes to do with what the team's needed him to do. Sometimes they were the same, especially in his prime. But as Joseph is showing now, it's simply not true that Manu makes everyone around him better. The team would have been well-served had they taken the ball out of Manu's hands sooner. Not all the way, or even most of the way for the second unit. But it has stunted the growth of other players before, and it just can't happen this time.

Cory was battling for minutes and a position with Patty, not Manu. That was the guy he had to beat on the rotation for minutes and touches.

I think your beef deep down is that the system Pop put in place just didn't feature younger, inexperienced guys, but that's a beef with Pop, not Manu. That's a unit that, at least tries to, move the ball. Sure, the objective is to get a great shot for a guy in a position of strength (which as I said, hasn't really been Manu for the past 3-4 years), but that's just been execution being poor, not somebody hogging the ball.


The Spurs don't usually run plays. They run sets, but those flow organically. Pop only calls plays when he wants specific action. With the bench at it's height, it wasn't with Pop constantly controlling it like Carlisle does with Dallas.

A lot of what the Spurs do is heavily choreographed. They don't go out there and see what's up (which you do see a lot in the SL). You know that. That's exactly what I meant when I said I wanted to see Kyle on a more structured approach.

I agree, especially during the regular season, that Pop doesn't micromanage as much as other coaches. But he'll jump right in when execution is crap.


What? Anderson had no problem getting minutes last year. He was right behind Diaw in terms of both MPG and total minutes played. They weren't competing with each other for a spot. Anderson was a wing last year. He's a forward this year. And no, they don't play the same position on the court. Anderson is a high-post guy like a lot of combo-forwards. Diaw is a low-post guy, like a lot of fat players.


I think we all wish that.

Certainly.

[ElNono]

Personally, I am not as upset at Tony and his contract as I am with Manu and his new one. TP was under contract. However, it seems that Manu kind of forced his way back. I wish he had just retired and left us with his cap space and roster spot to invest on more youth. Oh well, it is what it is...

According to Ginobili, Pop called him and told him he wanted him back...

[ceperez]

According to Ginobili, Pop called him and told him he wanted him back...

Spurs need Manu to orchestrate the offense. Look at the 2nd team...

Mills / Manu / Bertans / Anderson / Dedmon... Anderson can't do it... nor can Simmons. Mills, Bertans, Demon obviously can't. Murray? (no way).

[sasaint]

SAGirl, I think you are painting a best case scenario. I hope you are right. I just don't see Pop "phasing out" one of his old reliables, but I could definitely be wrong. I do think he has value in a leadership role and transmitting "Spurs Culture" to guys like Murray, who will not experience a team helmed by Timmy. On that note, I do believe that Pau is the best conceivable replacement we could get for Tim. While not steeped in Spurs Culture, he is very Spursy and will help to fill a tiny part of the leadership void.

[sasaint]

According to Ginobili, Pop called him and told him he wanted him back...

Figures.

[SPURt]

Where can the game today be watched?

[ceperez]

lineup? no bertans?

[ducks]

pop might have called manu back but thought he would get him cheaper

[jyra]

No Bertans on the bench..

[GSH]

Gonna paraphrase the quotes for everyone's sanity:

Again, he really didn't. I understand that you absolutely, positively will not admit you're wrong (you've warned me about this multiple times), but there is no evidence that Kawhi was anything transcendent then, especially offensively.


Well, that's not true. Quote? I've admitted to being wrong many times before, and gladly eaten crow when it happened.

It's like I don't think there are arguments at this point in time that would manage to convince me Anderson is a high quality NBA player. If he turns out to be, I'll be more than happy to admit being wrong, eat crow and pat you in the back.

Well, we can just simply chalk it up to small sample.


Someone needs to piss on this fire, so it will go out. You two are down to arguing about stats from SL, in different years, and with different but small sample sizes? Seriously? You don't even know what instructions each player got in their SL stints, or what the team wanted to see out of each one. Both of you know better than that.

SL stats don't mean shit to begin with, but Kawhi didn't figure out how good he was until the playoffs in 2014. Really, the Finals of 2014. After that, he didn't have to play SL. Had he played the next year, he would have dominated. But regardless of his numbers in SL, Kawhi was CLEARLY a better player than Kyle Anderson from the beginning.

Kyle may still not know who he is as a player. All that point-forward bullshit didn't help him out. All the talk about him replacing Manu as the first guy off the bench, and facilitating the offense (even remotely like Manu) didn't help, either. And talking about him being a high-post player "like LeBron"? Poop. That's like saying that Boban is a dominating NBA center, because of what he did in garbage time.

Anderson is probably going to get pressed into service more this year. We'll see how much he's developed then.

[AFBlue]

Where can the game today be watched?

[TheGreatYacht]

What channel is the game on?

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

What channel is the game on?
Not on NBATV or ESPN2, I'm watching on ESPN3.

[Solid D]

It's not on ESPN, ESPN2, or NBATV

[TheGreatYacht]

Not on NBATV or ESPN2, I'm watching on ESPN3.
Thanks :tu

[kxs783kms]

Can anyone provide a link?

[dabom]

Fathead is a shit player. He can't facilitate, rebound, assist, steal, defend, block, shot the 2 or shot the 3 or drive. :lol

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

Can anyone provide a link?
BTW check reddit.com/r/nbastreams if you can't get ESPN3 to work

[SnakeBoy]

lineup? no bertans?

Why would the Spurs want to play Bertans with scrubs in the SL?

[TheGreatYacht]

LJC already giving up offensive rebounds. What a terrible rebounder for his size and length

[TheGreatYacht]

Stokes is so good man. He'd be the only offensively talented gifted big on the bench

[r0drig0lac]

Stokes is good

[Chinook]

Who is Webber? Seems to have some Beverly in him.

[LakerHater]

Simms w the spin

[TheGreatYacht]

CJ Williams playing PF...... Can't secure a rebound and gives up an open 3 on the same play.

Spurs ain't winning shit if both Stokes and Simmons are not on the court. These players are terrible

[DPG21920]

Look at who has been the worst of the 1st round picks in SL w/ regards to PPP:

753349993868648448

[kxs783kms]

BTW check reddit.com/r/nbastreams if you can't get ESPN3 to work

Got it! Thanks!

[TheGreatYacht]

Arci isn't even getting a camp invite if he's just going to pass up the ball as soon as he gets it...

We'll never hear of this Hanlan scrub ever again.

CJ Williams shoots a lot for a guy that can't shoot.

[Solid D]

LJC = non factor
Not even a good pick setter.

[LakerHater]

man, they get into our paint easy!

[SAGirl]

Ben Simmons taking a night off in Summer League!!!!!!!
Terrible franchise cornerstone resting at 19 yrs old.

[Spurs Brazil]

Murray doing better today, penetrate and kick a couple times already, not forcing shots

[SAGirl]

NBATV not showing the Sprus game

[SPURt]

Ew... T Pups putting it where the Spurs poop

[TheGreatYacht]

Terrible players aside from Simmons and Stokes.

RC better not waste a roster spot on Jean-Charles just to prove a point. He's gotta admit that he's a dud.

[Darius Bieber]

NBATV not showing the Sprus game

ESPN3

[Spurs Brazil]

I have no ideal why they'll bring LJC. He's not ready even for D-League.

[SPURt]

NBATV not showing the Sprus game
Found it on ESPN3

Edit: sorry for the double post!

[TheGreatYacht]

Game is on ESPN3 and on the ESPN & WatchESPN apps

[LakerHater]

NBATV not showing the Sprus game
ESPiN

[jermaine]

Murray is trash to me. He'll never make it off the bench, if he even make it out the D- league. If He don't get cut from the D- league, an have to go overseas.

[SAGirl]

thanks... channel changed transmission and is showing the Sixers game where they are going on about how Ben Simmons is basking in the glow taking selfies and signing autographs and taking a game off in SL... wow

[TheGreatYacht]

Ulis is so much better than Murray so far it ain't even close. Not giving up on him though..... But :lol at the posters wanting him to start last week

[tonight...you]

Murray is trash to me. He'll never make it off the bench, if he even make it out the D- league. If He don't get cut from the D- league, an have to go overseas.
jermaine... c'mon man. C'mon.

[Darius Bieber]

Blow it up tbh. Pathetic.

[LakerHater]

thats a charge

[lilbthebasedgod]

Murray seriously needs to finish. He's obviously the most talented player on the court but his finishing has been terrible.

[playblair]

stream quality = :toast links are allowed btw

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSxwoqt8g5p_i1ZItn2pP2g/live

[Ditty]

Murray will be fine :lol His advanced ball handling, and natural long strides/quickness will make him into something in this league. His ability to become a better shooter, and finisher will come once he has a better feel for the game.

[jermaine]

jermaine... c'mon man. C'mon.

I'm saying he's whole first season will be in the D- league getting over himself an getting his bbiq up. You know I ain't lying. I know he's young, so I expect all that. But I thought, he'd play this yr.... He won't. Not for Pop!

[SPURt]

Murray finishes like a dick dipped in Novocain.

[objective]

Look at who has been the worst of the 1st round picks in SL w/ regards to PPP:

753349993868648448

Well, I guess you could say his offense matches his defense.

[TheGreatYacht]

Becky giving Ndoye a 30 second cameo then brining CJ Williams in :lmao

She's gotta stop giving all these scrubs playing time.

[TheGreatYacht]

I pray Becky never becomes our coach. She'd give Matt Bonner and Reggie Williams mandatory playing time. Smh

[Chinook]

First time watching LJC this year. Dude looks good.

[TheGreatYacht]

First time watching LJC this year. Dude looks good.
No way man..

[Ditty]

I don't think LJC looks that bad. He does look slower, and less athletic compared to last year. It doesn't help that the guards don't see him open when he rolls.

[Chinook]

No way man..

Yeah. I didn't see the game last night nor the first stint today, so I'm not going to say everyone's been wrong this whole time. But if that's what people is calling horrible, then it's just something I disagree with. Dude will be fine with coaching.

[Ditty]

Come on Murray stop ball watching on defense...

[SAGirl]

I don't want him to park in the corner. All I'm saying is, if he can't find his niche somewhere else, and his shot looks as improved as been said here, then AT LEAST he could contribute doing that now. You couldn't even play him in that role last season.

But, again, I'm with you in that we'll have to see how Pop wants to play with this talent. How roles are assigned and especially what kind of style he wants to play with them. My guess looking at what we've been able to see (this is why I wanted to see Bertrans), is that we're going to go back to playing by committee. And hopefully they younger get better, the new guys are hungrier, and we end up with something there.
Pop will have to design a system that takes advantage of his best players. That is all am saying. If he doesn't get the best out of the young players that he has right now, the team isn't going anywhere. That does require that they get the ball in places they can do something with it (as opposed to spotting up if you are not ideally a spot up shooter, or cutting if you are not a cutter, but Kyle improving the 3 means that he can fit in many more things than he could previously and he will be able to open up the floor for others' running plays and benefitting with open shots for himself.) Just shooting the 3 is unlikely to be all he can do, bc he's a very good passer and with both Diaw and West missing, he will get the ball to find cutters as well as attack for himself much more than you saw previously. Not saying the whole thing will revolve around him or what Simmons can do, but what players call their games will be added into the mix... and Manu has to adapt too. Maybe he's the one cutting and screening more. Maybe he's the one spotting up more. Etc.

[Obstructed_View]

jermaine... c'mon man. C'mon.

He was ready to start only a few games ago.

[TheGreatYacht]

Yeah. I didn't see the game last night nor the first stint today, so I'm not going to say everyone's been wrong this whole time. But if that's what people is calling horrible, then it's just something I disagree with. Dude will be fine with coaching.I was with you when everyone was riding the Murray hype last week, but Jean-Charles... He's a poor man Mbah a Moute, and Mbah a Moute is already a poor player

[Ditty]

Man if only Simmons was in his early 20's...

[Chinook]

I was with you when everyone was riding the Murray hype last week, but Jean-Charles... He's a poor man Mbah a Moute, and Mbah a Moute is already a poor player

I'd take Mbah a Moute in a heartbeat. The Spurs are probably in the Finals if they had him on the team last year.

[Obstructed_View]

I was with you when everyone was riding the Murray hype last week, but Jean-Charles... He's a poor man Mbah a Moute, and Mbah a Moute is already a poor player

Your evaluations of players are so consistently poor that I'm wondering if LJC is actually going to be a player now.

[TheGreatYacht]

No way Minnesota gives us Dieng for Mills when they're loaded at PG. Tyus Jones looks good

[TheGreatYacht]

Your evaluations of players are so consistently poor that I'm wondering if LJC is actually going to be a player now.
Tell us how Alex Kirk has a nose for the ball again, faggot.

[LakerHater]

http://imgur.com/Y5u19N3.jpg

Kevin Martin still a Spur??

http://i.imgur.com/YDTLymm.jpg

[rjv]

Your evaluations of players are so consistently poor that I'm wondering if LJC is actually going to be a player now.

so true, a thumbs down from GY is actually a ringing endorsement.

[Obstructed_View]

Tell us how Alex Kirk has a nose for the ball again, faggot.

Anybody with eyes saw all the tap outs he had. It's completely accurate and objective, unlike virtually everything you ever post.

[TheGreatYacht]

so true, a thumbs down from GY is actually a ringing endorsement.
If that were true, fathead wouldn't shoot 32% in the playoffs. Dude sucks.

[jyra]

Nice hammer play by the Twolves.

[TheGreatYacht]

Anybody with eyes saw all the tap outs he had. It's completely accurate and objective, unlike virtually everything you ever post.
Your thread backfired :lol literally, no one backed you up.

Thats why you stopped doing game evaluations, lol.

I agree that Kirk looked terrible - not sure he is even D-League material. Possibly lowest level of Euroball.

I don't onow this kirk dude..But is he white by any chance? Could explain the bias

I agree with TGY. OV's assessment of the game seems biased or skewed.

Kirk sucked imo. He is too lumbering and slow out there. I thought Forbes did good. He shot the ball really well last night and his stroke looks smooth. He can dribble so he's got good handles. If he keeps it up he looks like another shoot first PG in the making. KA looked about the same to me. I did notice that he is bulking up. Maybe the FO realizes he won't ever be able to keep up with the SF of the league. Simmons still at his best when he's attacking the rim. His 3 point shot was lacking and I guess his decision making is still a work in progress.

Where the hell was LJC and Nikola Milutinov? All of our previous draft picks were MIA. I knew Murray was gonna be there but I expected these other guys to show up.

Agreed, dude doesnt even deserve a spot in the roster. Hes slow af and except for a couple of off rebounds, he didnt do much
Kirk looked nervous af out there. He couldn't catch the ball and when he did it looked like he was confused. He definitely had a nose for the ball though. It was constantly hitting him in the face.

That being said, I think he just needs to get comfortable and settle his game down.

[Chinook]

Someone needs to piss on this fire, so it will go out.

I feel like you're looking at this whole thing the wrong way.


You two are down to arguing about stats from SL, in different years, and with different but small sample sizes?

Yeah, there's no conflict there. Acting like Leonard dominated while Anderson didn't is silly. It's silly and incredibly biased. Anderson did everything he could do this summer to show that he's not a fringe player. He seemingly patched the only hole in his offensive game. People who aren't happy with how he played are the same people who would have been unhappy no matter what.


You don't even know what instructions each player got in their SL stints, or what the team wanted to see out of each one.

They probably told them both the exact same thing, by looking at how they played.


Kawhi was CLEARLY a better player than Kyle Anderson from the beginning.

He'd've gone in the top five had that been the case. It's not a dig at him to say that he had to really develop offensively. Now, if you mean that Kawhi was more NBA-ready and even had a higher upside, I agree. But Anderson after two years is a better offensive player than Kawhi after one year (or hell, even two years) was.


All that point-forward bullshit didn't help him out.

That didn't hurt him at all.


All the talk about him replacing Manu as the first guy off the bench, and facilitating the offense (even remotely like Manu) didn't help

I agree on this. He's a completely different player than Manu. But yes, he'll be the sixth man this year or next. Saying so doesn't hurt him at all.


And talking about him being a high-post player "like LeBron"? Poop. That's like saying that Boban is a dominating NBA center, because of what he did in garbage time.

That's not a good analogy. Anderson gets his points in the same place as Lebron does, and especially as he did before he became a complete player. Lebron is not remotely the only guy who plays from that spot, but it's not a place where any recent Spurs play.


Anderson is probably going to get pressed into service more this year. We'll see how much he's developed then.

I don't think there's any pressing involved. That was his curve this whole time. He could not have traded Diaw had they not felt comfortable with Anderson.

[r0drig0lac]

Murray!!!

[SAGirl]

SAGirl (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49524), I think you are painting a best case scenario. I hope you are right. I just don't see Pop "phasing out" one of his old reliables, but I could definitely be wrong. I do think he has value in a leadership role and transmitting "Spurs Culture" to guys like Murray, who will not experience a team helmed by Timmy. On that note, I do believe that Pau is the best conceivable replacement we could get for Tim. While not steeped in Spurs Culture, he is very Spursy and will help to fill a tiny part of the leadership void.
Pau is definitely an NBA champion and a competitor. He will get on LMA for example, I am hoping, in the positive sense. That aspect of Pau I like. He won't just fold if you take my meaning.

For Manu, all this may come out like I am sour on Manu, but I am not. I am just really hoping that Pop realizes that he has to place his youngest players in a position to be successful or we are not really doing anything this season or the next.

[Ditty]

Murray looking comfortable out there now! As I said once he has a feel for the game he will be fine.

[Obstructed_View]

Your thread backfired :lol literally, no one backed you up.

Thats why you stopped doing game evaluations, lol.

I stopped doing game evaluations because all the player fans who pass judgment bitched about it. Just because you're not the only idiot doesn't mean you're not an idiot.

[Ditty]

Holy shit Simmons! You can't teach athleticism like that.

[robert1886]

Defense is terrible this game

[Keepin' it real]

Maybe NBATV will show the game later. That you tube link is unwatchable.

[Obstructed_View]

Holy shit Simmons! You can't teach athleticism like that.

The pursuit block is by far his best skill. Too bad he either has to miss a long jumper or turn the ball over in order to facilitate it. :lol

[Chinook]

These are the worst announcers ever. Of all teams to have to hear biased commentary about, the fucking Wolves?

[Obstructed_View]

Maybe NBATV will show the game later. That you tube link is unwatchable.

The ESPN3 feed is really good.

[dabom]

Your thread backfired :lol literally, no one backed you up.

Thats why you stopped doing game evaluations, lol.

Obstructedfaggot "Tony Porker gets a 10/10 +A" :lol

[Obstructed_View]

These are the worst announcers ever. Of all teams to have to hear biased commentary about, the fucking Wolves?

Isn't this the Lakers PbP guy?

[Hoops Czar]

Is the playoffs double elimination or one and done?

[Chinook]

Isn't this the Lakers PbP guy?

Joel Myers?

[Ditty]

The pursuit block is by far his best skill. Too bad he either has to miss a long jumper or turn the ball over in order to facilitate it. :lol

It is! His jumper looks better though. His feel for the game isn't very good. Needs to stop trying to do too much. He isn't that gifted.

[lilbthebasedgod]

Lol at simmons

[Obstructed_View]

Is the playoffs double elimination or one and done?

I think there's a loser's bracket so the teams can all have extra games.

[Ditty]

That Euro step!

[Obstructed_View]

Joel Myers?

Thank you. Yeah, it sounds like him. At least on the ESPN3 feed. Which one are you hearing?

[Snaq O'Meal]

Looks like this is gonna be a very short summer league outing for the Spurs. Poor Becky was supposed to form a sculpture from a pile of shit.

[Hoops Czar]

I think there's a loser's bracket so the teams can all have extra games.

Thanks!

[Obstructed_View]

It is! His jumper looks better though. His feel for the game isn't very good. Needs to stop trying to do too much. He isn't that gifted.

His form always looks fine, but he's still really really streaky. I agree about his feel. I wish he could play even a little bit of defense too.

[Chinook]

Thank you. Yeah, it sounds like him. At least on the ESPN3 feed. Which one are you hearing?

Is he a Laker's guy? I think he does Packers or Vikings NFL games, so I assumed he stayed up in that area.

[Obstructed_View]

Thanks!

I've been trying to find it after I posted it, and I can't find confirmation of that. The bracket just shows the teams that move on, so maybe everyone goes home. That would kind of suck.

[T Park]

Joel Meyers is the Pelicans's PBP guy now.

[Chinook]

I think there's a loser's bracket so the teams can all have extra games.

Consolation round. Only one more game if the Spurs lose this one.

[Solid D]

Joel keeps calling Murray "Jevonte." lol

[Obstructed_View]

Is he a Laker's guy? I think he does Packers or Vikings NFL games, so I assumed he stayed up in that area.

Wikipedia says he's with the Pels now. I didn't know that. He used to be with the Spurs, right?

[Obstructed_View]

Consolation round. Only one more game if the Spurs lose this one.

Thank you. The NBA put as little work into the SL website as they could.

[TheGreatYacht]

Obstructedfaggot "Tony Porker gets a 10/10 +A" :lol
:lol

[Chinook]

Wikipedia says he's with the Pels now. I didn't know that. He used to be with the Spurs, right?

So he says. Doesn't stop him from spouting cliches, though.

[Obstructed_View]

Joel keeps calling Murray "Jevonte." lol

The play by play guy for Utah called Kawhi "Kwame".

[Darius Bieber]

I really like Arcidiacono.

[Solid D]

The play by play guy for Utah called Kawhi "Kwame".

Haha yeah. Joel can keep calling him Jevonte until Murray earns name.

[Spurs Brazil]

Wikipedia says he's with the Pels now. I didn't know that. He used to be with the Spurs, right?

Yes, the 1st time ILP was available here in Brazil in 2001 he was with the Spurs.

[Keepin' it real]

So what's the score?

[Solid D]

LJC setting screen = piece of paper turned sideways

[Keepin' it real]

LJC setting screen = piece of paper turned sideways

Damn he's tough. A former coworker sliced her eyeball that way. It was nasty.

[Chinook]

Yeah, I think LJC is closer to being a rotation player than Murray is. Dude is the type of player that will look pretty much the same no matter what the level of competition is. He looks like a fringe SL guy, and he'd look like a fringe NBA player. But that's actually a huge increase in talent level. He doesn't seem to know where he's going some of the time, but that won't be a problem once he gets practice time. What I can see is that he's pretty smart. He knows when to switch, how to set screens off the ball, when to dive. The issue is that the SL team isn't about that, especially this year. He's not going to do well without a read-and-react flow and without chemistry with his teammates. But once all that gets sorted out, he'll be good. Hopefully, he and Murray work off each other in Austin this year.

[John Petrucci]

Murray's got a nice euro step.

[SAGirl]

So what's the score?
76-67 Wolves still a winnable game

[Keepin' it real]

76-67 Wolves still a winnable game

Thanks

[robert1886]

Simmons 3...smh

[ace3g]

9 pt game

[SAGirl]

Minnesota maybe showcasing Payne?

[TheGreatYacht]

Murray does all that dribbling and then settles for a bad shot, meanwhile Simmons gets to the paint at will.

[Richie]

Yeah, I think LJC is closer to being a rotation player than Murray is. Dude is the type of player that will look pretty much the same no matter what the level of competition is. He looks like a fringe SL guy, and he'd look like a fringe NBA player. But that's actually a huge increase in talent level. He doesn't seem to know where he's going some of the time, but that won't be a problem once he gets practice time. What I can see is that he's pretty smart. He knows when to switch, how to set screens off the ball, when to dive. The issue is that the SL team isn't about that, especially this year. He's not going to do well without a read-and-react flow and without chemistry with his teammates. But once all that gets sorted out, he'll be good. Hopefully, he and Murray work off each other in Austin this year.

Murray will get more minutes in the NBA than Jean-Charles this season, guaranteed. Neither will get many but frankly Jean-Charles might not even see the floor this year.

[SAGirl]

Simmons 3...smh
He can get to the basket and finish though... if he's going to be strictly spotting up what is the point? I do think his best asset is being able to score. He's definitely a shooting guard.

[robert1886]

Murray does all that dribbling and then settles for a bad shot, meanwhile Simmons gets to the paint at will.
Simmons can't shoot worth a crap . All that driving doesn't mean anything when in the nba they will just make him shoot

[SAGirl]

Simmons can't shoot worth a crap . All that driving doesn't mean anything when in the nba they will just make him shoot
He's reworked his shot. I hope for us that his shooting comes around. He was hitting the midrange well in other games. He might be a streaky shooter for all we know, he doesn't shoot enough.

[robert1886]

He can get to the basket and finish though... if he's going to be strictly spotting up what is the point? I do think his best asset is being able to score. He's definitely a shooting guard.
Nobody has ever questioned his ability to drive but he can't shoot . If he wants to get a lot more playing time he needs to have a decent consistency going . You can tell he's tries to penetrate and draw players which he does but his passing is really off .

[Darius Bieber]

Spurs lost to the worst team in the Vegas Summer League. Fitting. Time to shut this thread down.

[Richie]

Murray does all that dribbling and then settles for a bad shot, meanwhile Simmons gets to the paint at will.

Murray gets in to the paint better than Simmons, his herky-jerky style is excellent for his age. He shies away from contact because he needs to get bigger and his shot selection will take time but his impressive.

[Hoops Czar]

Murray will get more minutes in the NBA than Jean-Charles this season, guaranteed. Neither will get many but frankly Jean-Charles might not even see the floor this year.

I will be shocked if Murray doesn't play for Austin next season.

[TheGreatYacht]

Simmons can't shoot worth a crap . All that driving doesn't mean anything when in the nba they will just make him shoot
Shot 38.3% from three last year, but okay don't know why you brought that up

[SPURt]

That was fun, nice to hear the announcers love on Murray. I hope their optimism is well placed.

[SAGirl]

Nobody has ever questioned his ability to drive but he can't shoot . If he wants to get a lot more playing time he needs to have a decent consistency going . You can tell he's tries to penetrate and draw players which he does but his passing is really off .
Agreed on that.

[Chinook]

Murray will get more minutes in the NBA than Jean-Charles this season, guaranteed. Neither will get many but frankly Jean-Charles might not even see the floor this year.

Good to see you around again. I don't disagree about Murray seeing more time. But he has a long way to go, both physically and mentally. LJC just has to learn the system. Getting a good shot would be awesome, too. But he's easily the best defender on this squad now that Anderson is off the team.

[SAGirl]

Dare I say it, when you lose a SL MVP it shows. He dominated last season when he was 21 and was on his way to do the same, that is why he was pulled.

[tholdren]

Murray will get more minutes in the NBA than Jean-Charles this season, guaranteed. Neither will get many but frankly Jean-Charles might not even see the floor this year.
And he shouldn't - really no one on this summer league team should. Quite frankly they all look like shit. The summer league should be a great example to all of spurs talk about the context of a game. Sure simmons, anderson, and sometimes forbes lead in scoring, but watching them play is absolutely gut wrenching. Spurs smartest player is Ryan Arcidiocono, and watching some of the anti-fundamental stuff he does is like living in bizarro world. I have never seen an aspiring NBA player, PG no less, dribble to a trap spot and pick up his dribble. I saw this out of AT LEAST 4 different Spurs players including simmons. These bums jump in the air to throw as pass. Stokes and Lorbek are slower than Anderson. Terrible product.

[TheGreatYacht]

Murray gets in to the paint better than Simmons, his herky-jerky style is excellent for his age. He shies away from contact because he needs to get bigger and his shot selection will take time but his impressive.
Someone posted his points per possession earlier, and it was the worst among all rookies in the summer league. So far he can't shoot, he can't finish, and he needs to work on getting more assists than turnovers.

We better hope Parker and Mills stay healthy next year because he's not ready YET.

[ducks]

simmons had 2 turnovers and was 9-16 did not watch was 0-2 from deep

[ducks]

Someone posted his points per possession earlier, and it was the worst among all rookies in the summer league. So far he can't shoot, he can't finish, and he needs to work on getting more assists than turnovers.

We better hope Parker and Mills stay healthy next year because he's not ready YET.
DUH he has no training camp yet and I wonder how many actually practices he has had with spurs

[ace3g]

Disappointing that Bertans hasn't played yet, unless that was by design, and the Spurs just wanted him around the coaches/system.

[ducks]

I really hope the young guns are healthy for practice and training camp

[robert1886]

Shot 38.3% from three last year, but okay don't know why you brought that up

This summer : Utah- 2/10
vegas- 1/8
Total-3/18=16.66%

His midrange isn't so bad but he has no confidence in his 3 and it's obvious once he gets in 3 point area his form seems off maybe he is just thinking too much.

[BillMc]

Any chance Bertans will be signed and play tonight?

[SAGirl]

Disappointing that Bertans hasn't played yet, unless that was by design, and the Spurs just wanted him around the coaches/system.
I read earlier in this thread that there were contract issues holding him back. Kind of disappointing that the Spurs seem like they will have an early out bc it may be that contract issue is not resolved in time to see him. But fingers crossed we do.

[SAGirl]

Any chance Bertans will be signed and play tonight?
Nope game was already played:
http://www.nba.com/games/20160713/MINSAS/gameinfo.html?ls=iref:nba:scoreboard

[SAGirl]

MINNESOTA TIMBERWOLVES (1-3)


FIELD GOALSREBOUNDS



POS
MIN
FGM-A
3PM-A
FTM-A
+/-
OFF
DEF
TOT
AST
PF
ST
TO
BS
BA
PTS


S. Suggs (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_scott_suggs/index.html)
F
28:10
2-7
0-2
0-0
+7
1
5
6
1
2
0
1
0
0
4


D. Thomas (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_devin_thomas/index.html)
F
18:05
4-6
0-0
1-2
+6
3
2
5
0
4
1
0
1
1
9


A. Payne (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_adreian_payne/index.html)
C
31:21
8-16
0-3
4-6
+13
2
5
7
2
1
1
1
2
0
20


X. Silas (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_xavier_silas/index.html)
G
31:50
3-8
2-7
2-2
+7
0
4
4
2
0
1
0
0
0
10


T. Jones (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_tyus_jones/index.html)
G
33:05
5-13
3-6
2-3
+13
1
2
3
9
0
2
1
0
0
15


T. Murry (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_toure_murry/index.html)

21:42
3-8
0-3
0-0
0
0
4
4
2
2
0
2
0
0
6


C. Clarke (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_coty_clarke/index.html)

20:42
6-11
1-5
3-3
+6
1
3
4
0
2
1
1
0
0
16


K. Punter (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_kevin_punter/index.html)

05:12
0-1
0-0
0-0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


J. Famous (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_jarrid_famous/index.html)

09:53
0-3
0-0
0-0
-7
1
2
3
0
2
1
0
1
0
0


K. Benson (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_keith_benson/index.html)
DNP - COACH'S DECISION


M. Deng (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_majok_deng/index.html)
DNP - COACH'S DECISION


K. Dunn (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_kris_dunn/index.html)
DNP - COACH'S DECISION


Total

200
31-73
6-26
12-16

9
27
36
16
13
7
6
4
1
80



42.5%
23.1%
75.0%

TEAM REBS: 12
TOTAL TO: 8




SAN ANTONIO SPURS (2-2)


FIELD GOALSREBOUNDS



POS
MIN
FGM-A
3PM-A
FTM-A
+/-
OFF
DEF
TOT
AST
PF
ST
TO
BS
BA
PTS


J. Simmons (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_jonathon_simmons/index.html)
F
28:21
9-16
0-2
1-2
-4
0
2
2
1
3
0
2
0
1
19


J. Stokes (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_jarnell_stokes/index.html)
F
18:20
3-8
0-0
3-3
-1
4
4
8
1
4
1
1
0
0
9


C. Lalanne (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_cady_lalanne/index.html)
C
15:57
2-3
0-0
0-0
+4
1
5
6
0
3
0
1
0
1
4


D. Murray (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_dejounte_murray/index.html)
G
28:17
5-15
1-5
3-3
-4
2
4
6
1
1
2
2
0
1
14


B. Forbes (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_bryn_forbes/index.html)
G
26:30
2-9
1-4
0-0
0
0
3
3
1
0
0
0
0
0
5


L. Jean Charles (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_livio_jean_charles/index.html)

14:37
2-3
0-0
0-0
-17
1
1
2
1
1
0
1
1
0
4


C. Williams (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_cj_williams/index.html)

18:14
3-8
3-6
2-3
-7
1
2
3
0
2
0
0
0
0
11


O. Hanlan (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_olivier_hanlan/index.html)

06:47
0-1
0-0
0-0
-6
0
0
0
0
1
0
1
0
0
0


W. Cummings (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_will_cummings/index.html)

03:27
0-0
0-0
0-0
-5
0
0
0
1
0
0
0
0
0
0


R. Arcidiacono (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_ryan_arcidiacono/index.html)

17:57
1-4
0-1
0-0
-5
4
1
5
2
3
0
3
0
0
2


J. Washburn (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_julian_washburn/index.html)

16:42
1-5
0-2
1-1
-1
0
6
6
1
0
0
0
0
1
3


Y. Ndoye (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_youssou_ndoye/index.html)

04:51
0-0
0-0
0-0
+1
0
2
2
0
2
0
0
0
0
0


K. Anderson (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_kyle_anderson/index.html)
NWT - COACH'S DECISION


D. Bertans (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_davis_bertans/index.html)
NWT - COACH'S DECISION


Q. DeCosey (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_quenton_decosey/index.html)
DNP - COACH'S DECISION


I. Gromovs (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_ilja_gromovs/index.html)
DNP - COACH'S DECISION


E. Lorbek (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_erazem_lorbek/index.html)
DNP - COACH'S DECISION


L. Nnoko (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_landry_nnoko/index.html)
DNP - COACH'S DECISION


A. Rodriguez (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/sl_angel_rodriguez/index.html)
DNP - COACH'S DECISION


Total

200
28-72
5-20
10-12

13
30
43
9
20
3
11
1
4
71



38.9%
25.0%
83.3%

TEAM REBS: 1
TOTAL TO: 11

[BillMc]

Nope game was already played:
http://www.nba.com/games/20160713/MINSAS/gameinfo.html?ls=iref:nba:scoreboard

Oops. :lol Clueless me. Thanks!

[siraulo23]

Once again, no back to back for the spurs

[Hoops Czar]

Wow, LJC's -17 sticking out like a sore thumb. :lol

[SAGirl]

Once again, no back to back for the spurs
True spurs hah?

[tonight...you]

I'm saying he's whole first season will be in the D- league getting over himself an getting his bbiq up. You know I ain't lying. I know he's young, so I expect all that. But I thought, he'd play this yr.... He won't. Not for Pop!
The kid's a kid. You knew that going in. It's not his fault. He's under the best development team he can possibly be in. Relax my brother. We warriors together, but let's not let children die upon their shield before they're ready to hold it.

[Kawhitstorm]

LJC already giving up offensive rebounds. What a terrible rebounder for his size and length

Dude is a poor man's Luc Mbah a Moute who has been a pretty mediocre rebounder as a PF.

[tonight...you]

He was ready to start only a few games ago.
Lol. So true. Almost got dem allstar votes to make it too, if the voting would have started and ended that day.

[alpha_HaZE]

I think it's pretty obvious that Murray needs 1) add strength w/o losing his speed and leaping ability, and 2) work on his shoot. I do remember there were similar concerns about KL, and look at him now being one of the best 3pt shooters in the NBA. Dejounte seems motivated enough to put the work in. He is an exciting project! But as we all know if he wants to stay on the floor with Pop, he needs to play defense. Can he? Tony, Manu, and Patty are all defensive liabilities, we don't need another one.

[ElNono]

welp, had to work late today... anything noteworthy this game?

[tonight...you]

welp, had to work late today... anything noteworthy this game?
Just some creative complaining. Some good stuff in there.

[tonight...you]

I think it's pretty obvious that Murray needs 1) add strength w/o losing his speed and leaping ability, and 2) work on his shoot. I do remember there were similar concerns about KL, and look at him now being one of the best 3pt shooters in the NBA. Dejounte seems motivated enough to put the work in. He is an exciting project! But as we all know if he wants to stay on the floor with Pop, he needs to play defense. Can he? Tony, Manu, and Patty are all defensive liabilities, we don't need another one.
Nothing to worry about Dijon right now. The thing will be watching him in next year's summer league . Then we'll see a more decent baseline for improvement and what curve we may have to expect from him.

[ElNono]

Pop will have to design a system that takes advantage of his best players. That is all am saying. If he doesn't get the best out of the young players that he has right now, the team isn't going anywhere. That does require that they get the ball in places they can do something with it (as opposed to spotting up if you are not ideally a spot up shooter, or cutting if you are not a cutter, but Kyle improving the 3 means that he can fit in many more things than he could previously and he will be able to open up the floor for others' running plays and benefitting with open shots for himself.) Just shooting the 3 is unlikely to be all he can do, bc he's a very good passer and with both Diaw and West missing, he will get the ball to find cutters as well as attack for himself much more than you saw previously. Not saying the whole thing will revolve around him or what Simmons can do, but what players call their games will be added into the mix... and Manu has to adapt too. Maybe he's the one cutting and screening more. Maybe he's the one spotting up more. Etc.

I have zero doubts he'll get his chance this year. He has to, this is what they've been working on for 2 seasons.

[ElNono]

Kawhi was CLEARLY a better player than Kyle Anderson from the beginning.

Kyle may still not know who he is as a player. All that point-forward bullshit didn't help him out. All the talk about him replacing Manu as the first guy off the bench, and facilitating the offense (even remotely like Manu) didn't help, either. And talking about him being a high-post player "like LeBron"? Poop. That's like saying that Boban is a dominating NBA center, because of what he did in garbage time.

Anderson is probably going to get pressed into service more this year. We'll see how much he's developed then.

Pretty much how I feel, and I don't think any of that is a dig on Anderson. He's got a lot to prove at the NBA level, and that doesn't mean he sucks. There's nothing wrong with that. I hope it works out. He definitely put in the work.

[ElNono]

Just some creative complaining. Some good stuff in there.

thanks

[TheGreatYacht]

Dude is a poor man's Luc Mbah a Moute who has been a pretty mediocre rebounder as a PF.
That's what I said earlier too :lol :toast

[Keepin' it real]

The kid's a kid. You knew that going in...

Lol, this clip comes to mind: :lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4eeeCnSkmc

[raybies]

I was really disappointed with the way they played. So many turnovers, bad shots, and just plain missed wide open shots. I guess Murray and Simmons had decent games but we could of used another shooter tonight if you catch my riff. Someone who could knock down a shot. Sheesh. Maybe they were fatigued. It was alot of games but oh well. It's just summer league.

[Snaq O'Meal]

I was really disappointed with the way they played. So many turnovers, bad shots, and just plain missed wide open shots. I guess Murray and Simmons had decent games but we could of used another shooter tonight if you catch my riff. Someone who could knock down a shot. Sheesh. Maybe they were fatigued. It was alot of games but oh well. It's just summer league.

Shooters still need someone with decent BBIQ to get them the ball in their preferred spots. Unfortunately, with Anderson's departure, the Spurs have no more of that on the team.

[dbestpro]

Nothing to worry about Dijon right now. The thing will be watching him in next year's summer league . Then we'll see a more decent baseline for improvement and what curve we may have to expect from him.

Dijon? I guess his nickname should be mustard seed.

[Solid D]

Even though Forbes has had some missed opportunities to help his team this summer, he is worthy of an investment by the Spurs organization. He will need to work hard but he has a great shooting touch.

LJC just seems to be going through the motions too much and he hasn't really shown a nose for the ball. He's just trying to find his way. Also, I'm not seeing 100% engagement like I'm seeing with some of his teammates getting the big minutes like Lalanne, Simmons, Murray, Arcidiacono, and Forbes.

[TD 21]

The Spurs' bench doesn't have a talent issue at all. There isn't a single player in that second unit who wouldn't be a rotation player on other teams.


I'd take Mbah a Moute in a heartbeat. The Spurs are probably in the Finals if they had him on the team last year.

:lmao

[tonight...you]

Dijon? I guess his nickname should be mustard seed.
lol

[tonight...you]

Lol, this clip comes to mind: :lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4eeeCnSkmc
Love me some Seinfeld.

[apalisoc_9]

:lmao

:lol

Nigga has one of the poorest player evaluations mind in spurstalk.

[GSH]

I think it's pretty obvious that Murray needs 1) add strength w/o losing his speed and leaping ability, and 2) work on his shoot. I do remember there were similar concerns about KL, and look at him now being one of the best 3pt shooters in the NBA. Dejounte seems motivated enough to put the work in. He is an exciting project! But as we all know if he wants to stay on the floor with Pop, he needs to play defense. Can he? Tony, Manu, and Patty are all defensive liabilities, we don't need another one.


You know, pretty much everyone is saying the same thing. Murray isn't ready, and is bound for the D-League. And I think that's probably true. But consider this:

What if Murray's shots had been falling in these SL games? I can tell you what if. He would have been putting up 25 points a game, and people would be talking about how he was the steal of the draft. If he was making shots, most people wouldn't even notice a lot of the other shortcomings.

What I'm saying is that I'm confident that between Chip, and just gaining some confidence, his shooting can be fixed. The other things are a much bigger concern. The problem with putting him in the D-League playing the point is that he'll have a lot of opportunities to reinforce his bad habits. Right now he looks to create for himself, and when it's not there he dumps it off without any apparent plan. The easy thing would be just to slide him to the 2, but I hope they don't do that. And calling him a "combo-guard" amounts to the same thing. It would be an acknowledgement that he isn't really a PG, but put him at the point at times anyway.

Since the Spurs are going to have to be patient and train him anyway, I wish they would work on training him to be a PG. Maybe send him to one of those top-tier consultants (Patty Mills trained with one). He has talent and athleticism, and he seems like he puts in a lot of effort. Even if he never gets to the point of being a legit full-time NBA PG, it would make him a much better combo guard in a couple of years.

He'll still be a disaster at the point, in the D-league. But they can take the pressure off him by telling him that his job for the next year or two is to focus on defense, and learning how to play the point the right way.

[Mr. Body]

You know, pretty much everyone is saying the same thing. Murray isn't ready, and is bound for the D-League. And I think that's probably true. But consider this:

What if Murray's shots had been falling in these SL games? I can tell you what if. He would have been putting up 25 points a game, and people would be talking about how he was the steal of the draft. If he was making shots, most people wouldn't even notice a lot of the other shortcomings.

What I'm saying is that I'm confident that between Chip, and just gaining some confidence, his shooting can be fixed. The other things are a much bigger concern. The problem with putting him in the D-League playing the point is that he'll have a lot of opportunities to reinforce his bad habits. Right now he looks to create for himself, and when it's not there he dumps it off without any apparent plan. The easy thing would be just to slide him to the 2, but I hope they don't do that. And calling him a "combo-guard" amounts to the same thing. It would be an acknowledgement that he isn't really a PG, but put him at the point at times anyway.

Since the Spurs are going to have to be patient and train him anyway, I wish they would work on training him to be a PG. Maybe send him to one of those top-tier consultants (Patty Mills trained with one). He has talent and athleticism, and he seems like he puts in a lot of effort. Even if he never gets to the point of being a legit full-time NBA PG, it would make him a much better combo guard in a couple of years.

He'll still be a disaster at the point, in the D-league. But they can take the pressure off him by telling him that his job for the next year or two is to focus on defense, and learning how to play the point the right way.

I'm bullish about Murray, provided he maintains a positive attitude. His misses in the SL were clearly for two reasons (with some suspect shot selection, but that's okay at this point). One, his outside shot needs fixing. It can be fixed. There's nothing in it that doesn't look fixable. Two, he needs to get stronger. There were multiple times each game where he failed to convert near the basket because he got bumped off.

I have no doubt those two things can be corrected. He'll learn how to take contact better and convert.

I also don't really doubt he'll be a good point guard. Maybe not pass-first, as a natural skill, but he doesn't look bad in that regard, either. He doesn't seem to be primarily a chucker. Besides, we've been running with Parker as the drink-stirrer for a long, long time. The Spurs don't require a set-up PG.

In all, I liked the pick, still like the pick, and still think it could be a Corey Joseph timeline for him. I expect him to get some burn during the season but mostly in the DL and lots of inconsistency.

[Obstructed_View]

Shot 38.3% from three last year, but okay don't know why you brought that up

Maybe because he was supposed to have worked on his three pointer during the offseason and he's shooting 18 percent in the summer league?

[Obstructed_View]

Pretty much how I feel, and I don't think any of that is a dig on Anderson. He's got a lot to prove at the NBA level, and that doesn't mean he sucks. There's nothing wrong with that. I hope it works out. He definitely put in the work.

Anderson's big thing is going to be his defense anyway. Either it was a fluke last year when teams suddenly started scoring when he game into the game, or he's a legitimately bad defender who grinds the team to a halt. We will find out for sure one way or the other this year.

[Obstructed_View]

You know, pretty much everyone is saying the same thing. Murray isn't ready, and is bound for the D-League. And I think that's probably true. But consider this:

What if Murray's shots had been falling in these SL games? I can tell you what if. He would have been putting up 25 points a game, and people would be talking about how he was the steal of the draft. If he was making shots, most people wouldn't even notice a lot of the other shortcomings.

What I'm saying is that I'm confident that between Chip, and just gaining some confidence, his shooting can be fixed. The other things are a much bigger concern. The problem with putting him in the D-League playing the point is that he'll have a lot of opportunities to reinforce his bad habits. Right now he looks to create for himself, and when it's not there he dumps it off without any apparent plan. The easy thing would be just to slide him to the 2, but I hope they don't do that. And calling him a "combo-guard" amounts to the same thing. It would be an acknowledgement that he isn't really a PG, but put him at the point at times anyway.

Since the Spurs are going to have to be patient and train him anyway, I wish they would work on training him to be a PG. Maybe send him to one of those top-tier consultants (Patty Mills trained with one). He has talent and athleticism, and he seems like he puts in a lot of effort. Even if he never gets to the point of being a legit full-time NBA PG, it would make him a much better combo guard in a couple of years.

He'll still be a disaster at the point, in the D-league. But they can take the pressure off him by telling him that his job for the next year or two is to focus on defense, and learning how to play the point the right way.

You hit it. The biggest problem of summer league is that there are a dozen guys auditioning for a job, and sometimes it feels like nobody wants to set up someone else for a nice shot or set a pick for them when they can just shoot it themselves. Seeing someone calm enough to stay in their position, move the ball around, not force the issue, and do things for the good of the team despite the fact that it may not get them numbers on the box score is both rare and refreshing. The D League isn't much better. If you want a guy to work on fixing bad habits, it might not be the place. We might see Murray getting sent down to stay in shape and work on things, then called back for a time so he can be with the team.

Personally, I don't care whether his shots go in at this point. Physically you can see that he's got legitimate NBA potential, and as Body says, he doesn't have to be a traditional point guard to succeed in the Spurs' system.

[r0drig0lac]

then Luc is the difference between falling to OKC or reach the finals ?? fuck this shit

[Keepin' it real]

So only one more SL game for the Spurs? When and against whom?

[tmtcsc]

After the loss in Rd.1 to the Wolves, are the Summer Spurs done? Are their any consolation games for Bertans to get some play (pending contract crap)?

[jyra]

The last game is tomorrow at 4 PM ET against Sacramento.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Why is it that the issue now is contractual issues with Bertans when there have been other players who have played for the Spurs without any contract issues? For example, why was Dejounte able to play despite barely being official today, and Bertans has to wait still?

[Solid D]

Why is it that the issue now is contractual issues with Bertans when there have been other players who have played for the Spurs without any contract issues? For example, why was Dejounte able to play despite barely being official today, and Bertans has to wait still?

Pau officially signed today, 7/14. That was likely the hold-up for Bertans. He can be signed now. Bertans' insurance was an issue pre-signing.

[picnroll]

Doubt the Spurs see anything to be gained by Bertrans playing one SL game.

[Chinook]

Pau officially signed today, 7/14. That was likely the hold-up for Bertans. He can be signed now. Bertans' insurance was an issue pre-signing.

Pau and Bertans don't conflict. They both are on the same tier of signings. It's odd that Murray signed first, because he's on the second tier. I think the holdup for Bertans was seeing if the team needed cap space for anything else before they went over the cap.

[Solid D]

Pau and Bertans don't conflict. They both are on the same tier of signings. It's odd that Murray signed first, because he's on the second tier. I think the holdup for Bertans was seeing if the team needed cap space for anything else before they went over the cap.

Could be. Manu is not officially signed yet, as well, but he will probably be signed last.

[picnroll]

Garcia saying Spurs likely renounced Bonner and
even with Gasol before signing Manu have about $20 million in cap space. I'm confused.

[Chinook]

Garcia saying Spurs likely renounced Bonner and
even with Gasol before signing Manu have about $20 million in cap space. I'm confused.

He says they're under the tax, not the cap, by that amount. And renouncing Bonner means zilch. Dude was never getting more than the min.

[Richie]

Someone posted his points per possession earlier, and it was the worst among all rookies in the summer league. So far he can't shoot, he can't finish, and he needs to work on getting more assists than turnovers.

We better hope Parker and Mills stay healthy next year because he's not ready YET.

Absolutely, he's minimum 1 year away from even being a 10th man. The reason I'm so excited is because I already see a lot of Manu in his game. He makes passes that other guys don't even see, and that Eurostep is legit already. He needs to get stronger obviously, you can he takes tough floaters because he can't finish through contact at the rim, but that floater is already a legit weapon. When he learns to combine it with some strength and hopefully a respectable jump shot he has all star potential.

If he's willing to accept the role he will make for an excellent 6th man to run the second unit.

[Richie]

Good to see you around again. I don't disagree about Murray seeing more time. But he has a long way to go, both physically and mentally. LJC just has to learn the system. Getting a good shot would be awesome, too. But he's easily the best defender on this squad now that Anderson is off the team.

Thanks man. Unquestionably Murray needs work but honestly I think Jean-Charles is only here because he is due his guaranteed money. If he was a second rounder the Spurs would have left him in Europe indefinitely, I have very low expectations of him going forward. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

Murray is the most exciting draft pick we've had for a long time. I'm genuinely more excited for him than I was Leonard, you can just see how much talent is there. He could end up a bust or he could become the next Manu.

[raybies]

Rewatched the game vs the Wolves and here's some thoughts

Murray had his best game of the Summer League and here's why: he didn't have his best shooting performance, but he took care of the ball for the most part and facilitated very well. He would have had more assists if his teammates just finished. I counted three or four instances he fed the open man for an uncontested shot or path to the basket. He also picked and chose his times to create and when to take over, namely the third when the Summer Spurs needed a spark and was just that. Something that I worry about early on is the potential streakiness and confidence. I really hope he is not a streaky player, but as for confidence, on one shot he missed he looked down and ran up the court. I remember saying keep your head up. So his shooting right now is a little mental, which luckily for us practice with Chip for a year could be a remedy.

It might of been best to sit Kyle at the start of the Las Vegas Summer League like some of us wanted, that way it'd give the remaining roster a chance to gel and figure things out before the games that counted but winning is not the most important thing here, it's development, so I understand. I just want to see more Spurs play, Summer or NBA. Anyways Kyle has been severely missed. We are 0-2 without him and if it weren't for us playing the Kings we might go 0-3.

I thought Jonathon Simmons has really turned around his performance the last three games. He's been much more efficient and settled especially on drives. I see him using pull-ups more and kicking it out more as opposed to just putting his head down and going to the rim and everyone else be damned. His drives have looked more in control and because of which his turnovers have went down and by that I mean the ones when just drives and unexplainably loses it. He still needs to work on his touch with passing. May just be something we have to live with but he routinely sails a pass out of bounds that has no chance. He had one to Murray this game and one to Forbes last game. Overall, I've been impressed with him and the change in the last three games. Much better. Maybe something finally clicked.

While I have been a defender of Livio Jean-Charles, I definitely can understand the fuss about him. He doesn't produce well for the amount of time he plays, he doesn't give the full amount of effort on some possessions, and he doesn't rebound outside of his area. The only thing that I can say positive about him that may of not been mentioned before is that he's a playmaker. He makes plays on the defensive end and that is valuable. Not bad for a last big off the bench. When he is dialed in, he's useful but when he's getting beat just on physicality that's a tough sell, since if Anderson is getting beat defensively by a bigger player, you need him to be able to play.

I still think Forbes, is the best player to make the team outside the stashes. His defense has been a bit of a surprise. He's no slouch and hustles. While I won't call him a lockdown defender, he has shown the required effort and lateral skills to keep up. As for his shooting, I just think it's hard to see his value here without someone to get him the ball. With Kyle in Utah, he had some of his best games. When Murray came on he had some of his worst games, since there were too many ball dominant players that couldn't find him. Sure he has missed some shots he could of easily made but I think in a Danny Green type role he could be special and make a career. After all he is an amazing shooter. With the Big Spurs he'll get plenty of open looks and as long as he can consistently knock down a majority of them, he has a shot.

[TheGreatYacht]

Absolutely, he's minimum 1 year away from even being a 10th man. The reason I'm so excited is because I already see a lot of Manu in his game. He makes passes that other guys don't even see, and that Eurostep is legit already. He needs to get stronger obviously, you can he takes tough floaters because he can't finish through contact at the rim, but that floater is already a legit weapon. When he learns to combine it with some strength and hopefully a respectable jump shot he has all star potential.

If he's willing to accept the role he will make for an excellent 6th man to run the second unit.
Agreed, I really like the pick. In his second year he'll probably be the backup point with Mills most likely gone, then he'll most likely take over Parker's spot in his third year.

Chip is going to have his hands full next year with all these new players coming in :lol

[SAGirl]

Rewatched the game vs the Wolves and here's some thoughts

Murray had his best game of the Summer League and here's why: he didn't have his best shooting performance, but he took care of the ball for the most part and facilitated very well. He would have had more assists if his teammates just finished. I counted three or four instances he fed the open man for an uncontested shot or path to the basket. He also picked and chose his times to create and when to take over, namely the third when the Summer Spurs needed a spark and was just that. Something that I worry about early on is the potential streakiness and confidence. I really hope he is not a streaky player, but as for confidence, on one shot he missed he looked down and ran up the court. I remember saying keep your head up. So his shooting right now is a little mental, which luckily for us practice with Chip for a year could be a remedy.

It might of been best to sit Kyle at the start of the Las Vegas Summer League like some of us wanted, that way it'd give the remaining roster a chance to gel and figure things out before the games that counted but winning is not the most important thing here, it's development, so I understand. I just want to see more Spurs play, Summer or NBA. Anyways Kyle has been severely missed. We are 0-2 without him and if it weren't for us playing the Kings we might go 0-3.

I thought Jonathon Simmons has really turned around his performance the last three games. He's been much more efficient and settled especially on drives. I see him using pull-ups more and kicking it out more as opposed to just putting his head down and going to the rim and everyone else be damned. His drives have looked more in control and because of which his turnovers have went down and by that I mean the ones when just drives and unexplainably loses it. He still needs to work on his touch with passing. May just be something we have to live with but he routinely sails a pass out of bounds that has no chance. He had one to Murray this game and one to Forbes last game. Overall, I've been impressed with him and the change in the last three games. Much better. Maybe something finally clicked.

While I have been a defender of Livio Jean-Charles, I definitely can understand the fuss about him. He doesn't produce well for the amount of time he plays, he doesn't give the full amount of effort on some possessions, and he doesn't rebound outside of his area. The only thing that I can say positive about him that may of not been mentioned before is that he's a playmaker. He makes plays on the defensive end and that is valuable. Not bad for a last big off the bench. When he is dialed in, he's useful but when he's getting beat just on physicality that's a tough sell, since if Anderson is getting beat defensively by a bigger player, you need him to be able to play.

I still think Forbes, is the best player to make the team outside the stashes. His defense has been a bit of a surprise. He's no slouch and hustles. While I won't call him a lockdown defender, he has shown the required effort and lateral skills to keep up. As for his shooting, I just think it's hard to see his value here without someone to get him the ball. With Kyle in Utah, he had some of his best games. When Murray came on he had some of his worst games, since there were too many ball dominant players that couldn't find him. Sure he has missed some shots he could of easily made but I think in a Danny Green type role he could be special and make a career. After all he is an amazing shooter. With the Big Spurs he'll get plenty of open looks and as long as he can consistently knock down a majority of them, he has a shot.
Thank for sharing Raybies. Much appreciated. I agree with your observations pretty much and appreciate them bc this was a game that I caught on and off bc there were things going on at home. Like you I agree Jon has improved but his passing is erratic and his 3 pts shot has been off. It's possible reworking it with Chip threw him off. His definite best asset is attacking the basket, but we already knew that. :tu. :flag:

[montgod]

Thanks man. Unquestionably Murray needs work but honestly I think Jean-Charles is only here because he is due his guaranteed money. If he was a second rounder the Spurs would have left him in Europe indefinitely, I have very low expectations of him going forward. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

Murray is the most exciting draft pick we've had for a long time. I'm genuinely more excited for him than I was Leonard, you can just see how much talent is there. He could end up a bust or he could become the next Manu.

Yeah I am hopeful Murray will improve.

LJC, just not confident he will change too much. He could easily be thrown in if some type of trade ever materialized... but my guess is he will be a one year player if he doesn't get stronger in any one area.

[Solid D]

Those deserving of contracts and training camp slots based on their effort and play in SL (not including Simmons and Anderson) are: Arcidiacono, Forbes, Murray, and Lalanne (gets the nod over LJC for me, although LJC needs Austin Toros work). Bertans will be there, too, of course. Stokes played pretty well but he might get more opportunity elsewhere.

[picnroll]

Rich getting richer. Definitely looks like GS got a steal in McCaw.

[TheGreatYacht]

TWolves' 3rd string PG, Tyus Jones taking over the SL.
:wow 26pts, 4reb, 10ast, 9-15fg

They're definitely not giving up Dieng for Patty Mills.

[GSH]

Those deserving of contracts and training camp slots based on their effort and play in SL (not including Simmons and Anderson) are: Arcidiacono, Forbes, Murray, and Lalanne (gets the nod over LJC for me, although LJC needs Austin Toros work). Bertans will be there, too, of course. Stokes played pretty well but he might get more opportunity elsewhere.


I know we haven't seen a lot out of LJC, but in the limited looks we've had he didn't inspire a lot of confidence. Lalanne has been sort of forgotten here. Like Stokes, he's another one of those young underdog types that I would love to see get a payday somewhere. They both bring a lot of energy, and that's always a plus. Maybe one of them can develop into one of those sparkplug players who come off the bench and get a couple of put-backs, rip a few boards away, and give the team some momentum. I could see at least one of them getting invited to camp. But I have a hard time seeing either one on the roster - and it's a shame.

LJC? I'd sleep better knowing that he has a place with Asvel, and that everybody was happy with that.

[Chinook]

Asvel has pretty much ruined LJC. I never want to see another Spur go back there. I think he would have benefitted from being part of the SL team the whole way through. I didn't see his first stint yesterday, but it I guess it was horrible. His second stint was meh. This third stint was actually good. Put him around guys who are actually looking to run plays, and he'll be good. I actually thought he looked better yesterday than he looked last year.

[Snaq O'Meal]

Asvel has pretty much ruined LJC. I never want to see another Spur go back there. I think he would have benefitted from being part of the SL team the whole way through. I didn't see his first stint yesterday, but it I guess it was horrible. His second stint was meh. This third stint was actually good. Put him around guys who are actually looking to run plays, and he'll be good. I actually thought he looked better yesterday than he looked last year.

I won't be surprised. He showed promise during the 2013 Nike Hoop Summit. But when he joined ASVEL, he's been going downhill ever since. His injury also didn't help matters.

[ElNono]

There was nothing stopping LJC from playing on a better Euro team than Asvel... like Real Madrid, Barcelona, CSKA, etc.... the only reason would be that he just wasn't that good.

[Chinook]

There was nothing stopping LJC from playing on a better Euro team than Asvel... like Real Madrid, Barcelona, CSKA, etc.... the only reason would be that he just wasn't that good.

Um, I mean, he signed a three-year deal with them on the Spurs' request after he was drafted. It's not like you just get to switch teams in the middle of your contract because you've improved. Not that LJC played all that well, mind you. It's just not a valid point to talk about him upgrading from Asvel, in my opinion.

[Chinook]

I won't be surprised. He showed promise during the 2013 Nike Hoop Summit. But when he joined ASVEL, he's been going downhill ever since. His injury also didn't help matters.

Yeah, he tore his ACL like two weeks after getting drafted. That probably wouldn't've changed no matter where he signed. But between the rehab and being caught between positions, I don't think he was developed well at all. I think it's possible the Spurs don't pick up his option if he signed in the NBA right away. But had they stuck with him, I think he would have been a much better player than he is at this point.

[ElNono]

Um, I mean, he signed a three-year deal with them on the Spurs' request after he was drafted. It's not like you just get to switch teams in the middle of your contract because you've improved. Not that LJC played all that well, mind you. It's just not a valid point to talk about him upgrading from Asvel, in my opinion.

That actually happens all the time in Europe. It's pretty common to have buyout clauses and NBA out clauses. Teams like Madrid or Barcelona that have the cash gladly pay them to acquire top talent. Teams over there don't wait for "free agency" like the NBA.
Heck, I'm sure the Spurs would've loved him to play in a more competitive league.

[raybies]

Yeah, he tore his ACL like two weeks after getting drafted. That probably wouldn't've changed no matter where he signed. But between the rehab and being caught between positions, I don't think he was developed well at all. I think it's possible the Spurs don't pick up his option if he signed in the NBA right away. But had they stuck with him, I think he would have been a much better player than he is at this point.

I remember when he tore it. I was following him. He was playing for the national team for his age group and he was dominating, and then he subsequently tore his acl. I felt really bad for him. Some players lose the magic and never get it back. :(

[raybies]

If the Lakers lose with this practical starting lineup I'm gonna :rofl

[Chinook]

That actually happens all the time in Europe. It's pretty common to have buyout clauses and NBA out clauses. Teams like Madrid or Barcelona that have the cash gladly pay them to acquire top talent. Teams over there don't wait for "free agency" like the NBA.
Heck, I'm sure the Spurs would've loved him to play in a more competitive league.

Yes I know this. Did LJC have Europe buyouts? I kinda doubt it. His stashing was an experiment for a psuedo-farm team in Europe. I think it was Spurs or bust for him.

[Chinook]

I remember when he tore it. I was following him. He was playing for the national team for his age group and he was dominating, and then he subsequently tore his acl. I felt really bad for him. Some players lose the magic and never get it back. :(

Gotta work his way back in an organization that will take care of him. There were dudes in this past draft who were older than him. He still has time.

[ElNono]

Yes I know this. Did LJC have Europe buyouts? I kinda doubt it. His stashing was an experiment for a psuedo-farm team in Europe. I think it was Spurs or bust for him.

It's possible. Something I didn't know but I thought was interesting, so I'll share: There's no anti-tampering laws between leagues. Not even in the NBA-FIBA agreement. Imposing such restriction at an international level would likely be construed as an antitrust violation. That's why every team (this applies to soccer too) pretty much always sets a high buyout amount as compensation in case the player is enticed by another team/league.

[objective]

That actually happens all the time in Europe. It's pretty common to have buyout clauses and NBA out clauses. Teams like Madrid or Barcelona that have the cash gladly pay them to acquire top talent. Teams over there don't wait for "free agency" like the NBA.
Heck, I'm sure the Spurs would've loved him to play in a more competitive league.

100%, was just going to post something similar. It's a lot more like soccer.

And ASVEL might have taken the money. Doesn't Parker have an ownership stake? He can't afford keep a nightclub open, he probably wasn't in position to bail the club out of any money troubles.

[raybies]

Gotta work his way back in an organization that will take care of him. There were dudes in this past draft who were older than him. He still has time.

Oh yeah definitely. He has the physical tools. Imo it's confidence he need more of.

[ElNono]

FWIW, here's the full paragraph, extracted from "Handbook on international sports law" on the NBA-FIBA agreement:

The agreement, unlike NBA internal rules, contains no anti-tampering prohibition. That is, it does not proscribe communication between a team and a foreign player about future employment while that player is performing for another employer under an existing contract. Presumably, that omission is deliberate and reflects that the strongest justification for tampering rules - the prevention of the existence or appearance of a conflict of interest within a league - does not apply in a situation of inter-league agreement. Indeed, it's doubtful that a persuasive rationale can be supplied for an international tampering rule, which inhibits negotiations during the tenure of a player's contract. And such rule, which shifts, in a way detrimental to players, the line implicitly drawn by existing contract (and tort) law between constraint and freedom to pursue employment opportunities would likely constitute an antitrust violation.

[objective]

Um, I mean, he signed a three-year deal with them on the Spurs' request after he was drafted..

I was under that impression also but don't remember why, probably some article posted here years ago.

But fwiw, this site has a scouting report on him seemingly pre draft:

http://euroleagueadventures.com/the-darkometer/livio-jean-charles/


Projected as a high-to-mid-secound round draft pick, Jean-Charles still might stay stashed away for a few years in Europe if chosen. He just resigned a four-year contract with ASVEL and has a bright future in front of him.

He was already with ASVEL and apparently was re-upped pre-draft.

Maybe I'm remembering people speculating that drafting him was a way of funneling buyout money to Parker and that was the controversy. Don't really remember.

[Solid D]

LJC needs the Austin experience and closer tutelage with Ken McDonald and the Spurs staff, as available.

[Chinook]

It's possible. Something I didn't know but I thought was interesting, so I'll share: There's no anti-tampering laws between leagues. Not even in the NBA-FIBA agreement. Imposing such restriction at an international level would likely be construed as an antitrust violation. That's why every team (this applies to soccer too) pretty much always sets a high buyout amount as compensation in case the player is enticed by another team/league.

European teams can totally put into contracts that players can only get buyouts to go to the NBA. Like I wouldn't be surprised if Bertans had such a buyout. I don't know if the NBA can restrict players from leaving one Euro team to go to another, but within Euro, that protection is there, and it may have been present with Asvel.

[SAGirl]

Gotta work his way back in an organization that will take care of him. There were dudes in this past draft who were older than him. He still has time.
I really think he needs a shot. He's an athlete but he's stuck in that Jeff Ayers type of athletic big who has no shooting range whatsoever. In LJC case is even more noticeable bc he's an athletic wing in reality in terms of body type and athleticism. Cady and him looked about the same last summer, but Cady is a lot stronger now, not much taller, but he looks bigger. LJC is like an athletic wing. He could have developed the shot anywhere. He has maybe this season to work on that.

[Chinook]

I really think he needs a shot. He's an athlete but he's stuck in that Jeff Ayers type of athletic big who has no shooting range whatsoever. In LJC case is even more noticeable bc he's an athletic wing in reality in terms of body type and athleticism. Cady and him looked about the same last summer, but Cady is a lot stronger now, not much taller, but he looks bigger. LJC is like an athletic wing. He could have developed the shot anywhere. He has maybe this season to work on that.

He played small-ball center in the last game, which I found interesting. He's probably too small to play there now in the NBA. But that seems to project him as a big and not a combo-forward. His shot is interesting. Like right before he was drafted, there was talk that his three was coming along. Then he got hurt and was out the first year. The second year, we hear his shot is horrible. Then he comes over to the summer league and misses everything but looks good doing it. Then last year, he says that his shot is looking good again. And I apparently missed some really awesome jumper he made a couple of games ago. I just don't know what it all means.

[ElNono]

European teams can totally put into contracts that players can only get buyouts to go to the NBA. Like I wouldn't be surprised if Bertans had such a buyout. I don't know if the NBA can restrict players from leaving one Euro team to go to another, but within Euro, that protection is there, and it may have been present with Asvel.

There's no such protection, inter-league, in Europe. That's because there's no anti-tampering laws inter-league. That's exactly why Euro players get huge buyout amounts stapled to their contracts when they sign them, because a Real Madrid can come around and entice a player, and the player can simply demand to be moved. The buyout is the compensation for the other team when that situation happens. Works exactly like soccer. Top teams like Real Madrid or Barcelona pay such buyout amounts all the time (both in basketball and soccer).

[Chinook]

There's no such protection, inter-league, in Europe. That's because there's no anti-tampering laws inter-league. That's exactly why Euro players get huge buyout amounts stapled to their contracts when they sign them, because a Real Madrid can come around and entice a player, and the player can simply demand to be moved. The buyout is the compensation for the other team when that situation happens. Works exactly like soccer. Top teams like Real Madrid or Barcelona pay such buyout amounts all the time (both in basketball and soccer).

I don't think you're drawing the right conclusions. If a guy is playing for let's say LK Baskonia and Real Madrid wants him, LK Baskonia doesn't have to let him go. "Demanding to be moved" doesn't mean anything. If you don't have a buyout in your deal, you're stuck there unless you negotiate one. I have no idea why you think otherwise.

[SAGirl]

He played small-ball center in the last game, which I found interesting. He's probably too small to play there now in the NBA. But that seems to project him as a big and not a combo-forward. His shot is interesting. Like right before he was drafted, there was talk that his three was coming along. Then he got hurt and was out the first year. The second year, we hear his shot is horrible. Then he comes over to the summer league and misses everything but looks good doing it. Then last year, he says that his shot is looking good again. And I apparently missed some really awesome jumper he made a couple of games ago. I just don't know what it all means.
He had a pretty fadeway jumper from about ehhhh 8-10 baseline. I really have no idea what the plan is for Pop.

I am going to sidetrack here but its relevant if you follow me. I really didn't see JSimms run a competent PnR with the bigs. He always wants to go and get his. In the dleague I remember watching a game with Boban, by the way the lost it and Jsimms was terrible, inefficient and TO on PnR a whole lot. He never involved Boban. It was one of those things by JSimms that got me /smh. Anyways, he doesn't have that much rapport or court vision or something, but with his hops and quickness he always wants to get his... It prevented all of the bigs, including LJC from getting anything easy at the basket.

Believe it or not, the guy who I did see run a PnR that result in really open dunks and good looks for bigs was our very own inefficient rookie youngster Dijon. He does run a pretty PnR. But he ran them with Stokes if I remember correctly and once with Cady. Problem is when they switched and not trapped and Dijon had to get to the basket to get his, he can't finish like JSimms, but he's got potential to run a meaner PnR with the bigs. Hopefully both develop some chemistry in the dleague and LJC both work on their respective shots too.

[Chinook]

Not an ironclad source, but here's what SB Nation has to say (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/6/25/5820488/nba-draft-2014-international-prospects-dante-exum-dario-saric):


All about buyoutsStill, players with foreign contracts still get drafted. It can often be a nice value play. If the NBA team wants to bring the prospect over ASAP, and the player is amenable, then the sides will work on a buyout. The dollar figure of the buyout will often be written into the foreign contract, and it may be an NBA-exclusive clause.
NBA teams cannot pay this straight out. League rules govern the cap on the amount of cash a team can contribute to a foreign buyout. For 2014, that figure is $600,000. The player must pay the rest out of his salary. If it's a hefty buyout, that can cause problems unless a player is taken very high in the draft. Any portion of a buyout paid by the team does not count against the salary cap.
The intent of the cap on team-provided buyout funds is two-fold: it levels the playing field between cash-rich and low-revenue teams (much like the salary cap itself), and it deters international clubs from holding prospects "hostage" by making it illegal for NBA teams to pay exorbitant ransoms.
An expensive buyout is the issue most likely to give NBA teams heartburn about drafting an international prospect.

[ElNono]

I don't think you're drawing the right conclusions. If a guy is playing for let's say LK Baskonia and Real Madrid wants him, LK Baskonia doesn't have to let him go. "Demanding to be moved" doesn't mean anything. If you don't have a buyout in your deal, you're stuck there unless you negotiate one. I have no idea why you think otherwise.

Because the player can simply say I won't play for you anymore, he then gets fired, flies to Madrid and signs a new deal. *THAT* is why buyouts clauses were added to those contracts, so teams at least can get compensation when the player wants to move, and you don't have to go through a messy situation like that, which can take time to get resolved. Ultimately, you can't force the player to play for you if he doesn't want to.

[Chinook]

He had a pretty fadeway jumper from about ehhhh 8-10 baseline. I really have no idea what the plan is for Pop.

I am going to sidetrack here but its relevant if you follow me. I really didn't see JSimms run a competent PnR with the bigs. He always wants to go and get his. In the dleague I remember watching a game with Boban, by the way the lost it and Jsimms was terrible, inefficient and TO on PnR a whole lot. He never involved Boban. It was one of those things by JSimms that got me /smh. Anyways, he doesn't have that much rapport or court vision or something, but with his hops and quickness he always wants to get his... It prevented all of the bigs, including LJC from getting anything easy at the basket.

Believe it or not, the guy who I did see run a PnR that result in really open dunks and good looks for bigs was our very own inefficient rookie youngster Dijon. He does run a pretty PnR. But he ran them with Stokes if I remember correctly and once with Cady. Problem is when they switched and not trapped and Dijon had to get to the basket to get his, he can't finish like JSimms, but he's got potential to run a meaner PnR with the bigs. Hopefully both develop some chemistry in the dleague and LJC both work on their respective shots too.

I'm pretty sure it was Murray that gave LJC a nice feed last game, but then he or someone else missed Jean-Charles standing open under the basket after he slipped the screen. The best thing about LJC right now is his quick feet. They are most obvious defensively, as he can switch and recover better than any other big on the team. But they also help him roll effectively on offense. Splitter had the same advantage, though obviously Tiago's superior size and other skills made him a significantly better player. A shot would be nice, but it would also be great to see LJC become a better screener so that he'd be a good PnR big. Rim pressure is important, and there's a long-term need for that in the lineup, especially if it comes with above-average PnR adn perimeter defense.

[Chinook]

Because the player can simply say I won't play for you anymore, he then gets fired,

That's not the way it works. You just don't play, and your contract stays on the books indefinitely. It's amazing that you're trying to argue this point. You don't have to let guys go simply because they want to go somewhere else. If you could, no one would pay buyouts at all.

[ElNono]

Did you read what I posted above? Let me bold you the part that matters:

The agreement, unlike NBA internal rules, contains no anti-tampering prohibition. That is, it does not proscribe communication between a team and a foreign player about future employment while that player is performing for another employer under an existing contract. Presumably, that omission is deliberate and reflects that the strongest justification for tampering rules - the prevention of the existence or appearance of a conflict of interest within a league - does not apply in a situation of inter-league agreement. Indeed, it's doubtful that a persuasive rationale can be supplied for an international tampering rule, which inhibits negotiations during the tenure of a player's contract. And such rule, which shifts, in a way detrimental to players, the line implicitly drawn by existing contract (and tort) law between constraint and freedom to pursue employment opportunities would likely constitute an antitrust violation.

[objective]

He had a pretty fadeway jumper from about ehhhh 8-10 baseline. I really have no idea what the plan is for Pop.

I am going to sidetrack here but its relevant if you follow me. I really didn't see JSimms run a competent PnR with the bigs. He always wants to go and get his. In the dleague I remember watching a game with Boban, by the way the lost it and Jsimms was terrible, inefficient and TO on PnR a whole lot. He never involved Boban. It was one of those things by JSimms that got me /smh. Anyways, he doesn't have that much rapport or court vision or something, but with his hops and quickness he always wants to get his... It prevented all of the bigs, including LJC from getting anything easy at the basket.

Believe it or not, the guy who I did see run a PnR that result in really open dunks and good looks for bigs was our very own inefficient rookie youngster Dijon. He does run a pretty PnR. But he ran them with Stokes if I remember correctly and once with Cady. Problem is when they switched and not trapped and Dijon had to get to the basket to get his, he can't finish like JSimms, but he's got potential to run a meaner PnR with the bigs. Hopefully both develop some chemistry in the dleague and LJC both work on their respective shots too.

Simmons had at least 1 pnr into a dunk with Boban in the regular season. Against Dallas? It's in Boban YouTube highlights of every field goal

[Chinook]

Did you read what I posted above? Let me bold you the part that matters:

The agreement, unlike NBA internal rules, contains no anti-tampering prohibition. That is, it does not proscribe communication between a team and a foreign player about future employment while that player is performing for another employer under an existing contract. Presumably, that omission is deliberate and reflects that the strongest justification for tampering rules - the prevention of the existence or appearance of a conflict of interest within a league - does not apply in a situation of inter-league agreement. Indeed, it's doubtful that a persuasive rationale can be supplied for an international tampering rule, which inhibits negotiations during the tenure of a player's contract. And such rule, which shifts, in a way detrimental to players, the line implicitly drawn by existing contract (and tort) law between constraint and freedom to pursue employment opportunities would likely constitute an antitrust violation.

Yes, that's why I said I don't think you're drawing the right conclusion. You can talk to other teams, but it says nothing about breaking contracts. Jesus, dude. Contracts wouldn't mean anything at all if you could just break them whenever you felt like it.

[ElNono]

That's not the way it works. You just don't play, and your contract stays on the books indefinitely. It's amazing that you're trying to argue this point.

What are you talking about? If you don't work, you don't get paid. Eventually, you get fired. Or the company takes you to court for breach of contract, and extracts whatever they can from you in damages before letting you go. This is basic contract law.

[ElNono]

Yes, that's why I said I don't think you're drawing the right conclusion. You can talk to other teams, but it says nothing about breaking contracts. Jesus, dude. Contracts wouldn't mean anything at all if you could just break them whenever you felt like it.

:lol of course you can break them whenever you feel like it. Are you kidding me? You might have provisions where you have to compensate the other party in such cases, but what are you going to extract from a player? Nothing compared to a buyout, that's the whole point.

[Chinook]

What are you talking about? If you don't work, you don't get paid. Eventually, you get fired. Or the company takes you to court for breach of contract, and extracts whatever they can from you in damages before letting you go. This is basic contract law.

I don't know where you got that from, but it's clear you don't watch the NFL. You just don't get paid. If you're not getting paid, why would the team release you? It makes no difference to them, and they aren't letting you get what you want.

Hell, even in basketball, there are really obvious situations where players aren't allowed to break their contracts. CBA (the China league) players don't get buyouts. That's why they're always available in March. This was really obvious during the lockout year. Do you think Wilson Chandler and Patty Mills stayed over because they wanted to? No. They signed deals that they had to honor.

[Chinook]

:lol of course you can break them whenever you feel like it. Are you kidding me? You might have provisions where you have to compensate the other party in such cases, but what are you going to extract from a player? Nothing compared to a buyout, that's the whole point.

No. If Kawhi went up to the Spurs and told them he was going to Real Madrid, Pop would roll his eyes and say, "Not for at least three years you aren't." And if the Spurs don't want it to happen, that's the end of the conversation. Kawhi would sit out, get no money, the Spurs would get their cap space back, and that would be the end of Kawhi for at least three seasons.

Again, you're being illogical. If players could leave whenever they wanted, there would be NO buyouts at all. If Bertans could have joined the Spurs this season no matter what, they aren't going to through $675k or whatever away to make it happen. No one would. It's not just those clubs being nice. Serious, man. It's strange that you're trying to go down this road. It's very wrong.

[Chinook]

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/NBA-players-who-went-to-China-in-lockout-might-be-stuck-once-it-ends-113011


Many NBA players who sought a paycheck abroad hedged their bets during the lockout by signing contracts with teams in Europe or the Middle East that allowed them to return to the NBA if the season was salvaged.
But for the handful of NBA free agents like Wilson Chandler, J.R. Smith, Patty Mills, Kenyon Martin and Aaron Brooks -- who bet against a settlement by signing to play in the Chinese Basketball Association (CBA) -- leaving is not so simple.



With the Chinese season already two weeks old, they are under contract to stay put. In addition to facing serious financial penalties if they leave, these players would not be able to sign with NBA teams. The NBA, as a member of FIBA -- basketball's governing body -- is required to honor international contracts.

[ElNono]

I don't know where you got that from, but it's clear you don't watch the NFL. You just don't get paid. If you're not getting paid, why would the team release you? It makes no difference to them, and they aren't letting you get what you want.

Hell, even in basketball, there are really obvious situations where players aren't allowed to break their contracts. CBA (the China league) players don't get buyouts. That's why they're always available in March. This was really obvious during the lockout year. Do you think Wilson Chandler and Patty Mills stayed over because they wanted to?

lol @ the NFL reference. We're talking inter-league. And the Chinese league doesn't have buyouts, really? How did this happen?

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/potential-chinese-sensation-reaches-buyout-agreement-003757420.html

Wilson Chandler and Patty Mills might've to put money out of pocket to get out of their deals, that's probably why they stayed. That happens all the time because the NBA restricts NBA teams as far as how much they can provide for such buyouts, which you should know well, since it happened a bunch of times for Spurs players. There's no such restrictions in Europe.

[Chinook]

There's no such restrictions in Europe.

Yes, there is. You can't break your contract. A buyout compensates the team for releasing you. You don't have anything to stand on. Tampering isn't signing a player to a contract. It's discussing terms. Leonard could talk to Real Madrid all he wants, but they can't sign him unless the Spurs release him.

[ElNono]

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/NBA-players-who-went-to-China-in-lockout-might-be-stuck-once-it-ends-113011

:lol what does that has to do with what we are discussing? Of course the NBA honors FIBA contracts. That doesn't mean a player can't force it's way out of his contract in Europe. Heck, the NBA allows teams to spend a certain amount into paying buyout clauses. The sole reason for that was so the NBA doesn't go to Europe and dismantles the big teams there, like Madrid or Barcelona by just paying out all the buyout clauses.

But there's no such limitation between leagues in Europe. Madrid can pay the full buyout of whatever player and just get him.

[objective]

Bertans walked away from Partizan with years on his deal. They might not have been paying him what they owed, that would have factored in

[ElNono]

Yes, there is. You can't break your contract. A buyout compensates the team for releasing you. You don't have anything to stand on. Tampering isn't signing a player to a contract. It's discussing terms. Leonard could talk to Real Madrid all he wants, but they can't sign him unless the Spurs release him.

Of course they can't sign him. But there's nothing that prevents Leonard to get out of his contract from the Spurs (other than probably getting dragged in court and paying some damages), and there's no way Real Madrid can pay him more than the Spurs.

[Chinook]

:lol what does that has to do with what we are discussing? Of course the NBA honors FIBA contracts.

An NBA contract IS a FIBA contract, just like a ACB contract is a FIBA contract. They aren't different. No FIBA teams can sign a guy under contract. That includes pretty much every professional team worth anything.

It's obvious as hell that you're wrong and just don't want to admit it, man. Maybe you're trolling, maybe it's that Italian in you (as you said way back when) that won't let you back down. But you've yet to show any evidence that players can up and leave teams.

[Chinook]

Bertans walked away from Partizan with years on his deal. They might not have been paying him what they owed, that would have factored in

It did:


Article 14 Terminating a contract with just cause A contract may be terminated by either party without consequencesof any kind (either payment of compensation or imposition of sportingsanctions) where there is just cause.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/regulations_on_the_status_and_transfer_of_players_ en_33410.pdf

[raybies]

:corn:

[SAGirl]

Simmons had at least 1 pnr into a dunk with Boban in the regular season. Against Dallas? It's in Boban YouTube highlights of every field goal
One highlight vs a hundred other times I have seen him run the same play and not result in a good look for a big.

[ElNono]

An NBA contract IS a FIBA contract, just like a ACB contract is a FIBA contract. They aren't different. No FIBA teams can sign a guy under contract. That includes pretty much every professional team worth anything.

It's obvious as hell that you're wrong and just don't want to admit it, man. Maybe you're trolling, maybe it's that Italian in you (as you said way back when) that won't let you back down. But you've yet to show any evidence that players can up and leave teams.

What the fuck dude, who said anything about signing? I said from the get go that in Europe you can pay a full buyout clause and then you get to sign the player. That's how it works. Ofcourse nobody is signing anybody until the other contract is done, but that's the whole point, you can't force a person to stay indefinitely under a contract against their will. A contract is a mutual agreement and in almost every case has one or more termination clauses: Breach of core obligations, insolvency, impossibility to perform, etc... contract law.

Whatever remedies the team might obtain from the termination of such contract pale in comparison to the value of a buyout, not to mention it prolongs the inevitable. That's *why* there's buyouts.

[ElNono]

Why do you think we even need anti-tampering if nobody can't get out of their contracts? That is the whole point of anti-tampering.

EDIT: well, except for trades, but players can force a trade anyways.

[raybies]

Season
G
GS
MPG
FG%
3P%
FT%
OFF
DEF
RPG
APG
SPG
BPG
TO
PF
PPG


2016 SAS
5
5
24.8
0.466
0.136
0.714
3
28
6.2
1.0
1.8
0.8
4.00
2.20
11.0





Date
Opponent
Result
MIN
FGM-A
3PM-A
FTM-A
OFF
DEF
REB
AST
STL
BLK
TO
PF
PTS


Jul 13
at MIN
L 71-80
28
5-15
1-5
3-3
2
4
6
1
2
0
2
1
14


Jul 12
vs CHI
L 76-79
25
2-10
0-2
0-1
0
3
3
1
2
1
3
3
4


Jul 10
vs POR
W 85-69
22
3-13
2-4
0-0
0
7
7
1
1
0
6
1
8


Jul 09
vs GSW
W 63-61
23
3-11
0-0
2-3
0
10
10
1
3
3
5
2
8


Jul 07
at BOS
L 86-87
25
8-12
0-1
5-7
1
4
5
1
1
0
4
4
21



Dejounte Murray

Not bad, when compared to other top picks like Ingram, who I like to compare him with because of size and similar roles. And by size I mean length and weight. Both are skinny and lanky and roles, I mean they are both being brought along slowly.