Trayvon Martin - black kid armed with skittles killed in "self-defense"

[bobbyjoe]

You are now getting into a better point of discussion.

Profiling isn't necessarily a bad thing. Neither is discrimination warranted for the situation. We all discriminate on a daily basis. It usually has nothing to do with race however.

Wouldn't a wise person in society not want to appear as one who gets profiled?

Absolutely. Why do you think he doesn't?

I don't thnk profiling is necessarily a bad thing. I definitely don't think it's a heinous or criminal act and I agree that we all do it on a daily basis. I know I do, even though I try not too and try to be more open-minded.

I disagree that it usually has nothing to do with race. I think race is a very common reason for profiling. So is gender. So is age.

However, I think profiling can definitely go too far and I think this case is a perfect example. At the end of the day, Zimmerman was absolutely wrong that Martin was up to no good and look what happened. A life was lost that didn't have to be. Two parents are absolutely devastated and their lives are irrevocably altered.

Can you expand on where you were going with the wise person in society not wanting to appear as one who gets profiled?

[bobbyjoe]

And we are to believe this liar..... why?

I would imagine the police questioning was recorded and if the prosecutor was lying, Zimmerman has nothing to worry about at the trial on this aspect f the case.

Not sure how much of the trial snippets you saw, but at one point this prosecutor grilled Zimmerman about why Zimmerman didn't express remorse for taking a life during the interrogation as opposed to waiting until the bail hearing.

Zimmerman answered that he indeed had and then the prosecutor asked (in an aggressive, louder tone)... "So since you said this, it would be present on the recorded questioning you encountered at the police station?"

It seems odd to ask that question unless you have evidence to the contrary... My guess is this will be brought up at trial to raise doubts as to Zimmerman's credibility. We shall see.

I'm shocked Z's lawyer put him on the stand today.

[mavs>spurs]

my honest gut feeling is that the guy is innocent, but it's a really tough call. seeing that picture today confirmed why the police initially seemed to do nothing, they had the facts we didn't. i think that this whole trial is just to appease all the people crying racism.

[bobbyjoe]

my honest gut feeling is that the guy is innocent, but it's a really tough call. seeing that picture today confirmed why the police initially seemed to do nothing, they had the facts we didn't. i think that this whole trial is just to appease all the people crying racism.

The picture was dramatic for sure. I know people say head wounds bleed profusely, but that was a LOT of blood. It will be interesting to see the medical report and whether stitches were required.

My gut is telling me that Trayvon started the fight, but that Zimmerman eventually gained the upper hand and shot him afterwards in a rage. Anyone who has been in a fight knows that you aren't thinking rationally at all during the fight. He may be a good guy, but he clearly made a mistake and actions have to have consequences in our society.

However, it wasn't the police who wanted to let the case go. It was the State Attorney. The lead investigator didn't believe Zimmerman's story and wanted to file Manslaughter charges. THe DA declined.

Prosecutors like high conviction rates and like winning as it feeds their ego's. If they believe a person is guilty, but feel like they will have a hard time proving it in court they often will decline to prosecute the case. And self-defense is often difficult to disprove in a murder case because the victim isn't around to tell his/her side of the story.

[mavs>spurs]

i just have a hard time thinking that little nerdy looking dude had any sort of an upperhand. that early picture of trayvon they were posting in the media was actually him at like 14. trayvon was MUCH bigger than zimmerman at the time of the assault. i've been hearing trayvon was like 6'3 and played football. to me it's believable that he would beat zimmerman's ass.

[mavs>spurs]

I've been fucked with by the police for no good reason. I'll bet other whites here have as well.

sure have

[bobbyjoe]

i just have a hard time thinking that little nerdy looking dude had any sort of an upperhand. that early picture of trayvon they were posting in the media was actually him at like 14. trayvon was MUCH bigger than zimmerman at the time of the assault. i've been hearing trayvon was like 6'3 and played football. to me it's believable that he would beat zimmerman's ass.

The police report has Trayvon weighing 150 lbs at the time of his death. He had a scrawny build, so if he had played football he must have been something like a WR and those guys aren't exactly or often "tough". The media has also shown pictures of Trayvon a few days before his death and it's clear the guy was really skinny.

Zimmerman's weight is estimated at 180-190 lbs. He was at one time a bouncer and you typically don't get hired as a bouncer unless you can handle yourself well in physical conflicts. So the size angle seems to be a slight edge for Zimmerman or a draw. Trayvon was definitely not MUCH bigger than Zimmerman. Taller yes, bigger no.

[mavs>spurs]

ehhh i'm reading everywhere that he was 6'0-6'3 depending on the report and 160lbs. i'll take the young black athlete over some fat mexican any day. what on earth leads you to believe that zimmerman shot him after the fact in a rage? there's no evidence to support that, which there would have to be in order to get a conviction. like i said, i think he walks. this was all just to appease the people crying racism.

[bobbyjoe]

ehhh i'm reading everywhere that he was 6'0-6'3 depending on the report and 160lbs. i'll take the young black athlete over some fat mexican any day. what on earth leads you to believe that zimmerman shot him after the fact in a rage? there's no evidence to support that, which there would have to be in order to get a conviction. like i said, i think he walks. this was all just to appease the people crying racism.

http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-9-Days-Before-Death-Photo

Here are several pictures of Trayvon 9 days before his death. Does he look like a big guy to you?

[mavs>spurs]

http://static.globalgrind.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gallery_image/images/2012_march/trayvon-martin-family-photos-1_1.jpg

this wasn't the worlds tiniest little kid..i have every reason to believe he could beat a short, fat mexican's ass and cause him to bleed like the picture. again, prove that zimmmerman shot him after the fact in a rage? i've neverrrrr heard even one piece of evidence to support this, not by the witnesses not by anything. sounds like just your own idea to me, but in order to get a conviction you need evidence. zimmerman walks.

[TheSkeptic]

Did anyone catch today that the prosecutor indicated Zimmerman had told the police during their hours of questioning him that Trayvon Martin was trying to suffocate him before he "scooted away" and shot Trayvon at close range?


It's stuff like this that makes me think that Zimmerman probably is guilty of manslaughter.

Clearly Zimmerman is lying about some of what happened that night and that includes details like this one. I also find it really suspicious that his account of events specifically satisfies the legal requirements for self-defense.

In spite of all this his own attorney is invoking SYG (likely to justify the pursuit) and playing semantics rather than attacking the evidence.

Meanwhile Zimmerman's exaggerated his injuries, lied about being the one calling for help, and can't even put together a coherent timeline. The fact that he's hiding that kind of information leads me to believe that he shot the kid for no good reason and is covering his bases.



I'm shocked Z's lawyer put him on the stand today.

I think it was to make sure the apology was televised so that he could have some public sympathy when they select a jury.


The picture was dramatic for sure. I know people say head wounds bleed profusely, but that was a LOT of blood. It will be interesting to see the medical report and whether stitches were required.


The state investigator already said that Zimmerman's head wasn't being pounded repeatedly into the sidewalk.



My gut is telling me that Trayvon started the fight, but that Zimmerman eventually gained the upper hand and shot him afterwards in a rage. Anyone who has been in a fight knows that you aren't thinking rationally at all during the fight. He may be a good guy, but he clearly made a mistake and actions have to have consequences in our society.


See I could see this except for the girlfriend's testimony. She said Trayvon said "Why are you following me?", Zimmerman answered with "What are you doing here?" and that one shoved the other or something because Trayvon's headset fell.

I'm thinking that Zimmerman was maybe tired of the fact that the cops weren't taking his calls seriously and that he decided that he was going to detain the kid until the police arrived. Trayvon was scared of Zimmerman so I don't think he would've followed him back to his car and blindsided him. I just don't.

My guess is that Zimmerman grabbed the kid's arm or something to detain him and that's when the fight started. Trayvon could very well have thrown a punch at that point. Zimmerman loses his balance and falls hitting his head on the sidewalk. Maybe the kid gets on top and punches him in the face a couple of times.

Furious that the suspect is resisting, Zimmerman then gets the upperhand and shoots.

Since stalking and harassment is illegal anyway, it doesn't matter to me who threw the first punch. But if Zimmerman was the one who grabbed the kid physically first then he wouldn't even be able to count on SYG to save himself. Most likely that's the detail that pushed O'Mara into pursuing SYG as a defense.

That would fit into the reasons why Zimmerman has been purposely attempting to paint himself as the absolute victim here in my opinion. Most likely he did something he shouldn't have and that final detail would probably put the final nail in his coffin.


i just have a hard time thinking that little nerdy looking dude had any sort of an upperhand. that early picture of trayvon they were posting in the media was actually him at like 14. trayvon was MUCH bigger than zimmerman at the time of the assault. i've been hearing trayvon was like 6'3 and played football. to me it's believable that he would beat zimmerman's ass.

6'3 150 pounds and 5'8 to 5'10 150 pounds are two completely different body types. Forget about the fact that Zimmerman clearly outweighed Trayvon by at least 20 pound if not more.

[bobbyjoe]

http://static.globalgrind.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gallery_image/images/2012_march/trayvon-martin-family-photos-1_1.jpg

this wasn't the worlds tiniest little kid..i have every reason to believe he could beat a short, fat mexican's ass and cause him to bleed like the picture. again, prove that zimmmerman shot him after the fact in a rage? i've neverrrrr heard even one piece of evidence to support this, not by the witnesses not by anything. sounds like just your own idea to me, but in order to get a conviction you need evidence. zimmerman walks.

I clearly said it was my gut instinct.

The way I formulated it was by listening to the 911 call. I find it extremely difficult to believe that Zimmerman was yelling for help for 45 seconds wheras it is very logical and rational to visualize Trayvon yelling if Zimmerman was in control and Trayvon knew Zimmerman was about to shoot him.

If he was in such fear for his life (the calls on the 911 call were clearly of someone in agonizing fear) why wait so long to fire? And if Martin is in such great control and pounding the crap out of him in a one sided mismatch, how exactly does he extricate his gun, unholster it and fire it? Does Martin just sit idly while he sees Z reach for his gun?! If there was a struggle for the gun, there has to be Martin's DNA on the gun.

All this happens in the span of ONE SECOND? In the 911 call, there is less than one second between the last yell for help and the gunshot. Why would you be yelling for help less than one second before making the conscious, voluntary decision to shoot someone in the chest?! Zimmerman's story just doesn't jive up sequentially with the cries for help on the 911 call. It didn't pass the lead investigator's smell test, it didn't pass Angela Corey's smell test and it doesn't pass mine.

[Wild Cobra]

The police report has Trayvon weighing 150 lbs at the time of his death. He had a scrawny build, so if he had played football he must have been something like a WR and those guys aren't exactly or often "tough". The media has also shown pictures of Trayvon a few days before his death and it's clear the guy was really skinny.

Zimmerman's weight is estimated at 180-190 lbs. He was at one time a bouncer and you typically don't get hired as a bouncer unless you can handle yourself well in physical conflicts. So the size angle seems to be a slight edge for Zimmerman or a draw. Trayvon was definitely not MUCH bigger than Zimmerman. Taller yes, bigger no.


ehhh i'm reading everywhere that he was 6'0-6'3 depending on the report and 160lbs. i'll take the young black athlete over some fat mexican any day. what on earth leads you to believe that zimmerman shot him after the fact in a rage? there's no evidence to support that, which there would have to be in order to get a conviction. like i said, i think he walks. this was all just to appease the people crying racism.
Well, I pointed out before that when I was Martin's age, I was a little thinner than him, and 6' tall. I was 150 lbs.

The police report was just an estimate of his weight, based on how he looked. They police did not measure and weigh him as the scene. No way he was only 150. He was probably about 170. The coroners report of his weight wasn't released to the public yet, to my knowledge.

As for Zimmerman being a bouncer... If he was... unless you know the job requirements at the specific establishment he worked at, being a bouncer doesn't mean shit. These guys usually wand people and sit and look official. They seldom ever have to take action, the police arrive from a call far more often than not when incidents start. Been to many bars over the years with bouncers present. Only seen them have to take physical action once.

[bobbyjoe]

It's stuff like this that makes me think that Zimmerman probably is guilty of manslaughter.

Clearly Zimmerman is lying about some of what happened that night and that includes details like this one. I also find it really suspicious that his account of events specifically satisfies the legal requirements for self-defense.

In spite of all this his own attorney is invoking SYG (likely to justify the pursuit) and playing semantics rather than attacking the evidence.

Meanwhile Zimmerman's exaggerated his injuries, lied about being the one calling for help, and can't even put together a coherent timeline. The fact that he's hiding that kind of information leads me to believe that he shot the kid for no good reason and is covering his bases.



I think it was to make sure the apology was televised so that he could have some public sympathy when they select a jury.



The state investigator already said that Zimmerman's head wasn't being pounded repeatedly into the sidewalk.



See I could see this except for the girlfriend's testimony. She said Trayvon said "Why are you following me?", Zimmerman answered with "What are you doing here?" and that one shoved the other or something because Trayvon's headset fell.

I'm thinking that Zimmerman was maybe tired of the fact that the cops weren't taking his calls seriously and that he decided that he was going to detain the kid until the police arrived. Trayvon was scared of Zimmerman so I don't think he would've followed him back to his car and blindsided him. I just don't.

My guess is that Zimmerman grabbed the kid's arm or something to detain him and that's when the fight started. Trayvon could very well have thrown a punch at that point. Zimmerman loses his balance and falls hitting his head on the sidewalk. Maybe the kid gets on top and punches him in the face a couple of times.

Furious that the suspect is resisting, Zimmerman then gets the upperhand and shoots.

Since stalking and harassment is illegal anyway, it doesn't matter to me who threw the first punch. But if Zimmerman was the one who grabbed the kid physically first then he wouldn't even be able to count on SYG to save himself. Most likely that's the detail that pushed O'Mara into pursuing SYG as a defense.

That would fit into the reasons why Zimmerman has been purposely attempting to paint himself as the absolute victim here in my opinion. Most likely he did something he shouldn't have and that final detail would probably put the final nail in his coffin.



6'3 150 pounds and 5'8 to 5'10 150 pounds are two completely different body types. Forget about the fact that Zimmerman clearly outweighed Trayvon by at least 20 pound if not more.

The girlfriend's testimony from what I understand doesn't suggest Zimmerman started the physical conflict.

Yes, the headset fell, but that doesn't prove who shoved whom. I don't believe that just because Zimmerman followed Trayvon he is the instigator.

Zimmerman shoving Martin and starting a fight with someone who he thought was suspicious doesn't make sense to me. But a 17 year old black teenager being severely pissed off that a stranger was following him makes perfect sense to me. Since Martin was suspended from school, he also may not have been in a very positive frame of mind, especially with regards to authority (Zimmerman had pseudo-authority as a neighborhood watchman).

I could see your theory being right about the detainment, but I find it easier to believe that Zimmerman politely asked Martin to stick around until the police officers showed up and Martin refusing to and being insulted by the suggestion and punching him. In other words, not a forced detainment. Again, just my gut instinct.

I definitely don't think Martin is wholly innocent in this matter. The blood didn't get on Zimmerman's head just like that. But I don't buy Zimmerman was put in such a horrific situation by Martin that he had a right to kill based on the evidence we've seen so far.

I completely agree that the contradictions in his statements arouse suspicion. It's clear that's what the prosecutors and lead investigator thought.

This case has manslaughter written all over it in my mind. The Murder 2 charge makes no sense given what we know...

[TheSkeptic]

The girlfriend's testimony from what I understand doesn't suggest Zimmerman started the physical conflict.

Yes, the headset fell, but that doesn't prove who shoved whom. I don't believe that just because Zimmerman followed Trayvon he is the instigator.

Zimmerman shoving Martin and starting a fight with someone who he thought was suspicious doesn't make sense to me. But a 17 year old black teenager being severely pissed off that a stranger was following him makes perfect sense to me. Since Martin was suspended from school, he also may not have been in a very positive frame of mind, especially with regards to authority (Zimmerman had pseudo-authority as a neighborhood watchman).

I could see your theory being right about the detainment, but I find it easier to believe that Zimmerman politely asked Martin to stick around until the police officers showed up and Martin refusing to and being insulted by the suggestion and punching him. In other words, not a forced detainment. Again, just my gut instinct.

I definitely don't think Martin is wholly innocent in this matter. The blood didn't get on Zimmerman's head just like that. But I don't buy Zimmerman was put in such a horrific situation by Martin that he had a right to kill based on the evidence we've seen so far.

I completely agree that the contradictions in his statements arouse suspicion. It's clear that's what the prosecutors and lead investigator thought.

This case has manslaughter written all over it in my mind. The Murder 2 charge makes no sense given what we know...

I take it you're not black then? :lol

I definitely agree that the girlfriend's testimony doesn't prove Zimmerman threw the first punch. He might've touched him first though and that's what would likely bury him even with jurors who are more inclined to believe his story.

Really, I guess I'm just trying to work out in my mind why else Zimmerman would go on to lie and exaggerate if he hadn't done anything wrong. If he had gone up to Trayvon and said: "Excuse me, I couldn't help but notice you walking around here and you seemed a little bit lost. There's been a rash of break-ins taking place in this area and I was just checking to see if you're okay." and then Trayvon just started kicking his teeth in he wouldn't be lying about so much of what happened. You know?

The girlfriend did say that Zimmerman answered Trayvon's question with the words "What are you doing here?" before the headset fell. That's kind of why I'm thinking that Zimmerman maybe grabbed the kid's arm or something before Trayvon punched him.

I've noticed that a lot of the Hispanic people I've met tend to be more physical in general with respect to touch and all that so from that perspective Zimmerman might not have been fully aware of the effect his actions were having. The kid reacts badly and things continue to escalate from there.

Of course I also don't really care about the details of the fight because I think Trayvon had every reason to feel threatened and since he only had his fists and he wasn't some kind of expert martial artist I just don't think Zimmerman's use of deadly force was justified here.

That said, I think the right charge was probably manslaughter. Unless there's some unreleased evidence (apparently it's been sealed) that we don't know about Murder 2 seems like reaching to me.

[Jacob1983]

The prosecution seems like it will have a much tougher job than the defense. The prosecution has to prove 100 percent that Zimmerman did it and is 100 percent guilty. All the defense has to do is create doubt and with that bogus Stand Your Ground law, it looks like it might be easy to do so.

Zimmerman is probably a prick and a piece of crap but none of us were there so we honestly don't know what happened. I just think it's funny how so many people are automatically wanting to create shit over racism when they don't even have hardly any of the facts. It's like people want Zimmerman to be a psycho racist so they can throw stones at him and bitch about racism.
Why is it automatically assumed that when a white person does anything wrong to a black person or a person that is a minority that it's automatically a hate crime or has something to do with racism? What if people just do bad shit because they're evil or just bad?

[bobbyjoe]

I take it you're not black then? :lol

I definitely agree that the girlfriend's testimony doesn't prove Zimmerman threw the first punch. He might've touched him first though and that's what would likely bury him even with jurors who are more inclined to believe his story.

Really, I guess I'm just trying to work out in my mind why else Zimmerman would go on to lie and exaggerate if he hadn't done anything wrong. If he had gone up to Trayvon and said: "Excuse me, I couldn't help but notice you walking around here and you seemed a little bit lost. There's been a rash of break-ins taking place in this area and I was just checking to see if you're okay." and then Trayvon just started kicking his teeth in he wouldn't be lying about so much of what happened. You know?

The girlfriend did say that Zimmerman answered Trayvon's question with the words "What are you doing here?" before the headset fell. That's kind of why I'm thinking that Zimmerman maybe grabbed the kid's arm or something before Trayvon punched him.

I've noticed that a lot of the Hispanic people I've met tend to be more physical in general with respect to touch and all that so from that perspective Zimmerman might not have been fully aware of the effect his actions were having. The kid reacts badly and things continue to escalate from there.

Of course I also don't really care about the details of the fight because I think Trayvon had every reason to feel threatened and since he only had his fists and he wasn't some kind of expert martial artist I just don't think Zimmerman's use of deadly force was justified here.

That said, I think the right charge was probably manslaughter. Unless there's some unreleased evidence (apparently it's been sealed) that we don't know about Murder 2 seems like reaching to me.

Would that apply to "White-Hispanics" though?


Sorry...couldn't resist!

[TheSkeptic]

The prosecution seems like it will have a much tougher job than the defense. The prosecution has to prove 100 percent that Zimmerman did it and is 100 percent guilty. All the defense has to do is create doubt and with that bogus Stand Your Ground law, it looks like it might be easy to do so.

Zimmerman is probably a prick and a piece of crap but none of us were there so we honestly don't know what happened. I just think it's funny how so many people are automatically wanting to create shit over racism when they don't even have hardly any of the facts. It's like people want Zimmerman to be a psycho racist so they can throw stones at him and bitch about racism.
Why is it automatically assumed that when a white person does anything wrong to a black person or a person that is a minority that it's automatically a hate crime or has something to do with racism? What if people just do bad shit because they're evil or just bad?

Beyond reasonable doubt =/= 100 percent certainty. That said I do think the prosecution is reaching.

To be honest, I think that it's because people want a convenient explanation when things like this happen. Knowing the cause brings closure and it's a lot easier to write a person off as a racist/sexist/bigot, etc than it is to ask the deeper questions. Those convenient categories tend to also make it easier to ignore or excuse similar behaviours and tendencies in ourselves and the ones we love. So in short maybe it's a defense mechanism?

Zimmerman though probably did profile Trayvon. Maybe racially or maybe because he thought he could exert some authority over him. I think both explanations would make sense but Zimmerman personally strikes me more as prejudiced and influenced by his own perceptions than a racist in the sense of lighting matches for the Klan.

For the record, I don't want to throw stones at him or anything. I want him behind bars and/or sued in civil court. Not because he could be a racist but because he shot a child who was screaming for help. He needs to be held responsible one way or another imo.


Would that apply to "White-Hispanics" though?


Sorry...couldn't resist!

Touché. :lol

Honestly I've been around both white hispanics and non-white hispanics and there weren't that many noticeable differences in this regard. It probably varies from country to country (and person) more than anything else but I've seen it enough times to think it might be a cultural trait in some cases.

I'm just thinking that since he's lied the most about how the altercation started that that's probably where he messed up legally. An attempt to detain the kid would fall into that and I think that a scenario like that one would fit the eyewitness accounts and the 911 call somewhat.

[Wild Cobra]

For the record, I don't want to throw stones at him or anything. I want him behind bars and/or sued in civil court. Not because he could be a racist but because he shot a child who was screaming for help. He needs to be held responsible one way or another imo.

Yet there are to my knowledge three eye witnesses who say it was Zimmerman screaming for help.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yet there are to my knowledge three eye witnesses who say it was Zimmerman screaming for help.

I have seen the one TV news spot of the guy that talked behind his door so you couldn't see him. What else is there?

[TheSkeptic]

Yet there are to my knowledge three eye witnesses who say it was Zimmerman screaming for help.

I believe most of those weren't completely sure and that at least one of them had said that the person calling for help was the younger one but that they'd been told that that individual was Zimmerman.

Using common sense though, that doesn't sound like a grown man. Owen, an audio expert, has already proved it wasn't Zimmerman as well. Combine that with the fact that it's highly unlikely that Zimmerman would've been that afraid if he was about to pull the trigger and that the screams stopped immediately after the shot and I just don't buy that at all.

Above all else though, I believe Trayvon's mother.

[Wild Cobra]

I believe most of those weren't completely sure and that at least one of them had said that the person calling for help was the younger one but that they'd been told that that individual was Zimmerman.

Using common sense though, that doesn't sound like a grown man. Owen, an audio expert, has already proved it wasn't Zimmerman as well. Combine that with the fact that it's highly unlikely that Zimmerman would've been that afraid if he was about to pull the trigger and that the screams stopped immediately after the shot and I just don't buy that at all.

Above all else though, I believe Trayvon's mother.
Believe as you wish. I think Owens was out fort his 15 minutes of fame, and did get a position as a paid legal prosecution witness.

Follow the money...

[Stringer_Bell]

Above all else though, I believe Trayvon's mother.

Your belief in his mother is as strong as my belief that the "Justice for Trayvon" cd will be #1 on iTunes and make a nice profit for her in addition to the civil suit against Zimmerman. Cuz hey, nothing says "pain and suffering" like claiming it's your son's voice screaming for help.

Like my white brother WC says, follow the money...

Edit: I really don't wanna be a dick, but think about it - who is gonna stand in front of someone with a gun pointed at them and yell help? The quicker they tell us if Trayvon was shot in the back, the easier this is to sort out.

[CosmicCowboy]

Your belief in his mother is as strong as my belief that the "Justice for Trayvon" cd will be #1 on iTunes and make a nice profit for her in addition to the civil suit against Zimmerman. Cuz hey, nothing says "pain and suffering" like claiming it's your son's voice screaming for help.

Like my white brother WC says, follow the money...

Edit: I really don't wanna be a dick, but think about it - who is gonna stand in front of someone with a gun pointed at them and yell help? The quicker they tell us if Trayvon was shot in the back, the easier this is to sort out.

Witnesses have already said Martin was shot in the chest and there were close contact powder burns on his hoodie. Zimmerman may be a dick but he's not gonna get convicted of second degree murder.

[boutons_deux]

"Trayvon was shot in the back"

It doesn't matter where the entry point was, Z stalked guy, provoked him into standing his ground in self defense and then shot him dead.

"follow the money"

where is the money in this murder case?

Very self-indicting to consider yourself a bro to WC

[CosmicCowboy]

Fuzzy and Skeptic are going all in on the earwitness when the defense is holding trips on eyewitnesses. I want to play poker with these idiots.

[Stringer_Bell]

"follow the money"

where is the money in this murder case?

The trademarks and copyrighted phrases, the civil suit. The family will be set for life, even if Zimmerman never goes to jail.

[GSH]

See I could see this except for the girlfriend's testimony.




Hahaha... you remember all the shit about Trayvon's anonymous, underage "girlfriend", from the press conference? (Underage being important, because it means they could keep her identity a secret.) How she was on the phone with Trayvon for 400 minutes on the day of the shooting? How she was just so devastated about his death, and couldn't even make herself attend the funeral?

Well they have tracked her down, and dredged up her Twitter history. And guess what? It's all bullshit. Oh, the girl exists, and she did talk to Trayvon on the telephone. But virtually ALL of the rest of the narrative is a big, steaming pile. We don't know what was actually said on the phone calls that evening. But there is sure as hell no reference to ANY problems in the girl's tweets. In fact, you could say that her tweets were... abnormal? for someone who has just been on a life-and-death call with her "boyfriend".

The attornies thought they prevented anyone from seeing her tweets, by scrubbing the accounts, and deleting them ahead of time. I guess the dumb shits actually believed that something could be totally scrubbed from the Internet that easily.

So if you really mean what you said - that you might buy it if not for the account of the girlfriend - you might want to wait before making a final opinion.

BTW - another little fun fact that I didn't know. Under Florida law, the parents can't bring a civil suit unless there is an arrest. If I were a more cynical person, I might think that had something to do with all the media circus, and the fake narrative about the girlfriend. But I know that greedy-ass attornies never do things like that.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy and Skeptic are going all in on the earwitness when the defense is holding trips on eyewitnesses. I want to play poker with these idiots.

What are you talking about? I just asked if there were any actual official reports of witnesses or interviews of witnesses that have been seen. I don't watch TV other than sports and definitely not TV news.

I have read all kinds of conflicting print reports as to the he said she said game. i mean for fucks sake we are talking about a WC comment as if hes not well known for just making shit up.

Is there other official witness reports, transcripts or videos of interviews with witnesses that I have not seen that you can point me to? I have looked and not found anything.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Hahaha... you remember all the shit about Trayvon's anonymous, underage "girlfriend", from the press conference? (Underage being important, because it means they could keep her identity a secret.) How she was on the phone with Trayvon for 400 minutes on the day of the shooting? How she was just so devastated about his death, and couldn't even make herself attend the funeral?

Well they have tracked her down, and dredged up her Twitter history. And guess what? It's all bullshit. Oh, the girl exists, and she did talk to Trayvon on the telephone. But virtually ALL of the rest of the narrative is a big, steaming pile. We don't know what was actually said on the phone calls that evening. But there is sure as hell no reference to ANY problems in the girl's tweets. In fact, you could say that her tweets were... abnormal? for someone who has just been on a life-and-death call with her "boyfriend".

The attornies thought they prevented anyone from seeing her tweets, by scrubbing the accounts, and deleting them ahead of time. I guess the dumb shits actually believed that something could be totally scrubbed from the Internet that easily.

So if you really mean what you said - that you might buy it if not for the account of the girlfriend - you might want to wait before making a final opinion.

BTW - another little fun fact that I didn't know. Under Florida law, the parents can't bring a civil suit unless there is an arrest. If I were a more cynical person, I might think that had something to do with all the media circus, and the fake narrative about the girlfriend. But I know that greedy-ass attornies never do things like that.

Do you have anything to substantiate any of this. I know that CC who at least will not lie out of course would be all over that if it was the case.

I mean why should we believe you of all people after your claims as to what is typical in terms of Florida indictments or what is necessary to be included in a PC affidavit anywhere in the US?

Your full of shit quite often. How is this any different?

I know how about you accuse us of trying to pigeonhole a narrative and then refuse to talk about anything other than the Himalayan snowfall for a couple of days?

[Stringer_Bell]

BTW - another little fun fact that I didn't know. Under Florida law, the parents can't bring a civil suit unless there is an arrest. If I were a more cynical person, I might think that had something to do with all the media circus, and the fake narrative about the girlfriend. But I know that greedy-ass attornies never do things like that.

For real? Well, there was an arrest, right? Me thinks the girlfriend should get a cut of the t-shirt money too.

"He could've been the next President, he could've been the next Steve Jobs..."

1lDfxzvxWUY

xO-k4GqbATg

[Jacob1983]

Where the fuck is Dexter on this? If this shit happened on Dexter, the suspect would be on Dexter's table. I wonder if this incident could be in an episode of Dexter? Too soon?

[bobbyjoe]

Fuzzy and Skeptic are going all in on the earwitness when the defense is holding trips on eyewitnesses. I want to play poker with these idiots.

If you've followed this story closely, there is no eyewitness that has been reported who has provided strong evidence one way or another.

First off, it was very dark at the time of the shooting and I believe it was raining as well. A couple of the 911 calls referred to a man in a white t-shirt, which neither was wearing. Most eyewitnesses have admitted that it was hard to see due to the darkness.

Secondly, If you are referring to the witness "John" who identified the screaming man on the bottom as wearing a red sweater, his testimony was that upon seeing the fight, he went into his townhouse to call 911 and that when he looked down the guy on the top was then face down on the ground and dead.

That testimony is not a game changing piece of evidence because he's already admitted that he did not see who was on the bottom at the time the actual shot was fired. Several witnesses have stated they saw Z and M wrestling, so obviously the person who was on top at one moment wasn't necessarily on top the entirety of the fight.

It is definitely good evidence for Zimmerman if he's credible and no one contradicts him and likely would kill any hope of a Murder-2 conviction, but the fact that he was in his townhouse when the shot was fired and he didn't see what transpired moments before the shot weakens the value of his testimony.

I don't see it as gamechanging because you still have to have a reasonable fear for your life in order to use deadly force. You have to convince a jury why you were justified in elevating a street fight into a killing and took a 17 year old's life who was unarmed and not committing any crime. Now if an eyewitness would testify that he saw Trayvon bashing George's head into the ground or trying to take Z's gun or yelling tha Z was going to die, that is a different story altogether and Z will obviously walk.

Some posters on this thread seem to believe that the mere fact there was a fight is exculpatory evidence and means Z is innocent. But the law is clear that in order to be justified in using deadly force, there has to be a reasonable fear of severe bodily injury or death. Does this wrestling in the street rise to that level? No. Does having your head bashed into the ground? Yes. However, if there's an eyewitness who has stated this that's news to me.

Lastly there is no reported eyewitness who saw the fight from start to finish. Each of the ones who has come forward at one point went into their house to call 911. You typically get much more powerful evidence from an eyewitness than you are going to in this case.

Setting aside eyewitnesses or earwitnesses or FBI tape analysis, I think the common sense aspect is the one that's the toughest for Zimmerman to overcome when a jury listens to the evidence. Zimmeran just may have screwed the pooch and incriminated himself by giving a try to the police that is inconsistent with other known facts.

The prosecutor testified at the bail hearing that Z told police he was having his head bashed into the ground while being suffocated by Trayvon. Obviously you can't be being suffocated yet audibly in an unmuffled manner yell for help for a 45 second duration. You just can't.

Furthermore, why would you be yelling for help one second prior to having made a conscious and voluntary decision to shoot someone attacking you?
The prosecution will be able to prove that there was less than one second between the last cry for help and the gunshot. It's on the tape.

The issue for Z in this case is that his story just doesn't add up... I am willing to bet that the prosecution relies more on the inconsistencies in his stories than on an earwitness.

[bobbyjoe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urq1eAxdRE8

Here is the 911 call.

:40 - Audible, clear yell of "Help"
:41- Audbile, clear gunshot

For those who think it was Zimmerman's voice on this tape, please explain why you believe that the guy holding the gun and firing a shot is yelling help? How is that more believable than the guy who knows he's about to get shot yelling for help?

What would be the need to yell for help if you are in the process of firing a gun?

[E-RockWill]

Hahaha... you remember all the shit about Trayvon's anonymous, underage "girlfriend", from the press conference? (Underage being important, because it means they could keep her identity a secret.) How she was on the phone with Trayvon for 400 minutes on the day of the shooting? How she was just so devastated about his death, and couldn't even make herself attend the funeral?

Well they have tracked her down, and dredged up her Twitter history. And guess what? It's all bullshit. Oh, the girl exists, and she did talk to Trayvon on the telephone. But virtually ALL of the rest of the narrative is a big, steaming pile. We don't know what was actually said on the phone calls that evening. But there is sure as hell no reference to ANY problems in the girl's tweets. In fact, you could say that her tweets were... abnormal? for someone who has just been on a life-and-death call with her "boyfriend".

The attornies thought they prevented anyone from seeing her tweets, by scrubbing the accounts, and deleting them ahead of time. I guess the dumb shits actually believed that something could be totally scrubbed from the Internet that easily.

So if you really mean what you said - that you might buy it if not for the account of the girlfriend - you might want to wait before making a final opinion.

BTW - another little fun fact that I didn't know. Under Florida law, the parents can't bring a civil suit unless there is an arrest. If I were a more cynical person, I might think that had something to do with all the media circus, and the fake narrative about the girlfriend. But I know that greedy-ass attornies never do things like that.

Link it or shut it....

[TheSkeptic]

Believe as you wish. I think Owens was out fort his 15 minutes of fame, and did get a position as a paid legal prosecution witness.

Follow the money...

Ok. If he's after his 15 minutes of fame, then what possible incentive could he have for being inaccurate? His resume is impressive, his software has been admitted in court before, and people like ElNono have been agreeing that the technology isn't that much of a problem.

While he could make the headlines by manipulating the results, if it was later proven that he was completely and utterly wrong that would really damage his professional credibility and his ability to gain clients in the future. If anything, that gives him even more reason to make sure that his findings are correct.



Your belief in his mother is as strong as my belief that the "Justice for Trayvon" cd will be #1 on iTunes and make a nice profit for her in addition to the civil suit against Zimmerman. Cuz hey, nothing says "pain and suffering" like claiming it's your son's voice screaming for help.

Like my white brother WC says, follow the money...

Edit: I really don't wanna be a dick, but think about it - who is gonna stand in front of someone with a gun pointed at them and yell help? The quicker they tell us if Trayvon was shot in the back, the easier this is to sort out.

Again. There's no money to be made by lying about whether or not it's her son's voice on the tape. I've been following this case fairly closely and I believe that her grief is genuine and that she's able to recognize the voice of her child.

The trademark probably just means that she got sound legal advice. And I would hope that they'd launch a civil suit on Zimmerman since I've been advocating that approach from the beginning.

Pretty sure it was a chest shot.


Hahaha... you remember all the shit about Trayvon's anonymous, underage "girlfriend", from the press conference? (Underage being important, because it means they could keep her identity a secret.) How she was on the phone with Trayvon for 400 minutes on the day of the shooting? How she was just so devastated about his death, and couldn't even make herself attend the funeral?

...


Link?

And also, the phone records corroborate her story somewhat.




I don't see it as gamechanging because you still have to have a reasonable fear for your life in order to use deadly force. You have to convince a jury why you were justified in elevating a street fight into a killing and took a 17 year old's life who was unarmed and not committing any crime. Now if an eyewitness would testify that he saw Trayvon bashing George's head into the ground or trying to take Z's gun or yelling tha Z was going to die, that is a different story altogether and Z will obviously walk.

Some posters on this thread seem to believe that the mere fact there was a fight is exculpatory evidence and means Z is innocent. But the law is clear that in order to be justified in using deadly force, there has to be a reasonable fear of severe bodily injury or death. Does this wrestling in the street rise to that level? No. Does having your head bashed into the ground? Yes. However, if there's an eyewitness who has stated this that's news to me.

The prosecutor testified at the bail hearing that Z told police he was having his head bashed into the ground while being suffocated by Trayvon. Obviously you can't be being suffocated yet audibly in an unmuffled manner yell for help for a 45 second duration. You just can't.

The issue for Z in this case is that his story just doesn't add up... I am willing to bet that the prosecution relies more on the inconsistencies in his stories than on an earwitness.

You've saved me a lot of typing tbh. Thanks. :tu

With respect to the bolded and the story about Zimmerman getting his head bashed into the concrete, I thought that this needed repeating:

"The prosecuting attorney, after saying "I didn't know we were going to be trying the case today," is back to ask questions of state attorney's investigator Dale Gilbreath, after O'Mara asked questions challenging the state's assertions.

The prosecutor asked Gilbreath whether there was any evidence indicating that Zimmerman's account that Martin bashed his head against a sidewalk wasn't true. Gilbreath said yes."

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/20/live-blog-attorney-seeks-bond-for-george-zimmerman/

Judging by that link I think it's safe to assume that while Zimmerman did hit his head on something and sustain some injuries, the severe head bashing that he used to justify the use of his gun didn't happen. Just saying.

But after reading what else was in that link, I think I'm starting to form a timeline in my head that would take most of the evidence we've seen into account. I'll see if I can put it together later.

[bobbyjoe]

Your belief in his mother is as strong as my belief that the "Justice for Trayvon" cd will be #1 on iTunes and make a nice profit for her in addition to the civil suit against Zimmerman. Cuz hey, nothing says "pain and suffering" like claiming it's your son's voice screaming for help.

Like my white brother WC says, follow the money...

Edit: I really don't wanna be a dick, but think about it - who is gonna stand in front of someone with a gun pointed at them and yell help? The quicker they tell us if Trayvon was shot in the back, the easier this is to sort out.

ABC News is reporting that the individual who took the photograph of Zimmerman's bloody head 3 minutes after the shooting saw visible gunpowder on Trayvon's sweatshirt

Trayvon was found face down per the police report.

Zimmerman claims he was underneath Trayvon and shot him in the chest, but that Trayvon fell over after being shot which is how he ended up face down.

But if Zimmerman's claim is true, how did the photographer see gunpowder on Trayvon's sweatshirt? It is another bit, like the 911 call and eyewitness statements from Cutcher and her roommate, which are more consistent with Zimmerman shooting Trayvon in the back.

[TheSkeptic]

ABC News is reporting that the individual who took the photograph of Zimmerman's bloody head 3 minutes after the shooting saw visible gunpowder on Trayvon's sweatshirt

Trayvon was found face down per the police report.

Zimmerman claims he was underneath Trayvon and shot him in the chest, but that Trayvon fell over after being shot which is how he ended up face down.

But if Zimmerman's claim is true, how did the photographer see gunpowder on Trayvon's sweatshirt? It is another bit, like the 911 call and eyewitness statements from Cutcher and her roommate, which are more consistent with Zimmerman shooting Trayvon in the back.

I've heard this one as well but I thought I'd wait for the official report before deciding anything one way or another.

If he shot the kid in the back it's a completely different story in my opinion. Since they were also fairly close when Zimmerman fired (if it was in the back) I could also understand the charge of murder 2 to be honest.

I'm thinking that the bullet forensics will just show that Zimmerman shot him while in a physically dominant position though. Didn't the funeral director or whoever say that it was just the bullet to the chest?

[bobbyjoe]

I've heard this one as well but I thought I'd wait for the official report before deciding anything one way or another.

If he shot the kid in the back it's a completely different story in my opinion. Since they were also fairly close when Zimmerman fired (if it was in the back) I could also understand the charge of murder 2 to be honest.

I'm thinking that the bullet forensics will just show that Zimmerman shot him while in a physically dominant position though. Didn't the funeral director or whoever say that it was just the bullet to the chest?

I believe he did. I wish more facts were released, especially on forensic evidence. There seem to be more questions than answers.

Come to think of it, if he was shot in the back the prosecution would have mentioned that in the bail hearing, so there must be some other explanation for the photographer's observation

Perhaps the photographer didn't notice the gunpowder until the police rolled Martin over on his chest to try CPR and that's when he noticed the residue and the wording of the ABC article was misleading.

[Trill Clinton]

Lol@ whites getting "fucked with" by cops just as much as blacks. Them giving you a hard time for speeding or underage drinking is not the same as getting shot in cold blood as many cops have done to black men.

[Trill Clinton]

The trademarks and copyrighted phrases, the civil suit. The family will be set for life, even if Zimmerman never goes to jail.

Well this is obviously a high profile case. Many people could be using trayvons death, name and image to make money. Why not copyright it? Would you allow strangers to capitalize on your childs death?

[GSH]

We've all seen the photos released by the Martin family's attornies. Trayvon was a skinny, angelic 12-year-old who was totally unfamiliar with things like fights. And it was important that everyone see Trayvon that way, to get the reaction they wanted. After all, how could anyone see that little child as any kind of threat? Zimmerman was obviously lying.

The first photo (that I hadn't seen until last night) shows the size of Trayvon's arms. It's slightly more recent than those press photos. The second shows Trayvon refereeing a fight near his school. I guess if I was trying to set up a big payoff through a civil suit, I wouldn't show these photos either. [Note: go ahead and try to say it's not him. I mean, just because someone on the video calls him by name, and it's at the school he went to. Could be another, look-alike Trayvon, right?]

http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-tattoos.jpg?w=640
0wELTLnTWnA

BTW - look at the :36 mark of the video. See the hand, pushing the kid forward? Do any of the other kids look like they are wearing long-sleeved dress shirts and watches? To me, it looks a lot more like one of the teachers was outside watching the fights. Pretty sick if it is. I know, I know - a kid could dress that way if he wants to. But he sure would be out of place.

[DMX7]

We've all seen the photos released by the Martin family's attornies. Trayvon was a skinny, angelic 12-year-old who was totally unfamiliar with things like fights. And it was important that everyone see Trayvon that way, to get the reaction they wanted. After all, how could anyone see that little child as any kind of threat? Zimmerman was obviously lying.

The first photo (that I hadn't seen until last night) shows the size of Trayvon's arms. It's slightly more recent than those press photos. The second shows Trayvon refereeing a fight near his school. I guess if I was trying to set up a big payoff through a civil suit, I wouldn't show these photos either. [Note: go ahead and try to say it's not him. I mean, just because someone on the video calls him by name, and it's at the school he went to. Could be another, look-alike Trayvon, right?]

http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-tattoos.jpg?w=640
0wELTLnTWnA

BTW - look at the :36 mark of the video. See the hand, pushing the kid forward? Do any of the other kids look like they are wearing long-sleeved dress shirts and watches? To me, it looks a lot more like one of the teachers was outside watching the fights. Pretty sick if it is. I know, I know - a kid could dress that way if he wants to. But he sure would be out of place.


And this proves Zimmerman was right to chase down and kill an unarmed high school kid minding his own business how?

[boutons_deux]

The apologists here for right-wing/Repug/"Christian" racists will always defend killing blacks, "they deserved it", they're Welfare Queens in Cadillacs, they're genetically inferior (in so many words), etc, etc.

[Stringer_Bell]

Well this is obviously a high profile case. Many people could be using trayvons death, name and image to make money. Why not copyright it? Would you allow strangers to capitalize on your childs death?

I never hated on her decision, the bills need to get paid and you're right - some jerk could've easily come into the picture and copyrighted stuff. I was responding to a question asking "what money?"

[Wild Cobra]

Ok. If he's after his 15 minutes of fame, then what possible incentive could he have for being inaccurate? His resume is impressive, his software has been admitted in court before, and people like ElNono have been agreeing that the technology isn't that much of a problem.

While he could make the headlines by manipulating the results, if it was later proven that he was completely and utterly wrong that would really damage his professional credibility and his ability to gain clients in the future. If anything, that gives him even more reason to make sure that his findings are correct.

His claim is a match should be at least 90% and the match between Zimmerman talking and the screaming for help was only 48%. that only means it is not a conclusive match. It does not mean it wasn't Zimmerman's voice in both cases. Only at one point is he quoted and it appears he is talking about statistics. Statistics do not make facts. There was not enough of a voice sample to make an accurate comparison, especially since normal talking and screaming like a stuck pig are two completely different circumstances.

What does he have to gain? He might solidly believe Zimmerman is guilty, and with more court ordered samples can prove such. Thing is, it's not going to happen with the samples he has. I think he's wrong, and will end up looking like a fool.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

We've all seen the photos released by the Martin family's attornies. Trayvon was a skinny, angelic 12-year-old who was totally unfamiliar with things like fights. And it was important that everyone see Trayvon that way, to get the reaction they wanted. After all, how could anyone see that little child as any kind of threat? Zimmerman was obviously lying.

The first photo (that I hadn't seen until last night) shows the size of Trayvon's arms. It's slightly more recent than those press photos. The second shows Trayvon refereeing a fight near his school. I guess if I was trying to set up a big payoff through a civil suit, I wouldn't show these photos either. [Note: go ahead and try to say it's not him. I mean, just because someone on the video calls him by name, and it's at the school he went to. Could be another, look-alike Trayvon, right?]

http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-tattoos.jpg?w=640
0wELTLnTWnA

BTW - look at the :36 mark of the video. See the hand, pushing the kid forward? Do any of the other kids look like they are wearing long-sleeved dress shirts and watches? To me, it looks a lot more like one of the teachers was outside watching the fights. Pretty sick if it is. I know, I know - a kid could dress that way if he wants to. But he sure would be out of place.

Is this how you operate. Throw out some shit and when people call you out on doing it, you just ignore it until the next day for the next round of bullshit? gmfb.

Oh and that picture of that arm looks straight up RIPPED!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Statistics do not make facts.

Another post from the land of stupid.

I have a counter example. Lets say someone administers and IQ test to you and it comes back a 55. That 55 is a statistic. The statement WC's IQ is a 55 is a fact.

If you meausre my height the tape measure reads. 6'3". Again both a stat and a fact.

The rest of your comment is not worth responding to because even with all your amazing google knowledge on forensic voice analysis we do not have enough information one way or another to make the assertions you claim.

[TheSkeptic]

His claim is a match should be at least 90% and the match between Zimmerman talking and the screaming for help was only 48%. that only means it is not a conclusive match. It does not mean it wasn't Zimmerman's voice in both cases. Only at one point is he quoted and it appears he is talking about statistics. Statistics do not make facts. There was not enough of a voice sample to make an accurate comparison, especially since normal talking and screaming like a stuck pig are two completely different circumstances.

What does he have to gain? He might solidly believe Zimmerman is guilty, and with more court ordered samples can prove such. Thing is, it's not going to happen with the samples he has. I think he's wrong, and will end up looking like a fool.

...I don't really know where to begin here...I just don't have the time...

Look I hate to post and run but let's just say that I'm going with Owen/Trayvon's mother on this one unless the defense can put together a decent refutation (which they won't be able to imo).

[TheSkeptic]

We've all seen the photos released by the Martin family's attornies. Trayvon was a skinny, angelic 12-year-old who was totally unfamiliar with things like fights. And it was important that everyone see Trayvon that way, to get the reaction they wanted. After all, how could anyone see that little child as any kind of threat? Zimmerman was obviously lying.

The first photo (that I hadn't seen until last night) shows the size of Trayvon's arms. It's slightly more recent than those press photos. The second shows Trayvon refereeing a fight near his school. I guess if I was trying to set up a big payoff through a civil suit, I wouldn't show these photos either. [Note: go ahead and try to say it's not him. I mean, just because someone on the video calls him by name, and it's at the school he went to. Could be another, look-alike Trayvon, right?]




http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-tattoos.jpg?w=640
0wELTLnTWnA

BTW - look at the :36 mark of the video. See the hand, pushing the kid forward? Do any of the other kids look like they are wearing long-sleeved dress shirts and watches? To me, it looks a lot more like one of the teachers was outside watching the fights. Pretty sick if it is. I know, I know - a kid could dress that way if he wants to. But he sure would be out of place.


GSH, nobody's saying that Trayvon was a perfect kid. So what if he got into trouble at school, had a tattoo (or three), and was 6'3? He didn't deserve to die. If anything else, this "evidence" just shows that Trayvon was more or less a normal kid. Your attempts to justify Zimmerman's actions by unfairly demonizing a child who can't speak for himself are awful. Simply awful.

This might be hard for you to believe, but there are people like myself who think Zimmerman is lying for reasons that have nothing to do with Trayvon's photo.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

GSH, nobody's saying that Trayvon was a perfect kid. So what if he got into trouble at school, had a tattoo (or three), and was 6'3? He didn't deserve to die. If anything else, this "evidence" just shows that Trayvon was more or less a normal kid. Your attempts to justify Zimmerman's actions by unfairly demonizing a child who can't speak for himself are awful. Simply awful.

This might be hard for you to believe, but there are people like myself who think Zimmerman is lying for reasons that have nothing to do with Trayvon's photo.

I just want to know why the lead investigator and prosecutor think he is lying.

[Oh, Gee!!]

And this proves Zimmerman was right to chase down and kill an unarmed high school kid minding his own business how?

because supposedly he was a spectator at a tame street fight. the animal

[TheSkeptic]

I just want to know why the lead investigator and prosecutor think he is lying.

You and me both. I'm guessing that there's Zimmerman's inconsistencies and more evidence in addition to that?

[Oh, Gee!!]

if trayvon is the kid with backwards hat, he seemed to do the humane thing at the end. he kept seperation between the kid who was winning the fight and the other kid who had clearly given up.

[Wild Cobra]

...I don't really know where to begin here...I just don't have the time...

Look I hate to post and run but let's just say that I'm going with Owen/Trayvon's mother on this one unless the defense can put together a decent refutation (which they won't be able to imo).
I understand about the time. I also understand people taking your viewpoint because of the way things unfolded through the media.

Consider this...

What if, when Trayvon's mother heard the 911 tape, with the cries for help, if she assumed it was her son, without actually recognizing screams from him, that she probably never heard from him since before puberty.

I say she assumed it was him, because she also assumed he was a helpless victim of a crime. Now that she's said it on record, she's not taking it back. I say she wants revenge, even if Zimmerman was in his right by self defense.

At least with all the other evidence in play, that's sure what it looks like to me.

I suggest you maintain that skeptical status a little bit longer.

[Wild Cobra]

GSH, nobody's saying that Trayvon was a perfect kid. So what if he got into trouble at school, had a tattoo (or three), and was 6'3? He didn't deserve to die. If anything else, this "evidence" just shows that Trayvon was more or less a normal kid. Your attempts to justify Zimmerman's actions by unfairly demonizing a child who can't speak for himself are awful. Simply awful.

This might be hard for you to believe, but there are people like myself who think Zimmerman is lying for reasons that have nothing to do with Trayvon's photo.
Does anyone deserve to die? I will say some do, but I agree Martin did not "deserve" it. At the same time, I have also stated if I were in the same situation, and equipped like Zimmerman says and was, I would shoot whatever motherfucker was on me too.

Yes, Zimmerman could be lying, and probably did with at least one, or a few points. Still, if he actually acted in self defense, he is innocent, by law. Period.

[Stringer_Bell]

GSH, nobody's saying that Trayvon was a perfect kid. So what if he got into trouble at school, had a tattoo (or three), and was 6'3? He didn't deserve to die. If anything else, this "evidence" just shows that Trayvon was more or less a normal kid. Your attempts to justify Zimmerman's actions by unfairly demonizing a child who can't speak for himself are awful. Simply awful.

I think GSH, like most people (since the truth has started to come out about the weak prosecution and media bias in this case), is criticizing the angelic portrait of Trayvon that the race-baiters have tried to paint. It's not neccessarily an attack on Trayvon, although that's ultimately what it looks like. I think it's shit for people to call him a thug, but I equally think it's shit for people to paint him as a quality individual so that they can pursue their own investments. If people don't think Trayvon is a martyr, they're not gonna buy the hoodies, the cds, and shirts...this is PR 101 and it's bombarding every one of us from all sides.

Zimmerman is going free, but he'll be in chains all his life cuz he's obviously suffering some kind of psychosis. The idiots and racebaiters will call it being cold and a guilty conscience, but it's quite clear to the educated that this dude is trapped in his head as a result of the incident. No one wins, and for anyone to act like THEY PERSONALLY get a sense of justice from seeing Zimmerman punished based on popular opinion (rather than the facts) is the real bad guy.

[Wild Cobra]

Zimmerman is going free, but he'll be in chains all his life cuz he's obviously suffering some kind of psychosis. The idiots and racebaiters will call it being cold and a guilty conscience, but it's quite clear to the educated that this dude is trapped in his head as a result of the incident. No one wins, and for anyone to act like THEY PERSONALLY get a sense of justice from seeing Zimmerman punished based on popular opinion (rather than the facts) is the real bad guy.
I agree.

Even if he was guilty and goes free, this incident will haunt him for life, unless he's a psychopath, which I don't think anyone believes.

[Trill Clinton]

Media plays a part but maybe this case is also the straw that broke the camel's back?

[boutons_deux]

The stalker is tatooed for life with this crime. The Monica Lewinsky of vigilante murderers.

[cantthinkofanything]

The stalker is tatooed for life with this crime. The Monica Lewinsky of vigilante murderers.

Have you been waiting to use that one? It's not even close to the same thing.

[TheSkeptic]

I understand about the time. I also understand people taking your viewpoint because of the way things unfolded through the media.

Consider this...

What if, when Trayvon's mother heard the 911 tape, with the cries for help, if she assumed it was her son, without actually recognizing screams from him, that she probably never heard from him since before puberty.

I say she assumed it was him, because she also assumed he was a helpless victim of a crime. Now that she's said it on record, she's not taking it back. I say she wants revenge, even if Zimmerman was in his right by self defense.

At least with all the other evidence in play, that's sure what it looks like to me.

I suggest you maintain that skeptical status a little bit longer.

Not everybody views things from the slant of the media. :rolleyes
I just happen to think that the voice that got silenced by the gunshot couldn't possibly have belonged to a 28 year old man.

As for your theory over the mother, that's a stretch to say the least. The mother lived with Trayvon and she'd been an active part of his life as he grew up. She'd recognize her son's voice and the fact that the screams stopped immediately after the gunshot kind of proves that the person calling for help was most likely the one who was killed.

Owen has credentials, his methods have been used in court before, he's been considered a leading expert in his field, and he came to the conclusion that it wasn't Zimmerman's voice. Ditto for the other guy. Until another expert is able to debunk these findings with qualified evidence I will defer to these guys and go with what they're saying even if I do understand that this might change.


Does anyone deserve to die? I will say some do, but I agree Martin did not "deserve" it. At the same time, I have also stated if I were in the same situation, and equipped like Zimmerman says and was, I would shoot whatever motherfucker was on me too.

Yes, Zimmerman could be lying, and probably did with at least one, or a few points. Still, if he actually acted in self defense, he is innocent, by law. Period.

The problem is that he lied about all the important details such as how the fight started and what caused him to finally shoot. Since we now know that his head was never bashed repeatedly into the concrete (that's the point Zimmerman was using to justify pulling out the gun and shooting), I just don't believe he was in a real life or death type situation by the time he pulled the trigger. A fight, yes. But not one where he was justified in killing the kid.

That said, Murder 2 is probably overcharging unless the prosecution has something more. Based on what we've seen so far though, if I was on the jury I don't think I'd convict Zimmerman on that particular charge.


I think GSH, like most people (since the truth has started to come out about the weak prosecution and media bias in this case), is criticizing the angelic portrait of Trayvon that the race-baiters have tried to paint. It's not neccessarily an attack on Trayvon, although that's ultimately what it looks like. I think it's shit for people to call him a thug, but I equally think it's shit for people to paint him as a quality individual so that they can pursue their own investments. If people don't think Trayvon is a martyr, they're not gonna buy the hoodies, the cds, and shirts...this is PR 101 and it's bombarding every one of us from all sides.

Zimmerman is going free, but he'll be in chains all his life cuz he's obviously suffering some kind of psychosis. The idiots and racebaiters will call it being cold and a guilty conscience, but it's quite clear to the educated that this dude is trapped in his head as a result of the incident. No one wins, and for anyone to act like THEY PERSONALLY get a sense of justice from seeing Zimmerman punished based on popular opinion (rather than the facts) is the real bad guy.

Nobody's trying to saint Trayvon though. Most people are just saying that his flaws weren't a good enough reason to kill him. Sure, it looks like he tweeted dumb things and got into trouble at school but at the same time he also seemed to love his family and had plans for college. He was a normal kid who was still figuring things out. You'll find 17 year olds of all races that have similar backgrounds.

Also, I really don't care if he objects to the photo that was circulating through the media. The US media is terrible. They're biased and they don't always present the facts. We get it. To use this situation as a way to vent personal gripes about the state of journalism when a teenager has died is really no better than what Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and CNN have been doing and it lacks proper perspective. He along with everybody else who's doing this is behaving badly.

And tbh, I think slogans like "I am Trayvon" and hoodie sales aren't necessarily about the kid being a martyr so much as it is folks acknowledging the fact that this was a normal kid who died for no reason and yet a lot of people (so it seems) have been way too quick to believe that his life didn't really count. I suspect that a lot of it comes down to the fact that they understand that this could've been someone they knew and loved.

I for one am just happy that he's been arrested and that he'll be judged by a jury (although I'm also hoping for a lawsuit :D).



I agree.

Even if he was guilty and goes free, this incident will haunt him for life, unless he's a psychopath, which I don't think anyone believes.

I would agree with that as well. No matter what happens he should probably see a professional.

[boutons_deux]

Z is as tatooed for life as a "murderous vigilante of Sanford", an NRA/ALEC version of Monica Lewinsky.

[Stringer_Bell]

Nobody's trying to saint Trayvon though. Most people are just saying that his flaws weren't a good enough reason to kill him. Sure, it looks like he tweeted dumb things and got into trouble at school but at the same time he also seemed to love his family and had plans for college. He was a normal kid who was still figuring things out. You'll find 17 year olds of all races that have similar backgrounds.

Also, I really don't care if he objects to the photo that was circulating through the media. The US media is terrible. They're biased and they don't always present the facts. We get it. To use this situation as a way to vent personal gripes about the state of journalism when a teenager has died is really no better than what Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and CNN have been doing and it lacks proper perspective. He along with everybody else who's doing this is behaving badly.

And tbh, I think slogans like "I am Trayvon" and hoodie sales aren't necessarily about the kid being a martyr so much as it is folks acknowledging the fact that this was a normal kid who died for no reason and yet a lot of people (so it seems) have been way too quick to believe that his life didn't really count. I suspect that a lot of it comes down to the fact that they understand that this could've been someone they knew and loved.

I for one am just happy that he's been arrested and that he'll be judged by a jury (although I'm also hoping for a lawsuit :D).

I have not heard, nor seen, anyone claim that there was ANY reason to kill Trayvon because of his character. I'm sure there are bigots out there thinking his skin color was enough to warrant his death, but I haven't personally seen anyone here or in my real life convos say such a thing.

Those slogans people cling to, it's all a brainwash. It's not solidarity, it's the guilt of self-reflection...and it's not a genuine phenomena that occured when this case originally caught fire (since most people are realizing now that they got carried away). People claim "oh the tragedy, we lost a young man under unclear circumstances" when kids in their own cities are killing each other and never facing justice because of the "no snitch" mentality. Sure, let's put a bounty over the non-black that admitted to shooting a black kid in a fucked up situation...but let's not hold the same level of accountability to the real cold-blooded killers that never accept responsibility for filling our inner-city with drugs and killing innocents in the crossfire. THAT hypocrisy is why the black community cannot rise beyond the shadow of the Sharptons/Jacksons and will continue to allow themselves to be victimized by our own silence. In times like this, non-blacks just laugh at how easy we get led around by colour when we're always the ones begging people stop looking at color when they look at us. It's insanity, and I can't wait for Zimmerman to go free so we can all confront it together and hopefully face what we've allowed ourselves to become because we haven't had the balls to look in the mirror.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Quite frankly what difference is what the 'black community' thinks as pertains this man's guilt or innocence? It seems that a lot of people think that bashing Sharpton and the other demagogues makes a difference one way or another.

It just sounds to me like a pissing contest as to black culture and thats what you are trying to make what this trial is about.

I just want to hear what the state's case is. I want to hear why they think hes lying. This race nonsense is just gratuitous and has no bearing as to anything that the state has actually claimed at any point.

[TheSkeptic]

I have not heard, nor seen, anyone claim that there was ANY reason to kill Trayvon because of his character. I'm sure there are bigots out there thinking his skin color was enough to warrant his death, but I haven't personally seen anyone here or in my real life convos say such a thing.

Those slogans people cling to, it's all a brainwash. It's not solidarity, it's the guilt of self-reflection...and it's not a genuine phenomena that occured when this case originally caught fire (since most people are realizing now that they got carried away). People claim "oh the tragedy, we lost a young man under unclear circumstances" when kids in their own cities are killing each other and never facing justice because of the "no snitch" mentality. Sure, let's put a bounty over the non-black that admitted to shooting a black kid in a fucked up situation...but let's not hold the same level of accountability to the real cold-blooded killers that never accept responsibility for filling our inner-city with drugs and killing innocents in the crossfire. THAT hypocrisy is why the black community cannot rise beyond the shadow of the Sharptons/Jacksons and will continue to allow themselves to be victimized by our own silence. In times like this, non-blacks just laugh at how easy we get led around by colour when we're always the ones begging people stop looking at color when they look at us. It's insanity, and I can't wait for Zimmerman to go free so we can all confront it together and hopefully face what we've allowed ourselves to become because we haven't had the balls to look in the mirror.

All activists are hypocrites to a certain extent and if Zimmerman is guilty then he shouldn't go free.

We know he lied about Trayvon blindsiding him and we know he lied about having his head pounded repeatedly into the pavement. Given what else we know Zimmerman's claim of self-defense may not be justified here. Depending on what else the state has at its disposal, he may not deserve Murder 2 but he does deserve jail time and/or to be sued.

To be fair though, I suspect that this case will come down to jury selection more than anything else.

You're addressing two completely different issues and while I do agree with you that the black community can and should do better, that really doesn't have a bearing on this case in my opinion.

For every black person who takes Sharpton/Jackson seriously there's another who doesn't. Nobody takes the New Black Panthers seriously and at that I believe they were calling for a Citizen's Arrest. They're idiots and they were wrong but, again, why act like they represent the black community as a whole? Doesn't that just reinforce what a lot of African Americans are saying about how people tend to see their skin colour and not an individual with his/her own thoughts and convictions? Rush Limbaugh is as dogmatic as they come and yet you won't hear any white person saying that he speaks on behalf of all Caucasians.

They don't speak for all blacks and frankly the issue of race and the cleaning up of the black community is a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be. Not the least of which is due to the socio-economic issues associated with the inner city and how a lot of those issues impact that particular sub-culture. Though if you want to start a thread on that, that'd be an interesting discussion. :)

[Creepn]

TheSkeptic killing it.

Advice to the white folks: stop empowering a stupid group such as the New Black Panthers with fears that shouldn't even be associated with them in the first place. They are irrelevant and were hushed down. When I saw them on the news, nobody was rallying around them except a few members that I could count using my fingers.

[Wild Cobra]

TheSkeptic killing it.

Advice to the white folks: stop empowering a stupid group such as the New Black Panthers with fears that shouldn't even be associated with them in the first place. They are irrelevant and were hushed down. When I saw them on the news, nobody was rallying around them except a few members that I could count using my fingers.
If you notice, I haven't said much on the topic.

I did hear a news blurb that the Black Panthers said some pretty pissed off things about the "new" assholes using their name.

[bobbyjoe]

I have not heard, nor seen, anyone claim that there was ANY reason to kill Trayvon because of his character. I'm sure there are bigots out there thinking his skin color was enough to warrant his death, but I haven't personally seen anyone here or in my real life convos say such a thing.

Those slogans people cling to, it's all a brainwash. It's not solidarity, it's the guilt of self-reflection...and it's not a genuine phenomena that occured when this case originally caught fire (since most people are realizing now that they got carried away). People claim "oh the tragedy, we lost a young man under unclear circumstances" when kids in their own cities are killing each other and never facing justice because of the "no snitch" mentality. Sure, let's put a bounty over the non-black that admitted to shooting a black kid in a fucked up situation...but let's not hold the same level of accountability to the real cold-blooded killers that never accept responsibility for filling our inner-city with drugs and killing innocents in the crossfire. THAT hypocrisy is why the black community cannot rise beyond the shadow of the Sharptons/Jacksons and will continue to allow themselves to be victimized by our own silence. In times like this, non-blacks just laugh at how easy we get led around by colour when we're always the ones begging people stop looking at color when they look at us. It's insanity, and I can't wait for Zimmerman to go free so we can all confront it together and hopefully face what we've allowed ourselves to become because we haven't had the balls to look in the mirror.

I really admire your calls for black people to me more introspective. I'm a huge believer that you constantly blame others for your problems, you are denying yourself an opportunity to better yourself as a person because when you ask questions like "What could I have done differently to improve my life even if there is prejudice around me?" you tend to challenge yourself and end up in a better place than you would if you blamed everyone but yourself.

That said, there are a few nuances which I think the "Trayvon brought this upon himself/ The media is biased" crowd is ignoring here:

- The comparison to the coverage and scrutiny on the Martin case to the black on black crime issue is a very flawed one. Much of the scrutiny came to this case because a man was not arrested despite shooting an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing but walking home. It's extremely rare that an unarmed teenager of any race is shot dead in the street without so much as an arrest. That's what made it so newsworthy initially. An apples to apples comparison would be a black on black crime where the killer wasn't apprehended and charged, not black on black crime in general.

- Going after Trayvon's past incidents (suspensions, twitter account, youtube of him refereeing a fight) WITHOUT acknowledging and considering that Zimmerman has been arrested in the past for battery and had to go to Anger Management classes is simply flat-out, unequivocal bias. Z also got into a physical confrontation with his ex-girlfriend that ended up with dual restraining orders. Why is it exactly that Trayvon's past is a rational explanation for his allegedly violent behavior on the day of his death but Zimmerman's past is not, particularly when Zimmerman's past is more documented whereas much of Trayvon's indiscretions are more speculative (such as a fight on youtube where he wasn't even an active participant!)?

- If you (And I definitely don't mean you specifically) want to call out the Martin family for being opportunistic and low-class regarding a potential civil suit of Zimmerman, I sure hope you had the same feeling of disgust when Ron Goldman's parents sued OJ Simpson in 1994 or when many non-black families sue in Civil Court when their loved ones are murdered. It is beyond me how anyone can criticize any legal, nonviolent actions of 2 parents who just had to endure an event that is probably the biggest fear of any parent, especially when the "non-cynical/I'll give them the benefit of the doubt" perspective is that they didn't want others to profit from their son's death.
Who's life sucks any harder right now than theirs? Not many...

- When one suggests that the sole or main reason why many folks are riled up about this incident and the way the police/DA's office handled it is because the media attempted to frame the situation to fulfill its agenda through use of babyfaced 14 year old Travyon Martin pictures, they completely discount the possibility that the reason people are riled up just may be that a 17 year old unarmed teenager was shot to death by a neighborhood watchman who wasn't arrested for his actions, irrespective of what either the killer or the victim looked like! .

Even if the media had an agenda, which it almost always does, that isn't the thrust of this case. That's a tangential issue that some be to focusing on to push their own belief that the MSM is ridiculously biased towards playing up racism, etc and make that the primary issue.

I would argue that if most people heard about this case on the radio before seeing any pictures and listened to the 911 calls, they'd be just as shocked that something like that could happen without an arrest being made.

I first heard of this story on talk radio and my reaction didn't change much once I saw the pictures. I found the story very intriguing and wanted to know what was behind it. Personally, when I initially saw the baby-faced Trayvon picture my first thought "no way is that a 17 year old" and had assumed it was old. I'm sure I wasnt the only one that thought so.

It's actually kind of insulting to your fellow American to suggest that the media makes them formulate their beliefs. It suggests they are incapable of formulating their own and seeing through obvious BS. Most Americans are more sophisticated than this and the media is just one of many factors that goes into how they formulate opinions about news events.

Some folks are just obsessed about media bias, to the point where they feel it needs to dominate discussions about current events moreso than the nature of the events themselves. Of course it exists, but most of the time it doesn't take a rocket scientist to snuff it out.

[bobbyjoe]

Does anyone deserve to die? I will say some do, but I agree Martin did not "deserve" it. At the same time, I have also stated if I were in the same situation, and equipped like Zimmerman says and was, I would shoot whatever motherfucker was on me too.

Yes, Zimmerman could be lying, and probably did with at least one, or a few points. Still, if he actually acted in self defense, he is innocent, by law. Period.

Would you shoot someone if they weren't bashing your head into the ground, but did throw punches at you and wrestle with you?

I couldn't agree more that Zimmerman lying/exaggerating on one or two aspects of the case it does not mean he is necessarily guilty of a crime, but I do believe that if the prosecution can demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury that he lied (about something which isn't clearly trivial or minute), the odds of his conviction go up considerably. His credibility is HUGE in this case since no eyewitness observed the entire incident. He's an idiot for lying/exaggerating at all btw and I think his lawyer has a very tough decision in allowing him to take the stand or not.

FYI, reportedly Zimmerman passed something equivalent to a lie-detector test by the police. A voice stress test I believe.

[boutons_deux]

"not mean he is necessarily guilty of a crime"

he started it, he criminally finished it.

[Stringer_Bell]

-The comparison to the coverage and scrutiny on the Martin case to the black on black crime issue is a very flawed one. Much of the scrutiny came to this case because a man was not arrested despite shooting an unarmed teenager who was doing nothing but walking home. It's extremely rare that an unarmed teenager of any race is shot dead in the street without so much as an arrest. That's what made it so newsworthy initially. An apples to apples comparison would be a black on black crime where the killer wasn't apprehended and charged, not black on black crime in general.

- Going after Trayvon's past incidents (suspensions, twitter account, youtube of him refereeing a fight) WITHOUT acknowledging and considering that Zimmerman has been arrested in the past for battery and had to go to Anger Management classes is simply flat-out, unequivocal bias. Z also got into a physical confrontation with his ex-girlfriend that ended up with dual restraining orders. Why is it exactly that Trayvon's past is a rational explanation for his allegedly violent behavior on the day of his death but Zimmerman's past is not, particularly when Zimmerman's past is more documented whereas much of Trayvon's indiscretions are more speculative (such as a fight on youtube where he wasn't even an active participant!)?

- If you (And I definitely don't mean you specifically) want to call out the Martin family for being opportunistic and low-class regarding a potential civil suit of Zimmerman, I sure hope you had the same feeling of disgust when Ron Goldman's parents sued OJ Simpson in 1994 or when many non-black families sue in Civil Court when their loved ones are murdered. It is beyond me how anyone can criticize any legal, nonviolent actions of 2 parents who just had to endure an event that is probably the biggest fear of any parent, especially when the "non-cynical/I'll give them the benefit of the doubt" perspective is that they didn't want others to profit from their son's death. Who's life sucks any harder right now than theirs? Not many...

- When one suggests that the sole or main reason why many folks are riled up about this incident and the way the police/DA's office handled it is because the media attempted to frame the situation to fulfill its agenda through use of babyfaced 14 year old Travyon Martin pictures, they completely discount the possibility that the reason people are riled up just may be that a 17 year old unarmed teenager was shot to death by a neighborhood watchman who wasn't arrested for his actions, irrespective of what either the killer or the victim looked like! .

- It's actually kind of insulting to your fellow American to suggest that the media makes them formulate their beliefs. It suggests they are incapable of formulating their own and seeing through obvious BS. Most Americans are more sophisticated than this and the media is just one of many factors that goes into how they formulate opinions about news events.

Point #1 is false. The petitions started because a white man named Zimmerman shot an unarmed baby-faced black boy holding an iced tea and skittles. No one had pictures of Zimmerman, they only knew a baby-faced black boy was murdered and no arrest made. The Truth: Zimmerman is a rodent looking Mexican and Trayvon isn't a 12 year old boy. The media had to run with it tho because so many people got invested in the hype.

Point #2 is valid, in so far as you acknowledge that Zimmerman's past came out first and then people started looking at Trayvon. Equally irresponsible for people to base anything off their histories - something happened that night, and it involved death. Neither was in a situation of life and death before, so we should leave their histories out of it because people never know how they will react in a situation like that.

To point #3: I think the Goldman's were lightyears beyond the Martins in terms of being "opportunistic." The Martins already have a built-in brand, with NBA stars and Musicians behind them, so they really don't need to pursue Zimmerman when he goes free. In fact, I don't think they will anymore. I hope they make a lot of money cuz it sucks having people uncover so much info on your dead son and he's not their to defend himself. On the other hand, the Goldman's didn't care what the State of California thought, they just wanted someone recognized as the killer of their son - ideally, someone with money.

Point #4 is a lie, no one would have cared about this story if there wasn't a viral campaign based on the perception that a white dude got away with shooting a black kid. The media, and people in general, would not have cared one bit if it was black on black or white on white. It was pitched from the very start as white on black violence (not by the Martins themselves, but by whoever framed the original petitions). End of story.

The point about "Most Americans": I totally agree. Most people think the story is overhyped and just want it to be over now. The only ones still caring are the blacks that feel personally offended/hurt (no idea why they do, they just do), the die-hard liberals that want harder gun legislation, and the people like us that choose sides based on what we believe are interesting stories...those are the only people the media is speaking to on this case. The majority are over it because they know Zimmerman will go free, even if they believe the case was handled wrong by police. "Shit happens," says the American people.

[Nbadan]

it's really not, but there is not enough evidence to conclude murder, now involuntary manslaughter....

[Wild Cobra]

i don't get the point of you all playing judge and jury in here and arguing what's what..the legal system has all the evidence (more than what we'll ever know) and can sort this one out..the fact is none of you really know what happened and this is a tough one to call.
What is the evidence presented is no better than what we already know?

Zimmerman walks, and there will always be those who say he's innocent,. and those who say he's guilty.

Like Michael Jackson.

Like OJ Simpson, etc.

I hope the evidence we don't know about is good enough to give a clear verdict, one way or the other.

[Nbadan]

SAT APR 21, 2012 AT 07:09 PM PDT
More than bloody head revealed: Zimmerman photo shows police lies
by willisnewton

Something is not right here.
Either the photo is wrong or else Timothy Smith's report is wrong.
And now here is the real rub: there is no ongoing outside investigation of Sanford PD, or Norm Wolfinger's office.

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/george-zimmerman-bloody-head.jpg

Zimmerman on cell phone while he was supposedly handcuffed by police...

According to the police report of one Sanford PD officer Timothy Smith, presumably the only live person there with Zimmerman, he should already be in handcuffs. Here is the language of his report:


"I was advised by dispatch that the report of shots fired was possibly coming from 1231 Twin Trees Cir.. I was then advised, after receiving multiple calls, that there was a subject laying in the grass in between the residences of 1231 Twin Trees La. and 2821 Retreat View Cir. I responded to 2821 Retreat View Cir and exited my marked Sanford police vehicle and began to canvas the area. As I walked in between the buildings I observed a white male, wearing a red jacket and blue jeans. I also observed a black male, wearing a gray hooded sweat shirt, laying face down in the grass.

I asked the subject in the red jacket, later identified as George Zimmerman (who was original caller for the suspicious person complaint), if he had seen the subject. Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and he was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all of my verbal commands and was secured in handcuffs. Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, 1 removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head.

Shortly after securing Zimmerman, Officer Ricardo Ayala arrived on scene. I advised Officer Ayala that I had not made contact with the black male subject laying on the ground. I observed Officer Ayala make contact with the subject and attempt to get a response, but was met with negative results. Shortly after this, other officers began to arrive on scene along with SFD Rescue 38 who began to give aid to the subject laying on the ground."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/87828890/Sanford-FL-police-report-on-Trayvon-Martin

link to pdf of police report
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87828890/Sanford-FL-police-report-on-Trayvon-Martin

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/george-zimmerman-bloody-head.jpg

Zimmerman on cell phone while he was supposedly handcuffed by police...

Can't you think of any reason why this has occurred, without the police report being a lie?

[Yonivore]

SAT APR 21, 2012 AT 07:09 PM PDT
More than bloody head revealed: Zimmerman photo shows police lies
by willisnewton

Something is not right here.
Either the photo is wrong or else Timothy Smith's report is wrong.
And now here is the real rub: there is no ongoing outside investigation of Sanford PD, or Norm Wolfinger's office.

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/george-zimmerman-bloody-head.jpg

Zimmerman on cell phone while he was supposedly handcuffed by police...

According to the police report of one Sanford PD officer Timothy Smith, presumably the only live person there with Zimmerman, he should already be in handcuffs. Here is the language of his report:



http://www.scribd.com/doc/87828890/Sanford-FL-police-report-on-Trayvon-Martin

link to pdf of police report
http://www.scribd.com/doc/87828890/Sanford-FL-police-report-on-Trayvon-Martin
The report I read said the photo was taken by a neighbor/bystander, before police arrived, and about 3 minutes after the shooting.

[jack sommerset]

That's a lot of blood. God bless

[clambake]

the zimmerman's already lied. wow

[clambake]

did his lawyer lie, too?

[clambake]

well, this certainly eliminates any thought of him taking the stand.

[clambake]

zimmerman has already spent 54K on living expenses! lol

[clambake]

the silence is deafening.

[clambake]

ok, i'll say it. these zimmerman's have turned out to be real scumbags.

[clambake]

ok, i'll say it. these zimmerman's have turned out to be real scumbags.

[clambake]

apparently the computer agrees with me about the zimmerman family.

[jack sommerset]

What's the story behind the skittles? Did he go to the store that night to buy them or did he steal them? Anyone know? God bless

[clambake]

What's the story behind the skittles? Did he go to the store that night to buy them or did he steal them? Anyone know? God bless

why don't you ask the kid? oh, thats right.

we could ask the zimmerman's, but apparently they lie as a group.

[johnsmith]

or did he steal them?

That was very Wild Cobra like.

[clambake]

pretty quiet in here now.

[johnsmith]

Hey, here's one for you. Now the news keeps referring to Zimmerman as "hispanic".

How come when someone is half white and half something else, they get kicked off the white team for the rest of time when spoken about on the news?

[clambake]

Hey, here's one for you. Now the news keeps referring to Zimmerman as "hispanic".

How come when someone is half white and half something else, they get kicked off the white team for the rest of time when spoken about on the news?

because it was the hispanic half that did the murdering.

[johnsmith]

because it was the hispanic half that did the murdering.

LOL.

Is it the black half that is doing the commanding in regards to Obama?

If so, what does the white side do?

[cheguevara]

Zimmermans cashing in thanks to the media hype. And partly also thanks to Obama for politicizing this. You know damn well the gun nuts and Obama haters are willing to write checks to any cause as long as it's against Obama.

Good job mains stream media, good job Obama administration

:lol maybe the black panthers should up their bounty since Zimmerman can shit 10k now :lmao

[cheguevara]

:lmao Zimmerman having more cash than the entire black panther organization

[ChumpDumper]

LOL.

Is it the black half that is doing the commanding in regards to Obama?

If so, what does the white side do?Obama's white side is the only thing keeping the New Black Panthers from killing all us honkies at gas stations and in operating rooms across the country.

[clambake]

LOL.

Is it the black half that is doing the commanding in regards to Obama?

If so, what does the white side do?

the white side pays for it's gas, tucks tail, and runs.

[clambake]

damnit chump

[clambake]

zimmerman's already lied and there's no comment from team white?

[Trill Clinton]

lock him up!

[jack sommerset]

why don't you ask the kid? oh, thats right.

we could ask the zimmerman's, but apparently they lie as a group.

You're very upset today. I will pray for you. We have heard from everyone about the untimely death of Martin except the people from the last place he was seen at. We all heard about the skittles and trip to get them but we didn't hear from the store about his demeanor that night while shopping. God bless


"Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath! Fret not yourself; it tends only to evil."

[jack sommerset]

zimmerman's already lied and there's no comment from team white?

Are you talking about the Washington generals? God bless

[Wild Cobra]

The report I read said the photo was taken by a neighbor/bystander, before police arrived, and about 3 minutes after the shooting.
Yep, I read that too.

So why was he suppose to be handcuffed?

That's why I asked my question to PropagandaDan.

[Wild Cobra]

zimmerman's already lied and there's no comment from team white?
Oh my God...

Are you making this about race?

[Creepn]

Good lord $200,000! One can make a good living killing negroes!

[Creepn]

Oh my God...

Are you making this about race?

Lol certainly aren't the black folks giving him a pay for killing a negro.

[clambake]

Oh my God...

Are you making this about race?

you're the last person that needs to make this statement.

why don't you comment about the zimmermans lying to the court?

[CosmicCowboy]

How did Zimmerman lie to the court?

[Trill Clinton]

Good lord $200,000! One can make a good living killing negroes!

crazy aint it?

[clambake]

How did Zimmerman lie to the court?

he said he didn't have any money.

[CosmicCowboy]

he said he didn't have any money.


:lmao

Thats all you got?

[jack sommerset]

he said he didn't have any money.

Where is that quote? To be fair we need to see what context Zimmerman said it in. Perhaps he meant he doesn't have any money for a lawyer. I have money for certain things and not for others. God bless

[clambake]

:lmao

Thats all you got?

so, you support zimmerman for lying to the court?

[clambake]

simple question cc

[jack sommerset]

I wonder if clambake labels Obama a liar? God bless

[CosmicCowboy]

:lmao

didn't say that.

Do you know how much money was in the defense fund when he went to court?

And you maintaining he must be guilty of murder because he didn't mention the defense fund is just as dumb.

[clambake]

I wonder if clambake labels Obama a liar? God bless

i can tell you're not comfortable with this latest revelation.

cuz you haven't commented on it.

[clambake]

:lmao

didn't say that.

Do you know how much money was in the defense fund when he went to court?

And you maintaining he must be guilty of murder because he didn't mention the defense fund is just as dumb.

yeah, 150K.....after he blew through 50K on lol "living expenses".

what kind of defense fund is it if you blow through it without spending it on defense?

[jack sommerset]

i can tell you're not comfortable with this latest revelation.

cuz you haven't commented on it.

I have, you just ignored it. God bless

[clambake]

I have, you just ignored it. God bless

saying god bless isn't a comment on the fact that he lied to the court.

[clambake]

the point is he has no problem lying to the court.

[jack sommerset]

saying god bless isn't a comment on the fact that he lied to the court.

I'm going to give you the benifit of the doubt you didn't read my post concerning the context he said he didn't have any money. Enjoy the day and God bless

[TeyshaBlue]

lol...clambake hates him some zimmermans.:lol

[Trill Clinton]

he didn't lie to the courts, he just wasn't keeping it real. which is starting to become a trend for zimmerman.

[clambake]

lol...clambake hates him some zimmermans.:lol


the point is he has no problem lying to the court.

[TeyshaBlue]

btw...clam...zimmerman gets all the premium gas he can burn.

[TeyshaBlue]

Take that, laddie!:lol

[clambake]

btw...clam...zimmerman gets all the premium gas he can burn.

probably 93 octane

[Wild Cobra]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the money isn't "his money." Haven't people donated to a defense fund?

[clambake]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the money isn't "his money." Haven't people donated to a defense fund?

he's already blown 54K on living expenses. his lawyer got jack.

[ChumpDumper]

he's already blown 54K on living expenses. his lawyer got jack.WTF?

He could live half a year at Chez Perry for that scratch.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Business/ht_rick_perry_rented_home_aerial_ll_120110_wb.jpg

[clambake]

tells his attorney to make sure everyone knows he's reading the bible and turns around and lies to the court. lol

[Creepn]

:lmao

Thats all you got?

So you don't think it would have an affect on his credibility? People already thinks he's shady, this only affirms it.

[Wild Cobra]

So you don't think it would have an affect on his credibility? People already thinks he's shady, this only affirms it.
I missed the complete and proper context. Do you have it available?

[ChumpDumper]

The Wild Cobra Context Stonewall.

[clambake]

i'm just glad they shed the light on george's character.

[DMC]

Having collected only 100K from donors, the Martin "love" seems to be more about talk and less about walk. Meanwhile Zimmerman has collected 200K from donors.

[Wild Cobra]

Having collected only 100K from donors, the Martin "love" seems to be more about talk and less about walk. Meanwhile Zimmerman has collected 200K from donors.
People must feel he's being unjustly litigated.

[clambake]

People must feel he's being unjustly litigated.

now that he lied in court, what are people thinking?

[DMC]

People must feel he's being unjustly litigated.
People feel a lot on both sides, only more of those on one side feel strongly enough to spend money. Not so much on the other side.

[DMC]

now that he lied in court, what are people thinking?

Bill Clinton lied in court.

It doesn't mean he's a murderer.

[clambake]

Bill Clinton lied in court.

It doesn't mean he's a murderer.

i missed the 2nd degree murder charged on clinton?

[TeyshaBlue]

i missed the 2nd degree murder charged on clinton?

It was a good cigar, damnit!

[Creepn]

People feel a lot on both sides, only more of those on one side feel strongly enough to spend money. Not so much on the other side.

The fight on Zimmerman's side is multi faceted. It's first and foremost (my opinion) fueled by racism, fight against the media, and the gun nuts.

[DarrinS]

It was a good cigar, damnit!

Ewwww. Oh, was she some great big fat person?

[DMC]

i missed the 2nd degree murder charged on clinton?

Lying in court about something unrelated to the charge does not mean you are guilty of the charge.

So, I doubt anyone who donated to him had second thoughts when they learned it was not disclosed in court. They already feel he's being railroaded for political reasons.

[DMC]

The fight on Zimmerman's side is multi faceted. It's first and foremost (my opinion) fueled by racism, fight against the media, and the gun nuts.
And the fight on Treyvon's side isn't fueled by racism? Had Treyvon been killed by a black man, this would never have made the front page of the local paper.

Also, it seems the racists and gun nuts have more courage of their convictions than the other side of the coin, whoever they may be.

[clambake]

Lying in court about something unrelated to the charge does not mean you are guilty of the charge.
i didn't say that. i said he's a confirmed liar.


So, I doubt anyone who donated to him had second thoughts when they learned it was not disclosed in court.
what do you mean "disclosed"? I agree with you that his supporters could care less if he lied.

They already feel he's being railroaded for political reasons.

what does politics have to do with a guy that lied to the court, that stalked a kid, killed him?

[TheSkeptic]

Having collected only 100K from donors, the Martin "love" seems to be more about talk and less about walk. Meanwhile Zimmerman has collected 200K from donors.

What are you talking about? There have been plenty of fundraisers for Trayvon and all those marches and rallies are hardly a lack of action tbh.



And the fight on Treyvon's side isn't fueled by racism? Had Treyvon been killed by a black man, this would never have made the front page of the local paper.

Also, it seems the racists and gun nuts have more courage of their convictions than the other side of the coin, whoever they may be.

So you're picking a bone with the media and effectively proving Creepn's point.

People can be outraged about the needless death of a teenager without it being about the media or race. I've seen plenty of people also expressing concern about the type of precedent this case can set depending on what the jury decides.

And as for your second point, there are plenty of terrible people who have the "courage of their convictions". That doesn't make them any less wrong in the way they approach the issues.

I'll be the first to agree that the media is just not very even-handed but that's a completely different subject and you're conflating the two imo.

As an aside, it's honestly just so disgusting to me that people are so lazy and one-dimensional that the premature death of a teenager has become a soapbox for airing their views on topics that have ranged from the media to black people to gun rights and self-defence legislation. Worthwhile discussions of course but what really gets my goat is the fact that very few of these opinions have even been remotely well-informed or adequately thought through. Asking for both facts and reasonable logic is just apparently too much. Ugh.

[jack sommerset]

i didn't say that. i said he's a liar

and you said that without providing us with proof. God bless

[clambake]

and you said that without providing us with proof. God bless

z provided the proof. god bless your feeble mind.

[Stringer_Bell]

Can anyone provide a link or quote to these "lies" that Zimmerman told?

[Wild Cobra]

Can anyone provide a link or quote to these "lies" that Zimmerman told?
I'll bet they can show a few links of the hype the media types told, and construe them as lies. I've seen very few direct quotes from Zimmerman.

[jack sommerset]

Maybe chump can start a thread just for clambake to give us a list of lies the Zimmerman told. God bless

[clambake]

judge will have to address the lie. just sit back and finish you cereal.

[clambake]

I'll bet they can show a few links of the hype the media types told, and construe them as lies. I've seen very few direct quotes from Zimmerman.

you think lying to the court about not having money is just hype?

[jack sommerset]

judge will have to address the lie. just sit back and finish you cereal.

Bless your heart. Judge can't address what you are accusing him of. You made it up because you are angry and want revenge. God bless

"Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing."

[clambake]

Bless your heart. Judge can't address what you are accusing him of. You made it up because you are angry and want revenge. God bless

"Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing."

the guy blew 54K in 2 months. :lmao probably never seen that kind of money before.

ask your church to pray to god for lying about the money.

[Stringer_Bell]

I'll bet they can show a few links of the hype the media types told, and construe them as lies. I've seen very few direct quotes from Zimmerman.

No one posted anything, so I guess Zimmerman is still innocent.

[jack sommerset]

the guy blew 54K in 2 months. :lmao probably never seen that kind of money before.

ask your church to pray to god for lying about the money.

Last time I ask because i dont want you to feel stupid for keeping avoiding the question. Where is the proof you speak of brother?

Envy is one of the seven deadly sins. Envy causes unhappiness. As you can see by your irrational and unreasonable conclusion, that Zimmerman is a liar, that your envy of Zimmerman has made its ugly arrival into your head. I will pray for you, brother. God bless



"Always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth."

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Damn you guys are lazy.


The social media campaign is the latest move by the O’Mara Law Group to help improve Zimmerman’s image after a tumultuous few months in the court of public opinion. Earlier this month, Zimmerman set up his own unpolished Web site to solicit funds for himself.

That site was shut down last week, just days before the legal team launched GzLegalCase.com. On Friday, the Associated Press reported that while shutting down the site, his lawyers learned from Zimmerman the site raised more than $200,000 — a fact that was not disclosed when they told the judge overseeing Zimmerman’s case that Zimmerman would have trouble raising money for his bond.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/george-zimmermans-defense-team-launches-social-media-campaign/2012/04/30/gIQAlvtYsT_story.html

He stated in his bond hearing that he would have trouble raising money for the bond. His lawyers said that he had not disclosed the amount of money he had received from donations.

Zimmerman did not 'lie,' but it definitely points to a deceptive nature. Deception does not always come in the form of a lie.

[Geosurface]

The fight on Zimmerman's side is multi faceted. It's first and foremost (my opinion) fueled by racism, fight against the media, and the gun nuts.

Well I can't speak for anyone else but I can certainly say that I don't fit the preconception you have about most Zimmerman supporters. I realize you said it's multi-faceted, I guess I fall under that...

I'm a liberal, atheist, democrat, Obama voter (going to vote for him again too, although with considerably less enthusiasm this time... my biggest gripe with him is that he's nowhere near liberal enough... like he touted himself to be.)

I found out about this story from The Young Turks on March 8th, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CcVCoU-elc in that video.

If you're unfamiliar with them, they're a very liberal web based news program whose host briefly had a show on MSNBC and has one on Current, Al Gore's network.

They presented it as basically GZ = racist white devil gunning down innocent little black child for no reason other than being black.

I pretty much bought that narrative for about a week... but meanwhile, I was still in the habit of going to local Florida news affiliate websites that I picked up on during the Casey Anthony trial, which I was ravenous for any and all details/videos/commentary I could get on. That's when I found the witness John's interview with the Fox station down there. That started me on a journey toward re-evaluating my view of it... it was slow, at first the most I was willing to grant was that maybe they both did stupid things that night, but GZ was definitely still a huge idiot in my eyes.

Well, to try to abbreviate this long story a little... where I stand now is that I basically fully support GZ, I no longer think ANY action he took that night was unreasonable, or questionable. I think he behaved in a brave fashion in an attempt to look out for his community. I think he was put in a horrible situation by Trayvon, and I think he showed great restraint in doing his best to absorb the blows Trayvon was giving him with his arms, shifting himself away from the pavement, etc for a full minute... I think his account that Trayvon went for his gun and threatened him, which I was initially very skeptical of, is most likely true. I think it is probably the one reason a man who had been avoiding using the gun prior to that, and knew the police were likely to arrive at any moment... and that neighbors might be watching exactly what was happening, would feel he had to act, and act then. I think in a burst of adrenaline he gained control of the gun from Trayvon, and probably barely saved his own life.

I don't know if Trayvon really would have beaten him to death, or shot him, I tend to doubt it... but Zimmerman certainly had every reason to fear that scenario. I think self-defense is clear, and completely justified here.

Don't get me wrong, I still think it's a tragedy that Trayvon is dead and I feel awful for his parents. I'd like to think the "thug" crap was just a phase, and a lot of teenagers pull that crap... they dress the thug way, listen to the corresponding music, act hard online or around their friends... smoke weed, etc. I think all of that can be forgiven. I think, in fact, I can even forgive up to the point where he sucker punched Zimmerman (although I can *barely* forgive that, but if you're a 17 year old hot head teen thug, and you really think GZ might be some sort of threat... which btw I don't believe he thought, I'm just trying to be as charitable here as possible...) but what I cannot forgive, at all, in any way shape or form... is straddling a stranger and slamming his head on the pavement. Whether that was 1 head slam, or 10. And can anyone still question whether this at least happened a few times, after the injury photos?

I get criticism for taking GZ's story as true, but I've yet to be given a good reason to doubt his word.

As for this stuff about the $200,000 in the PayPal account... has anyone been able to demonstrate yet that he knew about it prior to the bond hearing? Keep in mind, he was probably the only one with the login, and even if a family member shared access to it, consider how incredibly hectic his life was at the time he had set that up. It wasn't up for that long prior to him being arrested and charged.

A lot of us can't imagine a situation where you might not be able to check something like that at any time... but consider it. You've got lawyers calling you, you've got family talking your ear off, you're a nervous wreck and you are trying to reach the prosecutor to talk to them, you are watching the news, you just set up this PayPal and website, and from the look it had, you clearly weren't some sort of web pro... the guy may not have thought to really check how much money had come in during that incredibly hectic period of time.

Frankly though, here's where I'll get a little controversial. Even if he knew about the $200,000. Even if he, in fact... exaggerated stuff about Trayvon threatening his life and going for the gun (which I stress, I do not believe he did, just sayin'...) when a man acted in legitimate self-defense, which the injury photos and what John saw are enough on their own to prove beyond any reasonable doubt... if that man chooses to embellish to game a system which has shown that it is prepared to charge him when it legally shouldn't, and possibly end up convicting him when it legally shouldn't, I give him a complete green light to lie a little here and there to reduce the chances of him being unjustly burned at the stake to appease stupidity.

Because I feel that the core fact is, he did not desire to come into direct contact with Trayvon, and it was Trayvon's choice for there to be a physical altercation, and ultimately Trayvon's choice to put himself in a position where a man had to shoot him.

Oh btw, sorry this was so long. This is my first post here. I will also confess to not caring at all about football, I registered here because I have a great craving to discuss this topic haha

http://i.imgur.com/8CA7H.gif

[TheSkeptic]

I don't know if Trayvon really would have beaten him to death, or shot him, I tend to doubt it... but Zimmerman certainly had every reason to fear that scenario. I think self-defense is clear, and completely justified here.

Don't get me wrong, I still think it's a tragedy that Trayvon is dead and I feel awful for his parents. I'd like to think the "thug" crap was just a phase, and a lot of teenagers pull that crap... they dress the thug way, listen to the corresponding music, act hard online or around their friends... smoke weed, etc. I think all of that can be forgiven. I think, in fact, I can even forgive up to the point where he sucker punched Zimmerman (although I can *barely* forgive that, but if you're a 17 year old hot head teen thug, and you really think GZ might be some sort of threat... which btw I don't believe he thought, I'm just trying to be as charitable here as possible...) but what I cannot forgive, at all, in any way shape or form... is straddling a stranger and slamming his head on the pavement. Whether that was 1 head slam, or 10. And can anyone still question whether this at least happened a few times, after the injury photos?

I get criticism for taking GZ's story as true, but I've yet to be given a good reason to doubt his word.


Oh btw, sorry this was so long. This is my first post here. I will also confess to not caring at all about football, I registered here because I have a great craving to discuss this topic haha


Finally! Someone who thinks of football when they hear about "the Spurs". :p:

That said, welcome to the forum.

With respect to the bolded, you should probably read the transcript from the hearing. There's a lot of inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story but the biggest one is with respect to him getting his head pounded into the pavement. Judging by the detective's responses, it looks like Zimmerman did hit his head on the cement but the truth is he didn't get his head bashed into it repeatedly.

Here's the relevant portion (that I've already posted a couple of times) as well as the link:


"The prosecuting attorney, after saying "I didn't know we were going to be trying the case today," is back to ask questions of state attorney's investigator Dale Gilbreath, after O'Mara asked questions challenging the state's assertions.

The prosecutor asked Gilbreath whether there was any evidence indicating that Zimmerman's account that Martin bashed his head against a sidewalk wasn't true. Gilbreath said yes."

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/20/live-blog-attorney-seeks-bond-for-george-zimmerman/

So if his self-defense claim (that hinges on a savage and unprovoked beating) is true, then why exaggerate an important point like that? While he's probably not guilty of Murder 2 based on what we've seen, I think manslaughter+ a civil suit would be appropriate.

[clambake]

tbh the case is so dependent on whether george can be trusted to tell the truth, cuz he stalked and killed the other side of the story.

he already lied about the money. this is a fact.

[Geosurface]

Finally! Someone who thinks of football when they hear about "the Spurs". :p:

That said, welcome to the forum.

With respect to the bolded, you should probably read the transcript from the hearing. There's a lot of inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story but the biggest one is with respect to him getting his head pounded into the pavement. Judging by the detective's responses, it looks like Zimmerman did hit his head on the cement but the truth is he didn't get his head bashed into it repeatedly.

Here's the relevant portion (that I've already posted a couple of times) as well as the link:


"The prosecuting attorney, after saying "I didn't know we were going to be trying the case today," is back to ask questions of state attorney's investigator Dale Gilbreath, after O'Mara asked questions challenging the state's assertions.

The prosecutor asked Gilbreath whether there was any evidence indicating that Zimmerman's account that Martin bashed his head against a sidewalk wasn't true. Gilbreath said yes."

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/20/live-blog-attorney-seeks-bond-for-george-zimmerman/

So if his self-defense claim (that hinges on a savage and unprovoked beating) is true, then why exaggerate an important point like that? While he's probably not guilty of Murder 2 based on what we've seen, I think manslaughter+ a civil suit would be appropriate.

LOL, just wiki'd the Spurs, so it's a basketball team eh? haha. Sorry. I don't care about any sports, at all. Never have. Apologies for the stupid error.

Only reason I chose the Seattle team is I had to pick one, and I live near Seattle.

Anyway, I watched the bond hearing in it's entirety and have been paying very close attention to all of the developments, I was in no way impressed by what Gilbreath half-heartedly pseudo-kinda-eluded to there. I'm surprised you were :)

Btw is it just me or does "Gilbreath" sound like the name of an elite quest target Murloc?

http://i.imgur.com/SjATx.png

[clambake]

were you impressed with how he lied about the money?

[clambake]

did you ask if anyone can prove he knew about the money?

[Geosurface]

did you ask if anyone can prove he knew about the money?

Yes

[clambake]

Yes

he's already spent 54K. his attorney already stated that he spent it on "rent and whatever."

you could easily look it up.......if you wanted to.

[Geosurface]

he's already spent 54K. his attorney already stated that he spent it on "rent and whatever."

you could easily look it up.......if you wanted to.

Okay well, his website, while it was still up, said: "funds provided [will be] used only for living expenses, and legal defense."

So let's think about this a bit more carefully... I have some questions for you:



Do you agree that a lot of the donations which brought that total up to $200,000 may have come in immediately prior to, during, and immediately after the bond hearing itself? That would be incredibly logical to assume.
Do you agree that in the hectic period immediately leading up to the bond hearing, he may have been rather preoccupied by finding out if he was being charged/arrested, etc, and may not have had a lot of ability to check the account between being charged and having his bond hearing?
Will you agree that this is an entirely new situation to this man to be having to appeal to the general populace to help him fight back against the incredibly unusual circumstances he finds himself in?
Would you agree that a man who may not have dealt with PayPal much before, and certainly not in amounts like this, may not have been entirely sure those funds were legitimate and could truly be relied upon to be extractable? I think someone who isn't very versed in PayPal might assume it could fall prey to the same sort of "fake high bid on a ghost in a jar on ebay" syndrome, where some of that money might be phantom and never actually see the light of day.
Would you agree that when he said "living expenses and legal defense" he probably mostly had attorney's fees in mind? rather than bond?
Would you agree that when you find yourself in a situation where you and your family members may have to be quitting their job to avoid possible attempts on their life, or extreme harassment at a minimum, and that you and some number of your immediate family had to move out of your own houses, possibly multiple times, and a situation where you and possibly other members of your family found maintaining their previous employment untenable might be the sort of situation which could generate a lot of unusually high and unexpected expenses?

[clambake]

so, he spent 54k of the money but didn't know he could use it?

so, he had to move all his family and help them find new jobs?

so, he thought the money was "mostly" for attorney fee's, yet he hadn't given any to his attorney?

so, he stalks and kills the kid, yet he considers it an incredibly unusual circumstance?

so, you still don't believe his attorney when he said george spent it on rent and whatever?

[clambake]

and i never saw his website. can you show me?

[DarrinS]

Does there even have to be head pounding for this to be self-defense?

IF Trayvon went for the gun, doesn't it automatically become self-defense?

[Trill Clinton]

I knew this zimmerman cat was a self hating loser. He wants to be white so bad its disgusting. look at this clown's myspace profile.

George Zimmerman’s past has once again caught up with him. A MySpace page from 2005 was uncovered with Zimmerman going under the profile name “Joe G” and the username “Only To Be King."

STORY: Zimmerman's Lawyer Addresses Trayvon Martin's Family

In his blog section Zimmerman writes:

Good news???? Bout Damn time!!!!!!!

2 felonies dropped to 1 misdemeanor!!!!!!!!!!! The man knows he was wrong but still got this hump, Thanks to everyone friends and fam, G baby you know your my rock!

Out come of first case......

Im still free! The ex hoe tried her hardest, but the judge saw through it! Big Mike, reppin the Dverse security makin me look a million bucks, broke her down! Thanks to everyone for checkin up on me! Stay tuned for the A.T.F. charges......

The first comment refers to Zimmerman’s altercation when he was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an underage friend of Zimmerman's at a bar.

Zimmerman would later avoid conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.

The second comment refers to a 2005 incident when he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.

In Zimmerman’s About Me section he writes:

"I know alot of yall hatin cause im out and aint ever goin back, i used to look at people like me the same way. Can you really hate on someone for improving thier life? I love the fact that I can still go back home and crash on my boys couch as if i had never left, I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he's at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched. My cousins the cruzado's damn i love yall, shirley and frank DONT PLAY! I gotta be honest I miss that.

I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book. Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!"

This MySpace discovery provides a little bit more insight to the mind state of George Zimmerman, you can view the page by clicking here.




Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-sanford-florida-myspace-page-revealed-details#ixzz1tdbKEiZN

[TheSkeptic]

LOL, just wiki'd the Spurs, so it's a basketball team eh? haha. Sorry. I don't care about any sports, at all. Never have. Apologies for the stupid error.

Only reason I chose the Seattle team is I had to pick one, and I live near Seattle.

Anyway, I watched the bond hearing in it's entirety and have been paying very close attention to all of the developments, I was in no way impressed by what Gilbreath half-heartedly pseudo-kinda-eluded to there. I'm surprised you were :)

Btw is it just me or does "Gilbreath" sound like the name of an elite quest target Murloc?


I used to live in Seattle actually. Gorgeous city. The football association is so impressive to me that I can't even get mad at you for not caring about sports. :lol

It's not just that. If the head pounding doesn't match the forensics and most of Zimmerman's exaggerations/lies are at precise legal points, I wouldn't be surprised if the prosecution attacked his credibility as a part of their case.

Don't get me wrong, Murder 2 is almost certainly the wrong charge but I'd say there's room for manslaughter there as well as a huge lawsuit imo.


Does there even have to be head pounding for this to be self-defense?

IF Trayvon went for the gun, doesn't it automatically become self-defense?

There has to be reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily harm iirc. If his head isn't being pounded repeatedly into the sidewalk then Zimmerman (after following the kid, mind) doesn't really have a leg to stand on there because he's the one who pursued Martin. A broken nose isn't life-threatening or a proper justification to shoot. Since Zimmernan's defense has so far rested on being beated savagely by Trayvon, I'd say that this evidence is actually going to be a serious problem for him.

If anything the kid had more right to reasonable self-defense. Maybe because you're guys, you don't fully understand how threatening Zimmerman's actions were leading up to this.

[Geosurface]

Ha, I just assembled this ridiculous Dave Chappelle inspired/based parody of the Zimmerman/Trayvon situation, realizing fully that it is done very poorly... but if you remember the skit with Dave trying out to be a juror on several famous cases, including O.J., that's what this is built from... and anyone who'd be willing to take a look (while Viacom's copyright claim is at least temporarily suspended due to an appeal I submitted) I'd greatly appreciate your reactions, just try to be gentle http://forums.anandtech.com/images/smilies/familiar/smile.png

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UdrLD0lWa4

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Okay well, his website, while it was still up, said: "funds provided [will be] used only for living expenses, and legal defense."

So let's think about this a bit more carefully... I have some questions for you:



Do you agree that a lot of the donations which brought that total up to $200,000 may have come in immediately prior to, during, and immediately after the bond hearing itself? That would be incredibly logical to assume.
Do you agree that in the hectic period immediately leading up to the bond hearing, he may have been rather preoccupied by finding out if he was being charged/arrested, etc, and may not have had a lot of ability to check the account between being charged and having his bond hearing?
Will you agree that this is an entirely new situation to this man to be having to appeal to the general populace to help him fight back against the incredibly unusual circumstances he finds himself in?
Would you agree that a man who may not have dealt with PayPal much before, and certainly not in amounts like this, may not have been entirely sure those funds were legitimate and could truly be relied upon to be extractable? I think someone who isn't very versed in PayPal might assume it could fall prey to the same sort of "fake high bid on a ghost in a jar on ebay" syndrome, where some of that money might be phantom and never actually see the light of day.
Would you agree that when he said "living expenses and legal defense" he probably mostly had attorney's fees in mind? rather than bond?
Would you agree that when you find yourself in a situation where you and your family members may have to be quitting their job to avoid possible attempts on their life, or extreme harassment at a minimum, and that you and some number of your immediate family had to move out of your own houses, possibly multiple times, and a situation where you and possibly other members of your family found maintaining their previous employment untenable might be the sort of situation which could generate a lot of unusually high and unexpected expenses?


He allowed his lawyers to state that he felt that he would have issues raising the funds for the bond. It was a $200k bail so a bondsman would only require like 10% of that.

Who knows how much money he had when but this notion that he felt that he 'thought' that he would have a hard time raising funds for what would have been $20k or so to a bondsman is just asinine.

His lawyers said he did not tell them about the money at the time.

One thing also needs ot be made clear: the prosecution hasn't been trying their case in the court of public opinion. Perhaps they have nothing substantive to say but I am interested to hear what the case is.

[BradLohaus]

Most I've seen on Zimmerman's background:



George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting

(Reuters) - A pit bull named Big Boi began menacing George and Shellie Zimmerman in the fall of 2009.

The first time the dog ran free and cornered Shellie in their gated community in Sanford, Florida, George called the owner to complain. The second time, Big Boi frightened his mother-in-law's dog. Zimmerman called Seminole County Animal Services and bought pepper spray. The third time he saw the dog on the loose, he called again. An officer came to the house, county records show.

"Don't use pepper spray," he told the Zimmermans, according to a friend. "It'll take two or three seconds to take effect, but a quarter second for the dog to jump you," he said.

"Get a gun."

That November, the Zimmermans completed firearms training at a local lodge and received concealed-weapons gun permits. In early December, another source close to them told Reuters, the couple bought a pair of guns. George picked a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm handgun, a popular, lightweight weapon.

By June 2011, Zimmerman's attention had shifted from a loose pit bull to a wave of robberies that rattled the community, called the Retreat at Twin Lakes. The homeowners association asked him to launch a neighborhood watch, and Zimmerman would begin to carry the Kel-Tec on his regular, dog-walking patrol - a violation of neighborhood watch guidelines but not a crime.

Few of his closest neighbors knew he carried a gun - until two months ago.

On February 26, George Zimmerman shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in what Zimmerman says was self-defense. The furor that ensued has consumed the country and prompted a re-examination of guns, race and self-defense laws enacted in nearly half the United States.

During the time Zimmerman was in hiding, his detractors defined him as a vigilante who had decided Martin was suspicious merely because he was black. After Zimmerman was finally arrested on a charge of second-degree murder more than six weeks after the shooting, prosecutors portrayed him as a violent and angry man who disregarded authority by pursuing the 17-year-old.

But a more nuanced portrait of Zimmerman has emerged from a Reuters investigation into Zimmerman's past and a series of incidents in the community in the months preceding the Martin shooting.

Based on extensive interviews with relatives, friends, neighbors, schoolmates and co-workers of Zimmerman in two states, law enforcement officials, and reviews of court documents and police reports, the story sheds new light on the man at the center of one of the most controversial homicide cases in America.

The 28-year-old insurance-fraud investigator comes from a deeply Catholic background and was taught in his early years to do right by those less fortunate. He was raised in a racially integrated household and himself has black roots through an Afro-Peruvian great-grandfather - the father of the maternal grandmother who helped raise him.

A criminal justice student who aspired to become a judge, Zimmerman also concerned himself with the safety of his neighbors after a series of break-ins committed by young African-American men.

Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.

"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."

"MIXED" HOUSEHOLD

George Michael Zimmerman was born in 1983 to Robert and Gladys Zimmerman, the third of four children. Robert Zimmerman Sr. was a U.S. Army veteran who served in Vietnam in 1970, and was stationed at Fort Myer in Arlington, Virginia, in 1975 with Gladys Mesa's brother George. Zimmerman Sr. also served two tours in Korea, and spent the final 10 years of his 22-year military career in the Pentagon, working for the Department of Defense, a family member said.

In his final years in Virginia before retiring to Florida, Robert Zimmerman served as a magistrate in Fairfax County's 19th Judicial District.

Robert and Gladys met in January 1975, when George Mesa brought along his army buddy to his sister's birthday party. She was visiting from Peru, on vacation from her job there as a physical education teacher. Robert was a Baptist, Gladys was Catholic. They soon married, in a Catholic ceremony in Alexandria, and moved to nearby Manassas.

Gladys came to lead a small but growing Catholic Hispanic enclave within the All Saints Catholic Church parish in the late 1970s, where she was involved in the church's outreach programs. Gladys would bring young George along with her on "home visits" to poor families, said a family friend, Teresa Post.

"It was part of their upbringing to know that there are people in need, people more in need than themselves," said Post, a Peruvian immigrant who lived with the Zimmermans for a time.

Post recalls evening prayers before dinner in the ethnically diverse Zimmerman household, which included siblings Robert Jr., Grace, and Dawn. "It wasn't only white or only Hispanic or only black - it was mixed," she said.

Zimmerman's maternal grandmother, Cristina, who had lived with the Zimmermans since 1978, worked as a babysitter for years during Zimmerman's childhood. For several years she cared for two African-American girls who ate their meals at the Zimmerman house and went back and forth to school each day with the Zimmerman children.

"They were part of the household for years, until they were old enough to be on their own," Post said.

Zimmerman served as an altar boy at All Saints from age 7 to 17, church members said.

"He wasn't the type where, you know, 'I'm being forced to do this,' and a dragging-his-feet Catholic," said Sandra Vega, who went to high school with George and his siblings. "He was an altar boy for years, and then worked in the rectory too. He has a really good heart."

George grew up bilingual, and by age 10 he was often called to the Haydon Elementary School principal's office to act as a translator between administrators and immigrant parents. At 14 he became obsessed with becoming a Marine, a relative said, joining the after-school ROTC program at Grace E. Metz Middle School and polishing his boots by night. At 15, he worked three part-time jobs - in a Mexican restaurant, for the rectory, and washing cars - on nights and weekends, to save up for a car.

After graduating from Osbourn High School in 2001, Zimmerman moved to Lake Mary, Florida, a town neighboring Sanford. His parents purchased a retirement home there in 2002, in part to bring Cristina, who suffers from arthritis, to a warmer climate.

YOUNG INSURANCE AGENT

On his own at 18, George got a job at an insurance agency and began to take classes at night to earn a license to sell insurance. He grew friendly with a real estate agent named Lee Ann Benjamin, who shared office space in the building, and later her husband, John Donnelly, a Sanford attorney.

"George impressed me right off the bat as just a real go-getter," Donnelly said. "He was working days and taking all these classes at night, passing all the insurance classes, not just for home insurance, but auto insurance and everything. He wanted to open his own office - and he did."

In 2004, Zimmerman partnered with an African-American friend and opened up an Allstate insurance satellite office, Donnelly said.

Then came 2005, and a series of troubles. Zimmerman's business failed, he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.

That July, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an under-age friend of Zimmerman's at a bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.

In August, Zimmerman's fiancee at the time, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman reciprocated with his own order on the same grounds, and both orders were granted. The relationship ended.

In 2007 he married Shellie Dean, a licensed cosmetologist, and in 2009 the couple rented a townhouse in the Retreat at Twin Lakes. Zimmerman had bounced from job to job for a couple of years, working at a car dealership and a mortgage company. At times, according to testimony from Shellie at a bond hearing for Zimmerman last week, the couple filed for unemployment benefits.

Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College in 2009, and in December 2011 he was permitted to participate in a school graduation ceremony, despite being a course credit shy of his associate's degree in criminal justice. Zimmerman was completing that course credit when the shooting occurred.

On March 22, nearly a month after the shooting and with the controversy by then swirling nationwide, the school issued a press release saying it was taking the "unusual, but necessary" step of withdrawing Zimmerman's enrollment, citing "the safety of our students on campus as well as for Mr. Zimmerman."

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.

At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.

In several of the incidents, witnesses identified the suspects to police as young black men. Twin Lakes is about 50 percent white, with an African-American and Hispanic population of about 20 percent each, roughly similar to the surrounding city of Sanford, according to U.S. Census data.

One morning in July 2011, a black teenager walked up to Zimmerman's front porch and stole a bicycle, neighbors told Reuters. A police report was taken, though the bicycle was not recovered.

But it was the August incursion into the home of Olivia Bertalan that really troubled the neighborhood, particularly Zimmerman. Shellie was home most days, taking online courses towards certification as a registered nurse.

On August 3, Bertalan was at home with her infant son while her husband, Michael, was at work. She watched from a downstairs window, she said, as two black men repeatedly rang her doorbell and then entered through a sliding door at the back of the house. She ran upstairs, locked herself inside the boy's bedroom, and called a police dispatcher, whispering frantically.

"I said, 'What am I supposed to do? I hear them coming up the stairs!'" she told Reuters. Bertalan tried to coo her crying child into silence and armed herself with a pair of rusty scissors.

Police arrived just as the burglars - who had been trying to disconnect the couple's television - fled out a back door. Shellie Zimmerman saw a black male teen running through her backyard and reported it to police.

After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."

In September, a group of neighbors including Zimmerman approached the homeowners association with their concerns, she said. Zimmerman was asked to head up a new neighborhood watch. He agreed.

"PLEASE CONTACT OUR CAPTAIN"

Police had advised Bertalan to get a dog. She and her husband decided to move out instead, and left two days before the shooting. Zimmerman took the advice.

"He'd already had a mutt that he walked around the neighborhood every night - man, he loved that dog - but after that home invasion he also got a Rottweiler," said Jorge Rodriguez, a friend and neighbor of the Zimmermans.

Around the same time, Zimmerman also gave Rodriguez and his wife, Audria, his contact information, so they could reach him day or night. Rodriguez showed the index card to Reuters. In neat cursive was a list of George and Shellie's home number and cell phones, as well as their emails.

Less than two weeks later, another Twin Lakes home was burglarized, police reports show. Two weeks after that, a home under construction was vandalized.

The Retreat at Twin Lakes e-newsletter for February 2012 noted: "The Sanford PD has announced an increased patrol within our neighborhood ... during peak crime hours.

"If you've been a victim of a crime in the community, after calling police, please contact our captain, George Zimmerman."

EMMANUEL BURGESS - SETTING THE STAGE

On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman placed a call to Sanford police after spotting a young black man he recognized peering into the windows of a neighbor's empty home, according to several friends and neighbors.

"I don't know what he's doing. I don't want to approach him, personally," Zimmerman said in the call, which was recorded. The dispatcher advised him that a patrol car was on the way. By the time police arrived, according to the dispatch report, the suspect had fled.

On February 6, the home of another Twin Lakes resident, Tatiana Demeacis, was burglarized. Two roofers working directly across the street said they saw two African-American men lingering in the yard at the time of the break-in. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. One of the roofers called police the next day after spotting one of the suspects among a group of male teenagers, three black and one white, on bicycles.

Police found Demeacis's laptop in the backpack of 18-year-old Emmanuel Burgess, police reports show, and charged him with dealing in stolen property. Burgess was the same man Zimmerman had spotted on February 2.

Burgess had committed a series of burglaries on the other side of town in 2008 and 2009, pleaded guilty to several, and spent all of 2010 incarcerated in a juvenile facility, his attorney said. He is now in jail on parole violations.

Three days after Burgess was arrested, Zimmerman's grandmother was hospitalized for an infection, and the following week his father was also admitted for a heart condition. Zimmerman spent a number of those nights on a hospital room couch.

Ten days after his father was hospitalized, Zimmerman noticed another young man in the
neighborhood, acting in a way he found familiar, so he made another call to police.

"We've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy," Zimmerman said, as Trayvon Martin returned home from the store.

The last time Zimmerman had called police, to report Burgess, he followed protocol and waited for police to arrive. They were too late, and Burgess got away.

This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.

"These assholes," he muttered in an aside, "they always get away."

After the phone call ended, several minutes passed when the movements of Zimmerman and Martin remain a mystery.

Moments later, Martin lay dead with a bullet in his chest.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

[TheSkeptic]

Most I've seen on Zimmerman's background:




http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

Great article.

I, for one, don't think Zimmerman was a psychopath in the clinical sense of the term. I'm definitely of the opinion that he made a terrible mistake.

[rjv]

I knew this zimmerman cat was a self hating loser. He wants to be white so bad its disgusting. look at this clown's myspace profile.

George Zimmerman’s past has once again caught up with him. A MySpace page from 2005 was uncovered with Zimmerman going under the profile name “Joe G” and the username “Only To Be King."

STORY: Zimmerman's Lawyer Addresses Trayvon Martin's Family

In his blog section Zimmerman writes:

Good news???? Bout Damn time!!!!!!!

2 felonies dropped to 1 misdemeanor!!!!!!!!!!! The man knows he was wrong but still got this hump, Thanks to everyone friends and fam, G baby you know your my rock!

Out come of first case......

Im still free! The ex hoe tried her hardest, but the judge saw through it! Big Mike, reppin the Dverse security makin me look a million bucks, broke her down! Thanks to everyone for checkin up on me! Stay tuned for the A.T.F. charges......

The first comment refers to Zimmerman’s altercation when he was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an underage friend of Zimmerman's at a bar.

Zimmerman would later avoid conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.

The second comment refers to a 2005 incident when he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.

In Zimmerman’s About Me section he writes:

"I know alot of yall hatin cause im out and aint ever goin back, i used to look at people like me the same way. Can you really hate on someone for improving thier life? I love the fact that I can still go back home and crash on my boys couch as if i had never left, I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he's at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched. My cousins the cruzado's damn i love yall, shirley and frank DONT PLAY! I gotta be honest I miss that.

I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book. Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!"

This MySpace discovery provides a little bit more insight to the mind state of George Zimmerman, you can view the page by clicking here.




Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-sanford-florida-myspace-page-revealed-details#ixzz1tdbKEiZN

sounds like at least half of the people on ST

[Wild Cobra]

Great article.

I, for one, don't think Zimmerman was a psychopath in the clinical sense of the term. I'm definitely of the opinion that he made a terrible mistake.
I think most reasonable people agree with that.

[Wild Cobra]

sounds like at least half of the people on ST

No kidding.

Trill....

What's yours look like?

[rjv]

never really one who ever cared for stream of consciousness narrative which seems to be the constant on ST

[Trill Clinton]

sounds like at least half of the people on ST


yup...

[Trill Clinton]

No kidding.

Trill....

What's yours look like?

huh?

[Trill Clinton]

If you're asking what my Myspace profile looks like, I don't have one. When I did I was a kid and it wasnt full of racism and bigotry. I also never bragged about beating a domestic violence and assault charge like this dummy did.

[clambake]

If you're asking what my Myspace profile looks like, I don't have one. When I did I was a kid and it wasnt full of racism and bigotry. I also never bragged about beating a domestic violence and assault charge like this dummy did.

this grown man sounds like the picture they painted of the kid.

[DisAsTerBot]

this grown man sounds like the picture they painted of the kid.

you mean when everyone was like
lol twitter
lol grill
lol afraid of blacks

[clambake]

you mean when everyone was like
lol twitter
lol grill
lol afraid of blacks

more like lol insurance fraud investigator.

[Spurminator]

"Oh yes oh yes oh yes they both oh yes they both oh yes they both reached for the gun the gun the gun oh yes they both reached for the gun for the gun..."

[CosmicCowboy]

Zimmerman is SO gonna be found not guilty.

[clambake]

Zimmerman is SO gonna be found not guilty.

the guy that already lied is innocent?

[CosmicCowboy]

the guy that already lied is innocent?

Duh

There is a big difference between innocent and being found innocent of the murder charge.

[clambake]

it wouldn't surprise me to see jury in florida let him walk.

[CosmicCowboy]

I will be surprised if they don't.

[Fabbs]

it wouldn't surprise me to see jury in florida let him walk.
Florida and SoCal seem to be two of the best places to off people and walk. Including children. Maybe that's just for huge media cases.

[clambake]

I will be surprised if they don't.

surprised or outraged? :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

Just surprised. I think the guys probably a jerk but I don't think they have enough evidence to convict him of anything under Florida law.

[clambake]

you don't think its funny that an "insurance fraud investigator" (lol) commits fraud in court?

[clambake]

i just think the guy snapped. knew exactly what he was doing.

hell, i just saw that fucking verizon commercial with the mother and daughter crying.

every time i see it, i want to go on a killing spree.

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't find anything about this case funny. Tragic? Yeah. Funny? No.

I'm just not as obsessed about the defense fund as you are.

[clambake]

I'm just not as obsessed about the defense fund as you are.

i'm not obsessed with the fund at all.

[Geosurface]

People behave in strange ways when they're put in strange situations. Strange and hectic situations. You have Trayvon's mom copyrighting his name... you have GZ possibly omitting info about money that may have been relevant at the bond hearing...

And then you have online posts from both shooter and shootee which paint them in a negative light.

But instead of getting lost in the weeds of all of that, let's just look at the most bare, hard facts we know of that evening itself:

- GZ involved police
- GZ had bloody wounds to the back of his head (fits his story)
- GZ had broken nose (fits his story)
- GZ was seen underneath TM being beaten and screaming for help by witness "John" (fits his story)
- TM had powder burns on his hoodie indicate a very close range shot (fits GZ's story)

Some people still debate who was screaming. But here's a little quote I thought was quite apt that I saw somewhere else:


"Suddenly you hear screaming for help in the room next door, Frantically you try to enter the room but the door is locked! After several attempts you are able to bust down the door and enter the room.The men are separated. One has a bloody nose, a split lip and is bleeding from the back of the head. The other has no marks of a fight. For $100, who was the one screaming for help?"

[cantthinkofanything]

People behave in strange ways when they're put in strange situations. Strange and hectic situations. You have Trayvon's mom copyrighting his name... you have GZ possibly omitting info about money that may have been relevant at the bond hearing...

And then you have online posts from both shooter and shootee which paint them in a negative light.

But instead of getting lost in the weeds of all of that, let's just look at the most bare, hard facts we know of that evening itself:

- GZ involved police
- GZ had bloody wounds to the back of his head (fits his story)
- GZ had broken nose (fits his story)
- GZ was seen underneath TM being beaten and screaming for help by witness "John" (fits his story)
- TM had powder burns on his hoodie indicate a very close range shot (fits GZ's story)

Some people still debate who was screaming. But here's a little quote I thought was quite apt that I saw somewhere else:


"Suddenly you hear screaming for help in the room next door, Frantically you try to enter the room but the door is locked! After several attempts you are able to bust down the door and enter the room.The men are separated. One has a bloody nose, a split lip and is bleeding from the back of the head. The other has no marks of a fight. For $100, who was the one screaming for help?

That reminds me of this quote I found:

you open the door to a room and there are two people behind walls which prohibit you from seeing them. But a voice tells you that behind one wall is a black kid with grillz and behind the other is a man with the last name "Zimmerman". For $100, who's guilty of doing something that made them need shootin'?

[Trill Clinton]

Trayvon was the one screaming for help obviously. Why would GZ, a woman beater and cop beater be crying for help?

Trayvon was just trying to get home and give his little brother some skittles before robocop came and intimidated him, causing Trayvon to fight for his life. I can't imagine the fear that young man experienced when GZ stalked him and flashed his gun at him. smh.

[Wild Cobra]

Trayvon was the one screaming for help obviously. Why would GZ, a woman beater and cop beater be crying for help?

Trayvon was just trying to get home and give his little brother some skittles before robocop came and intimidated him, causing Trayvon to fight for his life. I can't imagine the fear that young man experienced when GZ stalked him and flashed his gun at him. smh.

Looks like it's all in your imagination to me.

[clambake]

i like how this guy has focused on gz story. which is good cuz two people know the story, but only one can tell it.

and we already know that gz is a liar.

[cantthinkofanything]

Some have said it doesn't make sense that it was Trayvon crying out because he really wasn't hurt or anything.

But new speculation is that after he saw the damage he was doing to Zimmerman's head, he was actually calling out for someone to help them.

[Wild Cobra]

Some have said it doesn't make sense that it was Trayvon crying out because he really wasn't hurt or anything.

But new speculation is that after he saw the damage he was doing to Zimmerman's head, he was actually calling out for someone to help them.
I'll pass on that hypothesis.

[cantthinkofanything]

I'll pass on that hypothesis.

because he's black?

[clambake]

because he's black?


he could have been a much better thug if not for affirmative action

[Wild Cobra]

because he's black?
Why do you always make things about race?

No. I just think it's ridiculous.

Would you do that? Hit someone several times, then scream for help, for them?

[cantthinkofanything]

Why do you always make things about race?

No. I just think it's ridiculous.

Would you do that? Hit someone several times, then scream for help, for them?

Maybe. If I was just trying to protect myself but ended up going overboard.

[TheSkeptic]

Why do you always make things about race?

No. I just think it's ridiculous.

Would you do that? Hit someone several times, then scream for help, for them?

Sure if you weren't intending to hurt that person seriously. But since we already know that Zimmerman wasn't receiving that savage of a beating I highly doubt it. That said, I'm happy that he's getting a trial and even if the jury decides to let him walk I'm holding out hope for a hefty lawsuit.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Zimmerman is SO gonna be found not guilty.

Given the case the state has given so far I would agree with you. The case is going to be tried in a FL courtroom however. we know one tenant of the state's case afaik.

[Trill Clinton]

Sure if you weren't intending to hurt that person seriously. But since we already know that Zimmerman wasn't receiving that savage of a beating I highly doubt it. That said, I'm happy that he's getting a trial and even if the jury decides to let him walk I'm holding out hope for a hefty lawsuit.


I can live with this. I would also like for him to be exiled. He's gotten away with beating up an ex wife, an ATF agent and killing an unarmed kid. No telling what GZ has up his sleeves next.

[cantthinkofanything]

I can live with this. I would also like for him to be exiled. He's gotten away with beating up an ex wife, an ATF agent and killing an unarmed kid. No telling what GZ has up his sleeves next.

IDK. I don't have a problem with a big ass lawsuit. But as for Zimmerman, maybe this is the best thing that could have happened to him. If he hadn't done this, it's possibly that his anger would keep escalating until the next time he was in a confrontation. As unfortunate as this incident is, it may actually be saving the life of an innocent person later.

[clambake]

big lawsuit=zero cash

[Trill Clinton]

IDK. I don't have a problem with a big ass lawsuit. But as for Zimmerman, maybe this is the best thing that could have happened to him. If he hadn't done this, it's possibly that his anger would keep escalating until the next time he was in a confrontation. As unfortunate as this incident is, it may actually be saving the life of an innocent person later.


I'm sure GZ is sorry and remorseful, most criminals are when they get caught. They try to find God and become productive citizens then fall right back into the same trap.

I don't know how much of an impact the killing of an unarmed child can have on GZ but I hope this is the end of his reign of terror, but my gut feeling is this guy isn't sincere with his actions.

I can only speak for myself but if I was in his position I would have made every attempt possible to contact the Martin family to express my condolensces. I wouldn't have hid, I wouldn't have made a website to get money from strangers. I would have released whatever photos I had earlier, etc. As a man I don't think I could live with myself knowing I killed an unarmed kid. I would have faced the public scrutingy LIKE A MAN.

[cantthinkofanything]

I'm sure GZ is sorry and remorseful, most criminals are when they get caught. They try to find God and become productive citizens then fall right back into the same trap.

I don't know how much of an impact the killing of an unarmed child can have on GZ but I hope this is the end of his reign of terror, but my gut feeling is this guy isn't sincere with his actions.

I can only speak for myself but if I was in his position I would have made every attempt possible to contact the Martin family to express my condolensces. I wouldn't have hid, I wouldn't have made a website to get money from strangers. I would have released whatever photos I had earlier, etc. As a man I don't think I could live with myself knowing I killed an unarmed kid. I would have faced the public scrutingy LIKE A MAN.

But also, don't forget the life path Travon chose. We won't know for sure, but it's also likely that he might have killed or seriously hurt someone in the future and that by Zimmerman shooting him, he saved those lives as well.

[Trill Clinton]

But also, don't forget the life path Travon chose. We won't know for sure, but it's also likely that he might have killed or seriously hurt someone in the future and that by Zimmerman shooting him, he saved those lives as well.

What path are you talking about? Trayvon didn't have a criminal record. GZ however terrorized his ex wife and a ATF agent.:wakeup

Trayvon could have been president, could have found a cure to cancer, could have went on to play for the Spurs, who knows. I can say by GZ murdering Trayvon in cold blood took millions of lives with him as well.

[cantthinkofanything]

What path are you talking about? Trayvon didn't have a criminal record. GZ however terrorized his ex wife and a ATF agent.:wakeup

Trayvon could have been president, could have found a cure to cancer, could have went on to play for the Spurs, who knows. I can say by GZ murdering Trayvon in cold blood took millions of lives with him as well.

Just because he didn't have a criminal record doesn't mean that he wasn't doing very bad things. There's probably lots of gangsters that don't have a criminal record until they get caught for killing someone. I would hate to think that GZ let a potential killer and/or rapist walk away. Can you imagine how mad you'd be at Zimmerman if Travon killed someone you cared about?

[clambake]

well, he was black. most likely would have raped and killed, right?

[cantthinkofanything]

well, he was black. most likely would have raped and killed, right?

Who knows. But his race doesn't have anything to do with it. It was the life path he chose.

[Trill Clinton]

Just because he didn't have a criminal record doesn't mean that he wasn't doing very bad things. There's probably lots of gangsters that don't have a criminal record until they get caught for killing someone. I would hate to think that GZ let a potential killer and/or rapist walk away. Can you imagine how mad you'd be at Zimmerman if Travon killed someone you cared about?

proof of the very bad things Trayvon was doing?

bottom line is, Trayvon was living a normal teenage life before the ruthless GZ who has criminal history of terrorizing innocent women and law enforcement decided to earn his stripes.

GZ lived a good life as a Judge's son and look how his life turned out. You can't say what Trayvon would have went on to do because we don't and will never know because a privilaged child who grew into a killer took his life that night.

[clambake]

Who knows. But his race doesn't have anything to do with it. It was the life path he chose.

what did he do, skip some classes? everyone knows that leads to the next scarface.

[cantthinkofanything]

proof of the very bad things Trayvon was doing?

bottom line is, Trayvon was living a normal teenage life before the ruthless GZ who has criminal history of terrorizing innocent women and law enforcement decided to earn his stripes.

GZ lived a good life as a Judge's son and look how his life turned out. You can't say what Trayvon would have went on to do because we don't and will never know because a privilaged child who grew into a killer took his life that night.

I hear where you're coming from but it's easy to say all of that now that Travon is gone. Would you be saying the same thing if Travon had lived and then went and killed a 5 year old in a drive by? Or sold drugs to someone who overdosed? Close you eyes. What if a stray bullet from Travon's gun ripped it's way through the window and ended up killing a loved one?

[clambake]

he probably knocked up a bunch of white girls.

[Trill Clinton]

I hear where you're coming from but it's easy to say all of that now that Travon is gone. Would you be saying the same thing if Travon had lived and then went and killed a 5 year old in a drive by? Or sold drugs to someone who overdosed? Close you eyes. What if a stray bullet from Travon's gun ripped it's way through the window and ended up killing a loved one?

:lmao GET THEEE FUCK OUTTA HERE!!!

[TheSkeptic]

I hear where you're coming from but it's easy to say all of that now that Travon is gone. Would you be saying the same thing if Travon had lived and then went and killed a 5 year old in a drive by? Or sold drugs to someone who overdosed? Close you eyes. What if a stray bullet from Travon's gun ripped it's way through the window and ended up killing a loved one?

Wow. Just wow.

There's absolutely no evidence that Trayvon was a drug dealer or a gang member. And you shouldn't be assuming the worst of a kid that's passed away without proof.

He got suspended from school, he may have smoked weed, said some stupid things on twitter, and he could have been involved with a bit of petty theft. Those are things that plenty of teenagers do and it's worth pointing out that most of them still go on to be productive adults. They're kids and if we're going to live in a society that insists on extended adolescence, then we need to let teenagers make mistakes and figure life out.

Although Trayvon clearly wasn't a saint, we also know that he loved his family and that he had plans for college. If anything, this combination of good and bad more or less demonstrates that he was a regular 17 year old who was still growing as a person.

I, and I'm sure plenty of other people, would be extremely reluctant to live in a place where not being perfect -and therefore having the potential to hurt other people in the future- is viewed as a fine reason to shoot me dead while I'm walking down the street and then to not even bother investigating the details of my death afterwards.

Even if Trayvon had gone on to be a troublemaker, there's a legal system in place that would have dealt with his crimes after they happened. You don't get to pre-emptively shoot someone over what they *might* do in the future. That's not civilized behaviour and it sets a dangerous precedent.

[cantthinkofanything]

Wow. Just wow.

There's absolutely no evidence that Trayvon was a drug dealer or a gang member. And you shouldn't be assuming the worst of a kid that's passed away without proof.

He got suspended from school, he may have smoked weed, said some stupid things on twitter, and he could have been involved with a bit of petty theft. Those are things that plenty of teenagers do and it's worth pointing out that most of them still go on to be productive adults. They're kids and if we're going to live in a society that insists on extended adolescence, then we need to let teenagers make mistakes and figure life out.

Although Trayvon clearly wasn't a saint, we also know that he loved his family and that he had plans for college. If anything, this combination of good and bad more or less demonstrates that he was a regular 17 year old who was still growing as a person.

I, and I'm sure plenty of other people, would be extremely reluctant to live in a place where not being perfect -and therefore having the potential to hurt other people in the future- is viewed as a fine reason to shoot me dead while I'm walking down the street and then to not even bother investigating the details of my death afterwards.

Even if Trayvon had gone on to be a troublemaker, there's a legal system in place that would have dealt with his crimes after they happened. You don't get to pre-emptively shoot someone over what they *might* do in the future. That's not civilized behaviour and it sets a dangerous precedent.

I think you made my point for me. We have no idea of what atrocities Travon might have gone on to star in. My point was that Zimmerman, while saving his own life, might have saved countless others. Would you be taking this same stance when Travon shot someone close to you? And looking at the big picture, should it matter that the person he was going to shoot isn't related to you?

Again, I'm not saying that Zimmerman was right. In fact, I was the one that presented the evidence that it was Travon's voice crying out for help after he bashed in Zimmerman's head more than he intended to.

But I can't look past the fact that Zimmerman ironically saved more lives by taking a life on that fateful night. Also, another point I made earlier is that if Zimmerman has learned from this lesson, it's probably preventing him from taking the life of someone innocent later.

[clambake]

the kid might have killed a bunch of black people just before being stalked to death.

those murders would never have been reported.

[Geosurface]

It should be abundantly clear cantthinkofanything is joking.

oh btw there is evidence Trayvon was a drug using, drug dealing, jewelry stealing mini-thug. I don't really particularly give a shit though... the only bad life choice of his I take issue with as relates to this case, was his choice to assault a stranger for doing no more than keeping an eye on him, when he was a guest in that stranger's gated community.

He was a hothead and over-reacted to having an eye kept on him. He had more than enough time, and a headstart on foot over Zimmerman to make it back "home" if that was truly his desire. He had a phone to call 911 if he truly felt GZ was a threat. I do not think he did, I think he knew GZ was suspicious of him, and decided to teach this punk ass bitch not to disrespect me or some such nonsense.

[clambake]

It should be abundantly clear cantthinkofanything is joking.

oh btw there is evidence Trayvon was a drug using, drug dealing, jewelry stealing mini-thug. I don't really particularly give a shit though... the only bad life choice of his I take issue with as relates to this case, was his choice to assault a stranger for doing no more than keeping an eye on him, when he was a guest in that stranger's gated community.

He was a hothead and over-reacted to having an eye kept on him. He had more than enough time, and a headstart on foot over Zimmerman to make it back "home" if that was truly his desire. He had a phone to call 911 if he truly felt GZ was a threat. I do not think he did, I think he knew GZ was suspicious of him, and decided to teach this punk ass bitch not to disrespect me or some such nonsense.

:lol george is a confirmed liar.

[Trill Clinton]

I think you made my point for me. We have no idea of what atrocities Travon might have gone on to star in. My point was that Zimmerman, while saving his own life, might have saved countless others. Would you be taking this same stance when Travon shot someone close to you? And looking at the big picture, should it matter that the person he was going to shoot isn't related to you?

Again, I'm not saying that Zimmerman was right. In fact, I was the one that presented the evidence that it was Travon's voice crying out for help after he bashed in Zimmerman's head more than he intended to.

But I can't look past the fact that Zimmerman ironically saved more lives by taking a life on that fateful night. Also, another point I made earlier is that if Zimmerman has learned from this lesson, it's probably preventing him from taking the life of someone innocent later.


only point you're making is painting Trayvon as the "what if villian" while praising GZ for being the hero who saived some hypothetical lives.

smh@ you using a dead kids life to troll:nope

[clambake]

geo is suggesting that the kid run home and lead the killer to his family.

[cantthinkofanything]

only point you're making is painting Trayvon as the "what if villian" while praising GZ for being the hero who saived some hypothetical lives.

smh@ you using a dead kids life to troll:nope

smh @ you making me Google to see if he had a Kindle Fire and a hot teacher who gave it to him.

[Trill Clinton]

It should be abundantly clear cantthinkofanything is joking.

oh btw there is evidence Trayvon was a drug using, drug dealing, jewelry stealing mini-thug. I don't really particularly give a shit though... the only bad life choice of his I take issue with as relates to this case, was his choice to assault a stranger for doing no more than keeping an eye on him, when he was a guest in that stranger's gated community.

He was a hothead and over-reacted to having an eye kept on him. He had more than enough time, and a headstart on foot over Zimmerman to make it back "home" if that was truly his desire. He had a phone to call 911 if he truly felt GZ was a threat. I do not think he did, I think he knew GZ was suspicious of him, and decided to teach this punk ass bitch not to disrespect me or some such nonsense.

He wouldn't had to assault GZ if GZ didn't follow and flash his weapon at Trayzon. Like I said before, anybody in fear of their life FIGHTS TO SURVIVE!!!

I'll ask you this. A stranger follows you, corners you and you see he has a weapon, do you run or fight to survive?:wakeup


:lmao:rollin:lmao@ Trayvon being the hot head when GZ beats up on women and police officers.

[Fabbs]

How about the watermelon patches that will now live and not be devoured?
Along with numerous chickens that will not be fried and consumed.

[clambake]

everybody knows that george had the gun pointed at him the entire time.

[Trill Clinton]

everybody knows that george had the gun pointed at him the entire time.


Yup, but Trayvon should have turned his back and ran.

[Trill Clinton]

*waits for geosurface to respond with another paragraph about how zimmerman was justified in murdering an innocent child*

[Fabbs]

everybody knows that george had the gun pointed at him the entire time.
What day(s) have you and Trill been depo'd to appear as witnesses?

[Geosurface]

He wouldn't had to assault GZ if GZ didn't follow and flash his weapon at Trayzon. Like I said before, anybody in fear of their life FIGHTS TO SURVIVE!!!

Please cite your source for GZ "flashing" his weapon at TM? Here I'll do you a favor and cite it for you: your imagination

You talk about GZ cornering him... but GZ was just waiting around for police up north of the path that lead to Brandy Green's, and there was physically no way to corner TM... the geography of the area doesn't really allow it. It makes a nice, emotional visual though I'll grant you that.

GZ claims TM approached him, which makes sense given that on the 911 call he was saying he did not know where TM was anymore, that he "ran" that he had gotten away.

But sure, you could doubt GZ's account... but, do you have any real good reason to doubt him? Other than that Trayvon is black so you automatically default to siding with him? GZ's account matches the evidence in important ways:

-injuries
-eyewitness testimony
-it works logically

Can you explain to me a scenario that has Trayvon screaming for a full minute before GZ shoots him in cold blood, and still accounts for what JOhn saw and the injuries on GZ?

[clambake]

yep, had the gun pointed at him the entire time. its the only logical conclusion, since we know that george is a confirmed liar.

[Trill Clinton]

What day(s) have you and Trill been depo'd to appear as witnesses?

the same day as #teamzimmerman's supporters who believe the killers story enough to donate to his defense fund.

unfortunately I wasn't there that night with the young man had to fight for his life and got murdered. sad that everyone is taking GZ's side of the story while ignoring his history of violence. I wish I was so I could have taken that bullett since he wanted to take a person, a black person's life so bad. I'm a grown man, lil Trayvon had his whole life ahead of him.

People expect a 17 year old kid to act like an adult and make decisions that they would have made. Trayvon just wanted to go home but instead he was followed, threatened then shot to death. I pray my son doesn't have to go through anything like this.

I guess thats just the breaks when a black life is lost. noone cares.

Yes some people don't want to pick sides because they have convinced themselves Trayvon was a young thug asking for trouble and GZ was just a concerned citizen protecting his neighborhood, excuse me, his parents neighborhood.

Yes I believe GZ murdered him in cold blood.

Yes I believe Trayvon saw a gun and decided to fight for his life.

The GZ supporters can ignore his violent and racist past all they want to justify this killing, its cool.

[Geosurface]

yep, had the gun pointed at him the entire time. its the only logical conclusion, since we know that george is a confirmed liar.

Here's a good video which addresses your concerns about the paypal account:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGkyfX9Z4HM

[clambake]

Here's a good video which addresses your concerns about the paypal account:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGkyfX9Z4HM

where is the utoob of george pissing away 54K?

[Trill Clinton]

Please cite your source for GZ "flashing" his weapon at TM? Here I'll do you a favor and cite it for you: your imagination

You talk about GZ cornering him... but GZ was just waiting around for police up north of the path that lead to Brandy Green's, and there was physically no way to corner TM... the geography of the area doesn't really allow it. It makes a nice, emotional visual though I'll grant you that.

GZ claims TM approached him, which makes sense given that on the 911 call he was saying he did not know where TM was anymore, that he "ran" that he had gotten away.

But sure, you could doubt GZ's account... but, do you have any real good reason to doubt him? Other than that Trayvon is black so you automatically default to siding with him? GZ's account matches the evidence in important ways:

-injuries
-eyewitness testimony
-it works logically

Can you explain to me a scenario that has Trayvon screaming for a full minute before GZ shoots him in cold blood, and still accounts for what JOhn saw and the injuries on GZ?


Cite your source he was a drug dealer and I'll cite all my sources:wakeup

There are different accounts of what happened from several eye witnesses:wakeup

You go ahead and justify a career criminal killing an innocent child and I'll defend the child. k?

[clambake]

the hoa guy said george would be the captain of the community watch, so he's already pissed.

i bet he left that meeting thinking " i don't want to be a captain, i want to be a general! looks like i'm gonna have to earn my stars the hard way".