Trayvon Martin - black kid armed with skittles killed in "self-defense"

[DMX7]

Ih4m05lVfvU&hd=1

[Arlington Native]

rY0WxgSXdEE&ob=av3e

[jack sommerset]

Demons killed that boy. This is a sad tale that has been told many, many times. You could hear the demon stalk that boy, disregarding what the 911 operator or police representive told George to do. He was hell bent on taking a life that night. Pure evil. I can understand why the police can't do a whole lot in this case and my feelings say the demon is a long gone. God bless.

[DMX7]

Demons killed that boy. This is a sad tale that has been told many, many times. You could hear the demon stalk that boy, disregarding what the 911 operator or police representive told George to do. He was hell bent on taking a life that night. Pure evil. I can understand why the police can't do a whole lot in this case and my feelings say the demon is a long gone. God bless.

Ok.

[ChumpDumper]

Demons killed that boy. This is a sad tale that has been told many, many times. You could hear the demon stalk that boy, disregarding what the 911 operator or police representive told George to do. He was hell bent on taking a life that night. Pure evil. I can understand why the police can't do a whole lot in this case and my feelings say the demon is a long gone. God bless.That's the demon in you talking.

[redzero]

Strong lisp.

[DMC]

Taste the rainbow.

[Winehole23]

how is it self defense when you get out of your car with your gun to pursue and confront someone?

[Wild Cobra]

What ever the truth is, the reporter fails to mention the guy who killed him was bleeding from both his nose and the back of his head, and claimed self defense.

[redzero]

What ever the truth is, the reporter fails to mention the guy who killed him was bleeding from both his nose and the back of his head, and claimed self defense.

Yeah, he was just defending himself... after starting the conflict in the first place.

[boutons_deux]

FL's "Stand Your Ground" defense when murdering:

The Role Of Gun Laws In The Trayvon Martin Shooting

Florida courts have found that under that statute, "defendant's only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable" while "the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense." This has led to a legal situation wherein it is possible for someone to kill a member of a rival gang in a shootout, claim they were acting in self-defense, and avoid prosecution.

Florida's self-defense law, known as Stand Your Ground, grants immunity to people who act to protect themselves if they have a reasonable fear they will be killed or seriously injured.

"Stand Your Ground is a law that has really created a Wild West type environment in Florida," said Brian Tannebaum, a criminal defense lawyer in Florida. "It allows people to kill people outside of their homes, if they are in reasonable fear for their lives. It's a very low standard."

The shooting also presents a tragic snapshot of so-called "Stand Your Ground" laws, what critics call "license-to-murder."

Such laws eliminate the English Law concept of a "duty to retreat" from dangerous situations outside the home. Without that, an armed citizen has no obligation to stand down in the face of a threat.

The problem, as the Martin case highlights, is that making the duty to retreat "totally irrelevant," as Stetson University law professor Robert Batey has said, means the law gives prosecutors fewer factors to consider when determining self-defense, including, potentially, the extent to which a person claiming self-defense may have aggravated the situation.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/864640/the_role_of_gun_laws_in_the_trayvon_martin_shootin g/#paragraph4

[Agloco]

What ever the truth is, the reporter fails to mention the guy who killed him was bleeding from both his nose and the back of his head, and claimed self defense.


how is it self defense when you get out of your car with your gun to pursue and confront someone?

[Wild Cobra]

Yeah, he was just defending himself... after starting the conflict in the first place.
I agree, from the account, it sounds that way. How accurate is the account?

Keep in mind. The reported gave an obvious biased report since she didn't mention his injuries. What else was left out?

[DMX7]

how is it self defense when you get out of your car with your gun to pursue and confront someone?

and after he was told not to. The answer to WC, of course, is that he's black.

[DMX7]

I agree, from the account, it sounds that way. How accurate is the account?

Keep in mind. The reported gave an obvious biased report since she didn't mention his injuries. What else was left out?

Actually, if you watched the report, then you would have noticed that she did mention it.

[DarrinS]

I noticed this was a national story. White on black crime, while statistically rare, always is national news. Still, sad story and the guy deserves the harshest punishment the law will allow.

[Wild Cobra]

You quote two lines... As if that is all there is...

So what? Did you miss the "Neighborhood Watch" part?

If we assume that is correct, then he may have wanted to make sure the kid wasn't causing trouble, or stop him if he tried to cause trouble, theft, etc. How the altercation started between the two is unclear, but Zimmerman claims he was attacked from behind as he walked back to his vehicle. This may have happened, it may be a lie.

Have to keep an open mind on these things.

[Wild Cobra]

Actually, if you watched the report, then you would have noticed that she did mention it.
I did watch it. Did I really miss it?

I'll watch it again.

[Wild Cobra]

OK, she goes as far as saying he had injuries consistent with self defense. That's it. She doesn't point out the back of his head was bleeding, and a bloody nose.

It does look probable he was attacked from behind to me.

[Winehole23]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T2iAJ9W2-7Q

[Winehole23]

The racial elements of the shooting, Martin is black and Zimmerman is not, add another troubling layer to the lack of an arrest. But it is the "stand your ground" law that gives legal immunity to people who come to an argument with a hot temper and a ready gun.

The Florida Legislature passed the law in 2005 at the behest of the National Rifle Association but over the staunch objections of law enforcement. The law allows the use of deadly force when a person is in a place he has a right to be and feels reasonably threatened with serious harm. Opponents dubbed it the "shoot first" law because people have no duty to attempt to retreat from a threat of violence even if they could do so safely. History has borne them out.


Since the law went into effect, reports of justifiable homicides have tripled, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. It has been used to absolve violence resulting from road rage, barroom arguments and even a gang gunfight. In 2008, two gangs in Tallahassee got into a shootout where a 15-year-old boy was killed. The charges were dismissed by a judge citing the "stand your ground" law.
http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/the-trouble-with-floridas-stand-your-ground-law/1220845

[boutons_deux]

Five years after Florida's Stand Your Ground law was enacted, a 2010 review by the St. Petersburg Times found that reports of justifiable homicides had tripled, and a majority of cases were excused by prosecutors or the courts.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/article?a=928000&f=19

16 other states have replaced "castle defense" with "stand your ground" license to kill. American civilization, Shining Beacon on the Hill.

[DarrinS]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1716605.story




The Sanford Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager, did not instigate the encounter but has received death threats and moved out of his home, his father told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

George Zimmerman, 28, has not been arrested, something that has put him and the Sanford Police Department at the center of a firestorm. Critics say Trayvon, who was visiting family from his home in Miami, was a victim of racial profiling.

Zimmerman's father, 64-year-old Robert Zimmerman of Lake Mary, delivered a one-page letter to the Sentinel on Thursday, saying that the depiction of his son in the media has been cruel and misleading.

George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, the statement says.

"He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever ...," the letter says. "The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth."

The letter does not provide details about what happened Feb. 26 on a walkway in the gated community where George Zimmerman lives and where Trayvon was visiting. But it does challenge one basic assumption of the family's lawyers: that Zimmerman's intent when he got out of his sport utility vehicle was to confront Trayvon after calling police to report a suspicious person.

"At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon," the letter said, "everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."

Police have released little information about what happened that night and no details about how Trayvon and Zimmerman came to be face to face.

No one disputes that Zimmerman called police from his SUV, then left it and encountered Trayvon on foot as the teenager returned from a 7-Eleven candy run.

Before an officer arrived, Trayvon and Zimmerman got into a fight, according to police, and witnesses heard one or both calling for help, and Zimmerman shot Trayvon once with a 9 mm handgun.

Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. Police found blood on his face and the back of his head as well as grass on the back of his shirt.

That jibes with what Cheryl Brown's teenage son witnessed while walking his dog that night. Thirteen-year-old Austin stepped out his front door and heard people fighting, he told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

"I heard screaming and crying for help," he said. "I heard, 'Help me.' "

It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground.

The boy said he is not sure who called for help. After a moment, his dog escaped, and he turned to catch it and a few seconds later heard a gunshot, he said.

"When I heard the shot, the screaming stopped," he said.

He then rushed inside and told his sister to call police.

In his letter, Robert Zimmerman wrote that what happened that night was "tragic … and very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family and the entire community have been forever changed."

George Zimmerman has not talked publicly about what happened, his father said, because that's the advice police gave him. Both Zimmerman families have moved out of their homes, at least temporarily, Robert Zimmerman said, because they've received death threats.

Police on Tuesday turned the case over to the State Attorney's Office, saying they did not have evidence to justify George Zimmerman's arrest on a charge of manslaughter.

Prosecutors will now likely spend several weeks studying the case before making a decision on whether to charge Zimmerman.

Sanford police Chief Bill Lee Jr. told the Sentinel on Thursday night that he has invited the U.S. Department of Justice and the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to review the investigation.

"It's an open book," Lee said. "If they want to look at what we did and how we did it and what information we have, they're welcome to it."

The FDLE has received a letter from the State Attorney's Office asking agents to review the case, spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger said.

Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling."

Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.

More than 400 people gathered Wednesday at a Sanford church, where black community leaders and Baltimore evangelist Jamal Bryant again demanded that Zimmerman be arrested.

Some of Trayvon's family members are expected to be a news conference this morning called by Orlando attorney Natalie Jackson, who is representing the family.

Another rally is scheduled for Monday outside the Seminole County Courthouse. And a call has been issued for people to rally March 26 during the Sanford City Council meeting.

Staff writers Susan Jacobson and Jeff Weiner contributed to this report. [email protected] or 407-650-6394.



Statement of Robert Zimmerman, father of Neighborhood Watch volunteer:


“The tragic events of February 26 are very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family, and the entire community have been forever changed.

The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting are false and extremely misleading. Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas.

George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends. He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. One black neighbor recently interviewed said she knew everything in the media was untrue and that she would trust George with her life. Another black neighbor said that George was the only one, black or white, who came and welcomed her to the community, offering any assistance he could provide. Recently, I met two black children George invited to a social event. I asked where they met George. They responded that he was their mentor. They said George visited them routinely, took them places, helped them, and taught them things and that they really loved George. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth.

The events of February 26 reported in the media are also totally inaccurate. Out of respect for the on-going investigation, I will not discuss specifics. However, the media reports of the events are imaginary at best. At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event become public, and I hope that will be soon, everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.

Our entire family is deeply sorry for the loss of Trayvon. We pray for the Martin family daily. We also pray that the community will grieve together and not be divided by more unwarranted hate.

The Zimmerman family will have no further contact with the media prior to the resolution of the investigation. It would be greatly appreciated if the media would respect our privacy.”

[Winehole23]

does minority status confer immunity to racism?

[DarrinS]

does minority status confer immunity to racism?


From watching the news coverage, I automatically assumed is was racism. I'm not so sure now.

[TeyshaBlue]

Tough call...racism or a douchebag with a gun.
Seems like if you're packing, situations can evolve into a self-defense/justifiable homicide scenario whereas without heat, you could just walk away.

[Bill_Brasky]

What a piece of shit. Heard about this and that fucking idiot deserves the death penalty, plain and simple.

FBI and DOJ getting involved because the guy STILL hasn't been arrested.

[boutons_deux]

Would Zimmerman have profiled a white guy as "suspicious"?

would black Trayvon be walking around today if it were he who tracked and shot white Zimmerman?

[TeyshaBlue]

What a piece of shit. Heard about this and that fucking idiot deserves the death penalty, plain and simple.

FBI and DOJ getting involved because the guy STILL hasn't been arrested.

The state law is a major roadblock to prosecution. Doesn't look too good.

[TeyshaBlue]

Would Zimmerman have profiled a white guy as "suspicious"?

would black Trayvon be walking around today if it were he who tracked and shot white Zimmerman?

Rhetorical flourishes?

[Winehole23]

complete, grammatical sentences?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Reminds me of the time at the softball park a couple of years back. Someone had broken into some cars one night and pretty much put everyone on notidce. A week later I was arriving at the park and heard a redneck getting out of his pick-up telling his buddy that he hoped someone would try and break into his truck becasue he had brought his glock with him to the park. During a break from my first game that night I was sitting in the car and noticed a pick-up park acriss from me with a couple of teenagers in the bed of the pick up truck with their bikes. The father got out of the truck and started to jog while the boys removed there bikes down from the truck. They stood around for a few minutes and before I know it the yahoo who owned the pick-up truck was running with a couple of other guys to the parking lot and cornered these teenagers. They surrounded them and started to threaten them and asked them what they were doing there. Of course the yahoo went to his truck and was about to , I presume get his gun, and I stepped out of my car and told these dudes that these boys had just been dropped off and there dad was running on the track. Not pleased the guys returned to the field. The boys on the other hand thanked me and were totally spooked. Thank God I was there or who knows what would have happened.

The recent legislation allowing for people to lawfully defend themselves and include shooting people who are running away is stupid and opens the door for incidents like this.

[jack sommerset]

Reminds me of the time at the softball park a couple of years back. Someone had broken into some cars one night and pretty much put everyone on notidce. A week later I was arriving at the park and heard a redneck getting out of his pick-up telling his buddy that he hoped someone would try and break into his truck becasue he had brought his glock with him to the park. During a break from my first game that night I was sitting in the car and noticed a pick-up park acriss from me with a couple of teenagers in the bed of the pick up truck with their bikes. The father got out of the truck and started to jog while the boys removed there bikes down from the truck. They stood around for a few minutes and before I know it the yahoo who owned the pick-up truck was running with a couple of other guys to the parking lot and cornered these teenagers. They surrounded them and started to threaten them and asked them what they were doing there. Of course the yahoo went to his truck and was about to , I presume get his gun, and I stepped out of my car and told these dudes that these boys had just been dropped off and there dad was running on the track. Not pleased the guys returned to the field. The boys on the other hand thanked me and were totally spooked. Thank God I was there or who knows what would have happened.

The recent legislation allowing for people to lawfully defend themselves and include shooting people who are running away is stupid and opens the door for incidents like this.

Thank god indeed. You are a hero George. You saved those two teenagers lives. Way to go! God bless.

[hitmanyr2k]

"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about," Zimmerman told dispatchers, adding, "These @!$%#s. They always get away."

The dispatcher, hearing heavy breathing on the phone, asked Zimmerman: "Are
you following him?"

"Yeah," Zimmerman said.

"Okay, we don't need you to do that," the dispatcher responded.



Common sense says if the kid realized some big guy was following him through a dark neighborhood the kid wouldn't be acting "normal". If neighborhood Rambo hadn't followed this kid and did what he was told that kid would still be alive today...it's that simple. If the guy doesn't go to jail the family should at least bring a wrongful death claim against him. And if it was that kid screaming "help me" on the 911 call right before the gunshot silenced him I think that's evidence enough to bring this dude to trial.

[Agloco]

Police declined to arrest Zimmerman, citing Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, enacted in 2005 and now in effect in at least 16 other states.

Dubbed "Shoot first (ask questions later)" by opponents, the Florida law allows a potential crime victim who is "in fear of great bodily injury" to use deadly force in public places.



lol Zimmerman fearing great bodily injury from a kid armed with candy and iced tea.

This AFTER the dispatcher explicitly tells him to stop following Trayvon. smh.

[CosmicCowboy]

Thank god indeed. You are a hero George. You saved those two teenagers lives. Way to go! God bless.

He probably knew it wasn't them because he was the one jacking the stereos.

[Agloco]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/20/10775671-trayvon-martin-case-to-go-to-grand-jury-fla-state-attorney-announces


Trayvon Martin case to go to grand jury, Fla. state attorney announces

[Agloco]

"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about," Zimmerman told dispatchers, adding, "These @!$%#s. They always get away."

The dispatcher, hearing heavy breathing on the phone, asked Zimmerman: "Are you following him?"

"Yeah," Zimmerman said.

"Okay, we don't need you to do that," the dispatcher responded.

According to Zimmerman's father however........



"At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon," the letter said, "everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."

Interesting.

[jack sommerset]

He probably knew it wasn't them because he was the one jacking the stereos.

I'm sure he was jacking something in his vehicle but I doubt George would ever steal anything. George did good even though masterbating is frowned upon. God bless.

[hitmanyr2k]

Looks like Zimmerman's dad is going to have some competition from Trayvon's girlfriend who was speaking to him right before his death.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/20/10774247-trayvon-martins-final-phone-call-he-said-this-man-was-watching-him


"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," the female friend of Trayvon Martin, who was shot to death on Feb. 26 in Twin Lakes, Fla., told ABC. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Martin, who is black, was unarmed when a neighborhood watch captain spotted him walking home after buying candy and iced tea from a convenience store. Call logs from Martin's phone confirm he spoke with the 16-year-old friend interviewed by ABC News minutes before his death, the news station reported. She was not identified, and spoke through an attorney.

Although Martin initially told his friend he wasn't going to run, he eventually did, she said, but the stranger managed to corner him.
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

After that, the line went dead, she said. According to ABC News, other than screams on 911 calls as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words Martin said.

[Creepn]

According to Zimmerman's father however........



Interesting.

Father lied because he knows that following someone doesn't really constitutes for self defense.

Racism or not, the guy needs to go to jail.

[baseline bum]

Fuck jail; give him the needle.

[Vici]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU&feature=youtu.be

Not Racially motivated at all... nope. Definitely does not say "Fucking Coons" around 2:20. Nothing to see here.

[Agloco]

What a piece of shit. Heard about this and that fucking idiot deserves the death penalty, plain and simple.

FBI and DOJ getting involved because the guy STILL hasn't been arrested.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/53755166-68/sanford-zimmerman-law-martin.html.csp


Feds to investigate fatal shooting of Florida teen


By MIKE SCHNEIDER

| The Associated Press
First Published 2 hours ago • Updated 1 hour ago

SANFORD, Fla. •The growing national attention — and outcry — over the case of an unarmed black teen in Florida who was fatally shot by a neighborhood watch captain has culminated with the federal government’s announcement that it will launch an investigation.

[hitmanyr2k]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU&feature=youtu.be

Not Racially motivated at all... nope. Definitely does not say "Fucking Coons" around 2:20. Nothing to see here.

Wow...this dude is getting the needle or going to prison for a very long time. Zimmerman's father should just STFU now.

[DeadlyDynasty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU&feature=youtu.be

Not Racially motivated at all... nope. Definitely does not say "Fucking Coons" around 2:20. Nothing to see here.

Definitely a racist thing to say from an outside perspective, but this guy is down in the trenches dealing with hood-rats all the time, and unfortunately most of them are african-american.

Sad story, but these things happen. Tomorrow a security guard won't pull his gun on somebody and that can of Arizona will be a glock. There'll be no national story for him, though.

[hitmanyr2k]

Definitely a racist thing to say from an outside perspective, but this guy is down in the trenches dealing with hood-rats all the time, and unfortunately most of them are african-american.

Sad story, but these things happen. Tomorrow a security guard won't pull his gun on somebody and that can of Arizona will be a glock. There'll be no national story for him, though.

The neighborhood Rambo shouldn't have license to get his gun and play cop just because he sees a black kid walking down the street. Goddamn it would be different if the kid were looking in someone's window or something threatening but this is ridiculous. "Land of the free" :lol A kid can't even walk down the fuckin street these days without being hassled.

[Creepn]

Definitely a racist thing to say from an outside perspective, but this guy is down in the trenches dealing with hood-rats all the time, and unfortunately most of them are african-american.

Sad story, but these things happen. Tomorrow a security guard won't pull his gun on somebody and that can of Arizona will be a glock. There'll be no national story for him, though.

Can somebody give this guy a needle? Not because he might murder somebody, but because stupidity like this should not be passed down.

[DeadlyDynasty]

The neighborhood Rambo shouldn't have license to get his gun and play cop just because he sees a black kid walking down the street. Goddamn it would be different if the kid were looking in someone's window or something threatening but this is ridiculous. "Land of the free" :lol A kid can't even walk down the fuckin street these days without being hassled.

True, but maybe this kid has been known to hang with other nefarious characters...he might even have a record.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Can somebody give this guy a needle? Not because he might murder somebody, but because stupidity like this should not be passed down.

How ironic.

Unlike you, I know where my genes come from.

[Creepn]

How ironic.

Unlike you, I know where my genes come from.

Um...Okaaaay?

[hitmanyr2k]

True, but maybe this kid has been known to hang with other nefarious characters...he might even have a record.

Cmon, obviously Zimmerman didn't know who that kid was or he would have said so during the 911 call. I think Trayvon just fit Zimmerman's "profile" as someone suspicious. I bet if I were wandering through Zimmerman's neighborhood I would fit his "profile" as well.

[monosylab1k]

lol @ all the posters on ST who pretend to be black all flocking to this news story.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Um...Okaaaay?

Figures you'd miss the two instances of irony in your post.


Cmon, obviously Zimmerman didn't know who that kid was or he would have said so during the 911 call. I think Trayvon just fit Zimmerman's "profile" as someone suspicious. I bet if I were wandering through Zimmerman's neighborhood I would fit his "profile" as well.

Maybe, maybe not. The evidence against him is pretty steep, but people are sensationalizing this a little too much. I think it goes both ways, btw. When a little white girl gets kidnapped the media goes nuts. Mix children (although he's 17) and racism and it's media jackpot

[DeadlyDynasty]

lol @ all the posters on ST who pretend to be black all flocking to this news story.

There must be some kind of Bat Signal Creepn gets everytime a black person is wronged...it really is uncanny how he shows up every time.

[monosylab1k]

off topic, why was the kid suspended from school?

[Creepn]

Figures you'd miss the two instances of irony in your post

But there wasn't any irony. If anything all you did was enforce my point.

[Creepn]

There must be some kind of Bat Signal Creepn gets everytime a black person is wronged...it really is uncanny how he shows up every time.

Lol it's called reading.

[monosylab1k]

But there wasn't any irony. If anything all you did was enforce my point.

lol

[monosylab1k]

Lol it's called reading.

lmao

[Winehole23]

True, but maybe this kid has been known to hang with other nefarious characters...he might even have a record.Bad guess. The shooter has a record (now expunged), the victim, none at all.

[DeadlyDynasty]

off topic, why was the kid suspended from school?

Good question. If I had to throw a c-note on it, I'd say fighting...but I'm sure he was innocent in whatever happened.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Bad guess. The shooter has a record (now expunged), the victim, none at all.

I said he might have a record. Thanks, Al.

[boutons_deux]

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run." Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/864957/trayvon_martin_case_goes_to_grand_jury%2C_fbi_as_d evastating_final_phone_call_with_girlfriend_is_rev ealed/#paragraph2

[Creepn]

I said he might have a record. Thanks, Al.

Look at you trying to defend a criminal. Are you that blinded by racism that you don't see yourself doing this?

[TeyshaBlue]

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run." Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/864957/trayvon_martin_case_goes_to_grand_jury%2C_fbi_as_d evastating_final_phone_call_with_girlfriend_is_rev ealed/#paragraph2

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5713995&postcount=41

[DeadlyDynasty]

Look at you trying to defend a criminal. Are you that blinded by racism that you don't see yourself doing this?

Let's make a deal. You stop pretending to be black and I'll stop pretending to be racist.

Deal?

[Creepn]

Bad guess. The shooter has a record (now expunged), the victim, none at all.

That's the thing about racism. It is basically "negative ignorance" about a person with a direct wire to hatred. What you choose to do with that hatred depends on the person. Look at DD for example, he obviously harbors some hate about me even though he knows nothing about me other than the fact of my skin color. His "negative ignorance" about me leads him to believe that I do not know who my father is as he previously posted or that I've abandoned my kid as he stated in another thread.

[Creepn]

Let's make a deal. You stop pretending to be black and I'll stop pretending to be racist.

Deal?

lol Oh you're pretending?

[DeadlyDynasty]

That's the thing about racism. It is basically "negative ignorance" about a person with a direct wire to hatred. What you choose to do with that hatred depends on the person. Look at DD for example, he obviously harbors some hate about me even though he knows nothing about me other than the fact of my skin color. His "negative ignorance" about me leads him to believe that I do not know who my father is as he previously posted or that I've abandoned my kid as he stated in another thread.

tbh your skin color, abandoned children, and bastard childhood are all still in question last I checked.

[DeadlyDynasty]

lol Oh you're pretending?

Just like you, Casper.

[Creepn]

Just like you, Casper.

Alright DD, teach me how to stop pretending to be black.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Alright DD, teach me how to stop pretending to be black.

Sure thing, buddy. For starters, drop the Al Sharpton act in every thread with even a skoach of racism. Once you get beyond that we can move forward to the next step.

[Creepn]

Sure thing, buddy. For starters, drop the Al Sharpton act in every thread with even a skoach of racism. Once you get beyond that we can move forward to the next step.

What about the other people who pretends to be KKK members? Why don't you tell them to stop pretending to be dragon dick suckers and I'm sure that would eliminate my Al Sharpton role. It's only one of me and at least 20 of yall running rampant.

[Goran Dragic]

Who's pretending to be a KKK member?

The opinion that black quarterbacks suck isn't exclusive to the KKK. I know several black people who admit black QBs suck.

[DeadlyDynasty]

What about the other people who pretends to be KKK members? Why don't you tell them to stop pretending to be dragon dick suckers and I'm sure that would eliminate my Al Sharpton role. It's only one of me and at least 20 of yall running rampant.

There's at least 5 of you (counting Kool), and only one legitimate racist on the site (Wild Cobra).

[Creepn]

Who's pretending to be a KKK member?

The opinion that black quarterbacks suck isn't exclusive to the KKK. I know several black people who admit black QBs suck.

So me responding that I disagree with this means that I'm pretending to be black and playing Al Sharpton? I mean, I know plenty of white people who would disagree with that notion as well.

[Wild Cobra]

Just listened to some released 911 calls. Pretty damning for Zimmerman, unless he can explain something that would be very unlikely. Appears he was out to get the kid.

[baseline bum]

Does this fall under first or second-degree murder for Zimmerman? He didn't cap the kid right off (only during a scuffle), but he did stalk him.

[CosmicCowboy]

Does this fall under first or second-degree murder for Zimmerman? He didn't cap the kid right off (only during a scuffle), but he did stalk him.

Yeah, can't call it premeditated which is usually the threshold for 1st degree.

He may have been pre-disposed to violence but it apparently wasn't premeditated violence.

[Creepn]

So the police department listened to the 911 tapes and still concluded it was self defense?

[boutons_deux]

Zimmerman went out with a gun ready to shoot, that's premeditation, even if whom he was going to shoot wasn't known. He was locked-and-loaded for n!gg@s.

[Nbadan]

“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on,” she said. “He said he lost the man. I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for.’ And the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/20/trayon-martins-girlfriend-recalls-final-conversation-before-shooting/

[Nbadan]

Ode to Trayvon

YKaJoEyYXyI

[DMX7]

Yeah, can't call it premeditated which is usually the threshold for 1st degree.

He may have been pre-disposed to violence but it apparently wasn't premeditated violence.

If you're waiting in your car with a loaded gun looking for the first black kid you see to chase down and kill - it's premeditated.

[jack sommerset]

If you're waiting in your car with a loaded gun looking for the first black kid you see to chase down and kill - it's premeditated.

Demons do not have a color chart such as you do. God bless

[DMX7]

Demons do not have a color chart such as you do. God bless

They have eyes.

[TheProfessor]

I think there's a case to be made for premeditation, but I doubt it will be indicted as first degree murder.

[CosmicCowboy]

If you're waiting in your car with a loaded gun looking for the first black kid you see to chase down and kill - it's premeditated.

Want to bet? I'm good for $20 just for the fun of it.

Are you?

[CosmicCowboy]

And it has to be a state drawn 1st degree murder charge.

Federal civil right violations (which is where this is going) don't count.

[ploto]

This story just breaks my heart. Not only is this young man dead in senseless violence, but he died fearful of a man following him and apparently yelling for help. For the parent to hear that 911 tape with his voice on it must be devastating.

I also read today that Zimmerman was not even part of a registered Neighborhood Watch- something the police did not bother to find out the night of the shooting.

[DMX7]

And it has to be a state drawn 1st degree murder charge.

Federal civil right violations (which is where this is going) don't count.

I'm stating what it is - not making a prediction of what will happen. He hasn't even been arrested, and after seeing what happened to Casey Anthony, I'm convinced anything could still happen.

[Toby Keith]

Beers to you Mr. Zimmerman :toast

I'd love to gun me down a couple darkies

[boutons_deux]

In state that elected criminal fraudster Scott Gov and passes a "stand your ground (aka I feel threatened. You dead, mofo)" gun law, I figure Zimmerman gets off with probation at most.

[Ryan Fitzpatrick]

Beers to you Mr. Zimmerman :toast

I'd love to gun me down a couple darkies

:lmao

[boutons_deux]

Beers to you Mr. Zimmerman :toast

I'd love to gun me down a couple darkies

this gun fetishist will readily shoot along with ya


http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/uponsun/tednugent2.jpg

[JoeChalupa]

Joe Scarborough slammed the Florida PD and the AG morning on this issue. :tu

[Winehole23]

State Attorney Norm Wolfinger announced Tuesday that the Seminole County grand jury will convene April 10 regarding the federal investigation into the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/246003/19/Grand-jury-to-review-Trayvon-Martin-case

[elbamba]

I have not gone through this thread but last night Anderson Cooper had two potentiall eye-witnesses on his show. They pretty much screwed up their ability to testify. One of them essentially acknowledged that she changed her initial report to the police. The most competent witness of the two made a statement that she has been researching Zimmerman and his past isn't very clean.

If witnesses want to help, they would do the case a favor by not reporting their opinions on cable news tv. Just saying.

[Winehole23]

yep

[Winehole23]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (3 members and 1 guests) Winehole23 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14613), Yonivore (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=48), elbamba (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6942)welcome back (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=6942)

[Yonivore]

“He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on,” she said. “He said he lost the man. I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.”

“Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for.’ And the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn’t answer the phone.”
If this is a true account, it supports Zimmerman's claim it was Martin who initiated the confrontation.

I also think it's a mistake to make the assumption there is a racial element to the incident because, if provably wrong, it make Zimmerman a sympathetic character and further insulates him against prosecution for any lesser offense such as criminally negligent homicide or manslaughter.

On the other hand, the racialists could relive their success of the Rodney King affair where 4 cops wrongly and criminally beat the living shit out of a man, not because he was black, but because he was an asshole that had just led them on a high-speed, life-threatening pursuit, by haranguing Florida authorities into making this a race crime, as well.

Either way, it matters little...just another sad story in America.

[jack sommerset]

Joe Scarborough slammed the Florida PD and the AG morning on this issue. :tu

MSNBC's has giving this sheep permission to be upset over this murder. Way to chime in and God bless.

[Trill Clinton]

I'm happy this case is getting national attention.

Ray Charles can tell this is another case of racism. Only just action is to lock the racist child killer in prison for the rest of his life.

[boutons_deux]

"racialist" Yoni chimes in to slime the dead, unarmed black guy as possibly deserving to be murdered.

[Yonivore]

"racialist" Yoni chimes in to slime the dead, unarmed black guy as possibly deserving to be murdered.
You didn't read the post.

I think Zimmerman probably committed a crime but, I'm not convinced he acted based on race and harping on about that only jeopardizes any case against him.

[DMX7]

If this is a true account, it supports Zimmerman's claim it was Martin who initiated the confrontation.

I also think it's a mistake to make the assumption there is a racial element to the incident because, if provably wrong, it make Zimmerman a sympathetic character and further insulates him against prosecution for any lesser offense such as criminally negligent homicide or manslaughter.

On the other hand, the racialists could relive their success of the Rodney King affair where 4 cops wrongly and criminally beat the living shit out of a man, not because he was black, but because he was an asshole that had just led them on a high-speed, life-threatening pursuit, by haranguing Florida authorities into making this a race crime, as well.

Either way, it matters little...just another sad story in America.

It does not support his claim. And lol at you making sense of the Rodney King beating while you're at it. Great post!

[LnGrrrR]

So, let me get this straight. Pretend I start insulting some big hillbilly. I infer he's a product of incest. Now he's pissed off and tells me I better shut up. I ask him what he's going to do about it, then shove him.

Now he's really pissed off, and clocks me. I fall to the ground and see him threatening to rain some more blows down on me.

Do I now have the right to shoot him in these "Stand Your Ground" states, because I was fearing severe bodily harm?

[Stringer_Bell]

MSNBC's has giving this sheep permission to be upset over this murder. Way to chime in and God bless.

My thought exactly, young Jack.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE how the MSM is so quick to call a person with 1 black and 1 white parent "black" and yet this fat mexican dude was automatically called "white" even tho he had 1 cinnamon and 1 white parent. Hilarious.

I'll be so happy when, after all the "we demand a federal hate crime investigation" shit doesn't go anywhere, people start to retract all the racism claims. It's so obvious this fat messican dude got all high and mighty and shot the first person that made looked at him the wrong way. It wasn't about race, it was about a power trip. And yes he deserves jail, but not for being a bigot.

LOL @ people claiming he got hurt and had no choice but to shoot. They told his ass to stay in the car, fuck that bullshit about checking street signs - it's a goddamn gated community.

Finally, where was the dead kid's dad when his son left the gated community, went to 7-11 in the rain (for some iced tea and skittles - no racist!), and then punched back the keycode to get back into the gate..,and WHY DIDN'T HE CALL HIS DAD INSTEAD OF HIS GURLFRIEND WHEN IT WAS OBVIOUS THERE WAS SOME DUDE FOLLOWING HIM IN THE GATED COMMUNITY THAT HE WAS VISITING? That chick heard his last breath, crazy shit mayne.

Anyway, everyone is wrong on this story. WRONG I TELL YA!

[GSH]

I wasn't there, so I don't know. But I think it's pretty amazing how so many of you know exactly what happened. None of what I'm about to say justifies a shooting, but it sure makes me wonder how so many of you can be so certain that he intentionally set out to shoot a child, or that his sole motivation was racial. If they ever legalize lynch mobs, some of you will be perfect for the job.


The neighborhood had recently had a rash of burgularies, and Zimmerman was on the neighborhood watch [edit: just a guy watching his neighborhood, as per Ploto. Not on neighborhood watch.] It's a small gated neighborhood where most of the neighbors know each other. It was raining, and the guy was walking in the neighborhood looking at houses. When my neighborhood had a rash of break-ins, the neighborhood association told us to keep an eye out for people we didn't know, or unusual behavior. It seemed like good advice. Should they have told us not to take note of anyone who is black?

They keep showing pictures of the boy when he was 12 years old. He was 17 years old, and 6'3" tall. Not out of the question that the 5'2" Zimmerman might not have seen him as a "kid". (Just out of curiosity, why do you think they only use the 12-year-old photo?)

The family attorneys said that they heard two gunshots in a recorded phone call. They claimed that the first one was a warning shot. But the police found that Zimmerman's gun had only fired one shot. If you were the police, wouldn't you at least try to get to the bottom of that, before you hang someone?

The boy had been sent to stay with his father, because he had been suspended from school. (The parents, of course, won't reveal why he was suspended. But it wasn't anything bad - they promise.) When the boy didn't come back from the store right away, his father's first thought was that he had been arrested. Don't blame me for that - it was his father's own words. But, hey, now they say the kid never got into trouble, so why even question it?

Two of the witnesses changed their stories from what they reported to police the night it happened. One of them let it slip in a recent interview that she had "found out more about Zimmerman's past".

And here's my favorite part about the main "witness". She now has representation at press conferences. She's been claiming that police refused to take her statement. But on the night it happened, the police canvassed for witnesses, and she refused to talk. The officers pushed for a statement, and she eventually wrote one and gave it to her roommate. Her WRITTEN statement from that night was consistent with what Zimmerman told the police. Now that she's got representation, and someone to tell her what a bad guy Zimmerman is, her memories have changed.

The guy may have done wrong. Like I said, I don't know. But you people who believe everything Huffington tells you - you don't know either. If you wanted truth, you'd be looking for answers to some of the questions. What you want is a good old fashioned lynchin'. Brang a picnic and make a day of it.

[ploto]

The neighborhood had recently had a rash of burgularies, and Zimmerman was on the neighborhood watch.

Except he wasn't.

[GSH]

BTW - the same week this shooting happened, a kid in Kansas City was chased to his house, doused with gasoline, and set alight. His attackers, both black, told him "This is what you get, white boy."

MSNBC and other news outlets that are trying to say this is a hate crime barely referred to the attack, except to mention that it was "allegedly race related". The black community in KC are actually trying to excuse it, saying that he must have provoked them. No arrests have been made.

It's a good thing hypocrisy isn't a criminal act.

[GSH]

.

[GSH]

Except he wasn't.

I'll edit. Changes nothing.

Ignore everything else, and focus on that part, though.

[DMX7]

The neighborhood had recently had a rash of burgularies, and Zimmerman was on the neighborhood watch [edit: just a guy watching his neighborhood, as per Ploto. Not on neighborhood watch.] It's a small gated neighborhood where most of the neighbors know each other. It was raining, and the guy was walking in the neighborhood looking at houses.


LOL, so what? That justifies chasing him down and killing him.




He was 17 years old, and 6'3" tall. Not out of the question that the 5'2" Zimmerman might not have seen him as a "kid". (Just out of curiosity, why do you think they only use the 12-year-old photo?)


Zimmerman had a gun. Their height is irrelevant when one person has a gun and the other person has a bag of skittles.

[Creepn]

The boy had been sent to stay with his father, because he had been suspended from school. (The parents, of course, won't reveal why he was suspended. But it wasn't anything bad - they promise.) When the boy didn't come back from the store right away, his father's first thought was that he had been arrested. Don't blame me for that - it was his father's own words. But, hey, now they say the kid never got into trouble, so why even question it?



Uh maybe because this country has a history of arresting black folks walking in uppity neighborhoods? Shit, I even had cops SWARM me, guns pointed at me because I was waiting for a friend to meet me in a parking lot to give directions. They thought I was selling drugs. True story.

[Creepn]

The guy probably never seen big houses let alone being in a gated community so he took the scenic route and got gunned down for it.

[Winehole23]

You didn't read the post.

I think Zimmerman probably committed a crime but, I'm not convinced he acted based on race and harping on about that only jeopardizes any case against him.As I understand it, you're persuaded Mr. Zimmerman was attacked.

[LnGrrrR]

So, let me get this straight. Pretend I start insulting some big hillbilly. I infer he's a product of incest. Now he's pissed off and tells me I better shut up. I ask him what he's going to do about it, then shove him.

Now he's really pissed off, and clocks me. I fall to the ground and see him threatening to rain some more blows down on me.

Do I now have the right to shoot him in these "Stand Your Ground" states, because I was fearing severe bodily harm?

Anyone know the answer to this?

[Winehole23]

all the guy has to do is say he felt threatened. Florida and like a dozen other states have laws that basically encourage people to shoot if they get scared.

[Winehole23]

fearing grievous bodily harm, I unholstered my sidearm

[Winehole23]

OTOH, if one fears grievous bodily harm, why does one pursue a "suspicious character" in the street, against the explicit advice of police and against Neighborhood Watch policy?

[Wild Cobra]

all the guy has to do is say he felt threatened. Florida and like a dozen other states have laws that basically encourage people to shoot if they get scared.
You mean like the police do?

[Winehole23]

Not sure what you're referring to, but sure. Police are just people too, so it could happen from time to time.

However, Neighborhood Watch captains aren't supposed to act like cops. Maybe the rules are different for self-appointed Neighborhood Watch captains...

[boutons_deux]

Right-wing "open-minded, non-judegmental" message:

this armed-with-skittles walking-while-black guy moving away from a midget vigilante may have actually deserved to have been murdered.

Like a raped woman (another right-wing pre-occupation), we must remain open to the possibility that he asked for it.

[Wild Cobra]

Not sure what you're referring to, but sure. Police are just people too, so it could happen from time to time.

However, Neighborhood Watch captains aren't supposed to act like cops. Maybe the rules are different for self-appointed Neighborhood Watch captains...
Regardless, it appears Zimmerman put himself in harms way if it did go down as he claims. Just the same, the law stands as it is. there are evil people everywhere who will use the law to their advantage.

I'm, believing it likely Zimmerman should go to jail, but if his account is true. That changes things, even if he was a provoker. We will have to wait to see if the grand jury thinks the case should move forward. If not, there is civil suits available too.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I am living in a bizarro world.. he probably provoked him, disobeyed the 9/11 caller, and shot a kid that was doing nothing. mmk..


So if he was assualted ...it never would have happened (the assault or the killing) if he hadn't followed him!


yes we need more people on the streets with guns:toast

[JoeChalupa]

MSNBC's has giving this sheep permission to be upset over this murder. Way to chime in and God bless.

Joe is one of the few honest Republicans that has no problem calling them out and telling it like it is. God bless.

[JoeChalupa]

Zimmerman should have never gotten out of his vehicle. The Police Chief's days are numbered.

[DarrinS]

So, let me get this straight. Pretend I start insulting some big hillbilly. I infer he's a product of incest. Now he's pissed off and tells me I better shut up. I ask him what he's going to do about it, then shove him.

Now he's really pissed off, and clocks me. I fall to the ground and see him threatening to rain some more blows down on me.

Do I now have the right to shoot him in these "Stand Your Ground" states, because I was fearing severe bodily harm?


You bring up an interesting scenario. You are fighting with someone and you have a gun. You don't know if the "hillbilly" will grab your gun and shoot you with it.

[DarrinS]

At least one voice expert thinks Zimmerman said "punks" and not "koons" in the recorded call.

[DarrinS]

Many in the media speculated that the Toulouse shooter was a "right-wing" Neo Nazi.


We know differently now.


But no threads on that subject.

[Bill_Brasky]

At least one voice expert thinks Zimmerman said "punks" and not "koons" in the recorded call.

:lmao voice expert? You don't need to be an expert to listen to a recording and tell what it says.

[DarrinS]

:lmao voice expert? You don't need to be an expert to listen to a recording and tell what it says.


You hear what you want to hear, I suppose.

[DarrinS]

:lmao voice expert? You don't need to be an expert to listen to a recording and tell what it says.


Listen to it again (lol @ how it says "explicit" on this website)

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/original-zimmerman-controversial-comment-explicit/vGbyc/

[JoeChalupa]

Trayvon Martin's alleged attacker not covered under law I wrote

Trayvon Martin's alleged attacker not covered under law I wrote Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/03/21/trayvon-martins-alleged-attacker-not-covered-under-law-wrote/#ixzz1prTYHbB6


The tragic story of Trayvon Martin's death in Sanford, Florida has ignited a great deal of passion and concern regarding the circumstances of his death and the defense applied by the attacker, George Zimmerman. The fact that Trayvon Martin unnecessarily lost his life is troubling and an investigation into the surrounding circumstances is certainly warranted.

First of all I'd like to extend my condolences to the Martin family.

I have been in the funeral services profession for over 40 years; I've walked with families through many tragic circumstances and I know how difficult it is.

Related Stories
Neighborhood watch leader may have uttered racial slur before shooting
Florida teen killed by neighborhood watch captain talked to girlfriend before shooting, lawyer says
Family: Florida man didn't kill black teen in self-defense

I would like to emphasize that the approach that is currently developing in this situation, to convene a grand jury, is the proper one in which to discern the facts of this case. I certainly agree with everyone that justice must be served.

During the debate concerning this incident, some have brought into question the "Stand Your Ground" law, more commonly referred to as the "castle doctrine," which has been used by the attacker to pardon his actions.

As the prime sponsor of this legislation in the Florida House, I'd like to clarify that this law does not seem to be applicable to the tragedy that happened in Sanford. There is nothing in the castle doctrine as found in Florida statutes that authenticates or provides for the opportunity to pursue and confront individuals, it simply protects those who would be potential victims by allowing for force to be used in self-defense.

When the "stand your ground" or "castle doctrine" legislation passed in 2005, the catalytic event that brought the issue to the attention of the Florida Legislature was the looting of property in the aftermath of hurricanes.

Specifically, there was a situation in the panhandle of Florida where a citizen moved an RV onto his property, to protect the remains of his home from being looted. One evening, a perpetrator broke into the RV and attacked the property owner. The property owner, acting in self-defense in his home, shot and killed the perpetrator.

It was months before the property owner knew if he would be charged with a crime because of the lack of concrete definition in the statutes regarding self-defense and a perceived duty to retreat by the potential victim.

Until 2005, the castle doctrine had never been canonized into Florida law, but had been used with differing definition and application to the concept of self-defense. The focus of the law was to provide clear definition to acts of self-defense.

The facets of the castle doctrine deal with using force to meet force as an act of self-defense when in your home, in your car, on your property, or anywhere you are legally able to be. The law also protects property owners and their homeowner's insurance from being wrongfully sued by perpetrators who claim to be harmed while committing a crime.

The castle doctrine as passed, clarified that individuals are lawfully able to defend themselves when attacked and there is no duty to retreat when an individual is attacked on their property. Since the passage of this law in Florida, 26 other states have implemented similar statues.

Additionally, the American Legislative Exchange Council used the Florida version of the castle doctrine as model legislation for other states.

Quite simply the castle doctrine is a good law which now protects individuals in a majority of states. However, the castle doctrine does not provide protection to individuals who seek to pursue and confront others, as is allegedly the case in the Trayvon Martin tragedy in Sanford.

The information that has been publicly reported concerning Trayvon Martin's death indicates that the castle doctrine may not be applicable to justify the actions of the attacker, Mr. Zimmerman.

Media stories sharing the transcripts of the 911 tapes from the evening of the incident clearly show that Mr. Zimmerman was instructed by authorities to remain in his vehicle and to cease pursuit of Mr. Martin. George Zimmerman seems to have ignored the direction of the authorities and continued his pursuit of Mr. Martin.

Mr. Zimmerman's unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine. There is no protection in the "Stand Your Ground" law for anyone who pursues and confronts people.

I have great sympathy for the family of Trayvon Martin and am grateful that things are finally moving in the right direction to further explore what actually happened on that night in Sanford, Florida. Awaiting the convening of the grand jury, I trust that justice will be served and healing will begin for all of those affected.

Republican Dennis Baxley represents the 24th district in Florida's House of Representatives. He was the prime sponsor of the "Stand Your Ground" law in 2005. He is the principal owner and vice president of Hiers-Baxley Funeral Services.

~~~Will we have to wait till April to see this man arrested?

[LnGrrrR]

Does anyone else think that the idea that I could provoke someone then shoot them because I fear for my life, is bonkers? Just straight up fucking nutso?

[LnGrrrR]

You bring up an interesting scenario. You are fighting with someone and you have a gun. You don't know if the "hillbilly" will grab your gun and shoot you with it.

I don't... But that's probably why I shouldn't have provoked him in the first place.

[JoeChalupa]

Does anyone else think that the idea that I could provoke someone then shoot them because I fear for my life, is bonkers? Just straight up fucking nutso?

I concur.

[DarrinS]

I don't... But that's probably why I shouldn't have provoked him in the first place.


Probably not a good idea, but doesn't automatically mean you hate "hillbillies".

[LnGrrrR]

Probably not a good idea, but doesn't automatically mean you hate "hillbillies".

No, but I just don't think the "Stand your Ground"/don't have to retrea anywhere doctrine shouldn't apply to you if you were the one starting an argument. I know there would be shades of grey in those decisions, but it shouldn't be a "get out of jail free" card for being an asshole.

[TeyshaBlue]

Does anyone else think that the idea that I could provoke someone then shoot them because I fear for my life, is bonkers? Just straight up fucking nutso?

Kinda dallies with premediation, doesnt it?

[boutons_deux]

Speaking of race, what's going to happen when the GOP candidates respond when they are (perhaps inevitably) asked about the Trayvon Martin case in Florida?

Their party has very few African-American adherents and is prone to claiming that all cases like this are hoaxes trumped up by liberals. To make matters more complicated, the killer is a Hispanic and the GOP has been openly hostile to Latinos throughout this cycle, right through Santorum's dictum last weekend that Puerto Ricans learn English before they can qualify for statehood. Now that Michael Steele has abdicated, it would be no surprise if the GOP candidates outsourced the question to Herman Cain if he can be dragged out of whatever boudoir he's in.

http://www.nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/03/frank-rich-on-the-national-circus-why-romney-is-so-ripe-for-parody.html?imw=Y

[boutons_deux]

Speaking of race, what's going to happen when the GOP candidates respond when they are (perhaps inevitably) asked about the Trayvon Martin case in Florida?

Their party has very few African-American adherents and is prone to claiming that all cases like this are hoaxes trumped up by liberals. To make matters more complicated, the killer is a Hispanic and the GOP has been openly hostile to Latinos throughout this cycle, right through Santorum's dictum last weekend that Puerto Ricans learn English before they can qualify for statehood. Now that Michael Steele has abdicated, it would be no surprise if the GOP candidates outsourced the question to Herman Cain if he can be dragged out of whatever boudoir he's in.

http://www.nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/03/frank-rich-on-the-national-circus-why-romney-is-so-ripe-for-parody.html?imw=Y

[Wild Cobra]

Does anyone else think that the idea that I could provoke someone then shoot them because I fear for my life, is bonkers? Just straight up fucking nutso?
The article I read just before your posts claims the law doesn't cover provoked situations like this. I wonder how the courts will see it.

For the umpteenth time, I will say I believe all laws need a "Purpose" and "Scope" attached to them, so the black and what of the law cannot be construed for other situations. The law may not have been designed to protect the provoker, but it may be an unintended consequence.

[Wild Cobra]

Speaking of race, what's going to happen when the GOP candidates respond when they are (perhaps inevitably) asked about the Trayvon Martin case in Florida?

Their party has very few African-American adherents and is prone to claiming that all cases like this are hoaxes trumped up by liberals. To make matters more complicated, the killer is a Hispanic and the GOP has been openly hostile to Latinos throughout this cycle, right through Santorum's dictum last weekend that Puerto Ricans learn English before they can qualify for statehood. Now that Michael Steele has abdicated, it would be no surprise if the GOP candidates outsourced the question to Herman Cain if he can be dragged out of whatever boudoir he's in.

http://www.nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/03/frank-rich-on-the-national-circus-why-romney-is-so-ripe-for-parody.html?imw=Y
Damn...

Why did you have to bring that up?

Now I'm thinking like a conspiracy theorist, that some democrat operative made this happen to get Florida.

[TheProfessor]

No, but I just don't think the "Stand your Ground"/don't have to retrea anywhere doctrine shouldn't apply to you if you were the one starting an argument. I know there would be shades of grey in those decisions, but it shouldn't be a "get out of jail free" card for being an asshole.
From what I understand, under English common law you would be correct - you couldn't provoke and then claim self-defense. But the whole "clean hands" idea has been done away with by state legislatures in Florida and elsewhere.

[LnGrrrR]

The article I read just before your posts claims the law doesn't cover provoked situations like this. I wonder how the courts will see it.

He seemed to be referring to "Castle Doctrine" though, and not "Stand Your Ground" which (by my very quick perusal) seems to say you are allowed to defend yourself not just on your property but anywhere.


For the umpteenth time, I will say I believe all laws need a "Purpose" and "Scope" attached to them, so the black and what of the law cannot be construed for other situations. The law may not have been designed to protect the provoker, but it may be an unintended consequence.

I think that's easier said than done... else you'd have every law reading like Cell Phone contracts and then the world of lawyering would become as byzantine as banking is.

[Wild Cobra]

I think that's easier said than done... else you'd have every law reading like Cell Phone contracts and then the world of lawyering would become as byzantine as banking is.
I disagree.

I believe a purpose and scope would reduce the litigation, as it says what the law is intended to apply to, and has limitations in the scope.

[CosmicCowboy]

I heard the whole tape today in full and was not predisposed to judge one way or the other.

I have to say, I was struck by the long conversation between the dispatcher and the shooter. The dispatcher clearly said "we don't NEED you to follow him". She didn't say DON'T follow him. They then started talking about where he should meet the policeman when he got there and the dispatcher suggested they meet at the mailboxes. From the guys heavy breathing it seemed pretty clear he was still following the kid so he "didn't get away" before the police got there. He then told the dispatcher to just have the policeman call him when he got there and he would tell him where he was and the dispatcher said OK...It seemed almost like an acceptance and approval that he was following the kid. What happened after that is anyones guess at this point.

I certainly don't approve of the shooters behavior but it doesn't seem as clear cut as what I had been led to believe from reports.

[MannyIsGod]

Does anyone else think that the idea that I could provoke someone then shoot them because I fear for my life, is bonkers? Just straight up fucking nutso?

Yes.

[boutons_deux]

FL law says you can shoot anybody if you "feel" threatened, and no judge or police will blink.

But what about beating the shit out of somebody if you "feel" threatened (followed and confronted by a stalker)?

[Facts]

In this case I am tragic.

I am also blurry, and hard to pin down.

No one posting here knows me outside of how I have been presented in news reports.

This is probably one of the few discussions taking place on this board that matters.

[ploto]

No, but I just don't think the "Stand your Ground"/don't have to retreat anywhere doctrine shouldn't apply to you if you were the one starting an argument.

It doesn't.

[SnakeBoy]

I heard the whole tape today in full and was not predisposed to judge one way or the other.

I have to say, I was struck by the long conversation between the dispatcher and the shooter. The dispatcher clearly said "we don't NEED you to follow him". She didn't say DON'T follow him. They then started talking about where he should meet the policeman when he got there and the dispatcher suggested they meet at the mailboxes. From the guys heavy breathing it seemed pretty clear he was still following the kid so he "didn't get away" before the police got there. He then told the dispatcher to just have the policeman call him when he got there and he would tell him where he was and the dispatcher said OK...It seemed almost like an acceptance and approval that he was following the kid. What happened after that is anyones guess at this point.

I certainly don't approve of the shooters behavior but it doesn't seem as clear cut as what I had been led to believe from reports.


I don't see how you could be on the fence about this. The kid was unarmed and not doing anything wrong. The guy was told he didn't need to follow the kid but he not only followed him, he confronted him when he knew police were on the way. I don't see any scenario in which he shouldn't be facing charges, voluntary manslaughter at a minimum.

[DMX7]

First of all, the dispatcher was not a woman - which tells you just how closely Cosmic was listening to the 911 call. And furthermore, of course the dispatcher was telling Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon. How you managed to convince yourself that there was some type of implicit permission given to Zimmerman to hunt down Trayvon is beyond me. There isn't a law enforcement person in their right mind that would approve of some armed neighborhood vigilante going ahead and taking care of the "bad guy" himself until police arrived.

[Bill_Brasky]

Does anyone else think that the idea that I could provoke someone then shoot them because I fear for my life, is bonkers? Just straight up fucking nutso?

Absolutely.

[BradLohaus]

Listen to it again (lol @ how it says "explicit" on this website)

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/original-zimmerman-controversial-comment-explicit/vGbyc/

There's no way he said "coons". The "nks" sound at the end of the word is obvious.

Anybody who thinks he said "coons" must just be aching for this to be racial. It seems like he was just one of those wannabe cop types. They're never stable people with anybody.

[LnGrrrR]

It doesn't.

How do you know this? Not to be a jerk, just curious.

[Jacob1983]

How can hate be a crime and illegal? How can an emotion or feeling be a crime and illegal?

[mingus]

How can hate be a crime and illegal? How can an emotion or feeling be a crime and illegal?

Hate, emotion and feeling are not crimes or illegal.

[boutons_deux]

The murderer's mug shot:

https://motherjones.com/files/images/erljw.st_.56.preview.jpg

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

[Warlord23]

This wacko apparently made 46 calls since Jan 2011 regarding disturbances in the area. All this when he was not even part of any registered neighborhood watch organization.

Link (http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman-made-46-calls-to-911-a-year)

If he walks free, it basically means in Florida you can approach an unarmed person, start a confrontation, and then shoot them dead out of "fear for your life" when they fight back.

[Wild Cobra]

The murderer's mug shot:

You mean accused...

[Wild Cobra]

This wacko apparently made 46 calls since Jan 2011 regarding disturbances in the area. All this when he was not even part of any registered neighborhood watch organization.

Link (http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman-made-46-calls-to-911-a-year)

If he walks free, it basically means in Florida you can approach an unarmed person, start a confrontation, and then shoot them dead out of "fear for your life" when they fight back.
Can anyone provide a link that doesn't contain lies?

If all we have against this guy is material that cannot stand on the truth, then this guy will go free.

[Warlord23]

Can anyone provide a link that doesn't contain lies?

If all we have against this guy is material that cannot stand on the truth, then this guy will go free.

<Edit: there were 46 calls, but all of them didn't happen in the last year or so. 20 of these appear to be within the last 2 years. Regardless, most of them were borderline frivolous>

Here's a summary log (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html) of his 46 calls btw. Here's a more detailed log (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf) from the Sanford, FL govt website.

A majority of these calls appear trivial. A few samples:
- Children “running and playing in the street”
- Two black male suspects “20–30 YOA in [white] Chevy poss Impala at the gate of the community.
- Two black males, one wearing a black tank top and black shorts, the second wearing a black t-shirt and jeans … “Subjs are in their teens”
- Black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts
- Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts
- Subject “at the clubhouse & pool areas having a party”
- “Aggressive white and brown pitbull” sitting outside Zimmerman’s home

[Wild Cobra]

<Edit: there were 46 calls, but all of them didn't happen in the last year or so. 20 of these appear to be within the last 2 years. Regardless, most of them were borderline frivolous>

Here's a summary log (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html) of his 46 calls btw. Here's a more detailed log (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf) from the Sanford, FL govt website.

A majority of these calls appear trivial. A few samples:
- Children “running and playing in the street”
- Two black male suspects “20–30 YOA in [white] Chevy poss Impala at the gate of the community.
- Two black males, one wearing a black tank top and black shorts, the second wearing a black t-shirt and jeans … “Subjs are in their teens”
- Black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts
- Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts
- Subject “at the clubhouse & pool areas having a party”
- “Aggressive white and brown pitbull” sitting outside Zimmerman’s home
So I have to wonder...

Do you live your day to day life based of circumstantial evidence that is spun by pundits with an agenda?

[Warlord23]

So I have to wonder...

Do you live your day to day life based of circumstantial evidence that is spun by pundits with an agenda?

"Spun by pundits"? WTF? I just posted a list of calls made by this individual, many of which are self-evidently trivial. I don't think calling 911 whenever you see an unfamiliar black face is normal behavior. And where is "spin by pundits" anywhere in my post? Do you even understand the meaning of "spin"?

I think you're borderline retarded, so I won't waste any more time on you.

[Wild Cobra]

"Spun by pundits"? WTF? I just posted a list of calls made by this individual, many of which are self-evidently trivial. I don't think calling 911 whenever you see an unfamiliar black face is normal behavior. And where is "spin by pundits" anywhere in my post? Do you even understand the meaning of "spin"?

I think you're borderline retarded, so I won't waste any more time on you.
Do you know how to comprehend what you read?

The list is stated to be "911 and non emergency" calls. Not just 911. 46 incidence since 2004. I don't find that unusual for someone taking active watch of a community. Did you read through them, or are you just regurgitating what the propaganda is telling you to? There are several that are completely valid if you read them.

Would you call the police if you talked to your sister on the phone from another location and she was scared from a stranger outside?

How about a loose aggressive dog?

How about load noise, from a slow moving car at 2 AM?

Unwelcome person you don't want to let in after midnight, causing trouble?

Should I go on?

[Frank Dux]

If he walks free, it basically means in Florida you can approach an unarmed person, start a confrontation, and then shoot them dead out of "fear for your life" when they fight back.

Or like this.

...in Florida an adult can approach an unarmed, completely innocent child, scare them, and then shoot them dead out of "fear for your life" when they try to protect themselves from their pursuer.

Sounds like an awful place.

[Al Sharpton]

What I want to know is why Jeb ain't speaking about this tragic injustice! He's got time to yap about Romney but not about this serious issue.

[cheguevara]

What I want to know is why Jeb ain't speaking about this tragic injustice! He's got time to yap about Romney but not about this serious issue.

he's a Bush

[JoeChalupa]

So they drug test the victims body but don't test the shooter? WTF!?

[Borat Sagyidev]

not so surprised at the usual board conservatives defending this "accused" murderer for usual straw man BS reasons, but I thought CC was a little more independent than this.

It's funny until you're the person being victimized.

[elbamba]

Thank God he is a Mexican and not white. Now I don't care about this story anymore. Well, I think maybe they should prosecute the white Sheriff.

[Borat Sagyidev]

What ever the truth is, the reporter fails to mention the guy who killed him was bleeding from both his nose and the back of his head, and claimed self defense.


how is it self defense when you get out of your car with your gun to pursue and confront someone?

How can the US compete in an advanced world with logical failures like WC walking around without so much nonsense? This plain murder and a cover up.

Everytime a clear cut deal like this comes along, morons have to screw it up.

http://thepeoplescube.com/red/gallery/our-greatest-hits-a2/brain-of-a-conservative-republican-capitalist-i41.jpg

[CosmicCowboy]

not so surprised at the usual board conservatives defending this "accused" murderer for usual straw man BS reasons, but I thought CC was a little more independent than this.

It's funny until you're the person being victimized.

How did you interpret what I said as defending the shooter? I said that when I heard the tape I didn't interpret it as I had heard it reported. Sometimes it's best to listen to the actual evidence and draw your own conclusion rather than accepting someone else's spin on it.

Do we actually know for SURE yet which one of them was calling for help before the shot?

If there a definitive tape or eye witness?

And that's an honest question, not a spin or position.

[Trill Clinton]

https://distilleryimage2.s3.amazonaws.com/9e856fcc73f811e1a87612313804ec91_7.jpg

[DarrinS]

Wow. I guess she lives in the same cartoon world as Borat.

yZLmSunUEag

[Spurminator]

http://www.tshirthell.com/funny-shirts/recreational-hoodie-wearer-please-dont-shoot/

[Oh, Gee!!]

maybe it's not a "hate" crime, but it's some variation of homicide (manslaughter maybe?)

[ChumpDumper]

Wow. I guess she lives in the same cartoon world as Borat.Explain.

[DarrinS]

Explain.

He posted a cartoon of a "conservative" brain. I saw his cartoon, and raised him a cartoonish journalist.

[ChumpDumper]

He posted a cartoon of a "conservative" brain. I saw his cartoon, and raised him a cartoonish journalist.What was cartoonish about what she said?

[jack sommerset]

So they drug test the victims body but don't test the shooter? WTF!?

MSNBC has got you all worked up, again. Trayvon underwent an autopsy, the same as in every other suspicious death in Florida, and as part of that, was tested for drugs. Zimmerman was not tested because he was not arrested. God bless.

[Vici]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkvRYg2ZmY0&reddit=repost

[Wild Cobra]

not so surprised at the usual board conservatives defending this "accused" murderer for usual straw man BS reasons, but I thought CC was a little more independent than this.

It's funny until you're the person being victimized.
If you look back, I have said it looks like Zimmerman instigated this. However, I know reported accounts are not always correct. When the race card is played, I am extra suspicious. If the case cannot stand by itself without bringing in an emotional factor, then maybe it can't stand.

Please note, I have not defended Zimmerman. I have only pointed out the biased shit people are spewing may be wrong.

Sanity check please...

[Wild Cobra]

Fixed:

MSNBC has got you all worked up, again. Trayvon underwent an autopsy, the same as in every other suspicious death in Florida, and as part of that, was tested for drugs. Zimmerman was not tested because he was not arrested, or dead. God bless.

Do these people expect an autopsy on a live person?

My God. They think we are defending the shooter, when it's not that at all. We are pointing out stupidity.

[MannyIsGod]

Do you know how to comprehend what you read?

The list is stated to be "911 and non emergency" calls. Not just 911. 46 incidence since 2004. I don't find that unusual for someone taking active watch of a community. Did you read through them, or are you just regurgitating what the propaganda is telling you to? There are several that are completely valid if you read them.

Would you call the police if you talked to your sister on the phone from another location and she was scared from a stranger outside?

How about a loose aggressive dog?

How about load noise, from a slow moving car at 2 AM?

Unwelcome person you don't want to let in after midnight, causing trouble?

Should I go on?

:lol

Of COURSE the resident authoritarian doesn't find a problem with this behavior.

:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

:lol

Of COURSE the resident authoritarian doesn't find a problem with this behavior.

:lmao
I see someone let the ankle biters out.

[JoeChalupa]

MSNBC has got you all worked up, again. Trayvon underwent an autopsy, the same as in every other suspicious death in Florida, and as part of that, was tested for drugs. Zimmerman was not tested because he was not arrested. God bless.

My point was that Zimmerman should have been tested as part of the investigation and not just taking his word of self defense. The fact that there was no investigation is ludicrious. God bless.

[JoeChalupa]

Fixed:


Do these people expect an autopsy on a live person?

My God. They think we are defending the shooter, when it's not that at all. We are pointing out stupidity.

No, I expected a drug test on a live person. Tallk about stuipidity.

[CosmicCowboy]

My point was that Zimmerman should have been tested as part of the investigation and not just taking his word of self defense. The fact that there was no investigation is ludicrious. God bless.

I agree with this. Hell, these days if someone just gets hurt on a construction site they usually get blood tested.

[Agloco]

The dispatcher clearly said "we don't NEED you to follow him". She didn't say DON'T follow him. They then started talking about where he should meet the policeman when he got there and the dispatcher suggested they meet at the mailboxes. From the guys heavy breathing it seemed pretty clear he was still following the kid so he "didn't get away" before the police got there. He then told the dispatcher to just have the policeman call him when he got there and he would tell him where he was and the dispatcher said OK...It seemed almost like an acceptance and approval that he was following the kid. What happened after that is anyones guess at this point.

I certainly don't approve of the shooters behavior but it doesn't seem as clear cut as what I had been led to believe from reports.

smh........please tell me you're simply doing your best WC impression here.

[CosmicCowboy]

smh........please tell me you're simply doing your best WC impression here.

Please tell me you are simply doing your best bouchump impression here.

Guys with a science background usually wait until they get all the facts before they make a conclusion. That state of mind seems to be clearly lacking here.

[Bill_Brasky]

Why didn't Zimmerman mention that he had a gun? If I was approaching someone who seemed suspicious I would definitely make it known that I was carrying...

Dude needs to fry, plain and simple.

[Wild Cobra]

No, I expected a drug test on a live person. Tallk about stuipidity.
I can go along with that, but still, we weren't there to see how it all went down.

[Wild Cobra]

Please tell me you are simply doing your best bouchump impression here.

Guys with a science background usually wait until they get all the facts before they make a conclusion. That state of mind seems to be clearly lacking here.
I've come to the conclusion that Agloco doesn't have the claimed background. Just another ankle biter.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

[Yonivore]

My point was that Zimmerman should have been tested as part of the investigation...
Why? So far as I know, there hasn't been any suggestion Zimmerman was intoxicated or under the influence of narcotics or prescription medication.


...and not just taking his word of self defense.
Apparently, they didn't take his word. There is an eye witness that has provided a statement that corroborates Zimmerman's claim. According to the witness, the screams for help, heard on the 911 call, are those of Zimmerman getting the shit beat out of him by Trayvon Martin. If Zimmerman feared for his life, he had every right to use whatever force was necessary to stop Martin's assault.


The fact that there was no investigation is ludicrious. God bless.
There is an investigation. And, now there are three investigations. One by the Police Department. One by the State Police. And, one by the Justice Department.

Just because Zimmerman wasn't arrested doesn't mean the police department didn't intend to investigate the shooting. In fact, they were preparing a case to present to the Grand Jury when Al "Taywana-Braly-Crown-Heights-Race-Monger" Sharpton saw an opportunity to whip up the racists in America one more time. So, here we are.

Not that it will matter anymore, now that the racists have lined up with the narrative being spun by the media, Sharpton, Jackson, and Obama et. al. but, here's what I think happened.

Zimmerman saw a suspicious person walking through the gated community, of which he's a member of the neighborhood watch program. Zimmerman called 911 to report the suspicious person and was told not confront him. We know this from the 911 call.

Martin saw Zimmerman eyeing him and became concerned. His girlfriend urged him to run but he decided to just walk a bit faster in an effort not to cause Zimmerman to pursue him. He hadn't done anything wrong and if he ran it would make it appear that he had. We know this from his girlfriend's interview with some newspaper.

Speculation alert:

At some point Zimmerman lost sight of Martin and got out of his truck to see if he could spot him again and they encountered one another in someone's yard.

Back to what's been reported:

According to the girlfriend, she heard Martin ask someone "Why are you following me," and the person responded, "What are you doing here?" Again, according to the girlfriend, no other words were exchanged before a scuffle broke out. Again, we know this from the girlfriend's interview.

I don't recall if she she reported hearing anyone scream for help but, the eye witness reported seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman (actually he saw hoodie on top of red sweater because, he doesn't know either person) and that Zimmerman (red sweater) was screaming for help. Apparently, there is a 911 call during this time where a person can be heard screaming for help. Police say this is Zimmerman.

The eye witness retreated upstairs to his apartment and by the time he got up the stairs and looked back down, hoodie was lying motionless on the ground. I presume Zimmerman eventually felt his life was in danger -- not from a bag of skittles but from the serious beating he was getting -- and he drew his weapon and shot Martin.

None of this supports his claim of self-defense nor does it support the invoking the Florida law that police relied on in not arresting Zimmerman. But, it certainly makes it all plausible and, certainly, a reasonable conclusion that could have been drawn by police officers, on the scene, talking to witnesses, and taking the totality of the scene into consideration.

Al Sharpton, on the other hand, has nothing more than the race of the victim to go on before declaring this a racial crime so heinous that Americans should be rioting in the streets until Zimmerman is executed.

Seriously, aren't African-Americans getting just a bit tired of this tired, but dangerous, trope? I mean, the police chief is getting death threats and New Black Panther Party is issuing "Wanted: Dead or Alive" posters. It's a bit ridiculous, I think.

Meanwhile, over in Sarasota, you have a real heinous crime (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118785/Shawn-Tyson-said-murdered-James-Cooper-James-Kouzaris-Sarasota-Florida.html) that no one seems interested in getting indignant over because the shooter is black and the victims are white.

[boutons_deux]

"Why? So far as I know, there hasn't been any suggestion Zimmerman was intoxicated or under the influence of narcotics or prescription medication."

because it's SOP to test suspects for alcohol and drugs.

[boutons_deux]

racist Yoni shows up to slander the n!gg@

"to use whatever force was necessary to stop Martin's assault"

what if the black were acting under FL's Stand Your Ground law and "felt' threatened by Zimmerman stalking and confronting him.

[TheProfessor]

Seriously, aren't African-Americans getting just a bit tired of this tired, but dangerous, trope? I mean, the police chief is getting death threats and New Black Panther Party is issuing "Wanted: Dead or Alive" posters. It's a bit ridiculous, I think.

Meanwhile, over in Sarasota, you have a real heinous crime (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118785/Shawn-Tyson-said-murdered-James-Cooper-James-Kouzaris-Sarasota-Florida.html) that no one seems interested in getting indignant over because the shooter is black and the victims are white.
Why are you lumping all African-Americans in with the New Black Panther Party or those sending death threats? To say that black outrage over this incident makes them responsible for the actions of extremists is ridiculous. And in the case you bring up, the accused has already been arrested and is currently on trial.

[Yonivore]

"Why? So far as I know, there hasn't been any suggestion Zimmerman was intoxicated or under the influence of narcotics or prescription medication."

because it's SOP to test suspects for alcohol and drugs.
No. It's not. It's SOP to test suspects believed to be intoxicated or under the influence of alcohol or drugs for alcohol and drugs.

[Yonivore]

racist Yoni shows up to slander the n!gg@

"to use whatever force was necessary to stop Martin's assault"

what if the black were acting under FL's Stand Your Ground law and "felt' threatened by Zimmerman stalking and confronting him.
An independent eyewitness didn't see it that way. Also, "feeling threatened" is not justification for assaulting someone.

[Yonivore]

Why are you lumping all African-Americans in with the New Black Panther Party or those sending death threats?
I'm not. I'm asking of African-Americans are tired of Al Sharpton coming out of the wood work every time something like this happens and pretending to represent all African-Americans?

Why doesn't someone tell him to shut the fuck up? I would have thought that after the Taywana Braly episode, he would have never been taken seriously again but, hell, he keeps coming back.


To say that black outrage over this incident makes them responsible for the actions of extremists is ridiculous.
Over what do blacks have to be outraged? There is absolutely zero evidence the shooting of Treyvon Martin was racially motivated.


And in the case you bring up, the accused has already been arrested and is currently on trial.
No less reason for there to be outrage. Why can't a couple of drunk tourists wander into a neighborhood without getting murdered?

[boutons_deux]

In FL, and other Stand Your Ground states,

"feeling threatened" IS a justification for killing someone.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao
Why are you acting like a hyper Jack Russel?

Maybe I'll start calling you Jack.

[Yonivore]

In FL, and other Stand Your Ground states,

"feeling threatened" IS a justification for killing someone.
I haven't read the law but, I'm fairly confident in saying they don't list feelings as justification for deadly force under the stand your ground statute.

[Wild Cobra]

"Why? So far as I know, there hasn't been any suggestion Zimmerman was intoxicated or under the influence of narcotics or prescription medication."

because it's SOP to test suspects for alcohol and drugs.

Maybe he wasn't a suspect. Besides, without probable cause or a warrant, it would violate his constitutional rights, unless he was asked and said "OK."

[Agloco]

Please tell me you are simply doing your best bouchump impression here.

Guys with a science background usually wait until they get all the facts before they make a conclusion. That state of mind seems to be clearly lacking here.

I've listened to the 911 call. It's not open to interpretation, despite your attempt to make it so.

Is there another tape, or some other conversation that might change things? Contextual or otherwise? If there is, I'll gladly hear it. If not, it would seem that I have all of the facts needed to render the opinion I gave.

[Agloco]

I haven't read the law but, I'm fairly confident in saying they don't list feelings as justification for deadly force under the stand your ground statute.

Fearing for one's life isn't a feeling?

Spin away.

[Agloco]

I've come to the conclusion that Agloco doesn't have the claimed background. Just another ankle biter.

"We don't need you to do that."

Doesn't take a "newcooler" scientist to figure out that probably means stay where you are and don't pursue. But then, perhaps it does based on all of the quantum spins I see on the statement.

[Yonivore]

Fearing for one's life isn't a feeling?

Spin away.
Relevant portion of the Florida statute:


(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
I see "reasonably believes" not "fear."

Your turn.

[Yonivore]

A couple of more points of interest in the Florida Law (http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter0776/All):


776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013 (This is the part that contained the language I posted in my previous post. -Y), or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).


776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: (I believe this is what is being claimed - that Zimmerman provoked Martin. - Y)

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
So, according to the two exceptions above, one of which I believe Zimmerman is claiming; even if Zimmerman provoked Martin, he could still use deadly force if a) Martin responded with force Zimmerman reasonably believed placed him in imminent danger of death or great bodily hard, or b) he, in good faith, retreated and was attacked by Martin.

I think Zimmerman has claimed he was walking back to his truck, after confronting Martin and before any physical confrontation had occurred, when Martin attacked him from behind.

Next?

[Wild Cobra]

"We don't need you to do that."

Doesn't take a "newcooler" scientist to figure out that probably means stay where you are and don't pursue. But then, perhaps it does based on all of the quantum spins I see on the statement.
No, but you must be a newcomer to understanding the scientific process. I hope you don't base your conclusions on a biased set of probability.

The dispatcher could not ask him to continue what could have been a dangerous situation. That would put the city/county in a position to be sued if Zimmerman was harmed.

The dispatcher did not imply "Do not follow." Sure, you can read it as that, but you can also read it differently. I see it as likely the dialog was just to avoid liability. These law enforcement people need all the help they can get and they know it. They just can't ask people to put themselves in harms way. It seems to me they let Zimmerman make his own choice.

[Bill_Brasky]

WHO THE FUCK CARES IF HE WAS BLACK OR WHITE.

A GROWN adult SHOT and KILLED an unarmed 17 year old kid on a public walkway for no good reason. Fuck anyone who defends that.

[ElNono]

I haven't read the law but, I'm fairly confident in saying they don't list feelings as justification for deadly force under the stand your ground statute.


Relevant portion of the Florida statute:
I see "reasonably believes" not "fear."
Your turn.

So "feeling" IS part of the law...

[Agloco]

No, but you must be a newcomer to understanding the scientific process.

I must be. :rolleyes



The dispatcher could not ask him to continue what could have been a dangerous situation. That would put the city/county in a position to be sued if Zimmerman was harmed.

Yes yes.......CYA. And thus they suggested that he halt his pursuit. Zimmerman declined to do so despite having acknowledged said suggestion. At this point, one must ask why. This is especially important given the fact that Zimmerman had no authority, or cause (Martin was running from Z and up to that point, Z had not been witness to any wrongdoing on Martins part) to continue after Martin. Mind you, a unit was already on its way at this point.

He had cause (in his mind at least) to call authorities, which he did. Everything after that is suspect IMO.

I wonder what a Neighborhood Watch person is supposed to do according to the guidelines? Did he act within them? I'm hard pressed to believe that armed pursuit is part of that framework.



The dispatcher did not imply "Do not follow." Sure, you can read it as that, but you can also read it differently. I see it as likely the dialog was just to avoid liability. These law enforcement people need all the help they can get and they know it. They just can't ask people to put themselves in harms way. It seems to me they let Zimmerman make his own choice.

Choices........

I'll also add that earlier in the conversation the dispatcher asked Zimmerman to "Just let me know if he does anything ok?". I'll play you for a bit here and say that I happen to read that as the first request of Zimmerman to restrict his activity to "observation mode". So in my view he ignored two requests to simply observe rather than pursue or confront. And BOTH occured AFTER he had been notified that a unit was on its way.


We can twist this any number of ways, but I don't believe you can honestly assert that this was NOT an avoidable situation. Furthermore, I maintain that any prudent, clear minded individual would have in fact made it so.

[Wild Cobra]

So...

Could observation mode include changing your location to be able to continue to monitor?

From what I gathered, Zimmerman lost Martin, and was on his way back to his vehicle when the altercation happened. I don't know it as fact, but the bits and pieces seem to add up to Martin seeing he's being watched/followed, then backtracking to get the jump on Zimmerman.

Now...

Would you agree you don't have all the facts either?

Would you agree that Zimmerman may have acted in self defense in such a case?

[Borat Sagyidev]

I don't know why anyone is wasting their time debating this with Yoni or WC, both of them are pretty much confirmed racists or "racialists" at this point.

Might as well debate the fools on stormfront.

WWJD?
http://dybiz.com/sites_randomblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/black-jesus-45345.jpg

[Agloco]

So, according to the two exceptions above, one of which I believe Zimmerman is claiming; even if Zimmerman provoked Martin, he could still use deadly force if a) Martin responded with force Zimmerman reasonably believed placed him in imminent danger of death or great bodily hard, or b) he, in good faith, retreated and was attacked by Martin.

I think Zimmerman has claimed he was walking back to his truck, after confronting Martin and before any physical confrontation had occurred, when Martin attacked him from behind.

Next?

:lol

So we're supposed to believe that Martin ran from Z initially, only to attack Z a short time later as he (Z) was getting back into his truck? Obviously hes walking away from Martin at that point, which coincides with Martins initial agenda based on his reported actions.

In that context, an attack by Martin makes absolutely no sense.

I agree that under FL law Z was within his rights to do what he did, even if he was the instigator. You don't find that to be disconcerting at all?

[Agloco]

So...

Could observation mode include changing your location to be able to continue to monitor?

From what I gathered, Zimmerman lost Martin, and was on his way back to his vehicle when the altercation happened. I don't know it as fact, but the bits and pieces seem to add up to Martin seeing he's being watched/followed, then backtracking to get the jump on Zimmerman.

Now...

Would you agree you don't have all the facts either?

Would you agree that Zimmerman may have acted in self defense in such a case?

See my post to Yoni.

But yes if Martin did indeed decide, for whatever reason, to stop fleeing and attack Z......then yes Z is most justified.

Your scenario is nonsensical though. I dont see Martin running then, being on the verge of escape, (since Z is getting back in his truck and riding off) all of a sudden being inclined to attack Z.

That take is rubbish IMO.

[Creepn]

It really sucks that we have to go back to passing down the Black Codes to our kids again. We didn't think we'd have to teach our kids about it in 2012 and I'm sure Treyvon's dad thought the same as well because Treyvon broke a lot of the rules.

[Agloco]

So...

Could observation mode include changing your location to be able to continue to monitor?

Yes. However, he was then told by the dispatcher that this action was not necessary.

"Ok, we don't need you to do that".

[Creepn]

So...

Could observation mode include changing your location to be able to continue to monitor?

From what I gathered, Zimmerman lost Martin, and was on his way back to his vehicle when the altercation happened. I don't know it as fact, but the bits and pieces seem to add up to Martin seeing he's being watched/followed, then backtracking to get the jump on Zimmerman.

Now...

Would you agree you don't have all the facts either?

Would you agree that Zimmerman may have acted in self defense in such a case?

lmao W...T...F??? :rollin

[TDMVPDPOY]

looks like they looking for compensation?

[Capt Bringdown]

The neighbor's 911 tapes sure sound like a kid screaming for help before his young life was taken by a murderer's bullet:

www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-audio-_n_1354909.html

[Wild Cobra]

The neighbor's 911 tapes sure sound like a kid screaming for help before his young life was taken by a murderer's bullet:

www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-audio-_n_1354909.html
Yes, we heard it already. One account has a witness saying the that it's Zimmerman screaming.

Until more facts come out, there is no way top know what really happened.

[jack sommerset]

I would like George to go to jail for murder. That's what it is, imo. The problem is proving it in a court of law which I can't see them being able to do. It's time to revist the gun laws and make some changes. Even if it's directed solely at neighborhood watch guys, I'm good with that for the time being. God bless.

[TheProfessor]

I would like George to go to jail for murder. That's what it is, imo. The problem is proving it in a court of law which I can't see them being able to do. It's time to revist the gun laws and make some changes. Even if it's directed solely at neighborhood watch guys, I'm good with that for the time being. God bless.
I think there will definitely be some changes to the self-defense laws in Florida in elsewhere as a result, and not just directed at the neighborhood watch. It's about time, prosecutors have been complaining about this for a while. As for Zimmerman, I have no clue how a trial would play out. But it's going to be very difficult for him to get a fair and impartial trial in Florida.

[Agloco]

looks like they looking for compensation?

That was a given from the instant Z's bullet entered Martins body.

Regardless of the criminal investigation, there will most definitely be civil action.

[JoeChalupa]

See my post to Yoni.

But yes if Martin did indeed decide, for whatever reason, to stop fleeing and attack Z......then yes Z is most justified.

Your scenario is nonsensical though. I dont see Martin running then, being on the verge of escape, (since Z is getting back in his truck and riding off) all of a sudden being inclined to attack Z.

That take is rubbish IMO.

I can see where Martin may have decided to confront Zimmerman and was kicking his ass when Zimmerman made the decision to fire his weapon. It may be a case of bad judgement on Zimmerman's part causing Martin to defend himself against an unknown pursuer and thus causing Zimmerman to defend himself make this a justifiable homicide?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

That was a given from the instant Z's bullet entered Martins body.

Regardless of the criminal investigation, there will most definitely be civil action.

Because his grieving parents need millions in order to fully grieve.

[JoeChalupa]

Because his grieving parents need millions in order to fully grieve.

So you are saying there should not be a civil suit?

I wonder if Zimmerman's willingness to pursue Martin would have been diminished if he were not armed.

[boutons_deux]

No doubt, like all dickless assholes who feed the need to pack heat, Zimmerman was emboldened by his iron penis to stalk and harass Martin.

And if he flashed his steel appendage at Martin, Martin had every right to Stand-His-Ground, to feel threatened and go after Z in self-defense.

[CosmicCowboy]

Just saw this and didn't see it posted. Apologies if it has been. Looks like there possibly WAS an eye witness that saw Trayvon beating Zimmerman before the shooting.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/witness_supports_self_defense_story_hJ7s3EBd9LtYlZ aE41WzFP

An alleged eyewitness is backing the 28-year-old gunman at the center of a national firestorm.
A person named “John” told a Fox affiliate in Orlando that he saw an altercation unfold between George Zimmerman and 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, whom he shot and killed on Feb. 26.
Police said Zimmerman called 911 and described Martin as “suspicious.” The two scuffled, and Trayvon wound up dead from a single bullet from Zimmerman’s licensed 9mm semiautomatic, authorities say.
“The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help, help.’ I told him to stop, I was calling 911,” John told the TV station. Zimmerman was wearing red.

“When I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was laying in the grass. And I believe he was dead at that point,” the eyewitness claimed.
Zimmerman has claimed he acted in self-defense, though he was the one following Trayvon. He has not been charged and has been in hiding since the shooting.
Trayvon’s friends have said the teen was not violent and they could never imagine him getting into a fight.
Zimmerman’s family said race had nothing to do with the incident.
“Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas,” Zimmerman’s father, George, a retired judge, wrote in the Orlando Sentinel


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/witness_supports_self_defense_story_hJ7s3EBd9LtYlZ aE41WzFP#ixzz1q8t6rsDn

[O.J. Simpson]

Because his grieving parents need millions in order to fully grieve.

Tell that to the Goldman family, fuck-stick.

[JoeChalupa]

Just saw this and didn't see it posted. Apologies if it has been. Looks like there possibly WAS an eye witness that saw Trayvon beating Zimmerman before the shooting.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/witness_supports_self_defense_story_hJ7s3EBd9LtYlZ aE41WzFP

An alleged eyewitness is backing the 28-year-old gunman at the center of a national firestorm.
A person named “John” told a Fox affiliate in Orlando that he saw an altercation unfold between George Zimmerman and 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, whom he shot and killed on Feb. 26.
Police said Zimmerman called 911 and described Martin as “suspicious.” The two scuffled, and Trayvon wound up dead from a single bullet from Zimmerman’s licensed 9mm semiautomatic, authorities say.
“The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help, help.’ I told him to stop, I was calling 911,” John told the TV station. Zimmerman was wearing red.

“When I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was laying in the grass. And I believe he was dead at that point,” the eyewitness claimed.
Zimmerman has claimed he acted in self-defense, though he was the one following Trayvon. He has not been charged and has been in hiding since the shooting.
Trayvon’s friends have said the teen was not violent and they could never imagine him getting into a fight.
Zimmerman’s family said race had nothing to do with the incident.
“Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas,” Zimmerman’s father, George, a retired judge, wrote in the Orlando Sentinel


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/witness_supports_self_defense_story_hJ7s3EBd9LtYlZ aE41WzFP#ixzz1q8t6rsDn


So he confronted Martin, was getting his ass kicked, so his own willingness to pursue Martin was a contributing factor in his having to defend himself. Which is why I question if he would have done so had he not been armed.

[MannyIsGod]

Because his grieving parents need millions in order to fully grieve.

If your child was murdered would you not take every possible action against those that did it? I know I would.

[CosmicCowboy]

So he confronted Martin, was getting his ass kicked, so his own willingness to pursue Martin was a contributing factor in his having to defend himself. Which is why I question if he would have done so had he not been armed.

I wasn't there and don't claim to know who confronted who. As I have been saying repeatedly, until more facts come out I am witholding judgement.

[MannyIsGod]

This guys history of calling the police speaks volumes to me. If you want to be PC and say we should wait for the facts then thats fine (although I find it ironic that those doing that in this thread are the ones that usually jump to conclusions when its convenient to their crusades) but don't act like the reported facts don't look really really bad for this guy.

[CosmicCowboy]

This guys history of calling the police speaks volumes to me. If you want to be PC and say we should wait for the facts then thats fine (although I find it ironic that those doing that in this thread are the ones that usually jump to conclusions when its convenient to their crusades) but don't act like the reported facts don't look really really bad for this guy.

Agree, the fact that he was a self appointed neighborhood watch and was armed (even though he had a legal permit to be armed) looks bad for hm.

[MannyIsGod]

I didn't know this guy was arrested for violently resisting arrest in the past. Someone explain to me how he still had a CHL???? Back to Viva's point, I would sue the HELL out of the state of Florida if I was the parents.

[JoeChalupa]

I wasn't there and don't claim to know who confronted who. As I have been saying repeatedly, until more facts come out I am witholding judgement.

I concur. There were though, IMHO, too many unanswered questions to not do a further investigation. I can understand his being released but the fact that that pretty much ended the investigation is what I have an issue with.

[Agloco]

I can see where Martin may have decided to confront Zimmerman and was kicking his ass when Zimmerman made the decision to fire his weapon. It may be a case of bad judgement on Zimmerman's part causing Martin to defend himself against an unknown pursuer and thus causing Zimmerman to defend himself make this a justifiable homicide?

This is the part I just don't see though.

However, if Martin decided to attack / confront Z (inexplicably in my mind unless, again, Z instigated the conflict), then everything you posted is indeed possible, and justifiable from Z's viewpoint.

However, every account has Martin running from Z. That fact is not in dispute. An attack by Martin runs contrary to his observed behavior.......unless:

We establish a plausible motive for Martin to attack Z.....other than in a scenario where Z has him cornered and Martin sees Z as the aggressor / instigator. Otherwise, we're left with the same "stand your ground" argument for Martin.

I'm inclined to think that the latter was indeed the case. Z told police that he got out of his car (again) to check where he was right before he was attacked from behind. This obviously occurred after his call with dispatch. Something about that doesn't sit right with me. Why did he get out of the safety of his car....again? Remember that initially he was out of his car in pursuit of Martin while on the phone with dispatch. It would seem that Z lost Martin, got back into his car, and then began driving around to see if he could reacquire Martin.

He has been on record as the watchman in that small gated community for a long while (at least 14 months according to police phone logs) and did so on a nightly basis......... why would he need to get out of his car (again) to confirm where he was? I say that the reason he exited his car was that he did indeed reacquire Martin and got out to confront him, not to verify his location.

Things then went down one way or another, with both being able to make a case for justifiable homicide under FLs "stand your ground" law. I don't think Z killed Martin in cold blood though. I believe that Z had a bad case of the "wannabes".

[Agloco]

Because his grieving parents need millions in order to fully grieve.

:rolleyes

It's the principle behind the matter. Although, the world will never know what Trayvons full economic potential would have been.

[JoeChalupa]

This is the part I just don't see though.

However, if Martin decided to attack / confront Z (inexplicably in my mind unless, again, Z instigated the conflict), then everything you posted is indeed possible, and justifiable from Z's viewpoint.

However, every account has Martin running from Z. That fact is not in dispute. An attack by Martin runs contrary to his observed behavior.......unless:

We establish a plausible motive for Martin to attack Z.....other than in a scenario where Z has him cornered and Martin sees Z as the aggressor / instigator. Otherwise, we're left with the same "stand your ground" argument for Martin.

I'm inclined to think that the latter was indeed the case. Z told police that he got out of his car (again) to check where he was right before he was attacked from behind. This obviously occurred after his call with dispatch. Something about that doesn't sit right with me. Why did he get out of the safety of his car....again? Remember that initially he was out of his car in pursuit of Martin while on the phone with dispatch. It would seem that Z lost Martin, got back into his car, and then began driving around to see if he could reacquire Martin.

He has been on record as the watchman in that small gated community for a long while (at least 14 months according to police phone logs) and did so on a nightly basis......... why would he need to get out of his car (again) to confirm where he was? I say that the reason he exited his car was that he did indeed reacquire Martin and got out to confront him, not to verify his location.

Things then went down one way or another, with both being able to make a case for justifiable homicide under FLs "stand your ground" law. I don't think Z killed Martin in cold blood though. I believe that Z had a bad case of the "wannabes".

Good points which I too have an issue with. If Martin was standing his ground against a person whom he felt was following him then I can see, if this were to go to a jury trial, that he would be found innocent or a hung jury. Although I do put the blame on Zimmerman it may not be enought for a conviction.

[Stringer_Bell]

Tbh, the fact that Zimmerman's dad is a retired judge now makes me think that something sour might have gone on. I still think there's tons of unanswered questions from Trayvon's family (which will need to be answered in a civil suit) and hate how the media/groups/basketball players are whoring it out as a "hate crime" but it definately feels like the cops stopped short of something cuz his daddy was a judge.

If not for the death threats on Zimmerman, I'd say the police dept should be the most worried.

[Koolaid_Man]

Fixed:


Do these people expect an autopsy on a live person?

My God. They think we are defending the shooter, when it's not that at all. We are pointing out stupidity.


what we expect is for an investigation and drug / alcohol test of a person that just discharged his weapon and killed another person...and person who the cops already know has a history of over reacting (like calling 911; 46 times in one month) that's an unstable person...