Trayvon Martin - black kid armed with skittles killed in "self-defense"

[Koolaid_Man]

Tbh, the fact that Zimmerman's dad is a retired judge now makes me think that something sour might have gone on. I still think there's tons of unanswered questions from Trayvon's family (which will need to be answered in a civil suit) and hate how the media/groups/basketball players are whoring it out as a "hate crime" but it definately feels like the cops stopped short of something cuz his daddy was a judge.

If not for the death threats on Zimmerman, I'd say the police dept should be the most worried.


It is a hate crime...he hated blacks because blacks had been breaking into homes in his community...he didn't personally know Trayvon that's besides the point all we know is he hated Blacks...and if you look further into this case he was assaulted by blacks when he was a 17 or 18 himself - so he definitely had reason to hate...

I say put in a needle in him...if it was my son and this guy got off..I'd have him murdered tbh

[Koolaid_Man]

I didn't know this guy was arrested for violently resisting arrest in the past. Someone explain to me how he still had a CHL???? Back to Viva's point, I would sue the HELL out of the state of Florida if I was the parents.

and if he got away with it in the courts I would have him murdered if it was my son

[Trainwreck2100]

It is a hate crime...he hated blacks because blacks had been breaking into homes in his community...he didn't personally know Trayvon that's besides the point all we know is he hated Blacks...and if you look further into this case he was assaulted by blacks when he was a 17 or 18 himself - so he definitely had reason to hate...

I say put in a needle in him...if it was my son and this guy got off..I'd have him murdered tbh

It's not a hate crime he didn't kill him cause he was black. He thought he was commiting a crime cause he was black.

[Stringer_Bell]

It is a hate crime...he hated blacks because blacks had been breaking into homes in his community...he didn't personally know Trayvon that's besides the point all we know is he hated Blacks...and if you look further into this case he was assaulted by blacks when he was a 17 or 18 himself - so he definitely had reason to hate...

I say put in a needle in him...if it was my son and this guy got off..I'd have him murdered tbh

This is trial by media, and we've only heard one side of the story/tapes. I think, in the end, Zimmerman gets off relatively easier than the police dept does for not doing their job correctly at the start. Black people are coming out in support of Zimmerman, but folks watching TV WANT this to be about race and the liberal media wants to push anti-gun legislation because IMO Zimmerman should not have been allowed to carry a gun.

I don't care if he got beat up by blacks when he was a kid, I care about the facts that night and then take it from there. And nobody has access to those facts because 1) they aren't released or 2) the cops didn't follow proper procedure.

Besides, everyone is racist on some level (sub-conscious for most), so I don't even stress by trying to find evidence for something that's a fact no matter what. It's just that it's gotta be proven you're racist enough to kill, and I don't see anything that proves that here.

[Stringer_Bell]

and if he got away with it in the courts I would have him murdered if it was my son

Of course, cuz you sent your son out in da pouring rain on foot (to leave a gated community, come back to the gated community) and had a good enough relationship with your son to where he knows he can call you, HIS FATHER, if a fat mexican in an SUV is trailing him on the way back from the corner store.

I'd prolly pour some Colt 45 out for ya boy, but I wouldn't pour shit out for you as a father.

[CosmicCowboy]

what we expect is for an investigation and drug / alcohol test of a person that just discharged his weapon and killed another person...and person who the cops already know has a history of over reacting (like calling 911; 46 times in one month) that's an unstable person...

He didn't call 46 times in one month. As I remember it that was over an 8 year period.

[Koolaid_Man]

It's not a hate crime he didn't kill him cause he was black. He thought he was commiting a crime cause he was black.


illogical given the facts..if you want to be intellectually honest then your post would have read like this: "It's not a hate crime he didn't kill him cause he was black. He thought he was committing a crime because he was black so he killed him.

the perfect reason to make it a hate crime...targeting black guys...and killing them

[MannyIsGod]

Still way too damn high. This guys history paints a picture of someone who really wanted to be the good guy in a fucking action movie. Or at the least in an episode of cops.

[CosmicCowboy]

Still way too damn high. This guys history paints a picture of someone who really wanted to be the good guy in a fucking action movie. Or at the least in an episode of cops.

Agreed. He sounds like a creepy busybody. I'm still not ready to wish the death penalty on him without more facts.

[Trainwreck2100]

illogical given the facts..if you want to be intellectually honest then your post would have read like this: "It's not a hate crime he didn't kill him cause he was black. He thought he was committing a crime because he was black so he killed him.

the perfect reason to make it a hate crime...targeting black guys...and killing them

He didnt target him to kill him he targeted him cause he thought he was committing a crime.

[Trainwreck2100]

Still way too damn high. This guys history paints a picture of someone who really wanted to be the good guy in a fucking action movie. Or at the least in an episode of cops.

True, this guy ended up being the epitome of a pussy with a gun. Fat cause he didn't want to exercise, dumb cause he didn't want to learn. So go out and buys a gun to feel powerful.

[Koolaid_Man]

This is trial by media, and we've only heard one side of the story/tapes. I think, in the end, Zimmerman gets off relatively easier than the police dept does for not doing their job correctly at the start. Black people are coming out in support of Zimmerman, but folks watching TV WANT this to be about race and the liberal media wants to push anti-gun legislation because IMO Zimmerman should not have been allowed to carry a gun.

I don't care if he got beat up by blacks when he was a kid, I care about the facts that night and then take it from there. And nobody has access to those facts because 1) they aren't released or 2) the cops didn't follow proper procedure.

Besides, everyone is racist on some level (sub-conscious for most), so I don't even stress by trying to find evidence for something that's a fact no matter what. It's just that it's gotta be proven you're racist enough to kill, and I don't see anything that proves that here.


You're pretty delusional to think everyone is racist on some level. Perhaps you're getting prejudice , racism, bigotry, stereotyping, and fear all mixed up...If so I suggest you go back and study their definitions.
You're right about one thing...the only side of the story we're hearing is Zimmerman's because the kid is dead...

This is ALL about race...Since the FACTS show break-ins in his community was done by young black males and thus the reason "in his mind" for Zimmerman to go after him the first place makes it about race...we're not God so we can't attach a racism detector to Zimmerman's heart to determine his exact level of racism...we as imperfect humans determine that by Zimmerman's history, words, actions, and obvious motives.

"These assholes always get away" that statement alone by Zimmerman can really be served up on a conviction platter. Now he could have meant merely criminals or he could have meant young black criminals. We know for a fact based on testimony of others in the neighborhood he had a preoccupation with young black males...and according to your own theory perhaps that little racism that you claim we ALL have reared it's ugly head that night when he decided to give chase to this kid. Trayvon had no way of knowing about the break-ins in the neighborhood he was visiting...

Zimmerman was embolden by the fact he had a gun...there's no way either of us will chase a perp in the dark of the night if we don't think we have an advantage. He already had his mind made up that he was going to catch him and subdue him and if he couldn't get the upper hand he was going to shoot him...plain and simple...the fact that he had not caught any of the previous young black males who were actually criminals pushed him over the edge..he wasn't going to let this one get away...some basic and simple deductive and inductive reasoning is all this case takes... had this been a group of young black males that fat fuck would have stayed in his truck and waited on the cops because he wouldn't have been able to get the upper hand even with a gun...why? because the likely-hood that at least one of them would have been packing would have been high...

My view based on what I've read is that he developed an intense hatred for young black males...(and I can understand) that's fine...but even if Trayvon was there casing out homes that doesn't give a citizen the right to approach him to detain or ask questions, shoot him and then claim self defense...he's nothing but a wanna be cop and I gaurantee if he didn't have his gun with him that night he would have never gave chase..this was a pre-meditated murder based on Race...plain and simple

[Koolaid_Man]

He didnt target him to kill him he targeted him cause he thought he was committing a crime.


Do you think he would have chased the "criminal" of he didn't have his gun with him? :lol He targeted the criminal to kill him and he already knew about the stand your ground law he was just too stupid to understand the context in which it could be used...:lol

He planned to eventually kill this person all along...he approached a scared kid found out that he couldn't subdue him as easily as he thought and then resorted to plan B...shoot him...when the kid saw him reaching for his gun he started screaming for help and the kid was probably trying to prevent him from reaching the gun to pull the trigger...

Trayvon died heroically in my view fighting back against a stalker...

[Trainwreck2100]

Do you think he would have chased the "criminal" of he didn't have his gun with him? :lol He targeted the criminal to kill him and he already knew about the stand your ground law he was just too stupid to understand the context in which it could be used...:lol

He planned to eventually kill this person all along...he approached a scared kid found out that he couldn't subdue him as easily as he thought and then resorted to plan B...shoot him...when the kid saw him reaching for his gun he started screaming for help and the kid was probably trying to prevent him from reaching the gun to pull the trigger...

Trayvon died heroically in my view fighting back against a stalker...

What about anything you said there makes it qualify to be prosecuted as a hate crime.

[Goran Dragic]

I would like George to go to jail for murder. That's what it is, imo. The problem is proving it in a court of law which I can't see them being able to do.
Wrong. They can obviously prove the murder. When the defendant is attempting to get acquitted due to self defense while not disputing the fact he killed the victim, the burden of proof flips to him. He has to demonstrate a "reasonable human being" would fear for his life in that situation. A reasonable human being who weighs 240 pounds carrying a gun probably isn't fearing for his life due to an unarmed guy running away from him who weighs 160 pounds tops.

The problem isn't what would happen in court, the problem now is that the local police fucked so much up I doubt it ever makes it to court.

[Koolaid_Man]

What about anything you said there makes it qualify to be prosecuted as a hate crime.


I left out the "Coons's statement in his 911 call...with all the corroborating evidence we have we'll make the appropriate racial tie-in...

Man where is Johnny Cochran when you need him....:lol

[Trainwreck2100]

Wrong. They can obviously prove the murder. When the defendant is attempting to get acquitted due to self defense while not disputing the fact he killed the victim, the burden of proof flips to him. He has to demonstrate a "reasonable human being" would fear for his life in that situation. A reasonable human being who weighs 240 pounds carrying a gun probably isn't fearing for his life due to an unarmed guy running away from him who weighs 160 pounds tops.

The problem isn't what would happen in court, the problem now is that the local police fucked so much up I doubt it ever makes it to court.

If that witness was there and they interviewed him the night of the shooting then he corroborates that the kid wasn't running away. Eyewitness trumps everything unless they can prove the witness is not credible, and so far they can't.

[Goran Dragic]

While I think it was a racially motivated crime there isn't anywhere near the right amount of evidence needed to prove that. They'd be able to find a linguistics expert who testifies that it's some random word other than coon. The fact the first question the 911 dispatcher asked was concerning race basically ends any chance that goes anywhere.

[boutons_deux]

Did Fox News Stop Selling Hoodies After Trayvon Martin’s Death?

After Fox News contributor Geraldo Rivera was pilloried Friday for saying that black and Latino kids are basically asking to get shot if they go outside wearing a hooded sweatshirt, BuzzFeed jokingly noted that FoxNews.com sells branded hoodies. But after their report went up, Fox apparently removed the hoodies from their online store. A search for “sweatshirt” and “hood” returns zero results.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/03/25/451351/fox-news-hoodie-trayvon/

[Koolaid_Man]

That white woman who was a witness in the Tayvon Martin case I want to meet her..She looks like she can make "real good love"

[Goran Dragic]

If that witness was there and they interviewed him the night of the shooting then he corroborates that the kid wasn't running away. Eyewitness trumps everything unless they can prove the witness is not credible, and so far they can't.
The eyewitness who said he told Martin to stop because he was gonna call 911, went upstairs and didn't call 911? I highly doubt Martin would have continued to beat on Zimmerman if he thought someone was calling 911. He would have stopped beating Zimmerman up and bolted out of there. That witness's testimony doesn't add up. I don't think that eyewitness was interviewed that night though, it was later on. The cops fucked this up royally regardless of what actually happened.

[Agloco]

Wrong. They can obviously prove the murder. When the defendant is attempting to get acquitted due to self defense while not disputing the fact he killed the victim, the burden of proof flips to him. He has to demonstrate a "reasonable human being" would fear for his life in that situation.

Not true......this is the worst part of the situation, and why I believe Z will eventually walk away without facing charges (short of them finding evidence that this was racially motivated). The burden of proof never shifts from the prosecution, as it should be. Unfortunately this hamstrings any effort to convict someone using this "stand your ground" defense.

Sad but true.

[Agloco]

He didn't call 46 times in one month. As I remember it that was over an 8 year period.

Neither. It was 46 times over approximately 14 months.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html


Zimmerman called police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011 to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents. Nine of those times, he saw someone or something suspicious.

[Agloco]

He didnt target him to kill him he targeted him cause he thought he was committing a crime.

Actuallly, Z targeted him because:


Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking
about.

In Z's estimation, he looked suspicious, up to no good, and appeared to be on drugs or "something". Nothing in Z's statement suggests that he had witnessed Martin "committing a crime".

[Agloco]

Wow...this community has a total of 3 streets and and land area of just under .04 sq mi......... (That's .2 by .2 miles btw). IOW, it's small, real small.

Yet Z needed to get out of his vehicle to verify his location after 14 months of nightly "self appointed" armed neighborhood watch duty?

Is there a "fish" icon? :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Neither. It was 46 times over approximately 14 months.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html

The Herald is wrong. I downloaded the PDF with the 46 incidents. They start in 2004.

[Wild Cobra]

Wow...this community has a total of 3 streets and and land area of just under .04 sq mi......... (That's .2 by .2 miles btw). IOW, it's small, real small.

Yet Z needed to get out of his vehicle to verify his location after 14 months of nightly "self appointed" armed neighborhood watch duty?

Is there an "fish" icon? :lol
I looked at in with Google Maps.

The area is long and narrow.

[Koolaid_Man]

Wow...this community has a total of 3 streets and and land area of just under .04 sq mi......... (That's .2 by .2 miles btw). IOW, it's small, real small.

Yet Z needed to get out of his vehicle to verify his location after 14 months of nightly "self appointed" armed neighborhood watch duty?

Is there an "fish" icon? :lol


I want to fuck this witness (pink shirt) bad...I'm going to see if I can meet her via facebook... don't worry those who know me can vouch for my penchant for white women and she's one of my type :lol

YBr9GZCZ01I

[Stringer_Bell]

You're pretty delusional to think everyone is racist on some level. Perhaps you're getting prejudice , racism, bigotry, stereotyping, and fear all mixed up...If so I suggest you go back and study their definitions.

My bad, playa, I did mean prejudice but with all this racist shit going on I used the wrong word. Everybody has something on somebody tho, but most people never FEEL or ACT to the point of intruding on a person's life or rights just cuz that person is a different colour or religion or sex.

Murder is murder, and a cover-up is conspiracy...that is what I want to know about, not how many calls a dude made calls to 911 or how many times he got beat up in high school by black dudes. Bringing race into this makes it theatre and easier for miss the point...which is, cops didn't do their job or need to release info to show they did.

[CosmicCowboy]

I want to fuck this witness (pink shirt) bad...I'm going to see if I can meet her via facebook... don't worry those who know me can vouch for my penchant for white women and she's one of my type :lol

YBr9GZCZ01I

Does she live on a flag lot?

[CosmicCowboy]

The Herald is wrong. I downloaded the PDF with the 46 incidents. They start in 2004.

That is what I read as well.

[boutons_deux]

the guy's a wanna-be cop, his father was a judge, just another dickless asshole with a gun who finally got his fondest dream of killing a young black male.

[Koolaid_Man]

Does she live on a flag lot?


When I'm surfing the net and posting on ST I let this play in the background...

Y2mjvFNOwmc

[InRareForm]

Stand you ground needs a major overhaul.... How does a survivor in a situation like this, get to dictate what was self defense or not.

[Yonivore]

I concur. There were though, IMHO, too many unanswered questions to not do a further investigation. I can understand his being released but the fact that that pretty much ended the investigation is what I have an issue with.
Who said it ended the investigation? Police were always going to present the case to the Grand Jury.

[TE]

That's the demon in you talking.

:lol

[Goran Dragic]

OK, she goes as far as saying he had injuries consistent with self defense. That's it. She doesn't point out the back of his head was bleeding, and a bloody nose.
That's because she doesn't think Zimmerman is a victim like you seem to think he is.

Classic Wild Cobra trying to paint the criminal as the victim and the victim as the criminal.

[jack sommerset]

Who said it ended the investigation? Police were always going to present the case to the Grand Jury.

He doesn't know what he says let alone means. He wants anyone that is under investigation to be drug tested. I think he has smoked a little too much back in the day. God bless


"I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!"

[Agloco]

The Herald is wrong. I downloaded the PDF with the 46 incidents. They start in 2004.


That is what I read as well.

With all of your "ankle biter" rhetoric of late, I figured you'd waste no time in correcting me and providing us with a link to your source.

So where is it?

[Agloco]

I looked at in with Google Maps.

The area is long and narrow.

What was your search entry?

[Wild Cobra]

That's because she doesn't think Zimmerman is a victim like you seem to think he is.

Classic Wild Cobra trying to paint the criminal as the victim and the victim as the criminal.
What is "classic' about what I commonly do is point out what it appears nobody else is noticing. That doesn't mean I believe one way or another. I'm actually neutral on this issue. It's your own bias that makes it appear otherwise.

[Wild Cobra]

With all of your "ankle biter" rhetoric of late, I figured you'd waste no time in correcting me and providing us with a link to your source.

So where is it?
It was a link in an earlier piece of linked material. I'll take a quick look for it, but if I don't find it right away, then you can dog it up yourself as I don't remember which post it was in.

Don't you ever verify what you are told? I almost always do.

[Wild Cobra]

Here's the link, and it's the photocopies from the Sanford Police department, from their site at http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Call History (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf)

[Wild Cobra]

From City of Sanford Trayvon Martin Investigation (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html), Read More (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf):

Fellow Citizens:

There has been a lot of media attention to the recent incident where George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. This is indeed a tragic situation and has caused a flood of questions and strong emotions from within our community, the region and nation. On behalf of the employees of the City of Sanford, Our deepest sympathy and prayers go out to the family and friends of Trayvon Martin. As a father, I can only image the pain Trayvon’s family must be going through. The City of Sanford is committed to insuring that justice is served and, therefore, the City of Sanford has contacted the United States Attorney General’s Office for assistance in this matter.

In an effort to continue to be as responsive as possible to the public seeking information on the incident, I have asked Chief Lee to provide answers to some of the most frequently asked questions regarding this matter. Below are his responses. Please understand that since this is still an ongoing investigation, the Police Department is limited in what information it can publicly release.

The men and women of the Sanford Police Department extend our heartfelt sympathies to the Martin family. This is indeed a tragic situation. The death of anyone due to violence, especially a 17 year old young man, is morally appalling. As this incident has generated a lot of media attention, we wanted to provide answers to some of the most frequently asked questions.

Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?

When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr. Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.

According to Florida Statute 776.032 : 776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

Why weren’t the 911 tapes initially released?

There are exemptions to the public records laws for active criminal intelligence and for ongoing investigations. In this instance, the 911 calls made by neighbors in the subdivision, and the non-emergency call made by Mr. Zimmerman are all key to the investigation by Sanford Police Department. In consultation with the Office of the State Attorney, the Sanford police department had decided not to release the audio recordings of the 911 calls due to the ongoing investigation. Many times, specific information is contained in those recordings which is vital to the integrity of the investigation. At the time, it was determined that if revealed, the information may compromise the integrity of the investigation prior to its completion. The 911 tapes have since been released.

Why did Mr. Zimmerman have a firearm in his possession while acting in the role of a neighborhood watch member?

Mr. Zimmerman holds a concealed weapon permit issued from the State of Florida. He is authorized to carry the weapon in a concealed manner wherever Florida Statute dictates. Neighborhood Watch programs are designed for members of a neighborhood to be “eyes and ears” for police and to watch out for their neighbors. They are not members of the Police Department nor are they vigilantes. Training provided by law enforcement agencies to Neighborhood Watch organizations stresses non-contact surveillance of suspicious situations and notifying police of those situations so that law enforcement can respond and take control of the situation. Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred. He was in fact on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the Sanford Police Department.

If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be considered in this investigation?

Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be required to follow. Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by Trayvon.

Why was George Zimmerman labeled as “squeaky clean” when in fact he has a prior arrest history?

In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”. We are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information.

What about media reenactments of the shooting incident?

Any media reenactments of the shooting incident are purely speculation. To date the Sanford Police Department has not released any rendition of the events of the evening to anyone other than the Office of the State Attorney. The renditions we have seen are not consistent with the evidence in this case.

The Sanford Police Department has conducted a complete and fair investigation of this incident. We have provided the results of our investigation to the Office of the State Attorney for their review and consideration for possible criminal prosecution.

Although the Police Department is the target of the troubling questions, let me assure you we too feel the pain of this senseless tragedy that has dramatically affected our community. Therefore, as we move forward and strive to answer the questions that are a point of controversy in the community, we ask for your patience, understanding and assistance in getting the correct information to the community

We trust that this information is helpful to you. Norton N. Bonaparte, Jr., ICMA-CM City Manager

March 23, 2012

[Wild Cobra]

We shouldn't forget that the community is agitated already. Eight reported incidents of burglary from 12/9/11 to 2/6/12. How many went unreported? No wonder Zimmerman was following someone he didn't recognize.

Burglary Reports (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/BurglaryReports.pdf)

[Creepn]

You disgust me Wild Cobra. You try to tell us not to be so gullible but yet you believe every word the criminal says just because you want to argue. The guy can say anything to get himself off because of the limitations of the witnesses. Team Zimmerman ALREADY lied a few times and got caught on it when other evidence didn't match up.

[Wild Cobra]

I looked at in with Google Maps.

The area is long and narrow.
What was your search entry?
I was wrong about this. I took an earlier incident off the police reports. It appears Zimmereman lived at least three different places over this 8 years. Here is the correct area (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.792343,-81.330113&spn=0.004259,0.008256&gl=us&t=h&z=18):

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/satellite%20view/MartinZimmermanincident.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

You disgust me Wild Cobra. You try to tell us not to be so gullible but yet you believe every word the criminal says just because you want to argue. The guy can say anything to get himself off because of the limitations of the witnesses. Team Zimmerman ALREADY lied a few times and got caught on it when other evidence didn't match up.
What about the eye witness that says Martin was on top of Zimmereman beating him, with Zimmeramn yelling for help, until he pulled out his gun and shot him?

Don't call me gullible. I am simply waiting for something of more substance. If this witness is honest, then Martin deserved what he got.

From an earlier linked story:


“The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help, help.’ I told him to stop, I was calling 911,” John told the TV station. Zimmerman was wearing red.

“When I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was laying in the grass. And I believe he was dead at that point,” the eyewitness claimed.

[Creepn]

What about the eye witness that says Martin was on top of Zimmereman beating him, with Zimmeramn yelling for help, until he pulled out his gun and shot him?

Don't call me gullible. I am simply waiting for something of more substance. If this witness is honest, then Martin deserved what he got.

From an earlier linked story:

I see how you conveniently dismissed the girl's testimony when she was on the phone talking to him right when it happened. Trayvon asked him "Why are you following me?" Then came the scuffle and phone disconnected. How in the hell did Trayvon get the jump on him? More like Zimmerman got the jump on him.

[Wild Cobra]

I see how you conveniently dismissed the girl's testimony when she was on the phone talking to him right when it happened. Trayvon asked him "Why are you following me?" Then came the scuffle and phone disconnected. How in the hell did Trayvon get the jump on him? More like Zimmerman got the jump on him.
That is meaningless. Assuming her words are accurate, it doesn't indicate who attacked who. She was on the phone, and can only assume what happened. John on the other hand saw who was getting beaten.

[DarrinS]

What the media shows you.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_ht_trayvon_martin_george_zimmerman_2_jt_120318 _wg.jpg



What the media doesn't show you.

http://i.imgur.com/efT0w.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Martin isn't in a mugshot.

You fail at bias.

[ChumpDumper]

The kid flipped off a camera!

He deserved to die!

[DisAsTerBot]

Martin isn't in a mugshot.

You fail at bias.

"mugshot looking"

reading fail

[DarrinS]

Zimmerman's friend interviewed on GMA

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/trayvon-martin-shooting-geroge-zimmerman-legal-advisor-joe-oliver-interview-us-15997138

[DarrinS]

The kid flipped off a camera!

He deserved to die!


Didn't deserve to die. Didn't die because he was black.

[ChumpDumper]

"mugshot looking"

reading failSo it isn't county orange?

Wardrobe fail.

[ChumpDumper]

Didn't deserve to die. Didn't die because he was black.But it's important to you that he look as bad as possible as a black youth.

[ChumpDumper]

The smiling pic of Zimmerman is actually scarier tbh.

[DarrinS]

But it's important to you that he look as bad as possible as a black youth.


Just pointing out how the media manipulates the story.

[DisAsTerBot]

So it isn't county orange?

Wardrobe fail.

it isn't county orange. It's "county orange"

[DisAsTerBot]

The smiling pic of Zimmerman is actually scarier tbh.

lol grasping

[ChumpDumper]

Just pointing out how the media manipulates the story.Yeah, that's a load of shit.

I doubt they had hundreds of photos to choose from at press time.

lol county orange

[ChumpDumper]

it isn't county orange. It's "county orange"Right. The media is responsible for his wardrobe choices.

lol grasping

[ChumpDumper]

lol graspinglol deserved to die

[DarrinS]

Yeah, that's a load of shit.

I doubt they had hundreds of photos to choose from at press time.

lol county orange


Yeah, Facebook is hard.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, Facebook is hard.lol you're a reporter too

[ChumpDumper]

Look, I know you are falling all over yourselves to protect Dirty Harry here. It's just kind of pathetic for you to blame the victim, no matter what his race or middle finger usage.

[clambake]

it just occurred to me that darrin and yoni buy gas from the same station.

[DarrinS]

Look, I know you are falling all over yourselves to protect Dirty Harry here. It's just kind of pathetic for you to blame the victim, no matter what his race or middle finger usage.


If Florida has a law that says you can shoot someone if you're getting your ass kicked, then they should change their law.

[ChumpDumper]

If Florida has a law that says you can shoot someone if you're getting your ass kicked, then they should change their law.“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance. Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”

-- Jeb Bush, who signed the "Black people scare Darrin" bill into law

[boutons_deux]

"you can shoot someone if you're getting your ass kicked"

the fat, vigilante, murderous shooter provoked the little black's "stand your ground" ass beating to being stalked, confronted, and very probably threatened.

[cheguevara]

:lol ppl thinking they know what happened that night

:lol forgetting courts work on physical evidence

90% chance dude will get manslaugher

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol ppl thinking they know what happened that night

:lol forgetting courts work on physical evidence

90% chance dude will get manslaugher

I wouldn't be so sure if I were you.

I wouldn't be surprised to see no state murder/manslaughter conviction and then the Feds to follow up with a civil rights violation case against him.

[Bill_Brasky]

What the media shows you.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_ht_trayvon_martin_george_zimmerman_2_jt_120318 _wg.jpg



What the media doesn't show you.

http://i.imgur.com/efT0w.jpg

Really?

Are you that easily distracted, stupid, or a murderer lover? It's one of the three.

Would you let this Zimmerman person around your children?

[101A]

I wouldn't be so sure if I were you.

I wouldn't be surprised to see no state murder/manslaughter conviction and then the Feds to follow up with a civil rights violation case against him.

This.

Whatever happened that night is now meaningless. Whether the guy was getting his ass beat or not. This is now a civil rights issue; there will be (his) pound of flesh taken. No one on this board knows what happened that night; but you have successfully divided your opinions distinctly down predictable lines. Congratulations. I would like justice to be served one way or the other; and in this country that is supposed to be derived from the evidence available. Innocent until proven guilty - right? Fuck that. "Trayvon didn't get a trial". Yeah, neither does any other victim of murder - that's why it's a crime. IF it's a crime.

I feel sorry for everyone involved EXCEPT the politicians/media hogs and anyone else who has jumped to a conclusion as to WHAT happened that night.

Now, the only thing I know for sure is that we are going to find out more about these two people's pasts than I want to know. Hell, if any one of us was subject to such scrutiny, we'd ALL look like absolute assholes. Well, maybe Trayvon's history is a little protected because he was a juvenile; but I doubt it - it's all gonna get aired.

Tragic. Sad and stupid.

[DarrinS]

Really?

Are you that easily distracted, stupid, or a murderer lover? It's one of the three.



lol

[Creepn]

That is meaningless. Assuming her words are accurate, it doesn't indicate who attacked who. She was on the phone, and can only assume what happened. John on the other hand saw who was getting beaten.

John the witness didn't indicate who struck the first blow either. Just because someone was on top of somebody doesn't mean the person was the aggressor. Could mean that the victim overpowered the aggressor.

[Spurminator]

What the media doesn't show you.

http://i.imgur.com/efT0w.jpg


:cry:cry:cry:cry

"If only more people could see that Trayvon took thuggy pictures too."

[boutons_deux]

Trayvon Martin case: Martin was the aggressor, police sources say

Zimmerman was heading to the grocery store when he spotted Martin and called police to report a black youth acting suspiciously, possibly on drugs.

Zimmerman stepped out of his SUV to follow Martin, even though a police dispatcher told him he didn't need to do so.

Zimmerman told police he he'd lost sight of Martin and was heading back to his car when the youth suddenly stepped into his path. According to the Sentinel, Martin asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cellphone. Martin then said something like, "Well, you do now" and punched him, according to the Sentinel's sources.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,4845076.story

========

yep, Martin was being followed, very probably felt "threatened", so FL "Stand Your Ground" law backs up Martin to beat the shit out of the wanna-be cop vigilante.

[ChumpDumper]

Looks like he weighed about 130. Darrin and Yoni are probably still shitting their pants from the sight of that hooligan.

[CosmicCowboy]

Trayvon Martin case: Martin was the aggressor, police sources say

Zimmerman was heading to the grocery store when he spotted Martin and called police to report a black youth acting suspiciously, possibly on drugs.

Zimmerman stepped out of his SUV to follow Martin, even though a police dispatcher told him he didn't need to do so.

Zimmerman told police he he'd lost sight of Martin and was heading back to his car when the youth suddenly stepped into his path. According to the Sentinel, Martin asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cellphone. Martin then said something like, "Well, you do now" and punched him, according to the Sentinel's sources.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,4845076.story

========

yep, Martin was being followed, very probably felt "threatened", so FL "Stand Your Ground" law backs up Martin to beat the shit out of the wanna-be cop vigilante.

Yeah, he's dead right. That will teach him to bring skittles to a gunfight.

[Winehole23]

"authorities say (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager)," says the Orlando Sentinel

[boutons_deux]

Apparently "Stand Your Ground" laws, pushed by NRA and ALEC into 20+ states, are really "You White Guys Stand Your Ground" law.

[Creepn]

Trayvon Martin case: Martin was the aggressor, police sources say

Zimmerman was heading to the grocery store when he spotted Martin and called police to report a black youth acting suspiciously, possibly on drugs.

Zimmerman stepped out of his SUV to follow Martin, even though a police dispatcher told him he didn't need to do so.

Zimmerman told police he he'd lost sight of Martin and was heading back to his car when the youth suddenly stepped into his path. According to the Sentinel, Martin asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cellphone. Martin then said something like, "Well, you do now" and punched him, according to the Sentinel's sources.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,4845076.story

========

yep, Martin was being followed, very probably felt "threatened", so FL "Stand Your Ground" law backs up Martin to beat the shit out of the wanna-be cop vigilante.

lmao, I thought the kid jumped on him from behind and cracked him in the back of the head with a can? Now all of the sudden, he jumped in front of him like batman out of nowhere. :rolleyes

[cheguevara]

"Oops" - Obama team who advised him to issue statements on the case

[ChumpDumper]

"Oops" - Obama team who advised him to issue statements on the caseDid you actually read any of his statements in full?

No.

[101A]

Apparently "Stand Your Ground" laws, pushed by NRA and ALEC into 20+ states, are really "You White Guys Stand Your Ground" law.

Zimmerman's Latino

[cheguevara]

Zimmerman's Latino

he's half n half. like obama

Maybe Obama confused the 2 when he was making his comments?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Zimmerman's Latino

Then he'll go to prison

[ElNono]

Zimmerman's Latino

George Zimmerman. His dad's name is Robert Zimmerman.

For a latino family, they sure hate spanish :lol

[Wild Cobra]

George Zimmerman. His dad's name is Robert Zimmerman.

For a latino family, they sure hate spanish :lol
If I recall, his mother is from Peru. Not certain of this, but I think that's the country. I read it someplace, but it wasn't important to me.

[cheguevara]

George Zimmerman. His dad's name is Robert Zimmerman.

For a latino family, they sure hate spanish :lol

so because they gave him an english name in the USA, they hate his mother's tongue?

[boutons_deux]

zimmerman is German, maybe they aspire to White Supremacist Aryanism

[Sec24Row7]

Apparently the thug pics that are widely being circulated are not of THIS Treyvon Martin, but a different one.

[cheguevara]

Apparently the thug pics that are widely being circulated are not of THIS Treyvon Martin, but a different one.

good thing Obama didn't comment on them

[DarrinS]

These should be popular


http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmermanshirt.jpg


And Trayvon's mom recently applied for a trademarks on "Justice for Travyon" and "I am Trayvon".

[Agloco]

I see how you conveniently dismissed the girl's testimony when she was on the phone talking to him right when it happened. Trayvon asked him "Why are you following me?" Then came the scuffle and phone disconnected. How in the hell did Trayvon get the jump on him? More like Zimmerman got the jump on him.


That is meaningless. Assuming her words are accurate, it doesn't indicate who attacked who. She was on the phone, and can only assume what happened. John on the other hand saw who was getting beaten.

I fail to see how that is meaningless. Her story establishes that Martin was suspicious/weary of Z's motives. Combined with the fact that Z had given chase a few minutes earlier, it's quite reasonable that Martin panicked and struck the first blow. The stand your ground law might apply to Martin in that case.

Of course her testimony doesn't indicate who attacked who. Neither does your eye-witness, at least according to what you've posted. He saw a snapshot. We probably will never know who really attacked who first.

[Wild Cobra]

I fail to see how that is meaningless. Her story establishes that Martin was suspicious/weary of Z's motives. Combined with the fact that Z had given chase a few minutes earlier, it's quite reasonable that Martin panicked and struck the first blow. The stand your ground law might apply to Martin in that case.

Of course her testimony doesn't indicate who attacked who. Neither does your eye-witness, at least according to what you've posted. He saw a snapshot. We probably will never know who really attacked who first.
Does anything about the "Stand Your Ground" include beating an opponent who is down on the ground?

Remember, I did point out already that Martin may have thought he was standing his ground. Still, we don't have solid evidence either way, and the police have said the evidence does back up Zimmerman's account.

[Winehole23]

Apparently the thug pics that are widely being circulated are not of THIS Treyvon Martin, but a different one.thoughts, DarrinS?

If true, you've been had and fed us bullshit...

[Wild Cobra]

thoughts, DarrinS?

If true, you've been had and fed us bullshit...
Why are you calling Darrin on BS when there are others you haven't called BS on?

Is your bias showing?

[CosmicCowboy]

I fail to see how that is meaningless. Her story establishes that Martin was suspicious/weary of Z's motives. Combined with the fact that Z had given chase a few minutes earlier, it's quite reasonable that Martin panicked and struck the first blow. The stand your ground law might apply to Martin in that case.

Of course her testimony doesn't indicate who attacked who. Neither does your eye-witness, at least according to what you've posted. He saw a snapshot. We probably will never know who really attacked who first.

:lol

Well, you have certainly modified your position in the last few days...like I said when you were attacking me Friday, I'm going to wait until I get more facts to draw my own conclusion...it appears you are starting to finally do the same.

[boutons_deux]

Does anything about the "Stand Your Ground" include beating an opponent who is down on the ground?

Beat his ass as long as you "feel" he's a threat, cause, if the vigilante stalker got a gun, he'll KILL your ass if you don't keep pounding away.

[Wild Cobra]

Beat his ass as long as you "feel" he's a threat, cause, if the vigilante stalker got a gun, he'll KILL your ass if you don't keep pounding away.
Assuming it happened this way, I doubt Martin knew Zimmereman had a Gun, that Zimmerman was scared shitless, and it took him awhile to regain the composure to pull it.

Just a WAG (wild ass guess). Might be how it went down though.

[Spurminator]

thoughts, DarrinS?

If true, you've been had and fed us bullshit...

All black people look the same, tbh.

[Winehole23]

Why are you calling Darrin on BS when there are others you haven't called BS on?the usual manner is one at a time, and Darrin appears to be full of it, as usual

[Sec24Row7]

With as much pressure that has been put on this police dept to do something...

I am very comfortable postulating that if they could get Zimmerman in jail for ANYTHING... he would be there...

[Spurminator]

These should be popular

And Trayvon's mom recently applied for a trademarks on "Justice for Travyon" and "I am Trayvon".

God damn, you are a crybaby.

[Winehole23]

@WC: I'll call bs on whomever I like, if that's alright with you

[JoeChalupa]

I don't see Zimmerman getting any jail time or being found guilty of murder. Manslaughter perhaps but not murder. It very well could be a case of an error in judgement, from Zimmerman, causing another error in judgement, from Martin, which led to a confrontation and fatal shooting.

[DarrinS]

thoughts, DarrinS?

If true, you've been had and fed us bullshit...


Well, I know he's not 10 years old.

[Agloco]

:lol

Well, you have certainly modified your position in the last few days...like I said when you were attacking me Friday, I'm going to wait until I get more facts to draw my own conclusion...it appears you are starting to finally do the same.

If you look back carefully, that's one of the possibilities I've implied all along: That Martin may have panicked and preempted Z once he was face to face with him. I've stated it explicitly for the first time, but that does not mean that I've modified my position on the matter. fwiw I tend to think that Martin did strike the first blow; I have all along. What I wasn't buying into was the notion that he did so without clear provocation (ie first running, then turning on Z as he was walking back to his car).

Also, I wasn't attacking you. I was pointing out that you were reaching (a la WC) in your post. Perhaps you perceived it as such. Apologies.


I heard the whole tape today in full and was not predisposed to judge one way or the other.

I have to say, I was struck by the long conversation between the dispatcher and the shooter. The dispatcher clearly said "we don't NEED you to follow him". She didn't say DON'T follow him. They then started talking about where he should meet the policeman when he got there and the dispatcher suggested they meet at the mailboxes. From the guys heavy breathing it seemed pretty clear he was still following the kid so he "didn't get away" before the police got there. He then told the dispatcher to just have the policeman call him when he got there and he would tell him where he was and the dispatcher said OK...It seemed almost like an acceptance and approval that he was following the kid. What happened after that is anyones guess at this point.

I certainly don't approve of the shooters behavior but it doesn't seem as clear cut as what I had been led to believe from reports.

You've asked me to engage you in a meaningful dialogue about this matter (albeit underhandedly), and I've done that by pointing out plausible scenarios. Then I get your sarcastic acknowledgement in response.

And you wonder when folks like Manny, Chump or Fuzzy decide to give you nothing but one liners or scathing responses. Frankly, it's hard to not fall into that pattern.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, I know he's not 10 years old.lol Darrin sure ate up white supremacist propaganda eagerly.

[Agloco]

Does anything about the "Stand Your Ground" include beating an opponent who is down on the ground?

Remember, I did point out already that Martin may have thought he was standing his ground. Still, we don't have solid evidence either way, and the police have said the evidence does back up Zimmerman's account.

No clue. I'm not familiar with the nuances of the law. If Martin still feared that Z could get up and do him harm, then yes I suppose. We will never know though.

And yes, the evidence does back up Z's account.....most of it. The portion where Z says Martin confronted him and punched him first is not, and that's the most important part as far as Z's defense goes.

As an aside, Z had better hope that whatever he uttered at the 2:20 mark on that call wasn't racial in nature. It's an entirely different ballgame at that point.

[Agloco]

The Herald is wrong. I downloaded the PDF with the 46 incidents. They start in 2004.


It was a link in an earlier piece of linked material. I'll take a quick look for it, but if I don't find it right away, then you can dog it up yourself as I don't remember which post it was in.

Don't you ever verify what you are told? I almost always do.

I was admittedly lax with my research here. I did however, cross reference 3 sites that had the same information as the one I cited. Apparently there is a lot of misinformation is being floated around out there.

Thanks for the links btw.

EDIT: 46 calls is still a lot IMO, even over an eight year period. I wonder what kind of neighborhoods those are.

[Koolaid_Man]

I didn't know Thugs ate skittles and drank ice tea...that's some trippy shit...my encounters with real thug niggas they were eating hamburgers or chicken and dranking 40's...

[Sec24Row7]

I was admittedly lax with my research here. I did however, cross reference 3 sites that had the same information as the one I cited. Apparently there is a lot of misinformation is being floated around out there.

Thanks for the links btw.

EDIT: 46 calls is still a lot IMO, even over an eight year period. I wonder what kind of neighborhoods those are.


A call every 2 months if you are out patrolling is excessive?

That does't fit the pattern to me of someone who is seeing a bad guy behind every bush...

Don't forget he was calling a non-emergency number... at least when he reported Martin... not 911

[ploto]

Even if Martin threw the first punch, HE is the one "protected" by the Stand Your Ground law. A stranger admitted he was following him, and Zimmerman obviously at some point got out of his car. Martin was justified in defending himself out of fear for this stranger, even if he beat the shit out of him. Zimmerman by following him and getting out of his car started the altercation even if Martin threw the first punch. The 911 calls tell you of the state of mind of Zimmerman as he approached this kid. We know he referred to him as an asshole and possibly even a racial slur.

[Sec24Row7]

Even if Martin threw the first punch, HE is the one "protected" by the Stand Your Ground law. A stranger admitted he was following him, and Zimmerman obviously at some point got out of his car. Martin was justified in defending himself out of fear for this stranger, even if he beat the shit out of him. Zimmerman by following him and getting out of his car started the altercation even if Martin threw the first punch. The 911 calls tell you of the state of mind of Zimmerman as he approached this kid. We know he referred to him as an asshole and possibly even a racial slur.


:bang:lol:rollin

[ploto]

:bang:lol:rollin

That is why I put it in quotes. The law applies to him and not to Zimmerman. Martin was the one justified in standing his ground. He was not obligated to flee. Zimmerman is claiming a right that belonged to Martin and not to him.

If I am walking down the street at night and being followed by a strange man whom I do not know. If he gets out of his car and approaches me at all, I am justified in beating him to a pulp.

[Sec24Row7]

That is why I put it in quotes. The law applies to him and not to Zimmerman. Martin was the one justified in standing his ground. He was not obligated to flee. Zimmerman is claiming a right that belonged to Martin and not to him.

If I am walking down the street at night and being followed by a strange man whom I do not know. If he gets out of his car and approaches me at all, I am justified in beating him to a pulp.

No...

[GSH]

That is why I put it in quotes. The law applies to him and not to Zimmerman. Martin was the one justified in standing his ground. He was not obligated to flee. Zimmerman is claiming a right that belonged to Martin and not to him.

If I am walking down the street at night and being followed by a strange man whom I do not know. If he gets out of his car and approaches me at all, I am justified in beating him to a pulp.


You don't know that. You don't know what did or did not happen. You know the hyperbole and the statements by the family. The rule of law still applies in the country. We deal in facts and evidence, not speculation and rumor. At least we did.

If the evidence shows that the guy did something wrong, he'll pay for it. If there isn't evidence, he will go free. Meanwhile, the New Black Panthers are guilty of conspiracy to commit kidnapping. There's evidence of that, since they've made posters to prove it. If you want justice, let's take care of that while we're at it.

[boutons_deux]

No...

Under "(white boys) Stand Your Ground" laws, you can use lethal force to defend yourself. Beating the shit out of someone stalking you in a car and on foot and confronting you is fully justified.

Or do you think you can only Stand Your Ground with a gun?

[GSH]

A call every 2 months if you are out patrolling is excessive?

That does't fit the pattern to me of someone who is seeing a bad guy behind every bush...

Don't forget he was calling a non-emergency number... at least when he reported Martin... not 911

Forget the argument - it's a non-sequitir. It doesn't matter even if he did make excessive calls. Making calls does not equate to stalking or murder. It's not evidentiary. These people want to convict the man based on rumor and innuendo, so they're talking about shit that doesn't matter.

Of course, they don't want to talk about the reason why the kid got kicked out of school. THAT, they say, is beside the point. But a guy calling the police? They can take that and turn it into murder.

"What makes you think she's a witch?"
"Well she turned me into a newt!"
... "I got better."

[boutons_deux]

The rule of law still applies in the country.

beating the shit out of somebody when you feel threatened IS the law in FL.

[GSH]

beating the shit out of somebody when you feel threatened IS the law in FL.

Weren't you denying that the beating ever happened, just a couple of days ago? You had no evidence, but you insisted it didn't happen.

Now that you can't deny it any more, you move to justifying it. Whatever it takes. You ARE the thing you claim to hate the most. Nothing you'd like more than a good old fashioned lynchin'.

[ChumpDumper]

Meanwhile, the New Black Panthers are guilty of conspiracy to commit kidnapping.:lmao

I seriously think conservatives donate to those two guys just to have a black boogeyman to trot out every few months.

[boutons_deux]

What Everyone Needs To Know About The Smear Campaign Against Trayvon Martin (1995-2012)

um on Mar 26, 2012 at 6:59 pm

Trayvon Martin, as he appeared on his actual Facebook page
Over the last 48 hours, there has been a sustained effort to smear Trayvon Martin, the 17-year old African-American who was shot dead by George Zimmerman a month ago. Martin’s mother, Sybrina Fulton, said, “They killed my son, now they’re trying to kill his reputation.”

Thus far these attacks have fallen into two categories: false and irrelevant. Much of this leaked information seems intended to play into stereotypes about young African-American males. Here’s what everyone should know:

1. Prominent conservative websites published fake photos of Martin. Twitchy, a new website run by prominent conservative blogger Michelle Malkin, promoted a photo — purportedly from Martin’s Facebook page — that shows Martin in saggy pants and flipping the bird. The photo, which spread quickly on conservative websites and Twitter, is intended to paint Martin as a thug. As Twitchy later acknowledged, it is not a photo of Trayvon Martin. [Examiner]

2. The Sanford Police selectively leaked irrelevant, negative information about Martin. The authorities told the Orlando Sentinel this morning that Trayvon was suspended from school for ten days “after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.” There is no evidence that Martin was under the influence of drugs at the time of his death, nor would prior possession of marijuana be a reason for killing him. It’s unclear what the relevance of the leak was, other than to smear Martin. [Orlando Sentinel]

3. On Fox News, Geraldo said that Martin was dressed “like a wannabe gangster.” Bill O’Reilly agreed with him. The sole evidence is that Martin was wearing a hoodie. Geraldo added that “everyone that ever stuck up a convenience store” was wearing a hoodie. [ThinkProgress; The Blaze]

4. Without any evidence, prominent right-wing bloggers suggested that Martin was a drug dealer. Right-wing blogger Dan Riehl advances the theory, also advanced in a widely linked peice on a site called Wagist. There does not appear to be any evidence to support this claim whatsoever. [Riehl World View]

5. Without any evidence, a right-wing columnist alleged that Martin assaulted a bus driver. Unlike Zimmerman, Trayvon has no documented history of violence. This allegation continues to be advanced by a blogger on the Examiner even after the real reason was leaked to the police and confirmed by the family. [Miami Herald; Examiner]

6. Zimmerman’s friend says Martin was to blame because he was disrespectful to Zimmerman. Zimmerman’s friend Joe Oliver said that Martin would not have been shot to death if Trayvon had just said “I’m staying with my parents.” Of course, Zimmerman was not a police officer, and Trayvon had no duty to tell him who he was or where he was going. [NBC News]

The final part of the effort to smear Trayvon Martin is to link him and his supporters to irresponsible fringe groups like the New Black Panthers and marignal provocateurs like Louis Farrakhan. Threats by these groups are serious and should be investigated, but they have nothing to do with Martin or his supporters. The leader of the effort to associate Martin with these groups is Matt Drudge. You can see how he is framing the story today here.

Ultimately, whether Martin was a perfect person is irrelevant to whether Zimmerman’s conduct that night was justified. Clearly, there are two different versions of the events that transpired on February 26, the night Trayvon was killed. There are conflicting statements by witnesses and conflicting evidence as to who was the aggressor. Zimmerman has the right to tell his side of the story. But his opportunity to do this will come in a court of law after he is charged and arrested. In the meantime, Zimmerman’s supporters should stop trying to smear the reputation of a dead, 17-year-old boy.

=========

Like raped women, Martin "asked for it" by being black, wearing a hoodie, and walking around.

[spursncowboys]

from my understanding the FL law is similar to the one in TX. Where you use the amount of force that a reasonable person would use to get away, exception if it is at a persons house and then the castle clause comes into place.

[ChumpDumper]

Is stalking with a gun legal in Florida?

[boutons_deux]

Weren't you denying that the beating ever happened, just a couple of days ago? You had no evidence, but you insisted it didn't happen.

Now that you can't deny it any more, you move to justifying it. Whatever it takes. You ARE the thing you claim to hate the most. Nothing you'd like more than a good old fashioned lynchin'.

I saw the initial reports of Z being bloodied and beat up, so I didn't deny anything.

_I'm_ not justifiying anything.

It's the Stand Your Ground FL law that justifies beating the shit out of/killing some if you feel threatened.

[Stringer_Bell]

beating the shit out of somebody when you feel threatened IS the law in FL.

Fuck yo law, mayne

hmmm, posted a pic to go along with my comment but it felt immediately wrong so taking it down.

[GSH]

I saw the initial reports of Z being bloodied and beat up, so I didn't deny anything.

_I'm_ not justifiying anything.

It's the Stand Your Ground FL law that justifies beating the shit out of/killing some if you feel threatened.


That's why you should read something other than Alternet and Huffington. You read a lot of words, but you don't know shit.

The law says you can use deadly force if you believe you are in imminent danger of death or severe injury. Do you have evidence that Zimmerman threatened Trayvon with death or physical injury? If you have some evidence, then I'm with you. If you don't have evidence, then you're just lining up for the lynch mob.

I'm not saying Zimmerman is innocent - never have. I'm saying I don't know, and you don't know. I say look at the evidence, and THEN decide. You say decide what must have happened without seeing the evidence. Now... which approach is just, and which is ignorance?

And what do you use to determine guilt, without actually having evidence? The fact that one person was black and one was white. No matter how often you scream about justice, Boutons, YOU are the racist.

If Zimmerman stalked and killed that kid, I say fry him. Hell, stand him up and let his relatives be the firing squad. But I don't jump to conclusions of guilt without getting answers to the relevant questions. If you ever get in trouble, you better hope you have 12 people like me on the jury.

[boutons_deux]

"Zimmerman threatened Trayvon with death or physical injury"

The Stand Your Ground laws don't say you need some form of official, verbal threat, you just need to feel you are threatened.

A 140 pounder, a black who could have been harassed by whites earlier, being driven after, stalked, confronted by a 240 pounder, would seem to be enough of imagined/felt threat to Stand Your Ground in FL.

[InRareForm]

Was he a Drug Dealer/Gang banger?

http://patdollard.com/2012/03/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealing-gangbanger/

[jack sommerset]

Is stalking with a gun legal in Florida?

I think a better question would be "should you bring skittles to a gun fight?" God bless and I did include you in my prayer a few days ago.

[Winehole23]

echo in here?

[GSH]

"Zimmerman threatened Trayvon with death or physical injury"

The Stand Your Ground laws don't say you need some form of official, verbal threat, you just need to feel you are threatened.

A 140 pounder, a black who could have been harassed by whites earlier, being driven after, stalked, confronted by a 240 pounder, would seem to be enough of imagined/felt threat to Stand Your Ground in FL.

The Florida Law says that deadly force may be justified if:
He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony


If someone asks you why you are in the neighborhood, it's not reasonable to assume that they intend to kill or beat you. If someone is wearing a hoodie, it's not reasonable to assume that they intend to kill or beat you.

If someone much larger than yourself threatens to beat or kill you, or actually attacks you, you may be in the neighborhood of justification. If someone much larger than you attacks you, and succeeds in beating the crap out of you, it probably qualifies as "great bodily harm".

One more thing the law says: If you actually provoke another person until they use force against you, you are not entitled to the "stand your ground" defense. BUT... if the person keeps beating you, and you try every way you can to retreat, and indicate to your attacker that you wish to withdraw, you are justified in using deadly force.

In other words, even if another person may be justified in taking a swing at you, he isn't entitled to pound you into a pulp once you are down. If you try and get away, and he just keeps beating you, you are justified in doing whatever you have to do, to save yourself. It's not really so outrageous, when you understand what the law was written for.

I don't know if any of those things happened. But until we know the facts, you can't conclude that Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Well... you could conclude that, but it would be an ignorant thing to do.

[GSH]

"Zimmerman threatened Trayvon with death or physical injury"

The Stand Your Ground laws don't say you need some form of official, verbal threat, you just need to feel you are threatened.

A 140 pounder, a black who could have been harassed by whites earlier, being driven after, stalked, confronted by a 240 pounder, would seem to be enough of imagined/felt threat to Stand Your Ground in FL.


And, since you seem unwilling or incapable of getting to the root of the problem - standing your ground is not the same thing as initiating an attack. If Trayvon had been harassed by whites earlier (as you so entertainingly made up), it would not equate to Zimmerman attacking him.

If Zimmerman gave Trayvon some reason to believe that he was about to be attacked - that's a different story. Again - do you have ANY evidence that happened? The law doesn't say an imagined threat. It says that someone has to reasonably believe that they are in danger of being killed or seriously injured. You can't just make shit up like "imagined/felt threat".

Was it reasonable for Trayvon to believe he was going to be killed or beaten? That's why we have juries, who look at evidence. We don't decide guilt based on the crap you read on Huffington.

And, once again, if you ever get into trouble you better hope you have 12 people like me on the jury, and not 12 people like you.

[Koolaid_Man]

That's why you should read something other than Alternet and Huffington. You read a lot of words, but you don't know shit.

The law says you can use deadly force if you believe you are in imminent danger of death or severe injury. Do you have evidence that Zimmerman threatened Trayvon with death or physical injury? If you have some evidence, then I'm with you. If you don't have evidence, then you're just lining up for the lynch mob.

I'm not saying Zimmerman is innocent - never have. I'm saying I don't know, and you don't know. I say look at the evidence, and THEN decide. You say decide what must have happened without seeing the evidence. Now... which approach is just, and which is ignorance?

And what do you use to determine guilt, without actually having evidence? The fact that one person was black and one was white. No matter how often you scream about justice, Boutons, YOU are the racist.

If Zimmerman stalked and killed that kid, I say fry him. Hell, stand him up and let his relatives be the firing squad. But I don't jump to conclusions of guilt without getting answers to the relevant questions. If you ever get in trouble, you better hope you have 12 people like me on the jury.

screw you and the jury...I'm busting shots first..that fat fuck got lucky he ran up on an unarmed kid...he'd be pumped full of nasty shit had he run up on Kool...

[GSH]

screw you and the jury...I'm busting shots first..that fat fuck got lucky he ran up on an unarmed kid...he'd be pumped full of nasty shit had he run up on Kool...


Absolute proof that Darwin was correct.

I rest my case.

[ploto]

No...
Yes. As a female in Florida, I have a right to feel threatened by serious injury by ANY strange man who follows me at night, gets out of his car, and approaches me. I am still in danger until I beat the crap out of him.

[Agloco]

A call every 2 months if you are out patrolling is excessive?

That does't fit the pattern to me of someone who is seeing a bad guy behind every bush...

Don't forget he was calling a non-emergency number... at least when he reported Martin... not 911

I stated that it was "a lot". Excessive? One can only figure that based on the kind of neighborhood he lived in. Hence my question.

[Creepn]

The Florida Law says that deadly force may be justified if:
He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony


If someone asks you why you are in the neighborhood, it's not reasonable to assume that they intend to kill or beat you. If someone is wearing a hoodie, it's not reasonable to assume that they intend to kill or beat you.

If someone much larger than yourself threatens to beat or kill you, or actually attacks you, you may be in the neighborhood of justification. If someone much larger than you attacks you, and succeeds in beating the crap out of you, it probably qualifies as "great bodily harm".

One more thing the law says: If you actually provoke another person until they use force against you, you are not entitled to the "stand your ground" defense. BUT... if the person keeps beating you, and you try every way you can to retreat, and indicate to your attacker that you wish to withdraw, you are justified in using deadly force.

In other words, even if another person may be justified in taking a swing at you, he isn't entitled to pound you into a pulp once you are down. If you try and get away, and he just keeps beating you, you are justified in doing whatever you have to do, to save yourself. It's not really so outrageous, when you understand what the law was written for.

I don't know if any of those things happened. But until we know the facts, you can't conclude that Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Well... you could conclude that, but it would be an ignorant thing to do.

Why don't you post the law instead of giving us your own interpretation so we can judge for ourselves?

[Agloco]

If someone asks you why you are in the neighborhood, it's not reasonable to assume that they intend to kill or beat you. If someone is wearing a hoodie, it's not reasonable to assume that they intend to kill or beat you.

What if the inquiry occurs after this someone gets out of their car and has pursued you down the street?

[GSH]

What if the inquiry occurs after this someone gets out of their car and has pursued you down the street?

It could be a problem.

Look, I never said Zimmerman was innocent. I said I don't know what happened. If I had to judge by looking at photos, I'd say the guy looks like some wanna-be cop, who might do something like he's being accused of. Unfortunately, that's exactly what a bunch of people have done. Kind of ironic that it's exactly what they claim Zimmerman did, isn't it?

Now let me ask you a question. Do you really believe that the fat-ass 5'2", 240 lb. wanna-be cop pursued the young, 6'3", football star down the street and actually caught him? Can't you see that as a potential hole in the story we're being told?

I'll tell you my opinion. There's no way in hell Zimmerman ran down Trayvon, if Trayvon was trying to run away from him. Something else happened, besides what we're hearing in the news. I don't pretend to know how it went down, but when I was 17, there's no way that little lard-ass would have been able to run me down - especially if I was seriously scared for whatever reason. And nobody claims that Zimmerman shot him from behind, or from a distance.

So tell me. Should you already have your mind made up, and start tying the noose? Or should you be looking for explanations?

[GSH]

Why don't you post the law instead of giving us your own interpretation so we can judge for ourselves?

Why don't you learn to read for yourself, you lazy fuck? If you read it, and think I misinterpreted it, then come back and tell me why.

But, since you don't want to be bothered doing that, maybe I should tell you that this portion of what I said:

...reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony

was a cut-and-paste from the Florida Penal Code. Now you've got what you wanted, so feel free to offer your own interpretation.

[Creepn]

Why don't you learn to read for yourself, you lazy fuck? If you read it, and think I misinterpreted it, then come back and tell me why.

But, since you don't want to be bothered doing that, maybe I should tell you that this portion of what I said:

...reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony

was a cut-and-paste from the Florida Penal Code. Now you've got what you wanted, so feel free to offer your own interpretation.

You didn't even indicate that it was cut and paste. Why didn't you just highlight the link, copy and paste it anyway? The fact that you couldn't (or wouldn't?) do a 5 second action makes it suspicious. Just saying.

[GSH]

You didn't even indicate that it was cut and paste. Why didn't you just highlight the link, copy and paste it anyway? The fact that you couldn't (or wouldn't?) do a 5 second action makes it suspicious. Just saying.

The fact that you couldn't (or wouldn't) take my word for it, or look it up for yourself makes me suspicious. If you really believe in something strongly, why not take a few seconds to learn some of the facts? Are you afraid that the truth of the law might make it difficult to keep believing the way you do?

Just saying.

[spursncowboys]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1531340800001/trayvon-martin-case-secret-witness-for-self-defense-claim/?playlist_id=86856

[Creepn]

The fact that you couldn't (or wouldn't) take my word for it, or look it up for yourself makes me suspicious. If you really believe in something strongly, why not take a few seconds to learn some of the facts? Are you afraid that the truth of the law might make it difficult to keep believing the way you do?

Just saying.

How can you say I'm afraid if I'm the one asking you to post the damn link to the actual law!? You already have the web address and wanted to break down the law so why should I have to do the heavy work for something you started?

Ridiculous. Common courtesy gone out the window these days!

[GSH]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1531340800001/trayvon-martin-case-secret-witness-for-self-defense-claim/?playlist_id=86856

It won't matter. Truth, facts, evidence. None of that matters. And since it came from Fox, they can immediately dismiss it, without even having to think. Sort of a favored pastime for the moonbats, that not-thinking thing.

Boutons said in a fairly recent thread that it doesn't matter if a story is true or not, as long as it accomplishes a worthy goal. The most dangerous thing I can think of is a zealot who believes that anything and everything is okay, as long as he has "right" on his side. And, of course, they always define "right" as whatever they believe.

[Agitator]

.foxnews.com

bla bla bla, fox news told me what to think today, bla bla bla :sleep

[GSH]

How can you say I'm afraid if I'm the one asking you to post the damn link to the actual law!? You already have the web address and wanted to break down the law so why should I have to do the heavy work for something you started?

Ridiculous. Common courtesy gone out the window these days!


Common courtesy? You mean like deciding a man is guilty of murder, without bothering to learn facts? You mean like putting a $10K bounty on his head? Common courtesy went out the window a long time ago. Go back and read your first post to me. You started with an attack. You might find that when you talk to people respectfully, you're more likely to get it back.

Why should you have to do the heavy work? :lol You mean learning something on your own? I don't know. That really does seem harsh, doesn't it?

[GSH]

It won't matter. Truth, facts, evidence. None of that matters. And since it came from Fox, they can immediately dismiss it, without even having to think. Sort of a favored pastime for the moonbats, that not-thinking thing.




bla bla bla, fox news told me what to think today, bla bla bla :sleep

Right
On
Schedule

[Creepn]

Common courtesy? You mean like deciding a man is guilty of murder, without bothering to learn facts? You mean like putting a $10K bounty on his head? Common courtesy went out the window a long time ago. Go back and read your first post to me. You started with an attack. You might find that when you talk to people respectfully, you're more likely to get it back.

Why should you have to do the heavy work? :lol You mean learning something on your own? I don't know. That really does seem harsh, doesn't it?

lol I didn't attack you. I simply made a request. Your ass would've shot me. You was the one that started cursing at me and calling me names.

Posting a link is simply backing up your claims and opinions to make yourself credible. It also ensures that we are talking about the same thing. Who knows, I could've looked up the wrong law or maybe you did.

[jack sommerset]

"They killed my son, and now they are trying to kill his reputation," Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon's mother, said, holding back tears.

Using "they" is very troubling. They have everyone's attention, lets not go there with a conspiracy theroy. God bless.

[GSH]

lol I didn't attack you. I simply made a request. Your ass would've shot me. You was the one that started cursing at me and calling me names.

Posting a link is simply backing up your claims and opinions to make yourself credible. It also ensures that we are talking about the same thing. Who knows, I could've looked up the wrong law or maybe you did.


Really. That's what you simply did? Then why didn't you demand that Boutons post a link to the law, since he said this right above?




The Stand Your Ground laws don't say you need some form of official, verbal threat, you just need to feel you are threatened.




Huh? Why didn't you challenge that? (My post was a reply to Boutons' to begin with.) I'll tell you why. You want to believe that Zimmerman is guilty of murder, without even knowing the facts. You didn't have any problem with what Boutons said, because it confirms your insular reality. You didn't like what I said, so you sniped about me not posting a link to the law, and you got slapped down for it. Don't bring that weak-assed stuff and expect to be taken seriously. You weren't "simply making a request", you were jamming what you thought was my interpretation.

Now I'll curse at you again. Look it up for yourself, you lazy fuck. That's what Google is for. But if you do that, then you won't be able to accept the ridiculous interpretations by people like Boutons, or MSNBC, will you?

BTW - you do realize that if you really cared what the law said, you could have looked it up by now? This is potentially a major social issue in our country. It's worth a few minutes of my time to try and learn as much about it as I can. How about yours?

[Creepn]

Actually, I didn't read that statement from boutons so your whole tirade goes out the window.

It's still a request no matter what my intentions were. If you were so conceeeeerned about folks being educated about the law, you would've took the extra 5 seconds to cut and paste the real thing. Your actions does not back up this concern of yours.

[Creepn]

Florida's law on Crimes:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776ContentsIndex.html&StatuteYear=2011&Title=-%3E2011-%3EChapter%20776

[Creepn]

Well well, (straight copy and paste)

The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:

(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or

Stalking is illegal.

OOH WELL WELL,

The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force,

Trayvon wasn't doing anything illegal now was he? He had a right to be there as well. Hmmm...

[Jacob1983]

So what's the deal? Was the victim actually an innocent victim or did he basically in a way cause the suspect to shoot him since there is evidence that he whooped the suspect's ass?

[Wild Cobra]

the usual manner is one at a time, and Darrin appears to be full of it, as usual
Regardless...

I actually consider you one of the more fair minded people here, but you're letting me down by you lack of consistency there.

[Wild Cobra]

I didn't know Thugs ate skittles and drank ice tea...that's some trippy shit...my encounters with real thug niggas they were eating hamburgers or chicken and dranking 40's...

wWdQnp56cK4

[Wild Cobra]

EDIT: 46 calls is still a lot IMO, even over an eight year period. I wonder what kind of neighborhoods those are.
Normally I would agree, except most were under his role of taking active interest and watching out for the communities he lived in. I have probably called 911 and non emergency police an average of once a year, and I'm not looking for anything.

[Wild Cobra]

A 140 pounder, a black who could have been harassed by whites earlier, being driven after, stalked, confronted by a 240 pounder, would seem to be enough of imagined/felt threat to Stand Your Ground in FL.
That 140 number is another one that The Herald has propagated as misinformation. Look at any photo of Trayvon that shows his torso. No way he was 6' 3" and only 140 lbs. I was skinnier than that at his age, 6' 0" and 150 lbs. One report I saw had him at 160 lbs, but I'll bet since he was 6' 3" that he was close to 170.

[Wild Cobra]

Boutons...

Also remember, he was athletic and young. Zimmerman wasn't taking care of his body. Can you really see Zimmerman having any advantage on the kid?

[ChumpDumper]

I think a better question would be "should you bring skittles to a gun fight?"No, that question isn't as good.
God bless and I did include you in my prayer a few days ago.The demons inside you invalidate your prayers.

[ChumpDumper]

Boutons...

Also remember, he was athletic and young. Zimmerman wasn't taking care of his body. Can you really see Zimmerman having any advantage on the kid?A fucking gun.

[Wild Cobra]

A fucking gun.
Well, obviously Zimmerman wasn't prepared to use it when the fighting starting. I think it's a good guess to believe that Martin starting the fight, thinking he had the advantage.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, obviously Zimmerman wasn't prepared to use it when the fighting starting. I think it's a good guess to believe that Martin starting the fight, thinking he had the advantage.I understand you want desperately to be an apologist for Dirty Harry. that bitch killed an innocent kid and you are trying to make excuses for him.

It's pathetic.

[Wild Cobra]

I understand you want desperately to be an apologist for Dirty Harry. that bitch killed an innocent kid and you are trying to make excuses for him.

It's pathetic.
believe as you want. Still, as someone pointed out earlier, there is so much pressure for the police to arrest Zimmerman, that you can bet they would if they had even a very shaky case against him.

Sorry, but as time go forward, I am starting to believe Zimmerman. Still... for you to call me an apologist is rather unintellectual of you.

You're losing it Chump.

[ChumpDumper]

believe as you want. Still, as someone pointed out earlier, there is so much pressure for the police to arrest Zimmerman, that you can bet they would if they had even a very shaky case against him.It would be only logical to have arrested him that night -- because, you know, he killed an unarmed kid he had been stalking. Then let a grand jury do its work and decide whether to indict the guy.


Sorry, but as time go forward, I am starting to believe Zimmerman. Still... for you to call me an apologist is rather unintellectual of you.You started out believing Zimmerman because of your bias, and you have worked really hard to confirm your bias.


You're losing it Chump.Flaglot.

[Wild Cobra]

Flaglot.

Yep, you're definitely losing it.

[ChumpDumper]

Yep, you're definitely losing it.Do you not get the reference?

Do you need to have it explained to you?

[ElNono]

I think mostly all can agree that "reasonable suspicion" is a very, very vague standard, especially when it's left to the interpretation of the general population.

I don't know what happened in this case, or if we'll ever know. But what I get out of it is that there's no place for such vague wording in laws that deal with life and death. It's truly a testament to the reactionary, knee-jerk political climate we live in.

[Wild Cobra]

Do you not get the reference?

Do you need to have it explained to you?
I guess you think it has a longer half-life than most people.

[ChumpDumper]

I guess you think it has a longer half-life than most people.Not really. I'm sure many here know exactly what it means and are reminded of the entertainment your own stalking provided us.

[Creepn]

"Learn when to shut up! There are certain things you cannot defend. Not only that, it shreds your credibility because when you don't know how to shut up and you try to defend the indefensible, when the moment comes when there is something viable to defend, nobody wants to hear you because you were blowing smoke into the wind."

- Steven A. Smith

Great quote. He wasn't taking about the Trayvon case but I thought it applies well with the idiots of this thread.

[LnGrrrR]

If Florida has a law that says you can shoot someone if you're getting your ass kicked, then they should change their law.

Agreed.



“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance. Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”

-- Jeb Bush, who signed the "Black people scare Darrin" bill into law

It looks like to (uneducated) me like Jeb is wrong though, and this is exactly what the law does allow for.

[LnGrrrR]

George Zimmerman. His dad's name is Robert Zimmerman.

For a latino family, they sure hate spanish :lol

Eh, my kids are named Jacob and Devin, which isn't very Latino either :)

[Winehole23]

Regardless...

I actually consider you one of the more fair minded people here, but you're letting me down by you lack of consistency there.me picking on Darrin shows a lack of consistency? I would say just the opposite...

[Winehole23]

With a single punch, Trayvon Martin (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/PEOCVC000188.topic) decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.

Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened Feb. 26. But that night, and in later meetings, he described and re-enacted for police what he says took place.

In his version of events, Zimmerman had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words and then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

Police have been reluctant to provide details about their evidence.

But after the Sentinel story appeared online Monday morning, City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. issued a news release, saying there would be an internal-affairs investigation into the source of the leak and, if identified, the person or people involved would be disciplined.

He did not challenge the accuracy of the information.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

[boutons_deux]

140 lb, on-foot Martin was just Standing His Ground against a 240 lb stalker/agressor/confrontor.

To start this business with Martin on top of and beating the greasy frijoles out of the b3@ner is of course profoundly dishonest, but that's how the right-wing rolls.

[Winehole23]

b3@ner smack? that just how boutons rolls...

[Fabbs]

Mother Seeks Trayvon Martin Trademarks

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123

[diego]

if the police had arrested zimmerman and conducted the appropriate investigation / tests immediately, this would not have become the shitstorm that it has. Even with the stand your ground law (which I dont agree with at all, like Nono says you cant have such a vaguely worded law period, especially not when it pertains to life/death scenarios), there should have been an investigation to determine what actually happened.

Since there wasnt, the only facts that people have are that a grown man shot and killed an unarmed minor, and that grown man did not get arrested, interrogated or investigated by the police. The fact that some people aren't scandalized by that either indicates 1) they have no children or common sense 2) They believe zimmerman's version of the story despite no police investigation to corroborate it.

Add the vigilante angle, and I dont see how zimmerman and/or the local police will be able to stick to their original story of self defense. IMO, at this point the question is if they go down together or if one can lay it off on the other.

[cheguevara]

140 lb, on-foot Martin was just Standing His Ground against a 240 lb stalker/agressor/confrontor.

To start this business with Martin on top of and beating the greasy frijoles out of the b3@ner is of course profoundly dishonest, but that's how the right-wing rolls.

wow boutons racist true colors are showing up

btw, when are you scheduled to make an appearance in court as an eyewitness?

[cheguevara]

if the police had arrested zimmerman and conducted the appropriate investigation / tests immediately, this would not have become the shitstorm that it has. Even with the stand your ground law (which I dont agree with at all, like Nono says you cant have such a vaguely worded law period, especially not when it pertains to life/death scenarios), there should have been an investigation to determine what actually happened.

Since there wasnt, the only facts that people have are that a grown man shot and killed an unarmed minor, and that grown man did not get arrested, interrogated or investigated by the police. The fact that some people aren't scandalized by that either indicates 1) they have no children or common sense 2) They believe zimmerman's version of the story despite no police investigation to corroborate it.

Add the vigilante angle, and I dont see how zimmerman and/or the local police will be able to stick to their original story of self defense. IMO, at this point the question is if they go down together or if one can lay it off on the other.

don't forget the media and politician circus have turned the police investigation fuckup into a hate crime :lol

[cheguevara]

1ZhljU6vioM

:lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

Long article. Trayvon also allegedly suspended from school another time for having a burglary tool and women's jewelry in his backpack.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-school-having-burglary-tool.html

[Winehole23]

beg pardon, but so what?

[jack sommerset]

beg pardon, but so what?

My Brother, the wheels are off. We heard about Zimmerman and his not so flattering background and now it's martins turn. Watch that black panther video. Sharpton and Jackson are involved now, the mother is attempting to trademark her son, Obama weighed in, this thing is out of control and people are raising the bar everyday without blinking. God bless.

[Winehole23]

My Brother, the wheels are off. We heard about Zimmerman and his not so flattering background and now it's martins turn. Did Trayvon Martin shoot anyone?

understand the tit for tat nature of public ciontroversies, but the intended thrust of my question was: how is Trayvon Martin's background relevant to him getting shot, or to Zimmerman shooting him?

[TeyshaBlue]

Did Trayvon Martin shoot anyone?

understand the tit for tat nature of public ciontroversies, but the intended thrust of my question was: how is Trayvon Martin's background relevant to him getting shot, or to Zimmerman shooting him?

It's not. It might be if there was something really egregious there and Zimmerman had foreknowledge of that, but that's the only possible scenario that I can see where that would be relevant.

[boutons_deux]

Martin's school history is irrelevant, and he has no assaulting-police, mug shots, or arrest history, like Z does, all of which is relevant to understanding Z's self-annointed vigilante crusading against "young black males" that his friends say he is obsessed with.

[elbamba]

Martin's past does not have any relevance to the events that happened the night he was shot. Zimmerman had no knowledge of Martin and his suspensions. This is simply the more conservative media reversing the liberal media's tactics in this case by trying to sway the public who have very little patience for facts and due process.

After reading what I can find on the case, if the police reports are found to be true, there was no reason to arrest Zimmerman. The Florida law is clear that if a shooter alleges self-defense and the theory of self defense is supported by a witness, the police cannot, without probable cause to doubt the witness or facts surrouding self defense, arrest the shooter.

It appears from the police report that Zimmerman did nothing illegal. Having said that, this does not mean that Florida should not revisit their stand your ground law.

[coyotes_geek]

It's not. It might be if there was something really egregious there and Zimmerman had foreknowledge of that, but that's the only possible scenario that I can see where that would be relevant.

TBH I don't think it would be relevant even then. I certainly don't see Zimmerman having foreknowledge affecting what he did. He pretty much assumed Treyvon was a miscreant from the beginning.

[elbamba]

Martin's school history is irrelevant, and he has no assaulting-police, mug shots, or arrest history, like Z does, all of which is relevant to understanding Z's self-annointed vigilante crusading against "young black males" that his friends say he is obsessed with.

Neither of the past criminal or non-criminal history will matter in this case with regard to either person. Calling the police to report potential crimes, assaulting a bus driver, none of it matters.

The me, the case will turn on whether Martin did attack Zimmerman, and if Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force in self-defense. Its actually a very simple case, which the media, both left and right, is trying to complicate. I call it a case but my guess is that unless the police report proves to be false, or unless there is another smoking gun, the case will never go to trial because under Florida Law, Zimmerman did not commit a crime. Those are big "ifs".

[Winehole23]

Whereas the personal background of the shooter may be relevant to the official investigation and is a legit topic of public interest, Trayvon Martin's disciplinary record at school isn't.

[TeyshaBlue]

TBH I don't think it would be relevant even then. I certainly don't see Zimmerman having foreknowledge affecting what he did. He pretty much assumed Treyvon was a miscreant from the beginning.

It very well might not be....I was trying to construct a scenario where it was. It's probable that scenario doesn't exist.:toast

[CosmicCowboy]

It doesn't matter as far as determining if a crime was or was not committed that night, but if Zimmerman's past is fair game in the press for attack then so is Martins. I just posted the article. I didn't post an editorial comment.

[clambake]

i think we can all agree that zimmerman has prevented future criminal acts or at least eliminated the possibility of another unqualified black surgeon.

[Winehole23]

but if Zimmerman's past is fair game in the press for attack then so is MartinsConcern for the privacy and reputation of the unarmed minor who got shot should be equal to that for the shooter, in your opinion?

[CosmicCowboy]

Concern for the privacy and reputation of the unarmed minor who got shot should be equal to that for the shooter, in your opinion?

So the press should only trash the reputation of the winner of the fight and not the loser?

[clambake]

So the press should only trash the reputation of the winner of the fight and not the loser?

they should trash that kid for bringing skittles to a gun fight.

[Winehole23]

So the press should only trash the reputation of the winner of the fight and not the loser?I asked for your opinion.

The privacy of minor victims of gun play deserves some consideration, even if the victim dies. Trashing the kid who got shot is pretty pathetic.

[Goran Dragic]

It doesn't matter as far as determining if a crime was or was not committed that night, but if Zimmerman's past is fair game in the press for attack then so is Martins. I just posted the article. I didn't post an editorial comment.
If it's true that Zimmerman wanted to be a cop but failed at it and has called 911 like 46 times in the last few years, that's totally relevant to someone who was acting as a vigilante.

[Goran Dragic]

Boutons...

Also remember, he was athletic and young. Zimmerman wasn't taking care of his body. Can you really see Zimmerman having any advantage on the kid?

A fucking gun.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

I asked for your opinion.

The privacy of minor victims of gun play deserves some consideration, even if the victim dies. Trashing the kid who got shot is pretty pathetic.

Putting Zimmerman on trial in the press without the facts is pretty pathetic too.

[Winehole23]

So the press should only trash the reputation of the winner of the fight and not the loser?If anonymous police leaking to the press can be believed, Trayvon Martin won the fight. Then he got shot.

[Winehole23]

Putting Zimmerman on trial in the press without the facts is pretty pathetic too.yes, but you don't defend that

[CosmicCowboy]

Go chew on someone else's ankle. You don't even know what you are trying to argue about.

[Goran Dragic]

Putting Zimmerman on trial in the press without the facts is pretty pathetic too.
Maybe this is just personal opinion, but that 911 call where Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin after being told not to is all the "facts" I need to see Zimmerman get sabotaged in the press for killing Martin.

[CosmicCowboy]

If you were dealing in facts you would know that the dispatcher did NOT specifically tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin.

[CosmicCowboy]

And for the record I think Zimmerman is a despicable shithead.

[elbamba]

Whereas the personal background of the shooter may be relevant to the official investigation and is a legit topic of public interest, Trayvon Martin's disciplinary record at school isn't.

While it may be relevant. If I were arguing the case for Zimmerman, I would argue that even if he was a race hating bigot, at the time he shot Martin, he was being being beaten and his life was in danger as evidenced by the broken nose and lacerations to the back of the head. But for shooting Martin, Zimmerman might have been beaten to death. And I have a witness who saw the beating. The prosecution has nothing but circumstantial evidence and public outrage. They want to focus on the past instead of the facts that not only my client has stated, but that have been supported by the only eye witness.

The outrage is over why Zimmerman has not been arrested. His personal background really isn't revelevant to the Florida Stand Your Ground Law, under the facts that have been reported by the local police investigation. IMHO, the personal background information on Zimmerman is to try to justify and incite public outrage. Usually this tactic is used by the prosecutor to garnish support at the local level and to increase outrage against an alleged criminal.

[clambake]

they should arrest the dispatcher now. lol

[Bill_Brasky]

Putting Zimmerman on trial in the press without the facts is pretty pathetic too.

:lmao OK "Mr John Wayne". Not surprised at all that someone with that user title is defending the actions of a gun toting lunatic.

[CosmicCowboy]

If there was ANY way the police or prosecutor thought they could make a case Zimmerman would already have been arrested. Apparently the facts as known by the Police simply don't support an arrest.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lmao OK "Mr John Wayne". Not surprised at all that someone with that user title is defending the actions of a gun toting lunatic.

Actually, Kori gave me that user title years ago after meeting me in person and I have not changed it.

[coyotes_geek]

The privacy of minor victims of gun play deserves some consideration, even if the victim dies. Trashing the kid who got shot is pretty pathetic.


Putting Zimmerman on trial in the press without the facts is pretty pathetic too.

Fair points by both of you, but that's not the world we live in. We want as much information as possible, the media wants to give us what we're demanding.

[Winehole23]

Go chew on someone else's ankle. You don't even know what you are trying to argue about.Sure I do. You denounced the attempt to try Zimmerman in the press, while defending the unprincipled disclosure of Martin's school records as equal treatment.

[Goran Dragic]

If you were dealing in facts you would know that the dispatcher did NOT specifically tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin.
He said "You don't have to do that." You're arguing semantics. It was obvious the dispatcher was suggesting he stop follow Martin.

[Goran Dragic]

:lol Republicans sympathizing with Zimmerman

:cryneighborhood watch hero:cry
:crygreat fuckin American hero:cry
:cryhe might have been following Martin but it was self defense:cry

[boutons_deux]

the ugly faddish expression:

"We don't need you to do that",

rather than

"(Please) don't do that"

[elbamba]

Maybe this is just personal opinion, but that 911 call where Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin after being told not to is all the "facts" I need to see Zimmerman get sabotaged in the press for killing Martin.

You are mistaken and you are making the same critical mistake that most people are making. He was not instructed "NOT" to follow. The dispatcher said "We do not need you to follow".

Then, pay close attention to what Zimmerman says after the dispatcher says that we not not need you to follow, his response is "OK". He then tells the dispatcher his name and that Martin ran. He then tells the dispatcher that he will meet the officers.

From the transcript, it sounds like he had stopped pursuing Martin and was returing to his car.

I understand the outrage over this case. But as an attorney, I feel like you have to take the emotion out of the ultimate outcome, and look at Zimmerman's actions, applied to Flordia law.

I am not saying he is innocent, I do not have access to all the facts. But what I do have access too, if I were his defense attorney, I could make a pretty damn solid case that this was self defense.

[CosmicCowboy]

He said "You don't have to do that." You're arguing semantics. It was obvious the dispatcher was suggesting he stop follow Martin.

Comprehension in the English language IS a matter of semantics.

[cantthinkofanything]

:lol Republicans sympathizing with Zimmerman

:cryneighborhood watch hero:cry
:crygreat fuckin American hero:cry
:cryhe might have been following Martin but it was self defense:cry

whoever said you were stupid was right.

[elbamba]

Fair points by both of you, but that's not the world we live in. We want as much information as possible, the media wants to give us what we're demanding.

I think the media plays to our emotion. When this case first caught my eye, I was outraged. Then I started listening to to the testimony of two alleged eye witnesses on Anderson Cooper and I began to think that they were full of crap. I know believe that he was acting in self-defense, based on what I have read online from the local police investigation. I could be wrong, and if new facts come out about that night, I will be happy to look and change my mind. But I will not be sucker of biased reporting nor will I judge based on emotion.

[CosmicCowboy]

Sure I do. You denounced the attempt to try Zimmerman in the press, while defending the unprincipled disclosure of Martin's school records as equal treatment.

bullshit. I did no such thing. I think trashing either one in the press sucks but as CG said, that just the world we live in. If the press is gonna trash Zimmerman then Martin shouldn't get a free pass either just because he got shot after he beat the other guy up.

[elbamba]

He said "You don't have to do that." You're arguing semantics. It was obvious the dispatcher was suggesting he stop follow Martin.

And it also sounds pretty obvious from the transcript that Zimmerman complied with the officer's suggestion.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Sure I do. You denounced the attempt to try Zimmerman in the press, while defending the unprincipled disclosure of Martin's school records as equal treatment.

So records don't mean anything now? Documented records.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

whoever said you were stupid was right.

That was me. And I'll do it again

[Winehole23]

privacy of the victim should count for nothing? we are talking about a minor here.

[CosmicCowboy]

And it also sounds pretty obvious from the transcript that Zimmerman complied with the officer's suggestion.

I listened to it in person and it wasn't really obvious that Zimmerman stopped following Martin. It WAS obvious that the dispatcher DID NOT tell him explicitly to quit following Martin.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I think the media plays to our emotion. When this case first caught my eye, I was outraged. Then I started listening to to the testimony of two alleged eye witnesses on Anderson Cooper and I began to think that they were full of crap. I know believe that he was acting in self-defense, based on what I have read online from the local police investigation. I could be wrong, and if new facts come out about that night, I will be happy to look and change my mind. But I will not be sucker of biased reporting nor will I judge based on emotion.

I'm in the same boat as you.

[Goran Dragic]

From the transcript, it sounds like he had stopped pursuing Martin and was returing to his car.

What part of the transcript sounds like that. The part where he says "These assholes, they always get away" or the part where he says "fuckin coons"

[Winehole23]

I listened to it in person and it wasn't really obvious that Zimmerman stopped following Martin. It WAS obvious that the dispatcher DID NOT tell him explicitly to quit following Martin.So Zimmerman went against advice of LE, and got in way over his head

[Goran Dragic]

And it also sounds pretty obvious from the transcript that Zimmerman complied with the officer's suggestion.
:lmao no it isn't

[CosmicCowboy]

privacy of the victim should count for nothing? we are talking about a minor here.

Barely, in Florida (18)

In Texas (17) he wouldn't be a juvenile.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

privacy of the victim should count for nothing? we are talking about a minor here.

So. You don't think character should be proven through documented records? The court and media should just go off what his friends and family say about him?

The wife of that dude that lit up those women and children said he'd never harm children. Should we let him go?

[ChumpDumper]

So Zimmerman went against advice of LE, and got in way over his headHe went against the rules of his own stupid organization.

This kid is fucking dead and the guy who did it is somehow untouchable because he gave the cops his word? No one sees anything wrong with this?

[CosmicCowboy]

So Zimmerman went against advice of LE, and got in way over his head

It looks to me (based on the FACTS I have read and heard) like a horrible misunderstanding by both parties that escalated into the beating of one subject and the tragic death of the other. Apparently the prosecutor and police agree with me.

[Fpoonsie]

...or the part where he says "fuckin coons"

He didn't.

[Winehole23]

So. You don't think character should be proven through documented records? the character of unarmed gunshot victims has to be proven now?

tough crowd...

[Sportcamper]

What bothers me is that Zimmerman is not a REAL police officer & he had no business confronting a civilian on public streets…

REAL police offers undergo background checks, drug testing and psychological evaluation…Over half of police applicants can not make it past a background check…Then REAL police officers spend six months in a police academy receiving 700 to 1000 hours of physical and classroom training to learn take down holds, compliance holds, firearm training, the penal code and most importantly community relations…Few applicants make it through the academy…Then the ones who do graduate then spend a year working with a supervisor who teaches them appropriate police conduct…Sheriffs often spend two years working the county jail system before they are ever allowed to be on the streets…

The dispatcher told Zimmerman, “We don’t need you to follow him”…This clown did not even have the good sense to follow instructions from a dispatcher…

[Fpoonsie]

the character of unarmed gunshot victims has to be proven now?

tough crowd...

Obviously, otherwise, why use such a white-washed photo of the alleged victim from years ago?

[CosmicCowboy]

the character of unarmed gunshot victims has to be proven now?

tough crowd...

So when a Gulf cartel member shoots an unarmed Zeta the Zeta should just be reported as an innocent victim?

What's your threshold of disclosure?

And it's an exaggerated analogy, not a straw man. I'm not accusing you of defending the gulf cartel.

[Winehole23]

It looks to me (based on the FACTS I have read and heard) like a horrible misunderstanding by both parties that escalated into the beating of one subject and the tragic death of the other. Apparently the prosecutor and police agree with me.It's always nice to see the DA and the police presenting their case to the media before official investigations have concluded...if one happens to agree with their hasty conclusions.