Trayvon Martin - black kid armed with skittles killed in "self-defense"

[Agloco]

3772 posts later, right or wrong, I still think the DA overcharged and I haven't seen anything to make me believe that they will get a conviction on 2nd degree Murder.

After having seen most of the arguments now, I agree. I don't believe that still stick.

I don't know what sort of charge would be appropriate here though. Negligent homicide? No idea. That's better left for the legal eagles.

[Blake]

How is that not a motive?

based on the facts of this case, there is nothing to support that claim.

There is also no evidence that suggests Zimmerman is lying about his motive.

[Blake]

After having seen most of the arguments now, I agree. I don't believe that still stick.

I don't know what sort of charge would be appropriate here though. Negligent homicide? No idea. That's better left for the legal eagles.

Most of the opinions I've seen say she should have gone with a manslaughter charge.

[clambake]

they're gonna try to pin him with profiling. its not an unreasonable tactic.

[Blake]

Was Martin on top of him, beating on him or not?

[clambake]

george said he was. george said he'd been hit a dozen times. thats a lie.

[Blake]

george said he was. george said he'd been hit a dozen times. thats a lie.

How many hits was it?

[elbamba]

they're gonna try to pin him with profiling. its not an unreasonable tactic.

I have notice that many keep referring to "profiling" as if it adds an element to this case. Its almost as if they don't want to say racial profiling because it was left out of the affidavit filed by the investigator.

There is no charge for profiling in Florida, or any state of which I am aware. Perhaps the federal government will go after him for racial profiling under a federal law. This might be covered under a hate crime or something to that effect. So far, no criminal charges have been brought against Zimmerman for this.

[elbamba]

george said he was. george said he'd been hit a dozen times. thats a lie.

The prosecution will have to prove that it was a lie. I hope they have a solid eye-witness.

[clambake]

I have notice that many keep referring to "profiling" as if it adds an element to this case. Its almost as if they don't want to say racial profiling because it was left out of the affidavit filed by the investigator.

There is no charge for profiling in Florida, or any state of which I am aware. Perhaps the federal government will go after him for racial profiling under a federal law. This might be covered under a hate crime or something to that effect. So far, no criminal charges have been brought against Zimmerman for this.

i agree.

[clambake]

How many hits was it?

don't know. certainly wasn't any visual evidence showing he'd been hit a dozen times.

[Blake]

don't know. certainly wasn't any visual evidence showing he'd been hit a dozen times.

But there is evidence that he was hit.

Even if he is exaggerating, I think the exact number of times is irrelevant.

[clambake]

exaggerating is the kinder, gentler way of saying he's lying again, right?

[Trill Clinton]

I have notice that many keep referring to "profiling" as if it adds an element to this case. Its almost as if they don't want to say racial profiling because it was left out of the affidavit filed by the investigator.

There is no charge for profiling in Florida, or any state of which I am aware. Perhaps the federal government will go after him for racial profiling under a federal law. This might be covered under a hate crime or something to that effect. So far, no criminal charges have been brought against Zimmerman for this.
I agree. call it what it is and stop sugarcoating it. zimmerman racial profiled a kid who just wanted to get home to give his younger brother his candy and talk to his girlfriend over the phone, that's it. smh...black kids can't even walk home in the rain without looking suspicious, we have to run full speed and never look around or we'll get followed and shot in the chest.

when my son is old enough to understand, this will be one of the stories I share to him as to what life is like for young black men. its disgusting.

[Wild Cobra]

when my son is old enough to understand, this will be one of the stories I share to him as to what life is like for young black men. its disgusting.
So you will enforce the negative vicious circle...

[Trill Clinton]

So you will enforce the negative vicious circle...

not enforcing a vicious cycle, making him aware of the realities of society. teaching him that the color of his skin makes him a target of negative connotations no matter where he is at. I shouldn't have to do this in the 21st century but it is what it is.

you don't think I should educate my son on racism?

[Creepn]

So you will enforce the negative vicious circle...

We stopped passing down the black codes about being black in America. Martin sure wasnt taught. Now it looks likes we'll have to revive it so our kids won't be harassed or killed.

[DisAsTerBot]

not enforcing a vicious cycle, making him aware of the realities of society. teaching him that the color of his skin makes him a target of negative connotations no matter where he is at. I shouldn't have to do this in the 21st century but it is what it is.

you don't think I should educate my son on racism?

hopefully no one needs to be "educated" in racism. That's like being "educated" in life. Most of us have experienced it and understand that it sucks. I'm sure he'll be able to figure that out as well without someone telling him he's a target because of his skin. Smh

So, as soon as he's old enough dad will tell him that he's a victim. Self oppression at it's finest.

[CosmicCowboy]

We stopped passing down the black codes about being black in America. Martin sure wasnt taught. Now it looks likes we'll have to revive it so our kids won't be harassed or killed.

Oh pfffft.

Sure looked like "nolimitnigga" got the code.

[Blake]

exaggerating is the kinder, gentler way of saying he's lying again, right?

Not if he remembers it as a dozen.

I think a jury gives him leeway for not keeping an exact count of hits while getting hit.

[Trill Clinton]

hopefully no one needs to be "educated" in racism. That's like being "educated" in life. Most of us have experienced it and understand that it sucks. I'm sure he'll be able to figure that out as well without someone telling him he's a target because of his skin. Smh

So, as soon as he's old enough dad will tell him that he's a victim. Self oppression at it's finest.
shut the fuck up

[Creepn]

Oh pfffft.

Sure looked like "nolimitnigga" got the code.

Id tell my kid that white ranch cowboys have a hard on for guns and have an itch to shoot a nigga for simply passing by on the sidewalk.

[clambake]

whoa

[CosmicCowboy]

Id tell my kid that white ranch cowboys have a hard on for guns and have an itch to shoot a nigga for simply passing by on the sidewalk.

And you would be passing on an untrue, ignorant stereotype. Fuck off asshole.

[Trill Clinton]

We stopped passing down the black codes about being black in America. Martin sure wasnt taught. Now it looks likes we'll have to revive it so our kids won't be harassed or killed.

exactly, I love my people but de-segregation was probably the worst thing that happened to us. in the 60's and 70's we had thriving business, our communities were drug free, black teachers who actually cared about our education. then after the civil rights movement we got complacent and never kept that momentum going.

Malcom was right all along. fuck that we shall get along shit cuz at the end of the day, the black man is still looked upon as a threat.

[clambake]

Not if he remembers it as a dozen.
i agree. i'm quite sure he's capable of manipulating the truth with himself. he's a willing liar.

I think a jury gives him leeway for not keeping an exact count of hits while getting hit.

doubt they'll ever hear it.

[Blake]

exactly, I love my people but de-segregation was probably the worst thing that happened to us.

wut

[Blake]

doubt they'll ever hear it.

Agreed. Mainly because getting the exact number of times he got hit wrong is irrelevant.

[clambake]

Agreed. Mainly because getting the exact number of times he got hit wrong is irrelevant.

yeah, after stalking him down, getting hit once is enough to kill an unarmed kid cuz you're afraid for your life.

makes sense to me!

[Agloco]

Oh pfffft.

Sure looked like "nolimitnigga" got the code.



And you would be passing on an untrue, ignorant stereotype.

[Blake]

yeah, after stalking him down, getting hit once is enough to kill an unarmed kid cuz you're afraid for your life.

makes sense to me!

Do you think he got hit more than once?

Do you think he got hit at all or did he lie about that too?

Maybe after the shot was fired and he fell, Z grabbed martins fist and used it to punch himself a dozen times.

[Trill Clinton]

wut

like I said.

once we were recognized as equal we shouldn't have been so quick to go to the white school or eat in the white restuarants. keep our money in the black community and train and educate our own people. intergration in the end did more harm than good.

[clambake]

Maybe after the shot was fired and he fell, Z grabbed martins fist and used it to punch himself a dozen times.

that would explain why he only had scratches. still a bit of a reach for you.

[clambake]

boom for agloco

[CosmicCowboy]

like I said.

once we were recognized as equal we shouldn't have been so quick to go to the white school or eat in the white restuarants. keep our money in the black community and train and educate our own people. intergration in the end did more harm than good.

You may have a point. They also got caught up in general decline of the family and the exit of the working black male as a parental influence and role model.

[Trill Clinton]

You may have a point. They also got caught up in general decline of the family and the exit of the working black male as a parental influence and role model.

most of that was due to the introduction of the drugs in the black community(wonder how that got there), but that's a whole other thread.

[Blake]

like I said.

once we were recognized as equal we shouldn't have been so quick to go to the white school or eat in the white restuarants. keep our money in the black community and train and educate our own people. intergration in the end did more harm than good.

Interesting theory.

Might be a great documentary for BET.

[Blake]

that would explain why he only had scratches. still a bit of a reach for you.

That's not the way I read the report.

I'm just trying to figure if you think absolutely everything Z says is a lie.

[Trill Clinton]

Interesting theory.

Might be a great documentary for BET.

don't watch BET, try again.

[clambake]

That's not the way I read the report.

I'm just trying to figure if you think absolutely everything Z says is a lie.

he said he was there. i believe that.

[elbamba]

you don't think I should educate my son on racism?

If keeping him alive is your priority, you should probably teach him that he has a greater chance of being shot by a fellow African-American. That sadly, is a greater threat to young African-Americans safety. Certainly Mexicans would be low on the list of potential dangers.

[Blake]

don't watch BET, try again.

Didn't say you did, I'll pass.

[Blake]

he said he was there. i believe that.

Baby steps

[Trill Clinton]

Didn't say you did, I'll pass.

thank you. save the lame race jokes for somebody else.


If keeping him alive is your priority, you should probably teach him that he has a greater chance of being shot by a fellow African-American. That sadly, is a greater threat to young African-Americans safety. Certainly Mexicans would be low on the list of potential dangers.

i will teach him about gun violence and how the color of his skin is seen as a threat by white people amongst other things. i'm not ignorant to the fact that african american males kill each other everyday, again that is for another thread that this board isn't serious enough to discuss.

[Blake]

thank you. save the lame race jokes for somebody else.


I don't do race jokes. Stop trying.

[clambake]

Baby steps

you should take some.

[clambake]

here's a baby step for ya. he's willing to lie to get what he wants. thats indisputable.

[Trill Clinton]

I don't do race jokes. Stop trying.
you tried a race joke and it failed.

[Wild Cobra]

not enforcing a vicious cycle, making him aware of the realities of society. teaching him that the color of his skin makes him a target of negative connotations no matter where he is at. I shouldn't have to do this in the 21st century but it is what it is.

you don't think I should educate my son on racism?
Wow...

Just wow...

Make your kid afraid of whites. You will do more harm than good, and possible make him another thug that thinks it's OK to attack whites.

[Wild Cobra]

We stopped passing down the black codes about being black in America. Martin sure wasnt taught. Now it looks likes we'll have to revive it so our kids won't be harassed or killed.
I guess that means we will have to teach the "white code" again, telling our kids to "watch out, because blacks are taught we are the bad guy."

Give me a break. When will this shit stop?

[Wild Cobra]

hopefully no one needs to be "educated" in racism. That's like being "educated" in life. Most of us have experienced it and understand that it sucks. I'm sure he'll be able to figure that out as well without someone telling him he's a target because of his skin. Smh

So, as soon as he's old enough dad will tell him that he's a victim. Self oppression at it's finest.
No shit.

[Wild Cobra]

Id tell my kid that white ranch cowboys have a hard on for guns and have an itch to shoot a nigga for simply passing by on the sidewalk.
Don't you think that might make him "trigger happy" to assault someone who's white?

[Blake]

you should take some.

Way past them.

Putting down your torch and/or pitchfork would be a start, tbh.

[Blake]

here's a baby step for ya. he's willing to lie to get what he wants. thats indisputable.

Is it indisputable that he lied about defending himself?

[Trill Clinton]

Wow...

Just wow...

Make your kid afraid of whites. You will do more harm than good, and possible make him another thug that thinks it's OK to attack whites.

Afraid?:lol stop it.

Make him AWARE of the realities. Most of white America are out of touch with Black America. The stereotypes in this thread and on this forum is proof of that. Most whites think the black youth are nothing but drug dealing thugs or athletes anyways, which is very ignorant and close minded. Please don't be ignorant to the fact that society assigns value to people according to their skin color. white privilage is real.

[Trill Clinton]

I guess that means we will have to teach the "white code" again, telling our kids to "watch out, because blacks are taught we are the bad guy."

Give me a break. When will this shit stop?

it'll stop when you put your fears and stereotypes of black people aside.

[CosmicCowboy]

We probably don't have to worry about Trill teaching his son anything. He will probably bolt on the babymama and leave her sucking off welfare to raise the kid by herself.

[Blake]

you tried a race joke and it failed.

it wasn't a race joke.

you sure are sensitive though.

[Blake]

Afraid?:lol stop it.

Make him AWARE of the realities. Most of white America are out of touch with Black America. The stereotypes in this thread and on this forum is proof of that. Most whites think the black youth are nothing but drug dealing thugs or athletes anyways, which is very ignorant and close minded. Please don't be ignorant to the fact that society assigns value to people according to their skin color. white privilage is real.

Pretty ignorant and close minded view of ” white America”

This might explain why you think black America should have stayed segregated from white America.

Just curious, do you also feel blacks should only marry other blacks?

[Trill Clinton]

When will this shit stop?

you tell me.

[Trill Clinton]

We probably don't have to worry about Trill teaching his son anything. He will probably bolt on the babymama and leave her sucking off welfare to raise the kid by herself.


^^^
exhibit A

[CosmicCowboy]

^^^
exhibit A

It's not a stereotype if it is born out by statistics.

72% of black children are being raised by their single mothers.

[Trill Clinton]

Pretty ignorant and close minded view of ” white America”

This might explain why you think black America should have stayed segregated from white America.

Just curious, do you also feel blacks should only marry other blacks?

whatever, my view of white America is pretty accurate.

people can marry whoever they want. interracial marriages have been going on for centuries, I have no problem with that.

[Trill Clinton]

It's not a stereotype if it is born out by statistics.

72% of black children are being raised by their single mothers.

did you stop at that statistic or did you do some critical thinking and ask why? if you did, what did you come up with?

[clambake]

Is it indisputable that he lied about defending himself?

its indisputable that he's a liar. indisputable.

just can't wrap your brain around that, huh?

[CosmicCowboy]

did you stop at that statistic or did you do some critical thinking and ask why? if you did, what did you come up with?

That there is statistically a 72% chance that you will knock the bitch up and run...:lol

[Blake]

whatever, my view of white America is pretty accurate.

way to keep an open mind. :tu


people can marry whoever they want. interracial marriages have been going on for centuries, I have no problem with that.

Except segregation laws for the most part made interracial marriages illegal.

[Blake]

its indisputable that he's a liar. indisputable.

just can't wrap your brain around that, huh?

lying about external items a,b and c does not mean he lied about relevant item D.

Thankfully our justice system is better than you.

[Trill Clinton]

That there is statistically a 72% chance that you will knock the bitch up and run...:lol

:sleep

I could drop some more statistics about some things white men do lol, but I don't want to derail the thread any further.

[Trill Clinton]

way to keep an open mind. :tu



Except segregation laws for the most part made interracial marriages illegal.

Thanks.

[DisAsTerBot]

That there is statistically a 72% chance that you will knock the bitch up and run...:lol

Math!?!?! that's racist bullshit!!

[clambake]

Thankfully our justice system is better than you.

:lol oj and casey anthony say hi.

[Blake]

Thanks.

since you misread me before thinking I posted a race joke, I should tell you that you are now thanking me for a sarcastic remark.

[Blake]

:lol oj and casey anthony say hi.

Didn't say it was perfect. Just better than you.

[clambake]

Didn't say it was perfect. Just better than you.

you just refuse to look at this guy.

weird.

[Blake]

you just refuse to look at this guy.

weird.

I'm not ready to hang this guy.

I think it's weird for you to already have the gallows ready.

[clambake]

I'm not ready to hang this guy.

I think it's weird for you to already have the gallows ready.

i never said he should be executed.

he should be punished SEVERELY.

[Blake]

i never said he should be executed.

he should be punished SEVERELY.

what do you think his punishment should be?

[clambake]

30 years.

[Blake]

I think it's weird you are already ready to send him to jail for 30 years.

[clambake]

I think it's weird you are already ready to send him to jail for 30 years.

i think he knew exactly what he was willing to do.

if he's a good boy, he won't spend that much time.

[Blake]

i think he knew exactly what he was willing to do.

if he's a good boy, he won't spend that much time.

I don't think he was/is willing to do any time.

that's why he entered a plea of not guilty and if nothing changes, at this point I don't see any way he takes a plea deal.

[clambake]

I don't think he was/is willing to do any time.

that's why he entered a plea of not guilty and if nothing changes, at this point I don't see any way he takes a plea deal.

agreed

[clambake]

of course he won't take a plea deal.

he knew what he was willing to do the moment he saw martin.

and he's proved to be willing to lie to get what he wants.

[Blake]

Nobody has proven he was lying about being attacked.

I'd hate to send an innocent person to jail.

[mingus]

I find it disturbing that at no point in the confrontation did Zimmerman ever identify who he worked for (or did he? From what I read he did not). That's important information.

[mingus]

At the end of the day, I don't think Zimmerman wanted to kill 3von. I think what happened was a result of his ineptitude and he was cornered into doing it, basically.

[Blake]

I find it disturbing that at no point in the confrontation did Zimmerman ever identify who he worked for (or did he? From what I read he did not). That's important information.

Important how?

[clambake]

Important how?

he has a screw loose. he's a miserable person, with a miserable life. he has nothing but himself to blame. but he doesn't see it that way.

he's angry and looked for a release. lucky for him he found what he was looking for.

exactly what he looked for.

[mingus]

Important how?

If Zimmerman had told him who he was and what his role was 3von may have reconsidered his actions.

[jack sommerset]

he has a screw loose. he's a miserable person, with a miserable life. he has nothing but himself to blame. but he doesn't see it that way.

he's angry and looked for a release. lucky for him he found what he was looking for.

exactly what he looked for.

Haha.

I never seen you troll so hard. You are obsessed with this. God bless



"For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ"

[Agloco]

Important how?

A reasonable supposition would be that by not identifying himself, Z missed an opportunity to diffuse the situation.

[mingus]

A reasonable supposition would be that by not identifying himself, Z missed an opportunity to diffuse the situation.

Exactly. Unless he was working undercover, I don't see how it would've been been the right, or legal, thing to do.

[CosmicCowboy]

A reasonable supposition would be that by not identifying himself, Z missed an opportunity to diffuse the situation.


That's a long, long, long stretch from second degree murder.

We can all agree Zimmerman is probably an asshole.

[Blake]

If Zimmerman had told him who he was and what his role was 3von may have reconsidered his actions.

So it's really not important that he didn't identify himself.

mostly just regrettable.

[Blake]

Exactly. Unless he was working undercover, I don't see how it would've been been the right, or legal, thing to do.

What law are you referring to?

[Creepn]

based on the facts of this case, there is nothing to support that claim.

There is also no evidence that suggests Zimmerman is lying about his motive.

Sorry for late reply but he felt a responsibility to his neighbors to stop the burglaries. He stated that he has no faith in the police department. He also says on the phone "they always get away" obviously referring to his failed attempts to stop previous burglaries. It was making him look really bad as a captain. He then decides to take matters in his own hands and actively pursues the kid while having a gun. That doesn't support a motive?

The evidence that stomps out zimmerman's claim is that he doesn't look beaten to the point of death and he already lied and changed his story multiple times. He contradicted himself and the neighbors helped him.

[Blake]

Sorry for late reply but he felt a responsibility to his neighbors to stop the burglaries. He stated that he has no faith in the police department. He also says on the phone "they always get away" obviously referring to his failed attempts to stop previous burglaries. It was making him look really bad as a captain. He then decides to take matters in his own hands and actively pursues the kid while having a gun. That doesn't support a motive?

The evidence that stomps out zimmerman's claim is that he doesn't look beaten to the point of death and he already lied and changed his story multiple times. He contradicted himself and the neighbors helped him.

So if his premeditated motive was to kill him, why didn't he just shoot him at the start?

[Creepn]

So if his premeditated motive was to kill him, why didn't he just shoot him at the start?

Then he wouldn't have been able to claim self defense. Why didn't he announce himself to try to defuse the situation when he knew this kid was on high alert and in defense mode when he was running away from a strange man following him?

[CosmicCowboy]

If Zimmerman had been a cop, internal affairs would have called it a good shoot.

[Trill Clinton]

Then he wouldn't have been able to claim self defense. Why didn't he announce himself to try to defuse the situation when he knew this kid was on high alert and in defense mode when he was running away from a strange man following him?

save your keystrokes bruh.

its obvious some people are reaching for every angle possible to justify this innocent child's death. don't know how you can defend this coward and not call yourself a racist.

[ChumpDumper]

If Zimmerman had been a cop, internal affairs would have called it a good shoot.Shooting a black guy under questionable circumstances is a rite of passage for Austin police.

[Creepn]

If Zimmerman had been a cop, internal affairs would have called it a good shoot.

A guy swinging at a cop with the full attire and badge is totally different from this situation moron.

[CosmicCowboy]

A guy swinging at a cop with the full attire and badge is totally different from this situation moron.

So even you now admit that Martin attacked Zimmerman?

[Creepn]

save your keystrokes bruh.

its obvious some people are reaching for every angle possible to justify this innocent child's death. don't know how you can defend this coward and not call yourself a racist.

I wouldn't go as far to call blake a racist but he has disappointed me with his stance on this case. I've considered this guy to be one of my John Browns on this forum. There's already too few.

[Creepn]

So even you now admit that Martin attacked Zimmerman?

He definitely attacked. But who attacked first nobody knows.

[Blake]

Then he wouldn't have been able to claim self defense. Why didn't he announce himself to try to defuse the situation when he knew this kid was on high alert and in defense mode when he was running away from a strange man following him?

He probably coulda/shoulda announced himself, but his failure to do so confirms nothing.

Was Zimmerman being attacked and stood his ground or not?

[CosmicCowboy]

I wouldn't go as far to call blake a racist but he has disappointed me with his stance on this case. I've considered this guy to be one of my John Browns on this forum. There's already too few.

You simply are confusing rational people that say they don't see enough evidence to support a conviction on second degree murder with them being racists and supporting Zimmerman.

That is not a rational or logical leap to make.

[CosmicCowboy]

Sometimes shit just happens. In this case two idiots met in a dark subdivision on a rainy night and one of them got his ass whipped and the other one got killed. Tragic, but not second degree murder.

[Blake]

He definitely attacked. But who attacked first nobody knows.

Right. That's why prosecution is going to have a hell of a time proving this was not stand you ground.

Which ftr, is a law that needs to be killed.

[Blake]

save your keystrokes bruh.

its obvious some people are reaching for every angle possible to justify this innocent child's death. don't know how you can defend this coward and not call yourself a racist.

I personally think zimmerman deserves to be in jail on manslaughter charges.

[Agloco]

If Zimmerman had been a cop, internal affairs would have called it a good shoot.

He probably would have identified himself as one as well, likely obviating the need for said shot. The context of the encounter would have been completely different methinks.

[Agloco]

That's a long, long, long stretch from second degree murder.

We can all agree Zimmerman is probably an asshole.

Sure. We agree about the 2nd degree charge being over-zealous. I'm simply arguing the case that Z is culpable in what I deem a major way. No way this guy should walk though, asshole or not.

[Trill Clinton]

I personally think zimmerman deserves to be in jail on manslaughter charges.

this we agree on


Sometimes shit just happens. In this case two idiots met in a dark subdivision on a rainy night and one of them got his ass whipped and the other one got killed. Tragic, but not second degree murder.

how is Tray an idiot?

he was walking home minding his business, when out of nowhere zimmergirl follows him in his truck, then gets out the truck and approaches him. he was scared, felt threatened and natural instinct is to protect ones self. I know you expected Trayvon to run away and lure the potential stalker to his home where his little brother was but Tray isn't a dummy nor a coward.

[Blake]

this we agree on


To be clear though, it so far looks to me that there is not enough evidence to prove he is guilty.

[bobbyjoe]

He probably coulda/shoulda announced himself, but his failure to do so confirms nothing.

Was Zimmerman being attacked and stood his ground or not?

- It confirms that he voluntarily and negligently passed on not 1, but at least 2 chances to diffuse the situation. The first was obviously remaining in his vehicle and listening to the dispatcher.

- We don't know who attacked first, but this much we do know, from both Zimmerman's 911 call and his police statements. When Trayon first noticed Zimmerman following him, his reaction was to run away. In that same call, George was clearly upset about "another criminal getting away".

- If Trayvon's first instinct was to get the hell away from Zimmerman, what makes the Zimmerman supporters so confident Trayvon attacked first? If Trayvon wanted to attack Zimmerman, why would he circle his car, but then run away on a direct path to his dad's GFs house?

- It is beyond dispute that the first time the 2 saw each other, one wanted to get away and the other wanted to pursue. One guy was looking to go home; the other wanted to catch a criminal he just knew was going to get away "like all the others did".

- Given the facts above, something must have changed for Trayvon to go from running away to slugging GZ. My guess is that GZ tried illegally to detain him. The lead detective mentioned that he had spoken to a witness who said GZ had tried to detain TM and the 2 loudly argued. You don't run away from someone you want to assault and then change your mind 45 seconds later unless something significant has transpired. GZ will never tell the truth... but the fact that his stories are filled with inconsistencies tells you he's hiding something...

[bobbyjoe]

I find it disturbing that at no point in the confrontation did Zimmerman ever identify who he worked for (or did he? From what I read he did not). That's important information.

He admitted to Detective Serino during recorded questioning that he never identified himself as a concerned neighborhood watchman. I agree that this doesn't put him in a good light.

Of course neither does it put him in a good light that in a recorded jailcell conversation with his wife he joked about getting a hoodie to avoid reporters.

I think it's a manslaughter case, but some of his actions are more like a cold-blooded murderer than a guy who just showed bad judgement, but no premeditation:

- After shooting TM, he admits to straddling him and holding his hands down as TM died facedown in the grass. He claims he didn't realize the bullet connected but wanted to restrain TM?! Very hard to believe... Sounds more like a weak attempt at justifying why he was on top of TM...

- The first witness on the scene (less than a minute after the shooting) said "The guy said he shot TM, but acted like it was nothing and was acting very matter of fact and kept saying "just call my wife and tell her I shot someone".

- At the police station, he's cracking jokes and engaged in smalltalk with a female office. Seems like he's almost flirting with her.

- He also kept referring to TM as "the suspect" in the police interrogation the night of the killing. Such a wanna-be cop and absolutely 0 remorse during the taped questioning, something he totally lied about in the first bond hearing. It's scary people like him exist...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If Zimmerman had been a cop, internal affairs would have called it a good shoot.

Is this what you tell yourself? He's being brought up on charges by law enforcement types or are you trying to say that cops give their own a free pass?

[clambake]

Omara asked if zim could make a statement without being cross examined lol

[Agloco]

- It confirms that he voluntarily and negligently passed on not 1, but at least 2 chances to diffuse the situation. The first was obviously remaining in his vehicle and listening to the dispatcher.

- We don't know who attacked first, but this much we do know, from both Zimmerman's 911 call and his police statements. When Trayon first noticed Zimmerman following him, his reaction was to run away. In that same call, George was clearly upset about "another criminal getting away".

- If Trayvon's first instinct was to get the hell away from Zimmerman, what makes the Zimmerman supporters so confident Trayvon attacked first? If Trayvon wanted to attack Zimmerman, why would he circle his car, but then run away on a direct path to his dad's GFs house?

- It is beyond dispute that the first time the 2 saw each other, one wanted to get away and the other wanted to pursue. One guy was looking to go home; the other wanted to catch a criminal he just knew was going to get away "like all the others did".

- Given the facts above, something must have changed for Trayvon to go from running away to slugging GZ. My guess is that GZ tried illegally to detain him. The lead detective mentioned that he had spoken to a witness who said GZ had tried to detain TM and the 2 loudly argued. You don't run away from someone you want to assault and then change your mind 45 seconds later unless something significant has transpired. GZ will never tell the truth... but the fact that his stories are filled with inconsistencies tells you he's hiding something...

Well put. :tu

[Trill Clinton]

Omara asked if zim could make a statement without being cross examined lol

smh the nerve of this guy


-bobbyjoe always comes through and crushes the buildings.

[Creepn]

He admitted to Detective Serino during recorded questioning that he never identified himself as a concerned neighborhood watchman. I agree that this doesn't put him in a good light.

Of course neither does it put him in a good light that in a recorded jailcell conversation with his wife he joked about getting a hoodie to avoid reporters.

I think it's a manslaughter case, but some of his actions are more like a cold-blooded murderer than a guy who just showed bad judgement, but no premeditation:

- After shooting TM, he admits to straddling him and holding his hands down as TM died facedown in the grass. He claims he didn't realize the bullet connected but wanted to restrain TM?! Very hard to believe... Sounds more like a weak attempt at justifying why he was on top of TM...

- The first witness on the scene (less than a minute after the shooting) said "The guy said he shot TM, but acted like it was nothing and was acting very matter of fact and kept saying "just call my wife and tell her I shot someone".

- At the police station, he's cracking jokes and engaged in smalltalk with a female office. Seems like he's almost flirting with her.

- He also kept referring to TM as "the suspect" in the police interrogation the night of the killing. Such a wanna-be cop and absolutely 0 remorse during the taped questioning, something he totally lied about in the first bond hearing. It's scary people like him exist...

I believe you just summed up how and why it went down. The problem is proving it and I understand that but when people defend the guy just because of lack of evidence or some loopholes in the law that gives him a pass is just... I don't know.

Like morals takes a backseat while shitty corrupt lawmaking is priority.

[Wild Cobra]

Innocent before "proven" guilty is a loophole?

[Blake]

-
- We don't know who attacked first

That's a big issue.



- If Trayvon's first instinct was to get the hell away from Zimmerman, what makes the Zimmerman supporters so confident Trayvon attacked first? If Trayvon wanted to attack Zimmerman, why would he circle his car, but then run away on a direct path to his dad's GFs house?

How do you know that was his first instinct?


- It is beyond dispute that the first time the 2 saw each other, one wanted to get away and the other wanted to pursue.

One guy was looking to go home; the other wanted to catch a criminal he just knew was going to get away "like all the others did".

Is it really beyond dispute that one guy was simply looking to go home?

Z said he saw him looking in house windows.

And Z passed a lie detector test regarding questions about that night.

[bobbyjoe]

That's a big issue.

Agreed from the standpoint of securing a conviction. Although I'd argue that Zimmerman's negligenge clearly inflamed the situation by following him unnecessarily and repeatedly as did his failure to simply point out who it was. Most disturbing of all on the police tape (I listened to all of it) is that he admits to Detective Serino that it never even occurred to him to ID himself as the neighborhood watchman.

If you were being followed late at night by a 200 pound stocky 28 year old who wasn't a cop or security guy, would you think he had good intentions or that he was probably planning to rob or attack you?
Zimmerman's own account actually justifies Trayvon taking the first swing if you listen closely. His version is that Trayvon asked him "Do you have a problem?". He tells police officers his first reaction is to reach for his cell phone in his left pocket, not to verbally respond. So, now you have a strange man who's been following you immediately reach for his pocket. How could you not reasonably think he was reaching for a weapon and want to proactively defend yourself? Again, this is where his negligent and admitted failure to identify himself makes him culpable for what went down.


How do you know that was his first instinct?

Thanks to Zimmerman. Zimmerman's own account to police was that Trayvon circled his car and then proceeded to run away. He didn't try to break into his car. He didn't knock on the cardoor or windows. He tried to get away. Again, one individual that night wanted to avoid the confrontation by getting away and the other was seeking it out to be the hero and stop a crime. Is it really beyond dispute that one guy was simply looking to go home?

Z said he saw him looking in house windows.

And Z passed a lie detector test regarding questions about that night.

He passed a voice stress test. Similar to, but not quite the same as a polygraph. It consisted of 2 questions:

"Were you in fear for your life when you shot him"

"Did you confront him?"

I'm not into police conspiracy theories, but asking a suspect 2 questions is not a thorough examination.

Check this interrogation out between Serino, another officer and Zimmerman. This one wasn't a lie detector test but the 2 officers grill him about inconsistencies and illogical statements in his previous statements and identify contradictions between his 911 call and his statement. This one wasn't subject to a lie detector test but I defy any Zimmerman supporter to listen to this for 15 minutes and honestly say they still think he's not lying.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/zimmerman-caught-on-tape-the-screams/2012/06/29/gJQAxIO5BW_blog.html

Go to the "911 calls (scroll to 16:42)" hyperlink.

I think this call really exemplifies how at first this might look like a self defense case (clearly Zimmerman had injuries and was beaten up) but when you really drill into the details, Zimmerman looks worse and worse in terms of the role he played in it.

[TheSkeptic]

He admitted to Detective Serino during recorded questioning that he never identified himself as a concerned neighborhood watchman. I agree that this doesn't put him in a good light.

Of course neither does it put him in a good light that in a recorded jailcell conversation with his wife he joked about getting a hoodie to avoid reporters.

I think it's a manslaughter case, but some of his actions are more like a cold-blooded murderer than a guy who just showed bad judgement, but no premeditation:

- After shooting TM, he admits to straddling him and holding his hands down as TM died facedown in the grass. He claims he didn't realize the bullet connected but wanted to restrain TM?! Very hard to believe... Sounds more like a weak attempt at justifying why he was on top of TM...

- The first witness on the scene (less than a minute after the shooting) said "The guy said he shot TM, but acted like it was nothing and was acting very matter of fact and kept saying "just call my wife and tell her I shot someone".

- At the police station, he's cracking jokes and engaged in smalltalk with a female office. Seems like he's almost flirting with her.



That's the interesting thing actually because apparently Florida's definition of Murder 2 doesn't require intent.


The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

In discussing the case Findlaw explains it this way:


So what is second degree murder?

Florida's jury instructions (which are based on the Florida statute) spell out three elements that prosecutors must prove to establish second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt:

The victim is deceased,

The victim's death was caused by the defendant's criminal act, and

There was an unlawful killing of the victim "by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life."

The last element -- an "imminently dangerous" act that shows a "depraved mind" -- is further defined by Florida's jury instructions. Three elements must be present:

A "person of ordinary judgment" would know the act, or series of acts, "is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another";

The act is "done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent"; and

The act is "of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life."

Note that prosecutors do not have to prove the defendant intended to cause death, Florida's jury instructions state.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2012/04/george-zimmerman-arrested-for-2nd-degree-murder.html

Jury instructions here: http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml#

Based on the other stuff you've listed here plus this definition I actually am leaning towards Murder 2 now assuming the prosecution can prove it in court.

I also find it interesting that you can believe Zimmerman had no choice but to defend himself and still find him guilty because this charge looks to hold him accountable for his role in what happened (and for his behaviour during the confrontation and afterwards).

Although Manslaughter of a child seems to carry about 30 years so I wouldn't complain if the jury went that way.



- After shooting TM, he admits to straddling him and holding his hands down as TM died facedown in the grass. He claims he didn't realize the bullet connected but wanted to restrain TM?! Very hard to believe... Sounds more like a weak attempt at justifying why he was on top of TM...

- The first witness on the scene (less than a minute after the shooting) said "The guy said he shot TM, but acted like it was nothing and was acting very matter of fact and kept saying "just call my wife and tell her I shot someone".

- At the police station, he's cracking jokes and engaged in smalltalk with a female office. Seems like he's almost flirting with her.

- He also kept referring to TM as "the suspect" in the police interrogation the night of the killing. Such a wanna-be cop and absolutely 0 remorse during the taped questioning, something he totally lied about in the first bond hearing. It's scary people like him exist...

Agreed. All of this combined is simply chilling in my opinion as is the calloused responses we've seen out of people. If I was American I would really hate for this guy to walk simply because of the legal precedent it would set.



He passed a voice stress test. Similar to, but not quite the same as a polygraph. It consisted of 2 questions:

"Were you in fear for your life when you shot him"

"Did you confront him?"

I'm not into police conspiracy theories, but asking a suspect 2 questions is not a thorough examination.

Check this interrogation out between Serino, another officer and Zimmerman. This one wasn't a lie detector test but the 2 officers grill him about inconsistencies and illogical statements in his previous statements and identify contradictions between his 911 call and his statement. This one wasn't subject to a lie detector test but I defy any Zimmerman supporter to listen to this for 15 minutes and honestly say they still think he's not lying.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/zimmerman-caught-on-tape-the-screams/2012/06/29/gJQAxIO5BW_blog.html

Go to the "911 calls (scroll to 16:42)" hyperlink.

I think this call really exemplifies how at first this might look like a self defense case (clearly Zimmerman had injuries and was beaten up) but when you really drill into the details, Zimmerman looks worse and worse in terms of the role he played in it.

That Voice Stress test was ruled inadmissible at the last bond hearing for obvious reasons. I have no idea why that's been pointed to as proof of innocence.

[bobbyjoe]

That's the interesting thing actually because apparently Florida's definition of Murder 2 doesn't require intent.



http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

In discussing the case Findlaw explains it this way:



http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2012/04/george-zimmerman-arrested-for-2nd-degree-murder.html

Jury instructions here: http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml#

Based on the other stuff you've listed here plus this definition I actually am leaning towards Murder 2 now assuming the prosecution can prove it in court.

I also find it interesting that you can believe Zimmerman had no choice but to defend himself and still find him guilty because this charge looks to hold him accountable for his role in what happened (and for his behaviour during the confrontation and afterwards).

Although Manslaughter of a child seems to carry about 30 years so I wouldn't complain if the jury went that way.



Agreed. All of this combined is simply chilling in my opinion as is the calloused responses we've seen out of people. If I was American I would really hate for this guy to walk simply because of the legal precedent it would set.




That Voice Stress test was ruled inadmissible at the last bond hearing for obvious reasons. I have no idea why that's been pointed to as proof of innocence.

- I think the prosecution fails miserably in its effort to satisfy the "depraved indifference for human life" element which is what makes Murder 2 an overreach.

- It's very clear that Zimmerman's intent wasn't evil or malicious or out of ill will or spite. He was trying to save the day and stop a criminal act from taking place. Add to that, it's clear he was incurring head injuries and it certainly doesn't take a depraved mind to fire a gun at TM.

- The reason the self-defense claim fails is that he was clearly the instigator of the situation and that he in my opinion falls short of the thresh hold necessary to resort to deadly force. Losing a fist fight and a wrestling match doesn't entitle you to the use of deadly force. Perhaps the biggest reason the self-defense claim fails is that George is the only witness to corroborate it and his credibility is extremely low in light of how many lies he's already been caught in.

- The reason the lie detector test is being discussed is that folks think it shows he's innocent, not because folks think it can actuall be used as evidence to acquit. O'Mara wanted this released to taint the jury pool. He wants jurors to have it in the back of their minds that Zimmerman passed the stress test, so it affects the case to that extent. Something like that can generate reasonable doubt.

- Of course, most who are touting this have not listened to the test. Had they done so, I doubt any reasonable person would agree that it was a thorough examination. These tests are greatly limited in that they don't assess stress during open-ended questions. It has to basically be a "yes or no" type question and most liars get caught in the explanation.

It would have been very interesting if GZ was administered a voice stress test about his finances too. We know he lied about that but it would have been interesting to see if the voice stress test caught the lies or not.

- I personally think GZ is telling the truth about at least some of the actual phsyical confrontation (Trayvon slugging him multiple times and him being in great fear) but lying through his broken nose about not confronting him or continuing to follow him after advised not to do so. And that's what I think makes this clearly manslaughter, but clearly not Murder 2. It really is unethical and shameful for prosecutors to overcharge. That's not how our justice system is supposed to work. I have a feeling public perception and support for Zimmerman would be much lower had the charge been Manslaughter. It's a very fundamental concept to our legal system that the punishment should fit the crime, but not be more than the crime warrants. It's very offputting when prosecutors don't stay true to this.

[TheSkeptic]

- I think the prosecution fails miserably in its effort to satisfy the "depraved indifference for human life" element which is what makes Murder 2 an overreach.

- It's very clear that Zimmerman's intent wasn't evil or malicious or out of ill will or spite. He was trying to save the day and stop a criminal act from taking place. Add to that, it's clear he was incurring head injuries and it certainly doesn't take a depraved mind to fire a gun at TM.

- The reason the self-defense claim fails is that he was clearly the instigator of the situation and that he in my opinion falls short of the thresh hold necessary to resort to deadly force. Losing a fist fight and a wrestling match doesn't entitle you to the use of deadly force. Perhaps the biggest reason the self-defense claim fails is that George is the only witness to corroborate it and his credibility is extremely low in light of how many lies he's already been caught in.

- The reason the lie detector test is being discussed is that folks think it shows he's innocent, not because folks think it can actuall be used as evidence to acquit. O'Mara wanted this released to taint the jury pool. He wants jurors to have it in the back of their minds that Zimmerman passed the stress test, so it affects the case to that extent. Something like that can generate reasonable doubt.

- Of course, most who are touting this have not listened to the test. Had they done so, I doubt any reasonable person would agree that it was a thorough examination. These tests are greatly limited in that they don't assess stress during open-ended questions. It has to basically be a "yes or no" type question and most liars get caught in the explanation.

It would have been very interesting if GZ was administered a voice stress test about his finances too. We know he lied about that but it would have been interesting to see if the voice stress test caught the lies or not.

- I personally think GZ is telling the truth about at least some of the actual phsyical confrontation (Trayvon slugging him multiple times and him being in great fear) but lying through his broken nose about not confronting him or continuing to follow him after advised not to do so. And that's what I think makes this clearly manslaughter, but clearly not Murder 2. It really is unethical and shameful for prosecutors to overcharge. That's not how our justice system is supposed to work. I have a feeling public perception and support for Zimmerman would be much lower had the charge been Manslaughter. It's a very fundamental concept to our legal system that the punishment should fit the crime, but not be more than the crime warrants. It's very offputting when prosecutors don't stay true to this.

Fair enough. I'm still waiting to see how the prosecution presents its case but looking at the definitions I'm leaning towards Murder 2. According to the strict definitions it seems to line up but obviously it'll depend on execution in court.

I'm thinking though that the prosecution will use the NEN call to establish ill will (towards TM not in general) and will then cite the actual pulling of the trigger and his behaviour afterwards as evidence that he'd reached a point where Trayvon's life didn't matter (which I think would meet Depraved Mind requirements).

Also, there's new stuff in discovery that suggests Trayvon was shot some 40 feet away from where the confrontation began and that the bullet went through straight from front to back at intermediate range. Allowing at least 1 inch for the end of the gun plus room for the gun and Zimmerman's arm in order to get a perfect shot through the heart there was probably a bit of distance between them by the time he pulled the trigger.

The height of the bullet hole also apparently lines up to a man about Zimmerman's height aiming at a roughly 6 foot victim which makes me doubt his story even more. Zimmerman's DNA was found in one spot on the kid's inner shirt (nowhere else) and apparently the hole in his hoodie and the hole in the shirt were different. That is the stuff that suggests to me that the kid was probably standing and was likely held when Zimmerman pulled the trigger.

Depending on who the defense puts forward, I think that this plus his behaviour afterwards is enough to fill the Depraved Mind requirement although I don't mind Manslaughter.

Also, if they can prove Zimmerman had committed or was attempting to commit a felony (stalking, kidnapping, etc.) and that Trayvon died while he was attempting to do that, that bumps the charge up automatically. To Murder 1 I think in this case but if they go this route they might've gone for Murder 2 in order to demonstrate that Zimmerman hadn't planned to kill Trayvon specifically.

Sorry I can't really go through point by point but based on the stuff that's come out I'm just not completely convinced that the prosecution overcharged. But I'm sure I'll change my mind some by the time the trial comes around. :D

Oh yeah and the Voice Stress Analyzer doesn't catch lies. It looks for signs of deception/stress. If you believe what you're saying, use a different interpretation of a term, or are just really upset about what happened, the results can turn out bad. It's like a polygraph that way and that's why it was thrown out of court. Although it's still helpful for members of law enforcement.

So while Zimmerman likely did pass that doesn't mean he was telling the truth. Just that the machine didn't detect any signs of deception in his voice. That's useful to a certain extent but it's really not something that can be used to confirm his innocence/guilt without corroborating evidence.

[bobbyjoe]

Innocent before "proven" guilty is a loophole?

Of course the irony is that had George Zimmerman not convicted Trayvon Martin of being guilty of a crime and presumed him innocent none of this would have happened.

[Trill Clinton]

while I wait for someone to counter bobbyjoe's points, here is a pic from Jamie Foxx at last nights award show. still keeping Trayvon's memory alive.

http://i49.tinypic.com/1iyfkx.gif

[Blake]

-
- The reason the self-defense claim fails is that he was clearly the instigator of the situation and that he in my opinion falls short of the thresh hold necessary to resort to deadly force. Losing a fist fight and a wrestling match doesn't entitle you to the use of deadly force. Perhaps the biggest reason the self-defense claim fails is that George is the only witness to corroborate it and his credibility is extremely low in light of how many lies he's already been caught in.

You just said a few posts ago that we don't know who attacked first.

Instigating the confrontation because he is a neighborhood watch man is not the same thing as instigating the fight.


I personally think GZ is telling the truth about at least some of the actual phsyical confrontation (Trayvon slugging him multiple times and him being in great fear)


So why do you think he should be guilty of manslaughter when it appears he ” stood his ground”?

[cantthinkofanything]

while I wait for someone to counter bobbyjoe's points, here is a pic from Jamie Foxx at last nights award show. still keeping Trayvon's memory alive.

http://i49.tinypic.com/1iyfkx.gif

Hmmm. That changes things. At first, I was thinking that Zimmerman wasn't guilty. But I like Jaime Foxx.

[Wild Cobra]

Keeping a losers memory alive?

Disgusting.

[Trill Clinton]

Keeping a losers memory alive?

Disgusting.


wow..totally uncalled for.

[Wild Cobra]

wow..totally uncalled for.
If you say so.

Argue about the way things went down, but to do anything to glorify a thug...

Fuck that.

[Trill Clinton]

If you say so.

Argue about the way things went down, but to do anything to glorify a thug...

Fuck that.

he wasn't a thug. even if he was, it doesn't justify his senseless death.

[cantthinkofanything]

If you say so.

Argue about the way things went down, but to do anything to glorify a thug...

Fuck that.

Shit...that's fucked up. I'm with Trill on this one. Regardless of what you might think of Travon's lifestyle, he was still just a kid.

And I don't think Foxx is glorifying a thug. Have no idea what his exact stance on it all is. But my guess is he's just keeping the memory of a kid alive while possibly protesting some backwards laws that might allow Zimmerman or anyone to get away with senselessly killing someone.

And shit...do you really think we should judge men based on what they were like at 17?

[Wild Cobra]

Being suspended from school so many times, threatening a bus driver, and other things...

Really now. Is that the type of things the black community celebrates? Do you really not see this as "thuggish" attitude?

Maybe acceptance of such things is why black people have such a hard time moving up in life.

[Trill Clinton]

Being suspended from school so many times, threatening a bus driver, and other things...

Really now. Is that the type of things the black community celebrates? Do you really not see this as "thuggish" attitude?

Maybe acceptance of such things is why black people have such a hard time moving up in life.


ALL of those straws you grasped are what most kids in Tray's age range do. are those kids who bullied the old lady on the school bus thugs too?

now that your true colors are shown your opinion this case shall be taken with a grain of salt.

[cantthinkofanything]

Being suspended from school so many times, threatening a bus driver, and other things...

Really now. Is that the type of things the black community celebrates? Do you really not see this as "thuggish" attitude?

Maybe acceptance of such things is why black people have such a hard time moving up in life.

You have got to be trolling.

There's tons of white kids doing the same shit. And there's just as many that would if they weren't raised in stable environments. I don't condone any of that but at a certain point, kids will be kids. There's no evidence that I've seen that has Travon as a gun toting gang banger or anything.

[Wild Cobra]

most of those straws you grasped are what most kids in Tray's age range do. are those kids who bullied the old lady on the school bus thugs too?
Most kids?

Really now. Are you insane? And yes, a kid who bullies an old lady is acting "thuggish."

My God...

My problem isn't your understanding that some kids are this mean. It's that you accept the glorification of it.

Both Zimmerman and Martin appear as lowlife scum to me. Neither should be glorified.

[CosmicCowboy]

ALL of those straws you grasped are what most kids in Tray's age range do.

:lmao

That's as outrageous a statement as WC's.

You guys are just at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Trill Clinton]

Most kids?

Really now. Are you insane? And yes, a kid who bullies an old lady is acting "thuggish."

My God...

My problem isn't your understanding that some kids are this mean. It's that you accept the glorification of it.

Both Zimmerman and Martin appear as lowlife scum to me. Neither should be glorified.

so is Trayvon a thug or is he acting "thuggish"?

my problem is you not understanding teens tend to rebel. none of the things you mentioned about him is serious. school suspension? really? did he have a violent criminal background?

correct me if I'm wrong but the definition of a thug is a violent person or a criminal, neither of which was Tray.

[cantthinkofanything]

:lmao

That's as outrageous a statement as WC's.

You guys are just at opposite ends of the spectrum.

WC is at the wrong end of the speculum

[Trill Clinton]

:lmao

That's as outrageous a statement as WC's.

You guys are just at opposite ends of the spectrum.

?

so there aren't a lot of teens that get suspended from school? you ever heard of alternative school? or in school suspensions?

lol what kind of sick person would assassinate a dead child's character? smh

[Frank Dux]

If you say so.

Argue about the way things went down, but to do anything to glorify a thug...

Fuck that.

Do anything to celebrate the murder of a kid...

Fuck that.

[TeyshaBlue]

ALL of those straws you grasped are what most kids in Tray's age range do. are those kids who bullied the old lady on the school bus thugs too?

now that your true colors are shown your opinion this case shall be taken with a grain of salt.

I haven't had alot to say about this case one way or the other. But fuck, man. All kids Tray's age do not do this shit. That's fucked up.

To offer that up as a blanket "Its okay, all kids do this" is as asinine as it is dangerous.

[Halberto]

This thread is still going? lol

[CosmicCowboy]

This thread is still going? lol

Trill and Creepn are obsessed.

[Trill Clinton]

I haven't had alot to say about this case one way or the other. But fuck, man. All kids Tray's age do not do this shit. That's fucked up.

To offer that up as a blanket "Its okay, all kids do this" is as asinine as it is dangerous.

didn't say "all" I said most.

the area Trayvon grew up in and went to school in, most of the young men his age were getting in trouble. it wasn't serious trouble to paint him as a "low life" or "thug" as WC is doing.

No one is saying its okay to get suspended from school but does that mean he is a low life?:wakeup

[Trill Clinton]

Trill and Creepn are obsessed.

is the case still open? when there is a ruling then this thread will no longer go on. and you have contributed many posts to this thread as well, sir:wakeup

[Creepn]

Trill and Creepn are obsessed.

This case to me is like the OJ case to you old folks. I'm invested in this case.

[resistanze]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=193187

lol.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Trill and Creepn are obsessed.

hypocrite

[TeyshaBlue]

This case to me is like the OJ case to you old folks. I'm invested in this case.

:lol

[CosmicCowboy]

hypocrite

Nope. I just respond to stupid ass posts.

Personally I think scumbag #1 met scumbag in training #2 on a dark rainy night, both made mistakes that in retrospect I'm sure they would like do overs on, #1 got his ass whipped and #2 is dead. Tragic? Yeah, I guess. I don't think Trayvon was going to cure cancer and in the bigger scheme of things his death was pretty irrelevant. Kids his age die every day from car crashes, drug OD's, meaningless black on black drive by shootings etc. Zimmerman? meh. A living with his parents loser. Liar? Oh hell yeah.

I keep going back to the facts.

I see nothing to justify a second degree murder conviction.

That is all.

[CosmicCowboy]

This case to me is like the OJ case to you old folks. I'm invested in this case.

Google image Nicole Brown nude with your filter off.

Now THAT was tragic.

with a samurai sword no less.

Zimmerman/Martin???? Pffffft

:lol

[DarrinS]

This case to me is like the OJ case to you old folks. I'm invested in this case.


smh

[Trill Clinton]

Trill and Creepn are obsessed.


http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=193187

lol.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WYr_TbhYNJc/SvOjL7X-YzI/AAAAAAAAAiw/znLoyHDkGIk/obama-shoulder-brush.jpg.gif

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Nope. I just respond to stupid ass posts.

Personally I think scumbag #1 met scumbag in training #2 on a dark rainy night, both made mistakes that in retrospect I'm sure they would like do overs on, #1 got his ass whipped and #2 is dead. Tragic? Yeah, I guess. I don't think Trayvon was going to cure cancer and in the bigger scheme of things his death was pretty irrelevant. Kids his age die every day from car crashes, drug OD's, meaningless black on black drive by shootings etc. Zimmerman? meh. A living with his parents loser. Liar? Oh hell yeah.

I keep going back to the facts.

I see nothing to justify a second degree murder conviction.

That is all.

How do you think that obsession manifests on the internet. You are in here just about as much as they are. Their interests just derive from a different place then yours.

[CosmicCowboy]

No Trill, you and Creep are obsessed with trying to create your new reality that Saint Trayvon was martyred and deserves a 2nd degree murder conviction on Zimmerman just because.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Someone didn't click the link. For all their obsession you and WC are the champs of this thread by a pretty good margin.

[CosmicCowboy]

Someone didn't click the link. For all their obsession you and WC are the champs of this thread by a pretty good margin.

They are obsessed with Trayvon. I may be obsessed with countering stupidity in my spare time (you definitely included) but I could give a shit about Trayvon/George other than calling it as an over reach by the DA and it's not 2nd Degree Murder.

[Trill Clinton]

No Trill, you and Creep are obsessed with trying to create your new reality that Saint Trayvon was martyred and deserves a 2nd degree murder conviction on Zimmerman just because.

go back a few pages and respond to bobby's posts. I think he broke down the timeline pretty accurately and made some good points. for some reason you ignore them:wakeup

sorry for standing up for a innocent child walking home with a bag of skittles and a can of iced tea. he was still a kid and had his entire life ahead of him. you and WC labeling him a 'potential scumbag' and a 'lowlife' is very ignorant and tasteless.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They are obsessed with Trayvon. I may be obsessed with countering stupidity in my spare time (you definitely included) but I could give a shit about Trayvon/George other than calling it as an over reach by the DA and it's not 2nd Degree Murder.

:lol

uh-huh. so then you are obsessed with them (me definitely included) to the tune of posting almost more than the two of creep and trill combined?

and you have been filling in gaps and using confirmation bias to exonerate good ole George just as much if not more. You are emotionally invested in the outcome as evidenced by your raging. Acting coy does not change that.

[Trill Clinton]

:lol

uh-huh. so then you are obsessed with them (me definitely included) to the tune of posting almost more than the two of creep and trill combined?

and you have been filling in gaps and using confirmation bias to exonerate good ole George just as much if not more. You are emotionally invested in the outcome as evidenced by your raging. Acting coy does not change that.

:lol exactly. he's talking about 'facts' and hasn't presented anything.

then when people provide actual facts ranging from eye witness statements, 911 phone calles, criminal history etc, his response is to minimize the value of this innocent child's life and paint Trayvon as this career criminal:lol

[bobbyjoe]

You just said a few posts ago that we don't know who attacked first.

Instigating the confrontation because he is a neighborhood watch man is not the same thing as instigating the fight.




So why do you think he should be guilty of manslaughter when it appears he ” stood his ground”?

The issue is that Zimmerman did not act remotely the way a neighborhood watchman with any semblance of training or common sense would. So, to your statement, I would say he acted like a grossly negligent neighborhood watchman even if he may or may not have thrown the first punch.

Zimmerman was actually trained by one of the Sanford police officers to never carry a weapon when patrolling the area and to not pursue suspicous people. Watchfolks are taught to "observe and report", not to "follow while packing, even when a dispatcher recommends you cease". So not only did he take a gun when he shouldn't have or trail a suspect when he shouldn't have, he inexplicably failed to identify himself. That's awfully negligent and irresponsible and each of these avoidable and voluntary missteps inflamed the situation tremendously.

There's not a person on this board who, if followed late at night and followed more than one time, and then not made privy to the fact the follower was a neighborhood watchman, wouldn't perceive the follower as a threat and be legitimatelyconcerned for his/her safety. So, punches thrown first or not, Zimmerman is clearly the primary reason for the altercation and the intensity of the situation. And each of these missteps were out of his own accord. He could have just as effectively performed his role by waiting at his car, not getting out of it. He made a choice not to disclose to Trayvon who he was and he has no explanation for why he made that choice. This isn't a typical self-defense guys where a guy breaks into your house and you shoot him. FAR from it.

And before anyone responds with the "he wasn't on patrol. He was on his way to the store" that is a veryflawed argument. If all he was doing was going to the store, that's what he would have made the call to the police and then went about his business. That's not what he did. When he continued to look for Trayvon (or walk the area for address information according to him) he was clearly operating in the capacity of a neighbordhood watchman.

[bobbyjoe]

This case to me is like the OJ case to you old folks. I'm invested in this case.

I, like many, was invested in the OJ case out of curiousity given how much I loved football.

The OJ case was so clear cut though in terms of his guilt (except to the jury!) that it wasn't nearly as interesting as this one IMO. I can't recall seeing many cases where one's guilt was so obvious. Still hard to believe 18 years later how quickly the jury acquitted him.

There are so many material facts in dispute and so many facts that are open for interpretation in this case that it really will be a very, very intriguing trial.

This case really could change the way stand your ground is applied and adjudicated in the legal system, even if the actual defense is tradtional self-defense, not SYG. Even though there are much more egregious cases that simply haven't as much garnered media attention, likely because of the interracial aspect of this case.

[Wild Cobra]

correct me if I'm wrong but the definition of a thug is a violent person or a criminal, neither of which was Tray.
I guess we will see if court testimony bears out if he threatened a bus driver or not. Surely his character will come to bear. All that archived internet stuff makes him look pretty bad. The suspensions don't look good for him. I think I'm safe to say that Trayvon was a thug.

The definition of thug varies. Violent or criminal... What do you call using drugs and being part of a "fightclub?" It at least loosely fits the definition you supply.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see Martin as a victim. He could have avoided the situation as easily as Zimmerman could have avoided it. At least Zimmerman called the police.

[Wild Cobra]

I haven't had alot to say about this case one way or the other. But fuck, man. All kids Tray's age do not do this shit. That's fucked up.

To offer that up as a blanket "Its okay, all kids do this" is as asinine as it is dangerous.
Yep, we agree here. Maybe if the people in Trayvon's life took a more active interest in keeping him strait of such matters, he wouldn't be dead.

I can't help but thing Trayvon was taught the "black code" and that's why he's dead.

[Wild Cobra]

This thread is still going? lol
I think alot of what is said is dumb, but at least this thread will be easy to find when the case goes to court.

[Wild Cobra]

This case to me is like the OJ case to you old folks. I'm invested in this case.
Well, I do think OJ was innocent. Does that matter?

[Creepn]

I guess we will see if court testimony bears out if he threatened a bus driver or not. Surely his character will come to bear. All that archived internet stuff makes him look pretty bad. The suspensions don't look good for him. I think I'm safe to say that Trayvon was a thug.

The definition of thug varies. Violent or criminal... What do you call using drugs and being part of a "fightclub?" It at least loosely fits the definition you supply.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see Martin as a victim. He could have avoided the situation as easily as Zimmerman could have avoided it. At least Zimmerman called the police.

Hold on hold on hold on, are you trying to say that Martin was more than a thug than Zimmerman? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Creepn]

Yep, we agree here. Maybe if the people in Trayvon's life took a more active interest in keeping him strait of such matters, he wouldn't be dead.

I can't help but thing Trayvon was taught the "black code" and that's why he's dead.

The black code is about awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation. For example, Cosmic Cowboy says that if a black guy was to walk in his neighborhood, his neighbors would call the cops (but he wouldnt because he will be locked and loaded he says). A black kid being taught would understand that a simple stroll could get the cops on you because of black fear. Although he wasn't doing thing wrong, he cannot be angry about being treated like a criminal and give any reason for the cop to arrest you. Composure is a must. He will understand to try not to harbor resentment that people called the cops on him simply for being free in America because that is the way American life is for black people.

That's like .5 percent of the black code I posted lol.

[Blake]

The issue is that Zimmerman did not act remotely the way a neighborhood watchman with any semblance of training or common sense would. So, to your statement, I would say he acted like a grossly negligent neighborhood watchman even if he may or may not have thrown the first punch.

is there a training course you are specifically referring to that he was supposed to take before he became a volunteer watchman?


Zimmerman was actually trained by one of the Sanford police officers to never carry a weapon when patrolling the area and to not pursue suspicous people. Watchfolks are taught to "observe and report", not to "follow while packing, even when a dispatcher recommends you cease". So not only did he take a gun when he shouldn't have or trail a suspect when he shouldn't have, he inexplicably failed to identify himself. That's awfully negligent and irresponsible and each of these avoidable and voluntary missteps inflamed the situation tremendously.

Flimsy. There is no law or formal protocol that says he has to identify himself and keep his gun at home.


There's not a person on this board who, if followed late at night and followed more than one time, and then not made privy to the fact the follower was a neighborhood watchman, wouldn't perceive the follower as a threat and be legitimatelyconcerned for his/her safety. So, punches thrown first or not, Zimmerman is clearly the primary reason for the altercation and the intensity of the situation. And each of these missteps were out of his own accord. He could have just as effectively performed his role by waiting at his car, not getting out of it. He made a choice not to disclose to Trayvon who he was and he has no explanation for why he made that choice. This isn't a typical self-defense guys where a guy breaks into your house and you shoot him. FAR from it.

It's pure speculation that Z identifying himself would have changed the outcome.

[Blake]

The suspensions don't look good for him. I think I'm safe to say that Trayvon was a thug .

I think it's safe to say you're an idiot.

[Wild Cobra]

The black code is about awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation. For example, Cosmic Cowboy says that if a black guy was to walk in his neighborhood, his neighbors would call the cops (but he wouldnt because he will be locked and loaded he says). A black kid being taught would understand that a simple stroll could get the cops on you because of black fear. Although he wasn't doing thing wrong, he cannot be angry about being treated like a criminal and give any reason for the cop to arrest you. Composure is a must. He will understand to try not to harbor resentment that people called the cops on him simply for being free in America because that is the way American life is for black people.

That's like .5 percent of the black code I posted lol.
Do you expect rebellious kids to listen? It seems pretty possible with the attitude kids often have, he could have said "fuck this, I'm teaching homie a lesson."

[Trill Clinton]

Do you expect rebellious kids to listen? It seems pretty possible with the attitude kids often have, he could have said "fuck this, I'm teaching homie a lesson."

sup homie? is this kid a thug/low life?

http://media.mlive.com/news/detroit_impact/photo/jonathan-hoffman-southfieldjpg-76eebe6bbe099f48.jpg

he was a senior at Farmington Central High School, had had at least two run-ins with police. Court records show he was pulled over on March 17 in nearby Farmington Hills and ticketed for possession of marijuana and drug paraphernalia. He later received a 93-day suspended sentence and was placed on 12 months' probation.

[Wild Cobra]

sup homie? is this kid a thug/low life?

http://media.mlive.com/news/detroit_impact/photo/jonathan-hoffman-southfieldjpg-76eebe6bbe099f48.jpg

he was a senior at Farmington Central High School, had had at least two run-ins with police. Court records show he was pulled over on March 17 in nearby Farmington Hills and ticketed for possession of marijuana and drug paraphernalia. He later received a 93-day suspended sentence and was placed on 12 months' probation.
Hard to say with so few facts. How much spice did they fond in his system?

[Trill Clinton]

lolsmh

[bobbyjoe]

is there a training course you are specifically referring to that he was supposed to take before he became a volunteer watchman?



Flimsy. There is no law or formal protocol that says he has to identify himself and keep his gun at home.



It's pure speculation that Z identifying himself would have changed the outcome.

Yes. When Zimmerman and his neighbors formed the watch, the Sanford Police came to train him and the other neighbors on protocol and best practices and what to do in different situations.

This happened a mere 2 months before the TM incident and it was covered by the Orlando Sentinel.

Also, there is actually a neighborhood watch manual that clearly says to not be armed when patrolling. A Sanford Police officer reaffirmed this point in the training that George attended. He cant plead ignorance and be taken seriously by anyone who's objective.

Wendy Dorival is Sanford's volunteer coordinator for the Police Department. She helped train Zimmerman. She stated that those involved in neighborhood-watch programs are supposed to be "the eyes and ears" for the police, "not a vigilante.” Specifically, she said, members "are not supposed to confront anyone. We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle." She added that carrying and using a gun on patrol violates protocols. Furthermore, the National Sheriffs’ Association, which sponsors the neighborhood-watch program nationwide, is 100% clear in its manual on this point as well: "Patrol members do not carry weapons," have no police power, and should “not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity.” Lastly, not following the guidelines can result in serious consequences: "Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority."

[CosmicCowboy]

Yes. When Zimmerman and his neighbors formed the watch, the Sanford Police came to train him and the other neighbors on protocol and best practices and what to do in different situations.

This happened a mere 2 months before the TM incident and it was covered by the Orlando Sentinel.

Also, there is actually a neighborhood watch manual that clearly says to not be armed when patrolling. A Sanford Police officer reaffirmed this point in the training that George attended. He cant plead ignorance and be taken seriously by anyone who's objective.

Wendy Dorival is Sanford's volunteer coordinator for the Police Department. She helped train Zimmerman. She stated that those involved in neighborhood-watch programs are supposed to be "the eyes and ears" for the police, "not a vigilante.” Specifically, she said, members "are not supposed to confront anyone. We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle." She added that carrying and using a gun on patrol violates protocols. Furthermore, the National Sheriffs’ Association, which sponsors the neighborhood-watch program nationwide, is 100% clear in its manual on this point as well: "Patrol members do not carry weapons," have no police power, and should “not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity.” Lastly, not following the guidelines can result in serious consequences: "Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority."

If I was on his defense team I would probably point out that he didn't leave the house to go on watch, he was going to the store.

Just sayin.

So far there is zero evidence Zimmerman tried to apprehend Martin.

if you got it, show it.

[CosmicCowboy]

BTW, the prosecutor already admitted they have no evidence that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.

I personally think the guy is an asshole but I'm willing to bet the prosecutor can't prove murder 2.

[CosmicCowboy]

Hell, I'll spread it around with you bitches.

$50 to play. 1/1 odds. I will take all comers that are regular posters in this thread.

Kori holds the money.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No one questions your vehemence but the betting bullshit is just machismo nonsense. I would also point out that it flies in the face of your claims of no obsession.

I do think that you picturing yourself on the defense team was a nice touch.

[Trill Clinton]

Hell, I'll spread it around with you bitches.

$50 to play. 1/1 odds. I will take all comers that are regular posters in this thread.

Kori holds the money.

dude..now you're betting on the outcome of a child killer case? you really are obsessed:lol

you really wat this coward to walk free, don't you?

[James David Manning]

sons I want that H.A.L. troll to appear

god bless

[James David Manning]

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[H.A.L.]

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread 200756HERE