Spurs Select F Jeremy Sochan with the 9th Pick in the 2022 NBA Draft

[Pauleta14]

They're clearly so much better without him.

You realize this is totally irrelevant to the point, don't you?

It's the same argument that was used to justify Tre's presence in the roster because "look at the stats when Wemby plays with him!!!" :lol

There are dozens of players that would make this team better

[Pauleta14]

Yeah, Sochan is obviously flawed right now but he's a key piece if this team wants to sniff the Playoffs, and he is still young enough to improve in several areas.

For someone on a rookie contract, he's a huge value.

Of course he's a key piece of this roster, that's the whole point and issue. He shouldn't with a proper FO.

[Obstructed_View]

You realize this is totally irrelevant to the point, don't you?

It's the same argument that was used to justify Tre's presence in the roster because "look at the stats when Wemby plays with him!!!" :lol

There are dozens of players that would make this team better
Yeah I hope he gets hurt soon because they just look like trash with him back in the lineup.

[DAF86]

Sochan coming off the bench as the backup center should be here to stay untill the end of the season, imho.

Obviously you would still be giving him his PF minutes alongside Vic, but I like the rotation Mitch used today.

[TheBallsbreakers]

He doesn't look that bad as the backup at C. Probably because the Pacers have no good big off the bench though.

[100%duncan]

Sochan coming off the bench as the backup center should be here to stay untill the end of the season, imho.

Obviously you would still be giving him his PF minutes alongside Vic, but I like the rotation Mitch used today.

It’s basically a stopgap which is better than nothing.

[DAF86]

Sochan coming off the bench as the backup center should be here to stay untill the end of the season, imho.

Obviously you would still be giving him his PF minutes alongside Vic, but I like the rotation Mitch used today.

1st quarter

CP3, Vassell, Castle, Barnes, Wemby

6 mins mark: Sochan for Wemby (5 on the court: CP3, Vassell, Castle, Barnes, Sochan)

7 mins mark: Tre for CP3, Champ for Castle, Keldon for Barnes (Tre, Vassell, Champ, Keldon, Sochan)

9 mins mark: Wemby for Vassell (Tre, Champ, Keldon, Sochan, Wemby)

2nd quarter

4 mins mark: CP3 for Tre, Vassell for Champ, Castle for Keldon, Barnes for Wemby (CP3, Vassell, Castle, Barnes, Sochan)

8 mins mark: Wemby for Sochan (CP3, Vassell, Castle, Barnes, Wemby)

About the same pattern in the second half and you have:

Wemby: 34 mins
Vassell: 34 mins
CP3: 30 mins
Barnes: 30 mins (maybe less depending on matchups and performance)
Castle: 30 mins (maybe less depending on matchups and performance)
Sochan: 28 mins (maybe more depending on matchups and performance)
Champ: 18 mins (maybe more depending on matchups and performance)
Keldon: 18 mins
Tre: 18 mins

[ginobilized]

I absolutely loved the rotation today.
Nice to have a blowout win in such a publicized game.

Gotta get the Saturday game and we have a chance at getting back on track to finish close to .500 for the season.

Definitely helps when shots are falling from 3.

[Knoxxx]

Sochan 13 and 9 in 17 minutes was real nice. He’s a handful when he’s doing what he does.

[The Truth #6]

Sochan can have great chemistry with Wemby. Alley oops back and forth. Also, he's pretty solid at grabbing a board and getting in transition and making a solid pass. We've been missing all that in his absence. I don't know the stats but it feels like Wemby gets more easy looks with Sochan out there.

[Knoxxx]

The issue with Sochan is consistency. He has these stretches where he goes for 13 and 9 in 17 minutes. Then you double his minutes and he ends up with 15 and 10. I’m giving him a pass due to the oddball injuries this season. When he’s on he’s a delight to watch with his amazing energy and gritty play. Of course he needs to get better on the 3 ball but his shooting touch is not awful. Like the new hair color and go bleep yourself attitude. He was missed in this recent bad stretch of games. Potential to be the X factor for us.

Resign him for a KJ type deal and I’d be loving that.

[scott]

Huge credit to Sochan, he'd really improved his rebounding across the board and it's been a huge benefit for the team (we complain about rebounding, but the Spurs are actually 9th in the league).

Jeremy has increased his OREB% from 6.9 to 10.0 from his rookie season to this season, DREB% from 15.6 to 19.3 and TRB% from 11.0 to 14.7. Kudos.

[The Truth #6]

https://www.nba.com/spurs/videos/jeremy-sochan-highlights-vs-indiana-pacers-spurs-in-paris-1-23-25

Around 1:30 in the 1st Quarter, Sochan takes and swishes a 3 pointer. I watched it like ten times and still can't make sense of what I saw. You see the weird hitch not with his hands or arms but in how he unnaturally crouches and moves vertically out of the crouch. Yet, the delivery and follow through on his hands and arms...looks good? As for the weird hitch, I'm convinced this is something they have to be working on. Likely Jimmy Barron not inventing this hitch, but, I think, studying his free throw form that works fairly well and trying to borrow aspects of that for his 3 point shots.

Again, I don't care about the weird hitch, I guess, if it's followed by decent form when the ball leaves his hands and...I think he's doing that in this shot?

Anyway, the hitch is so distracting it's hard for me to tell what is going on, but I definitely think they are committing to this as his shooting form.

Curious what others actually think.

[jmard5]

I don't understand the hate for Sochan (while he's on his 3rd year). You would appreciate his skills if he were playing for another team.

[Ni-G]

Grass is always greener on the other side and the sky is bluer.
He's 21 getting better, does a lot of shit that does not show on a scorecard and he's always committed.
But there is that not much hate this season expect for Karen14.

[CGD]

I love what he brings to the team. He’s improved a lot this year

[kxs783kms]

I don't understand the hate for Sochan (while he's on his 3rd year). You would appreciate his skills if he were playing for another team.

Because if you're not an All-Star caliber player on this team, people in here are going to cry about it and think you should be traded for another player they're just going to cry about.

[CGD]

Mike Malone had an interesting quote the last time they played the Spurs, in that he thought they were trying to use Wemby similar to how they use Joker on offense. It would make sense that they see Sochan as their Gordon.

[The Truth #6]

I'd like to see Wemby more as our Jokic if possible: orchestrating from the top of the key, less logo heat checks, to a degree, or at least use his shooting gravity to open the floor for players like Champ, Castle, and Sochan who are all good cutters.

[spursparker9]

Didn't watched the game today but watched the highlight.

Wow his chemistry with Wemby is showing sign of brilliance. Last year was really a disaster with fans accusing Sochan is jealous of Wemby and deliberating not passing the ball to him. This year the chemistry is starting to show

[rankingtear]

I'd like to see Wemby more as our Jokic if possible: orchestrating from the top of the key, less logo heat checks, to a degree, or at least use his shooting gravity to open the floor for players like Champ, Castle, and Sochan who are all good cutters.

They tried that last year it was ass and scrapped it.

[Pauleta14]

Grass is always greener on the other side and the sky is bluer.
He's 21 getting better, does a lot of shit that does not show on a scorecard and he's always committed.
But there is that not much hate this season expect for Karen14.

*except :)

And is that your new alt account, scotty? :lmao

[pad300]

Because if you're not an All-Star caliber player on this team, people in here are going to cry about it and think you should be traded for another player they're just going to cry about.

No, that's just not true. People on here will do that even if you are an All-Star caliber player - see the hate Tony Parker had on here for more than a decade... Ridiculous hatred is part of what powers this place.

[cd98]

Anyone that thinks the Spurs should get rid of Sochan need their heads examined. He's got flaws, but he is a solid NBA player. If he could shoot 36% from 3 point range, and I know that's a big "if", he would be the perfect compliment to Wemby. That's all he lacks. His defense gets better every year and he's unselfish. He's athletic and he plays hard. He's also fun, which is good for chemistry. I get people being hot and cold on Vassell, even though I think he is a good player, but Sochan has really shown it this year when he has not been injured.

[cd98]

No, that's just not true. People on here will do that even if you are an All-Star caliber player - see the hate Tony Parker had on here for more than a decade... Ridiculous hatred is part of what powers this place.

You are right. Even more embarrassing is that he was more than just an all-star, he had a hall of fame career here and people still wanted to trade him every season. The only players not to get that treatment were Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili. And maybe David Robinson. Thank goodness for Sean Elliott that Spurstalk wasn't around for most of his career.

[jeebus]

I don't understand the hate for Sochan (while he's on his 3rd year). You would appreciate his skills if he were playing for another team.

Spurs fans have gone full retard since 2020. Not just here but on other sites too. They're even dumber than the old "Austin Daye, Jeff Errors, and a FRP for Kevin Durant/Lebron James/whomever" people from back in the day.

[jmard5]

What's ironic, for years, we needed a defensive forward who can rebound, play physical, and willing to do the dirty job. Now that we have a promising young player who fits this role and a team player, some people are already wanting him out. Perhaps we have grown entitled.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

If he ends up being the fourth best player on our team (meaning we have 2 players besides Wemby who are inarguably better than him) I'd like our chances in the future. He's solid, but hopefully the Spurs don't try to turn him into a #3 option or something.

[Ni-G]

*except :)

And is that your new alt account, scotty? :lmao

Thanks for correcting, mobile auto-correct and English is not my first language so I've missed it.
And I am not Scotty, I'm just a 52 yo bloke form Poland living in England now. Always appreciated SAS basketball even if I was more into Bulls in 90s and took a brake from regular watching NBA in 2010s. Now I am back thanks to Jeremy and became Spurs fan because many guys are likeable on this team.

[z0sa]

I don't hate Sochan, I hate the roles he and others have been repeatedly put into which makes them look foolish and our team lose.

Sochan nailing that 3 was a bigger moment than anyone has brought up yet (here) vs Pacers. If Sochan can just be a passable (35%+) shooter, he's our guy forever and I'm willing to pay him (if I was in the FO). I said as much as early as last season - that he could be a Spur for lifer with his attitude and grit which every dynasty needs.

And yes, I mean dynasty. I want a repeat. It's the only real thing the franchise is missing. People might say 3peat but that's reaching for the stars and requires more luck than anything else. A repeat requires luck but it's more about putting together the right roster at the right time.

[The Truth #6]

They tried that last year it was ass and scrapped it.

Oh yeah, I do recall that. Still worth revisiting at some point because we still don't have a point guard who can attack and disrupt and initiate.

[Mr. Body]

Spurs fans have gone full retard since 2020. Not just here but on other sites too. They're even dumber than the old "Austin Daye, Jeff Errors, and a FRP for Kevin Durant/Lebron James/whomever" people from back in the day.

This site especially. It's like this performative thing-- everything sucks, players suck, franchise sucks -- and then people start believing it. It's the internet in general. A lot of really stupid people trying to impress each other and becoming even more tragically stupid because of it.

[DAF86]

Anyone that thinks the Spurs should get rid of Sochan need their heads examined. He's got flaws, but he is a solid NBA player. If he could shoot 36% from 3 point range, and I know that's a big "if", he would be the perfect compliment to Wemby. That's all he lacks. His defense gets better every year and he's unselfish. He's athletic and he plays hard. He's also fun, which is good for chemistry. I get people being hot and cold on Vassell, even though I think he is a good player, but Sochan has really shown it this year when he has not been injured.

The problem I see with Sochan is his long term fit next to Castle. One (if not both of them) will need to fix that shot as soon as possible. I like them both as players, but in today's NBA having two shooters as bad as them in the same lineup is a huge handicap.

At the end of the day, it really all comes down to knocking down shots. Look at the Heat from a couple of years back, consistently making it far into the playoffs with a bunch of g-leaguers that couldn't do much more than hitting open 3 pointers.

[Pauleta14]

Thanks for correcting, mobile auto-correct and English is not my first language so I've missed it.
And I am not Scotty, I'm just a 52 yo bloke form Poland living in England now. Always appreciated SAS basketball even if I was more into Bulls in 90s and took a brake from regular watching NBA in 2010s. Now I am back thanks to Jeremy and became Spurs fan because many guys are likeable on this team.

Cool, nice to know you.

It's a much better way to interact than going at me as if I was hater or something, don't u think?

If you're new on ST, know that some in here (with the highest post count) act as if it's their private club and go at anyone no having the same narrative. Hence the (cute) "bullying" I've been/am the target of. But FYI I've never hated on any player nor gone at any poster that didn't come at me first...

As for Sochan, I get that as a polish you might have taken some of my posts as hateful, but know it's never been at him but the complementary pieces that I wish we'd see growing next to Wemby (more in and out player)

I've purposely said each time I criticized him that I'd love to be wrong bc ultimately I want all of them to succeed bc they play for my team. Despite the qualities I reckon he has I just keep finding the balance often negative with his offensive limitations, maybe because of the role he has been given.

I think he's more a role player, 4th option, plug in depending on matchups etc, not a 2nd/3rd option as he's been used up until now.

PS/ I was just being sarcastic correcting you because I thought you were one of the many alts from those weirdos I mentioned. I'm french (living in the UK too) and propbably do more mistakes than you ;)

[Spurminator]

If Sochan can just be a passable (35%+) shooter, he's our guy forever and I'm willing to pay him (if I was in the FO). I said as much as early as last season - that he could be a Spur for lifer with his attitude and grit which every dynasty needs.

I'm not here to suggest a 30% 3PP is "good," but the difference between that and 35% is one more make per 20 shots, which means it wouldn't make a difference in most games.

One more make every 10, and all of a sudden he'd be an elite shooter but still making less than one more 3P on a per-game basis.

I don't really have a point here, just percentages are funny.

[onechance87]

Really good defender,But his offense is still bad.Good teams will expose that like many times already.Double team
wemby or clog the paint.And dare guys like sochan and castle to beat them by making outside shots.Sochan should
remain on the bench.

[Mr. Body]

Really good defender,But his offense is still bad.Good teams will expose that like many times already.Double team
wemby or clog the paint.And dare guys like sochan and castle to beat them by making outside shots.Sochan should
remain on the bench.

How do you have spaces between your words but not your punctuation.

[dn0774]

I'm not here to suggest a 30% 3PP is "good," but the difference between that and 35% is one more make per 20 shots, which means it wouldn't make a difference in most games.

One more make every 10, and all of a sudden he'd be an elite shooter but still making less than one more 3P on a per-game basis.

I don't really have a point here, just percentages are funny.

The problem with Jeremy (and most bad 3pt shooters) is he makes 30% of his 3 point shots on absolutely wide open, defender standing back begging him to shoot, shots. That is a completely different shot diet than a typical 35% 3 point shooter who is at least still being respected by his defender (not sagging in lane, closing out on shooter).

Part of it is the math behind his shooting; he wont hit wide open 3s enough to negate the value of having an extra defender who can sag off Sochan and swipe at drivers/contest in the paint/play passing lanes/harass Wemby.

The other part is human nature; frankly, his shot looks bad whether it goes in or not. The movie Moneyball touched on how it is human nature that if something looks unorthodox/awkward people are likely to devalue it more (Moneyball showed a pitcher who throws sidearm to demonstrate this). Sochan has an awkward shot and other players instinctively think "let him shoot" when he gets the ball on the perimeter. This can be overcome if the math of his shot eventually turns to the point where coaches want him covered but that is seeming less likely to happen now that we are in Sochans 3rd year and its not meaningfully improved.

I like Sochan as a player, he has good defensive competitiveness and a strong frame with good size. He and Wemby clearly have some chemistry in the open court (less so in the half court imo) and get along well. I hope (and expect) the Spurs to retain him for a fair amount, I would just like to see his role be that of 1st guy off the bench, have some nights where he plays 35 mins and some nights where he plays 15 mins depending on opponent/matchups and to embrace that role. Sochan as a long term starter going forward puts a low ceiling on what our offense could ever become in the modern NBA.

[onechance87]

How do you have spaces between your words but not your punctuation.

sorry for bad english bro.

[Spurminator]

The problem with Jeremy (and most bad 3pt shooters) is he makes 30% of his 3 point shots on absolutely wide open, defender standing back begging him to shoot, shots. That is a completely different shot diet than a typical 35% 3 point shooter who is at least still being respected by his defender (not sagging in lane, closing out on shooter).

Part of it is the math behind his shooting; he wont hit wide open 3s enough to negate the value of having an extra defender who can sag off Sochan and swipe at drivers/contest in the paint/play passing lanes/harass Wemby.

Totally. What would be interesting is if he gets up to 35% shooting them wide open (1 more make out of 20), suddenly teams might be less likely to sag off him. Which might lead to a drop in %, which leads teams to sag off him again, and around we go. All because of one more make per 20.

Ultimately he should keep shooting them when he's open. If teams are going to sag off you might as well punish them 30% of the time, and that's probably a better success rate than trying to make something happen against a 5-on-4, especially since he's not an especially gifted playmaker.

[scott]

Totally. What would be interesting is if he gets up to 35% shooting them wide open (1 more make out of 20), suddenly teams might be less likely to sag off him. Which might lead to a drop in %, which leads teams to sag off him again, and around we go. All because of one more make per 20.

Ultimately he should keep shooting them when he's open. If teams are going to sag off you might as well punish them 30% of the time, and that's probably a better success rate than trying to make something happen against a 5-on-4, especially since he's not an especially gifted playmaker.

Alternatively, if Jeremy could reliably attack the space when he is left open, that can be similarly effective as just shooting. Not saying it's even possible for him to come close to this, but that's a thing that makes Giannis so effective despite not being a great shooter, if you give him space on the perimeter he will attack it and once he gets going downhill you are toast.

I think the answer lies somewhere in between (Jeremy improving his shooting and continuing to develop his ability to attack space), but just saying that there is more than one way to make teams pay for leaving you open

[rascal]

If he wasn't on the Spurs would you want to be trading for him?

[ambchang]

They tried that last year it was ass and scrapped it.

The games are just too different. Jokic doesn’t just stick to the high post. He uses his strength and girth to go shoot these short range jumpers at a high efficiency. This year he’s shoot 40% of his shots from 3-10 feet at 61%! That’s basically equivalent to a 40% 3 pt shooter, not to mention he can often rebound his own miss when he’s that close to the basket. This forces the defence to swarm as it is a high efficiency shot and that opens up shooters and cutters.

Wemby on the other hand shoots on 14% of his shots from that distance and at a not incredible 48%. Which is equivalent to a 32% 3 pt shot, with better rebounding position. It’s still good, not great and defences would rather have wemby shoot that shot than for him to got for a layup with he is shooting at an incredible 82% so far this year. Or let him shoot 3s. Which is why wemby seems to be making his 3 a weapon to force the defence out and open up cutting lanes for his teammates. Issue is that sochan is pretty much the only decent cutter on the team because champaigne and maybe Barnes are the only true shooting threats which means that teams can still guard wemby while stuffing the lane.

Wemby in the post would let him average 35 a game but he would expend so much energy there because his teammates can’t really keep the defense honest from outside. I’m still a fan of wemby isoing on the right too corner three area, with one player at each corner then the other two players on the high left. The other four players would have to constantly screen and cut to create passing opportunities for wemby and when all things fail wemby can just score.

[Strategic]

If he wasn't on the Spurs would you want to be trading for him? No way

[GAustex]

Jeremy would be good on a good team who needs someone to do the guarding and dirty work. Spurs suck so they need more and Jeremy does not have it.
Kind of like Draymond.

[John B]

Jeremy would be good on a good team who needs someone to do the guarding and dirty work. Spurs suck so they need more and Jeremy does not have it.
Kind of like Draymond.

Draymond looks bad when Dubs are struggling. Same with Sochan.

[GAustex]

Draymond looks bad when Dubs are struggling. Same with Sochan.
When Draymond does not have all that excellence around him he becomes below average. I think Jeremey the same

[Pauleta14]

Jeremy isn't the same at all.

Dray is his ceiling if he learns to shoot, pass and think on the court

[itzsoweezee]

Jeremy isn't the same at all.

Dray is his ceiling if he learns to shoot, pass and think on the court

Yeah. Draymond’s bbiq is in the top 1% of nba players. He almost ALWAYS makes the right decision on both ends of the court.

[ace3g]

Still ways to go but release is getting smoother

https://x.com/Matthew_Tynan/status/1888401565796413888

[objective]

2.5 years into working on his shooting and he's still getting end of quarter shot clock violations because he won't shoot when wide open

Gotta get rid of this guy.

[polandprzem]

Still ways to go but release is getting smoother

https://x.com/Matthew_Tynan/status/1888401565796413888

love it

[Knoxxx]

He should be taking 20 shots a game, easy. You don’t get better at shooting by not shooting.

[spursistan]

2.5 years into working on his shooting and he's still getting end of quarter shot clock violations because he won't shoot when wide open


Gotta get rid of this guy.


I said it in the other thread. Relative to his draft placement, he is easily the most underwhelming draft pick in Spurs history judging by purely basketball reasons (Primo case aside)

[spursince#99]

Jeremy isn't the same at all.

Dray is his ceiling if he learns to shoot, pass and think on the court


If only others could comprehend this.

[KobesAchilles]

In all honesty and not through Spurs colored glasses. Which team would offer him more than 12 million a year? I’d offer him a 4 year 40 million dollar deal and let his agent look for another offer to match

[objective]

Some poorly managed team would offer him the MLE, which is all he's worth at most.

He's basically Kyle Anderson. Solid though unremarkable defender, sometimes thinks he's a point guard, can't or won't shoot. Difference is Kyle had a higher ball IQ that coaches trusted to make the right play.

Kyle never earned nor deserved more than the mle, but he didn't have that top 10 pick shine either to get overpaid from.

[DPG21920]

I dont know what people want from that draft; even with hindsight only guy I take for sure over Sochan that went after him is Jalen Williams. Maybe you can argue Eason, but that’s close.

He’s a very solid player with some offensive warts but still an impact guy IMO

[Strategic]

It won’t bother me if they keep him for a lowball figure. He’s just too small, and his “island time” demeanor will have a hard time translating to the league.

[Knoxxx]

With his 7’ wingspan if he’d develop any type of reliable floater in the lane with a high release that could be his go to. Or at least draw enough defensive attention to where defenders couldn’t totally overplay his kickout passss like they do now.

[rascal]

He should be taking 20 shots a game, easy. You don’t get better at shooting by not shooting.

No he shouldn't. He hasn't earned the right to be a big part of the offense, taking 20 shots a game.

[Obstructed_View]

He should be taking 20 shots a game, easy. You don’t get better at shooting by not shooting.
You develop a shot by working in the off season. When he came in still shooting free throws one handed it was pretty obvious he hadn't touched a basketball during the summer.

[ismael-robert]

We're tanking he should have green light like castle

[objective]

I don't even think his 7-0 wingspan is a trustworthy number. Was he ever measured at a combine? Or official fiba camp numbers?

People get stuff wrong with that all the time. Dejounte only had an on record measurement of 6-9.5 but lots of people would go on and on about a 7 foot wingspan for him

Not that a +4 on his height would be surprising, just doesn't pass the eye test for me

[polandprzem]

You develop a shot by working in the off season. When he came in still shooting free throws one handed it was pretty obvious he hadn't touched a basketball during the summer.
He came in shooting with both hands.

That's how you watch him play

[Robz4000]

IMO, his shooting and form have improved. Problem is his confidence in it. Starting to feel a lot of the team isn't as bad as we think; the coaching is just really fucking with everything.

[Pauleta14]

If only others could comprehend this.

Add that to the list of taboo topics that gets the fanbase overly sensitive. Probably the hair... ^^


In all honesty and not through Spurs colored glasses. Which team would offer him more than 12 million a year? I’d offer him a 4 year 40 million dollar deal and let his agent look for another offer to match

I would have tried (still possible?) to involve him in a trade and wouldn't sign him. Period.

Places are limited and we can find so many other profiles to develop with a lot less limitations.

Whatever we pay him will be too much, not just financially but in terms of playing time and long term investment

It's not just the shooting, it's the IQ, the immaturity, the clumsiness etc There's way too much to work on and we've barely seen any progress in year 3 already

[RC_Drunkford]

IMO, his shooting and form have improved. Problem is his confidence in it. Starting to feel a lot of the team isn't as bad as we think; the coaching is just really fucking with everything.

a lot of our players are being played out of position and have roles that don't fit their strengths.

[exstatic]

You develop a shot by working in the off season. When he came in still shooting free throws one handed it was pretty obvious he hadn't touched a basketball during the summer.

He prepared and played in the FIBA Olympic qualifiers.

[CorrectCrusader]

Jeremy isn't the same at all.

Dray is his ceiling if he learns to shoot, pass and think on the court

Do not EVER compare Sochans defense to Drays.

[Ni-G]

Somehow I know that if Spurs would trade him, he would roast them from behind the line.

[scott]

I dont know what people want from that draft; even with hindsight only guy I take for sure over Sochan that went after him is Jalen Williams. Maybe you can argue Eason, but that’s close.

He’s a very solid player with some offensive warts but still an impact guy IMO

If we had a crystal ball and knew the future of all of these players, JWill, Duren, Eason, LaRavia, Braun and Kessler all would have been better picks than Sochan... but we don't have a crystal ball so you're right that we shouldn't fret too much. It's not like Sochan was an obvious reach - he went around where folks expected him to. The scouting reports highlighted all of the areas that needed to be developed, and our development staff hasn't delivered results in that area.

With all that said, we just need to make sure we don't turn a draft pick that didn't fully hit into a big, long term mistake by overpaying him for an extension that he hasn't earned yet, betting on the upside. 4 year deal just under the MLE seems like it would be correct. We'll see what happens. Whatever they save on Sochan's extension they should invest into the developmental staff.

[LeBowen]

I was down on him after the last season, but he somewhat won me over at the beginning of this one. He played with a purpose.
Then he got moved to backup C and all the positive momentum he had going was gone.

Jumpshot aside, my biggest issue with him is that he entered a phase of not knowing what to do yet again and not all of it is on the position he's playing.
Early on in the season every time he got the ball in the paint it looked like he had a plan and knew how it's going to play out.
Right now he just thinks about the very next thing that's going to happen and ignores everything else.
It's like teams are baiting him into drives because whenever he gets into the paint it's easy to shut him down and then he makes bad decisions, turns the ball over or just wastes time on the clock.

Some of his issues are obviously Mitch's fault because none of our limited players have looked good as of late, they need to be put in roles that are strictly defined so they don't overthink it.
But a lot of his issues are fundamental and I have no idea what's PATFO's plan regarding his extension.
Like a month ago I wrote I'd be happy with 80 to 90/5, but if he doesn't improve his level of play, that figure will keep dropping. Right now he's playing like someone who might not be worth more than 50/5.

[Seventyniner]

Some of his issues are obviously Mitch's fault because none of our limited players have looked good as of late, they need to be put in roles that are strictly defined so they don't overthink it.
But a lot of his issues are fundamental and I have no idea what's PATFO's plan regarding his extension.
Like a month ago I wrote I'd be happy with 80 to 90/5, but if he doesn't improve his level of play, that figure will keep dropping. Right now he's playing like someone who might not be worth more than 50/5.

50/5 isn't even MLE money. I bet Sochan would get plenty of MLE offers if he makes it free agency. If other teams had cap space they would offer at least 75/4 imo.

I would be very happy if the Spurs extend him for 80/5, and 90/5 would still be good. 100/5 is about the breakeven point for me.

[LeBowen]

50/5 isn't even MLE money. I bet Sochan would get plenty of MLE offers if he makes it free agency. If other teams had cap space they would offer at least 75/4 imo.

I would be very happy if the Spurs extend him for 80/5, and 90/5 would still be good. 100/5 is about the breakeven point for me.

I'd rather let him walk with nothing in return than offer him 100/5.
Castle and him won't be able to play together for some time, he's just not worth that money.
Shooting issues aside, what does he even excel at? He's a good defender, solid rebounder, but players who can't shoot need to be elite at something.
He's an average athlete for his size.

[KobesAchilles]

50/5 isn't even MLE money. I bet Sochan would get plenty of MLE offers if he makes it free agency. If other teams had cap space they would offer at least 75/4 imo.

I would be very happy if the Spurs extend him for 80/5, and 90/5 would still be good. 100/5 is about the breakeven point for me.
You’d be happy if the Spurs got ripped off? No team is going to offer him that amount of money. Even with the MLE it wouldn’t be a 4 year deal. Maybe 2. But I would love to have a list of teams that would pay 20 million a year for 11 points, 7 rebounds, and non existent shooting. Dude is making half a 3 a game. Seriously the dude can’t shoot and it’s getting worse. And you think there will be teams lining up for him? Which teams?

If we gave a role player a 5 year deal I would be pissed. 3 year 36 at best.

[dn0774]

My biggest gripe with Sochan is that we're in year 3 and it still feels like he doesn't have any spots on the floor where he can credibly shoot from. If its not Sochan getting a dunk, the defense just isn't concerned about it. I was watching the Magic feed of the game on Saturday and at one point Sochan got an open push shot in the lane from about 8 feet, basically a layup for an NBA player, and he scuffed it badly and the Magic announcers went kind of quiet, seemingly surprised.

Sochans offensive comp is often considered to be Aaron Gordon, but Gordan actually has multiple spots on the floor and in the key that you feel like he can reliably shoot from and defenses treat it as such. Sochan doesn't have that and it is getting worse as defenses respect him less and less, the word is out around the league that he is a complete non-shooter and doesn't even want to shoot and when he does it looks funky.

Please don't overpay this guy, offer an extension commensurate with a 7th/8th man and play him in that role. He hasn't meaningfully improved since his rookie year despite getting lots of playing time/usage. He isn't the next Draymond, he isn't even the next Aaron Gordon. I do think with the right coaching and scheme he can be an effective player and have big games on occasion.

[Kevin]

Sochan needs to be shopped this summer. The moment he gets paid he'll be another KJ/Dev contract. Plus he doesn't fit with Castle.

I've learned my lesson about paying offensive versus defensive role players. Let someone else do it. Sochan plus a pick in the 10ish range should land a nice player in theory.

[LeBowen]

My biggest gripe with Sochan is that we're in year 3 and it still feels like he doesn't have any spots on the floor where he can credibly shoot from. If its not Sochan getting a dunk, the defense just isn't concerned about it. I was watching the Magic feed of the game on Saturday and at one point Sochan got an open push shot in the lane from about 8 feet, basically a layup for an NBA player, and he scuffed it badly and the Magic announcers went kind of quiet, seemingly surprised.

Exactly my issue as I mentioned in the previous post.
It feels like opponents are baiting him into dribbling the ball into the paint because they know he's not reliable outside the restricted area.
He falls for it every single time, gets into the paint and doesn't know what to do because he's got low processing power and didn't think of how the situation can play out before he tried attacking the paint.

And a lot of those dunks are by design because he's the least threatening player on the floor and you have to give something up.


Sochans offensive comp is often considered to be Aaron Gordon, but Gordan actually has multiple spots on the floor and in the key that you feel like he can reliably shoot from and defenses treat it as such. Sochan doesn't have that and it is getting worse as defenses respect him less and less, the word is out around the league that he is a complete non-shooter and doesn't even want to shoot and when he does it looks funky.

Gordon? We'd kill to have Gordon.
One of the best athletes in the league even now after some injuries and he can actually shoot the ball. Nothing special, but he's at 34% on almost 3 attempts since he got to Denver.


Please don't overpay this guy, offer an extension commensurate with a 7th/8th man and play him in that role. He hasn't meaningfully improved since his rookie year despite getting lots of playing time/usage. He isn't the next Draymond, he isn't even the next Aaron Gordon. I do think with the right coaching and scheme he can be an effective player and have big games on occasion.

I often wonder how would people rate Jeremy if it wasn't for Rodman cosplay, if he looked like an average NBA wing.

Imo, the most sensible decision would be not to extend him this summer if he doesn't accept 50 to 60/5 and let him fight for a better contract next season.
Yeah, he'll be RFA and some teams could offer more, but that's the risk I'd rather take than have another overpaid player on the roster, as Kevin said.

[scott]

We pulled Lonnie's QO when he was a RFA, and no one was really too upset about it... honestly, is Sochan's developmental track any better than what Lonnie showed in his time here? They are completely different players, but does anyone feel better about Jeremy's future than you did about Lonnie's midway through his 3rd season?

That's kind of where I am at this point.

[Knoxxx]

I don't even think his 7-0 wingspan is a trustworthy number. Was he ever measured at a combine? Or official fiba camp numbers?

People get stuff wrong with that all the time. Dejounte only had an on record measurement of 6-9.5 but lots of people would go on and on about a 7 foot wingspan for him

Not that a +4 on his height would be surprising, just doesn't pass the eye test for me

You got me it’s 6-11.75. As far as the height, yeah I think he dodge combine measurements and the 6-8” looks like an in shoes height. I can’t imagine he’s much over 6-7” barefoot. For that reason I think he dodged an official measurement for the draft.

[LeBowen]

We pulled Lonnie's QO when he was a RFA, and no one was really too upset about it... honestly, is Sochan's developmental track any better than what Lonnie showed in his time here? They are completely different players, but does anyone feel better about Jeremy's future than you did about Lonnie's midway through his 3rd season?

That's kind of where I am at this point.

Two completely different cases, tbh.
Lonnie was someone who had shown flashes in every aspect of the game, had some amazing performances, but it was obvious he'll never put it together.

Jeremy has been consistent, but in my opinion he hasn't shown anything if we're talking high ceiling. His best game was when he played great defense on Ant and that's his role.
A potentially very good point of attack defender and a solid rebounder who's a negative on offense. Solid situational player to have, but how much is that player worth in current CBA?
If Fox/Castle/Wemby are our starters for the next 5 or so years, that automatically excludes Jeremy from even being in consideration for the starting lineup. We need wings who can shoot and there's simply no going around it.

[Seventyniner]

We pulled Lonnie's QO when he was a RFA, and no one was really too upset about it... honestly, is Sochan's developmental track any better than what Lonnie showed in his time here? They are completely different players, but does anyone feel better about Jeremy's future than you did about Lonnie's midway through his 3rd season?

That's kind of where I am at this point.

Sochan's archetype is far rarer than Lonnie's, so average production given that archetype is worth more money.

A 100/5 extension starts at $17M and would only be 10% of the cap when it kicks in, equivalent to $14M now. Going by % of the cap, that's less than Keldon is making now and half of Vassell.

I'm an optimist, though. I think Castle's shooting will improve enough that if the Spurs can get a better version of Champangie, a lineup of Fox/Castle/[Champ upgrade]/Sochan/Wemby will have adequate shooting. Three shooters on the floor generally isn't enough, but five isn't necessary.

[Light]

Exactly my issue as I mentioned in the previous post.
It feels like opponents are baiting him into dribbling the ball into the paint because they know he's not reliable outside the restricted area.
He falls for it every single time, gets into the paint and doesn't know what to do because he's got low processing power and didn't think of how the situation can play out before he tried attacking the paint.


The problem is that he's playing out of position and having to go against bigger players in the paint. His (limited) ability to post up players and get to his turnaround fadeaway is pretty much neutered now.

[scott]

Two completely different cases, tbh.
Lonnie was someone who had shown flashes in every aspect of the game, had some amazing performances, but it was obvious he'll never put it together.

Of course they are completely different... but as you said, Lonnie has shown flashes, and had some amazing performances... moreso than maybe Jeremy has to this point. Was it more obvious by halfway through Lonnie's 3rd season that he'd never put it together than it is for Sochan? What are the odds "Sochan puts it together"? Have we seen any definitive signs that he will? What are they?


Jeremy has been consistent, but in my opinion he hasn't shown anything if we're talking high ceiling. His best game was when he played great defense on Ant and that's his role.
A potentially very good point of attack defender and a solid rebounder who's a negative on offense. Solid situational player to have, but how much is that player worth in current CBA?
If Fox/Castle/Wemby are our starters for the next 5 or so years, that automatically excludes Jeremy from even being in consideration for the starting lineup. We need wings who can shoot and there's simply no going around it.

Yeah, sounds like Sochan is just a role player. MLE deal or nothing at this point for him, tbh.

[rascal]

Yeah, sounds like Sochan is just a role player. MLE deal or nothing at this point for him, tbh.

Yes, this is his third year and he has been given a big chance with starters minutes and chances to improve his game in different roles.

Most teams would not have given him the minutes and opportunities he's gotten with the Spurs. Spurs need to see him as a role player who comes off the bench and not over pay him.

[ambchang]

I’ve been the biggest sochan fanboy around and even if he pissed if he gets 5/100 at this point. The last few weeks have been huge disappointments because he’s again being played out of position. Backup C? What the hell is that? Stick him at PF, get him to cut to the lane, rebound, defend. That’s it. Why complicate things?

[Extra Stout]

Sochan is a terrific bench PF and should be paid accordingly. If someone wants to pay him more in the hopes he becomes something more, wish him well.

[RC_Drunkford]

I’ve been the biggest sochan fanboy around and even if he pissed if he gets 5/100 at this point. The last few weeks have been huge disappointments because he’s again being played out of position. Backup C? What the hell is that? Stick him at PF, get him to cut to the lane, rebound, defend. That’s it. Why complicate things?

It‘s the Spurs way. We have to play players out of position so CP3 is happy.

[Seventyniner]

Looks like I've got the unpopular take this time. You guys do realize that 90/5 is basically MLE money, right? Sochan would easily get a MLE offer if he hits free agency, even if he doesn't improve over the next season plus.

The Spurs aren't going to need their forwards to be big scorers with Wemby/Fox/Castle as the core. Sochan doesn't provide any shooting but he can contribute in many other areas while having a low usage rate.

[SpursBills]

Looks like I've got the unpopular take this time. You guys do realize that 90/5 is basically MLE money, right? Sochan would easily get a MLE offer if he hits free agency, even if he doesn't improve over the next season plus.

The Spurs aren't going to need their forwards to be big scorers with Wemby/Fox/Castle as the core. Sochan doesn't provide any shooting but he can contribute in many other areas while having a low usage rate.

I've defended Sochan more than most here, and I still have high hopes for him. But with the new cap rules, there is an emphasis on not getting yourself into bad long term contracts. I think he can be more in the future, but for now Sochan is a one way specialist who excels at primarily perimeter defense and cutting for easy baskets. That doesn't mean he's useless by any means, and he's still got a long runway. But as of right now it looks like a tricky fit. I've said before the best comp right now for his contract is Okongwu from 2 years ago - top 10 defense-first pick best used as a backup big on their current teams.

Per 100 possessions during their 3rd year:
Sochan: 21.5p/13r/5a/1.6st/1.5bl on 56% eFG
Okongwu: 20.5p/15r/2.1a/1.4st/2.6bl on 64% eFG
Neither has a 3 pointer to speak of

Okongwu slightly older, slightly better DPM compared to Sochan

Okongwu got 4/62 at the time which was a reasonable contract, I don't honestly see an argument for Sochan getting a significantly better contract as of this time - certainly if in the next 4 years he develops a consistent 3 pointer and improves his handles, his age 25 contract will be far more valuable but at this time 16 a year is probably market value honestly.

[KobesAchilles]

Looks like I've got the unpopular take this time. You guys do realize that 90/5 is basically MLE money, right? Sochan would easily get a MLE offer if he hits free agency, even if he doesn't improve over the next season plus.

The Spurs aren't going to need their forwards to be big scorers with Wemby/Fox/Castle as the core. Sochan doesn't provide any shooting but he can contribute in many other areas while having a low usage rate.
It’s not that it’s unpopular it’s just not seen as logical from my standpoint. There are 3 main questions/flaws with your premise:

1. you keep saying he will easily get the MLE from other teams. What other teams? Which team will be like we need to pay $20 million a year for a mediocre big man who can’t shoot the ball. And even if some team ( I seriously doubt it) would offer him that why would we start our offer there? That’s just stupid business. Let him hit the market and see what he’s worth. Then make a decision from there.

2. How does his game fit alongside Wemby at all? Explain What he brings to the table that makes you think him and Wemby will fit together going forward. Bc offensively he is unplayable next to Wemby. And don’t just say he will magically learn to shoot 3s. He’s making less than half a 3 a game. He isn’t going to be a great shooter next year.

Also why would we sign him to a 5 year deal? Explain what he has shown that makes us want him for the next 5 years. That’s is seriously a long time to have a player. Especially a player who doesn’t fit at all with Wemby.

[Seventyniner]

Okongwu got 4/62 at the time which was a reasonable contract, I don't honestly see an argument for Sochan getting a significantly better contract as of this time - certainly if in the next 4 years he develops a consistent 3 pointer and improves his handles, his age 25 contract will be far more valuable but at this time 16 a year is probably market value honestly.

It's funny that you bring up Okongwu as a comp. His contract started at 10% of the cap, which is exactly where a 100/5 or 77/4 contract for Sochan would start.

Okongwu's contract is a bit smaller overall because his annual raises are only 7.1% instead of the maximum 8.5%.

[Seventyniner]

It’s not that it’s unpopular it’s just not seen as logical from my standpoint. There are 3 main questions/flaws with your premise:

1. you keep saying he will easily get the MLE from other teams. What other teams? Which team will be like we need to pay $20 million a year for a mediocre big man who can’t shoot the ball. And even if some team ( I seriously doubt it) would offer him that why would we start our offer there? That’s just stupid business. Let him hit the market and see what he’s worth. Then make a decision from there.

2. How does his game fit alongside Wemby at all? Explain What he brings to the table that makes you think him and Wemby will fit together going forward. Bc offensively he is unplayable next to Wemby. And don’t just say he will magically learn to shoot 3s. He’s making less than half a 3 a game. He isn’t going to be a great shooter next year.

Also why would we sign him to a 5 year deal? Explain what he has shown that makes us want him for the next 5 years. That’s is seriously a long time to have a player. Especially a player who doesn’t fit at all with Wemby.

1) Teams offering full MLE contracts to rotation players is not uncommon. It's tricky to project 2026 free agency since there are two drafts, one full offseason, and a trade deadline in between but I could see teams like the Grizzlies, Clippers, Magic, and (lol) Kings offering a full MLE. Even the Thunder are below the tax line and could offer it.
2) Sochan's defense works great with Wemby, and while the offensive fit isn't nearly as seamless I think Sochan can work as a cutter if there's enough spacing with the rest of the lineup. Sochan would shoot few if any threes. That would require Castle becoming a respectable three-point shooter and having a shooting threat at SF so it certainly isn't guaranteed.
3) If the Spurs think he's worth signing to a 4-year contract, adding the 5th year makes sense for the team because the annual raises of 8.5% are less than the anticipated cap raises of 10%. In tems of cap percentage, even a deal with max raise sizes is essentially declining. Sochan could even sign a deal like Okongwu's that doesn't have max raises. And if the Spurs don't think Sochan fits next to Wemby at all then they shouldn't give him an extension period.

[RC_Drunkford]

Sochan is a top 10 isolation defender in the NBA and an elite roll man creating 1.5 PPP. He also shoots a higher percentage from 0-3 feet than some All-Stars. The issue is that he never plays his natural position. His stats going down after a strong start to the season should make it possible for the Spurs to lock him up on a relatively cheap contract. I'd still look for an upgrade as a starting 4 in the offseason, but they should try to extend him.

[Raven]

he needs to return to playing 38 minutes per game or so.

[Mal]

Sochan will get 100/5 min offers. He is just 21, plays good defense, plays multiple positions and is improving every year. He`s got good chemistry with Wemby and Fox. Spurs have issues with coaching being poor, so Sochan`s lack of shooting looks like bigger deal than it really is.

[LeBowen]

He also shoots a higher percentage from 0-3 feet than some All-Stars.

This is such a non-stat because most of his shots are uncontested.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shooting

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shots-dash

He's at 66% at 0-5ft range, with 75% of those makes being assisted, 126-189.
18-22 alley-oops, 47-56 dunks.
61-111 on layups, 54%.
Now before you say something about dunks, he doesn't dunk on people and has had just a few contested dunks since he got drafted.
For a 6'9 forward who can't shoot, his finishing needs to be way better and he needs to finish layups others cant if he's to be useful on offense.


The issue is that he never plays his natural position

Agreed, he got completely fucked over by all these experiments and which have obviously set him back.

But then again, him playing his natural position makes things way more difficult for everyone else. How many of those passes to wide open Jeremy on the perimeter that amount to nothing have we seen?
Is it worth making everyone uncomfortable on offense just because he's a positive defender? Especially since Castle also fills that POA defender role unless big wings are the matchup?

If we look around the league and try to find non-shooters on forward positions starting for playoff teams, there are very few of them.
Amen is an S-tier athlete which compensates for his lack of shooting. 17/10/5 on 54% FG since he became a starter.
Gordon might have lost some of his athleticism, but is still one of the best athletes in the league and is shooting 41% from 3pt on 2.7 attempts this season.
Jones Jr is at 36% on 2.8 attempts, also jumps out of the building.
Draymond is at 35% on 3.6 attempts this season.
Mobley is at 39% on 3 attempts.

Amen, Giannis and Adebayo (since he was moved to PF with Ware at C) are the only non-shooting forwards starting on playoff teams in the entire league.
Basically unless you're a physical freak you need to shoot the ball as a modern wing.

I still think a top tier coach could make it work, but we don't have on and as long as Mitch is in charge Jeremy is a detriment to the team on offense.
I'd like to keep him on a team-friendly deal, but taking another gamble on a player who needs to figure out a lot of things would be awful.

[exstatic]

I've defended Sochan more than most here, and I still have high hopes for him. But with the new cap rules, there is an emphasis on not getting yourself into bad long term contracts. I think he can be more in the future, but for now Sochan is a one way specialist who excels at primarily perimeter defense and cutting for easy baskets. That doesn't mean he's useless by any means, and he's still got a long runway. But as of right now it looks like a tricky fit. I've said before the best comp right now for his contract is Okongwu from 2 years ago - top 10 defense-first pick best used as a backup big on their current teams.

Per 100 possessions during their 3rd year:
Sochan: 21.5p/13r/5a/1.6st/1.5bl on 56% eFG
Okongwu: 20.5p/15r/2.1a/1.4st/2.6bl on 64% eFG
Neither has a 3 pointer to speak of

Okongwu slightly older, slightly better DPM compared to Sochan

Okongwu got 4/62 at the time which was a reasonable contract, I don't honestly see an argument for Sochan getting a significantly better contract as of this time - certainly if in the next 4 years he develops a consistent 3 pointer and improves his handles, his age 25 contract will be far more valuable but at this time 16 a year is probably market value honestly.

Okongwu was 4-13 in his first 3 seasons. Jeremy is 4-6 in his last 5 games, and is currently shooting 34%. His 45 degree axial tilt is gone.

[John B]

Better outing from Sochan last night. I hate when he hesitates and pass on open shots. But last night seems he’s trying to get his own. He can really be effective on offensive rebounds and put backs with his quick jumps. But when he doesn’t, I’d rather they put Mamu in who’s never shy to send them

[ambchang]

The boy thinks too much. Just make the game simple and build from there. The uncertainty of the lineup also kills players confidence. Castle and champaigne both were moved to the bench after a series of goodto great games. Sochan played well and then was moved on and off the bench. Vassell was kept on the SL even though he played like crap for a few games. Now he has a few good games I won’t be surprised he’d be moved to the bench for whatever reason.


The players have no idea what to do and what is expected of them and these youngins are confused.

[Jordan Jackson]

Spurs are going to pay him. They seem committed to dying on that hill. Go look at Twitter - there are fans claiming he’s a starter. Heck - literally saying the Spurs won the game because of him.

We all know how this ends once the Spurs overpay him like Collins.

[cutewizard]

In fairness he is improving

[exstatic]

The boy thinks too much. Just make the game simple and build from there. The uncertainty of the lineup also kills players confidence. Castle and champaigne both were moved to the bench after a series of goodto great games. Sochan played well and then was moved on and off the bench. Vassell was kept on the SL even though he played like crap for a few games. Now he has a few good games I won’t be surprised he’d be moved to the bench for whatever reason.


The players have no idea what to do and what is expected of them and these youngins are confused.

Lineups are driven by two things so far this year: injuries/return from injuries and floor spacing. Acquiring Fox without sending out a heavy usage player also led to some rotation changes, since more than Tre’s 16 minutes would be absorbed by Fox.

[Dejounte]

If only Sochan could play like he did last night every night. He was downright disruptive and was in every defensive play. I think that’s what the Spurs are banking on and hoping he could tap into consistently. Because quite frankly there’s not many in the league who could do what he did last night.

[Rosewood]

I know half (or more) of this board hate him, but I still think this kid is going to be an elite roleplayer. He was our second best player before he went down early this year, and is starting to show that again lately. He is constantly moved out of position (point guard AND center) and has been a trooper the entire time.

The hatred of him is completely bizarre to me… he is 21 and is showing glimpses of elite level play in every facet of the game besides shooting.

[DPG21920]

He’s playing very good and his 3PT shot looks better than it ever has IMO. Still lots to prove in terms of consistency but he’s playing well

[Mnky]

I know half (or more) of this board hate him, but I still think this kid is going to be an elite roleplayer. He was our second best player before he went down early this year, and is starting to show that again lately. He is constantly moved out of position (point guard AND center) and has been a trooper the entire time.

The hatred of him is completely bizarre to me… he is 21 and is showing glimpses of elite level play in every facet of the game besides shooting.

Yea kid legit does everything asked as well as he can, works hard, is tough and doesn't back down, competes, and doesn't ever feel sorry for himself.

Has improved in every way since coming in with a horrible cast of surrounding players to help him learn the game.

No clue why you'd have a problem with that. 21 with tons of potential still.

[scott]

Okongwu was 4-13 in his first 3 seasons. Jeremy is 4-6 in his last 5 games, and is currently shooting 34%. His 45 degree axial tilt is gone.

I remember last season Jeremy shot 46.7% from 3 in November, and a lot of folks on this site pointed to that as a sign that Jeremy had worked on and fixed his shot, but it turned out it was just a blip. By December, he was back to 32.5%, in Jan he had another good month shooting 37.5%, then February - April he only shot 21.5%.

Point being, maybe Jeremy's shot is turning around, but let's not get too excited about his last 6 3PA.

[scott]

If only Sochan could play like he did last night every night. He was downright disruptive and was in every defensive play. I think that’s what the Spurs are banking on and hoping he could tap into consistently. Because quite frankly there’s not many in the league who could do what he did last night.

Specifically the 2nd half. In the first half he was pretty terrible, and I noted that Mitch went away from him and to Mamu the next rotation. Seemed like Jeremy received the message that Mitch was sending and responded very well. I agree with you - if that is full time Sochan, it would be great.

[scott]

I know half (or more) of this board hate him, but I still think this kid is going to be an elite roleplayer. He was our second best player before he went down early this year, and is starting to show that again lately. He is constantly moved out of position (point guard AND center) and has been a trooper the entire time.

The hatred of him is completely bizarre to me… he is 21 and is showing glimpses of elite level play in every facet of the game besides shooting.

I disagree with the notion that he's shown "elite level play in every facet". That sounds like we've just forgotten what elite level play looks like because we've been bad for so long.

He's shown he can be good at a lot of things. He's shown he can be an elite perimeter defender. That's about as far as I'd go with throwing the "elite" word around.

With that said, he's had to suffer through the coaches making him into things he is not. I think expectations need to be level set on what Jeremy is. He's a role player, not a star. He's always going to be the 5h option on offense. All of those things are actually okay - but as long as we recognize his role on the team I think it's easy to see his potential. Evaluating him as though he is supposed to be something more is always going to lead to disappointment. At the same time, when his contract negotiations come up the Spurs also need to pay him like a role player who's always going to be a 5th option. We're going to do our team a disservice to pay him in the hopes he becomes someone he is not.

[spurraider21]

I remember last season Jeremy shot 46.7% from 3 in November, and a lot of folks on this site pointed to that as a sign that Jeremy had worked on and fixed his shot, but it turned out it was just a blip. By December, he was back to 32.5%, in Jan he had another good month shooting 37.5%, then February - April he only shot 21.5%.

Point being, maybe Jeremy's shot is turning around, but let's not get too excited about his last 6 3PA.
god, i cant remember who it was. i believe it was fuzzy lumpkins... but when his 3pt shooting regressed back to normal, Fuzzy hypothesized that it wasnt because the earlier shooting was a fluke, but instead sochan was thrown off his game because he switched positions and was shooting better as a point guard than as a power forward :lol

[Knoxxx]

People need to set aside their immediate term frustrations, Sochan or otherwise, and look at the big picture. Him getting hurt and losing some confidence has slowed his development. That can get us more lotto balls and a renewal discount on his services. We don’t need him to suddenly become a max level rookie contract extension expense.

And yeah coaching needs to develop him better, put him in better spots to succeed, blah blah….

[Arguendo]

I know half (or more) of this board hate him, but I still think this kid is going to be an elite roleplayer. He was our second best player before he went down early this year, and is starting to show that again lately. He is constantly moved out of position (point guard AND center) and has been a trooper the entire time.

The hatred of him is completely bizarre to me… he is 21 and is showing glimpses of elite level play in every facet of the game besides shooting.

It's irrational, seems many decided exactly what he was as a 20y/o, 2nd yr guy playing playing Point-forward, on a team built to tank, with a bunch of 20-23 y/o guys.

Sochan has EXCEEDED reasonable expectations- he's shooting .544/.340/.722 with a 11.9/7.3/2.6A:1.8TO line.
He's increased his scoring with a significant reduction in FGA, significantly increased rebs in less minutes. He's a good rebounder, an elite O-rebounder (over 10%, ranks Top 20 in the fucking league behind Jarret Allen and KAT), he's way above average at getting to the line and he has happily done whatever the team asked. He's also done this recovering from injury and without anything close to a consistent role.

He is has been as good and arguably better this season at 21 than any season Aaron Gordon had from age 21-24 mostly playing similar minutes (more efficient scorer w/less shots, significantly better rebounder, better steals, similar blocks & A:TOs) but Aaron had a consistent role.

Sochan has gone from 24.6% to 30.8% to 34.0% on 3s. Yeah, the volume is low this yr, but someone on this fucking teams needs to worry about O-rebs and putbacks and Sochan is elite at those.
Not everyone on the team should be hanging around the 3-pt line, O-rebs and FTAs are very valuable too.
The hate is so stupid. If Sochan gets to 36% from 3 next yr, very possible if not downright likely given his progression, he is an elite role player at the age of 22. WTF do you guys want?

[exstatic]

I remember last season Jeremy shot 46.7% from 3 in November, and a lot of folks on this site pointed to that as a sign that Jeremy had worked on and fixed his shot, but it turned out it was just a blip. By December, he was back to 32.5%, in Jan he had another good month shooting 37.5%, then February - April he only shot 21.5%.

Point being, maybe Jeremy's shot is turning around, but let's not get too excited about his last 6 3PA.

He was still shooting that 45 degree axial tilt shot,and that was never going to be good, long term.

[Mugen]

I like Jeremy and actually believe he has a nice role on this team as a 6th man.

But, man, J-Dub was sitting right there waiting to be drafted. What a huge whiff of a draft. :lol

[LeBowen]

It's irrational, seems many decided exactly what he was as a 20y/o, 2nd yr guy playing playing Point-forward, on a team built to tank, with a bunch of 20-23 y/o guys.

Sochan has EXCEEDED reasonable expectations- he's shooting .544/.340/.722 with a 11.9/7.3/2.6A:1.8TO line.
He's increased his scoring with a significant reduction in FGA, significantly increased rebs in less minutes. He's a good rebounder, an elite O-rebounder (over 10%, ranks Top 20 in the fucking league behind Jarret Allen and KAT), he's way above average at getting to the line and he has happily done whatever the team asked. He's also done this recovering from injury and without anything close to a consistent role.

He is has been as good and arguably better this season at 21 than any season Aaron Gordon had from age 21-24 mostly playing similar minutes (more efficient scorer w/less shots, significantly better rebounder, better steals, similar blocks & A:TOs) but Aaron had a consistent role.

Sochan has gone from 24.6% to 30.8% to 34.0% on 3s. Yeah, the volume is low this yr, but someone on this fucking teams needs to worry about O-rebs and putbacks and Sochan is elite at those.
Not everyone on the team should be hanging around the 3-pt line, O-rebs and FTAs are very valuable too.
The hate is so stupid. If Sochan gets to 36% from 3 next yr, very possible if not downright likely given his progression, he is an elite role player at the age of 22. WTF do you guys want?

Only a few members want to straight up get rid of him, most of us are just concerned that he won't be worth the money.
If we get him for under 20 million a year, that would be solid value.

And those 3pt percentages mean absolutely nothing when he's alone in the gym for every single one of those shots and takes 1.5 per game this season, hence the percentage improvement.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shots-dash

He made exactly 0 of them with a defender within 6 feet of him. That's a non-shooter.
How many has he made when he mattered? Or even attempted. We all remember those awful passes to him late in the shot clock that always ended horribly.

As I said last summer, there's a bigger gap between a non-shooter (Jeremy) and a bad shooter (Castle) than between a bad shooter and a good shooter.
And it shows. Bad shooters can improve within months with just minor tweaks to their mechanics, non-shooters struggle to make their jumpshot look functional even after years of NBA coaches trying to help them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not shitting on Jeremy as an overall player, I just think that anyone optimistic about his shooting development is deluded.

He needs to develop an array of hook shots, push shots and short range fadeaways from inside the paint to become a positive player offensively. Not everyone can become a solid 3pt shooter, but he needs to play with purpose inside and he needs to finish more situations because right now he can't create anything for himself unless it's a huge mismatch or a putback.

[Arguendo]

He's shown he can be good at a lot of things. He's shown he can be an elite perimeter defender. That's about as far as I'd go with throwing the "elite" word around.

I largely agree, but there's at least 1 other area he is definitely elite this yr: OReb% of 10.1% puts him at #18 in the league.
His overall Reb% of 14.6% ranks at 31 this season.

I don't know where to look up Distance ranks, but Sochan is at 72.3% within 3 ft. That maybe not be elite, but its damn good.
There's plenty of areas where he hasn't looked elite, but he is elite at grabbing ORebs this season.

[Arguendo]

All true LeBowen. Its definitely a value proposition and I think moving to the bench will deflate his market value, so I'm not mad about it.
Also thanks for the link, appreciate the data.

It's the hate I don't get. That chart shows he doesn't take the 3 when guarded, rarely takes it him he's open, and takes most they give to him wide-open. I'm OK with that because he realizes there are better shooters on the court with him.
He is marginally progressing, he shot <26% on wide open 3s as a rook, <33% last yr, 39.5% this yr. He is mostly a non-shooter, but he's getting better at hitting the wide open looks and is a great garbage man which is usually undervalued.

He's hit 1 of 8 with guys within 4-6' so not 0, 0 of 2 guys 2-4' (doesn't shoot them unless closing seconds), hasn't taken one with 0-2' (passes the ball).
He passes the ball to a better shooter, that's what I want him doing right now, passing when they close out, hitting almost 40% when they dare him to shoot. May be not ideal, better would be better, but not deserving the hate.

[RC_Drunkford]

With Wemby playing more on the perimeter you actually need a PF who’s a good perimeter defender, but plays like a C on offense. That‘s exactly who Sochan is and it’s a pretty rare profile.

[LeBowen]

All true LeBowen. Its definitely a value proposition and I think moving to the bench will deflate his market value, so I'm not mad about it.
Also thanks for the link, appreciate the data.

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shooting

There's also this link, different set of shooting stats.


It's the hate I don't get.

This forum is full of people who aren't exactly mentally stable, don't take it seriously. :lol


That chart shows he doesn't take the 3 when guarded, rarely takes it him he's open, and takes most they give to him wide-open. I'm OK with that because he realizes there are better shooters on the court with him.
He is marginally progressing, he shot <26% on wide open 3s as a rook, <33% last yr, 39.5% this yr. He is mostly a non-shooter, but he's getting better at hitting the wide open looks and is a great garbage man which is usually undervalued.

The issue isn't that he's not taking those shots, it's that it's way easier to scheme against a team that has a non-shooter on the floor.
Every time Jeremy is on the floor with Wemby and isn't directly involved in the action it's a 5v4 for defense with Jeremy sitting in the corner. They're all willing to accept the risk of him crashing the glass and getting an offensive rebound, but it shrinks the floor so much for us.

If we had elite shooters in other positions, it would be fine. But even with shooting improvements Fox and Castle are both average at best at their position.
It's simplistic, but I think adding two 40% 3pt shooters on the wings would make this team near-unstoppable on offense with Fox figuring his teammates out and Wemby/Castle becoming more consistent shooters.

I see Jeremy as a glue guy off the bench who can do whatever is needed, but I can't see him in the starting lineup with this roster construction.
If we got let's say Garland who's a great 3pt shooter instead of Fox, it would've been easier to start Jeremy, but not like this. At least not in my opinion.

[Knoxxx]

Al Horford has an ugly ass 3 PT shot but over the years went from shooting low to mid 30s into the 40s and as high as 45%. He just needs to keep shooting! Being afraid out there is the biggest enemy.

[Knoxxx]

I like Jeremy and actually believe he has a nice role on this team as a 6th man.

But, man, J-Dub was sitting right there waiting to be drafted. What a huge whiff of a draft. :lol

Not sure a 6th man is legit with his level of scoring profile, but I get what you are saying. Maybe more of a co-6th or 7th man. But, if everyone else in the SL is a scorer, he may actually fit OK there. Fox-Castle-Sochan-future PF-Wemby

I’d say the PF needs to be able to shoot but maybe we need to accept that any player ideally must be able
to shoot as a given moving forward. Possible exception a bench big who excels at REBs and blocks.

[Mugen]

Sochan and his team will probably be looking for the same dumbass deal that Patrick Williams got (5y/90mil). That's a definite deal breaker IMO.

I think somewhere in the ballpark that Okungwu got (4yr/63mil) is fair.

I still don't understand picking up the option on Branham and Wesley, will be especially dumb if they don't get moved in a trade as salary filler this offseason tbh.

[Spurs Homer]

Its not rocket science...

Fox
Castle
Sochan
Barnes
Wemby

start them, start winning, get a decent bench group run by cp3 -

done.

[Dejounte]

Sochan and his team will probably be looking for the same dumbass deal that Patrick Williams got (5y/90mil). That's a definite deal breaker IMO.

I think somewhere in the ballpark that Okungwu got (4yr/63mil) is fair.

I still don't understand picking up the option on Branham and Wesley, will be especially dumb if they don't get moved in a trade as salary filler this offseason tbh.

If Collins can get us Fox, Branham and Wesley will net us Jokic tbh

[exstatic]

Sochan and his team will probably be looking for the same dumbass deal that Patrick Williams got (5y/90mil). That's a definite deal breaker IMO.

I think somewhere in the ballpark that Okungwu got (4yr/63mil) is fair.

I still don't understand picking up the option on Branham and Wesley, will be especially dumb if they don't get moved in a trade as salary filler this offseason tbh.
:rollin. How can you NOT get it. It’s two guys literally making the NBA equivalent of pocket change at $4.9M and $4.7M who have familiarity with our system and can step in, short term, to sub for injured players. You won’t find that on the waiver wire at that cost. They can also be easily flipped as ending contracts. There’s literally no downside, outside of getting some forum members panties in a bunch.

[spurraider21]

:rollin. How can you NOT get it. It’s two guys literally making the NBA equivalent of pocket change at $4.9M and $4.7M who have familiarity with our system and can step in, short term, to sub for injured players. You won’t find that on the waiver wire at that cost. They can also be easily flipped as ending contracts. There’s literally no downside, outside of getting some forum members panties in a bunch.
if those guys were free agents this offseason as opposed to getting their options picked up, do you really think they earn contracts more than 5 mil per year?

this is basically the same question as the devonte graham bet :lol

whats the value in "branham being able to step in?".... the guy fucking sucks. i think picking up wesley was understandable as we can at least see a trajectory to his development. well, i did, until he just stopped playing altogether. also made sense to pick up up before we had Fox, and with Paul/Tre on expiring deals.

but malaki? jfc

[scott]

if those guys were free agents this offseason as opposed to getting their options picked up, do you really think they earn contracts more than 5 mil per year?

this is basically the same question as the devonte graham bet :lol

whats the value in "branham being able to step in?".... the guy fucking sucks. i think picking up wesley was understandable as we can at least see a trajectory to his development. well, i did, until he just stopped playing altogether. also made sense to pick up up before we had Fox, and with Paul/Tre on expiring deals.

but malaki? jfc

If you don't have Malaki, you might be forced into a position where you have to play some vet minimum guy and he might be terrible. Possibly as bad as Malaki. Better to just pay double and lock in a Malaki-level performance while you can.

[Strategic]

If Jeremy was 6’10” I would be optimistic with him. Dennis Rodman grew 8 inches when he was 19 so there’s always hope. If his inner clock ran a bit faster. I’d go 4x64 and that sounds a little rich.

[spurraider21]

If you don't have Malaki, you might be forced into a position where you have to play some vet minimum guy and he might be terrible. Possibly as bad as Malaki. Better to just pay double and lock in a Malaki-level performance while you can.
its the mystery box meme, but instead of a boat, its a piece of shit :lol

[exstatic]

If you don't have Malaki, you might be forced into a position where you have to play some vet minimum guy and he might be terrible. Possibly as bad as Malaki. Better to just pay double and lock in a Malaki-level performance while you can.

Do you think those two contracts are in any way onerous or inhibiting us from doing anything, or likely to do so in the next 16 months?

[Mugen]

:rollin. How can you NOT get it. It’s two guys literally making the NBA equivalent of pocket change at $4.9M and $4.7M who have familiarity with our system and can step in, short term, to sub for injured players. You won’t find that on the waiver wire at that cost. They can also be easily flipped as ending contracts. There’s literally no downside, outside of getting some forum members panties in a bunch.

Except they literally can't as evidenced when we had injured players this season and they were either terrible during limited minutes or remained glued to the bench...

I'd rather spend that "pocket change" on NBA level players tbh :lol

[scott]

Do you think those two contracts are in any way onerous or inhibiting us from doing anything, or likely to do so in the next 16 months?

Look at teams like MEM and OKC. Their rosters are filled with guys who step in and deliver when the teams face injuries. OKC just made room to sign Ajay Mitchell, an actual useful player, to a full deal. We could have drafted Ajay Mitchell, but instead we sold Johnny Furphy for a few bucks and drafted Juan Nunez just so we wouldn't have to deal with him on the roster. Is having Malaki Branham on the team better or worse than having Ajay Mitchell or Jaylen Wells (another guy we could have drafted) on the team?

It's not that Bran or Blake are stopping us from doing anything in a practical sense, it's that the team is simply resigned to these two guys being the last roster spots and seemingly have zero desire to look at potential options to upgrade them. "Why would we draft Ajay Mitchell or Jaylen Wells? We already have Malaki!"

MEM and OKC are able to find guys with SRPs to who can actually contribute because they don't hold sacred roster spots for the Malaki Branhams of the league. Jaylen Wells, Scottie Pippen Jr, GG Jackson II, Jay Huff, Vince Williams... all guys who started as SRPs or Two-Way guys who have been contributors for MEM just in the last two seasons because they don't tie up the end of their roster with charity cases.

[scott]

I mean, we literally waived Brandon Boston Jr. so that we could keep Malaki Branham. Boston is by no means a world beater, but I'd imagine if you polled 29 other teams who they'd rather have, the answer would be pretty unanimous. Even if Malaki is just here to be trade filler if needed... Boston would be more valuable trade filler.

[rankingtear]

He has better 3pt shooting projection than Ausar and Amen who are older by a few months. Aaron Gordon at 21 is shooting 28% from three. The ability to play as a roll man and play PG in transition mitigates some concern about being a non shooting wing. Cause he does not function as a wing the whole time on the court. That secondary ballhandling against pressure defense and big wing POA are more valuable in playoff series. A decent corner 3pt shot would make him a starter for a playoff team and that is easier to develop than lateral speed or ball handling for forwards. Teams always ovverate their development staff so it is not too farfetched for other GM to look at Sochan as a decent C&S 3 away from the being most desirable playoff role player and would offer a contract accordingly.Multiple teams with interest could push it past 20 mil per year.

[quentin_compson]

:rollin. How can you NOT get it. It’s two guys literally making the NBA equivalent of pocket change at $4.9M and $4.7M who have familiarity with our system and can step in, short term, to sub for injured players. You won’t find that on the waiver wire at that cost. They can also be easily flipped as ending contracts. There’s literally no downside, outside of getting some forum members panties in a bunch.

Man, you just never learn, do you?

[Knoxxx]

Man, you just never learn, do you?

if a player can’t learn our system we don’t want them. And that is a reach given consensus is the coaching/system need to be upgraded to begin with.

That said, I admire the loyalty I just want to move forward with more upside prospects.

[SpursBills]

It's funny that you bring up Okongwu as a comp. His contract started at 10% of the cap, which is exactly where a 100/5 or 77/4 contract for Sochan would start.

Okongwu's contract is a bit smaller overall because his annual raises are only 7.1% instead of the maximum 8.5%.

So this is a very good point and I wanted to take a look at this more closely, looking at comparable players and contracts. I picked 4 other players in the league known to be strong defense-first players and wanted to see what kind of contracts that they got after their first rookie contract.

Per 100 possessions:
Jeremy Sochan: 21.5p/13r/5a/1.6st/1.5bl on 56% eFG
Jaden McDaniels: 18.7/6/2.9/1.5/1.5 on 58%
OG Anunoby 16.9/8/2.5/2.2/1 on 58.4%
Jonathan Isaac 20/11.5/2.4/2.6/3.9 on 51.8%
Herb Jones: 17/8.4/2.5/2.2/1 with 58.4%

https://postimg.cc/XZVy6shc



Name
Contract
Average Cap hit
3P/100


Jeremy Sochan


0.9


Jonathan Isaac
4 years, 69 million
14.10%
1.6


Herb Jones
4 years, 54 million
8.96%
2.4


Jaden McDaniels
5 years, 131 million
15.63%
2.1


OG Anunoby
4 years, 72 million
?
2



https://i.postimg.cc/sfmYp55V/Perimeter-defender-salaries.png


So these numbers tell us a few things:
1. Sochan's still really really young. 21 is just a baby and he's got a long runway ahead of him. Right now his impact at the same age compares favorably to OG Anunoby and Jaden McDaniels at the same age. Herb Jones was drafted when he was much older while Jonathan Isaac has always been more impactful although his career has been marred by injury.
2. I use 3p made/100 possessions as my own personal catch-all metric of a shooter's gravity. https://postimg.cc/bdvFLNGmIt works reasonably well I think, as it takes into account both shooting percentage and volume of 3 pointers and normalizes them by rate. Generally I've found that anything above 4 is a very good to excellent shooter (Dame, Luka, Kennard, Isaiah Joe), 3-4 is good (Wemby, Vassell), 2-3 is average (Kuzma, Franz, SGA, Jaylen Brown, Caruso), and below 2 is poor to non-shooter (Butler, Smart, Thompson twins). What's enlightening is that most of the guys he comps too weren't exactly deadeye shooters but at least "average". On the other hand, Sochan is really not too far away from his comps when it comes to shooting gravity - it really comes down to about 1 extra 3 pointer made per 100 possessions.
3. These numbers suggest that Sochan would be well within reason to ask for 20 million a year based on the rising cap. Isaac, McDaniels, and OG were all above 10% of the cap per year as was Okongwu, as you mentioned. His per 100 stats are better than similar players at the same age while his impact metrics are similar.
4. That being said, it is important to note that the prior contracts were all handed out prior to second apron rules - it will be interesting to see how much of a penalty these rules and his shooting deficiencies play on his next contract.

[Knoxxx]

So this is a very good point and I wanted to take a look at this more closely, looking at comparable players and contracts. I picked 4 other players in the league known to be strong defense-first players and wanted to see what kind of contracts that they got after their first rookie contract.

Per 100 possessions:
Jeremy Sochan: 21.5p/13r/5a/1.6st/1.5bl on 56% eFG
Jaden McDaniels: 18.7/6/2.9/1.5/1.5 on 58%
OG Anunoby 16.9/8/2.5/2.2/1 on 58.4%
Jonathan Isaac 20/11.5/2.4/2.6/3.9 on 51.8%
Herb Jones: 17/8.4/2.5/2.2/1 with 58.4%

https://postimg.cc/XZVy6shc



Name
Contract
Average Cap hit
3P/100


Jeremy Sochan


0.9


Jonathan Isaac
4 years, 69 million
14.10%
1.6


Herb Jones
4 years, 54 million
8.96%
2.4


Jaden McDaniels
5 years, 131 million
15.63%
2.1


OG Anunoby
4 years, 72 million
?
2



https://i.postimg.cc/sfmYp55V/Perimeter-defender-salaries.png


So these numbers tell us a few things:
1. Sochan's still really really young. 21 is just a baby and he's got a long runway ahead of him. Right now his impact at the same age compares favorably to OG Anunoby and Jaden McDaniels at the same age. Herb Jones was drafted when he was much older while Jonathan Isaac has always been more impactful although his career has been marred by injury.
2. I use 3p made/100 possessions as my own personal catch-all metric of a shooter's gravity. https://postimg.cc/bdvFLNGmIt works reasonably well I think, as it takes into account both shooting percentage and volume of 3 pointers and normalizes them by rate. Generally I've found that anything above 4 is a very good to excellent shooter (Dame, Luka, Kennard, Isaiah Joe), 3-4 is good (Wemby, Vassell), 2-3 is average (Kuzma, Franz, SGA, Jaylen Brown, Caruso), and below 2 is poor to non-shooter (Butler, Smart, Thompson twins). What's enlightening is that most of the guys he comps too weren't exactly deadeye shooters but at least "average". On the other hand, Sochan is really not too far away from his comps when it comes to shooting gravity - it really comes down to about 1 extra 3 pointer made per 100 possessions.
3. These numbers suggest that Sochan would be well within reason to ask for 20 million a year based on the rising cap. Isaac, McDaniels, and OG were all above 10% of the cap per year as was Okongwu, as you mentioned. His per 100 stats are better than similar players at the same age while his impact metrics are similar.
4. That being said, it is important to note that the prior contracts were all handed out prior to second apron rules - it will be interesting to see how much of a penalty these rules and his shooting deficiencies play on his next contract.

OK you talked us up to $15 million a year for Sochan but no more! We are already meeting you halfway from $10 mills

[SpursBills]

OK you talked us up to $15 million a year for Sochan but no more! We are already meeting you halfway from $10 mills

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, just trying to add new information to a discussion

[Knoxxx]

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything, just trying to add new information to a discussion

Sure you weren’t

[exstatic]

Look at teams like MEM and OKC. Their rosters are filled with guys who step in and deliver when the teams face injuries. OKC just made room to sign Ajay Mitchell, an actual useful player, to a full deal. We could have drafted Ajay Mitchell, but instead we sold Johnny Furphy for a few bucks and drafted Juan Nunez just so we wouldn't have to deal with him on the roster. Is having Malaki Branham on the team better or worse than having Ajay Mitchell or Jaylen Wells (another guy we could have drafted) on the team?

It's not that Bran or Blake are stopping us from doing anything in a practical sense, it's that the team is simply resigned to these two guys being the last roster spots and seemingly have zero desire to look at potential options to upgrade them. "Why would we draft Ajay Mitchell or Jaylen Wells? We already have Malaki!"

MEM and OKC are able to find guys with SRPs to who can actually contribute because they don't hold sacred roster spots for the Malaki Branhams of the league. Jaylen Wells, Scottie Pippen Jr, GG Jackson II, Jay Huff, Vince Williams... all guys who started as SRPs or Two-Way guys who have been contributors for MEM just in the last two seasons because they don't tie up the end of their roster with charity cases.

The end of our roster is now an empty spot, and a guy on a ten day. Do you think those two contracts will stop us from doing something with those spots, or is it probably not worth pissing one’s pants over two deals that total less than $10M next year?

[Pauleta14]

So if I read you correctly, the Sochan defenders are going to use the "he has to play backup center" (occasionally) as an excuse the same way they used his exp (barely a month) playing PG to excuse his previous season?? :lol


This is beyond the definition of insanity, it's pure mental illness at this point

[Pauleta14]

If Collins can get us Fox, Branham and Wesley will net us Jokic tbh

It's not Collins that gave us Fox, it's LaVine and the pressure Fox put on his FO, we luck out

Whatever contract you give to any player, you should be able to trade him the day of the signature.

I doubt it'd be the case for Sochan with a near 5y/$100M

[Pauleta14]

If Jeremy was 6’10” I would be optimistic with him. Dennis Rodman grew 8 inches when he was 19 so there’s always hope. If his inner clock ran a bit faster. I’d go 4x64 and that sounds a little rich.

If he wasn't a Spur, would you want to trade for Sochan, even at 4y/64M?

I wouldn't

[scott]

The end of our roster is now an empty spot, and a guy on a ten day. Do you think those two contracts will stop us from doing something with those spots, or is it probably not worth pissing one’s pants over two deals that total less than $10M next year?

We didn't have those roster spots open until recently. We certainly didn't have them open when we released other players and passed on Jaylen Wells and Ajay Mitchell because we only wanted an SRP who would accept a 2-way with us.

The money is irrelevant. The team's complete disregard for properly utilizing the end of the roster is not.

I realize being a pedantic dickwad is kind of your shtick, but this one is even a new low for you... which is saying something considering the bangers you've put out together (Vassell has turned a corner based on a 4-game sample. Sochan's shot appears fixed based on a *6 shot sample*). Classic.

[exstatic]

We didn't have those roster spots open until recently. We certainly didn't have them open when we released other players and passed on Jaylen Wells and Ajay Mitchell because we only wanted an SRP who would accept a 2-way with us.

The money is irrelevant. The team's complete disregard for properly utilizing the end of the roster is not.

I realize being a pedantic dickwad is kind of your shtick, but this one is even a new low for you... which is saying something considering the bangers you've put out together (Vassell has turned a corner based on a 4-game sample. Sochan's shot appears fixed based on a *6 shot sample*). Classic.

That’s all I needed to see. The money is irrelevant. The two basically empty roster spots are irrelevant. Good job blending in with the mindless rabble here, Scott.

[SpursBills]

If he wasn't a Spur, would you want to trade for Sochan, even at 4y/64M?

I wouldn't

Yes. Aaron Gordon as a 3rd year player put up similar numbers, and his extension at that time scaled to the current cap would be about 4/110. OG Anunoby had a prior ACL tear and his rookie extension scales to about 4/92. 4/64 would be a bargain for 21 year old Sochan and I think you would find that most front offices would jump on that deal. 21 year old Gordon was a better player than 21 year old Sochan, but not almost double the player.

[KobesAchilles]

Yes. Aaron Gordon as a 3rd year player put up similar numbers, and his extension at that time scaled to the current cap would be about 4/110. OG Anunoby had a prior ACL tear and his rookie extension scales to about 4/92. 4/64 would be a bargain for 21 year old Sochan and I think you would find that most front offices would jump on that deal. 21 year old Gordon was a better player than 21 year old Sochan, but not almost double the player.
This is beyond my comprehension. Basically you are saying since a horribly run franchise (which at the time the magic was the absolute worst franchise in the league) made a bad mistake and offered Gordon that contract we should also make a bad mistake on Sochans contract.

I keep hearing how “other teams” or “most FOs” would sign Sochan to large contract. Here’s the thing, they won’t. What are these mythical “other teams” and do yall even know the fit and cap scenario of these teams? Seriously name me a team that would do so. I’d love to know which team is going to offer Sochan $20 million a year to be a back up big for them.

If I were the Spurs I would let Sochan test the market. See what actual offers he would get from actual real life teams instead of these mythical teams Sochan supporters keep telling me about and then go from there.

[Seventyniner]

Yes. Aaron Gordon as a 3rd year player put up similar numbers, and his extension at that time scaled to the current cap would be about 4/110. OG Anunoby had a prior ACL tear and his rookie extension scales to about 4/92. 4/64 would be a bargain for 21 year old Sochan and I think you would find that most front offices would jump on that deal. 21 year old Gordon was a better player than 21 year old Sochan, but not almost double the player.

Fantastic work on that comparison. :bobo

I especially like your method of estimating gravity as a shooter. It shows that Sochan has essentially none, which agrees with the eye test.

I think the backlash against 100/5 is the extra digit in the number, or at least the sense that $100M is "too much" for someone like Sochan. That's why it's best to look at contracts in terms of % of the cap rather than absolute dollar amounts, especially with the cap growing so quickly. The MLE starts at 9% of the cap; 10% is hardly onerous for a young key role-player.

imo 100/5 is fair value, 90/5 would be team-friendly, and 80/5 would be a steal.

[RC_Drunkford]

most teams can't offer more than the MLE. And the Spurs shouldn't offer more than that either.

[rankingtear]

most teams can't offer more than the MLE. And the Spurs shouldn't offer more than that either.

What!? It is projected to have the most capspace since 2016. A lot of contracts are lined up to get the new CBA money.

[ambchang]

Look at teams like MEM and OKC. Their rosters are filled with guys who step in and deliver when the teams face injuries. OKC just made room to sign Ajay Mitchell, an actual useful player, to a full deal. We could have drafted Ajay Mitchell, but instead we sold Johnny Furphy for a few bucks and drafted Juan Nunez just so we wouldn't have to deal with him on the roster. Is having Malaki Branham on the team better or worse than having Ajay Mitchell or Jaylen Wells (another guy we could have drafted) on the team?

It's not that Bran or Blake are stopping us from doing anything in a practical sense, it's that the team is simply resigned to these two guys being the last roster spots and seemingly have zero desire to look at potential options to upgrade them. "Why would we draft Ajay Mitchell or Jaylen Wells? We already have Malaki!"

MEM and OKC are able to find guys with SRPs to who can actually contribute because they don't hold sacred roster spots for the Malaki Branhams of the league. Jaylen Wells, Scottie Pippen Jr, GG Jackson II, Jay Huff, Vince Williams... all guys who started as SRPs or Two-Way guys who have been contributors for MEM just in the last two seasons because they don't tie up the end of their roster with charity cases.

I’ve stated this multiple times and am repeating myself so forgive me on this, but my stance is that teams like OKC and Memphis actually have a set, reasonable system in place, and the profile of players who fit into that model is clear.

Spurs on the other hand, doesn’t. The system is confusing and difficult to understand, even for life long basketball players. Nobody can grasp the system because there is none, and as such there aren’t players who can just fit in and contribute.

Whatever the spurs are running isn’t working, players have been here for years and no one seems to get it. People say the players are dumb but vets like Paul and Barnes sometimes struggle in it as well. Castle is just playing his game now and players are unsure what to do and where to go. By the time the player finally realizes what’s going on the play is already over.

Simplify the system. Strip down the playbook, simple defensive concepts. It’s not brain surgery, it’s freaking basketball, repeat the same plays over and over again until they are down pat. MAGA and pedo ran the same bloody pick and roll for 20 years, you run a play well enough and it will work. We have wemby, we can run some unstoppable plays with him like nuggets with jokic.

[ambchang]

At this point having sochan, who by most reasonable evaluation is a solid glue guy who could be a 6th man or even a starter based on lineups/matchups, at $16-$18m a year for 4 to 5 years isn’t unreasonable.

As much as people like to crap on his lack of development, he has a significant jump in efficiency (due to a drastic reduction in 3pa/100 ), rebounding, and a number of advanced metrics (ortg, drtg, ws/48, VORP, BPM, orb%, per, ts%, ft rate) all with about the same usage rate. Hope this improvement will continue and at the $16-$18m area, you are talking about similar sixth to eighth man types, or one sided offensive chuckers types.

It goes back to how much a team values defense vs offence. Sochan is the opposite of a on offensive chucker, he does defense and very minimal on defense.

[RC_Drunkford]

What!? It is projected to have the most capspace since 2016. A lot of contracts are lined up to get the new CBA money.

2016 is long gone. You probably mean 2026. There are currently only 12 teams under the cap for that season and 9 of them could offer slightly more money than the current MLE. Most teams do not have a lot of cap room and extensions will make that group a lot smaller once the offseason comes around.

Frontloading Sochan's contract would also make sense.

[KobesAchilles]

2016 is long gone. You probably mean 2026. There are currently only 12 teams under the cap for that season and 9 of them could offer slightly more money than the current MLE. Most teams do not have a lot of cap room and extensions will make that group a lot smaller once the offseason comes around.

Frontloading Sochan's contract would also make sense.
Finally someone speaking sense. thank you

People here just think all 30 teams have a shitload of cap space and all of them are just dying to offer Sochan a huge deal. Few teams have the cap space and even fewer actually would want Sochan and none and I mean none are going to offer him $20 million a year so why even bring up that number?

Even if you talk about it in percentages, no other team is going to give Sochan 11% of their cap so why would the Spurs?

[rankingtear]

2016 is long gone. You probably mean 2026. There are currently only 12 teams under the cap for that season and 9 of them could offer slightly more money than the current MLE. Most teams do not have a lot of cap room and extensions will make that group a lot smaller once the offseason comes around.

Frontloading Sochan's contract would also make sense.

That does not add up. 2026 offseason when Sochan deal is expiring there are shit ton of capspace. CHI BKN POR UTA LAC WAS NOP is from 80-100 with no big money guy they would sign between this offseason and 2026. Add DET to that. HOU ATL and DAL could move on with their lead guards and have 40-60 to work with. LAL could have as much as 80 as well. Look at the free agents for 2026 you see a lot of big money old guys as UFA and a shit ton of 18-20 million players coming off the books.

2016 is when the cap spiked and between that and 2017 teams are suddenly have shit ton of capspace. 2026 offseason is comparable to that.

Who is getting a big extension in CHI BKN POR UTA LAC NOP DET? CHI has no one, UTA only has Kessler who they got on the block for years, NOP Trey already got his, DET,POR with negative impact players in Sharpe and Ivery Duren?

You also have a barren 2025 free agency class and a down 2022 draft class with probably 3 max guys not included on those teams I listed 2 from OKC and 1 from ORL. Then no one would even close to sniffing the max. Maybe 1 sorta big extension guy in 2021 in Cuminga but GSW is not really among those teams projected above.

Even with the 2025 free agency class there is no one projected to get a bump, Naz Reid maybe but MIN is not really among the projected cap space team, Turner if he resigns IND is also not amoing projected cap space team.

There is also Sean Marks who is known for poison pilling restricted free agents armed with the most projected capspace in the next 2 years.

[Seventyniner]

Finally someone speaking sense. thank you

People here just think all 30 teams have a shitload of cap space and all of them are just dying to offer Sochan a huge deal. Few teams have the cap space and even fewer actually would want Sochan and none and I mean none are going to offer him $20 million a year so why even bring up that number?

Even if you talk about it in percentages, no other team is going to give Sochan 11% of their cap so why would the Spurs?

1) Who is this mythical person who said "all 30 teams have a shitload of cap space and all of them are just dying to offer Sochan a huge deal"? Motte and bailey.
2) An MLE contract is around $18M per season and doesn't require cap space, though it does require being under the tax line. Roughly 20 teams have access to the full MLE each season.
3) Your assumption that no other team would want Sochan at $20M per (or 11% of the cap) is just that, an assumption. An opinion, not a fact. The reason to bring that specific number up is that it is comparable, even favorably comparable, to players like Okongwu, McDaniels, and Anunoby.

[scott]

That’s all I needed to see. The money is irrelevant. The two basically empty roster spots are irrelevant. Good job blending in with the mindless rabble here, Scott.

Good job of continuing to be a mindless idiot, incapable of a 3rd grade level of reasoning.

[scott]

I’ve stated this multiple times and am repeating myself so forgive me on this, but my stance is that teams like OKC and Memphis actually have a set, reasonable system in place, and the profile of players who fit into that model is clear.

Spurs on the other hand, doesn’t. The system is confusing and difficult to understand, even for life long basketball players. Nobody can grasp the system because there is none, and as such there aren’t players who can just fit in and contribute.

Whatever the spurs are running isn’t working, players have been here for years and no one seems to get it. People say the players are dumb but vets like Paul and Barnes sometimes struggle in it as well. Castle is just playing his game now and players are unsure what to do and where to go. By the time the player finally realizes what’s going on the play is already over.

Simplify the system. Strip down the playbook, simple defensive concepts. It’s not brain surgery, it’s freaking basketball, repeat the same plays over and over again until they are down pat. MAGA and pedo ran the same bloody pick and roll for 20 years, you run a play well enough and it will work. We have wemby, we can run some unstoppable plays with him like nuggets with jokic.

Absolutely, and that lack of a system I think is what leads us to this place where we have a roster full of guys who don't really fit. With that said, I think some leeway can be granted because the main core is just evolving. Coming into the season it was essentially just Wemby, and now a few months later it is very clear that it is Wemby-Fox-Castle. I'd hope that all of our roster moves from here forward are made based on what fits those 3.

What I don't want to see, is passing up opportunities to add a prospect that fits to the end of the roster because we've already got Malaki Branham in that seat. It's just poor resource management. The team could make better use of the end of the bench and it's two ways, like OKC and MEM do. This is how these teams are going to manage their cap in the long term, but finding and developing these guys who form the next wave of cheap role players for them. MEM has Vince Williams, Jay Huff, Scotty Pippen Jr, GG Jackson, and Jaylen wells all locked up for half the price of Malaki Branham next year. Likewise OKC with Ajay Mitchell, Dillon Jones and Jaylin Williams. That's just S-Tier roster management. As soon as JJJ makes All-NBA this year and extends, MEM is going to have 3 guys on 25%+ Max Level deals and still going to be able to fairly easily manage their cap. I think I've read they took a bunch of our FO guys... wonder if we can somehow get them back.

[scott]

Finally someone speaking sense. thank you

People here just think all 30 teams have a shitload of cap space and all of them are just dying to offer Sochan a huge deal. Few teams have the cap space and even fewer actually would want Sochan and none and I mean none are going to offer him $20 million a year so why even bring up that number?

Even if you talk about it in percentages, no other team is going to give Sochan 11% of their cap so why would the Spurs?

:pop:

[baseline bum]

2016 is when the cap spiked and between that and 2017 teams are suddenly have shit ton of capspace. 2026 offseason is comparable to that.


No it isn't, 2016-17 had a 32% spike to the cap. The new CBA smoothed cap rises which is why it's 10% every year off the new TV deal specifically to prevent situations like GSW having a bunch of stars under contract and still being able to sign Durant too only because of a cap spike.

[KobesAchilles]

1) Who is this mythical person who said "all 30 teams have a shitload of cap space and all of them are just dying to offer Sochan a huge deal"? Motte and bailey.
2) An MLE contract is around $18M per season and doesn't require cap space, though it does require being under the tax line. Roughly 20 teams have access to the full MLE each season.
3) Your assumption that no other team would want Sochan at $20M per (or 11% of the cap) is just that, an assumption. An opinion, not a fact. The reason to bring that specific number up is that it is comparable, even favorably comparable, to players like Okongwu, McDaniels, and Anunoby.
You must be his agent or something. No shit it’s my assumption. The same way it’s your assumption that somebody will give him the full MLE. Again you make no sense and are bidding against yourself. Do you know the most amount of years a team can sign Sochan is 4 years? That’s it. So why offer him a 5th year? It makes no sense.

And you yourself have already pigeonholed Sochan as being worth 11% of their cap. So why then give him a 5th year? Just give him 4 like anybody else. If he’s good enough for a 5th year then sign him again for the same percentage. He isn’t going to improve that much anyways. This is what he is as a player.

Also I could definitely be wrong but from what I google the full MLE next year is 14 million dollars. So again why offer 20 million?

Even if it was 4 years 72 million as full MLE (but I think it’s far less) then give him 4 years 75 million and call it a day. We are going to pay Wemby 65 million a year (something you forget) so these extra few millions of savings do come in play.

[ambchang]

Absolutely, and that lack of a system I think is what leads us to this place where we have a roster full of guys who don't really fit. With that said, I think some leeway can be granted because the main core is just evolving. Coming into the season it was essentially just Wemby, and now a few months later it is very clear that it is Wemby-Fox-Castle. I'd hope that all of our roster moves from here forward are made based on what fits those 3.

What I don't want to see, is passing up opportunities to add a prospect that fits to the end of the roster because we've already got Malaki Branham in that seat. It's just poor resource management. The team could make better use of the end of the bench and it's two ways, like OKC and MEM do. This is how these teams are going to manage their cap in the long term, but finding and developing these guys who form the next wave of cheap role players for them. MEM has Vince Williams, Jay Huff, Scotty Pippen Jr, GG Jackson, and Jaylen wells all locked up for half the price of Malaki Branham next year. Likewise OKC with Ajay Mitchell, Dillon Jones and Jaylin Williams. That's just S-Tier roster management. As soon as JJJ makes All-NBA this year and extends, MEM is going to have 3 guys on 25%+ Max Level deals and still going to be able to fairly easily manage their cap. I think I've read they took a bunch of our FO guys... wonder if we can somehow get them back.

No question and totally agree with this. Many fans think that end of bench and gleague guys are after thought and I disagree with this, especially in the second apron days. End of bench guys are there to replace the non core valuable role players once they become expensive, basically the pipeline. Spurs are looking at this pipeline replacement using high picks, it seems. But that isn’t a sustainable model if that is the sole source because:
A) there are really only 2 of 3 core level players in any given draft, everyone else are either role players or swings. The spurs are hoping for role players who obviously require a suitable system and strong development. The spurs have neither.
B) rookies are by definition young undeveloped players who are general unknowns in the pro game. The spurs have to hit these singles and doubles at a pretty high rate to allow for this churn of role players. I think the spurs are still league average or above in drafting but nobody bats 100%
C) there is a way bigger young vet pool with much less unknown in their pro games than players available in the draft. By ignoring this pool the spurs are unwisely removing a huge pool of renewable resource

Using an 8-man rotation, with another 2 playing spot minutes, any team has a roster sport for 5 to 7 players to audition for these roles for cheap and actually have a probation period for them. To your point, using this on branham, who didn’t show much improvement in three years and even if he did doesn’t seem to fit in the team is a waste of a valuable spot. I still have some faith in Wesley but without a solid development plan and a clear coaching strategy, the spurs will go no where.

[Seventyniner]

You must be his agent or something. No shit it’s my assumption. The same way it’s your assumption that somebody will give him the full MLE. Again you make no sense and are bidding against yourself. Do you know the most amount of years a team can sign Sochan is 4 years? That’s it. So why offer him a 5th year? It makes no sense.

And you yourself have already pigeonholed Sochan as being worth 11% of their cap. So why then give him a 5th year? Just give him 4 like anybody else. If he’s good enough for a 5th year then sign him again for the same percentage. He isn’t going to improve that much anyways. This is what he is as a player.

Also I could definitely be wrong but from what I google the full MLE next year is 14 million dollars. So again why offer 20 million?

Even if it was 4 years 72 million as full MLE (but I think it’s far less) then give him 4 years 75 million and call it a day. We are going to pay Wemby 65 million a year (something you forget) so these extra few millions of savings do come in play.

I'm not his agent, I'm defending my position that 100/5 (i.e. 11% higher than the MLE) would be a fair contract for Sochan. Going much past that would be an overpay, which is something his agent wouldn't say.

I already addressed the "bidding against yourself" argument. Giving Sochan a modest amount above the MLE hedges the risk that he makes a huge leap next season that causes another team to be willing to offer significantly above the MLE. That team doesn't necessarily have to have cap space: if they offer Sochan enough and the Spurs won't match, he will ask for a sign-and-trade. At that point he would have one foot out the door and the Spurs might as well sign-and-trade him to try and get something back. The downside is paying him a few extra million per season.

If you're willing to give him 4 years you should be willing to give him 5. The max raise size of 8.5% is less than the cap rise of 10%, meaning that in cap % terms even a contract with max raise sizes is declining over time. Also he will be 27 in that 5th year, right in the prime of his career. He could command a contract much bigger than that 5th year salary at that point.

The bolded part is another opinion, one I disagree with. I expect him to improve because he is still quite young. If Sochan truly is never going to get any better than he is now 100/5 would be an overpay. In other words, I would agree with your conclusion if I agreed with your premise. The premises are where we have a difference of opinion.

The MLE is a bit over 9% of the cap. In 2026-2027, when Sochan's extension would kick in, the cap will be $170M. That makes a max length MLE contract 69/4 starting at $15.3M, or 89/5 if the Spurs offer a fifth year.

A 30% extension for Wemby will start at $56M in 2027-2028 (the second year of Sochan's extension), when the cap will be $187M.

[TheBallsbreakers]

I’ve stated this multiple times and am repeating myself so forgive me on this, but my stance is that teams like OKC and Memphis actually have a set, reasonable system in place, and the profile of players who fit into that model is clear.

Spurs on the other hand, doesn’t. The system is confusing and difficult to understand, even for life long basketball players. Nobody can grasp the system because there is none, and as such there aren’t players who can just fit in and contribute.

Whatever the spurs are running isn’t working, players have been here for years and no one seems to get it. People say the players are dumb but vets like Paul and Barnes sometimes struggle in it as well. Castle is just playing his game now and players are unsure what to do and where to go. By the time the player finally realizes what’s going on the play is already over.

Simplify the system. Strip down the playbook, simple defensive concepts. It’s not brain surgery, it’s freaking basketball, repeat the same plays over and over again until they are down pat. MAGA and pedo ran the same bloody pick and roll for 20 years, you run a play well enough and it will work. We have wemby, we can run some unstoppable plays with him like nuggets with jokic.
Who TF are MAGA and Pedo? :rollin

[scott]

Seventyniner, this is a nitpick, but it's been bugging me since I've seen it several times now... but it's 8% max raises, not 8.5%.

[Seventyniner]

Seventyniner (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17327), this is a nitpick, but it's been bugging me since I've seen it several times now... but it's 8% max raises, not 8.5%.

Dammit, you're right. I'm annoyed that I can't remember where I got 8.5% from. Maybe an old CBA?

That makes a 5th year an even better deal in cap % terms, assuming that the cap goes up the full 10% every year.

[ChumpDumper]

Who TF are MAGA and Pedo? :rollin

I'm assuming Stockton and Malone.

[The Truth #6]

Definitely resign Jeremy. He is part of the defensive culture/type of player the FO seems to want. Just don't overpay him.

Tangent: Devin on the other hand seems like a one-dimensional gunner that isn't needed at that price point. I think he's trying to adapt but will only do so when Castle starts and assumes #3 on the pecking order. Starting CP just gives Devin the hope he can still do his same thing. Just my opinion.

[objective]

Yea kid legit does everything asked as well as he can, works hard, is tough and doesn't back down, competes

Doesn't back down until it's the end of a quarter and he gets the ball WIDE OPEN because he's always WIDE OPEN and then he competes so hard he takes a shot clock violation instead of shooting.

[KobesAchilles]

I'm not his agent, I'm defending my position that 100/5 (i.e. 11% higher than the MLE) would be a fair contract for Sochan. Going much past that would be an overpay, which is something his agent wouldn't say.

I already addressed the "bidding against yourself" argument. Giving Sochan a modest amount above the MLE hedges the risk that he makes a huge leap next season that causes another team to be willing to offer significantly above the MLE. That team doesn't necessarily have to have cap space: if they offer Sochan enough and the Spurs won't match, he will ask for a sign-and-trade. At that point he would have one foot out the door and the Spurs might as well sign-and-trade him to try and get something back. The downside is paying him a few extra million per season.

If you're willing to give him 4 years you should be willing to give him 5. The max raise size of 8.5% is less than the cap rise of 10%, meaning that in cap % terms even a contract with max raise sizes is declining over time. Also he will be 27 in that 5th year, right in the prime of his career. He could command a contract much bigger than that 5th year salary at that point.

The bolded part is another opinion, one I disagree with. I expect him to improve because he is still quite young. If Sochan truly is never going to get any better than he is now 100/5 would be an overpay. In other words, I would agree with your conclusion if I agreed with your premise. The premises are where we have a difference of opinion.

The MLE is a bit over 9% of the cap. In 2026-2027, when Sochan's extension would kick in, the cap will be $170M. That makes a max length MLE contract 69/4 starting at $15.3M, or 89/5 if the Spurs offer a fifth year.

A 30% extension for Wemby will start at $56M in 2027-2028 (the second year of Sochan's extension), when the cap will be $187M.

Yeah I’m not willing to give a bench player more than the MLE. I see Sochan for what I believe he will become. A bench player. His game isn’t good enough to be a starter on a winning team. I will go so far to say that we won’t be a winning team with him as a starter, even with Fox.

He would need to improve massively in order to start for a winning team and he just hasn’t shown the ability to get better at all. 3rd year Sochan is disappointing and so will 4th year and 5th year. He will never be a shooter and we need a shooter to pair with Wemby and Fox. He doesn’t set good picks. He doesn’t finish in traffic particularly well and in fact he doesn’t do anything offensively well. Sochan is a bench player waiting to happen. The faster the FO comes to that realization the better off we will be as a franchise.

[exstatic]

Who TF are MAGA and Pedo? :rollin

Stockton and Malone.

[Knoxxx]

Sochan was our most prepared player to start the season, roaring out of the gates averaging 17 and 9. Then the broken thumb and he never got in sync since, compounded by the back injury. That regression is perfectly timed for his contract extension this offseason, we should consider it good fortune actually. Otherwise if he maintained 17 and 9 someone probably want to throw crazy money at him.

[Knoxxx]

https://airalamo.com/jeremy-sochan-sits-elite-company-passing-impressive-benchmark

was testing to see if this article would even post correctly from The Score app. Pretty good read, Sochan sixth fastest in Spurs history to 1500 points and 1000 rebounds.

[Pauleta14]

Sochan was our most prepared player to start the season, roaring out of the gates averaging 17 and 9. Then the broken thumb and he never got in sync since, compounded by the back injury. That regression is perfectly timed for his contract extension this offseason, we should consider it good fortune actually. Otherwise if he maintained 17 and 9 someone probably want to throw crazy money at him.

He would never have sustained his averages bc Wemby didn't really started his season yet. As we've seen, Sochan is a lot more comfortable without Wemby where he can roll and the play is much simpler (he doesn't have to think and the skillset required is less important)

Also he hadn't been game planned yet and we see what happen when opp team do it, they just make him dribble the ball or dare him to shoot allowing them to pack the paint.

Anything he brings on defense, he costs more on offense

[ambchang]

Who TF are MAGA and Pedo? :rollin

Stockton and Malone.

[Pauleta14]

Great timing for the sniffers :lol

[ambchang]

It never ceases to amaze me how people cannot understand the concept of game to game variance, and that sochan is a role player who is bound to have good games and bad. If he produces evenly with little variance throughout the year, he’d be know as Groundhog Day, which we all know who has that nickname.

Over the year sochan has improved in various aspects of the game, he still has glaring weaknesses in outside shooting, and should stay away from being a creator, which honestly not too many people in the league can do effectively but that fact seems to be lost on so many people. His defense is above average at the minimum, perimeter defense is very good to excellent, offensive rebounding is excellent, passing is adequate, defensive rebounding is slightly above average, cutting is good to excellent, finishing around the basket is good to excellent, and most importantly he seems to be working well with wemby with their inside passing.

To say sochan is a scrub and should be dumped is just a retarded take. To trade him for a useful piece I can see but then who that is is up for debate.

Sochan isn’t really that common of a player in this league, there are maybe 5 players currently in the league with that profile, with Aaron Gordon being a goal he should strive for.

His scoring this year, both in volume and efficient, are about 75th percentile. His ballhandling attribute are about middle of the league or so, his defense is estimated at 80th percentile, rebounding is close to 90th. Instead of focusing on what he can’t do, which admittedly are glaring, focus on what he can. It is the job of the coaching staff to figure out how he fits in the system and if one isn’t doable with wemby as the centre of it, ship him out for a decent return.

[exstatic]

It never ceases to amaze me how people cannot understand the concept of game to game variance, and that sochan is a role player who is bound to have good games and bad. If he produces evenly with little variance throughout the year, he’d be know as Groundhog Day, which we all know who has that nickname.

Over the year sochan has improved in various aspects of the game, he still has glaring weaknesses in outside shooting, and should stay away from being a creator, which honestly not too many people in the league can do effectively but that fact seems to be lost on so many people. His defense is above average at the minimum, perimeter defense is very good to excellent, offensive rebounding is excellent, passing is adequate, defensive rebounding is slightly above average, cutting is good to excellent, finishing around the basket is good to excellent, and most importantly he seems to be working well with wemby with their inside passing.

To say sochan is a scrub and should be dumped is just a retarded take. To trade him for a useful piece I can see but then who that is is up for debate.

Sochan isn’t really that common of a player in this league, there are maybe 5 players currently in the league with that profile, with Aaron Gordon being a goal he should strive for.

His scoring this year, both in volume and efficient, are about 75th percentile. His ballhandling attribute are about middle of the league or so, his defense is estimated at 80th percentile, rebounding is close to 90th. Instead of focusing on what he can’t do, which admittedly are glaring, focus on what he can. It is the job of the coaching staff to figure out how he fits in the system and if one isn’t doable with wemby as the centre of it, ship him out for a decent return.

How dare you bring common sense and thoughtfulness into the spursedgelords.com forums.

[polandprzem]

This team is shitty coached. Sochan is doing all good basketball fundamental things. It should be used better. As we could see two man game with Wemby earlier this year.

Now the scheme is allover the place. Spurs has no identity tbh. It's painful to watch. And I would not blame Sochan much as he plays a role now with limited minutes and with different lineups cause he he was thrown in in different Q minutes frame.

[ffadicted]

This team is shitty coached. Sochan is doing all good basketball fundamental things. It should be used better. As we could see two man game with Wemby earlier this year.

Now the scheme is allover the place. Spurs has no identity tbh. It's painful to watch. And I would not blame Sochan much as he plays a role now with limited minutes and with different lineups cause he he was thrown in in different Q minutes frame.

Agreed. Obviously he still makes bonehead plays and isn't a threat as a shooter, but you can see potential in the hussle and intangibles, as well as on the defensive end. Reality is that we spent the better part of a year trying to make him play point guard, and now we are spending an awful lot of minutes tryin to make him work as a backup C. It's outrageous.

I need to see a full year of Sochan playing exclusively his role at PF or SF in a big lineup to make any final judgements. It's criminal the disservice we've done developing him the last couple of years.

[polandprzem]

Also he is one with the character there where the rest of a team plays undesire ball.

This team needs some NASTY

[rascal]

Reality is that we spent the better part of a year trying to make him play point guard,

It was only 18 games.

[scott]

It never ceases to amaze me how people cannot understand the concept of game to game variance, and that sochan is a role player who is bound to have good games and bad. If he produces evenly with little variance throughout the year, he’d be know as Groundhog Day, which we all know who has that nickname.

Over the year sochan has improved in various aspects of the game, he still has glaring weaknesses in outside shooting, and should stay away from being a creator, which honestly not too many people in the league can do effectively but that fact seems to be lost on so many people. His defense is above average at the minimum, perimeter defense is very good to excellent, offensive rebounding is excellent, passing is adequate, defensive rebounding is slightly above average, cutting is good to excellent, finishing around the basket is good to excellent, and most importantly he seems to be working well with wemby with their inside passing.

To say sochan is a scrub and should be dumped is just a retarded take. To trade him for a useful piece I can see but then who that is is up for debate.

Sochan isn’t really that common of a player in this league, there are maybe 5 players currently in the league with that profile, with Aaron Gordon being a goal he should strive for.

His scoring this year, both in volume and efficient, are about 75th percentile. His ballhandling attribute are about middle of the league or so, his defense is estimated at 80th percentile, rebounding is close to 90th. Instead of focusing on what he can’t do, which admittedly are glaring, focus on what he can. It is the job of the coaching staff to figure out how he fits in the system and if one isn’t doable with wemby as the centre of it, ship him out for a decent return.

Good take. I think the piece you left out is fit. As you said, he isn't a very common archetype in this league, but honestly I think that's because that archetype is hard to fit into the modern NBA. There are certain team builds where it works, but I'm not sure that is the path the Spurs are going down... and it certainly doesn't seem to fit with a Wemby/Fox/Castle big 3.

That pushes him to be a bench player, and as KobesAchilles points out, there is only so much you should be willing to pay bench players.

My own opinion, which is worth nothing, is that Jeremy has shown growth in a lot of areas and that is good. He also has some weaknesses that are likely to be permanent deficiencies. I don't want to see the Spurs dole out a big contract to a piece that doesn't fit, because that's just what we always do. We already have fairly big contracts on two other pieces that that don't really fit in Keldon and Vassell. I give those contracts a bit more of a pass because at the time of those deals our future identity was less clear. But now it seems pretty obvious to me (barring some surprise big shake up) that it is going to be Wemby/Fox/Castle, and if that is the case, I think it is very fair to question how Sochan fits into that.

[ambchang]

^ fair points but I personally think that players with sochans profile can be useful in winning teams, despite his shooting woes. The brighter side is also how he seems to be fixing his shot, bit by bit. The weird hitch is lessened, and if it can move into a smoother release, it would also become a quicker release, which would make him more of a threat from outside.

In terms of the spurs system, again I’m seeing no system, it’s like throwing spaghetti on the wall and see if it sticks. But I hope FO will eventually realize wemby is actually Garnett 2.0, not Durant. His offensive and defensive strengths resembles a prime Garnett with an additional 10 feet range. Not the strongest of the ball handler like Durant, but most definitely way above average for a big, almost SF like. Good passing instincts though I recalled Garnett not being close to as good a passer off the dribble. If we can build a system with those strengths, I can see somewhat of a jokic role for wemby, but wemby has to move a bit closer to the high or low post instead of hanging out too much at the three point line.

Castle seems to be blossoming before our eyes but we saw that with sochan (not to that degree) but sochan was jerked around so much I believed he’s damaged goods now, so I hope FO learned from this and stop doing their crazy ass shit on a young player.

Fox I’m still on the fence, his speed and attacking of the basket is just elite, but with wemby hanging out at the three so much will they use this as a high pick and pop between the two? But then that would require three high level shooters around them and castle isnt one (yet). But if they decide to move wemby closer to the paint area as the hub then it may stop the castle drives.

At this point I just wish the FO will pick a lane. They pick up players like a granny at a flea market, just get whatever looks interesting at a right price.

[Obstructed_View]

Lol what a coincidence that Poland does nothing other than defend Sochan. :lol

[rankingtear]

I envision the third core player is flawed all defense type for it to be sustainable. That is why I think Sochan is the 3rd most important player in this group moving forward. Does not mean he would be the 3rd highest paid.

[SpursBills]

Fantastic work on that comparison. :bobo

I especially like your method of estimating gravity as a shooter. It shows that Sochan has essentially none, which agrees with the eye test.

I think the backlash against 100/5 is the extra digit in the number, or at least the sense that $100M is "too much" for someone like Sochan. That's why it's best to look at contracts in terms of % of the cap rather than absolute dollar amounts, especially with the cap growing so quickly. The MLE starts at 9% of the cap; 10% is hardly onerous for a young key role-player.

imo 100/5 is fair value, 90/5 would be team-friendly, and 80/5 would be a steal.

I'd be remiss if I didn't also present the other side of the argument though. People who are down on Sochan have absolutely valid points. I'm high-ish on Sochan, but a big part of that is his age. I absolutely don't blame anyone on this board who thinks he's worth a 4/48 or even less, since if he never develops additional perimeter skill and stays as he currently is, he's basically Jarred Vanderbilt who is probably overpaid at 4/48 with the Lakers. If he were the same age as Vassell or Keldon, I'd be way lower on him and probably offer something like 4/40 or even lower, but I'm still willing to bet on some shooting improvement. If he can get himself up to 2.5 3PM/100 possessions in the next 3 years, there's very little separating him from other high level role playing big wing. I hate that everything boils down to the ability to hit a corner 3 consistently, but it really will depend on how the Spurs feel his shooting projects over the next 3-4 years.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Sochan has been asked to do too many things in my view and there are a couple of things that are most uncomfortable for him - playing PG and playing backup C while defending perimeter scorers as well. If Sochan can be asked to play PF and some SF and paired with Fox and Wemby, I think he can be a pest for the opposing team and a net positive despite lack of 3P shooting. But if his shooting perks up, he will be a vital member of the core. but the Spurs must get a good backup C and free up Sochan from that role.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Sochan wouldn’t even be in any playoff team’s rotation with his antiquated game and low b ball IQ. His defense is wildly overrated. :lol

[Strategic]

The Spurs don’t appear to have a system in place to develop young talent at this time. It’s sink or swim. Except for Wemby and Castle all the young guys are treading water. I’m resigned to the notion that Jeremy will get a contract and that contract will be hard for him to live up to. I really don’t give a damn if he’s a good locker room guy. He made a personal choice to play only 1 year in college after which he thought he was ready for the NBA. He wasn’t. I’d rather he focused on being a lock-down defender. People here saying he should get a chance to be a 3 or a 4, but with Wemby on the team the 4 means playing the 5 on offense. That leaves the 3 position. 3 position sometimes has to help bring the ball up the court, which his backers on here admit he can’t do. As it is, this team has to be built around Victor.

[Obstructed_View]

Sochan has only been asked to do one thing: develop a reliable jump shot. How does a professional basketball player go this long without being able to do that?

Jeremy does a ton of things that are super valuable, but it's hard to see them when he has a hitchy, inconsistent shot that he doesn't trust this far into his career. Castle shoots with confidence like a seasoned vet. And suddenly, like magic, his numbers start to improve. Not his minutes, but that's another thread. Jeremy likely starts if his jumper didn't still stink.

[scott]

Sochan wouldn’t even be in any playoff team’s rotation with his antiquated game and low b ball IQ. His defense is wildly overrated. :lol

This is true, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have potential and isn't worth keeping... but I think that's where a lot of us kind of cap out at an MLE-level deal. The potential is worth that level of a gamble (and I'd only do a 3 year deal if possible, make the 4th year a team option if possible).

The same can be said of Vassell and Keldon. Neither of those guys are sniffing heavy rotation minutes on a serious team. Thankfully this forum is a little more realistic, unlike Reddit where people think these Friendship Care Bears are part of some untouchable core.

[spurraider21]

Sochan has only been asked to do one thing: develop a reliable jump shot. How does a professional basketball player go this long without being able to do that?

Jeremy does a ton of things that are super valuable, but it's hard to see them when he has a hitchy, inconsistent shot that he doesn't trust this far into his career. Castle shoots with confidence like a seasoned vet. And suddenly, like magic, his numbers start to improve. Not his minutes, but that's another thread. Jeremy likely starts if his jumper didn't still stink.
eh, he's been asked to do a lot of things. he is asked to defend guards. he is asked to defend and rebound amongst bigs. he's asked to be a pick and roll finisher. he often has to use footwork to get shots off in the paint against bigger guys defending him

i would absolutely agree that outside shooting was his biggest swing skill, and the improvement there so far... is hard to really detect. percentage is decent enough this year but on much much lower volume. he's also still just 21, so he has a lot of improvement left in him

[KobesAchilles]

This is true, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have potential and isn't worth keeping... but I think that's where a lot of us kind of cap out at an MLE-level deal. The potential is worth that level of a gamble (and I'd only do a 3 year deal if possible, make the 4th year a team option if possible).

The same can be said of Vassell and Keldon. Neither of those guys are sniffing heavy rotation minutes on a serious team. Thankfully this forum is a little more realistic, unlike Reddit where people think these Friendship Care Bears are part of some untouchable core.
I think it’s fair to say any hate Sochan gets is due to organizational faults. For instance, FP stated that Sochan wouldn’t be a starter on any contender (Lakers aside maybe). And that is most likely a true statement when you run down the team list. But I don’t blame Sochan for that. I blame the Spurs.

Sochan ideally shouldn’t be a starter on this team. He should be a high energy bench guy who comes in and fights for rebounds, plays good defense, maybe even does a little play making/finishing. That should be his role on our team. But we don’t have the talent for him to play his ideal role. So instead of getting talent to help Sochan the Spurs tried to magically transform him into a higher level player than he should be asked to be.

Should Sochan have ever been asked to run PG? The answer is no. And to those idiots who say well it was only 18 games, it wasn’t. It was a whole wasted offseason and a whole wasted season in general. The Spurs moved Sochan around so much that he had no chance of having a good sophomore season. It hurt his offensive game more than I think anyone here would like to admit. Role players are specialists for a reason and the Spurs would’ve been wiser to acknowledge that fact instead of being cute.

Now to where I do blame Sochan is his horrible fucking shot. How tf is your shot that bad? I don’t want to see any videos of Sochan shooting 3s anymore. He doesn’t shoot them in the game bc he doesn’t feel comfortable with his shot bc he knows it’s garbage. I’d rather he shot 100 shots from 8 feet, 100 from 10 feet, 100 from 12 feet, 100 from 14 and then 100 from 16 every single day. It bothers me to see him only shooting 3s as if that’s going to fix his shot. If you’re going to completely rehaul his entire shooting mechanics then you might as well go back to the basics all the damn way

TLDR: Spurs are a badly run organization still with how we use Sochan. Sochan needs to learn how to shoot if he is stay a starter on a contender or else he is just a nice bench player for the rest of his career.

[spurraider21]

Sochan ideally shouldn’t be a starter on this team. He should be a high energy bench guy who comes in and fights for rebounds, plays good defense, maybe even does a little play making/finishing. That should be his role on our team. But we don’t have the talent for him to play his ideal role. So instead of getting talent to help Sochan the Spurs tried to magically transform him into a higher level player than he should be asked to be.
i dont know if you've noticed, but he's been coming off the bench for a while now

[rascal]

Sochan has no excuses.

He was gifted a starting position while not deserving to be a starter as a rookie and was only a starter because the spurs didn't care to win games
and were tanking/experimenting as a team so he had many opportunities to improve while getting starters minutes.

He only played 18 games as a starting pg then he was moved back to pf and had some of his worst games at pf. I can't buy into his overall poor play was due to the 18 games he put time in as pg.

At first many people in here said it was good for his development to play pg when it happened and now the narrative is it is the excuse for his slow development.

The reality is Sochan is limited in his abilities, will never be a high volume shooter/scorer and is best suited as a pf coming off the bench. There is no justification to have to try to start him because he was a top ten draft pick.

Best line of action for the Spurs is to get a pf with a higher ceiling and see Sochan as only a solid backup pf, whose minutes will depend on team matchups.

[Extra Stout]

Sochan has value. But given that the Spurs have gaping holes at forward, and he is a forward, if he were that guy he’d be starting and playing 36 minutes. That he isn’t tells you what even the Spurs think of him.

[RC_Drunkford]

Now to where I do blame Sochan is his horrible fucking shot. How tf is your shot that bad? I don’t want to see any videos of Sochan shooting 3s anymore. He doesn’t shoot them in the game bc he doesn’t feel comfortable with his shot bc he knows it’s garbage. I’d rather he shot 100 shots from 8 feet, 100 from 10 feet, 100 from 12 feet, 100 from 14 and then 100 from 16 every single day. It bothers me to see him only shooting 3s as if that’s going to fix his shot. If you’re going to completely rehaul his entire shooting mechanics then you might as well go back to the basics all the damn way



he kinda does that from the baseline in warm ups. The funny thing is that he has that hitch in his shooting motion, even when he's shooting it from close range. I got that on video.

[KobesAchilles]

he kinda does that from the baseline in warm ups. The funny thing is that he has that hitch in his shooting motion, even when he's shooting it from close range. I got that on video.
I don’t doubt it. His shot will always be the reason why he should stay on the bench going forward. But not as a back up C. That’s not a good position for him. Just put him as a damn PF.

[Mnky]

Doesn't back down until it's the end of a quarter and he gets the ball WIDE OPEN because he's always WIDE OPEN and then he competes so hard he takes a shot clock violation instead of shooting.

When he has Wemby, Fox, CP3, Barnes ...etc He should be forcing a shot? That's not his job at all man, not even close. Wemby is the star and closer and dude can't beat a 1v1. That puts the rest of the team in a bad spot... that definitely isn't the role players fault. Not being very objective.

Yea okay bud.

[scott]

When he has Wemby, Fox, CP3, Barnes ...etc He should be forcing a shot? That's not his job at all man, not even close. Wemby is the star and closer and dude can't beat a 1v1. That puts the rest of the team in a bad spot... that definitely isn't the role players fault. Not being very objective.

Yea okay bud.

Yes, when there is 1 second on the shot clock you have to force the shot. :lol

[Mnky]

Yes, when there is 1 second on the shot clock you have to force the shot. :lol

Lil bro used the perfect situation that happens once a week to make his case. Feels bad.

[Pauleta14]

Jeremy is the one who will benefit the most from Wemby's absence, the game'plays will be a lot simpler, we'll see a lot of P&R and he won't be expose as much on the perimeter

Here comes the 5 years/$150M extention... smh

[LeBowen]

Jeremy is the one who will benefit the most from Wemby's absence, the game'plays will be a lot simpler, we'll see a lot of P&R and he won't be expose as much on the perimeter

Here comes the 5 years/$150M extention... smh

Tbh, he won't.
He'll never be an actual C, playing him against backup bigs was bad, having him out there against starters will be disgusting. And it's not his fault, he's a forward.

[Obstructed_View]

He came in shooting with both hands.

That's how you watch him play

Sochan shooting one handed free throws tonight.
One of us is paying attention, and it ain't you.

[Pauleta14]

Tbh, he won't.
He'll never be an actual C, playing him against backup bigs was bad, having him out there against starters will be disgusting. And it's not his fault, he's a forward.

I assumed he wouldn't play C anymore tbh, it's messed up if they keep using him as a 5.

Haven't watched the game yet, just recall Sochan being a lot more comfortable when he doesn't have to think too much or spread the floor.

He's at his best offensively when he's inside, active on the offensive rebound and slashing/cutting. Wemby makes things too complicated with his poor court awareness and shooting limitations.

[Mnky]

The loudest posters are always the quietest when the crow comes around.

[ambchang]

Jeremy is the one who will benefit the most from Wemby's absence, the game'plays will be a lot simpler, we'll see a lot of P&R and he won't be expose as much on the perimeter

Here comes the 5 years/$150M extention... smh

It's almost like you are trying to trip over yourself spewing out bad takes. I mean, at least look things up, it's not hard to do.

Sochan advanced stats:



Sochan's Stats
ORtg
DRtg
NetRtg
eFG%
TS%
AST%
REB%
BLK%
TO%
PPP


Overall
114.37
113.07
+1.3
57.86
60.51
14.43
13.96
1.83
3.21
1.04


W Wemby
115.97
110.02
+5.94
62.03
64.4
12.05
14.04
1.15
2.83
1.13


W/O Wemby
112.48
116.7
-4.22
52.46
55.5
17.16
13.86
2.61
3.67
0.93



However, the more important question is, given this is Wemby's team, how does Wemby play with Sochan on the floor? You have continuously claimed that Sochan doesn't fit in the Wemby world, despite multiple people showing statistics that says the contrary, so I am not expecting this to got through that cranium of yours, but in the spirit of avoiding people actually believing in incorrect information because they are being drowned in fake bullshit all day every day, here are the stats for Wemby overall, with and without Sochan on the floor.



Wemby's Stats
ORtg
DRtg
NetRtg
eFG%
TS%
AST%
REB%
BLK%
TO%
PPP


Overall
115.61
112.81
+2.81
55.28
58.86
18.82
17.72
10.48!!!!!
4.98
1.02


W Sochan
115.97
110.02
+5.94
51.57
56.86
17.65
17.19
11.28!!!!
5.44
0.98


W/O Sochan
115.44
114.17
+1.27
57
59.84
19.43
17.99
10.08!!!!
4.75
1.04



You can interpret this data however you want, assuming you actually can understand what this is, but the idea that Sochan plays better without Wemby is just demonstratively false. The team also plays better with both on the court, Wemby is better scoring wise without Sochan than with (no surprises there) but he plays better defense with Sochan helping out as well.

[Ice009]

Where do you get those stats from to compare?

[Spursfanfromafar]

It's almost like you are trying to trip over yourself spewing out bad takes. I mean, at least look things up, it's not hard to do.

Sochan advanced stats:



Sochan's Stats
ORtg
DRtg
NetRtg
eFG%
TS%
AST%
REB%
BLK%
TO%
PPP


Overall
114.37
113.07
+1.3
57.86
60.51
14.43
13.96
1.83
3.21
1.04


W Wemby
115.97
110.02
+5.94
62.03
64.4
12.05
14.04
1.15
2.83
1.13


W/O Wemby
112.48
116.7
-4.22
52.46
55.5
17.16
13.86
2.61
3.67
0.93



However, the more important question is, given this is Wemby's team, how does Wemby play with Sochan on the floor? You have continuously claimed that Sochan doesn't fit in the Wemby world, despite multiple people showing statistics that says the contrary, so I am not expecting this to got through that cranium of yours, but in the spirit of avoiding people actually believing in incorrect information because they are being drowned in fake bullshit all day every day, here are the stats for Wemby overall, with and without Sochan on the floor.



Wemby's Stats
ORtg
DRtg
NetRtg
eFG%
TS%
AST%
REB%
BLK%
TO%
PPP


Overall
115.61
112.81
+2.81
55.28
58.86
18.82
17.72
10.48!!!!!
4.98
1.02


W Sochan
115.97
110.02
+5.94
51.57
56.86
17.65
17.19
11.28!!!!
5.44
0.98


W/O Sochan
115.44
114.17
+1.27
57
59.84
19.43
17.99
10.08!!!!
4.75
1.04



You can interpret this data however you want, assuming you actually can understand what this is, but the idea that Sochan plays better without Wemby is just demonstratively false. The team also plays better with both on the court, Wemby is better scoring wise without Sochan than with (no surprises there) but he plays better defense with Sochan helping out as well.

Thanks for these stats. It's but obvious that Sochan's improvement on defense has coincided with his increased chemistry with Wemby. And Sochan should, therefore, be starting with Wemby whenever our young superstar is back on the court. As and when Castle can develop a jump start, he will form an important member of the Fox, Wemby, Sochan and the 3&D starter (as of now its Vassell, but it could be someone else next season).

[Mugen]

I think Castle/Sochan will improve shooting wise.

But a Fox/Castle/Sochan/Wemby lineup is just asking for trouble in today's pace n space NBA tbh.

I'd consider Sochan as a nice 6th man unless he becomes an average NBA shooter on decent volume. That's a tall order IMO.

[scott]

Where do you get those stats from to compare?

pbpstats.com - go to the "On/Off" tab and then "Wowy Combinations". One of my favorite sites and tools.

Edit: Actually, that is slightly different than what ambchang is posting, the pbpstats I directed you to will give you team stats with different lineup combos whereas amb is posting player on/off stats, which is nice. So I'm curious as well!

[scott]

It's almost like you are trying to trip over yourself spewing out bad takes. I mean, at least look things up, it's not hard to do.

Sochan advanced stats:



Sochan's Stats
ORtg
DRtg
NetRtg
eFG%
TS%
AST%
REB%
BLK%
TO%
PPP


Overall
114.37
113.07
+1.3
57.86
60.51
14.43
13.96
1.83
3.21
1.04


W Wemby
115.97
110.02
+5.94
62.03
64.4
12.05
14.04
1.15
2.83
1.13


W/O Wemby
112.48
116.7
-4.22
52.46
55.5
17.16
13.86
2.61
3.67
0.93



However, the more important question is, given this is Wemby's team, how does Wemby play with Sochan on the floor? You have continuously claimed that Sochan doesn't fit in the Wemby world, despite multiple people showing statistics that says the contrary, so I am not expecting this to got through that cranium of yours, but in the spirit of avoiding people actually believing in incorrect information because they are being drowned in fake bullshit all day every day, here are the stats for Wemby overall, with and without Sochan on the floor.



Wemby's Stats
ORtg
DRtg
NetRtg
eFG%
TS%
AST%
REB%
BLK%
TO%
PPP


Overall
115.61
112.81
+2.81
55.28
58.86
18.82
17.72
10.48!!!!!
4.98
1.02


W Sochan
115.97
110.02
+5.94
51.57
56.86
17.65
17.19
11.28!!!!
5.44
0.98


W/O Sochan
115.44
114.17
+1.27
57
59.84
19.43
17.99
10.08!!!!
4.75
1.04



You can interpret this data however you want, assuming you actually can understand what this is, but the idea that Sochan plays better without Wemby is just demonstratively false. The team also plays better with both on the court, Wemby is better scoring wise without Sochan than with (no surprises there) but he plays better defense with Sochan helping out as well.

Thanks for posting these. I think there is an interesting story being told by these numbers.

It's pretty clear how Sochan benefits from being on the floor with Wemby. The team is just better in everyway when Sochan minutes conincide with Wemby minutes. However, looking at Wemby's on/off's with Sochan, it seems that the defense improves significantly with Sochan in the lineup (which is not surprising) but the offense gets a little clunkier but doesn't that doesn't necessarily result in significantly different outcomes. Our ORTG is around the same in Wemby with Sochan versus Wemby without Sochan, but the team shooting % dips in Wemby + Sochan scenarios.

I think this generally conforms with the eye test - that Jeremy kind of crowds the court offensively when he shares it with Wemby. However I'd say that visually it appeared that they were really starting to figure it out this year with Sochan doing a lot more off the ball movement and cutting, getting open in the dunker spot for lobs, etc. Sure enough, their ORTG on the court together this year is +5 over last year. That's some nice improvement, obviously a lot of that comes from their individual development, but also the chemistry they are building with one another.

In the first game without Wemby last night I thought Sochan played very well offensively and gave us a glimpse at what he can be as a bench player in a lot of non-Wemby lineups if that is the direction we go next year (which, IMO is what we should do with about half of his time with Wemby and half without). He was active, cutting, playing in the flow of the game. And of course, he played solid D which was most important.

Despite all the hand wringing, I think Sochan has shown some nice growth this year. Obviously still a lot of room for improvement, but he's still 21. I like his progression, and my eye test matches up with his DARKO chart. And I say this as someone who came into the year a Sochan skeptic. I threw a comparison to Jalen Johnson in here. They are not at all similar players, but I think a good comparison in terms of a guy who took a significant 3rd year leap. Sochan trajectory in year 3 at the same age is pretty similar.

https://i.imgur.com/oUEMGe3.png

[spurraider21]

thats encouraging. with this being sochan's 3rd year already, its easy to forget how young he still is. he just has to keep improving

branham and wesley are also the same age (all 3 of them are both turning 22 in between the months of march and may). problem is branham hasnt shown any meaningful trajectory and basically peaked as a rookie. wesley has shown some development but not enough to get into the rotation with what is now becoming a pretty crowded backcourt (i would have liked to see him get some run over Tre Jones earlier this year, but post-Fox trade, its not going ot happen)

but with Tre gone, Paul far from certain to come back, im glad we have Wesley's option picked up for next year

[John B]

I mean I personally like playing with someone like Sochan because he plays defense, gets you the ball and never a ball hog. But the guy hesitates to shoot so bad, the TNT commentator was saying not to worry planting on him as he prefers to pass the ball - that’s a bad scouting report on him. I freaking want to throw the tv when he pass on open shots. Luckily he made end of a quarter shot last night. He was sooo wide open because his defender won’t even bother

[spurraider21]

I mean I personally like playing with someone like Sochan because he plays defense, gets you the ball and never a ball hog. But the guy hesitates to shoot so bad, the TNT commentator was saying not to worry planting on him as he prefers to pass the ball - that’s a bad scouting report on him. I freaking want to throw the tv when he pass on open shots. Luckily he made end of a quarter shot last night. He was sooo wide open because his defender won’t even butter.
defendant actually ran away from him because he was more concerned about the extra pass than sochan shooting :lol

[John B]

defendant actually ran away from him because he was more concerned about the extra pass than sochan shooting :lol

Exactly. Sochan rushing to bring the ball down, just to stop and pass for a half-court set-up is sooo damn annoying.

[Pauleta14]

We got some real geniuses on ST looking for stats that shows a player benefits from playing with Wemby... :lmao

Idiocracy we live in smh

[ambchang]

Where do you get those stats from to compare?

https://www.fantasylabs.com/nba/on-off/

[ambchang]

Jeremy is the one who will benefit the most from Wemby's absence, the game'plays will be a lot simpler, we'll see a lot of P&R and he won't be expose as much on the perimeter

Here comes the 5 years/$150M extention... smh


We got some real geniuses on ST looking for stats that shows a player benefits from playing with Wemby... :lmao

Idiocracy we live in smh

At least you finally figured out you don’t have to be a genius to realize players benefit from playing with wemby, because retard like you couldn’t figure that out yesterday.

[Jordan Jackson]

This thread is going to be pretty funny to look back at in about 5 years. If the asteroid doesn’t get us first.

[John B]

So much for Sochan’s defense with Cunningham erupted to 25 pts and 12 assists. I know Sochan works hard on his defense, trying to stay in front of his man, poking, disrupting, and getting into their skin, but it’s like poking a bear sometimes. 8pts and 3 rebounds last night in 28 mins, while Mamu at 10 pts and 7 rebounds in 21 minutes. Sure he was 2 for 5 at downtown last night, but his defender leaves him wide open. What bothers me is he’s always looking to pass and almost never wants to make a jump shot. I doubt it will ever be his game. Surely Sochan is NOT my ideal starting 4. I hope the PATFO will work hard to draft or trade for Spurs future starting 4, because Sochan is not it.

[John B]

This thread is going to be pretty funny to look back at in about 5 years. If the asteroid doesn’t get us first.

I doubt I want Sochan to be with Spurs in 5 years. There are plenty of players in this draft who can defend and makes a jump shot. I hope it’s PATFO priority to plug that gaping hole at 4, because Sochan is not it.

[Pauleta14]

At least you finally figured out you don’t have to be a genius to realize players benefit from playing with wemby, because retard like you couldn’t figure that out yesterday.

You really don't think much before posting, do you? :lol

[Chomag]

Jeremy is great for a high energy and hustle player coming off the bench to stir things up but that's it. He is just too dumb as a player to have any bigger roll then that.

[ambchang]

You really don't think much before posting, do you? :lol

Oh look who got his bad takes thrown back at him and can’t respond, so spew out random crap.

[ambchang]

So much for Sochan’s defense with Cunningham erupted to 25 pts and 12 assists. I know Sochan works hard on his defense, trying to stay in front of his man, poking, disrupting, and getting into their skin, but it’s like poking a bear sometimes. 8pts and 3 rebounds last night in 28 mins, while Mamu at 10 pts and 7 rebounds in 21 minutes. Sure he was 2 for 5 at downtown last night, but his defender leaves him wide open. What bothers me is he’s always looking to pass and almost never wants to make a jump shot. I doubt it will ever be his game. Surely Sochan is NOT my ideal starting 4. I hope the PATFO will work hard to draft or trade for Spurs future starting 4, because Sochan is not it.

Cunningham also got 7 TO. He was hot and took sochan to task a few plays, but he wasn’t the only guy on Cunningham. It’s like saying Wembys defense sucks after embiid hung 73 on the spurs.

[exstatic]

So much for Sochan’s defense with Cunningham erupted to 25 pts and 12 assists. I know Sochan works hard on his defense, trying to stay in front of his man, poking, disrupting, and getting into their skin, but it’s like poking a bear sometimes. 8pts and 3 rebounds last night in 28 mins, while Mamu at 10 pts and 7 rebounds in 21 minutes. Sure he was 2 for 5 at downtown last night, but his defender leaves him wide open. What bothers me is he’s always looking to pass and almost never wants to make a jump shot. I doubt it will ever be his game. Surely Sochan is NOT my ideal starting 4. I hope the PATFO will work hard to draft or trade for Spurs future starting 4, because Sochan is not it.

Sochan didn’t start,and wasn’t on the floor for that first Q burst Detroit put on. If you’re going to go at him,you need to post the head to head stats matchup.

[LeBowen]

Sochan didn’t start,and wasn’t on the floor for that first Q burst Detroit put on. If you’re going to go at him,you need to post the head to head stats matchup.

He started the third quarter instead of Devin, played 8:19, Pistons won it by 20.
Cade had 9 points and 3 assists in the third.

I won't put the loss on Jeremy, but at this point he's not a player worth adjusting to.
He's got a fundamentally flawed skillset. If that skillset works well with the rest of the roster, fine.
But if it doesn't, we shouldn't lose any sleep because of it.

[polandprzem]

Sochan shooting one handed free throws tonight.
One of us is paying attention, and it ain't you.
He started the season with both hands \

moron

[Jordan Jackson]

I doubt I want Sochan to be with Spurs in 5 years. There are plenty of players in this draft who can defend and makes a jump shot. I hope it’s PATFO priority to plug that gaping hole at 4, because Sochan is not it.

oh. I agree. He’ll be long gone by then. As the talent level improves he’ll get pushed down the depth chart. Right now he’s a good hustle player and he’s around Wemby’s age - so probably someone fun to hangout with.

I’m not one of those delusionals on here thinking he’s the second coming of Aaron Gordon or all star in the making.

[Gandalf]

The Spurs might want to consider drafting Anderson Garcia from Texas A&M late in the second round if they can grab a pick there, or otherwise try to sign him if he goes undrafted. He could be a Sochan replacement if Sochan doesn’t improve his shot.

Garcia is sometimes referred to as the ‘Dominican Rodman,’ rebounds, defends, passes, and does a lot of little things well. He’s not yet a ‘great’ shooter, but he can hit the three, and hit one in the tourney last year to send the game to overtime. I don’t see him listed on nbadraft.net’s mock, so he might go undrafted, but there were some NBA scouts at the game today.

[quentin_compson]

As long as he is basically a non-shooter, Sochan propably won't be starting on a really good playoff team. I hope the Spurs will see things in a similar way when it comes to his next contract.

[Pauleta14]

Oh look who got his bad takes thrown back at him and can’t respond, so spew out random crap.

You're an idiot with too much time in your hands.

Never too late to learn stats

[ambchang]

You're an idiot with too much time in your hands.

Never too late to learn stats

And pray tell how you’d interpret them and how I was wrong?

[Obstructed_View]

He started the season with both hands \

moron
Lol are you suggesting that he regressed? That doesn't strengthen your argument, princess.

[polandprzem]

Lol are you suggesting that he regressed? That doesn't strengthen your argument, princess.

I am not surprised you have no idea what was the argument about.

[spurraider21]

cade is something like 6'6 with about a 7 foot wingspan, and is one of the better young players in the league, having taken a pretty big leap this year. he's averaging 25 and 9.5 per game, he's no joke, and was an all-star.

sochan's not going to win every matchup every time. but yeah... this is the type of player he was basically built to defend

[Pauleta14]

And pray tell how you’d interpret them and how I was wrong?

You can make stats say literally anything you want, every PR , lobbies or political parties are using them to sell any narrative for a reason.

Go watch "Thank you for smoking" it might help u

Stats NEVER teach you anything, it can give you a trend or clearer view of stuf you've seen or can see.

Isolating a stat = creating the conditions of a stupid conclusion OR a convenient one.

What you're doing is basically looking for the stats that fit your narrative, you can do that even with the stupidest ones.

Our first convo before you went "Karen" on me was about Tre Jones and you did the same thing you're doing now with Sochan, ending up selling the fact that he's a good NBA PG because "look at the stats when he plays with Wemby!!" when I was defending the fact that he didn't move the needle, just was the only decent ball handler available and that Wemby being more handicaped without him didn't mean he was good, just that the others were terrible. You don't need stats to see that or explain this logic.

The same thing is happening presently about Sochan with your obsession to highlight that he's our best defender blabla When it's not only relative to the available personnel but it's also just one side of a coin if you just focus on the defensive end for ex.
The big picture isn't very flattering for Sochan but you conveniently pick what suits you.

Long story short stop using your stats to defend an opinion, it's absurd and you don't understand how to use them anyway

[ambchang]

You can make stats say literally anything you want, every PR , lobbies or political parties are using them to sell any narrative for a reason.

Go watch "Thank you for smoking" it might help u

Stats NEVER teach you anything, it can give you a trend or clearer view of stuf you've seen or can see.

Isolating a stat = creating the conditions of a stupid conclusion OR a convenient one.

What you're doing is basically looking for the stats that fit your narrative, you can do that even with the stupidest ones.

Our first convo before you went "Karen" on me was about Tre Jones and you did the same thing you're doing now with Sochan, ending up selling the fact that he's a good NBA PG because "look at the stats when he plays with Wemby!!" when I was defending the fact that he didn't move the needle, just was the only decent ball handler available and that Wemby being more handicaped without him didn't mean he was good, just that the others were terrible. You don't need stats to see that or explain this logic.

The same thing is happening presently about Sochan with your obsession to highlight that he's our best defender blabla When it's not only relative to the available personnel but it's also just one side of a coin if you just focus on the defensive end for ex.
The big picture isn't very flattering for Sochan but you conveniently pick what suits you.

Long story short stop using your stats to defend an opinion, it's absurd and you don't understand how to use them anyway

:lol. Find some stats to defend your opinions then. It’s not one stat, it’s a series of different stats from different sources over a long time frame that disputes your off the cuff random takes. It’s bad so just own it and move on. Saying all the stats are bad and your eye test is the standard is about as laughably bad as it gets.


As for Tre. I’ve always maintained that he made the spurs better that year, which he did because we had no other PG to run the offence. Doesn’t mean he’s a good PG, means he’s a better PG than anything else he had. And he’s shown it. It’s just the you are too dense to see that.m

I don’t recall saying he’s the best defender on the team because that’s clearly wemby. He’s a good perimeter defender with clear issues on offense. But he does put a totally different dimension to how the spurs can play. When trained properly he can be extremely useful. I’d say his prototype is unusual and can help the spurs in many situations. He is an above average defender with excellent cutting to the basket.

You claimed I said those things? Bring receipts. You can’t because you’re making shit up and act like they are facts like you always do.

[Obstructed_View]

I am not surprised you have no idea what was the argument about.
I know exactly what it's about. Jeremy Sochan can't shoot and it's evident to anyone with a brain that he hasn't put in any work on his shot. You are salty because he's Polish and you're an emotional baby. Defending your boy, you said that he came into the season shooting free throws with two hands, which is wrong, probably a lie. When caught in said lie, you try to act like I'm the one who is confused but your tenuous grasp of English combined with your thoroughly limited knowledge of basketball makes that impossible.

[exstatic]

I know exactly what it's about. Jeremy Sochan can't shoot and it's evident to anyone with a brain that he hasn't put in any work on his shot. You are salty because he's Polish and you're an emotional baby. Defending your boy, you said that he came into the season shooting free throws with two hands, which is wrong, probably a lie. When caught in said lie, you try to act like I'm the one who is confused but your tenuous grasp of English combined with your thoroughly limited knowledge of basketball makes that impossible.

That’s not even remotely true.

[Ice009]

Maybe I'm not remembering right, but I thought I did remember him shooting free throws in a game at the start of the season with two hands. Am I wrong? Maybe it was one game, or during the same game and he went back to one handed free throws in the same game.

[Pauleta14]

:lol. Find some stats to defend your opinions then. It’s not one stat, it’s a series of different stats from different sources over a long time frame that disputes your off the cuff random takes. It’s bad so just own it and move on. Saying all the stats are bad and your eye test is the standard is about as laughably bad as it gets.


As for Tre. I’ve always maintained that he made the spurs better that year, which he did because we had no other PG to run the offence. Doesn’t mean he’s a good PG, means he’s a better PG than anything else he had. And he’s shown it. It’s just the you are too dense to see that.m

I don’t recall saying he’s the best defender on the team because that’s clearly wemby. He’s a good perimeter defender with clear issues on offense. But he does put a totally different dimension to how the spurs can play. When trained properly he can be extremely useful. I’d say his prototype is unusual and can help the spurs in many situations. He is an above average defender with excellent cutting to the basket.

You claimed I said those things? Bring receipts. You can’t because you’re making shit up and act like they are facts like you always do.

I'm not going into ur mad convo, it'll be my last answer

You still don't get the point, you talk about "a series of diff stats" as if you were making a point when you're confirming mine. One or a (selected) series of stats doesn't change the fact that not only it'll always be a fraction of the whole picture but even if you had all the data potentially available it would'nt teach you more than what your eyes can see, because humans aren't robots and too many aspects of the games and human behavior aren't possible to transcribe.

What data can tell you a player is clumsy (like Sochan is) for ex? Only your eyes can.

The point is stop thinking coming with some data can make you win an argument, it's insane even if it's a habit in the NBA world.

Try to be humble maybe?

Maybe stop, like too many on ST, acting like whoever has a diff opinion is a hater or doesn't know shit? It's fine to disagree, in the end one of us will be right, the other wrong and we'll go to the next topic.

As for Tre, you said a lot more than that, you were defending the fact that he should be part of the core and be extended as he represented a quality option as a backup PG. I said at that time and even more today that it was insane to envision keeping a player that had so many limitations on both sides of the court but you kept coming with your "data". Your only argument being as usual that I didn't "backup my claim with stats" as if watching Tre Jones being embarrased on D or a liability on O wasn't enough.

Lastly, regarding Sochan, the fact that after 3 seasons you think that the issue is that he isn't being coached properly is ... WTF Ok he has some excuses but he also has had a lot more help and advantages than the average rookie entering the league. PATFO literary offered him the starting position that even in college he never had!

People don't change, Sochan issues/limitations aren't just basketball/skill related and he's shown those enough in 3 years.

His ceiling is a defensive plug-in role player if he manages to be decent at shooting open 3s. He can't be seen as part of the core of a team, he would by default lower the IQ average of said team, which is a lack of ambition to me.

Spurs can find a lot better to develop with a lot higher floor.

[Pauleta14]

Maybe I'm not remembering right, but I thought I did remember him shooting free throws in a game at the start of the season with two hands. Am I wrong? Maybe it was one game, or during the same game and he went back to one handed free throws in the same game.

Yes, he did start the season with both hands

[rascal]

That’s not even remotely true.

Maybe he has but he is still shooting with a long hesitation on his shot.

The sooner the Spurs see Sochan as a backup PF and not try fitting him into positions he can't handle and stop gifting him starter's minutes and get a better PF the team will better for it.

[John B]

No more tweener 4 please. We had Keldon, then Sochan who can’t shoot. It’s really disgusting when Sochan pushes the ball hard just to stop mid-court to pass and set-up a half court offense. The opponents already knows he will pass! Playing with Timmy who can man the post against big man yes, but Wemby needs help against the likes of Zubac who likes taking 20 rebounds from Spurs. No more undersized PF please.