Spurs Select F Jeremy Sochan with the 9th Pick in the 2022 NBA Draft

[TekXX]

All these amazing videos of Sochan, he'll be fucking Michael Jordan out there and not exactly like he was the first two years.

[Ariel]

I’m optimistic that the reason the FO has not moved on any trade like John Collins is because Sochan has shown significant progress.
If anything I think the Spurs not bolstering their forward rotation doesn't necessarily mean they're commited to Sochan long term, but that they're trying to give him one last season to prove himself (ideally in the playoffs) before they make up their minds on his future witth the team. If he has the minutes but doesn't show significant improvement, you probably offer him end of the bench salary, include him in any trade scenarios, or let him walk outright. I would prefer any of those options over taking a leap of faith with a huge contract before having more clarity on where he stands.

[DAF86]

If this guy ever learns to shoot it at a league average level we would be so based.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKYd6FztHlOwS8a_vkPYjNHYVxUX2W3 aCbrw&s

[scott]

The Steph Sochan era begins this fall, tbh

[Ice009]

Can't fault him. He's putting in work. Looks like he really wants it which is great. I hope it pays off for both him and the Spurs.

[exstatic]

All these amazing videos of Sochan, he'll be fucking Michael Jordan out there and not exactly like he was the first two years.

He’s played three seasons.

By your logic,no player will ever improve,because they will only play like they always have.

[KobesAchilles]

Am I the only one bothered by these work out videos? At first glance you see it and you think man Sochan is putting in the work! And then you think about it and you’re like this is a pretty useless workout. Sochan is never going to shoot a fade away three in a game. He’s never going to be shooting dribble up the court transition threes either. He’s strictly a catch and shoot guy. These drills are wasted on a guy like Sochan. It’s like teaching Danny Green the Steph Curry two basketball dribbling techniques. There’s no point in it.

But I’m not shooting coach. And I’ll find out if I’m right or not at years end.

[LeBowen]

Am I the only one bothered by these work out videos? At first glance you see it and you think man Sochan is putting in the work! And then you think about it and you’re like this is a pretty useless workout. Sochan is never going to shoot a fade away three in a game. He’s never going to be shooting dribble up the court transition threes either. He’s strictly a catch and shoot guy. These drills are wasted on a guy like Sochan. It’s like teaching Danny Green the Steph Curry two basketball dribbling techniques. There’s no point in it.

But I’m not shooting coach. And I’ll find out if I’m right or not at years end.

Maybe he'll need these moves in Eurobasket, I presume he's the guy on Polish national team?

But as far as the Spurs go, I agree.
What's the point of doing movement and off the dribble shooting drills before perfecting his catch and shoot motion?
I guess he's working on that too, but it's not flashy enough for a short video.

[scott]

Am I the only one bothered by these work out videos? At first glance you see it and you think man Sochan is putting in the work! And then you think about it and you’re like this is a pretty useless workout. Sochan is never going to shoot a fade away three in a game. He’s never going to be shooting dribble up the court transition threes either. He’s strictly a catch and shoot guy. These drills are wasted on a guy like Sochan. It’s like teaching Danny Green the Steph Curry two basketball dribbling techniques. There’s no point in it.

But I’m not shooting coach. And I’ll find out if I’m right or not at years end.

Well not with that attitude! :P

[RC_Drunkford]

Am I the only one bothered by these work out videos? At first glance you see it and you think man Sochan is putting in the work! And then you think about it and you’re like this is a pretty useless workout. Sochan is never going to shoot a fade away three in a game. He’s never going to be shooting dribble up the court transition threes either. He’s strictly a catch and shoot guy. These drills are wasted on a guy like Sochan. It’s like teaching Danny Green the Steph Curry two basketball dribbling techniques. There’s no point in it.

But I’m not shooting coach. And I’ll find out if I’m right or not at years end.

true, but if he makes his catch & shoot shots in the workout (which is what it looks like on these shorts videos), you might as well let him work on movement drills. At the end of the day that will make simple catch & shoots feel like a cakewalk at some point.

[LeBowen]

true, but if he makes his catch & shoot shots in the workout (which is what it looks like on these shorts videos), you might as well let him work on movement drills. At the end of the day that will make simple catch & shoots feel like a cakewalk at some point.

Maybe those movement drills are helping him with fluidity.
Remember when Wemby said how he feels more comfortable shooting off the dribble beacuse his arms are too long and make catch and shoot attempts awnkward.

[Ice009]

I don't remember Victor saying. So he said he definitely prefers off the dribble. Interesting. Couldn't this be a bit of an issue as we have lots of ball handling guards. Are they going to around while he's dribbling around looking for his shot? I figured he would need to become a better catch and shoot player.

[Ni-G]

Jeremy is training for national team,���� and he may be first scoring option there (I know shocking ��) if his of the dribble shot sticks even better. His job isn't to be a chucker like Devin but keeping defenders honest while being able to punish drop down coverage would be great.

[RC_Drunkford]

Maybe those movement drills are helping him with fluidity.
Remember when Wemby said how he feels more comfortable shooting off the dribble beacuse his arms are too long and make catch and shoot attempts awnkward.

shooting off the bounce is a lot harder, because you need to find the right way to pick up the ball out of your dribble and align your body to the rim before you get the shot off. So it helps with accuracy in general, besides handles which has also been an emphasis for Jeremy.

[Dejounte]

Yep, the first sign we’ll know if these workout videos are for real is if he blows up and dominates in Eurobasket.

[Pauleta14]

You don't get better at basketball by training in a gym without real opposition, smh

ST in full copping mode :lmao

At best you get a good conditioning. Period

Zero trust in this dude. Again still waiting to be wrong since day 1

[John B]

That’s what mobile stretch bigs do. He’s been auditioning for that position ever since. As a Spurs fan, I can only root for him. Because if he did become successful, it would make Spurs running game tough to defend, all 5 positions able to push the ball in transition, especially Sochan with his rim running. If you do it a thousand times in the gym, even without opposition, your muscle memory starts remembering, and hopefully it starts translating in the actual game. And yes, the EuroLeague would be a great test.

[Raven]

Yep, the first sign we’ll know if these workout videos are for real is if he blows up and dominates in Eurobasket.

nah, that's stupid. It wouldn't matter either way if he does or doesn't, the competition is just too different.

[picnroll]

nah, that's stupid. It wouldn't matter either way if he does or doesn't, the competition is just too different.
In the Euros qualifiers last year he took one three pointer, that’s one in the whole competition, so I’d say you’re completely wrong. Any increase in volume and percentage is going to be a strong indicator.

[Mnky]

Any variation of shooting improves the shooters ability or center and maintain balance through the follow through. Once the form is down, movement shots are very important for developing a good catch and shoot shot.


Why is it the loudest voices out there know so very little about elementary basketball concepts? He's working on getting better. He has consistently been better as an overall player every year while playing through tons of different lineups.

He's working on the thing people whine about the most and they still show up to whine saying it doesn't mean anything.


I guess Wemby should never enter a gym in the off season. It's just pointless, he's not getting better by practicing. Keep playing soccer Wet bananas.

[Ariel]

You don't get better at basketball by training in a gym without real opposition, smh

ST in full copping mode :lmao

At best you get a good conditioning. Period

Zero trust in this dude. Again still waiting to be wrong since day 1
Where do you expect him to get his reps? taking 100 3s a game? I'm in wait and see mode as cherry picked clips mean very little, but this seems like just hating for no good reason.

[exstatic]

You don't get better at basketball by training in a gym without real opposition, smh

ST in full copping mode :lmao

At best you get a good conditioning. Period

Zero trust in this dude. Again still waiting to be wrong since day 1

No you’re not, because if he comes through, you’ll find some other shit to spin or bitch about.

[ambchang]

You don't get better at basketball by training in a gym without real opposition, smh

ST in full copping mode :lmao

At best you get a good conditioning. Period

Zero trust in this dude. Again still waiting to be wrong since day 1

Yeah, guys should just relax during summer. There’s no way to improve.

[ambchang]

As I mentioned in another thread, I would argue wemby would benefit with not just stand still catch and shoot three point shooters, but players who can catch and shoot in motion. Sochan doesn’t necessarily have to be a pull up shooter or create his own offence (actually, please don’t) but if he can shoot threes in motion that would add so much to the spurs.

[scott]

“Practice doesn’t help” is quite the take

[KobesAchilles]

Any variation of shooting improves the shooters ability or center and maintain balance through the follow through. Once the form is down, movement shots are very important for developing a good catch and shoot shot.


Why is it the loudest voices out there know so very little about elementary basketball concepts? He's working on getting better. He has consistently been better as an overall player every year while playing through tons of different lineups.

He's working on the thing people whine about the most and they still show up to whine saying it doesn't mean anything.


I guess Wemby should never enter a gym in the off season. It's just pointless, he's not getting better by practicing. Keep playing soccer Wet bananas.

Yeah no. Sochan isn’t ready to be shooting fade aways and pull up three pointers. If we take your elementary basketball analogy like you say then why would Sochan even be taking these shots? He hasn’t mastered his set shot at all. You don’t teach a kid a fade away before he masters his regular shot. You don’t teach pull up threes if he can’t even consistently make set shots. Eventually he can be shooting these types of shots (well maybe lol) but he isn’t there yet.

Shooting fundamentals isn’t as hard as these gurus think it is once you get the form down. It’s just boring. You start close to the rim and shoot 100. You take a step back and shoot another 100. You do this at different angles towards the basket. But anytime I see nonshooters posting their 3 point shots I’m just thinking to myself man you’re focusing on the wrong thing. After Sochan actually masters the damn fundamentals then he can start doing pull ups and fade aways and step backs.

[rankingtear]

spurms should hire our armchair shooting coaches tbh.

[Raven]

In the Euros qualifiers last year he took one three pointer, that’s one in the whole competition, so I’d say you’re completely wrong. Any increase in volume and percentage is going to be a strong indicator.

i saw those euros. there was a very good reason for him not taking triples, the team didn't need him to and he was dominant in transition or just being a fast big.

[Pauleta14]

No you’re not, because if he comes through, you’ll find some other shit to spin or bitch about.

You mean if he's good? That doesn't make much sense :lol

I'm afraid the main issue with Sochan is located between his ears

[Pauleta14]

Where do you expect him to get his reps? taking 100 3s a game? I'm in wait and see mode as cherry picked clips mean very little, but this seems like just hating for no good reason.

First I don't care nor need to see videos of his summer hustle, it's IG level of pointlessness

Secondly, gym training is about technique and conditioning, not game situations despite all the exercises you can imagine. You raise your BBIQ and true bb level with real oppositions, and I hope there are some scheduled in his summer regimen.

His NT won't teach us much bc of his role (surrounded by shooters he won't be expected to show off his 3) and the particularity of international bb, far from the NBA style and needs

[Pauleta14]

Yeah, guys should just relax during summer. There’s no way to improve.

Again showing you don't like wasting time thinking before you post :lol

[Pauleta14]

“Practice doesn’t help” is quite the take

Not what I said

[Spurs Homer]

Am I the only one bothered by these work out videos? At first glance you see it and you think man Sochan is putting in the work! And then you think about it and you’re like this is a pretty useless workout. Sochan is never going to shoot a fade away three in a game. He’s never going to be shooting dribble up the court transition threes either. He’s strictly a catch and shoot guy. These drills are wasted on a guy like Sochan. It’s like teaching Danny Green the Steph Curry two basketball dribbling techniques. There’s no point in it.

But I’m not shooting coach. And I’ll find out if I’m right or not at years end.

yeah man!

spurs players should spend their time at whataburger and stop working out on basketball courts!

it really bothers me too!

fuckin moron

[tonight...you]

So apparently practicing in the gym with professional trainers is a giant zero burger.
What should he be doing in the summer then?

[Mnky]

Yeah no. Sochan isn’t ready to be shooting fade aways and pull up three pointers. If we take your elementary basketball analogy like you say then why would Sochan even be taking these shots? He hasn’t mastered his set shot at all. You don’t teach a kid a fade away before he masters his regular shot. You don’t teach pull up threes if he can’t even consistently make set shots. Eventually he can be shooting these types of shots (well maybe lol) but he isn’t there yet.

Shooting fundamentals isn’t as hard as these gurus think it is once you get the form down. It’s just boring. You start close to the rim and shoot 100. You take a step back and shoot another 100. You do this at different angles towards the basket. But anytime I see nonshooters posting their 3 point shots I’m just thinking to myself man you’re focusing on the wrong thing. After Sochan actually masters the damn fundamentals then he can start doing pull ups and fade aways and step backs.

Source: Trust me bro

I'll go with decades worth of applicable experience on this one. What your suggesting is likely a small portion of his warm up. Creating balance and a centered form is essential to being a good shooter. There's nothing wrong at all with him expanding past shoot straight a hundred times.

Without a doubt you should learn the fundamentals for the form you want. The top 10 shooters in the league all have their own version of form. He's clearly found the shot he wants and is now working on consistency and rhythm. Basic fundamental approach to shooting.

[KobesAchilles]

Source: Trust me bro

I'll go with decades worth of applicable experience on this one. What you’re suggesting is likely a small portion of his warm up. Creating balance and a centered form is essential to being a good shooter. There's nothing wrong at all with him expanding past shoot straight a hundred times,

Without a doubt you should learn the fundamentals for the form you want. The top 10 shooters in the league all have their own version of form. He's clearly found the shot he wants and is now working on consistency and rhythm. Basic fundamental approach to shooting.
I mean I didn’t invent this stuff man. Many great shooters talk about doing what I say. Reggie Miller, Steve Smith, Chris Mullins, Larry Bird, Dennis Scott. They all mention about how they focused on their midrange to help build to their 3 point shot instead of just shooting a bunch of threes all the time. And I didn’t say right shoot straight at the rim. I clearly said at different angles. Also he clearly doesn’t practice these shots. Since you don’t trust me as a source do your own research and come back to me with his shooting percentage on shots 10-16 feet from the basket. Post his shooting percentage and then tell me with a straight face he has mastered these shots.

You keep saying basic fundamentals without actually adhering to what you’re saying. Fade away 3s that’s just basic fundamentals guys. Pull up jumpers. Just basic fundamentals guys. Those aren’t basic at all and they aren’t even fucking fundamentals. Like you can shit on me all you want but the fact is that Sochan isn’t ready for this shit. Because he doesn’t have his actual basic fundamentals down.

[KobesAchilles]

yeah man!

spurs players should spend their time at whataburger and stop working out on basketball courts!

it really bothers me too!

fuckin moron
Wow there’s a lot of anger here for no reason. I’m not saying that Sochan shouldn’t be working out or in a gym. I’m saying that he should be working on what he is actually going to be doing in game. He isn’t ready for these work outs. If a guys shot is so bad that he is literally scared to shoot the ball then you don’t just make him shoot fade away 3s and pull up jumpers over the offseason. He isn’t going to be taking those shots. He needs thousands of shots of literally 12 feet out. Left side, middle, right side. Then 14 feet and etc etc. There’s no skipping steps in shooting.

Look at a guy like Kawhi. They completely restructured his shot. We all know this. But did they have him focus on 3 point shooting? No they didn’t. They had him focus on midrange. And then he expanded out to the 3 point line and guess what he became a deadly shooter. If you’re going to train a guy then do it right. Dude shot 28% from 15-19 feet out. 35% from 10-14 feet. But sure their way is totally working and I’m wrong along with some of the greatest shooters who have ever lived.

[Mnky]

I mean I didn’t invent this stuff man. Many great shooters talk about doing what I say. Reggie Miller, Steve Smith, Chris Mullins, Larry Bird, Dennis Scott. They all mention about how they focused on their midrange to help build to their 3 point shot instead of just shooting a bunch of threes all the time. And I didn’t say right shoot straight at the rim. I clearly said at different angles. Also he clearly doesn’t practice these shots. Since you don’t trust me as a source do your own research and come back to me with his shooting percentage on shots 10-16 feet from the basket. Post his shooting percentage and then tell me with a straight face he has mastered these shots.

You keep saying basic fundamentals without actually adhering to what you’re saying. Fade away 3s that’s just basic fundamentals guys. Pull up jumpers. Just basic fundamentals guys. Those aren’t basic at all and they aren’t even fucking fundamentals. Like you can shit on me all you want but the fact is that Sochan isn’t ready for this shit. Because he doesn’t have his actual basic fundamentals down.


What are you talking about? What you said is without a doubt part of what he's doing. Even Castle was doing that in his warm-ups before he went into his drills with the Whisperer. That's basic warm up stuff and you're saying sochan should be doing it. Bro, everyone does it for everything. Your advice was to do what everyone does in shoot around every day.

Every shot is a straight shot to the rim. The rim is round. Once again, people who actually play and coach understand these concepts. Whether you're on the left or the right, you're shooting straight forward. The most common issue for bad shooting, is a lack of balance and a lack of centering yourself before letting the shot go. That's literally what the majority of castle's footage is. They have him do a bunch of hopping and jumping sideways and all around before shooting because it helps establish grounding yourself in a real game setting. That is basic fundamentals to shooting. Creating sports specific exercises to tune your shot is the core part of any jump shooters program. Basic stuff that volunteer little league coaches are running.

No one claimed he mastered a shot? What in the world are you talking about? Steph curry hasn't mastered a shot. It's why he practices his shot so much. Kevin Durant hasn't mastered his shot, its why he practices his shot so much. If the goal was mastering a shot bro, you already lost reality. The goal is improving. Dudes shot clearly improved. Take a video of his 2 hitch drop shot and the one he has this summer and there's a day and night difference. I'm not crapping on you. I'm just pointing out the silliness of hating on a dude for clearly improving.

[SpursBills]

What are you talking about? What you said is without a doubt part of what he's doing. Even Castle was doing that in his warm-ups before he went into his drills with the Whisperer. That's basic warm up stuff and you're saying sochan should be doing it. Bro, everyone does it for everything. Your advice was to do what everyone does in shoot around every day.

Every shot is a straight shot to the rim. The rim is round. Once again, people who actually play and coach understand these concepts. Whether you're on the left or the right, you're shooting straight forward. The most common issue for bad shooting, is a lack of balance and a lack of centering yourself before letting the shot go. That's literally what the majority of castle's footage is. They have him do a bunch of hopping and jumping sideways and all around before shooting because it helps establish grounding yourself in a real game setting. That is basic fundamentals to shooting. Creating sports specific exercises to tune your shot is the core part of any jump shooters program. Basic stuff that volunteer little league coaches are running.

No one claimed he mastered a shot? What in the world are you talking about? Steph curry hasn't mastered a shot. It's why he practices his shot so much. Kevin Durant hasn't mastered his shot, its why he practices his shot so much. If the goal was mastering a shot bro, you already lost reality. The goal is improving. Dudes shot clearly improved. Take a video of his 2 hitch drop shot and the one he has this summer and there's a day and night difference. I'm not crapping on you. I'm just pointing out the silliness of hating on a dude for clearly improving.

Your posts suggest that you've either done some coaching or worked with shooters before, or at minimum know what you're talking about when it comes to shooting.

I myself don't know shit about shooting progression, so I was wondering if you could comment on his form from his pre-draft workout (linked below) versus now. It seems like his shot was deconstructed with the hitch built in and now he's getting rid of the hitch. To my completely untrained eye, his shot doesn't look that different now compared to pre-draft, but maybe you could shed some light on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sarzUqkqT4c

[picnroll]

Just like at the putting green, never practice your 10 ft putt until you’ve mastered your 5.ft putt /s

[KobesAchilles]

What are you talking about? What you said is without a doubt part of what he's doing. Even Castle was doing that in his warm-ups before he went into his drills with the Whisperer. That's basic warm up stuff and you're saying sochan should be doing it. Bro, everyone does it for everything. Your advice was to do what everyone does in shoot around every day.

Every shot is a straight shot to the rim. The rim is round. Once again, people who actually play and coach understand these concepts. Whether you're on the left or the right, you're shooting straight forward. The most common issue for bad shooting, is a lack of balance and a lack of centering yourself before letting the shot go. That's literally what the majority of castle's footage is. They have him do a bunch of hopping and jumping sideways and all around before shooting because it helps establish grounding yourself in a real game setting. That is basic fundamentals to shooting. Creating sports specific exercises to tune your shot is the core part of any jump shooters program. Basic stuff that volunteer little league coaches are running.

No one claimed he mastered a shot? What in the world are you talking about? Steph curry hasn't mastered a shot. It's why he practices his shot so much. Kevin Durant hasn't mastered his shot, it’s why he practices his shot so much. If the goal was mastering a shot bro, you already lost reality. The goal is improving. Dudes shot clearly improved. Take a video of his 2 hitch drop shot and the one he has this summer and there's a day and night difference. I'm not crapping on you. I'm just pointing out the silliness of hating on a dude for clearly improving.
My point, since you don’t understand is that it shouldn’t be his warm up. It should be basically his whole shoot around. He hasn’t improved you twat. He shot 28% from 14-19 feet. How is that improvement? How is that good? All of these work outs and he shot 28%. He shot 35% from 10-16 feet. Where the fuck is the improvement? I am shitting on you. Maybe to your low ass standards that is improvement bc his form fucking changed but who gives a shit if his form fucking changed if he doesn’t actually make the fucking shot in game. You’re asking what is talking about well what the fuck are you talking about? He improved guys. All I’ve heard for 3 years now is how much his shot has improved. Every fucking offseason it’s the same shit. Guys look at his form. It’s improved. He shoots 28% but it’s an improved shot. Well maybe he will shoot 30% this year from 10-16 feet with his improved shot.

Steph Curry has made in shoot around 96 out of 100 3s. I would say that he has mastered his set shot pretty fucking well. Klay Thompson has made 95 out of 100. KD makes consistently upper 80s out of 100 in three point shots. Fuck you go tell KD he hasn’t mastered his shot and see what insult he will give you. I’m not the one out of reality. You’re just the part of Spurstalk who watches a fucking 30 second video and takes it as gospel that it’s improving bc his form changed.

I am willing to bet 100 bucks to you that Sochan shoots under 35% from 3 with this new form (which is under league average btw) shoots less than 40% from 10-14 feet and 35% 15-19. All of which is below league average shooting percentage.

And if volunteer little league coaches are teaching this then why didn’t they teach it to Sochan? The way you talk everyone at a young age is a fucking master at shooting. They teach a lot of shit now that doesn’t work to kids nowadays that’s just a waste of time. Everyone thinks they reinvented the wheel with basketball. They didn’t.

If Sochan still sucks at shooting this year then please refrain from ever talking about his form and his work outs again. And if he improves to league average (I’m not even saying above average) then I will pay you 100 bucks and bow down to your wisdom

[RC_Drunkford]

I mean I didn’t invent this stuff man. Many great shooters talk about doing what I say. Reggie Miller, Steve Smith, Chris Mullins, Larry Bird, Dennis Scott. They all mention about how they focused on their midrange to help build to their 3 point shot instead of just shooting a bunch of threes all the time. And I didn’t say right shoot straight at the rim. I clearly said at different angles. Also he clearly doesn’t practice these shots. Since you don’t trust me as a source do your own research and come back to me with his shooting percentage on shots 10-16 feet from the basket. Post his shooting percentage and then tell me with a straight face he has mastered these shots.

You keep saying basic fundamentals without actually adhering to what you’re saying. Fade away 3s that’s just basic fundamentals guys. Pull up jumpers. Just basic fundamentals guys. Those aren’t basic at all and they aren’t even fucking fundamentals. Like you can shit on me all you want but the fact is that Sochan isn’t ready for this shit. Because he doesn’t have his actual basic fundamentals down.

to be fair, he does. Plenty of videos of him shooting midranges in those workout videos. And what you are alluding to is what he works on pregame everytime.

[Mnky]

My point, since you don’t understand is that it shouldn’t be his warm up. It should be basically his whole shoot around. He hasn’t improved you twat. He shot 28% from 14-19 feet. How is that improvement? How is that good? All of these work outs and he shot 28%. He shot 35% from 10-16 feet. Where the fuck is the improvement? I am shitting on you. Maybe to your low ass standards that is improvement bc his form fucking changed but who gives a shit if his form fucking changed if he doesn’t actually make the fucking shot in game. You’re asking what is talking about well what the fuck are you talking about? He improved guys. All I’ve heard for 3 years now is how much his shot has improved. Every fucking offseason it’s the same shit. Guys look at his form. It’s improved. He shoots 28% but it’s an improved shot. Well maybe he will shoot 30% this year from 10-16 feet with his improved shot.

Steph Curry has made in shoot around 96 out of 100 3s. I would say that he has mastered his set shot pretty fucking well. Klay Thompson has made 95 out of 100. KD makes consistently upper 80s out of 100 in three point shots. Fuck you go tell KD he hasn’t mastered his shot and see what insult he will give you. I’m not the one out of reality. You’re just the part of Spurstalk who watches a fucking 30 second video and takes it as gospel that it’s improving bc his form changed.

I am willing to bet 100 bucks to you that Sochan shoots under 35% from 3 with this new form (which is under league average btw) shoots less than 40% from 10-14 feet and 35% 15-19. All of which is below league average shooting percentage.

And if volunteer little league coaches are teaching this then why didn’t they teach it to Sochan? The way you talk everyone at a young age is a fucking master at shooting. They teach a lot of shit now that doesn’t work to kids nowadays that’s just a waste of time. Everyone thinks they reinvented the wheel with basketball. They didn’t.

If Sochan still sucks at shooting this year then please refrain from ever talking about his form and his work outs again. And if he improves to league average (I’m not even saying above average) then I will pay you 100 bucks and bow down to your wisdom

He has visibly improved his form by anyone with eyes to see. That is not arguable. You're just hanging on to strings bro. Have a good day.

[rankingtear]

he still has a hitch on set shots and when moving to the left, moving to the right is less prominent. probably won't shoot it like a wing but if they can run some pick and pop where he has some time to move or relocate a little to the right could be a huge upgrade on how he can survive on offense. since we have two lefty downhill lead guards it kinda works.

[rascal]

My point, since you don’t understand is that it shouldn’t be his warm up. It should be basically his whole shoot around. He hasn’t improved you twat. He shot 28% from 14-19 feet. How is that improvement? How is that good? All of these work outs and he shot 28%. He shot 35% from 10-16 feet. Where the fuck is the improvement? I am shitting on you. Maybe to your low ass standards that is improvement bc his form fucking changed but who gives a shit if his form fucking changed if he doesn’t actually make the fucking shot in game. You’re asking what is talking about well what the fuck are you talking about? He improved guys. All I’ve heard for 3 years now is how much his shot has improved. Every fucking offseason it’s the same shit. Guys look at his form. It’s improved. He shoots 28% but it’s an improved shot. Well maybe he will shoot 30% this year from 10-16 feet with his improved shot.

Steph Curry has made in shoot around 96 out of 100 3s. I would say that he has mastered his set shot pretty fucking well. Klay Thompson has made 95 out of 100. KD makes consistently upper 80s out of 100 in three point shots. Fuck you go tell KD he hasn’t mastered his shot and see what insult he will give you. I’m not the one out of reality. You’re just the part of Spurstalk who watches a fucking 30 second video and takes it as gospel that it’s improving bc his form changed.

I am willing to bet 100 bucks to you that Sochan shoots under 35% from 3 with this new form (which is under league average btw) shoots less than 40% from 10-14 feet and 35% 15-19. All of which is below league average shooting percentage.

And if volunteer little league coaches are teaching this then why didn’t they teach it to Sochan? The way you talk everyone at a young age is a fucking master at shooting. They teach a lot of shit now that doesn’t work to kids nowadays that’s just a waste of time. Everyone thinks they reinvented the wheel with basketball. They didn’t.

If Sochan still sucks at shooting this year then please refrain from ever talking about his form and his work outs again. And if he improves to league average (I’m not even saying above average) then I will pay you 100 bucks and bow down to your wisdom

You don't think Sochan can hit four more shots than he did over 91 attempts next year? That's all it would take to get to .351. He shot 28 for 91 for .308, only four more makes would get him to 32/91 for .351.

He needs to shoot better on a higher volume and good enough to draw defenders out to guard him or else he's still not good.

[LeBowen]

He has visibly improved his form by anyone with eyes to see. That is not arguable. You're just hanging on to strings bro. Have a good day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sarzUqkqT4c&t=50s

0:50 timestamp.

That was three years ago.
We obviously can't say that Jeremy isn't trying to improve, but I'll curb my expectations since he's shown no actual in-game improvement for three years. Until he at least starts taking shots he needs to within the flow of the offense, he's a non-shooter for all intents and purposes.
Can he change that? Obviously, we've seen it happen with a lot of players. But these social media videos aren't worth shit until he proves it in game. Eurobasket will be a good test for him.

[Mnky]

Your posts suggest that you've either done some coaching or worked with shooters before, or at minimum know what you're talking about when it comes to shooting.

I myself don't know shit about shooting progression, so I was wondering if you could comment on his form from his pre-draft workout (linked below) versus now. It seems like his shot was deconstructed with the hitch built in and now he's getting rid of the hitch. To my completely untrained eye, his shot doesn't look that different now compared to pre-draft, but maybe you could shed some light on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sarzUqkqT4c


Sochans biggest issues were his consistency with using his left hand to push and his inability to keep his right elbow in and aligned. His center was never the same. His follow through from step to release was mismanaged and would veer out quite a bit. This is a common issue with shooters who learn to shoot early which is surprising because people always say he was raised playing ball but he wasnt. His family played ball and coached him but he didn't actually start real ball early. There was an interview where Dylan Harper said his mom didn't allow him to take a shot until middle school. He could only drive to score and he would get in trouble if he did take a shot, which is explains why he's so craft getting down hill and scoring and isn't as refined as a shooter. This is more and more common as people realize how many bad mechanics kids develop young. They aren't strong enough and lean on their left hand, or pushing the elbow out to put more push in the chest than the tricep etc. Common body mechanics that can override what the shooter wants to do. Sochan had those issues.

Free throws are an easier place to evalute those types of things. I"m sure this is why they focused on the one handed balancing routine to realign his mechanics. He was a capable shooter but his shooting percentages were always up and down. Has a lot to do with not having consistent centered shooting mechanics. Consequences of bad follow through and consistence form is what plagued sochan and it was evident in the percentages.

As much as people hate the hitch so much, it's like you said, you rebuild the form in steps to get a structured and consistent follow through. People always critique shooting coaches creating a hitch in shooters. It happens all the time, they just notice it when its a popular name or someone they're invested in. I'll once again refer to the stephon castle training videos where he is coached to stop with the ball in his shooting form, practicing a hitch as people would call it, and then release. This is a long term adjustment they made with Sochan which is why I always doubt any rumors of trades etc with Sochan unless it's a really big one. They're not letting him go for a rental unless he wants way too much money or just doesnt want to be in san antonio. They've invested long term programs with him. Whether it works out or not is to be seen but he is definitely developing on track, albeit not at the pace fans would want I suppose. He was too busy learning how to be one of the best iso defenders in the league, darn him.

[Mnky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sarzUqkqT4c&t=50s

0:50 timestamp.

That was three years ago.
We obviously can't say that Jeremy isn't trying to improve, but I'll curb my expectations since he's shown no actual in-game improvement for three years. Until he at least starts taking shots he needs to within the flow of the offense, he's a non-shooter for all intents and purposes.
Can he change that? Obviously, we've seen it happen with a lot of players. But these social media videos aren't worth shit until he proves it in game. Eurobasket will be a good test for him.


The argument has never been that he doesn't need to improve or shoot more. People are literally coming on here and saying he hasn't gotten better. Everyone knows free throw percentage is as good an indicator as you can get for a good shot. His free throw percentage has improved. Drastically. That alone proves he has gotten better outside of the obvious visual cues. In that video, you can see his elbow go out quite a bite. You see it in his high dribble too. It was just a mechanic he did a lot. That's improved. You see it less. That's better, for all intents and purposes. Has he become the perfect player people want him to be? No. I dont think he will be perfect either, call me crazy. His low volume is directly relegated to the lineups and roles he had as well. He played a lot of center. He played next to wemby and vassell and johnson. These guys are chuckers and he's often tasked with being the cleanup guy. People whine and complain about Wemby not being about to play freely because of the lack of big help, well that affected sochan as well he just wasn't the priority wemby was with getting shots. People can want him to be a high volume shooter all they want, but if that's not his role, its not his role. He would pass up shots, absolutely. He should in most cases. Like other players in the league, he would also pass up shots he should take. It happens. As originally said, he needs to improve there. No ones arguing he should take less shots.

His role was the screen and dive guy to clean up the glass, which he became MUCH better at last year. My biggest issue has always been he was not a good rebounder. This is without a doubt the biggest thing that would keep him from being a player in the spurs system. He has to be able to rebound and he honestly was pretty poor the first couple years. He did way better with that last year in actual games, not the garbage time most of the spurs season is.

People enjoying seeing players work on the part of the game that is criticized is not a bad thing. There's just a ton of negative nancys who come on here to whine and complain about everything and anything. That's clearly more of a personal issue and has very little to do with the actual games.

Sochan is a good young player who is becoming better.

[LeBowen]

His free throw percentage has improved. Drastically. That alone proves he has gotten better outside of the obvious visual cues.

It improved instantly after he started doing one handed routine and it's been at around the same level ever since. He actually went from 77% in 23-24 to 70% in 24-25 season.


He would pass up shots, absolutely. He should in most cases.

He shouldn't when the other team is actively daring him to shoot and we're effectively playing 4v5 if he's standing on the perimeter.
There were quite a few late shot clock situations where he had mental collapses and didn't know what to do because he got the ball uncontested at 3pt line.
That can happen. You can be a terrible shooter, but you can't look lost when you get the ball. Either attempt that low percentage shot in rythm or have a solution in mind as the ball is flying towards you.


Sochan is a good young player who is becoming better.

I said it myself a couple of times that he'd be a good rotation piece for some teams, but the issue is that he's becoming less and less suited for this roster because we keep adding guards who prefer to attack the paint and need shooters around them.
And that's fine, role players usually have specific skillset and have to complement stars of the team. If Jeremy doesn't manage to do so in this upcoming season we move on. That doesn't mean he can't be useful elsewhere.

[Knoxxx]

I think we should pack all ten men in the paint and have Wemby tip rebounds to himself.

[Light]

Video of Sochan hesitating to shoot threes last season


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7yoI5Z2CH8

[Mnky]

It improved instantly after he started doing one handed routine and it's been at around the same level ever since. He actually went from 77% in 23-24 to 70% in 24-25 season.



He shouldn't when the other team is actively daring him to shoot and we're effectively playing 4v5 if he's standing on the perimeter.
There were quite a few late shot clock situations where he had mental collapses and didn't know what to do because he got the ball uncontested at 3pt line.
That can happen. You can be a terrible shooter, but you can't look lost when you get the ball. Either attempt that low percentage shot in rythm or have a solution in mind as the ball is flying towards you.



I said it myself a couple of times that he'd be a good rotation piece for some teams, but the issue is that he's becoming less and less suited for this roster because we keep adding guards who prefer to attack the paint and need shooters around them.
And that's fine, role players usually have specific skillset and have to complement stars of the team. If Jeremy doesn't manage to do so in this upcoming season we move on. That doesn't mean he can't be useful elsewhere.

He improved. Agreed.

Chet holmgreen just finished the finals with averages of 11 pts, 9 reb on 35% fg percentage and 11% 3pt. percentage.
People obsessed over 3 pt percentage for role players when it doesn't matter if they're not volume shooters. Your stars are going to take the shots. Can you make my stars life easier? If you can, you're valuable.

Chet shot 11%. I'll say it again.

The thunders starting lineup shot 33% from 3 in the finals. Team as a whole shot 37%.

People really over play the 3 percentage these days. If Sochan gets anywhere near league average, he's an above average player in the league and likely too expensive to play with Wemby. I'm glad he's taking his time to develop so we can afford a second contract.

[Mnky]

Video of Sochan hesitating to shoot threes last season


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7yoI5Z2CH8

:lol

[LeBowen]

He improved. Agreed.

Don't try to gimmick me if we're having a normal conversation.



Chet holmgreen just finished the finals with averages of 11 pts, 9 reb on 35% fg percentage and 11% 3pt. percentage.
People obsessed over 3 pt percentage for role players when it doesn't matter if they're not volume shooters. Your stars are going to take the shots. Can you make my stars life easier? If you can, you're valuable.

Chet shot 11%. I'll say it again.

The thunders starting lineup shot 33% from 3 in the finals. Team as a whole shot 37%.

People really over play the 3 percentage these days. If Sochan gets anywhere near league average, he's an above average player in the league and likely too expensive to play with Wemby. I'm glad he's taking his time to develop so we can afford a second contract.


Difference being that every Thunder shooter was respected and noone was dared to shoot all series long.
Which was my entire point.
I'd rather have Jeremy shoot 11% within the flow of the offense than have mental collapses every time he's supposed to take a 3pt shot.

[Mnky]

Don't try to gimmick me if we're having a normal conversation.



Difference being that every Thunder shooter was respected and noone was dared to shoot all series long.
Which was my entire point.
I'd rather have Jeremy shoot 11% within the flow of the offense than have mental collapses every time he's supposed to take a 3pt shot.

That isn't a gimmick. It's recognizing that he has improved statistically and it's wild people still attempt to say he hasn't. He has. That's all there is to it. Hasn't improved to someone's liking? He's the fourth or fifth option in his lineup. I'm fine with where he is if he can do the dirty work.

Playoff basketball is different. Noone slacks on the defensive end. Chet was definitely dared to shoot. Williams had his good games because of how much they dared him. The pacers plan was to keep the ball out of the foul baiters hand. They wanted everyone else to beat them.

Take a look at the video light posted. He's clearly not looking off every shot like people are claiming. He without a doubt passed up shots, I don't think it was notably more or less than anyone else. Peoples bias push them to see what they want to see. He instinctivly looks for the next pass. That's a great attribute to have for a role player next to a couple of high volume players.

His fit is good with Wemby and Fox. It would be amazing if he had an average 3 pt shot. Can't expect players to be perfect man. Got to get past that. He's not the best fit but still a good fit.

[LeBowen]

That isn't a gimmick. It's recognizing that he has improved statistically and it's wild people still attempt to say he hasn't. He has. That's all there is to it.

He made an instant improvement after the switch to one handed shot early in his rookie year and has made no improvements since. Better?


Hasn't improved to someone's liking? He's the fourth or fifth option in his lineup. I'm fine with where he is if he can do the dirty work.

I'm also fine if it works, I don't really care which brand of basketball Spurs play as long as it's successful and consistent.
The thing is that playing him and Castle together didn't work so far and there's no reason for us to believe that will change until shooting improvements happen.
Either Castle develops from a bad shooter to a solid one or Jeremy develops from a non-shooter to a bad shooter.


Playoff basketball is different. Noone slacks on the defensive end. Chet was definitely dared to shoot. Williams had his good games because of how much they dared him. The pacers plan was to keep the ball out of the foul baiters hand. They wanted everyone else to beat them.

You have sag off someone when the defense collapses, but Chet wasn't dared in the "we won't bother contesting even if you hesitate to shoot" way.


Take a look at the video light posted. He's clearly not looking off every shot like people are claiming. He without a doubt passed up shots, I don't think it was notably more or less than anyone else. Peoples bias push them to see what they want to see. He instinctivly looks for the next pass. That's a great attribute to have for a role player next to a couple of high volume players.

When I say passes up shots, I refer to the situations when noone bothers to contest him and the flow of the offense breaks. I'm not referring to him looking for the next pass situations that keep the offense going.


His fit is good with Wemby and Fox. It would be amazing if he had an average 3 pt shot. Can't expect players to be perfect man. Got to get past that. He's not the best fit but still a good fit.

If we're going to have two of Fox/Castle/Harper on the floor at all times we need shooters on the wings. Yes, we could theoretically do without them, but having shooters would be more optimal.
Sochan in his curent iteration also can't play with Kornet.

I always said he got the short end of the stick with those PG and C experiments, but that's how it goes if you're fundamentally flawed.
If we exclude bigs, there wasn't a single non-shooting guard or wing on relevant playoff teams this year. Everyone who played was a better shooter than Jeremy.

If we're actually talking about making him effective even if he doesn't improve as a shooter, his post game has to be better. He'll find himself matched up with bad defenders a lot of the time because he's the lowest priority threat on our team and we can't have no more of those back to the basket dribbles into the paint without even thinking about the next step. He needs to take care of mismatches with confidence.

I agree that if he becomes a solid shooter he'd be a great fit, but like this he's always going to be the weak link.

[scott]

You don't think Sochan can hit four more shots than he did over 91 attempts next year? That's all it would take to get to .351. He shot 28 for 91 for .308, only four more makes would get him to 32/91 for .351.

He needs to shoot better on a higher volume and good enough to draw defenders out to guard him or else he's still not good.

That's the key, it's not just about % - it's volume and %, as you rightfully point out. Right now Jeremy isn't just a bad shooter, he's a non-shooter, and that needs to change. I'll even take 32% on 4+ attempts/game.

The Spurs are significant better if Sochan improves, so that's what I'm hoping for as opposed to others who seem to be rooting for him to fail so they can win SpursTalk points.

[scott]

He improved. Agreed.

Chet holmgreen just finished the finals with averages of 11 pts, 9 reb on 35% fg percentage and 11% 3pt. percentage.
People obsessed over 3 pt percentage for role players when it doesn't matter if they're not volume shooters. Your stars are going to take the shots. Can you make my stars life easier? If you can, you're valuable.

Chet shot 11%. I'll say it again.

The thunders starting lineup shot 33% from 3 in the finals. Team as a whole shot 37%.

People really over play the 3 percentage these days. If Sochan gets anywhere near league average, he's an above average player in the league and likely too expensive to play with Wemby. I'm glad he's taking his time to develop so we can afford a second contract.

The difference, of course, is that Chet shot 38% on almost 4 attempts/game in order to help get OKC to the finals.

Comparing finals stats to regular season stats is meaningless. Sample size and level of competition heavily distort that comparison.

[Mnky]

The difference, of course, is that Chet shot 38% on almost 4 attempts/game in order to help get OKC to the finals.

Comparing finals stats to regular season stats is meaningless. Sample size and level of competition heavily distort that comparison.

That's irrelevant. They won without him shooting league average. It's clearly not as important as all the other things he contributed.

[Mnky]

He made an instant improvement after the switch to one handed shot early in his rookie year and has made no improvements since. Better?



I'm also fine if it works, I don't really care which brand of basketball Spurs play as long as it's successful and consistent.
The thing is that playing him and Castle together didn't work so far and there's no reason for us to believe that will change until shooting improvements happen.
Either Castle develops from a bad shooter to a solid one or Jeremy develops from a non-shooter to a bad shooter.



You have sag off someone when the defense collapses, but Chet wasn't dared in the "we won't bother contesting even if you hesitate to shoot" way.



When I say passes up shots, I refer to the situations when noone bothers to contest him and the flow of the offense breaks. I'm not referring to him looking for the next pass situations that keep the offense going.



If we're going to have two of Fox/Castle/Harper on the floor at all times we need shooters on the wings. Yes, we could theoretically do without them, but having shooters would be more optimal.
Sochan in his curent iteration also can't play with Kornet.

I always said he got the short end of the stick with those PG and C experiments, but that's how it goes if you're fundamentally flawed.
If we exclude bigs, there wasn't a single non-shooting guard or wing on relevant playoff teams this year. Everyone who played was a better shooter than Jeremy.

If we're actually talking about making him effective even if he doesn't improve as a shooter, his post game has to be better. He'll find himself matched up with bad defenders a lot of the time because he's the lowest priority threat on our team and we can't have no more of those back to the basket dribbles into the paint without even thinking about the next step. He needs to take care of mismatches with confidence.

I agree that if he becomes a solid shooter he'd be a great fit, but like this he's always going to be the weak link.

I don't think it was a flawed item that got his experiments, it was his ability to do anything. His court vision and feel for the game absolutely got better from those horrendous PG experiments. He has a ton of potential. He's a competitor. It's fun to try things out. Fans want him to be a very basic player and that's just not what he is nor is it what the Spurs drafted him to be. They wanted a Swiss army knife and they got it.

Yes he broke the flow of offense. He didn't do it anymore than any other players to be honest. Castle had the same type of moments. Wemby had the same type of moments. Harrison Barnes had those same moments where I remember getting upset he didn't let it fly. Sometimes they're trying to slow the game down. Sometimes they're deliberately looking for a mismatch. There's legitimate reasons why players will turn from a shot that we don't know about. I honestly don't see it the way people are trying to sell it. It wasn't as bad as people are trying to make it seem.

It's odd because in my opinion, he looked for his shot a little too much at times trying to create in wembys rookie year and I feel some of that continued into last year. That's just not his role nor should it be with Wemby and Castle on the floor. But I'm getting off topic.

And once again, Sochan doesn't have to be a shooter if his center is the shooter. That means Sochan is the main rebounder. Which is why he fits so well with Wemby contrary to silly arguments. Wemby prefers the perimeter. Sochan helps him do that and knows how to cut to take advantage of wembys gravity.

I don't want to try to take advantage of Sochan when I have Wemby on the court. Wemby is the mismatch.

Fox is the mismatch. Castle is the mismatch. Harper will likely be the mismatch. I need someone to screen, dive and rebound with my rim crashers.

Back to the original point though, Sochan is definitely better in year 3 than year 1. Statistically and visually. He's smarter, a better passer, a premier iso defender, and he has the right ego playing next to Wemby knowing Wemby is the star.

Young, works hard, wants to improve and doesn't back down from a challenge. Heck yea I'll take that for another contract.

Love seeing him work on his game in the off season. He's doing what people want him to do and they're still whining.

[Jordan Jackson]

That's irrelevant. They won without him shooting league average. It's clearly not as important as all the other things he contributed.

You might be missing the point everyone is rather eloquently trying to explain to you. Chet is/was a good regular season shooter. Defenses HAVE to respect him at distance. Defenders are not going to leave him. No coach is leaving Chet open. Defensive schemes will be geared towards results that leave Sochan being left open.

Sochan/Chet is a poor comparison.

I think Sochan’s going to have a great season. The Spurs are going to make sure he gets paid. But I don’t think he sticks with this roster/team long term.

[scott]

That's irrelevant. They won without him shooting league average. It's clearly not as important as all the other things he contributed.

By that logic, apparently 3pt shooting doesn't matter at all anymore, because OKC won the finals while shooting below league average from 3 during the series.

Of course no one would make that argument, because it's absurd.


I don't think it was a flawed item that got his experiments, it was his ability to do anything. His court vision and feel for the game absolutely got better from those horrendous PG experiments. He has a ton of potential. He's a competitor. It's fun to try things out. Fans want him to be a very basic player and that's just not what he is nor is it what the Spurs drafted him to be. They wanted a Swiss army knife and they got it.

Yes he broke the flow of offense. He didn't do it anymore than any other players to be honest. Castle had the same type of moments. Wemby had the same type of moments. Harrison Barnes had those same moments where I remember getting upset he didn't let it fly. Sometimes they're trying to slow the game down. Sometimes they're deliberately looking for a mismatch. There's legitimate reasons why players will turn from a shot that we don't know about. I honestly don't see it the way people are trying to sell it. It wasn't as bad as people are trying to make it seem.

It's odd because in my opinion, he looked for his shot a little too much at times trying to create in wembys rookie year and I feel some of that continued into last year. That's just not his role nor should it be with Wemby and Castle on the floor. But I'm getting off topic.

And once again, Sochan doesn't have to be a shooter if his center is the shooter. That means Sochan is the main rebounder. Which is why he fits so well with Wemby contrary to silly arguments. Wemby prefers the perimeter. Sochan helps him do that and knows how to cut to take advantage of wembys gravity.

I don't want to try to take advantage of Sochan when I have Wemby on the court. Wemby is the mismatch.

Fox is the mismatch. Castle is the mismatch. Harper will likely be the mismatch. I need someone to screen, dive and rebound with my rim crashers.

Back to the original point though, Sochan is definitely better in year 3 than year 1. Statistically and visually. He's smarter, a better passer, a premier iso defender, and he has the right ego playing next to Wemby knowing Wemby is the star.

Young, works hard, wants to improve and doesn't back down from a challenge. Heck yea I'll take that for another contract.

Love seeing him work on his game in the off season. He's doing what people want him to do and they're still whining.

The two highlighted sections are key, IMO. Sochan, in his current form, helps the other team neutralize the mismatch Wemby presents, because he allows the opposing team to put their C on Sochan instead of on Wemby.

[Mnky]

You might be missing the point everyone is rather eloquently trying to explain to you. Chet is/was a good regular season shooter. Defenses HAVE to respect him at distance. Defenders are not going to leave him. No coach is leaving Chet open. Defensive schemes will be geared towards results that leave Sochan being left open.

Sochan/Chet is a poor comparison.

I think Sochan’s going to have a great season. The Spurs are going to make sure he gets paid. But I don’t think he sticks with this roster/team long term.

That was such a weird approach.

The evidence provided is that you can win with out the need to shoot 40% from three.

The original argument was they needed to be a great shooter to win. The evidence proves that wrong. This isn't deep. You're projecting your inability to take the simple evidence and point provided.

Changing the argument consistently doesn't change the original premise that Sochan not being an elite shooter isn't going to keep the Spurs from winning. That's all there is to it.

[Mnky]

By that logic, apparently 3pt shooting doesn't matter at all anymore, because OKC won the finals while shooting below league average from 3 during the series.

Of course no one would make that argument, because it's absurd.



The two highlighted sections are key, IMO. Sochan, in his current form, helps the other team neutralize the mismatch Wemby presents, because he allows the opposing team to put their C on Sochan instead of on Wemby.

Wemby is going to be a mismatch for everyone. That's the benefit of having a superstar. If he was a regular player, then yes, the fit would be more complex and an issue. It isn't in this case. However, there are benefits in this case for Sochan fit towards Wemby.

The argument isn't that 3% doesn't matter. Why do the arguments continue to shift over this topic? It's purely that he doesn't need to be an all world shooter at this point with everything else he brings. There are more positives than negatives and it being a 30% shooter is the biggest flag people can come up with against Sochan, man he's working on it and people are hating him for it. :lol
This is what people are pointing out in response to the hate he's receiving. He's literally showing he's working on the one thing people keep pushing and their response is we need to move on.

That's the absurd argument.

[scott]

Wemby is going to be a mismatch for everyone. That's the benefit of having a superstar. If he was a regular player, then yes, the fit would be more complex and an issue. It isn't in this case. However, there are benefits in this case for Sochan fit towards Wemby.

The argument isn't that 3% doesn't matter. Why do the arguments continue to shift over this topic? It's purely that he doesn't need to be an all world shooter at this point with everything else he brings. There are more positives than negatives and it being a 30% shooter is the biggest flag people can come up with against Sochan, man he's working on it and people are hating him for it. :lol
This is what people are pointing out in response to the hate he's receiving. He's literally showing he's working on the one thing people keep pushing and their response is we need to move on.

That's the absurd argument.

There are lots of players Wemby isn't a mismatch for though. We've all seen it with our own eyes. And unfortunately right now, playing Sochan with Wemby allows other teams to have an easier ability to counter Wemby on their defensive end.

I agree he doesn't need to be an all world shooter. I said in a previous post, I'll be happy with 32% on 4 attempts/game. But right now he's a complete non-shooter, and it makes him unplayable at times. Being a 30% isn't his biggest negative.. being a complete nothing on the offensive game, resulting in the team playing 4v5 is his biggest negative.

I agree though that it's good he is working on it. Not really much else we can ask for, right? It's not like he's going to become a good shooter by meditating on it. Practice is a good thing. I hope it translates on the court.

[SpursFan86]

Anyone else feeling more confident that the Spurs extend Sochan given us making no other moves at PF this offseason? Clearly they’re pretty high on him if they’re fine to go into the season with a PF rotation of Sochan/Barnes/Bryant*/Keldon**

*Really hard for me to imagine the Spurs are expecting Bryant to earn noticeable minutes at the 4 this year
**If playing Keldon at the 4 is part of their rotational strategy this year we have serious problems :lol

[Jordan Jackson]

That was such a weird approach.

The evidence provided is that you can win with out the need to shoot 40% from three.

The original argument was they needed to be a great shooter to win. The evidence proves that wrong. This isn't deep. You're projecting your inability to take the simple evidence and point provided.

Changing the argument consistently doesn't change the original premise that Sochan not being an elite shooter isn't going to keep the Spurs from winning. That's all there is to it.

You pointed to an exception to the rule. Presti unloaded Giddey because he wasn’t a credible shooter and dragged the team down in the playoffs versus Dallas (plus he’s a pervert…allegedly… that didn’t help either).

The Spurs roster is being built around an elite big. Yes, he is going to need elite shooting around him. A lot of it. Stand still and movement shooters would be nice.

How about the Spurs try not be stupid like the Nuggets have been. Now that’s an example you might want to lean into as to what happens when you don’t surround your elite big with high level shooters.

As for Sochan, no team trying to win at the highest level should be bending its schemes and roster construction to accommodate a role player.

I think we can all agree, he’s not hall of fame bound and unlikely to be an all star. Clearly, the Spurs seem to think otherwise, hence choosing him as their big forward over Jdub. That’s their choice.

Maybe in a year or two it doesn’t look as bad. But as of right now, it doesn’t look good.

[picnroll]

Argument is that if Sochan shot 4 3 pts at 35% that it would give Wemby a better matchup. Would that have taken Dillon Brooks off Wemby? Why weren’t the Nuggets able to keep Caruso off Jokic in the playoffs with their 3 pt shooting? I’m all for Sochan improving but making his 1 extra shot a game at 3-5% greater efficiency but that being the Spurs offensive failure point is completely bogus. Castle improving his efficiency and FT shooting and hopefully Harper being efficient are far, far greater needs for the Spurs offenses succeess.

[Mnky]

It's not like he's going to become a good shooter by meditating on it.

Now if Wemby returns from the monestary shooting 50% from 3, we're going to have to revisit this conversation.

[Mnky]

You pointed to an exception to the rule. Presti unloaded Giddey because he wasn’t a credible shooter and dragged the team down in the playoffs versus Dallas (plus he’s a pervert…allegedly… that didn’t help either).

The Spurs roster is being built around an elite big. Yes, he is going to need elite shooting around him. A lot of it. Stand still and movement shooters would be nice.

How about the Spurs try not be stupid like the Nuggets have been. Now that’s an example you might want to lean into as to what happens when you don’t surround your elite big with high level shooters.

As for Sochan, no team trying to win at the highest level should be bending its schemes and roster construction to accommodate a role player.

I think we can all agree, he’s not hall of fame bound and unlikely to be an all star. Clearly, the Spurs seem to think otherwise, hence choosing him as their big forward over Jdub. That’s their choice.

Maybe in a year or two it doesn’t look as bad. But as of right now, it doesn’t look good.

The nuggets literally won a ring. What are you yapping on about now?

Once again, the argument changes. He's now being compared to hall of famers and schemes being designed around him. Some of y'all really struggle with sticking to a point.

The argument has always been, he's a good young player who is getting better. He doesn't need to be an above average shooter to be effective. That's all.

He's working on his weaknesses. People are happy to see it. Negative Nancy's are showing up to whine about it and complain as if it's a bad thing. That's silly.
That is all. Have a good day bro.

[ace3g]

Poland NT Eurobasket 2025 group play schedule:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gu47WV1XIAEab_u?format=png&name=900x900

Also get some friendly games in early August.

DL1045TN7VP

[Splits]

Poland NT Eurobasket 2025 group play schedule:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gu47WV1XIAEab_u?format=png&name=900x900

1942583756310864183

[itzsoweezee]

Sochan’s problem is not his lack of shooting, it’s his low basketball skills. He could get by without being a good shooter if he was a good passer, if he knew where to move on offense, if he could make good decisions when he puts the ball on the floor. He can’t do any of these things right now, which means his usefulness on offense is very limited and sometimes negative. He has the skills of a backup center, but, unfortunately, he’s 6’7”.

[TimDunkem]

Sochan’s problem is not his lack of shooting, it’s his low basketball skills. He could get by without being a good shooter if he was a good passer, if he knew where to move on offense, if he could make good decisions when he puts the ball on the floor. He can’t do any of these things right now, which means his usefulness on offense is very limited and sometimes negative. He has the skills of a backup center, but, unfortunately, he’s 6’7”.
He also clearly has a low IQ.

[ace3g]

Eurobasket vlog.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOpMFJwnEHs

[KobesAchilles]

Dude starts the year as a starter and then gets benched. He shot 28% from 15-19 feet and 35% from 10-14 feet. And shot 30% from 3, and 68% from the free throw line and you have morons claiming he “improved.” He also went 21 out of 54 games without even making a 3 and I’m sure that will be spun as “improvement” somehow.

I’m going to start an official 3 point tracker for Sochan once the season starts. Pretty easy to for me to keep track of since I only have to bump it 28 times a season. Fuck nearly half his games he didn’t even make a damn 3. Mnky defends Sochan like he’s an all NBA player or an all-star or even a fucking starter. The dude is a bench player. He’s behind the corpse of Harrison Barnes in the line up simply bc he can’t shoot worth shit and hasn’t improved at all on offense. And you can say he’s improved or he’s good and blah blah blah but the Spurs themselves don’t agree with your own statement. He didn’t even start once we lost Wemby.

[Knoxxx]

Maybe some of these younger role players will improve once we have a better leading cast so they can become athletic supporters.

[BatManu20]

1950175177901543552

[spurraider21]

looks a lot cleaner tbh. just hope it holds up in live action

[LeBowen]

If I was Mitch I'd tell Sochan he's getting benched every time he refuses to take a shot opponents are daring him to take, no exceptions or excuses.

[Spurs Homer]

Dude starts the year as a starter and then gets benched. He shot 28% from 15-19 feet and 35% from 10-14 feet. And shot 30% from 3, and 68% from the free throw line and you have morons claiming he “improved.” He also went 21 out of 54 games without even making a 3 and I’m sure that will be spun as “improvement” somehow.

I’m going to start an official 3 point tracker for Sochan once the season starts. Pretty easy to for me to keep track of since I only have to bump it 28 times a season. Fuck nearly half his games he didn’t even make a damn 3. Mnky defends Sochan like he’s an all NBA player or an all-star or even a fucking starter. The dude is a bench player. He’s behind the corpse of Harrison Barnes in the line up simply bc he can’t shoot worth shit and hasn’t improved at all on offense. And you can say he’s improved or he’s good and blah blah blah but the Spurs themselves don’t agree with your own statement. He didn’t even start once we lost Wemby.

Tell the world how you know shit about the game without saying it...

holee fuck.

Barnes is about as good a veteran presence and consummate pro any team would be lucky to have.

Sochan is raw/unfinished and if you cannot see with your own eyes...it says everything about you and your level of ignorance.

Im not even the biggest Sochan fan but he is not a piece that will hurt the team by having him around as a good utility man and his defense is actually something most teams would like to have.

but you do - you...

[scott]

Steph Sochan and we staaaaaaaacked

[KobesAchilles]

Tell the world how you know shit about the game without saying it...

holee fuck.

Barnes is about as good a veteran presence and consummate pro any team would be lucky to have.

Sochan is raw/unfinished and if you cannot see with your own eyes...it says everything about you and your level of ignorance.

Im not even the biggest Sochan fan but he is not a piece that will hurt the team by having him around as a good utility man and his defense is actually something most teams would like to have.

but you do - you...
so he’s a bench player? Like I’ve been saying. He can’t shoot? Like I’ve been saying. You agree with my points but get all defensive about what exactly? Bc if Sochan could actually shoot he wouldn’t be a work in progress really.I’m not against Sochan on the Spurs. I like him as a bench player.

I’m against Sochan as a starter. He’s not good enough to be a starter on the Spurs if we are going to make a serious playoff push. This is proven by the team itself (who I guess know more than shit about the game?) since they’re the ones who benched him. Btw he started the year not on the bench so…

And I’m not going to get hyped on year 4 of Sochan changing his shot. You can get hyped by a 30 second video all you want and do you. But I won’t. He’s a nice bench player. We should sign him for a 4 year $52 million deal. But that’s all he is.

[Spurs Homer]

so he’s a bench player? Like I’ve been saying. He can’t shoot? Like I’ve been saying. You agree with my points but get all defensive about what exactly? Bc if Sochan could actually shoot he wouldn’t be a work in progress really.I’m not against Sochan on the Spurs. I like him as a bench player.

I’m against Sochan as a starter. He’s not good enough to be a starter on the Spurs if we are going to make a serious playoff push. This is proven by the team itself (who I guess know more than shit about the game?) since they’re the ones who benched him. Btw he started the year not on the bench so…

And I’m not going to get hyped on year 4 of Sochan changing his shot. You can get hyped by a 30 second video all you want and do you. But I won’t. He’s a nice bench player. We should sign him for a 4 year $52 million deal. But that’s all he is.

Sochan might be a crucial starting piece if the coaching staff decides he is…

the coaching staff will see how the pieces work together…every good team is made up of complementary pieces…not on some “all star” heirarchy…

i dont believe vassell should be anywhere near the starting five - but i am not tasked with that decision and if the coaching staff decides vassell fits better in the starting lineup- then i will assume they have good reasons for it…

[benefactor]

Empty Gym God

[CorrectCrusader]

That shot is horrendous, it's like Vassels super high release but way on his right side.
Who's teaching him this? why can't he just shoot normally like everyone else? You're an elite athlete, it's not that hard to shoot.

[itzsoweezee]

That shot is horrendous, it's like Vassels super high release but way on his right side.
Who's teaching him this? why can't he just shoot normally like everyone else? You're an elite athlete, it's not that hard to shoot.

Almost everything about basketball seems new to him. Did he grow up playing the sport? He plays like he learned the game in his teens.

[KobesAchilles]

Empty Gym God
Klay Thompson releases a clip of making 78 straight 3s in a row and Sochan releases one of him making 2 out of 3 :lol

[buttsR4rebounding]

Klay Thompson releases a clip of making 78 straight 3s in a row and Sochan releases one of him making 2 out of 3 :lol

So you're saying they had the same amount of misses...

[cutewizard]

Make or break season for him

[KobesAchilles]

So you're saying they had the same amount of misses...
Yup :lol
Im going to steal that going forward. Well Sochan missed less 3s than Curry did last season so…

[The Truth #6]

Form is bad but better. For some reason, for lots of players, these changes take years to see the actual improvement on the court. On the flip we're just trying to go from awful to less than average.

I think the motivation is there. He's seen two of his draft mates get sent packing so hopefully that adds more fuel to the fire and a survival instinct at least kicks in. And even if his shooting doesn't increase as much as everyone wants, I'll be interested to see if any other part of his game improves or not: rebounding, finishing in the paint, dribbling, antagonizing offensive players with dirty play, et cetera.

[OldMan88]

For dirty defense, he needs lessons from Bruce Bowen and Danny “Stinky Finger” Ferry.

[The Truth #6]

I think Steve Adams said Sochan basically gave him a prostate exam during a rebound one time, so Sochan is familiar with getting his hands dirty, so to speak.

[Bruno]

Poland first preparation game for the Eurobasket is tomorrow. It should give us hints on whether or not Sochan has improved his outside shoot. If he can shoot better, it will be great for Spurs next season.

Fox's extension and Sochan's 3 points shooting with his NT are the main things to watch regarding Spurs in the following days/weeks.

[dn0774]

Poland first preparation game for the Eurobasket is tomorrow. It should give us hints on whether or not Sochan has improved his outside shoot. If he can shoot better, it will be great for Spurs next season.

Fox's extension and Sochan's 3 points shooting with his NT are the main things to watch regarding Spurs in the following days/weeks.

Who does Poland play and what time?

[Bruno]

Who does Poland play and what time?

Senegal at 17:30CET/10:30CST.

Their schedule has already been posted in this thread:
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300168&page=153&p=11272612&viewfull=1#post11272612

[Ignazzz]

Terminarz przygotowań reprezentacji Polski:
02.08, godz. 17:30 - mecz towarzyski z Senegalem w Trydencie
 | Polsat Sport 2
03.08, godz. 16:30 lub 19:00 - drugi mecz towarzyski w Trydencie (Włochy/Islandia) | Polsat Sport 2

06.08, mecz towarzyski z Serbią w Belgradzie
 | zamknięty sparing
10.08, godz. 15:00, mecz towarzyski ze Szwecją w Katowicach
 | Polsat Sport 1
14.08, godz. 18:00, mecz towarzyski z Gruzją w Sosnowcu
 | Polsat Sport 1
17.08, godz. 14:00, mecz towarzyski z Finlandią w Sosnowcu | Polsat Sport 1

21.08 - mecz towarzyski z Finlandią w Helsinkach

[Ice009]

Would there be anywhere to watch these games if you're in other countries outside of EU?

[ace3g]

This is the Eurobasket Prep Game site:

Poland


Date

Location

Opposition

Result

Live stream



August 2

Trento (ITA)

Senegal



Courtside 1891 (https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.courtside1891.basketball%2F competitions%2Fwarm-up-games%3Futm_source%3Dfibaweb%26utm_medium%3Dreferr al%26utm_campaign%3DPrep2025&data=05%7C02%7Cbradley.gains.ext%40fiba.basketball %7C4d10c63890de4e7ad3fd08ddd0f173fb%7C8c3188a93297 41e1a7081a0045f54c41%7C0%7C0%7C638896457788274802% 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIl YiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIs IldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=eTiNSqFAu%2F%2FgZsg4LTfAPwmOinIv4FhgvQa%2Fhh ZHu%2Bg%3D&reserved=0)



August 3

Trento (ITA)

TBC



Courtside 1891 (https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.courtside1891.basketball%2F competitions%2Fwarm-up-games%3Futm_source%3Dfibaweb%26utm_medium%3Dreferr al%26utm_campaign%3DPrep2025&data=05%7C02%7Cbradley.gains.ext%40fiba.basketball %7C4d10c63890de4e7ad3fd08ddd0f173fb%7C8c3188a93297 41e1a7081a0045f54c41%7C0%7C0%7C638896457788274802% 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIl YiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIs IldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=eTiNSqFAu%2F%2FgZsg4LTfAPwmOinIv4FhgvQa%2Fhh ZHu%2Bg%3D&reserved=0)



August 6

Belgrade (SRB)

Serbia







August 10

Katowice (POL)

Sweden







August 14

Sosnowiec (POL)

Georgia







August 17

Sosnowiec (POL)

Finland







August 21

Espoo (FIN)

Finland

















Tracker: Preparation games for FIBA EuroBasket 2025 - FIBA EuroBasket 2025 | FIBA Basketball (https://www.fiba.basketball/en/events/fiba-eurobasket-2025/news/tracker-preparation-games-for-fiba-eurobasket-2025)

Watch FIBA EuroBasket Warm Up Games on Courtside 1891 (https://www.courtside1891.basketball/competitions/warm-up-games?utm_source=fibaweb&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=Prep2025)

[RC_Drunkford]

Sochan is getting cooked right now by Senegal

[RC_Drunkford]

Quick summary of Sochan's play against Senegal:

-Poland uses him as an offensive initiator a lot, cause he's a non-shooter. That doesn't really do anything except take time off the clock to reset
-other than that Sochan is parked in the corners with his man sagging off to the paint to play low man (we know why)
-tried to initiate a fastbreak and got stripped at midcourt
-got post position and asked for the ball, took one dribble, picked up his dribble, passed the ball back out
-did one of his classic "let me drive into the paint, oh shit what do I do now? Let me pass it back out" - of course that pass got stolen and Senegal got a breakaway dunk
-attempted jumpshots: zero
-fumbled a bunch of passes in the dunkers spot
-was far out behind the backboard with his back turned to the rim, jumped up with no chance to score and got blocked
-didn't lock up anybody on defense
-gets pretty much ignored on offense by his teammates when he doesn't have the ball
-scored all of his 6 points off offensive rebounds

can't find the stats anywhere, so I'm just mentioning those statlines from what I've counted watching.

[RC_Drunkford]

Quick summary of Sochan's play against Senegal:

-Poland uses him as an offensive initiator a lot, cause he's a non-shooter. That doesn't really do anything except take time off the clock to reset
-other than that Sochan is parked in the corners with his man sagging off to the paint to play low man (we know why)
-tried to initiate a fastbreak and got stripped at midcourt
-got post position and asked for the ball, took one dribble, picked up his dribble, passed the ball back out
-did one of his classic "let me drive into the paint, oh shit what do I do now? Let me pass it back out" - of course that pass got stolen and Senegal got a breakaway dunk
-attempted jumpshots: zero
-fumbled a bunch of passes in the dunkers spot
-was far out behind the backboard with his back turned to the rim, jumped up with no chance to score and got blocked
-didn't lock up anybody on defense
-gets pretty much ignored on offense by his teammates when he doesn't have the ball
-scored 4 of his 8 points off offensive rebounds
-had a nice dunk going downhill in crunch time

can't find the stats anywhere, so I'm just mentioning those statlines from what I've counted watching.

[tonight...you]

Quick summary of Sochan's play against Senegal:

-Poland uses him as an offensive initiator a lot, cause he's a non-shooter. That doesn't really do anything except take time off the clock to reset
-other than that Sochan is parked in the corners with his man sagging off to the paint to play low man (we know why)
-tried to initiate a fastbreak and got stripped at midcourt
-got post position and asked for the ball, took one dribble, picked up his dribble, passed the ball back out
-did one of his classic "let me drive into the paint, oh shit what do I do now? Let me pass it back out" - of course that pass got stolen and Senegal got a breakaway dunk
-attempted jumpshots: zero
-fumbled a bunch of passes in the dunkers spot
-was far out behind the backboard with his back turned to the rim, jumped up with no chance to score and got blocked
-didn't lock up anybody on defense
-gets pretty much ignored on offense by his teammates when he doesn't have the ball
-scored all of his 6 points off offensive rebounds

can't find the stats anywhere, so I'm just mentioning those statlines from what I've counted watching.
Not encouraging.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GxXn2e-X0AAxV_S?format=jpg&name=large

[ace3g]

Would like to note that some NBA players have set roles with their national team that differs from their role in the NBA.

[LeBowen]

No 3pt shots were missed!

[dn0774]

Jeremy is the most noteworthy NBA player for either team, not saying he should dominate or anything but he should be a clear cut top 2-3 player on that court and in this game it doesn't sound like that was the case. For a guy heading into his 4th NBA season, yea i'm concerned (still). That being said, international play can be weird sometimes.

[exstatic]

Jeremy is the most noteworthy NBA player for either team, not saying he should dominate or anything but he should be a clear cut top 2-3 player on that court and in this game it doesn't sound like that was the case. For a guy heading into his 4th NBA season, yea i'm concerned (still). That being said, international play can be weird sometimes.
There’s a lot of politics in international bball. Coaches have biases for or against certain players, and there is sometimes a seniority ladder.

[ace3g]

Did shoot his 2 FTs two-handed

https://x.com/matbabiarz/status/1951702049252638889

[KobesAchilles]

I’m glad he didn’t attempt a single 3 point shot. I don’t want to kill his confidence as a shooter before the season even starts. Save all those 3balls for the regular season (and empty gyms).

[scott]

Quick summary of Sochan's play against Senegal:

-Poland uses him as an offensive initiator a lot, cause he's a non-shooter. That doesn't really do anything except take time off the clock to reset
-other than that Sochan is parked in the corners with his man sagging off to the paint to play low man (we know why)
-tried to initiate a fastbreak and got stripped at midcourt
-got post position and asked for the ball, took one dribble, picked up his dribble, passed the ball back out
-did one of his classic "let me drive into the paint, oh shit what do I do now? Let me pass it back out" - of course that pass got stolen and Senegal got a breakaway dunk
-attempted jumpshots: zero
-fumbled a bunch of passes in the dunkers spot
-was far out behind the backboard with his back turned to the rim, jumped up with no chance to score and got blocked
-didn't lock up anybody on defense
-gets pretty much ignored on offense by his teammates when he doesn't have the ball
-scored 4 of his 8 points off offensive rebounds
-had a nice dunk going downhill in crunch time

can't find the stats anywhere, so I'm just mentioning those statlines from what I've counted watching.

Brutal. Sounds like he’s just the same player he was last year. Maybe it takes a few games for the Steph Curry gym workout to pay off

[Strategic]

Crickets

[tonight...you]

Sochan is what he is.

[ginobilized]

Rough game, no doubt. First games often suck.

I'll reserve judgement until week 5 of the Eurobasket tourney. I do believe, however, he'd have to play phenomenally and kill training camp to regain his role as a starter. We'll see.

[timtonymanu]

Sochan’s about to get a crappy extension for being part of the friendship crew and it’s going to be really annoying.

20 million a year because he said Fuck Houston one time :cry

[NASpurs]

But at least we'll always have the IG videos of him shooting 3s in an empty gym like Ben Simmons.

[KobesAchilles]

But at least we'll always have the IG videos of him shooting 3s in an empty gym like Ben Simmons.
I mean he was making fade away 3s in practice! That has to mean something. Plus his form is completely different again.

[Baam]

He's so much worse than Vassell, should be the first one out of the door tbh. If tosb Olynyk and rookie Bryant successfully keep him out of the rotation it'll be such a blessing for this team.

[Spurs Homer]

im calling it now...the next game or two...sochan will have a decent performance and shoot well...

and

the same exact posters slamming him will also overreact to that one good performance...

rinse/repeat

[LeBowen]

im calling it now...the next game or two...sochan will have a decent performance and shoot well...

and

the same exact posters slamming him will also overreact to that one good performance...

rinse/repeat

I don't think anyone is changing their opinion on Sochan.
He's got plenty of both doubters and believers in here, but I don't recall anyone changing their opinion on him.

I personally think he shouldn't be considered as an important member of the rotation anymore.
If he improves on his flaws - great, if not just start DNPing him. We're about to start seriously competing and we can't afford to have the entire team suffer because he can't shoot even after three full years of NBA development.

[Chomag]

Could of been just a rough of game for him but definitely not a great showing that he has improved on anything. I'm rooting for some better games from him going forward and hopefully he just needs to work some cobwebs out.

[The Truth #6]

2/2 for two-handed free throws. Zero missed free throws. If we massage these stats a little more, we can get a positive interpretation...

[ace3g]

https://x.com/matbabiarz/status/1952057625299808377

[KobesAchilles]

I don't think anyone is changing their opinion on Sochan.
He's got plenty of both doubters and believers in here, but I don't recall anyone changing their opinion on him.

I personally think he shouldn't be considered as an important member of the rotation anymore.
If he improves on his flaws - great, if not just start DNPing him. We're about to start seriously competing and we can't afford to have the entire team suffer because he can't shoot even after three full years of NBA development.
He’s a much needed bench player. I love Sochan on our team. I just hate this narrative that he has improved his shot (when he hasn’t) and that him posting drills with bad form is seen as gospel that he has turned the corner on shooting.
Tbh I’d love to sign and extend him this season but just have Wright come to the simple realization that Sochan is a bench player going forward and pay him accordingly. Nothing more than 12-15 million a season

[scott]

This is all based on RC_Drunkford's report above, because I did not watch these games, but the biggest red flag for me, despite his Instagram Shooting Videos, is that even Poland (not exactly dripping with NBA talent) finds the best use for Sochan to be to stick him in the corner, and even then despite opposing teams sagging off him, he still isn't taking (or making) 3 pointers.

Just a complete non shooter out there, which means his upside is capped to being a bench big.

[cd98]

Is Poland going all out with its players to win exhibition games that don’t mean anything?

[scott]

Is Poland going all out with its players to win exhibition games that don’t mean anything?

No, Poland is so good that they can afford to fuck around and experiment in exhibition games. A true European powerhouse.

[DAF86]

Jeremy is the most noteworthy NBA player for either team, not saying he should dominate or anything but he should be a clear cut top 2-3 player on that court and in this game it doesn't sound like that was the case. For a guy heading into his 4th NBA season, yea i'm concerned (still). That being said, international play can be weird sometimes.

But Mnky exstatic and Mr. Body told me Sochan would avergae 50 on Summer League. :lol

[TimDunkem]

^Well, if Mr.Fat Body said it, you can be sure it's shitty take.

[cutewizard]

At least Mamu could score

[Bruno]

Given the relatively low quality of the opponents and Sochan's teammates, he really should be able to produce more in these games. We well see what he will do in other games, especially in the one that matters during the Eurobasket, be that's disappointing.

[Mnky]

The same guys I told to go learn to like themselves are in here name dropping like a groupie. It was honest advice. Your life is so good right now you're hoping for a reason to bring back people to talk to you.

I'll gladly talk ball with anyone, but not invested in broken people trying to infect others with their negativity. I really hope y'all learn to get outside and enjoy life before ya waste too much.


Seems like Sochan is playing bad in league. That sucks. Hopefully he plays better.

Alright then, back to having a life.

[DAF86]

The same guys I told to go learn to like themselves are in here name dropping like a groupie. It was honest advice. Your life is so good right now you're hoping for a reason to bring back people to talk to you.

I'll gladly talk ball with anyone, but not invested in broken people trying to infect others with their negativity. I really hope y'all learn to get outside and enjoy life before ya waste too much.


Seems like Sochan is playing bad in league. That sucks. Hopefully he plays better.

Alright then, back to having a life.

Having to come up with made up scenarios about people you know nothing about just because you can't argue like a normal person. :lol

If you were paying attention, you would realize that I'm not being "negative" and I actually like Sochan's play (outside of his shooting). Me being smart enough and actually knowing something about basketball to realize Sochan doesn't have the skillset to drop 50 or 30 ppg at any level of semi-professional basketball doesn't mean I'm being negative, it just means that I like to have sensible takes that draw rationale from actual events of real life, tbh.

[Mnky]

You got told that the summer league is easily the worse league in the association and it would make bench players look like stars and felt the need to die on the hill that argued against it.

You're looking for attention and an argument. Nothing about that says you're a happy person brother.

The wild thing is how many times people are replaying made ups arguments about Sochan.

Literally everyone says hes a bad shooter and he needs to improve as a player. Both sides. People who want him off the team and people who don't mind him on the team. There's only one side of Sochan take that's trying to create an argument out of it.

[DAF86]

You got told that the summer league is easily the worse league in the association and it would make bench players look like stars and felt the need to die on the hill that argued against it.

No, I wasn't told that. I was told Sochan would "drop 50" on Summer league. I realized the "50" part was just a figure of speech (or at least I hope so, after reading more from you, I'm not sure anymore :lol) to saying he would be a primary offensive option on summer league, to which I replied he wouldn't because he doesn't have the skill-set. Which is absolutely true, and him not being able to produce as such at an arguably even lower level proves it. I don't know why you are acting as if I'm the one being wrong here. :lol


You're looking for attention and an argument. Nothing about that says you're a happy person brother.

I'm arguing basketball on a basketball forum, how dare I? This clearly shows I'm miserable. :lol

If you must know, I'm quite happy with my life, tbh.


The wild thing is how many times people are replaying made ups arguments about Sochan.

Literally everyone says hes a bad shooter and he needs to improve as a player. Both sides. People who want him off the team and people who don't mind him on the team. There's only one side of Sochan take that's trying to create an argument out of it.

Which side would that be, because I'm among those that still want him on the roster, tbh.

[KobesAchilles]

No, I wasn't told that. I was told Sochan would "drop 50" on Summer league. I realized the "50" part was just a figure of speech (or at least I hope so, after reading more from you, I'm not sure anymore :lol) to saying he would be a primary offensive option on summer league, to which I replied he wouldn't because he doesn't have the skill-set. Which is absolutely true, and him not being able to produce as such at an arguably even lower level proves it. I don't know why you are acting as if I'm the one being wrong here. :lol



I'm arguing basketball on a basketball forum, how dare I? This clearly shows I'm miserable. :lol

If you must know, I'm quite happy with my life, tbh.



Which side would that be, because I'm among those that still want him on the roster, tbh.
Dude is a troll tbh. Don’t take him seriously at all. He is constantly wrong and then when pointed out he just uses his “you must be a miserable person line.”

[Ice009]

I'm kind of surprised he's playing this bad to start with. I mean, it seems he's playing levels below his NBA play, and I don't know why. I don't want him off the team, but I also hope the Spurs don't pay him much if they want to extend him.

[ambchang]

Surprising he’s this bad tbh. As an nba player he should be easily scoring in that setting, even without a functional outside shot.

For a big with his profile he should be able to crash the boards, drive for layups or just get out on the open court.

Didn’t watch the game but from what was described and the box score it almost sounds like he got worse. Unless Senegal was focusing their entire team to stop sochan (which I’d doubt they would do), sochan getting those numbers sounds terrible.

[spurraider21]

no matter how good or bad you think summer league is, saying sochan would drop (or average) 50 in the summer league would be the exact same take as "current jeremy sochan would be the best offensive player to ever step foot on a summer league court" and i simply cant take that seriously

[scott]

Am I reading this correct, there is one more friendly on Aug 10, and then Poland doesn’t play again until the tournament starts on the 28th?

[spurraider21]

Surprising he’s this bad tbh. As an nba player he should be easily scoring in that setting, even without a functional outside shot.

For a big with his profile he should be able to crash the boards, drive for layups or just get out on the open court.

Didn’t watch the game but from what was described and the box score it almost sounds like he got worse. Unless Senegal was focusing their entire team to stop sochan (which I’d doubt they would do), sochan getting those numbers sounds terrible.
he's not big enough to be "a big" and his offensive game is too rudimentary to be anything but a big, which is why he's been caught in an awkward spot. he's a bigger Andre Roberson, which is an NBA player, just not a very good one

as bad as we think his offense has been so far, just think about how much that would be exacerbated in a playoff series

[Mr. Body]

I have no idea who anybody's talking about, but the takes that Summer League is some phenomenal basketball world where established NBA players couldn't dominate pretty easily is certainly a take. It's not just Sochan, anyone who is a good NBA player would rip the SL. That's why they don't play there. But you guys really, really like defending Summer League for some reason.

[spurraider21]

I have no idea who anybody's talking about, but the takes that Summer League is some phenomenal basketball world where established NBA players couldn't dominate pretty easily is certainly a take. It's not just Sochan, anyone who is a good NBA player would rip the SL. That's why they don't play there. But you guys really, really like defending Summer League for some reason.


no matter how good or bad you think summer league is, saying sochan would drop (or average) 50 in the summer league would be the exact same take as "current jeremy sochan would be the best offensive player to ever step foot on a summer league court" and i simply cant take that seriously
do you think 2025 sochan is better offensively than 2023 victor was? do you think that right now he's a better scorer than cooper flagg? rookie john wall, donovan mitchell, dame lillard? you think sochan is better (offensively) now than those guys were as rookies? really? sochan, who scores 11ppg mostly while beeing spoonfed on cuts is a better scorer than these guys were who were scoring 20 nightly against nba competition just months after they were in summer league?

[Mnky]

I have no idea who anybody's talking about, but the takes that Summer League is some phenomenal basketball world where established NBA players couldn't dominate pretty easily is certainly a take. It's not just Sochan, anyone who is a good NBA player would rip the SL. That's why they don't play there. But you guys really, really like defending Summer League for some reason.

Straw man arguments. The argument is constantly changing and drawn out from the original preface. NBA players would dominate in the summer league if the team revolved around them. Very simple take yet it gets spurn into personal agendas.

[Mnky]

no matter how good or bad you think summer league is, saying sochan would drop (or average) 50 in the summer league would be the exact same take as "current jeremy sochan would be the best offensive player to ever step foot on a summer league court" and i simply cant take that seriously

The emphasis was originally put simply that the NBA is a much different game than the summer league and it's silly that people succumb to the ups and down of what happens there. The argument got hijacked by personal vendettas with people wanting to desperately tell the board they don't like Sochan for the 100th time. It wasn't even about Sochan to begin with.

[Bruno]

Am I reading this correct, there is one more friendly on Aug 10, and then Poland doesn’t play again until the tournament starts on the 28th?

Next game is tomorrow against Serbia.

An easier to read schedule:
https://www.fiba.basketball/en/events/fiba-eurobasket-2025/news/tracker-preparation-games-for-fiba-eurobasket-2025

[spurraider21]

The emphasis was originally put simply that the NBA is a much different game than the summer league and it's silly that people succumb to the ups and down of what happens there. The argument got hijacked by personal vendettas with people wanting to desperately tell the board they don't like Sochan for the 100th time. It wasn't even about Sochan to begin with.
100% agree

there were people here not only saying that Jones-Garcia needs an NBA contract, but people were legitimately saying he should be starting for the spurs :lol

but when i saw people saying "sochan would be scoring 50 in these games" i definitely had to push back

[scott]

Next game is tomorrow against Serbia.

An easier to read schedule:
https://www.fiba.basketball/en/events/fiba-eurobasket-2025/news/tracker-preparation-games-for-fiba-eurobasket-2025

Many thanks Bruno! I'm amazed how hard it is to find information/stats on these friendlies on the internet

[J_Paco]

With Malaki & Blake gone that leaves Jeremy, Devin & Keldon as the new ST "whipping boys," sadly.

He'll never be a 'complete' offensive player, but he needs to learn to do enough to keep defenses honest (like Aaron Gordon or Bruce Bowen). Also, looking at some finishing highlights between last season and the one prior, you can tell Sochan was deal with some nagging injuries in '24 - '25.

He didn't have the same explosiveness or pop vertically until the end of the season. When he was miscast as the starting or back up C when Wemby went down.

He needs a defined role and prioritize playing off of Wemby, Fox, Castle & Harper exclusively on offense. He needs to be a 'better' version of Jarred Vanderbilt from two or three years ago, IMO.

Contract talk is a moot point cause it's whatever number the Spurs and his representation can agree to. I get that everyone on ST is an armchair GM, but obsessing over a particular number is only going to upset y'all (if he gets above that).

I'm not too concerned about his poor play in international games since his role will be far more reduced on the Spurs. Particularly on the offensive side of the court.

[Pauleta14]

No idea why some of you expect Sochan to shine more in Europe than in the NBA tbh...

Considering his strengths and limitations, the NBA is the best context for him with lower BBIQ needed, less shooting and passing abilities required as well

Sochan mostly shines with spacing and he'll soon be a liability for his national team who'll have no other choice but hiding him in the corner (nothing to do with politics).

If he didn't show off his famously practiced 3 during an exhibition game I'm not expecting him to suddenly shoot them when the pressure elevates.

[DAF86]

Straw man arguments. The argument is constantly changing and drawn out from the original preface. NBA players would dominate in the summer league if the team revolved around them. Very simple take yet it gets spurn into personal agendas.

When has it ever changed? :lol You and a few others said Sochan would be a volume scorer in Summer League, the rest of us told you he wouldn't. You can agree or disagree but the argument never changed, tbh

[DAF86]

I have no idea who anybody's talking about, but the takes that Summer League is some phenomenal basketball world where established NBA players couldn't dominate pretty easily is certainly a take. It's not just Sochan, anyone who is a good NBA player would rip the SL. That's why they don't play there. But you guys really, really like defending Summer League for some reason.

Sochan isn't on the NBA because of his scoring, he's on the NBA because of his defense, his connecting play and his physical attributes. He doesn't have the skill-set to be a high volume scorer at any level of semi-professional basketball. Him being good enough to be a rotation player on the NBA doesn't necessarily mean he can go to Summer League and dominate by scoring in bunches. That's just not part of his game. Or do you really think Ben Wallace would have turned into Shaq in Summer League? That's not how basketball works.

Sochan in this year's Spurs SL team wouldn't have scored more than Jones-García despite the former being the better NBA player. Any sensible NBA fan realizes that.

[TimDunkem]

With Malaki & Blake gone that leaves Jeremy, Devin & Keldon as the new ST "whipping boys," sadly.
So disingenuous. Those 3 have always sucked.

[LeBowen]

Sochan isn't on the NBA because of his scoring, he's on the NBA because of his defense, his connecting play and his physical attributes.

Too bad for him that non-shooters on perimeter positions aren't a thing on serious playoff rosters anymore.
He'll either improve his shot to the level of not being dared to shoot or get traded. Even if he was the best defender in the league it wouldn't help him if he can't shoot.
Same goes for elite shooters who are traffic cones on defense.

[The Truth #6]

His value/contract realistically is around Luke Kornet in my opinion. l doubt his agent would let that happen. His contract will be a real test for Brian Wright imo. I like him and hate to accept he didn't hit his draft day potential but that's where we are.

[Jordan Jackson]

https://youtu.be/xFVaEuMdE9E?si=zIDnfzrhTJLTsQrD

I think the Spurs have broken that fanbase emotionally and psychologically lol

[Spurs Brazil]

https://x.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1954317703939764636

[scott]

https://youtu.be/xFVaEuMdE9E?si=zIDnfzrhTJLTsQrD

I think the Spurs have broken that fanbase emotionally and psychologically lol

You know Scott Perry... it's going to be really difficult for us to part with Sochan for anything less than two unprotected FRPs, and even then I'm not sure we can get there... you're really twisting our arm here...

[Spurs Brazil]

https://x.com/matbabiarz/status/1954484445299269751

[Splits]

Says a lot he hasn't signed an extension yet. Anything more than 3/$30m is an overpay.

[mystargtr34]

lol that smells like either pulling out due to contract negotiations or he was cut and it’s a cover

[exstatic]

lol that smells like either pulling out due to contract negotiations or he was cut and it’s a cover

Or, maybe,he actually has a calf issue.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Says a lot he hasn't signed an extension yet.

It really doesn’t. The vast majority of non-max extensions always get done at the last moment in october.

[LeBowen]

Calf injury sustained from taking too many jumpshots over the summer, tbh.

[Leetonidas]

Dude's made of glass just like Vassell sadly

[ambchang]

Really concerning that a calf issue is lingering for so long, especially for a guy who depends on constant movement and energy. OTOH hope his dookie was in that game vs Senegal was due to his injury, which is something that could be fixed long term.

[TekXX]

Hmm, he doesn't look polish.

[Spurs Brazil]

https://x.com/matbabiarz/status/1954567750136832238

[Spurs Brazil]

https://x.com/matbabiarz/status/1954485897094676887

[NASpurs]

All those IG videos took a toll on his calf.

[KobesAchilles]

Dude has missed already missed a season of basketball with his injuries. I’m offering the Kornet deal as his max

[exstatic]

It really doesn’t. The vast majority of non-max extensions always get done at the last moment in october.

Yeah, Spurs history usually shows that the deal gets signed in October, a day or a few days before the rookie extension cut off.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

I’d rather have Bryant getting his minutes off the bench anyway. Sochan sucks

[spursistan]

Said it before, this guy is the biggest false image on the team. All he does is snippets and tidbits of “putting work” on social media mixed up with some trolling, but when it comes to making concrete contributions to winning on the basketball court, even for his country, he is nowhere to be found: Flawed, one-dimensional and made of glass.

Championship teams, or aspiring ones, make tough and unsentimental decisions along the way. And Brian Wright would be undoing all the goodwill he built up the last few years by handing considerable money to Sochan just because he is a quirky character. Carter Bryant will be there to kick him down the team hierarchy probably as soon as early next season when the former is still nursing his calf.

[Pauleta14]

I know it won't happen but Sochan shouldn't be extended, period. Even at a "friendly" price

Places are limited and I'd rather give his PT to other players, starting with Bryant.

But PATFO will give a "family deal", it's written smh

[scott]

From Sochan's POV, this is a huge blow for him. He was entering a "make or break" season with tens of millions on the line. If he had a big Eurocup and pre-season/season-start, I could have seen a healthy extension coming his way... but this derails all of that. If this calf injury lingers into the season, I could see him having to simply accept playing on the QO next year and rolling the dice on UFA in the summer of 2027.

I sure as fuck hope I'm right about this... but I don't think Wright is going to hand Sochan a charity contract. The stakes are raised and I think the FO has proven to be more shrewd than that as of late. I think the Keldon contract was right-place-right-time scenario for him, where the team needed to make the salary floor and Keldon was showing progress and promise as a scorer. I think the FO probably has some buyer's remorse on Devin's deal and have learned from that mistake.

At least that's what I'm hoping. If I'm Wright, there is no way I'm offering more than 3/30 at this point, and even then that is a little generous. Right now Sochan's still a guy who has a lot to prove but now he's injured yet again with the kind of injury that can potentially linger into the season and nag throughout. On top of that, Carter Bryant is lingering, showing promise in the things that are Sochan's strong suit (man defense) and the areas where Jeremy has faltered (shooting).

For Sochan's camp, this has got to be viewed as an unmitigated disaster.

[KobesAchilles]

From Sochan's POV, this is a huge blow for him. He was entering a "make or break" season with tens of millions on the line. If he had a big Eurocup and pre-season/season-start, I could have seen a healthy extension coming his way... but this derails all of that. If this calf injury lingers into the season, I could see him having to simply accept playing on the QO next year and rolling the dice on UFA in the summer of 2027.

I sure as fuck hope I'm right about this... but I don't think Wright is going to hand Sochan a charity contract. The stakes are raised and I think the FO has proven to be more shrew than that as of late. I think the Keldon contract was right-place-right-time scenario for him, where the team needed to make the salary floor and Keldon was showing progress and promise as a scorer. I think the FO probably has some buyer's remorse on Devin's deal and have learned from that mistake.

At least that's what I'm hoping. If I'm Wright, there is no way I'm offering more than 3/30 at this point, and even then that is a little generous. Right now Sochan's still a guy who has a lot to prove but now he's injured yet again with the kind of injury that can potentially linger into the season and nag throughout. On top of that, Carter Bryant is lingering, showing promise in the things that are Sochan's strong suit (man defense) and the areas where Jeremy has faltered (shooting).

For Sochan's camp, this has got to be viewed as an unmitigated disaster.
Is this the same type of injury that Halliburton had before he tore his Achilles? Bc I am worried about Sochan and that leg of his. I believe he has had this same injury for over a year now. That’s definitely not a good sign going forward.

For Sochan and his camp, there are two ways to look at this. A nightmare as you say. I have no idea where the Spurs and Sochan were in negotiations. Maybe there was a 4 year 100 million dollar deal on the way that is now on the back burner.

The second way to look at it is If Sochan really believes that he has improved his jumper and can actually shoot the ball in game then he should take a shorter deal with maybe a player option. Something like 2/30. The Spurs pay him money and if he has a shit season then at least he has another year to fall back on. But if he explodes in the year and shows promise then he can opt out and get a better contract.

But as far as I’m concerned these types of injuries may lead to a championship down the future. Signing him for cheap has to be a prerogative for the Spurs. The only way to win consistently going forward is by having cheap role players that complement your star players. If we extend Sochan for cheap and he improves like a lot of his believers here constantly tell me he has improved then this is great news for the Spurs.

[spurraider21]

Says a lot he hasn't signed an extension yet. Anything more than 3/$30m is an overpay.
spurs have a history of getting these rookie extensions done at or near the deadline, to be fair

[spurraider21]

sochan's 5th year qualifying offer will be somewhere between 9.5 and 10mil, though his cap hold until he signs will be north of 20mil

[scott]

sochan's 5th year qualifying offer will be somewhere between 9.5 and 10mil, though his cap hold until he signs will be north of 20mil

Does the extra cap hold even matter if we’re over the cap (but below the 1st apron) anyway?

[spurraider21]

Does the extra cap hold even matter if we’re over the cap (but below the 1st apron) anyway?
nah cap holds dont matter at all for teams operating above the cap. for teams that have been above the cap for years, you'll find some ancient hilarious cap holds that are there since there hasnt really been any incentive to renounce them

lakers still have cap holds for carmelo anthony and dwight howard :lol

warriors still have them for matt barnes and andrew bogut

but if for whatever reason the spurs wanted to operate below the cap (they wouldnt), its just something to note.

[Truckules]

Is this the same type of injury that Halliburton had before he tore his Achilles? Bc I am worried about Sochan and that leg of his. I believe he has had this same injury for over a year now. That’s definitely not a good sign going forward.

We don't know the extent of either injury, but yes, Haliburton had a hamstring injury prior to tearing his Achilles. I believe there was at least one other player who tore their Achilles last season after having a hamstring injury which is probably why the decision to shut him down was made.

Sochan's never been listed as out due to a hamstring before, but he's had other minor lower body injuries. So far, there's been nothing to warrant concern that he has persistent medical issues. My guess is both the Spurs and Jeremy think this upcoming season is important for him so they decided to play it as safe as possible.

[scott]

We don't know the extent of either injury, but yes, Haliburton had a hamstring injury prior to tearing his Achilles. I believe there was at least one other player who tore their Achilles last season after having a hamstring injury which is probably why the decision to shut him down was made.

Sochan's never been listed as out due to a hamstring before, but he's had other minor lower body injuries. So far, there's been nothing to warrant concern that he has persistent medical issues. My guess is both the Spurs and Jeremy think this upcoming season is important for him so they decided to play it as safe as possible.

I believe Jeremy is currently diagnosed with a calf injury, not a hamstring injury.

[tbdog]

I think NBA teams will be more careful with any leg injuries because Achilles tears seem to be happening more often. Calf and ankle issues can be early warning signs, so teams will likely slow down ramp-ups, limit minutes, and rest players on back-to-backs. It might be annoying now, but it’s better than risking an Achilles tear.

[rogcl1]

We don't know the extent of either injury, but yes, Haliburton had a hamstring injury prior to tearing his Achilles. I believe there was at least one other player who tore their Achilles last season after having a hamstring injury which is probably why the decision to shut him down was made.

Sochan's never been listed as out due to a hamstring before, but he's had other minor lower body injuries. So far, there's been nothing to warrant concern that he has persistent medical issues. My guess is both the Spurs and Jeremy think this upcoming season is important for him so they decided to play it as safe as possible.

Halliburton had a calf strain in game 5. Sochan also has a calf injury.

[itzsoweezee]

Halliburton had a calf strain in game 5. Sochan also has a calf injury.
Yup. Calf injuries are scary. Durant also had one before his Achilles tear. They need to be taken very sexually

[ismael-robert]

Yup. Calf injuries are scary. Durant also had one before his Achilles tear. They need to be taken very sexually

Uhhh typo or u got Sochan a Lil too much on ur mind

[itzsoweezee]

Uhhh typo or u got Sochan a Lil too much on ur mind

lol. I’ll stand by it. It’s a very *tender* muscle

[Rocalcio]

We don't know the extent of either injury, but yes, Haliburton had a hamstring injury prior to tearing his Achilles. I believe there was at least one other player who tore their Achilles last season after having a hamstring injury which is probably why the decision to shut him down was made.

Sochan's never been listed as out due to a hamstring before, but he's had other minor lower body injuries. So far, there's been nothing to warrant concern that he has persistent medical issues. My guess is both the Spurs and Jeremy think this upcoming season is important for him so they decided to play it as safe as possible.

This.

Apparently Spurs FO has been pushing Sochan to leave his national team so he could heal properly, despite his injury not being too serious, they are worrying it could lead to an achille issue.

This has been reported in a French website, which quoted this polish link : https://www.sport.pl/koszykowka/7,64947,32167606,polski-jordan-zachwycil-reprezentacja-czekala-na-takiego-zawodnika.html#s=SNO_Img_1

[Mnky]

From Sochan's POV, this is a huge blow for him. He was entering a "make or break" season with tens of millions on the line. If he had a big Eurocup and pre-season/season-start, I could have seen a healthy extension coming his way... but this derails all of that. If this calf injury lingers into the season, I could see him having to simply accept playing on the QO next year and rolling the dice on UFA in the summer of 2027.

I sure as fuck hope I'm right about this... but I don't think Wright is going to hand Sochan a charity contract. The stakes are raised and I think the FO has proven to be more shrew than that as of late. I think the Keldon contract was right-place-right-time scenario for him, where the team needed to make the salary floor and Keldon was showing progress and promise as a scorer. I think the FO probably has some buyer's remorse on Devin's deal and have learned from that mistake.

At least that's what I'm hoping. If I'm Wright, there is no way I'm offering more than 3/30 at this point, and even then that is a little generous. Right now Sochan's still a guy who has a lot to prove but now he's injured yet again with the kind of injury that can potentially linger into the season and nag throughout. On top of that, Carter Bryant is lingering, showing promise in the things that are Sochan's strong suit (man defense) and the areas where Jeremy has faltered (shooting).

For Sochan's camp, this has got to be viewed as an unmitigated disaster.

When you watch film from his first year until this past year, you can tell physically his body has taken a toll as far as vertical and explosive movement. He has not been able to stay healthy. Another season long lingering injury is definitely a worse case scenario for him this year with the contract coming up. Guy can't grow if he can't ever play healthy. Hard to commit to so many question marks surrounded by health concerns. Outside of the Spurs having the insider view and faith on things, tough to imagine this one working out for him.

[cutewizard]

The three friends rapidly becoming irrelevant

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Sochan faking injury to suppress trade value?

[spurraider21]

Sochan faking injury to suppress trade value?
or sabotaging his hopes at securing a nice extension?

[Raven]

i'm getting very worried about him and his injuries tbh.

[cutewizard]

its trading time

Jaylen is waiting

[Obstructed_View]

I am a huge Baylor fan and was super excited to get Jeremy. Now I understand why Scott Drew didn't start him.

It's time to move on.

[SupremeGuy]

Man, as much as I think shitting on Sochan is funny; he's kind of been given a raw deal by the Spurs.

Senile/political poop was clearly functioning as well as the autopen administration.

Let Mitch cook.

I'm rooting for him.

[Dverde]

They did a re-draft of Sochan’s draft class on Windhorst’s podcast and no one picked Jeremy.

[J_Paco]

When you watch film from his first year until this past year, you can tell physically his body has taken a toll as far as vertical and explosive movement. He has not been able to stay healthy. Another season long lingering injury is definitely a worse case scenario for him this year with the contract coming up. Guy can't grow if he can't ever play healthy. Hard to commit to so many question marks surrounded by health concerns. Outside of the Spurs having the insider view and faith on things, tough to imagine this one working out for him.

Yeah, I was saying that earlier in the thread about this past season.

He looked better by the end of the season, but he definitely seems to be lacking the "pop" or verticality/explosiveness he had his rookie season.

Maybe it's not resting enough during the off-season, his body still adjusting to the NBA grind, or something else? Still, I like his skill set even with the issues of a lack of an offensive game or perimeter shooting.

[Jordan Jackson]

They did a re-draft of Sochan’s draft class on Windhorst’s podcast and no one picked Jeremy.

Yup. Some on this board will continue to do mental gymnastics to justify the pick. But so far - it’s not looking good.


https://youtu.be/1VFDTfiPppY?si=-tQzx9wjvTkGeHQd

[dn0774]

Admittedly I am perhaps not a creative enough basketball mind, but I have such a hard time envisioning Sochan playing a significant role (ie starting or featured bench guy) with anything near the current skill set he possesses for a winning team in 2025. His presence is such a detriment to a teams offense that he would have to be generationally good on the defensive end (Draymond level) to make the juice worth the squeeze.

I hope he can figure it out on offense a bit ala Aaron Gordon, but Sochan doesn't grade out to be as athletic as Gordon (though their shooting signals thru the first 3 seasons are very similar).

[LeBowen]

Honestly, not much value was lost as long as he doesn't get an extension this summer.
We had a garbage roster, took a risk on a theoretical player, it failed which was the most likely outcome. Not that big of a deal considering all the value we got in the following drafts.
But we can't enter sunk cost fallacy territory and offer him an extension.

[KobesAchilles]

Admittedly I am perhaps not a creative enough basketball mind, but I have such a hard time envisioning Sochan playing a significant role (ie starting or featured bench guy) with anything near the current skill set he possesses for a winning team in 2025. His presence is such a detriment to a teams offense that he would have to be generationally good on the defensive end (Draymond level) to make the juice worth the squeeze.

I hope he can figure it out on offense a bit ala Aaron Gordon, but Sochan doesn't grade out to be as athletic as Gordon (though their shooting signals thru the first 3 seasons are very similar).
Aaron Gordon parked his ass in the corner and learned how to shoot. Meanwhile Sochan practiced fade away 3 pointers bc they look cool. The best we can hope for is to use him his typical 20 minutes a game next year on the bench.

[spurraider21]

Aaron Gordon parked his ass in the corner and learned how to shoot. Meanwhile Sochan practiced fade away 3 pointers bc they look cool. The best we can hope for is to use him his typical 20 minutes a game next year on the bench.
in the last 3 seasons (which includes the nuggets title run), gordon has attempted 2.5 threes per game and has made 36% of them. 3's have accounted for 24.5% of his total FGA. and only 35% of Gordon's 3PA have come from the corner

in his 3 year career sochan has attempted 2.5 threes per game as well, but he only makes 29% of them. they have accounted for 25.2% of sochan's FGA. and only about 31% of sochan's 3PA are from the corner

their 3pt shot diet is actually remarkably similar, gordon just makes them more. if you look at gordon's first 6 seasons he was making about 32% of his 3's

[KobesAchilles]

in the last 3 seasons (which includes the nuggets title run), gordon has attempted 2.5 threes per game and has made 36% of them. 3's have accounted for 24.5% of his total FGA. and only 35% of Gordon's 3PA have come from the corner

in his 3 year career sochan has attempted 2.5 threes per game as well, but he only makes 29% of them. they have accounted for 25.2% of sochan's FGA. and only about 31% of sochan's 3PA are from the corner

their 3pt shot diet is actually remarkably similar, gordon just makes them more. if you look at gordon's first 6 seasons he was making about 32% of his 3's
He has some crazy stat where he shot like 50% from the left corner and 25-30% from everywhere else. He has a sweet spot where he just learned how to shoot from and he does it at a high clip. But tbh I don’t see where this Aaron Gordon comparison even came to fruition. They play nothing alike. Gordon was winning dunk contests and showing off his athleticism while Sochan isn’t that good of an athlete at all.

[scott]

They did a re-draft of Sochan’s draft class on Windhorst’s podcast and no one picked Jeremy.

Dang, I'm a borderline Sochan hater, and that's even worse than I would have thought :lol

[Mnky]

Yeah, I was saying that earlier in the thread about this past season.

He looked better by the end of the season, but he definitely seems to be lacking the "pop" or verticality/explosiveness he had his rookie season.

Maybe it's not resting enough during the off-season, his body still adjusting to the NBA grind, or something else? Still, I like his skill set even with the issues of a lack of an offensive game or perimeter shooting.

He's definitely a player you want in the tool box for the right price.

[LeBowen]

But tbh I don’t see where this Aaron Gordon comparison even came to fruition.

There's always a post. ;)


Because he’s shot better than Aaron Gordon at this point in their respective careers? We don’t need him to be Steph Curry. If he can shoot 35-36% on 5 attempt,that’s fine. He’s shot 31% the last two years, higher than any year ofGordon’s first three. You howling hyenas will probably get your way, they’ll trade him, and he’ll go be some other team’s Aaron Gordon, instead of being ours, OKC if we’re really unlucky. He’d be a thorn in Wemby’s side for a decade.

[C-Dub]

Some people here has said in the past that Pop is mostly at fault for Sochan's short comings and growth for playing him out of position at PG and Center sometimes, but I've felt all along that Pop was trying to find some type of value out of Sochan because PATFO new he was not cut out to be who they thought he would be at PF position next to Wemby. Unfortunately, Sochan has a low IQ when it comes to passing and court awareness to become an initiator of the offense and he lacks the physical tools and athletic abilities to gaurd the Center position and get rebounds. Pop was only trying to give him the chance to show his worth and it didn't work out.

[ginobilized]

I truly hope that Sochan's role is limited and that he can learn to maximize it.
At most, I see him as a middling rotational player who brings some physicality, defensive pressure and swagger when needed.
He's a real wild card. Health might be part of that. The things I see with him that are the most troubling are his low basketball IQ and his odd demeanor.
There are times when his smiley affect seems really off with what's going on in a game. His role and identity seem unformed. The new coaching staff might help mold him, but, as he is now, I don't see a player of decent value. Losing his Power of Friendship buddies needs to wake him the fuck up. The coaches need to give him the correct role to succeed and a short leash when he is not with the program.

[KobesAchilles]

Some people here has said in the past that Pop is mostly at fault for Sochan's short comings and growth for playing him out of position at PG and Center sometimes, but I've felt all along that Pop was trying to find some type of value out of Sochan because PATFO new he was not cut out to be who they thought he would be at PF position next to Wemby. Unfortunately, Sochan has a low IQ when it comes to passing and court awareness to become an initiator of the offense and he lacks the physical tools and athletic abilities to gaurd the Center position and get rebounds. Pop was only trying to give him the chance to show his worth and it didn't work out.
Yeah the downside to drafting bench players who are 19 is that they have no idea how to play basketball. Now you hope they have the mental capacity to learn but it’s not a guarantee. Tbh if I’m the Spurs I would just have a film study as part of my draft process. The Spurs give them a quiz and see what their answers are. Bc we have some low IQ players on our team and I’m not sure if that’s coaching, if it’s player development, if it’s the players themselves that are stupid, but there’s no doubt that we drafted morons.

I can only pray that Bryant learns the game better than his predecessors. C’mon Sweeney!

[Pauleta14]

Some people here has said in the past that Pop is mostly at fault for Sochan's short comings and growth for playing him out of position at PG and Center sometimes, but I've felt all along that Pop was trying to find some type of value out of Sochan because PATFO new he was not cut out to be who they thought he would be at PF position next to Wemby. Unfortunately, Sochan has a low IQ when it comes to passing and court awareness to become an initiator of the offense and he lacks the physical tools and athletic abilities to gaurd the Center position and get rebounds. Pop was only trying to give him the chance to show his worth and it didn't work out.

Interesting speculation tbh, it makes sense considering the stupid bet they've done in recent past with Prime or Bryne

I've been emphasizing on Sochan numerous limitations when most Spurs fans have had an obsession with his 3pt shooting as if it'd change everything but his low BBIQ, apparent struggle to stay focus for extended periods or poor fundamentals limiting his passing or self shot creation around the rim, are far bigger issues long term and so incompatible with the type of high IQ, high passing, high versatility, type of game that comes with having Wemby.

[baseline bum]

Man, as much as I think shitting on Sochan is funny; he's kind of been given a raw deal by the Spurs.

Senile/political poop was clearly functioning as well as the autopen administration.

Let Mitch cook.

I'm rooting for him.

Meh if you're so soft that playing 15-20 games of your career at PG ruins your career trajectory you weren't going anywhere anyways.

[Obstructed_View]

Some people here has said in the past that Pop is mostly at fault for Sochan's short comings and growth for playing him out of position at PG and Center sometimes, but I've felt all along that Pop was trying to find some type of value out of Sochan because PATFO new he was not cut out to be who they thought he would be at PF position next to Wemby. Unfortunately, Sochan has a low IQ when it comes to passing and court awareness to become an initiator of the offense and he lacks the physical tools and athletic abilities to gaurd the Center position and get rebounds. Pop was only trying to give him the chance to show his worth and it didn't work out.
Starting to think now that Pop was trying to get Jeremy invested enough to give full effort. He strikes me as a guy who skates by on his talent and spends more time pretending to practice than actually practicing.

[SupremeGuy]

Meh if you're so soft that playing 15-20 games of your career at PG ruins your career trajectory you weren't going anywhere anyways.I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but he's what? 23? If he were in his late 20s then yeah.

His contract future really depends on how the new guys play.

Like I said, let fucking Mitch cook.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

https://www.si.com/nba/spurs/news/12-year-nba-veteran-s-advice-to-jeremy-sochan-playing-with-victor-wembanyama-01k2qqapt94r

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Tldr gortat says sochan needs to shoot better

[KobesAchilles]

Tldr gortat says sochan needs to shoot better
Someone needs to show Gortat Sochans IG workout clip. Look at the elbow, Sochan already has already fixed his shot. Duh

[scott]

“His role for the Spurs has diminished lately," former NBA center Marcin Gortat said, speaking on Sochan. (https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-marcin-gortat-offers-jeremy-sochan-crucial-advice-as-he-faces-a-diminished-role-on-wembanyama-led-spurs/) "He plays some minutes at the five; he comes off the bench. Sometimes he’s more of a forward. On the other night(s, he) plays a lot in the pick and roll."

The Polish forward may see that as a positive of his game — it makes him versatile. Gortat doesn't share the same sentiment.
"There are no set plays for him," he said, "because he’s not a ‘go-to guy’ for the Spurs ... his role is still not set."

Some Spurs fans see this as a positive for Sochan... but I agree with Gortat, it's more of a sign of a guy without a role. People always talk about Sochan's unique skill set... but unique does not always equal useful.

[Splits]

Vecceni discusses Sochan's extension, future here:


http://www.youtube.com/live/lIwRNNfoJM8?si=hyHqG9puVBVVMDRg

tldr; good trade candidate since questionable fit on Spurs, guesses extension would be in $16-24m/year range

[Pauleta14]

Just listened to Venceni's podcast as well

As usual they overrate Sochan (lmao at the 18-22M extension), I can't blame them, 30 teams to analyze and the Spurs, especially without Wemby, are probably among the teams they watch the least.

Trading Sochan makes a lot of sense tho with Carter on the roster but I don't believe PATFO will admit its failure by trading him nor that there would be a lot of interest in the league for a non shooter with poor fundamentals and often injured.

Best option imo is to give him one last shot this season and let him walk if he doesn't show massive improvements.

[spurraider21]

they also mention the kings as a fit for him. if we've learned anything recently, its that trading with the kings tends to be good business

[ambchang]

It seems like the Spurstalk chosen whipping boy this year is Sochan, as his seemingly lack of improvement in outside shooting and upcoming possible extension are becoming a lightening rod of his value as a player.

While many of his criticisms are valid (shooting mostly, questionable ball handling and ability as a creator), I am still unclear as to what some of the other issues are, namely:
Basketball IQ
Sure he isn't the next Larry Bird, or even Boris Diaw, but I am not sure what people are expecting here. Diaw wasn't a high IQ player when he was a younger player and was pretty bad when he was with the Hawks. he had a huge jump when he moved to the Suns and that's when his offence came around. He gets compared to Aaron Gordan as a stretch goal for as a finished product, and Aaron Gordan has NEVER been considered a high IQ player, even though I would say Gordan is significantly more athletic. Offensively, Draymond didn't come to his own until his forth season, at age 25. I am not saying Sochan will ever have that level of basketball IQ either offensively or defensively, but that's OK. The Spurs are not looking for a superstar at every level, we are looking at a defensive specialists who can knock down (or at least take) an occasional open three.

Defence
This one just got me scratching my head. Sochan, but most measures, is a good defender. He is highly versatile, able to guard anyone from 1 to smaller 4s.
Of the 459 players in the league who defended more than 5FGA/GM in the restricted area, Sochan ranked 59th in opponent FG% at 63.2, same as Isaiah Joe, Jaren Jackson Jr, Jrue Holiday, Dort and some other elite defenders. For reference, Wemby ranked 39th at 62.3%. (4th on the team, 3rd for regulars behind Wemby and Champaigne).
Of 396 players in the league who defended more than 5FGA/GM in the non-restricted paint area, Sochan ranked 216 (pretty meh I have to say). For reference, Wemby is right above Holmgren at 84. (7th on the team, 4th for the regulars behind Wemby, Champagnie, and Castle).
Of 303 players in the league who defended more than 3FGA/GM from mid range, Sochan ranked 199. Riley Minix ranked number 1 in this at 25%, but something about sample size :lol. (6th on the team, 3rd for the regulars behind Wemby and Fox)
Of 382 players in the league who defended more than 3FGA/GM from corner 3s, Sochan ranked 66 (3rd worst on the team, so we defended the corner threes quite well as a team).
And finally, of the 530 players who defended more than 3FGA/GM from the above the break 3 zone, Sochan ranked 281 (Yikes). But it appears to be more of a team issue as he is actually 6th on the team, and best in terms of players getting meaningful minutes (Spurs players better than him were Minix, Bassey, Branham [WTF?], Mamu, and Wesley).
So other than mid range, Sochan is one of the better defenders in all zones for the team, and 87th percentile in the restricted area and 83rd percentile on corner threes. He's pretty meh in non-restricted paint area (45th), midrange (34th) and above the break three (47th%) but by no means is he horrible in any of them.

He is not in the Draymond zone of defender, or even close to it, but on this team, he is clearly one of the best defenders.

Passing
As a pick and roll ball handler, Sochan is surprisingly 82nd percentile in the league according to NBA advanced stats. To be fair, I am not sure what the percentile means but it appears to be points per possession. Note the sample size is quite small as he only has 0.5 possessions per game as a handler with only 4.3% frequency.

Finishing
As a pick and roll finisher, he is actually 73rd %tile in the league. The sample size is actually pretty good too at 1.6 possessions per game, which is good for 52 out of 267 players (cut off is for players with minimum of 10 mins/game and 10 possessions throughout the season).

[spurraider21]

if he's a good player then why dont he play good

[scott]

Good food for thought ambchang and I always appreciate some data backing up the discussion.

From my POV on the points you mentioned:

BBIQ - this is where I just don't see it for Sochan, but others seem to (though plenty seem to see it more like I do). He tends to do things that just don't make any sense at any level of basketball. We'll see him dribble into the paint with nowhere to go, turn his back to the basket like he's expecting to have collapsed the D and be able to find a shooter standing wide open at the 3 point line. When that doesn't materialize he either dribbles out and resets or makes a bail out pass. Either way, it completely disrupts the flow of the possession. He seems to do this several times per game.

This alone isn't some unforgiveable shortcoming, but it's indicative of what seems (to me at least) to have a complete lack of understanding of offensive fundamentals. Sometimes he's a complete zero on offense, other times he's actively a negative force on the offensive end. He's effective as a dunker/cutter/roller but that's it. If he isn't doing one of those things, he's just in the way or providing the defense an opportunity to sag off and play 5 on 4.

Defense - here is a case where I think your stats are a bit misleading. I think Sochan is a much better defender than your stats suggest. There is a probably a bit of sample bias at play here, as Sochan is drawing tougher matchups and thus is going to give up a higher oppFG% because he's going against the opposing team's best scorer. He seems to have mental lapses from time to time, but I'm willing to chalk that up to youth. Overall, he's a very good 1v1 defender, IMO. I wouldn't dare make an argument otherwise.

Passing - that's some interesting data you brought. With Fox, Castle and Harper now on the team, however, I wonder how much Sochan's PnR ballhandling is going to matter going forward? Still a nice skill to have, but I'd much rather have one of those guys running the PnR. I don't know that his passing is a pro or a con at this point... but it kind of goes with the BBIQ discussion. He certainly isn't a playmaker.

Finishing - he's gotten better, no doubt about it. I posted this previously, but his shot diet heavily skews towards shots 0-3 ft from the basket (55% of his shots last season, compared to 34% the prior two seasons). This is the cause of his drastically improved FG% (and he's actually stagnated or gotten worse at shooting from every other distance). Sochan shot .707 from 0-3 feet, which sounds great but is only a little bit above the league average of .696. (Wemby was .809, and CP3 was .800, as an example). With that said, he has gotten much better here. His first two seasons were .665 and .659.

To me, absent a huge leap from Sochan, I have a hard time seeing him as anything more than a bench defensive specialist. I don't think there is anything wrong with this. IMO, that's all Lu Dort would be if he couldn't shoot. It's what Alex Caruso is (and he can shoot).

[spurraider21]

i think the reason Sochan gets the "BBIQ and passing" talk still comes from his draft profile/scouting report when his passing was one of the big selling points for him, and why people thought he had draymond-lite potential.

the reality is, it hasnt really borne out in the NBA. and even if he theoretically is capable of making good passes, either with anticipation or good placement, he doesnt have the court awareness to execute them anyway. he still dribbles with his head down too often and doesnt seem to have a plan. and its not like we have much of a track record of him making quick decisions, ie in the short roll, or making a crisp extra pass off a cut

his man to man defense, particularly against wings, is quite good. however, he doesnt offer anything by way of rim protection, and generally speaking doesnt stand out as a help defender. and he certainly doesnt play SG/SF on offense, so you are having to cross match with him basically being a PF/C on one end, and a SF on the other end. its why its hard to make lineups work, and as the spurs dont have guards who are high end shooters, virtually impossible

[LeBowen]

BBIQ - this is where I just don't see it for Sochan, but others seem to (though plenty seem to see it more like I do). He tends to do things that just don't make any sense at any level of basketball. We'll see him dribble into the paint with nowhere to go, turn his back to the basket like he's expecting to have collapsed the D and be able to find a shooter standing wide open at the 3 point line. When that doesn't materialize he either dribbles out and resets or makes a bail out pass. Either way, it completely disrupts the flow of the possession. He seems to do this several times per game.

This alone isn't some unforgiveable shortcoming, but it's indicative of what seems (to me at least) to have a complete lack of understanding of offensive fundamentals. Sometimes he's a complete zero on offense, other times he's actively a negative force on the offensive end. He's effective as a dunker/cutter/roller but that's it. If he isn't doing one of those things, he's just in the way or providing the defense an opportunity to sag off and play 5 on 4.



Spot on.
Basketball has two types of players who can make positive contribution as ballhandlers:
A) Natural playmakers who don't even need to think about what's going on and what's going to happen next, they just make decisions on the fly.
B) Forcibly (maybe not the right word, but whatever) developed playmakers who aren't naturals and therefore they just go with the set play knowing their next 3 actions before they even make them because they're incapable of processing what's going on on the fly.

Jeremy is the B type that plays like A type with the ball.
Opponents scheme against him by baiting him to dribble into the paint because it's really to stop and then he just fucks up because he can't make the right decision. He should never be dribbling the ball into the paint unless he has a big mismatch because he has no post moves, either. I'd like for someone to find more than a handful of situations where Jeremy finished over someone with similar size, it just doesn't happen.




Finishing - he's gotten better, no doubt about it. I posted this previously, but his shot diet heavily skews towards shots 0-3 ft from the basket (55% of his shots last season, compared to 34% the prior two seasons). This is the cause of his drastically improved FG% (and he's actually stagnated or gotten worse at shooting from every other distance). Sochan shot .707 from 0-3 feet, which sounds great but is only a little bit above the league average of .696. (Wemby was .809, and CP3 was .800, as an example). With that said, he has gotten much better here. His first two seasons were .665 and .659.


https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shots-dash?SeasonType=Regular+Season
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shooting

Take away all the easy baskets and his finishing is subpar. The only actually good contribution he makes on offense is being a good offensive rebounder and a threat opponents need to always have in mind when a miss happens.

[scott]

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shots-dash?SeasonType=Regular+Season
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shooting

Take away all the easy baskets and his finishing is subpar. The only actually good contribution he makes on offense is being a good offensive rebounder and a threat opponents need to always have in mind when a miss happens.

Only 59% on layups. I don't know if this is good or bad... but it doesn't sound good. Wonder how it compares to the rest of the league.

[LeBowen]

Only 59% on layups. I don't know if this is good or bad... but it doesn't sound good. Wonder how it compares to the rest of the league.

Above average, but combine it with other variables and it looks way worse.
74% of his layups were assisted.
63% of his FGs were after no dribbles, 15% after 1 dribble.
71% were within 2 seconds of receiving the ball.

He's a finisher, but how many of those easy baskets come at an expense of everyone else being defended tighter because Jeremy can't shoot or create for himself?
As in opponents will gladly give up a couple of easy layups to Jeremy who's the least threatening player on offense if it means they can have better contests on everyone else in 10 other possessions.

For Jeremy to become a positive on offense, the number of easy layups has to be enough to make it not worth it for the opponetns to sag off him.
Or he can just lear to shoot.

[exstatic]

if he's a good player then why dont he play good

Perhaps the expectations are high for a guy who learned basketball in England from his mom, and didn’t start on his college team. Sochan was always a big swing, a raw prospect, and those normally take longer to cook.

[mystargtr34]

At this point is the consensus that the Spurs don’t offer Jeremy a deal this summer (unless it’s a lowball offer) and let him play out his fourth season and then make a decision on the contract offer next summer?

I don’t see any other scenario happening.

[ambchang]

Most of our points are pretty much aligned, I think.

I actually don't think Sochan is some sort of high IQ, defensive savant and the second coming of Dennis Rodman and Draymond Green's lovechild, sprinkled with Diaw's offensive DNA, I think he is a good 1 on 1 defensive player (with the potential to be an elite perimeter defender), average team defender, who is a negative on offence.

What I think I defer from most views are:
1) I believe a title contender does not require the top 7 or 8 players to be flawless basketball players. Or in other words, someone who is flawed, even as badly flawed as Sochan on offence, can be a contributor to a title team; and
2) I think this type of perimeter defender, in the right system, could be a very valuable prototype.

Basically, my view is that we all see Sochan in more or less the same light, it's just that our expectations of the role on the Spurs is different.

If Sochan can end up being someone like Caruso or Dort, he would be quite valuable to winning teams.

In terms of bball IQ, again, I believe the Spurs do not need everyone to be a creator. The constant reference to the beautiful game is pretty unrealistic, to be honest. How many teams in the history of the league can play that type of offence? I have the 2014 Spurs, the 1973 Knicks, the 1986 Celtics, and the Walton Blazers, that's it. And that Spurs team played that way because the big three were declining and can no longer single-handedly carry a championship offence, it was more out of necessity than anything.

The Spurs now have Wemby, Fox, and to an extent Harper and Castle. These guys can score and create if need be, Wemby and Fox can be dominant offensive forces (not championship winning types like the Duncans, Hakeems, Shaqs, Lebrons and Dirks yet, but Wemby's game will come), we only need the supporting players like Castle, Champaigne, Barnes, and yes, Sochan, to just finish the plays. They don't have to create, Sochan shouldn't even be driving the ball to the teeth of the defence in the first place. Why was he doing that in the first place? I think it's more a question to the coaching staff, not only was he doing it, but he was doing it multiple times a game! Shouldn't he have had that coached of him at some point? What were the offensive schemes last year? It would be great if someone can tell me because I watched quite a few games and I couldn't figure it out, there are many stretches where the Spurs seems to be playing high level street ball with no actual game plan. Which goes to the point, it is all fine and good if you are an insane talent like Wemby, or even someone like Fox, but when it goes to role players like Sochan, they struggle. Champaigne played worse as the year went on, even everybody's favourite, Mamu, played worse if you looked at the per minute stats and efficiency. I have been trying to make this point over the season, and it's that there were huge issues with coaching because there was no direction and no accountability, it almost looks amateurish at points last year, and I am a huge PATFO supporter. Coaching helps the role players, superstars will be superstars regardless as they are the system, but the coach's job is to fit those role players around that superstar (wemby) by creating a system where the role players can compliment that superstar. To my untrained, couch-coaching eyes, the Spurs didn't have that.

Also, on the point of finishing, I should've been clear, I should have said pick and roll finishing. And yes, great points about him being able to finish because nobody is really guarding him.

[scott]

At this point is the consensus that the Spurs don’t offer Jeremy a deal this summer (unless it’s a lowball offer) and let him play out his fourth season and then make a decision on the contract offer next summer?

I don’t see any other scenario happening.

The Spurs usually don't do rookie extensions until October, so they may still plan to extend him... I think we have come to the consensus opinion you just laid out because it makes sense. We won't know until the extension deadline though (Oct 21)

[scott]

I largely agree with you ambchang, well stated and summarized.

To me the biggest issue is making sure the Spurs don't overpay for whatever Sochan's eventual role is (which is yet to be determined). People are talking about $18-24MM a year and I don't see it. Sochan could end up anywhere from defensive ace as a starter, to even outside of the Top 7-8 guys you mentioned. If he's our 10th man, that doesn't mean he's still not useful... but he needs to paid like a 10th man because we need to start being smart and active cap managers. The days of willy nilly charity contracts because we had no one else to pay is over.

Fortunately, I don't really see a scenario where the Spurs give him that kind of money unless they are simultaneously moving Vassell. There is just no room for it anymore.

Personally, I wouldn't pay him more than Kornet. In my opinion, Korndog is a more useful and valuable player (IMO). If both were FA at the same time, Sochan might get a bigger deal just because he's young and "raw" but there is a good chance he never becomes as good of a player as Korndog... and that's okay. He may also completely surprise us and become our 5th best player. That would be awesome! I just haven't seen anything to make me believe it at this point.

[rascal]

Sochan is a very limited offensive player because he lacks NBA level athleticism. He can't get past defenders on the dribble, he doesn't jump well for his size, he doesn't have a solid shooting form nor a quick release on his shot so no mid range scoring ability.

[ginobilized]

Playing within a structure is going to make or break Sochan on the Spurs, I believe. Maybe the coaches can find some ways to give him the best chance to succeed, which, is their job, basically. I'd wait and see how Sochan adjusts to the new players, coaches and hopefully a defined role. There have been some intriguing glimpses of a pesky defender and overall disruptor in his game. I think he'd be better suited to a specific role than being some sort of Swiss Army knife. He doesn't have the skill for that. Narrowing down his position to 2/5 possibilities might be a good start from the 5/5 we've seen of late. There is only so much that Sochan can do in one off-season, he is who he is. I think it's on the coaches to give him a fighting chance. Point guard and center have been disasters for him, and, rightfully so.

I wonder what OKC or Carlisle would do with him. Would he even see the floor on those teams?

[poopbox]

]Playing within a structure is going to make or break Sochan on the Spurs[/B], I believe. Maybe the coaches can find some ways to give him the best chance to succeed, which, is their job, basically. I'd wait and see how Sochan adjusts to the new players, coaches and hopefully a defined role. There have been some intriguing glimpses of a pesky defender and overall disruptor in his game. I think he'd be better suited to a specific role than being some sort of Swiss Army knife. He doesn't have the skill for that. Narrowing down his position to 2/5 possibilities might be a good start from the 5/5 we've seen of late. There is only so much that Sochan can do in one off-season, he is who he is. I think it's on the coaches to give him a fighting chance. Point guard and center have been disasters for him, and, rightfully so.

I wonder what OKC or Carlisle would do with him. Would he even see the floor on those teams?


Yeah I guess the one not negative thing you can say about Sochan is he has never played on a properly structured good nba team that has a clearly defined superstar and star player to build an offense around like he has now. So I guess we should see what role he gets slotted into and how he performs in it. Not getting my hopes up though.

[ambchang]

Playing within a structure is going to make or break Sochan on the Spurs, I believe. Maybe the coaches can find some ways to give him the best chance to succeed, which, is their job, basically. I'd wait and see how Sochan adjusts to the new players, coaches and hopefully a defined role. There have been some intriguing glimpses of a pesky defender and overall disruptor in his game. I think he'd be better suited to a specific role than being some sort of Swiss Army knife. He doesn't have the skill for that. Narrowing down his position to 2/5 possibilities might be a good start from the 5/5 we've seen of late. There is only so much that Sochan can do in one off-season, he is who he is. I think it's on the coaches to give him a fighting chance. Point guard and center have been disasters for him, and, rightfully so.

I wonder what OKC or Carlisle would do with him. Would he even see the floor on those teams?

Hard to say as it really depends on a player's ability to adapt, change and fit into the role, but when a guy like Lu Dort, who wasn't particularly skill when he first started his career, and then saw just a transformation in his skill level, I believe Sochan can do something similar.

That said, ability to change is often mixed with willingness to work. Some players are more adaptable than others and can adjust their games, some can't no matter how hard they try. I hope Sochan can to a degree as the Spurs did invest a low lottery pick on him.

Even Parker was given instructions to model his game step by step, stop shooting threes, focus on fast breaks first, work on the mid range, then work on involving the teammates, then work on taking over the offence in the paint, the entire change in his game took a decade.

Manu was getting chewed out for his wild plays and had to have that coached out of him (to an extent) over multiple years, and of course Pop just finally relented and understood he had to take the good with the bad, but again, Manu's game changed quite a bit over his decade and a half with the team.

For Sochan, not having a defined, limited role, is the worst thing to happen to him. Most players won't be able to grow in such a situation. Then to have him do things he can't do made the worst situation even worse.

[scott]

Hard to say as it really depends on a player's ability to adapt, change and fit into the role, but when a guy like Lu Dort, who wasn't particularly skill when he first started his career, and then saw just a transformation in his skill level, I believe Sochan can do something similar.

That said, ability to change is often mixed with willingness to work. Some players are more adaptable than others and can adjust their games, some can't no matter how hard they try. I hope Sochan can to a degree as the Spurs did invest a low lottery pick on him.

Even Parker was given instructions to model his game step by step, stop shooting threes, focus on fast breaks first, work on the mid range, then work on involving the teammates, then work on taking over the offence in the paint, the entire change in his game took a decade.

Manu was getting chewed out for his wild plays and had to have that coached out of him (to an extent) over multiple years, and of course Pop just finally relented and understood he had to take the good with the bad, but again, Manu's game changed quite a bit over his decade and a half with the team.

For Sochan, not having a defined, limited role, is the worst thing to happen to him. Most players won't be able to grow in such a situation. Then to have him do things he can't do made the worst situation even worse.

I think what's being described here is one of the biggest costs of tanking, and why when teams exit from tank territory they usually don't bring their former tank commanders along with them (as the Spurs are attempting to do). It's not necessarily Keldon, Devin and Jeremy's fault that they were forged in the fires of ineptitude: a system with no organization or accountability... that ineptitude was "needed" at the time to fulfill the plan... but it's hard to change them after that's how they developed.

The Spurs are trying to go against convention and hope their former tank commanders can be useful winners. Let's see how it works out!

[TeKu]

I think what's being described here is one of the biggest costs of tanking, and why when teams exit from tank territory they usually don't bring their former tank commanders along with them (as the Spurs are attempting to do). It's not necessarily Keldon, Devin and Jeremy's fault that they were forged in the fires of ineptitude: a system with no organization or accountability... that ineptitude was "needed" at the time to fulfill the plan... but it's hard to change them after that's how they developed.

The Spurs are trying to go against convention and hope their former tank commanders can be useful winners. Let's see how it works out!

Maybe it's a factor, but Dort was with the Thunder through their tank years too, found his niche and how to contribute to winning.

Keldon as tank commander yes, but not sure that could ever be applied to Sochan.

I can still squint and see an Aaron Gordon like path for Sochan. With the creation around him this year he has every opportunity to progress towards that. And we need exactly that, so I'd expect him to be given the space, and contract, with that in mind.

[scott]

Maybe it's a factor, but Dort was with the Thunder through their tank years too, found his niche and how to contribute to winning.

Keldon as tank commander yes, but not sure that could ever be applied to Sochan.

I can still squint and see an Aaron Gordon like path for Sochan. With the creation around him this year he has every opportunity to progress towards that. And we need exactly that, so I'd expect him to be given the space, and contract, with that in mind.

The Thunder were a playoff team Dort's rookie year, tanked for 2 years, then were a competitive team again in his 4th year (40 wins). Keldon and Devin were on two weak play-in teams (33 and 34 wins), but I don't think the Thunder's downswing (3 year playoff drought) is quite comparable to ours (6 years and counting)