Spurs Select F Jeremy Sochan with the 9th Pick in the 2022 NBA Draft

[tim_duncan_fan]

I don't have any bones about it and I LOVE a big lineup. I just want something that works. Hopefully, it was/is just a matter of needing to get some games under the belt.

He'll be pressured heavily if it looks like he doesn't handle it well, of course.

[RC_Drunkford]

the problem with a big line up is that team should kill the opponent on the glass. The Spurs are somehow able to do the opposite

[tim_duncan_fan]

the problem with a big line up is that team should kill the opponent on the glass. The Spurs are somehow able to do the opposite

I think that will continue to be a thing, going forward.

Wemby is good at lots of things, it looks like, but everyone has a flaw.

[spurraider21]

Sochan needs to get stronger and be more Diaw/Dray than try to be Simmons.

he was getting scored on when defending 1 on 1 near the rim

[R. DeMurre]

Wemby's rebounding numbers look like they'll be an easy fix-- he tends to leak out on shot attempts looking for fast break opportunities, like a guard. If Pop tells him to crash the boards instead of leaking out, it's problem solved. Weird habit for a 7'5" guy to have, but then he's pretty unstoppable on fast breaks, so it's understandable for a young guy to opt for that.

[sfernald]

I don’t think anyone loves it right now. He needs work. The idea of a 6’9” PG feeding Wemby is just too tantalizing to resist, though. That would give us huge size advantages in two positions.

You know what sounds like a good idea to me? Snagging Killian Hayes, Jalen Suggs or Malcom Brogdon in a cheap trade and starting one of those actual point guards in the point guard position.

[CGD]

You know what sounds like a good idea to me? Snagging Killian Hayes, Jalen Suggs or Malcom Brogdon in a cheap trade and starting one of those actual point guards in the point guard position.

I’ve long been interested in Suggs as a reclamation.

[Ignazzz]

https://i.postimg.cc/4yNmcSPx/IMG-9191.png

[EricB]

the problem with a big line up is that team should kill the opponent on the glass. The Spurs are somehow able to do the opposite

rebounding improved tonight after the last game. Rebounding would be more than fine.

[EricB]

You know what sounds like a good idea to me? Snagging Killian Hayes, Jalen Suggs or Malcom Brogdon in a cheap trade and starting one of those actual point guards in the point guard position.


Hayes and Suggs suck and Malcom Brogdon makes Willie Anderson look like Cal Ripken Jr.

there is no more “point guards”

Catch up to 2023

[onechance87]

sochan needs to shoot better and rebound better....hopefully from our three first round picks sochan steps it up another level this year.
Cause i aint seeing it with wesley or branham

[sfernald]

Hayes and Suggs suck and Malcom Brogdon makes Willie Anderson look like Cal Ripken Jr.

there is no more “point guards”

Catch up to 2023

lol, for a 20 win team sure.

[poopbox]

Sochan as the point guard is an hilarious answer to who will go to the bench, him or Keldon so Wemby can play the 4

[exstatic]

Sochan as the point guard is an hilarious answer to who will go to the bench, him or Keldon so Wemby can play the 4

Sochan is playing point because of all of our lineups last year, any that featured Sochan and Tre Jones were awful. You just can't play them together.

[wildbill2u]

Sochan is playing point because of all of our lineups last year, any that featured Sochan and Tre Jones were awful. You just can't play them together.

I know this is going to be heresy, but Sochan still can't shoot and isn't a natural passer/initiator. He seems best suited as a front line player. If he can't take the SF position away from Keldon, maybe he is a 6th man at this point. He still has lots of time to develop some skills that he needs.

[Russo21]

I know this is going to be heresy, but Sochan still can't shoot and isn't a natural passer/initiator. He seems best suited as a front line player. If he can't take the SF position away from Keldon, maybe he is a 6th man at this point. He still has lots of time to develop some skills that he needs.

Agreed. I'm not fully sold on Sochan yet, I know a lot of Spur fans have high hopes for him which I hope he meets and exceeds as he seems like a good young man who's liked by his team mates. But he has a broken shot which at least he's trying to fix and isn't a natural passer so i hope we don't see him at PG much at all this year. We probably have the worst PG rotation and prospects in the whole league.

[poopbox]

I know this is going to be heresy, but Sochan still can't shoot and isn't a natural passer/initiator. He seems best suited as a front line player. If he can't take the SF position away from Keldon, maybe he is a 6th man at this point. He still has lots of time to develop some skills that he needs.

Yeah he only playing point guard so Keldon can stay in the starting lineup. Sochan does not have and has never displayed any point guard skills. Oh well. We should get a high pick this year and just take the best point guard available. Problem solved.

[spurraider21]

Agreed. I'm not fully sold on Sochan yet, I know a lot of Spur fans have high hopes for him which I hope he meets and exceeds as he seems like a good young man who's liked by his team mates. But he has a broken shot which at least he's trying to fix and isn't a natural passer so i hope we don't see him at PG much at all this year. We probably have the worst PG rotation and prospects in the whole league.
sochan actually is what i'd consider a natural passer. thats not whats stopping him from being a point guard.

draymond is a natural passer but he's not a point guard either. look at videos of draymond's assist highlights for an example. other than transition, there are very few circumstances where you see him being the offensive initiator, being the ball hander on pick and rolls, etc when racking up assists

[itzsoweezee]

I know this is going to be heresy, but Sochan still can't shoot and isn't a natural passer/initiator. He seems best suited as a front line player. If he can't take the SF position away from Keldon, maybe he is a 6th man at this point. He still has lots of time to develop some skills that he needs.

I think he’s a fine passer. His limitation as point guard is his handle. He struggled with pressure his first preseason game. However, he was much better against Houston bringing the ball up.

[John B]

Yeah he only playing point guard so Keldon can stay in the starting lineup. Sochan does not have and has never displayed any point guard skills. Oh well. We should get a high pick this year and just take the best point guard available. Problem solved.

Agree to some extent. But also because Pop wants as many bigs who can push the ball and facilitate. Sochan is not necessarily a PG. Pop will play positionless basketball, crisp passing, transition offense off a great defense. Stop trying to label positions. Damn, we don’t even know if Wemby’s a SF around perimeter or PF on the post, and sometimes he pushes the ball also.

[spurraider21]

I think he’s a fine passer. His limitation as point guard is his handle. He struggled with pressure his first preseason game. However, he was much better against Houston bringing the ball up.
handle and just a lack of quickness/burst to get by a guy out on the perimeter. contrast that with pre-back injury ben simmons

[rascal]

handle and just a lack of quickness/burst to get by a guy out on the perimeter. contrast that with pre-back injury ben simmons

Also add perimeter shooting to that list. Need a pg who can run an offense and take and hit a perimeter shot off the dribble.

Best if the spurs don't win enough games this year and get the best pg in next years draft.

[rascal]

Agree to some extent. But also because Pop wants as many bigs who can push the ball and facilitate. Sochan is not necessarily a PG. Pop will play positionless basketball, crisp passing, transition offense off a great defense. Stop trying to label positions. Damn, we don’t even know if Wemby’s a SF around perimeter or PF on the post, and sometimes he pushes the ball also.

Postionless basketball is nonsense. There are some skills necessary to run an efficient NBA offense and a player with traditional pg skills( quickness and dribbling abilities and able to make good passes/assits and able to beat his man off the dribble to the basket and able to hit perimeter shots off the dribble) is a must.

[Degoat]

I think Sochan ends up off the bench, he just isn’t there offensively with Keldon.

[John B]

Postionless basketball is nonsense. There are some skills necessary to run an efficient NBA offense and a player with traditional pg skills( quickness and dribbling abilities and able to make good passes/assits and able to beat his man off the dribble to the basket and able to hit perimeter shots off the dribble) is a must.

You just need someone to dump the ball to Wemby and play defense. Come on

[RC_Drunkford]

I'm fine with Sochan playing PG this year. Different players will bring the ball up and run pick & rolls. Sochan is best suited as a cutter and secondary playmaker, but I don't mind him playing PG. It's not ideal, but should help on the defensive side and he gets to develop his handles and passing skills. I still see us as a 40-win team with Sochan starting at PG with different players bringing up the ball and running pick & rolls.

[Sugus]

Postionless basketball is nonsense

No it isn't - you simply misjudge it because you don't understand it. That ain't positionless basketball's fault.


There are some skills necessary to run an efficient NBA offense and a player with traditional pg skills is a must.

And who said it isn't? You miss the point. Positionless ball says that not only do you need those skills, it's great to have more than one player excel at them - and more importantly, that those skills mustn't exclusively stem from the PG position.

Just watch Wemby roll on, and you'll catch on to it pretty quickly at the pace he's going.

[Chinook]

Positionless is a buzzword. It's the NBA version of crypto or AI. Just because it's clunky and doesn't work doesn't mean it's complex. Just because it's easy to point out problems with it doesn't mean folks don't understand it. Sochan right now isn't really playing PG. He's just starting instead of a PG. Other teams are guarding him with wings, and he's guarding wings and forwards. He's not meaningfully occupying the role outside of him struggling to initiate the offense.

[Sugus]

Positionless is a buzzword. It's the NBA version of crypto or AI. Just because it's clunky and doesn't work doesn't mean it's complex. Just because it's easy to point out problems with it doesn't mean folks don't understand it. Sochan right now isn't really playing PG. He's just starting instead of a PG. Other teams are guarding him with wings, and he's guarding wings and forwards. He's not meaningfully occupying the role outside of him struggling to initiate the offense.

Sochan is more of a product of positionless basketball than he is a good example of it right now, tbh. The idea and principles though are just fine and unclunky, you just need more fluid players (cough, Wemby) to play outside their position and into another.

And yes, he might be guarded by wings now, but he'll eventually create mismatches at the PG position if he ecomes fluid enough to play it at all, which is not a given, and we can get away with rolling out lineups with him at 1 and Wemby at 4 with Collins. That would be insane, you can't tell me that... And that would be a good example of positionless basketball done right.

Let me repeat my original point, btw - positionless basketball is far from "nonsense", and saying that it is, when it's been the theory dominating NBA "thinktanks" for the last decade, is a really stupid thing.

[Chinook]

Let me repeat my original point, btw - positionless basketball is far from "nonsense", and saying that it is, when it's been the theory dominating NBA "thinktanks" for the last decade, is a really stupid thing.

I'm trying to make this as short as possible. So first, there are two ways the term "positionless basketball" can be used to my understanding. 1) Aspiring to have a lineup of mid-sized players who play a highly switchable defense and who use their combination of size, skill and agility to exploit match-ups against smaller or larger players on the opposing side. 2) A type of offense where the archetypal roles and responsibilities (ball-handling, spacing, screen-setting, etc.) are handled by all players without allowing size dictate where a player is on the court or what they do.

1) is patently stupid. It's one of those things where just a little critical thinking should be enough to see why it wouldn't work. You're never going to have a team of Lebrons. There will always be superstar talents of all sizes, and skilled forwards/wings will cost too much for a team to collect enough high-end talent to fill a rotation. Moreover I'd reckon it's far easier for short and slower players to guard mid-sized role-players than for mid-sized players to check star PGs or centers. There's a reason why the most positionless team in the NBA last year got their shit pushed in so badly that they made a reckless trade for a center rather than continuing to roll with their "positionless" options. This isn't high-science. It's an attempt to force tech-bro "disruptive" logic into the NBA. It's just a bullshit buzzword.

2) has more merit. Just as centers are coming up being given the green light to learn how to shoot threes, there will be mid-sized players who are given the freedom to explore are more diverse skill-set. That's a rather uncomplicated positive from my perspective. I think offenses that allow for guys to play multiple roles can find themselves in more creative sets. However, there are a couple of issues. Players who are average or below-average in many skills aren't going to outcompete players who are elite at a narrower selection of skills. A forward showing off a mediocre drive-and-kick game isn't bending a defense more than an elite guard dashing toward the rim. A PG setting a screen isn't going to create the same space as a center who does the same thing. Guards posting up with be easier to help on, and centers shooting threes will find themselves both away from the basket for put-backs and rim pressure and put themselves in an awkward position of having to be the point of attack in transition defense. It's definitely a "bend, not break" kind of thing. Rather than a transition to a new era, it feels more like the changes to positional norms will lead to more diverse expressions of positions rather than an abolition of them.


And yes, he might be guarded by wings now, but he'll eventually create mismatches at the PG position if he ecomes fluid enough to play it at all, which is not a given, and we can get away with rolling out lineups with him at 1 and Wemby at 4 with Collins. That would be insane, you can't tell me that... And that would be a good example of positionless basketball done right.

With that in mind, which term applies to "Sochan playing PG"? I think it depends. Some folks are advocating it based on 2) -- they think doing this is just to build skills for Jeremy to use later when he's back to playing a position that makes sense. I could see this, though I think he needs to develop into a viable NBA player based on what he can already do before trying to turn him into a lead guy. I've expressed my lament over the team seemingly following this developmental plan with all of their young players and won't put it down again. However, your response definitely seems to be leaning toward 1) -- that Sochan playing PG gives the team a physical advantage that they're exploiting because they're smarter than everyone else or whatever. That's where I disagree. Sochan will NEVER play PG well enough to force the opposing PG to guard him. That's because it's not about what he does. It would require a situation where the lineup is so good that the PG cannot guard anyone else. Even a guy like Ben Simmons, who legit would guard the opposing PG on the other end and was fast enough to make it difficult for players his size to stay in front of him couldn't do that. At best, he could guard the opposing PGs and try to catch them in transition. If the team doesn't have any guard who can check opposing PGs better than Jeremy has shown so far, they're in trouble though.

So year, Sochan might work out as a PG in the same way Wesley might be a high-level guard. It could happen, but the Spurs should absolutely be looking at options with a higher chance of success. It feels like a waste of Sochan's potential with basically no upside. He can get the same touches while the team plays a more traditional lineup around him. If anything, Pop is doing the opposite of "positionless basketball" by enforcing a positional designation in a situation that didn't require one. It's hard to say there are no positions if you're going to take your 6-8 player and say, "He's the PG" rather than "There is no PG".

[Dejounte]

The Spurs fanbase has got to be the only community where topics like “this player should play this position because I think so” exist the most. I browse reddit, realgm, bleacher, other teams’ fan forums… the amount of talk here about this topic is unprecedented… if anything, kudos to Pop for making it a discussion to begin with— for his mad scientist coaching tactics that typically has led to successful player development, which is why I find it a headscratcher to see folks on the opposite side of this argument… like, especially from people who thought Dejounte Murray should have been a Danny Green type player.

[LeBowen]

If we had a competent PG, he would be starting.
Since we don't, it's better to start Sochan out of position than have Trae outmatched.

It's about fitting the best players on the roster into the lineup. Doesn't even matter who starts, but who finishes the game.
Hopefully we get an actual PG during the season when someone asks a trade, because with current roster we'll see a lot of questionable possessions and bad execution.
Can't blame the young guys, especially if they're playing suboptimal roles, but I feel like a veteran PG would help everyone develop way faster.

[John B]

Pop is still evaluating what Wemby and Co can do. Relax and trust the process. PATFO will make the decision to trade for a Vet PG if necessary when the time comes. For now they are mixing it up, experimenting what works and how they can maximize Wemby’s skills. This season and even next could be another “development” season, learning how to play among themselves, familiarity. Chill and just enjoy the ride :bobo

[couchman]

When this team is winning at a high level, what is Sochan’s role?

I think most can agree that he’s not a long term PG.
He doesn’t have the skill to consistently break down a defense on the PNR and find the open guy.
But I’m ok w him playing some of that role now as he develops.
It will make him better.

The finished product for Sochan probably looks like someone who can do a little bit of everything and is the ultimate role player.
His time at PG can help him develop those skills.
The shooting is improving and that development needs to continue.
I also want to see an emphasis on rebounding at some point.

Once he has all of that his position won’t matter so much. He’ll be able to fill in wherever we need him at the moment and unlock other players who are less versatile.

[exstatic]

Heresy: I'm not sure we need a long term PG. I want the ball in Wemby's hands as much as possible, not him depending on someone else feeding him.

[Mr. Body]

Personally, the 'PG' part isn't that important, other than wanting someone who is comfortable hitting from the initiating area and is a threat to drive/dish. What's most important to me is finding a way to defend the dynamic scorers in the league like Kyrie, Fox, SGA, and so on. The point position goes both ways.

[Seventyniner]

Heresy: I'm not sure we need a long term PG. I want the ball in Wemby's hands as much as possible, not him depending on someone else feeding him.

A Wemby-centric offense will mostly need the PG to bring the ball up past halfcourt without getting it stolen. The Shaq/Kobe Lakers weren't dependent on Fisher feeding either one of them.

[Dejounte]

Personally, the 'PG' part isn't that important, other than wanting someone who is comfortable hitting from the initiating area and is a threat to drive/dish. What's most important to me is finding a way to defend the dynamic scorers in the league like Kyrie, Fox, SGA, and so on. The point position goes both ways.

Exactly this. Come playoff time, traditional initiators take a backseat to wings taking over the ball anyway. It’s why point guards like CP3 and Nash never saw success their team’s best player. Fans think a point guard should be a certain way because it’s the type they’ve witnessed for a long time.

[Chinook]

like, especially from people who thought Dejounte Murray should have been a Danny Green type player.

Draymond Green, not Danny. Danny and DeJounte are basically opposite players in terms of their strengths and weaknesses, whereas Draymond and DeJounte have a ton of overlap. Unless you mean that some folks wanted DeJounte to learn how to shoot threes rather than focusing on mid-range shots. There is more to being a Danny Green on offense than just taking set shots.


The Spurs fanbase has got to be the only community where topics like “this player should play this position because I think so” exist the most.

I doubt that's true. But the Spurs seem more interested in changing positional designations than a lot of teams do for better or worse. If the Spurs are truly on the cutting edge of positionless basketball it makes sense the topic would be more frequently brought up by Spurs fans.


if anything, kudos to Pop for making it a discussion to begin with— for his mad scientist coaching tactics that typically has led to successful player development, which is why I find it a headscratcher to see folks on the opposite side of this argument

And you acknowledge that here, but for some reason you think it's weird that there'd be folks who don't agree just because the coach of the team they root for thinks it's a good idea. People second-guessing coaching decisions -- especially on a team that hasn't had much recent success -- is part of literally every fanbase of every sport. It's like how going for it on fourth down and going for two was a huge discussion point on Ravens forums in 2021 because Harbaugh kept making those calls. It's not shocking something that disproportionately affect their team would earn a ton of discourse. Add in the fact that it basically stopped working long before the Ravens stopped doing it, and there were many folks who disagreed with it very vocally (full disclosure: I am not a poster on those forums but was actually someone who thought it was fine).

[Chinook]

Heresy: I'm not sure we need a long term PG. I want the ball in Wemby's hands as much as possible, not him depending on someone else feeding him.

I think you're using "PG" here to mean like a floor-general, offense maestro kind of guy. I agree there, which is why I wasn't a fan of trading for Paul. There are multiple types of PGs, though and many of those archetypes would fit Wemby well. A score-first slashing would add a change of pace to make it harder to scheme against the Spurs. A dyanamic shooter at the position adds spacing and a secondary source of gravity. A two-way PG would diversify the defensive options. The concern from my perspective isn't that Pop wants Sochan to do PG things -- it's that Pop wants Sochan to be on the court in lieu of a PG-esque player with a relatively traditional lineup at the other positions. Just like many other teams with star non-PGs, the Spurs will likely never get away from the need for short quick guys to be in their rotation.

This is also ignoring that Wemby no matter how good he is, isn't going to use all or maybe even most of the team's possessions. The Spurs need more than one guy who can lead an offense. Wemby is a unique talent. When he's not on the court, the team will have to run completely different stuff, and it would be nice to have a guy who can do that while also being the robin during the Wemby minutes.

[Atl Spur]

His competitiveness & bbiq will be his saving grace until comfortability / skill set kick in! JS will be a problem for teams in a multitude of ways; his trajectory in my opinion is higher than Draymond G. skill set.

[Chinook]

A Wemby-centric offense will mostly need the PG to bring the ball up past halfcourt without getting it stolen. The Shaq/Kobe Lakers weren't dependent on Fisher feeding either one of them.

Here's the thing: Yes, that variation of LAL didn't need a PG most of the time. The Heatles didn't either. Yet they both still had PGs rather than starting bigger players there. Why? You can argue no one of the those Lakers teams could handle the ball well enough to justify taking even that job over Fisher. This is before they had guys like Odom and MWP. But what's the Heatles excuse? Lebron is a far more talented PG than Sochan can ever hope to be. Wade was more than capable of doing it. Heck Bosh could do it. The Heat had numerous role-playing wings who could dribble a ball up the court. Yet they still had Chalmers playing a big role and very quickly drafted a backup PG in Cole. Hell even when you had a big PG for real in Magic Johnson, the team still started a PG-sized player next to him. What's the deal? Why do teams that have every chance to be positionless still keep to positions?

[Mr. Body]

Several unimportant thoughts from my end:

1. The Spurs' system doesn't require an exceptional floor general. Even when Parker was here, he initiated the offense by driving and stirring the defense around. My guess is that this philosophy will continue after Pop. It seems to be a team identity.

2. My issue Sochan in a lead role isn't that he's not capable of it. He'll learn and do fine. His handles will improve. It's that he's not an outside threat and the role blunts his impact off the wings, where he was at times very effective last year. I'd rather have him blowing past players his size than guarded by smaller players, which provides less of an advantage (don't really want him posting up or getting into post maneuvers too much with what we have on the floor).

3. My concern about that '1' spot, whoever holds it, has always been defensive. This franchise has always struggled with Earl Boykins types, players who are unpredictable and dynamic, and the league has drifted hard in that direction (Kyrie, Fox, SGA, etc.). The major issues stopping players in this NBA are hitting the 3-point line and trying to control those aggressive guards. This is one reason, btw, that I think Pop is liking Wembanyama more on the perimeter at this point rather than guarding bigs. His length and roaming can help out there while remaining available for help-side defense. And this may be a reason why I remain optimistic about Wesley, since he's our best perimeter/point-of-attack defender.

[stnick2261]

You have to have the personnel to defend every (possible) position. Having players who can guard multiple positions gives us that flexibility (as well as having Wemby).
You have to have the personnel to bring the ball up the floor. We would have 4 out of 5 players capable of that in a Sochan, Vassell, Johnson, Wemby, & Collins SL. (Collins being the odd man out).
You have to have the personnel to pass the ball and have high BBIQ. All 5 of those players qualify.
You have to have the personnel to shoot the ball. (Sochan is the odd man out, but so would Jones be - and that's the biggest reason for not having them share the floor). If they can't shoot, they have to score in other ways (Sochan can).

If Sochan is starting "PG" then opposing PGs would (most likely) be guarding Vassell and that is a mismatch we can take advantage of.

[RC_Drunkford]

Has anybody here realized that Vassell ran the pick and roll with 1.02 points per possession? That's the same rate as De'Aron Fox and Kyrie Irving

[spurraider21]

Has anybody here realized that Vassell ran the pick and roll with 1.02 points per possession? That's the same rate as De'Aron Fox and Kyrie Irving
i expect vassell to continue improving his playmaking as well.

in the same way i think sochan should try to emulate draymond, i feel vassell's ideal direction is becoming a middleton

[Seventyniner]

Has anybody here realized that Vassell ran the pick and roll with 1.02 points per possession? That's the same rate as De'Aron Fox and Kyrie Irving

1.02 PPP is well below league average for efficiency across all plays types from last season (1.148), so I don't think I would want a steady diet of PnRs with Vassell.

[spurraider21]

His competitiveness & bbiq will be his saving grace until comfortability / skill set kick in! JS will be a problem for teams in a multitude of ways; his trajectory in my opinion is higher than Draymond G. skill set.
their dimensions are similar. sochan slightly taller, green with a slightly longer wingspan

but green seems a lot stronger than sochan, and shows way more suddenness when attacking with the ball in his hands. sochan does seem to have better scoring touch from close to mid-range.

its also notable that sochan as farther along than draymond was at the same age. draymond was a 22 year old rookie and wasnt really a good full time player until his 3rd year in the league as a 24 year old. sochan wont turn 21 until after this season ends. if sochan can become as good as draymond thats already a phenomenal outcome, obviously. think he needs to get quite a bit stronger, but has time to get there. he's stll a kid playing among men

[Vince Carter's ankle]

1.02 PPP is well below league average for efficiency across all plays types from last season (1.148), so I don't think I would want a steady diet of PnRs with Vassell.
https://sun9-69.userapi.com/impg/-hi6z_JhTzRFDcQpi-9pRA56v8Vnzd8594jdfg/6IZHvQDaEOk.jpg?size=378x822&quality=96&sign=a1b71491f8808e06bdf1a0414f040ac2&type=album

[Bruno]

The lineup for this season doesn't really matter, Spurs will be mediocre at best with their current roster. What matters is the lineup in 2/3 years when Spurs will try to be a serious contender.

IMO, Spurs' plan A for their future lineup is:
PG: a new player
SG: Vassell
SF: Johnson
PF: Sochan
C: Wembanyama

That's the plan A and it might, of course, derail: Johnson and/or Sochan might not be good enough, Wembanyama might be more suited to play PF...

Now, if everything goes well, it will be a damn good lineup.

[Mugen]

The lineup for this season doesn't really matter, Spurs will be mediocre at best with their current roster. What matters is the lineup in 2/3 years when Spurs will try to be a serious contender.

IMO, Spurs' plan A for their future lineup is:
PG: a new player
SG: Vassell
SF: Johnson
PF: Sochan
C: Wembanyama

That's the plan A and it might, of course, derail: Johnson and/or Sochan might not be good enough, Wembanyama might be more suited to play PF...

Now, if everything goes well, it will be a damn good lineup.

:tu

Luka can be a free agent in '26 as well....:stirpot:

[Chinook]

I like a rotation of:

Graham, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Branham, Champangie
Johnson, Osman, McDermott
Wembanyama, Sochan, Cissoko
Collins, Bassey, Mamukelashvili

With Rice, Barlow and Bediako as the two-way guys.

I think Graham gives the Spurs some dynamism when it comes to scoring without dominating the ball, but he can bring the ball up the floor, which is apparently all being a PG means to some folks. Sochan playing off the bench makes sense, but if you're worried about him and Jones, Jeremy can switch with Keldon. Then Sochan can "play PG" while Graham takes an off-ball role.

I don't love Collins as a starter based on the limited tape. I think he might work best as Victor's backup with a more energetic center as the starter. Collins seems to do his best work as the main inside presence, and a team with a 7-4 star will never cede that to him. I don't love Bassey as the starter, but his energy might set a better tone than Collins' willingness to get into scrapes.

McDermott is probably a safer bet over Osman, but I think Cedi might add some all around stability to that young bench unit than the more specialized McD wouldn't.

[spurraider21]

just based on the 3 preseason games, doesnt look like graham is in line for as big a role as he was last year. could just be giving the vet rest knowing he's going to be a fixture, but he's really been an afterthought in the 3 games so far, even with Tre and Sochan missing a game apiece

[RC_Drunkford]

1.02 PPP is well below league average for efficiency across all plays types from last season (1.148), so I don't think I would want a steady diet of PnRs with Vassell.

being in the 84th percentile is far above average. He's in the top 50 of all NBA players.

[Seventyniner]

Here's the thing: Yes, that variation of LAL didn't need a PG most of the time. The Heatles didn't either. Yet they both still had PGs rather than starting bigger players there. Why? You can argue no one of the those Lakers teams could handle the ball well enough to justify taking even that job over Fisher. This is before they had guys like Odom and MWP. But what's the Heatles excuse? Lebron is a far more talented PG than Sochan can ever hope to be. Wade was more than capable of doing it. Heck Bosh could do it. The Heat had numerous role-playing wings who could dribble a ball up the court. Yet they still had Chalmers playing a big role and very quickly drafted a backup PG in Cole. Hell even when you had a big PG for real in Magic Johnson, the team still started a PG-sized player next to him. What's the deal? Why do teams that have every chance to be positionless still keep to positions?

In general, my guess is that it's a combination of:


Defense. Somebody has to defend smalls and guys like Battier and Odom aren't well-suited to doing that for more than short stretches.
The backcourt. Somebody has to bring the ball up past halfcourt and it's much easier for a shorter player to protect his dribble while doing so.
Shooting. On offense the easiest type of role player to fit with superstars is an elite catch-and-shoot threat. Guys like that who aren't either short (Fisher, Chalmers) or huge defensive liabilities are very rare.
Height distribution. For a given skillset taller players are less plentiful than shorter players, so the taller players will command more of the salary cap and filling out a lineup, let alone a roster, with these "positionless" tall players is difficult.
Redundancy. Putting two wings and two bigs (or three wings and one big) next to someone like Magic or LeBron might leave you without a secondary ballhandler and almost certainly leaves you without a third. This overlaps some with the backcourt stuff above.


I will have to put some more thought into this; I'm not fully convinced of all of these points but I think they're a good place to start. I'm not going to defend this to the hilt cause I didn't watch the Showtime Lakers at all and the Heatles mainly when they played the Spurs.

[exstatic]

I like a rotation of:

Graham, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Branham, Champangie
Johnson, Osman, McDermott
Wembanyama, Sochan, Cissoko
Collins, Bassey, Mamukelashvili

With Rice, Barlow and Bediako as the two-way guys.

I think Graham gives the Spurs some dynamism when it comes to scoring without dominating the ball, but he can bring the ball up the floor, which is apparently all being a PG means to some folks. Sochan playing off the bench makes sense, but if you're worried about him and Jones, Jeremy can switch with Keldon. Then Sochan can "play PG" while Graham takes an off-ball role.

I don't love Collins as a starter based on the limited tape. I think he might work best as Victor's backup with a more energetic center as the starter. Collins seems to do his best work as the main inside presence, and a team with a 7-4 star will never cede that to him. I don't love Bassey as the starter, but his energy might set a better tone than Collins' willingness to get into scrapes.

McDermott is probably a safer bet over Osman, but I think Cedi might add some all around stability to that young bench unit than the more specialized McD wouldn't.

Collins starts because he shoots the 3 ball. We lack enough good shooters in the SL without removing one to replace him with another non 3 ball shooter.

[Obstructed_View]

Collins starts because he shoots the 3 ball. We lack enough good shooters in the SL without removing one to replace him with another non 3 ball shooter.
To add to your point, Pop told Collins to shoot when open, and I haven't seen him fail to do that a single time. His production and attitude are hard not to reward with a starting gig.

[Chinook]

Collins starts because he shoots the 3 ball. We lack enough good shooters in the SL without removing one to replace him with another non 3 ball shooter.

Bassey can shoot too. Collins is more practiced, and I have no problem saying he's the better shooter. But I think that's not a huge problem, especially if we are talking about Graham being in instead of Jones or Sochan.

[Chinook]

In general, my guess is that it's a combination of:


Defense. Somebody has to defend smalls and guys like Battier and Odom aren't well-suited to doing that for more than short stretches.
The backcourt. Somebody has to bring the ball up past halfcourt and it's much easier for a shorter player to protect his dribble while doing so.
Shooting. On offense the easiest type of role player to fit with superstars is an elite catch-and-shoot threat. Guys like that who aren't either short (Fisher, Chalmers) or huge defensive liabilities are very rare.
Height distribution. For a given skillset taller players are less plentiful than shorter players, so the taller players will command more of the salary cap and filling out a lineup, let alone a roster, with these "positionless" tall players is difficult.
Redundancy. Putting two wings and two bigs (or three wings and one big) next to someone like Magic or LeBron might leave you without a secondary ballhandler and almost certainly leaves you without a third. This overlaps some with the backcourt stuff above.


I will have to put some more thought into this; I'm not fully convinced of all of these points but I think they're a good place to start. I'm not going to defend this to the hilt cause I didn't watch the Showtime Lakers at all and the Heatles mainly when they played the Spurs.

Yep. That's sort of what I've been trying to say when it comes to why when it comes to why starting Sochan at "PG" with a traditional lineup doesn't feel like a viable idea. Even if you find guys who can do some of these things, like Simmons defending smalls or having the benefit of a Middleton who can also create so Giannis doesn't have to be the only guy, you still run into situations where having those shorter guys just makes sense. There are too many good players who are physically PGs for the Spurs to build the best roster they can while pushing for "positionless" players. It's a rather inefficient roster-building method that's perpetually prone to being beaten by more traditional lineups.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't know why anyone thinks the Spurs are going to try to acquire a traditional point guard. They have made no effort to do so through 90 percent of the time I've been a fan of them.

[spurraider21]

I don't know why anyone thinks the Spurs are going to try to acquire a traditional point guard. They have made no effort to do so through 90 percent of the time I've been a fan of them.
dont forget the one that got away, TJ Ford

[Obstructed_View]

dont forget the one that got away, TJ Ford

Is he the one who fell on his ass and injured his spine?

[rascal]

This whole season will be an experiment to see what they have roster wise moving forward. Sochan at pg is only because the spurs don't have a good pg. That's why I see around 30 wins and back in the lottery to get a true pg.

Next year is when we'll see big leaps of team success with a more traditional pg.

[R. DeMurre]

Yeah, it's Year One of the Wembanyama Era. At least 70% of these players likely won't even be here in 4 years. This is the year for Pop to mess around with as many combinations as possible, because in the future Wemby-led championship year(s), it'll be a very different team anyway. I see the Sochan experiment as warming him up for a future solid secondary ballhandler role. I don't think anyone really thinks he'll be the starting PG of the 2026 Spurs.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Is he the one who fell on his ass and injured his spine?

Yes and in the 2012 series against OKC when everyone was still sunshine pumping after game 3 loss I was saying how we needed his play making and change of pace or the Thunder had our offense totally figured out and timvp made a big deal laughing about it

He would have helped greatly had his spine held up.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah I liked TJ. Most important point guard injury since Doc.

[poopbox]

Yeah, it's Year One of the Wembanyama Era. At least 70% of these players likely won't even be here in 4 years. This is the year for Pop to mess around with as many combinations as possible, because in the future Wemby-led championship year(s), it'll be a very different team anyway. I see the Sochan experiment as warming him up for a future solid secondary ballhandler role. I don't think anyone really thinks he'll be the starting PG of the 2026 Spurs.

Meh. I think Pop is legit going to give Sochan a chance at point. I don't even think Pop views it that way. I think Pop only views it as "Sochan, Wemby, and Devin are the future of my team so they are going to start I don't care about positions"

[Obstructed_View]

Sochan can guard five positions. It would take an amazing point guard to push him to the bench.

[spurraider21]

Being a good passer for your position doesn’t make you a point guard

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/%22Freedom_of_Speech%22_-_NARA_-_513536.jpg/800px-%22Freedom_of_Speech%22_-_NARA_-_513536.jpg

[John B]

Sochan is not being developed as a PG, but a more all-around player during this “development year” while Wemby and Co are still being developed. Pop sees in Jeremy as someone who has unlimited potential, fearless and does everything. He is willimg to learn with gusto as evident with his one-handed FT. With future All-NBA Wemby, then Devin as highly All-Star (maybe Keldon), the future is bright if Spurs can develop Sochan as that glue-guy who does everything, pass, push the ball, defense and high character guy.

Stop obsessing about Sochan as PG. It’s a season to develop, getting to know how to play together, while honing other skills. Enjoy the ride :bobo

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, people are obsessing over the 'PG' thing. There are two elements: 1) bringing the ball up the court and 2) stirring the defense and forcing defensive players to make decisions.

People are thinking what is being said is "Jeremy Sochan is Chris Paul" which is kind of a nonsense assumption to make.

In the heyday the Spurs used Tony Parker as the guy who stirred the defense around with his movement with the ball, forcing defenders to make choices about coverage. Sochan might not do everything Parker does, but right now a primary duty will be 1) and possibly getting the offense moving in ways to force reactions.

That's it.

[Mr. Body]

As always the real question is who Sochan is guarding and whether he can do it.

[Spurs Homer]

The REAL question is:

is wemby playing tonite against the hated warriors?

[R. DeMurre]

The 72 win Bulls started 6'6" Ron Harper, 6'6" MJ, and 6'8" Scottie Pippen. Harper gets the PG designation mostly by default on stat pages, but all three could bring the ball up court and initiate the offense, and Pippen probably did that more than anyone else. But that's really a team without a traditional starting PG.

For me, the thing that'll be really interesting to watch will just be which really good player(s) actually become available. There's an interesting story from Phil Jackson about the Bulls deciding that PF was the position where they most needed an upgrade, so they sat down and made a list of their favorite possible PFs to pursue. For Jackson, #1 was Derrick Coleman. Rodman wasn't even in the top 5, but as it became apparent that the others weren't available, he became the choice. I doubt Coleman would've fit as well as Rodman did, regardless of all the drama, so it was probably lucky for them that things panned out the way they did. Imagine if some weird outlier situation pops up and someone like Chet Holmgren becomes available... I don't think anyone is planning for a combination like that right now, but it would be fascinating to see how the FO would evaluate that.

[exstatic]

The 72 win Bulls started 6'6" Ron Harper, 6'6" MJ, and 6'8" Scottie Pippen. Harper gets the PG designation mostly by default on stat pages, but all three could bring the ball up court and initiate the offense, and Pippen probably did that more than anyone else. But that's really a team without a traditional starting PG.

For me, the thing that'll be really interesting to watch will just be which really good player(s) actually become available. There's an interesting story from Phil Jackson about the Bulls deciding that PF was the position where they most needed an upgrade, so they sat down and made a list of their favorite possible PFs to pursue. For Jackson, #1 was Derrick Coleman. Rodman wasn't even in the top 5, but as it became apparent that the others weren't available, he became the choice. I doubt Coleman would've fit as well as Rodman did, regardless of all the drama, so it was probably lucky for them that things panned out the way they did. Imagine if some weird outlier situation pops up and someone like Chet Holmgren becomes available... I don't think anyone is planning for a combination like that right now, but it would be fascinating to see how the FO would evaluate that.

The Bulls NEVER ran a traditional PG under Big Chief Triangle. Kerr wasn't, nor was Paxson. They were spot up shooters that played off of Pip/MJ.

[JPB]

The lineup for this season doesn't really matter, Spurs will be mediocre at best with their current roster. What matters is the lineup in 2/3 years when Spurs will try to be a serious contender.

IMO, Spurs' plan A for their future lineup is:
PG: a new player
SG: Vassell
SF: Johnson
PF: Sochan
C: Wembanyama

That's the plan A and it might, of course, derail: Johnson and/or Sochan might not be good enough, Wembanyama might be more suited to play PF...

Now, if everything goes well, it will be a damn good lineup.

Wemby is gonna play PF in the NBA, so you'll have to associate him with a strong big like Collins, Plumlee, Lopez... I mean, that's litterally what spurs are doing now, Wemby will never be left alone as the only big banging with the Embiids of the world. And I'm not even sure besides Devin anybody is guaranteed to be here in 2-3 years, if you make a big trade for a second star, you'll have to give.

[CGD]

Wemby is gonna play PF in the NBA, so you'll have to associate him with a strong big like Collins, Plumlee, Lopez... I mean, that's litterally what spurs are doing now, Wemby will never be left alone as the only big banging with the Embiids of the world. And I'm not even sure besides Devin anybody is guaranteed to be here in 2-3 years, if you make a big trade for a second star, you'll have to give.

It’ll evolve. I think he’ll be the long-term 5 by the start of his next big contract.

[John B]

Wemby will never be full time Center, to defend the likes of Embiid, Jokic. Wemby will play SF/PF, however he plays with Sochan/Keldon. Wemby is a much better at help-defender with his long reach, he covers so much area and can get anywhere in within 1-2 steps. He would get pinned down and get bullied if he plays Center. That’s why you have a rugged Collins, and big body Bassey. Bediako is a good project big also if he can learn to shoot. Barlow, he’s a PF and hopefully, if he can extend his range as stretch 4.

[CGD]

The lineup for this season doesn't really matter, Spurs will be mediocre at best with their current roster. What matters is the lineup in 2/3 years when Spurs will try to be a serious contender.

IMO, Spurs' plan A for their future lineup is:
PG: a new player
SG: Vassell
SF: Johnson
PF: Sochan
C: Wembanyama

That's the plan A and it might, of course, derail: Johnson and/or Sochan might not be good enough, Wembanyama might be more suited to play PF...

Now, if everything goes well, it will be a damn good lineup.

I agree, though, I think the Keldon situation will evolve. I’d love to see him be the 6th man eventually, with the Spurs drafting another dynamic 3 this coming draft.

I’m not super anxious about pg just yet, but they’ll need to solve for that in the next two years. I’d love to be ready to pounce with our draft capital if a Cade, Garland or LaMelo start complaining about their current teams over the next 2 years.

[CGD]

Wemby will never be full time Center, to defend the likes of Embiid, Jokic. Wemby will play SF/PF, however he plays with Sochan/Keldon. Wemby is a much better at help-defender with his long reach, he covers so much area and can get anywhere in within 1-2 steps. He would get pinned down and get bullied if he plays Center. That’s why you have a rugged Collins, and big body Bassey. Bediako is a good project big also if he can learn to shoot. Barlow, he’s a PF and hopefully, if he can extend his range as stretch 4.

Never say never. Hell, he’ll play some center THIS year. Reality is he’ll naturally beef up:

https://www.google.com/search?q=giannis.rookie+and+now&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS975US975&oq=giannis.rookie+and+now&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yCggCEA AYhgMYigUyCggDEAAYhgMYigXSAQg4OTY5ajBqNKgCALACAA&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#vhid=SEDA6DMBVGLuyM&vssid=l

[spurraider21]

can somebody define and provide the parameters for what they would and would not consider a "traditional" or "true" point guard?

[John B]

Never say never. Hell, he’ll play some center THIS year. Reality is he’ll naturally beef up:

https://www.google.com/search?q=giannis.rookie+and+now&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS975US975&oq=giannis.rookie+and+now&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yCggCEA AYhgMYigUyCggDEAAYhgMYigXSAQg4OTY5ajBqNKgCALACAA&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#vhid=SEDA6DMBVGLuyM&vssid=l

You know what I mean. Even Sochan would play C in small ball. I never really like labeling positions, especially Wemby is so versatile, he can play multiple positions, and like how MJ, Kobe or even LeSoft, they transcend traditional positions, and just play to their strength, if it’s scoring, creating, passing, etc

[LeBowen]

can somebody define and provide the parameters for what they would and would not consider a "traditional" or "true" point guard?

Imo, in today's game primary ballhandler needs to be a triple threat and have good enough IQ to balance his own scoring with involving everyone else.
Obviously, teams can function without a traditional point guard, but it requires experience. As in our current roster is way too young for Jeremy at PG to work right away, there are going to be a lot of growng pains and bad games.
I'm completely fine with it, but on the other hand, it would be better for Victor's development if he had someone to fully utilize his skillset on offense.

[Obstructed_View]

can somebody define and provide the parameters for what they would and would not consider a "traditional" or "true" point guard?
John Stockton
Mark Jackson
Doc Rivers
Jason Kidd
Isiah Thomas
Chris Paul

[spurraider21]

John Stockton
Mark Jackson
Doc Rivers
Jason Kidd
Isiah Thomas
Chris Paul
can we give a description of what the parameters are instead of just naming 6 people?

[Chinook]

can we give a description of what the parameters are instead of just naming 6 people?

It's really troubling how folks can't just answer the question when it comes to this. I doubt a one of them would say Bonner and Blair were centers despite Pop starting both at the position at various times for years and even infamously playing them together for way too long. Like obviously those guys aren't centers. But then their brains completely slide over the idea that we all have a working knowledge of what each position is and that we're able to talk about those without getting pulled into a semantic hell hole when it comes to this discussion.

Pop says Sochan is the PG. He didn't say he was just starting with those other four guys. So for fuck's sake, we don't have to be cute about this. In the Spurs eyes, Sochan and Parker both play or played point-guard. It doesn't matter if they met some platonic standard for the position. That's where the Spurs put them, and we can talk about what we as individuals with brains think about it. Some of us think it's not really a good thing for the Spurs to do or are at least skeptical of how it's shaping up. Very few, I believe, think that because they're pining for the days of Avery Johnson. Instead of assuming you're brining a novel idea to bear that the Spurs haven't had many guys in the Avery mold recently, it makes way more sense to assume everyone else has eyes too and isn't a standard from the 90s. At least someone like Sugus was talking about the situation at face value rather than trying to bend the discourse with this strawman.

[spurraider21]

It's really troubling how folks can't just answer the question when it comes to this. I doubt a one of them would say Bonner and Blair were centers despite Pop starting both at the position at various times for years and even infamously playing them together for way too long. Like obviously those guys aren't centers. But then their brains completely slide over the idea that we all have a working knowledge of what each position is and that we're able to talk about those without getting pulled into a semantic hell hole when it comes to this discussion.

Pop says Sochan is the PG. He didn't say he was just starting with those other four guys. So for fuck's sake, we don't have to be cute about this. In the Spurs eyes, Sochan and Parker both play or played point-guard. It doesn't matter if they met some platonic standard for the position. That's where the Spurs put them, and we can talk about what we as individuals with brains think about it. Some of us think it's not really a good thing for the Spurs to do or are at least skeptical of how it's shaping up. Very few, I believe, think that because they're pining for the days of Avery Johnson. Instead of assuming you're brining a novel idea to bear that the Spurs haven't had many guys in the Avery mold recently, it makes way more sense to assume everyone else has eyes too and isn't a standard from the 90s. At least someone like Sugus (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54941) was talking about the situation at face value rather than trying to bend the discourse with this strawman.
could also run offenses that just de-emphasize PG play in general, like the triangle or the princeton. sochan lacking some of the traits that i think you or i would covet in a PG would be mitigated, though would also exacerbate his lack of shooting.

there's a conversation to be had there, but yeah, it just defaults to the avery johnson meme. as if any two "non traditional" point guards... say sochan and gilbert arenas, are in the same category of player, just because they're both in the "non-traditional" bucket. almost as if the two categories of shapes are squares and non-squares

[Obstructed_View]

can we give a description of what the parameters are instead of just naming 6 people?

I'm sorry, but I don't want to have to teach you the fucking game of basketball. Go be fucking obtuse with someone else. :lmao

[spurraider21]

I'm sorry, but I don't want to have to teach you the fucking game of basketball. Go be fucking obtuse with someone else. :lmao
im trying to understand what your position is, but you are unable or unwilling to elaborate on the terms you are using

its hard to engage with that

[JPB]

Definition of a spur PG (2023 edition): Some guy who brings the ball up the court and give it to Victor Wembanyama.

[Chinook]

could also run offenses that just de-emphasize PG play in general, like the triangle or the princeton. sochan lacking some of the traits that i think you or i would covet in a PG would be mitigated, though would also exacerbate his lack of shooting.

there's a conversation to be had there, but yeah, it just defaults to the avery johnson meme. as if any two "non traditional" point guards... say sochan and gilbert arenas, are in the same category of player, just because they're both in the "non-traditional" bucket. almost as if the two categories of shapes are squares and non-squares

In the other thread, I just responded to you with refreshers on how the Spurs actually used their PGs during the latter part of the Big Three era. Yes, there are a number of things they could do to mitigate the harm the PG could do (though remember in The Triangle, the PG does have to be a shooter. It's not just an incidental position. Sochan is learning, but I wouldn't say that offense suits his skill-set any better than some of the other offenses. There's a lot that goes into playing a position beyond just archetypes or general tasks like "bringing the ball up". I actually think you and I are looking at things in a somewhat different way in terms of our hopes and concerns -- it's just that we're both responding to the same flat argument and haven't even gotten into the nuances.

Like for example, I think you're more concern with Sochan's ability to handle PG duties. I don't particularly care if the Spurs want him to do those duties or not. I just want them to have a smaller-quick knifing guard next to him. Since that player will by convention be called the PG most of the time, that's what I want. I think we have discussion points in common, like how teams with bigger lead play-makers and/or offenses that didn't rely on classical floor-generaling navigated their rotations. My concern isn't that Sochan's going to suck at PG. It's that by starting him there the Spurs are setting themselves up for a less dynamic offense and one that doesn't help Wemby out as much as it should. I also think it's doing Sochan a diservice to have him focus on learning a new skill-set when he already needed a fair bit of shoring up to be a solid NBA player. Maybe Kawhi spoiled my thinking, but I've been of the mind that players don't have to start developing into stars immediately. They can get there after developing the role-player skill-set to be serviceable then elite in that area, and then use that foundation to start the transition. The Spurs have basically spent every pick since Anderson not following that arc. That's an old lament, and at this point I've learned to not worry too much. But I still wonder if the Spurs are going to get their PG in a year or two and find that Sochan isn't particularly equipped to play the forward position he should've been playing the whole time because he spent the year(s) trying to become a serviceable PG in an offense the team isn't even going to run anymore.

[Obstructed_View]

Good points. I think some of your concerns are handled by having Vassell and KJ as your starting guards. They are pretty dynamic cutters and aren't afraid to go to the hoop.

[spurraider21]

Like for example, I think you're more concern with Sochan's ability to handle PG duties. I don't particularly care if the Spurs want him to do those duties or not. I just want them to have a smaller-quick knifing guard next to him. Since that player will by convention be called the PG most of the time, that's what I want.
i'm not sure these are really separate concerns? im concerned that he cant do some key point guard things, which kinda implies he should play alongside a player that does do those things, ergo, a point guard. and your concern is that you want a PG next to him as well.

maybe its one of those "you got the same answer with different methods" situations


I think we have discussion points in common, like how teams with bigger lead play-makers and/or offenses that didn't rely on classical floor-generaling navigated their rotations.
im not really concerned with navigating rotations. im ok with atypically large point guards. before he flamed out, ben simmons was an effective nba player. he shot even worse than sochan somehow, but was a much better point guard than i think sochan is. penny was a tall point guard. obviously, magic. and for many stretches of his career, lebron basically ran point. i dont think it has to do with managing rotations vs just having a guy who is capable at the things you need him to be. you're just more likely to find smaller ones than bigger ones. im not opposed to using a bigger one. im just not convinced sochan fits the bill despite him being a good passer


My concern isn't that Sochan's going to suck at PG. It's that by starting him there the Spurs are setting themselves up for a less dynamic offense and one that doesn't help Wemby out as much as it should. I also think it's doing Sochan a diservice to have him focus on learning a new skill-set when he already needed a fair bit of shoring up to be a solid NBA player. Maybe Kawhi spoiled my thinking, but I've been of the mind that players don't have to start developing into stars immediately. They can get there after developing the role-player skill-set to be serviceable then elite in that area, and then use that foundation to start the transition. The Spurs have basically spent every pick since Anderson not following that arc. That's an old lament, and at this point I've learned to not worry too much.
this is my big concern. i think there is a fairly obvious developmental path for sochan to follow, and thats to try to be the next draymond, and not try to be the next ben simmons


But I still wonder if the Spurs are going to get their PG in a year or two and find that Sochan isn't particularly equipped to play the forward position he should've been playing the whole time because he spent the year(s) trying to become a serviceable PG in an offense the team isn't even going to run anymore.
im less concerned about that. sochan is so young and his offensive game does still seem pretty amorphous. think he could swap roles on the fly even now. im sure there will be lineups with him and tre sharing the floor this year

[Chinook]

Good points. I think some of your concerns are handled by having Vassell and KJ as your starting guards. They are pretty dynamic cutters and aren't afraid to go to the hoop.

I've mentioned before that I want a player who can reliably drive from the perimeter. I think that will provide vertical spacing while not clogging the paint the way a lob-threat big would. To me, it's not enough for it to be cutters. By and large those just keep a defense honest. I want someone who can bend even an honest defense, and that's someone who can force their man to make a choice while still punishing whatever choice they make. Keldon give me more hope in that regard than Vassell, because his combination of size and tenacity allows him to pressure on drives in a way that makes up for his speed. My worry is that he's purposefully not doing it that much anymore. That's specifically a weakness Vassell has right now, so I'm not really looking to him. The team badly needs rim pressure right now. They're most jump-shooters who rely on getting hot to score like an elite offense. Their offense seems like one that will be shut down pretty consistently by a team with good defensive fundamentals. That's why they need to pressure the rim, so they can create that movement in the defense to score even against talented clubs. Sochan might be able to do that if he gets tight handles and really learns how to use his body to block his man from stopping his momentum. But even so, I feel like he'd have more success doing that being guarded by bigs on the bench than by wings.

[Chinook]

i'm not sure these are really separate concerns? im concerned that he cant do some key point guard things, which kinda implies he should play alongside a player that does do those things, ergo, a point guard. and your concern is that you want a PG next to him as well.

I do think they're separate concerns that just happen to align on certain points. They aren't diametrically opposed or anything, but there are a number of scenarios where I think your concerns would take you to a different conclusion. Like I want a smaller, fast scoring guard in the lineup no matter what. But I think if you saw Sochan playing well and handling his duties, you'd be fine playing the rest of the lineup. We both would prefer if the Spurs had a smaller quick guard they felt confident in starting at PG. But that's because, "That guard can handle duties in case Sochan can't" and "That guard can balance an offense that badly needs speed and dynamism" happen to intersect on that conclusion.


this is my big concern. i think there is a fairly obvious developmental path for sochan to follow, and thats to try to be the next draymond, and not try to be the next ben simmons

It's weird how no teams seem interested in developing that role. There are a number of forward-sized defenders who come out of school every year with good defense and passing but sub-par shooting. The raw material is there, but no one's been able to make it work.

[8FOR!3]

What's wrong with him being Ben Simmons? Ben Simmons has been a mental midget in the NBA. I don't think Sochan has that in him. I do agree with you to an extent though. I just think he could be something in between. He moves and is built more like Ben Simmons than he is Draymond. Not saying he's as athletic as Ben though. Tbh I don't really see him "running the offense" I think we'll make it simple enough for him and he'll excel and if he doesn't Pop will make changes sooner than later.

[Mr. Body]

I liked him guarding Curry. Curry's obviously a super-canny player about getting open and his shots and Sochan did credibly well (preseason game). I think we'll see him on Doncic and Vassell taking Kyrie next week.

[The Truth #6]

Pop is starting his best 5 players. I think that's all it is. We don't have a great classical point guard but we have Sochan who is a good connective player and still developing but can guard point guards, so he gets to bring the ball up.

Also, I think Pop is wisely accepting the Wemby era and not trying to force things (yet) and he is open to possibilities.

To me, I add that all up and see that they aren't trying to lose but they aren't trying to win yet, but they're learning how to win. I'm choosing to accept that and just enjoy the excitement without high expectations.

[Obstructed_View]

Watching Sochan run the offense, knowing when to hit the open man, knowing when to press his advantage, and watching him checking Chris Paul and Stef Curry, sometimes both at once, makes me super optimistic for this season.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/-eRHAaEBewM?feature=shared

yeah, Sochan looked a lot better on offense (except those ugly last few minutes) and showed point guard prowess last night

and he was a terror on defense

it’s just like last season… people forget he improved basically every game. His growth was exponential.

this is another “heS nOt a Pg” situation that people did with Dejounte

[RC_Drunkford]

https://youtu.be/-eRHAaEBewM?feature=shared

yeah, Sochan looked a lot better on offense (except those ugly last few minutes) and showed point guard prowess last night

and he was a terror on defense

it’s just like last season… people forget he improved basically every game. His growth was exponential.

this is another “heS nOt a Pg” situation that people did with Dejounte

He's still rusty, you can see it on his jump shot. 20 games into the season he'll be a different animal

[exstatic]

There’s something to be said for force feeding a bigger player with the position. Anybody remember JKidd putting the ball into Giannis’ hands? He wouldn’t even let the media call him a point forward, correcting them every time: point GUARD. That kind of paid off.

[Atl Spur]

Jeremy is still rounding into shape; once he gets right we will see him abusing smaller players on the reg ( must tighten up that handle/ not worried about the three point shot as much as the midrange ) ! Our defense will be suffocating sooner than later too.

[The Truth #6]

Sochan is awesome. So easy to like him.

Doesn't really blow by people but he just keeps a steady dribble and just finds a way to keep backing people in. And I think once he gets more on a roll he'll just score more and more doing something so simple as that. I think in a few years once he gets some more polished scoring moves down, he's going to be a terror, in a quiet way.

Drinking the Kool aid even more, Pop and the front office might not want to trade a bunch of young players and picks to get some veteran, they might just be totally happy developing these great young players they have, and trading their draft picks to a team to get their draft picks later when they're not as good, in other words, just sort of punting down the field to get more awesome draft picks later once they're already winning. We'll see.

[Bruno]

Wemby is gonna play PF in the NBA, so you'll have to associate him with a strong big like Collins, Plumlee, Lopez... I mean, that's litterally what spurs are doing now, Wemby will never be left alone as the only big banging with the Embiids of the world.

Wembanyama should become a great PF and a great C in a few years. He has the physical tools and the skill set to play both position. Where he will end up playing depends mostly on what kind of basketball Spurs want to play.

To me, and I may be wrong on that, I find Wembanyama at C the best option in 2/3 years.

[Obstructed_View]

Wemby will be a matchup nightmare at any frontcourt position. You could make the case that right now he's playing as much 3 as 4.

[spurraider21]

really like what i've seen with wemby being a perimeter pest/menace. and not just as a help defender, we've seen people struggle when he mans up. look at a lot of wiggins' possessions yesterday. couldnt really shake him. wemby will have to figure out over time exactly how much he can back off players while being able to make a good contest. that will come with experience. wasnt something he really had to deal with in france... and offensively he clearly thrives facing up and it really helps having Collins out there being able to score in the paint if the defense spreads out too much.

obviously things will change as wemby gets older and grows into his body a bit more, but i dont think its a foregone conclusion that PF/SF wont be his best spot going forward as well. now yeah, when he ages and loses some footspeed, you probably dont want him out there defending the perimeter as often

[exstatic]

Wembanyama should become a great PF and a great C in a few years. He has the physical tools and the skill set to play both position. Where he will end up playing depends mostly on what kind of basketball Spurs want to play.

To me, and I may be wrong on that, I find Wembanyama at C the best option in 2/3 years.

You’re selling him short.

[Dejounte]

really like what i've seen with wemby being a perimeter pest/menace. and not just as a help defender, we've seen people struggle when he mans up. look at a lot of wiggins' possessions yesterday. couldnt really shake him. wemby will have to figure out over time exactly how much he can back off players while being able to make a good contest. that will come with experience. wasnt something he really had to deal with in france... and offensively he clearly thrives facing up and it really helps having Collins out there being able to score in the paint if the defense spreads out too much.

obviously things will change as wemby gets older and grows into his body a bit more, but i dont think its a foregone conclusion that PF/SF wont be his best spot going forward as well. now yeah, when he ages and loses some footspeed, you probably dont want him out there defending the perimeter as often

The way he awkwardly landed on at least two of his jump shots last night and the burden on his knees as he defends perimeter players like Wiggins will take its toll eventually. That kind of thing isnt sustainable, and to see him exhausted like he was after going 100% in the first quarter isn’t a fluke or a lack of NBA conditioning… it simply isn’t what you want ANY player to do no matter how GOAT level his skills are. Some of you want to kill Wemby, tbh. These NBA legends won championships when they stopped trying to do it all. Making Wemby as a do it all on both offense and defense isn’t going to take him far into the playoffs because exhaustion or injury will claim him.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sochan is awesome. So easy to like him.

Doesn't really blow by people but he just keeps a steady dribble and just finds a way to keep backing people in. And I think once he gets more on a roll he'll just score more and more doing something so simple as that. I think in a few years once he gets some more polished scoring moves down, he's going to be a terror, in a quiet way.

Drinking the Kool aid even more, Pop and the front office might not want to trade a bunch of young players and picks to get some veteran, they might just be totally happy developing these great young players they have, and trading their draft picks to a team to get their draft picks later when they're not as good, in other words, just sort of punting down the field to get more awesome draft picks later once they're already winning. We'll see.

He's effective despite being very obviously green. after seeing him keep the TO to a min last night, I really felt encouraged.

[spurraider21]

The way he awkwardly landed on at least two of his jump shots last night and the burden on his knees as he defends perimeter players like Wiggins will take its toll eventually. That kind of thing isnt sustainable, and to see him exhausted like he was after going 100% in the first quarter isn’t a fluke or a lack of NBA conditioning… it simply isn’t what you want ANY player to do no matter how GOAT level his skills are. Some of you want to kill Wemby, tbh. These NBA legends won championships when they stopped trying to do it all. Making Wemby as a do it all on both offense and defense isn’t going to take him far into the playoffs because exhaustion or injury will claim him.
id rather have him play like that for 30 minutes than have him play less effectively for 36

doesnt mean we want him sprinting up and down the court and then making super aggressive leaping closeouts every single possession. but its clearly a type of play that he is comfortable with and thrives in. then again, not every game will be against a warriors team where a guy as fast as wiggins is at the 4

[Dejounte]

id rather have him play like that for 30 minutes than have him play less effectively for 36

doesnt mean we want him sprinting up and down the court and then making super aggressive leaping closeouts every single possession. but its clearly a type of play that he is comfortable with and thrives in. then again, not every game will be against a warriors team where a guy as fast as wiggins is at the 4


Fair to have a different opinion. I’d rather have him play less effective if it means extending his career by lessening the risk for injury and any wear and tear. Yeah, it might mean less individual accolades but who cares.

[spurraider21]

Fair to have a different opinion. I’d rather have him play less effective if it means extending his career by lessening the risk for injury and any wear and tear. Yeah, it might mean less individual accolades but who cares.
its not the accolades. that version of wemby would have just an absurd impact on the game like we saw against GSW

he can always have some possessions off on offense, letting other guys like vassell, keldon, collins go to work while he just spots up. obviously flying up and down the court against the warriors and then taking jumpers off the dribble is going to be exhausting and not sustainable all game. but give me that wemby on defense who can be a decoy on offense when he needs a breather

defensively, playing him as a wing just lets him impact so much of the court area that its legitimately a game changer. there isnt really an NBA parallel, and closest thing i could think of is some amalgam of giannis and young anthony davis. in an nba era where defense is really hard to come by, somebody with that kind of impact on defense is the ultimate trump card. more so than being a gifted offensive scorer in a league where offense is somewhat easy to come by

[sfernald]

Wemby is gonna play PF in the NBA, so you'll have to associate him with a strong big like Collins, Plumlee, Lopez... I mean, that's litterally what spurs are doing now, Wemby will never be left alone as the only big banging with the Embiids of the world. And I'm not even sure besides Devin anybody is guaranteed to be here in 2-3 years, if you make a big trade for a second star, you'll have to give.

You think he’s going to stay a nineteen year old teenager for ever?

https://i.insider.com/5481d0c66bb3f70e765e3bf4?width=932&format=jpeg

[Chinook]

The way he awkwardly landed on at least two of his jump shots last night and the burden on his knees as he defends perimeter players like Wiggins will take its toll eventually. That kind of thing isnt sustainable, and to see him exhausted like he was after going 100% in the first quarter isn’t a fluke or a lack of NBA conditioning… it simply isn’t what you want ANY player to do no matter how GOAT level his skills are. Some of you want to kill Wemby, tbh. These NBA legends won championships when they stopped trying to do it all. Making Wemby as a do it all on both offense and defense isn’t going to take him far into the playoffs because exhaustion or injury will claim him.

Yeah, I noticed his landing too. In general I think he's jumping too much, often time without a reason. I know we're all excited about how good he looks, but it should be clear to everyone that Wemby didn't have much idea about what he was doing. On offense, he was running around trying to "get open" without caring at all if that actually fit with what other players were doing. In general, he's hopping around way more than a guy who can see over everyone and reach things way beyond anyone else would ever need to. I think the length of his legs means there's often a huge time difference in how long it takes him to land depending on whether he lifts his knees or not. That's going to make it harder to learn to consistently land properly. He basically jumped at everything on defense. He was out of position multiple times. He's just so ... Wemby, that he can be in multiple "positions" at once. He had yet more moments of leaking out before his team had secured the rebound and running himself out of plays as a result.

As he matures, he's going to get rid of this wasted movement. If the coaches don't get him to do that, then what will is players who have had time to scout Wemby how to take advantage of jump and fling his arms around. He's very likely to have games where he's saddled with foul trouble really quickly. He's going to realize that he can have nearly the same impact on shots just by existing and save his bursts for low-risk opportunities to deflect high-percentage shots. That combined with figuring out his place in the offense is going to lead to him playing a more physically sustainable style. Wemby's nowhere near as good as he's going to be. It's easy to see some of the highlights and think he's basically a star already. That may be true, but Prime Wemby will be a very different player than the one we see today.

[spurraider21]

Yeah. Old Duncan on one leg was still an awesome rim protector because he got smarter over the years and got better at timing, positional understanding, etc

wemby will have a similar evolution as long as he wants to

in the meantime he has a wemby sized margin of error

[couchman]

Getting rid of wasted movement will happen and that is when he’ll become a 35+ mpg force.
Until then we might be frustrated to find him playing lower minutes than you’d like to preserve his health and his energy

[Atl Spur]

Yeah, I noticed his landing too. In general I think he's jumping too much, often time without a reason. I know we're all excited about how good he looks, but it should be clear to everyone that Wemby didn't have much idea about what he was doing. On offense, he was running around trying to "get open" without caring at all if that actually fit with what other players were doing. In general, he's hopping around way more than a guy who can see over everyone and reach things way beyond anyone else would ever need to. I think the length of his legs means there's often a huge time difference in how long it takes him to land depending on whether he lifts his knees or not. That's going to make it harder to learn to consistently land properly. He basically jumped at everything on defense. He was out of position multiple times. He's just so ... Wemby, that he can be in multiple "positions" at once. He had yet more moments of leaking out before his team had secured the rebound and running himself out of plays as a result.

As he matures, he's going to get rid of this wasted movement. If the coaches don't get him to do that, then what will is players who have had time to scout Wemby how to take advantage of jump and fling his arms around. He's very likely to have games where he's saddled with foul trouble really quickly. He's going to realize that he can have nearly the same impact on shots just by existing and save his bursts for low-risk opportunities to deflect high-percentage shots. That combined with figuring out his place in the offense is going to lead to him playing a more physically sustainable style. Wemby's nowhere near as good as he's going to be. It's easy to see some of the highlights and think he's basically a star already. That may be true, but Prime Wemby will be a very different player than the one we see today.

True on so many levels.

[rankingtear]

Sochan could play point guard for this team long term, Wemby would not even play center enough to maximize the value of a star point guard. We are already built like early BOS and MIL. Defensive versatility at that guard position is more valuable for how this roster is constructed.

[Atl Spur]

Sochan could play point guard for this team long term, Wemby would not even play center enough to maximize the value of a star point guard. We are already built like early BOS and MIL. Defensive versatility at that guard position is more valuable for how this roster is constructed.

I agree big homie!

[RC_Drunkford]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uuGF6w8PUM

people should watch this. Look who played PG there and scored 30

[Chinook]

Branham was the PG. I'm not saying that as a way to twist out of this. The team literally started Branham instead of Jones and said Malaki was the PG. In fact, some outlets still think Branham is a point-guard.

https://www.si.com/nba/spurs/news/san-antonio-spurs-malaki-branham-smoothness-victor-wembanyama


There's a lot to like with the young prospects on the San Antonio Spurs roster, but with so many, it can be easy to get lost in the fray.

But for point guard Malaki Branham, he shouldn't be someone that's overlooked.

[spurraider21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uuGF6w8PUM

people should watch this. Look who played PG there and scored 30
Looks like from about 2 minutes onward in that higlight vid did he run point. Mostly in the 4th q

[Chinook]

That is true. There are definitely stretches there where he ran point. I was mistaken.

[RC_Drunkford]

Branham was the PG. I'm not saying that as a way to twist out of this. The team literally started Branham instead of Jones and said Malaki was the PG. In fact, some outlets still think Branham is a point-guard.

https://www.si.com/nba/spurs/news/san-antonio-spurs-malaki-branham-smoothness-victor-wembanyama

it’s basically equal to the playstyle we run now, with PG by committee. He ran point plenty of times, so he should still be able to get his numbers that way

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

If Sochan can get comfortable facilitating the offense, our lineup with him as point and Wemby as PF is going to cause so many matchup problems for opposing teams that it's going to be ridiculous. Our smallest starter is Keldon, and he was the starting power-forward muscle two years ago (obviously with Poeltl plodding around too). This team might make a lot of noise if everyone gels and this group gets flowing.

[BacktoBasics]

Sochan does not have the handles to be the primary pg. I do agree that he’s a great change of pace to create mismatches/problems etc.

The last thing we want is for Sochan to be tasked with chasing down speedy guards all game.

He may even start at pg but makes no sense to force him into that slot full as the primary facilitator of the offense.

[exstatic]

Sochan does not have the handles to be the primary pg. I do agree that he’s a great change of pace to create mismatches/problems etc.

The last thing we want is for Sochan to be tasked with chasing down speedy guards all game.

He may even start at pg but makes no sense to force him into that slot full as the primary facilitator of the offense.

What do you think he's going to do, even if he's playing forward? He's our point of attack defender, and will chase whoever he needs to, like Bruce did. Dirk one night, Allen Iverson the next.

[spurraider21]

he's obviously a good passer, dont think anybody here has doubted that

im still not convinced he's good enough create anything, to cause the defense to react in meaningful ways, etc. he did have a couple of nice drives here but that came against Saric. did end it with one nice pick and roll pass to bassey on the short role. he's still so young and can get better, but i think its less of a skill issue and more of him just not having great burst/athleticism to be a drive threat

if wemby is going to be this good, and vassell's shooting has taken that next step, perhaps its something we can get away with. given the defensive potential, hard not to be at least somewhat intrigued. i do think this experiment is sochan's most realistic path to the starting 5.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eRHAaEBewM

[Chinook]

he's obviously a good passer, dont think anybody here has doubted that

im still not convinced he's good enough create anything, to cause the defense to react in meaningful ways, etc. he did have a couple of nice drives here but that came against Saric. did end it with one nice pick and roll pass to bassey on the short role. he's still so young and can get better, but i think its less of a skill issue and more of him just not having great burst/athleticism to be a drive threat

if wemby is going to be this good, and vassell's shooting has taken that next step, perhaps its something we can get away with. given the defensive potential, hard not to be at least somewhat intrigued. i do think this experiment is sochan's most realistic path to the starting 5.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eRHAaEBewM

I think his floor game is going to be far better if he's going up against PFs than perimeter players. His best post move is a fadeaway, which also works well against bigger guys rather than smaller players he'd have a harder time "feeling out". I could see him having a lot more success when Wemby is on the bench and Jeremy is probably the second-tallest Spur on the court. So long as Collins is going to start, I don't know if even putting in a guard for Johnson would really alter the projected defenses.

[spurraider21]

I think his floor game is going to be far better if he's going up against PFs than perimeter players. His best post move is a fadeaway, which also works well against bigger guys rather than smaller players he'd have a harder time "feeling out". I could see him having a lot more success when Wemby is on the bench and Jeremy is probably the second-tallest Spur on the court. So long as Collins is going to start, I don't know if even putting in a guard for Johnson would really alter the projected defenses.
that tracks with him having the most success when defended by Saric

think we're both skeptics of the experiment, but im still curious enough to want to get an extended look, either to see how much more adept he can become at the role, or if any shortcomings are offset by the defensive potential of the big lineup

[Chinook]

that tracks with him having the most success when defended by Saric

think we're both skeptics of the experiment, but im still curious enough to want to get an extended look, either to see how much more adept he can become at the role, or if any shortcomings are offset by the defensive potential of the big lineup

Indeed. Sochan's development is going to have to be in body-positioning, since he probably wouldn't have the agility advantage over most defenders. He's probably not blowing past those guys but he can find angles, get leverage and seal them. If Sochan is going to be a PG rather than just start at the position, then he'll probably need to be able to generate more offense when Wemby is not on the court. So I don't see this as just him being a caretaker who brings the ball up, passes it off and then leaves the offense alone. That's "PG by committee", and it's not what Pop seems to have meant. I don't think it's too troubling that a 20-year-old is not doing it well immediately. But I'm hoping he follows that pathway if the team sticks with this lineup going forward.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

he's obviously a good passer, dont think anybody here has doubted that

im still not convinced he's good enough create anything, to cause the defense to react in meaningful ways, etc. he did have a couple of nice drives here but that came against Saric. did end it with one nice pick and roll pass to bassey on the short role. he's still so young and can get better, but i think its less of a skill issue and more of him just not having great burst/athleticism to be a drive threat

if wemby is going to be this good, and vassell's shooting has taken that next step, perhaps its something we can get away with. given the defensive potential, hard not to be at least somewhat intrigued. i do think this experiment is sochan's most realistic path to the starting 5.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eRHAaEBewM

I imagine him as working out of the high post as opposed to the traditional 1 way of doing things.

[Mr. Body]

I do think he's going to suffer offensively in the new set-up, at least in terms of his own point production. But then his offensive skillset wasn't the biggest to begin with and he'll be taken away from the spots he's most comfortable. (Last year he seemed best driving on guys his size or in transition.)

I don't think that's a bad thing. One, he doesn't seem like he cares about ppg stats all that much. Two, there are enough scorers in the lineup. And his threats will come along. He's hardly a finished product or even close.

[Atl Spur]

Jeremy will do a lot of posting up this year, he will abuse opposing players via the mismatch. I’d be shocked if he didn’t work this advantage.

[BacktoBasics]

What do you think he's going to do, even if he's playing forward? He's our point of attack defender, and will chase whoever he needs to, like Bruce did. Dirk one night, Allen Iverson the next.

In spurts. He’s not gonna chase Ja Morant around the whole game.

[exstatic]

In spurts. He’s not gonna chase Ja Morant around the whole game.

I would bet if he plays 32 minutes. 24-25 will be covering Ja, assuming he does no more gun videos and actually returns after his 25 games.

[BacktoBasics]

I would bet if he plays 32 minutes. 24-25 will be covering Ja, assuming he does no more gun videos and actually returns after his 25 games.

I'd be surprised by that(maybe for 18 minutes? How many minutes are you expecting Sochan to log? 30+?) but being that Sochan won't be an offensive focal point I supposed it would be fine. I'm just not sold that its the best path. He really doesn't have the speed to do that for heavy minutes.

[Fizziksman]

hope the experiment doesn't suck to spectacularly

[Fizziksman]

:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

[rascal]

Tell me again what Sochan is so great at.

Shooting No, Rebounding No, Shot blocking No, Defense No, PG definitely not.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Tell me again what Sochan is so great at.

Shooting No, Rebounding No, Shot blocking No, Defense No, PG definitely not.
Tell me again what Wemby is so great at.

Shooting No, Rebounding No, Shot blocking No, Defense No, PG definitely not.

[Kevin]

Sochan can learn PG coming off the bench leading the second unit. Tre needs to be the starter

[spurraider21]

Tell me again what Wemby is so great at.

Shooting No, Rebounding No, Shot blocking No, Defense No, PG definitely not.
scoring and defense

outside shooting and turnovers have been his blemishes

[Vince Carter's ankle]

scoring and defense

outside shooting and turnovers have been his blemishes
funny
do you even watch games?
he jumps on any opponent's shot and has poor positioning in defense
this is definitely not great defense

[MultiTroll]

Shot blocking No
:lol 7/10

[spurraider21]

funny
do you even watch games?
he jumps on any opponent's shot and has poor positioning in defense
this is definitely not great defense
yeah i've been watching. he hasnt been flawless on defense. i've called out his jumping at every action as well.

but if you have also been watching the games, you'd still see that he's been a huge deterrent even when he doesnt wind up with a steal or block

[Atl Spur]

We can achieve the same big lineup effect by moving cedi into the starting lineup and keldon to the bench ( six man ). Cedi is a pretty good ball handler with a high bbiq, while keldon is energy. Tre, bran, keldon, mamu, bassey.

[spurraider21]

We can achieve the same big lineup effect by moving cedi into the starting lineup and keldon to the bench ( six man ). Cedi is a pretty good ball handler with a high bbiq, while keldon is energy. Tre, bran, keldon, mamu, bassey.
i think jones/vassell/osman/wemby/collins gives the team the best chance to squeeze wins this year, with keldon/sochan being key bench contributors

but if pop is still using this season as a development/evaluation year, i think they're going to want to give keldon a longer leash with the starting 5 to see if he can find a productive role there. the ceiling is higher with keldon than osman, so they're going to want to exhaust that before capitulating and starting the journeyman who might not even be back with the club next year

that might also be why pop can continue being stubborn with sochan, but having a dysfunctional offense as a result of the sochan experiment frankly makes it difficult to evaluate anybody else in that unit

[The Truth #6]

I think the biggest takeaway from all this is not that Jeremy is ruining everything, but for me it's that the team is not as good as everyone hoped it would be, and there's still a lot of work to be done, and the Vegas over under line maybe is a little more accurate than we want to believe, and also like I thought earlier, Pop is okay going slow here and totally okay getting back in the lottery.

[spurraider21]

I think the biggest takeaway from all this is not that Jeremy is ruining everything, but for me it's that the team is not as good as everyone hoped it would be, and there's still a lot of work to be done, and the Vegas over under line maybe is a little more accurate than we want to believe, and also like I thought earlier, Pop is okay going slow here and totally okay getting back in the lottery.
i was overall more pessimistic on the season outlook than most, kind of in line with what Bruno has been saying

with that said, i'd be lying if i said that wemby's preseason didnt get me thinking that this team would be better, earlier than ive thought. in the preseason, it largely looked like as long as he's on the floor, his leave his footprint on the game. instead so far in the reg season he's kind of being a dormant volcano that just erupts for minutes at a time. did so for one stretch against dallas, late against houston, but not at all against the clippers.

[Brazil]

Tell me again what Wemby is so great at.

Shooting No, Rebounding No, Shot blocking No, Defense No, PG definitely not.

:lmao

[cd98]

Tell me again what Sochan is so great at.

Shooting No, Rebounding No, Shot blocking No, Defense No, PG definitely not.

Well, in year two (beginning of year 2) we still don't know other than I think he has improved a little. Certainly he can post up point guards and score on them as he did that against Dallas and Houston. Since he's playing point guard, he will get less rebounds and blocked shots, but he did okay in those areas last year as a rookie on limited minutes. He's the best one on one defender we have on the roster, even if he isn't an all-NBA defender. And it takes 2-3 years to learn how to be an NBA point guard for guys that have been playing point guard most of their lives. Maybe if people are patient, he will look really good at the end of the year. I don't think PG is his best position, but Pop feels he's one of the best 5 players on the roster and he can't play him at the 4 since that's Wemby's spot and he can't play him at the 5 because he is a little undersized for that.

Sochan is good because he can do a little bit of everything. And he has a motor. Give him another year or two in the league and he will get better at everything. It took Vassell three years to look like a good player. Why bail on Sochan after 3 games of his second year when he played well for half the season last year before the Spurs sat him to tank for Wemby?

[RC_Drunkford]

our best line up has been Tre/Vassell/Keldon/Osman/Wemby by my memory. We always went on the run with that line up

[rascal]

Well, in year two (beginning of year 2) we still don't know other than I think he has improved a little. Certainly he can post up point guards and score on them as he did that against Dallas and Houston. Since he's playing point guard, he will get less rebounds and blocked shots, but he did okay in those areas last year as a rookie on limited minutes. He's the best one on one defender we have on the roster, even if he isn't an all-NBA defender. And it takes 2-3 years to learn how to be an NBA point guard for guys that have been playing point guard most of their lives. Maybe if people are patient, he will look really good at the end of the year. I don't think PG is his best position, but Pop feels he's one of the best 5 players on the roster and he can't play him at the 4 since that's Wemby's spot and he can't play him at the 5 because he is a little undersized for that.

Sochan is good because he can do a little bit of everything. And he has a motor. Give him another year or two in the league and he will get better at everything. It took Vassell three years to look like a good player. Why bail on Sochan after 3 games of his second year when he played well for half the season last year before the Spurs sat him to tank for Wemby?

Sochan is not the best defender on the team. His defensive rating was 9th best on the worst defensive team in the league last year. He's overrated in here and doesn't have stats to support the hype.

[cd98]

Sochan is not the best defender on the team. His defensive rating was 9th best on the worst defensive team in the league last year. He's overrated in here and doesn't have stats to support the hype.

Well the Spurs had him guarding the best player on every team last season. They are doing the same this season. So the stats don't tell you everything. Obviously the Spurs, who know more about defense than any of us and the talent level of their defenders, demonstrated that he is the best individual defender on the team by assigning him to the toughest defensive assignments.

Who on the roster is a better individual defender than Sochan?

[The Truth #6]

Well the Spurs had him guarding the best player on every team last season. They are doing the same this season. So the stats don't tell you everything. Obviously the Spurs, who know more about defense than any of us and the talent level of their defenders, demonstrated that he is the best individual defender on the team by assigning him to the toughest defensive assignments.

Who on the roster is a better individual defender than Sochan?

Wemby (cough, cough)

[The Truth #6]

But I really like Sochan.

[cd98]

Wemby (cough, cough)

Wemby is a great team defender but you can’t expect him to lock down every position one on one. Wemby wasn’t guarding Luka and he guarded Kawhi for a minute and it went poorly. Wemby is going to be a great team defender but I don’t think you can put him on say Damian Lillard or Luke or as evidenced by last night, Kawhi.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Sochan is not the best defender on the team. His defensive rating was 9th best on the worst defensive team in the league last year. He's overrated in here and doesn't have stats to support the hype.
what kind of genius do you need to be born to evaluate 1 on 1 defense by defensive rating?
do you even know how it is calculated?

[Kawhi Duncan]

Well, in year two (beginning of year 2) we still don't know other than I think he has improved a little. Certainly he can post up point guards and score on them as he did that against Dallas and Houston. Since he's playing point guard, he will get less rebounds and blocked shots, but he did okay in those areas last year as a rookie on limited minutes. He's the best one on one defender we have on the roster, even if he isn't an all-NBA defender. And it takes 2-3 years to learn how to be an NBA point guard for guys that have been playing point guard most of their lives. Maybe if people are patient, he will look really good at the end of the year. I don't think PG is his best position, but Pop feels he's one of the best 5 players on the roster and he can't play him at the 4 since that's Wemby's spot and he can't play him at the 5 because he is a little undersized for that.

Sochan is good because he can do a little bit of everything. And he has a motor. Give him another year or two in the league and he will get better at everything. It took Vassell three years to look like a good player. Why bail on Sochan after 3 games of his second year when he played well for half the season last year before the Spurs sat him to tank for Wemby?

It's not about bailing... He isn't a PG... and why force him as that at the expense of Wemby's development?

[cd98]

It's not about bailing... He isn't a PG... and why force him as that at the expense of Wemby's development?

For a few reasons: (1) it takes time to develop into an NBA point guard and he has some ability to do things, like dribble and be tall enough to see over the defense and he is athletic enough to guard any point guard; (2) he's one of the 5 best players on the team, but his more natural position is the one that Wemby plays, so they need to try to find another way to get him on the court; (3) if he can develop into a point guard, something that will take more than 3 games, then the Spurs can have a big lineup in place that can be dominant defensively while being efficient on offense. That's a big "if" but they have time to experiment. Spurs fans believe the hype that we are contenders right away with Wemby and that was always false to any rational observer. Now is the time to experiment and losing is not a bad thing if the experimenting finds the winning formulae or produces another high lottery pick that allows them to find their point guard of the future. You can't give up on an experiment 3 games in just because you lose some games, at least not when you have no shot of making the playoffs anyway.

[z0sa]

I think the biggest takeaway from all this is not that Jeremy is ruining everything, but for me it's that the team is not as good as everyone hoped it would be, and there's still a lot of work to be done, and the Vegas over under line maybe is a little more accurate than we want to believe, and also like I thought earlier, Pop is okay going slow here and totally okay getting back in the lottery.

I'm sketch on the idea of not even trying to win. IE another pretty clear tankjob. I think building teams through the draft is something the Spurs do best though, as well. The real x factor will be Wemby - does a season or two continuing at the bottom so we can gamble on contending by his 4th-5th season affect his mindset negatively in the long term?

Getting used to losing is a bad thing for any young player's mentality, especially once he starts making mega millions. BUT, if Wemby keeps his head about him, then things like this Jeremy Sochan PG experiment aren't really a big deal. It's pretty risky by Pop to just go with it and trust 19 year old Wemby won't change his mind about winning ASAP down the road.

[Chinook]

Well the Spurs had him guarding the best player on every team last season. They are doing the same this season. So the stats don't tell you everything. Obviously the Spurs, who know more about defense than any of us and the talent level of their defenders, demonstrated that he is the best individual defender on the team by assigning him to the toughest defensive assignments.

Who on the roster is a better individual defender than Sochan?

I don't know that Sochan is a good defender. Pop puts everyone on the best players. He put Simmons and Murray on guys, White and Lonnie, Keldon and Vassell. Just like Pop starting Sochan at PG is not at all evidence that Sochan is the best play-maker at the roster, I don't see the Spurs' defensive usage of Sochan to be an indicator of anything. In terms of pure one-on-one defense, Jones was definitely better. I'd argue that Richardson was just as good. Qualitatively Vassell has shown some kind of potential there too. I didn't see a ton of good from anyone on the roster last season, though. This year, Osman is probably the best defender on the perimeter, and that's sad.

[Drom John]

The Bulls NEVER ran a traditional PG under Big Chief Triangle. Kerr wasn't, nor was Paxson. They were spot up shooters that played off of Pip/MJ.

Never a starter, but 6th-man B.J. Armstrong played quite a bit with the starters.

[Kawhi Duncan]

Sochan is not the best defender on the team. His defensive rating was 9th best on the worst defensive team in the league last year. He's overrated in here and doesn't have stats to support the hype.

Agreed... He always gets cooked and he doesn't have great instincts

[rascal]

Agreed... He always gets cooked and he doesn't have great instincts

He doesn't jump very well and is not very quick, challenged athletically. Lacks blocked shots, for his size he should have block shots. Quicker players blow right past him. Also for his size not a strong rebounder.
What helps him is his height and length that's about it. He's athletically challenged

[exstatic]

funny
do you even watch games?
he jumps on any opponent's shot and has poor positioning in defense
this is definitely not great defense

And yet, he’s one of the most effective, intimidating shot blockers in the league. You can blow by him, and still get your shit pushed at the rim. Imagine when he learns positioning. He’ll be able to erase about 1/3 of the half court instead of like a paltry 1/4.

Every team’s offense knows exactly where Vic is, all of the time, and they bend their offense away from him.

[exstatic]

Never a starter, but 6th-man B.J. Armstrong played quite a bit with the starters.

BJ Armstrong dished a whopping 3.3 assists per game over his career. He was a 42.5% 3 point shooter, though.

Also, not a PG.

[Rocalcio]

Looks like you found your new scapegoat. Everybody was thrilled with him last year, and now he can't play basketball at all, he hates Wembanyama, he has a bad behavior...

You guys always need to complain about something, you're just pathetic...

[Ocotillo]

Sochan playing out of position is this year's ST Dejounte and Derrick need to start together. I was on that bandwagon and it was a dud once it was enacted.

[rascal]

Update: We have a PF. <<<<< From the first post

Going back to see who was excited to get Sochan and how many have changed on him.

Now Wemby has replaced him.

Sochan is a bench PF with this team or best traded

[SpurSpike]

Sochan playing the point is going to be rough but if things start to click it could be genius. You gotta remember he has NEVER played the point before and he is being asked to do that in a starting position at the NBA level. Its going to be rough but i think Sochan is mentally strong enough and has the tools to put it together.

We already know he fills the role of defensive enforcer, being the point guard is going to force him to become much more. Spurs must see something in him and believe that this is what is will take to push him to the next level.

If it doesn't work id like to see some lineup where he takes on the Draymond small ball 5 role. I think he would naturally do very well in that type of role.

[spurraider21]

We should run Bassey at point for defensive potential and then when he struggles just say it’s ok because he never played point guard before

[John B]

Sochan playing the point is going to be rough but if things start to click it could be genius. You gotta remember he has NEVER played the point before and he is being asked to do that in a starting position at the NBA level. Its going to be rough but i think Sochan is mentally strong enough and has the tools to put it together.

We already know he fills the role of defensive enforcer, being the point guard is going to force him to become much more. Spurs must see something in him and believe that this is what is will take to push him to the next level.

If it doesn't work id like to see some lineup where he takes on the Draymond small ball 5 role. I think he would naturally do very well in that type of role.

I don’t believe Sochan is being made ultimately as a PG, but more as a facilitator like Bobo did. Wemby is still developing and getting stronger, and Pop is taking this time to also develop Sochan as a capable facilitator, a big defensive facilitator. I think eventually they will get a true PG either by trade or draft. I too get impatient, and think that Sochan could be attacking the rim and earning FT’s like he did last year, which he has abandoned some for becoming a pass-first facilitator. An somewhat Wemby needs a true PG to find him and set him up. But I think we will have to be patient because Pop and Co are still evaluating, developing. They could care less about scores and wins. They are observing and will make decisions eventually to maximize Wemby and everybody’s skills to result W’s. Trust the process.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Part of being a point guard is being a threat. Sochan gives up to easily on attacking the paint using speed and size.

But that's true of the entire team, including Victor. Get denied even slightly and it's time to stop all momentum toward the basket. That's not how you hoop.

[mudyez]

Btw...not sure if someone said it already, but I think the idea is to make Sochan the next Bobo (which also played some pointguard early in his career) rather than the next Draymon.

[spurraider21]

it was easier for bobo to take guys off the dribble when he was being defended by bigs. its not like he was taking on guards off the dribble. and he was a way more skilled post player and scorer than sochan, by orders of magnitude

[Kawhi Duncan]

Btw...not sure if someone said it already, but I think the idea is to make Sochan the next Bobo (which also played some pointguard early in his career) rather than the next Draymon.

He was actually a PG tho... That's the difference... His position changed to forward after reaching the NBA... He naturally has good passing ability... Sohan doesn't

[exstatic]

it was easier for bobo to take guys off the dribble when he was being defended by bigs. its not like he was taking on guards off the dribble. and he was a way more skilled post player and scorer than sochan, by orders of magnitude

Not in his second year. He was considered a bust, and shipped out. Impatient folks in the ATL front office,just like here.

[rankingtear]

Doubt Wemby plays much center long term and his backup has little value. Sochan at PG is the only path to usefullness on this teams construction. FO and Pop knows this, fans fail to realize it. This needs to work or Sochan should be traded because there is a huge gap on his value on a trade and on this team.

[BacktoBasics]

Doubt Wemby plays much center long term and his backup has little value. Sochan at PG is the only path to usefullness on this teams construction. FO and Pop knows this, fans fail to realize it. This needs to work or Sochan should be traded because there is a huge gap on his value on a trade and on this team.

This is so egregious it’s borderline retarded. Why do the people here have to go to such an extreme view or nothing at all? Sure you can argue that there are questions about the amount of minutes Wemby will play center and how that works if Sochan is at the 4.

There are 48 minutes in a game. The real benefit of Sochan is his versatility in where he can fit on the court. It could be 5 minutes at PG with Wemby on the court. It could be 10 minutes at the 4 alongside Bassey. It could a quick spurt at the 3 if Wemby, Collins and Tre are on the floor at the same time.

The whole point with this team not making big moves and seeing what they got is to take a long term evaluation of fit and where. Without burying themselves in cap stress because they over leveraged simply to make flashy moves on paper.

That’s the thing fans here really fail to see.

Sochan at point doesn’t need to work or he gets traded. Developing and experimenting are the plan. I do not see Sochan as a long term solution at point. I don’t believe pop or the FO believes that either.

[rankingtear]

This is so egregious it’s borderline retarded. Why do the people here have to go to such an extreme view or nothing at all? Sure you can argue that there are questions about the amount of minutes Wemby will play center and how that works if Sochan is at the 4.

There are 48 minutes in a game. The real benefit of Sochan is his versatility in where he can fit on the court. It could be 5 minutes at PG with Wemby on the court. It could be 10 minutes at the 4 alongside Bassey. It could a quick spurt at the 3 if Wemby, Collins and Tre are on the floor at the same time.

The whole point with this team not making big moves and seeing what they got is to take a long term evaluation of fit and where. Without burying themselves in cap stress because they over leveraged simply to make flashy moves on paper.

That’s the thing fans here really fail to see.

That is still 21 min, 10 in his natural position. That is reduced further in a playoff series. Where starters play close to 40.

[TD 21]

Doubt Wemby plays much center long term and his backup has little value. Sochan at PG is the only path to usefullness on this teams construction. FO and Pop knows this, fans fail to realize it. This needs to work or Sochan should be traded because there is a huge gap on his value on a trade and on this team.

Like virtually all of the hybrid bigs, he'll almost certainly eventually transition to more of (exclusively?) C long term, the question is when.

Sochan can potentially get by as a nominal SF if they get a lead guard that's a laser, but even then, they'd be best off closing with the former at PF and Wembanyama at C.

[BacktoBasics]

That is still 21 min, 10 in his natural position. That is reduced further in a playoff series. Where starters play close to 40.

I wasn’t breaking down exactly how it should work. The league and every team in it are fluid in how minutes and positions are played out. It could be any number of combinations on any given night.

The takeaway wasn’t 21 minutes in this box 5 in this box 3 in this box.

The takeaway is that your assertion that Sochan had better figure out how to be a full time point guard or be traded for pennies on the dollar is absurd and without merit.

[spurraider21]

Doubt Wemby plays much center long term and his backup has little value. Sochan at PG is the only path to usefullness on this teams construction. FO and Pop knows this, fans fail to realize it. This needs to work or Sochan should be traded because there is a huge gap on his value on a trade and on this team.
sochan could still provide value off the bench if he comes in and plays with high energy and hustle. he could be the backup 4 to wemby, or play alongside wemby as the 4 in smaller lineups that we've already seen with wemby at the 5

those two roles alone would get him over 20 minutes per game and be a key player, if he plays at a good enough level. look at jeff green with denver last year in that role.

but its up to him to prove the draft pundits right, that he can come in and be an effective, disruptive, and versatile defender. his offense just needs to be opportunistic. good cuts (he already can do this), crash the boards, get out and run on the break. and if somebody can break down the defense and he gets the ball with space in front of him, he can take advantage of that with his solid ball handling and passing when the defense is already in recovery mode. i just dont think he's ever going to be the guy that causes the defense to get into recovery mode

[rascal]

Spurs need to add a true PG with pg skills and move Sochan to the bench or trade him. Sochan lost his starting position when the Spurs got Wemby.

Spurs need upgrades to the starting 1, 5 and need another wing player who can shoot to this roster. Sochan is no longer a good fit in the starting lineup if the Spurs want to play Wemby at PF. He's a backup now at his natural position.

People here get too attached to players on the roster even if they haven't proven anything yet.

[Spurs Homer]

Spurstalkers STILL dont get the concept of

POSITIONLESS nba basketball

and the word “experiment”

they freak out at this “outside the box” way of thinking….

wemby can roam and play wherever and sochan can be penciled in as “pg” but that is not really important

FOR NOW!

[JeffDuncan]

Spurstalkers STILL dont get the concept of

POSITIONLESS nba basketball
…




The “positionless basketball” theory has a fatal flaw. It requires that all five players be able to shoot and score equally well. Ain’t no such animal.

As a practical matter, it really does make a difference who shoots. For Sochan to play positionless basketball for the Spurs he’d have to be able to shoot and score as well as Vassell does, so it wouldn’t matter which one shoots.

But it does matter. And everybody knows it.

There’s no positionless basketball to be found on the Spurs, or anyplace else. Unless Kevon Looney has started shooting 3pters as well as Steph Curry and I just haven’t noticed.

[Spurs Homer]

The “positionless basketball” theory has a fatal flaw. It requires that all five players be able to shoot and score equally well. Ain’t no such animal.

As a practical matter, it really does make a difference who shoots. For Sochan to play positionless basketball for the Spurs he’d have to be able to shoot and score as well as Vassell does, so it wouldn’t matter which one shoots.

But it does matter. And everybody knows it.

There’s no positionless basketball to be found on the Spurs, or anyplace else. Unless Kevon Looney has started shooting 3pters as well as Steph Curry and I just haven’t noticed.

wrong

it requires that all 5 be able to guard all positions and handle the ball well enough to not turn it over

layups and mid rangers are all a player needs to be able to do - they dont even have to break down their opponent as the ball will just move until a shot opens

Warriors small ball worked enough and only curry/thompson were great shooters with raymond, looney, and others able to make 5 foot shots periodically

[JeffDuncan]

wrong

it requires that all 5 be able to guard all positions and handle the ball well enough to not turn it over
…



Um hm. Your personal concept of positionless basketball is that all five players must be equally good at guarding either Tyrese Maxey or Joel Embiid.

Spare me the crazy raving, ok? Just spare me.

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Spurs need to add a true PG with pg skills and move Sochan to the bench or trade him. Sochan lost his starting position when the Spurs got Wemby.

Spurs need upgrades to the starting 1, 5 and need another wing player who can shoot to this roster. Sochan is no longer a good fit in the starting lineup if the Spurs want to play Wemby at PF. He's a backup now at his natural position.

People here get too attached to players on the roster even if they haven't proven anything yet.
do you have ocd?
why do you post the same thing every day?
is this your ritual?

[Joseph Kony]

do you have ocd?
why do you post the same thing every day?
is this your ritual?
he is an admitted incel, he gets 0 pussy and hates his life. it's all he has. feel sorry for him tbh

[TD 21]

Spurstalkers STILL dont get the concept of

POSITIONLESS nba basketball

and the word “experiment”

they freak out at this “outside the box” way of thinking….

wemby can roam and play wherever and sochan can be penciled in as “pg” but that is not really important

FOR NOW!

That doesn't = doing ludicrous things like starting a 20 year old PF, who can't shoot, as the nominal PG, in a lineup featuring 1 + shooter as is.

That formula has no chance to be a functional half court offense, no matter how much experience they garner.

It hasn't even worked defensively or on the glass, since Collins is a sub par and Sochan a terrible rebounder.

[SPURt]

1722634859238072324

[playbonner15]

1722634859238072324
i frequently see media say that Jeremy is fearless... good to hear another player confirm it. He sucks as a PG though :lol but he's young, and Spurs are not in win now mode so im not worried

[Obstructed_View]

Part of being a point guard is being a threat. Sochan gives up to easily on attacking the paint using speed and size.

But that's true of the entire team, including Victor. Get denied even slightly and it's time to stop all momentum toward the basket. That's not how you hoop.



it was easier for bobo to take guys off the dribble when he was being defended by bigs. its not like he was taking on guards off the dribble. and he was a way more skilled post player and scorer than sochan, by orders of magnitude

Do you fucking people even watch basketball?

[Atl Spur]

i frequently see media say that Jeremy is fearless... good to hear another player confirm it. He sucks as a PG though :lol but he's young, and Spurs are not in win now mode so im not worried

It’s easy to see if you put things in perspective; most posters here don’t. I basically said these things a few days ago…….

[tim_duncan_fan]

Do you fucking people even watch basketball?

Oh, so you think we have been seeing NBA-level dribble-drive game? lmao

No one on the team currently can consistently pull off a normal NBA dribble move and get in the paint.

[spurraider21]

Do you fucking people even watch basketball?
What an insightful contribution to the discussion.

do you have a specific disagreement with what i said?

[rankingtear]

This is so egregious it’s borderline retarded. Why do the people here have to go to such an extreme view or nothing at all? Sure you can argue that there are questions about the amount of minutes Wemby will play center and how that works if Sochan is at the 4.

There are 48 minutes in a game. The real benefit of Sochan is his versatility in where he can fit on the court. It could be 5 minutes at PG with Wemby on the court. It could be 10 minutes at the 4 alongside Bassey. It could a quick spurt at the 3 if Wemby, Collins and Tre are on the floor at the same time.

The whole point with this team not making big moves and seeing what they got is to take a long term evaluation of fit and where. Without burying themselves in cap stress because they over leveraged simply to make flashy moves on paper.

That’s the thing fans here really fail to see.

Sochan at point doesn’t need to work or he gets traded. Developing and experimenting are the plan. I do not see Sochan as a long term solution at point. I don’t believe pop or the FO believes that either.

It only takes 1 team that see him as a starter for my take to not be retarded.

[rankingtear]

Oh, so you think we have been seeing NBA-level dribble-drive game? lmao

No one on the team currently can consistently pull off a normal NBA dribble move and get in the paint.

What is a normal dribble move?

[KobesAchilles]

I mean Sochan being a bench player isn’t a bad thing. He was a bench player at Baylor. I don’t know why after having Gino on the bench for most of his career it would be seen as a bad thing. You need a good bench to win championships. Sochan could be a very strong contributor to a championship level team off the bench. He has a high motor, he doesn’t get rattled easily, he flys all about the place and plays decent defense, and is a good rebounder as well. He has flaws, he still can’t really shoot, or post up, and has no midrange, but that’s ok bc he can fit in a good offensive system with movement, good ball handling for a PF, and heady cuts to the basket.

IMO we have a good young piece in Sochan who could develop into something more. But not like this. Give him tasks he can actually complete. He was never going to be a PG in one year. He was never going to be one in 2-3 years. But he could develop a 3 point shot in that time frame. He could learn team defense in that time and be our MLB on the court. Draymond was a bench player too to start. And if that’s what we are hoping he becomes then give him time to become that but also small incremental steps. Ok Sochan, work on reading the other teams offense so you can position yourself better on defense. Ok work on your 3 point shot in the corner so they can’t leave you alone. Alright work on when to cut and what angles to take off on. Just things like this would turn him into such a better player.

[R. DeMurre]

Basketball Reference's percentages for players and their different positions has always struck me as kind of arbitrary and often just wrong, but Sochan's #s this year are especially egregious: they list him as a SF 56% of the time and at PF 44%. They have him at zero minutes at PG. It's obviously difficult to nail down to an exact science, as switches happen constantly, but nobody really following the Spurs is going to argue that Sochan has spent zero time at PG this year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sochaje01.html

[exstatic]

I mean Sochan being a bench player isn’t a bad thing. He was a bench player at Baylor. I don’t know why after having Gino on the bench for most of his career it would be seen as a bad thing. You need a good bench to win championships. Sochan could be a very strong contributor to a championship level team off the bench. He has a high motor, he doesn’t get rattled easily, he flys all about the place and plays decent defense, and is a good rebounder as well. He has flaws, he still can’t really shoot, or post up, and has no midrange, but that’s ok bc he can fit in a good offensive system with movement, good ball handling for a PF, and heady cuts to the basket.

IMO we have a good young piece in Sochan who could develop into something more. But not like this. Give him tasks he can actually complete. He was never going to be a PG in one year. He was never going to be one in 2-3 years. But he could develop a 3 point shot in that time frame. He could learn team defense in that time and be our MLB on the court. Draymond was a bench player too to start. And if that’s what we are hoping he becomes then give him time to become that but also small incremental steps. Ok Sochan, work on reading the other teams offense so you can position yourself better on defense. Ok work on your 3 point shot in the corner so they can’t leave you alone. Alright work on when to cut and what angles to take off on. Just things like this would turn him into such a better player.

So, you want to take the second best defender out of the SL, when this team has HUGE problems with digging themselves deep holes early in the game. Mmmmkay.

[Obstructed_View]

What an insightful contribution to the discussion.

do you have a specific disagreement with what i said?
You are comparing 20 year old Sochan with Diaw, who was 23 when he ran point with Phoenix and 30 when he came to the Spurs. Frankly, I could have randomly typed letters and numbers and it would be as insightful as your post.

[Obstructed_View]

Basketball Reference's percentages for players and their different positions has always struck me as kind of arbitrary and often just wrong, but Sochan's #s this year are especially egregious: they list him as a SF 56% of the time and at PF 44%. They have him at zero minutes at PG. It's obviously difficult to nail down to an exact science, as switches happen constantly, but nobody really following the Spurs is going to argue that Sochan has spent zero time at PG this year.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sochaje01.html
Running the point and being a guard are two different things. Keldon and Devin would be guards in the SL, right?

[Obstructed_View]

What is a normal dribble move?
It's something upper-eschelon guards do to break down defenses. The Spurs haven't had someone who can do that since Tony Parker left.

[spursparker9]

It's something upper-eschelon guards do to break down defenses. The Spurs haven't had someone who can do that since Tony Parker left.

Even if cannot break down defenses, minimally must have a decent mid-range shots. No PG can survive long in the league without at least a decent mid-range shot.

[rankingtear]

It's something upper-eschelon guards do to break down defenses. The Spurs haven't had someone who can do that since Tony Parker left.

Interesting. The top 2 contenders have none of those and are dead last in drives. Why is that?

[tim_duncan_fan]

What is a normal dribble move?

Any simple crossover that any typical guard will do in the middle of a game when they want to try to get around a defender and go to the hoop. We are lacking simple ball handling from the guard/wing positions.

[R. DeMurre]

Running the point and being a guard are two different things. Keldon and Devin would be guards in the SL, right?


I think most people would say Devin is the SG and Keldon is the SF.

[The Truth #6]

Devin and Keldon have improved their handle for what it's worth.

[KobesAchilles]

So, you want to take the second best defender out of the SL, when this team has HUGE problems with digging themselves deep holes early in the game. Mmmmkay.
I mean the defense is historically bad with him. He isn’t a great defender or a game changer that way anyways. But yes I would put him on the bench. Ideally I guess you could bench KJ and keep Sochan as a 4. But offensively I don’t know how that would work with Wemby. It would be better than this shit show though.

[Chomag]

He is a high energy guy which would be perfect off the bench, it's strange that it seems a must to start him and even shoehorning him in to do so

I really think he would shine as the 6th man with his high energy and with his ability to ruffle some of the opponents feathers

[poopbox]

The 30 for 30 on how Sochan had a nervous breakdown in the middle of the season cause his senile 70 year old coach thought making him a point guard was a good idea is going to be epic tbh

[Raven]

I like his play a lot. He's improving every game.

[tbdog]

He is a high energy guy which would be perfect off the bench, it's strange that it seems a must to start him and even shoehorning him in to do so

I really think he would shine as the 6th man with his high energy and with his ability to ruffle some of the opponents feathers

Plenty of high energy guys start.

[TheGreatYacht]

https://i.ibb.co/SnnG04x/Desktop-Screenshot-2023-11-15-19-44-11-55.png

[rascal]

I thought mason was 6’7”. Dude guarded PGs to hakeem.

Salley was versatile, probably couldn’t dribble like sochan but can run the floor and shoot mid rangers just as good. Better post up game too. And he’s 6’11”. Laimbeer was 7’ tall and was plenty versatile on offence and defence. Horace grant was quite versatile too. Vlade divac, maybe not as versatile nor as good defensively but much better offensively. Shawn kemp was great but was much better offensively. Derrick Mckey. Detlef Schrempt. I wouldn’t call anyone superstars other than Shawn kemp and all of them were not as good as abedayo or Draymond, except maybe kemp.

Derek Coleman, Vin Baker

[exstatic]

Derek Coleman, Vin Baker

Derrick Coleman might have been a top 10 player all time if he weren’t a drunk. He was that good. Like Vin Baker, alcohol just destroyed his career.

[wildbill2u]

So, you want to take the second best defender out of the SL, when this team has HUGE problems with digging themselves deep holes early in the game. Mmmmkay.

You usually can come up with some statistics that you find somewhere to back up your observations. Is he REALLY the second best defender on the team or SL.??? In just my personal observations on games I have watched, he didn't seem that great.If we don't have some defender that is better than Sochan, perhaps that is the problem with this team. Or maybe his playing out of position is part of the defensive lapses I've seen.

I bet you can come up with the stats tho. You might want to look at the chart below posted by the Great Yacht . I don't know if it will help, but it shows sochan in the lead for something, eh?

[scott]

You usually can come up with some statistics that you find somewhere to back up your observations. Is he REALLY the second best defender on the team or SL.??? In just my personal observations on games I have watched, he didn't seem that great.If we don't have some defender that is better than Sochan, perhaps that is the problem with this team. Or maybe his playing out of position is part of the defensive lapses I've seen.

I bet you can come up with the stats tho. You might want to look at the chart below posted by the Great Yacht . I don't know if it will help, but it shows sochan in the lead for something, eh?

I think this board generally overrates the defensive prowess of both Sochan and Vassell. Maybe they are some of the top defenders on the team, but this team is historically bad on defense, so is that really saying much?

[The Truth #6]

I think there are some players on the team that can do well with individual defense, but overall, the whole team sucks at team defense. Though I suppose Jones probably is the best team defender as far as knowing where to go and not be a moron about rotations.

[objective]

Everytime someone actually targets Jones I feel like he gets smoked

Jones being a better option than Sochan isn't high praise. I don't know if he's even a top 40 "point guard" or principal initiator.

[Seventyniner]

I think this board generally overrates the defensive prowess of both Sochan and Vassell. Maybe they are some of the top defenders on the team, but this team is historically bad on defense, so is that really saying much?

Not to single you out but I gotta push back against this narrative.

The Spurs defense last year (and so far this year) was historically bad in terms of raw DRtg. But it wasn't the worst of all time in terms of how far their DRtg was above league average, above being bad.

Last year the league average DRtg (which is equal to the league average ORtg) was 114.8. The Spurs' was 120.0, 4.5% above the average.

In 2018-2019 the league average DRtg was 110.4 and the worst DRtg in the league (Cleveland) was 117.6, 6.5% above the average.

Both by raw points (2022-2023 Spurs +5.2, 2018-2019 Cavs +7.2) and by percentages (shown above) that Cavs defense was a lot worse than the Spurs.

None of this is meant to excuse the Spurs piss-poor defense last year and so far this year. But it has been just plain bad, not historically so.

[scott]

Not to single you out but I gotta push back against this narrative.

The Spurs defense last year (and so far this year) was historically bad in terms of raw DRtg. But it wasn't the worst of all time in terms of how far their DRtg was above league average, above being bad.

Last year the league average DRtg (which is equal to the league average ORtg) was 114.8. The Spurs' was 120.0, 4.5% above the average.

In 2018-2019 the league average DRtg was 110.4 and the worst DRtg in the league (Cleveland) was 117.6, 6.5% above the average.

Both by raw points (2022-2023 Spurs +5.2, 2018-2019 Cavs +7.2) and by percentages (shown above) that Cavs defense was a lot worse than the Spurs.

None of this is meant to excuse the Spurs piss-poor defense last year and so far this year. But it has been just plain bad, not historically so.

While I concede this point, I will say that if we have to qualify HOW we are historically bad, we've already lost.

[spursparker9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF0YlBfvBWg

[SouthernFryd]

Putting Socham as Point Guard was Pop's way of guaranteeing a Lottery Pick.

Socham is NOT a point. You know it, I know it, Socham knows it, Pop Knows it.

Putting Socham as point guard puts us in the lottery for next year. That's CIA Pops grand plan. That BETTER be Pop's grand plan, cuz there is no other excuse for doing it.

Pop is a jerk.

[NASpurs]

Putting Socham as Point Guard was Pop's way of guaranteeing a Lottery Pick.

Socham is NOT a point. You know it, I know it, Socham knows it, Pop Knows it.

Putting Socham as point guard puts us in the lottery for next year. That's CIA Pops grand plan.

F him.

That's giving Pop too much credit saying it's his grand plan for this team to suck ass for a high draft pick. :lol The old man is lost and doesn't know where he is. Nothing says perennial losers like purposely losing for a high draft pick when you already have your generational guy.

[SouthernFryd]

That's giving Pop too much credit saying it's his grand plan for this team to suck ass for a high draft pick. :lol The old man is lost and doesn't know where he is. Nothing says perennial losers like purposely losing for a high draft pick when you already have your generational guy.

There is no other reason for Socham to be a point. He's not one and everyone, including Pop, knows it. The ONLY reason to do it, is to tank the season. Remember, Robinson couldn't do it alone. Duncan couldn't either. Nor can Wemby. Need another super-star.

Tanking the season is a way to do it and putting Socham at point ensures it. It's the only strategy that makes any sense whatsoever. I don't agree with it, but pops an asshole...he would do it in a heartbeat.

[RC_Drunkford]

I swear sniffers will spin anything Pop does as a genius plan. Maybe he's just a bad coach. Ever thought of that?

[spursparker9]

Putting Socham as Point Guard was Pop's way of guaranteeing a Lottery Pick.

Socham is NOT a point. You know it, I know it, Socham knows it, Pop Knows it.

Putting Socham as point guard puts us in the lottery for next year. That's CIA Pops grand plan. That BETTER be Pop's grand plan, cuz there is no other excuse for doing it.

Pop is a jerk.

:lol

Remember this is the Pop that keep give Bryn Fores lot of minutes.

[Mugen]

Jeremy needs to ask for a trade ASAP. What the old man is doing to his career is absolutely criminal. Get the fuck out of this clown, Jeremy.

[JeffDuncan]

There is no other reason for Socham to be a point. …



Of course there’s another reason. Pop is a moron.

He really, truly thought that having Sochan out there would make the team significantly stronger on defense. And Pop thought that Sochan would be okay at pg if he didn’t try to do too much.

What could go wrong?

[TheChillFactor]

i'd rather watch Primo at point than bullshit. Like, tomorrow night.

[ElNono]

i'd rather watch Primo naked at point than bullshit. Like, tomorrow night.

fify

[z0sa]

Of course there’s another reason. Pop is a moron.

He really, truly thought that having Sochan out there would make the team significantly stronger on defense. And Pop thought that Sochan would be okay at pg if he didn’t try to do too much.

What could go wrong?

I think therein really lies the issue. For Sochan to succeed, Pop needs to be about 1000% more on his ass. Instead, he's taken the opposite approach, with predictable results.

[tbdog]

i'd rather watch Primo at point than bullshit. Like, tomorrow night.

The dude had a good game. Not a game to look at and blame it on him.

[Splits]

1725743293160427536

[spursparker9]

1725743293160427536

https://media.tenor.com/3RaRvT5N884AAAAM/omg-wow.gif

[TD 21]

There is no other reason for Socham to be a point. He's not one and everyone, including Pop, knows it. The ONLY reason to do it, is to tank the season. Remember, Robinson couldn't do it alone. Duncan couldn't either. Nor can Wemby. Need another super-star.

Tanking the season is a way to do it and putting Socham at point ensures it. It's the only strategy that makes any sense whatsoever. I don't agree with it, but pops an asshole...he would do it in a heartbeat.

Apparently you didn't see the '03 Spurs.

[vander]

Jeremy should ask to come off the bench, he can't possibly be enjoying this

[spurraider21]

Bench pf who either comes in for wemby or plays alongside him in small lineups. So easy. He’s clearly an nba player but totally out of his element

[KobesAchilles]

Bench pf who either comes in for wemby or plays alongside him in small lineups. So easy. He’s clearly an nba player but totally out of his element
Shit was really obvious before the season even started. A lot of stupid people on this board tho (even dumber than myself) who pretend to know shit and get all pissy when you point out how stupid they are. Like people here (a lot of fucking people btw) honestly beloved that playing PG was easy. That any player could do it. I lost count of how many people argued for “positionless basketball” which never really works. Or Tall ball or PG by committee. They stood on their tower yelling and calling out any fan who dared argued the obvious. Sochan isn’t a PG whether it’s now or 5 years from now. Dude can’t shoot. We need shooters to surround Wemby. He’s a bench player PF

[SouthernFryd]

Apparently you didn't see the '03 Spurs.

You mean the season that Duncan had Manu and Parker...as well as Horry, Bowen, etc..etc..?

Kinda proves my point. Robinson and Duncan couldn't to it without other superstars to help them. So, like I said, Pop may want to tank the season and get another lottery pick. To get another superstar.

[Atl Spur]

Jeremy is growing and will be better for this experience in the future. Growth hurts and takes time, be patient young jedis!

[exstatic]

Shit was really obvious before the season even started. A lot of stupid people on this board tho (even dumber than myself) who pretend to know shit and get all pissy when you point out how stupid they are. Like people here (a lot of fucking people btw) honestly beloved that playing PG was easy. That any player could do it. I lost count of how many people argued for “positionless basketball” which never really works. Or Tall ball or PG by committee. They stood on their tower yelling and calling out any fan who dared argued the obvious. Sochan isn’t a PG whether it’s now or 5 years from now. Dude can’t shoot. We need shooters to surround Wemby. He’s a bench player PF

Jeremy is currently shooting 42% from beyond the arc. If you’re going to call him a failed PG after 13 games, I get to call him an elite shooter after 13 games.

[RC_Drunkford]

You mean the season that Duncan had Manu and Parker...as well as Horry, Bowen, etc..etc..?

Kinda proves my point. Robinson and Duncan couldn't to it without other superstars to help them. So, like I said, Pop may want to tank the season and get another lottery pick. To get another superstar.

You obviously never watched the 03 Spurs cause Horry wasn't on that team. Manu was a rookie averaging 8 PPG, Robinson was over the hill putting up 10/10 and Parker was a sophomore who had to get benched for Speedy Claxton. This was one of the biggest carrying a team jobs in NBA history by Tim Duncan

[spurraider21]

Jeremy is currently shooting 42% from beyond the arc. If you’re going to call him a failed PG after 13 games, I get to call him an elite shooter after 13 games.
19 total 3 point attempts is a different type of sample size compared to 13 games playing a specific position