Spurs Select F Jeremy Sochan with the 9th Pick in the 2022 NBA Draft

[Pauleta14]

I'm not going into ur mad convo, it'll be my last answer

You still don't get the point, you talk about "a series of diff stats" as if you were making a point when you're confirming mine. One or a (selected) series of stats doesn't change the fact that not only it'll always be a fraction of the whole picture but even if you had all the data potentially available it would'nt teach you more than what your eyes can see, because humans aren't robots and too many aspects of the games and human behavior aren't possible to transcribe.

What data can tell you a player is clumsy (like Sochan is) for ex? Only your eyes can.

The point is stop thinking coming with some data can make you win an argument, it's insane even if it's a habit in the NBA world.

Try to be humble maybe?

Maybe stop, like too many on ST, acting like whoever has a diff opinion is a hater or doesn't know shit? It's fine to disagree, in the end one of us will be right, the other wrong and we'll go to the next topic.

As for Tre, you said a lot more than that, you were defending the fact that he should be part of the core and be extended as he represented a quality option as a backup PG. I said at that time and even more today that it was insane to envision keeping a player that had so many limitations on both sides of the court but you kept coming with your "data". Your only argument being as usual that I didn't "backup my claim with stats" as if watching Tre Jones being embarrased on D or a liability on O required any.

Lastly, regarding Sochan, the fact that after 3 seasons you think that the issue is that he isn't being coached properly is ... WTF Ok he has some excuses but he also has had a lot more help and advantages than the average rookie entering the league. PATFO literary offered him the starting position that even in college he never had!

People don't change, Sochan issues/limitations aren't just basketball/skill related and he's shown those enough in 3 years.

His ceiling is a defensive plug-in role player if he manages to be decent at shooting open 3s. He can't be seen as part of the core of a team, he would by default lower the IQ average of said team, which is a lack of ambition to me.

Spurs can find a lot better to develop with a lot higher floor.

[ambchang]

I'm not going into ur mad convo, it'll be my last answer

You still don't get the point, you talk about "a series of diff stats" as if you were making a point when you're confirming mine. One or a (selected) series of stats doesn't change the fact that not only it'll always be a fraction of the whole picture but even if you had all the data potentially available it would'nt teach you more than what your eyes can see, because humans aren't robots and too many aspects of the games and human behavior aren't possible to transcribe.

What data can tell you a player is clumsy (like Sochan is) for ex? Only your eyes can.

The point is stop thinking coming with some data can make you win an argument, it's insane even if it's a habit in the NBA world.

Try to be humble maybe?

Maybe stop, like too many on ST, acting like whoever has a diff opinion is a hater or doesn't know shit? It's fine to disagree, in the end one of us will be right, the other wrong and we'll go to the next topic.

As for Tre, you said a lot more than that, you were defending the fact that he should be part of the core and be extended as he represented a quality option as a backup PG. I said at that time and even more today that it was insane to envision keeping a player that had so many limitations on both sides of the court but you kept coming with your "data". Your only argument being as usual that I didn't "backup my claim with stats" as if watching Tre Jones being embarrased on D or a liability on O wasn't enough.

Lastly, regarding Sochan, the fact that after 3 seasons you think that the issue is that he isn't being coached properly is ... WTF Ok he has some excuses but he also has had a lot more help and advantages than the average rookie entering the league. PATFO literary offered him the starting position that even in college he never had!

People don't change, Sochan issues/limitations aren't just basketball/skill related and he's shown those enough in 3 years.

His ceiling is a defensive plug-in role player if he manages to be decent at shooting open 3s. He can't be seen as part of the core of a team, he would by default lower the IQ average of said team, which is a lack of ambition to me.

Spurs can find a lot better to develop with a lot higher floor.

Just absolutely making shit up as you go. I said do not just dump tre last year because he’s the only guy who can play point and hed be a great backup point in the future. If you want to interpret it as saying hes a core then feel free, but nobody other than you would interpret it this way.

As for stats you have brought in nothing. Your original assertion than sochan will benefit without wemby is already shown statistically to be untrue, and it wasn’t even the first time, but instead of admitting you were wrong you started taking about how to use stats despite showing time and time again Yiu have zero ability to even understand the most basic of statistics, while bringing absolutely nothing to back up your claim. At the same time telling others to be humble while having no ability to even comprehend any other point of view consistently over a long period of time.

Just for the record, sochan isn’t a core in the strongest sense but he’s not someone you should just get rid of because he didn’t pass the humility filled pauletta14 eye test. He is a useful player on a team, either as an energy guy or a defender. He can be a fifth cog on the wheel or a sixth man. He has improved his chemistry with wemby but his lack of shooting is a huge problem because he clogs the lane. That said his defense is helping the team more than not.

[Obstructed_View]

Jeremy just refusing to shoot when open and people in here just determined to assert that he has been working on his jumpshot. If that's the case then the Spurs need to fire their shooting coach out of a canon into the sun.

[Pauleta14]

Jeremy just refusing to shoot when open and people in here just determined to assert that he has been working on his jumpshot. If that's the case then the Spurs need to fire their shooting coach out of a canon into the sun.

There's clearly an emotional factor that prevent any rational exchange with Sochan's defenders, they're just attached to the dude and refuse defeat.

[RC_Drunkford]

Jeremy just refusing to shoot when open and people in here just determined to assert that he has been working on his jumpshot. If that's the case then the Spurs need to fire their shooting coach out of a canon into the sun.

the only person claiming that is exstatic (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=20) . He also said Vassell has turned a corner. Go figure :lol

[The Truth #6]

Jeremy is going to look a lot worse without Wemby. He refuses to try and score. Unfortunately, the Rodman comparison continues in a way I didn't expect. He looked great for his Polish team. But things now are trending in a less desirable direction. Still like him as a player but not blind to reality. It's funny how Biyombo comes in and is immediately useful. I think Wright drifted too far away from having any big men with normal big men skills.

[Gagnrath]

Jeremy is going to look a lot worse without Wemby. He refuses to try and score. Unfortunately, the Rodman comparison continues in a way I didn't expect. He looked great for his Polish team. But things now are trending in a less desirable direction. Still like him as a player but not blind to reality. It's funny how Biyombo comes in and is immediately useful. I think Wright drifted too far away from having any big men with normal big men skills.


Personally I think that Sochan needs to have a role and a goal. To often it seems that he's just told to go make good things happen. That clearly isn't going to work. Can we please as a team start to have some structure.

[Gandalf]

Sochan desperately needs to work hard with Castle’s shooting coach (or another one like Chip Englund, etc.). Otherwise, his career is guaranteed to be much shorter and less successful than it could be.

[KobesAchilles]

Wheres the person who said we should give the guy 100 million at? Cricket cricket. Dude just makes up his own MLE number for no apparent reason and then says the Spurs have to go higher than his already higher than reality MLE contract. I’d offer 4 years 48 million and see if anybody matches. If so, then I’d offer him the MLE contract of 1$14 million per year and just be done with it.

People on this site want ALL our bench players making 20+ million apparently:lol

[Seventyniner]

I'm still here, and I still think Sochan would get a full MLE contract (77/4) from another team if he hits free agency. Teams pay up for potential all the time and Sochan will only be 23 at that point.

From the Spurs POV, if 77/4 is worthwhile then adding a 5th year is also, making the contract 90/5.

I don't think Sochan will be a bench player on an actualized Spurs contender. Fox/Castle/upgraded SF/Sochan/Wemby is a fine lineup.

[ambchang]

Personally I think that Sochan needs to have a role and a goal. To often it seems that he's just told to go make good things happen. That clearly isn't going to work. Can we please as a team start to have some structure.

I agree with this. Sochan is a role player and as such would require a role. The issue is he is being asked to be all the roles. Ball handling, backup centre, perimeter defender, interior defender, cutter, shooting corner threes, screen and role guy, etc. hes good at a few things, so get him working on those and if you want to add other skills work on them one at a time, first in practice, then slowly into the game.

This guy isn’t some basketball prodigy who can do random things because you told him to, he’s a hustle player who is willing to do whatever you tell him to. Let him stick to role player stuff, then work from there.

[ambchang]

Jeremy is going to look a lot worse without Wemby. He refuses to try and score. Unfortunately, the Rodman comparison continues in a way I didn't expect. He looked great for his Polish team. But things now are trending in a less desirable direction. Still like him as a player but not blind to reality. It's funny how Biyombo comes in and is immediately useful. I think Wright drifted too far away from having any big men with normal big men skills.

Are you sure though? Better check with Pauleta14 with humility so that he can grace you with his eye test conclusions that is the be all and end all of basketball discussions.

[The Truth #6]

Are you sure though? Better check with Pauleta14 with humility so that he can grace you with his eye test conclusions that is the be all and end all of basketball discussions.

Lol.

[scott]

Wheres the person who said we should give the guy 100 million at? Cricket cricket. Dude just makes up his own MLE number for no apparent reason and then says the Spurs have to go higher than his already higher than reality MLE contract. I’d offer 4 years 48 million and see if anybody matches. If so, then I’d offer him the MLE contract of 1$14 million per year and just be done with it.

People on this site want ALL our bench players making 20+ million apparently:lol

Yeah, I think the play here is to not extend Jeremy at all this summer and let him hit RFA on the QO, though I'm not sure what impact that will have on our ability to do other things in the Summer of 26 (unless we move Vassell and Keldon, we won't have a lot of room to do anything else anyway, tbh). His Cap Hold for RFA is currently listed as $21.5MM on Spotrac, but I don't know if that gets adjusted down to his QO when it happens, I'm not too polished on that part of the cap.

Tell Jeremy that all we can do right now is 4/48, but we understand if he wants to just play it out in Year 4 and earn a bigger deal, which we'll be happy to play if he improves.

I like Jeremy's trajectory - but not enough to chase his potential and make another Vassell-level mistake.

[Pauleta14]

Jeremy is going to look a lot worse without Wemby. He refuses to try and score. Unfortunately, the Rodman comparison continues in a way I didn't expect. He looked great for his Polish team. But things now are trending in a less desirable direction. Still like him as a player but not blind to reality. It's funny how Biyombo comes in and is immediately useful. I think Wright drifted too far away from having any big men with normal big men skills.

I was (wrongly) expecting him to look better without Wemby bc I had in mind the way he was used when Wemby had a slow start and little PT to start the season

Since then he's become a bench playe, Fox has arrived and Castle blossomed. He's doomed now bc he won't get the easy P&R he used to have

[Pauleta14]

Are you sure though? Better check with Pauleta14 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=15128) with humility so that he can grace you with his eye test conclusions that is the be all and end all of basketball discussions.

You're such an idiot, I exposed all your points and you had nothing to come back with.

Go study stats

[ambchang]

You're such an idiot, I exposed all your points and you had nothing to come back with.

Go study stats

For someone who never used any stats to backup his arguments, and actually said stats can be selectively used to prove any point (true) but somehow was never able to find any stats to prove his point, coupled with the countless times in which he has misinterpreted stats, it is insanely rich for you to suggest people to go study stats.


If you can look at the thread with humility, you will notice that your eye test isn’t as incredible as you think, which is also why you are not a professional scout because if your eye tests are so incredible you’d be pulling in millions watching basketball instead of having to pay for whatever subscription to watch the game on TV.

Your points about usage or stats would be applicable if you’d be able to find other stats to dispute the point and show that those are exceptions, which would be valid, but fact is there are multiple stats from different sources showing something contrary to what you assert, so the reasonable conclusion is that your assertion is incorrect and the onus is on you to prove otherwise. Then your only counter point is :cry muh eye test :cry just shows how little you actually know about not just statistics, but the overall concept of debate.

Using sweeping generalizations on how statistics could be misinterpreted would’ve been valid as an overall statement, but it isn’t a counterpoint. A counterpoint would be to show statistics that support your standpoint and then any reasonable person would be able to debate the validity of data points and why they differ. Despite saying you can use stats to prove anything, you are unable to come up with any stats to support your point, not this time, not ever (that I can recall).


As such, your only recourse is to grandstand and call those who call you out a Karen (again clearly showing you don’t understand the term), an idiot, and then somehow declare victory with no counterpoints because others who don’t agree with you should submit to you and your eye tests with humility as if you are an expert in anything.

To top it off, you immediately did a 180 after two games; and threw in some weak excuse as if you didn’t spend all this time avoid stating your reasoning as to why sochan would benefit from the absence of wemby, even though anyone who has any reasonable cognitive skills would be able to deduce that most people would benefit immensely by playing with someone of Wembys gravity and skills.

The amount of stupidity that you have exhibited in a few posts is absolutely astounding, most people can’t even do it if they tried but you can just naturally do so many thing wrong without much effort. For that I commend you.

[Obstructed_View]

There's clearly an emotional factor that prevent any rational exchange with Sochan's defenders, they're just attached to the dude and refuse defeat.
I have been a Baylor fan since forever. I love Jeremy. I think he gets far too much blame for things that go wrong.

That said, I think two things are true:

1. He's very inconsistent.
2. He's exactly the same player he was when he was drafted.

Since basically nobody but Julian has improved at basketball since arriving in San Antonio, I'm putting blame on the culture, because it has sucked since right before Timmy left as a coach.

[Obstructed_View]

That’s not even remotely true.
How would you know?

[Ice009]

I have been a Baylor fan since forever. I love Jeremy. I think he gets far too much blame for things that go wrong.

That said, I think two things are true:

1. He's very inconsistent.
2. He's exactly the same player he was when he was drafted.

Since basically nobody but Julian has improved at basketball since arriving in San Antonio, I'm putting blame on the culture, because it has sucked since right before Timmy left as a coach.

So you think it has gone downhill since before Tim left his stint coaching? I didn't follow the team too closely back then. Can't even remember who was on the team. What year was it that TD coached?

[spurraider21]

I have been a Baylor fan since forever. I love Jeremy. I think he gets far too much blame for things that go wrong.

That said, I think two things are true:

1. He's very inconsistent.
2. He's exactly the same player he was when he was drafted.

Since basically nobody but Julian has improved at basketball since arriving in San Antonio, I'm putting blame on the culture, because it has sucked since right before Timmy left as a coach.
i'd say sochan's interior footwork/scoring has gotten a lot better

but yeah. my thinking is... if sochan left the team in the offseaosn (i know he's not a free agent), how much would the team struggle due to his absence and how difficult would it be to fill his rotation spot?

[z0sa]

The problem is Sochan should be a SF who plays big for his position but has none of the offensive skills, especially shooting, expected nowadays for that. He's decent as a power forward but doesn't have the bulk or height to defend large guys in the lane and doesn't block shots really. As a C, it's just a joke.

Thus, his best trait is his perimeter defense, which again would be great if he could be a SF who crossmatched, who had a corner 3, etc instead of being pigeonholed into small-ball after small-ball lineup because he simply isn't guarded even 8-10 feet from the basket.

[mystargtr34]

The problem is Sochan should be a SF who plays big for his position but has none of the offensive skills, especially shooting, expected nowadays for that. He's decent as a power forward but doesn't have the bulk or height to defend large guys in the lane and doesn't block shots really. As a C, it's just a joke.

Thus, his best trait is his perimeter defense, which again would be great if he could be a SF who crossmatched, who had a corner 3, etc instead of being pigeonholed into small-ball after small-ball lineup because he simply isn't guarded even 8-10 feet from the basket.

Agree. I’ve been saying Sochans most valuable position would be as a big 3 who guards the best player 1 through 4. Problem is he needs to have at least a respected corner 3 for that otherwise he just clogs everything for everyone. He could play the dunker/cutter spot like Aaron Gordon, Amen Thompson, Derrick Jones Jr, Jalen McDaniels but they all gave at least a respectable jumper except for mayb Amen but he’s a freak athlete which Sochan is not.

[Pauleta14]

I have been a Baylor fan since forever. I love Jeremy. I think he gets far too much blame for things that go wrong.

That said, I think two things are true:

1. He's very inconsistent.
2. He's exactly the same player he was when he was drafted.

Since basically nobody but Julian has improved at basketball since arriving in San Antonio, I'm putting blame on the culture, because it has sucked since right before Timmy left as a coach.

And players' development



The problem is Sochan should be a SF who plays big for his position but has none of the offensive skills, especially shooting, expected nowadays for that. He's decent as a power forward but doesn't have the bulk or height to defend large guys in the lane and doesn't block shots really. As a C, it's just a joke.

Thus, his best trait is his perimeter defense, which again would be great if he could be a SF who crossmatched, who had a corner 3, etc instead of being pigeonholed into small-ball after small-ball lineup because he simply isn't guarded even 8-10 feet from the basket.

You summed up perfectly why he's so hard to be used.

Whatever situation or position he's put in he'll present a handicap for the team ultimately.

And we're just playing RS games, just imagine in PO situations where teams actually scout and game plan, he'd make it too easy for our opp

[rankingtear]

Agree. I’ve been saying Sochans most valuable position would be as a big 3 who guards the best player 1 through 4. Problem is he needs to have at least a respected corner 3 for that otherwise he just clogs everything for everyone. He could play the dunker/cutter spot like Aaron Gordon, Amen Thompson, Derrick Jones Jr, Jalen McDaniels but they all gave at least a respectable jumper except for mayb Amen but he’s a freak athlete which Sochan is not.

But a lot of those guys don't play with a 7'3 curry yet it works. The spacing between them and their C is worse than Sochan-Wemby. Maybe we just don't have an offense.

[Seventyniner]

Tell Jeremy that all we can do right now is 4/48, but we understand if he wants to just play it out in Year 4 and earn a bigger deal, which we'll be happy to play if he improves.

I like Jeremy's trajectory - but not enough to chase his potential and make another Vassell-level mistake.

A 90/5 deal for Sochan, in terms of cap %, would be smaller than Keldon's deal and much smaller than Vassell's. A Vassell-level mistake would be giving Sochan something insane like 160/5.

4/48 is less than Tre Jones money, again in cap % terms. I don't think there's any way he signs something like that when he could potentially get a full MLE deal (77/4) from another team like Slo-Mo did.

[exstatic]

How would you know?

Observation. His shot no longer has the 45 degree axial rotation, and is going in at a 35% clip. It’s like some of you people don’t watch the fucking games.

[John B]

Observation. His shot no longer has the 45 degree axial rotation, and is going in at a 35% clip. It’s like some of you people don’t watch the fucking games.

The problem is he doesn’t want to shoot and only when he’s wide open, and even then sometimes he passed on open shots. The game commentators even make the call not to plant on Sochan “because he likes to pass.” On the other hand, Castle on his rookie year is shooting with gusto and showing much improvement, for someone who was also dubbed a non-shooter. Too different mentalities and affects negatively Sochan’s fit with the team. I was a proponent of Sochan before because I always thought Spurs X factor during championship years were the locked-on defenders, Elliot, Bruce, Kawhi/Danny. I was excited for Sochan to take that role. But his reluctance to shoot is very noticeable. He doesn’t try mid-range shots anymore at all, or maybe backdown smaller defenders, nada!

[rascal]

The problem is he doesn’t want to shoot and only when he’s wide open, and even then sometimes he passed on open shots. The game commentators even make the call not to plant on Sochan “because he likes to pass.” On the other hand, Castle on his rookie year is shooting with gusto and showing much improvement, for someone who was also dubbed a non-shooter. Too different mentalities and affects negatively Sochan’s fit with the team. I was a proponent of Sochan before because I always thought Spurs X factor during championship years were the locked-on defenders, Elliot, Bruce, Kawhi/Danny. I was excited for Sochan to take that role. But his reluctance to shoot is very noticeable. He doesn’t try mid-range shots anymore at all, or maybe backdown smaller defenders, nada!

Sochan doesn't have any offense away from the basket. Should have drafted Duren who shoots better near the basket and is a better rebounder.

[LeBowen]

Sochan doesn't have any offense away from the basket. Should have drafted Duren who shoots better near the basket and is a better rebounder.

Whataboutisms are pointless. Should've drafted Jalen Williams, Walker Kessler and Max Christie in 2022 draft, but we didn't.

[rascal]

Whataboutisms are pointless. Should've drafted Jalen Williams, Walker Kessler and Max Christie in 2022 draft, but we didn't.

Some of us wanted Duren, others wanted Sochan.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Observation. His shot no longer has the 45 degree axial rotation, and is going in at a 35% clip. It’s like some of you people don’t watch the fucking games.
35% on 1 3 a game :lol

[KobesAchilles]

A 90/5 deal for Sochan, in terms of cap %, would be smaller than Keldon's deal and much smaller than Vassell's. A Vassell-level mistake would be giving Sochan something insane like 160/5.

4/48 is less than Tre Jones money, again in cap % terms. I don't think there's any way he signs something like that when he could potentially get a full MLE deal (77/4) from another team like Slo-Mo did.
Where do you get your numbers from? Bc when I check you are way off on your numbers. Slomo is making 9 million a year. A far cry from 19 million you think he is making. And the most another team can offer Sochan with the full MLE is $56 million at 14 million a year. Way off from the 77 million as well.

It’s just smart business for the Spurs to offer him a lower contract and then match the 52 million if another team offers him one. Austin Reaves only signed a 12 million a year contract bc nobody made him an offer fearing the Lakers would just match. Roll the dice with Sochan too. Also Percentage of the cap doesn’t matter. We can’t have 3 bench players making a combined 65 million. That’s just horrible roster construction.

Now if we trade KJ and Vassell then we could pay Sochan that amount of money but it’s stupid to have 3 bench players making 20 million a year. I’ve never heard of a winning team that has that.

[KobesAchilles]

Observation. His shot no longer has the 45 degree axial rotation, and is going in at a 35% clip. It’s like some of you people don’t watch the fucking games.
New rule for Spurstalk. When a player is making half a 3 per game. Nobody gets to brag about his shooting percentage. Keep in mind all Sochan gets are wide ass open looks where the defender doesn’t even bother to run out at him and he still averages half a three made per game.

[Seventyniner]

Where do you get your numbers from? Bc when I check you are way off on your numbers. Slomo is making 9 million a year. A far cry from 19 million you think he is making. And the most another team can offer Sochan with the full MLE is $56 million at 14 million a year. Way off from the 77 million as well.

It’s just smart business for the Spurs to offer him a lower contract and then match the 52 million if another team offers him one. Austin Reaves only signed a 12 million a year contract bc nobody made him an offer fearing the Lakers would just match. Roll the dice with Sochan too. Also Percentage of the cap doesn’t matter. We can’t have 3 bench players making a combined 65 million. That’s just horrible roster construction.

Now if we trade KJ and Vassell then we could pay Sochan that amount of money but it’s stupid to have 3 bench players making 20 million a year. I’ve never heard of a winning team that has that.

Kyle Anderson's MLE contract with the Grizzlies was signed in 2018. It was 4 years starting at $8,641,000 and had 5% raises each year, which is the biggest MLE contract a team can offer to another team's player. The cap that year was around $102M so his contract started at 8.48% of the cap.

Currently the MLE is set at 9.12% of the cap and the cap projects to be $170M in 2026-2027, which would be the first year of Sochan's extension. That's a starting salary of $15.5M and a total of $70M over 4 years. I was wrong on the 77/4 part. Adding a 5th year brings it up to 90/5.

I totally disagree with the bolded part. imo % of the cap is the only thing that matters. It's the only way to make apples-to-apples comparisons across years, especially with the cap going up 10% a year. That's why I think a full MLE offer for Sochan in 2026 would be comparable to the Grizzlies' full MLE offer to Anderson 2018.

For the record, I am totally in favor of trading Vassell and KJ. I even said in the trade deadline thread that the Spurs should have tried to trade Vassell to the Wizards for Middleton straight up.

[exstatic]

The problem is he doesn’t want to shoot and only when he’s wide open, and even then sometimes he passed on open shots. The game commentators even make the call not to plant on Sochan “because he likes to pass.” On the other hand, Castle on his rookie year is shooting with gusto and showing much improvement, for someone who was also dubbed a non-shooter. Too different mentalities and affects negatively Sochan’s fit with the team. I was a proponent of Sochan before because I always thought Spurs X factor during championship years were the locked-on defenders, Elliot, Bruce, Kawhi/Danny. I was excited for Sochan to take that role. But his reluctance to shoot is very noticeable. He doesn’t try mid-range shots anymore at all, or maybe backdown smaller defenders, nada!


35% on 1 3 a game :lol

The discussion point is ‘has he been working on his shot?’, and the answer is clearly yes.

[Ice009]

Whataboutisms are pointless. Should've drafted Jalen Williams, Walker Kessler and Max Christie in 2022 draft, but we didn't.

The posters that did want those guys can pat themselves on the back. I do remember people wanting Jalen Williams, can't remember about Walker Kessler or Max Christie, though. I do remember 1-2 people wanting Jalen Duren too. I don't know if the Spurs develpment staff is terrible these days or if they just made bad picks.

[Jordan Jackson]

The posters that did want those guys can pat themselves on the back. I do remember people wanting Jalen Williams, can't remember about Walker Kessler or Max Christie, though. I do remember 1-2 people wanting Jalen Duren too. I don't know if the Spurs develpment staff is terrible these days or if they just made bad picks.

That’s bad drafting. Why in the world are you drafting someone with zero offensive ability and appears to not know how to play basketball? Coaches help with development but there has to be something there to work with to begin with.

A lot of this shit is on Pop thinking he can fix everyone. You can’t.

[John B]

That’s bad drafting. Why in the world are you drafting someone with zero offensive ability and appears to not know how to play basketball? Coaches help with development but there has to be something there to work with to begin with.

A lot of this shit is on Pop thinking he can fix everyone. You can’t.

Because the trend was to find the next Draymond, and Spurs always had locked-down defenders. But Spurs get fixated and forget other tangibles. Likewise, Samanic was a stretch-4 ala Diaw, again failed to see his lack of motor/character, Primo - defensive guard like Danny, failed. Branham, a prolific shooter like Mills, Beli, Gary Neal, failed.

We already know the prototypical players the Spurs select as their recipe for success. Unfortunately those players they pick failed, because they may have some of that ideal player’s qualities, but lacking the other qualities. It seems the current scouts, and players development, are sub-par as they used to be, at least for the last 5 years, I say started with Lonnie. The last great pick was Derrick. Wemby and Castle are obvious choices, okay I give them Castle because they could’ve gotten Dilly like some of the posters here wanted.

[scott]

A 90/5 deal for Sochan, in terms of cap %, would be smaller than Keldon's deal and much smaller than Vassell's. A Vassell-level mistake would be giving Sochan something insane like 160/5.

4/48 is less than Tre Jones money, again in cap % terms. I don't think there's any way he signs something like that when he could potentially get a full MLE deal (77/4) from another team like Slo-Mo did.

If he can get a full MLE deal, then let him and then we just match it, he'll be a Restricted Free Agent in the summer of 2026. There's no reason to go out and give him the deal you "think" he can get on the open market... you can just let him get it and match. What's the rush to go out and potentially overpay a guy for no reason? That's the Vassell-level mistake.

Also, you keep repeating that $77MM over 4 would be a full MLE deal, which is just flat out wrong. The MLE is estimated at $14.1-15.5MM for 2026-27 (source (https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2023/11/mid-level-bi-annual-projections-for-2024-25.html)). Even with Max 8% raises after year 1, that only comes out to $63.5-69.8MM over 4 years. You're out here giving away an extra 10-22% based on vibes.

Edit: I see you addressed the issue of what an MLE deal would look like above, so at least that is cleared up.

[scott]

Observation. His shot no longer has the 45 degree axial rotation, and is going in at a 35% clip. It’s like some of you people don’t watch the fucking games.

Imagine citing Sochan's shooting % and accusing other people not watching games :lol

[John B]

Imagine citing Sochan's shooting % and accusing other people not watching games :lol

Sochan is starting to have the Simmon’s syndrome of reluctant shooting seriously. Other teams commentators already know.

[spurraider21]

Whataboutisms are pointless. Should've drafted Jalen Williams, Walker Kessler and Max Christie in 2022 draft, but we didn't.
a lot of people here at the time wanted Duren. i didnt hear anybody saying they wanted j-dub at 9

[LeBowen]

Sochan is starting to have the Simmon’s syndrome of reluctant shooting seriously. Other teams commentators already know.

Simmons was at least a great passer, Jeremy just passes it for the sake of it most of the time.

I can't think of a single non-shooting forward on playoff teams right now. Even Draymond is at 33% on 3.4 attempts.
I guess there's Giannis, but he can do whatever he wants.

[scott]

Kyle Anderson's MLE contract with the Grizzlies was signed in 2018. It was 4 years starting at $8,641,000 and had 5% raises each year, which is the biggest MLE contract a team can offer to another team's player. The cap that year was around $102M so his contract started at 8.48% of the cap.

Currently the MLE is set at 9.12% of the cap and the cap projects to be $170M in 2026-2027, which would be the first year of Sochan's extension. That's a starting salary of $15.5M and a total of $70M over 4 years. I was wrong on the 77/4 part. Adding a 5th year brings it up to 90/5.

I totally disagree with the bolded part. imo % of the cap is the only thing that matters. It's the only way to make apples-to-apples comparisons across years, especially with the cap going up 10% a year. That's why I think a full MLE offer for Sochan in 2026 would be comparable to the Grizzlies' full MLE offer to Anderson 2018.

For the record, I am totally in favor of trading Vassell and KJ. I even said in the trade deadline thread that the Spurs should have tried to trade Vassell to the Wizards for Middleton straight up.

% of the cap absolutely matters, I agree, but I think it's overused/misapplied when you're talking about bench players. It's easy to say "yeah, that's only 9% of the cap!) but all those %s add up fast when it's a bunch of bench-level players eating up.

At one point this season we had 59% of the cap tied up in Devin Vassell, Keldon Johnson, Zach Collins and Harrison Barnes. That's okay when you're not expecting much of your team and you've got Wemby and Castle only accounting for 15% of the cap... but that gets unsustainable pretty damn quickly when you actually want to win some games.

I'd actually be fine with Sochan getting an MLE-level extension, but we ened to move off of Devin and Keldon to be able to do it. And there is no reason to just give it to him, let Jeremy go out there and earn it next year and hit RFA. The risk is that he overperforms and now you have to pay him more, but it's a risk I'm willing to take because it doesn't look like he's about to take that big leap (and I actually like Sochan's trajectory).

[LeBowen]

a lot of people here at the time wanted Duren. i didnt hear anybody saying they wanted j-dub at 9

Imo, Wesley and Branham picks were way bigger fuck-ups.
At least Jeremy pick was reasonable, not many players in that range are better than him.

Spurs had #20 and #25 picks, missed out on: Braun, Kessler, Jovic, Watson, Nembhard, Jaylin Williams, Christie and Hardy.
They picked a no defense SG and a PG with no offensive game whatsoever instead.

[scott]

a lot of people here at the time wanted Duren. i didnt hear anybody saying they wanted j-dub at 9

I recall there being lots of JDub fans, it started out as hoping he'd be there with the TOR pick. I don't recall if people were advocating him as high as 9 though. I do recall that Sochan was the overwhelming favorite of the board.

Just goes to show, the SpursTalk Zeitgeist is far from a crystal ball.

[exstatic]

Because the trend was to find the next Draymond, and Spurs always had locked-down defenders. But Spurs get fixated and forget other tangibles. Likewise, Samanic was a stretch-4 ala Diaw, again failed to see his lack of motor/character, Primo - defensive guard like Danny, failed. Branham, a prolific shooter like Mills, Beli, Gary Neal, failed.

We already know the prototypical players the Spurs select as their recipe for success. Unfortunately those players they pick failed, because they may have some of that ideal player’s qualities, but lacking the other qualities. It seems the current scouts, and players development, are sub-par as they used to be, at least for the last 5 years, I say started with Lonnie. The last great pick was Derrick. Wemby and Castle are obvious choices, okay I give they Castle because they could’ve gotten Dilly like some of the posters here wanted.

The truth is, the entire draft is a crap shoot, including #1 some years. Spot #9 isn’t somewhere you should expect a hit. The last All Star drafted at that spot was Gordon Hayward in 2010.

You people knob slobber Presti,but it’s almost like you’ve forgotten Giddey, Dieng, and Poku. Everyone misses.

[spurraider21]

I recall there being lots of JDub fans, it started out as hoping he'd be there with the TOR pick. I don't recall if people were advocating him as high as 9 though. I do recall that Sochan was the overwhelming favorite of the board.

Just goes to show, the SpursTalk Zeitgeist is far from a crystal ball.
i dont think anybody minded the branham/wesley picks at the time either

[BatManu20]

i dont think anybody minded the branham/wesley picks at the time either

I thought Branham was a steal tbh. So did Jay Bilas, who called him the steal of the 1st Round :lol. He was one of the best Freshman scorers in CBB that year, especially down the backstretch of the season. I remember watching him drop 35 on Nebraska and thinking "Damn I wish the Spurs could get this kid" :lol

[scott]

i dont think anybody minded the branham/wesley picks at the time either

I don't even mind them now. We took a shot at the end of the first, and those guys have ended up around the expected outcome for picks in the 20s, which is replacement level player. At the time, our team had absolutely no identity or direction, and we took a chance on high upside swings. They didn't work out. Sure it's easy to point to guys we should have picked instead... but Kessler's the only "safe" one I can see. All of those others guys on the Spurs with our development staff might just have ended with the same outcome as Bran and Blake at this point.

We swung, we missed, we move on. If our team was situated then how it is now, I bet we probably take Kessler. But at the time, Blake and Bran were fine.

We should definitely overhaul the developmental staff though. Isn't that Mitch's specialty?

[Seventyniner]

% of the cap absolutely matters, I agree, but I think it's overused/misapplied when you're talking about bench players. It's easy to say "yeah, that's only 9% of the cap!) but all those %s add up fast when it's a bunch of bench-level players eating up.

At one point this season we had 59% of the cap tied up in Devin Vassell, Keldon Johnson, Zach Collins and Harrison Barnes. That's okay when you're not expecting much of your team and you've got Wemby and Castle only accounting for 15% of the cap... but that gets unsustainable pretty damn quickly when you actually want to win some games.

I'd actually be fine with Sochan getting an MLE-level extension, but we ened to move off of Devin and Keldon to be able to do it. And there is no reason to just give it to him, let Jeremy go out there and earn it next year and hit RFA. The risk is that he overperforms and now you have to pay him more, but it's a risk I'm willing to take because it doesn't look like he's about to take that big leap (and I actually like Sochan's trajectory).

I agree with the bolded part. A reason to give it to him in October rather than waiting until July 2026 is that if he somehow really blows up next season he could command more than the MLE in 2026. That's the risk the Spurs could mitigate by locking the extension in. There's also the risk that the Spurs do give him the extension,he plateaus or plays worse next season, and it's a bad contract. There's no risk-free play here.

Wrapped up in my take that 90/5 would be a good extension for Sochan (from the Spurs POV) is that I think Sochan would be a capable starter alongside Wemby, Fox, Castle, and an upgraded SF. 9% on a bench player versus 9% for a 5th starter is a small but meaningful difference.

This does involve some optimism on my part that Castle will improve enough to be a respectable shooter and that Sochan himself continues to improve.

I can't remember where I got the 77/4 thing. It was probably either a typo or I was using a first-year salary of 10% of the cap rather than 9.12%. Also, if another team offers a full MLE to Sochan it would only be 67/4 due to the raises only being 5%. These are the sources I used for the 2026-2027 cap number and MLE sizes.

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/06/values-of-2024-25-mid-level-bi-annual-exceptions.html

[John B]

i dont think anybody minded the branham/wesley picks at the time either

Branham, Wesley were not top 9 pick. J-Dubs, Jalen Duren, Walker Kessler, Tari Eason.

Sochan is already a bust at 9th period. Can he still be a role player, yes! But for Christ sake, shoot the ball!

[scott]

I agree with the bolded part. A reason to give it to him in October rather than waiting until July 2026 is that if he somehow really blows up next season he could command more than the MLE in 2026. That's the risk the Spurs could mitigate by locking the extension in. There's also the risk that the Spurs do give him the extension,he plateaus or plays worse next season, and it's a bad contract. There's no risk-free play here.

Wrapped up in my take that 90/5 would be a good extension for Sochan (from the Spurs POV) is that I think Sochan would be a capable starter alongside Wemby, Fox, Castle, and an upgraded SF. 9% on a bench player versus 9% for a 5th starter is a small but meaningful difference.

This does involve some optimism on my part that Castle will improve enough to be a respectable shooter and that Sochan himself continues to improve.

I can't remember where I got the 77/4 thing. It was probably either a typo or I was using a first-year salary of 10% of the cap rather than 9.12%. Also, if another team offers a full MLE to Sochan it would only be 67/4 due to the raises only being 5%. These are the sources I used for the 2026-2027 cap number and MLE sizes.

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/06/values-of-2024-25-mid-level-bi-annual-exceptions.html

I agree with your analysis for the most part, I'm just not overly worried about the risk of Sochan blowing up... but if he did blow up and deserve more than an MLE deal, I'd be fine with that too because now he's taken a huge step and will be worth whatever that new contract is. So long as you get off Devin and Keldon, it will all be fine. I'd still just let him hit RFA or see if he'll take a bargain deal now just to lock it in.

[scott]

Branham, Wesley were not top 9 pick. J-Dubs, Jalen Duren, Walker Kessler, Tari Eason.

Sochan is already a bust at 9th period. Can he still be a role player, yes! But for Christ sake, shoot the ball!

It's easy to talk about JDub, but Tari Eason is honestly the guy we should have drafted. He's essentially what we hoped Sochan would be, and there was a lot of discussion here about him. Seemed like it was his personality that caused folks to kind of sour on him IIRC... but it's not like Sochan's personality is any less goofy.

[KobesAchilles]

Dude is a bench player and the Spurs are looking to add Reid and we are going to be worried about Sochan blowing up? How? Literally how is he going to blow up? His stats have stayed the same all three years PLUS he doesn’t fit in the starting line up since he can’t shoot.

You can’t ONLY look at the cap percentage when building a team. Vassell and KJ are already bench players making 20+ million. You can’t have a third bench player making 20 million. You just can’t have that on the bench and expect to be a winner. Cap percentage be hanged.

Sochan has the same stats 3 years in a row. His playing time will be less. His ball handling will be less and his shot attempts will be down too and he can’t shoot. He’s not going to blow up. Take the risk. It’s smart business. He’s not a rising commodity.

Give me the scenario where Sochan just magically has his break out season. What does it look like? How does he fit in the offense? How many minutes does he average? Like actually think it through.

[Obstructed_View]

Observation. His shot no longer has the 45 degree axial rotation, and is going in at a 35% clip. It’s like some of you people don’t watch the fucking games.
I said anyone with a brain. You didn't catch the insult.

[Obstructed_View]

The discussion point is ‘has he been working on his shot?’, and the answer is clearly yes.

His attempts per game have dropped by nearly fifty percent from last year. People aren't even covering him. But yeah that small bump in accuracy means he's been putting in work.

[Seventyniner]

Dude is a bench player and the Spurs are looking to add Reid and we are going to be worried about Sochan blowing up? How? Literally how is he going to blow up? His stats have stayed the same all three years PLUS he doesn’t fit in the starting line up since he can’t shoot.

You can’t ONLY look at the cap percentage when building a team. Vassell and KJ are already bench players making 20+ million. You can’t have a third bench player making 20 million. You just can’t have that on the bench and expect to be a winner. Cap percentage be hanged.

Sochan has the same stats 3 years in a row. His playing time will be less. His ball handling will be less and his shot attempts will be down too and he can’t shoot. He’s not going to blow up. Take the risk. It’s smart business. He’s not a rising commodity.

Give me the scenario where Sochan just magically has his break out season. What does it look like? How does he fit in the offense? How many minutes does he average? Like actually think it through.



I already said I want Vassell and Keldon traded. My idea that 90/5 is fine for Sochan is predicated on him being a starter and believing that Castle's outside shooting will be respectable in the future (around 34% from three), so that a Fox/Castle/upgraded SF/Sochan/Wemby lineup would be good on offense and awesome on defense.
Naz Reid is a much better player than Sochan, and if the Spurs do land Reid then Sochan's value to the Spurs drops significantly.
You're way too hung up on the $20M number. As a % of the cap it's smaller and smaller each year. A 90/5 full MLE deal from the Spurs would only have one year (the final one) be over $20M, and Keldon's deal has no remaining years over $20M. In fact, only the final year of Keldon's contract ($17.5M) overlaps the first year of Sochan's extension (would be $15.5M if it's full MLE-sized).
He fits in the offense as a cutter/dunker and connector. He really shouldn't be spotting up. There is room for one non-shooter in a lineup.
His stats are much better this year than in his first two. He has gone from a putrid 0.513 TS% to a very good 0.595 this season, and has had big bumps to free throw rate and rebounding. And this has happened while playing 22% of his minutes out of position at C.
"Blow up" doesn't always mean raw counting stats. If he can be an elite defender and rebounder while being at worst a slight negative on offense, that's well worth MLE money and a spot in the starting lineup imo. His breakout season would have him starting at PF (sorry, Harrison), playing 30-32 minutes, and further increasing his defense/rebounding/TS% numbers into elite territory.

[scott]

Seventyniner - what contract do you offer Sochan without the predicate that he is a starter? Because my opinion on his contract is kind of predicated on the notion that he won't (or shouldn't) be.

[Obstructed_View]

Seventyniner - what contract do you offer Sochan without the predicate that he is a starter? Because my opinion on his contract is kind of predicated on the notion that he won't (or shouldn't) be.
Without a reliable three, he cannot be a starter. He does a lot of things really well, but in today's NBA he isn't of much value without a three pointer.

[NASpurs]

Without a reliable three, he cannot be a starter. He does a lot of things really well, but in today's NBA he isn't of much value without a three pointer.

Unless PATFO think he's the next Draymond Green which is laughable when there's no Curry on our team.

That stint he had as a PG last year worries me that they think/thought he's like Green. Hopefully that illusion is gone.

[SpursBills]

So I really go back and forth on this issue, I think partially because I really want Sochan to make a leap and also because I like weird players like him.

Last week I looked at a bunch of contracts from prior perimeter players, and concluded that Sochan wasn't too far off from 3rd year guys like OG and McDaniels and Okongwu in impact metrics. But I think I failed to appreciate how he affects playability of certain lineups, so that even if he's a highly impactful player when he's on, he's a very high friction player that forces certain lineup decisions with his combination of lack of (physicality, shot creation, passing creativity, and shooting). I do think that his closest comp in the league currently is Jarred Vanderbilt, who's also a highly impactful defender and shares similar high impact metrics and similar per 100 stats (except scoring), is sort of an undersized big with wing agility, but is limited by his lack of a shot.

Age 24 Vando got a 4/48 contract last year and I think Sochan if he doesn't learn to shoot in the next 2-3 years is probably worth a similar contract cap-adjusted. If he does learn to shoot at "good shooter" levels (at least 3 3PM/100 possessions), he may actually be worth 25-30 million because he jumps into the young OG/McDaniels. I am most interested to see what the Rockets end up doing with Tari Eason this summer, as his contract would basically be what Sochan's value would be if he could shoot at "league average" levels, since he is two years older than Sochan and their impact metric curves seem to overlap quite well.

So all this is to say, maybe scott is right and it's a better idea just to wait for restricted free agency with him unless he signs a very team friendly deal. His next contract is so leveraged on shooting performance that you need as much time as possible to accurately evaluate whether it's going to translate or not. I don't think he's going to become a deadeye high volume shooter overnight even if by some miracle it ever happens, so next year at this time if his shooting is trending up, the new form translates, and he's a league average shooter then you can offer him an Eason-like contract, and you have a better point of comparison by that time. It protects you from yet another recent first rounder getting a big contract and then sucking it up and turning into an albatross contract.

[Obstructed_View]

Unless PATFO think he's the next Draymond Green which is laughable when there's no Curry on our team.

That stint he had as a PG last year worries me that they think/thought he's like Green. Hopefully that illusion is gone.
I didn't think he was that bad at point. Nobody else on the team could do it, they don't set screens or generate good shots. Sochan basically gave them slightly more size than a regular small ball lineup.

[ambchang]

Dude is a bench player and the Spurs are looking to add Reid and we are going to be worried about Sochan blowing up? How? Literally how is he going to blow up? His stats have stayed the same all three years PLUS he doesn’t fit in the starting line up since he can’t shoot.

You can’t ONLY look at the cap percentage when building a team. Vassell and KJ are already bench players making 20+ million. You can’t have a third bench player making 20 million. You just can’t have that on the bench and expect to be a winner. Cap percentage be hanged.

Sochan has the same stats 3 years in a row. His playing time will be less. His ball handling will be less and his shot attempts will be down too and he can’t shoot. He’s not going to blow up. Take the risk. It’s smart business. He’s not a rising commodity.

Give me the scenario where Sochan just magically has his break out season. What does it look like? How does he fit in the offense? How many minutes does he average? Like actually think it through.

Sochans finishing and rebounding took a significant leap this year. His PER jumped by almost 50% form last year. I won’t call those the same stats.

That said, agree that he should go earn the contract, let the market determine it. I was thinking $18 per is fair but hope the spurs can work something around $15-$16.

[KobesAchilles]

I already said I want Vassell and Keldon traded. My idea that 90/5 is fine for Sochan is predicated on him being a starter and believing that Castle's outside shooting will be respectable in the future (around 34% from three), so that a Fox/Castle/upgraded SF/Sochan/Wemby lineup would be good on offense and awesome on defense.
Naz Reid is a much better player than Sochan, and if the Spurs do land Reid then Sochan's value to the Spurs drops significantly.
You're way too hung up on the $20M number. As a % of the cap it's smaller and smaller each year. A 90/5 full MLE deal from the Spurs would only have one year (the final one) be over $20M, and Keldon's deal has no remaining years over $20M. In fact, only the final year of Keldon's contract ($17.5M) overlaps the first year of Sochan's extension (would be $15.5M if it's full MLE-sized).
He fits in the offense as a cutter/dunker and connector. He really shouldn't be spotting up. There is room for one non-shooter in a lineup.
His stats are much better this year than in his first two. He has gone from a putrid 0.513 TS% to a very good 0.595 this season, and has had big bumps to free throw rate and rebounding. And this has happened while playing 22% of his minutes out of position at C.
"Blow up" doesn't always mean raw counting stats. If he can be an elite defender and rebounder while being at worst a slight negative on offense, that's well worth MLE money and a spot in the starting lineup imo. His breakout season would have him starting at PF (sorry, Harrison), playing 30-32 minutes, and further increasing his defense/rebounding/TS% numbers into elite territory.


So many things are wrong with what you said I think you are either his agent, family member, or don’t know the Spurs. Ofc his efficiency went up. He stopped shooting threes. And he is taking a career low in shot attempts. So yeah when all he is doing is shooting the ball 8 times a game and every single shot is uncontested or at the rim, he’s going to have higher efficiency. His free throw percentage is 69% which still sucks but he attempts a whole 2 free throws a game so does it wouldn’t really matter even if he was averaging 90% from the line. He can’t get there.

I hate when people say that you can have one non-shooter in the starting line up when it comes to defending Sochan. First off, you really can’t. Any non-shooter would be unplayable in the playoffs. Literally the easiest way to guard the Spurs in the playoffs would be to guard Wemby with a 4 and have your center just play way off Sochan and either double Wemby or clog the paint. Pretty damn easy scheme that we would have zero answer for.

Sochan isn’t good enough to be a starter on a winning team. Sorry. He sucks that badly at offense. He’s scared. And I don’t want a scared player on my team as a starter. I can’t imagine playing basketball and being afraid to shoot the ball but the dude literally is scared to shoot.

Btw Castle, Fox, and Wemby are all aight shooters at the 3. We really can’t afford to start Sochan if he can’t shoot. And also you haven’t answered my question. Which contender has three bench players making that much money? Sochan is a bench player now. He plays “out of position” bc he is so bad at offense we don’t know where to put him. He’s a tweener who can’t shoot. That’s a bench player. He’s a good bench player. But the point is that really you are bidding against yourself. Nobody bid against the Lakers. Why are you dead set on that 11% when we can have him for 7?

[rascal]

So many things are wrong with what you said I think you are either his agent, family member, or don’t know the Spurs. Ofc his efficiency went up. He stopped shooting threes. And he is taking a career low in shot attempts. So yeah when all he is doing is shooting the ball 8 times a game and every single shot is uncontested or at the rim, he’s going to have higher efficiency. His free throw percentage is 69% which still sucks but he attempts a whole 2 free throws a game so does it wouldn’t really matter even if he was averaging 90% from the line. He can’t get there.

I hate when people say that you can have one non-shooter in the starting line up when it comes to defending Sochan. First off, you really can’t. Any non-shooter would be unplayable in the playoffs. Literally the easiest way to guard the Spurs in the playoffs would be to guard Wemby with a 4 and have your center just play way off Sochan and either double Wemby or clog the paint. Pretty damn easy scheme that we would have zero answer for.

Sochan isn’t good enough to be a starter on a winning team. Sorry. He sucks that badly at offense. He’s scared. And I don’t want a scared player on my team as a starter. I can’t imagine playing basketball and being afraid to shoot the ball but the dude literally is scared to shoot.

Btw Castle, Fox, and Wemby are all aight shooters at the 3. We really can’t afford to start Sochan if he can’t shoot. And also you haven’t answered my question. Which contender has three bench players making that much money? Sochan is a bench player now. He plays “out of position” bc he is so bad at offense we don’t know where to put him. He’s a tweener who can’t shoot. That’s a bench player. He’s a good bench player. But the point is that really you are bidding against yourself. Nobody bid against the Lakers. Why are you dead set on that 11% when we can have him for 7?

Clogging the paint with Sochan's defender because Sochan isn't a shooting threat also hurts Fox and Castle as their biggest offfensive moves are going to the basket, also it hurts the offensive rebounding numbers with another defender near the basket.

[poopbox]

I didn't think he was that bad at point. Nobody else on the team could do it, they don't set screens or generate good shots. Sochan basically gave them slightly more size than a regular small ball lineup.

Who gives a fuck about size when you can't dribble or shoot or pass and you are the person who is supposed to be initiation the offense?

This dude is a complete bust. Top 10 pick and if I bet you a million dollars that Sochan would score at least 12 points in 30 straight games would you take that bet?

[Mal]

Sochan pure numbers are getting destroyed by coaching decisions. Play PG, play backup C while being primary on guys like Cade Cunningham, play off the bench, while Barnes starts and he is good only when his shots are falling in. Sochan is plugging all the holes this roster have, he is not complaining, he is improving year-to-year. He is only 21 and some retards are saying he is a bust.

[Pauleta14]

Spurs need to involve him in a trade ASAP while he still have some hype, the dude is a bad seed and even a friendly deal would be stupid because he's unusable.

Why hold on to such a limited player when you have so many other options to develop...

[rascal]

Sochan pure numbers are getting destroyed by coaching decisions. Play PG, play backup C while being primary on guys like Cade Cunningham, play off the bench, while Barnes starts and he is good only when his shots are falling in. Sochan is plugging all the holes this roster have, he is not complaining, he is improving year-to-year. He is only 21 and some retards are saying he is a bust.

He isn't really improving all that much.

[Mal]

He isn't really improving all that much.

Take out January/February 2025 where he played injured/backup C - he is getting better in almost every statistical category

[Raven]

he's playing well, but coaching is really hurting him

[Seventyniner]

So many things are wrong with what you said I think you are either his agent, family member, or don’t know the Spurs. Ofc his efficiency went up. He stopped shooting threes. And he is taking a career low in shot attempts. So yeah when all he is doing is shooting the ball 8 times a game and every single shot is uncontested or at the rim, he’s going to have higher efficiency. His free throw percentage is 69% which still sucks but he attempts a whole 2 free throws a game so does it wouldn’t really matter even if he was averaging 90% from the line. He can’t get there.

I hate when people say that you can have one non-shooter in the starting line up when it comes to defending Sochan. First off, you really can’t. Any non-shooter would be unplayable in the playoffs. Literally the easiest way to guard the Spurs in the playoffs would be to guard Wemby with a 4 and have your center just play way off Sochan and either double Wemby or clog the paint. Pretty damn easy scheme that we would have zero answer for.

Sochan isn’t good enough to be a starter on a winning team. Sorry. He sucks that badly at offense. He’s scared. And I don’t want a scared player on my team as a starter. I can’t imagine playing basketball and being afraid to shoot the ball but the dude literally is scared to shoot.

Btw Castle, Fox, and Wemby are all aight shooters at the 3. We really can’t afford to start Sochan if he can’t shoot. And also you haven’t answered my question. Which contender has three bench players making that much money? Sochan is a bench player now. He plays “out of position” bc he is so bad at offense we don’t know where to put him. He’s a tweener who can’t shoot. That’s a bench player. He’s a good bench player. But the point is that really you are bidding against yourself. Nobody bid against the Lakers. Why are you dead set on that 11% when we can have him for 7?



Efficiency is efficiency. If you're going to have high usage players like Wemby and Fox you have to have some low usage players. Those players being efficient is a good thing.
Saying that having one non-shooter can't work is just plain wrong. Players like Draymond and Gordon played key roles on title teams, and guys like Amen Thompson/Sengun are bad three point shooters while having a positive impact overall.
Your third paragraph is merely your opinion, and I disagree with it. Stating it as a fact doesn't make it one.
The Spurs will have three bench players making that much money for at most one season even if Sochan gets 90/5 and doesn't start. Keldon will be on the last year of his contract. Hopefully Vassell will be shipped out by then too.
I'm not dead set on 11%. I think 9% (MLE) would be a decent deal, and 8% would be good. I don't think he would take 7% but instead test the market, though of course if he would take that I would let him have it.
Bench players making 9% of the cap isn't at all unheard of, by the way. Guys like Obi Toppin, Terrance Mann, Grant Williams, and Onyeka Okongwu all make around that amount this season.
Sochan is mainly a bench player now because of the other starting-spot-promise the Spurs seem to have made. Both Sochan and Barnes are natural 4s in today's league.

[Seventyniner]

So all this is to say, maybe scott is right and it's a better idea just to wait for restricted free agency with him unless he signs a very team friendly deal. His next contract is so leveraged on shooting performance that you need as much time as possible to accurately evaluate whether it's going to translate or not. I don't think he's going to become a deadeye high volume shooter overnight even if by some miracle it ever happens, so next year at this time if his shooting is trending up, the new form translates, and he's a league average shooter then you can offer him an Eason-like contract, and you have a better point of comparison by that time. It protects you from yet another recent first rounder getting a big contract and then sucking it up and turning into an albatross contract.

On paper it makes perfect sense to let Sochan hit RFA and just match reasonable offers. However, the Spurs don't seem to operate that way. If Sochan signs with another team and asks the Spurs not to match, their track record indicates that they would let him go even if they would have liked him to stay on the same contract.

So given how the Spurs have shown that they operate, it would be better to lock Sochan up early if the price is right. Again, this is predicated on the idea that the Spurs don't tend to play hardball in RFA.

I think Sochan is worth MLE money even if he doesn't become a shooter, and 9% is small enough that it is unlikely to be an albatross contract even if he never improves and never starts again. Again, 9% is less than Keldon making now (13.5%, albeit on a declining contract) and Vassell (20.9%, ugh).

[Seventyniner]

Seventyniner (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17327) - what contract do you offer Sochan without the predicate that he is a starter? Because my opinion on his contract is kind of predicated on the notion that he won't (or shouldn't) be.

Certainly less than 90/5.

Sochan is a rare archetype, like a classic rim-roller center (defense/rebounding specialist while being a cutter/rim-roller on offense) but defends wings and guards and is a better connector than most who play that role. That gives lineups that include him upside because he does things most players can't, but it also makes him more difficult to build around because you need a shooting big next to him. Wemby certainly fits that bill, which is why I think Sochan is a better fit in the starting lineup than off the bench. The defensive potential of Fox/Castle/3-and-D SF/Sochan/Wemby is huge.

If the Spurs do land Naz Reid, Sochan could be the first big off the bench and can play alongside either Wemby or Reid. That's probably the ideal bench scenario for him. I guess if I have to give a number it would be something like 70/5. That's a starting salary of $12M, or about 7% of the cap. I think he would rather test the market than take that, though.

I still want the fifth year because in cap % terms, the 5th year will always be cheaper than the 4th if the cap keeps going up 10% a year, and that will be his age 27 season which should be the best year of his career to that point, and perhaps ever.

[polandprzem]

Maybe I'm not remembering right, but I thought I did remember him shooting free throws in a game at the start of the season with two hands. Am I wrong? Maybe it was one game, or during the same game and he went back to one handed free throws in the same game.
He did

[John B]

Better offensive mindset last night with 11 attempts.

[spurraider21]

id like to keep sochan around but his contract should be in line with a good bench player and not solid starter

have to acknowledge that a lot is being asked of him. defend bigs, defend smalls. rebound. score down low as a cutter and via pick and roll. fix the 3 point shot. a year after being thrown into a PG spot he had no experience with. he at least has a great attitude about it and manages to be a force for good more often than not. tbh, one thing that hasnt really shown up much this year which was one of his posiitve attributes in the draft was his passing ability (i thought he could fit into the draymond role due to that). there's still plenty of room for him to improve especially with age and naturally getting stronger as part of that

and when this season ends for the spurs, he will still be 21 years old.

[ambchang]

Ultimately I think the main polarized views of sochan comes from his extremes in offence and defence. He is a bad offensive player in :lol todays nba due to his inability and, more damming, unwillingness to shoot. But he does have some redeeming qualities as he is a decent ball handler and passer for someone his size, and he is a very good rim roller.

On the other hand he is an at least above average perimeter defender and excellent offensive rebounder. That combination is quite rare and is a useful trait. His interior defense is suspect due to his size and athleticism, but overall he is a good, versatile defender. He defends PGs 17.2% of the time and centre 10.7% of the time. For someone who is primarily a forward (d sf and PF about 27% of the time) this is really impressive stuff.

I believe there are redeeming qualities to his offensive game even though there has to be massive improvements in a few areas (shooting being the obvious one, but also some form of creation off the dribble).

To say that all five players on the floor had to be shooter is simply untrue. Cason Wallace, Caruso, Jaylin Williams, hartenstein arent great shooters and they play comparatively heavy minutes for the thunder. At least one and many times more than one of them are on the floor together.

More t, Marcus smart for the grizzlies. Amen, FVV, sengun, Eason, shit more for Houston. Westbrook and Watson for Denver. Jarrett Allen, wade and mobley (low volume) for the cavs. Giannis, kuzma, KPJ for the bucks. The list goes on. To blame the offensive woes of the spurs on sochan not being able to shoot is lazy, sure he’s not helping but I still maintain the biggest issue is that the coaching staff has failed to design a workable offense with the parts we have.

Ultimately it just depends on what we value and I’m still a defense first guy. Sochan is a team player and plays with a lot of toughness, doesn’t complain and do whatever is asked of him to do. He has his warts but it’s just magnified with the terrible system.

For the record I think it’s not just sochan, but everyone is under performing due to the game plan. Wemby with his skills should be easily a top 5 player in the league already, instead he’s not playing to that high stratosphere (I’d say too 10 before the blood clot) because the game plan sucks.

[scott]

Sochan is a rare archetype, like a classic rim-roller center (defense/rebounding specialist while being a cutter/rim-roller on offense) but defends wings and guards and is a better connector than most who play that role. That gives lineups that include him upside because he does things most players can't, but it also makes him more difficult to build around because you need a shooting big next to him. Wemby certainly fits that bill, which is why I think Sochan is a better fit in the starting lineup than off the bench. The defensive potential of Fox/Castle/3-and-D SF/Sochan/Wemby is huge.



I think the bolded parts are matter distilled down to the most important points. Rare doesn't always mean useful, and at some point it may just be easier to find a useful, less rare archetype than trying to fit the rest of the puzzle pieces that best activate Sochan.

Wemby is also a rare, and a little more difficult to build around... but he's good enough to be a centerpiece that you build around. Sochan is not, so at some point the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

[The Truth #6]

It's easy to talk about JDub, but Tari Eason is honestly the guy we should have drafted. He's essentially what we hoped Sochan would be, and there was a lot of discussion here about him. Seemed like it was his personality that caused folks to kind of sour on him IIRC... but it's not like Sochan's personality is any less goofy.

I was big on Eason and didn't think his personality was an issue at all. He played hard and on instinct. Of course the experts here knew better. The guy was kind of a dork in a Spurs way iirc. Actually I wanted Sochan and Eason.

[Seventyniner]

I think the bolded parts are matter distilled down to the most important points. Rare doesn't always mean useful, and at some point it may just be easier to find a useful, less rare archetype than trying to fit the rest of the puzzle pieces that best activate Sochan.

Wemby is also a rare, and a little more difficult to build around... but he's good enough to be a centerpiece that you build around. Sochan is not, so at some point the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

imo rare players are a multiplier on coaching. With bad coaching they will be worse than a more vanilla archetype, but with good coaching they can transcend.

So I guess my support of signing Sochan to a MLE-sized extension is also predicated on the Spurs having at least above-average coaching, which certainly isn't a given.

[Ni-G]

Spurs coaching sucks big time and not only this year. Just look at Collins and Tre blossoming at Chicago. Suddenly with a semi competent game plan they look like borderline all stars.

[exstatic]

Spurs coaching sucks big time and not only this year. Just look at Collins and Tre blossoming at Chicago. Suddenly with a semi competent game plan they look like borderline all stars.

They’re allowed to take whatever shots they want on an obviously tanking team. Don’t overthink this.

[Ni-G]

It doesn't change the fact that Mitch sucks.

[BatManu20]

1895493555193569693

[exstatic]

1895493555193569693

Wait, I’ve been reliably informed by posters here that Sochan doesn’t play good defense.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Wait, I’ve been reliably informed by posters here that Sochan doesn’t play good defense.
He got blown by some wife beater on the hornets for a game winner. He’s overrated.

[exstatic]

He got blown by some wife beater on the hornets for a game winner. He’s overrated.

Hornets game was lost by a kick out three pointer, as Esteban Castillo got caught ball watching. It was the wife beater who hit the shot, though, so you got that right.

[z0sa]

He got blown by some wife beater on the hornets for a game winner. He’s overrated.

Yeah, a two would've only tied it, so that was clearly the game plan (to let them shoot a contested 2/layup, anything but a 3).

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-V76U2vY50

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45NcMMjIqlQ

[cutewizard]

If he could just develop an outside shot........

[mystargtr34]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-V76U2vY50

Sochans perimeter defense passes the eye test and backs up the numbers in the video. It’s on the inside against big physical 4’s where he is overmatched due to a lack of strength. I’ve been saying Sochans best position is as a 3 where his combination of plus size and plus foot speed/lateral quickness is an advantage and he’s guarding the best player 1 through 3 and occasionally 1 through 4 depending on the matchup.

If the Spurs fill the starting 4 position with a shooting big like Naz Reid or Rasheer Fleming I wouldn’t mind giving Sochan a run as the starting 3 next to Fox and Castle. Spacing will be an issue so it may be too big of a trade off but the Spurs could also bring Castle off the bench and slot in a shooter at the starting 2 like a Kon Kernipple.

Having Sochan guarding the opponents best player from the tip is a big advantage as opposed to guys getting in a groove being guarded by Evan or Barnes.

[ginobilized]

Sochan definitely has his positives, as stated already, the coaching/systems/game plans seem incomprehensible at times.
I, like virtually everyone on this forum, do feel that his role would be clarified greatly by adding a Naz Reid type along with a strong 3&D wing. Socahan is a great connective piece of a really good to great team, but, not one you build around, nor, give up the farm for.

Random thought, I sometimes wonder if it's like a CIA Pop technique to use shitty game plans on purpose to make the team follow orders, get over themselves and overcome adversity. Like they need to earn the right to better coaching. Kind of the basketball version of Glengarry Glenross.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Sochan has been rated by EPM very highly this year. He was among the top 8 defenders till Wemby was around and once our main guy was shut down for the season, Sochan became less effective even if his numbers remained elite on defense.

Sochan, Castle and Wemby are our defensive calling cards. They just need to find a way to play together. Wemby is mostly complete and is malleable enough. But Sochan needs to develop his shooting while Castle also needs to do that apart from honing his off-ball defense. Paired with someone like Cam Johnson plus Fox being the orchestrator.. a healthy Spurs team can near contention. We can also be set if we luck into someone like Flagg.

[Raven]

His weakest point on D, is his decision making when to double and when to switch. Personally I think spurs should ditch their switch everything mantra and use sochan as a lockdown man defender.

[mystargtr34]

I was a bit shocked just now to see Sochans 3 point % is up to .342 for the year albeit on only 1.6 attempts per game. But he’s gone from .246 his rookie year to .308 his second year and now to .342 his third but attempts have dropped this year.

Interesting development though. Even the eye test on the 3 point shooting looks a bit better over the last 2 months he’s lost that weird hitch catapult shit he was doing at the start of te season.

[mystargtr34]

I like Sochan in the Jaden McDaniels, Toumani Camara, OG Anunoby, Herb Jones, Dyson Daniels role. Follow the best scorer around like a glove from the opening tip.

Of course the biggest swing skill is the shooting.

[mystargtr34]

His weakest point on D, is his decision making when to double and when to switch. Personally I think spurs should ditch their switch everything mantra and use sochan as a lockdown man defender.

Agree the IQ is still lacking for rotations, switches etc. but purely sticking to his man he does that well.

[exstatic]

Agree the IQ is still lacking for rotations, switches etc. but purely sticking to his man he does that well.

The reality is, if he’s on their #1 option, he should never switch. It’s one of the reasons we run drop big coverage.

[exstatic]

I was a bit shocked just now to see Sochans 3 point % is up to .342 for the year albeit on only 1.6 attempts per game. But he’s gone from .246 his rookie year to .308 his second year and now to .342 his third but attempts have dropped this year.

Interesting development though. Even the eye test on the 3 point shooting looks a bit better over the last 2 months he’s lost that weird hitch catapult shit he was doing at the start of te season.

I’ve been reliably informed that his improved % and better looking shot doesn’t matter because of the 1.4 attempts.

[poopbox]

I’ve been reliably informed that his improved % and better looking shot doesn’t matter because of the 1.4 attempts.

Right. Because mathematically he isn't even making a 3 a game, so who cares about how his shot looks? And this is on wide open 3's. Has anyone ever contested a Jeremy Sochan 3 in his entire career :rollin

[The Truth #6]

He has definitely worked on his shot and it has improved though obviously still has a ways to go. But to me, he's never going to be this great shooter, so expecting him to become that is not the point. To me, a better way to look at it is can he at least be average as a shooter, and then find other ways to contribute. Different approach here, is that his most important swing skill moving forward might actually be his ball handling, because if he's never going to be a great shooter, and if we would hope that we could start him in that small forward position as an experiment, and pair him with a great three-point shooting power forward like Reid, then if he could at least attack people with his dribble, then we may be cooking with something, especially forming a defensive identity with he, Wemby, and Castle all starting together.

[spurraider21]

I think the bolded parts are matter distilled down to the most important points. Rare doesn't always mean useful, and at some point it may just be easier to find a useful, less rare archetype than trying to fit the rest of the puzzle pieces that best activate Sochan.

Wemby is also a rare, and a little more difficult to build around... but he's good enough to be a centerpiece that you build around. Sochan is not, so at some point the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
yeah, sometimes a player is rare because guys like that just dont exist. wemby, curry, etc.

sometimes guys are rare for a reason, the league doesnt find use for that type of player.

[The Truth #6]

I'd rather start Naz Reid at 4 and Sochan at 3 than our current lineup. Though this may be just another way to move on from Devin.

[rascal]

He has definitely worked on his shot and it has improved though obviously still has a ways to go. But to me, he's never going to be this great shooter, so expecting him to become that is not the point. To me, a better way to look at it is can he at least be average as a shooter, and then find other ways to contribute. Different approach here, is that his most important swing skill moving forward might actually be his ball handling, because if he's never going to be a great shooter, and if we would hope that we could start him in that small forward position as an experiment, and pair him with a great three-point shooting power forward like Reid, then if he could at least attack people with his dribble, then we may be cooking with something, especially forming a defensive identity with he, Wemby, and Castle all starting together.

He isn't skilled enough to attack defenders off the dribble. He is what he is. It's his third year and he isn't going to suddenly be a transformed different player exhibiting skills he never showed before.

[rascal]

Right. Because mathematically he isn't even making a 3 a game, so who cares about how his shot looks? And this is on wide open 3's. Has anyone ever contested a Jeremy Sochan 3 in his entire career :rollin

Good point

His so called improvement in shooting has to be taken into context.

[ambchang]

Sochan doesn’t have to be a strong shooter, he just has to have the ability to shoot quickly when wide open and make them at an average rate. The point isn’t for him to make the three, the point is so that the defence can’t collapse off of him totally which is why shooting it quickly is key. If he takes forever to wind up and shoot, even if he can shoot at a decent rate, it gives the defense time to rotate and close out after doubling far off him, but if he can launch it quickly and hit them at a respectable rate, then the defense would at least have to be within the vicinity of him which opens up the lane for everybody else.

Of course, ideally, PATFO can design a system where players can actually cut to the basket for easy layups and sochan would be ideal for that role.

[The Truth #6]

He isn't skilled enough to attack defenders off the dribble. He is what he is. It's his third year and he isn't going to suddenly be a transformed different player exhibiting skills he never showed before.

He may improve enough. If he's guarded by small forwards he may be able to back them in a few times a game. That's all I'm talking about. Find some role on offense in limited moments if paired with a strong shooting 4. Not talking about showcasing him.

[scott]

SpursTalk has a lot of sniffers, homers and whatnot... but at least we don't have anyone who is THIS hard of a Sochan Stan: https://www.reddit.com/r/NBASpurs/comments/1jdor3i/sochan_is_closing_the_gap_bit_by_bit_on_doncic/

[ambchang]

SpursTalk has a lot of sniffers, homers and whatnot... but at least we don't have anyone who is THIS hard of a Sochan Stan: https://www.reddit.com/r/NBASpurs/comments/1jdor3i/sochan_is_closing_the_gap_bit_by_bit_on_doncic/

Well doncic is playing worse than he did last year and sochan is playing better, so technically sochan is closing the gap. Note the guy didn’t say sochan closed the gap, just closing. It’s like I’m closing the wealth gap with Elon musk because he lost a few hundred billion dollars in the last few months.

[spurraider21]

Well doncic is playing worse than he did last year and sochan is playing better, so technically sochan is closing the gap. Note the guy didn’t say sochan closed the gap, just closing. It’s like I’m closing the wealth gap with Elon musk because he lost a few hundred billion dollars in the last few months.
https://media.tenor.com/1FWLWyDTI0YAAAAe/ugh-sigh.png

[cutewizard]

The critical question is

Is Jeremy better suited to the bench or a starting position?

What will be his role next season?

[KobesAchilles]

The critical question is

Is Jeremy better suited to the bench or a starting position?

What will be his role next season?
There is no critical question anymore when it comes to Sochan. He is a bench player. Offer him a bench player contract. Maybe he outperforms it but it’s on him to improve.

Sochan has made 26 more three pointers than I have this season. On wide fucking open attempts. He isn’t a starter. And his role is to get play 25 minutes of hard defense, rebounding, and hustle. That’s it.

[Raven]

The critical question is

Is Jeremy better suited to the bench or a starting position?

What will be his role next season?

that depends on the spurs identity for the future. Normal spurs keep sochan a starter for 15 years, future spurs may perhaps be your run of the mill all offence type of team, in which case it's debatable.

[KobesAchilles]

that depends on the spurs identity for the future. Normal spurs keep sochan a starter for 15 years, future spurs may perhaps be your run of the mill all offence type of team, in which case it's debatable.
Imagine having the DPOY for the next 10 years and saying we will be a run of the mill all offense team. In no way does Sochan ever start on any Spurs team that wants to win. I have to go back to maybe 2011 with Sochan over Blair. But Sochan doesn’t start on any Robinson team that had TC or Rodman. He doesn’t start in the twin towers era. He doesn’t start in the 04-2010 era when we won 2 titles. And he doesn’t start in 2012-2018.

The shit you say without actually thinking about what you say is hilarious. Instead of making blanket statements, go back and actually tell me the time when we were contenders that Sochan would start. I went back 35 years and couldn’t do it. But enlighten me to how a bench player like Sochan is now all of a sudden considered in any way shape or form the identity of the whole fucking franchise.

[ambchang]

Probably one of the biggest sochan fans here but sochan is probably best served as a defensive wing stopper type who cuts to the basket for easy buckets. He can’t create any type of offence, or be a reliable spot up shooter. He can be a useful offensive player crashing the boards for offensive put backs or outlets on defensive rebounds. He can run the floor decently well and is a very good cutter. If Fox turns into a lights out shooter and castle into an above average shooter, then you add on a shooting 4, sochan may be a fit in the starting lineup.

If he is coming off the bench his best strength is actually diminished, because any team would start their best perimeter offensive player, so who would sochan Huard coming off the bench?

[Raven]

i never claimed he'd play in those teams, of course he wouldn't.. he would be a starter on THIS spurs, with the "spurs way" of that era..

[ambchang]

Probably one of the biggest sochan fans here but sochan is probably best served as a defensive wing stopper type who cuts to the basket for easy buckets. He can’t create any type of offence, or be a reliable spot up shooter. He can be a useful offensive player crashing the boards for offensive put backs or outlets on defensive rebounds. He can run the floor decently well and is a very good cutter. If Fox turns into a lights out shooter and castle into an above average shooter, then you add on a shooting 4, sochan may be a fit in the starting lineup.

If he is coming off the bench his best strength is actually diminished, because any team would start their best perimeter offensive player, so who would sochan guard coming off the bench?

As for the question to which spurs team can start on in the last 35 years, I can see him starting in place of (not over) Rasho or nazr, he may even be able to start on the 01 or 02 team as shooting wasn’t as important back then. Could be a downgraded version of Bruce Bowen to an extent, depending on how much he can get away with and hed better start nailing those corner threes. Would be a stretch but it’s doable.

[DAF86]

I’ve been reliably informed that his improved % and better looking shot doesn’t matter because of the 1.4 attempts.

And you've been informed right, a higher shooting % on much lower volume because of cherry picking, doesn't mean shit, tbh.

Anyways, I came here to actually praise Sochan, by posting this:

r-V76U2vY50?si=j-Yf1EFW77o1q-ER

[rascal]

Imagine having the DPOY for the next 10 years and saying we will be a run of the mill all offense team. In no way does Sochan ever start on any Spurs team that wants to win. I have to go back to maybe 2011 with Sochan over Blair. But Sochan doesn’t start on any Robinson team that had TC or Rodman. He doesn’t start in the twin towers era. He doesn’t start in the 04-2010 era when we won 2 titles. And he doesn’t start in 2012-2018.

The shit you say without actually thinking about what you say is hilarious. Instead of making blanket statements, go back and actually tell me the time when we were contenders that Sochan would start. I went back 35 years and couldn’t do it. But enlighten me to how a bench player like Sochan is now all of a sudden considered in any way shape or form the identity of the whole fucking franchise.

Who is better Sochan or Malik Rose?

[KobesAchilles]

Who is better Sochan or Malik Rose?
As bench players? Sochan is more overall skilled but I like Malik’s toughness and mentality. Btw if you’re trying to suggest that Malik was our regular starter then no he wasn’t. We had Robinson and then Rasho

[exstatic]

And you've been informed right, a higher shooting % on much lower volume because of cherry picking, doesn't mean shit, tbh.

Anyways, I came here to actually praise Sochan, by posting this:

r-V76U2vY50?si=j-Yf1EFW77o1q-ER

Would you rather have Jeremy shooting 20% on 1.4 or 34% with a nice backspin?

[rascal]

Would you rather have Jeremy shooting 20% on 1.4 or 34% with a nice backspin?

That 34% just dopped to 32.9% with just an 0-3 game. That's why the limited shot attempts is important when claiming he's now a 34% shooter.

[exstatic]

That 34% just dopped to 32.9% with just an 0-3 game. That's why the limited shot attempts is important when claiming he's now a 34% shooter.

I never claimed that this was an endpoint, or that he was a finished product. Some folks here just don’t want to even acknowledge improvement in the percentage and the overall shot, with the 45 degree axial tilt gone. Misery and pessimism are powerful drugs,I guess.

[LeBowen]

I never claimed that this was an endpoint, or that he was a finished product. Some folks here just don’t want to even acknowledge improvement in the percentage and the overall shot, with the 45 degree axial tilt gone. Misery and pessimism are powerful drugs,I guess.

Imo, his percentage is completely irrelevant as long as opponents are leaving him completely wide open and daring him to shoot.
When you start seeing players try to contest his shot, that's when his progress will be noticable enough to actually impact the game.

Yeah, he's working on his mechanics, but even bigs who basically never took at 3pt in an actual game can hit them consistently in practice.

[Ice009]

Look, I used to get mad at guys Danny Green for clanging wide open shots as I felt I could make a higher percentage of those than him. When you're open and you're a good shooter, it's almost like a free throw. This is strictly on wide open shots, as I'm not talking about when an NBA level defender is closing out fast on you and can also block your shot with their athleticism (or at least affect/change the shot), that's a completely different story (even good shooters can struggle with that).

The key point is, Jeremy is being left open, and if you're still only shooting 32% being left open, that is not very good at all. Sure, there a worse shooters percentage wise, but some of those guys aren't being left completely open (they'd probably hit a higher percentage unguarded). It's also too small of a sample size in Jeremy's case.

We need to see what it's like with defense being played on him. In the playoffs, that won't happen with even an average shooter (unless it's a defensive breakdown or great ball movement to get that open shot). His 32% could go way down if he's guarded.

Point is, do not get excited and encouraged by his shooting percentage going to to 34% when all the shots are wide open. It doesn't really tell us much about if his shooting has improved enough to say he's a competent shooter.

[Seventyniner]

Probably one of the biggest sochan fans here but sochan is probably best served as a defensive wing stopper type who cuts to the basket for easy buckets. He can’t create any type of offence, or be a reliable spot up shooter. He can be a useful offensive player crashing the boards for offensive put backs or outlets on defensive rebounds. He can run the floor decently well and is a very good cutter. If Fox turns into a lights out shooter and castle into an above average shooter, then you add on a shooting 4, sochan may be a fit in the starting lineup.

If he is coming off the bench his best strength is actually diminished, because any team would start their best perimeter offensive player, so who would sochan guard coming off the bench?

As for the question to which spurs team can start on in the last 35 years, I can see him starting in place of (not over) Rasho or nazr, he may even be able to start on the 01 or 02 team as shooting wasn’t as important back then. Could be a downgraded version of Bruce Bowen to an extent, depending on how much he can get away with and hed better start nailing those corner threes. Would be a stretch but it’s doable.

This is where I'm at on Sochan, especially the bold part. I think I would rather the Spurs let Sochan walk than sign him to an extension with the intention of him coming off the bench.

I don't even think Fox and Castle have to have big improvements as three point shooters in order for Sochan to fit in the starting lineup. Just being average to slightly below (34%) is good enough imo. The purpose of having a lineup with both Castle and Sochan is to play lockdown defense, which is easier than on most teams due to the all-universe rim protector behind them. The Rockets have cobbled together a pretty good season even while starting two non-threats from three (Amen, Sengun) by focusing on defense. Acting like Sochan must become a good three-point shooter to fit in the starting lineup doesn't make sense imo.

[KobesAchilles]

This is where I'm at on Sochan, especially the bold part. I think I would rather the Spurs let Sochan walk than sign him to an extension with the intention of him coming off the bench.

I don't even think Fox and Castle have to have big improvements as three point shooters in order for Sochan to fit in the starting lineup. Just being average to slightly below (34%) is good enough imo. The purpose of having a lineup with both Castle and Sochan is to play lockdown defense, which is easier than on most teams due to the all-universe rim protector behind them. The Rockets have cobbled together a pretty good season even while starting two non-threats from three (Amen, Sengun) by focusing on defense. Acting like Sochan must become a good three-point shooter to fit in the starting lineup doesn't make sense imo.
Amen is probably the most athletic player in the league. And he has actual point guard skills. If Sochan played anything like Amen then we he would be a starter. He isn’t blazing fast. He isn’t that athletic and he doesn’t really know how to play on the offensive end at all. Also Sengun while not being a 3 point threat is a threat to score from everywhere else. Sengun is a monster on the offensive end and just knows how to play the game. He’s just so much smarter than Sochan that is isn’t fair to compare them at all.

And your point about letting Sochan walk instead of having him as a bench player is pretty much as big a miss as a person can have. Every contender would have him as a bench player. He wouldn’t start on OKC, Hou, Mem, Boston, Cavs, NYK, Denver, Det, etc etc. He would start on the Wizards so I guess there is that.

And believe it or not, teams do play their players more than 28 minutes a game so I’m sure there would be times where Sochan would be matched up against better offensive players.

[LeBowen]

He isn’t that athletic and he doesn’t really know how to play on the offensive end at all.

Jeremy being allowed to dribble inside the paint when it's not a big mismatch is one of the most annoying things for me. It ends with him either losing the dribble and not knowing where to kick it out or he just attempts a random shot that rarely goes in.
I understand it's something they want him to develop, but he's just not that guy.

[exstatic]

Jeremy being allowed to dribble inside the paint when it's not a big mismatch is one of the most annoying things for me. It ends with him either losing the dribble and not knowing where to kick it out or he just attempts a random shot that rarely goes in.
I understand it's something they want him to develop, but he's just not that guy.

He shouldn’t attack bigger guys in the paint. If he doesn’t beat them on the perimeter, he needs to reset the play and kick it to someone else.

[Seventyniner]

Amen is probably the most athletic player in the league. And he has actual point guard skills. If Sochan played anything like Amen then we he would be a starter. He isn’t blazing fast. He isn’t that athletic and he doesn’t really know how to play on the offensive end at all. Also Sengun while not being a 3 point threat is a threat to score from everywhere else. Sengun is a monster on the offensive end and just knows how to play the game. He’s just so much smarter than Sochan that is isn’t fair to compare them at all.

And your point about letting Sochan walk instead of having him as a bench player is pretty much as big a miss as a person can have. Every contender would have him as a bench player. He wouldn’t start on OKC, Hou, Mem, Boston, Cavs, NYK, Denver, Det, etc etc. He would start on the Wizards so I guess there is that.

And believe it or not, teams do play their players more than 28 minutes a game so I’m sure there would be times where Sochan would be matched up against better offensive players.

I'm not comparing Sochan to either Amen or Sengun. I'm saying that a lineup can be functional with at least one non-shooter, and Castle has shown enough this season that he doesn't rate as a non-shooter.

The point of starting Sochan is so his minutes line up with the biggest wing or guard threat on the opposing team. His biggest strength is wasted coming off the bench.

[KobesAchilles]

I'm not comparing Sochan to either Amen or Sengun. I'm saying that a lineup can be functional with at least one non-shooter, and Castle has shown enough this season that he doesn't rate as a non-shooter.

The point of starting Sochan is so his minutes line up with the biggest wing or guard threat on the opposing team. His biggest strength is wasted coming off the bench.
Sochan isn’t a starter on any other contending team and yet you want him to start for us? It makes zero sense. Idgaf if we aren’t putting our bench players in 100% optimal position when he isn’t even 100% optimal for the team as a starter. He isn’t as good as Sengun or Thompson so the fact that they aren’t shooters doesn’t matter. If Sochan was a better player he wouldn’t be in the position he is in, but he’s not that good a player so we regulated his ass to the bench. Just like Houston would do btw.

I mean some of yall are ridiculous with the Sochan love to the point that it’s not realistic. Some people want to pay him 5 years $100 million bc somehow that’s a steal. Other people are saying his shooting has improved when it hasn’t. Once again, he has made 26 threes all season on wide open attempts. His shooting is still atrocious. And then others saying we should just get rid of him instead of benching him when every other contender would bench him anyways. Then we are comparing Sochan to all star Sengun and all world athlete Amen and saying well it works for Houston. Yes bc they are both better than Sochan. Swap Thompson for Sochan and that shit wouldn’t work for Hou and we would improve.

[Seventyniner]

Sochan isn’t a starter on any other contending team and yet you want him to start for us?

Yes. Sochan's skill set fits a lineup with Fox/Castle/Wemby quite well as long as the other forward is a decent shooter and defender, which the Spurs want their other forward to be anyway even if Sochan doesn't start.

Whether or not he would start for any other teams doesn't matter because he isn't on those teams. There are plenty of contenders Castle wouldn't start for, does that mean the Spurs should bring him off the bench?


Some people want to pay him 5 years $100 million bc somehow that’s a steal.

Who said that? Name names.

[LeBowen]

Yes. Sochan's skill set fits a lineup with Fox/Castle/Wemby quite well as long as the other forward is a decent shooter and defender, which the Spurs want their other forward to be anyway even if Sochan doesn't start.

It does not.
Fox and Castle will both always drive into the paint as the first option and Wemby would prefer having a PF who can shoot the ball so it's more difficult for the opposition to crowd him.
If Fox/Castle/Barnes/?/Wemby is the starting lineup for the next season, you can't tell me that starting Sochan would be better than having a PF with a reliable 3pt shot.
Maybe we could manage with Jeremy, but that doesn't mean having a shooter in his place wouldn't be better.


Whether or not he would start for any other teams doesn't matter because he isn't on those teams.

It kind of does. It determines his value. For example he can ask for 100/5, but Spurs can just tell him to come back with the best offer he gets from another team and match it if he's not extended this summer.
There's actually no need to extend him right away, let him earn that contract.


There are plenty of contenders Castle wouldn't start for, does that mean the Spurs should bring him off the bench?

Castle has shown great improvement on month to month basis in his rookie season. It's Jeremy's third year and he's always the least threatening regular rotation member on offense. He's the guy opposing coaches are fine with taking the shot.

[KobesAchilles]

Fantastic work on that comparison. :bobo

I especially like your method of estimating gravity as a shooter. It shows that Sochan has essentially none, which agrees with the eye test.

I think the backlash against 100/5 is the extra digit in the number, or at least the sense that $100M is "too much" for someone like Sochan. That's why it's best to look at contracts in terms of % of the cap rather than absolute dollar amounts, especially with the cap growing so quickly. The MLE starts at 9% of the cap; 10% is hardly onerous for a young key role-player.

imo 100/5 is fair value, 90/5 would be team-friendly, and 80/5 would be a steal.
Name

[Seventyniner]

Name

I figured you would bring that up. I said 80/5 would be a steal, not 100/5.


Some people want to pay him 5 years $100 million bc somehow that’s a steal.

[Seventyniner]

It does not.
Fox and Castle will both always drive into the paint as the first option and Wemby would prefer having a PF who can shoot the ball so it's more difficult for the opposition to crowd him.
If Fox/Castle/Barnes/?/Wemby is the starting lineup for the next season, you can't tell me that starting Sochan would be better than having a PF with a reliable 3pt shot.
Maybe we could manage with Jeremy, but that doesn't mean having a shooter in his place wouldn't be better.

You're only looking at one end of the floor. Sochan is a fantastic defender, and my contention is that he will add more to the table (defense) than he takes off it (offense), and would do a better job of that in the starting lineup where Fox and Wemby will be using up the lion's share of the possessions.


It kind of does. It determines his value. For example he can ask for 100/5, but Spurs can just tell him to come back with the best offer he gets from another team and match it if he's not extended this summer.
There's actually no need to extend him right away, let him earn that contract.

Sochan can ask for whatever he wants regardless of his potential fit on other teams. The risks of letting him hit RFA and not extending are that he improves his play enough next season to warrant more than he would have gotten in an extension, and that he might get pissed off at having to wait a year (risking a major injury) and ask the Spurs not to match any offer, which the Spurs would likely grant the way they tend to operate.


Castle has shown great improvement on month to month basis in his rookie season. It's Jeremy's third year and he's always the least threatening regular rotation member on offense. He's the guy opposing coaches are fine with taking the shot.

I don't see how that disproves my point.

And anyway, Sochan's TS% this year is 0.600. That's above league average and should be perfectly acceptable from the 5th option.

[scott]

There's actually no need to extend him right away, let him earn that contract.





IMO, this is the way. I would simply let him hit RFA next year and see what the market looks like. You may even find you're better off just renouncing him if he doesn't take a step forward next season.

[spurraider21]

yeah the only good reason to extend him is if he takes a very team friendly deal, and i dont see why he would do that. he'd rather bet on himself and see if he can play himself into a nice payday. if he improves enough to warrant it, i'd be gald to pay him at that time

we are at a point where we cant just extend everybody with a pulse

[Mal]

yeah the only good reason to extend him is if he takes a very team friendly deal, and i dont see why he would do that. he'd rather bet on himself and see if he can play himself into a nice payday. if he improves enough to warrant it, i'd be gald to pay him at that time

we are at a point where we cant just extend everybody with a pulse

If Spurs propose to him something like 100/5, which they should. He would have have 130/5 deal already in the bag, which he cant have, to refuse it. Its 100 mil, he would be set for life at age 22.

And how would he prove himself in roster behind Wemby, Fox, Castle, 2025 FRP and Vassell ? Noone would overpay defensive specialis and dont see him putting some good raw numbers. I can see him putting some decent adavanced metrics.

[rascal]

With Sochan on the floor it hurts Castle and Fox as Sochan's man can drift into the lane and make it harder for Fox and Castle to get to the basket which is their strenghts.

Like others have said until Sochan can shoot well enough that his shot needs to be guarded then he is a team liability on offense.

It would be interesting to know what Castle's shooting stats are with Sochan on the floor as compared to when Sochan is not on the floor.

[scott]

If Spurs propose to him something like 100/5, which they should. He would have have 130/5 deal already in the bag, which he cant have, to refuse it. Its 100 mil, he would be set for life at age 22.

And how would he prove himself in roster behind Wemby, Fox, Castle, 2025 FRP and Vassell ? Noone would overpay defensive specialis and dont see him putting some good raw numbers. I can see him putting some decent adavanced metrics.

No one would overpay defensive specialists... so we should?

If he's going to be behind all those guys, why are you so eager to pay him 5/100?

[LeBowen]

You're only looking at one end of the floor. Sochan is a fantastic defender, and my contention is that he will add more to the table (defense) than he takes off it (offense), and would do a better job of that in the starting lineup where Fox and Wemby will be using up the lion's share of the possessions.

Sochan is a very good defender, but I wouldn't call him fantastic.
And who's saying that the 3pt shooter I suggested wouldn't be a good defender?
Would you take Sochan over PJ Washington?
If we're talking about players who aren't elite defensively, you think Naz Reid or Aldama would make our starting lineup worse than Jeremy?
Those three are my preferred realistic targets for PF position.

Just look at our current roster. If we exclude players without enough volume, our 3pt% is tragic.
Barnes 43%
CP3 38%
Champ 36%
Wemby 35%
Devin 35%
Keldon 33%
Castle 29% (will improve)
Fox 27% (finger issue)

We need at least one more elite shooter like Barnes and a couple more 36-38% shooters.


The risks of letting him hit RFA and not extending are that he improves his play enough next season to warrant more than he would have gotten in an extension

Unexpected leaps can happen, but I don't really believe in miracles.

https://i.imgur.com/Tchlz3t.png

The only noticable improvement across all those categories is his FG% this season, mostly because the ball has been taken away from him and he's a finisher who doesn't create much.
It's the Ben Simmons syndrome. Not in terms of work ethic, but in terms of not developing any skills and being the same player he was in his rookie year, just more experienced.


and that he might get pissed off at having to wait a year (risking a major injury) and ask the Spurs not to match any offer

What's he going to do? Bank on someone offering him a good deal even though he has no offensive game whatsoever? Cap situation has changed a lot with the new CBA and every competent GM will be really careful with role player contracts.
Modern NBA is a two-way game. There's very little room for specialists in the playoffs. Elite shooters who can't defend get benched, but the same thing happens to elite defenders who have no offensive game.


I don't see how that disproves my point.

It disproves your point because some players warrant minutes based on their potential. It's true that not many teams would be starting Castle if this was his ceiling, but Jeremy hasn't shown this isn't his current ceiling. That's the issue.


Sochan's TS% this year is 0.600. That's above league average and should be perfectly acceptable from the 5th option.

As much as I hate Lebron's gimmicks, "two points aren't two points" is one of the best things he ever said.
Already explained it, but Jeremy's TS% went up because he's not asked to do anything other than score easy baskets and fight for offensive rebounds.
His output is acceptable for 5th option, but the question is what percentage of total cap would you give to 5th option? Even if we include both ends of the floor, best case for Jeremy is 4th option and that's also unlikely.

I'd personally keep him as the glue guy and enforcer, defensive specialist who can do the dirty work off the bench, but he shouldn't be a player that influences other moves. If we can get better wings, tough luck for him.

[exstatic]

Sochan is a very good defender, but I wouldn't call him fantastic.
And who's saying that the 3pt shooter I suggested wouldn't be a good defender?
Would you take Sochan over PJ Washington?
If we're talking about players who aren't elite defensively, you think Naz Reid or Aldama would make our starting lineup worse than Jeremy?
Those three are my preferred realistic targets for PF position.

Just look at our current roster. If we exclude players without enough volume, our 3pt% is tragic.
Barnes 43%
CP3 38%
Champ 36%
Wemby 35%
Devin 35%
Keldon 33%
Castle 29% (will improve)
Fox 27% (finger issue)

We need at least one more elite shooter like Barnes and a couple more 36-38% shooters.



Unexpected leaps can happen, but I don't really believe in miracles.

https://i.imgur.com/Tchlz3t.png

The only noticable improvement across all those categories is his FG% this season, mostly because the ball has been taken away from him and he's a finisher who doesn't create much.
It's the Ben Simmons syndrome. Not in terms of work ethic, but in terms of not developing any skills and being the same player he was in his rookie year, just more experienced.



What's he going to do? Bank on someone offering him a good deal even though he has no offensive game whatsoever? Cap situation has changed a lot with the new CBA and every competent GM will be really careful with role player contracts.
Modern NBA is a two-way game. There's very little room for specialists in the playoffs. Elite shooters who can't defend get benched, but the same thing happens to elite defenders who have no offensive game.



It disproves your point because some players warrant minutes based on their potential. It's true that not many teams would be starting Castle if this was his ceiling, but Jeremy hasn't shown this isn't his current ceiling. That's the issue.



As much as I hate Lebron's gimmicks, "two points aren't two points" is one of the best things he ever said.
Already explained it, but Jeremy's TS% went up because he's not asked to do anything other than score easy baskets and fight for offensive rebounds.
His output is acceptable for 5th option, but the question is what percentage of total cap would you give to 5th option? Even if we include both ends of the floor, best case for Jeremy is 4th option and that's also unlikely.

I'd personally keep him as the glue guy and enforcer, defensive specialist who can do the dirty work off the bench, but he shouldn't be a player that influences other moves. If we can get better wings, tough luck for him.

You don’t understand Ben Simmons career at all. He never failed to progress. In his first 4 seasons,he was all rookie, 3 time all star, 2 times all D, and one time All NBA. That is SERIOUS fucking progress for the first 4 years. He stands a very good chance of being out of the league after 8 seasons at age 28. That is literally nothing like any trajectory that Sochan is on or could ever be on. The only person I can compare Simmons to is Nikola Tesla, who spent the first half of his career unveiling innovative invention after invention, and the second half announcing grandiose theories backed by nothing, and coming inventions that never materialized.

[LeBowen]

You don’t understand Ben Simmons career at all. He never failed to progress. In his first 4 seasons,he was all rookie, 3 time all star, 2 times all D, and one time All NBA. That is SERIOUS fucking progress for the first 4 years. He stands a very good chance of being out of the league after 8 seasons at age 28. That is literally nothing like any trajectory that Sochan is on or could ever be on. The only person I can compare Simmons to is Nikola Tesla, who spent the first half of his career unveiling innovative invention after invention, and the second half announcing grandiose theories backed by nothing, and coming inventions that never materialized.

Simmons made progress if we're talking achievements, but he was the same player in his rookie and fourth season.
He was very good right away, but that was his ceiling for whatever reason.

Jeremy looks like he's also not going to make any relevant leaps from his rookie season.
Don't overcomplicate everything, ffs.

[exstatic]

Simmons made progress if we're talking achievements, but he was the same player in his rookie and fourth season.
He was very good right away, but that was his ceiling for whatever reason.

Jeremy looks like he's also not going to make any relevant leaps from his rookie season.
Don't overcomplicate everything, ffs.

:rollin Simmons year 1-4 is a plateau that nearly any player would take for a career. I’m not the one over complicating things. Your pretzel logic and tortured comparisons are the very definition of overcomplicating. Any time anyone want to throw shade at a player, they call him a Ben Simmons type of guy, and it’s never valid,because there’s never been another case of a player on the cusp of superstardom who fell off a cliff that hard. Never once.

[LeBowen]

:rollin Simmons year 1-4 is a plateau that nearly any player would take for a career. I’m not the one over complicating things. Your pretzel logic and tortured comparisons are the very definition of overcomplicating. Any time anyone want to throw shade at a player, they call him a Ben Simmons type of guy, and it’s never valid,because there’s never been another case of a player on the cusp of superstardom who fell off a cliff that hard. Never once.

Yes, you are overcomplicating because you have this weird obsession with being a smartass.
I think I was clear enough when I made my point, it's just that you took it in a completely different direction because that's what you do.

Ben Simmons syndrome: Player's rookie season level being close to their peak ceiling.
Now stop being a smartass and watch the game.

[DAF86]

Would you rather have Jeremy shooting 20% on 1.4 or 34% with a nice backspin?

I don't know why those have to be the options :lol. 34% on miniscule volume isn't good at all. Stop trying to pretend it is.

[couchman]

After watching this horrific defence the last few weeks I’m inclined to have the team lean into a defensive identity going forward.
Fox, Castle, Barnes, Sochan, Wemby has the potential total to play very good D.
On offense we don’t need Sochan to shoot 3s because he becomes the PNR roller with Fox or Castle, while Wemby gets to play off ball as a spot up shooter and slasher.
This can increase Wemby’s efficiency and stamina to have him truly play a KD style role on offense.
Sochan sets better picks and rolls to the basket better than Wemby anyways.

[Mal]

No one would overpay defensive specialists... so we should?

If he's going to be behind all those guys, why are you so eager to pay him 5/100?

MLE is 18 mil. That's slight above it. You have to pay your players, dont be cheap.

110% of MLE is market value.

[John B]

After watching this horrific defence the last few weeks I’m inclined to have the team lean into a defensive identity going forward.
Fox, Castle, Barnes, Sochan, Wemby has the potential total to play very good D.
On offense we don’t need Sochan to shoot 3s because he becomes the PNR roller with Fox or Castle, while Wemby gets to play off ball as a spot up shooter and slasher.
This can increase Wemby’s efficiency and stamina to have him truly play a KD style role on offense.
Sochan sets better picks and rolls to the basket better than Wemby anyways.

You know that pick n roll also requires the roller to shoot occasionally not just roll to the basket, right?

[Mal]

You know that pick n roll also requires the roller to shoot occasionally not just roll to the basket, right?

No, its not. If you roll every single time, and defense respect it, its either creating mismatch or bringing help defender to paint, leaving someone open for 3

[exstatic]

You know that pick n roll also requires the roller to shoot occasionally not just roll to the basket, right?

Shooting out of that pick action is called a pick and pop, so the pick and roll is 100% roll, hence the name.

[MannyIsGod]

I never claimed that this was an endpoint, or that he was a finished product. Some folks here just don’t want to even acknowledge improvement in the percentage and the overall shot, with the 45 degree axial tilt gone. Misery and pessimism are powerful drugs,I guess.

A short term increase in shooting percentage may or not be indicative of an improvement. Sochan has had months where he shot very high 3%. So have others like Keldon. Unless it lasts its not improvement just short term variance.

Its not about misery or pessimism but realism. You want to latch onto any short term trend and act like it is real but that's not how things work and I can point you to a lot of examples that show why. You're projecting man, other people aren't being pessimistic you're just not realistic and you're not using stats properly.

[MannyIsGod]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sochaje01/splits/2024

[MannyIsGod]

IMO, this is the way. I would simply let him hit RFA next year and see what the market looks like. You may even find you're better off just renouncing him if he doesn't take a step forward next season.

Exactly this. Spurs can not afford to lock up mediocre players in anymore long term contracts.

[scott]

MLE is 18 mil. That's slight above it. You have to pay your players, dont be cheap.

110% of MLE is market value.

Expected MLE next year is $14.1MM. 110% would be $15.5. 4/62 sounds about right for Sochan.

[scott]

A short term increase in shooting percentage may or not be indicative of an improvement. Sochan has had months where he shot very high 3%. So have others like Keldon. Unless it lasts its not improvement just short term variance.

Its not about misery or pessimism but realism. You want to latch onto any short term trend and act like it is real but that's not how things work and I can point you to a lot of examples that show why. You're projecting man, other people aren't being pessimistic you're just not realistic and you're not using stats properly.

Can't believe you'd suggest that the guy who said "Devin Vassell has definitely turned a fucking corner" after a 4 game sample would confuse short term trends with real change.

[Jordan Jackson]

I just saw a tweet from some Spur fan declaring Sochan is easily going to get 5/125. We don’t understand basketball blah blah blah.

I can tell you this, if the Spurs did that we would have to have a serious conversation about this front office. That would be irresponsible and insane.

[KobesAchilles]

Expected MLE next year is $14.1MM. 110% would be $15.5. 4/62 sounds about right for Sochan.
These people keep making up numbers to back up their supposedly sane idea of giving Sochan $100 for his contract. I’ve already stated the MLE is 14 million a year and that’s our end point. The max I’d offer him is the max other teams would offer him. There’s zero reason to bid against ourselves with a bench player/ low end starter. I want to know the contender that would offer him more than the MLE. There is none. And if a shitty team wants to offer him a huge contract then let them. He’d look real good in red, white, and blue for the wizards :lol

[scott]

These people keep making up numbers to back up their supposedly sane idea of giving Sochan $100 for his contract. I’ve already stated the MLE is 14 million a year and that’s our end point. The max I’d offer him is the max other teams would offer him. There’s zero reason to bid against ourselves with a bench player/ low end starter. I want to know the contender that would offer him more than the MLE. There is none. And if a shitty team wants to offer him a huge contract then let them. He’d look real good in red, white, and blue for the wizards :lol

Yeah, it’s legitimately nuts to want to offer Jeremy Sochan the kind of money that Aldama or Naz will get. No GM in their right mind would choose Sochan over either of those guys right now, all else equal.

[dbestpro]

The problem with Sochan is when he has a good game he goes into hero ball mode and stinks for several games to follow.

[Seventyniner]

Sochan is a very good defender, but I wouldn't call him fantastic.
And who's saying that the 3pt shooter I suggested wouldn't be a good defender?
Would you take Sochan over PJ Washington?
If we're talking about players who aren't elite defensively, you think Naz Reid or Aldama would make our starting lineup worse than Jeremy?
Those three are my preferred realistic targets for PF position.

Hard to say if I'd take Washington over Sochan without knowing who the other starting forward is.
If the Spurs get Reid or Aldama I would start Sochan alongside him and bring Barnes off the bench. Sochan guards from 1-4 anyway, it's not like he has to be a PF only.


Just look at our current roster. If we exclude players without enough volume, our 3pt% is tragic.

The Spurs are 18th in the league in 3PT% this season, close to the Lakers and above the Rockets. A high 3PT% is not necessary to be a good team, and Sochan shooting f


The only noticable improvement across all those categories is his FG% this season, mostly because the ball has been taken away from him and he's a finisher who doesn't create much.
It's the Ben Simmons syndrome. Not in terms of work ethic, but in terms of not developing any skills and being the same player he was in his rookie year, just more experienced.

You're only looking at totals. He made a mini-leap this season: he's playing 4.1 MPG fewer than last season (14%, not an insignificant number) and is putting up the same REB/BLK/STL numbers. His rebounding and shooting percentages have been much better this season than last.


It disproves your point because some players warrant minutes based on their potential. It's true that not many teams would be starting Castle if this was his ceiling, but Jeremy hasn't shown this isn't his current ceiling. That's the issue.

The original statement was this.


Sochan isn’t a starter on any other contending team and yet you want him to start for us?

The same argument says Castle shouldn't start for us right now because he wouldn't start for other contenders. Nothing to do with potential.


As much as I hate Lebron's gimmicks, "two points aren't two points" is one of the best things he ever said.
Already explained it, but Jeremy's TS% went up because he's not asked to do anything other than score easy baskets and fight for offensive rebounds.

What's wrong with that?


His output is acceptable for 5th option, but the question is what percentage of total cap would you give to 5th option? Even if we include both ends of the floor, best case for Jeremy is 4th option and that's also unlikely.

A full MLE salary (9.12% of the cap) would be tied for the 127th highest paid player this season, so on average it would be between the 4th and 5th biggest contract on a team.


I'd personally keep him as the glue guy and enforcer, defensive specialist who can do the dirty work off the bench, but he shouldn't be a player that influences other moves. If we can get better wings, tough luck for him.

Defensive specialist/garbage man/5th option is exactly the kind of player you want in the starting lineup playing most of his minutes with your stars.

[Seventyniner]

Expected MLE next year is $14.1MM. 110% would be $15.5. 4/62 sounds about right for Sochan.

A 4-year deal starting at $15.5M with max 8% raises is 69/4. But Sochan's extension wouldn't start until 2026-2027 so that $15.5M starting number will be 100% of the MLE at that time, not 110%. A 110% of MLE deal starting in 2026-2027 would be 76/4.

Adding a 5th year makes it 90/5 (100% MLE) or 99/5 (110%).

[scott]

A full MLE salary (9.12% of the cap) would be tied for the 127th highest paid player this season, so on average it would be between the 4th and 5th biggest contract on a team.

He's a 33rd percentile player in LEBRON and 40th percentile player in DARKO. So why so eager to pay him in 72nd percentile of all players (which would be the 127th higher paid player)?

[scott]

A 4-year deal starting at $15.5M with max 8% raises is 69/4. But Sochan's extension wouldn't start until 2026-2027 so that $15.5M starting number will be 100% of the MLE at that time, not 110%. A 110% of MLE deal starting in 2026-2027 would be 76/4.

Adding a 5th year makes it 90/5 (100% MLE) or 99/5 (110%).

(This of course is my opinion if I were the GM, not indicative of what the Spurs would actually do) If he wants an extension this summer, I'm willing to give him a flat deal at next year's MLE. If he wants to start at the MLE the year after, he can wait until a year after. It's pretty simple.

I know you're a big proponent of the 5th year, but I'm not. There is enough risk that this guy next takes the step needed and if that's the case I don't want to be stuck with his 5th year.

[CGD]

Yall are hillarious. You'd think Holt's money was yours.

Keldon got 75M/4year, and I seriously doubt Jermey gets anything less that (adjusted for the new cap). Deal starting in low $20M is totally in play.

[scott]

Yall are hillarious. You'd think Holt's money was yours.

Keldon got 75M/4year, and I seriously doubt Jermey gets anything less that (adjusted for the new cap). Deal starting in low $20M is totally in play.

You're conflating multiple decent points in order to make a terrible one. Congrats?

1) Save for a few cranky boomers, no one gives a shit about the money. I'm sure most of us are happy that all of these young men are getting rich. Holt isn't going to lower prices or send me a rebate if he decides to be a cheap ass.

2) What a lot of us do care about is how overpaying guys restricts our ability to make the team better. Why not just give everyone the max if it's not our money? What a braindead thing to say.

3) "We made a mistake with Keldon's deal, surely we'll double down and do the same with Sochan!" This one is the icing on the illogical cake. With that said, at this point in Keldon's career, he was actually a better player than Sochan. Year 3 Keldon had a LEBRON WAR of 3.27 compared to 0.99 for Sochan. Vassell was at 1.11 at this point in his career and we gave him more than anyone. So go figure.

[Jordan Jackson]

Yall are hillarious. You'd think Holt's money was yours.

Keldon got 75M/4year, and I seriously doubt Jermey gets anything less that (adjusted for the new cap). Deal starting in low $20M is totally in play.

And they would be stupid to do it. So I expect them to do it.

[Seventyniner]

He's a 33rd percentile player in LEBRON and 40th percentile player in DARKO. So why so eager to pay him in 72nd percentile of all players (which would be the 127th higher paid player)?

First, I guess I'm just an inveterate optimist who thinks Sochan will be a good bit better in 3-4 years than he is now because he's still only 21 and is playing better this season than last. I don't have access to the LEBRON and DARKO stats, how does Sochan look this season compared to last season in those?

Second, I don't think using percentile of player salaries is the best measure when the list includes players on rookie contracts and minimum deals. If each team has 9 players considered rotation-worthy then the 127th would be not much above the median, though it would really be a bit higher because some of those rotation players are on rookie deals or minimums themselves.

[scott]

First, I guess I'm just an inveterate optimist who thinks Sochan will be a good bit better in 3-4 years than he is now because he's still only 21 and is playing better this season than last. I don't have access to the LEBRON and DARKO stats, how does Sochan look this season compared to last season in those?

Here are some free resources for you to look at DARKO and LEBRON stats. You've likely seen me post charts from these sites before.

DARKO: https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/

LEBRON: https://www.bball-index.com/lebron-application/

I also really like CraftedNBA, found at https://craftednba.com/ = their metrics are an composite of popular catch-all metrics, adjusted to the same scale and aggregated. Beyond their PlusMinus metrics, I'm a big fan of their other metrics like ShootingQuality and Portability. It's also an easy place to find other advanced metrics like Nylon Calculus's Versatility Rating, and DRIP. It's worth spending some time on their Glossary Page: https://craftednba.com/glossary


Second, I don't think using percentile of player salaries is the best measure when the list includes players on rookie contracts and minimum deals. If each team has 9 players considered rotation-worthy then the 127th would be not much above the median, though it would really be a bit higher because some of those rotation players are on rookie deals or minimums themselves.

Putting things into percentile terms is the same as just listing it as "the 127th largest" (which you brought up, not me), it just makes it proportional - otherwise it lacks context.

I agree with your premise that the 127th's largest is appropriate for the team's 4th or 5th best player (not is necessarily their 4th or 5th starter)... but that doesn't mean we should pay Sochan that just because he's our 4th or 5th best player (or we expect him to become that). There are other guys who will command that kind of money who are simply better players. I get that you are extremely optimistic on Sochan (which is absolutely fine - and I'm not someone who just wants to give up on him either... I think there is plenty to like about him to want to keep investing in him... for the right price), but I, like a few others, just fundamentally disagree that he's worth the value you're willing to ascribe to him (and likewise, I agree with others that if he were a FA this summer NO ONE would pay him what some folks here are talking about paying him).

With that said, I fully expect the Spurs to overpay him this summer and then I just hope that your optimism on him turns out to be right, because otherwise he'll just be yet another bad contract given out by this FO.

[rankingtear]

MLE is fair for 4 years. He is a development piece at this point cause of the Fox and Castle backcourt. He maxes out at maybe 26 min off the bench when Fox and Castle staggers so you have 3 floor spacers at all times.

[spurraider21]

You're conflating multiple decent points in order to make a terrible one. Congrats?

1) Save for a few cranky boomers, no one gives a shit about the money. I'm sure most of us are happy that all of these young men are getting rich. Holt isn't going to lower prices or send me a rebate if he decides to be a cheap ass.

2) What a lot of us do care about is how overpaying guys restricts our ability to make the team better. Why not just give everyone the max if it's not our money? What a braindead thing to say.

3) "We made a mistake with Keldon's deal, surely we'll double down and do the same with Sochan!" This one is the icing on the illogical cake. With that said, at this point in Keldon's career, he was actually a better player than Sochan. Year 3 Keldon had a LEBRON WAR of 3.27 compared to 0.99 for Sochan. Vassell was at 1.11 at this point in his career and we gave him more than anyone. So go figure.
i dont even think keldon's contract was a mistake. that was a spurs team that has just recently traded away dejounte murray, and months earlier, derrick white. they had no talent locked up at all. a team like that should be extending any young guy who is playing at an NBA level... we are just at a point now where we can and should start getting a little more picky

[John B]

The problem with Sochan is when he has a good game he goes into hero ball mode and stinks for several games to follow.

I rather Sochan aggressive on offense than too much deference like Simmons. The guy can score but would rather take the ball after getting under the basket, unlike Castle who will aggressively attack and get fouled, or has arrays of scoring with contact. Sochan needs to have the same attitude.

[Raven]

You're conflating multiple decent points in order to make a terrible one. Congrats?

1) Save for a few cranky boomers, no one gives a shit about the money. I'm sure most of us are happy that all of these young men are getting rich. Holt isn't going to lower prices or send me a rebate if he decides to be a cheap ass.

2) What a lot of us do care about is how overpaying guys restricts our ability to make the team better. Why not just give everyone the max if it's not our money? What a braindead thing to say.

3) "We made a mistake with Keldon's deal, surely we'll double down and do the same with Sochan!" This one is the icing on the illogical cake. With that said, at this point in Keldon's career, he was actually a better player than Sochan. Year 3 Keldon had a LEBRON WAR of 3.27 compared to 0.99 for Sochan. Vassell was at 1.11 at this point in his career and we gave him more than anyone. So go figure.

what are you talking about, this team has struggled to hit the lower limit for cap for years..

[CGD]

You're conflating multiple decent points in order to make a terrible one. Congrats?

1) Save for a few cranky boomers, no one gives a shit about the money. I'm sure most of us are happy that all of these young men are getting rich. Holt isn't going to lower prices or send me a rebate if he decides to be a cheap ass.

2) What a lot of us do care about is how overpaying guys restricts our ability to make the team better. Why not just give everyone the max if it's not our money? What a braindead thing to say.

3) "We made a mistake with Keldon's deal, surely we'll double down and do the same with Sochan!" This one is the icing on the illogical cake. With that said, at this point in Keldon's career, he was actually a better player than Sochan. Year 3 Keldon had a LEBRON WAR of 3.27 compared to 0.99 for Sochan. Vassell was at 1.11 at this point in his career and we gave him more than anyone. So go figure.

There must be a ton of boomers on this thread then, lol. And, no one is saying give everyone their max, no need to be petulant and dramatic. You should assume a baseline understanding of roster construction here.

Setting aside the merits of the metrics— Keldon likely got his deal BECAUSE of of the year 3 play you reference, nevermind that he was helming a team that would produce Spurs first top 10 selection since Duncan that year. And then again the year we landed Wembs etc.

The bigger point — and your Vassell example is an interesting case in point — is that this team has shown time and again that, whether it’s a small city tax, “culture” premium, staying cool with foreign evaluator, or whatever, it PAYS players it sees as part of its future. They’ve tag Sochan as one of those guys, so don’t hold hope of him getting a Kispert extension number everyone seems to think is “reasonable” around here.

[CGD]

i dont even think keldon's contract was a mistake. that was a spurs team that has just recently traded away dejounte murray, and months earlier, derrick white. they had no talent locked up at all. a team like that should be extending any young guy who is playing at an NBA level... we are just at a point now where we can and should start getting a little more picky

Agreed. Also, I always thought it was designed to be traded, but at a minimum MLE value for a solid bench contributor.

Plus, with salaries going up teams need to diversify their contract amounts. It’s like puzzle pieces. You don’t want to be Milwaukee with very contracts to use for matching purposes and an unhappy star. I sure was glad we had the Tre and Collins contracts when the Fox opportunity presented itself.

[Ice009]

I didn't read most of the previous page as when I got to the 100M for 5 years and 125M for 5 years, I had to stop and say "No fucking way do you pay him that much." He's going to have to learn to shoot first before I even think about that kind of offer.
If he doesn't like it, he can leave. I do like Jeremy a lot as a person, but not for that much as a player. Can't keep tying up cap space on players that aren't worth that amount.

[KobesAchilles]

I’m not gonna quote bc it’s a long response. But all you ever do is ad hominem in your argument. Bringing up Castle has nothing (and I mean nothing to do with Sochan. First, Castles contract isn’t up and he isn’t being considered to have an extension bc he’s a rookie. Second, Castle has made 3 times the amount of threes this season than Sochan and that’s with him shooting like 26% in college. So unlike Sochan, Castle has actually shown an ability to improve as a shooter. In fact Castle has made 30 less threes in not even one full season than Sochan has made in 3 whole fucking years. So if you were to ask me which one I have faith in to improve, it’s Castle bc he has shown the ability to improve. Plus right now Castle is the better player.

Sochan has made zero improvements offensively that make you want him to be a starter. He cuts to the basket but not often enough where it’s a real threat. He stands in the conger at the 3 point line uncontested for half our offensive system. He’s doesn’t set hard screens or seal off his defender to make it easier for our guards to get to the rim. He makes some pretty good passes in the lane and I suppose that is the one area he did improve in but again it’s not often enough where it really makes a difference. And he just has zero idea of what to do for half the game. It’s frustrating to watch.

And again bringing up that Castle wouldn’t start on other teams (and he would start for a few) has nothing to do with Sochan. You see since it’s Sochan whose contract is up and it’s those other teams that would offer him a contract, him not being a starter on those other teams is actually relevant. I’m sorry you didn’t understand that fact. You see other teams CAN offer Sochan a contract. Other teams CANNOT offer Castle a contract. And since these teams CAN offer Sochan a contract, him not being a starter on those teams limits the amount of money they would offer him. For instance, if Sochan could be a starter on other contenders then they could make him a legitimate offer that you’re talking about like the 20-25 million (and again Castle has nothing to do with Sochans contract so please please please don’t bring him up again). But since Sochan wouldn’t start for them the most reasonable contract offer they would give is the full MLE.

Now if you are to say specific teams are going to give him that deal. Maybe the Wizards or the Nets or the Jazz for instance (?) then I could see that possibility. However the prudent thing to do is to wait it out and then match it if we want to match it. But outright offering Sochan a larger contract when only 3 teams in the league could (not have done so but might do so) is stupid business. I’d rather go the Lakers route and let him test the market instead offering him a contract that nobody else is going to offer. The Lakers have Reeves for $12 million a year. Every team could’ve had Reeves but they didn’t make him an offer. 4 years and 60 million and put the onus on Sochan to find a better deal.

[scott]

There must be a ton of boomers on this thread then, lol. And, no one is saying give everyone their max, no need to be petulant and dramatic. You should assume a baseline understanding of roster construction here.

You're the one who brought up "You'd think Holt's money was yours", not me. What's the point of even raising this if we're assuming a baseline understanding of roster construction here? The number of zero's on Jeremy's paycheck is only relevant to me (as it should be anyone serious) insofar as it impacts roster construction.


Setting aside the merits of the metrics— Keldon likely got his deal BECAUSE of of the year 3 play you reference, nevermind that he was helming a team that would produce Spurs first top 10 selection since Duncan that year. And then again the year we landed Wembs etc.

Ignoring for a moment that there are other ways to accomplish this goal, I'm fine if we want to say that Keldon's deal was to get compensated for being a tank commander and land a high pick. But we're not in that same situation anymore, so the same logic no longer applies and therefor Keldon's deal is wholly irrelevant to Sochan's potential extension.


The bigger point — and your Vassell example is an interesting case in point — is that this team has shown time and again that, whether it’s a small city tax, “culture” premium, staying cool with foreign evaluator, or whatever, it PAYS players it sees as part of its future. They’ve tag Sochan as one of those guys, so don’t hold hope of him getting a Kispert extension number everyone seems to think is “reasonable” around here.

I agree that's what this team does... and that's the criticism here. going all the way back to Mills' and Gasol's contracts, this team has made a habit of handing out big deals like they're Halloween candy. Coincidently, we haven't won shit since we've started this habit.

[Ice009]

I agree that's what this team does... and that's the criticism here. going all the way back to Mills' and Gasol's contracts, this team has made a habit of handing out big deals like they're Halloween candy. Coincidently, we haven't won shit since we've started this habit.

Geez man, I had almost forgotten about those. I was so mad when those contracts were announced. I remember I had read the Spurs were going after Iguodala during that off-season or at least had a meeting with him lined up at the start of free agency? I wasn't keen on that either at his age giving him big money (I loved him as a player, but he was getting up there a bit in years then), but man, compared to what Mills and Gasol got, that would have been magic getting Iguodala instead.

I couldn't stand the Mills and Gasol signings and I was saying it back then, I really wonder if those two contracts played a part in Kawhi wanting out. The Spurs signed those guys to ridiculous contracts and also wouldn't pay Jonathon Simmons who I read Kawhi liked. Even if he wasn't a great player, if Kawhi liked him, they should have at least made an effort to resign him. They botched everything every which way during those 2 seasons. It's like, once Tim Duncan retired, they lost all logic.

[exstatic]

Geez man, I had almost forgotten about those. I was so mad when those contracts were announced. I remember I had read the Spurs were going after Iguodala during that off-season or at least had a meeting with him lined up at the start of free agency? I wasn't keen on that either at his age giving him big money (I loved him as a player, but he was getting up there a bit in years then), but man, compared to what Mills and Gasol got, that would have been magic getting Iguodala instead.

I couldn't stand the Mills and Gasol signings and I was saying it back then, I really wonder if those two contracts played a part in Kawhi wanting out. The Spurs signed those guys to ridiculous contracts and also wouldn't pay Jonathon Simmons who I read Kawhi liked. Even if he wasn't a great player, if Kawhi liked him, they should have at least made an effort to resign him. They botched everything every which way during those 2 seasons. It's like, once Tim Duncan retired, they lost all logic.

People overstress about what are really middling contracts. There has never been a case where we weren’t able to easily offload any of them in the normal course of a trade. If they sign Sochan to the dreaded 5/$100M contract, that would be an easily moveable. Keldon’s contract is easily moveable. Devin’s contract is easily moveable. The pearl clutching here is really unnecessary.

[KobesAchilles]

People overstress about what are really middling contracts. There has never been a case where we weren’t able to easily offload any of them in the normal course of a trade. If they sign Sochan to the dreaded 5/$100M contract, that would be an easily moveable. Keldon’s contract is easily moveable. Devin’s contract is easily moveable. The pearl clutching here is really unnecessary.
The problem is that we aren’t going to move these guys. So moot point. Once we do that then I will concede your point but until then… nope

[exstatic]

The problem is that we aren’t going to move these guys. So moot point. Once we do that then I will concede your point but until then… nope

Patty - traded
Collins - traded
Tre Jones - traded

I’m not sure where this no trade bias you’re showing comes from,but the Spurs have a history of even trading guys they like that may not fit the timeline.

Derrick White - traded
Dejounte Murray -traded

If they no longer fit, PATFO will have no issues trading Vassell, Keldon, or anyone else not in the core three of Wemby, Fox, and Castle.

[KobesAchilles]

Patty - traded
Collins - traded
Tre Jones - traded

I’m not sure where this no trade bias you’re showing comes from,but the Spurs have a history of even trading guys they like that may not fit the timeline.

Derrick White - traded
Dejounte Murray -traded

If they no longer fit, PATFO will have no issues trading Vassell, Keldon, or anyone else not in the core three of Wemby, Fox, and Castle.
I mean KJ hasn’t been traded yet. He’s the longest tenured Spur. He isn’t going anywhere for the next couple of years. Vassell would be nice to trade but I doubt we trade him. And then Sochan wouldn’t be traded for at least 3 years. It’s not that we don’t make trades, it’s that we wait too long to trade these guys.

KJ would’ve netted us a FRP. Instead we would be lucky to get a good SRP
Vassell is the same. Although maybe we could fleece the Lakers to give up a FRP for him. He would fit well with Luka and LeBron.
And we wouldn’t try to trade Sochan until well after his trade value has gone down.
My point however is that 26 teams would offer Sochan $14 million MLE at most. 3 in the Wizards, Jazz, and Nets could (not have already done so but might do so) offer him more than this. Maybe they offer him $25 million a year. In which case good luck Sochan and have fun in Utah. But the Spurs shouldn’t just offer him $20 million a year when we don’t know if any other team would offer him that much. And if the Jazz do offer $20 million for Sochan then and only then would we match it and there he gets his market value.

90% of the league has Sochans market at MLE. In my mind I have him the same. It’s on Sochan and his agent to get more money from the other 10% of the league. This is a business and I don’t see any argument to do otherwise

[spurraider21]

Patty - traded
Collins - traded
Tre Jones - traded

I’m not sure where this no trade bias you’re showing comes from,but the Spurs have a history of even trading guys they like that may not fit the timeline.

Derrick White - traded
Dejounte Murray -traded

If they no longer fit, PATFO will have no issues trading Vassell, Keldon, or anyone else not in the core three of Wemby, Fox, and Castle.
Mills was not traded, left as a free agent

[rascal]

Mills was not traded, left as a free agent

Also Collins and Jones was in no brainer package for Fox after Fox made it clear a path to San Antonio was what he wanted. I doubt they trade for him without knowing he wanted to be in San Antonio.

And Murray and White were the start of shedding players for future draft picks as the Spurs were targeting building throught he draft.

[CGD]

^ I mean you’re making exstatics points for him. The contracts are easily movable when needed etc.

I’d add to that, at this stage of the development game that’s it’s helpful to have a diversity of contract sizes on the roster precisely so they can be move if a deal like Fox arises. You don’t want to be top heavy with only minimum deals to help improve your roster via trade.

[exstatic]

^ I mean you’re making exstatics points for him. The contracts are easily movable when needed etc.

I’d add to that, at this stage of the development game that’s it’s helpful to have a diversity of contract sizes on the roster precisely so they can be move if a deal like Fox arises. You don’t want to be top heavy with only minimum deals to help improve your roster via trade.

See: Bucks, Milwaukee.

Also, when the aprons start coming into effect, many small contracts <> One larger one, because you can’t aggregate for a trade.

[Seventyniner]

I mean KJ hasn’t been traded yet. He’s the longest tenured Spur. He isn’t going anywhere for the next couple of years. Vassell would be nice to trade but I doubt we trade him. And then Sochan wouldn’t be traded for at least 3 years. It’s not that we don’t make trades, it’s that we wait too long to trade these guys.

KJ would’ve netted us a FRP. Instead we would be lucky to get a good SRP
Vassell is the same. Although maybe we could fleece the Lakers to give up a FRP for him. He would fit well with Luka and LeBron.
And we wouldn’t try to trade Sochan until well after his trade value has gone down.
My point however is that 26 teams would offer Sochan $14 million MLE at most. 3 in the Wizards, Jazz, and Nets could (not have already done so but might do so) offer him more than this. Maybe they offer him $25 million a year. In which case good luck Sochan and have fun in Utah. But the Spurs shouldn’t just offer him $20 million a year when we don’t know if any other team would offer him that much. And if the Jazz do offer $20 million for Sochan then and only then would we match it and there he gets his market value.

90% of the league has Sochans market at MLE. In my mind I have him the same. It’s on Sochan and his agent to get more money from the other 10% of the league. This is a business and I don’t see any argument to do otherwise

90/5 is the 2026 MLE if you add a 5th year, and that 5th year would be at the smallest % of the cap of any of the years. You and I really aren't that far apart on this.

[Kevin]

People overstress about what are really middling contracts. There has never been a case where we weren’t able to easily offload any of them in the normal course of a trade. If they sign Sochan to the dreaded 5/$100M contract, that would be an easily moveable. Keldon’s contract is easily moveable. Devin’s contract is easily moveable. The pearl clutching here is really unnecessary.

Half right and half wrong about this.

Mid contracts haven't hurt the Spurs because they were a rebuilding team with oodles of cap space and no luxury tax concerns. Once they pay Wemby/Fox/Castle they have to be very careful about handing out big deals to one way role players because of luxury tax concerns.

[spurraider21]

spurs were paying keldon that kind of money so they could reach the floor :lol... it was a skeleton roster. had gotten rid of derozan, white, murray.

[KobesAchilles]

90/5 is the 2026 MLE if you add a 5th year, and that 5th year would be at the smallest % of the cap of any of the years. You and I really aren't that far apart on this.
We are just apart in the years tbh. I don’t have the faith in Sochan that others have on this board. I think this is basically what he’s going to be for his career. And bc of that I believe he won’t ever really have a position he can play consistently and will never really fit in. I ofc could be completely wrong on that but to me he started at an F on offense and he is still an F at offense. And part of me blames the Spurs for that but another part of me is starting to believe in the Spurs a bit more and think that maybe they were just desperate in finding something/anything he could do well offensively :lol

[Chomag]

We are just apart in the years tbh. I don’t have the faith in Sochan that others have on this board. I think this is basically what he’s going to be for his career. And bc of that I believe he won’t ever really have a position he can play consistently and will never really fit in. I ofc could be completely wrong on that but to me he started at an F on offense and he is still an F at offense. And part of me blames the Spurs for that but another part of me is starting to believe in the Spurs a bit more and think that maybe they were just desperate in finding something/anything he could do well offensively :lol

I think I'm on your side about this one. Sochan just makes to many boneheaded decisions on the court to make him stand out enough to be a keeper on a contending team that serous about winning and his skillet is pretty replaceable in this league.

I know he has his fans here but I think it's time to let him go and I think he might even have a decent career on low feeding team.

[Pauleta14]

Did you guys know Jeremy's agency is the same than Morant and Bane?

I could see Memphis making him an offer, he fits their (basic) tactical plays with his slashing/cutting etc

I hope Spurs don't match and let him go, he's just a bad fit for the type of high passing/IQ that Wemby aims and would have a much better career with a more simple type of basketball.

It's fine, there are plenty of other players to develop, no need to retain him just bc of ego/principles

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Did you guys know Jeremy's agency is the same than Morant and Bane?

I could see Memphis making him an offer, he fits their (basic) tactical plays with his slashing/cutting etc

I hope Spurs don't match and let him go, he's just a bad fit for the type of high passing/IQ that Wemby aims and would have a much better career with a more simple type of basketball.

It's fine, there are plenty of other players to develop, no need to retain him just bc of ego/principles

Memphis won’t have any cap space to make an offer in the summer of 2026 once they pay JJJ and Aldama. They’ll likely not even have the full MLE.

[Pauleta14]

Memphis won’t have any cap space to make an offer in the summer of 2026 once they pay JJJ and Aldama. They’ll likely not even have the full MLE.

Yeah maybe, although I think Aldama will attract a lot of teams and probably will be offered a better role elsewhere. Starting with... the Spurs (I think his inside/out game would be perfect with Wemby)

My point was mostly on Sochan's agent link to Memphis with 2 of their main players, knowing how the game of cards work with agents, it could be interesting if you add MEM's play a lot more adapted to Sochan's style of basketball.

I'd love to swap Sochan and Aldama now that I think about it... :lol

No idea if it's even feasible tho

[Jordan Jackson]

The new CBA is crippling. There isn’t going to be “easy” to move bad contracts. Goal should be not to offer them to begin with. Jesus - the Bulls couldn’t give LaVine away. Contract is finally easier to stomach with 2 years left and well the Kangz.

As long as Pop is in charge Sochan is and will remain part of the “core”’. That’s the hill the front office plans on dying on. The hope I think people are trying to express is the Spurs don’t overpay in the process - impacting future moves/additions.

[exstatic]

The new CBA is crippling. There isn’t going to be “easy” to move bad contracts. Goal should be not to offer them to begin with. Jesus - the Bulls couldn’t give LaVine away. Contract is finally easier to stomach with 2 years left and well the Kangz.

As long as Pop is in charge Sochan is and will remain part of the “core”’. That’s the hill the front office plans on dying on. The hope I think people are trying to express is the Spurs don’t overpay in the process - impacting future moves/additions.

A “Bad Contract” is subjective and subject to personal biases. I guarantee you, though, that no $20M contract will be difficult to move, and in fact, may be a key factor in jumping into a trade as a 3rd party. I mean, Bradley Beal, on a $50M no trade contract got moved less than 2 years ago.

I used buy into the Unmoveable Contract trope, but after watching Bradley Beal, John Wall, and Russell Westbrook X 2 all get moved on contracts over $50M that they weren’t earning, I kinda don’t buy into that any more.

[LeBowen]

I used buy into the Unmoveable Contract trope, but after watching Bradley Beal, John Wall, and Russell Westbrook X 2 all get moved on contracts over $50M that they weren’t earning, I kinda don’t buy into that any more.

The thing is that Suns didn't see Beal as a bad contract in that trade, they thought he'll improve the team. Which was obviously completely wrong, but they got him to improve the team.
Wall got traded for Westbrook, Rockets were in full tank mode because Harden already left.

The only unexplainable trade was Lakers getting Westbrook, but that's some more incompetence.
In most cases, there will be a sucker that can be tricked into taking on an awful contract.

I agree that cheaper contracts will always be moveable, it's just about the value that can be had in return.
We could've easily had an average FRP for Keldon a couple of years ago, nowdays I'm not sure he's got even neutral value.
Devin's value also plummeted.

[Patt]

is anyone else suspicious of this jermey back injury? sounds like BS to me, was he even at the game vs the cavs?

[dn0774]

is anyone else suspicious of this jermey back injury? sounds like BS to me, was he even at the game vs the cavs?

Normally I’d say it’s a “shut him down for tanking purposes” move like I thought we did last year with Devin (and others) but then Devin had to get surgery and has just barely rounded into form a bit finally. Hopefully Sochan is alright but we might not know until he is supposed to play for Poland this summer.

[spursistan]

Just look at this guy so desperately looking for every excuse under the sun to justify his underperformance and stagnation as a player. What a loser and gutless mentality. The hair-dying shtick and in-game theatrics never fooled me.

JeffGSpursKENS5 on X: ""I think it was a tough year. The Pop (Popovich) situation, injuries, even travel. It feels like this season, how the three years I've been here this season felt like we weren't home at all. The Paris trip was a week long. Christmas. We were in New York for a week. We were in LA" / X (https://x.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1911631772598620233)

[Jordan Jackson]

Just look at this guy so desperately looking for every excuse under the sun to justify his underperformance and stagnation as a player. What a loser and gutless mentality. The hair-dying shtick and in-game theatrics never fooled me.

JeffGSpursKENS5 on X: ""I think it was a tough year. The Pop (Popovich) situation, injuries, even travel. It feels like this season, how the three years I've been here this season felt like we weren't home at all. The Paris trip was a week long. Christmas. We were in New York for a week. We were in LA" / X (https://x.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1911631772598620233)

Agreed. But it’s working for him. His place on the team is safe barring some lottery luck. From a basketball perspective Wemby and Fox will have to carry him.

We are witnessing the punitive nature of the second apron play out in real time. The Suns are screwed. They were still operating like the old CBA was in play. Never should have traded for that Beal contract. The KD one is bad too - where do you send him to get tax relief?

Clippers dumped George for nothing because they wanted no part of the tax and they got the richest owner in the league.

Boston is next.

Spurs like Sochan. They like to pay their “culture”’guys and that’s ok. Even though all the spurs have at the moment is a culture of losing. Just don’t overpay the guy. More talent needs to be added to the roster they shouldn’t be tying up money on middling players.

[Knoxxx]

Sochan has played is way into an affordable contract, given his frequent injuries and inconsistency. As a situational player, he still has value for us.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Sochan has played is way into an affordable contract, given his frequent injuries and inconsistency. As a situational player, he still has value for us.

Yes. His performance may save us money. Lock him for 4 years $60 million. He is still a good perimeter defender. Can still develop into an adequate 3-point shooter.

[rascal]

I was told year three players have a big jump in production. I didn't see any improvement from Sochan. His stats are the same across three years now.

[scott]

Just let him hit RFA. I can see no mutually agreeable solution to an extension this summer.

With that said, I expect the Spurs to significantly overpay him this summer. The sniffers will tell us it's actually a good thing because then he can be used as trade ballast, but his trade value will just continue to diminish just like it has for every other player we've overpaid.

[KobesAchilles]

Dude made 28 threes for the entire season. And we had posters on here clamoring about how hard he worked on his shot during the offseason. Sochan will never be a 3 point threat. If we do anything over 4 years $60 million it is a horrible contract.

i seriously doubt he will be on the team in 3 years anyways.

[Knoxxx]

Sochan had a TS% of almost .600 you buffoons!

[CorrectCrusader]

Another year another 365 days of Sochan being extremely underwhelming and not improving

[John B]

If we have Queen/Wemby in the middle, I think Sochan can spot 3 like Bowen did (while I rather have a true knock down shooter like Champ. Spurs need more shooters to surround Queen like Fleming when Wemby sits. Or run a transition basketball as originally designed, Sochan to rim-run and start the transition offense, but his passing through traffic is left to be desired.

[Knoxxx]

Sochan regressed as the season went on and the injuries didn’t help but if you actually check his stats it was his most efficient year yet on offense. No, it didn’t pass the eye test but 11.4 6.5 on .589 TS# with positive assist/TO in 25 MPG is passable for a defensive specialist.

[spurraider21]

ah so wemby starting with 4 below average shooters in Queen, Sochan, Castle, and Fox

i'll just pre-order the laker jersey tbh

[Knoxxx]

I didn’t notice who said they wanted Sochan starting?

[Jordan Jackson]

Sochan had a TS% of almost .600 you buffoons!

https://x.com/the_bball_index/status/1911820997579223438?s=46&t=UNDFIigYEBZjxDThXVpR4w

I don’t think opposing teams care what he does though. They are happy when he’s on the court trying to score.

[John B]

ah so wemby starting with 4 below average shooters in Queen, Sochan, Castle, and Fox

i'll just pre-order the laker jersey tbh

I prefer knockdown shooters around Wemby and Queen (if ever they drafted him). Queen is such a beast in the middle and should command double-teams, creating open shots around.

[Obstructed_View]

Sochan regressed as the season went on and the injuries didn’t help but if you actually check his stats it was his most efficient year yet on offense. No, it didn’t pass the eye test but 11.4 6.5 on .589 TS# with positive assist/TO in 25 MPG is passable for a defensive specialist.

Sochan has loads of talent which he has been coasting on his entire career. He is still milking the one handed free throw thing to trick the retards into thinking he's actually putting in work. The people who put the numbers on his contract know how hard he's actually working in the gym.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

I prefer knockdown shooters around Wemby and Queen (if ever they drafted him). Queen is such a beast in the middle and should command double-teams, creating open shots around.

The problem is Fox and castle are not good 3 shooters. So, starting Queen doesn't work for Spurs. Would have to Bench Castle and reinvent the offensive Scheme. Have to wait another year for guys to adapt.

PLus, Queen likely won't be available at 8. Some other teams will pick him as their franchise player. I understand he is a good player. But It doesn't mean he won't mess up Spur's game.

[John B]

The problem is Fox and castle are not good 3 shooters. So, starting Queen doesn't work for Spurs. Would have to Bench Castle and reinvent the offensive Scheme. Have to wait another year for guys to adapt.

PLus, Queen likely won't be available at 8. Some other teams will pick him as their franchise player. I understand he is a good player. But It doesn't mean he won't mess up Spur's game.

Spurs might get lucky to have a choice between Queen and Sorber at 8th!

[SpurSpike]

I was told year three players have a big jump in production. I didn't see any improvement from Sochan. His stats are the same across three years now.

He was playing really well to start the season when he was playing primarily PF. He then had his finger injury around December and never really found his groove after that. There may be a reason though, has been playing out of position at center for much of the second half of this season because we traded our only healthy backup big man.

[John B]

He was playing really well to start the season when he was playing primarily PF. He then had his finger injury around December and never really found his groove after that. There may be a reason though, has been playing out of position at center for much of the second half of this season because we traded our only healthy backup big man.

I don’t know what they’re trying to do with Sochan. Make him a big PG ala Ben Simmons, or a Draymond/Rodman defensive PF. In my opinion his defense is overrated. He’s pesky but not really a lockdown defender. He’s successfully annoyed good players to drop career highs on the Spurs. He’s a good cutter, but maybe because teams leave him because he’s reluctant to shoot. If Spurs draft Fleming, it’s a good indicator they’re moving away from Sochan.

I liked Sochan when Spurs drafted him, but his reluctance to shoot. He’ll push the ball down just to stop at the key to pass, cannot pass through traffic without turning it over. Bowen wasn’t a baller, but he knew his assignment. If he could defend and shoot like Bowen, then yeah.

[BacktoBasics]

Queen is not a franchise player anymore than Randle is.

[spurraider21]

1911820997579223438

[scott]

1911820997579223438

Can't wait to give this guy 4/100.

[RC_Drunkford]

His contract should have a lot of money on 3-point shooting incentives

[quentin_compson]

His contract should have a lot of money ...

No. :p:

[LeBowen]

I still feel like noone would rate him if not for his Rodman cosplay, if he was just another generic looking, non-shooting wing.

People can cope all they want, but numbers don't lie:
https://i.imgur.com/YWhtCPO.png

Yeah, he got the short end of the stick because of all the role changes, but those happened only because he's not effective enough in his primary role.
As I said before, he's suffering from Ben Simmons syndrome. I'm not referring to the lack of work ethic or bad mentality, but the fact that even after three seasons, he's still almost the same player he was when he entered the league.

We have our franchise player, we have another all-star in his peak and we have a rookie with very high ceiling. Those are the three players we're building around.
Everyone else needs to have a complementary skillset that helps those three. We don't want to adjust to role players that don't fit our stars.
Jeremy isn't a nephew-like point of attack defender or a physical specimen so his lack of offensive game should be tolerated.

He seems to be a good guy, but he's shown nothing to warrant more than around 60/4 extension offer. Even that's generous, I'm not sure he's worth more than 10 million a year.
If he feels like that's a lowball, he's can prove his worth next season and earn himself a bigger offer.

We already somewhat burned ourselves with that Devin contract, overpaying another subpar to average player based on their potential would be dumb with the new CBA rules. Especially someone who's so limited on offense.
I don't think there's even any room for discussion about this other than Spurs getting a new coach who really rates Jeremy and can get the most out of him without taking away from our core players.

[Seventyniner]

People can cope all they want, but numbers don't lie:https://i.imgur.com/YWhtCPO.png

Yeah, he got the short end of the stick because of all the role changes, but those happened only because he's not effective enough in his primary role.
As I said before, he's suffering from Ben Simmons syndrome. I'm not referring to the lack of work ethic or bad mentality, but the fact that even after three seasons, he's still almost the same player he was when he entered the league.

You're only looking at his raw counting stats, which don't account for the fact that he played 4.3 fewer MPG this season. His advanced stats showed a big jump in year 3. Particularly TS% and TRB%, two of the most important stats for his role.

https://i.ibb.co/39S2hK1k/sochan2.jpg

DARKO also shows a huge improvement in year 3.

https://i.ibb.co/4ZP4M8yM/sochan.jpg

[Spursfanfromafar]

You're only looking at his raw counting stats, which don't account for the fact that he played 4.3 fewer MPG this season. His advanced stats showed a big jump in year 3. Particularly TS% and TRB%, two of the most important stats for his role.

https://i.ibb.co/39S2hK1k/sochan2.jpg

DARKO also shows a huge improvement in year 3.

https://i.ibb.co/4ZP4M8yM/sochan.jpg

Thanks. EPM also rates his defensive improvement highly (unlike LEBRON). His D-EPM was +1.2 (88%ile). And his overall EPM this season was 0.4 (71st percentile). He was showcasing even better numbers before Wemby got injured and Spurs' frontcourt became shorthanded making him play back-up C and the C in many lineups, leading to a slight dip in his D-EPM.

Sochan showed clear steps of progression this season. While that doesn't mean that he deserves a big contract, the Spurs won't be off the mark by paying him a decent one.

[LeBowen]

You're only looking at his raw counting stats, which don't account for the fact that he played 4.3 fewer MPG this season. His advanced stats showed a big jump in year 3. Particularly TS% and TRB%, two of the most important stats for his role.

Year 1 and 3 mpg is identical and the stats are as close as it gets.
You can talk about TS%, but that's just on him getting more easy looks due to the team finally an actual point guard.

https://3stepsbasket.com/player/jeremy-sochan/shooting
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shots-dash
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1631110/shooting

His 2pt FG% based on the number of dribbles says everything.
0 dribbles: 69%
1 dribble: 53%
2 dribbles: 42%
3 dribbles: 41%

He's at 68% on 2pt FG if he attempts a shot within 2 seconds of receiving the ball, but it goes down to 40% if it takes him more than 2 seconds.
He's 3/21 on 2pt FG outside the paint.
Shooting splits based on shot distance say enough, 67% inside 5ft, but 75% of those are assisted, drops to 20-35% as soon as he's not around the restricted area.

You can't be a 6'9 forward who's shooting less than 50% in the paint unless it's an easy dunk/layup and not be an offensive liability.
I'll give you that improved his rebounding, but what's the worth an extra offensive rebound or two if he makes it so much easier for defenses to scheme against his team whenever he's on the floor?

Another thing he's got going for him is that he was just one of the three players on the roster with traditional 6'7-6'10 wing size. And he didn't really take advantage of it.
Didn't even improve the most basic stuff like his FTs. Still at around 70%.

This post looks like I'm shitting on him, but advanced stats mean nothing if they went up just because he was reduced to easy baskets on offense.
I just don't see why would a non-shooting forward who's not elite in any other aspect of the game get more than 10 to 12 million a year with current CBA rules.
He's the type of player contenders recycle yearly and get for minimum deals.

[Seventyniner]

You can't be a 6'9 forward who's shooting less than 50% in the paint unless it's an easy dunk/layup and not be an offensive liability.
I'll give you that improved his rebounding, but what's the worth an extra offensive rebound or two if he makes it so much easier for defenses to scheme against his team whenever he's on the floor?

Another thing he's got going for him is that he was just one of the three players on the roster with traditional 6'7-6'10 wing size. And he didn't really take advantage of it.
Didn't even improve the most basic stuff like his FTs. Still at around 70%.

This post looks like I'm shitting on him, but advanced stats mean nothing if they went up just because he was reduced to easy baskets on offense.
I just don't see why would a non-shooting forward who's not elite in any other aspect of the game get more than 10 to 12 million a year with current CBA rules.
He's the type of player contenders recycle yearly and get for minimum deals.

Bkref says Sochan shot 70.7% at the rim this season, up from 66.5% and 65.9% in his first two years. I don't know where you're getting "shooting less than 50% in the paint" from. Even averaging the 0-3 and 3-10 percentages, weighted for the % of shots he takes from each distance, gives 61.2%.

https://i.ibb.co/mrxgsJN0/sochan3.jpg

Are you really giving him zero credit for drastically improving his shot diet? It's not all him but it also isn't all not him. If anything it shows that he can credibly fill the rim-roller/dunker role, albeit only that one. His shot diet should be even more unbalanced towards shots at the rim going forward when he gets to play real minutes with Wemby and Fox.

As for the salary, you said $10-12M and then minimum. Which is it? I argue for something like the MLE because of the big difference between Sochan and role players on contenders: he will only be 22 next season. Players at that age tend to make bigger improvements than at other ages, and he already showed a jump this season.

[Leetonidas]

I like Sochan but let's call a spade a spade. He can't shoot, he won't shoot, he frequently drives to the lane and will be two feet from the basket with zero intention of trying to score. He rebounds decently and can score at the basket if he's completely wide open (not saying much). He's touted as a defensive player but his defense isnt that great to begin with. And his biggest problem is he just does not fit next to Victor at all.

I think he has a role in the NBA as an energy bench guy but not as a main rotational piece. Spurs would be morons to offer him a 7 figure contract. Hell they would be morons to not let him become a RFA and test the market. Sadly we all know SA is going to sign him to a 4/100 extension :lol

[LeBowen]

Bkref says Sochan shot 70.7% at the rim this season, up from 66.5% and 65.9% in his first two years. I don't know where you're getting "shooting less than 50% in the paint" from. Even averaging the 0-3 and 3-10 percentages, weighted for the % of shots he takes from each distance, gives 61.2%.

I wrote that he's shooting less than 50% unless it's an easy dunk/layup, check out the links I posted, it's pretty obvious those are the only shots he converts reliably.


Are you really giving him zero credit for drastically improving his shot diet? It's not all him but it also isn't all not him. If anything it shows that he can credibly fill the rim-roller/dunker role, albeit only that one. His shot diet should be even more unbalanced towards shots at the rim going forward when he gets to play real minutes with Wemby and Fox.

As I said, how much of it is an improvement because of the changes in the system?
I'm not against a roller/dunker, but if we're to have such PF, it has to be someone physically dominant who literally puts defenders in the basket whenever there's a mismatch. Jeremy doesn't do that.

And it's not even about the fit with Wemby, but about the fit with Fox/Castle. It looks like we're set for lineups with two guards that prefer attacking the rim, with neither being a great shooter, we can't make their life more difficult with Jeremy in the lineup.


As for the salary, you said $10-12M and then minimum. Which is it? I argue for something like the MLE because of the big difference between Sochan and role players on contenders: he will only be 22 next season. Players at that age tend to make bigger improvements than at other ages, and he already showed a jump this season.

Was my post not clear or something? I'd give him 10 to 12 because he's still a young player developed in house, but that's not the going rate for non-shooting wings who aren't elite athletes.

He's had three seasons in an enviroment that had zero winning expectations, we can't afford to spend more than those ~10 million on a forward who hasn't improved his offensive game in a tanking environment while we're trying to compete.
Idk about you, but I got triggered so many times this season when he started dribbling the ball into the paint only to either attempt the most random shot you'll see or just straight up turn it over. It's like he has no processing power and doesn't think about how will things play out before he does something.

[scott]

Are you really giving him zero credit for drastically improving his shot diet? It's not all him but it also isn't all not him. If anything it shows that he can credibly fill the rim-roller/dunker role, albeit only that one. His shot diet should be even more unbalanced towards shots at the rim going forward when he gets to play real minutes with Wemby and Fox.

I think this is a key point here, but maybe not in the way you are implying? To me, most (if not all) of his improvement this season came from an improved shot diet and a more limited role and like you said here are signals that his offensive role should be narrowly tailored to those things. Indeed, he kind of looks broken when he tries to go venture outside of that rim-roller/dunker role. We saw a lot of him driving this season only to get into the paint and have an "oh shit what have I done" moment where he spins around and desperately seeks a pass back out to reset. These kind of actions serve no positive purpose for our offense and just result in having to reset with a dwindling shot clock and eventually a suboptimal shot.

So... at the end of the day, we have an effective rim-roller/dunker who can do very little else offensively but is generally a positive defensive contributor. The question is... what is that worth? How many minutes should that guy play? IMO, the 25 mpg he got this year seems about right, if not possibly a little high. For me, I'm only willing to devote around 4/60 to that, and even then I'm not sure if it's really if I want to pay that.

On the flip side, as you point out he is young and his development curve is pointing in the right direction... so there is definitely some upside yet to be unlocked. That's the key factor that does make me lean towards "yeah, let's take a gamble on 4/60". But if he was 27, instead of 22, you'd probably only give this guy $5MM/yr as a defensive specialist. So, you're really betting on the idea of him expanding his game (not just becoming more efficient at the handful of things he already does well).

Just my $0.02

[Guru of Nothing]

I'm a Jeremy fan and if it were my decision I'd probably extend an offer in the 4/60 range - this assumes PATFO has a clear vision for this role. Anything above that seems detrimental.

Is there anybody that would offer more, both willing and able? I kind of want to find out who this would even be.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Agree and Scott and LeBowen above. Sochan still has value and upside if the new contract is $60/4 maximum.

[RC_Drunkford]

50/4 with 2.5 million in 3-point in incentives per year so he‘s basically signed for 4/40 unless he develops a shot on decent volume

[Kevin]

If the Spurs end up picking in the 8-10 range lets trade the pick and KJ for Cam Johnson and not pay Sochan.

Trading away KJ and not paying Sochan are both addition by subtraction moves. Cam Johnson is a perfect off ball fourth option with very good shooting splits 45/39/85.

[The Truth #6]

I like Sochan but he was drafted as a blank slate with potential to do a lot of things. It's weird. It's like he has tools but not a lot of specific skills. His first year showed a lot of relative promise. Then he was thrust into a disastrous impossible situation as a point guard. JFC. How fucking stupid that was. He went from point guard to part time center. I hope all this chaos is sculpting him into something special, but that hope is diminishing.

Its a bummer, but someone can like Fleming, who is likely a dumb basketball player, theoretically is more useful if he can simply shoot and dunk successfully.

[SpursBills]

I've gradually gotten lower and lower on Sochan throughout the season as the injuries have piled up, he's continued to exhibit the exact same skills as last year. His ceiling went from poor man's Scottie Barnes, to skinnier Aaron Gordon, to I'm not sure what I'm hoping for him now.

There are a few definitive things we can say about him right now:

1. He does not possess the handle or vision to be a secondary initiator, nor will he get the developmental reps to do so moving forward most likely. I can't think of any big creators like Barnes, Avdija, etc who developed that skill after age 22. Skill wise, those guys were way ahead of him at the same age. If anyone can come up with some examples, please let me know and I'll take another hit of hopium

2. He does not possess the strength and/or athleticism to be a versatile true 4 like Gordon. Nothing he can do about that, that's just genetics

3. I used to think that being both big and agile enough to defend the perimeter full time was extremely rare and valuable. But we have teams showing us that you can find a second rounder with a similar skillset and not lose too much as long as you're next to a high level big defender. Cleveland is the best example of this. Do I really want to pay Sochan 20 million a year when Dean Wade can shoot the 3 and gets paid 1/3 of that? Can I get 80% of what Sochan brings if I just draft Thomas Haugh in the second round?

4. His advanced numbers are trending up. But as a counterpoint:

https://i.postimg.cc/mDZXPZc2/JS-vs-JV.png

What exactly is Sochan definitely better at than age 22 Vando? Both are very agile and guard the perimeter well, both rebound well for their size, neither can really shoot. If age 24 Vando is getting 4/48 just 2 years ago, 4/60 for age 22 Sochan seems reasonable here.

Take this guy to restricted FA if he doesn't accept 4/60, at the very least you get another year to see whether he's developed more skills. And hey, if next year he comes back a 15/7 guy with high level defense, improved handles, and 2.5 3PM/100, I'm happy to match a 5/125 offer sheet or extend him for that much and treat the lost savings as the cost of doing business.

[KobesAchilles]

Yeah I think a lot of people just posted two new advanced stats without really knowing what they mean. Sochans advanced stats say he can dunk the ball and he is a decent rebounder. He is a plus defender but not the all world defender that some posters here believe he is.

His high EFG means nothing when all he shoots is dunks at the rim and basically refuses to shoot any other shot. He has shown no improvement as a shooter at all. Absolutely none. If anything, he has regressed as a shooter. His mentality is weak and not one I want on our team. There’s zero point working on your shot if you don’t have any confidence in it. Let another team overpay for this guy. He is currently the 8th man on our roster and paying an 8th guy starting caliber money is a bad contract. Imagine paying $25 million a year for a guy who is going to play 25 minutes a game.

We have our core. Sochan has proven he isn’t a part of it. He’s a bench player. Before posters post nonsense, I want them to actually look at other teams bench players and see what they are paying those players before spouting off this nonsense of a contract of $100 million.
Never change Spurstalk :lol

[poopbox]

Bkref says Sochan shot 70.7% at the rim this season, up from 66.5% and 65.9% in his first two years. I don't know where you're getting "shooting less than 50% in the paint" from. Even averaging the 0-3 and 3-10 percentages, weighted for the % of shots he takes from each distance, gives 61.2%.

https://i.ibb.co/mrxgsJN0/sochan3.jpg

Are you really giving him zero credit for drastically improving his shot diet? It's not all him but it also isn't all not him. If anything it shows that he can credibly fill the rim-roller/dunker role, albeit only that one. His shot diet should be even more unbalanced towards shots at the rim going forward when he gets to play real minutes with Wemby and Fox.

As for the salary, you said $10-12M and then minimum. Which is it? I argue for something like the MLE because of the big difference between Sochan and role players on contenders: he will only be 22 next season. Players at that age tend to make bigger improvements than at other ages, and he already showed a jump this season.

One, this isn't an important role in modern basketball unless its coming from a legit bigger more athletic old school big with almost elite athleticism (Jarret Allen), and two, when teams really crank up the defense all of Sochan's shooting numbers go out the window because he becomes completely invisible. It's the main reason I want him gone, cause soon as teams start playing serious defense and high iq basktball, he starts scoring 0 points getting 0 rebounds and turning the ball over no matter what position he is playing on the court.

I'd bet alot of money in alot of bank accounts that the overwhelming majority of his shooting percentages are "nobody is guarding me" shots, much like GP2 on the Warriors shooting 80% at the rim cause 90% of his shots are slip screen layups where the other team has 4 players guarding Steph.

[rankingtear]

I don't think he has the work ethic of our past developmental projects. Going into his third year there is really no noise of his improvement in the off season when it should be the loudest while lesser prospects like Wesley and Branham are being praised for their summer work. Some rumor monger even said he fucked around all summer. But they can't waste any asset this early on the rebuild as long as the money makes sense they should sign him to an extension, he is probably closer to what Deni got on his. At this point I would just ask him to only do what he is good at like Brandon Clarke, rim runner, grab and go transition playmaker and POA defender off the bench.

[ambchang]

Big sochan fan here but even if balk at anything more than $15 a year. I still like his one on one defence, I like his rim rolling but the problem is that he is now visibly scare to shoot. He was previously beaming with confidence as a player, getting under opponents skin, but he is very much pulled back now because he is playing scared almost. Unless it’s the coaching staff telling him not to shoot and only focus on certain aspects on offence first, perfect those then move onto something else, this is a huge red flag.

He also used to be a better passer as well, now he’s unsure. He doesn’t seem to know what to do as he seems to be afraid to make mistakes. Partly I still think it’s because of the total lack of structure, as in nobody knows what’s going on and who should go where. So sochan spends all the time trying to figure out what’s going on and kept missing the obvious. But on the other hand after months of this chaos, I’d hoped he would’ve picked something up by now.

I’m not so much worried about his lack of shooting efficiency, as much as his reluctance to shoot. I’d say the lack of clarity of his role and forcing him to do things he can’t do absolutely destroyed his progress.

[Sugus]

As another Sochan fan - this season has clarified some very important things that act as "Master Denominators" and clearly define Sochan's place on the team moving forward.

The acquisition of Fox, who can shoot the 3 but is certainly not reliant on it, and emergence of Castle, who also isn't a prolific 3pt shooter, has created an outright necessity for our starting SF and PF to be, at the least, willing and capable shooters. Wemby being a stretch-5 makes it so he could work with Sochan, as we saw on the early season, but having 3 practically-non-shooters on the starting lineup is a disaster recipe in 2025 and puts enormous pressure on Wemby to space the floor, which negates so many of his talents.

Thus we can conclude that Sochan's role, so long as both his shooting ability, and shooting willingness, doesn't improve drastically, must be as a bench player, at least on the Spurs. Other teams with different construction and needs may have a bigger role for him, but not these Spurs, and the above configuration seems to be here to stay. I'd earlier move Sochan than any of the 3 players, for sure.

Therefore we (and hopefully/probably the Spurs FO realizes this as well) simply have to look at his upcoming contract extension through that lens. I'm not a contracts guy and have no idea what your average bench PF is getting nowadays - particularly in this post-CBA reality - but that is the measuring stick for sure.

[LeBowen]

I'm not a contracts guy and have no idea what your average bench PF is getting nowadays - particularly in this post-CBA reality - but that is the measuring stick for sure.

Since we're obviously aiming to be a contender, let's see the SF/PF role player situation on contending rosters. When I say contending, I refer to teams that were build to compete, even if they failed.
Players on rookie contracts not included and players making more than $25M not included. Shooting percentages from this season.

Dort: ~$17M a year for 2 more seasons, elite defender and 41% 3pt shooter.
Kenrich Williams: ~$7M for 2 more seasons, just 16mpg, 38% 3pt.

Hachimura: ~$18M for 2 more seasons, 40% 3pt shooter this season.
DFS: ~$15M the next season, good defender and 36% 3pt.

Derrick Jones Jr: ~$10M for 2 more seasons, 36% 3pt.
Batum: ~$5M next season, veteran, 43% 3pt.

McDaniels: near-identical extension to Devin's, overpaid even though he's an elite defender.
Naz Reid: will surely get 25 to 30 a year in the summer.

Brandon Clarke: ~$12M for the next 3 seasons, can't shoot, not worth the money.

Caleb Martin: ~$9M for the next 4 seasons, didn't play for Dallas, career average 35% 3pt.
Naji Marshall: ~$9M for the next 3 seasons, poor shooter.
PJ Washington: ~$14M next season, 38% 3pt shooter and the team's enforcer, would be great for us.

O'Neale: ~$10M for the next 3 seasons, 40% 3pt.

Oubre: ~$8M next season, 29% 3pt.

SlowMo: ~$9M for the next two seasons, non-shooter.
Highsmisth: ~$5M the next season. 38% 3pt.

Portis: ~$13M the next season, 36% 3pt.

Toppin: ~$15M for the next 3 seasons, 36% 3pt shooter.

Josh Hart: ~$20M for the next 3 seasons, 33% 3pt shooter.

Hauser: ~$12M for the next 3 seasons, 41% 3pt shooter.

Hunter: ~$23M for the next 2 seasons, 43% 3pt shooter.
Strus: ~$15M for the next 2 seasons, 38% 3pt shooter.
Okoro: ~$11M for the next 2 seasons, 37% 3pt shooter.



I know that just listing 3pt percentages without volume is superficial and obviously a lot of these players aren't great defenders, but what was the point I was trying to make?
That even though there are quite a few bad defenders in there, there are just a few non-shooters around the league at SF/PF positions playing limited roles for contenders.
Unless you're a high end starter even without a jumpshot, you're not getting on a contending roster.
The only exceptions are players like SlowMo who are great playmakers for their size (which Jeremy isn't), or athletic freaks who can play as backup bigs even though they're undersized (which Jeremy can't).
There are some more wings on minimum deals, but that's just circumstantial.

Also, have in mind that all of these contracts were signed before the new CBA, a lot of them wouldn't have been so generous with current rules.

TL;DR
Jeremy is absolutely not worth more than ~$10M a year with his current skillset and the lack of improvement in his offensive game means that offering him more based on his potential would be idiotic because it seems that he reached his ceiling early.