Spurs Select F Jeremy Sochan with the 9th Pick in the 2022 NBA Draft

[ace3g]

https://x.com/AirlessJordan/status/1932662743158362284

[John B]

https://x.com/AirlessJordan/status/1932662743158362284

I don’t know if his defense is overrated. I would love to think that Sochan would be who Draymond to the Dubs. Because with today’s NBA, he could be very useful IF he’s disruptive, can shoot the 3 consistently on top of taking it to rim. He’s actually what today’s NBA is looking for if he can consistently do all those 3.

[ambchang]

Sochan is a great one on one wing defender but he has a long way to go to be a team defender like draymond. One thing is his leadership on defense, another is his recognition of opponent sets. It will take a while and he could be that guy but there’s a reason not many Draymonds exist.

[scottspurs]

Sochan is valuable but not untouchable. I want him to succeed with the Spurs but will root for him even if it’s not in San Antonio. Unless he ends up on the Lakers. Then he can rot. I think this is a make or break season for him as far as his shot is concerned. He will get another contract in the NBA regardless but how well he shoots next year will determine his future. For me I think it’s a confidence issue more than anything else. Let that MF fly Sochan

[SpursBills]

I don’t know if his defense is overrated. I would love to think that Sochan would be who Draymond to the Dubs. Because with today’s NBA, he could be very useful IF he’s disruptive, can shoot the 3 consistently on top of taking it to rim. He’s actually what today’s NBA is looking for if he can consistently do all those 3.

Realistically probably less Draymond, more big Lu Dort if he learns to shoot

[RC_Drunkford]

I'd like to give him another year to see if his shot is finally coming around. I hope they didn't include him in the KD deal, because salary wise there is no reason to do it.

[Chomag]

Sochan dosnt have the basketball IQ to be anything close to a Draymond

[Ni-G]

Hell no. I don't want him there. I'd be surprised FO shipping him out now unless Suns are insisting particularly on JS. I think DV and probably HB (plus fillers and 14th) who's scoring and spacing role would be taken over and upgraded by KD.

[picnroll]

Need Sochan against KC.

[mo7888]

I'd like to give him another year to see if his shot is finally coming around. I hope they didn't include him in the KD deal, because salary wise there is no reason to do it.

I'd prefer to keep him, but if he's in the deal I'd think his shot coming around is fake news. I'd trust the fo on this..

[RC_Drunkford]

I'd prefer to keep him, but if he's in the deal I'd think his shot coming around is fake news. I'd trust the fo on this..

I mean even Jakob Poeltl can shoot 3s in an empty gym. Being able to shoot and shooting in an NBA game are 2 completely different animals. I'm pretty sure the Spurs know where he's at development wise.

[Pauleta14]

Fascinating to watch the impact of even a little bit of time has on people's memory... :lol

I guess the Sixers fans reacted the same way with Simmons every summer ("he's still young, look at his passing game, if he just works on this and that blabla...")

Sochan's career will always be about what he gives and takes, he's too small to play 4 and not skilled enough to play 3, he's not even a physical threat on defense and for all the occasional good 1v1 performances, he keeps missing rotations and has poor court awareness on both ends of the court.

He's issue isn't just the shooting.

Thinking after THREE SEASONS that he could become a different player/man that he's shown up until now is insane

[ace3g]

https://x.com/nateryansports/status/1932849531357446251

[poopbox]

https://x.com/nateryansports/status/1932849531357446251

Hopefully the team interacts with him to say he's been traded to Phoenix for KD

[rascal]

https://x.com/nateryansports/status/1932849531357446251

He's worried he might be on the trade block.

[ace3g]

Sochan at ASU; Jeff Ayres cameo....

https://x.com/spursbeliever/status/1934345844565627387

https://x.com/JSochanMuse/status/1934397498333725016

[Mr. Body]

He's done away with that weird hitch thing he had, but he still has a fling to his shot.

[exstatic]

He's done away with that weird hitch thing he had, but he still has a fling to his shot.
So does Halliburton, and he seems to do OK.

[CGD]

Sochan at ASU; Jeff Ayres cameo....

https://x.com/spursbeliever/status/1934345844565627387

https://x.com/JSochanMuse/status/1934397498333725016

So much better. Is it me, or do his legs do a weird kick on the jump?

[thOOdee]

Yuh, still uses his left hand a bit in his follow through. But much better compared to previously.

[RC_Drunkford]

The good thing is he’s on a 90 days/2 workouts per day schedule. That type of stretch really improved a lot of players shooting. Let’s hope it translates to games.

[Mnky]

People really saying things like they're willing to give him a year... drafting Tim, Manu, and Tony was the best and worst thing to happen to this fan base.


Sochan is younger than the Thompson twins and Brandon Miller.

He's a kid. Bout 5-8 years from being his best if he just improved league average.

Already one of the best wing defenders in the league and has a reputation for making tough nights on the stars of the league.

Everyone wants a Wemby or LeBron in positions 1-5. Reality gonna hit some of the fans sooner or later.

Not untouchable but he's definitely a great piece to have so young and more importantly WILLING to do whatever the team tells him to do role wise.

Don't think people respect how great of an attitude he has in regards to being adaptable to the teams needs.

[cutewizard]

If he develops a three pointer, his value would increase......but we doubt that......

[cutewizard]

We need a new Bowennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

[RC_Drunkford]

People really saying things like they're willing to give him a year... drafting Tim, Manu, and Tony was the best and worst thing to happen to this fan base.


Sochan is younger than the Thompson twins and Brandon Miller.

He's a kid. Bout 5-8 years from being his best if he just improved league average.

Already one of the best wing defenders in the league and has a reputation for making tough nights on the stars of the league.

Everyone wants a Wemby or LeBron in positions 1-5. Reality gonna hit some of the fans sooner or later.

Not untouchable but he's definitely a great piece to have so young and more importantly WILLING to do whatever the team tells him to do role wise.

Don't think people respect how great of an attitude he has in regards to being adaptable to the teams needs.

the thing with Sochan is that his extension should be quite low. If the Spurs can sign him indeed for something around 35/3 that would be good value if he all of a sudden comes into the season shooting 3s.

[tbdog]

The good thing is he’s on a 90 days/2 workouts per day schedule. That type of stretch really improved a lot of players shooting. Let’s hope it translates to games.

I wonder how much the players pay for it.

I do find it strange that the players pay the money and not the team organising trainers to do the workouts.

[tbdog]

the thing with Sochan is that his extension should be quite low. If the Spurs can sign him indeed for something around 35/3 that would be good value if he all of a sudden comes into the season shooting 3s.

Starters get 15 plus and it's going up
Rotational players get around 8 plus.

You think Sochan is kinda in the middle of that?

[Extra Stout]

If He Develops A Shot should be an acronym (IHDAS).

[exstatic]

Sochan would have to be an idiot to sign for < $12M/yr. If that’s the offer, he’ll likely just roll into RFA next summer, just bet on himself and other teams interest. There will be teams with cap room next year, and most of them will strike out with the top FAs. There will be more teams with the MLE to use. He’ll get better than 11 and change.

[KobesAchilles]

Starters get 15 plus and it's going up
Rotational players get around 8 plus.

You think Sochan is kinda in the middle of that?
He’s not a starter on our team…
But really he’s going to get $15 million a year just based on potential alone and I’m ok with that. The problem I have is I just don’t see a role for him on this team. People keep saying how amazing his defense is and that’s fine and everything but it isn’t THAT amazing where we can start him bc of it. You can’t even have him close out games either bc he’s a bad free throw shooter and bad three point shooter as well. So really what are the contracts of high energy bench players. They’re about what you give Steven Adams. $13-15 million a year

[Extra Stout]

Alternatively, IHDA3PS.

[RC_Drunkford]

Starters get 15 plus and it's going up
Rotational players get around 8 plus.

You think Sochan is kinda in the middle of that?

projected salary was 33/3. Spurs will probably overpay with shooting incentives included. All I'm saying if he indeed takes that leap, lock him into a good contracts. Role players on cheap contracts are key when it comes to building a contender.

[exstatic]

He’s not a starter on our team…
But really he’s going to get $15 million a year just based on potential alone and I’m ok with that. The problem I have is I just don’t see a role for him on this team. People keep saying how amazing his defense is and that’s fine and everything but it isn’t THAT amazing where we can start him bc of it. You can’t even have him close out games either bc he’s a bad free throw shooter and bad three point shooter as well. So really what are the contracts of high energy bench players. They’re about what you give Steven Adams. $13-15 million a year

He’s a 72.5% career FT shooter. That’s better than Duncan’s career mark.

He’s also our only real big wing defender, taking care of guys
Like LeBron and Tatum.

[Ariel]

the thing with Sochan is that his extension should be quite low. If the Spurs can sign him indeed for something around 35/3 that would be good value if he all of a sudden comes into the season shooting 3s.
Yeah, the extension is the issue, him developing a respectable jump shot is not impossible but it's fair to assume it's unlikely. If he's willing to sign an extension that reflects that then you can hold on to him for a couple more years to see how it progresses, otherwise in this apron era he becomes a huge negative the second he signs that extension, that's a chance I wouldn't take given there's already a viable core in place and that money needs to go towards complementing them.

If he's willing to take a deal below the NTMLE, say 3+1 or 2+1 (last year team option) then you can continue investing at a tolerable risk, otherwise just forgo an extension and let him play the year and enter restricted free agency, you can either include him if anyone gives you back positive value, or negotiate a year from now or match. I don't see a market for him currently, I read the past couple of days Cleveland had to attach assets to move from Okoro who is making barely above 10 million for a couple of years, that should tell you the market for role players who aren't proven playoff contributors.

I think an interesting hedge would be, if he isn't willing to sign a team friendly extension right now, to push talks off for a year while signing LaRavia to a deal below 10 million, say 2+1 (team option) for 25 million or so. You get more time to evaluate who is your long term keeper, for fielding offers for Sochan, and in any case you still get a chance to match any offer sheet. Most sensible path right now IMO.

[LeBowen]

He’s also our only real big wing defender, taking care of guys
Like LeBron and Tatum.

This is kind of becoming irrelevant with the new generation.
Who are even the elite big wings that could compete against the Spurs in the future?
Amen Thompson isn't that big, speed will be more important when defending him.
I guess Flagg is coming.
Zion will never get healthy.
There's also Markkanen.
That's it for star wings under 30 with legit size in the West.

Tatum, Giannis, Wagner, Banchero and I guess maybe Barnes are in the East.

We won't really need a great on ball big defender as much, having size will be relevant for rebounding.

[Mnky]

the thing with Sochan is that his extension should be quite low. If the Spurs can sign him indeed for something around 35/3 that would be good value if he all of a sudden comes into the season shooting 3s.

That would be amazing value. I would it expect it to be quite a bit higher just because of the crazy market these days.

Really no telling when he doesn't have a major feature outside of his defense. Hate to pay for potential but the market is what it is.

[cd98]

From all the rumors, the Suns wanted Sochan and the Spurs said no. They value this guy a lot more than Spurstalk.

[couchman]

This is kind of becoming irrelevant with the new generation.
Who are even the elite big wings that could compete against the Spurs in the future?
Amen Thompson isn't that big, speed will be more important when defending him.
I guess Flagg is coming.
Zion will never get healthy.
There's also Markkanen.
That's it for star wings under 30 with legit size in the West.

Tatum, Giannis, Wagner, Banchero and I guess maybe Barnes are in the East.

We won't really need a great on ball big defender as much, having size will be relevant for rebounding.

I'd put JWill from OKC on the list of big wing sized players we will need to be able to defend against for the foreseeable future

[KobesAchilles]

He’s a 72.5% career FT shooter. That’s better than Duncan’s career mark.

He’s also our only real big wing defender, taking care of guys
Like LeBron and Tatum.
He shot 68% last year and tbh Duncan was a shitty free throw shooter too. Eventually he became a good one but I was always nervous with Duncan at the line.

I know he is our only big wing defender. But I’m not really sure that we need a big wing defender outside of the two LA teams. And Kawhi lights us up anyways so I don’t think Sochan would shut him down. In the West we can get away with the 3 guard line up. Really with LeBron and Luka being such shitty defenders we can get away with it against them too.

My point is though that Sochan isn’t a starter so really he is going to get bench player money. And if he doesn’t get a shot then we would look to replace him the same way we are looking to replace Vassell. Like what if we draft Carter Bryant with the 14th and he learns to shoot. Would Sochan ever be our starter in that case? Probably not. As of now his role is high energy bench defender. I don’t see that changing.

[scott]

Starters get 15 plus and it's going up
Rotational players get around 8 plus.

You think Sochan is kinda in the middle of that?

As a player, I think that’s exactly where he is.

The previous page post about being patient with Sochan because he is still young and developing is compelling… but if he is still 3 years away… then he basically needs to take that sub MLE money to give a team the runway to be patient with him. Can’t afford to pay developed-product prices for potential.

Sounds like argument for Sochan’s developmental path is the same argument for why he needs to basically be on a 7-year look rookie deal (money wise)

[Dverde]

Suns seem determined to get a big in return for Durant. What if Toronto pulls another Nephew plan to go all in and offers up Poeltl and RJ Barrett and 2026, 2028 lightly protected lottery first round picks

[Mr. Body]

Suns seem determined to get a big in return for Durant. What if Toronto pulls another Nephew plan to go all in and offers up Poeltl and RJ Barrett and 2026, 2028 lightly protected lottery first round picks

Phoenix likely takes it. Durant throws a hissy fit. He wants warm weather and no income tax.

[spurraider21]

Suns seem determined to get a big in return for Durant. What if Toronto pulls another Nephew plan to go all in and offers up Poeltl and RJ Barrett and 2026, 2028 lightly protected lottery first round picks
then they get durant

[RC_Drunkford]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GtkMRAgWgAEdfSq?format=jpg&name=large

[LeBowen]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GtkMRAgWgAEdfSq?format=jpg&name=large

Jeremy with that huge magazine because he needs all the bullets he can get to actually hit someone. :lol

[ambchang]

So much better. Is it me, or do his legs do a weird kick on the jump?

Yeah. Kick and also leaning to the right. But progress.

[Mnky]

From all the rumors, the Suns wanted Sochan and the Spurs said no. They value this guy a lot more than Spurstalk.

Spursfans overvalue our bench that would be in the G league on other teams and undervalues the only players with actual game ability.

Defense wins championships and he's the best defender on the perimeter the Spurs have and one of the best in the league. This is a league dominated by wings.

[LeBowen]

one of the best in the league.

:lmao


This is a league dominated by wings.

How many non-shooters have had relevant roles in this year's playoffs?
Not a single non-shooting wing has been relevant. We lost regular season games because Jeremy was left wide open over and over again and couldn't do shit, he'd be unplayable in the playoffs.

How would you play against OKC's aggressive defense that's focused on forcing turnovers if you have Sochan in the corner, ffs.

[Agloco]

the thing with Sochan is that his extension should be quite low. If the Spurs can sign him indeed for something around 35/3 that would be good value if he all of a sudden comes into the season shooting 3s.

I don’t see Sochan resigning for anything less than 54/3

[RC_Drunkford]

I don’t see Sochan resigning for anything less than 54/3

terrible

[Splits]

Locked on Spurs Jeff Garcia said the other day Sochan's extension clock in at 4/80

[scott]

I don’t see Sochan resigning for anything less than 54/3

This is right in that "eh... I guess that's not toooooo bad" range, where an AAV of $20MM gets you in the "what a bad deal" range. 3/54 is still in that "it won't cost us too much to dump this if we have to" territory but the "this was a great bargain" range if it works out. I'm still hoping 3/45 is the upper range, with 3/36 being more of the target... we'll see how much friendship buys you with the front office these days.

[Mnky]

:lmao



How many non-shooters have had relevant roles in this year's playoffs?
Not a single non-shooting wing has been relevant. We lost regular season games because Jeremy was left wide open over and over again and couldn't do shit, he'd be unplayable in the playoffs.

How would you play against OKC's aggressive defense that's focused on forcing turnovers if you have Sochan in the corner, ffs.

Sochan is literally regarded as one of the best perimeter defenders and regularly sits in the top isolation defenders in the league.

You must be one of the guys who doesn't actually watch games.

What is your actual argument? You want Sochan to be the centerpiece of the offense against OKC when you have Wemby and Fox? You're creating ridiculous situations to attempt to feint an actual argument. The fact you think Wemby and Fox shouldn't be the focus is wild once again.

The wings are controlling the Finals. Sochan is one of the best at controlling the wings. You know how much easier that makes life on Wemby? Prolly not.

But goal post moving aside, actually respond to the comments that were made.
Prove Sochan isn't a good defender in isolation against wings and prove defense doesn't matter. That's what you responded to in argument. You didn't provide any rationales on either being wrong.

[LeBowen]

Sochan is literally regarded as one of the best perimeter defenders and regularly sits in the top isolation defenders in the league.

You must be one of the guys who doesn't actually watch games.

What is your actual argument? You want Sochan to be the centerpiece of the offense against OKC when you have Wemby and Fox? You're creating ridiculous situations to attempt to feint an actual argument. The fact you think Wemby and Fox shouldn't be the focus is wild once again.

The wings are controlling the Finals. Sochan is one of the best at controlling the wings. You know how much easier that makes life on Wemby? Prolly not.

But goal post moving aside, actually respond to the comments that were made.
Prove Sochan isn't a good defender in isolation against wings and prove defense doesn't matter. That's what you responded to in argument. You didn't provide any rationales on either being wrong.

There's a massive fucking difference between a good defender and one of the best in the league you retard.
Typical fan of everything being either 0/10 or 10/10 and nothing inbetween.

[Ariel]

Locked on Spurs Jeff Garcia said the other day Sochan's extension clock in at 4/80
That's horrendous, no one in the league is going to give them that money and he becomes useless even as salary filler. There's no upside to extending him now if that's what he's asking for, let him play out the year and test RFA. It usually works out for the team (Reaves, PJ Washington, etc).

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gtm-59FWkAAmufe?format=png&name=900x900

[Mnky]

There's a massive fucking difference between a good defender and one of the best in the league you retard.
Typical fan of everything being either 0/10 or 10/10 and nothing inbetween.

Youngest player in the top 10 isolation defensive metric.

Top 10 is one of the best, if you didn't know.
Top 25 percentile in defensive rating in the NBA.

Once again, no facts, just elementary conjecture. Gave you a chance and even lined it out for you and you still couldn't come up with actual facts.

[cutewizard]

Just ship out the friends

Will make us happy, hahahaha

[LeBowen]

Youngest player in the top 10 isolation defensive metric.

Top 10 is one of the best, if you didn't know.


Nice of you to provide some sources.
Or did you just catch a tweet somewhere?

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/isolation?dir=D&sort=PERCENTILE

This one for example is useless.
Jeremy is at 84.8% which should be in line with his good defensive play, but then players of similar size like OG and McDaniels have useless data at 25% and 47%, with lower being worse.


Top 25 percentile in defensive rating in the NBA.

Defensive rating doesn't really mean much in the bigger picture and you do realize that top25% would be good if you want to look at it like that.
As I said, he's a good defender, but even if he was the best 1v1 defender in the league it's little use if he makes the game 4v5 on the other end if he's not right under the basket.
There are no more Andre Robersons in the league.

[ace3g]

https://x.com/Spurs_Latam/status/1935150688943665657

https://x.com/SpursCJS/status/1935151192222339230

[Obstructed_View]

Jeremy has to hit threes or he's just a role player with a minutes cap.

[SpursFan86]

Obviously it doesn’t mean shit if it doesn’t translate into shooting in real games, but it’s still exciting to see how much his form has improved. The difference between these recent videos to last year or when he came into the league is pretty staggering.

[KobesAchilles]

Obviously it doesn’t mean shit if it doesn’t translate into shooting in real games, but it’s still exciting to see how much his form has improved. The difference between these recent videos to last year or when he came into the league is pretty staggering.
It’s his mindset that is equally important. Dude is scared to shoot as well. That doesn’t go away in one offseason. It might never go away.

[Ariel]

It’s his mindset that is equally important. Dude is scared to shoot as well. That doesn’t go away in one offseason. It might never go away.
Last season watching him pass up on open threes time and again was terrible, it killed the flow of the offense. However, I think it's got more to do with the fact that he was trying hard to be more efficient than actually having a mental block like a Ben Simmons. Still, will consider him reaching respectable status as a shooter is a longshot.

[tbdog]

https://x.com/Spurs_Latam/status/1935150688943665657

https://x.com/SpursCJS/status/1935151192222339230

He didn't miss a shot. :bobo

[John B]

He didn't miss a shot. :bobo

Of the 30 secs video uploaded, no. I’m not sure about the rest.

[Bruno]

It's great for Spurs that Sochan will play for Poland this summer. They will be able to evaluate if this better shooting mechanics translate to games (even if FIBA's 3 point line is a little closer).
Sochan's outside shooting is the key point regarding his rookie extension. If he still can't shoot, I think Spurs shouldn't even offer him an extension and just wait the 2026 offseason.

[TekXX]

It won't be better, this team doesn't get better, it's the same shit every year.

[BatManu20]

1935155450472972372

[BatManu20]

1935150688943665657

[Guru of Nothing]

It's real to me, dammit.

[RC_Drunkford]

you can doubt him all you want, but his form is much better and he's clearly putting in the work. That's really all you can ask for.

1935156222212104446

[LeBowen]

you can doubt him all you want, but his form is much better and he's clearly putting in the work. That's really all you can ask for.

1935156222212104446

And this was him 3 years ago.
(0:50 timestamp since this garbage forum doesn't register it in the link for some reason)


https://youtu.be/sarzUqkqT4c?t=50

[RC_Drunkford]

And this was him 3 years ago.
(0:50 timestamp since this garbage forum doesn't register it in the link for some reason)


https://youtu.be/sarzUqkqT4c?t=50

I know he shot it like that before. Spurs staff probably put the hitch in so he focuses on one thing at a time in his shooting form. Still you can see progress. If it translates to games has to be seen, but at least the kid is working hard on it.

I've seen this dude warm up pregame in January and his shooting was abysmal. That's good progress for 5 months.

[LeBowen]

I know he shot it like that before. Spurs staff probably put the hitch in so he focuses on one thing at a time in his shooting form. Still you can see progress. If it translates to games has to be seen, but at least the kid is working hard on it.

I've seen this dude warm up pregame in January and his shooting was abysmal. That's good progress for 5 months.

There's obviously progress, but a lot of non-shooters look great in practice.
Until he starts showing progress in games, I'm not getting hyped over it.

The first thing he needs to do is not hesitate when left wide open.
If he hesitates, that's game over already.

[Ice009]

There's obviously progress, but a lot of non-shooters look great in practice.
Until he starts showing progress in games, I'm not getting hyped over it.

The first thing he needs to do is not hesitate when left wide open.
If he hesitates, that's game over already.

100%. He's gotta let it fly with confidence. If not, it's pretty much over. Gotta trust the hard work he's put in.

[RC_Drunkford]

There's obviously progress, but a lot of non-shooters look great in practice.
Until he starts showing progress in games, I'm not getting hyped over it.

The first thing he needs to do is not hesitate when left wide open.
If he hesitates, that's game over already.

yeah but if you would've seen him practice...this is worldly progress :lol

[Kevin]

There's obviously progress, but a lot of non-shooters look great in practice.
Until he starts showing progress in games, I'm not getting hyped over it.

The first thing he needs to do is not hesitate when left wide open.
If he hesitates, that's game over already.

I remember an interview with TP where he said Aaron Baynes was money from mid range in practice but it never translated to real games. Many such cases.

[John B]

I remember an interview with TP where he said Aaron Baynes was money from mid range in practice but it never translated to real games. Many such cases.

Baynes shot pretty well with BOS though at .351 from 3pt. During the Big 3, players were more like “specialist,” doing what they do best. They didn’t wear many hats and avoided many turnovers as a result. Such was the case with Baynes. His role was the defend the post and rebound the ball. With the Spurs bringing more talent, they should be able to get back to that. We don’t have to see Sochan playing the PG one night, then backup Center the following night, or Vassell having to “create” too much, that is if he takes the reduced role.

[Mnky]

you can doubt him all you want, but his form is much better and he's clearly putting in the work. That's really all you can ask for.

1935156222212104446

Young player with talent and a top end defender putting in work on his weaknesses and it upsets people here.

Some people are just miserable. Their takes don't rely on anything outside of that.

Like you said, he's doing literally all you can ask for.

[ambchang]

There's obviously progress, but a lot of non-shooters look great in practice.
Until he starts showing progress in games, I'm not getting hyped over it.

The first thing he needs to do is not hesitate when left wide open.
If he hesitates, that's game over already.

I’m not sure how much is lack of confidence and how much is coaching instructions. Pop used to tell Parker to cut down on the threes and work on the other parts of his game. Granted that was 20 years ago but I’m guessing the coaches basically told him to not shoot.

[Ni-G]

I think it was coaching staff and Jeremy together agreeing that it doesn't make sense to to chuck 3s when his form is deconstructed and with a terrible hitch last season, but he has to start shooting open 3s next year. Shooting and hitting.

[ace3g]

https://x.com/Spurs_Latam/status/1936126292245741743

[LeBowen]

Black Steph Curry, tbh.

[CorrectCrusader]

It seriously blows my mind that NBA players can't hit wide open shots. Just makes me sick.

[picnroll]

He’s not doing that twisty leg thing when he lands in this video.

[RC_Drunkford]

he was actually shooting contest jumpers yesterday. I'm just too lazy to download IG stories and post them.

[palangi]

Do we feel if Sochan can develop a three point shot that he could be more of a wing at the 3 spot? His athleticism and defense definitely would allow him to play there.

[mo7888]

Do we feel if Sochan can develop a three point shot that he could be more of a wing at the 3 spot? His athleticism and defense definitely would allow him to play there.

If he's playing beside KD, absolutely.

[RC_Drunkford]

He'd be perfect next to KD if he can indeed knock down 3s. Mobile enough to play the 3, good defender and good rebounder. The only thing is we would technically need another 40% shooter at the other forward spot, because our guards lack shooting.

[SpursFan86]

He'd be perfect next to KD if he can indeed knock down 3s. Mobile enough to play the 3, good defender and good rebounder. The only thing is we would technically need another 40% shooter at the other forward spot, because our guards lack shooting.

That’s what KD is for! If we’re assuming Sochan/KD/Wemby is the front court then I think that’s plenty of shooting (operating under the very optimistic idea that Sochan is a decent shooter). It’s not like Fox is Rondo or anything. Harper isn’t some total non-shooter either as he had very respectable catch and shoot numbers in college.

If Sochan can be a decent shooter and we add KD I think we’re in a pretty damn good spot tbh. But obviously would still be nice to add another 3&D type guy.

[dn0774]

It's not just purely about 3P% for Sochan, his willingness/eagerness to shoot them is even more important. Historically, when the ball swings to him there is always that awkward moment of hesitation where he realizes he is supposed to shoot it and the defense realizes he doesn't want to shoot it and thus doesn't even need to close out. Just an absolute play/momentum killer. He needs to get excited for the open look and send it, if it clanks then oh well that's Mitch's problem.

If he can't get to that point then he needs to never try to space out on the 3 point line and just needs to stick to cutting and dunker spot stuff.

[RC_Drunkford]

That’s what KD is for! If we’re assuming Sochan/KD/Wemby is the front court then I think that’s plenty of shooting (operating under the very optimistic idea that Sochan is a decent shooter). It’s not like Fox is Rondo or anything. Harper isn’t some total non-shooter either as he had very respectable catch and shoot numbers in college.

If Sochan can be a decent shooter and we add KD I think we’re in a pretty damn good spot tbh. But obviously would still be nice to add another 3&D type guy.

yeah, but Fox is not a sniper and with Harper it has to be seen at what percentage he can hit those. Not to forget Castle ain't a great shooter either. So it makes sense to have a forward pairing that can knock down high percentages plus Wemby at the 5. That would then open up the lanes for our guards. Other than that, Sochan would be perfect next to KD.

[dn0774]

We need teams to put their centers on Wemby; he gets by them easier, he gets open looks easier. Teams won't put their centers on a guard due to blow by potential, but they will absolutely put them on Sochan/non-shooting 3s and 4s so they can shift the Dillon Brooks/PJ Washingtons of the world onto Wemby to make his life hell in his preferred spots.

I expect Wemby will get better and stronger to help neutralize the tactic of playing stout wing defenders on him, but until he does it will be what teams want to do. Its a big part of the reason we quickly abandoned the Wemby @ the 4 trial in November of his rookie season. Pairing Wemby with another big just invites other teams to put the smaller but sturdier and quicker defensive players on him.

[scott]

We need teams to put their centers on Wemby; he gets by them easier, he gets open looks easier. Teams won't put their centers on a guard due to blow by potential, but they will absolutely put them on Sochan/non-shooting 3s and 4s so they can shift the Dillon Brooks/PJ Washingtons of the world onto Wemby to make his life hell in his preferred spots.

I expect Wemby will get better and stronger to help neutralize the tactic of playing stout wing defenders on him, but until he does it will be what teams want to do. Its a big part of the reason we quickly abandoned the Wemby @ the 4 trial in November of his rookie season. Pairing Wemby with another big just invites other teams to put the smaller but sturdier and quicker defensive players on him.

This is why I'm a bit surprised by the reports that Sochan is supposedly the sticking poitn for a KD trade.

KD forces centers onto Wemby, Sochan playing next to Wemby feeds into exactly what the defense wants to do (which you described).

[exstatic]

yeah, but Fox is not a sniper and with Harper it has to be seen at what percentage he can hit those. Not to forget Castle ain't a great shooter either. So it makes sense to have a forward pairing that can knock down high percentages plus Wemby at the 5. That would then open up the lanes for our guards. Other than that, Sochan would be perfect next to KD.

What the hell team has two starting forwards who both shoot 40% from 3?

[dn0774]

This is why I'm a bit surprised by the reports that Sochan is supposedly the sticking poitn for a KD trade.

KD forces centers onto Wemby, Sochan playing next to Wemby feeds into exactly what the defense wants to do (which you described).

Yea, sending Sochan in the trade solves two problems: don't have to deal with his extension which could be contentious unless the Spurs are just going to roll over and overpay (a distinct possibility) and we wouldn't have to deal with his clunky fit with Castle mainly and to a lesser extent Wemby. I am kind of surprised Sochan is the supposed sticking point...hopefully the Spurs "give in" last minute to push a deal through or something but who knows.

Not that I even want Durant that badly, just moving off Vassell especially and Sochan as well needs to happen from a team building standpoint. Durant would be a nice to have for a couple years, though.

[RC_Drunkford]

What the hell team has two starting forwards who both shoot 40% from 3?

what the hell team has 2 questionable shooters in their starting backcourt?

[scott]

Yea, sending Sochan in the trade solves two problems: don't have to deal with his extension which could be contentious unless the Spurs are just going to roll over and overpay (a distinct possibility) and we wouldn't have to deal with his clunky fit with Castle mainly and to a lesser extent Wemby. I am kind of surprised Sochan is the supposed sticking point...hopefully the Spurs "give in" last minute to push a deal through or something but who knows.

Not that I even want Durant that badly, just moving off Vassell especially and Sochan as well needs to happen from a team building standpoint. Durant would be a nice to have for a couple years, though.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel. I don't even hate Sochan that much... I just don't want to overpay on the hope his shot comes around.

[TekXX]

Yea, sending Sochan in the trade solves two problems: don't have to deal with his extension which could be contentious unless the Spurs are just going to roll over and overpay (a distinct possibility) and we wouldn't have to deal with his clunky fit with Castle mainly and to a lesser extent Wemby. I am kind of surprised Sochan is the supposed sticking point...hopefully the Spurs "give in" last minute to push a deal through or something but who knows.

Not that I even want Durant that badly, just moving off Vassell especially and Sochan as well needs to happen from a team building standpoint. Durant would be a nice to have for a couple years, though.

Also his trolling bullshit is already old. Learn to play good and then you can spend half the game trying to get under a certain guys skin.

[KobesAchilles]

If Sochan learned how to shoot and make 3s with actual volume and good percentage then a lot of our issues would be fixed. Sochan would need to be at around 40% for me to even take him seriously as a shooter since literally all his 3 point shots are wide open and defenders don’t even run out to him.

But I might as well say that Vassell learned how to play defense in the offseason and becomes an all nba defender. Both have about the same probability of happening

[dn0774]

If Sochan learned how to shoot and make 3s with actual volume and good percentage then a lot of our issues would be fixed. Sochan would need to be at around 40% for me to even take him seriously as a shooter since literally all his 3 point shots are wide open and defenders don’t even run out to him.

But I might as well say that Vassell learned how to play defense in the offseason and becomes an all nba defender. Both have about the same probability of happening

He showed some defensive trends and signals his first couple seasons but that seemed to fall off a cliff...got that 2nd contract and his effort on D cratered? Wonder if he knows his idol Kobe made 12 NBA All-Defense teams.

[Ocotillo]

If Vassell is still on the roster this coming season, Williamson will get on him about playing D.

[Bruno]

Vassell needs to go from "I want to be the next Kobe" to "I want to be the next Nesmith".

Vassell with the right mindset should turn into a valuable complimentary player for Spurs. It's up to him to make that switch with the help of the coaching staff.

[RC_Drunkford]

this is exactly why people don't put much stock in empty gym shooting workouts :lol

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[dn0774]

I've had a gnawing concern the Spurs/Mitch will have Sochan earmarked as a starter going into this season. Assuming Castle is in the SL as well, that would make our starting lineup offensive potential seriously handicapped. Last year we already had the issue of going down 10-12 points in the opening 6 minutes quite routinely, it sucked playing from behind so often and the reason for that was the anemic offense that went through a lot of droughts.

I guess once we see where his extension comes in (or if it doesn't) we'll know more about which role the Spurs envision for him in the near future. Hopefully, its more of a 2nd guy off the bench role who could play 30 mins or 14 mins depending on match ups.

[RC_Drunkford]

at least Sochan is already a better shooter than Westbrook

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[benefactor]

at least Sochan is already a better shooter than Westbrook

1936174692299104282
:lol

[dn0774]

at least Sochan is already a better shooter than Westbrook

1936174692299104282

PHX needs to sign this man and reunite the Beal/Bestbrook Wizards asap.

[Ice009]

That block was gold.

[Pauleta14]

Sam Vecenie talks about Sochan's extension with his pal from 1h27min

Overrating him but his pal points the lack of shooting being an issue

They value him between 15-20M/year but clearly don't watch him much imo.


https://www.youtube.com/live/RbcsoD2IuuQ?si=2uW1b2hSwIpbf8wh

[RC_Drunkford]

1937663948263752088

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1937712970504540387

[John B]

1937663948263752088

1937754353001246851

1937712970504540387

Are we taking Ben Simmons? Sochan is >>> on top of better production, 6 yrs younger, a locker room guy, and seems motivated to improve his game. While Simmons seems content on where he is now, not seeing dawg in him .. such a waste of talent.

[CorrectCrusader]

this is exactly why people don't put much stock in empty gym shooting workouts :lol

1936105672195637674

Open gym videos show that Knicks center taking harden dribble stepback threes. They're completely worthless

[ace3g]

The Ben Simmons gym video comparisons need to stop. You can actually see changes/progressions in Sochan's jumper.

[LeBowen]

Ben Simmons videos are the joke because Simmons has been posting good looking jumpshot videos for almost a decade now, only to never translate it to actual games.

[Ice009]

Something Kawhi said years ago which is pretty accurate - Kawhi said some players look great in practice, but they can't seem bring what they practice and do it in games. Kawhi said that is the difference between himself and a lot of other players that work on their game and look good in practice - he's able to bring/apply what he learns in practice and do it in actual games. That's how he was able to get so much better.

[KobesAchilles]

The Ben Simmons gym video comparisons need to stop. You can actually see changes/progressions in Sochan's jumper.
None of that matters when he refuses to shoot open 3s. His mindset is very Simmonsesque. Sochan can make all the practice shots he wants but he is clearly in his own head. It’s why he needs to be shooting from 4-15 feet every day instead of just 3s.

[picnroll]

Aaron Gordon shot sub 30% his first three years in the league, made a breakthrough to 33.6% his fourth year. Let’s see how Sochan does in his fourth year. Btw in 12 years in the league only 2 years has Gordon shot an overall FG% as high as Sochan’s last year.

[RC_Drunkford]

The Ben Simmons gym video comparisons need to stop. You can actually see changes/progressions in Sochan's jumper.

I believe Sochan is making great strides. But you can only buy the shooting once it happens in games consistently. The progress is visible though.

[ace3g]

I'm not talking about the makes in the video, I am talking the progression from the hitch to now.

I would be worried if he was shooting with no hitch in practice and it appeared in games.

This was clearly a total restructure of his shooting mechanics and was going to take a few years.


It's not like Charles Barkley where at the driving range the hitch was gone and at the course it was there.

Again, has there really been any noticeable change to Simmons shooting mechanics since his rookie year?

[Pauleta14]

Aaron Gordon shot sub 30% his first three years in the league, made a breakthrough to 33.6% his fourth year. Let’s see how Sochan does in his fourth year. Btw in 12 years in the league only 2 years has Gordon shot an overall FG% as high as Sochan’s last year.

This Aaron Gordon comp needs to stop, Gordon had a lot more skills is many areas than Sochan and was an athletic monster with way better handles and ability to create his own shot.

Sochan gets occasionally blocked by the rim ffs :lol

The issues are way beyond his lack of 3pts shooting

[exstatic]

This Aaron Gordon comp needs to stop, Gordon had a lot more skills is many areas than Sochan and was an athletic monster with way better handles and ability to create his own shot.

Sochan gets occasionally blocked by the rim ffs :lol

The issues are way beyond his lack of 3pts shooting

I’ve only seen SHOOTING comps with their respective progress in their early years. Also, if he had that entire skill set you ascribed to him, Orlando never would have traded him. He was widely considered a bust at #2 overall, and his late career arc, like Westbrook’s, can be attributed to Jokic.

[Pauleta14]

I’ve only seen SHOOTING comps with their respective progress in their early years. Also, if he had that entire skill set you ascribed to him, Orlando never would have traded him. He was widely considered a bust at #2 overall, and his late career arc, like Westbrook’s, can be attributed to Jokic.

I'm not saying Gordon was elite everywhere, just had (a lot) better athleticism and fundamentals than Sochan.

Spurs fans (not just ST) keep pushing those comp (like the Draymond one smh) as a copping mechanism, it seems to me.

You can use the same stupid comp with HOFers if you want also, you'll definitely find a specific area that gives you hope.

The issue (I have) with Sochan is that he's not limited in just one area that could require patience (his age seems to be him best skill :lol), he's poor in a lot of areas and the perspective of him improving in all or even majority of them is very poor.

Even with a decent 3pts shot, he'd still be an issue in the passing dept, the own shot creation, the handles or the athleticism

Who knows I could eat my words if those stunning practices videos were, as many seem to think, a sign of a compete Uturn... :lol

[John B]

Sochan got the memo. His is the positional need and could determine his career playing long-term with Wemby IF he makes his shots. I’m rooting for him, as he is an above average defender and could really fit that big defensive stretch that has been elusive to Spurs.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Sochan got the memo. His is the positional need and could determine his career playing long-term with Wemby IF he makes his shots. I’m rooting for him, as he is an above average defender and could really fit that big defensive stretch that has been elusive to Spurs.

Me, too. I think Sochan's shooting development is one of the 3 most important storylines for the Spurs this next season. If he can become an average 3 point shooter the Spurs path to contention becomes much clearer.

[Ariel]

This Aaron Gordon comp needs to stop, Gordon had a lot more skills is many areas than Sochan and was an athletic monster with way better handles and ability to create his own shot.

Sochan gets occasionally blocked by the rim ffs :lol

The issues are way beyond his lack of 3pts shooting
If Sochan learns to shoot even an open corner 3 a la Bowen, his defensive versatility will make him a very, very useful role player on a winning team. These hyperboles need to stop.

[cd98]

Sochan is a good player, even if he doesn't improve the 3 point shot, it's just that he doesn't fit our roster. He would be fine on a team with many good shooters. But if he wants to be all-star good, he needs a three point shot.

Too many people downplay his offseason work as "shooting in an empty gym." Well, that's how you get better. Hopefully it translates to becoming a better shooter in the games, but at least we know he is working hard to improve in the area where he is weak.

[ambchang]

None of that matters when he refuses to shoot open 3s. His mindset is very Simmonsesque. Sochan can make all the practice shots he wants but he is clearly in his own head. It’s why he needs to be shooting from 4-15 feet every day instead of just 3s.

I actually think the opposite. Sochan has shown that he is willing to do whatever the coaches tell him to, despite him being uncomfortable doing so. One handed FTs, PG, backup centre, defending the best perimeter player, defending bigs, work on his rebounds, he did them all. Whether he was effective doing them is another matter, but his willingness to do whatever it takes is why I’m still relatively high on him.

His shot is more fluid so far, it’s closer to one motion now. The legs kick sideways for some reason so the balance is not all there. There is still a bit of a hitch on release but it’s a better looking shot. He will never be Ray Allen but as long as he’s willing to let it fly even when semi covered I’m happy.

[dn0774]

I actually think the opposite. Sochan has shown that he is willing to do whatever the coaches tell him to, despite him being uncomfortable doing so. One handed FTs, PG, backup centre, defending the best perimeter player, defending bigs, work on his rebounds, he did them all. Whether he was effective doing them is another matter, but his willingness to do whatever it takes is why I’m still relatively high on him.

His shot is more fluid so far, it’s closer to one motion now. The legs kick sideways for some reason so the balance is not all there. There is still a bit of a hitch on release but it’s a better looking shot. He will never be Ray Allen but as long as he’s willing to let it fly even when semi covered I’m happy.

I would argue that he is asked to do those "uncomfortable" things because he has shown himself not capable of doing the more traditional things that his position/size typically demand. He has such an unorthodox skill set for his size/position that utilizing him effectively in the context of a 5 man lineup is tough. I appreciate the fact he is willing to shoot free throws 1 handed despite the stigma that brings, but it wouldn't even be a consideration if he could just shoot effectively in the first place like most professional basketball players who aren't 7+ feet tall.

I enjoy Jeremy being on the team in terms of personality and vibes, but I still can't pinpoint how he can be a net overall winning player with his offensive deficiencies.

[ambchang]

I'm not saying Gordon was elite everywhere, just had (a lot) better athleticism and fundamentals than Sochan.

Spurs fans (not just ST) keep pushing those comp (like the Draymond one smh) as a copping mechanism, it seems to me.

You can use the same stupid comp with HOFers if you want also, you'll definitely find a specific area that gives you hope.

The issue (I have) with Sochan is that he's not limited in just one area that could require patience (his age seems to be him best skill :lol), he's poor in a lot of areas and the perspective of him improving in all or even majority of them is very poor.

Even with a decent 3pts shot, he'd still be an issue in the passing dept, the own shot creation, the handles or the athleticism

Who knows I could eat my words if those stunning practices videos were, as many seem to think, a sign of a compete Uturn... :lol

Of course numbers don’t agree with you and you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again despite it being pointed out to you multiple times.

Based on craftednba, which admittedly isn’t the be all and end all but a data point, sochan is 57th %ile as a passer and 60th in creation

For advanced stats he’s middle of the league in adjusted assists to pass %, assists points created, potential assists and secondary assists. About 40th %ile on drives. Nothing all world but far from poor in any of them, especially when considering he was the PF for most of the year.

What are you basing your assertions on?

[ambchang]

I would argue that he is asked to do those "uncomfortable" things because he has shown himself not capable of doing the more traditional things that his position/size typically demand. He has such an unorthodox skill set for his size/position that utilizing him effectively in the context of a 5 man lineup is tough. I appreciate the fact he is willing to shoot free throws 1 handed despite the stigma that brings, but it wouldn't even be a consideration if he could just shoot effectively in the first place like most professional basketball players who aren't 7+ feet tall.

I enjoy Jeremy being on the team in terms of personality and vibes, but I still can't pinpoint how he can be a net overall winning player with his offensive deficiencies.

No question he had to shoot one 1-handed fTs because he sucked at it, the matter is that he still did it and improved (for a year, then quickly regressed).

As for the rest he kept at it despite him failing at it (PG, backup centre) because the coach thought it’s better for the team for some reason. He’s not stupid, he has social media so he knows he is getting roasted online for it, but he was mentally strong enough to keep at it and block out all the negativity, which is opposite to what Simmons did.

Other things he did well. He’s a good cutter, he defended reasonably well (about 70th %ile in FG% difference) and is a very good, if not elite offensive rebounder at 90th.

[Pauleta14]

If Sochan learns to shoot even an open corner 3 a la Bowen, his defensive versatility will make him a very, very useful role player on a winning team. These hyperboles need to stop.

What hyperboles?

His lack of shooting is far from being the only issue, it's just factual for whoever watch him play without their emo glasses.

Bowen is another funny comp I sometimes see, and it's as insane as the Draymond or Gordon comp. Bowen was a complete player, less athletic than Sochan but complete fundamentals, high BBIQ and poise. Things I've been waiting to see in Sochan.

Anyway, you guys are as usual predicatable, it's summer time, it's been too long you've watched a Spurs game and next season you'll again come back to your senses.

Same stuff happened with Vassell and now 90% of the fanbase wants him gone :lol

[Pauleta14]

Of course numbers don’t agree with you and you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again despite it being pointed out to you multiple times.

Based on craftednba, which admittedly isn’t the be all and end all but a data point, sochan is 57th %ile as a passer and 60th in creation

For advanced stats he’s middle of the league in adjusted assists to pass %, assists points created, potential assists and secondary assists. About 40th %ile on drives. Nothing all world but far from poor in any of them, especially when considering he was the PF for most of the year.

What are you basing your assertions on?

You still don't know how to use and interpret stats. I'm not wasting my time with you Karen

[ambchang]

You still don't know how to use and interpret stats. I'm not wasting my time with you Karen

Pray tell how you interpret them, because you’ve been throwing that line out dozens of time without ever explaining how. Well, except that time where you basically said stats are useless and your eye test is the best gauge in talent.

Stay proud in adamantly misunderstanding the term Karen despite being clowned by the site for it. Your refusal to learn is your strongest trait.

[Pauleta14]

Pray tell how you interpret them, because you’ve been throwing that line out dozens of time without ever explaining how. Well, except that time where you basically said stats are useless and your eye test is the best gauge in talent.

Stay proud in adamantly misunderstanding the term Karen despite being clowned by the site for it. Your refusal to learn is your strongest trait.

You like to write your truth rather than the truth.

The truth is that I explained you many times not to isolate stats without context, that you could make them say literally anything that way.

That what lobbyists, politicians, lawyers and sells men do for a living

I don't need stats to see Sochan getting blocked by the rim, miss countless gimmies or struggle with is handles when he's in the post.

That's my last answer, I'm not starting another insane convo with u, let's just agree to disagree

[exstatic]

You still don't know how to use and interpret stats. I'm not wasting my time with you Karen

Translated: I don’t have any advanced stats to back my position, so I’ll lash out, and then run away.

[dn0774]

No question he had to shoot one 1-handed fTs because he sucked at it, the matter is that he still did it and improved (for a year, then quickly regressed).

As for the rest he kept at it despite him failing at it (PG, backup centre) because the coach thought it’s better for the team for some reason. He’s not stupid, he has social media so he knows he is getting roasted online for it, but he was mentally strong enough to keep at it and block out all the negativity, which is opposite to what Simmons did.

Other things he did well. He’s a good cutter, he defended reasonably well (about 70th %ile in FG% difference) and is a very good, if not elite offensive rebounder at 90th.

I'm curious, who is his player comp is if things hit in your opinion? I've seen Aaron Gordon mentioned which is interesting. I do think Gordon is a better vertical athlete and has more traditional/translatable skills, but I can see some similarities. Even with Gordon it wasn't looking good until he found Jokic who is basketball savant to bring out his potential. Not a lot of examples of Sochan swiss army types being winning players feels like.

I see people of late in this thread excited about his change in shooting motion, but I just can't get there in terms of any meaningful 3 pt shooting and volume improvement happening at this point. It COULD happen, but from a front office roster building perspective I don't think they can put eggs in that basket anymore as we head into season 4 with little change. I think Sochan is a nice to have option off the bench, especially for certain match ups, but not at the salary I am expecting the Spurs to fork over ($18-20 million per). Etching Jeremy in as a 28 minute a night guy whether he starts or not is just overrating his abilities as I see it. I could be wrong, though. Maybe Mitch will unlock something now that the team is his to mold.

[picnroll]

You still don't know how to use and interpret stats. I'm not wasting my time with you Karen

Bowen was a tremendous player ON DEFENSE. Guess what so is Sohan by metrics, one of tbe sbsolute most successful taking on players like SGA, Brunson, Ant, Doncic. While offense Bowen had a better 3P% 40 to 30. Sochan last year had a 10% better FG%, more blocks, rebounds and asst. And the vaunted lack of 3 point attempt, Bosen was pretty steady at 3 per game. Last year was a down year for Sochan at 1.7 per game but the prior year was 3. Overall I’d say Sochan to date is proving to be a greater offensive threat. And uf you think Bowen had better handles than Sochan lol.

[dn0774]

Bowen was a tremendous player ON DEFENSE. Guess what so is Sohan by metrics, one of tbe sbsolute most successful taking on players like SGA, Brunson, Ant, Doncic. While offense Bowen had a better 3P% 40 to 30. Sochan last year had a 10% better FG%, more blocks, rebounds and asst. And the vaunted lack of 3 point attempt, Bosen was pretty steady at 3 per game. Last year was a down year for Sochan at 1.7 per game but the prior year was 3. Overall I’d say Sochan to date is proving to be a greater offensive threat. And uf you think Bowen had better handles than Sochan lol.

Can't in good faith compare 3 pt attempt rate now vs 20 years ago, completely different era at this point especially in regards to 3 pointers. Bowen's value on offense is he reliably stretched the floor by camping in the corners. Sochan doesn't have a place on the floor offensively that teams have to respect/account for. Bowen in his prime is one of the best positional perimeter defenders the league has ever seen (and he cost Duncan a couple DPOY's because of it), Sochan has a ways to go to be in that conversation.

[Ariel]

What hyperboles?

His lack of shooting is far from being the only issue, it's just factual for whoever watch him play without their emo glasses.

Bowen is another funny comp I sometimes see, and it's as insane as the Draymond or Gordon comp. Bowen was a complete player, less athletic than Sochan but complete fundamentals, high BBIQ and poise. Things I've been waiting to see in Sochan.

Anyway, you guys are as usual predicatable, it's summer time, it's been too long you've watched a Spurs game and next season you'll again come back to your senses.

Same stuff happened with Vassell and now 90% of the fanbase wants him gone :lol
Dude, you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say he's a perfect player with only one problem, I didn't compare him to Bowen, and I haven't watch a game for as long as you or anybody could have, i.e. their last regular season game. The hyperbole I alluded to involves measuring him against a set standard you and others have chosen in Aaron Gordon, when that's not the only pathway to him being valuable. What I did say is that there's a path to him being a VALUABLE contributor on a winning team if only he's able to make an open corner 3, that is as far as the Bowen comparison goes. You have some serious bias against Sochan for whatever reason, he seems to be much more important to you (in a negative way) than he is to me. As long as Spurs don't overpay him on an extension, there's no downside to keeping him another year and seeing how it goes. That's the extent of what I said, and I don't think it's too hard to grasp provided you read it carefully and without prejudice.

[picnroll]

Can't in good faith compare 3 pt attempt rate now vs 20 years ago, completely different era at this point especially in regards to 3 pointers. Bowen's value on offense is he reliably stretched the floor by camping in the corners. Sochan doesn't have a place on the floor offensively that teams have to respect/account for. Bowen in his prime is one of the best positional perimeter defenders the league has ever seen (and he cost Duncan a couple DPOY's because of it), Sochan has a ways to go to be in that conversation.

Ok. In the last three years Aaron Gordon has averaged 2.5, 1.9 and 3.4 per game. In those years he had an outlier % of 43.6, and the other two 29.0 and 34.7. I’ll accept that different teams run different schemes so maybe the importance of 3 pointers is greater for one team than another but all things taken together by these metrics Sochan’s shooting 3 to 3.5 at 35% he’s doing his job. Think I’ve gone as far as I want with this.

[scott]

This might be an overly simplistic way to look at things... but I won't believe in Sochan's shooting progress until he no longer needs to shoot FTs 1-handed just to hit them 70% clip. He's been using that trick for 3 years, the fact that he still relies upon it isn't really that great a sign.

[Pauleta14]

Translated: I don’t have any advanced stats to back my position, so I’ll lash out, and then run away.

You're a (funny) idiot.

I say isolated stats are stupid and your answer is I don't have stats :lol

Conveniently skipping the points I made by isolating one sentence

Never change, we'd miss the entertainment.

[Pauleta14]

Bowen was a tremendous player ON DEFENSE. Guess what so is Sohan by metrics, one of tbe sbsolute most successful taking on players like SGA, Brunson, Ant, Doncic. While offense Bowen had a better 3P% 40 to 30. Sochan last year had a 10% better FG%, more blocks, rebounds and asst. And the vaunted lack of 3 point attempt, Bosen was pretty steady at 3 per game. Last year was a down year for Sochan at 1.7 per game but the prior year was 3. Overall I’d say Sochan to date is proving to be a greater offensive threat. And uf you think Bowen had better handles than Sochan lol.

Nope. I didn't

Also never said Bowen was better on man defender

It's not even funny if you don't take time to read properly tbh :lol

For the handles it was a comp with Gordon

As for Bowen, I was referring to his BBIQ and poise. Even if it was at a lower level Bowen used to be the 1st scoring option when Sochan can't create his own shot and needs to be spoon-fed.

My point was that those comp are insanely stupid bc limited to just one aspect (the 3pt shooting)

Try again, I'm waiting for the draft

[exstatic]

This might be an overly simplistic way to look at things... but I won't believe in Sochan's shooting progress until he no longer needs to shoot FTs 1-handed just to hit them 70% clip. He's been using that trick for 3 years, the fact that he still relies upon it isn't really that great a sign.

It’s a comfort zone. Would you chide Rick Barry for shooting them granny style? That’s not a translatable form to the game floor, either.

[Pauleta14]

Dude, you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say he's a perfect player with only one problem, I didn't compare him to Bowen, and I haven't watch a game for as long as you or anybody could have, i.e. their last regular season game. The hyperbole I alluded to involves measuring him against a set standard you and others have chosen in Aaron Gordon, when that's not the only pathway to him being valuable. What I did say is that there's a path to him being a VALUABLE contributor on a winning team if only he's able to make an open corner 3, that is as far as the Bowen comparison goes. You have some serious bias against Sochan for whatever reason, he seems to be much more important to you (in a negative way) than he is to me. As long as Spurs don't overpay him on an extension, there's no downside to keeping him another year and seeing how it goes. That's the extent of what I said, and I don't think it's too far to grasp provided you read it carefully and without prejudice.

Bro apply your own advises to yourself and read me again...

My point was to highlight the absurdity of those Gordon comp, not to defend them.

I never said you said Sochan was perfect, I pointed out that the "as soon as he fixes his 3pt shot he'll be ok" narrative is insane because he has so many other flaws in his game that make him a liability.

Using his age and comp of other players 3pts % at the same stage of their careers is stupid because those players are so different despite having the defensive mind in common.

Obviously like with every (young) players it's always a bet, based on a multitude of criteria, we just happen to disagree on the outcome and I explained why I don't believe in him based on what he's shown up until now.

I'd love to be wrong, especially if he remains a Spur. We'll see

[scott]

It’s a comfort zone. Would you chide Rick Barry for shooting them granny style? That’s not a translatable form to the game floor, either.

Rick Barry wasn't a 3pt shooter either... so yeah... I would question whether a guy who shoots FTs granny style could develop into a viable 3pt shooter.

Edit: you're a big fan of the FT% shooting signal (and I am too, just not quite as much as you)... I view hitting 70% FTs while having to shoot them 1 handed *for 3 years* because your two handed FTs are terrible as a negative shooting signal.

[rascal]

Rick Barry wasn't a 3pt shooter either... so yeah... I would question whether a guy who shoots FTs granny style could develop into a viable 3pt shooter.

Edit: you're a big fan of the FT% shooting signal (and I am too, just not quite as much as you)... I view hitting 70% FTs while having to shoot them 1 handed *for 3 years* because your two handed FTs are terrible as a negative shooting signal.

Rick Barry only shot 31.3% 3p

[Mnky]

I actually think the opposite. Sochan has shown that he is willing to do whatever the coaches tell him to, despite him being uncomfortable doing so. One handed FTs, PG, backup centre, defending the best perimeter player, defending bigs, work on his rebounds, he did them all. Whether he was effective doing them is another matter, but his willingness to do whatever it takes is why I’m still relatively high on him.

His shot is more fluid so far, it’s closer to one motion now. The legs kick sideways for some reason so the balance is not all there. There is still a bit of a hitch on release but it’s a better looking shot. He will never be Ray Allen but as long as he’s willing to let it fly even when semi covered I’m happy.

Sochan has developed exactly how he's been told to. It's wild people still claim he's not willing to do something when he played out of position and changed his free throw Ll to the national media mocking him and did it to his best effort. People will still make story lines up.

You can hate his ability but his professionalism has been what you hope every young player would have when asked to be flexible.

[ambchang]

You like to write your truth rather than the truth.

The truth is that I explained you many times not to isolate stats without context, that you could make them say literally anything that way.

That what lobbyists, politicians, lawyers and sells men do for a living

I don't need stats to see Sochan getting blocked by the rim, miss countless gimmies or struggle with is handles when he's in the post.

That's my last answer, I'm not starting another insane convo with u, let's just agree to disagree
Where did I isolated the stats? If it’s so easy to isolate stats to prove your point why don’t you pull some to prove your point? Where is the sochan is at 5th percentile in ball handling and passing stats? I can find plenty of stats stating he’s a way below average or poor 3 pt shooter. I can find plenty of stats saying that he is a strong rebounder. I can also find plenty of stats saying he’s a terrible perimeter scorer. But I cannot find any stats saying he is a particularly poor ball handler, passer or athlete.

[exstatic]

Rick Barry wasn't a 3pt shooter either... so yeah... I would question whether a guy who shoots FTs granny style could develop into a viable 3pt shooter.

Edit: you're a big fan of the FT% shooting signal (and I am too, just not quite as much as you)... I view hitting 70% FTs while having to shoot them 1 handed *for 3 years* because your two handed FTs are terrible as a negative shooting signal.

Maybe so, but I’d view shooting 45% with two hands as a worse shooting signal.

[scott]

Maybe so, but I’d view shooting 45% with two hands as a worse shooting signal.

That's kind of the point...

[Pauleta14]

Where did I isolated the stats? If it’s so easy to isolate stats to prove your point why don’t you pull some to prove your point? Where is the sochan is at 5th percentile in ball handling and passing stats? I can find plenty of stats stating he’s a way below average or poor 3 pt shooter. I can find plenty of stats saying that he is a strong rebounder. I can also find plenty of stats saying he’s a terrible perimeter scorer. But I cannot find any stats saying he is a particularly poor ball handler, passer or athlete.

That's because you rely on stats too much thinking you'll learn something out of them that your eyes can't see.

Also might just be the fact that there isn't a "stat" for every action/behavior on the floor (hence the need to look globally of those and not try to find a "specific" one. At best you get a trend, not a definitive truth.

Also because most ppl tend to treat correlations as if they were causation.

Again you learn that at school, but most of you either forgot or just never learned it.

You're probably also influenced by the medias/journalists who use those stats as content provider. They're super entertaining bc it makes idiots speaks too comfortably, they're amazing clickabaits.

You don't have any memory of Sochan struggling frequently below the rim when he wasn't being spoon-fed easy buckets?

No memory of embarrassing rim blocks? No memory of his TOs anytime he tried to post? No memory of easy passes he misses bc either lack of awareness or confidence in his passing abilities?

No memory of the Spurs passing game being more fluid when he was absent?

There are no stats that can tell you that better than your eyes.

Finally, it's not bc I point out his limitations and my pessimism regarding his improvements that I'm not aware of his strengths, as I said multiple times it's all about balance and to me Sochan costs more than he brings.

I think that if he played in a team with different style of play and needs he could shine, but Spurs are building around Wemby with the idea of positionless basketball and everyone being able to pass and score.

Sochan just doesn't fit and not "just" bc of his shooting limitations.

I could be wrong on this last point but usually when you listen to someone and observe him behaving you can have a pretty good idea of his level of intelligence, in that regard Sochan seems like a (friendly) moron most of the time I hear or watch him.
No idea if it's a lack of maturity of just low IQ but it's another reason I just don't want him to stay bc he'd slow down the process and lower the average BBIQ of the team

[ambchang]

That's because you rely on stats too much thinking you'll learn something out of them that your eyes can't see.

Also might just be the fact that there isn't a "stat" for every action/behavior on the floor (hence the need to look globally of those and not try to find a "specific" one. At best you get a trend, not a definitive truth.

Also because most ppl tend to treat correlations as if they were causation.

Again you learn that at school, but most of you either forgot or just never learned it.

You're probably also influenced by the medias/journalists who use those stats as content provider. They're super entertaining bc it makes idiots speaks too comfortably, they're amazing clickabaits.

You don't have any memory of Sochan struggling frequently below the rim when he wasn't being spoon-fed easy buckets?

No memory of embarrassing rim blocks? No memory of his TOs anytime he tried to post? No memory of easy passes he misses bc either lack of awareness or confidence in his passing abilities?

No memory of the Spurs passing game being more fluid when he was absent?

There are no stats that can tell you that better than your eyes.

Finally, it's not bc I point out his limitations and my pessimism regarding his improvements that I'm not aware of his strengths, as I said multiple times it's all about balance and to me Sochan costs more than he brings.

I think that if he played in a team with different style of play and needs he could shine, but Spurs are building around Wemby with the idea of positionless basketball and everyone being able to pass and score.

Sochan just doesn't fit and not "just" bc of his shooting limitations.

I could be wrong on this last point but usually when you listen to someone and observe him behaving you can have a pretty good idea of his level of intelligence, in that regard Sochan seems like a (friendly) moron most of the time I hear or watch him.
No idea if it's a lack of maturity of just low IQ but it's another reason I just don't want him to stay bc he'd slow down the process and lower the average BBIQ of the team

So essentially your eye test > stats again.

Yes, sochan made mistakes, many of them. So did castle, many of them as well. He’ll, even wemby did a whole lot of “what the hell is that?” The last two years. Difference is that most people don’t decide that these mistakes are uncorrectable. Players learn and improve and to say that he can’t finish around the rim because of an few occasions, rather than looking up to see he’s actually way above median in finishing around the basket is just being lazy and dishonest.

The ironic thing is, relying on moments of mistakes that were accentuated by social media of sochans embarrassing moments is the very definition of being manipulated by the media. You say I’m influenced by the media because of stats? Find me an article saying sochan is an acceptable ball handler and passer using stats. Go ahead.

[Pauleta14]

So essentially your eye test > stats again.

Yes, sochan made mistakes, many of them. So did castle, many of them as well. He’ll, even wemby did a whole lot of “what the hell is that?” The last two years. Difference is that most people don’t decide that these mistakes are uncorrectable. Players learn and improve and to say that he can’t finish around the rim because of an few occasions, rather than looking up to see he’s actually way above median in finishing around the basket is just being lazy and dishonest.

The ironic thing is, relying on moments of mistakes that were accentuated by social media of sochans embarrassing moments is the very definition of being manipulated by the media. You say I’m influenced by the media because of stats? Find me an article saying sochan is an acceptable ball handler and passer using stats. Go ahead.

Did you even take the time to read? :lol

"making mistakes" is very different from "constantly struggling in diverses tasks" as he's shown again and again.

We're talking 3 seasons!, not just a rookie one. It's enough to have a trend long enough to draw conclusions

What do social media have to do with the topic? smh I was just referring to the over (mis)use and interpretations of stats by media and fans in general.

Did you just hoped I got my knowledge via Twitter? Its sound desperate fishing...

If i''m the 1st person you've ever heard saying one can makes stats say anything, you're confirming my point. It's never too late to educate yourself

It's used every daily by media, lobbies, politicians etc to build any narratives that suit them. If you haven't noticed it, it means you're being manipulated

Point is don't come to me with isolated stats as an argument, I'll never take you seriously and you'll keep making me laugh by asking me to bring you stats smh :lol

[John B]

Drafting Carter Bryant just put the fire on Sochan’s behind. I mean the kid is working to improve himself, but things got more real. Time to hit those outside shots Jeremy.

[ambchang]

Did you even take the time to read? :lol

"making mistakes" is very different from "constantly struggling in diverses tasks" as he's shown again and again.

We're talking 3 seasons!, not just a rookie one. It's enough to have a trend long enough to draw conclusions

What do social media have to do with the topic? smh I was just referring to the over (mis)use and interpretations of stats by media and fans in general.

Did you just hoped I got my knowledge via Twitter? Its sound desperate fishing...

If i''m the 1st person you've ever heard saying one can makes stats say anything, you're confirming my point. It's never too late to educate yourself

It's used every daily by media, lobbies, politicians etc to build any narratives that suit them. If you haven't noticed it, it means you're being manipulated

Point is don't come to me with isolated stats as an argument, I'll never take you seriously and you'll keep making me laugh by asking me to bring you stats smh :lol

If he was constantly making these mistakes it will show up on the stats. If he’s constantly fumbling the ball his TO would sky rocket, if he constantly miss easy passes his passing metrics will be awful, but they arent even with low usage. So I’d like you to square that circle other than “because I said so”. You have constantly talked in circles by proofing whatever you assert to be right by using your assertions as proof. The funniest part is then saying I’m biased by cherry picking stats then fail to cherry pick your stats to prove the opposite. Then now you are saying straight out stats are wrong and thinking that they are right is a media fallacy. The way you prove you’re right on that? Because what you saw shows otherwise.

Social media constantly featured sochan as the reason the spurs underperformed by showing clips of his mistakes. again, you are acting like other people don’t have social media and you are the only person who watch actual games. Come to think of it, you are talking like someone who only watch instagram highlights and form your opinions accordingly.

[Jordan Jackson]

If he was constantly making these mistakes it will show up on the stats. If he’s constantly fumbling the ball his TO would sky rocket, if he constantly miss easy passes his passing metrics will be awful, but they arent even with low usage. So I’d like you to square that circle other than “because I said so”. You have constantly talked in circles by proofing whatever you assert to be right by using your assertions as proof. The funniest part is then saying I’m biased by cherry picking stats then fail to cherry pick your stats to prove the opposite. Then now you are saying straight out stats are wrong and thinking that they are right is a media fallacy. The way you prove you’re right on that? Because what you saw shows otherwise.

Social media constantly featured sochan as the reason the spurs underperformed by showing clips of his mistakes. again, you are acting like other people don’t have social media and you are the only person who watch actual games. Come to think of it, you are talking like someone who only watch instagram highlights and form your opinions accordingly.

Doesn’t his continued overall Net negative rating point to some of these things about him being true? Just a wee bit.

He not the sole reason the Spurs underperform. He is a contributor to it though. Arguing otherwise seems kind of pointless at this time. Unless your Jermey’s burner account - then by all means have at it.

I don’t know why some of you get so emotional about the guy. Semi decent role player - if the Spurs are lucky. You’d think he’s prime Kawhi or something.

[Pauleta14]

If he was constantly making these mistakes it will show up on the stats. If he’s constantly fumbling the ball his TO would sky rocket, if he constantly miss easy passes his passing metrics will be awful, but they arent even with low usage. So I’d like you to square that circle other than “because I said so”. You have constantly talked in circles by proofing whatever you assert to be right by using your assertions as proof. The funniest part is then saying I’m biased by cherry picking stats then fail to cherry pick your stats to prove the opposite. Then now you are saying straight out stats are wrong and thinking that they are right is a media fallacy. The way you prove you’re right on that? Because what you saw shows otherwise.

Social media constantly featured sochan as the reason the spurs underperformed by showing clips of his mistakes. again, you are acting like other people don’t have social media and you are the only person who watch actual games. Come to think of it, you are talking like someone who only watch instagram highlights and form your opinions accordingly.

No it wouldn't

Decision-making isn't easy to quantify, you might find a few stats that cover part of those decisions but it's impossible to find any that are "exhaustive".

As for social media, I find a lot more emo defenders attacking any criticism than haters. Not even close

Another one of your confusion between correlation and causation btw, it's not social media creating fake AI videos influencing fans, just Sochan having regularly embarrassing moments. The power of the pictures doing the rest.

Even on ST, his defenders admitted that when he was absent, suddenly Spurs's offense was more fluid. It's not just me

Sochan ended up on the bench not just bc of his lack of shooting, Mitch and his staff aren't blind. For all his defensive abilities, his misses countless rotations and show a low BBIQ on both ends.

Anyway, you have your pov I have mine, I've detailed it enough now let's hope Carter Bryant put an end to this joke, it's time to build a proper Spurs team, with high IQ and passing

[Pauleta14]

Doesn’t his continued overall Net negative rating point to some of these things about him being true? Just a wee bit.

He not the sole reason the Spurs underperform. He is a contributor to it though. Arguing otherwise seems kind of pointless at this time. Unless your Jermey’s burner account - then by all means have at it.

I don’t know why some of you get so emotional about the guy. Semi decent role player - if the Spurs are lucky. You’d think he’s prime Kawhi or something.

Tbh the idea crossed my mind :lol

But no, that's just who she is, imo a bit contrarian and a lot emotionally attached to players drafted.

She had the same attitude regarding Tre Jones last season with the same type of brain contortion trying to explain how valuable Tre is and that he was a keeper smh

[rascal]

That's kind of the point...

Exactly

He's shooting his 3 point shots with two hands.

[ambchang]

Doesn’t his continued overall Net negative rating point to some of these things about him being true? Just a wee bit.

He not the sole reason the Spurs underperform. He is a contributor to it though. Arguing otherwise seems kind of pointless at this time. Unless your Jermey’s burner account - then by all means have at it.

I don’t know why some of you get so emotional about the guy. Semi decent role player - if the Spurs are lucky. You’d think he’s prime Kawhi or something.

Where is the emotion. It’s almost comical everytime someone disagree with something people somehow call them emotional, as if nobody has ever heard of gaslighting. We are all big boys here; no need to act like a teenager.

Glad you brought up net rating. Sochan was -1, wemby was +1, perhaps you’d like to explain to me why a semi decent role player is only 2 pts worse than our franchise player, whereas Harrison Barnes is somehow +10.

[ambchang]

No it wouldn't

Decision-making isn't easy to quantify, you might find a few stats that cover part of those decisions but it's impossible to find any that are "exhaustive".

As for social media, I find a lot more emo defenders attacking any criticism than haters. Not even close

Another one of your confusion between correlation and causation btw, it's not social media creating fake AI videos influencing fans, just Sochan having regularly embarrassing moments. The power of the pictures doing the rest.

Even on ST, his defenders admitted that when he was absent, suddenly Spurs's offense was more fluid. It's not just me

Sochan ended up on the bench not just bc of his lack of shooting, Mitch and his staff aren't blind. For all his defensive abilities, his misses countless rotations and show a low BBIQ on both ends.

Anyway, you have your pov I have mine, I've detailed it enough now let's hope Carter Bryant put an end to this joke, it's time to build a proper Spurs team, with high IQ and passing

Of course it can be quantified. It would be called offensive rating, and his horrible outside shooting already addressed it. His lack of shooting crowds the spacing and the offence bogs down. You can go on and on about how sochan is somehow the rare player who’s plays absolutely mismatches with every stat you throw at him. I can see a few stats here and there being off, things happen, but when multiple stats tell the same story, perhaps the stats aren’t wrong in the first place.

And :lol about causation and correlation again, pray tell how a player being on the court leading to certain individual numbers be correlation ? Since you are such an expert in stats that you never use it, I’d love to hear your perspective on how individual numbers just so happens to be the way they are.

Finally, you don’t know how social media short clips can cherry pick? Players have hundreds of plays every game, it o my takes a few to go viral for people to form a strong opinion. Only AI can do it? I’m not sure why this has to be explained, for someone who talks so condescendingly to everyone on the forum and act as someone who is so authoritative, this is just purely shocking.

[ambchang]

Tbh the idea crossed my mind :lol

But no, that's just who she is, imo a bit contrarian and a lot emotionally attached to players drafted.

She had the same attitude regarding Tre Jones last season with the same type of brain contortion trying to explain how valuable Tre is and that he was a keeper smh

And yet Tre averaged 11.5 and 5 with Chicago.

:lol calling someone a woman as an insult :lol I see you are proud to be a juvenile delinquent and think you are so clever about it.

[cutewizard]

Test Sochan for one more year or half a year

If no development, trade him

[Mnky]

So essentially your eye test > stats again.

Yes, sochan made mistakes, many of them. So did castle, many of them as well. He’ll, even wemby did a whole lot of “what the hell is that?” The last two years. Difference is that most people don’t decide that these mistakes are uncorrectable. Players learn and improve and to say that he can’t finish around the rim because of an few occasions, rather than looking up to see he’s actually way above median in finishing around the basket is just being lazy and dishonest.

The ironic thing is, relying on moments of mistakes that were accentuated by social media of sochans embarrassing moments is the very definition of being manipulated by the media. You say I’m influenced by the media because of stats? Find me an article saying sochan is an acceptable ball handler and passer using stats. Go ahead.


Wemby had some of the worse young player moments I've ever seen in a spur uniform and people act like the other kids are supposed to play perfect with less developmental time.

Sochan is a great prospect to have. It's always the people who ignore actual stats and facts that don't like him.

[John B]

Wemby had some of the worse young player moments I've ever seen in a spur uniform and people act like the other kids are supposed to play perfect with less developmental time.

Sochan is a great prospect to have. It's always the people who ignore actual stats and facts that don't like him.

What I didn’t like was when he started hesitating to shoot. He would rim run and pushed just to stop at the key to pass. It was frustrating when he started hesitating like Ben Simmons. But now he’s working on his shots and even ball handling in traffic. I’m rooting for him because he’s a defensive big who could be perfect beside Wemby once his shots start falling.

[Baam]

This team needs good shooting at the 4. Sochan's ceiling is being a average shooter and even that is a long shot. He's not a starter and should never be tbh.

[ambchang]

What I didn’t like was when he started hesitating to shoot. He would rim run and pushed just to stop at the key to pass. It was frustrating when he started hesitating like Ben Simmons. But now he’s working on his shots and even ball handling in traffic. I’m rooting for him because he’s a defensive big who could be perfect beside Wemby once his shots start falling.

Agreed on all fronts. He is hurting himself by not shooting at all. Of course, if he's shooting 30% wide open, I wonder what he'd shoot covered. His release is also slow due to the hitch, so by the time he winds up that shot, anyone can go challenge the shot if they wanted to.


This team needs good shooting at the 4. Sochan's ceiling is being a average shooter and even that is a long shot. He's not a starter and should never be tbh.

I am not entirely sure that is the case. Not everyone has to be a shooter on a winning team. Cason Wallace isn't a particularly accurate shooter, neither is Caruso, Hartenstein doesn't shoot at all. On the Pacers, Mathurin isn't dead-eye, Nembhard is actually a bad shooter, Ben Sheppard, even McConnell is bad, but the key is the willingness to shoot. The Spurs are further back, as other than Wemby, Barnes and Champaigne, nobody else is even an average shooter, so I understand why everybody is talking about shooting, but that shooting doesn't necessarily has to come from Sochan. Castle could improve, Harper could surprise, and if Fox gets his shooting from two years ago back, then this all of a sudden is a decent shooting team. Of course that's a lot of ifs, but it's not impossible.

[exstatic]

That's kind of the point...

You shouldn’t be shooting your jump shot with two hands either. The one handed FTs are training to take his left hand off the ball earlier, albeit a LOT earlier.

[Sugus]

And yet Tre averaged 11.5 and 5 with Chicago.

:lol calling someone a woman as an insult :lol I see you are proud to be a juvenile delinquent and think you are so clever about it.

There's a surprising amount of that in here -- the visual interface is hardly the only "oldschool" thing about Spurstalk :lol

[scott]

You shouldn’t be shooting your jump shot with two hands either. The one handed FTs are training to take his left hand off the ball earlier, albeit a LOT earlier.

I'll spell out the point more directly: if a guy is still using a gimmick to shoot free throws at a 70% clip, he's not the guy I'm going to bet on to become a good (or even serviceable) 3pt shooter

Will be very happy to be wrong

[BatManu20]

Didn't realize Sochan was fucking Mya Mills tbh. I owe you an apology Jeremy, I wasn't familiar with your game…

1938679792280207726

[KobesAchilles]

The dude is scared to shoot wide open 3s in games. The scouting report for him is to let him shoot and not even run out to him at the 3 point line and he’s still scared to shoot. You can’t be scared to shoot and be a good starting player on this team. What people here don’t understand is that Sochan has constantly failed tests in his entire Spurs career. People may not think of this way but everything Pop did in his development was a test of sorts and Sochan failed them all.

Pop loved everything he saw attitude wise from Sochan. He tried desperately to find some sort of niche for Sochan so that he can be a starter. He moved him from SF to PF to PG back to PF and then small ball Center. But Sochan just isn’t that guy. It’s frustrating. It’s sad bc you can keep going down the rabbit hole of he is going to improve his shot. This is the season he’s going to butterfly and be a consistent shooter. But his mind is broken when it comes to shooting the ball. If you’re a shooter you forget the misses. But Sochan is scared. Like it’s a real life fear of him to shoot a 3 ball. It’s why he only attempted one per game despite being open for triple that number.

[Ice009]

Didn't realize Sochan was fucking Mya Mills tbh. I owe you an apology Jeremy, I wasn't familiar with your game…

Never heard of her. Is she supposed to be someone famous?

[dn0774]

Never heard of her. Is she supposed to be someone famous?

ehh another social media celeb i'm guessin

[dn0774]

Spurs should send Sochan's ass to summer league tbh

[BatManu20]

Never heard of her. Is she supposed to be someone famous?


ehh another social media celeb i'm guessin

Yea pretty much. She's a British model turned social media thot. Still would though tbh.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gm4ZMgfboAAEI2m?format=jpg&name=medium

[spurraider21]

https://i.redd.it/el28c7mzm98e1.jpeg

[scott]

Was thinking about when we might see a Sochan extension, if he gets one. Here are the dates when the last players to sign rookie extensions with the Spurs did so:

Devin Vassell: Oct 3, 2023
Keldon Johnson: July 18, 2022
Derrick White: December 21, 2020
Dejounte Murray: October 21, 2019

Long story short... wouldn't expect it early on in the offseason.

Interestingly enough, from what I could tell the last Spurs direct FRP* to sign an extension was Tiago Splitter

*Nephew is the caveat here. Technically drafted by IND because of the way the NBA does draft day trades... but he was obviously an FRP who extended.

[Mnky]

What I didn’t like was when he started hesitating to shoot. He would rim run and pushed just to stop at the key to pass. It was frustrating when he started hesitating like Ben Simmons. But now he’s working on his shots and even ball handling in traffic. I’m rooting for him because he’s a defensive big who could be perfect beside Wemby once his shots start falling.

Definitely needs to take the open looks. he had games where he did and he would go on a burner. Maybe it's a good thing with a change in head coaching scheme that'll help him find that comfort on not making mistakes.

At 22 and under, he has plenty of time to find a shot though. I don't understand how people think he won't develop a shot at all or improve at all when he has every year offensively. Not at an all star level, but that's good. If he did we couldn't afford him. His defense though is such a needed commodity for a Wemby team.

His ability to switch and be a nuisance down low help Wemby so much. Not to mention he takes attention away from Wemby in scuffles. When the players are focused on him starting stuff, they have less energy for Wemby. Every star needs those enforced type mindsets that take attention away. Kid just fits a bunch of boxes and people only focus one a couple like chet holmgreen didn't just shoot horrid in the finals. It's not as big a deal as people make it out to be.

[scott]

At 22 and under, he has plenty of time to find a shot though. I don't understand how people think he won't develop a shot at all or improve at all when he has every year offensively.

He's young and has time to improve, but I would dispute this. His offensive game in year 3 appeared to regress, other than in his shot diet.

His FG% increased, but only because of a change to his shot diet where the majority of his FGA are within 3 feet of the basket. Hi shooting from any other place on the court has been stagnant or has regressed. Even his FT%, still relying on the "one-hand" gimmick, was a career worst in year 3.

He also has significantly less self-creation ability in year 3, as evidenced by a significant jump up the % of his 2P FG's assisted by others. At this point, Jeremy is nothing more than a cutter/dunker. On one hand, it's a good thing that he's limiting shots he's not effective at, but on the other hand we need someone on the court who can be effective at those other shots. On offense, Sochan just allows the opposing team to put their C on his which results in Wemby being matched up with the opposing SF/PF, players who typically give him more trouble and preventing the opposing team's rim protector to be drawn out, so one advantage Wemby gives us gets neutralized.

https://i.imgur.com/SwF8msw.png
My opinion doesn't mean anything, but I'm still on team "let him prove it" - no need to trade him unless the right deal comes along, but don't extend him and let him earn his next contact going into next summer as an RFA. The worst case scenario is Jeremy hits his highest potential outcomes and we have to pay what a lot of people are suggesting we pay him anyway.

[BatManu20]

This will be a pretty telling year for Sochan imo. Based on the videos we've seen of him shooting recently, if his hitch really is gone and he can start hitting 3's at a respectable clip, then he's a perfect pairing with Wemby as a switchable defender on defense and a stretch 4 offensively, and he will be a Spur for a long time.

If the videos are false hope and he doesn't show any improvement with his 3-point shot in year 4, I think there's a good chance the Spurs will start looking elsewhere for Wemby's front court running mate tbh. This is one of the major reasons I would love for the Spurs to trade for John Collins. He immediately gives us what we want Sochan to be, and if it doesn't work out for whatever reason, he's on an expiring and we can just let him walk. Low risk, high reward opportunity imo.

1936142943058080034

[picnroll]

Per statmuse 3 pt shots taken by PFs in 24-25 1.1 per game and shots made 0.4. Think we have a little false narrative going on here.

In edit a starting PF takes 3.4 makes 1.2. Split the difference for Sochan a non-starter so on average he should be taking 2.25. Still I’d call it an overly exaggerated narrative. In 23-24 he actually averaged over 3 at 30%.

[benefactor]

In before they pay him like a valued contributor and we are stuck with him

[Mugen]

Yea pretty much. She's a British model turned social media thot. Still would though tbh.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gm4ZMgfboAAEI2m?format=jpg&name=medium

Damn, Jer.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQauuVdzjx1TzLt_e_wknYpZmtXvR3Vq 7sFVQ&s

[Mugen]

Ben Simmons looks like Klay Thompson during the summer tbh.

[benefactor]

Yea pretty much. She's a British model turned social media thot. Still would though tbh.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gm4ZMgfboAAEI2m?format=jpg&name=medium
Hopefully she's whispering in his ear about big markets

[scott]

Per statmuse 3 pt shots taken by PFs in 24-25 1.1 per game and shots made 0.4. Think we have a little false narrative going on here.

Using this table, and filtering for all players listed as PF who averaged more than 15mpg... the average is 3.80 3PA/gm, 1.363PM/gm, .358 3P%

Statmuse isn't perfect.

Edited, had a formula wrong

[Dejounte]

Using this table, and filtering for all players listed as PF who averaged more than 15mpg... the average is 3.46 3PA/gm, 1.24 3PM/gm, .359 3P%

Statmuse isn't perfect.

So 3 shots a game, not the volume 3 pt shooting specialist some here desire for the pf spot like Cam Johnson, TM3… i may have backed down from wanting a twin towers lineup, but i still hold the belief that it’s not necessary for our pf to be a guy who stands outside and does nothing inside on offense.

[picnroll]

Using this table, and filtering for all players listed as PF who averaged more than 15mpg... the average is 3.46 3PA/gm, 1.24 3PM/gm, .359 3P%

Statmuse isn't perfect.
Noted in my edit and still think the Sochan issues on 3 pts is overblown. I’m expecting/ hoping he hits the 35% mark next year and my dream he gets recognized as an all NBA defender and a candidate for MIP.

[scott]

Noted in my edit and still think the Sochan issues on 3 pts is overblown. I’m expecting/ hoping he hits the 35% mark next year and my dream he gets recognized as an all NBA defender and a candidate for MIP.


So 3 shots a game, not the volume 3 pt shooting specialist some here desire for the pf spot like Cam Johnson, TM3… i may have backed down from wanting a twin towers lineup, but i still hold the belief that it’s not necessary for our pf to be a guy who stands outside and does nothing inside on offense.

That's the average of all players who played 15 mpg, including guys who played a single game. If you take that up to 20mpg, the number of 3PA/gm increases to 4.42. If you change it to guys who started more than 30 games, the number increases to 4.91 3PA/gm.

Increase it to guys who started more than 40 games, and now the number is 4.7 3PA/gm.

I don't think 3P shooting is overblown at all. The only PFs who started more than 40 games who averaged under 4 3PA/gm: Jaden McDaniels (3.7), Tobias Harris (3.62), Draymond (3.62), Evan Mobley (3.24), Aaron Gordon (3.37), AD (2.43), Giannis (0.94). Sochan is at 1.7... so unless he's AD or Giannis, that isn't going to cut it as a starter in this league.

[Dejounte]

That's the average of all players who played 15 mpg, including guys who played a single game. If you take that up to 20mpg, the number of 3PA/gm increases to 4.42. If you change it to guys who started more than 30 games, the number increases to 4.91 3PA/gm.

Increase it to guys who started more than 40 games, and now the number is 4.7 3PA/gm.

I don't think 3P shooting is overblown at all. The only PFs who started more than 40 games who averaged under 4 3PA/gm: Jaden McDaniels (3.7), Tobias Harris (3.62), Draymond (3.62), Evan Mobley (3.24), Aaron Gordon (3.37), AD (2.43), Giannis (0.94). Sochan is at 1.7... so unless he's AD or Giannis, that isn't going to cut it as a starter in this league.
I look at those guys you listed and one thing they have in common is that they’re on winning teams. I didnt really make the post to defend Sochan’s low 3pa, but moreso to point out that going for a volume shooting one (6+) isnt necessary. If Sochan can up his 3pa to 3-4 and make them at a good rate, great. If the Spurs go for someone who averaged 3-4 3pa and made them at a decent rate, great. I just dont think they need to pursue someone who is a true specialist, that’s all.

[scott]

I look at those guys you listed and one thing they have in common is that they’re on winning teams. I didnt really make the post to defend Sochan’s low 3pa, but moreso to point out that going for a volume shooting one (6+) isnt necessary. If Sochan can up his 3pa to 3-4 and make them at a good rate, great. If the Spurs go for someone who averaged 3-4 3pa and made them at a decent rate, great. I just dont think they need to pursue someone who is a true specialist, that’s all.

Agree 6 isn't necessary.

But the difference between 1.7 and 4.7 is more significant that it seems. Over 82 games that's almost 250 more 3PA. It is significant. If Sochan can do it at something like .340 or better, awesome. If not, then he needs to be a bench player.

[Dejounte]

Pfs in the finals (chet, siakam, jdub) - avg 3-4-5 three point attempts - not volume 3 pt shooters

[picnroll]

That's the average of all players who played 15 mpg, including guys who played a single game. If you take that up to 20mpg, the number of 3PA/gm increases to 4.42. If you change it to guys who started more than 30 games, the number increases to 4.91 3PA/gm.

Increase it to guys who started more than 40 games, and now the number is 4.7 3PA/gm.

I don't think 3P shooting is overblown at all. The only PFs who started more than 40 games who averaged under 4 3PA/gm: Jaden McDaniels (3.7), Tobias Harris (3.62), Draymond (3.62), Evan Mobley (3.24), Aaron Gordon (3.37), AD (2.43), Giannis (0.94). Sochan is at 1.7... so unless he's AD or Giannis, that isn't going to cut it as a starter in this league.

I’ll accept the correction, personally still be ok with 3 like the 23-24 season at 33-35% and work from there. His defense hangs with this lower volume 3 point shooters.

[Mnky]

He's young and has time to improve, but I would dispute this. His offensive game in year 3 appeared to regress, other than in his shot diet.

His FG% increased, but only because of a change to his shot diet where the majority of his FGA are within 3 feet of the basket. Hi shooting from any other place on the court has been stagnant or has regressed. Even his FT%, still relying on the "one-hand" gimmick, was a career worst in year 3.

He also has significantly less self-creation ability in year 3, as evidenced by a significant jump up the % of his 2P FG's assisted by others. At this point, Jeremy is nothing more than a cutter/dunker. On one hand, it's a good thing that he's limiting shots he's not effective at, but on the other hand we need someone on the court who can be effective at those other shots. On offense, Sochan just allows the opposing team to put their C on his which results in Wemby being matched up with the opposing SF/PF, players who typically give him more trouble and preventing the opposing team's rim protector to be drawn out, so one advantage Wemby gives us gets neutralized.

https://i.imgur.com/SwF8msw.png
My opinion doesn't mean anything, but I'm still on team "let him prove it" - no need to trade him unless the right deal comes along, but don't extend him and let him earn his next contact going into next summer as an RFA. The worst case scenario is Jeremy hits his highest potential outcomes and we have to pay what a lot of people are suggesting we pay him anyway.

I'm of the mindset that he's finding his shot in a group of players that demand the ball a lot. Like you said, it's better he's finding the shots that work. There's nothing negative about being efficient.
He played with cp3, a super ball dominant player. He played with Wemby. A super ball dominant player. If those two weren't in there, it was Castle who also sports a very high usage rate. I believe his self creation opportunities just cratered due to the high usage players and he adjusted the best he could with taking advantage of the role he was left with.

Basketball is all about finding your shot. You coach to get the easy buckets. You hope your game plan helps you get the easy buckets. Sochan became great at getting the easy buckets. That's way more of a plus than a negative, no matter the spin on the self creation. He's creating with what he's being given. Not saying that's your argument, just saying in general he adapred with a team first mentality in my eyes and did the job no one else wanted to do which was take a back seat and take the leftovers.

And he did well there. You definitely need people who can make shots in the NBA, but man the Spurs are quickly running out of shots to take. They now have a handful of guys who are all going to want their shots. Having players like Sochan are a plus to me in that department. He allows other players to thrive at his own expense on both sides of the ball.

I feel people just focus way too much on things they don't like and never about what he actually brings to the table, which is more than the majority of free agents or trade targets would bring as far as cohesiveness and fitting with Wemby. The reality is if Sochan wasn't part of the Spurs and a player who can defend 1-5 at age 22 came available, spurs would be excited to get him. Just look at what's available out there.

He needs to improve. Without a doubt. Everyone at 22 does. He's doing pretty well for what he's been asked to do. He's clearly being told it's time to shoot. Let's see how he does this season.

[dn0774]

I’d argue that with Sochan it’s not just purely about 3p% or even 3pa’s. His shot needs to look the part and be taken without hesitation. His 3p% being at 31% or whatever it was isn’t the whole story, his shot diet is of the completely wide open not a defender within 10ft variety.

Knocking those down at an improved 35% still probably won’t get him guarded on the perimeter. He needs to get those to like 40% imo before teams will hopefully give up crowding the paint which makes Wemby and our rim pressuring guards life hell.

[rascal]

I’d argue that with Sochan it’s not just purely about 3p% or even 3pa’s. His shot needs to look the part and be taken without hesitation. His 3p% being at 31% or whatever it was isn’t the whole story, his shot diet is of the completely wide open not a defender within 10ft variety.

Knocking those down at an improved 35% still probably won’t get him guarded on the perimeter. He needs to get those to like 40% imo before teams will hopefully give up crowding the paint which makes Wemby and our rim pressuring guards life hell.

It's not only his 3 point%. He has no mid range game. He also can't create shots and can't get past players to the basket and finish. The offense bogs down when he touches the ball away from the basket.
His offensive package is very limited to short cuts to the basket and put backs and dunks open under the basket.

[Trueblood]

He's young and has time to improve, but I would dispute this. His offensive game in year 3 appeared to regress, other than in his shot diet.

His FG% increased, but only because of a change to his shot diet where the majority of his FGA are within 3 feet of the basket. Hi shooting from any other place on the court has been stagnant or has regressed. Even his FT%, still relying on the "one-hand" gimmick, was a career worst in year 3.

He also has significantly less self-creation ability in year 3, as evidenced by a significant jump up the % of his 2P FG's assisted by others. At this point, Jeremy is nothing more than a cutter/dunker. On one hand, it's a good thing that he's limiting shots he's not effective at, but on the other hand we need someone on the court who can be effective at those other shots. On offense, Sochan just allows the opposing team to put their C on his which results in Wemby being matched up with the opposing SF/PF, players who typically give him more trouble and preventing the opposing team's rim protector to be drawn out, so one advantage Wemby gives us gets neutralized.

https://i.imgur.com/SwF8msw.png
My opinion doesn't mean anything, but I'm still on team "let him prove it" - no need to trade him unless the right deal comes along, but don't extend him and let him earn his next contact going into next summer as an RFA. The worst case scenario is Jeremy hits his highest potential outcomes and we have to pay what a lot of people are suggesting we pay him anyway.

Love this take because it’s backed up by numbers and not the eye test. Jeremy isn’t a bad player at all imo, but I don’t think he’s in the best place to find success. Limited players have to be surrounded by other players that compliment their weaknesses. Look at Rodman, rebound king but he was often out of defensive position. They made up for this by having Jordan and Pippen as all NBA defenders. Green is another one who was allowed to focus on defense because his lack of shooting was complimented by being teamed with Steph and Klay.

Sochan is great at what he does, but he’s probably never going to be a competent shooter. So the question is can we surround him with what he lacks or should we look to trade him? One things for sure though, rolling him out with Devin, Keldon, Fox, Castle, and Harper is not going to compliment his skill set at all.

[Knoxxx]

Love this take because it’s backed up by numbers and not the eye test. Jeremy isn’t a bad player at all imo, but I don’t think he’s in the best place to find success. Limited players have to be surrounded by other players that compliment their weaknesses. Look at Rodman, rebound king but he was often out of defensive position. They made up for this by having Jordan and Pippen as all NBA defenders. Green is another one who was allowed to focus on defense because his lack of shooting was complimented by being teamed with Steph and Klay.

Sochan is great at what he does, but he’s probably never going to be a competent shooter. So the question is can we surround him with what he lacks or should we look to trade him? One things for sure though, rolling him out with Devin, Keldon, Fox, Castle, and Harper is not going to compliment his skill set at all.

Right, we’d be penalized for 6 men on the court.

[Trueblood]

Right, we’d be penalized for 6 men on the court.

Ha… Ha… Ha… Yes, I meant all at the same time.

[alex40214]

In year two, he was asked to run the offense. In year three, he guarded fives. Before Chris Paul, the team lacked a quality pick-and-roll handler, limiting his impact as a roll man.
Fans call his growth slow, but he’s quietly improved—his paint finishing rose from 65.9% to 70.7%, showing better touch and shot selection.
He’s also an efficient pick-and-roll big with elite free throw and and-1 rates. link here (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/roll-man?CF=POSS*G*1.5:GP*G*50&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=PERCENTILE)


In the recent postseason that showcased the power of defense-to-offense transition, he has the tools to thrive. He can lock down scorers, crash the boards, push the pace, and exploit unsettled defenses—similar to how Obi Toppin did for the Pacers.
Just a quick reminder of his performance in the start of last season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjmuU5QkB4s

[scott]

One of my favorite articles to come out around this time each year... Keith Smith's estimates of rookie scale extensions.

https://www.spotrac.com/news/_/id/2882/2022-draft-class-rookie-scale-extension-updates-and-projections

Smith sees 4/80 for Sochan, with the last year as a team option. Interestingly, this is the same AAV as he sees for Tari Eason, who is estimating for a 5/100. Maybe this would be a hot take on Spurs talk, but probably shouldn't be, but Eason is probably more valuable than Sochan right now.

Not surprisingly, no extensions forecasted for Blake or Branham.

Edit: he also sees no extension for Jabari Smith, and projects he'll bet on himself as an RFA next year. I'll repeat that I think this is what we should do with Sochan.

[KobesAchilles]

One of my favorite articles to come out around this time each year... Keith Smith's estimates of rookie scale extensions.

https://www.spotrac.com/news/_/id/2882/2022-draft-class-rookie-scale-extension-updates-and-projections

Smith sees 4/80 for Sochan, with the last year as a team option. Interestingly, this is the same AAV as he sees for Tari Eason, who is estimating for a 5/100. Maybe this would be a hot take on Spurs talk, but probably shouldn't be, but Eason is probably more valuable than Sochan right now.

Not surprisingly, no extensions forecasted for Blake or Branham.

Edit: he also sees no extension for Jabari Smith, and projects he'll bet on himself as an RFA next year. I'll repeat that I think this is what we should do with Sochan.
So Houston doesn’t value Smith that much then according to this guy. Interesting…

Also Sochan shouldn’t get anything more than the MLE. It’s the most amount of money another team can offer him and really there’s zero reason to bid against ourselves and raise his price. But I am in agreement that Sochan should be on a prove it deal. I want contract year Sochan.

[TimmyBuckets]

Please just learn how to shoot. Get that 28% on threes to 35 at least somehow please. He's such a great defender, finisher, and all-around dawg. He just needs to not shoot like a dweeb.

[MannyIsGod]

One of my favorite articles to come out around this time each year... Keith Smith's estimates of rookie scale extensions.

https://www.spotrac.com/news/_/id/2882/2022-draft-class-rookie-scale-extension-updates-and-projections

Smith sees 4/80 for Sochan, with the last year as a team option. Interestingly, this is the same AAV as he sees for Tari Eason, who is estimating for a 5/100. Maybe this would be a hot take on Spurs talk, but probably shouldn't be, but Eason is probably more valuable than Sochan right now.

Not surprisingly, no extensions forecasted for Blake or Branham.

Edit: he also sees no extension for Jabari Smith, and projects he'll bet on himself as an RFA next year. I'll repeat that I think this is what we should do with Sochan.

So they refused to trade him to the Suns for Durant but he's not going to sign an extension? I don't know, if that is really the case seems like they would have gladly moved him.

I'd be fine with an extensino to Sochan. He's unlikely to torpedo he's value. But I would rather do it with him on discount.

[mystargtr34]

4/$70M is ok I think. Little bit more than the MLE to dissuade him going elsewhere.

[scott]

So they refused to trade him to the Suns for Durant but he's not going to sign an extension? I don't know, if that is really the case seems like they would have gladly moved him.

I'd be fine with an extensino to Sochan. He's unlikely to torpedo he's value. But I would rather do it with him on discount.

Yeah, the logic is a little wonky - but I could see Houston letting Jabari have a prove it year and still being able to control him as an RFA. That will be a very interesting one to watch.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

So Houston doesn’t value Smith that much then according to this guy. Interesting…

Also Sochan shouldn’t get anything more than the MLE. It’s the most amount of money another team can offer him and really there’s zero reason to bid against ourselves and raise his price. But I am in agreement that Sochan should be on a prove it deal. I want contract year Sochan.

It’s not true that other teams can only offer him the MLE. Some team can offer him the max if they feel like it.

The proposed 4/80 is slightly above MLE money, considering the cap increase in the following seasons. I find it to be about right if they believe in him. This one is definitely going to the last seconds in october but I could see the Spurs holding off if his agent demands more.

[RC_Drunkford]

15 million per year should be the max they offer him tbh. Anything above that is a huge overpay. At least he's shooting contested jumpers in the gym now. I'm really curious how these workouts translate to games.

[venitian navigator]

15 million per year should be the max they offer him tbh. Anything above that is a huge overpay. At least he's shooting contested jumpers in the gym now. I'm really curious how these workouts translate to games.

Agree and considering its above the actual mle I dont find it disrespectful...KJ and Vassell both were coming from their best season when given their contracts, Sochan is coming from a just decent improving season with still obvious major flaws. Also in perspective, without major shooting improvements, his role is gonna become 9th to 10th man. Bryant, just off the gate, has already more starting forward skills than him and is gonna receive less then him for at least 4 years... 4 years 60 millions is affordable for the team, compatible with his actual and future role, and more than acceptable, actually, for him...at 27 YO if the improvements will be there he will receive his deserved bigger contract. But his actual market value is no more than the MLE number, possible improvements included...if he wants to bet on himself he's naturally free to do it but his style of play is bodyrisk one...so the bet for him would be a strong one.

[picnroll]

Sochan plays in the 2025 EuroBasket tournament with 5 games in the group stage from Aug 28 to Sept 4, games against Slovenia, Iceland, Israel, France and Belgium. That could provide an early indicator if Sochan’s work has paid off.

[Pauleta14]

Of course it can be quantified. It would be called offensive rating, and his horrible outside shooting already addressed it. His lack of shooting crowds the spacing and the offence bogs down. You can go on and on about how sochan is somehow the rare player who’s plays absolutely mismatches with every stat you throw at him. I can see a few stats here and there being off, things happen, but when multiple stats tell the same story, perhaps the stats aren’t wrong in the first place.

And :lol about causation and correlation again, pray tell how a player being on the court leading to certain individual numbers be correlation ? Since you are such an expert in stats that you never use it, I’d love to hear your perspective on how individual numbers just so happens to be the way they are.

Finally, you don’t know how social media short clips can cherry pick? Players have hundreds of plays every game, it o my takes a few to go viral for people to form a strong opinion. Only AI can do it? I’m not sure why this has to be explained, for someone who talks so condescendingly to everyone on the forum and act as someone who is so authoritative, this is just purely shocking.

You keep trying to convince us we didn't see what we saw smh

You could be working for the Israeli government with such an insane mindset :lol

[Pauleta14]

In year two, he was asked to run the offense. In year three, he guarded fives. Before Chris Paul, the team lacked a quality pick-and-roll handler, limiting his impact as a roll man.
Fans call his growth slow, but he’s quietly improved—his paint finishing rose from 65.9% to 70.7%, showing better touch and shot selection.
He’s also an efficient pick-and-roll big with elite free throw and and-1 rates. link here (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/roll-man?CF=POSS*G*1.5:GP*G*50&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=D&sort=PERCENTILE)


In the recent postseason that showcased the power of defense-to-offense transition, he has the tools to thrive. He can lock down scorers, crash the boards, push the pace, and exploit unsettled defenses—similar to how Obi Toppin did for the Pacers.
Just a quick reminder of his performance in the start of last season:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjmuU5QkB4s

You guys have no shame keeping pushing this re-writing history BS narrative

He played the point 1 month! It was over at the start of December and last season Mitch tried to use him at the 5 for a few games only, JDub is smaller and has shown for Okc that you can survive it with a decent BBIQ and fundamentals, things that Sochan lacks

[KobesAchilles]

It’s not true that other teams can only offer him the MLE. Some team can offer him the max if they feel like it.

The proposed 4/80 is slightly above MLE money, considering the cap increase in the following seasons. I find it to be about right if they believe in him. This one is definitely going to the last seconds in october but I could see the Spurs holding off if his agent demands more.
I mean they could offer him the max sure. But realistically what team is going to waste a max salary on Sochan. Think realistically and find me that team that’s going to offer a bench player a max contract. 90% of the teams can offer him the MLE. 5 can offer him more. Let him find those teams and see if they will offer him more. If not then just give him what the other 90% of teams can give him which is the MLE.

Also what is there to believe in? You know what would make me believe in his new shot? Him getting rid of his stupid one hand free throw and shooting them two handed with his new form. But he can’t shoot with his new form so he won’t.

[Ice009]

Sochan plays in the 2025 EuroBasket tournament with 5 games in the group stage from Aug 28 to Sept 4, games against Slovenia, Iceland, Israel, France and Belgium. That could provide an early indicator if Sochan’s work has paid off.

This will be a good little glimpse into it. Thanks for reminding us. Would definitely want to see how it translates.

[Raven]

Sochan plays in the 2025 EuroBasket tournament with 5 games in the group stage from Aug 28 to Sept 4, games against Slovenia, Iceland, Israel, France and Belgium. That could provide an early indicator if Sochan’s work has paid off.

nah, it's too different what he's asked to do.

[RC_Drunkford]

Sochan should get something similar to this dude tbh. Will probably still get a lot more, but this is a fair comparison in my book. Williams is just on a better team, so he plays less minutes.

1939334136025481596

[scott]

I’m as anxious to see what happens with this extension as I am with the rest of offseason for the Spurs.

At the time of Keldon and Vassell extensions (both players who showed more than Sochan at this stage), everyone wanted to talk about what bargains they were… but Keldon’s deal is only acceptable now because it’s almost over, and Devin’s is being perceived more and more of an overpay. Will Sochan complete the Friendship era contract trifecta?

At least we don’t have Primo’s extension to worry about.

[ambchang]

You keep trying to convince us we didn't see what we saw smh

You could be working for the Israeli government with such an insane mindset :lol

So I came in and showed numbers, you went back to your eye tests.

When challenged with showing ANY numbers, you pull the correlation vs causation garbage without showing any numbers that can show causation nor correlation.

Then you threw out the woman thing, thinking it was an insult only to be laughed at.

Now you are saying what you see represents more than what you see with the mythical “we” saw. Who’s “we”?

Then to cap it off, you are pulling politics in this as if anyone who doesn’t agree with you is committing some level of crime against humanity.

All this, and still no backup.

Really, are you so full of yourself that you think you represent more than one person, or are you sexually ambiguous and identify as we/us? Given it’s you who thinks calling someone a woman is an insult, I’m guessing the former.

Speaking of which, did you call your mother and tell her you think she’s inferior to you?

[TimmyBuckets]

This dumbass' goofy shooting form is messing up the entire team. I just hope he practiced his shooting in between blazing all summer.

[cutewizard]

This shall be the testing year for the Polish Python, Sochan , hahahaha

[Agloco]

terrible

I didn’t say it was great. It is what it is though. Someone out there is going to offer him 20 per.

[bdictjames]

I didn’t say it was great. It is what it is though. Someone out there is going to offer him 20 per.
How much to bet that no one will offer him that money? (I'm not a betting person - more for bragging rights) Lol.

[Agloco]

How much to bet that no one will offer him that money? (I'm not a betting person - more for bragging rights) Lol.

Admittedly I am projecting a bit. Sochan was essentially robbed of a whole season with the Point Sochan debacle. I definitely think we will get a vastly improved version of him this year, enough to open some wallets. I’d stop short of placing a bet at this point though. ��

[bdictjames]

Admittedly I am projecting a bit. Sochan was essentially robbed of a whole season with the Point Sochan debacle. I definitely think we will get a vastly improved version of him this year, enough to open some wallets. I’d stop short of placing a bet at this point though. ��
Hopefully. It will only be good for the Spurs. I think we should temper our expectations. Players generally don't go from below average offensively to offensive stars in 1 season. I see the upside, but just like Vassell, it seems more of an optimist's stretch than the reality. But we will see! He's a likeable player for sure, and I think that factor clouds people's perceptions of him - at times for the worse, I think.

[TimmyBuckets]

Didn't see this in the thread, but you can delete if it's in here.

Yea yea *insert Simmons workout joke here*blah blah I know, but looking a lot smoother!



https://www.youtube.com/shorts/kSTw2hLPrJI


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sXqhh_VUt8o

[LeBowen]

Stars have alligned for this guy, he's in a perfect situation to be a core member of a top contender for many years...if he learns to shoot.

He's very good defensively, good enough rebounder on both ends of the floor, all he needs to do is to develop something that resembles a reliable jumpshot and he'd have more or less guaranteed starting spot for many years to come.
But he's made no progress in 3 years and I'll stay pessimistic until proven otherwise.

[Seventyniner]

Stars have alligned for this guy, he's in a perfect situation to be a core member of a top contender for many years...if he learns to shoot.

He's very good defensively, good enough rebounder on both ends of the floor, all he needs to do is to develop something that resembles a reliable jumpshot and he'd have more or less guaranteed starting spot for many years to come.
But he's made no progress in 3 years and I'll stay pessimistic until proven otherwise.

I was with you until the end. Sochan was noticeably better in year 3 than in years 1-2.

[LeBowen]

I was with you until the end. Sochan was noticeably better in year 3 than in years 1-2.

3pt shooting progress, sorry if you misunderstood.

[Seventyniner]

3pt shooting progress, sorry if you misunderstood.

:bobo you're right, I thought it was a blanket statement.

[ambchang]

Sochan does have to improve on team defence as well. He is a very good perimeter wing defender, having the speed and strength to contest some of the best wings in the league but he does tend to over commit to his man. How much is because of him and how much is because of the game plan I’m not sure. Will have to observe more this year.

[Raven]

they are seemingly working on his 3 pointer so much, you have to wonder if he's going to spend his year missing freebies at the rim

[ace3g]

Poland NT Eurobasket 2025 group play schedule:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gu47WV1XIAEab_u?format=png&name=900x900

[scott]

Every time this thread gets bumped my heart skips a beat thinking it might be extension news

[LeBowen]

Every time this thread gets bumped my heart skips a beat thinking it might be extension news

I came in for another workout video and was left disappointed.

[BatManu20]

1940886984697794982

[mystargtr34]

Contract year Sochan incoming

[LeBowen]

That's more like it. :lol

I really don't want these videos to give me hope. He'd be a perfect long-term PF if he could get to let's say 33% on 4 attempts per game.
But if we see any signs of hesitation in situations when he needs to let it fly, he should be traded right away because we can't have players afraid of shooting the ball on the roster.

[sfernald]

wtf he looks like Ray Allen out there!

[Splits]

Hopefully we can keep that waistband thing on him during games and Mitch can control him. Last season he looked like he was shooting that medicine ball, perhaps he uses the actual basketball this season?

[John B]

1940886984697794982

I’m optimistic that the reason the FO has not moved on any trade like John Collins is because Sochan has shown significant progress.

[rankingtear]

sochan going to be legit next year tbh. they should extend him now. if that bum jabari got 122 mil sochan should get the same.

[LeBowen]

sochan going to be legit next year tbh. they should extend him now. if that bum jabari got 122 mil sochan should get the same.

That bum is shooting 34% from 3pt on 5 attempts per game over his 3 seasons in the league.

[rankingtear]

That bum is shooting 34% from 3pt on 5 attempts per game over his 3 seasons in the league.

Yikes. I did not know it was that bad. Plus he can't dribble or guard anybody. And he is the most generic looking player in the league. Wtf was HOU thinking.

[Splits]

is because Sochan has shown significant progress.

:lmao

[CGD]

I’m optimistic that the reason the FO has not moved on any trade like John Collins is because Sochan has shown significant progress.

Or because Collins is washed up, and can be had later this year when he’s bought out?

[John B]

Or because Collins is washed up, and can be had later this year when he’s bought out?

Maybe. But I’m referring more on the PF position in general. I myself has been expecting the FO to trade for a suitable stretch big, but it’s the 4th day and still none. I’m hoping the FO has seen Sochan improved enough to finally fill that 4 position. Already he is an above average defender. If he can improve his shooting, work on his ball handling to attack the rim, or pass in traffic, the Spurs running game would be tough to defend. Just being an optimistic fan here.