Spurs trade ideas

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Spurs have something like 5 second round picks in 2026. What could they do with it?
Could they just exchange some of them for second round pick in another futur draft?

We should use two or 3 of them + #38 to trade up to low 20s to get Raynaud.

Use another two + Keldon for John Collins.

[Chinook]

Spurs have something like 5 second round picks in 2026. What could they do with it?
Could they just exchange some of them for second round pick in another futur draft?

I count four seconds in 2026, 1 in 2027, likely 3 in 2028 (with a fourth if Boston wins the lotto that year), 3 in 2029, 2 in 2030 and 2 in 2031.

If the Spurs trade 14 for something, I'd rather the team use some of those future seconds to move back into the first from 38. There are a lot of teams bereft of future seconds, so the Spurs should be able to find a taker. They did a great job of trading away their extra picks before the draft this year, so I think they'll find a way to do it again next year.

[DPG21920]

I count four seconds in 2026, 1 in 2027, likely 3 in 2028 (with a fourth if Boston wins the lotto that year), 3 in 2029, 2 in 2030 and 2 in 2031.

If the Spurs trade 14 for something, I'd rather the team use some of those future seconds to move back into the first from 38. There are a lot of teams bereft of future seconds, so the Spurs should be able to find a taker. They did a great job of trading away their extra picks before the draft this year, so I think they'll find a way to do it again next year.

Brooklyn clearly would be a partner here one would think…

[Bruno]

What would you want to see, Bruno?

And is your primary concern running back the current depth on the team (eg Devin/Keldon)?

Aside of Spurs drafting Harper at #2, I don't really have a strong opinion on what Wright should do this summer.

Just to give some random ideas: at #14, I quite like Carter Bryant, PJ Washington seems to be a good trade target and signing a backup center like Capela with the MLE would be fine.

Right now, my primary concern with the team is Vassell. I don't know what is his current trade value. I don't know how this value will hold with his future role next season (playing SF and being the 4th offensive option on the court most of the time). Vassell has $106M left on his contract, Spurs could end up being trapped with him if they keep him for too long.

[Kevin]

Aside of Spurs drafting Harper at #2, I don't really have a strong opinion on what Wright should do this summer.

Just to give some random ideas: at #14, I quite like Carter Bryant, PJ Washington seems to be a good trade target and signing a backup center like Capela with the MLE would be fine.

Right now, my primary concern with the team is Vassell. I don't know what is his current trade value. I don't know how this value will hold with his future role next season (playing SF and being the 4th offensive option on the court most of the time). Vassell has $106M left on his contract, Spurs could end up being trapped with him if they keep him for too long.

I see Dev as a neutral value asset. Package him and the 14 for John Collins or some other PF with matching salary.

[Ariel]

I count four seconds in 2026, 1 in 2027, likely 3 in 2028 (with a fourth if Boston wins the lotto that year), 3 in 2029, 2 in 2030 and 2 in 2031.

If the Spurs trade 14 for something, I'd rather the team use some of those future seconds to move back into the first from 38. There are a lot of teams bereft of future seconds, so the Spurs should be able to find a taker. They did a great job of trading away their extra picks before the draft this year, so I think they'll find a way to do it again next year.
I agree, there are many interesting prospects in the mid 20s to mid 30s going by ESPN mock, which is usually the most reliable resource for this kind of projections. Not perfect, but should be reasonably close. From the 20s on:
23 Nique Clifford
24 Maxime Raynaud
26 Yaxel Lendeborg
27 Rasheer Fleming
28 Noah Penda
30 Cedric Coward
31 Drake Powell
35 Ryan Kalkbrenner
51 Tyrese Proctor
I like a lot of those guys, in terms of profile and fit, most of them are productive, can shoot and defend, and I don't know that there's a huge gap between them and those mocked at 14. Personally, I have Carter Bryant as my first option at 14, but if he goes a couple picks earlier and you need to trade assets to move up, it might be a better idea to just roll over 14 and package a bunch of 2nds plus something else (say, eat a bit of money) and draft a couple of guys from that range. Harper plus whatever combination of 2 guys from that group and I'm pretty happy with that.

[Ariel]

Aside of Spurs drafting Harper at #2, I don't really have a strong opinion on what Wright should do this summer.

Just to give some random ideas: at #14, I quite like Carter Bryant, PJ Washington seems to be a good trade target and signing a backup center like Capela with the MLE would be fine.

Right now, my primary concern with the team is Vassell. I don't know what is his current trade value. I don't know how this value will hold with his future role next season (playing SF and being the 4th offensive option on the court most of the time). Vassell has $106M left on his contract, Spurs could end up being trapped with him if they keep him for too long.
Especially if you are adding Harper to the mix, there won't be that many shots to go around and if Vassell loses any more value his contract will make him hard to move. I'd absolutely explore trade options for 14 + Vassell and/or Keldon

[RC_Drunkford]

What's the relative trade value of PJ Washington vs Collins vs Cam Johnson? I like all 3 for different reasons, but personally prefer PJ just for the simple reason that he seems to consistently shit on OKC and matching up with them is basically my primary point of concern for the foreseeable future. Normally this seems like a bad idea to build your team around matching up with a single team but with their assets, quality of their front office, and the age of their core, I think they are going to be a problem for at least the next 5 if not 10 years.

I'm thinking the same way tbh.

Cam Johnson is an offball shooter. One of the best shooters in the league, but he's too slow to guard 3s and too thin to guard 5s. He can basically only defend PFs. Averages 4.3 rebounds, so in my opinion it's a no because we need somebody who can grab boards.

P.J. Washington is the best perimeter defender out of the 3. Averages 7.8 boards, 1.1 steals, 1.1 blocks. Having a 7'2'' wingspan helps a lot on that end. Shoots 38.1 % from 3 on decent volume and is only 26. Played with Keldon in Kentucky. Would also be my top option at PF for the same reason, he just gives OKC problems.


John Collins is the best player out of the bunch. He's basically a fringe All-Star and outplayed Lauri Markkanen last season. Shot 52.7/40/85 on a tanking Jazz team. Those numbers are nuts. Shoots the corner 3 better than Harrison Barnes (44%).

Averaged 19 PPG 8.2 REB 2 AST 1 STL 1 BLK, but they only played him 40 games because he's too good and would've messed up the tank. He's solid defensively if you play him at the 4. People have tried to do the smallball C stuff and it just doesn't work, because he's not a rim protector (6'11'' wingspan). He is an excellent weakside shotblocker though and extremely athletic.

You have to play him exclusively at PF. You can put him on Giannis, Embiid, etc., but he'll have problems defending guards. I'd say he can guard 3-5. All in all he's basically a net neutral on the defensive end, although he's never been part of a good defensive team, so there might be some untapped potential there.

Offensively he can do everything. Screen and roll, post up smaller defenders, face up slower bigmen, pick & pop, can shoot the 3 and the midrange J, hook shots, alley oops, you name it. The Jazz actually ran a lot of offense through Collins. Using him as a scorer against benches would make a lot of sense for example.

Will Hardy said he's the engine of the team and always brings maximal effort and physicality. Given that Mitch Johnson said in every second interview last year that we didn't match the opponents physicality, he would be a good addition. Military guy, went to Wake Forest, lived on the Virgin Islands, good locker room presence. Became a fan favorite in Utah.

[RC_Drunkford]

Aside of Spurs drafting Harper at #2, I don't really have a strong opinion on what Wright should do this summer.

Just to give some random ideas: at #14, I quite like Carter Bryant, PJ Washington seems to be a good trade target and signing a backup center like Capela with the MLE would be fine.

Right now, my primary concern with the team is Vassell. I don't know what is his current trade value. I don't know how this value will hold with his future role next season (playing SF and being the 4th offensive option on the court most of the time). Vassell has $106M left on his contract, Spurs could end up being trapped with him if they keep him for too long.

I think the general consensus here is:

draft a Forward
draft a backup C in the 2nd round
trade for a starting PF
sign a back up C in free agency

those 4 moves plus adding Harper should be enough. Bring in another veteran for the end of the bench and we're good to go.


I agree, there are many interesting prospects in the mid 20s to mid 30s going by ESPN mock, which is usually the most reliable resource for this kind of projections. Not perfect, but should be reasonably close. From the 20s on:
23 Nique Clifford
24 Maxime Raynaud
26 Yaxel Lendeborg
27 Rasheer Fleming
28 Noah Penda
30 Cedric Coward
31 Drake Powell
35 Ryan Kalkbrenner
51 Tyrese Proctor
I like a lot of those guys, in terms of profile and fit, most of them are productive, can shoot and defend, and I don't know that there's a huge gap between them and those mocked at 14. Personally, I have Carter Bryant as my first option at 14, but if he goes a couple picks earlier and you need to trade assets to move up, it might be a better idea to just roll over 14 and package a bunch of 2nds plus something else (say, eat a bit of money) and draft a couple of guys from that range. Harper plus whatever combination of 2 guys from that group and I'm pretty happy with that.

According to most people the players from 9 to 35 are more or less all in the same tier and it depends more on fit who you go for.

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs have something like 5 second round picks in 2026. What could they do with it?
Could they just exchange some of them for second round pick in another futur draft?

trade multiple 2nds for a late first or a future swap. Plenty of teams are asset depleted and could need a bunch of 2nd round picks to make smaller trades for role players.

[Guru of Nothing]

What's the record for most teams involved in a trade? Is there a 15-teamer deal on the horizon with caps and aprons blooming? With the Spurs crazy cache of flexibility, I get a sense others may come to us offering favors to grease their blockbuster deals. Could be a great opportunity to acquire another first round pick or two for 2028 and 2029 drafts. I like to think we can be of service to the those suffering from desperation and urgency.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Question for CBA experts here: I understand that you can trade into your MLE now. Can that be used as a part of an outgoing salary match? So if incoming player a makes $40 million and you want to trade out player B that makes $25 million can you use the MLE to absorb enough additional salary to make the trade work? Thanks.

[scott]

A not-fun and not-great scenario that could totally happen this summer is Spurs just not doing trades.

Spurs offseason would be something like Harper at #2, a project like Carter Bryant at #14 and using the MLE on a backup center.

After that, Spurs team will look like that:
Starting lineup: Fox/Castle/Vassell/Sochan/Wembanyama
Bench: Harper, Keldon, Champagnie, Barnes and the backup center.

Even if there are legit reasons to doubt on players like Vassell and Sochan, it isn't a that bad team.

This is what I expect to happen for the most part, except instead of a project like Bryant, Spurs just trade $14 for future picks.

ST.com will be fun if this happens.

[scott]

Spurs have something like 5 second round picks in 2026. What could they do with it?
Could they just exchange some of them for second round pick in another futur draft?

The Spurs are always ready to welcome Cash Considerations to the team

[rankingtear]

Question for CBA experts here: I understand that you can trade into your MLE now. Can that be used as a part of an outgoing salary match? So if incoming player a makes $40 million and you want to trade out player B that makes $25 million can you use the MLE to absorb enough additional salary to make the trade work? Thanks.

No.

[rankingtear]

Fire up the trade machine what combinations gets us Cam and Giannis in a BKN-MIL three teamer. BKN has the picks and the thing MIL wants the most cap relief. BKN wants their hometown prospect. This is a high leverage trade.

[jesterbobman]

If you want to get Collins (for the record, I don't), I think it's going to cost a little more than that. My guess would be something around Keldon + #14 for Collins + #21.

Probably right on value. I don't love Collins, but looking for a PF who can rebound, shoot and who seems likely to not cost the world (given team situation), I think he might be the best option. I think PJ is better, and I'd rather have him - but I think PJ is Keldon + 14 + stuff, rather than Keldon and a high value second or two. Given where we are in the build, I think it's worthwhile giving up assets to improve the environment and make a stronger commitment to winning, but I'm not sure if we're good enough to use up high quality fringe assets for better role guys.

[SpursBills]

Honestly if you can get PJ + Gafford for Vassell + undoing the Dallas swap + Boston swap, I'd probably do that as long he's willing to re-up for 20-25 a year. I like a lot of the draft and trade ideas I've seen here.

Fox-Harper
Castle-Champagnie
Barnes-Keldon
PJ-Sochan
Wemby-Gafford

Take whoever you want at 14 - Essengue, Sorber, Carter Bryant, or convert it to two picks and do 2 of Yaxel/WCJ/Kalkbrenner/Fleming/Penda/Thiero/Powell for depth. Let Gafford roll off after a year or re-sign him to something reasonable depending on who you draft. This way there's no pressure on whoever's going 14, and you can bring them along slowly which is my preference anyway since I don't think rookies (and especially teenagers) should have significant roles in a team gunning for the playoffs with certain rare exceptions.

[Chinook]

Question for CBA experts here: I understand that you can trade into your MLE now. Can that be used as a part of an outgoing salary match? So if incoming player a makes $40 million and you want to trade out player B that makes $25 million can you use the MLE to absorb enough additional salary to make the trade work? Thanks.

You can't. It's just like any other trade exception. A player's full contract has to fit inside of it, and it can't be aggregated with any other exception. It can still be used on multiple players, and as far as I know, that can be a mix of signings and trades. It can also be mixed in with other trades so long as the deal can be broken down into separate sub deals that don't violate any rules.

Like for example, the Spurs could trade Johnson, Barnes, Sochan and 14 for Durant and then use the MLE to take in O'Neale. That works so long as the Spurs send in the trade as the players for Durant and the pick for O'Neale via the MLE.

[buttsR4rebounding]

You can't. It's just like any other trade exception. A player's full contract has to fit inside of it, and it can't be aggregated with any other exception. It can still be used on multiple players, and as far as I know, that can be a mix of signings and trades. It can also be mixed in with other trades so long as the deal can be broken down into separate sub deals that don't violate any rules.

Like for example, the Spurs could trade Johnson, Barnes, Sochan and 14 for Durant and then use the MLE to take in O'Neale. That works so long as the Spurs send in the trade as the players for Durant and the pick for O'Neale via the MLE.

Thanks.

[Chinook]

So what about the opposite of what the most folks are talking about? Does anybody have an example of a trade the Spurs could do to gain an asset? We talked about the Spurs using the MLE on Clarke and trading for MPJ. But for example, Branham and Wesley can combine to bring back a player making more than $17 Million next year. Individually, they can return almost $10 Million. It feels like there have to be some contracts out there for players teams want to get rid of but who could be useful bench pieces for a couple of seasons.

[tbdog]

For a Branham and Wesley package, upgrades would be.

Peyton Watson
Wendell Carter
Aaron Wiggins
Caleb Martin
Goga Bitadze
Naji Marshall

[CGD]

Aside of Spurs drafting Harper at #2, I don't really have a strong opinion on what Wright should do this summer.

Just to give some random ideas: at #14, I quite like Carter Bryant, PJ Washington seems to be a good trade target and signing a backup center like Capela with the MLE would be fine.

Right now, my primary concern with the team is Vassell. I don't know what is his current trade value. I don't know how this value will hold with his future role next season (playing SF and being the 4th offensive option on the court most of the time). Vassell has $106M left on his contract, Spurs could end up being trapped with him if they keep him for too long.

100% agree on Devin. He is the biggest question mark for me this offseason.

Personally, I think today he has more value than the average person on this board thinks, but I am concerned it will diminish with a bench role and the addition of Harper and growth of Castle.

[CGD]

So what about the opposite of what the most folks are talking about? Does anybody have an example of a trade the Spurs could do to gain an asset? We talked about the Spurs using the MLE on Clarke and trading for MPJ. But for example, Branham and Wesley can combine to bring back a player making more than $17 Million next year. Individually, they can return almost $10 Million. It feels like there have to be some contracts out there for players teams want to get rid of but who could be useful bench pieces for a couple of seasons.

Aside from Boston, who are the teams in tax hell? I’d start looking there.

[mo7888]

Aside from Boston, who are the teams in tax hell? I’d start looking there.

Phoenix, Minnesota, and Cleveland as currently constructed.

[tbdog]

100% agree on Devin. He is the biggest question mark for me this offseason.

Personally, I think today he has more value than the average person on this board thinks, but I am concerned it will diminish with a bench role and the addition of Harper and growth of Castle.

My issue is a Vassell, imo, from my obs, is that his is a bad at the SF spot, especially on D. He just seems weak on the hips, can't slow down players until help can come. And if the Spurs are going with these three guard rotation, with possibly CP3 or whoever they want to play as their fourth guard like Wesley or Branham, Vassell is exclusively playing the 3. His minutes at the 2 is going to be very rare.

Another concern I have with the Fox/Harper/Castle/Vassall combos - if the spurs are going into season with a 'look and see' vibe. The Spurs could lose value on two of those players.

[Chinook]

Phoenix, Minnesota, and Cleveland as currently constructed.

So the Spurs could save a team a ton of money by taking in a $17-Million player and using a couple of their seconds to get teams to take in Branham and Wesley. Still need a target, but that might be enough savings to earn an unprotected first.

[CGD]

Phoenix, Minnesota, and Cleveland as currently constructed.

In that case, my strategy would be to use one of these teams to improve the quality of my current picks. For example (and not sure if the math aligns), but something like Okoro + 2030FRP for Malaki + 3SRPs.

[mo7888]

So the Spurs could save a team a ton of money by taking in a $17-Million player and using a couple of their seconds to get teams to take in Branham and Wesley. Still need a target, but that might be enough savings to earn an unprotected first.

Absolutely, I looked at those rosters in the context of you suggestion and there's not a lot there in that $17M range. Max Struss would work or you could go smaller like Wesley for Hauser or go bigger like Wesley + Keldon for Porzingis.

[CGD]

My issue is a Vassell, imo, from my obs, is that his is a bad at the SF spot, especially on D. He just seems weak on the hips, can't slow down players until help can come. And if the Spurs are going with these three guard rotation, with possibly CP3 or whoever they want to play as their fourth guard like Wesley or Branham, Vassell is exclusively playing the 3. His minutes at the 2 is going to be very rare.

Another concern I have with the Fox/Harper/Castle/Vassall combos - if the spurs are going into season with a 'look and see' vibe. The Spurs could lose value on two of those players.

I still think there is a 3 way deal that makes a lot of sense involving Garland and Vassel, where the Spurs get stuff from a 3rd team.

Something like:

UTH: Garland + Spurs SRPs
CLE: Vassell + 5
SAS: Collins + future Jazz picks

(For the record, the ship has sailed on Jollins for me, but just an example).

[scott]

I still think there is a 3 way deal that makes a lot of sense involving Garland and Vassel, where the Spurs get stuff from a 3rd team.

Something like:

UTH: Garland + Spurs SRPs
CLE: Vassell + 5
SAS: Collins + future Jazz picks

(For the record, the ship has sailed on Jollins for me, but just an example).

I know this is just an example... but why would Utah want Garland?

I ask this, because I see a lot of scenarios where teams like BKN, UTA, etc. are participating in these hypothetical deals, spending assets to acquire higher end talent or taking on salary... but unless you think they're going to go into the mode of competing, I don't see why they would do this. These teams are more likely to accumulate assets by selling talent, renting cap space or taking on underperforming players than they are to send out assets. In this hypothetical, I can't see why the Jazz would give up 5 and future picks in order to take on Garland... unless you feel they are going to give up on tanking and try to build around Garland and Lauri.

[Ariel]

One thing I'd be interested in is finding potential partners to move up and down from 14.

Moving down seems easier, as there are several teams with multiple picks in the mid to late first or early second round: Nets (19, 26, 27), OKC (15, 24), Orlando (16, 25), Minnesota (17, 31), Charlotte (33, 34). This feels like the more probable scenario, if you don't love the available options you could package 14 and 38 for, say, 19 and 26, or include a couple more second rounders and turn that into 15 and 24 or 16 and 25.

Another (less likely) scenario would be moving up from 14, if someone unexpectedly falls. Say Knueppel is there at 9 or 10, what do you offer the Raptors and Rockets? Maybe you can interest the Raptors in a trade for RJ Barrett, either for Keldon (money savings) or Vassell (if they like him better)? Not really sure what would convince Houston or Portland, though.

[tbdog]

One thing I'd be interested in is finding potential partners to move up and down from 14.

Moving down seems easier, as there are several teams with multiple picks in the mid to late first or early second round: Nets (19, 26, 27), OKC (15, 24), Orlando (16, 25), Minnesota (17, 31), Charlotte (33, 34). This feels like the more probable scenario, if you don't love the available options you could package 14 and 38 for, say, 19 and 26, or include a couple more second rounders and turn that into 15 and 24 or 16 and 25.

Another (less likely) scenario would be moving up from 14, if someone unexpectedly falls. Say Knueppel is there at 9 or 10, what do you offer the Raptors and Rockets? Maybe you can interest the Raptors in a trade for RJ Barrett, either for Keldon (money savings) or Vassell (if they like him better)? Not really sure what would convince Houston or Portland, though.

I would be pissed to take on Barrett. An undersize 3, more of a put the ball on the floor type of scorer. Not a great shooter, no where near like Vassell. I honestly rather have Poeltl back. At least he can play a role.

[Bruno]

Personally, I think today he has more value than the average person on this board thinks

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think that too.

For example, a trade like Vassell and #14 for Anunoby is something I can see happening.

[Ariel]

I would be pissed to take on Barrett. An undersize 3, more of a put the ball on the floor type of scorer. Not a great shooter, no where near like Vassell. I honestly rather have Poeltl back. At least he can play a role.
It's not about Barrett being the answer, it's about getting an asset (moving up in the draft) while getting rid of Vassell's contract that is 4 years instead of Barrett's 2 at about the same money.

[RC_Drunkford]

So the Spurs could save a team a ton of money by taking in a $17-Million player and using a couple of their seconds to get teams to take in Branham and Wesley. Still need a target, but that might be enough savings to earn an unprotected first.

Sam Hauser
DiVincenzo
Cody Martin
Dean Wade
Isaac Okoro

are all players I could see us absorb to help teams shed salary. I doubt we'll get an asset out of it. Maybe a couple 2nds for Okoro. For Hauser or DiVincenzo we'd probably have to send some out.

[jesterbobman]

Ted Cruz is the other potential players in the realm of shooters - Salary fits, but Phoenix has no path to getting talent in, doubt they're in dumping Grayson Allen mode.

I hadn't thought of Donte, but interesting - cancel the swap on Minnesota's pick in 2031 (its a double swap we'd still (I think) be able to have the Dallas Swap), dump Malaki and Julian. I think that's about the value, and their willingness to do that (given they're in a title contention window), money, and confidence in Terrence Shannon over time.

[RC_Drunkford]

why would you trade Champagnie? His contract is way to good to include him in any trades.

[CGD]

I know this is just an example... but why would Utah want Garland?

I ask this, because I see a lot of scenarios where teams like BKN, UTA, etc. are participating in these hypothetical deals, spending assets to acquire higher end talent or taking on salary... but unless you think they're going to go into the mode of competing, I don't see why they would do this. These teams are more likely to accumulate assets by selling talent, renting cap space or taking on underperforming players than they are to send out assets. In this hypothetical, I can't see why the Jazz would give up 5 and future picks in order to take on Garland... unless you feel they are going to give up on tanking and try to build around Garland and Lauri.

I was just thinking of teams that need a PG. Those two and Orlando are the ones that immediately come to mind. I take the point on Utah. Thought there was that (1) they would pivot to a trade after missing on the draft, (2) so long as Lauri is on the team they’re not completely tanking (or at least they’re hindered by that massive deal), and (3) Garland/Lauri could be decent foundation

[onechance87]

why would you trade Champagnie? His contract is way to good to include him in any trades.

I keep seeing people mention him in trades.He probably our best player that fits perfectly next to wemby,castle,fox and most
likely harper as well.Hes still young as well.

[Guru of Nothing]

It would have to involve something substantial to move Champ, I would hope. He's 23 and still developing and can easily see him establishing himself as a bonafide sniper. I thought he was starting to look a little friskier on the court too as the season came to a close, especially on defense. He absolutely can mature into a Danny Green caliber player.

[CGD]

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think that too.

For example, a trade like Vassell and #14 for Anunoby is something I can see happening.

The teams that need him the most are probably Golden State, Orlando, and Cleveland. I just can’t seem to find a trade that works. Would be easier if Kominga wasn’t so controversial.

[KingKev]

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think that too.

For example, a trade like Vassell and #14 for Anunoby is something I can see happening.

Vassell got good?

[rankingtear]

I like the RJ Barret rumor these are the kind of value you want high level athletes and blue chip dynamic players that is yet to find a role. maybe they buy in and you get an Aaron Gordon dynamic role player for little risk. I think it applies to Devin the same way, skilled players that just needs to scale down. Some ex is Wiggins in GSW. Ayton could that guy i don't know if it is for us though. They did go after Ingram, meaning they won't force it if it is too costly. I really don't like going after the Camara TMIII Herb there is no value. Derrick White is a guy who was having an awful season before BOS traded for him that is value.

[RC_Drunkford]

I don't know why we would want to trade for RJ Barrett. Not that I believe it's real, cause it comes from one random guy on twitter, but he's signed for another 2 years of 28 and 29.5 million.

The only players you could package for him are Devin, Keldon or Barnes + Branham or Wesley. He doesn't shoot nor defend better than Devin. For Keldon or Barnes cool, but I'm not sending out a first round pick for him.

Also not sure how many gay prostitutes are available in San Antonio, since he's into that.

[tbdog]

The Barrett idea is just pointless and is a step back. Spurs could do with an upgrade from Devin at the small forward spot. With a small forward size. And Barrett is not it. He isn't a complimentary player. He kinda needs to be the third best scorer on the team, perhaps even the second best scorer on the team, unless he takes some discount and plays the Keldon role. But if your are paying him the third most on the team, to stand in the corner and get out of the way from fox, Castle or Harper - then it's a waste. It's not his game.

[rankingtear]

let me educate the noobs above, if they are bringing in Scoot 2.0 the only way it works giving everybody on ball reps, mitigating shooting is if they run the 2020-2021 drive and kick offense. What does it need 4 or 5 dribble pass and shoot players. Who played the 4 and had his best season of his career on that offense KJ. Now bigs, spot up wings become record scratch players on that offense, lack of passing or driving etc. Once i acquire barret i ask him to put on 5+lbs and he would play the 4. He has the athleticism to put on more weight. Then you solve your roster problem.

[RC_Drunkford]

let me educate the noobs above, if they are bringing in Scoot 2.0 the only way it works giving everybody on ball reps, mitigating shooting is if they run the 2020-2021 drive and kick offense. What does it need 4 or 5 dribble pass and shoot players. Who played the 4 and had his best season of his career on that offense KJ. Now bigs, spot up wings become record scratch players on that offense, lack of passing or driving etc. Once i acquire barret i ask him to put on 5+lbs and he would play the 4. He has the athleticism to put on more weight. Then you solve your roster problem.

:lol thinking a 6'5'' guy can play PF and guard Chet Holmgren, Aaron Gordon, JJJ, etc.

[rankingtear]

:lol thinking a 6'5'' guy can play PF and guard Chet Holmgren, Aaron Gordon, JJJ, etc.

. that is why i prefer trading scoot for the greak freak. if you are drafting scoot barret is way cheaper than Durant.

[LeBowen]

:lol thinking a 6'5'' guy can play PF and guard Chet Holmgren, Aaron Gordon, JJJ, etc.

He's actually THE biggest retard on this forum.

[RC_Drunkford]

. that is why i prefer trading scoot for the greak freak. if you are drafting scoot barret is way cheaper than Durant.

:lmao

[rankingtear]

He's actually THE biggest retard on this forum.

Why are non vanilla takes retarded.

[rankingtear]

:lmao

Why do people reply with an emoji.

[Dejounte]

I can’t name a single bucket getter coming off the bench from the current roster. RJ would be a good acquisition to replace Vassell.

[Ice009]

I don't know why we would want to trade for RJ Barrett. Not that I believe it's real, cause it comes from one random guy on twitter, but he's signed for another 2 years of 28 and 29.5 million.

The only players you could package for him are Devin, Keldon or Barnes + Branham or Wesley. He doesn't shoot nor defend better than Devin. For Keldon or Barnes cool, but I'm not sending out a first round pick for him.

Also not sure how many gay prostitutes are available in San Antonio, since he's into that.

What's the prostitute thing? First I've heard of it, but then again, never really followed Toronto at all. I doubt the Spurs would ever trade for him if that is true, or is it just some kind of unfounded rumour?

[rankingtear]

I can’t name a single bucket getter coming off the bench from the current roster. RJ would be a good acquisition to replace Vassell.

See, the guy who discovered Franz Wagner likes RJ too.

[RC_Drunkford]

I can’t name a single bucket getter coming off the bench from the current roster. RJ would be a good acquisition to replace Vassell.

the problem is he's a worse 3-point shooter and defender than Devin. He's also a below 70% freethrow shooter. It seems like Toronto just wants to get rid of his contract and is not expecting a first in return. So if you can get him for a lowball offer as a 6th man, maybe. But then you could also just flat out sign Kuminga for half the money.


What's the prostitute thing? First I've heard of it, but then again, never really followed Toronto at all. I doubt the Spurs would ever trade for him if that is true, or is it just some kind of unfounded rumour?

well there was some dude online who said RJ owes him 17k for fucking him and named his accountant, showed Cash App payments etc. and then some folks followed it up with a fake snapchat account and he wanted to meet up and paid them too...

[RC_Drunkford]

League sources say Dallas is expected to at least explore whether there are any feasible trade pathways to Boston’s Jrue Holiday — complicated as that would likely be given the three years and $104 million still left on Holiday’s contract — while also maintaining an interest in a far more reasonable trade target as we’ve discussed on the DLLS Mavs podcast: Lonzo Ball…Another name to monitor for Dallas: Chris Paul. (https://marcstein.substack.com/) The free agent-to-be just turned 40 on May 6, but Paul also just played (and started) 82 games in his maiden season as a San Antonio Spur.
19 mins ago (https://hoopshype.com/rumor/mavericks-have-trade-interest-in-jrue-holiday-lonzo-ball-and-chris-paul/) – via Marc Stein @ marcstein.substack.com (https://marcstein.substack.com/)



I assume they can sign CP3 straight up, but is there any scenario where we could sign and trade him for PJ or Gafford?

[Ice009]

the problem is he's a worse 3-point shooter and defender than Devin. He's also a below 70% freethrow shooter. It seems like Toronto just wants to get rid of his contract and is not expecting a first in return. So if you can get him for a lowball offer as a 6th man, maybe. But then you could also just flat out sign Kuminga for half the money.



well there was some dude online who said RJ owes him 17k for fucking him and named his accountant, showed Cash App payments etc. and then some folks followed it up with a fake snapchat account and he wanted to meet up and paid them too...

How much money is Kuminga likely to command?

Wow, never heard of that rumor. When you say some people followed it up, do you mean they made a fake account and RJ was trying to meetup with them too, or was it the guy that says RJ owed money to him that was trying to meet up with the fake account people? I'd look it up myself, but not really something I want to lookup.

[RC_Drunkford]

Wow, never heard of that rumor. When you say some people followed it up, do you mean they made a fake account and RJ was trying to meetup with them too?

Yup, that part. Kuminga should be gettable for the MLE, 14 million.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Yup, that part. Kuminga should be gettable for the MLE, 14 million.

This would be an all time bag fumbling after rejecting $150 mil from GS last summer. Dennis Shroeder-esque.

At MLE I expect GS to match, even if Kerr hates him. Just to save face if nothing else.

Probably a sign and trade candidate for a dumb team like Chicago or Sacramento.

[RC_Drunkford]

This would be an all time bag fumbling after rejecting $150 mil from GS last summer. Dennis Shroeder-esque.

At MLE I expect GS to match, even if Kerr hates him. Just to save face if nothing else.

Probably a sign and trade candidate for a dumb team like Chicago or Sacramento.

Golden State wants to sign and trade him, but there is no team offering him that type of contract. MLE money or maybe slightly over the MLE is the max amount he'll get. Only Brooklyn has enough cap space and reports say they don't want him.

[BatManu20]

Doubt there's any truth whatsoever to this but posting anyways for shits and gigs.

1926736188951474509

[FlAVaK]

He's actually THE biggest retard on this forum.

This title will forever belong to ducks.

[kobyz]

Fox for Pj Washington and Max Christie

[RC_Drunkford]

Doubt there's any truth whatsoever to this but posting anyways for shits and gigs.

1926736188951474509

apparently this is the same guy who called the Ingram to the Raptors trade

[LeBowen]

apparently this is the same guy who called the Ingram to the Raptors trade

We're getting Devin and Keldon in one player!

[CorrectCrusader]

RJ is an interesting player for us, I'm not sure how I'd feel about him on his current contract. Another problem is what it'll take to get him. Keldon + Vassell for RJ straight up enough? Even then I'm not sure I want that lol

[scott]

We're getting Devin and Keldon in one player!

Hear me out...

If you think Devin needs to go to the bench based on how the rest of the team is going to come together after drafting Harper... Devin for RJ wouldn't be a terrible move. RJ would be a good 6th man scorer (just like Devin would). Their salaries are about the same, but RJ saves you two years.

This isn't the kind of move that would get too many people excited... but it wouldn't be a terrible one, IMO.

With that said, I'm not sure why TOR does this. They have a logjam of this kind of player, and swapping RJ for Devin just ties up two more years of salary for them. I suppose it does give them more shooting... but are they looking to give Dick/Walter minutes to Devin? I get why TOR would be interested in moving off RJ... but certainly not to add another SG with a similar, but longer, contract.

[DPG21920]

The salary floor is definitely an interesting wrinkle, but they do have a couple of RFAs who they are likely to extend (Cam Thomas, Zaire Williams, Dayron Sharpe) and my guess is that if they don't get free agents they'll look to rent out their cap space (much like we did) which means getting assets, not sending them out.

I think a more realistic trade would be Devin + 14 for Cam Johnson... but I don't think I do that if I'm the Spurs. I rate Devin and Cam about equally and while Cam is a better fit for us, I'm not paying a FRP for a better fit.

If Dev for 19 + 27 were on the table, I'd do it and then look to flip those picks for future assets, but I'm thinking it might be hard to do so. I think we wouldn't have much leverage in trying to get out of the excess picks because opposing teams know we aren't taking 4 FRPs (and they probably know we might not even want to make 2). I think the same is going to be true with BKN, so in that case a team might be able to get one of those last two picks for pretty cheap, relatively speaking... and BKN still has #36 after that as well.

In trying to think of ways to use BKN to offload Devin and get some decent value back... what about:

BKN gets Devin, PG13, #3
PHI gets #8, Cam Johnson
SAS gets #19, Noah Clowney

This fails the trade machine... but I thought BKN could take these guys back into cap space so I'm not sure what's going on there.

I'm also not sure that we are needed for this deal... BKN and PHI could just do this without us

In thinking about it:

How would you feel about 14 + Dev for Cam + 19 + 26

BKY gets the younger guard under contract + the move up into additional lottery pick. Spurs get out of possible guard logjam (if they are taking Harper, and now have Fox, Castle and Harper)

Dev for Cam seems more than fair to me (I value Dev more than Cam due to age and overall upside) and BKY give up pick 26 to move from 19 to 14?

[scott]

RJ is an interesting player for us, I'm not sure how I'd feel about him on his current contract. Another problem is what it'll take to get him. Keldon + Vassell for RJ straight up enough? Even then I'm not sure I want that lol

Devin and RJ have almost identical 2025-26 salaries (27.7 for RJ, 27.0 for Devin). Devin + Keldon would be too much salary.

Remaining salaries for each player:

Devin: 27/27/24.6/27
RJ: 27.7/29.6

[mo7888]

Hear me out...

If you think Devin needs to go to the bench based on how the rest of the team is going to come together after drafting Harper... Devin for RJ wouldn't be a terrible move. RJ would be a good 6th man scorer (just like Devin would). Their salaries are about the same, but RJ saves you two years.

This isn't the kind of move that would get too many people excited... but it wouldn't be a terrible one, IMO.

With that said, I'm not sure why TOR does this. They have a logjam of this kind of player, and swapping RJ for Devin just ties up two more years of salary for them. I suppose it does give them more shooting... but are they looking to give Dick/Walter minutes to Devin? I get why TOR would be interested in moving off RJ... but certainly not to add another SG with a similar, but longer, contract.

Maybe we could get Dick/Walter out of this trade? RJ + Dick/Walter for Devin + Malaki works.

[scott]

In thinking about it:

How would you feel about 14 + Dev for Cam + 19 + 26

BKY gets the younger guard under contract + the move up into additional lottery pick. Spurs get out of possible guard logjam (if they are taking Harper, and now have Fox, Castle and Harper)

Dev for Cam seems more than fair to me (I value Dev more than Cam due to age and overall upside) and BKY give up pick 26 to move from 19 to 14?

I would personally do it, but I'm not sure the Spurs would.

Reasons I would do it:

-I rate Devin and Cam about equally (ignoring age. I think when you factor age in - you have to give Devin the nod), but Cam fits better in our roster and saves us long term money.
-I like the back half of this first round quite a bit... so I would naturally want two bites in this range rather than just the one at 14.

Reasons I don't think the Spurs would do it:

-I just have a hard time seeing them adding 3 guaranteed contracts in this draft. There is room on the roster for it, I just can't see the Spurs doing it
-They probably feel they can get better value for Devin (and I don't necessarily disagree). I'm a "Devin hater" but I do think his value is likely higher than we like to think around here (although there are probably a limited number of teams who would be interested)

This is an interesting scenario though. Brooklyn clearly needs to try and consolidate some of these picks and moving up makes sense for them. They could also maybe view this as an opportunity to trade out of some of these picks and add future picks though.

At the end of the day, is Sean Marks still going to overrate Cam's market? No one is giving up two premium FRPs for this guy like they want.

[scott]

Maybe we could get Dick/Walter out of this trade? RJ + Dick/Walter for Devin + Malaki works.

Are we adding draft capital? Or do we think TOR is just that high on Vassell? What is TOR's motivation for this?

And then aren't we just creating more of a guard logjam? I don't see either of Dick or Walter as capable of being viable option at SF. I'm a fan of Grady. Would have loved to pick him up in a pre-Harper world.

[DPG21920]

I would personally do it, but I'm not sure the Spurs would.

Reasons I would do it:

-I rate Devin and Cam about equally (ignoring age. I think when you factor age in - you have to give Devin the nod), but Cam fits better in our roster and saves us long term money.
-I like the back half of this first round quite a bit... so I would naturally want two bites in this range rather than just the one at 14.

Reasons I don't think the Spurs would do it:

-I just have a hard time seeing them adding 3 guaranteed contracts in this draft. There is room on the roster for it, I just can't see the Spurs doing it
-They probably feel they can get better value for Devin (and I don't necessarily disagree). I'm a "Devin hater" but I do think his value is likely higher than we like to think around here (although there are probably a limited number of teams who would be interested)

This is an interesting scenario though. Brooklyn clearly needs to try and consolidate some of these picks and moving up makes sense for them. They could also maybe view this as an opportunity to trade out of some of these picks and add future picks though.

At the end of the day, is Sean Marks still going to overrate Cam's market? No one is giving up two premium FRPs for this guy like they want.

There’s rumors of BKY wanting to move up into another lottery pick if they can’t get into top 3. If that’s true and they can consolidate 2 non-lottery picks for one more lottery that does it and here they get a younger better player for their troubles and its only 2 more years of salary for them which they wont mind since Dev is younger (and better). So whether BKY wants to keep Cam asking price high, I dont see how they wouldn’t view Dev as better than Cam and still getting to hold onto a “tradeable asset” in Dev instead of Cam while moving up into lottery again.

This helps SA now with positions and now SA can trade Barnes hopefully for a future first as well since Cam is here. That allows them to do so now vs having Dev and not being able to trade Barnes if opportunity arises due to roster considerations which makes this trade make more sense for SA IMO

[mo7888]

Are we adding draft capital? Or do we think TOR is just that high on Vassell? What is TOR's motivation for this?

And then aren't we just creating more of a guard logjam? I don't see either of Dick or Walter as capable of being viable option at SF. I'm a fan of Grady. Would have loved to pick him up in a pre-Harper world.

I think ot depends on who is after who. Did Toronto approach us about Devin or did we approach them about RJ? I have a hard time seeing us being the initiator in this situation and if the want Devin and approached us we should be able to acquire an asset.

As for the logjam issue, I think either of those guys could get minutes off the bench with either Castle playing 3 on D. I also think Dick could make Sochan playable because of his shooting.

[Ocotillo]

1926736188951474509

A lot of folks are jumping to the conclusion of Barrett coming here but look at the other teams listed as interested. All of Brian's recent trading buddies. Maybe we end up being part of a facilitator in a deal rather than a Devin for R.J. type of move.

[KingKev]

Don’t understand the speculated interest in Barrett although he is twice the player Vassell is.

[Seventyniner]

A lot of folks are jumping to the conclusion of Barrett coming here but look at the other teams listed as interested. All of Brian's recent trading buddies. Maybe we end up being part of a facilitator in a deal rather than a Devin for R.J. type of move.

I don't like being lumped in with the FOs we keep fleecing. I like your idea of facilitating such a trade much more. Picking up another swap and a useful role player like in the Barnes trade would be awesome.

[CGD]

A lot of folks are jumping to the conclusion of Barrett coming here but look at the other teams listed as interested. All of Brian's recent trading buddies. Maybe we end up being part of a facilitator in a deal rather than a Devin for R.J. type of move.

Astute observation. They could also be using us to drive up the price on the dumb dumbs

[CGD]

ATL: Barrett
TOR: Vassell
SAS: Risacher/Niang

Bring Risacher home

[mo7888]

ATL: Barrett
TOR: Vassell
SAS: Risacher/Niang

Bring Risacher home

I wish Atlanta would do that...

[Chinook]

ATL: Barrett
TOR: Vassell
SAS: Risacher/Niang

Bring Risacher home

There's a thread on RGM for the Spurs trading Castle for Risacher. I don't think the Spurs should do that, but it's far closer than this.

A number of trade ideas on here have assigned Vassell the value of a top-10 pick. It's bonkers that folks can think so highly of him but the Spurs can afford to trade him.

[Degoat]

My main problem with Vassell is it always seems like he plays his best ball in meaningless games, when everyone is healthy and available he doesn’t bring much to the table. I still believe he is a big talent that could be a 3rd option for a contender I just don’t know if that’s ever going to happen for us.


I think he starts at SF next year in a make or break year for him,
Fox
Harper
Vassell
Sochan
Wemby

kinda think Castle is the 6th man

[CGD]

There's a thread on RGM for the Spurs trading Castle for Risacher. I don't think the Spurs should do that, but it's far closer than this.

A number of trade ideas on here have assigned Vassell the value of a top-10 pick. It's bonkers that folks can think so highly of him but the Spurs can afford to trade him.

I was kinda being facetious. I actually liked Risacher in that turdy draft (even as I was head over heels for Castle).

I’m sure you can nonetheless appreciate that there may be other reasons why Vassell would have positive value and still be expendable— not least of which that we are about to draft his replacement. I said this elsewhere: I do think Dev has more value around the league than the average person on ST does. Maybe not the value of this trade, but i don’t see him as salary ballast either like most here seem to.

[CGD]

^ actually an interesting thought exercise: if you were to merge this and last year’s draft, does Zach Risacher go Top 10?

It’s an unfair question since we’re seen a year of the 24 class, but it would be a closer call than we think would be my guess. I think Castle still goes Top 5 though.

[scott]

I was kinda being facetious. I actually liked Risacher in that turdy draft (even as I was head over heels for Castle).

I’m sure you can nonetheless appreciate that there may be other reasons why Vassell would have positive value and still be expendable— not least of which that we are about to draft his replacement. I said this elsewhere: I do think Dev has more value around the league than the average person on ST does. Maybe not the value of this trade, but i don’t see him as salary ballast either like most here seem to.

It's fascinating because Vassell's trade value is either overly inflated by his supporter fans, or massively undervalued by his haters. I'm one of his haters, but I still think he has some value.


^ actually an interesting thought exercise: if you were to merge this and last year’s draft, does Zach Risacher go Top 10?

It’s an unfair question since we’re seen a year of the 24 class, but it would be a closer call than we think would be my guess. I think Castle still goes Top 5 though.

Here is my guess if you blended the two classes and knew what you knew now about the players (which I think is what you're asking)

1. Flagg
2. Harper
3. Castle
4. Sarr
5. Bailey
6. Edgecomb
7. Risacher
8. Tre Johnson
9. Sheppard
10. Knueppel

I saw a thread on Reddit where folks were claiming Harper would go 3rd in a redraft of all the classes since 2019, but I think it would go more like this (drafted players as prospects at the time, not what we know now). The big debate for me is where we think Paolo/Chet/Jabari go.

1. Wemby
2. Zion
3. Flagg
4. Cade
5. Paolo
6. Chet
7. Ja
8. Harper
9. Ant
10. Melo
11. Sarr
12. Scoot
13. Jabari
14. Amen

This feels about right to me... but of course memories can get hazy

[DPG21920]

It's fascinating because Vassell's trade value is either overly inflated by his supporter fans, or massively undervalued by his haters. I'm one of his haters, but I still think he has some value.



Here is my guess if you blended the two classes and knew what you knew now about the players (which I think is what you're asking)

1. Flagg
2. Harper
3. Castle
4. Sarr
5. Bailey
6. Edgecomb
7. Risacher
8. Tre Johnson
9. Sheppard
10. Knueppel

I saw a thread on Reddit where folks were claiming Harper would go 3rd in a redraft of all the classes since 2019, but I think it would go more like this (drafted players as prospects at the time, not what we know now). The big debate for me is where we think Paolo/Chet/Jabari go.

1. Wemby
2. Zion
3. Flagg
4. Cade
5. Paolo
6. Chet
7. Ja
8. Harper
9. Ant
10. Melo
11. Sarr
12. Scoot
13. Jabari
14. Amen

This feels about right to me... but of course memories can get hazy

Ant easily goes over Harper knowing what we know. I would trade pick 2 for Ant easily

[scott]

Ant easily goes over Harper knowing what we know. I would trade pick 2 for Ant easily

Yeah, I'm ranking them not knowing what we know, but how they were viewed at the time... which is why I'm not so sure about Paolo/Chet. There was certainly a lot of talk about Jabari at #1 but I always considered Paolo and Chet to be the clear #1 and #2... but I might have been higher on them than consensus.

[DPG21920]

Yeah, I'm ranking them not knowing what we know, but how they were viewed at the time... which is why I'm not so sure about Paolo/Chet. There was certainly a lot of talk about Jabari at #1 but I always considered Paolo and Chet to be the clear #1 and #2... but I might have been higher on them than consensus.

ahhh I gotcha. I was like dude lol Ant is way too low here lol

[scott]

ahhh I gotcha. I was like dude lol Ant is way too low here lol

Yeah, Ant's gotta be #2 behind Wemby if it's a "what we know now" - right?

[CGD]

^ I like your list, Scott. I’d probably have it as a coin flip between ZR and Tre Johnson. And I don’t think Kon would have been a distant 9th either.

[DPG21920]

Yeah, Ant's gotta be #2 behind Wemby if it's a "what we know now" - right?

Yup. I only read your first list about “knowing what we know now” and glossed over the part you inserted the difference for list 2. I was like Zion at 2??

[CGD]

Another fun list:

Starting at the bottom of the first round of this draft and working up, how far up do you get before a team refuses to trade its FRP (plus matching salary ballast) for Devin?

[RC_Drunkford]

Are we adding draft capital? Or do we think TOR is just that high on Vassell? What is TOR's motivation for this?

And then aren't we just creating more of a guard logjam? I don't see either of Dick or Walter as capable of being viable option at SF. I'm a fan of Grady. Would have loved to pick him up in a pre-Harper world.

I doubt it would be for Devin (if we are even interested). I'd assume it's either Barnes cause he's expiring or maybe even Keldon plus Branham or Wesley. Seems like Toronto just wants to get rid of that salary. That being said the whole deal doesn't make much sense to me, unless you get dude for pennies.

[Ice009]

Yup, that part. Kuminga should be gettable for the MLE, 14 million.

Yeah, right. If RJ Barett is doing that kind of shit, then I don't want him anywhere near the Spurs (even if it means getting off of Devin's remaining years of his contract, I'd rather keep Devin if that were the case). It looks like I am going to have to look this shit up as I see BatManu20 posted a tweet that the Spurs are showing interest in him (not sure if that Cris Davis guy has any real sources or where he heard it from).

As for Kuminga, I wasn't sure what he was looking for. I was vaguely remembering $150M+, but wasn't sure until I read BG_Spurs_Fan mention it in a post above. What a screwup it was turning that amount of money down. Why would he have turned that down? I wonder what he thought he was worth? Did he think the Warriors had no options and they'd have to sign him for a higher amount?


ATL: Barrett
TOR: Vassell
SAS: Risacher/Niang

Bring Risacher home

Why would Atlanta want Barrett over Risacher?


There's a thread on RGM for the Spurs trading Castle for Risacher. I don't think the Spurs should do that, but it's far closer than this.

A number of trade ideas on here have assigned Vassell the value of a top-10 pick. It's bonkers that folks can think so highly of him but the Spurs can afford to trade him.

Who was this proposal by at RGM? Spurs fans (to balance out the roster) or Atlanta fans? I'd never trade Castle for Risacher.

[Chinook]

Who was this proposal by at RGM? Spurs fans (to balance out the roster) or Atlanta fans? I'd never trade Castle for Risacher.

A Dallas fan, actually. It was an AD-to-ATL trade where the Hawks got the Spurs to trade Castle for Risacher to get SA a wing and Dallas a guard.

I wouldn't make the deal, but I could definitely see it being a deal the Spurs could wind up regret not making at some point.

[DPG21920]

In thinking about it:

How would you feel about 14 + Dev for Cam + 19 + 26

BKY gets the younger guard under contract + the move up into additional lottery pick. Spurs get out of possible guard logjam (if they are taking Harper, and now have Fox, Castle and Harper)

Dev for Cam seems more than fair to me (I value Dev more than Cam due to age and overall upside) and BKY give up pick 26 to move from 19 to 14?

1927363905082274265

[mo7888]

1927363905082274265

I'd do that deal

[BacktoBasics]

I'd do that deal

I don't hate it either. Not sure about the Barrett talk though. I really don't value him all that much.

[mo7888]

I don't hate it either. Not sure about the Barrett talk though. I really don't value him all that much.

I'd only take RJ in a deal that give us another asset like Dick/Walter/ or a future unprotected 1st.

[LeBowen]

[Charania] There was mutual interest between the Spurs and Kevin Durant at the trade deadline

Interesting, wouldn't surprise me if Spurs still consider him as an option if the price is low enough.
Suns have no SPRs from 2027 to 2031, my best offer would be Devin, Keldon, Wesley and 5 SRPs.

[mo7888]

Interesting, wouldn't surprise me if Spurs still consider him as an option if the price is low enough.
Suns have no SPRs from 2027 to 2031, my best offer would be Devin, Keldon, Wesley and 5 SRPs.

If he's that cheap you have to do that deal..

[LeBowen]

If he's that cheap you have to do that deal..

He's not, but Suns can't ask for much.
37, expiring contract, already asked out.

I wouldn't even give them #14, tbh.
Maybe I'd include Jeremy instead of Wesley.

[scott]

I doubt it would be for Devin (if we are even interested). I'd assume it's either Barnes cause he's expiring or maybe even Keldon plus Branham or Wesley. Seems like Toronto just wants to get rid of that salary. That being said the whole deal doesn't make much sense to me, unless you get dude for pennies.

Makes sense for TOR to be off RJ's contract... but what would be our incentive to trade Barnes' expiring for RJ's 2 yeas? Doesn't make sense from a basketball or cap logic POV either way. RJ for Devin is the only one that makes sense from our POV (IMO)... but doesn't really make sense for TOR.

I put this one in the "make sure you list San Antonio as an interested party for every player we write about" bucket. Maybe it's an inside joke amongst NBA journos.

[CorrectCrusader]

AVC has us trading Vassell for Collins straight up

[Ariel]

Interesting, wouldn't surprise me if Spurs still consider him as an option if the price is low enough.
Suns have no SPRs from 2027 to 2031, my best offer would be Devin, Keldon, Wesley and 5 SRPs.
That makes no sense for Phoenix, they already have Booker and Beal, they don't need Vassell. Also, 5 SRPs is way too low. For this to happen you probably need to include 14 as well (or at least one future pick), plus find a third team who is willing to give Phoenix something back that they can use now, plus probably Sochan. Is that too much? Yeah, probably, but you're not going to get KD for less, which is why I don't see him on the Spurs.

[rankingtear]

Shams has spoken with Wembananas good to go, Giannis and KD is in play don't be attached to Scoot 2.0.

[LeBowen]

Shams has spoken with Wembananas good to go, Giannis and KD is in play don't be attached to Scoot 2.0.

Retard we didn't give up Castle for Fox and you think we'd give him or #2 up for KD?


That makes no sense for Phoenix, they already have Booker and Beal, they don't need Vassell. Also, 5 SRPs is way too low. For this to happen you probably need to include 14 as well (or at least one future pick), plus find a third team who is willing to give Phoenix something back that they can use now, plus probably Sochan. Is that too much? Yeah, probably, but you're not going to get KD for less, which is why I don't see him on the Spurs.

They can reroute Vassell elsewhere, that's my "I don't want KD, but if the price is that low..." offer.

[Kevin]

Retard we didn't give up Castle for Fox and you think we'd give him or #2 up for KD?



They can reroute Vassell elsewhere, that's my "I don't want KD, but if the price is that low..." offer.

Yeah if the Spurs can get Giannis or KD for 50 cents on the dollars they'll do it. I am not holding my breath for either of them.

More realistically I am really hoping for a John Collins trade.

[Spur4ever]

Vassell
Barnes
#2
for
Cameron Johnson
Claxton
#8

[SpursFan86]

KD is pretty much perfect from a fit standpoint and I think he still has 2-3 years of juice left in the tank. However, I think the asking price will be steeper than what others in here are implying and I’m not sure the Spurs will (nor should) be willing to pay up for him. As great of a fit as he’d be it’s not like he turns us into a contender next year and the future beyond that is pretty murky.

I think Giannis is more likely. Fit is way worse and will require us to give up more but at least with Giannis you’re looking at a likely 3-5 year window.

All this being said, I think both of these trade scenarios are very unlikely. I suspect the Spurs will be a hot name in rumors just based on the assets we have and media wanting to pitch the idea of Wemby+Giannis or Wemby+KD…but I just don’t see SA trying to accelerate our timeline like that.

[rankingtear]

Why are people too attached to Scoot, when best case scenario he is replace Fox in 4-5 years. Him and his agent would ask out way before then, this isn't 2K there are egos and agendas no top lead guard wants to buried for years.

[exstatic]

Vassell
Barnes
#2
for
Cameron Johnson
Claxton
#8

No.

[scott]

Vassell
Barnes
#2
for
Cameron Johnson
Claxton
#8

:vomit:

[Ice009]

Vassell
Barnes
#2
for
Cameron Johnson
Claxton
#8

Aah WTF, no!

[Mal]

Sure. But financially you get to the same place.

I just hope OKC players start to sign deals at discounts. I mean signing for 160mil rather than 190mil, money is so ridicolous in todays NBA

[RC_Drunkford]

1927363905082274265

I assume it's for a higher pick, but if they want 14 for Cam Johnson and 2 late firsts, you do that deal.

1927407362882621523

I'm down to get KD as long as we don't give up a lot and they can work out a reasonable extension that doesn't mess up our cap.

[TD 21]

The only way I could see Durant to the Spurs would be something like this . . .

To Nets: 2, Vassell, (Keldon) Johnson
To Suns: 14, 19, (Cam) Johnson, Claxton
To Spurs: Durant, 8, 26

[vy65]

The only way I could see Durant to the Spurs would be something like this . . .

To Nets: 2, Vassell, (Keldon) Johnson
To Suns: 14, 19, (Cam) Johnson, Claxton
To Spurs: Durant, 8

Then we're not getting KD

[RC_Drunkford]

https://i.ibb.co/4gJ2rc4p/KD-trade.jpg

[vy65]

KD is on a ~$54MM expiring and is going to turn 37 right before the season starts. There is absolutely no love lost between him and the Phoenix front office as he was shopped during last years trade deadline. While KD does have some value still, the idea that he'd be worth a lotto pick + a mid FRP + 2 much younger players with positive value is insane. His market is much closer to what many have alluded to here: 1 FRP (they'd be lucky to get a low lotto pick) matching salary + serviceable players.

[baseline bum]

Vassell
Barnes
#2
for
Cameron Johnson
Claxton
#8

WTF kind of retard proposal is this?

[Manu20]

KD is pretty much perfect from a fit standpoint and I think he still has 2-3 years of juice left in the tank. However, I think the asking price will be steeper than what others in here are implying and I’m not sure the Spurs will (nor should) be willing to pay up for him. As great of a fit as he’d be it’s not like he turns us into a contender next year and the future beyond that is pretty murky.

I think Giannis is more likely. Fit is way worse and will require us to give up more but at least with Giannis you’re looking at a likely 3-5 year window.

All this being said, I think both of these trade scenarios are very unlikely. I suspect the Spurs will be a hot name in rumors just based on the assets we have and media wanting to pitch the idea of Wemby+Giannis or Wemby+KD…but I just don’t see SA trying to accelerate our timeline like that.

Yeah I think KD will cost too much but I do see how he will fit like a glove next to Wemby. I just don't see the Suns trading KD for a substantial loss and there will undoubtably be another team that will overpay for him.

Keldon/Vassell +14/2026 Atlanta pick Swap?

Would you guys do it? I'm dangling the Atlanta pick as the East seems very very weak next year.

[baseline bum]

The only way I could see Durant to the Spurs would be something like this . . .

To Nets: 2, Vassell, (Keldon) Johnson
To Suns: 14, 19, (Cam) Johnson, Claxton
To Spurs: Durant, 8, 26

I don't know why anyone thinks Phoenix is going to get anything approaching the asking price they floated out a month ago.

[Seventyniner]

https://i.ibb.co/4gJ2rc4p/KD-trade.jpg

Only 1 more win? Fuck that!

[vy65]

Spurs Get:
KD

Suns Get:
Jrue Holiday
Sam Houser
JD Davidson
FRP#14

Celtics Get:
Devin Vassell

Brooklyn Gets:
Keldon Johnson
SRP#38

Spurs do it because KD. Suns do it because Holiday + Hauser can keep them somewhat competitive while they don't own their future - plus - they get a lotto pick. Celtics do it because they're shedding about 17MM off their horrendous bill while getting a serviceable player. Brooklyn does it because they get a serviceable player plus somewhat decent SRP for free.

[TD 21]

KD is on a ~$54MM expiring and is going to turn 37 right before the season starts. There is absolutely no love lost between him and the Phoenix front office as he was shopped during last years trade deadline. While KD does have some value still, the idea that he'd be worth a lotto pick + a mid FRP + 2 much younger players with positive value is insane. His market is much closer to what many have alluded to here: 1 FRP (they'd be lucky to get a low lotto pick) matching salary + serviceable players.

I'm not saying the Spurs would or should do this, I'm saying now that they don't have 8/9 to peddle, this is my best guess of what the Suns would realistically want.

These homer trades where the Spurs give up spare parts aren't realistic. Even for a going on 37 injury prone player (expiring is irrelevant; an extension will be part of whoever acquires him), it's still going to take a relatively significant asset/package to acquire him.

[RC_Drunkford]

The 4 players the Spurs should look to trade are Keldon, Barnes, Branham and Wesley. They are by far our 3 worst defenders and Wesley is our worst offensive player. Barnes is expiring and we can take on about 11 million in salary difference to help teams shave off some money. Add 1 first rounder and that's the maximum of what I'm putting on the block. We gonna need a lot of shooting and defense after such a move.

I think Devin can still replenish some value with a healthy offseason and the role that's best suited for him, which is offball shooter.

[vy65]

I'm not saying the Spurs would or should do this, I'm saying now that they don't have 8/9 to peddle, this is my best guess of what the Suns would realistically want.

These homer trades where the Spurs give up spare parts aren't realistic. Even for a going on 37 injury prone player (expiring is irrelevant; an extension will be part of whoever acquires him), it's still going to take a relatively significant asset/package to acquire him.

Expiring is incredibly relevant as he can refuse an extension, driving his value way down. It's what Jimmy did and GSW got him for 60 cents on the dollar.

[Guru of Nothing]

I'd do KD for the 14th pick and salary match, if KD arrives with no more than 2 years til current deal ends. Say, extend him one year so that Spurs on on hook for $110M total - and then they can negotiate properly with a 39-year old player on the back end. It's not a great deal for Phonix, but it might be the best they can do.

The Spurs are dealing from a position of strength this off-season, and based upon recent history, they know how to use it. I'm feeling pretty optimistic about this summer. Am I a sniffer? ... give it to me straight.

[RC_Drunkford]

the thing with KD is that his contract lines up perfectly with our cap. Fox will only cost 37 million next season, Wemby is still on a rookie deal so you can afford to have KD on a max. Then when Fox extension kicks in, KD is a free agent and you can work on a frontloaded extension for less. That way you have 2 years of KD while Wemby is still on a rookie contract and once his max extension is due you should have KD for cheap.

[TD 21]

Expiring is incredibly relevant as he can refuse an extension, driving his value way down. It's what Jimmy did and GSW got him for 60 cents on the dollar.

I'm saying, it'll be part of the negotiations. The team acquiring him won't be entering it it blind.

[vy65]

I'm saying, it'll be part of the negotiations. The team acquiring him won't be entering it it blind.

The point is that it'll depress his market and thus his value. Of course it'll be a part of the overall trade framework

[TD 21]

The point is that it'll depress his market and thus his value. Of course it'll be a part of the overall trade framework

Fair enough, but it's still going to take a centerpiece to acquire him or any star.

Again, not saying they would or should do this, but keep in mind, the mpg/usage is already looking dicey for Harper, so adding another star would exacerbate that. This isn't 2k; him and his representation aren't going to sit by idly for 3-4 years waiting to play a prominent role.

[baseline bum]

the thing with KD is that his contract lines up perfectly with our cap. Fox will only cost 37 million next season, Wemby is still on a rookie deal so you can afford to have KD on a max. Then when Fox extension kicks in, KD is a free agent and you can work on a frontloaded extension for less. That way you have 2 years of KD while Wemby is still on a rookie contract and once his max extension is due you should have KD for cheap.

That was my original thought too but difference in year to year salary on a contract can only be like 8% rendering the frontloading idea moot. So KD would have to take a discount on both years of the extension to not be a problem for the first year of Victor's likely 30% supermax deal.

[RC_Drunkford]

I think he would, I mean he’d be 38 and 39. If he wants to ring chase at that age he has to take a discount.

If we do this we might as well just throw the whole MLE at Mitch‘s day one Brook Lopez and sign him as Wemby‘s back up.

[BacktoBasics]

https://i.ibb.co/4gJ2rc4p/KD-trade.jpg

This is not god awful but I’d prefer we keep Barnes because Durant isn’t going to give us but 40 games.

[CGD]

WTF kind of retard proposal is this?

Sorry, he forgot to include Wemby to the Nets. Should make sense now.

[CGD]

KD for Keldon/Vassell and no more. I wont be sad for KD to be a one year rental either. Frees up that capspace the year after.

[Guru of Nothing]

Expiring is incredibly relevant as he can refuse an extension, driving his value way down. It's what Jimmy did and GSW got him for 60 cents on the dollar.

Trae Young, you know what to do. ...Trae is in the same exact situation as Fox was in Sacramento last year, right, two years remaining but extension eligible this season?

[jjspur]

I'm sorry, but all these deals for Durrant are just plain crazy. He couldn't take the Nets anywhere, and he didn't do squat in Phoenix. He's getting paid 50 plus million for what exactly ? He has one year left on his contract, and if whatever team that gets him doesn't make it deep into the playoffs or win a chip, he'll probably just leave again for the next sucker team. What do they then do then with considerably less talent and certainly fewer draft picks ?

We all know he's still talented even at 37, but to spend that much capital for basically a one year rental doesn't make any sense.
You might do it if you're desperate like Phoenix and the Nets were, I just don't think the spurs are there. They chose to take it slowly, draft well, and learn what it means to be a champion again.

Buying a quickie championship rarely ever works out. For example Giannis - out in the first round again. Lebron - out in the first round again. Durrant didn't even make the playoff's. There should be a rule that if you're a supermax player and you don't make it past the 1st round, you should give like 10% of your salary back to the team or lose your supermax status (just my opinion). How supermax are you if you can't get your team out of the first round ?

I can already hear it - but he can't do it all alone, he needs help. That's right they need help, but when you trade several players to match salaries, and trade away lots of draft picks, well bud, your help, present and future, just got traded away for just you, deal with it and quit bitching that you want to be traded. Unfortunately Durrant will be traded somewhere for a pretty hefty price, I don't doubt it. The spurs should just do the smart thing, say no, walk away and keep improving - the right way.

[scott]

The good news is: Brian Wright doesn't overpay on trades. I am not worried about him doing something stupid chasing after a mega deal.
Ariel said this in last year's "Ideal Offseason" thread, and I found it quite relevant and timeless.


When I look at past blockbuster trades, the common trend is they all end up in gross overpays and buyer's remorse (Durant to Phoenix, Harden to Brooklyn, Paul George to the Clippers, etc). Trades that work best are usually opportunistic (like Aaron Gordon to Denver, Derrick White or Porzingis to Boston, etc) and make sense all around. If Trae Young costs what is being proposed here (4+ likely lottery picks + youngsters) then I think the Spurs can do better than that by being a little patient and I don't mean YEARS.

Brian is actually quite good at finding those opportunistic trades. In Brian We Trust.

[SpursFan86]

If Keldon + Vassell + 14 is enough to land KD then you have to do that IMO. I just don’t think that’s going to be enough, and if his value really has lowered that much, I think a team like Houston jumps all over it first and will pay slightly more to win Phoenix over.

[mo7888]

If Keldon + Vassell + 14 is enough to land KD then you have to do that IMO. I just don’t think that’s going to be enough, and if his value really has lowered that much, I think a team like Houston jumps all over it first and will pay slightly more to win Phoenix over.

I doubt Houston overpays. It'll come down to where KD wants to go. Houston won't trump our offer if KD doesn't want to be in Houston.

[baseline bum]

If Keldon + Vassell + 14 is enough to land KD then you have to do that IMO. I just don’t think that’s going to be enough, and if his value really has lowered that much, I think a team like Houston jumps all over it first and will pay slightly more to win Phoenix over.

Depends on what Durant wants on an extension. I'm not trading #14 for a one year rental and I'm not trading for Durant if the cost is a two year extension at veteran supermax. Now if Durant is willing to sign a two year extension at say $29 million in year 1 and $31 million in year 2 then I probably trade #14 Vassell and Keldon for him.

[spurraider21]

https://i.ibb.co/4gJ2rc4p/KD-trade.jpg
:lol why would brooklyn do this

[Chinook]

I doubt Houston overpays. It'll come down to where KD wants to go. Houston won't trump our offer if KD doesn't want to be in Houston.

This is true. Part of me wonders if SA had only been interested when they had their pre-Fox assets to bear. Trading Vasselldon seems like a no-brainer here, but they may have been aiming to trade Collins, Jones and Barnes instead. It may have been Fox or Durant, even though I think Fox AND Durant is the play.

[Chinook]

Depends on what Durant wants on an extension. I'm not trading #14 for a one year rental and I'm not trading for Durant if the cost is a two year extension at veteran supermax. Now if Durant is willing to sign a two year extension at say $29 million in year 1 and $31 million in year 2 then I probably trade #14 Vassell and Keldon for him.

I would say $85M/2 would be a team-friendly contract. $60M/2 would be insanely team friendly.

[DPG21920]

The good news is: Brian Wright doesn't overpay on trades. I am not worried about him doing something stupid chasing after a mega deal.
Ariel said this in last year's "Ideal Offseason" thread, and I found it quite relevant and timeless.



Brian is actually quite good at finding those opportunistic trades. In Brian We Trust.[/COLOR]

He’s executed beautifully overall in trades. Not everything is a home run but a lot of really good smart deals and doing a great job at squeezing out little values and wins here and there smartly too.

[mo7888]

This is true. Part of me wonders if SA had only been interested when they had their pre-Fox assets to bear. Trading Vasselldon seems like a no-brainer here, but they may have been aiming to trade Collins, Jones and Barnes instead. It may have been Fox or Durant, even though I think Fox AND Durant is the play.

I think that's the play as well. We should know in about a month..

[jjspur]

Brian Wright gets a lot of grief on this board, but he's done a fairly solid job considering what he's sent out and what we've gotten back in return. Hope he keeps up the same good work this off season and beyond.

[CGD]

Brian Wright gets a lot of grief on this board, but he's done a fairly solid job considering what he's sent out and what we've gotten back in return. Hope he keeps up the same good work this off season and beyond.

Yeah, the "DEI Hire" crowd is pretty quiet these days . . .

[RC_Drunkford]

If Keldon + Vassell + 14 is enough to land KD then you have to do that IMO. I just don’t think that’s going to be enough, and if his value really has lowered that much, I think a team like Houston jumps all over it first and will pay slightly more to win Phoenix over.

word is he doesn't want to go to Houston. Nothing super credible, but that's what's floating around.


:lol why would brooklyn do this

well it's been said they are shopping Cam Johnson and their 2 picks at the end of the round or 1 of them and 1 future draft pick to get another lottery pick in this draft. Now I don't think 14 is high enough, but who knows.

[tbdog]

Chinook can you do some maths for us. Say Durant is traded for Keldon, Devin and 14 as out going salary for this upcoming season. How much do the spurs have in space to fill the remaining of their roster, in particularly getting a backup center?

[rankingtear]

Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) can you do some maths for us. Say Durant is traded for Keldon, Devin and 14 as out going salary for this upcoming season. How much do the spurs have in space to fill the remaining of their roster, in particularly getting a backup center?

Chinook too busy writing his essays, i am the new cap guy no capspace , 23 mil below the tax line for 10 players.

[RC_Drunkford]

Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) can you do some maths for us. Say Durant is traded for Keldon, Devin and 14 as out going salary for this upcoming season. How much do the spurs have in space to fill the remaining of their roster, in particularly getting a backup center?

we'd be over the cap by 11.5 million. The MLE for 14.1 million as well as the Bi-Annual exception for 5.1 million would be available to make more additions. If we use both that would put us under the tax line by about 2 million.

[CGD]

Chinook can you do some maths for us. Say Durant is traded for Keldon, Devin and 14 as out going salary for this upcoming season. How much do the spurs have in space to fill the remaining of their roster, in particularly getting a backup center?

We’d probably just have exceptions. All you did in the trade was swap the players. The money is nearly the same.

[RC_Drunkford]

I'm trying to figure out the trade scenarios here.

KD makes 54 million next season. If the Spurs renounce all cap holds and hold off the rookie signings, they would be under the cap by about 11 million. From what I understand they have to send out at least 43 million in salary.

Vassell & Keldon: 44.5 million

Vassell & Barnes: 46 million

Keldon, Barnes, Sochan: 43.6 million

Keldon, Barnes, Wesley, Branham: 46.2 million

Vassell, Sochan, Wesley, Branham: 43.8 million


Seems like all of these combinations would work in theory. I don't see the Vassell fit with Phoenix to be honest, but it looks like he almost has to be included to make this work. Is there some type of 3-team magic Wright could work Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) ?

[Chinook]

I'm trying to figure out the trade scenarios here.

KD makes 54 million next season. If the Spurs renounce all cap holds and hold off the rookie signings, they would be under the cap by about 11 million. From what I understand they have to send out at least 43 million in salary.

Vassell & Keldon: 44.5 million

Vassell & Barnes: 46 million

Keldon, Barnes, Sochan: 43.6 million

Keldon, Barnes, Wesley, Branham: 46.2 million

Vassell, Sochan, Wesley, Branham: 43.8 million


Seems like all of these combinations would work in theory. I don't see the Vassell fit with Phoenix to be honest, but it looks like he almost has to be included to make this work. Is there some type of 3-team magic Wright could work Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) ?

The specific number the Spurs need to get to is $43,566,887.20 in outgoing salary. I should note that that's not because of cap space. It's because teams below the apron are allowed to take in up to 125 percent of what they send out in salary plus $250,000. So yes, you're correct that each of those salaries combos would work. The Spurs can actually match any max contract in the league without trading either Devin or Keldon if they wanted to or needed to. That would require them basically trading everything that isn't those two, Wemby, Fox and one of Castle or 2 (signed and used as part of the salary). But the Spurs can offer one of the cleanest trade packages possible if they truly needed to.

All else created equal, I'd opt for that second-to-last combination, as keeping Sochan would really help the defense, and Vassell is still one of the more talented players on the team. If Devin were adding legit positive in the deal (like if for example it was 14 and Vassell or 14, Keldon/Barnes and a future first), that's different. Otherwise, I'd want them to try to rehab his value and save his contract for potential future deal down the road.

[Chinook]

Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) can you do some maths for us. Say Durant is traded for Keldon, Devin and 14 as out going salary for this upcoming season. How much do the spurs have in space to fill the remaining of their roster, in particularly getting a backup center?


Chinook too busy writing his essays, i am the new cap guy no capspace , 23 mil below the tax line for 10 players.

He's right. I'm currently 79 pages into my essay discussing the similarities between Jane Eyre and the new 3D-printed basketballs.

I haven't actually done a salary sheet for this year yet, but my instinct is that salary space isn't going to be a problem this year. It'd be very hard for them to get under the cap, but they have enough room to make a couple of big acquisitions without threatening the tax. Moving up so far in the lottery hurt their future salary space, and if for some reason they trade the pick, more options open up for them. But that's a good problem to have.

In your scenario, my plan would probably be to either use 38 to draft a center or trade it and some seconds to move into the late-first to grab the center. Then re-sign Bismack to provide a vet with a pulse for the minimum. Then re-sign Mamu to provide depth at both big spots. Finally sign a two-way center in case of injuries. But I'm also a fan of using the MLE on Bobby Portis, who can both play center and play next to Wemby at PF. Then still draft a center at 38 (there are some good project bigs in the second round) and maybe bring back Bismack anyway. The main issue is that the Spurs still need vet wing and guard depth and would only have the LLE and min contracts to do it. Possible, especially with the Spurs looking like a dark-horse if not a legit contender. But these are spots that would likely be out of the rotation, so they might be hard to pitch to a ring-chaser.

[Ariel]

I'm not saying the Spurs would or should do this, I'm saying now that they don't have 8/9 to peddle, this is my best guess of what the Suns would realistically want.

These homer trades where the Spurs give up spare parts aren't realistic. Even for a going on 37 injury prone player (expiring is irrelevant; an extension will be part of whoever acquires him), it's still going to take a relatively significant asset/package to acquire him.
Spurs can get Durant EASILY without including any of their top assets (Wemby, 2nd pick, Castle, Fox): excluding 2nd pick, starting draft night they can trade 5 firsts (25 -#14- + 26 + 28 + 30 + 32) + 3 swaps (27 + 29 + 31) + boatload of SRPs (too many to count) + any combination of Vassell / Barnes / Keldon / Sochan / Branham / Wesley / Champagnie. Not saying they should use that, but that's enough ammo for 3 KDs. If the Suns could have landed a comparable offer to that which you listed, he'd be out of Phoenix already.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Depends on what Durant wants on an extension. I'm not trading #14 for a one year rental and I'm not trading for Durant if the cost is a two year extension at veteran supermax. Now if Durant is willing to sign a two year extension at say $29 million in year 1 and $31 million in year 2 then I probably trade #14 Vassell and Keldon for him.

That's an overpay.

Considering his age, MLE is about right for year 2 and 3.

[LeBowen]

That's an overpay.

Considering his age, MLE is about right for year 2 and 3.

Doesn't matter, it's KD and it's beneath him to take a big paycut.
I don't want him, but if we do get him I think offering him another year of max for 26-27 season would be fine.
Wemby's extension starts in 2027, that's when KD would have to take a paycut and he'd be turning 39, not sure how much he'd have left at that point.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Doesn't matter, it's KD and it's beneath him to take a big paycut.
I don't want him, but if we do get him I think offering him another year of max for 26-27 season would be fine.
Wemby's extension starts in 2027, that's when KD would have to take a paycut and he'd be turning 39, not sure how much he'd have left at that point.

He is due for a major injury at any time, may cost him 40 games or even playoff. Would you still throw him that much money?

[LeBowen]

He is due for a major injury at any time, may cost him 40 games or even playoff. Would you still throw him that much money?

As I said, I wouldn't trade for him at all, but if it happens he's getting at least another year of max after his current contract.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

As I said, I wouldn't trade for him at all, but if it happens he's getting at least another year of max after his current contract.

Yes. We shouldn't trade for him unless he agrees to give us a giant discount on his year 2 and 3 salary. This way we can have enough money to sign other pieces.

This would be the only way we can trade our #14 pick for him.

[RC_Drunkford]

The specific number the Spurs need to get to is $43,566,887.20 in outgoing salary. I should note that that's not because of cap space. It's because teams below the apron are allowed to take in up to 125 percent of what they send out in salary plus $250,000. So yes, you're correct that each of those salaries combos would work. The Spurs can actually match any max contract in the league without trading either Devin or Keldon if they wanted to or needed to. That would require them basically trading everything that isn't those two, Wemby, Fox and one of Castle or 2 (signed and used as part of the salary). But the Spurs can offer one of the cleanest trade packages possible if they truly needed to.

All else created equal, I'd opt for that second-to-last combination, as keeping Sochan would really help the defense, and Vassell is still one of the more talented players on the team. If Devin were adding legit positive in the deal (like if for example it was 14 and Vassell or 14, Keldon/Barnes and a future first), that's different. Otherwise, I'd want them to try to rehab his value and save his contract for potential future deal down the road.

thanks that's exactly why I was asking. I'd also prefer the Keldon/Barnes/Branham/Wesley package. The only problem with that one is, that we'd have only 8 players under contract with a salary of 164 million.

That would leave us with 23.5 million to fill out the rest of the roster until we get to tax territory. That's 3.35 million per player on average which is virtually impossible since the vet minimum will be 3.6.

Trading into the end of the first round to draft a Fleming or McNeeley in case they fall would be a cheap way to add one player with a salary under 3 million. Maybe sign Riley Minnix. But it's hard to find players who are good and cost less than the minimum, so Vassell has to be included unless we want to pay tax or do some heavy cap gymnastics.

[ixiXSolidXixi]

Guys what you think about this trade.

Brooklyn pick 2 and Paul George
Philadelphia pick 14 and Cam Johnson
San Antonio pick 3 and pick 8

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Guys what you think about this trade.

Brooklyn pick 2 and Paul George
Philadelphia pick 14 and Cam Johnson
San Antonio pick 3 and pick 8

The difference in value between picks 2 and 3 is significantly higher than the difference between 8 and 14.

[Ignazzz]

Much higher.

[BatManu20]

1927773022426984557

[ixiXSolidXixi]

What about Keldon and pick 14 for Vucevic (Contract expire at the end of next season)and pick 12?

[exstatic]

Guys what you think about this trade.

Brooklyn pick 2 and Paul George
Philadelphia pick 14 and Cam Johnson
San Antonio pick 3 and pick 8

There is a HUGE dropoff between 2 and 3, probably as big as between 3 and 8.

Don’t overthink this. Just use #2 and pick Harper.

[exstatic]

What about Keldon and pick 14 for Vucevic (Contract expire at the end of next season)and pick 12?

Vooch is a fucking TERRIBLE defender.

[TD 21]

Spurs can get Durant EASILY without including any of their top assets (Wemby, 2nd pick, Castle, Fox): excluding 2nd pick, starting draft night they can trade 5 firsts (25 -#14- + 26 + 28 + 30 + 32) + 3 swaps (27 + 29 + 31) + boatload of SRPs (too many to count) + any combination of Vassell / Barnes / Keldon / Sochan / Branham / Wesley / Champagnie. Not saying they should use that, but that's enough ammo for 3 KDs. If the Suns could have landed a comparable offer to that which you listed, he'd be out of Phoenix already.

On second thought, I'd revise the draft capital portion to Nets and Spurs retain 26 and 14 respectively, leaving Suns with just 19.

I still maintain that it'd cost the Spurs 2 to get the caliber of player(s) I suspect the Suns will covet though. Isbia inexplicably doesn't care about the draft and is consumed with trying to remain pseudo competitive in the interim.

Spurs own 1sts project as mid - late going forward, the Hawks '27 projects as mid as well (no incentive to tank or good enough offers to part with Young) and the swaps sound nice, but are so far out that in a league this volatile are impossible to predict.

[kobyz]

Trade Idea, #2 and Jeremy for Alex Sarr and #6(draft Kon Kanupel)

[mo7888]

Trade Idea, #2 and Jeremy for Alex Sarr and #6(draft Kon Kanupel)

Double no

[Guru of Nothing]

A fun table I stumbled across by accident: https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/trades.fcgi

Can you guess the one team we've never traded with?

[scott]

A fun table I stumbled across by accident: https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/trades.fcgi

Can you guess the one team we've never traded with?

One of my favorite pages, tbh

[Seventyniner]

A fun table I stumbled across by accident: https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/trades.fcgi

Can you guess the one team we've never traded with?

That's a great trivia question. :bobo

I was able to narrow it down to 9 fairly quickly, then I got stuck. I was pretty sure the Spurs had traded with 4 of them in the past and I guessed one of the remaining 5. Turns out the right answer is one of the 4 I threw out.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Trade Idea, #2 and Jeremy for Alex Sarr and #6(draft Kon Kanupel)

That is like trading one gold for two stones.

[Dverde]

I think Spurs can help facilitate a KD trade. Nick Richards worth a few second rounders? Upgrade over Bassey?

[benefactor]

Double no
kobyz is timvps troll. I have thought that for years

[benefactor]

I have also theorized for years that timvp was running ducks

[mo7888]

I have also theorized for years that timvp was running ducks

Having alts to drum up more activity isn't a bad move

[scott]

Having alts to drum up more activity isn't a bad move

I thought everyone already knew that I'm all of the accounts. This site is just me talking to myself.

SHUT THE FUCK UP

[eric365]

Phoenix need to waive salary to exit cap hell

Is it possible the spurs sign a scrub to a 10M non guaranteed contract and send it in a trade? So the other team can just waive salary

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Phoenix need to waive salary to exit cap hell

Is it possible the spurs sign a scrub to a 10M non guaranteed contract and send it in a trade? So the other team can just waive salary

This loophole has been closed for a while now.

[mo7888]

How about adding KD + Collins?

Devin to Utah
Keldon + Barnes + Malaki + Wesley + 14 to phoenix
KD + Collins to SA

[Chinook]

How about adding KD + Collins?

Devin to Utah
Keldon + Barnes + Malaki + Wesley + 14 to phoenix
KD + Collins to SA

I don't think Collins makes sense with Durant. I wouldn't want KD playing the three at this point of his career, and I don't think I want Collins to be a swing big who plays a lot of center. As much of a Collins fan as I've been historically, I really don't love him as a target at all. But I definitely don't love him in this deal. The good news is that Phoenix would probably love to have his contract in place of Vassell's. So you could do:

Vassell to Utah
Durant to SA
Collins and Barnes to Phoenix.

The Jazz a guy we're pretending they want.
The Spurs get Durant while not having to use up all of their good salary ballast
The Suns get pure expirings and presumably some assets for Durant

Fox, Harper, Wesley
Castle, Branham
Champagnie, Johnson
Durant, Sochan
Wembanyama

presumably 14 would be going out in this deal, but the Spurs would have 38 and seconds to move around the draft. Then they'd have the MLE, LLE and those expirings to continue to add to the team. I honestly like the team better with Vassell on it, but Champ seems like he'd be a decent player to slot into that lineup.

[scott]

I don't think Collins makes sense with Durant. I wouldn't want KD playing the three at this point of his career, and I don't think I want Collins to be a swing big who plays a lot of center. As much of a Collins fan as I've been historically, I really don't love him as a target at all. But I definitely don't love him in this deal. The good news is that Phoenix would probably love to have his contract in place of Vassell's. So you could do:

Vassell to Utah
Durant to SA
Collins and Barnes to Phoenix.

The Jazz a guy we're pretending they want.
The Spurs get Durant while not having to use up all of their good salary ballast
The Suns get pure expirings and presumably some assets for Durant

Fox, Harper, Wesley
Castle, Branham
Champagnie, Johnson
Durant, Sochan
Wembanyama

presumably 14 would be going out in this deal, but the Spurs would have 38 and seconds to move around the draft. Then they'd have the MLE, LLE and those expirings to continue to add to the team. I honestly like the team better with Vassell on it, but Champ seems like he'd be a decent player to slot into that lineup.

I guess we're just giving up on the idea of defense and rebounding?

[Chinook]

I guess we're just giving up on the idea of defense and rebounding?

Wemby's gonna have to step up his rebounding (in general, but especially) with Durant on the team. We know he's a consistent threat to grab 20 boards when he puts his mind to it, and with Fox and Durant on the team, he should have more energy to dedicate to the task. Sign Portis with the MLE and draft the best defender/rebounder with the other pick the Spurs should have. There should be some good candidates in the middle of the draft. But ultimately, the Spurs HAVE to start coaching guys to perform better. Guys missing rotations and not boxing out isn't a talent issue. Yes, the team should look to add personnel that can help, but you can't outsource defense or rebounding. It's something everyone on the court is responsible for, and if guys like Castle, Sochan, Fox and Champ can't carry their weight, then that's a much bigger problem than the team lacking specialists. As mentioned before, the team will still have multiple avenues to improve the team after the draft.

[scott]

Wemby's gonna have to step up his rebounding (in general, but especially) with Durant on the team. We know he's a consistent threat to grab 20 boards when he puts his mind to it, and with Fox and Durant on the team, he should have more energy to dedicate to the task. Sign Portis with the MLE and draft the best defender/rebounder with the other pick the Spurs should have. There should be some good candidates in the middle of the draft. But ultimately, the Spurs HAVE to start coaching guys to perform better. Guys missing rotations and not boxing out isn't a talent issue. Yes, the team should look to add personnel that can help, but you can't outsource defense or rebounding. It's something everyone on the court is responsible for, and if guys like Castle, Sochan, Fox and Champ can't carry their weight, then that's a much bigger problem than the team lacking specialists. As mentioned before, the team will still have multiple avenues to improve the team after the draft.

Interesting how you've put the responsibility for defense and rebounding on everyone except for the old guy on a SuperMax that you're hellbent on acquiring :lol

[Chinook]

Interesting how you've put the responsibility for defense and rebounding on everyone except for the old guy on a SuperMax that you're hellbent on acquiring :lol

It's not that interesting. Durant, for all of the talk in this thread, was an average defender last year. His rebounding rate would put him either third or fourth behind Wemby, Sochan and Johnson. He'd be third behind Wemby and Champ for defensive win-shares. Like, sure, he should and hopefully would be better on that end on a team with more options and playing a more supporting role. He's never been tremendous at it, but he'd be the second-best shot-blocker on the team behind Wemby. He's also one of the best offensive players in NBA history. I don't know what KK's been on with his Durant takens, but KD hasn't been a liability to call out.

I also didn't put the onus on Harper. He, like Durant, would also have to play his part, but neither was on the team last year, so they weren't really part of what I was saying. The team needs their players to try harder and play smarter. If the role-players need the Spurs to bring in guys to help them make rotations and box out, then that's a problem. Castle, on a team with Fox/Durant/Wemby, can't be an inefficient scorer and ineffective defender. The same is true for Vassell if he survives the trade or Champ if he's going to be penciled in at that starting position. The team's been bad defensively for too long for it to not be mainly a coaching issue, so I think the team would see the most progress if they could figure that out rather than hoping acquring good defenders can paper off their historical issues.

EDIT: My rankings above removed players who aren't going to be on the team next year.

[scott]

It's not that interesting. Durant, for all of the talk in this thread, was an average defender last year. His rebounding rate would put him either third or fourth behind Wemby, Sochan and Johnson. He'd be third behind Wemby and Champ for defensive win-shares. Like, sure, he should and hopefully would be better on that end on a team with more options and playing a more supporting role. He's never been tremendous at it, but he'd be the second-best shot-blocker on the team behind Wemby. He's also one of the best offensive players in NBA history. I don't know what KK's been on with his Durant takens, but KD hasn't been a liability to call out.

I also didn't put the onus on Harper. He, like Durant, would also have to play his part, but neither was on the team last year, so they weren't really part of what I was saying. The team needs their players to try harder and play smarter. If the role-players need the Spurs to bring in guys to help them make rotations and box out, then that's a problem. Castle, on a team with Fox/Durant/Wemby, can't be an inefficient scorer and ineffective defender. The same is true for Vassell if he survives the trade or Champ if he's going to be penciled in at that starting position. The team's been bad defensively for too long for it to not be mainly a coaching issue, so I think the team would see the most progress if they could figure that out rather than hoping acquring good defenders can paper off their historical issues.

EDIT: My rankings above removed players who aren't going to be on the team next year.

We don't have to pretend this. Your first instinct to not list Durant as one of the players who need to pick it up on defense or rebounding was correct... because he's not going to. It's a bottom third percentile defender (not "average"). He's not a rebounder. He's not going to become one. It's fine to acknowledge this. Trying to brush it aside by pointing out he'd be third or fourth in rebound rate on a team that was terrible at rebounding is as impressive as winning world's tallest midget.

But you're hellbent on bringing a guy to our team who provides the thing we don't really need (scoring) and doesn't do the things we do need (defense and rebounding) and hope everyone else does those things (which they should do... our coaches should do a better job of coaching them to do those things). It's just funny that your first instinct was to completely absolve Durant of any responsibility while putting on the onus on everyone else in the lineup and label them as "not carrying their weight".

You're just inadvertently highlighting the flaw of this relinquishing desire to add Durant to the team.

[RC_Drunkford]

How about adding KD + Collins?

Devin to Utah
Keldon + Barnes + Malaki + Wesley + 14 to phoenix
KD + Collins to SA

Collins doesn't fit next to KD. The player you want as a front court pairing should be PJ Washington. Better defender, more mobile and costs 10 million less this season, giving you more room to fill out the roster.

[cutewizard]

https://youtu.be/ggiduB_DIuQ?si=NBh81Cf2ZmxGK3tv

[Chinook]

We don't have to pretend this. Your first instinct to not list Durant as one of the players who need to pick it up on defense or rebounding was correct... because he's not going to. It's a bottom third percentile defender (not "average"). He's not a rebounder. He's not going to become one. It's fine to acknowledge this. Trying to brush it aside by pointing out he'd be third or fourth in rebound rate on a team that was terrible at rebounding is as impressive as winning world's tallest midget.

But you're hellbent on bringing a guy to our team who provides the thing we don't really need (scoring) and doesn't do the things we do need (defense and rebounding) and hope everyone else does those things (which they should do... our coaches should do a better job of coaching them to do those things). It's just funny that your first instinct was to completely absolve Durant of any responsibility while putting on the onus on everyone else in the lineup and label them as "not carrying their weight".

You're just inadvertently highlighting the flaw of this relinquishing desire to add Durant to the team.

Or.. I wasn't pretending, and I have a history of comments talking about the need for the guys who are already on the team to be coached to scheme and to stop making the mental mistakes that have plagued the team for years. Defense is about scheme and buy-in more than personnel. It's one thing to cover for a star who isn't a lead defender. It's another to have role-players who are bad defenders and who don't box out, and the Spurs have been developing their guys to be the latter for a long time now.

I also find it weird that you're assuming Collins is a better rebounder than Portis and suggest that Collins/Durant is somehow a better attempt to address your desire than Portis/Durant would be. One is adding a key vet without trading anyone away. The other is a blunt solution to a problem that has to be fixed through coaching first.

And yes, the Spurs problem is this offense more than defense. Come on.

[SpursFan86]

Yeah I don’t know if I agree that defense is our main problem…or at least, defense as it pertains to the areas where KD would come into play.

We had a top 10 defense when Wemby was on the court. The issue was having no legit backup rim protection and then obviously the fact that Wemby missed the 2nd half of the year.

KD was probably a slightly below average defender last year but I don’t think it’s crazy to think that he can be average in a better environment surrounded by above-average guard defenders + Wemby’s interior presence. I certainly don’t think he’s some sort of noticeable downgrade from guys like Barnes/Keldon/Vassell.

If the Spurs get a competent backup big I’m really not overly concerned with our ability to be an above-average defense (elite with Wemby on the court, average when he’s sitting). I am concerned with our shooting and ability to force teams to not just go all-in on stopping Wemby. Maybe we’ll be fine if Fox/Wemby can be the duo we thought + Castle takes a step forward + Harper turns out to be legit, but I still think we could really use a guy like KD and giving up 14/Vassell/Keldon isn’t some huge loss IMO.

I do agree rebounding is a major issue though, and KD isn’t much of a solution there. Just feel like that’s probably easier to solve for elsewhere vs. getting an elite offensive threat like KD. Maybe Vic putting on some muscle + us getting an actual backup C could turn us into an average rebounding team (admittedly wishful thinking).

All in all, I’m not dying to get KD but for the commonly discussed packages we’d be giving up I think it’s a fairly easy decision. Just really don’t feel too bad about losing Vassell/Keldon and for all we know the Spurs are going to try and trade away pick 14 anyways.

[scott]

Or.. I wasn't pretending, and I have a history of comments talking about the need for the guys who are already on the team to be coached to scheme and to stop making the mental mistakes that have plagued the team for years. Defense is about scheme and buy-in more than personnel. It's one thing to cover for a star who isn't a lead defender. It's another to have role-players who are bad defenders and who don't box out, and the Spurs have been developing their guys to be the latter for a long time now.

I also find it weird that you're assuming Collins is a better rebounder than Portis and suggest that Collins/Durant is somehow a better attempt to address your desire than Portis/Durant would be. One is adding a key vet without trading anyone away. The other is a blunt solution to a problem that has to be fixed through coaching first.

And yes, the Spurs problem is this offense more than defense. Come on.

I never said anything about Collins or Portis… so I’m not sure what you’re on about.

But no, the Spurs problem is not this offense more than the defense. Come on.

[Chinook]

I never said anything about Collins or Portis… so I’m not sure what you’re on about.

But no, the Spurs problem is not this offense more than the defense. Come on.

Maybe you should have then? You advocate for Collins because of rebounding but ignore the proposal you were responding to had a better rebounder for less money.

And no, defense can be better, but Wemby's already a generational defender. Meanwhile, the team currently requires one of Vasselldon, Castle or Champ for them to beat anyone. They can be a top-seven defense with better coaching. They don't have the personnel to be a playoff offense at the moment.

[scott]

Maybe you should have then? You advocate for Collins because of rebounding but ignore the proposal you were responding to had a better rebounder for less money.

This is the lineup you proposed where I responded and said we are giving up on defense and rebounding:


Fox, Harper, Wesley
Castle, Branham
Champagnie, Johnson
Durant, Sochan
Wembanyama

Where do Collins or Portis play into that? If you wanted Portis as part of that, maybe you should have wrote that. But you didn't.

And when have I ever "advocated for Collins because of rebounding"... or advocated for him in general? I mentioned him as part of my first draft ideal offseason because he's a modern 4, something I think most folks seem to agree we need. I don't even have that strong of feelings for Collins. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else.


And no, defense can be better, but Wemby's already a generational defender. Meanwhile, the team currently requires one of Vasselldon, Castle or Champ for them to beat anyone. They can be a top-seven defense with better coaching. They don't have the personnel to be a playoff offense at the moment.

Wemby is a generational defender, who is gassed on offense because he's picking up the slack for the rest of the team on the defensive end. Imagine how good our defense could be if all 5 guys (or heck, even if 3 of them) played defense. Instead, we are a team who consistently gives up wide open looks from 3. A team that ranked 23rd in Opposing PPG, 24th in Opponent FG%, 24th in Opponent 3P%, 28th in Opponent OREB, 21st in TO forced.

You're either willfully dishonest, plain ignorant, or just blind if you don't see how our defense is a problem.

As for "requiring one of Vasselldon, Castle or Champ"... I mean, you just named the team's 3rd, 4th and 5 leading scorers... yeah, teams usually require one of those guys to show up to win games. You just described basketball :lol

[SpursFan86]

It’s not that our defense isn’t a problem, but offense is a bigger issue IMO. We’re a shitty team so obviously we could improve pretty much everywhere :lol

With Wemby on the court we were a clear top 10 defense. Everyone here agrees we need a backup center so that everything doesn’t go to shit when Wemby leaves the floor, but I don’t really think swapping Vassell/Keldon for Durant prevents us from fixing that hole.

We have a guard rotation that should be well above average on defense. We have an elite wing defender in Sochan. We have a generational anchor in Wemby. Add a competent backup big and maybe one other 3&D type wing and I think our defense is going to be perfectly fine (even with KD playing 30+ mpg). Seems like we could add those pieces and land KD with some creativity and using exceptions.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Interesting how you've put the responsibility for defense and rebounding on everyone except for the old guy on a SuperMax that you're hellbent on acquiring :lol

That's why Durant doesn't make sense for us.

John Collins fit us so much better.

[LeBowen]

[O’Connor]: “There are no untouchables in New Orleans. League sources say the Pelicans are gauging the market for everyone on their roster.”
scott

Fire up the trade machine for Murphy without involving Castle or Harper!

[Chinook]

This is the lineup you proposed where I responded and said we are giving up on defense and rebounding:



Where do Collins or Portis play into that? If you wanted Portis as part of that, maybe you should have wrote that. But you didn't.

And when have I ever "advocated for Collins because of rebounding"... or advocated for him in general? I mentioned him as part of my first draft ideal offseason because he's a modern 4, something I think most folks seem to agree we need. I don't even have that strong of feelings for Collins. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else.



Wemby is a generational defender, who is gassed on offense because he's picking up the slack for the rest of the team on the defensive end. Imagine how good our defense could be if all 5 guys (or heck, even if 3 of them) played defense. Instead, we are a team who consistently gives up wide open looks from 3. A team that ranked 23rd in Opposing PPG, 24th in Opponent FG%, 24th in Opponent 3P%, 28th in Opponent OREB, 21st in TO forced.

You're either willfully dishonest, plain ignorant, or just blind if you don't see how our defense is a problem.

As for "requiring one of Vasselldon, Castle or Champ"... I mean, you just named the team's 3rd, 4th and 5 leading scorers... yeah, teams usually require one of those guys to show up to win games. You just described basketball :lol

That's not a lineup. It's a depth chart immediately following the Durant trade I described. There's no backup center listed and had Branham "in the rotation". I talk about the other things the Spurs need to do to shore up the roster in that same post. Yes, I didn't talk about Portis in that post. But I had just a couple of posts earlier and clarified it afterward. I assumed we were talking over Durant at PF rather than Collins. It only occurred to me after reading this post that you were treating a clearly unfinished roster as if it were the end of the off-season. I guess that explains why you assumed I was pretending something.

You literally just advocated for Collins. No need to strawman by saying I said you were obsessed with him. I'd very much argue thst the Durant and Giannis interest shows that "most people" don't agree on a classic PF like Collins. Some folks do and that's fine. But there's a lot of variance on Victor's front-court partner.

Wemby's gonna have to anchor the defense just like Tim did. It's going to be his most important job. Every stat you described is primarily a coaching issue. That getting cleaned up would mean Wemby doesn't have to waste energy plugging holes for inattentive temmates. But he still has to do his job.

Offense is the bigger problem. No one said the defense wasn't an issue. I've directly, to you in this conversation, explained exactly what I believe the problem with the defense is. Our disagreement is you saying the Spurs "don't need" a star scorer like Durant and me saying they do. In other words: Our dispute is this offense more than defense. Come on.

And no. The point isn't that the Spurs require their third scorer to perform well to win games. It's that the Spurs had to rely on unreliable and underperforming players to have rare good games, or else they'd lose. And they lost a lot because that strategy was a losing one. I don't think that's a hard comment to interpret.

[spurraider21]

i think it may have been KOC... but he floated the idea of a 3 team deal where

Spurs get Giannis
Pelicans get Harper
Bucks get Zion

with some mishmash of picks going in a few directions

[RC_Drunkford]

i think it may have been KOC... but he floated the idea of a 3 team deal where

Spurs get Giannis
Pelicans get Harper
Bucks get Zion

with some mishmash of picks going in a few directions

I doubt the Bucks want Zion now that he‘s on trial for rape

[spurraider21]

I doubt the Bucks want Zion now that he‘s on trial for rape
true

i think it came up because NOP had some Bucks picks from the Holiday trade

[scott]

That's not a lineup. It's a depth chart immediately following the Durant trade I described. There's no backup center listed and had Branham "in the rotation". I talk about the other things the Spurs need to do to shore up the roster in that same post. Yes, I didn't talk about Portis in that post. But I had just a couple of posts earlier and clarified it afterward. I assumed we were talking over Durant at PF rather than Collins. It only occurred to me after reading this post that you were treating a clearly unfinished roster as if it were the end of the off-season. I guess that explains why you assumed I was pretending something.

You literally just advocated for Collins. No need to strawman by saying I said you were obsessed with him. I'd very much argue thst the Durant and Giannis interest shows that "most people" don't agree on a classic PF like Collins. Some folks do and that's fine. But there's a lot of variance on Victor's front-court partner.

Wemby's gonna have to anchor the defense just like Tim did. It's going to be his most important job. Every stat you described is primarily a coaching issue. That getting cleaned up would mean Wemby doesn't have to waste energy plugging holes for inattentive temmates. But he still has to do his job.

Offense is the bigger problem. No one said the defense wasn't an issue. I've directly, to you in this conversation, explained exactly what I believe the problem with the defense is. Our disagreement is you saying the Spurs "don't need" a star scorer like Durant and me saying they do. In other words: Our dispute is this offense more than defense. Come on.

And no. The point isn't that the Spurs require their third scorer to perform well to win games. It's that the Spurs had to rely on unreliable and underperforming players to have rare good games, or else they'd lose. And they lost a lot because that strategy was a losing one. I don't think that's a hard comment to interpret.

Serious question, is English your second language? Because you seem to consistently find yourself in these situations where you say one thing but then have to write a treatise about you meant something else or that someone was required to piece together your collective works to truly understand them. You presented a depth chart, to which I pointed out the deficiency in defense and rebounding, to which you've gone on some other tangent about how you're just misunderstood. This seems to happen a lot with you. Perhaps the problem is that, while you often have very good and well thought out ideas, you are an objectively bad communicator.

Anyway, the depth chart you've suggested will struggle with defense and rebounding. My hope is we try to improve on those areas this offseason. We'll see what happens. I'll let you resume your campaign of advocating for Kevin Durant.

[scott]

i think it may have been KOC... but he floated the idea of a 3 team deal where

Spurs get Giannis
Pelicans get Harper
Bucks get Zion

with some mishmash of picks going in a few directions

The San Quintin All Stars might be the only team able to make room for Zion in their SL

[scott]

scott (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=150)

Fire up the trade machine for Murphy without involving Castle or Harper!

Obviously the easiest way would be Vassell + Draft capital for TMIII... but why does NOP do this (other than to collect draft capital)? Unfortunately Sochan is the only other potentially positive asset we have other than Barnes (due to his expiring). Would NOP consider Sochan + Barnes + some draft capital for TMIII to get off some long term money? I don't see how it makes sense for them.

So we need to find a third team... but you and I have discussed at length... not a lot of teams who actually need Vassell... but what about this?

Bulls swap out one FSU lotto pick for one who's actually decent but have to give up a second and a swap to make the upgrade. Phillips included as ballast, not sure if he has any actual value.

NOP gets an FRP, a swap and Sochan (and an SRP, whatever)? I would hang up the phone and block the Spurs number if I was NOP... but this is the direction I think we'd have to try and go in.

In reality... TMIII probably requires a Dejounte-like haul, doesn't he?

https://i.imgur.com/f1rNEf4.png

[scott]

Lots of understandable focus on trading for big names... but someone (I apologize I forget who) made a great point the other day about how acquiring the popular names is expensive (and usually ends up being a regrettable overpay) and that some good teams acquire talent opportunistically (how Boston did with Derrick and Tingus, for example, though they turned around and got themselves in cap hell with their extensions).

Would love to hear some ideas for opportunistic, low-key sharp moves. Who are your under-the-radar pet cats? Maybe some guys who haven't lived up to their potential so far, or are buried on a depth chart and haven't gotten their chance yet? Bonus points if their teams need help getting out of cap situations.

I know mo7888 are on the Jarace Walker bandwagon.

I also like Dean Wade out of Cleveland.

Many people have pointed at Sam Hauser as a potential cheap pickup to help BOS get out of their cap bind.

Any others out there? This seems to be Brian Wright's wheelhouse.

[RC_Drunkford]

does anybody know what's up with Herb Jones injury? Would love to get him, but a long shoulder injury might affect his shooting.

[scott]

does anybody know what's up with Herb Jones injury? Would love to get him, but a long shoulder injury might affect his shooting.

Was just about to suggest that maybe Herb is the NOP wing we should be thinking of trying to get, rather than TMIII. Though I don't think he'll be available for a bargain price either.

[RC_Drunkford]

Lots of understandable focus on trading for big names... but someone (I apologize I forget who) made a great point the other day about how acquiring the popular names is expensive (and usually ends up being a regrettable overpay) and that some good teams acquire talent opportunistically (how Boston did with Derrick and Tingus, for example, though they turned around and got themselves in cap hell with their extensions).

Would love to hear some ideas for opportunistic, low-key sharp moves. Who are your under-the-radar pet cats? Maybe some guys who haven't lived up to their potential so far, or are buried on a depth chart and haven't gotten their chance yet? Bonus points if their teams need help getting out of cap situations.

I know mo7888 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=43104) are on the Jarace Walker bandwagon.

I also like Dean Wade out of Cleveland.

Many people have pointed at Sam Hauser as a potential cheap pickup to help BOS get out of their cap bind.

Any others out there? This seems to be Brian Wright's wheelhouse.

Haywood Highsmith is low key one of the best defenders in the NBA. Makes 5 million, has 1 year left on the Heat. I doubt they want to move him, but who knows what the price is.

[spurraider21]

I doubt the Bucks want Zion now that he‘s on trial for rape
true

i think it came up because NOP had some Bucks picks from the Holiday trade

[Seventyniner]

I doubt the Bucks want Zion now that he‘s on trial for rape

Only makes sense if the Bucks are insane, or waive him but then they're getting back very little.

[LeBowen]

Haywood Highsmith is low key one of the best defenders in the NBA. Makes 5 million, has 1 year left on the Heat. I doubt they want to move him, but who knows what the price is.

He was my suggestion last year, Spurs apparently weren't interested.

[Chinook]

Serious question, is English your second language? Because you seem to consistently find yourself in these situations where you say one thing but then have to write a treatise about you meant something else or that someone was required to piece together your collective works to truly understand them. You presented a depth chart, to which I pointed out the deficiency in defense and rebounding, to which you've gone on some other tangent about how you're just misunderstood. This seems to happen a lot with you. Perhaps the problem is that, while you often have very good and well thought out ideas, you are an objectively bad communicator.

Anyway, the depth chart you've suggested will struggle with defense and rebounding. My hope is we try to improve on those areas this offseason. We'll see what happens. I'll let you resume your campaign of advocating for Kevin Durant.

Bro, we all mispeak need to clarify sometimes. The difference is that instead of insulting you, I take the time to try to bridge the gap when someone diaagrees instead of just calling them a jerk or idiot like a lot of folks do and moving on. I don't know why you think calling that a "treatise" is an actual critique. It comes across far more like petulance.

I presented a depth chart after one move and one draft pick then wrote a paragraph about next steps, and you took issue with it. I'm sorry that I assumed you'd bother reading a whole post before interjecting. I don't think it's justifiable for you to think a roster with no other center was supposed to not require additional moves. That just doesn't make sense. It's a shame instead of just admitting you jumped the gun, you're backing into this corner and lashing out with lame ad hominems. But I guess the Collins discussion is a reminder of how you'll cling to a semantic quirk in lieu of the actual context of the discussion.

I've never suggested I am not advocating for Durant, and it's ridiculous to assume one has to push an idea as hard as I've pushed KD to SA for it to count as advocacy. But again, we know you'll dig yourself into another hole about the term if I comment on it further.

[scott]

Bro, we all mispeak need to clarify sometimes. The difference is that instead of insulting you, I take the time to try to bridge the gap when someone diaagrees instead of just calling them a jerk or idiot like a lot of folks do and moving on.

I presented a depth chart after one move and one draft pick then wrote a paragraph about next steps, and you took issue with it. I'm sorry that I assumed you'd bother reading a whole post before interjecting. I don't think it's justifiable for you to think a roster with no other center was supposed to not require additional moves. That just doesn't make sense. It's a shame instead of just admitting you jumped the gun, you're backing into this corner and lashing out with lame ad hominems. But I guess the Collins discussion is a reminder of how you'll cling to a semantic quirk in lieu of the actual context of the discussion.

I've never suggested I am not advocating for Durant, and it's ridiculous to assume one has to push an idea as hard as I've pushed KD to SA for it to count as advocacy. But again, we know you'll dig yourself into another hole about the term if I comment on it further.

A lineup still only let's 5 guys play at a time. A starting 5 of Fox/Castle/Champ/Durant/Wemby is going to struggle on the boards and with defense. This was the entirety of my post. There is no gun that was jumped. This was my entire thought, to which you responded by putting the onus on everyone but your prized acquisition to pick up the slack in this area. There is no other roster move that is going to help that lineup of 5 guys be better in that area. Signing a cloned version of prime Dennis Rodman for the bench isn't going to make that lineup of 5 guys better at defense or rebounding.

You think the defense or rebounding will be fine, or it will be a sign that everyone other than Durant is not carrying their weight. Your position is understood. I disagree with it.

It's great you're all in for Durant. There are lots of people who want him, some more zealously than others. I understand that position, and I'm not even fully against it, though I do have concerns (which have been brought up). What I find hilarious is how your zealous advocacy of him takes you weird takes like it's up to Fox, Castle and Champ to "carry their weight" and do things like pick up the defense and rebounding slack... not the 6'11" guy on a SuperMax contract. That's about as absurd to me as someone who thinks Durant should come here for $10MM/yr to be the 8th option (an actual suggestion that has been floated).

And for the record... asking if you English was your second language wasn't an ad hominem attack... it was a serious question. This happens a lot with you and I'm genuinely wondering why so I can better engage with you, because I've always enjoyed the thought you put into your takes (even if I don't agree with them). Maybe that's not possible. Oh well.

[Chinook]

A lineup still only let's 5 guys play at a time. A starting 5 of Fox/Castle/Champ/Durant/Wemby is going to struggle on the boards and with defense. This was the entirety of my post.

If that's the position they find themselves in, they should use one of the avenues I listed in that post to improve the roster. But since we apparently ARE talking about Durant at PF as the main sticking point, then the response I gave applies, which is that the small guys, especially the role players, have to work harder and play smarter. The reality is that Durant has played PF for years, and his teams have been able to get by. Yes, that means that Wemby will have to go back to the things he was doing the second half of his rookie season to boost his rebounding numbers, but the smalls need to box out. You don't pass up a star because he's only an average rebounder for his position.


You think the defense or rebounding will be fine.

No. I think the way to fix it is with coaching. I do not know if Johnson will fix it. Pop had been doing a horrible job preparing his players in those aspects for many years at this point. If Johnson is more of the same, the issues won't get fixed. But if they fail, it's not because Durant can't play PF on a successful team -- he obviously can. It's because the guys they have continue to make the mental mistakes that have led to this issue in the first place. Can Durant change to pick up some more boards? Sure. But is it his burden to make up for the perimeter players not doing their part? No. He has his weight to carry, and they need to carry theirs.


What I find hilarious is how your zealous advocacy of him takes you weird takes like it's up to Fox, Castle and Champ to "carry their weight" and do things like pick up the defense and rebounding slack... not the 6'11" guy on a SuperMax contract.

Sometimes I wonder if you see when you watch the Spurs. I don't mean that as an insult, but we were here on ST complaining about coaching failing the players, we watched that yelling guy trash Pop and explain the mistakes guys were making, and yet you don't come to the conclusion that the players could just NOT do those things if they had a coach who trained them to not do them. Durant is who he is, which is a mixture of average and above-average in terms of defense and rebounding. He's likely going to come in and continue being that, maybe trending a bit higher once he settles in. But the smalls have been BAD, in a way that's obvious if you watch them. They can't continue to be bad. You can't outsource defense and boxing out -- everyone's gotta do it.


That's about as absurd to me as someone who thinks Durant should come here for $10MM/yr to be the 8th option (an actual suggestion that has been floated).

No it's not, because " it's up to Fox, Castle and Champ to 'carry their weight'" is true no matter who they bring in. I've been talking about this a lot with Vassell and the changes he needs to make. I've also said it about Castle. These are fundamental flaws that you can't paper over with teammates. They have to do their part. It doesn't matter if it's Durant, Collins, Washington or Sorber at PF. The Spurs can't keep playing like this.


And for the record... asking if you English was your second language wasn't an ad hominem attack... it was a serious question. This happens a lot with you and I'm genuinely wondering why so I can better engage with you, because I've always enjoyed the thought you put into your takes (even if I don't agree with them). Maybe that's not possible. Oh well.

I'm going to leave this, because this will get into a silly semantic debate. If you want to move on from it, that's cool.

[jesterbobman]

Lots of understandable focus on trading for big names... but someone (I apologize I forget who) made a great point the other day about how acquiring the popular names is expensive (and usually ends up being a regrettable overpay) and that some good teams acquire talent opportunistically (how Boston did with Derrick and Tingus, for example, though they turned around and got themselves in cap hell with their extensions).

Would love to hear some ideas for opportunistic, low-key sharp moves. Who are your under-the-radar pet cats? Maybe some guys who haven't lived up to their potential so far, or are buried on a depth chart and haven't gotten their chance yet? Bonus points if their teams need help getting out of cap situations.

I know mo7888 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=43104) are on the Jarace Walker bandwagon.

I also like Dean Wade out of Cleveland.

Many people have pointed at Sam Hauser as a potential cheap pickup to help BOS get out of their cap bind.

Any others out there? This seems to be Brian Wright's wheelhouse.

I think the way to find this is to logically go through teams:
Are they in a place where they'd get rid of someone, as they're tanking (Utah - Collins, Sexton),
saving money (Boston - Hauser), or a
positional reset where they need to change (e.g, Orlando looking for guard / 2/3s).

Basically - are they in a positional to potentially undervalue their guys as assets as they won't stay around.

Boston - $- (Jrue, Tingus, Hauser),
LAL - positional overlap - Reeves, (listing for completeness - not an option for us)
Cleveland - $ - (Dean Wade, Okoro, Sam Merill as FA),
Orlando $ and positions (Isaac, WCJ),
Pacers - $ in future - Walker
Minnesota $$ (IF they keep both Naz / Randle as FA, one of them might be free),
Washington - tank - (Smart)
Dallas (need guards) - PJ, Gafford, etc
Utah tank - Collins, Sexton

I think we need PF / SF minutes, with shooting needed as Fox/Harper / Castle / Wemby will organise creation, and there are FA options as well (Laravia as commonly mentioned), but I think the bolded guys fit the need and target team that you'd look to trade and acquire cheap.

[scott]

Sometimes I wonder if you see when you watch the Spurs. I don't mean that as an insult, but we were here on ST complaining about coaching failing the players, we watched that yelling guy trash Pop and explain the mistakes guys were making, and yet you don't come to the conclusion that the players could just NOT do those things if they had a coach who trained them to not do them. Durant is who he is, which is a mixture of average and above-average in terms of defense and rebounding. He's likely going to come in and continue being that, maybe trending a bit higher once he settles in. But the smalls have been BAD, in a way that's obvious if you watch them. They can't continue to be bad. You can't outsource defense and boxing out -- everyone's gotta do it.


Here's the crux of it. We agree Durant is who he is (though you see him as someone different than I do... you think he's an average to above-average defender... and I see him as someone who ranks 30% percentile in DARKO D-DPM, 15th percentile in D-LEBRON, and 36th percentile in Crafted DPM), but you want to craft the rest of the team around him... and I don't.

You've talked a lot about how this team isn't ready to compete... so why would we want to conform our team around a 37-year old on a SuperMax for the next 1-3 years? Does KD make us a championship contender? Unless he does, what are we hoping to accomplish by building the rest of the team to cover up his weaknesses as an aging scorer? I agree that the coaching should increase the accountability of our players on defense and rebounding, but not because we now have to overcome the deficiencies of our 37 year old star who isn't going to do those things, but because that should be part of their all around game. In my opinion, we should get a PF who will also do those things.

I want a PF who ranks higher than 3rd percentile in OREB rate (as Durant does). He's a fine defensive rebounder (66th percentile), but he's not a better rebounder than other options discussed to varying degrees of feasibility (PJ Washingtonm Santi Aldama, Jarace Walker, John Collins, Naz Reid all dwarf him in actual rebounding rate on both ends of the court). I want a PF who is a better defender. What I don't value as highly is what Durant brings (elite scoring), because I don't want our newly acquired star PG, reigning ROY or #2 draft pick relegated to 3rd, 4th and 5th options (which they will be... because Kevin isn't, nor should he, going to be supplanted as a scoring option by those guys). I want Castle and Harper, specifically, to develop with more significant opportunity than the scraps left over after Wemby, KD and Fox eat. This may not be optimal for short term success, but I don't believe KD will make us a title contender in the short term anyway so I'd rather prioritize the long term.

If we acquired KD, I'd certainly root for him and I think we'll be better. I've even said at between Giannis and KD, I'd rather go for KD because of the cost associated. But if we do get KD, I hope it's only a 1-year deal and part of his value is viewed as an expiring that helps us manage the larger contracts to come, because I view the tax line as a hard cap for this franchise.

So yes... we do see the same things when we watch the Spurs. But sometimes I wonder if when you read other people's posts, if you are reading the same thing as me... because you seem to misinterpret them a lot (in this case, interpreting my having a problem with Durant's deficiencies on this team as some kind of lack of a desire for the rest of our team to improve on their deficiencies. Our guys can improve on those things without having to do so because we brought in KD).

[Chinook]

So to finish up the idea that was the topic of that dispute. This is an example of a completed roster after a Durant-Collins-Vassell trade:

Fox, Castle, Joseph (traded for Wesley since Blake is seemingly unhappy and probably wants a change of scenery)
Harper, Sam Merrill (using the LLE) Mills
Sochan, Johnson, Minix
Durant, O'Neale (traded for Branham as part of the Durant trade), Mamukelashvili
Wembanyama, Portis (MLE), Yang (Hassan, drafted trading up from 38 to 29 as part of the Durant trade)

TW: Ingram, Sears (ALA PG), Faye (Senegal C)

They bring back some old vets and chemistry guys, take some fliers and overall have a mix of a bunch of different kinds of players and skill-sets.

[scott]

I think the way to find this is to logically go through teams:
Are they in a place where they'd get rid of someone, as they're tanking (Utah - Collins, Sexton),
saving money (Boston - Hauser), or a
positional reset where they need to change (e.g, Orlando looking for guard / 2/3s).

Basically - are they in a positional to potentially undervalue their guys as assets as they won't stay around.

Boston - $- (Jrue, Tingus, Hauser),
LAL - positional overlap - Reeves, (listing for completeness - not an option for us)
Cleveland - $ - (Dean Wade, Okoro, Sam Merill as FA),
Orlando $ and positions (Isaac, WCJ),
Pacers - $ in future - Walker
Minnesota $$ (IF they keep both Naz / Randle as FA, one of them might be free),
Washington - tank - (Smart)
Dallas (need guards) - PJ, Gafford, etc
Utah tank - Collins, Sexton

I think we need PF / SF minutes, with shooting needed as Fox/Harper / Castle / Wemby will organise creation, and there are FA options as well (Laravia as commonly mentioned), but I think the bolded guys fit the need and target team that you'd look to trade and acquire cheap.

Good list. I think we can take the same approach and dig deeper on respective depth charts. For example... instead of Isaac and WCJ for Orlando... is Goga the guy who can be available? I think these are likely the kinds of opportunities our FO is digging into, as opposed to the star trades we are commonly linked to.

[ginobilized]

This offseason is going to be nuts!
It's possible that all 30 teams are involved in trades in one form or another. The Zion bombshell adds to the bizarre nature of things.
Between the draft, free agency and trades opening up, I truly have now clue as to how things will look after the smoke clears.
Maybe I'm over-reacting, as most years less happens than expected, but, this feels different.

If we can shore up rebounding and shooting with decent to good defenders, I think we'll have a chance to smell the play-in. The West is a bloodbath.

All this to say, I think the Spurs excel at the micro trades and acquisitions. As many others have noted here, there are a bunch of under-the-radar players that might outplay their price tags.

[mookie2001]

I don’t know much about chinook but if English is his second language then he’s one gifted dude. 99th percentile shit

[SpursBills]

Any way the Spurs can get Tristan Vukcevic from Washington? He looks decent - legit size, has some skill, excellent shooter given his age, not horrible on the boards

[Seventyniner]

This offseason is going to be nuts!
It's possible that all 30 teams are involved in trades in one form or another. The Zion bombshell adds to the bizarre nature of things.
Between the draft, free agency and trades opening up, I truly have now clue as to how things will look after the smoke clears.
Maybe I'm over-reacting, as most years less happens than expected, but, this feels different.

If we can shore up rebounding and shooting with decent to good defenders, I think we'll have a chance to smell the play-in. The West is a bloodbath.

All this to say, I think the Spurs excel at the micro trades and acquisitions. As many others have noted here, there are a bunch of under-the-radar players that might outplay their price tags.

This offseason is gonna be one wild ride. :bobo

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Durant is like Barnes' final form

fkn valuable as fk. Be redacted to not try to get him for 2 years

[Chinook]

Here's the crux of it. ... you want to craft the rest of the team around him... and I don't.


No it's not, because " it's up to Fox, Castle and Champ to 'carry their weight'" is true no matter who they bring in. I've been talking about this a lot with Vassell and the changes he needs to make. I've also said it about Castle. These are fundamental flaws that you can't paper over with teammates. They have to do their part. It doesn't matter if it's Durant, Collins, Washington or Sorber at PF. The Spurs can't keep playing like this.


You've talked a lot about how this team isn't ready to compete... so why would we want to conform our team around a 37-year old on a SuperMax for the next 1-3 years?

Because it's good for Victor. Yes, I think if things go right, the team could win a title with this core. But that's not the point of bringing Durant in. Leveling up guys is the point. Giving them an experienced vet who's been in a bunch of situations is the point. Giving them a guy who can take over a game and show them how that works from a mental-preparation standpoint ... is the point. The point is to put the guys on the roster in the best position to compete when the time arises (in 1-3 years). I find giving the guys a superstar with more tread left on the tires than Paul but who still is old enough to not take over the team. A guy who show the young bloods the path to the mountain top.


What I don't value as highly is what Durant brings (elite scoring), because I don't want our newly acquired star PG, reigning ROY or #2 draft pick relegated to 3rd, 4th and 5th options (which they will be... because Kevin isn't, nor should he, going to be supplanted as a scoring option by those guys).

Bad teams are full of high picks who get to be top options. The last thing Castle and Harper need is to get the Vassell or Johnson treatment where they focus on becoming stars and fail to develop skills beyond that. It's not a crime to be a third, fourth or fifth option when you're a new player. Even if everything goes great and Harper and Castle are the two co-stars with Wemby for a decade, one of them will be the third option. Whichever of the duo starts will be the third or fourth option, and they need to develop in that situation. A Castle who can't shoot or defend and who doesn't help on the boards is a failed prospect, and that has nothing to do with Durant. What KD can do, Harper and Castle will likely never come close to. If the Spurs are tanking for Boozer or whomever, they can cater to giving their young guards all the touches they can stand. If they want to win games, they can't let a guy who had Castle's impact and a rookie dictate their approach until/unless they show they're capable of contributing to winning.


But if we do get KD, I hope it's only a 1-year deal and part of his value is viewed as an expiring that helps us manage the larger contracts to come, because I view the tax line as a hard cap for this franchise.

You don't get to roll over cap space like in the NFL. The Spurs likely do have to make sure that in 2027-2028 and 2028-2029 that they're managing their salary correctly. But they're in no danger of crossing that line in 2025-2027. That's why it's important for them to spend on the other guys while they're able to. According to that spreadsheet RCD posted, they should have enough breathing room to have Durant, Fox and Wemby in the first year of Wemby's deal. It's that next year, when Castle has earned a max contract, that would matter. But for all we know, the Spurs might have traded away Castle during the previous draft by that point, and they'd get a whole extra year of salary space before Harper's deal. I'm all for the team being fiscally responsible, but part of that responsibility is knowing how to spend too, not just how to save.


But sometimes I wonder if when you read other people's posts, if you are reading the same thing as me... because you seem to misinterpret them a lot (in this case, interpreting my having a problem with Durant's deficiencies on this team as some kind of lack of a desire for the rest of our team to improve on their deficiencies. Our guys can improve on those things without having to do so because we brought in KD)

Again, avoiding getting into another semantics squabble. Our difference is two-fold. 1) We disagree about the nature of the team's offense. That's pretty well established at this point. 2) We disagree on what the team needs to do to fix their defensive issues. You seem to believe the team needs to bring in personnel to fix the issue. Hence you've posted trade ideas for Murphy, Washington, Gafford, etc. I think if the team were coached correctly, they'd be a top-seven defense with no major change to their roster. I think they'd be an elite defense with Durant AND have a chance to be an elite and robust offense. So when I watch the Spurs, I don't see a personnel issue; I see an issue that's existed before the current personnel was what it is today. So I don't think there's as much value in getting those defensive players as you do. If the coaching isn't there, those defensive guys will fall into the mire just like how even the decent shooters the Spurs draft somehow become bad shooters in SA nowadays. If the coaching is there, their floor would rise so much that it wouldn't make sense to look at those guys over a floor-raiser like Durant. Is there a middle ground? Yes. But it doesn't look like the trades folks are proposing to me. It's far more conservative.

[spurraider21]

Even if Durant doesn’t turn the spurs into immediate title contenders you can’t act like there’s no value in getting the team into the playoffs. Wemby hasn’t played a single important nba game to date. No “must win” games. Nothing resembling playoff atmosphere.

adding Durant will get the team some of that experience and he’s a complete gym rat type who will be yet another role model for the younger guys

[scott]

Even if Durant doesn’t turn the spurs into immediate title contenders you can’t act like there’s no value in getting the team into the playoffs. Wemby hasn’t played a single important nba game to date. No “must win” games. Nothing resembling playoff atmosphere.

adding Durant will get the team some of that experience and he’s a complete gym rat type who will be yet another role model for the younger guys

We don't need to get KD to get into the playoffs.

[RC_Drunkford]

Any way the Spurs can get Tristan Vukcevic from Washington? He looks decent - legit size, has some skill, excellent shooter given his age, not horrible on the boards

We absolutely can, he’s a free agent. Nice target.

[scott]

Because it's good for Victor. Yes, I think if things go right, the team could win a title with this core. But that's not the point of bringing Durant in. Leveling up guys is the point. Giving them an experienced vet who's been in a bunch of situations is the point. Giving them a guy who can take over a game and show them how that works from a mental-preparation standpoint ... is the point. The point is to put the guys on the roster in the best position to compete when the time arises (in 1-3 years). I find giving the guys a superstar with more tread left on the tires than Paul but who still is old enough to not take over the team. A guy who show the young bloods the path to the mountain top.

Weird. This was the exact same argument I made (and you scoffed at) at the beginning of last season. I wanted Wemby to get his Terry Cummings. But we've actually already made that acquisition, one who is younger and will be here longer. No need to build the team around a 37-year old SuperMax guy any longer, in my opinion. Has Fox been in the same situations as Durant? Admittedly, no. But Durant's championship credential is "I won some chips by joining the best team in the league"... I'm not sure how impactful that lesson is to anyone. Harrison Barnes can also impart the same wisdom. He (nor Fox) can teach Wemby how to be a league MVP... but most other league MVPs found their way without this specific brand of mentorship either.




Bad teams are full of high picks who get to be top options. The last thing Castle and Harper need is to get the Vassell or Johnson treatment where they focus on becoming stars and fail to develop skills beyond that. It's not a crime to be a third, fourth or fifth option when you're a new player. Even if everything goes great and Harper and Castle are the two co-stars with Wemby for a decade, one of them will be the third option. Whichever of the duo starts will be the third or fourth option, and they need to develop in that situation. A Castle who can't shoot or defend and who doesn't help on the boards is a failed prospect, and that has nothing to do with Durant. What KD can do, Harper and Castle will likely never come close to. If the Spurs are tanking for Boozer or whomever, they can cater to giving their young guards all the touches they can stand. If they want to win games, they can't let a guy who had Castle's impact and a rookie dictate their approach until/unless they show they're capable of contributing to winning.

There are already two other guys who will be the focus ahead of them. Keldon and Vassell didn't have that. My opinion is we don't need a third, especially one who is a bottom third percentile defender.

And you're right... Castle's shooting, defending and rebounding have nothing to do with Durant. Bringing him in or not isn't going to change his trajectory in those areas. But it might stunt his growth as an offensive contributor, otherwise. I'm not interested in doing that. Not because I think Castle is better, or is going to be better, than Kevin Durant... but because Kevin Durant isn't going to be here in our prime winning years.



You don't get to roll over cap space like in the NFL. The Spurs likely do have to make sure that in 2027-2028 and 2028-2029 that they're managing their salary correctly. But they're in no danger of crossing that line in 2025-2027. That's why it's important for them to spend on the other guys while they're able to. According to that spreadsheet RCD posted, they should have enough breathing room to have Durant, Fox and Wemby in the first year of Wemby's deal. It's that next year, when Castle has earned a max contract, that would matter. But for all we know, the Spurs might have traded away Castle during the previous draft by that point, and they'd get a whole extra year of salary space before Harper's deal. I'm all for the team being fiscally responsible, but part of that responsibility is knowing how to spend too, not just how to save.

The spreadsheet RCD posted is based on KD taking a 2/60 extension, something baseline bum (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=131) suggested and you already said was unrealistic. It's also based on Sochan extending for 3/33 on a declining deal. I hope this is what he extends for, but I'm not so sure. It's also an incomplete roster.

Let's instead assume these things for a moment:

0) Keldon, Barnes and #14 go out to acquire KD
1) We use the MLE and sign someone for a flat 3-year deal for the full MLE
2) We use the BAE for a 1-year deal this year and then again in two years... in the meantime, we fill that roster spot with a 5-year vet on a min deal
3) Every empty roster spot is filled with a 5-year vet on a min deal
4) We add no other draft picks after #2 this year
5) Every contract that isn't noted as an extension below is backfilled with a 5-year vet on a min deal
6) KD extends on a 1+1 for exactly what he's making now
7) Instead of the 3/33 assumed for Sochan, he instead signs a flat 3/45

That gets us into the tax every single one of the next 4 years... which I don't think the Spurs will do. It's not about "rolling over cap space" (and no one ever suggested this, my friend). It's about treating the tax line like a hard cap. The Spurs aren't deep into the tax, but the assumptions here are fairly moderate. So to avoid the tax, one of the things above will have to give... which will it be? I've already given up adding any FRPs to our team, and if do add FRPs (which we should), those will all cost more than this scenario. KD might take less? Maybe we sign Sochan for less? Or maybe we just let Sochan walk? Maybe we don't use our MLE this way? Maybe we dump Keldon? Or maybe I'm forgetting about some kind of loophole here? Something will have to give though. This is why I said if we got Durant, I'd want it to be viewed as a 1-year expiring. In part, because I also don't really want a roster that is 6 players deep and filled out with nothing but minimum guys. That's a personal preference, but I don't think that's a smart way to go about constructing the roster.

https://i.imgur.com/ZMufxvw.png


Again, avoiding getting into another semantics squabble. Our difference is two-fold. 1) We disagree about the nature of the team's offense. That's pretty well established at this point. 2) We disagree on what the team needs to do to fix their defensive issues. You seem to believe the team needs to bring in personnel to fix the issue. Hence you've posted trade ideas for Murphy, Washington, Gafford, etc. I think if the team were coached correctly, they'd be a top-seven defense with no major change to their roster. I think they'd be an elite defense with Durant AND have a chance to be an elite and robust offense. So when I watch the Spurs, I don't see a personnel issue; I see an issue that's existed before the current personnel was what it is today. So I don't think there's value in getting those defensive players. If the coaching isn't there, those defensive guys will fall into the mire just like how even the decent shooters the Spurs draft somehow become bad shooters in SA nowadays. If the coaching is there, their floor would rise so much that it wouldn't make sense to look at those guys over a floor-raiser like Durant. Is there a middle ground? Yes. But it doesn't look like the trades folks are proposing to me. It's far more conservative.

The coaching issue and the Durant issue aren't related though. The coaching needs to improve. We're in agreement. It doesn't need Kevin Durant to improve, and we certainly shouldn't only improve it if we get Durant. Likewise, we shouldn't not improve it if we don't get Durant. But if the coaching improves, I still want my PF to be things that Kevin Durant is not and I am not necessary seeking another alpha scorer for the team. You seem to want one. That's fine. We disagree. We aren't going to convince one another.

It's also been a long time since I've actually seen KD raise the floor anywhere... all his teams have been flatlining or getting worse since GSW, with coaches getting fired and teams being dismantled. I'm not saying that's all KD's fault... but he certainly doesn't have a recent track record of raising floors.

[Chinook]

I'm not actually obsessed with the idea of bringing in Durant. The thing is for me, if it's not him, the Spurs should just draft Sorber/Flemming at 14 and go into the season. Then around the deadline they can read the market and react. If the Suns don't make a Durant trade this summer (and there's a legit chance they won't), then he'll be pennies on the dollar. Or guys who don't look like they have any chance of shaking loose like. Mikal Bridges, JJJ or Doncic might be options. Or they can use their expirings and seconds to grab a role-player like Clarke. Ideas like Vassell or Johnson and 14 for some role-player don't appeal to me at all.

[palangi]

Lots of understandable focus on trading for big names... but someone (I apologize I forget who) made a great point the other day about how acquiring the popular names is expensive (and usually ends up being a regrettable overpay) and that some good teams acquire talent opportunistically (how Boston did with Derrick and Tingus, for example, though they turned around and got themselves in cap hell with their extensions).

Would love to hear some ideas for opportunistic, low-key sharp moves. Who are your under-the-radar pet cats? Maybe some guys who haven't lived up to their potential so far, or are buried on a depth chart and haven't gotten their chance yet? Bonus points if their teams need help getting out of cap situations.

I know mo7888 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=43104) are on the Jarace Walker bandwagon.

I also like Dean Wade out of Cleveland.

Many people have pointed at Sam Hauser as a potential cheap pickup to help BOS get out of their cap bind.

Any others out there? This seems to be Brian Wright's wheelhouse.

vassell + Sochan

to the Jazz for

Kyle Filipowski + Taylor Hendricks + the 21st pick

Barnes + Keldon Johnson + Pick 38

to Boston for

Neemias Queta + Pick 32

Sign Tristan Vicivic.

Draft

2. Dylan Harper
14. Carter Bryant
21. Rasheer Fleming
32. Drake Powell

Roster
PG- Fox, Harper, Wesley
SG- Castile, Champagnie, Powell
SF- Hendricks, Bryant, Minnix
PF- Filipowski, Flemming
C- Wemby, Queta, Vucivic

[scott]

Likewise I'm not that against bringing him in. But I do think it would create more of a crunch around what I perceive as a hard cap than is being let on. Because I don't think Durant is going to extend for a discount (I could be wrong), nor do I even necessarily think he should. Durant for one year? Sure. I don't think that makes us a contender, but maybe we get a nice year of mentorship. Maybe Durant does extend for cheap (who knows). But I feel trading for Durant and extending him for what I think he would command would be a mistake.

Likewise, I actually want us to just pick someone at 14. Shake the trees around the low-key trades that Brian Wright likes to do (which I posted about in this very thread). Fill out the roster that way. IMO, that's still a playoff (not play-in) team. Try to do that with one of Vassell or Keldon and our zillion SRPs if you can. We already made a major trade AND got gifted a #2 draft pick. Keep going with this... it's working out rather well, actually.

And yes... actually coach the team please.

[spurraider21]

We don't need to get KD to get into the playoffs.
How about getting into round 2. Having consistently competitive games night in night out against the better teams throughout the season. That is all immensely valuable experience. Okc didn’t become a finals team overnight

[scott]

How about getting into round 2. Having consistently competitive games night in night out against the better teams throughout the season. That is all immensely valuable experience. Okc didn’t become a finals team overnight

OKC also didn’t give up assets bringing in a 37 year old SuperMax guy.

[RC_Drunkford]

So to finish up the idea that was the topic of that dispute. This is an example of a completed roster after a Durant-Collins-Vassell trade:

Fox, Castle, Joseph (traded for Wesley since Blake is seemingly unhappy and probably wants a change of scenery)
Harper, Sam Merrill (using the LLE) Mills
Sochan, Johnson, Minix
Durant, O'Neale (traded for Branham as part of the Durant trade), Mamukelashvili
Wembanyama, Portis (MLE), Yang (Hassan, drafted trading up from 38 to 29 as part of the Durant trade)

TW: Ingram, Sears (ALA PG), Faye (Senegal C)

They bring back some old vets and chemistry guys, take some fliers and overall have a mix of a bunch of different kinds of players and skill-sets.

including Branham and O'Neal doesn't work with this trade. You can't aggregate players and be over the 2nd apron.

[RC_Drunkford]

What the Spurs really lack on the rebounding front and defensively is a "tone setter". In about 50% of the postgame interviews Mitch Johnson said "we lacked physicality". We need somebody out there who brings it from tip off. That's one of the main reasons I want John Collins, because Will Hardy said that he has been that guy for the Jazz.

Yes the coaching has been bad, but these young guys need to have somebody out there who just hustles and plays hard. I also agree that adding KD would have us fill out the end of the roster with a bunch of minimum guys and I don't think that's ideal. 3-and-D players are hard to come by and cost a lot in the NBA if you trade for them. There are a bunch of those in our draft range.


Because it's good for Victor. Yes, I think if things go right, the team could win a title with this core. But that's not the point of bringing Durant in. Leveling up guys is the point. Giving them an experienced vet who's been in a bunch of situations is the point. Giving them a guy who can take over a game and show them how that works from a mental-preparation standpoint ... is the point. The point is to put the guys on the roster in the best position to compete when the time arises (in 1-3 years). I find giving the guys a superstar with more tread left on the tires than Paul but who still is old enough to not take over the team. A guy who show the young bloods the path to the mountain top.


Fox is good enough for that. And having a guy out there who shows them how to bring the right physicality is as important to level up.

Again I'm not completely out on Durant, but there are other avenues that give you more upside, more young talent and good value contracts for the long term.

[RC_Drunkford]

So to finish up the idea that was the topic of that dispute. This is an example of a completed roster after a Durant-Collins-Vassell trade:

Fox, Castle, Joseph (traded for Wesley since Blake is seemingly unhappy and probably wants a change of scenery)
Harper, Sam Merrill (using the LLE) Mills
Sochan, Johnson, Minix
Durant, O'Neale (traded for Branham as part of the Durant trade), Mamukelashvili
Wembanyama, Portis (MLE), Yang (Hassan, drafted trading up from 38 to 29 as part of the Durant trade)

TW: Ingram, Sears (ALA PG), Faye (Senegal C)

They bring back some old vets and chemistry guys, take some fliers and overall have a mix of a bunch of different kinds of players and skill-sets.

I can easily make the argument that this roster here is as good, even though yours has a trade in it that can't happen:

Fox/Harper/Wesley
Castle/Champagnie/Powell (2nd round)
Vassell/Sochan/Minnix
Collins/LaRavia/Nance Jr.
Wemby/Sorber/Vukcevic

with more upside and better contracts

[Chinook]

including Branham and O'Neal doesn't work with this trade. You can't aggregate players and be over the 2nd apron.

You don't have to aggregate them in this deal. Branham can be traded for O'Neale straight up. But it's part of the deal in that the Spurs are paying for both Royce and KD with the same picks

[Chinook]

I can easily make the argument that this roster here is as good, even though yours has a trade in it that can't happen:

Fox/Harper/Wesley
Castle/Champagnie/Powell (2nd round)
Vassell/Sochan/Minnix
Collins/LaRavia/Nance Jr.
Wemby/Sorber/Vukcevic

with more upside and better contracts

That's definitely not "Just as good". This has "We have X at home" energy.

[RC_Drunkford]

You don't have to aggregate them in this deal. Branham can be traded for O'Neale straight up. But it's part of the deal in that the Spurs are paying for both Royce and KD with the same picks

no you can't unless you trade O'Neal into the Spurs MLE which then means you can't sign Portis

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

no you can't unless you trade O'Neal into the Spurs MLE which then means you can't sign Portis

Yes you can. Just about but you can trade them for each other after July 1st.

[RC_Drunkford]

Yes you can. Just about but you can trade them for each other after July 1st.

if you trade O'Neal into cap space, yes. But there is no cap space once you trade Vassell and Barnes for KD