Spurs trade ideas

[KingKev]

I doubt Pat Riley would do this. But other GMs maybe "interested" to prolong misery for their teams

I read PHX would be interested in giving him 100mm for 2 years but doubt they could make it work and Beal would have to be involved.

[LeBowen]

What could Vassell and KJ get us in return?
Adding in Collins/Branham Picks as needed?

Trey MurphyIII/Herb Jones?

D'Aaron Fox/Huerter?

Cam Johnson/DFS?

I'd say Devin is worth 2, probably not 3 FRPs because of his team friendly deal that just started and potential upside.
Keldon is a neutral, fairly cheap contract.
Collins is a negative.
Tre is worth some SRPs because he's a decent backup on expiring deal.
Branham is worthless, maybe some teams rate Wesley.

I'd say Cam Johnson is worth 2 good FRPs. Cam and DFS for Devin, Wesley and some SRPs would be fair.

Fox isn't for sale unless he rejects an extension his summer. If he does, he's probably worth 5 FRPs.
I'd do Devin, ATL '27 and SAC 20131 swap returned for Fox. Might look like an underpay, but he'll be on an expiring deal next summer.
Huerter is garbage.

Murphy is the most untradeable NOLA player, Herb's team friendly deal really inflates his value, they'd ask for 2 good FRPs.

[Pauleta14]

I'd say Devin is worth 2, probably not 3 FRPs because of his team friendly deal that just started and potential upside.
Keldon is a neutral, fairly cheap contract.
Collins is a negative.
Tre is worth some SRPs because he's a decent backup on expiring deal.
Branham is worthless, maybe some teams rate Wesley.

I'd say Cam Johnson is worth 2 good FRPs. Cam and DFS for Devin, Wesley and some SRPs would be fair.

Fox isn't for sale unless he rejects an extension his summer. If he does, he's probably worth 5 FRPs.
I'd do Devin, ATL '27 and SAC 20131 swap returned for Fox. Might look like an underpay, but he'll be on an expiring deal next summer.
Huerter is garbage.

Murphy is the most untradeable NOLA player, Herb's team friendly deal really inflates his value, they'd ask for 2 good FRPs.

I heard yesterday that Cam Johnson has a $4.5M trade kicker that would raise his salary close to $30M and make him a lot less attractive on the market. Spurs would need more than Dev and Wes

[BacktoBasics]

I heard yesterday that Cam Johnson has a $4.5M trade kicker that would raise his salary close to $30M and make him a lot less attractive on the market. Spurs would need more than Dev and Wes

I know Cam is a ST darling but I wouldn't move Vassell for Cam. I don't believe you're moving the needle in any significant way there. Now if we had an additional volume scorer that was panning out I could see that being a more pragmatic deal.

[LeBowen]

I heard yesterday that Cam Johnson has a $4.5M trade kicker that would raise his salary close to $30M and make him a lot less attractive on the market. Spurs would need more than Dev and Wes

Players often waive kickers when they get traded to their preferred destinations. They don't when they get dumped to tanking teams. Barnes waived his when he was joining.


I know Cam is a ST darling but I wouldn't move Vassell for Cam. I don't believe you're moving the needle in any significant way there. Now if we had an additional volume scorer that was panning out I could see that being a more pragmatic deal.

I wouldn't trade healthy and consistent Devin, but if he can't get his shit together this season...
But I'd rather save him for potential Fox trade. We could get Cam for Keldon and a pick or two.

[rascal]

If the Spurs are serious about making the playoffs this year they will trade some of their draft assets to make a roster upgrade and bring in a difference maker who will get the Spurs into the playoffs.

[onechance87]

If the Spurs are serious about making the playoffs this year they will trade some of their draft assets to make a roster upgrade and bring in a difference maker who will get the Spurs into the playoffs.

Nah this roster still needs more young talent coming in to grow with wemby.This group of young guys we got aint it.Bad choice
to keep investing in wesley,keldon and branham ect.Waste of money and time.Everybody knew execpt this dumb front office that they
did not fit with wemby or were anything special.Not sure why the front office values them so high.

[jjspur]

I'd say Devin is worth 2, probably not 3 FRPs because of his team friendly deal that just started and potential upside.
Keldon is a neutral, fairly cheap contract.
Collins is a negative.
Tre is worth some SRPs because he's a decent backup on expiring deal.
Branham is worthless, maybe some teams rate Wesley.

I'd say Cam Johnson is worth 2 good FRPs. Cam and DFS for Devin, Wesley and some SRPs would be fair.

Fox isn't for sale unless he rejects an extension his summer. If he does, he's probably worth 5 FRPs.
I'd do Devin, ATL '27 and SAC 20131 swap returned for Fox. Might look like an underpay, but he'll be on an expiring deal next summer.
Huerter is garbage.

Murphy is the most untradeable NOLA player, Herb's team friendly deal really inflates his value, they'd ask for 2 good FRPs.

Herb Jones is really worth 2 first round picks and Cam Johnson is worth Devin, Wesley + a 2nd rounder or two, Its just would the spurs make those moves ? Probably not. The spurs usually make incremental moves rather than a big move. So much for a blockbuster trade from the spurs. I can see them trading a couple of our extra seconds for some teams bench player but not much beyond that. Quite possible they don't do anything at all.

[LeBowen]

Herb Jones is really worth 2 first round picks and Cam Johnson is worth Devin, Wesley + a 2nd rounder or two, Its just would the spurs make those moves ? Probably not.

Agreed. I'd be beyond surprised if we actually make any moves other than hopefully upgrade Collins to actual NBA level backup big.


I can see them trading a couple of our extra seconds for some teams bench player but not much beyond that.

Actually, I'd like to see one or two those moves. We have 18 SRPs (probably 20 because CHA pick won't convey) over the next 6 drafts.
PATFO should be hunting for more Champagnies because there are a lot of incompetent teams out there and we can surely get a couple more legit rotation pieces for cheap. It's just about finding them.

As for bigger moves, I'd actually want to do the big one first.
The more I watch our team, the more I'm convinced that we'd instantly go to the next level if we had someone who constantly collapses defenses and gets to the rim with ease.
Fox would be a perfect target, let's just hope Kings fail this season and he rejects the extension.

[exstatic]

Agreed. I'd be beyond surprised if we actually make any moves other than hopefully upgrade Collins to actual NBA level backup big.



Actually, I'd like to see one or two those moves. We have 18 SRPs (probably 20 because CHA pick won't convey) over the next 6 drafts.
PATFO should be hunting for more Champagnies because there are a lot of incompetent teams out there and we can surely get a couple more legit rotation pieces for cheap. It's just about finding them.

As for bigger moves, I'd actually want to do the big one first.
The more I watch our team, the more I'm convinced that we'd instantly go to the next level if we had someone who constantly collapses defenses and gets to the rim with ease.
Fox would be a perfect target, let's just hope Kings fail this season and he rejects the extension.

It’s actually 15 according to spotrac’s future picks owed page, and that includes the likely CHA SRPs.

[LeBowen]

It’s actually 15 according to spotrac’s future picks owed page, and that includes the likely CHA SRPs.

2025: SAS, CHI (2)
2026: SAS, OKC/DAL/PHI, IND/MIA, NOLA/POR, UTA (5)
2027: SAS, OCK/HOU/IND/MIA (2)
2028: SAS, NOLA, MIN, DEN (4)
2029: SAS, NOLA, LAC (3)
2030: SAS, CLE (2)

That's from here:
https://fanspo.com/nba/teams/san-antonio-spurs/27/draft-picks

[exstatic]

2025: SAS, CHI (2)
2026: SAS, OKC/DAL/PHI, IND/MIA, NOLA/POR, UTA (5)
2027: SAS, OCK/HOU/IND/MIA (2)
2028: SAS, NOLA, MIN, DEN (4)
2029: SAS, NOLA, LAC (3)
2030: SAS, CLE (2)

That's from here:
https://fanspo.com/nba/teams/san-antonio-spurs/27/draft-picks

Rookie mistake. I forgot to count our own picks. :lol

[Seventyniner]

https://www.theringer.com/2024/12/16/nba/nba-trade-rumors-jimmy-butler-nicola-vucevic
NBA Kram Session: An Early Trade Season Deep Dive
I’ll end with one trade proposal from a potential seller that hasn’t been discussed much leading into trade season: the Spurs, who are 13-13 and straddling the line between pushing for a play-in spot in Victor Wembanyama’s second season and biding their time because they’re not quite ready yet. Might the Spurs trade Harrison Barnes to Dallas for a pick or two?

The Mavericks are legitimate title contenders, but they could use another big wing behind P.J. Washington, whom they acquired at last year’s deadline. Maxi Kleber has clearly lost a few steps and is averaging a meager 1.7 points per game, and Kleber plus third-string center Dwight Powell plus injured guard Dante Exum add up to a nearly perfect match for Barnes’s salary. Barnes doesn’t need the ball much—his usage rate is at a career low in San Antonio—but he can still be effective when called upon, with a 43 percent 3-point stroke this season and a recent Player of the Week award on his mantel. And Barnes-to-Dallas would be a pleasant homecoming for the former Maverick after his awkward departure (https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25941838/mavericks-trade-harrison-barnes-kings-justin-jackson-zach-randolph) via an in-season trade six seasons ago.

[poopbox]

Nah this roster still needs more young talent coming in to grow with wemby.This group of young guys we got aint it.Bad choice
to keep investing in wesley,keldon and branham ect.Waste of money and time.Everybody knew execpt this dumb front office that they
did not fit with wemby or were anything special.Not sure why the front office values them so high.

All the more reason to try and trade them for something useful.

[quentin_compson]

Herb Jones is really worth 2 first round picks and Cam Johnson is worth Devin, Wesley + a 2nd rounder or two, Its just would the spurs make those moves ? Probably not. The spurs usually make incremental moves rather than a big move. So much for a blockbuster trade from the spurs. I can see them trading a couple of our extra seconds for some teams bench player but not much beyond that. Quite possible they don't do anything at all.

Hell no, he isn't. To me, that is overstating the value of Cam Johnson and severely underestimating the value of Vassell, even right now.

[spurraider21]

Cam Johnson is a good player but he's also turning 29 this season and we've basically already seen the best version of him, which no doubt, is a good NBA starter

Vassell turned 24 in August, and while he's not playing particularly well now, has already played at "good NBA starter level" for much of the last two years when healthy, even if his defense hasn't been as good as it should be

[Pauleta14]

Players often waive kickers when they get traded to their preferred destinations. They don't when they get dumped to tanking teams. Barnes waived his when he was joining

$4.5M/year is a lot tho to just waive...^^


I wouldn't trade healthy and consistent Devin, but if he can't get his shit together this season...
But I'd rather save him for potential Fox trade. We could get Cam for Keldon and a pick or two.

same

[LeBowen]

There are several rumors about MPJ being shopped around, I think Spurs should be all over this. It might look like a bad idea initially, so let me try to convince you.

1) While he is overpaid, his contracts ends in 2027, just before Wemby's extension kicks in. His 36-38-40 million up until then wouldn't be an issue at all.
2) Back issues in his youth probably limited his ceiling, but he's missed just 1 game since the start of last season.
3) We desperately need an efficent high volume shooter on the wing. MPJ is a career 41% (!!!) 3pt shooter on 6 attempts. As consistent as it gets across all seasons.
4) He's also a formiddable rebounder. Legit 6'10, averaging 7 rebounds over the past two seasons.
5) While he was a black hole early on in his career, he's doubled his assists this season and took a huge leap in that department.
6) Not a great defender, but not a negative, either. Perfectly fine as a team defender with his size.
7) Works with any gameplan and lineup. Perfect wing pair for Jeremy, him and Champagnie would maybe even enable those Castle/Jeremy lineups.
8) He's a high character guy with plenty of experience and only 26. His numbers don't drop in the playoffs.
9) Most important thing - he's available. If you go back to this summer and that topic with the list of available wings, it's slim pickings. Ridciulously difficult to find an elite shooter taller than 6'7 who wouldn't cost a ton of assets.

If he's available for cheap, PATFO must react.
Denver obviously wants depth and long-term flexibility, Keldon+Barnes+2 FRPs would be the best offer they'll get.
Veteran on a short deal, bench wing on a team friendly deal that's easy to move and two picks would go a long way when it comes to adding more help.
Just to be clear, if they want those ATL picks, I'd offer just one. Two mediocre picks or a good one.


If Nuggets trade MPJ for Cam+DFS, then we go deal with the Nets, but you get the point.

[Seventyniner]

The Nuggets could be a decent landing spot for Vassell in a MPJ trade, but if the Nuggets are primarily looking for cap flexibility rather than trying to win now then it doesn't make sense to include him.

[SpursBills]

Maybe 3 team trade with chicago

nuggets get lavine
spurs get mpj
Chicago gets keldon (tank commander), any other contracts to make the numbers work, their own pick back to allow them to tank, and like the hornets fake first, and a bunch of seconds

Tall wing high volume shooter does seem to be the avenue to play both Sochan and castle together though, so I’m all for this idea

[scott]

I wouldn't trade healthy and consistent Devin


You speak of mythical creatures...

[scott]

2025: SAS, CHI (2)
2026: SAS, OKC/DAL/PHI, IND/MIA, NOLA/POR, UTA (5)
2027: SAS, OCK/HOU/IND/MIA (2)
2028: SAS, NOLA, MIN, DEN (4)
2029: SAS, NOLA, LAC (3)
2030: SAS, CLE (2)

That's from here:
https://fanspo.com/nba/teams/san-antonio-spurs/27/draft-picks

If we trade away all of those picks for a player today, how will we trade them away for cash later?

[rascal]

Herb Jones is really worth 2 first round picks and Cam Johnson is worth Devin, Wesley + a 2nd rounder or two, Its just would the spurs make those moves ? Probably not. The spurs usually make incremental moves rather than a big move. So much for a blockbuster trade from the spurs. I can see them trading a couple of our extra seconds for some teams bench player but not much beyond that. Quite possible they don't do anything at all.

If the Spurs do nothing then they aren't serious about making the playoffs this year.

[CGD]

If the Spurs do nothing then they aren't serious about making the playoffs this year.

Think their goal is play-in, which they can compete for as currently constructed. Then next year they get some people off the bus that really need to move on, and add others.

[tbdog]

Porter for Collins, Johnson

Then

Collins, Johnson and Saric for Lavine works financially.

[Mal]

Spurs should not help Chicago tank

[tbdog]

Spurs should not help Chicago tank

They will tank regardless. Gravity will take over soon.

[exstatic]

They will tank regardless. Gravity will take over soon.

People keep saying that,but we’re 1/3 into the Spurs/NBA season after tonight’s game, and if no one takes Lavine and Vooch off their hands, they WILL be in the playin in the shit East. Neither one is worth their contracts, so they’ll be tough to shed in the 2nd apron era. They might be able to shed Vooch next summer as an ending contract, but they’re probably stuck with Lavine.

[$pursDynasty]

I would love to trade a few of our excess picks for an elite defensive player (Herb Jones) on our roster that we haven't had since the nephew. It can be done without losing any player assets on roster now.

[exstatic]

I would love to trade a few of our excess picks for an elite defensive player (Herb Jones) on our roster that we haven't had since the nephew. It can be done without losing any player assets on roster now.

Supposedly, he’s not on the trade list, just BI, Zion, and McCollum.

[$pursDynasty]

Supposedly, he’s not on the trade list, just BI, Zion, and McCollum.

he's the one I want (Herb) they can keep those three

[scott]

I would love to trade a few of our excess picks for an elite defensive player (Herb Jones) on our roster that we haven't had since the nephew. It can be done without losing any player assets on roster now.

Herb and Trey Murphy III are the players to want from NOP, they are also the players that NOP wants to keep. Will be costly.

[LeBowen]

Herb and Trey Murphy III are the players to want from NOP, they are also the players that NOP wants to keep. Will be costly.

Am I crazy to think that Herb kind of wouldn't fit with our roster?
He's one of the best defenders in the league, but if we plan on keeping and starting both Castle and Jeremy, our offense would be really lacking.
Herb is more or less Champagnie on offense.
Carer 36% shooter on 2.8 attempts. His best season was 41%, but on just 3.6 attempts.
10/4/2 career averages.

Amazing role player, but has no self-creation whatsoever.
If we're going with Castle/Devin/?/Jeremy/Wemby lineup for the future, we need some serious firepower at ? forward position. Whether it be a SF or preferrably a Markkanen type player. (yeah, I can't let it go)

If we replace Devin with let's say Fox and decide to go with two playmakers route, then Herb would fit way better. But if Castle/Devin is our guard duo, we'll need more creation. Unless Wemby actually becomes a 7'4 KD.

[scott]

Am I crazy to think that Herb kind of wouldn't fit with our roster?
He's one of the best defenders in the league, but if we plan on keeping and starting both Castle and Jeremy, our offense would be really lacking.
Herb is more or less Champagnie on offense.
Carer 36% shooter on 2.8 attempts. His best season was 41%, but on just 3.6 attempts.
10/4/2 career averages.

Amazing role player, but has no self-creation whatsoever.
If we're going with Castle/Devin/?/Jeremy/Wemby lineup for the future, we need some serious firepower at ? forward position. Whether it be a SF or preferrably a Markkanen type player. (yeah, I can't let it go)

If we replace Devin with let's say Fox and decide to go with two playmakers route, then Herb would fit way better. But if Castle/Devin is our guard duo, we'll need more creation. Unless Wemby actually becomes a 7'4 KD.

Don't disagree, other than to say that I'm not ready to write Devin and Jeremy into the future starting 5 in permanent marker just yet. Wemby is obviously etched in stone, Castle is trending towards permanent marker status, but Devin and Jeremy I've still only got penciled in. They are the core only until someone better comes along.

That doesn't directly address your point about Herb (which is a good one), other than to say that I don't evaluate players based on how they fit with Devin or Jeremy (and part of that is because I think Jeremy can be a very versatile role player as a starter or off the bench).

Lastly, my Herb/Trey comment was more generally speaking, not necessarily for the Spurs. For the Spurs, Trey is definitely the guy I'd want. He's your Lauri type, who is still only 24, on the ascent, and on a screaming bargain of a contract (4/112 kicks in NEXT season)

[RC_Drunkford]

If MPJ is on the block, Spurs should be all over this. He‘s also the type of player who‘s numbers should go up significantly if you give him more usage

[spurraider21]

i mean yeah MPJ sounds great but why on earth would denver want the guys we'd have to send back to make the salaries work?

[LeBowen]

i mean yeah MPJ sounds great but why on earth would denver want the guys we'd have to send back to make the salaries work?

We'd obviously have to add a pick or two.
If Nets get MPJ for Cam+DFS they will have no interest in keeping him.
If Bulls trade Lavine for MPJ, we can give them their pick back.

[scott]

i mean yeah MPJ sounds great but why on earth would denver want the guys we'd have to send back to make the salaries work?

Would almost certainly have to be a 3-team trade. But the idea of Denver trading for and actually trying to play Keldon, Zollins and Branham in a meaningful game is hilarious. Like an SNL skit.

[LeBowen]

Would almost certainly have to be a 3-team trade. But the idea of Denver trading for and actually trying to play Keldon, Zollins and Branham in a meaningful game is hilarious. Like an SNL skit.

Tbh, they're playing Peyton Watson and Julian Strawther more than 20 minutes per game.
Saric and Deandre are their backup bigs.

Take out Jokic and Wemby, it's actually a 7 game series between these two teams.

[scott]

Tbh, they're playing Peyton Watson and Julian Strawther more than 20 minutes per game.
Saric and Deandre are their backup bigs.

Take out Jokic and Wemby, it's actually a 7 game series between these two teams.

Battle of the terrible benches.

Watson - 34th percentile in CraftedPlusMinus (but a good defender, 72nd percentile in CDPM)
Strawther - 5th percentile in CPM (almost Branham level bad 17th percentile COPM and 15th percentile CDPM)
Saric - 15th percentile in CPM
Jordan - 4th percentile in CPM

vs

Keldon - 11th percentile CPM
Zollins - 37th percentile in CPM
Branham - 1st percentile in CPM

A seven-game 3on3 series between these guys might kill the NBA

[100%duncan]

We have no one that Denver wants unfortunately. Which is why I didn't really take seriously the MPJ option in Scott's thread trade idea.



While we can, imagine this SL though:
Castle, Dev, MPJ, Sochan, Wemby. 2 bucket getters and 2 slashers surrounding Wemby.

[tbdog]

If MPJ is on the block, Spurs should be all over this. He‘s also the type of player who‘s numbers should go up significantly if you give him more usage

The problem with MPJ type of player, is he kinda the third best player in a championship team. Vassell is also of that ilk. Spurs really need to find that number 2. But again, Vic might be so good that we just need number 3s.

[exstatic]

i mean yeah MPJ sounds great but why on earth would denver want the guys we'd have to send back to make the salaries work?

To get off the second apron and give themselves some cap, roster, and trade flexibility. Right now, they can’t take back a single dollar more than they send out in trade. They also can’t aggregate any salaries in a trade.

[BackHome]

People keep saying that,but we’re 1/3 into the Spurs/NBA season after tonight’s game, and if no one takes Lavine and Vooch off their hands, they WILL be in the playin in the shit East. Neither one is worth their contracts, so they’ll be tough to shed in the 2nd apron era. They might be able to shed Vooch next summer as an ending contract, but they’re probably stuck with Lavine.

If they keep those two it is going to be a battle between the Pacers, Pistons, and Bulls for the 9th, 10th, and 11th position.

[scott]

Having some fun... yes, I know this is pretty unrealistic. It says failed, but Spotrac's trade machine says it passes at the deadline (but their screenshot tool doesn't work very well.

https://i.ibb.co/jVJCs0C/fanspo-nba-trade-machine-snap-12-20-2024-10-35-28-AM.png

I'm a big believer in Trey Murphy III... NOP has said he, Herb and Missi are "untouchable"... but everyone has their price, and I rule this fantasy kingdom...



DET gets paid an FRP to facilitate the deal

WAS takes a flyer on Zion and let's BI player junk ball to try to increase his value this offseason

Pelicans get rid of Zion and BI, but it costs them one of their Untouchables in Trey, they net 3 FRPs though (as the Spurs I'm willing to add one or even two more if necessary)

Spurs get a legit backup big, a promising wing in the exact archetype they need (who I believe has upside to be a star), and some bench shooting

[CGD]

^ wow the Wizards make out like bandits. Ingram and Zion for trash, nice!

[scott]

^ wow the Wizards make out like bandits. Ingram and Zion for trash, nice!

While I obviously recognize the above is fan fiction, I don't think that is all that unrealistic of value for Zion and BI. Zion is nothing more than a reclamation project at this point and NOP might be looking at just straight up waiving him this summer. WAS is actually one of the best places for him to try and resurrect his career because they can afford to be patient, but I'm sure Zion would hate it.

BI on the other hand is strictly a temporary landing spot until he hits FA this summer. The bigger benefit for WAS might be being able to get something back in a S&T for him in the summer. WAS gives up one valuable unprotected pick, Jonas and Kuzma (who in theory should have some positive value to someone... maybe?). I think this is pretty this is pretty fair from their POV.

[ginobilized]

I love the creativity here, Scott!

We would very likely win a play-in with that squad if it gels. Might make the playoffs outright if it really clicks. Spurs probably will not mess with chemistry and fueling the fear factor of trades to this developing young team. TMIII is about perfect for our needs and timeline. He's at the top of my wish list, much more than Cam Johnson, who's not too shabby. Valanciunas for 3 years feels kind of iffy. I will say, seeing that dude play in-person, he is huge. Legit 3 feet+ wide and strong as hell. Might actually be able to play with Wemby sparingly. The offensive/defensive versatility with this team would be pretty amazing.

[Frenchfred]

I like that trade for the Spurs. Murphy III would be a great addition.

Do you think that the Spurs could simply do: Keldon +Barnes + Collins+pick for Zion + Murphy?

They have to take the bloated contract of Zion but if they are lucky, they can make something out of him, the Spurs know how to handle minutes, and they get their SF for years to come.

NO gets rid of Zion, get two expiring contracts plus Keldon for one more year on a friendly contract and picks to start rebuilding.

[scott]

I like that trade for the Spurs. Murphy III would be a great addition.

Do you think that the Spurs could simply do: Keldon +Barnes + Collins+pick for Zion + Murphy?

They have to take the bloated contract of Zion but if they are lucky, they can make something out of him, the Spurs know how to handle minutes, and they get their SF for years to come.

NO gets rid of Zion, get two expiring contracts plus Keldon for one more year on a friendly contract and picks to start rebuilding.

NOP has started that Murphy (along with Herb and Missi) are "Untouchable". It would take a grandfather offer to pry Trey away from NOP, they aren't going to give him to us for that. Zion isn't really a huge positive asset for them, but he's also not a negative since his contract will become non-guaranteed and they can just simply waive him this offseason. For this reason, and because of the "upside", he's probably a positive asset (though not a huge one). He might be able to yield them one FRP, but at a minimum a handful of SRPs or a useful young player back.

My idea is really highly unrealistic... we might have to actually add two more FRPs to what I posted to turn it into reality.

[Frenchfred]

NOP has started that Murphy (along with Herb and Missi) are "Untouchable". It would take a grandfather offer to pry Trey away from NOP, they aren't going to give him to us for that. Zion isn't really a huge positive asset for them, but he's also not a negative since his contract will become non-guaranteed and they can just simply waive him this offseason. For this reason, and because of the "upside", he's probably a positive asset (though not a huge one). He might be able to yield them one FRP, but at a minimum a handful of SRPs or a useful young player back.

My idea is really highly unrealistic... we might have to actually add two more FRPs to what I posted to turn it into reality.

EDIT

Just read about Zion's contract clause; I agree with you he is a positive. Many teams would risk a FRP for him, I know I would

[tbdog]

EDIT

Just read about Zion's contract clause; I agree with you he is a positive. Many teams would risk a FRP for him, I know I would

Looking around, I see Lakers.. Kings, and Atlanta, might be interested. Unsure about pacers, Hornets, raptors, Bulls. Not many west teams, maybe Clippers might be interested.

[baseline bum]

Would love to see the Spurs be buyers and send the lesser of the Spurs/Hawks 2025 + the two Hornets seconds + Collins for Cam Johnson

[baseline bum]

I'm a big believer in Trey Murphy III

JFC I hope so if you're giving away three firsts for him

[Dejounte]

Praying for Jimmy Butler tbh

[Bruno]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6010644/2024/12/21/deaaron-fox-kings-contract-trade-nba-spurs/


Meanwhile, rival executives are monitoring the Fox situation closely and league sources say one team in particular — the San Antonio Spurs — is positioning itself to pursue the Houston native as a possible partner for Victor Wembanyama, should Fox become available. Barring a significant Kings turnaround, others are surely close behind.

[LeBowen]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6010644/2024/12/21/deaaron-fox-kings-contract-trade-nba-spurs/

I'll speak it into existance much like Barnes.

[scott]

prayingfox.gif

[Davidicus]

His wife is from SA

[scott]

JFC I hope so if you're giving away three firsts for him

A pick that will end up probably 16-18 (ATL25), a pick that may never convey (CHI25) and a pick that should be in the late 20s (SA27).

Would do it in a heartbeat.

[itzsoweezee]

Fox to San Antonio would be perfect.

Trading for Jimmy Butler, however, would be just straight garbage. The guy hardly plays, his stats are very pedestrian, he’s old as fuck, and he wants a huge contract extension. No thanks!

[LeBowen]

If we're actually serious about getting Fox, I just don't see a way to keep Devin.
Not because of Kings' demands, but roster construction and cap situation.

As for Fox, while he's worth his current max, would he be worth a 30% max on our roster?

[scott]

If we're actually serious about getting Fox, I just don't see a way to keep Devin.
Not because of Kings' demands, but roster construction and cap situation.

As for Fox, while he's worth his current max, would he be worth a 30% max on our roster?

Its a yes for me, dawg

[LeBowen]

Its a yes for me, dawg

Actually he'd be eligible for a supermax only if he makes all-NBA this season, which doesn't look likely since Kings are garbage.

I wouldn't offer more than Devin+Tre and 3 FRPs. If they want '26 or '27 Hawks picks, then just those two.

[Dejounte]

Fox is my favorite pg in the league. That would be a dream come true. Trade Vassell for him tbh

[scott]

Actually he'd be eligible for a supermax only if he makes all-NBA this season, which doesn't look likely since Kings are garbage.

I wouldn't offer more than Devin+Tre and 3 FRPs. If they want '26 or '27 Hawks picks, then just those two.

Max will still be 30% of the cap. His supermax would be 35%.

But, I'm in at 30%

[baseline bum]

A pick that will end up probably 16-18 (ATL25), a pick that may never convey (CHI25) and a pick that should be in the late 20s (SA27).

Would do it in a heartbeat.

At least protect the picks or make them the lesser of Spurs/Hawks in 25 and 27 so you're not giving away a top 4 pick if say Trae Young gets injured this year and the Hawks crash and burn or Wemby gets hurt in 26-27. Two unprotected firsts and a lightly protected Chicago first for a role player is nuts.

[scott]

Fox for Vassell is an easy trade, IMO. Castle can easily slide into that SG role (harkening back to Dejounte's Two PG At the Time Time thread), and Fox is better both as a scorer and a defender compared to Devin. Fox ranks 96th percentile in CraftedOPM and 59th percentile in CraftedDPM. He's 94th percentile in CPM (the overall ranking). Compare that to Devin, who's 70th percentile in COPM, 13th percentile in CDPM and 36th percentile CPM.

We would lose shooting, however, Devin is an 87th percentile shooter gauged by CraftedNBA's ShootingQuality index, compared to 53rd percentile for Fox. We would need to really have a deadeye (no disrespect to Champ) at SF, and honestly Jeremy might need to be a bench player as someone like Barnes is a better fit (which also means you'd need to find another Barnes as Harrison ages)

[scott]

At least protect the picks or make them the lesser of Spurs/Hawks in 25 and 27 so you're not giving away a top 4 pick if say Trae Young gets injured this year and the Hawks crash and burn or Wemby gets hurt in 26-27. Two unprotected firsts and a lightly protected Chicago first for a role player is nuts.

Trey Murphy III is not a role player (he's a better player than Devin, for example, and on a better contract extension that hasn't even kicked in yet), and as it stands NOP is probably saying no (it would require even more picks).

NOP isn't doing this deal either way, so it's not worth wasting too much brainpower on, but we aren't going to get good talent by sending out protected picks.

[baseline bum]

Fox for Vassell is an easy trade, IMO. Castle can easily slide into that SG role (harkening back to Dejounte's Two PG At the Time Time thread), and Fox is better both as a scorer and a defender compared to Devin. Fox ranks 96th percentile in CraftedOPM and 59th percentile in CraftedDPM. He's 94th percentile in CPM (the overall ranking). Compare that to Devin, who's 70th percentile in COPM, 13th percentile in CDPM and 36th percentile CPM.

We would lose shooting, however, Devin is an 87th percentile shooter gauged by CraftedNBA's ShootingQuality index, compared to 53rd percentile for Fox. We would need to really have a deadeye (no disrespect to Champ) at SF, and honestly Jeremy might need to be a bench player as someone like Barnes is a better fit (which also means you'd need to find another Barnes as Harrison ages)

If the Spurs could get Fox for Vassell I'm going hard after Cam Johnson to fill out the starting lineup.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Fox for Vassell is an easy trade, IMO. Castle can easily slide into that SG role (harkening back to Dejounte's Two PG At the Time Time thread), and Fox is better both as a scorer and a defender compared to Devin. Fox ranks 96th percentile in CraftedOPM and 59th percentile in CraftedDPM. He's 94th percentile in CPM (the overall ranking). Compare that to Devin, who's 70th percentile in COPM, 13th percentile in CDPM and 36th percentile CPM.

We would lose shooting, however, Devin is an 87th percentile shooter gauged by CraftedNBA's ShootingQuality index, compared to 53rd percentile for Fox. We would need to really have a deadeye (no disrespect to Champ) at SF, and honestly Jeremy might need to be a bench player as someone like Barnes is a better fit (which also means you'd need to find another Barnes as Harrison ages)

Folks forget that Vassel is coming off an injury and is easing into his role since then. Last year, he was in the 75th percentile in EPM on both defense and offense IIRC. I think the Spurs would get a chance to trade for Fox in the offseason rather than at the trade deadline and they should try their best to retain Vassell. Johnson OTOH should be expendable.

[baseline bum]

Trey Murphy III is not a role player (he's a better player than Devin, for example, and on a better contract extension that hasn't even kicked in yet), and as it stands NOP is probably saying no (it would require even more picks).

NOP isn't doing this deal either way, so it's not worth wasting too much brainpower on, but we aren't going to get good talent by sending out protected picks.

Devin's a role player too. I'm not even sold Vassell is better than Champagnie given what a defensive turnstile he is. Murphy doesn't shoot nearly well enough to be worth two unprotected firsts and third lightly protected one.

[LeBowen]

If the Spurs could get Fox for Vassell I'm going hard after Cam Johnson to fill out the starting lineup.

Why not Markkanen? :hungry:

If we get Fox, we could use a 6th man combo guard who can play with both him and Castle, three man guard rotation would be enough.
Jeremy, Champagnie, one of Cam/MPJ/Markkanen and a rookie for wing rotation.
Valanciunas or a similar reliable backup for Wemby if Bassey doesn't show he can play consistent minutes without fouling out.

If we're going with Fox route, no way Fox/Castle/Jeremy would be able to start together, it would be Champ and a trade acquisition.

[KingKev]

Us making Vassell untouchable is almost as silly as Austin Reeves and Kuminga/Podz being deal breakers lol

[scott]

Folks forget that Vassel is coming off an injury and is easing into his role since then. Last year, he was in the 75th percentile in EPM on both defense and offense IIRC. I think the Spurs would get a chance to trade for Fox in the offseason rather than at the trade deadline and they should try their best to retain Vassell. Johnson OTOH should be expendable.

I don't have a DunksandThrees subscription, but I'm willing to bet that Devin was not 75th percentile in Defensive EPM last year. He's gotten worse on defense every year he's been in the league. EPM tracked pretty closely with CraftedPlusMinus (which we can pull up for free, which is why I use it a lot), which has Devin at a -0.8 last year, which would place him as a below median defensive player (which is supported by every other defensive metric available).

I'd also be very skeptical of the notion that Devin rated out as a 75th percentile Offensive EPM player last year, since his predictive EPM only ranks him as 70th percentile (which lines up with his Crafted OPM).

Also... Devin is always coming off an injury.

[scott]

Devin's a role player too. I'm not even sold Vassell is better than Champagnie given what a defensive turnstile he is. Murphy doesn't shoot nearly well enough to be worth two unprotected firsts and third lightly protected one.

94th percentile shooter in Crafted Shooting Quality Index. Shot 40% from 3 two years ago on 6.3 3PA/g, 38% last year on 7.8 3PA/g. Off to a slow start this year, but don't be fooled by recency bias. There is a reason NOP has him as an untouchable.

[scott]

Why not Markkanen? :hungry:

If we get Fox, we could use a 6th man combo guard who can play with both him and Castle, three man guard rotation would be enough.
Jeremy, Champagnie, one of Cam/MPJ/Markkanen and a rookie for wing rotation.
Valanciunas or a similar reliable backup for Wemby if Bassey doesn't show he can play consistent minutes without fouling out.

If we're going with Fox route, no way Fox/Castle/Jeremy would be able to start together, it would be Champ and a trade acquisition.

You know I love Lauri... and I also love Fox... but getting them both would be extremely expensive and they're both 27. I'm not sure I want to blow our entire pick load on two 27 year olds each costing 30% of the cap. Vic's extension will kick in the 2027-28 season, when Mark will have two years left on his Max deal and Fox will have 3 years left.

[Dejounte]

27 year old is not old breh. It’s prime time as we should be sending Wemby to prime time right now to get that much needed experience

[Bruno]

I think Fox is more a target for this summer than at the trade deadline. Fox will give a shot this season to Kings with DDR, but, if it doesn't work, he might say to them this summer that he likely won't re-sign with them. Kings will face the risk of losing him for nothing in 2026.

In this scenario, Spurs will have more leverage if they have enough cap space in 2026 to sign Fox at a max contract. Spurs might not want to trade at this deadline for contracts that goes beyond 2026 for that reason.

[Dejounte]

Why not Markkanen? :hungry:

If we get Fox, we could use a 6th man combo guard who can play with both him and Castle, three man guard rotation would be enough.
Jeremy, Champagnie, one of Cam/MPJ/Markkanen and a rookie for wing rotation.
Valanciunas or a similar reliable backup for Wemby if Bassey doesn't show he can play consistent minutes without fouling out.

If we're going with Fox route, no way Fox/Castle/Jeremy would be able to start together, it would be Champ and a trade acquisition.

those guys are all hoopers. Hoopers find a way to make it work

[Davidicus]

I hate to say it but agreed here that Champ makes Devin expendable for someone like Fox. Usage switches from Vassell to Fox and Champ fills the void as a role player. And Devins age and contract has to be attractive for Sac - could still be competitive now and aligns with their Murray future.

The question is what on top of DV gets it done. Tre Jones makes the #s work, and then how many picks depends on how ugly this gets with Sactown imo.

[LeBowen]

I hate to say it but agreed here that Champ makes Devin expendable for someone like Fox. Usage switches from Vassell to Fox and Champ fills the void as a role player. And Devins age and contract has to be attractive for Sac - could still be competitive now and aligns with their Murray future.

The question is what on top of DV gets it done. Tre Jones makes the #s work, and then how many picks depends on how ugly this gets with Sactown imo.

It's been said already and Bruno just repeated it, but Kings won't have much leverage in the summer because they'll have an unhappy player on expiring deal.

If we're talking about a trade happening before the deadline, maybe taking Huerter would add some value for the Kings because they want to get rid of him.
Devin+Tre for Fox+Huerter.
Kings swap returned and three more picks on top.

Then we send Collins and seconds for Valanciunas, Keldon and FRP for Cam Johnson. Would be a legit roster right away.

Right now we're at $149M with $35M being taken by Keldon and Collins, two negative players.
Devin is the highest earner on the roster and his $29M have contributed to more or less nothing due to injuries, was a big factor in just a couple of games.
And we're still above .500.

Turn those $64M into legit contributors and we're a second round exit team already.

[baseline bum]

94th percentile shooter in Crafted Shooting Quality Index. Shot 40% from 3 two years ago on 6.3 3PA/g, 38% last year on 7.8 3PA/g. Off to a slow start this year, but don't be fooled by recency bias. There is a reason NOP has him as an untouchable.

It was one year. His other three are 38%, 38%, and 34% so far. For that much draft capital I want an absolute elite three point shooter. I don't put much stock into NOP thinking he's untouchable after they thought so little of Dyson Daniels. I'd love to have Murphy but only if I can put some protection on those two Spurs and Hawks picks.

[baseline bum]

I don't have a DunksandThrees subscription, but I'm willing to bet that Devin was not 75th percentile in Defensive EPM last year. He's gotten worse on defense every year he's been in the league. EPM tracked pretty closely with CraftedPlusMinus (which we can pull up for free, which is why I use it a lot), which has Devin at a -0.8 last year, which would place him as a below median defensive player (which is supported by every other defensive metric available).

I'd also be very skeptical of the notion that Devin rated out as a 75th percentile Offensive EPM player last year, since his predictive EPM only ranks him as 70th percentile (which lines up with his Crafted OPM).

Also... Devin is always coming off an injury.

Found an article saying Devin was 21st percentile crafted DPM for 23-24; too bad CraftedNBA doesn't give their crafted stats for previous years.

https://lastwordonsports.com/basketball/2024/09/19/devin-vassell-continues-to-rise-up-top-player-rankings/#:~:text=His%20Crafted%20Defensive%20Plus%2DMinus, many%20hoped%20he%20would%20become.

[Spursfanfromafar]

I don't have a DunksandThrees subscription, but I'm willing to bet that Devin was not 75th percentile in Defensive EPM last year. He's gotten worse on defense every year he's been in the league. EPM tracked pretty closely with CraftedPlusMinus (which we can pull up for free, which is why I use it a lot), which has Devin at a -0.8 last year, which would place him as a below median defensive player (which is supported by every other defensive metric available).

I'd also be very skeptical of the notion that Devin rated out as a 75th percentile Offensive EPM player last year, since his predictive EPM only ranks him as 70th percentile (which lines up with his Crafted OPM).

Also... Devin is always coming off an injury.

I don't have access to EPM archives. But luckily had a similar discussion with SpursBills in May this year. And here's the post -

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288028&page=40&p=11069685&viewfull=1#post11069685

OEPM - 82nd percentile and DEPM - 72nd percentile. Both are good numbers. That was roughly the equivalent of a Mikal Bridges last season as well.

Vassell's latest injury, again IIRC was a metatarsal related one. Its a very fragile injury and requires close care to recover.

He has started in his first game since coming up and signs add that he will get back to the levels shown last year. Let's see.

[baseline bum]

Why not Markkanen? :hungry:

If we get Fox, we could use a 6th man combo guard who can play with both him and Castle, three man guard rotation would be enough.
Jeremy, Champagnie, one of Cam/MPJ/Markkanen and a rookie for wing rotation.
Valanciunas or a similar reliable backup for Wemby if Bassey doesn't show he can play consistent minutes without fouling out.

If we're going with Fox route, no way Fox/Castle/Jeremy would be able to start together, it would be Champ and a trade acquisition.

Don't really see the point for Utah to trade Markannen now; the whole reason was to help their tank this year.

[scott]

I don't have access to EPM archives. But luckily had a similar discussion with SpursBills (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=18470) in May this year. And here's the post -

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288028&page=40&p=11069685&viewfull=1#post11069685

OEPM - 82nd percentile and DEPM - 72nd percentile. Both are good numbers. That was roughly the equivalent of a Mikal Bridges last season as well.

Vassell's latest injury, again IIRC was a metatarsal related one. Its a very fragile injury and requires close care to recover.

He has started in his first game since coming up and signs add that he will get back to the levels shown last year. Let's see.

Yes, those are great numbers... but sorry I don't believe them, because they fly in the face of every other metric available to us, including the DARKO numbers in the post you were quoting. In no way am I suggesting that you are purposely being misleading, but I suspect maybe you got numbers you were looking at mixed up, because there is nothing else we can point at to suggest Devin was a top 30% defensive player last season.

[LeBowen]

Don't really see the point for Utah to trade Markannen now; the whole reason was to help their tank this year.

Markkanen trade suggestion is my own 20131 pick.

Thinking out loud Fox is a player who can't be stopped at getting to the rim, something we lack the most. Yeah, our shooting is questionable at times and we definitely need at least a couple more legit shooters, but most games we lose happen because our offense grinds to a halt since right now noone is reliable at getting to the rim.
Castle has hit a rookie wall, Keldon is a tunnel vision driver and noone else can even get into the paint.

Wemby obviously wants to play on the perimeter more and it's already hard enough to guard him. If we get the fastest player in the league to attack the rim, there's no defense against that with good spacing around them.
Fox is at 61% in the paint so far this season, 167/272 and is 6 FTA per game. While playing with a center who rarely takes 3s and DDR.

Fox/Champ/Cam/Wemby lineup would be absolutely deadly. We start Castle or Jeremy depending on the matchup until one of them becomes a consistent shooter.
CP3 is why I don't see it happening before summer. He seems to be fully invested into this roster, I doubt PATFO would relegate him to the bench and 15-20mpg. Sounds dumb, but that's how it is.
It would be great if he accepted a bench role and stayed one more season.

[scott]

Markkanen trade suggestion is my own 20131 pick.

Thinking out loud Fox is a player who can't be stopped at getting to the rim, something we lack the most. Yeah, our shooting is questionable at times and we definitely need at least a couple more legit shooters, but most games we lose happen because our offense grinds to a halt since right now noone is reliable at getting to the rim.
Castle has hit a rookie wall, Keldon is a tunnel vision driver and noone else can even get into the paint.

Wemby obviously wants to play on the perimeter more and it's already hard enough to guard him. If we get the fastest player in the league to attack the rim, there's no defense against that with good spacing around them.
Fox is at 61% in the paint so far this season, 167/272 and is 6 FTA per game. While playing with a center who rarely takes 3s and DDR.

Fox/Champ/Cam/Wemby lineup would be absolutely deadly. We start Castle or Jeremy depending on the matchup until one of them becomes a consistent shooter.
CP3 is why I don't see it happening before summer. He seems to be fully invested into this roster, I doubt PATFO would relegate him to the bench and 15-20mpg. Sounds dumb, but that's how it is.
It would be great if he accepted a bench role and stayed one more season.

But, tbh, I think PAFTO would be perfectly fine starting CP3 and Fox next to each other in the scenario where Vassell is the one who moves out. You know they love their midget backcourts (CP3/Tre minutes this season as evidence). Not suggesting this is the wise thing... but it can't be fully discounted. And it would allow you to start Jeremy next to Barnes and have Champ off the bench and run a 9 man rotation with supplemental Tre/Blake/Mamu minutes as needed.

CP3/Fox/Sochan/Barnes/Wemby
Castle/Champ/Keldon/Bassey

[scott]

It was one year. His other three are 38%, 38%, and 34% so far. For that much draft capital I want an absolute elite three point shooter. I don't put much stock into NOP thinking he's untouchable after they thought so little of Dyson Daniels. I'd love to have Murphy but only if I can put some protection on those two Spurs and Hawks picks.

You mean like Lauri Markkanen?

Lauri career 3P%: 37.6%
Trey career 3P%: 38.7%

Bookmark this for later.

[Dejounte]

If Fox gets here, Paul plays the same amount of minutes. Paul keeps saying he came to SA to play.

[Obstructed_View]

If Fox gets here, Paul plays the same amount of minutes. Paul keeps saying he came to SA to play.

Paul will be on a contender by the deadline, tbh.

[Dejounte]

Paul will be on a contender by the deadline, tbh.

Nahhhhhh

[Spursfanfromafar]

Yes, those are great numbers... but sorry I don't believe them, because they fly in the face of every other metric available to us, including the DARKO numbers in the post you were quoting. In no way am I suggesting that you are purposely being misleading, but I suspect maybe you got numbers you were looking at mixed up, because there is nothing else we can point at to suggest Devin was a top 30% defensive player last season.

I looked at EPM numbers the whole season last year (even wrote a scraper to periodically download data as sorting / searching wasn't available). The whole year Vassell's numbers were good. It was very good roughly this time last year - see here for e.g. - https://www.reddit.com/r/NBASpurs/comments/18ykodx/devin_vassells_metrics_over_his_career/

But his numbers regressed by the end of the season and of course he got injured too.

So I am not mixing anything up, for sure.

I also know for a fact that NBA metrics folks rate EPM as the best advanced stat out there. LEBRON being next. Crafted NBA has a great interface and is a good site but I need to be convinced that their estimates are better than EPM. So far, no.

The larger point however is that Vassell can be a good two way player and there is still 3/4ths of the season to be played to see if he can get there again. He isn't a lost cause as you make out to be.

[scott]

Nahhhhhh

The contender will be us. :fro

[baseline bum]

You mean like Lauri Markkanen?

Lauri career 3P%: 37.6%
Trey career 3P%: 38.7%

Bookmark this for later.

It's different with a bigman IMO. Huge value in drawing opposing PF/C out to have to guard the three point line.

[John B]

Paul will be on a contender by the deadline, tbh.

CP3 will definitely be pushing for an upgrade of the team’s roster as he is committed to winning. But that’s a very short backcourt for both to be in the court together. That means a bigger/defensive Champ at 3 instead of Vassell makes better sense. Vassell becomes the odd man. While Castle gears up for his 2nd year.

I like Fox/Castle/Wemby for the future. That spells Big 3 all day. I might need to change my avatar :lol

[Dejounte]

CP3 will definitely be pushing for an upgrade of the team’s roster as he is committed to winning. But that’s a very short backcourt for both to be in the court together. That means a bigger/defensive Champ at 3 instead of Vassell makes better sense. Vassell becomes the odd man. While Castle gears up for his 2nd year.

I like Fox/Castle/Wemby for the future. That spells Big 3 all day. I might need to change my avatar :lol

You haven’t been paying attention at all tbh. Paul is committed to playing, not winning. He’s getting that here.

[scott]

I looked at EPM numbers the whole season last year (even wrote a scraper to periodically download data as sorting / searching wasn't available). The whole year Vassell's numbers were good. It was very good roughly this time last year - see here for e.g. - https://www.reddit.com/r/NBASpurs/comments/18ykodx/devin_vassells_metrics_over_his_career/

But his numbers regressed by the end of the season and of course he got injured too.

So I am not mixing anything up, for sure.

I also know for a fact that NBA metrics folks rate EPM as the best advanced stat out there. LEBRON being next. Crafted NBA has a great interface and is a good site but I need to be convinced that their estimates are better than EPM. So far, no.

The larger point however is that Vassell can be a good two way player and there is still 3/4ths of the season to be played to see if he can get there again. He isn't a lost cause as you make out to be.

I'm a huge fan of EPM, and would use it primarily here if I paid for D&3, so need need to convince me there.

But sorry no, I don't believe for a second that Devin rated 70th percentile in D-EPM through his first 22 games last year, considering the following things:

1. Through Dec 21, Devin had played in 22 of the 68 games he played all season (25%)
2. The Spurs were 4-23 and giving up 122.2 pts/game and were one of the worst defensive teams in the league
3. Devin finished with a DBPM of -0.9, a DRtg of 118, a CraftedDPM of -0.8, a DDARKO of -0.9, and DDRIP of -0.4, and a -0.97 D-LEBRON. Either somehow D-EPM got completely divorced for all of these other metrics (highly unlikely) or Devin was somehow an elite defender on one of the worst teams of the league and then he got worse while the rest of the team got better the remaining 75% of the season (even less likely)
4. If we compare the EPM data we have for free, it roughly tracks with CraftedPlusMinus and LEBRON data. 2024-25 EPM for Devin is 74th percentile O-EPM, 12th percentile, D-EPM, 58th percentile overall EPM. Compare that to Crafted for this season: 74%, 8%, 36% and LEBRON: 73%, 21%, 48%.

The very idea that Devin was a 70th percentile defender 25% of the way into last season just does not compute.

But since you brought up LEBRON, and we can get those stats, here is a plot of Devin's career LEBRON progression, both with values relative to every other player in the league, and shown as a percentile of the league. This confirms what we've been saying: he's a very good offensive player (close to top 25% in the league) but pretty poor defensive player and has gotten progressively worse throughout his career.

https://i.ibb.co/168rh1q/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-2.png

https://i.ibb.co/NyM2xT6/LEBRONComparison-Screenshot-3.png

[scott]

It's different with a bigman IMO. Huge value in drawing opposing PF/C out to have to guard the three point line.

Centers aren't guarding Lauri.

Murphy is a 6'8" and plays combo SF/PF, just like Lauri, though Lauri has a few extra inches.

Dude... it's perfectly fine to just admit you aren't familiar with Trey Murphy.

Edit: Murphy also plays defense. 81st percentile in D-EPM vs. 16th percentile for Lauri.

[scott]

I looked at EPM numbers the whole season last year (even wrote a scraper to periodically download data as sorting / searching wasn't available). The whole year Vassell's numbers were good. It was very good roughly this time last year - see here for e.g. - https://www.reddit.com/r/NBASpurs/comments/18ykodx/devin_vassells_metrics_over_his_career/

But his numbers regressed by the end of the season and of course he got injured too.

So I am not mixing anything up, for sure.

I also know for a fact that NBA metrics folks rate EPM as the best advanced stat out there. LEBRON being next. Crafted NBA has a great interface and is a good site but I need to be convinced that their estimates are better than EPM. So far, no.

The larger point however is that Vassell can be a good two way player and there is still 3/4ths of the season to be played to see if he can get there again. He isn't a lost cause as you make out to be.

Just clicked on your reddit link and see that Devin was a 91st (!!!) percentile defender in D-EPM. Let's go ahead and chalk that up as sample size bias, considering the mountain of contrary data in front of us :lol

I don't think Devin's a lost cause... but we should not fool ourselves into thinking his an elite defender. Just look at that career D-LEBRON progression

[exstatic]

It's different with a bigman IMO. Huge value in drawing opposing PF/C out to have to guard the three point line.

Big man standards for the three are also different. Everyone thinks of brook Lopez as a G/VG floor spacing big, and his career 3G mark is 35.

[Obstructed_View]

You haven’t been paying attention at all tbh. Paul is committed to playing, not winning. He’s getting that here.
That's a good point. Chris wants to pad his stats for the end of his career.

[exstatic]

That's a good point. Chris wants to pad his stats for the end of his career.

When he arrived, he had good to great shots at #2 overall assists and #2 overall steals, which he will probably get, too.

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVFKpAjdnQM

[cutewizard]

To trade or not to trade >>>

that is the question, hahahahahaha

[cutewizard]

Hope someday we get someone like Austin Reeves or Josh Giddey

[mo7888]

https://fanspo.com/nba/trades/xzZ9n-r-cQDywp

[CGD]

(Trade works)

HOU: Butler
MIA: Vassell; 2 Houston expirings
SAS: Thompson; Smith

It’s a huge bet on Amen being able to continue to improve his shooting (as he has this year), but the bbiq and defense are there. Do wonder if Castle now makes him redundant though? Smith is the ideal 3/4 next to Victor and Sochan for his ability to play D, stretch the floor, and not need the ball. Never cared for Sheppard but the deal work with him instead of Amen too.

[scott]

(Trade works)

HOU: Butler
MIA: Vassell; 2 Houston expirings
SAS: Thompson; Smith

It’s a huge bet on Amen being able to continue to improve his shooting (as he has this year), but the bbiq and defense are there. Do wonder if Castle now makes him redundant though? Smith is the ideal 3/4 next to Victor and Sochan for his ability to play D, stretch the floor, and not need the ball. Never cared for Sheppard but the deal work with him instead of Amen too.

Amen has been really fantastic this season, much to the chagrin of the haters, but I don't see any way for him, Castle and Sochan to co-exist on the same team. Also don't think Houston does this deal, but I'm not as in tune with their team.

[CGD]

Amen has been really fantastic this season, much to the chagrin of the haters, but I don't see any way for him, Castle and Sochan to co-exist on the same team. Also don't think Houston does this deal, but I'm not as in tune with their team.

Totally re the spacing, which is why it’s a big bet on 2 of those 3 improving enough on that side of the ball.

The trade also relies of two core assumptions:

1. Ime prevails on Rockets brass to cash in young guys for vets, which has been suggested is his disposition.

2. As has always been their way, Miami’s preference is to stay in the mix as opposed to rebuilding.

[mo7888]

(Trade works)

HOU: Butler
MIA: Vassell; 2 Houston expirings
SAS: Thompson; Smith

It’s a huge bet on Amen being able to continue to improve his shooting (as he has this year), but the bbiq and defense are there. Do wonder if Castle now makes him redundant though? Smith is the ideal 3/4 next to Victor and Sochan for his ability to play D, stretch the floor, and not need the ball. Never cared for Sheppard but the deal work with him instead of Amen too.

If you can turn Vassell into Jabari Smith, I'm all for it even without Thompson.

[Seventyniner]

I don't think the Rockets sell on Amen anywhere near that cheap.

[CGD]

I don't think the Rockets sell on Amen anywhere near that cheap.

From their perspective it’s basically Smith/Thompson for Butler. While I take the point that Jimmy is older these days, I still think he’ll command at least two good young Rockets pieces.

[mo7888]

From their perspective it’s basically Smith/Thompson for Butler. While I take the point that Jimmy is older these days, I still think he’ll command at least two good young Rockets pieces.

As i think about it more, I believe I'd rather have Smith + Sheppard than Smith + Thompson. Thompson and Castle are to redundant and that Sochan, Thompson, and Castle lineup would be abysmal offensively. Castle + Sheppard could be a nice fit.

[LeBowen]

As i think about it more, I believe I'd rather have Smith + Sheppard than Smith + Thompson. Thompson and Castle are to redundant and that Sochan, Thompson, and Castle lineup would be abysmal offensively. Castle + Sheppard could be a nice fit.

Amen is the most untouchable Rockets player.
Jabari after him.
Others can be traded for the right offer. But they're not trading Amen unless Giannis becomes available.

[CGD]

As i think about it more, I believe I'd rather have Smith + Sheppard than Smith + Thompson. Thompson and Castle are to redundant and that Sochan, Thompson, and Castle lineup would be abysmal offensively. Castle + Sheppard could be a nice fit.

I’d be pleased to turn Dev into Jabari and Reed. Houston has buried Jabari and this seems like the time to get him, especially with his extension around the corner. Not a huge Reed guy, but now that I’ve seen Castle in action I can see that pairing working nicely.

[Baam]

The exciting yet low stake option is Zion (or Ingram but less so). Try to get Hawkins in the deal and it's worth Vassel + probably a FRP. If it doesn't work out with Zion/Ingram you still have Hawkins that can turn out better than Vassel.

[baseline bum]

Amen has been really fantastic this season, much to the chagrin of the haters, but I don't see any way for him, Castle and Sochan to co-exist on the same team. Also don't think Houston does this deal, but I'm not as in tune with their team.

If we could get Amen I'd trade Castle. Though it's a ridiculous thought as there is no way in hell the Rockets are trading him. I don't think they'd include him in a Giannis trade much less one for 35 year old Jimmy Butler.

[$pursDynasty]

After the Christmas day game my interest in trading for Herb Jones from the Pelicans, has risen. The Spurs need a wing stopper. People say Sochan is a defensive stopper but he did nothing with Bridges yesterday. I would trade a first and two seconds for Herb. We will still have tons assets, for moves.

[exstatic]

The exciting yet low stake option is Zion (or Ingram but less so). Try to get Hawkins in the deal and it's worth Vassel + probably a FRP. If it doesn't work out with Zion/Ingram you still have Hawkins that can turn out better than Vassel.

They’re not trading Hawkins, let alone viewing him as a throw in. They only want to trade Zion and BI because they no longer view them as future pieces of the franchise.

[exstatic]

After the Christmas day game my interest in trading for Herb Jones from the Pelicans, has risen. The Spurs need a wing stopper. People say Sochan is a defensive stopper but he did nothing with Bridges yesterday. I would trade a first and two seconds for Herb. We will still have tons assets, for moves.

Sochan was checking Brunson for the most part, not bridges.

New Orleans would hang up on your Herb Jones offer.

[Mr. Body]

Why do people think NOP is trading Herb Jones? Lol

[CGD]

Why do people think NOP is trading Herb Jones? Lol

Never got this. Or the ideal that they’d trade Trey Murphy.

They still have a fanbase they need to give hope too if they want butts in seats.

[$pursDynasty]

Why do people think NOP is trading Herb Jones? Lol
there are rumors that the Pelicans are shopping everyone except for the three cheap young stars. However they didn't say the three young stars were untouchable, just that they would rather keep them and are happy to move off everyone else, that means the Pelicans are thinking a complete rebuild and teams thinking that way can be convinced. Herb Jones is a cheap valuable piece however he isn't a foundational piece you build your franchise on, like a Wemby or an Ant. If the Spurs offered two #1's I can't imagine the Pelicans say no.

[CGD]

After the Christmas day game my interest in trading for Herb Jones from the Pelicans, has risen. The Spurs need a wing stopper. People say Sochan is a defensive stopper but he did nothing with Bridges yesterday. I would trade a first and two seconds for Herb. We will still have tons assets, for moves.

The Sochan hate is nuts on this board. Bridges was being checked by Vassell most of the game…. Looked like Sochan was checking OG mostly, and Brunson some.

[scott]

Outside of the Spurs, here are some players that I'd just like to see traded, to mix things up and add some more interest to the league:


Zion. This one is pretty self-explanatory. What a waste of talent he's been for NOP, by his own laziness. The Pelicans have been a half decent team over the years essentially in spite of him. He's not played a single one of their playoff or play-in games. The league's least reliable talented player. With that said, I'd love to see a team like WAS, POR, UTA, TOR, CHA take a buy-low gamble on him. Kuzma and Jonas for Zion works financially and get NOP out of the tax. Adding Zion doesn't hurt WAS's tank this season, while Kuzma and Jonas gives NOP actual useful players and maybe that can entire BI to resign. Big question would be whether NOP wants to take the opportunity to tank this season. Also, Kuzma and BI (if resigned) create blockers to Trey Murphy and Herb minutes. Maybe you replace Kuzma with Poole?
Jimmy Butler. For one, fuck the Heat. After that, Jimmy is a prime time gamer and I'd like to see how he changes the NBA landscape this offseason by going somewhere else.
Aaron Nesmith/Bennedict Mathurin/Jarace Walker/Obi Toppin/Ben Sheppard. No reason for IND to trade these guys, but these are young Pacers whom I like and just think are wasted on that shithole franchse. Nesmith is who I'd love to upgrade Keldon with on the cheap if possible. All of these guys would be great fits here, but I don't see it happening. Hopefully at least one of them gets a shot elsewhere though.
Zach Lavine and Vooch. On one hand, I don't want to see them traded because that means CHI is tanking and we may never get that pick. On the other hand, I think new homes for them would add some excitement to the league.
Cam Johnson/DFS/Cam Thomas. Same situation as the Bulls... would just add some excitement to the existing playoff mix.
Jak. I just want him to have a chance to play some playoff basketball. Free Poeltl!
Queso Wallace. Won't happen because he's an important piece of OKC's title push, but I'd love to see him get a chance to be a lead guard somewhere.
Any Blazer. They have some talented guys. I'm curious to see how any of them would do on a franchise that isn't a shitshow.
Jollins/Sexton/Clarkson. Useful vets who are trapped in purgatory.

[baseline bum]

Outside of the Spurs, here are some players that I'd just like to see traded, to mix things up and add some more interest to the league:


Zion. This one is pretty self-explanatory. What a waste of talent he's been for NOP, by his own laziness. The Pelicans have been a half decent team over the years essentially in spite of him. He's not played a single one of their playoff or play-in games. The league's least reliable talented player. With that said, I'd love to see a team like WAS, POR, UTA, TOR, CHA take a buy-low gamble on him. Kuzma and Jonas for Zion works financially and get NOP out of the tax. Adding Zion doesn't hurt WAS's tank this season, while Kuzma and Jonas gives NOP actual useful players and maybe that can entire BI to resign. Big question would be whether NOP wants to take the opportunity to tank this season. Also, Kuzma and BI (if resigned) create blockers to Trey Murphy and Herb minutes. Maybe you replace Kuzma with Poole?


Man I wouldn't wish Zion on even the Lakers fanbase. We're so fortunate to have a franchise guy who loves the game and is competitive as hell instead of a fatass who just wants to collect his check. Could you imagine how thrilled we would have been to win that draft lottery too? Feel sick for Pels fans getting jerked around like that by a guy who'd be the best player in the league and probably have an MVP or two and maybe even a ring if he gave a shit.

[scott]

Man I wouldn't wish Zion on even the Lakers fanbase. We're so fortunate to have a franchise guy who loves the game and is competitive as hell instead of a fatass who just wants to collect his check. Could you imagine how thrilled we would have been to win that draft lottery too? Feel sick for Pels fans getting jerked around like that by a guy who'd be the best player in the league and probably have an MVP or two and maybe even a ring if he gave a shit.

Of all the teams in the Tank Zone, I actually kind of hope NOP gets Flagg, for this reason. Not as talented as Zion, but will be an infinitely better pro because he won't eat and fuck his way through New Orleans. He'd be a pretty nice plug-and-play fit for what NOP would have been hoping for Zion to produce coming into this season.

That's also why I think the WAS fit works. WAS doesn't need Kuzma or Poole, and might even appreciate getting off their salary. They can essentially get a free-roll at Zion and the <10% chance that this acts as a wake-up call and the dude can have a retribution arc. I wouldn't envision any picks going either direction. WAS gets a free roll at a generational talent, NOP gets off that deal and useful players.

WAS could be fun with a Bilal/Harper/Zion/Sarr core (obviously this assumes they can land Harper in the lotto and Zion does in fact get his shit together. The 14% lotto odds to get Harper might be better than the odds on Zion :lol)

[CGD]

On the Jakob point above, seeing how the spurs are using Jeremy I start to understand why Spurs may have seen him as the “perfect” center for Wemby to play with. Imagine dumping it down to Jakob with good low position instead of Jeremy (whose been good btw).

[baseline bum]

Of all the teams in the Tank Zone, I actually kind of hope NOP gets Flagg, for this reason. Not as talented as Zion, but will be an infinitely better pro because he won't eat and fuck his way through New Orleans. He'd be a pretty nice plug-and-play fit for what NOP would have been hoping for Zion to produce coming into this season.

That's also why I think the WAS fit works. WAS doesn't need Kuzma or Poole, and might even appreciate getting off their salary. They can essentially get a free-roll at Zion and the <10% chance that this acts as a wake-up call and the dude can have a retribution arc. I wouldn't envision any picks going either direction. WAS gets a free roll at a generational talent, NOP gets off that deal and useful players.

WAS could be fun with a Bilal/Harper/Zion/Sarr core (obviously this assumes they can land Harper in the lotto and Zion does in fact get his shit together. The 14% lotto odds to get Harper might be better than the odds on Zion :lol)

It's not even that high a reward scenario anymore with how much athleticism he had lost when he was in shape and healthy last year. Went from being a LeBron or Wemby level prospect to second star on a contender being his absolute ceiling now. Zion's the last guy I want on a young team too. He needs respected vets that'll kick his ass around for being lazy, like Moses Malone did for Barkley when he came in the league as a fatass. And I don't want my young guys being influenced by a guy like Zion who clearly doesn't give a shit. If I'm Washington I'm doing that trade to either cut Zion in the summer or see if he'll agree to a buyout this season.

[baseline bum]

On the Jakob point above, seeing how the spurs are using Jeremy I start to understand why Spurs may have seen him as the “perfect” center for Wemby to play with. Imagine dumping it down to Jakob with good low position instead of Jeremy (whose been good btw).

Sochan has been killing shit down low this year. I very much doubt Poeltl would be better.

[scott]

It's not even that high a reward scenario anymore with how much athleticism he had lost when he was in shape and healthy last year. Went from being a LeBron or Wemby level prospect to second star on a contender being his absolute ceiling now. Zion's the last guy I want on a young team too. He needs respected vets that'll kick his ass around for being lazy, like Moses Malone did for Barkley when he came in the league as a fatass. And I don't want my young guys being influenced by a guy like Zion who clearly doesn't give a shit. If I'm Washington I'm doing that trade to either cut Zion in the summer or see if he'll agree to a buyout this season.

Well that's why I want him on WAS and not SAS :lol I don't GAF what happens to the Bullettes, but would be very entertained by a Zion redemption story.

[baseline bum]

Well that's why I want him on WAS and not SAS :lol I don't GAF what happens to the Bullettes, but would be very entertained by a Zion redemption story.

You just want to see the world burn don't you? :lol

[jjspur]

Vooch for Zollins and Branham. Not many people like Vooch, but fans here dislike Zollins and Branham even more. The salaries match as well.

Positives: Vooch is having a halfway decent year. His best defense is unfortunately no defense, but you can say that about Branham and sometimes Collins.
Its a 2 for one, opening up a slot somewhere in the spurs lineup.
His contract is only this year and next year same as Zollins and Branham.
We say adios to two players that have been disappointments with little chance for real improvement.
I've read that Vooch can be had for 2nd rounders.

Negatives All three players have big big holes in their game some bigger than others.
If the spurs do this we may not get their draft pick this year- must be the DeRozen curse or something.

Why do we do it ? Not the best trade but its doable. Its an upgrade... a small upgrade . If we do this it lets the fans know that the team is still trying to improve and make progress & not just through the draft. I'd even throw in a 2032 2nd round draft pick to seal the deal.

[CGD]

I'd totally forgotten that Tre Jones was expiring THIS summer (had it in my mind it was the next). Wonder if they try to flip him this trade deadline to avoid letting him walk for nothing? Might be the only realistic move of all those listed in here, then again i have no ideal what his market is right now.

[scott]

I'd totally forgotten that Tre Jones was expiring THIS summer (had it in my mind it was the next). Wonder if they try to flip him this trade deadline to avoid letting him walk for nothing? Might be the only realistic move of all those listed in here, then again i have no ideal what his market is right now.

Tre's expiring would be really useful in trying to pick up someone from a tanking team. For example, Tre for Jonas works straight up and it would allow WAS to avoid two additional years of salary. An SRP might all it takes to sweeten the pot for WAS unless they really like Jonas as a Sarr mentor.

With that said, I could definitely see the Spurs resigning Tre on a 2/12 or 3/16 type deal. Just gets shit around here, but he serves his purpose decently and would be a great as a backup to a primary 3-man rotation (for example, if you somehow had Fox/Castle/Vassell are your 3 guards, Tre would be perfect to pick up the additional minutes when available).

[spurraider21]

Tre's expiring would be really useful in trying to pick up someone from a tanking team. For example, Tre for Jonas works straight up and it would allow WAS to avoid two additional years of salary. An SRP might all it takes to sweeten the pot for WAS unless they really like Jonas as a Sarr mentor.

With that said, I could definitely see the Spurs resigning Tre on a 2/12 or 3/16 type deal. Just gets shit around here, but he serves his purpose decently and would be a great as a backup to a primary 3-man rotation (for example, if you somehow had Fox/Castle/Vassell are your 3 guards, Tre would be perfect to pick up the additional minutes when available).
imo it kinda depends on what their expectations are with Paul. is he going to come back for another year? if so, Tre is obviously expendable. if they have had some discussions with paul and its clear this is at best a 1 year relationship, then i could see them waiting that out and potentially re-signing Tre to a small deal

[scott]

imo it kinda depends on what their expectations are with Paul. is he going to come back for another year? if so, Tre is obviously expendable. if they have had some discussions with paul and its clear this is at best a 1 year relationship, then i could see them waiting that out and potentially re-signing Tre to a small deal

Yeah, I think it also depends on how they view the draft. Maybe the like multiple prospects in the range and think Traore (whom I think there is a strong chance will not enter this draft) or Fland will be there and they like them, they could see either one of those guys as the third wheel in a Castle/Vassell 3-man primary rotation.

Or if they went a pure SG route with the draft or FA, and CP3 is out of the picture, then Tre would make sense on a small deal as the primary backup.

OR... if CP3 does come back then it could be more of the same as this year, with Tre as the 4th in a CP3/Vassell/Castle rotation.

I know that you and I are aligned in that hopefully the future won't include Vassell, but I definitely see a strong possibility where they keep him past him being ripe, much like Keldon.

[spurraider21]

Yeah, I think it also depends on how they view the draft. Maybe the like multiple prospects in the range and think Traore (whom I think there is a strong chance will not enter this draft) or Fland will be there and they like them, they could see either one of those guys as the third wheel in a Castle/Vassell 3-man primary rotation.

Or if they went a pure SG route with the draft or FA, and CP3 is out of the picture, then Tre would make sense on a small deal as the primary backup.

OR... if CP3 does come back then it could be more of the same as this year, with Tre as the 4th in a CP3/Vassell/Castle rotation.

I know that you and I are aligned in that hopefully the future won't include Vassell, but I definitely see a strong possibility where they keep him past him being ripe, much like Keldon.
im not fully "out" on vassell yet, but i no longer see him as untouchable and as a certain part of the future core alongside vic. he can still play up to those standards... just hasnt been there this year at all

if a fox-tier player is available, yeah im including devin. markkanen though... probably not

[HemisfairArena]

As long as Spurs fans keep wishing for the tank and losing,,,,Wemby's gone when his 4 years are up,,,,,bank on it,,,,LMAO. Teams like Boston,,,,with Tatum and Brown,,,,New York,,,,,LA,,,,,all will show up and shed salary for Wemby and have a way better chance at winning than the Spurs with their,,,,oh fuck I hope the Hawks pick pans out,,,,,:lmao,,,,,If the Spurs dont make the playoffs in Wemby's first 4 years,,,,,hes gone,,,,,

[ambchang]

I’m in the minority but I absolutely do not mind having Zion on the spurs. He could be redeemed and if he ever becomes healthy can be a 20/6/5 guy. Problem is
A) he is lazy out of shape and seems to have lost the love for the game
B) his athleticism has taken a notable step back, but he’s still in the upper echelon of the league athletically
C) he can’t shoot, hi am with sochan and castle won’t work. And I’m very hesitant to get rid of sochan (can consider) for castle (no way) for him.

Despite the fall, Zion would still command a pretty penny. Not one of those Malaki, zollins Charlotte first type of deal, we are taking at least 2 prospects (sochan and Vassell) and two decent firsts for him, at which point I’d balk.

[spurraider21]

i dont see the vision of Cam Johnson being the starting 4. we saw just how bad the rebounding got when Sochan was out. and Cam doesnt provide any interior defense.

[LeBowen]

I’m in the minority but I absolutely do not mind having Zion on the spurs. He could be redeemed and if he ever becomes healthy can be a 20/6/5 guy. Problem is
A) he is lazy out of shape and seems to have lost the love for the game
B) his athleticism has taken a notable step back, but he’s still in the upper echelon of the league athletically
C) he can’t shoot, hi am with sochan and castle won’t work. And I’m very hesitant to get rid of sochan (can consider) for castle (no way) for him.

Despite the fall, Zion would still command a pretty penny. Not one of those Malaki, zollins Charlotte first type of deal, we are taking at least 2 prospects (sochan and Vassell) and two decent firsts for him, at which point I’d balk.




Last season, Williamson needed to miss fewer than 23 games to avoid his 2025-26, 2026-27 and 2027-28 salaries becoming non-guaranteed. He missed 53 games.
If Williamson passes six "weigh-in-checkpoints" during the 2024-25 season -- to pass, his body fat percentage and weight must add up to no more than 295 (i.e. if he weighs in at 285 pounds, he cannot exceed 10% body fat ) -- then 20% of his 2025-26 salary will become guaranteed.
If he plays in at least 41 games in 2024-25, another 40% of his 2025-26 salary will become guaranteed. If he plays in at least 51 games, another 20% would be guaranteed on top of that. If he plays in at least 61 games (and doesn't violate the weight clause), then his entire 2025-26 salary will be guaranteed.
The above markers are the same for the years that follow. In other words, by being available and passing the weight check-ins, he can guarantee his salary for the next season.
If Williamson has significant issues with his surgically repaired fifth metatarsal in his right foot (i.e. "a fracture or a stress injury to that bone or the healed callus" or "what the contract calls a 'hardware failure' related to the previous injury," per The Athletic (https://theathletic.com/4913537/2023/12/21/zion-williamson-contract-guarantees/)) this season, then half of his 2024-25 salary will become non-guaranteed.



He wouldn't command anything, they're probably going to cut his fat ass and deservedly so.
He's just a player in theory. Even when he was healthy he was a horrible defender other than those weak side blocks which we have no need for and he's a non-shooter.

If they're interested in trading him before the deadline, I'd give them Keldon+Collins+SRPs and then give Zion a trial until the end of the season.
If he doesn't have a complete attitude change, I'd just cut him and clear cap space this summer.

[scott]

I’m in the minority but I absolutely do not mind having Zion on the spurs. He could be redeemed and if he ever becomes healthy can be a 20/6/5 guy. Problem is
A) he is lazy out of shape and seems to have lost the love for the game
B) his athleticism has taken a notable step back, but he’s still in the upper echelon of the league athletically
C) he can’t shoot, hi am with sochan and castle won’t work. And I’m very hesitant to get rid of sochan (can consider) for castle (no way) for him.

Despite the fall, Zion would still command a pretty penny. Not one of those Malaki, zollins Charlotte first type of deal, we are taking at least 2 prospects (sochan and Vassell) and two decent firsts for him, at which point I’d balk.

I don't see anyone giving up this kind of haul for Zion.

Here's his recent history:

2021-22: injured, misses entire season (including play-in and playoffs)
2022-23: injured, misses play-in game
2023-24: plays one play-in game, drops 40. Injured, misses next play-in game and subsequent playoff series
2024-25: injured, team has second worst record in the league

He's just too unreliable. Would probably fetch less of a return that Nephew at this point, tbh

[Leetonidas]

After the Christmas day game my interest in trading for Herb Jones from the Pelicans, has risen. The Spurs need a wing stopper. People say Sochan is a defensive stopper but he did nothing with Bridges yesterday. I would trade a first and two seconds for Herb. We will still have tons assets, for moves.

Bridges had one of those games that happen every now and then when someone goes nuclear and can't be stopped no matter what you throw at him. Sochan isn't a bad defender just because bridges happened to have the game of his life

[Leetonidas]

As long as Spurs fans keep wishing for the tank and losing,,,,Wemby's gone when his 4 years are up,,,,,bank on it,,,,LMAO. Teams like Boston,,,,with Tatum and Brown,,,,New York,,,,,LA,,,,,all will show up and shed salary for Wemby and have a way better chance at winning than the Spurs with their,,,,oh fuck I hope the Hawks pick pans out,,,,,:lmao,,,,,If the Spurs dont make the playoffs in Wemby's first 4 years,,,,,hes gone,,,,,

Go back to the political forum and play circle jerk with Thread, you're out of your element trying to discuss basketball

[ambchang]

He wouldn't command anything, they're probably going to cut his fat ass and deservedly so.
He's just a player in theory. Even when he was healthy he was a horrible defender other than those weak side blocks which we have no need for and he's a non-shooter.

If they're interested in trading him before the deadline, I'd give them Keldon+Collins+SRPs and then give Zion a trial until the end of the season.
If he doesn't have a complete attitude change, I'd just cut him and clear cap space this summer.


I don't see anyone giving up this kind of haul for Zion.

Here's his recent history:

2021-22: injured, misses entire season (including play-in and playoffs)
2022-23: injured, misses play-in game
2023-24: plays one play-in game, drops 40. Injured, misses next play-in game and subsequent playoff series
2024-25: injured, team has second worst record in the league

He's just too unreliable. Would probably fetch less of a return that Nephew at this point, tbh

I would be interested if the price is low, if it’s one of those Malaki zollins and the Charlotte first it’d be a no brainer. Even if Zion doesn’t work out we get rid of some spots and shed some salary.

As broken as Ben Simmons was he still got James harden back. Also Simmons and Kawhi just refused to play for months so that trade value was just torpedoed. Zion would still play he’s just unmotivated and really out of shape. I agree the worse part to fix is the head and Zion seems to be checked out but if the price is low enough I’d definitely kick the tires a bit.

[scott]

https://i.imgur.com/hkz1bE3.jpeg

Bye, losers.

[timtonymanu]

:cry but culture and continuity. Do those players you guys want impact winning?

[mystargtr34]

https://i.imgur.com/hkz1bE3.jpeg

Bye, losers.

Damn Wemby just dropped his balls on the boardroom table for everyone to see.

[Baam]

Some people on this board thinking he's gonna wait quietly for that 2031 pick lmao

[Baam]

Roster is trash, make the one move that can make it fun : Ingram or Zion.

[SouthernFried]

I don't think many Spurs fans realized just how bad the Spurs are...until CP3 came in and turned the team into something worth watching again. One 39 yr old short PG, showed up just about everyone else on the team and ran the team like an actual real basketball team.

That's how bad the SPURS really are.

[Teamduncan21]

I don't think many Spurs fans realized just how bad the Spurs are...until CP3 came in and turned the team into something worth watching again. One 39 yr old short PG, showed up just about everyone else on the team and ran the team like an actual real basketball team.

That's how bad the SPURS really are.

To be fair Chris Paul is known to do that. Not 39 year old. But he has done that a few times.
Hornets/pelicans to clippers to OKC to suns. I think only warriors didn't directly see a difference

[onechance87]

To be fair Chris Paul is known to do that. Not 39 year old. But he has done that a few times.
Hornets/pelicans to clippers to OKC to suns. I think only warriors didn't directly see a difference

But cp3 is really old now.Yet he is still looking hungry and showing more passion and promise then these
young dudes we brought in for our future.Just a terrible roster the front office put together.

[CGD]

Im still on the fence about Fox tbh.

Meanwhile Im watching the Boston situation. If they ring again this year, i think they’ll start selling pieces off to avoid that historically massive tax bill they face. Might a Jaylon Brown become available? How about bringing Derrick back?

[LeBowen]

Im still on the fence about Fox tbh.

Meanwhile Im watching the Boston situation. If they ring again this year, i think they’ll start selling pieces off to avoid that historically massive tax bill they face. Might a Jaylon Brown become available? How about bringing Derrick back?

They'll keep paying the tax as long as the team keeps winning.

[exstatic]

They'll keep paying the tax as long as the team keeps winning.

It’s not about the tax, it’s about having your picks pushed automatically to the end of the first round at the end of the tradeability window, and frozen from being traded. Imagine being unable to tank in 2032 when their players are certainly gone because your pick will be #32, post expansion.

The league realized that owners would pay money like you said, so they decided to severely punish teams in the second apron. It’s the reason Wycke Grousbeck is selling the Celtics.

[LeBowen]

It’s not about the tax, it’s about having your picks pushed automatically to the end of the first round at the end of the tradeability window, and frozen from being traded. Imagine being unable to tank in 2032 when their players are certainly gone because your pick will be #32, post expansion.

The league realized that owners would pay money like you said, so they decided to severely punish teams in the second apron. It’s the reason Wycke Grousbeck is selling the Celtics.

Considering how difficult it will be to not just be competitive, but actually win championship with these new rules, having a few horrible years in order to win is an acceptable loss. Especially for a franchise like Celtics where it doesn't matter if they're a second round exit or the worst team in the league because winning is the only thing that matters.

With that being said, 25-26 season is the only problematic one, but they'll keep the roster.
Porzingis is off the books after it and they'll be $20M under the projected 2nd apron for 26-27 season.

[ginobilized]

In reference to Wemby's boardroom ball-dropping moment, I think the All-Star game will give him some chances to play with real talent.
Eventually, he will call the shots on who he wants to bring in. Perhaps, players will want to come here after this season.

As much as I'd love to see a move this season, history dissuades me from betting on the Spurs doing anything above a micro-move at the deadline.

The off-season is where the Spurs are likely to get busy. Gotta say that CP3 and Barnes were great moves in improving this team. I love watching CP3 relentlessly educating these boneheads on how to play. Some faith in the FO has been restored after years of head-scratching moves.

[Pauleta14]

Roster is trash, make the one move that can make it fun : Ingram or Zion.

Define "fun".

[Mr. Body]

In reference to Wemby's boardroom ball-dropping moment, I think the All-Star game will give him some chances to play with real talent.
Eventually, he will call the shots on who he wants to bring in. Perhaps, players will want to come here after this season.

As much as I'd love to see a move this season, history dissuades me from betting on the Spurs doing anything above a micro-move at the deadline.

The off-season is where the Spurs are likely to get busy. Gotta say that CP3 and Barnes were great moves in improving this team. I love watching CP3 relentlessly educating these boneheads on how to play. Some faith in the FO has been restored after years of head-scratching moves.

I don't see much done mid-season. Inhale what they can with CP and HB. They can each still be moved this season, depending on how things are going. Otherwise aim for the draft, see what they get, then know what pieces to try to find.

[scott]

In reference to Wemby's boardroom ball-dropping moment, I think the All-Star game will give him some chances to play with real talent.
Eventually, he will call the shots on who he wants to bring in. Perhaps, players will want to come here after this season.

As much as I'd love to see a move this season, history dissuades me from betting on the Spurs doing anything above a micro-move at the deadline.

The off-season is where the Spurs are likely to get busy. Gotta say that CP3 and Barnes were great moves in improving this team. I love watching CP3 relentlessly educating these boneheads on how to play. Some faith in the FO has been restored after years of head-scratching moves.

Depending on how you define micro-move, I think this is the right approach anyway. Upgrade the periphery of the 10-man rotation and see what this team can do. We're a play-in contender with the guys we have, I'd just do some "micro-moves" (I've suggested Jonas and Nesmith if those meet the definition) and see where that takes us. Then prepare to be extremely aggressive in the offeseason (before the draft especially, since some of those trade assets are coming due).

[LeBowen]

Depending on how you define micro-move, I think this is the right approach anyway. Upgrade the periphery of the 10-man rotation and see what this team can do. We're a play-in contender with the guys we have, I'd just do some "micro-moves" (I've suggested Jonas and Nesmith if those meet the definition) and see where that takes us. Then prepare to be extremely aggressive in the offeseason (before the draft especially, since some of those trade assets are coming due).

I'd argue that getting a reliable backup big isn't a micro-move, but a must if we're to actually compete.
Other positions could be better, but are manageable.
We legit can't play when Wemby sits.

[quentin_compson]

Valanciunas is pretty damn bad at protecting the rim. Given how cheap he is and how bad Zach Collins is, though, he definitely would be an upgrade in every way.

[CGD]

They'll keep paying the tax as long as the team keeps winning.

They will not. In fact the current ownership group is trying to sell high on the team now. Make the tax stuff Bezos or whoever’s problem.

[scott]

Since today was the time I've ever heard the term "micro-move", I'm not going to quibble too much over the definition :lol

But, I'm going to assume that Devin isn't going anywhere, which means that upgrading back C and adding a competent wing who can play defense (essentially: upgrading Keldon) are the two most impactful moves we can make. Anything short of that won't make much of a difference and anything more than that is probably a bigger move than the FO is interested in at this juncture.

I liked DFS for a handful of seconds, Don't know if the FO even explored it. Spurs seem to have a list of preferred trading partner teams, and the Nets aren't on the recent list*, so I'm going to assume that this wasn't a move the FO was ever considering.

*We participated in the 5-team deal that took Westbrook to the Lakers, as did the Nets, but I don't really count that. We did a 3-team deal with them for DeMarre, so maybe there is a lot of bad blood there? Other than that, the only other recent trade was a 2014 deal where they send us cash for whomever the fuck Cory Jefferson was.

[LeBowen]

They will not. In fact the current ownership group is trying to sell high on the team now. Make the tax stuff Bezos or whoever’s problem.

Celtics as a team will keep paying the tax and that roster will keep competing.
Players and fans don't care who pays it as long as it's paid. And it will be paid for sure.

[scott]

Spurs fans are like Cowboys fans. They've allowed their own team's cheapness to fool them into thinking that the salary cap rules are some unavoidable boogey man. Other teams can, and will, figure it out when they have to.

[DPG21920]

I would love to trade for Ingram and treat him like an expiring deal. If you can move Keldon + Collins for him (if NO is having a fire sale) and a non-material pick and clear those salaries that would be great.

[scott]

I would love to trade for Ingram and treat him like an expiring deal. If you can move Keldon + Collins for him (if NO is having a fire sale) and a non-material pick and clear those salaries that would be great.

If NOP is having a fire sale, why would they unload an expiring so that they can add multiple years of Keldon and Collins salary in exchange for a non-material pick?

[Mr. Body]

Since today was the time I've ever heard the term "micro-move", I'm not going to quibble too much over the definition :lol

But, I'm going to assume that Devin isn't going anywhere, which means that upgrading back C and adding a competent wing who can play defense (essentially: upgrading Keldon) are the two most impactful moves we can make. Anything short of that won't make much of a difference and anything more than that is probably a bigger move than the FO is interested in at this juncture.

I liked DFS for a handful of seconds, Don't know if the FO even explored it. Spurs seem to have a list of preferred trading partner teams, and the Nets aren't on the recent list*, so I'm going to assume that this wasn't a move the FO was ever considering.

*We participated in the 5-team deal that took Westbrook to the Lakers, as did the Nets, but I don't really count that. We did a 3-team deal with them for DeMarre, so maybe there is a lot of bad blood there? Other than that, the only other recent trade was a 2014 deal where they send us cash for whomever the fuck Cory Jefferson was.

Why trade for DFS when Harrison and Julian are doing the job just fine? They may be individually better, and DFS is already 31.

[LeBowen]

If NOP is having a fire sale, why would they unload an expiring so that they can add multiple years of Keldon and Collins salary in exchange for a non-material pick?

Tbh, if their plan is to not tank after this season, Keldon and Collins are two pieces they could think are maybe useful.

Assuming they get rid of Zion, Ingram and CJ, their rotation would look something like:
DJ/Hawkins/Murphy/Herb/Missi, with Alvarado as 6th man and no reliable bench pieces.
Keldon can be the energy guy off the bench and they don't have a backup big.

If we could get rid of both those contracts and take a flyer on Ingram for like 4 or 5 SRPs, I don't see a reason why not because we have 18 SRPs, probably 20 because CHA FRP won't convey.
Collins will be an expiring next season, easy to move if they want to and as I said they need a wing off the bench.

As for Ingram, I really don't like or rate him, but he certainly has the talent and if Spurs could get him to improve his mindset, who knows? If they can't, we got ourselves $35M cap space.

[KingKev]

The only moves I can see us making is attempting to move Collins and/or Keldon while adding SRP’s to bring in a vet or two who has fallen out of a rotation or is a throw in in another trade. Wouldn’t be surprised if we even took on a shittier longer term deal.

[scott]

Why trade for DFS when Harrison and Julian are doing the job just fine? They may be individually better, and DFS is already 31.

Maybe you've heard of a guy on our team named Keldon Johnson?

[CGD]

Celtics as a team will keep paying the tax and that roster will keep competing.
Players and fans don't care who pays it as long as it's paid. And it will be paid for sure.

Of course players and fans don’t care, lol. The money’d people do. Case in point: Jerry Jones this season, and the shit product he put out precisely for cost reason.

[LeBowen]

Of course players and fans don’t care, lol. The money’d people do. Case in point: Jerry Jones this season, and the shit product he put out precisely for cost reason.

There are two types of owners. Those who want to make money off a team and don't really care about competing and those who are way too rich to care and use sports teams for dick measuring.
Celtics will be bought by someone from the second group, noone who's about making profit will be interested.

[Frenchfred]

Define "fun".

a full infirmary apparently.

[scott]

Tbh, if their plan is to not tank after this season, Keldon and Collins are two pieces they could think are maybe useful.

Assuming they get rid of Zion, Ingram and CJ, their rotation would look something like:
DJ/Hawkins/Murphy/Herb/Missi, with Alvarado as 6th man and no reliable bench pieces.
Keldon can be the energy guy off the bench and they don't have a backup big.

If we could get rid of both those contracts and take a flyer on Ingram for like 4 or 5 SRPs, I don't see a reason why not because we have 18 SRPs, probably 20 because CHA FRP won't convey.
Collins will be an expiring next season, easy to move if they want to and as I said they need a wing off the bench.

As for Ingram, I really don't like or rate him, but he certainly has the talent and if Spurs could get him to improve his mindset, who knows? If they can't, we got ourselves $35M cap space.

I know NOP does stupid stuff... but I don't think they are THAT stupid.

[Mr. Body]

Maybe you've heard of a guy on our team named Keldon Johnson?

What about him.

[CGD]

There are two types of owners. Those who want to make money off a team and don't really care about competing and those who are way too rich to care and use sports teams for dick measuring.
Celtics will be bought by someone from the second group, noone who's about making profit will be interested.

Bezos or bust for them then!

I’m skeptical as hell that a new group, no matter how rich, will be willingly come in with the expectation of losing money out the gate. Guess we’ll see.

[LeBowen]

Bezos or bust for them then!

I’m skeptical as hell that a new group, no matter how rich, will be willingly come in with the expectation of losing money out the gate. Guess we’ll see.

Celtics are one of the most desireable sports teams in the world you can buy.
People like Ishbia or Ballmer don't care about losses, even in billions.
Owning the Celtics is really good for your status if you're among the richest.

[scott]

Celtics are one of the most desireable sports teams in the world you can buy.
People like Ishbia or Ballmer don't care about losses, even in billions.
Owning the Celtics is really good for your status if you're among the richest.

A more important point is that the value of owning these teams doesn't come from the annual cash flows or profit/loss generated while you own them, but the appreciation of the franchise from when you buy to when you sell.

[CGD]

A more important point is that the value of owning these teams doesn't come from the annual cash flows or profit/loss generated while you own them, but the appreciation of the franchise from when you buy to when you sell.

I mean Bezos did buy the WashPo, and that’s basically a tax write off at this point.

[scott]

I mean Bezos did buy the WashPo, and that’s basically a tax write off at this point.

I've purposely avoided diving into it, but seems like some of these media (both new and old) acquisitions are about the political influence that comes with them more than anything else?

[ginobilized]

Depending on how you define micro-move, I think this is the right approach anyway. Upgrade the periphery of the 10-man rotation and see what this team can do. We're a play-in contender with the guys we have, I'd just do some "micro-moves" (I've suggested Jonas and Nesmith if those meet the definition) and see where that takes us. Then prepare to be extremely aggressive in the offeseason (before the draft especially, since some of those trade assets are coming due).

By "micro-move" I mean Tony Massenburg-ish from back in the day. 9-11th man addition while getting rid of a 10th-15th man, if anyone. I'd rate Nesmith and Jonas as well beyond a "micro-move." Paul Reed or Jeremiah Robinson Earl would be what I call Spursian "micro-moves."

[scott]

By "micro-move" I mean Tony Massenburg-ish from back in the day. 9-11th man addition while getting rid of a 10th-15th man, if anyone. I'd rate Nesmith and Jonas as well beyond a "micro-move." Paul Reed or Jeremiah Robinson Earl would be what I call Spursian "micro-moves."

Gotcha. Makes sense. I'm hoping for more of the Antoine Carr/JR Reid/Charles Smith type of move. Minor in the grand scheme of things, but impactful to us at the time (but without the FRPs except for maybe Nesmith).

[CGD]

I've purposely avoided diving into it, but seems like some of these media (both new and old) acquisitions are about the political influence that comes with them more than anything else?

Given recent events surrounding Bezos, WashPos endorsement saga, and timing of lobbying for government space contracts, it’s hard to avoid that conclusion… But yes, probably best to avoid that can of worms here.

[RC_Drunkford]

If NOP is having a fire sale, why would they unload an expiring so that they can add multiple years of Keldon and Collins salary in exchange for a non-material pick?

if they having a fire sale, bring DJ back

[scott]

The thing is, NOP has no reason to have a fire sale. They’re already the worst team in the league, have BI expiring and Zion non-guaranteed. They just need to cut a little bit of salary (around $3MM IIRC) to avoid the tax. My guess is that they’ll move one of BI, Zion or CJ. If I were them, I’d probably try to move all three though they probably like CJ as a locker room presence.

[CGD]

I think they’ll just wait until the summer. Maybe the hope was Keldon, Tre or Zach would entice a playoff team looking for deep bench help (DFS), but those guys likely haven’t really shown enough this season.

[ambchang]

I don't think many Spurs fans realized just how bad the Spurs are...until CP3 came in and turned the team into something worth watching again. One 39 yr old short PG, showed up just about everyone else on the team and ran the team like an actual real basketball team.

That's how bad the SPURS really are.

The spurs were a piece away from a decent team, doesn’t that say the spurs actually constructed a decent team? Especially when said piece was brought in by …. The team?

[DAF86]

How many picks would it take to transform our Johnson from Keldon to Cam?

[tbdog]

How many picks would it take to transform our Johnson from Keldon to Cam?

Why? You don't spend picks until you are ready for a push.

[DAF86]

Why? You don't spend picks until you are ready for a push.

Wemby is ready for a push.

[tbdog]

Wemby is ready for a push.

The team isn't. It's not deep enough. They'll have a good offseason.

[Spursfanfromafar]

if they having a fire sale, bring DJ back

He has been terrible. His defense has fallen off a cliff since he went to Atlanta and his 3P shooting is terrible these days.

If there was someone that the Spurs can pry from BI, Zion, CJ...it has to be one among the first two and both come with huge risks.

[scott]

The team isn't. It's not deep enough. They'll have a good offseason.

What's going to happen between now and the offseason to make the team "ready for a push"?

What are they doing to do in the offseason to make it good? Adding a bunch of rookies ain't gonna be it. The FA class isn't loaded with stars.

I'm not saying they even need to make rash moves now, but there is nothing magical about this upcoming offseason that is going to transform the team. If the right deal presents itself now, we should take it - but we shouldn't make a bad deal (now or in the offseason).

[rankingtear]

Cam Johnson is still in play one of the moves I am onboard with. Would take 1 unprotected pick.

[Pauleta14]

The team isn't. It's not deep enough. They'll have a good offseason.

You want Wemby to wait for Sochan and Cie to be ready?? :lol

Wemby was ready last season and everyday that passes is a waste of time

He should be surrounded by players that elevate him, not drown him

[Pauleta14]

Cam Johnson is still in play one of the moves I am onboard with. Would take 1 unprotected pick.

Ideally...


But Mitch is already lost with too many players at his disposal apparently.

Spurs need a proper coach first a foremost

[tbdog]

What's going to happen between now and the offseason to make the team "ready for a push"?

What are they doing to do in the offseason to make it good? Adding a bunch of rookies ain't gonna be it. The FA class isn't loaded with stars.

I'm not saying they even need to make rash moves now, but there is nothing magical about this upcoming offseason that is going to transform the team. If the right deal presents itself now, we should take it - but we shouldn't make a bad deal (now or in the offseason).

There are just more options available. More teams know their goals. More players are available. Look I would welcome Cam Johnson, just how many picks do you want to just give now? Sure Collins for Cam works contact wise, but boy that is some picks to make it work.

[RC_Drunkford]

Cam Johnson is still in play one of the moves I am onboard with. Would take 1 unprotected pick.

Brooklyn wants at least 2 firsts for him

[LeBowen]

Brooklyn wants at least 2 firsts for him

Two firsts because no contender can offer good FRPs...unless OKC decides they want Cam.
I'd say that one good FRP beats a couple of late round FRPs.

[rankingtear]

Brooklyn wants at least 2 firsts for him

Nobody going to offer 2 unprotected for a role player.

[Frenchfred]

Brooklyn wants at least 2 firsts for him

let's give a first and 1-2 second

[paperboy77]

LOL our front office sux. Recently saw a post either here or on X saying it would take trading Vassell for FinneySmith. Wonder if that was a burner account for our GM. :lol

[scott]

There are just more options available. More teams know their goals. More players are available. Look I would welcome Cam Johnson, just how many picks do you want to just give now? Sure Collins for Cam works contact wise, but boy that is some picks to make it work.

I'm with you on Cam Johnson - not worth spending a bunch of picks on right now. I think we're probably pretty aligned on the overall premise, I just don't think we should have set in our mind that it shouldn't happen now, or that the offseason will necessarily present a bunch of new opportunities. We should be proactively trying to find the right moves that improve the team. They may be now. They may be in the offseason. I'm good with both. I just don't think we should expect magical things to happen if we just wait until the offseason.

[LeBowen]

I'm with you on Cam Johnson - not worth spending a bunch of picks on right now. I think we're probably pretty aligned on the overall premise, I just don't think we should have set in our mind that it shouldn't happen now, or that the offseason will necessarily present a bunch of new opportunities. We should be proactively trying to find the right moves that improve the team. They may be now. They may be in the offseason. I'm good with both. I just don't think we should expect magical things to happen if we just wait until the offseason.

If we're looking to spend FRPs, it needs to be for the second option first. Then we can add complementary pieces.
Yeah, Cam Johnson fits any roster, but he's not going to be the difference maker if the roster sucks.

We either need small moves to fix immediate needs like a backup big or we need a legit scorer if we're to compete this season.

[mo7888]

What does Utah want for Collins and/or Sexton?

[LeBowen]

What does Utah want for Collins and/or Sexton?

I think they'd be fine with that Timberwolves pick and swap we got. Utah owns their entire draft future up until 20131 except for those two. Ainge surely wants to complete the collection.
Collins and Sexton make $45M combined.
Collins, Keldon and Tre make $45M combined.
Add MIN FRP and swap and I think the deal can be made.

They'd even have $9M less in salaries next season and they can probably get something for Tre at the deadline.
The only extra salary they'd take would be Keldon's $17M for 26-27 season.

[mo7888]

I think they'd be fine with that Timberwolves pick and swap we got. Utah owns their entire draft future up until 20131 except for those two. Ainge surely wants to complete the collection.
Collins and Sexton make $45M combined.
Collins, Keldon and Tre make $45M combined.
Add MIN FRP and swap and I think the deal can be made.

They'd even have $9M less in salaries next season and they can probably get something for Tre at the deadline.
The only extra salary they'd take would be Keldon's $17M for 26-27 season.

I'd seriously consider that... its the kind of low-key move that helps us this year and keeps our options open going forward...

[LeBowen]

I'd seriously consider that... its the kind of low-key move that helps us this year and keeps our options open going forward...

John Collins would enable a 3 man PF/C rotation, he'd be able to play with both Wemby and Jeremy.
Sexton would be a way better fit with both CP3 and Castle than Tre because he can actually shoot, score and get to the rim.

It's just that we can talk about these moves all day, but nothing will happen.

[scott]

I think they'd be fine with that Timberwolves pick and swap we got. Utah owns their entire draft future up until 20131 except for those two. Ainge surely wants to complete the collection.
Collins and Sexton make $45M combined.
Collins, Keldon and Tre make $45M combined.
Add MIN FRP and swap and I think the deal can be made.

They'd even have $9M less in salaries next season and they can probably get something for Tre at the deadline.
The only extra salary they'd take would be Keldon's $17M for 26-27 season.

I agree with your previous post that we should either focus on small moves or that second option first - going after Collins and Sexton would seemingly fly in the face of that and I wouldn't love those moves, even though they'd make our team incrementally better. IMO, those are the kind of "too small to be big but too big to be small" kinds of moves we should avoid right now.

[LeBowen]

I agree with your previous post that we should either focus on small moves or that second option first - going after Collins and Sexton would seemingly fly in the face of that and I wouldn't love those moves, even though they'd make our team incrementally better. IMO, those are the kind of "too small to be big but too big to be small" kinds of moves we should avoid right now.

Imo, someone like Cam would be a great upgrade, but we can manage with Champ and Barnes.
But we can't manage without another good big and without a perimeter player who can take the ball and somewhat reliably score at will. Devin should be that player in theory, but we see how that's going.

Those two fit our two biggest needs and wouldn't cost much, we'd also get rid of two negative contracts in our rotation.
Assuming CP3 isn't here the next season, we'd be set up pretty well for it:

Castle/Sexton
Devin/?
Champagnie/?
Barnes/Jeremy
Wemby/Collins

That's a solid 8 man rotation with Bassey playing depending on the matchup. Branham, Sidy and Wesley probably stay as third stringers.
Then we hopefully get NAW in free agency and draft a Champagnie upgrade.

That's a poverty 25-26 rotation with no major moves since PATFO are so reluctant to make them.

[scott]

Imo, someone like Cam would be a great upgrade, but we can manage with Champ and Barnes.
But we can't manage without another good big and without a perimeter player who can take the ball and somewhat reliably score at will. Devin should be that player in theory, but we see how that's going.

Those two fit our two biggest needs and wouldn't cost much, we'd also get rid of two negative contracts in our rotation.
Assuming CP3 isn't here the next season, we'd be set up pretty well for it:

Castle/Sexton
Devin/?
Champagnie/?
Barnes/Jeremy
Wemby/Collins

That's a solid 8 man rotation with Bassey playing depending on the matchup. Branham, Sidy and Wesley probably stay as third stringers.
Then we hopefully get NAW in free agency and draft a Champagnie upgrade.

That's a poverty 25-26 rotation with no major moves since PATFO are so reluctant to make them.

Honestly I'd be pretty disappointed if that was our team going into next season. I think you were correct in your previous post that a bigger move for that #2 guy needs to be our top priority. The MIN pick and swap are too high of a cost to address backup C and backup guard right now, IMO. Spend seconds to get Jonas, moves like that if you aren't going big.

[Knoxxx]

Rebounding Woes Cost Spurs Another Close Game, This Time Against Minnesota (https://www.si.com/nba/spurs/news/rebounding-woes-cost-spurs-another-close-game-against-minnesota)

[rascal]

Honestly I'd be pretty disappointed if that was our team going into next season. I think you were correct in your previous post that a bigger move for that #2 guy needs to be our top priority. The MIN pick and swap are too high of a cost to address backup C and backup guard right now, IMO. Spend seconds to get Jonas, moves like that if you aren't going big.

Agree

You don't want to send out first round picks for backups to what the Spurs currently already have.

[exstatic]

Agree

You don't want to send out first round picks for backups to what the Spurs currently already have.

That’s not what the market is. Brooklyn has set the price as multiple SRPs, and that’s for good rotation pieces like Schröder and DFS.

[scott]

That’s not what the market is. Brooklyn has set the price as multiple SRPs, and that’s for good rotation pieces like Schröder and DFS.

The specific hypothetical being addressed here is two FRPs plus Keldon, Zollins and Tre for John Jollins and Colin Sexton. I'm way out on that deal, and it sounds like rascal is too.

[exstatic]

The specific hypothetical being addressed here is two FRPs plus Keldon, Zollins and Tre for John Jollins and Colin Sexton. I'm way out on that deal, and it sounds like rascal is too.

Me, three.

[CGD]

The specific hypothetical being addressed here is two FRPs plus Keldon, Zollins and Tre for John Jollins and Colin Sexton. I'm way out on that deal, and it sounds like rascal is too.

That’s an atrocious deal. Like what’s the point other than to say you made a trade?

[Dverde]

Sexton and Collins were very available in the past for the Spurs and the organization didn’t pursue either.

[BatManu20]

I wonder what Vassell's realistic trade value is right now. I imagine it can't be very high. Would be selling low on him tbh.

[BatManu20]

1873866894492787127

[cutewizard]

much talk, but do the Spurs FO ever move? lol

[DAF86]

The team isn't. It's not deep enough. They'll have a good offseason.

The team isn't because it's trash. Move some net negative players for some positive ones and see how that changes.

Moving players like Keldon, Collins and even Tre is a must, not only to have a better team but to help our 4th overall pick develop among a more cohesive unit. Castle went from RoY favourite to not even being an all-rookie after being sent to the bench and having to play alongside those guys.

[KingKev]

I wonder what Vassell's realistic trade value is right now. I imagine it can't be very high. Would be selling low on him tbh.

Another teams young project who is about to sign a rookie extension or recently has and a couple of SRPs tbh.

[eric365]

The team isn't because it's trash. Move some net negative players for some positive ones and see how that changes.

Moving players like Keldon, Collins and even Tre is a must, not only to have a better team but to help our 4th overall pick develop among a more cohesive unit. Castle went from RoY favourite to not even being an all-rookie after being sent to the bench and having to play alongside those guys.

Exactly how keldon, collins (even sochan and vessel) etc… hurt Victor development last year
The tunnel vision was so hard to watch. It’s crazy how having CP3 on the floor has changed everything.

[LeBowen]

Exactly how keldon, collins (even sochan and vessel) etc… hurt Victor development last year
The tunnel vision was so hard to watch. It’s crazy how having CP3 on the floor has changed everything.

Those final few weeks of the season when they sat Devin, Jeremy and Keldon should've been eye opening for the front office. But apparently not.
Supposed second, third and best player on the team sat and Spurs still went 4-3 with Wemby and scrubs. Three losses were against Nuggets (5 points), Sixers (OT) and Warriors (4 points) and we also beat the Nuggets.

CP3 and Champagnie are our second and third most reliable players.
Yeah, Devin and Keldon can have better offensive nights, but they can't be relied on.
Jeremy should be the glue guy and primary perimeter defender, instead he's almost tied with our second leading scorer.

[Pauleta14]

Another teams young project who is about to sign a rookie extension or recently has and a couple of SRPs tbh.

You sell high, not low.

Vassell's game isn't the issue, only his fragility is.

Collins Keldon Tre Mamu Bassey Brahman Wesley are.

[LeBowen]

You sell high, not low.

Vassell's game isn't the issue, only his fragility is.

Collins Keldon Tre Mamu Bassey Brahman Wesley are.

Branham and Wesley aren't an issue as long as they keep collecting DNPs. They're third stringers on rookie deals.
Yeah, they shouldn't have had their options picked up, but it's not like we'll be lacking cap space if we need to make a big move in the summer.

Mamu also isn't an issue. Minimum contract third stringers who's not playing at all. I'd argue that he's more useful than Keldon.

Tre is an issue because CP3 is way better even at his age and Castle needs to be the development priority.
Mediocre backup at best, undersized playmaker who can't really shoot. Great as an emergency solution, but he shouldn't be regular rotation member.

Collins is an issue cap wise, but as long as he's not playing I'm fine. But he needs to be upgraded to a servicable backup right away.

Right now Keldon is our biggest issue. We saw that we absolutely don't need him while he was injured, there's nothing he provides that others can't, he just takes minutes away from better players.
And he really needs to go.

Devin is an issue because the fragility you mentioned causes him to constantly be out of rythm and peak shape which we can't afford. He's not an elite player even when in peak condition, let alone when he's constantly recovering from something.
I wouldn't dump him, but as soon as there's an opportunity to get a serious upgrade like Fox, he should be the first one who gets moved.

We need so many players for the future and all the "we're in no hurry" talk is getting annoying because we won't change the entire roster in one summer.
If we're talking long-term, this is where we stand right now:

Castle/?
Devin/?
?/Champagnie
?/Jeremy
Wemby/?

And even this is generous. We need to see if Castle can actually develop into a legit starting point guard.
We need to see if Devin can stay healthy and not be a defensive turnstile.
Champagnie is probably the safest bet on the roster after Wemby and he can start until we get a legit forward.
Jeremy can't be the starter long-term with his lack of jumpshot, but he can probably be the fan favorite 6th man who does everything else.
We also need a serious Wemby backup. Not a young player, but someone experienced who will always deliver and won't complain about playing just 10 to 15 minutes in most games.

We'll need 4 to 6 new players, legit players if we're to be a serious playoff team in 25-26 season. Anything less than that would be a huge disservice to Wemby who's clearly going to be a legit MVP candidate from next season onwards.

[R. DeMurre]

Yeah, I think many people look at the roster and still hope 65% of it will be there for Wemby's first championship run, but I doubt that's the reality. If you look at past stars like Jordan, Giannis, and Jokic-- guys who were drafted by bad teams-- their teams had almost complete roster turn over before championship runs were plausible... Jokic got Murray in his second year, Giannis had Middleton in his rookie year, and none of Jordan's original teammates won rings with him-- so that's two guys total out of those three franchises. Even Timmy's San Antonio teams changed drastically between the '99 title and the '03 title. Plus as players draft off of Wemby's impact, they'll inevitably get offers in line with someone like Bruce Brown, so that could siphon off more guys in search of extra money and PT. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Wemby's first ring doesn't feature a single teammate from his rookie season, and at most I would bet on 2 or 3 total.

[Pauleta14]

Branham and Wesley aren't an issue as long as they keep collecting DNPs. They're third stringers on rookie deals.
Yeah, they shouldn't have had their options picked up, but it's not like we'll be lacking cap space if we need to make a big move in the summer.

Mamu also isn't an issue. Minimum contract third stringers who's not playing at all. I'd argue that he's more useful than Keldon.

Tre is an issue because CP3 is way better even at his age and Castle needs to be the development priority.
Mediocre backup at best, undersized playmaker who can't really shoot. Great as an emergency solution, but he shouldn't be regular rotation member.

Collins is an issue cap wise, but as long as he's not playing I'm fine. But he needs to be upgraded to a servicable backup right away.

Right now Keldon is our biggest issue. We saw that we absolutely don't need him while he was injured, there's nothing he provides that others can't, he just takes minutes away from better players.
And he really needs to go.

Devin is an issue because the fragility you mentioned causes him to constantly be out of rythm and peak shape which we can't afford. He's not an elite player even when in peak condition, let alone when he's constantly recovering from something.
I wouldn't dump him, but as soon as there's an opportunity to get a serious upgrade like Fox, he should be the first one who gets moved.

We need so many players for the future and all the "we're in no hurry" talk is getting annoying because we won't change the entire roster in one summer.
If we're talking long-term, this is where we stand right now:

Castle/?
Devin/?
?/Champagnie
?/Jeremy
Wemby/?

And even this is generous. We need to see if Castle can actually develop into a legit starting point guard.
We need to see if Devin can stay healthy and not be a defensive turnstile.
Champagnie is probably the safest bet on the roster after Wemby and he can start until we get a legit forward.
Jeremy can't be the starter long-term with his lack of jumpshot, but he can probably be the fan favorite 6th man who does everything else.
We also need a serious Wemby backup. Not a young player, but someone experienced who will always deliver and won't complain about playing just 10 to 15 minutes in most games.

We'll need 4 to 6 new players, legit players if we're to be a serious playoff team in 25-26 season. Anything less than that would be a huge disservice to Wemby who's clearly going to be a legit MVP candidate from next season onwards.

I'm not expecting the whole roster to be elite but when more than half is useless it's an issue.

Brahman and Wesley will still be under contract next season, so unless they're part of a trade they'll be there again... smh

I love Mamu but let's not lie to ourselves, he's made for the euro game at best bc of his lack of athleticism. He's useless vs quality opponents

I don't even value Tre as a "great" option, bc he takes PT away from Castle and never moves the needle anyway. Even in case of injuries, the PG duties can be spread to other backcourt players and Vic who loves it

Why doesn't Sochan have a model and/or player he could compete with? How is he supposed to get better when good or bad he knows he'll play? (I'm sorry but aside of the inflated stats mostly due to being spoon-fed I haven't seen many improvements in his court awareness, poise, decisions, passing etc)

I agree with the rest of your points and will add that my main worry is the coaching position, who's so important for the personality of the team, I'm afraid PATFO will want to keep going with Mitch, which would delay even more the development.

Let's just hope I'm wrong but I don't see at all the changes you expect happening

[Seventyniner]

PaMLl7CIKAg

Not that I would want the Spurs to do it, but it's fun to imagine. Simmons says Zion can only succeed with a good organization. He thinks Miami and San Antonio are the two best landing spots for Zion, and that if the Spurs get him the rest of the league would say "oh shit". Start around 1:08:00.

[LeBowen]

Not that I would want the Spurs to do it, but it's fun to imagine. Simmons says Zion can only succeed with a good organization. He thinks Miami and San Antonio are the two best landing spots for Zion, and that if the Spurs get him the rest of the league would say "oh shit". Start around 1:08:00.

Am I the only one who thinks Zion wasn't actually that good when it comes to actually winning basketball games, even when he was fully healthy?
Yeah, he was borderline unstoppable when attacking the paint, but it's 2025 and he's a non-shooter with awful defense.

Would be useful in a certain role, but he's not a max player with all of his flaws, health aside.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Yeah Zion is a super weird fit. On offense he'd be clogging the lane for Wemby, his best use was as a sort of a point forward but this also clashes with how Wemby operates. On defense it's even worse, because of course you'd have a generational defender drop deep and protect the paint, which would mean having Zion chase perimeter players.

[exstatic]

Yeah Zion is a super weird fit. On offense he'd be clogging the lane for Wemby, his best use was as a sort of a point forward but this also clashes with how Wemby operates. On defense it's even worse, because of course you'd have a generational defender drop deep and protect the paint, which would mean having Zion chase perimeter players.

You have to imagine him filling a role unlike what he’s doing now. Like, imagine that Jeremy is outgoing in the trade, and Zion is filling his role in the dunkers spot playing off Wemby. His career 3 mark is also 34.1, pretty close to the league average 34.5-35%. Now imagine that no one is paying attention to him because there’s this guy named Victor on the floor, too. I think that shooting could tick up a point or two.

It’s a fun thought exercise, and I would never even entertain it as that if his contract weren’t fully non guaranteed at this point. There would also have to be some sort of rapprochement with Pop before any deal where the law is laid down, he is told that he is NOT the star here and that his fat ass will be whipped into shape, or else he will be waived and get no more money. I wouldn’t envision him being any kind of long term piece, but it would be an opportunity for him to rehab his image in a very real way.

[baseline bum]

Meh people don't change. Zion is what he is, a lazy fuck who couldn't give a shit about winning. Hard pass as anything other than a salary dump. Like if the Spurs could salary dump Zollins and Keldon to NOP and then cut Zion to open up capspace to go after Naz Reid and Caruso in the summer I'd be for it.

[Dverde]

Spurs not bringing a personality like Zion around Wemby :lol. You would think these talking heads would learn this stuff.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

You have to imagine him filling a role unlike what he’s doing now. Like, imagine that Jeremy is outgoing in the trade, and Zion is filling his role in the dunkers spot playing off Wemby. His career 3 mark is also 34.1, pretty close to the league average 34.5-35%. Now imagine that no one is paying attention to him because there’s this guy named Victor on the floor, too. I think that shooting could tick up a point or two.

Yeah I'm not paying him $40+ mil to be a garbage man on offense and a horrible defender.

[spurraider21]

Yeah Zion is a super weird fit. On offense he'd be clogging the lane for Wemby, his best use was as a sort of a point forward but this also clashes with how Wemby operates. On defense it's even worse, because of course you'd have a generational defender drop deep and protect the paint, which would mean having Zion chase perimeter players.
i mean at the very least, offensively he'd be a roided out sochan.

but yeah, doesnt make the most sense, he's poor defensively, will be extremely expensive and wont have the role to justify it, and frankly just doesnt seem to care about the game all that much

[scott]

Meh people don't change. Zion is what he is, a lazy fuck who couldn't give a shit about winning. Hard pass as anything other than a salary dump. Like if the Spurs could salary dump Zollins and Keldon to NOP and then cut Zion to open up capspace to go after Naz Reid and Caruso in the summer I'd be for it.

FYI, Caruso extended with OKC for 4/81.

[scott]

Hear me out... wanna know what would be amazing?

6th Man Zion.

(Not for $40MM/yr tho... and let's be honest, Zion is even less reliable health-wise than Nephew)

[LeBowen]

Hear me out... wanna know what would be amazing?

6th Man Zion.

(Not for $40MM/yr tho... and let's be honest, Zion is even less reliable health-wise than Nephew)

If we're talking Pelicans, I'd rather have Ingram than Zion...and I really don't like Ingram.

[scott]

If we're talking Pelicans, I'd rather have Ingram than Zion...and I really don't like Ingram.

If I'm the Pelicans (and I actually think NOP is a fun team to play make-believe GM with), I'd look to get rid of both for the max I can get right now. NOP fans I chatted with elsewhere seem to think they'll keep one and only one. They say dumping both is "too much change at once" but I don't understand that logic. They're the worst team in the league - some of that because of bad luck - but the facts are the facts. DJM/Trey/Herb/Missi is a pretty good nucleus to build around. Both Flagg and Harper fit nicely into that core, IMO. Flagg would be a less talented but exponentially more reliable with actual worth ethic version of Zion on offense, who actually brings defense. I hope Flagg lands here for the sake of the league and that team, who's fans deserve better.

I still don't see them getting much for Zion, though "anonymous league sources" seem to think that GM's will pay up for his potential. BI should be able to net them a late FRP from a contender at a minimum. NOP can afford to take back some salary and rent some cap space to get more draft capital if they move both of them.

[baseline bum]

If I'm the Pelicans (and I actually think NOP is a fun team to play make-believe GM with), I'd look to get rid of both for the max I can get right now. NOP fans I chatted with elsewhere seem to think they'll keep one and only one. They say dumping both is "too much change at once" but I don't understand that logic. They're the worst team in the league - some of that because of bad luck - but the facts are the facts. DJM/Trey/Herb/Missi is a pretty good nucleus to build around. Both Flagg and Harper fit nicely into that core, IMO. Flagg would be a less talented but exponentially more reliable with actual worth ethic version of Zion on offense, who actually brings defense. I hope Flagg lands here for the sake of the league and that team, who's fans deserve better.

I still don't see them getting much for Zion, though "anonymous league sources" seem to think that GM's will pay up for his potential. BI should be able to net them a late FRP from a contender at a minimum. NOP can afford to take back some salary and rent some cap space to get more draft capital if they move both of them.

Yeah NOP deserves Flagg or Harper after the way they have gotten screwed over by both Davis and Zion while making good faith attempts to put winners around them. But can't front, if the Spurs aren't lucking into Flagg, Harper, or Bailey I want them going east. Fucking west was already difficult enough last year and now we just added two more contenders in Memphis and Houston this season.

[Seventyniner]

Zion is the kind of player I would get in 2K but not in real life.

I think the supposed "oh shit" reaction by the rest of the league would be that the Spurs must really think they can turn Zion around if they trade for him, which would make the Spurs scary, even though the Spurs probably don't deserve that level of cachet anymore.

The fit would be awkward but his talent level is immense, and high-end talent is something the Spurs sorely lack outside of Wemby.

[Em-City]

If we're talking Pelicans, I'd rather have Ingram than Zion...and I really don't like Ingram.

I'm taking Murphy tbh