2025 NBA Draft

[CGD]

What makes Knueppel more valuable for the Spurs than Tre Johnson?

It's a fair question. My assumption was that Johnson would be gone before we picked.

I would like him personally, and because he (on paper) projects to do a lot of what Dev does, it could be a way to reset the Dev contract if they opt to move him.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

What makes Knueppel more valuable for the Spurs than Tre Johnson?

IQ, defense and the ability to be a connective piece.

I like Johnson more than the non-shooting prospects bandied about but his defense is atrocious and it’s not even that he’s lazy, he’s just really bad. Watching him try to defend is like watching Sochan shoot it’s painful.

[DAF86]

IQ, defense and the ability to be a connective piece.

I like Johnson more than the non-shooting prospects bandied about but his defense is atrocious and it’s not even that he’s lazy, he’s just really bad. Watching him try to defend is like watching Sochan shoot it’s painful.

Is Knueppel good on defense? I haven't seen him much, but he seems pretty flat footed. Is he a smart team defender?

I've checked Tre Johnson some and yeah, he screams low IQ, style over substance, one trick pony.

I'm really not that high on either and that's saying something since I'm the #1 advocate in adding some more shooting.

[scottspurs]

Knueppel is not necessarily a good defender but he understands positioning and knows how to use his large frame. He will get beat a lot in the NBA by quicker more athletic players but he does a really good job of knowing where to be when he recovers. He will know how to funnel people to Wemby. But by no means will be be a good defender. Feet are to slow and he lacks the athleticism. He will get by and be average because of his IQ

Tre J is not necessarily a bad defender but Texas hid him because he did so much on offense at Texas. He can definitely be coached up to be a better defender in the NBA because he slides his feet well, is long and has much better athleticism than Kon.

[DAF86]

The more footage I see of Fleming, the more I'm convincing myself that he should be the guy with our first pick.

The doubts come from him being a 3 year prospect, but his improvements seem for real. It's not just that he's shooting 39% from 3 on 5 attempts per game, he passes the eye test too. He shoots it with confidence and not only on spot ups, coming off screens too.

Then, there's the defense. He's more of a 4/5 than a 4/3 and probably won't be able to hang with NBA guards, but what 6'10" forward really does? With his physical build and athletic traits he's always gonna be a plus on the defensive end. 7'5" wingspan, imagine pairing that with Wemby. Folks would need the Godfather of pitch sales to sell me that Kon fucking Knueppel is a better get at our range.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

The more footage I see of Fleming, the more I'm convincing myself that he should be the guy with our first pick.

The doubts come from him being a 3 year prospect, but his improvements seem for real. It's not just that he's shooting 39% from 3 on 5 attempts per game, he passes the eye test too. He shoots it with confidence and not only on spot ups, coming off screens too.

Then, there's the defense. He's more of a 4/5 than a 4/3 and probably won't be able to hang with NBA guards, but what 6'10" forward really does? With his physical build and athletic traits he's always gonna be a plus on the defensive end. 7'5" wingspan, imagine pairing that with Wemby. Folks would need the Godfather of pitch sales to sell me that Kon fucking Knueppel is a better get at our range.

I like Fleming a lot too because of his tools but it's not a given that everything will translate to the NBA. Look at Davion Mitchell's college career - obviously totally different players, but similar statistical output - both had a significant shooting improvement in year three, while not being great free throw shooters throughout. Mitchell's shot didn't translate, nor did his stellar defense. It's not impossible to project the same for Fleming, especially since he's played against much worse competition. Fleming isn't exactly nimble, so if he ends up an undersized center with a questionable shot he'd have like a 9th man ceiling.

As for Knueppel, scottspurs explained it well. He's a smart defender who knows where to be, the question is whether he'd be able to do it against good athletes. His ceiling is high not because of defense but because he has shown high level of creation.

[mudyez]

What are your reasonable hopes for the lotterie, ...aka if you had a chance to take another roll but if so had to take the later one matter what...at what point would you stick with the former rather than risking it?

For me:
(1) We jump into the top4
(2) OKC doesn't get the 76ers pick
(3) Flagg goes East

...I'd take anything that is (1) and/or (2)+(3) as long as we stay at #8.

[Ice009]

I don't understand your question. Take another roll? Can you please rephrase it?

[mudyez]

With what result you would be ok...not calling it bad luck?

Eg I would be ok with us not jumping as long as OKC doesn't get the 76ers pick and Flagg goes east.

[exstatic]

What are your reasonable hopes for the lotterie, ...aka if you had a chance to take another roll but if so had to take the later one matter what...at what point would you stick with the former rather than risking it?

For me:
(1) We jump into the top4
(2) OKC doesn't get the 76ers pick
(3) Flagg goes East

...I'd take anything that is (1) and/or (2)+(3) as long as we stay at #8.

If these three teams are in the top 4 and Houston isn’t, I’m happy:

Spurs
Philly (no OKC pick)
Sacto (no ATL pick)

[Ice009]

With what result you would be ok...not calling it bad luck?

Eg I would be ok with us not jumping as long as OKC doesn't get the 76ers pick and Flagg goes east.

OK, got it. Thanks. Rather than focus solely on the Spurs, interesting to think about this stuff too.

I wouldn't care too much if OKC got that pick if the Spurs got into the top 4, but if they don't, and OKC get that pick, it would be a bit devastating (I don't even want to talk/think about this).

I'd also much rather Cooper go East like you said, as some of those East teams really need to improve. I don't want him on a WC team (unless the basketball gods somehow get him to the Spurs). The balance of power needs a shift over to the East as I think that would be good for the league as a whole.

Edit : What Exstatic said. I forgot about Houston. I don't want Houston getting in there under any circumstance.

[The Truth #6]

I like Jase and Fleming. Though I'm curious who may fall with our second pick.

[CGD]

So time is this 13/14 pick coin flip?

[exstatic]

So time is this 13/14 pick coin flip?

Same time as the 9/10 and 11/12 flips.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

I like Fleming a lot too because of his tools but it's not a given that everything will translate to the NBA. Look at Davion Mitchell's college career - obviously totally different players, but similar statistical output - both had a significant shooting improvement in year three, while not being great free throw shooters throughout. Mitchell's shot didn't translate, nor did his stellar defense. It's not impossible to project the same for Fleming, especially since he's played against much worse competition. Fleming isn't exactly nimble, so if he ends up an undersized center with a questionable shot he'd have like a 9th man ceiling.

As for Knueppel, scottspurs explained it well. He's a smart defender who knows where to be, the question is whether he'd be able to do it against good athletes. His ceiling is high not because of defense but because he has shown high level of creation.

No one has guaranteed to translate his play to NBA. But FLeming's transition should be the easiest. Here are the reaons:

1. He will be used as a role player and play the same role as college: shoot 3s; cut, defend bigs.

2. He already has NBA frame and don't need to gain weight which could slow him down.

3. He is already long arms and raise his long arms high when he shoot 3s. Hard to closeout in NBA, just like college.

[scottspurs]

A note on Fleming. I’m also high on him but he does have a slow delivery and a hitch to his jump shot. It may not translate to the NBA. He starts the ball at his left hip, comes across his body and then leans back a little when he shoots. Takes a long time for him to get his shot up because of that. Also jumps into his shot before the ball gets there which is unnecessary. He may need to be wide open in the NBA to be able to do all that. An NBA shooting coach will be able to fix all of that but it may take time.

He was a Junior this past year and got better every year in college so that shows he will put in the work. That’s the main reason I remain high on him being able to shoot in the NBA. I just don’t think his shot will translate right away as you move further away from the basket in the NBA. He will bring energy, defense, steals and blocked shots right away though. He can play the 4/5 and maybe even the 3. He showed ability to guard on the perimeter in college but the level of competition was not good. Will his perimeter defense translate to the NBA? If it doesn’t and the shots don’t fall he will end up being over drafted. Even then he could play a role but maybe not have the starter upside.

[scottspurs]

A note on Fleming. I’m also high on him but he does have a slow delivery and a hitch to his jump shot. It may not translate to the NBA. He starts the ball at his left hip, comes across his body and then leans back a little when he shoots. Takes a long time for him to get his shot up because of that. Also jumps into his shot before the ball gets there which is unnecessary. He may need to be wide open in the NBA to be able to do all that. An NBA shooting coach will be able to fix all of that but it may take time.

He was a Junior this past year and got better every year in college so that shows he will put in the work. That’s the main reason I remain high on him being able to shoot in the NBA. I just don’t think his shot will translate right away as you move further away from the basket in the NBA. He will bring energy, defense, steals and blocked shots right away though. He can play the 4/5 and maybe even the 3. He showed ability to guard on the perimeter in college but the level of competition was not good. Will his perimeter defense translate to the NBA? If it doesn’t and the shots don’t fall he will end up being over drafted. Even then he could play a role but maybe not have the starter upside.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Nice observation Scottspurs!

I just saw his quick and high release. But you have expert eyes!

[scottspurs]

It’s not quick it all. He does have a high release but he does like 10 things before he gets it up

[spurraider21]

He also showed no really issue getting contested shots off and seemed comfortable shooting with a hand in his face.

the form can be cleaned up a bit

[scottspurs]

The coin toss for lottery picks is happening right now. Not sure if it’s televised anywhere or when the results will be announced

[The Truth #6]

RF seems to gather the shot too low, but I wouldn't say it's slow. His shot looks confident and mechanically consistent. Slow would be Jeremy imho.

[montgod]

The coin toss for lottery picks is happening right now. Not sure if it’s televised anywhere or when the results will be announced

Yeah I couldn't find where it would be reported either. Probably announce it during one of the games or something this evening.

[John B]

The coin toss for lottery picks is happening right now. Not sure if it’s televised anywhere or when the results will be announced


https://images.app.goo.gl/imgwfxouDxtrZKbm8

[scottspurs]

https://images.app.goo.gl/imgwfxouDxtrZKbm8
Tails never fails

[scottspurs]

Did some research and the NBA announced the draft coin flips last year on this Monday at 4:36 central time

[duncan2150]

https://x.com/NBAPR/status/1914425345509302378/photo/1

PICK 14

[Vienna]

The more footage I see of Fleming, the more I'm convincing myself that he should be the guy with our first pick.

The doubts come from him being a 3 year prospect, but his improvements seem for real. It's not just that he's shooting 39% from 3 on 5 attempts per game, he passes the eye test too. He shoots it with confidence and not only on spot ups, coming off screens too.

Then, there's the defense. He's more of a 4/5 than a 4/3 and probably won't be able to hang with NBA guards, but what 6'10" forward really does? With his physical build and athletic traits he's always gonna be a plus on the defensive end. 7'5" wingspan, imagine pairing that with Wemby. Folks would need the Godfather of pitch sales to sell me that Kon fucking Knueppel is a better get at our range.

a #8 pick for Fleming……? Jesus.
the doubts don‘t come from him being a 3rd year player, the doubts come from the fact that he is a 3rd year player on a mediocre team (#84 in the country) that plays in a mediocre conference and he was still just the 3rd option on this team on rather low usage. that he choked big time in the conference tournament and the NIT didn’t help.
that‘s the point when I would ask, why couldn‘t a player, who is athletically far superior to his peers, not get a bigger role on such a team, if he was a lottery talent? and why could‘t this superior athlete power forward get to the line more often than 2.9 times a game? I mean, he can‘t pass either. there is something missing, right?

btw. people freak out because of his 7’5 wingspan. as if Rakeem Christmas was that much of a success story.

First off, that number war self reported. Givoney jumped on it, because he is obsessed with wingspan, singe he built his carrer on talking about wingspan instead of talking about skills. yaeh, Fleming might have some long arms. So what.
Oscar Tshibwe has some really long arms and he might be the best rebounds in the history of the g league…..do we bring him in next?

[spurraider21]

https://x.com/NBAPR/status/1914425345509302378/photo/1

PICK 14
damn, this means that had Dallas beaten Memphis in the play-in, we'd have gotten the #13 pick and the Kings would have kept their #12 pick instead of shipping it to ATL

i think Hawks will look seriously at Sorber and Jase Richardson

[scott]

I'm fading the Spurs in any and all coin flip competitions going forward.

[SpurSpike]

I know some family of Micah Peavly and was told the Spurs sent someone to look at him recently. Could be a good target for the second round 3D wing if his shooting improvement this year was real. Shot 40% on 4.1 attempts/game (was closer to 30% in previous years)

https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/a-scouts-eyes-micah-peavy-i-the-ingredients

[Guru of Nothing]

You had one job!

[Ice009]

Does Atlanta get a higher pick than the Spurs via the Kings?

[mo7888]

Does Atlanta get a higher pick than the Spurs via the Kings?

No

[Biggems]

1. The Spurs got burned as fuck by Kawhi, who turned out to be a turncoat asshole of the highest order.

2. Primo did show signs of being a good dude, and I'm sure Nick Oats gave glowing recs when he was called, among other people.

2b. Whether Nick Oats knew about his sexual obsession of exposing himself and lied about it, we don't know.

3. The Spurs fucked up by not taking Sengun, as many here wanted. So did a lot of teams. Presti drafted him and immediately trade him to the rival Rockets.

4. It will never be clear whether Primo would have been alright if he could have been developed. He was showing flashes, although was a long-term thing.

But yeah, character became an even bigger consideration after Kawhi stabbed an icy dagger in their back.

But do we get Wemby if we draft Sengun? I would love and Wemby/Sengun front court. I doubt it could have happened.

[scottspurs]

Worst case scenario

1. Rockets- Cooper Flagg
2. Mavericks- Dylan Harper
3. Blazers- Ace Bailey
4. Hornets- VJ Edgecombe
5. Jazz- Tre Johnson
6. Wizards- Derik Queen
7. Hornets- Kon Knueppel
8. Thunder- Khaman Maluach
9. Nets- Kasparas Jakucionis
10. Raptors- Rasheer Fleming
11. Spurs- Thomas Sorber
12. Bulls- Nique Clifford
13. Hawks- Asa Newell
14. Spurs- Traore, Fears, Richardson, Demin, Essengue?

[Ice009]

What percentage chance is there moving up from 14th?

[scottspurs]

What percentage chance is there moving up from 14th?

0.7% for top pick

[scottspurs]

0.7% for top pick
1.25% was the biggest move up to #1 overall ever so it would make history

[intlspurshk]

The worse case scenario is not so bad. Carter Byrant, Richardson, Demin, Clifford, Essengue, CMB, Boogie could all be very decent bench player for guards and forwards.

[CGD]

Worst case scenario

1. Rockets- Cooper Flagg
2. Mavericks- Dylan Harper
3. Blazers- Ace Bailey
4. Hornets- VJ Edgecombe
5. Jazz- Tre Johnson
6. Wizards- Derik Queen
7. Hornets- Kon Knueppel
8. Thunder- Khaman Maluach
9. Nets- Kasparas Jakucionis
10. Raptors- Rasheer Fleming
11. Spurs- Thomas Sorber
12. Bulls- Nique Clifford
13. Hawks- Asa Newell
14. Spurs- Traore, Fears, Richardson, Demin, Essengue?

In this worst case scenario (there is an over 30% chance pick is lower than 8 btw), just go grab who you they're eying at 14 (I've liked Liam or Sorber myself at that position). With any luck the other will be there at the actual 14th pick.

Also, Fleming is not going in the Top 10 (not sure he even makes the lottery). He's a junior.

[Ice009]

1.25% was the biggest move up to #1 overall ever so it would make history

Thanks a lot ScottSpurs. I should have said, though, I just meant moving from 14th to other spots. Basically, what are the chances of moving from 14th to something higher?

Getting first would be amazing, but I'm not greedy enough to try and nab 1st with it.

I'm not used to all this lottery stuff as I never really followed it until the Spurs got Victor. During the Tim Duncan era, the Spurs never really got any lottery picks, so I never really looked at how it all worked.
Isn't there also a rule where the worst 3 teams or so are guaranteed a top 5 pick?

[rjv]

What percentage chance is there moving up from 14th?

out of the 1000 combinations that are assigned to the teams, the 14th slotted team receives only 7 of them. with the 60 from the 6th slot, the spurs will have 67 combinations.

[scott]

Thanks a lot ScottSpurs. I should have said, though, I just meant moving from 14th to other spots. Basically, what are the chances of moving from 14th to something higher?

Getting first would be amazing, but I'm not greedy enough to try and nab 1st with it.

I'm not used to all this lottery stuff as I never really followed it until the Spurs got Victor. During the Tim Duncan era, the Spurs never really got any lottery picks, so I never really looked at how it all worked.
Isn't there also a rule where the worst 3 teams or so are guaranteed a top 5 pick?

https://tankathon.com/pick_odds

[DAF86]

a #8 pick for Fleming……? Jesus.
the doubts don‘t come from him being a 3rd year player, the doubts come from the fact that he is a 3rd year player on a mediocre team (#84 in the country) that plays in a mediocre conference and he was still just the 3rd option on this team on rather low usage. that he choked big time in the conference tournament and the NIT didn’t help.
that‘s the point when I would ask, why couldn‘t a player, who is athletically far superior to his peers, not get a bigger role on such a team, if he was a lottery talent? and why could‘t this superior athlete power forward get to the line more often than 2.9 times a game? I mean, he can‘t pass either. there is something missing, right?

btw. people freak out because of his 7’5 wingspan. as if Rakeem Christmas was that much of a success story.

First off, that number war self reported. Givoney jumped on it, because he is obsessed with wingspan, singe he built his carrer on talking about wingspan instead of talking about skills. yaeh, Fleming might have some long arms. So what.
Oscar Tshibwe has some really long arms and he might be the best rebounds in the history of the g league…..do we bring him in next?

Danny Green wouldn't be able to be anything other than a 3rd option on any school either, yet he was a vital part of our championship winning squad for years. We are not looking for go to scorers anymore. We need players that fit a role. A 6'10" guy with a 7'5" (or whatever you think he has) wingspan that is an athletic freak and shoots threes at a 40% clip seems pretty valuable to me, tbh.

[DAF86]

In this worst case scenario (there is an over 30% chance pick is lower than 8 btw), just go grab who you they're eying at 14 (I've liked Liam or Sorber myself at that position). With any luck the other will be there at the actual 14th pick.

Also, Fleming is not going in the Top 10 (not sure he even makes the lottery). He's a junior.

Most of the mocks I've seen have him there.

[Dejounte]

Someone ask the Warriors why they’re not playing their long athletic freak in Kuminga. Oh yeah, it’s because he doesn’t know how to play basketball. The Spurs need to get guys who know how to hoop. It’s like y’all havent learned your lesson with Keldon, Vassell, Branham, etc.

This post isnt about Fleming specifically but moreso criticizing how people put too much stock in length and height.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Danny Green wouldn't be able to be anything other than a 3rd option on any school either, yet he was a vital part of our championship winning squad for years. We are not looking for go to scorers anymore. We need players that fit a role. A 6'10" guy with a 7'5" (or whatever you think he has) wingspan that is an athletic freak and shoots threes at a 40% clip seems pretty valuable to me, tbh.

I endorse your message!

[Ice009]

out of the 1000 combinations that are assigned to the teams, the 14th slotted team receives only 7 of them. with the 60 from the 6th slot, the spurs will have 67 combinations.

So if you add the two together it slightly increases the odds. So do the two picks get added together for the Spurs' combinations rather than treated as separate picks?


https://tankathon.com/pick_odds

Thanks. The odds of moving into the top 4 are even lower than I thought.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

In this worst case scenario (there is an over 30% chance pick is lower than 8 btw), just go grab who you they're eying at 14 (I've liked Liam or Sorber myself at that position). With any luck the other will be there at the actual 14th pick.

Also, Fleming is not going in the Top 10 (not sure he even makes the lottery). He's a junior.

Fleming likely will not be in the lottery. But not because of he is a junior. Jalen Williams was picked at age of 22.

The reason is that he is not projected to have much upside. Most lottery teams will pick for star potential.

So, he will be safely there at pick #14. A perfect match for spurs.

[Degoat]

I haven’t dug too much into the prospects but I keep seeing that it’s a deep draft but it doesn’t really look that way lol only certainty is Flagg

[scott]

I haven’t dug too much into the prospects but I keep seeing that it’s a deep draft but it doesn’t really look that way lol only certainty is Flagg

I don't think it's a deep or strong draft at all, but opinions are mixed. Someone like Sam Vecenie would agree with me (rather, I agree with him... he's not looking to my opinion for anything) while there are some others who really like this draft.

[mystargtr34]

DAF’s comparison to Danny Green is a good one. Danny could barely dribble a basketball or make a layup, but the dude excelled at shooting 3’s and locking down on the other end.

Similar with Tiago Splitter, couldn’t shoot, didn’t have much of a dribble game, but the dude rebounded and defended. That’s what the Spurs needed around Duncan, Kawhi, Tony and Manu from 2011-2016.

Spurs need more Danny Green and Tiago Splitter at their 3 and 4 positions to round out the starting 5 next to Wemby, Fox, Castle.

At some point you need to add defense, rebounding and shooting.

I’m still open to guys like Kon, but if he’s 6’5 without shoes with short arms you are going to have to play him as a guard with spot minutes at forward and fill out the 3 and 4 spots either with the second pick or via trade or free agency.

[mystargtr34]

Also, the Spurs can’t afford to go into next season with a forward rotation of Barnes, Sochan, Champagnie, Keldon.

The ceiling of the team will be capped at 40-45 wins I don’t care how much of a leap Wemby and Castle make with Fox.

[scott]

DAF’s comparison to Danny Green is a good one. Danny could barely dribble a basketball or make a layup, but the dude excelled at shooting 3’s and locking down on the other end.

Similar with Tiago Splitter, couldn’t shoot, didn’t have much of a dribble game, but the dude rebounded and defended. That’s what the Spurs needed around Duncan, Kawhi, Tony and Manu from 2011-2016.

Spurs need more Danny Green and Tiago Splitter at their 3 and 4 positions to round out the starting 5 next to Wemby, Fox, Castle.

At some point you need to add defense, rebounding and shooting.

I’m still open to guys like Kon, but if he’s 6’5 without shoes with short arms you are going to have to play him as a guard with spot minutes at forward and fill out the 3 and 4 spots either with the second pick or via trade or free agency.

I agree with your analogy that is what we need, but #8 and #14 is typically a little high for those kinds of players. With that said, I feel this draft is pretty weak and that's all there is in that range.

Personally, I'd rather trade one of those picks for a sure thing of that kind of player than use a lotto pick on someone who may or may not turn into that kind of player.

[mystargtr34]

Agree Scott the 8/14 picks don’t have to be as limited as Danny. They can be versions of Danny who have a bit more offensive game for example. I’m ok with high end role players at both those picks.

[Dejounte]

Here’s my theory on how the Spurs will make their selection.


I think a big factor in picking Castle was how he looked in workouts with the team before the draft. I followed all the reporting after they picked him, and it sounded like he really impressed everyone during scrimmages. That’s similar to how they approached picking Branham and Wesley, and even Primo to a degree. I think they genuinely value seeing how a prospect stacks up against the guys already on the roster. It makes sense—they know their own players better than anyone. They’ve seen how they perform in practice, what drills they run, how consistent they are. So if someone new comes in and clearly looks better, it’s probably an easy decision.


Now thinking through it more, what kind of player would actually stand out in those settings? It’s probably not a guy who’s just a shooter or one-dimensional. I think it’s someone who knows how to run plays, make smart reads, do multiple things on the floor, and just looks a step ahead. That fits with what Brian Wright always talks about when he mentions versatility and guys who can play multiple positions.


I also think there’s something to how a player carries himself. The kind of guy who naturally becomes a leader or someone the others gravitate toward. Sochan, Vassell, Castle, and Branham are all going to Europe together. My guess is they’re looking for someone who can fit in with that group—someone who clicks with them enough to be invited on that kind of trip.

[DAF86]

Someone ask the Warriors why they’re not playing their long athletic freak in Kuminga. Oh yeah, it’s because he doesn’t know how to play basketball. The Spurs need to get guys who know how to hoop. It’s like y’all havent learned your lesson with Keldon, Vassell, Branham, etc.

This post isnt about Fleming specifically but moreso criticizing how people put too much stock in length and height.

'Cause he can't shoot. I bet you if Kuminga was even average at 3pt shooting, he would be getting time.

[Mr. Body]

Here’s my theory on how the Spurs will make their selection.


I think a big factor in picking Castle was how he looked in workouts with the team before the draft. I followed all the reporting after they picked him, and it sounded like he really impressed everyone during scrimmages. That’s similar to how they approached picking Branham and Wesley, and even Primo to a degree. I think they genuinely value seeing how a prospect stacks up against the guys already on the roster. It makes sense—they know their own players better than anyone. They’ve seen how they perform in practice, what drills they run, how consistent they are. So if someone new comes in and clearly looks better, it’s probably an easy decision.


Now thinking through it more, what kind of player would actually stand out in those settings? It’s probably not a guy who’s just a shooter or one-dimensional. I think it’s someone who knows how to run plays, make smart reads, do multiple things on the floor, and just looks a step ahead. That fits with what Brian Wright always talks about when he mentions versatility and guys who can play multiple positions.


I also think there’s something to how a player carries himself. The kind of guy who naturally becomes a leader or someone the others gravitate toward. Sochan, Vassell, Castle, and Branham are all going to Europe together. My guess is they’re looking for someone who can fit in with that group—someone who clicks with them enough to be invited on that kind of trip.

This doesn't seem right at all. The Spurs were scouting Castle all year at UConn. They were very aware of who he was as a player well before the draft process.

[Chinook]

It would be interesting to consider where Danny Green would go in a modern draft. Three-and-D prospects aren't easy to find in college because the diffuse talent pool means guys will often play positions above where they'll end up in the pros. Danny's senior year at UNC, he shot 41 percent from three on seven attempts per 40. His advanced stats were pretty strong as well. With teams still in the mindset that shooting could be outsourced and three-and-D wings being all the rage, you'd expect Green to have been taken higher. But he was a mid-second-rounder. History says Danny was definitely underdrafted -- dude ended up being a top-10 player in what was a pretty decent draft class. But the marks against him were seen as too big for him to overcome. Maybe with today's focus on shooting, Green could have been drafted much higher. But then I think about Harrison Ingram, who last year had a number of superficial similarities to 2009 Green. He was drafted at around the same spot that Danny was, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.

That's all to say that if the Spurs felt like some prospect was going to be the next Danny Green, it's definitely worth it to draft him at 13/14 and probably at 8 as well. Green was insanely valuable in multiple systems. Actual great role-players are worth their weight in gold. This class as a distressing number of non-shooters at the top of the board. I'd honestly feel uncomfortable if the Spurs drafted yet another guy who's a project in that area. The only position where I think that's okay is for the back-up center spot, but you'd ideally want a good roadmap toward good shooting in those cases as well to leave open the chance that prospect could play some minutes with Wembanyama.

I personally see all five positions as open in this draft. The team needs rotational guards, wings, forwards and bigs, and if you add in the potential of them trading some rotation players in another attempt to improve the top-end talent, then even the current locks are up for discussion. There are a couple of players who seem like good sixth-man candidates, and that's important if the Spurs are going to move on from Johnson and/or Vassell within the next couple of years. I also think they should take the backup center spot seriously and both draft a center and sign a vet this summer. Whether that vet is an MLE signing or a min guy would depend on whether they draft a center in the lottery or in the second round.

I also think they should consider how much they want to bank on Castle being a real piece going forward. In my opinion, he is the clear ROY winner and has some nice potential. But he was extremely inefficient on both ends. On one hand, he might have that "it" factor. On the other hand, it's going to be hard for the team to seriously compete with Castle starting and shooting as poorly as he usually does. I think the team has another year of figuring things out ahead of it, but if they do decide to try to take a step forward, and Castle can provide the bulk of the value for a third star, it could make sense to move him and focus on shooters to fill out the starting lineup.

[cutewizard]

We really need shooters

[cutewizard]

https://youtu.be/bW4ybJ608WI?si=J4SuxJumkos-2DBM

[Dejounte]

This doesn't seem right at all. The Spurs were scouting Castle all year at UConn. They were very aware of who he was as a player well before the draft process.
I am not saying it’s the ONLY thing they used to evaluate players, but what I am saying is that it played a big factor because they saw these prospects up close and personal while measuring their skill against their own players who they saw everyday. That’s all my point is.

[Dejounte]

'Cause he can't shoot. I bet you if Kuminga was even average at 3pt shooting, he would be getting time.
This is absolutely the wrong reason and Warrior fans will scoff at you. Again, you are oversimplifying the situation.

[Vienna]

Danny Green wouldn't be able to be anything other than a 3rd option on any school either, yet he was a vital part of our championship winning squad for years. We are not looking for go to scorers anymore. We need players that fit a role. A 6'10" guy with a 7'5" (or whatever you think he has) wingspan that is an athletic freak and shoots threes at a 40% clip seems pretty valuable to me, tbh.

Danny Green was a crucial part of one of the most dominant college teams in history. what role he would have played on a weak team you don't know and I don't know.

Danny Green was the perfect role player, because he had the IQ to fit in his role and he was a great defender, because he was so smart. the similarity to Fleming is beyond my imagination.

yes, every now and then a 2nd rounder outplays his draft position, like DG did. so what. if this is the logic to use pick 8 for a 2nd rounder (and Fleming is a 2nd rounder IMO), because he somehow fits a need for a certain type of role player, you will end up with the worst team in the league soon. Fleming will be a center in the NBA, because he lacks the skills for a modern forward. he will be a back up center. you don't pick Richaun Holmes at 8. you pick him in the 2nd round, because most Richaun Holmes will deliver a Richaun Holmes career.

[Vienna]

I know some family of Micah Peavly and was told the Spurs sent someone to look at him recently. Could be a good target for the second round 3D wing if his shooting improvement this year was real. Shot 40% on 4.1 attempts/game (was closer to 30% in previous years)

https://www.noceilingsnba.com/p/a-scouts-eyes-micah-peavy-i-the-ingredients

I really like Peavy. no problem, if they use #38 on him. reminds on the Derrick White pick.

[CGD]

Also, the Spurs can’t afford to go into next season with a forward rotation of Barnes, Sochan, Champagnie, Keldon.

The ceiling of the team will be capped at 40-45 wins I don’t care how much of a leap Wemby and Castle make with Fox.

That’s sounds like a great progression (winning another 10 games).

[SpursBills]

Someone ask the Warriors why they’re not playing their long athletic freak in Kuminga. Oh yeah, it’s because he doesn’t know how to play basketball. The Spurs need to get guys who know how to hoop. It’s like y’all havent learned your lesson with Keldon, Vassell, Branham, etc.

This post isnt about Fleming specifically but moreso criticizing how people put too much stock in length and height.

I'll be honest with you I've been here long enough now that I think I have a pretty good handle on how some posters approach the draft / evaluate draft prospects, but you were one of the last people I thought would've been so high on Fleming early. Not that it's wrong or anything, but his "type" goes against the kind of guys you typically like.

[rankingtear]

A "potential" Danny Green is not a lottery pick.

[mo7888]

It would be interesting to consider where Danny Green would go in a modern draft. Three-and-D prospects aren't easy to find in college because the diffuse talent pool means guys will often play positions above where they'll end up in the pros. Danny's senior year at UNC, he shot 41 percent from three on seven attempts per 40. His advanced stats were pretty strong as well. With teams still in the mindset that shooting could be outsourced and three-and-D wings being all the rage, you'd expect Green to have been taken higher. But he was a mid-second-rounder. History says Danny was definitely underdrafted -- dude ended up being a top-10 player in what was a pretty decent draft class. But the marks against him were seen as too big for him to overcome. Maybe with today's focus on shooting, Green could have been drafted much higher. But then I think about Harrison Ingram, who last year had a number of superficial similarities to 2009 Green. He was drafted at around the same spot that Danny was, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.

That's all to say that if the Spurs felt like some prospect was going to be the next Danny Green, it's definitely worth it to draft him at 13/14 and probably at 8 as well. Green was insanely valuable in multiple systems. Actual great role-players are worth their weight in gold. This class as a distressing number of non-shooters at the top of the board. I'd honestly feel uncomfortable if the Spurs drafted yet another guy who's a project in that area. The only position where I think that's okay is for the back-up center spot, but you'd ideally want a good roadmap toward good shooting in those cases as well to leave open the chance that prospect could play some minutes with Wembanyama.

I personally see all five positions as open in this draft. The team needs rotational guards, wings, forwards and bigs, and if you add in the potential of them trading some rotation players in another attempt to improve the top-end talent, then even the current locks are up for discussion. There are a couple of players who seem like good sixth-man candidates, and that's important if the Spurs are going to move on from Johnson and/or Vassell within the next couple of years. I also think they should take the backup center spot seriously and both draft a center and sign a vet this summer. Whether that vet is an MLE signing or a min guy would depend on whether they draft a center in the lottery or in the second round.

I also think they should consider how much they want to bank on Castle being a real piece going forward. In my opinion, he is the clear ROY winner and has some nice potential. But he was extremely inefficient on both ends. On one hand, he might have that "it" factor. On the other hand, it's going to be hard for the team to seriously compete with Castle starting and shooting as poorly as he usually does. I think the team has another year of figuring things out ahead of it, but if they do decide to try to take a step forward, and Castle can provide the bulk of the value for a third star, it could make sense to move him and focus on shooters to fill out the starting lineup.

Your Castle take is quite interesting. If one ascribed to the theory that he's not efficient enough or won't become efficient enough going forward then the most reasonable course of action is to use that 'it factor' perception to trade him now when his value is the highest. I'm not sure I'm there on that evaluation, but it makes for an intriguing discussion.

[CGD]

Your Castle take is quite interesting. If one ascribed to the theory that he's not efficient enough or won't become efficient enough going forward then the most reasonable course of action is to use that 'it factor' perception to trade him now when his value is the highest. I'm not sure I'm there on that evaluation, but it makes for an intriguing discussion.

I think it will ultimately come down to Fox v Castle before they entertain moving him. Not happening any time soon, but perhaps by the start of Castle’s fourth year.

That, or Castle evolves into a small forward and they find good shooting at the 2 and/or 4 positions.

[Ice009]

The Castle take is very interesting as I started noticing/focusing on his efficiency after Victor went out. I loved Steph most of the season, but the only thing I didn't love was his efficiency (I know some people mentioned that being a rookie likely plays a big part in that), and I think some of that comes down to his shooting.
I love that he gets to the rim and either scores or draws fouls, but he seems to force it sometimes due to not having a good/great shot IMO. With less touches, he's going to have to be more efficient.

Also, I didn't take as much note when he was playing with Victor if he was more efficient during that time and got less efficient after Victor was ruled out for the rest of the season? I'm no good at number crunching, but that is something I was interested in knowing (if his efficiency went down, stayed the same or went up a little bit when Victor went out).

[mo7888]

I think it will ultimately come down to Fox v Castle before they entertain moving him. Not happening any time soon, but perhaps by the start of Castle’s fourth year.

That, or Castle evolves into a small forward and they find good shooting at the 2 and/or 4 positions.

Probably, but playing Devils advocate for the sake of discussion, if you wait that long and Chinook's right about his efficiency then you won't get anything for him at that point. Of course the counter argument is, if you trade him now and he does improve his efficiency then you've lost an asset.

[Chinook]

Probably, but playing Devils advocate for the sake of discussion, if you wait that long and Chinook's right about his efficiency then you won't get anything for him at that point. Of course the counter argument is, if you trade him now and he does improve his efficiency then you've lost an asset.

The swing factor there is how much you trade him for. If you trade him at the value of a player who will be a future star, and he becomes a future star, then you didn't lose out on the value. You just paid full price. If he doesn't pan out, then you paid less than full price. On the filp side, if you trade him at a "decent prospect" valuation and he becomes a star, you miss out and if he doesn't you didn't overpay.

Castle's impact isn't merely based on whether he becomes a strong shooter. Jimmy Butler is a good example of a player that has never been a great shooter but manages, whereas DeRozan can't help but kill offenses with his lack of shooting. But if he doesn't shoot well, it becomes far harder to see how he and Fox can work well together. I don't think Fox/Castle/Wemby and two shooters are ultimately enough for a starting lineup. I think they have time to figure that out, though. I was thinking about this for two main reasons:

A) If the Spurs are going to go for a third star via trade this year or free agency next year, it's going to be even harder to see how Fox/Castle/(Third Star)/(Forward)/Wembanyama works. Castle is already going to be more of an off-ball player if he starts after Wemby comes back. Adding another scorer in the first unit makes that even more likely. Castle's inefficiency on both ends is fine on a tanking team with no legit offensive options. It's much harder to justify poor shooting and ineffective defense as a role-player on a team with multiple stars and which would be trying to win as much as possible.

B) The Spurs shouldn't let Castle's presence affect their board the same way they let Wemby's or Fox's place on the team. Steph may be traded or not develop, and even if he doesn't, his versatility means he can play with basically anyone. I really hope the Spurs don't take yet another butter-shot player high in the draft. But there are a couple of guards in the draft that might be good rotation players, and honestly the back half of the lottery doesn't look great for forwards anyway. They should just take BPA and look to consolidate their talent to balance the roster. If they don't like the talent at their spot on the board, it's a good year to trade around. There's logic both in combining 8 and 13/14 to move up to the top 5 for the right guy or in trading down to pick up a future first. They just shouldn't be in love with their roster so much that they let that keep them from bringing in talented rookies.

[CGD]

Probably, but playing Devils advocate for the sake of discussion, if you wait that long and Chinook's right about his efficiency then you won't get anything for him at that point. Of course the counter argument is, if you trade him now and he does improve his efficiency then you've lost an asset.

Don’t see a world where they trade the newly minted ROY this summer. Nor do I see what major star would become available this summer that would necessitate such a more — spurs also already made their big “summer” move in February. Would be a good exercise to revisit next summer though.

Someone else said this elsewhere: absent lotto magic we are drafting bench pieces for next year. I think they mostly want to see the new configuration with Fox, will add a few vets, and churn through the deep bench guys.

[mo7888]

The swing factor there is how much you trade him for. If you trade him at the value of a player who will be a future star, and he becomes a future star, then you didn't lose out on the value. You just paid full price. If he doesn't pan out, then you paid less than full price. On the filp side, if you trade him at a "decent prospect" valuation and he becomes a star, you miss out and if he doesn't you didn't overpay.

Castle's impact isn't merely based on whether he becomes a strong shooter. Jimmy Butler is a good example of a player that has never been a great shooter but manages, whereas DeRozan can't help but kill offenses with his lack of shooting. But if he doesn't shoot well, it becomes far harder to see how he and Fox can work well together. I don't think Fox/Castle/Wemby and two shooters are ultimately enough for a starting lineup. I think they have time to figure that out, though. I was thinking about this for two main reasons:

A) If the Spurs are going to go for a third star via trade this year or free agency next year, it's going to be even harder to see how Fox/Castle/(Third Star)/(Forward)/Wembanyama works. Castle is already going to be more of an off-ball player if he starts after Wemby comes back. Adding another scorer in the first unit makes that even more likely. Castle's inefficiency on both ends is fine on a tanking team with no legit offensive options. It's much harder to justify poor shooting and ineffective defense as a role-player on a team with multiple stars and which would be trying to win as much as possible.

B) The Spurs shouldn't let Castle's presence affect their board the same way they let Wemby's or Fox's place on the team. Steph may be traded or not develop, and even if he doesn't, his versatility means he can play with basically anyone. I really hope the Spurs don't take yet another butter-shot player high in the draft. But there are a couple of guards in the draft that might be good rotation players, and honestly the back half of the lottery doesn't look great for forwards anyway. They should just take BPA and look to consolidate their talent to balance the roster. If they don't like the talent at their spot on the board, it's a good year to trade around. There's logic both in combining 8 and 13/14 to move up to the top 5 for the right guy or in trading down to pick up a future first. They just shouldn't be in love with their roster so much that they let that keep them from bringing in talented rookies.

You should come back and post more...good stuff..

[mo7888]

Don’t see a world where they trade the newly minted ROY this summer. Nor do I see what major star would become available this summer that would necessitate such a more — spurs also already made their big “summer” move in February. Would be a good exercise to revisit next summer though.

Someone else said this elsewhere: absent lotto magic we are drafting bench pieces for next year. I think they mostly want to see the new configuration with Fox, will add a few vets, and churn through the deep bench guys.

I agree with the 1st part (not trading ROY) if the 2nd part is true (no major stars on the market).... that said, I think there's a real possibility that a couple big names are on the market this summer. Now if they fit in our plans is a whole other topic.

[Twisted_Dawg]

If Flagg balks at going to the team with the #1 pick, does Castle and #8 get a trade done?

[CGD]

If Flagg balks at going to the team with the #1 pick, does Castle and #8 get a trade done?

I think that leverage is gone now that he’s declared for the draft?

[buttsR4rebounding]

I think that leverage is gone now that he’s declared for the draft?

He can pull out after the lottery occurs and go back to school.

[Chinook]

You should come back and post more...good stuff..

I anticipate being around more over the next few months. The draft and summer league are my favorite times of the NBA season, even as ESPN has kind of ruined the format compared to how it was 15 years ago.

[Ice009]

I anticipate being around more over the next few months. The draft and summer league are my favorite times of the NBA season, even as ESPN has kind of ruined the format compared to how it was 15 years ago.

What have they changed since then? I don't really remember.

Hopefully you're not too busy to post more.

[SPURt]

0.7% for top pick
https://media1.tenor.com/m/VKU7xwwZJ_EAAAAC/dumb-and-dumber-lloyd.gif

[Chinook]

Don’t see a world where they trade the newly minted ROY this summer. Nor do I see what major star would become available this summer that would necessitate such a more — spurs also already made their big “summer” move in February. Would be a good exercise to revisit next summer though.

Someone else said this elsewhere: absent lotto magic we are drafting bench pieces for next year. I think they mostly want to see the new configuration with Fox, will add a few vets, and churn through the deep bench guys.

The question is if Castle is part of their core or not. If he doesn't become a passable shooter, it's much more difficult for him to get to that point. I'm not an advocate of the team trading for a third star -- I wasn't even an advocate of them trading for Fox, but it was a decent deal because the team didn't have to cut into the quick to make it happen. But now, the Spurs would be legit leveraging themselves if they wanted to trade. They'd have to consider the Stepien rule and potentially be giving up their unprotected picks. If they are in trade talks and are given the choice between Castle and a protected first or three unprotected firsts, the Spurs' projection of Steph really matters. It's not even just about if he's worth the picks on his own. It's if he's worth losing the flexibility of not having traded so many picks.

I agree that they should be fine drafting bench pieces. But I do know that they should be locked into that mentality. They need a two-guard who can space the floor in their starting lineup, and there's an option that could well be there. Besides Knueppel, yeah. Maybe someone like Newell will be a starter in 2026, but he's not unseating Barnes next year. Same goes for a guy like Murray-Boyles. They could end up drafting Queen and Richardson and really shore up their bench. My worry is they go with Demin and Essengue because they're in love with their position size and think being "postion-less" is more important than being able to stay on the floor in the first place.

[Chinook]

What have they changed since then? I don't really remember.

Hopefully you're not too busy to post more.

The Summer League used to be mainly for hard core fans and media. So it was mostly just televised on NBA TV or streamed online. I know when I was in college, I paid like eight bucks to get access to all the games, including replays. ESPN eventually got exclusive rights to broadcast the games, but they've been really inconsistent in caring about them, so they aren't all broadcast, at least not on their main channels. They try to hide a lot on their streaming service, which is much more annoying to me than a one-time payment for complete access. ESPN also wants to make money of their acquired rights, so the games have become more about the celebrity experience than just watching guys play basketball. A major consequence of that is that they abbreviated the tournament from its height in 2015 (the year the Spurs won). That might be their doing to make it fit better for their timeline, or it could have been the teams wanting a more predictable number of games for each team.

For a short while, they had that sweet spot of having a March Madness feel to the games without having all the bullshit that comes with March Madness. It was mostly just basketball, free of egos. Players would sit in the stands, as would the media junkies. It was just a chill down-to-Earth kind of feel. It feels much more like a media product now, and the quality of basketball played (since we're mostly talking about kids and washouts who've had a handful of practices with each other at best) doesn't really warrant that attention. ESPN's attempts to polish it just makes the actual product seem worse than it did when it was understood to not be anything but a series of scrimmage games.

[scott]

That's all to say that if the Spurs felt like some prospect was going to be the next Danny Green, it's definitely worth it to draft him at 13/14 and probably at 8 as well. Green was insanely valuable in multiple systems. Actual great role-players are worth their weight in gold. This class as a distressing number of non-shooters at the top of the board. I'd honestly feel uncomfortable if the Spurs drafted yet another guy who's a project in that area. The only position where I think that's okay is for the back-up center spot, but you'd ideally want a good roadmap toward good shooting in those cases as well to leave open the chance that prospect could play some minutes with Wembanyama.



First off, welcome back.

Second, I think this is a really fascinating discussion. On the surface, it makes a lot of sense. If you had a Crystal Ball and KNEW a player would have the exact outcome of peak Spurs Danny Green, then I agree... you absolutely take him at 8.

On the flip side... who is the modern day version of Danny Green? Just based on a quick, superficial glance at Crafted's best 3&D SF's (https://craftednba.com/player-traits/three-n-dee), and looking exclusively at guys under 28, we come up with this list:

Herb Jones
Jaden McDaniels
OG Anunoby
Haywood Highsmith (note: 28 years old)
Isaac Okoro
Vit Krejci
Deni Advija
Jake LaRavia
Justin Champagnie
Christian Braun

I think there is a fair question over whether you could acquire any of these guys for less, and have a "sure thing" (though not all of these guys are nearly as good as Danny was). There are a handful of guys who would probably cost you more (probably a lot more) than the #8 pick (OG, Herb, Advija). McDaniels I think would be close, considering that MIN would probably want to get off that contract if they can considering how hamstrung they are with their cap situation.

We can likely outright sign LaRavia for less than the MLE if we wanted him (and I do). Everyone else, I think their teams likely jump at a swap for the #14 pick, let alone the #8 pick.

Makes you think about whether its best to take a gamble that your #8 or #14 will reach the level of OG, Herb, Deni... or whether you're better off just acquiring the sure thing. I don't have a strong opinion right now... could go either way. It's a fascinating thought experiment. When I have more time I'll want to dig into deeper to the current 3&D wings around the league and marinate on this a little more.

[The Truth #6]

Neither Fox or Castle are great shooters, though Fox has had at least one season of being good from deep. It's hard for me to imagine trading Castle when they still don't really know how well Fox fits in. So I expect more waiting, which in this case actually seems reasonable while they see what they have with the two of them with a healthy Wemby. Obviously, a lot of uncertainty. What I do feel confident in saying is they absolutely need to improve their shooting development program no matter what they decide with Fox vs Castle.

[scott]

The idea of trading Castle is also a fun, important discussion (as much as folks might want to view Castle as untouchable... I'll still contend that only Wemby is truly untouchable).

Ideally, in trades you'd always find a way to send out your assets at their peak value. And the fact of the matter is that there is probably around an 85% chance that this is Castle's peak value. There is a decent chance (probably 50% of the outcomes) where Castle just goes on a development path where he stays what he is now, or gets worse. Any of those outcomes will result in his trade value diminishing over time because of 1) his age 2) his contract and 3) expectations of him developing into more are currently baked into his value.

I'd say there's about a 35% chance that he continues to develop on a path in line with what most reasonable folks would expect from a typical ROTY winner (by typical I mean not "generational" like Wemby, Luka, LeBron, etc). This 35% of outcomes is already baked into his trade value right now.

And there is probably about a 15% he exceeds those expectations and develops into an All-NBA type (which I don't think is the reasonable expectation of his future right now).

Translated, if you traded Castle now and got a "fair" return for him, there's probably about a 15% chance you end up looking really stupid and an 85% chance you're viewed neutrally or better.

Granted, on this next statement, the objective isn't always to merely sell off all your players and I don't want this to be viewed that way. You hope you draft players who are worth more on the court for you than their trade value and you just play them and win games. But... strictly viewing things from the lens of how the Spurs have taken advantage of maximizing the trade value of young assets:


Dejounte Murray - Absolutely traded at his peak value. A++++
Derrick White - Probably traded for fair value at the time but he developed into much more, so in highsight looks like kind of a bad trade except for the fact that it was part of the tear down that led to Wemby, so "no ragrets"
Jakob Poeltl - I'd say also traded pretty close to his peak value. Maybe a summer early you could have gotten more, maybe not? Either way, job very well done
Keldon Johnson - Obviously hasn't been traded, but we definitely missed the boat on his peak trade value.
Devin Vassell - A little harder to say, but I'd say we've most likely missed the boat on his peak trade value as well, if for no other reason than you'll get more for a guy still on his rookie deal versus when his extension has kicked in unless they are on true bargain extensions like Herb, TMIII, DJM and Derrick when we traded them, etc.
Jeremy Sochan - Looks like his peak trade value is also quickly fading into the rear view. If he signs what is perceived by the league to be an overpay on his extension, things will diminish further


If you're not going to trade the guy... timing his peak trade value is irrelevant. But if you do eventually trade them, you want to time it the way we did Dejounte and Derrick and NOT like if we were to trade any of the Power of Friendship now.

TL;DR version: Castle is most likely at his peak trade value now. If the Spurs for some reason don't see him as truly part of a "big 3" or even "big 2" going forward... then it is probably in their best interest to maximize their return now, as much as fans would hate it (they'd probably think we were as bad as Nico Harrison, tbh, but they'd probably end up proven wrong)

[sig]

Hold the roster steady then go get Luka in 2026 Free Agency. One more season with Lebron making 50 mil making it difficult to rebuild the Lakers much before 2026 free agency and should be enough to turn Luka away from LA.

[vy65]

The idea of trading Castle is also a fun, important discussion (as much as folks might want to view Castle as untouchable... I'll still contend that only Wemby is truly untouchable).

Ideally, in trades you'd always find a way to send out your assets at their peak value. And the fact of the matter is that there is probably around an 85% chance that this is Castle's peak value. There is a decent chance (probably 50% of the outcomes) where Castle just goes on a development path where he stays what he is now, or gets worse. Any of those outcomes will result in his trade value diminishing over time because of 1) his age 2) his contract and 3) expectations of him developing into more are currently baked into his value.

I'd say there's about a 35% chance that he continues to develop on a path in line with what most reasonable folks would expect from a typical ROTY winner (by typical I mean not "generational" like Wemby, Luka, LeBron, etc). This 35% of outcomes is already baked into his trade value right now.

And there is probably about a 15% he exceeds those expectations and develops into an All-NBA type (which I don't think is the reasonable expectation of his future right now).

Translated, if you traded Castle now and got a "fair" return for him, there's probably about a 15% chance you end up looking really stupid and an 85% chance you're viewed neutrally or better.

Granted, on this next statement, the objective isn't always to merely sell off all your players and I don't want this to be viewed that way. You hope you draft players who are worth more on the court for you than their trade value and you just play them and win games. But... strictly viewing things from the lens of how the Spurs have taken advantage of maximizing the trade value of young assets:


Dejounte Murray - Absolutely traded at his peak value. A++++
Derrick White - Probably traded for fair value at the time but he developed into much more, so in highsight looks like kind of a bad trade except for the fact that it was part of the tear down that led to Wemby, so "no ragrets"
Jakob Poeltl - I'd say also traded pretty close to his peak value. Maybe a summer early you could have gotten more, maybe not? Either way, job very well done
Keldon Johnson - Obviously hasn't been traded, but we definitely missed the boat on his peak trade value.
Devin Vassell - A little harder to say, but I'd say we've most likely missed the boat on his peak trade value as well, if for no other reason than you'll get more for a guy still on his rookie deal versus when his extension has kicked in unless they are on true bargain extensions like Herb, TMIII, DJM and Derrick when we traded them, etc.
Jeremy Sochan - Looks like his peak trade value is also quickly fading into the rear view. If he signs what is perceived by the league to be an overpay on his extension, things will diminish further


If you're not going to trade the guy... timing his peak trade value is irrelevant. But if you do eventually trade them, you want to time it the way we did Dejounte and Derrick and NOT like if we were to trade any of the Power of Friendship now.

TL;DR version: Castle is most likely at his peak trade value now. If the Spurs for some reason don't see him as truly part of a "big 3" or even "big 2" going forward... then it is probably in their best interest to maximize their return now, as much as fans would hate it (they'd probably think we were as bad as Nico Harrison, tbh, but they'd probably end up proven wrong)

Think you meant 50% here; the math doesn't work.

[scott]

Think you meant 50% here; the math doesn't work.

Nope, 85% (and of course these are not exact percentages). His trades value only increases from here if he hits that 15% of outcomes where he exceeds his current expectations. In the 50% scenario where he plateaus or gets worse, his value also declines. In the 35% scenario where he just continues to develop as expect, his trade value stays about the same.

[KobesAchilles]

Is Fox a bad shooter? I keep hearing his shooting isn’t good but I wonder how much is that him having to create for himself all the time? Is there a way (I’m sure there probably is) to find his shooting percentage on open looks instead of contested ones? Bc if Wemby is as good as we all think he’s going to be, Fox is about to get a whole lot of open shots and free lanes to drive in. Fox won’t ever be a great shooter but I could see him being league average at 35%.

Tbh I wouldn’t really look into trading Steph right now. I’d be more than willing to have him lead the offense off the bench if we do get a guy like Naz for example. In that case, we wouldn’t really need Steph to be a starter. It would also allow time for Steph to learn how to properly run an offense and to develop his shot over time. He made nearly 100 threes as a rookie. It’s fair to say he will put in the work to improve that shot. Unlike Sochan who in 3 years has only made 30 more threes or some bullshit like that.

Also I don’t even know what value Castle really has right now. Like I guess teams would ask for him but who would we even realistically trade him for. He wouldn’t be in a KD trade. I’d do a him for Murphy trade in a heartbeat but would the Pels? Tbh I’d rather slash Vassell and get Giddy and Aldama and go from there. Idk if I want Naz at the max anyways. I don’t like paying role players like star players.

[DAF86]

This is absolutely the wrong reason and Warrior fans will scoff at you. Again, you are oversimplifying the situation.

No, it is not absolutely wrong. With all the flaws you mention and his lsck of shooting, Kuminga was still getting heavy minutes in a deep Warriors team. Do you really think Kerr wouldn't be playing him right now if he shot it straight?

Over the years there have been countless exaples of extremely flawed players that could do only one or two things well and were vital parts of dynasties. I don't know what weird new fixation you have now with players "that can do it all", but there's still room in today's NBA for guys that play a role.

[scott]

Is Fox a bad shooter? I keep hearing his shooting isn’t good but I wonder how much is that him having to create for himself all the time? Is there a way (I’m sure there probably is) to find his shooting percentage on open looks instead of contested ones? Bc if Wemby is as good as we all think he’s going to be, Fox is about to get a whole lot of open shots and free lanes to drive in. Fox won’t ever be a great shooter but I could see him being league average at 35%.

Tbh I wouldn’t really look into trading Steph right now. I’d be more than willing to have him lead the offense off the bench if we do get a guy like Naz for example. In that case, we wouldn’t really need Steph to be a starter. It would also allow time for Steph to learn how to properly run an offense and to develop his shot over time. He made nearly 100 threes as a rookie. It’s fair to say he will put in the work to improve that shot. Unlike Sochan who in 3 years has only made 30 more threes or some bullshit like that.

Also I don’t even know what value Castle really has right now. Like I guess teams would ask for him but who would we even realistically trade him for. He wouldn’t be in a KD trade. I’d do a him for Murphy trade in a heartbeat but would the Pels? Tbh I’d rather slash Vassell and get Giddy and Aldama and go from there. Idk if I want Naz at the max anyways. I don’t like paying role players like star players.

Putting %s aside, I always like to think of shooting from another vantage point that is a bit more subjective but not too difficult to wrap heads around. Is a guy someone who you are willing to dare to shoot or are reasonably afraid of to beat you if given a good look?

Trae Young only shot 34% from 3 this year... but is he someone you want to leave open for a 3 with the game on the line? I think it's the same with Fox. Teams have to respect him as a 3pt threat. I think Castle is kind of on the fringe. Sochan, on the other hand, is clearly someone teams do not respect at all. He could hit three straight 3s, and they'd probably still be fine leaving him wide open and daring him to do it again.

Also, just want to go on the record and say I am not advocating for trading Castle... just having fun with an offseason thought experiment.

[DAF86]

Danny Green was a crucial part of one of the most dominant college teams in history. what role he would have played on a weak team you don't know and I don't know.

We might not know for sure but considering Danny played his entire NBA career and retired as a way below ball handler and finisher, it is tough to believe he could have been a go to player at any point of his college career.


Danny Green was the perfect role player, because he had the IQ to fit in his role and he was a great defender, because he was so smart. the similarity to Fleming is beyond my imagination.

Are you saying Fleming isn't smart?


yes, every now and then a 2nd rounder outplays his draft position, like DG did. so what. if this is the logic to use pick 8 for a 2nd rounder (and Fleming is a 2nd rounder IMO), because he somehow fits a need for a certain type of role player, you will end up with the worst team in the league soon.

But your opinion isn't reality, in every mock draft I've seen, he's predicted to go top 15.



Fleming will be a center in the NBA, because he lacks the skills for a modern forward. he will be a back up center. you don't pick Richaun Holmes at 8. you pick him in the 2nd round, because most Richaun Holmes will deliver a Richaun Holmes career.

I think he has enough mobility to play the 4 in the NBA. If he doesn't, it's true that his value would decrease, but having a mobile center that can switch 1 through 5 ocasionally and hit 3's at a good clip is still a great player to have, imho.

[DAF86]

I mean, there's risk with every pick. Sure, if Fleming ends up as a backup center in the NBA, it sounds bad for a #8 overall pick; but the player I'm seeing mocked the most at 8 for us is Kon Knueppel, a guy that can easily have just as low (if not lower) of a ceiling. We pick Kon at 8 and then he becomes an unplayable stiff that can only shoot 3's when wide open, how's that better than a backup center with mobility and 3pt range?

[mo7888]

The idea of trading Castle is also a fun, important discussion (as much as folks might want to view Castle as untouchable... I'll still contend that only Wemby is truly untouchable).

Ideally, in trades you'd always find a way to send out your assets at their peak value. And the fact of the matter is that there is probably around an 85% chance that this is Castle's peak value. There is a decent chance (probably 50% of the outcomes) where Castle just goes on a development path where he stays what he is now, or gets worse. Any of those outcomes will result in his trade value diminishing over time because of 1) his age 2) his contract and 3) expectations of him developing into more are currently baked into his value.

I'd say there's about a 35% chance that he continues to develop on a path in line with what most reasonable folks would expect from a typical ROTY winner (by typical I mean not "generational" like Wemby, Luka, LeBron, etc). This 35% of outcomes is already baked into his trade value right now.

And there is probably about a 15% he exceeds those expectations and develops into an All-NBA type (which I don't think is the reasonable expectation of his future right now).

Translated, if you traded Castle now and got a "fair" return for him, there's probably about a 15% chance you end up looking really stupid and an 85% chance you're viewed neutrally or better.

Granted, on this next statement, the objective isn't always to merely sell off all your players and I don't want this to be viewed that way. You hope you draft players who are worth more on the court for you than their trade value and you just play them and win games. But... strictly viewing things from the lens of how the Spurs have taken advantage of maximizing the trade value of young assets:


Dejounte Murray - Absolutely traded at his peak value. A++++
Derrick White - Probably traded for fair value at the time but he developed into much more, so in highsight looks like kind of a bad trade except for the fact that it was part of the tear down that led to Wemby, so "no ragrets"
Jakob Poeltl - I'd say also traded pretty close to his peak value. Maybe a summer early you could have gotten more, maybe not? Either way, job very well done
Keldon Johnson - Obviously hasn't been traded, but we definitely missed the boat on his peak trade value.
Devin Vassell - A little harder to say, but I'd say we've most likely missed the boat on his peak trade value as well, if for no other reason than you'll get more for a guy still on his rookie deal versus when his extension has kicked in unless they are on true bargain extensions like Herb, TMIII, DJM and Derrick when we traded them, etc.
Jeremy Sochan - Looks like his peak trade value is also quickly fading into the rear view. If he signs what is perceived by the league to be an overpay on his extension, things will diminish further


If you're not going to trade the guy... timing his peak trade value is irrelevant. But if you do eventually trade them, you want to time it the way we did Dejounte and Derrick and NOT like if we were to trade any of the Power of Friendship now.

TL;DR version: Castle is most likely at his peak trade value now. If the Spurs for some reason don't see him as truly part of a "big 3" or even "big 2" going forward... then it is probably in their best interest to maximize their return now, as much as fans would hate it (they'd probably think we were as bad as Nico Harrison, tbh, but they'd probably end up proven wrong)

I'm kinda considering Castle's value to the team reading all this. I agree with the statement that Fox and Castle aren't really the best backcourt pairing. Kon would actually fit better, but Kon, Jackucionis, or even De Larrea would fit well with Fox or Castle in a rotation while we figure out if Castle or Fox is part of our core. Personally, I agree with you that Wemby is the only untradable on this team. That said, I would only trade Castle in a bigger deal. I wouldn't trade him for picks (unless whoever gets #1 is dumb enough to make Cooper available).

[Manu&Duncan fan]

It's ridiculous to see people using Fleming' 7'-5" wing span to question his IQ.

He got 1.5 steals each game. Some of them is because of his long arms, some of them is anticipation. That means he has some good basketball IQ.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Goofing around on tankathon it feels impossible to have our hawks pick be above 14.

[baseline bum]

I agree with your analogy that is what we need, but #8 and #14 is typically a little high for those kinds of players. With that said, I feel this draft is pretty weak and that's all there is in that range.

Personally, I'd rather trade one of those picks for a sure thing of that kind of player than use a lotto pick on someone who may or may not turn into that kind of player.

Yeah the only pick I'd be wedded to would be if they get #1, obviously you take Flagg. But if they luck into 2-4 I'd rather trade with someone who really wants Harper, Edgecombe, Maluach, or Bailey.

[scott]

I'm kinda considering Castle's value to the team reading all this. I agree with the statement that Fox and Castle aren't really the best backcourt pairing. Kon would actually fit better, but Kon, Jackucionis, or even De Larrea would fit well with Fox or Castle in a rotation while we figure out if Castle or Fox is part of our core. Personally, I agree with you that Wemby is the only untradable on this team. That said, I would only trade Castle in a bigger deal. I wouldn't trade him for picks (unless whoever gets #1 is dumb enough to make Cooper available).

Personally, I still like the idea of the Fox/Castle/Wemby core. It's different than the NBA meta right now, but I don't think that means it can't work. Like I mentioned in my response to KobesAchilles about 3PT shooting, I think Fox and Castle will be threatening enough of 3PT shooters to provide effective spacing, and Wemby is such a unique tool that I think it's kind of silly to apply the league wide meta to a team that includes him, because no other team has him.

I do think that a certain archetype of wing is important to add to the backcourt of Fox and Castle. Both are guys who want to, and are effective (Fox certainly so, Castle is a bit more of a projection) at getting in the paint and scoring. Wemby's natural tendency has been to move to the perimeter, often pulling the opposing big with him, which is going to create space for Fox and Castle going towards the bucket. Fox and Castle in the PnR and inverted PnR with Wemby will be very nice. I'd also like to see Fox and Castle in the PnR with each other with Wemby and our other wings coming from an off-the-ball screen to a 3pt shooting spot.

Unfortunately, the ideal wings are pretty hard to come by... I want guys who can shoot the 3, rebound and defend. Most wings in the league are good at only 2 of the 3. Even high end versions of this idealized wing, guys like Naz, are only good at 2/3 (Naz isn't a great rebounder). Lauri is a the Ferrari of this archetype... poor defender. Maybe the ideal is that you find a guy who is primarily 3+D and only okay rebounding and the other guy is 3+Reb and okay but not great on defense?

Edit: just wanted to add I realize there are a lot of different ways to build this team. This is my personal favorite at this moment but I'm by no means suggesting this is the only way.

[baseline bum]

It would be interesting to consider where Danny Green would go in a modern draft. Three-and-D prospects aren't easy to find in college because the diffuse talent pool means guys will often play positions above where they'll end up in the pros. Danny's senior year at UNC, he shot 41 percent from three on seven attempts per 40. His advanced stats were pretty strong as well. With teams still in the mindset that shooting could be outsourced and three-and-D wings being all the rage, you'd expect Green to have been taken higher. But he was a mid-second-rounder. History says Danny was definitely underdrafted -- dude ended up being a top-10 player in what was a pretty decent draft class. But the marks against him were seen as too big for him to overcome. Maybe with today's focus on shooting, Green could have been drafted much higher. But then I think about Harrison Ingram, who last year had a number of superficial similarities to 2009 Green. He was drafted at around the same spot that Danny was, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.

That's all to say that if the Spurs felt like some prospect was going to be the next Danny Green, it's definitely worth it to draft him at 13/14 and probably at 8 as well. Green was insanely valuable in multiple systems. Actual great role-players are worth their weight in gold. This class as a distressing number of non-shooters at the top of the board. I'd honestly feel uncomfortable if the Spurs drafted yet another guy who's a project in that area. The only position where I think that's okay is for the back-up center spot, but you'd ideally want a good roadmap toward good shooting in those cases as well to leave open the chance that prospect could play some minutes with Wembanyama.

I personally see all five positions as open in this draft. The team needs rotational guards, wings, forwards and bigs, and if you add in the potential of them trading some rotation players in another attempt to improve the top-end talent, then even the current locks are up for discussion. There are a couple of players who seem like good sixth-man candidates, and that's important if the Spurs are going to move on from Johnson and/or Vassell within the next couple of years. I also think they should take the backup center spot seriously and both draft a center and sign a vet this summer. Whether that vet is an MLE signing or a min guy would depend on whether they draft a center in the lottery or in the second round.

I also think they should consider how much they want to bank on Castle being a real piece going forward. In my opinion, he is the clear ROY winner and has some nice potential. But he was extremely inefficient on both ends. On one hand, he might have that "it" factor. On the other hand, it's going to be hard for the team to seriously compete with Castle starting and shooting as poorly as he usually does. I think the team has another year of figuring things out ahead of it, but if they do decide to try to take a step forward, and Castle can provide the bulk of the value for a third star, it could make sense to move him and focus on shooters to fill out the starting lineup.

I look at Castle as a necessity because SGA and Luka aren't going away any time soon and the Spurs are going to need a big defensive guard to throw on these guys in the playoffs from the next 8-10 years. Someone who can deal with their strength. But unless he becomes a league average shooter it means the Spurs are going to have to have shooting at both the SF and PF.

[TD 21]

I also think they should consider how much they want to bank on Castle being a real piece going forward. In my opinion, he is the clear ROY winner and has some nice potential. But he was extremely inefficient on both ends. On one hand, he might have that "it" factor. On the other hand, it's going to be hard for the team to seriously compete with Castle starting and shooting as poorly as he usually does. I think the team has another year of figuring things out ahead of it, but if they do decide to try to take a step forward, and Castle can provide the bulk of the value for a third star, it could make sense to move him and focus on shooters to fill out the starting lineup.

Agreed. I'm not sold on Castle period, let alone his fit alongside Fox. I doubt he'll start next season (On This Season And Looking Ahead To The Off Season (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304942)), but it really doesn't matter because they'll obviously play plenty together anyway.

The last thing they need is Wembanyama being relegated to floor spacer for two inefficient guards with "alpha" tendencies.



Yeah the only pick I'd be wedded to would be if they get #1, obviously you take Flagg. But if they luck into 2-4 I'd rather trade with someone who really wants Harper, Edgecombe, Maluach, or Bailey.

Even if, as projected, they don't move into the top 4, their natural pick should be put into play for a young veteran starter.

rankingtear's idea of Murray would be ideal. A team that doesn't have a 1st, needs a PG (of course, at least one of Fears or Jakucionis would need to be available) and has a new GM who'll probably be looking to make a splash.



I look at Castle as a necessity because SGA and Luka aren't going away any time soon and the Spurs are going to need a big defensive guard to throw on these guys in the playoffs from the next 8-10 years. Someone who can deal with their strength. But unless he becomes a league average shooter it means the Spurs are going to have to have shooting at both the SF and PF.

Wing-forward size/strength is needed to be a credible Doncic defender. He bullies even the strongest guards, which is why the Celtics went Brown as the primary over Holiday in the Finals.

Even if Castle becomes a good enough shooter for defenses to not disregard, Fox and him will likely top out as a - shooting back court, which means they'll need a + shooting forward tandem anyway.

[Vienna]

Wasserman just updated his mock. He has Spurs pick Tre Johnson at #8, describing the scenario, that Tre falls, because Teams ahead go with Fears, Queen and Maluach. So Spurs go BPA at that point. At #14 Spurs pick CMB and at #38 Alex Toohey. I like the Tre pick, not so much the other two.

[The Truth #6]

Personally, I still like the idea of the Fox/Castle/Wemby core. It's different than the NBA meta right now, but I don't think that means it can't work. Like I mentioned in my response to KobesAchilles about 3PT shooting, I think Fox and Castle will be threatening enough of 3PT shooters to provide effective spacing, and Wemby is such a unique tool that I think it's kind of silly to apply the league wide meta to a team that includes him, because no other team has him.

I do think that a certain archetype of wing is important to add to the backcourt of Fox and Castle. Both are guys who want to, and are effective (Fox certainly so, Castle is a bit more of a projection) at getting in the paint and scoring. Wemby's natural tendency has been to move to the perimeter, often pulling the opposing big with him, which is going to create space for Fox and Castle going towards the bucket. Fox and Castle in the PnR and inverted PnR with Wemby will be very nice. I'd also like to see Fox and Castle in the PnR with each other with Wemby and our other wings coming from an off-the-ball screen to a 3pt shooting spot.

Unfortunately, the ideal wings are pretty hard to come by... I want guys who can shoot the 3, rebound and defend. Most wings in the league are good at only 2 of the 3. Even high end versions of this idealized wing, guys like Naz, are only good at 2/3 (Naz isn't a great rebounder). Lauri is a the Ferrari of this archetype... poor defender. Maybe the ideal is that you find a guy who is primarily 3+D and only okay rebounding and the other guy is 3+Reb and okay but not great on defense?

Edit: just wanted to add I realize there are a lot of different ways to build this team. This is my personal favorite at this moment but I'm by no means suggesting this is the only way.

Sounds like you're making a case for Fleming. Lol.

[mo7888]

Personally, I still like the idea of the Fox/Castle/Wemby core. It's different than the NBA meta right now, but I don't think that means it can't work. Like I mentioned in my response to KobesAchilles about 3PT shooting, I think Fox and Castle will be threatening enough of 3PT shooters to provide effective spacing, and Wemby is such a unique tool that I think it's kind of silly to apply the league wide meta to a team that includes him, because no other team has him.

I do think that a certain archetype of wing is important to add to the backcourt of Fox and Castle. Both are guys who want to, and are effective (Fox certainly so, Castle is a bit more of a projection) at getting in the paint and scoring. Wemby's natural tendency has been to move to the perimeter, often pulling the opposing big with him, which is going to create space for Fox and Castle going towards the bucket. Fox and Castle in the PnR and inverted PnR with Wemby will be very nice. I'd also like to see Fox and Castle in the PnR with each other with Wemby and our other wings coming from an off-the-ball screen to a 3pt shooting spot.

Unfortunately, the ideal wings are pretty hard to come by... I want guys who can shoot the 3, rebound and defend. Most wings in the league are good at only 2 of the 3. Even high end versions of this idealized wing, guys like Naz, are only good at 2/3 (Naz isn't a great rebounder). Lauri is a the Ferrari of this archetype... poor defender. Maybe the ideal is that you find a guy who is primarily 3+D and only okay rebounding and the other guy is 3+Reb and okay but not great on defense?

Edit: just wanted to add I realize there are a lot of different ways to build this team. This is my personal favorite at this moment but I'm by no means suggesting this is the only way.

If Castles shooting and D improve (and he has the tools) then i can see him fitting with Fox in the backcourt. It's the 3 and 4 positions I'm struggling with. We don't have anyone on the roster thats a longer term fit at the 3 or 4 if Castle is in the SL. Obviously Naz would be a great fit, AD would as well, but I doubt we could get either. Maybe John Collins is in that next tier that's gettable. Then you've got rookies that fit... Liam McNeely would be the best 3 we could realistically get in this draft. Fleming and Bryant would be next with Fleming being a 4 and Bryant a bit of a 3/4 who I think will develop into a 4.

Another option, if we think Castle can be a full time 3 is putting a guy like Kon or Jackucionis between he and Fox. Something like that would balance the SL.

[Chinook]

I look at Castle as a necessity because SGA and Luka aren't going away any time soon and the Spurs are going to need a big defensive guard to throw on these guys in the playoffs from the next 8-10 years. Someone who can deal with their strength. But unless he becomes a league average shooter it means the Spurs are going to have to have shooting at both the SF and PF.

It should be noted that right now, Castle's defense has been as ineffective as his shooting. That should change with experience, but it's not like good defenders have the same learning curve as scorers. Good role-players are usually good from jump street. I think the Spurs should continue to believe in Castle's potential there, but it's also possible that a guy like Knueppel could start at that position and immediately be a better defender as well as a better shooter. One thing that Sochan is showing us is that perimeter defense doesn't work like it used to. That's obvious for Jeremy's old-school bully-D, but it might also be true for 2010s WingStop-esque D. Finding a guy who can match up with Luka and SGA might not be as important to an elite defense as getting five to eight guys who can stay coordinated and not foul.

[CGD]

If Castles shooting and D improve (and he has the tools) then i can see him fitting with Fox in the backcourt. It's the 3 and 4 positions I'm struggling with. We don't have anyone on the roster thats a longer term fit at the 3 or 4 if Castle is in the SL. Obviously Naz would be a great fit, AD would as well, but I doubt we could get either. Maybe John Collins is in that next tier that's gettable. Then you've got rookies that fit... Liam McNeely would be the best 3 we could realistically get in this draft. Fleming and Bryant would be next with Fleming being a 4 and Bryant a bit of a 3/4 who I think will develop into a 4.

Another option, if we think Castle can be a full time 3 is putting a guy like Kon or Jackucionis between he and Fox. Something like that would balance the SL.

I like the idea of Castle at the SF. I’m not sure why there resistance to that idea other than the players statement from last year that he sees himself as a PG. He’s got the physical profile.

And as you say, it would give more options to address the SG via draft.

Fox
Dev (until supplanted by draftee)
Castle
Naz
Wemby

[scott]

Sounds like you're making a case for Fleming. Lol.

If the shoe fits, but I do not proclaim to know enough about Fleming to make that case for (or against) him. I'm kind of down on this draft overall and haven't put forth a ton of effort as a result but I'm relying upon my ST.com brethren to keep my educated on these kids.

[scott]

If Castles shooting and D improve (and he has the tools) then i can see him fitting with Fox in the backcourt. It's the 3 and 4 positions I'm struggling with. We don't have anyone on the roster thats a longer term fit at the 3 or 4 if Castle is in the SL. Obviously Naz would be a great fit, AD would as well, but I doubt we could get either. Maybe John Collins is in that next tier that's gettable. Then you've got rookies that fit... Liam McNeely would be the best 3 we could realistically get in this draft. Fleming and Bryant would be next with Fleming being a 4 and Bryant a bit of a 3/4 who I think will develop into a 4.

Another option, if we think Castle can be a full time 3 is putting a guy like Kon or Jackucionis between he and Fox. Something like that would balance the SL.

I mostly would like to see gravitate towards wings who are more of 3/4s than 2/3s (like we seem to have deployed Vassell this year, or what it would look like to deploy Castle as a 3).

If we did want to run with more of a "3 guard" lineup (whereby Castle was pushed to the 3 or some one like Vassell or any other 2/3 type wing) then I think we almost need to look to a 4/5 at the other forward spot, but ideally one who can shoot (so John Collins and not CMB, for example).

I am intrigued by someone like CMB, but I just don't know how he works with the rest of our players. With that said, I think Fox and Castle will still ultimately provide enough spacing that maybe it can work? IDK. Certainly I'm fearful of backup units where we do some shit like run out Wesley/Keldon/Sochan/CMB/Biyombo or something else ridiculous and act surprised when we can't score.

I'm trying to give more faith to the FO to assemble a functional roster, even though they really haven't demonstrated they can... but they've made good picks the last two years (though easier to do when you pick 1 and 4) and have generally made some good moves (Barnes, Fox). So I'm just gonna sit back and see how it all comes together. Certainly I have my opinions and preferences, but Brian still has never called to ask about my analytics so I'm guessing they still aren't going to :lol

[scott]

It should be noted that right now, Castle's defense has been as ineffective as his shooting. That should change with experience, but it's not like good defenders have the same learning curve as scorers. Good role-players are usually good from jump street. I think the Spurs should continue to believe in Castle's potential there, but it's also possible that a guy like Knueppel could start at that position and immediately be a better defender as well as a better shooter. One thing that Sochan is showing us is that perimeter defense doesn't work like it used to. That's obvious for Jeremy's old-school bully-D, but it might also be true for 2010s WingStop-esque D. Finding a guy who can match up with Luka and SGA might not be as important to an elite defense as getting five to eight guys who can stay coordinated and not foul.

Notable that Castle's Darko D-DPM history is almost directly inversely correlated with his Darko O-DPM. Steph showed promise on the defensive end to start the season, but as soon as he started to be relied upon more on the offensive end, the D went to the crapper. I'm hoping that maybe it was just a matter of having to do too much too soon and that he can return to being closer to a positive defender as his offensive load is reduced... but we'll see. He certainly has the tools and was billed as a high end defender coming out of UCONN... but then again, Devin was also billed a high end defender and then fell off a cliff on that end as his offensive game developed.

https://i.imgur.com/IcDHHJx.png

https://i.imgur.com/qg8kccB.png

[Chinook]

First off, welcome back.

Second, I think this is a really fascinating discussion. On the surface, it makes a lot of sense. If you had a Crystal Ball and KNEW a player would have the exact outcome of peak Spurs Danny Green, then I agree... you absolutely take him at 8.

On the flip side... who is the modern day version of Danny Green? Just based on a quick, superficial glance at Crafted's best 3&D SF's (https://craftednba.com/player-traits/three-n-dee), and looking exclusively at guys under 28, we come up with this list:

Herb Jones
Jaden McDaniels
OG Anunoby
Haywood Highsmith (note: 28 years old)
Isaac Okoro
Vit Krejci
Deni Advija
Jake LaRavia
Justin Champagnie
Christian Braun

I think there is a fair question over whether you could acquire any of these guys for less, and have a "sure thing" (though not all of these guys are nearly as good as Danny was). There are a handful of guys who would probably cost you more (probably a lot more) than the #8 pick (OG, Herb, Advija). McDaniels I think would be close, considering that MIN would probably want to get off that contract if they can considering how hamstrung they are with their cap situation.

We can likely outright sign LaRavia for less than the MLE if we wanted him (and I do). Everyone else, I think their teams likely jump at a swap for the #14 pick, let alone the #8 pick.

Makes you think about whether its best to take a gamble that your #8 or #14 will reach the level of OG, Herb, Deni... or whether you're better off just acquiring the sure thing. I don't have a strong opinion right now... could go either way. It's a fascinating thought experiment. When I have more time I'll want to dig into deeper to the current 3&D wings around the league and marinate on this a little more.

That's why I was talking about Harrison Ingram, who had some similarities to Green, including having his lack of elite explosiveness cap his projected ceiling. He was drafted in about the same spot as Green. Like if a guy were good shooter with strong metrics who also happened to be 6-8 and could leap out of the gym, that guy is probably a lotto pick even as an upperclassmen. Danny had good size for a wing, and his experience playing PF gave him more of a chance against bigger players than his frame suggested. But he was still not ideal wing size, and his age probably made his upside seem more capped than it was. That's what separates him from a guy like Mikal Bridges. Peak Danny was a better player than Bridges likely will be, but his age and size made it seem like Mikal was definitely the better bet going forward.

I don't think it was irrational for a guy like Green to not be a high pick, though in retrospect, he would have made a ton of sense as a late-first selection, and I think that's where he'd go in a modern draft. I think teams have realized that getting four cheap years of a role-player is good no matter where your team is. I don't think that was really understood, even 10 years ago, which is how the Spurs were able to clean up with so many picks in the 20s. My point is more that floor matters a lot more than a lot of fans seem to think. The Spurs can take a project when it makes sense, but they shouldn't clog their rotation with guys like that. That's how they still have Wesley and Branham on the team. I would really like for them to see the guys who can immediately play winning basketball again. Besides Wemby, obviously, the last guy who was a decent role-player from go was Tre Jones. That's a lot of picks since then with guys who are still trying to prove (or who has failed to prove) they can be key contributors to a competitive team.

[DAF86]

That's why I was talking about Harrison Ingram, who had some similarities to Green, including having his lack of elite explosiveness cap his projected ceiling. He was drafted in about the same spot as Green. Like if a guy were good shooter with strong metrics who also happened to be 6-8 and could leap out of the gym, that guy is probably a lotto pick even as an upperclassmen. Danny had good size for a wing, and his experience playing PF gave him more of a chance against bigger players than his frame suggested. But he was still not ideal wing size, and his age probably made his upside seem more capped than it was. That's what separates him from a guy like Mikal Bridges. Peak Danny was a better player than Bridges likely will be, but his age and size made it seem like Mikal was definitely the better bet going forward.

I don't think it was irrational for a guy like Green to not be a high pick, though in retrospect, he would have made a ton of sense as a late-first selection, and I think that's where he'd go in a modern draft. I think teams have realized that getting four cheap years of a role-player is good no matter where your team is. I don't think that was really understood, even 10 years ago, which is how the Spurs were able to clean up with so many picks in the 20s. My point is more that floor matters a lot more than a lot of fans seem to think. The Spurs can take a project when it makes sense, but they shouldn't clog their rotation with guys like that. That's how they still have Wesley and Branham on the team. I would really like for them to see the guys who can immediately play winning basketball again. Besides Wemby, obviously, the last guy who was a decent role-player from go was Tre Jones. That's a lot of picks since then with guys who are still trying to prove (or who has failed to prove) they can be key contributors to a competitive team.

Rasheer Fleming: 6'9", 240 lbs, (alleged) 7'5" wingspan, 39% 3pt shooter, 1.5 blks, 1.4 stls, 4.5 OBPM, 3.1 DBPM, 7.7 BPM.

rNniMOctM4k?si=82sUA1QybhM7kQhM

[DAF86]

That said, I do think the best course of action would be to trade the picks for proven players.

It's not being talked much but the "process" phase is over with the Spurs. Anything other than a playoffs birth for next season would be a huge failure and would start putting a lot of heat into the Wemby era.

Wemby's third year, the move for Fox, the fact that we need to finish above the Hawks for the swap to mean anything. The Spurs can not miss the playoffs under any circumstance next year, and I don't think keeping this core, adding a couple of rookies and a free agent would get it done. They absolutely need to add two starting forwards, a rotation guard, and a backup center.

[scottspurs]

2025 NBA Draft Board




Cooper Flagg - franchise potential
Derik Queen - all-star potential
Dylan Harper - all-star potential
VJ Edgecombe - all-star potential
Ace Bailey- all-star potential
Kasparas Jakucionis- all-star potential
Tre Johnson- all-star potential
Asa Newell- starter potential
Kon Knueppel- starter potential
Rasheer Fleming - starter potential
Khaman Maluach- starter potential
Thomas Sorber- starter potential
Nique Clifford - starter potential
Nolan Traore- starter potential
Noa Essengue- starter potential
Jase Richardson- starter potential
Jeremiah Fears - starter potential
Egor Denim- starter potential
Yaxel Lendeborg - starter potential
Walter Clayton Jr. - starter potential
Kam Jones- starter potential
Cedric Coward - starter potential
Joan Beringer- Project
Collin Murray-Boyles- role player
Liam McNeely - role player
Adou Thiero - role player
Sergio De Larrea- role player
Will Riley- role player
Isaiah Evans - role player
Sion James - role player
Bogoljub Markovic- Project
Johni Broome- role player
Danny Wolf- role player
Hansen Yang- role player
Noah Penda- role player
Koby Brea- role player
Chaz Lanier - role player
Carter Bryant- role player
Rocco Zikarsky- Project
Maxime Raynaud- role player
Ryan Kalkbrenner- role player
Vladislav Goldin- role player
Cameron Carr-developmental
Alex Condon - developmental
Miles Byrd - developmental
Boogie Fland - developmental
Labaron Philon- developmental
Tahaad Pettiford- developmental
Tobi Lawal- developmental
Darrion Williams- developmental
Milos Uzan - developmental
Tyrese Proctor - developmental
Alex Toohey- developmental
Hugo Gonzalez- draft and stash
Ben Saraf- draft and stash
John Tonje - developmental
Ryan Nembhard - developmental
Eric Dixon - developmental
Mark Sears - developmental
Kobe Johnson - developmental
Jaxson Robinson - developmental
Micah Peavy- developmental
Alex Karaban-developmental
Izan Almansa- developmental
Xavian Lee - developmental
Ian Jackson - developmental
Michael Ruzic- draft and stash
Johann Grunloh- draft and stash
Mouhamed Faye- draft and stash
Mo Diawara- draft and stash
Flory Bidunga- developmental



Board with ceiling potentials


Final Board until Measurables/Athletic testing or until I get more film on international guys


I watch a lot of college basketball so I have a better feel for those guys. I went back and watched the guys I was unsure about again. I’ve looked at all the analytics. Now I’ve watched at least some of every international prospect.


1st time I’ve ever put a board together so we will see how good or bad it turns out lol

[Chinook]

Notable that Castle's Darko D-DPM history is almost directly inversely correlated with his Darko O-DPM. Steph showed promise on the defensive end to start the season, but as soon as he started to be relied upon more on the offensive end, the D went to the crapper. I'm hoping that maybe it was just a matter of having to do too much too soon and that he can return to being closer to a positive defender as his offensive load is reduced... but we'll see. He certainly has the tools and was billed as a high end defender coming out of UCONN... but then again, Devin was also billed a high end defender and then fell off a cliff on that end as his offensive game developed.

https://i.imgur.com/IcDHHJx.png

https://i.imgur.com/qg8kccB.png

That's why having a system and a clarity of vision is so important. Vassell might be a good defender if he can lock in, yes. But he might be able to lock in more if the team had a cohesive scheme on that end. DeJounte Murray excelled defensively when he was surrounded by good defenders and part of a legit scheme. Devin flashed when the tattered remains of that competent defense was still present. We haven't really seen that since, and we should be able to see it given the personnel on the roster already. Devin's the kind of guy who can get deflections off ball rather than a stopper, so getting guards who can at least get beat in predictable situations would help a lot. But there's almost no excuse for anyone to sleep on D anymore. No ball-watching. No leaking out. Fox/Wemby/Vassell should be able to score well enough as a trio to where none of them should feel the need to save their energy on the other end.

I'd like to see a rangy forward and smart, versatile wing added to them. I imagine that's why some love Fleming so much. I am kind of hoping that Houston makes a big trade and Jabari Smith shakes free. As an expiring who hasn't quite put it together, he seems like a decent option. The question would be if he's at a place where he can accept being a super role-player rather than trying to be a star. If so, he might be a perfect fit next to Wemby with his size, shooting potential and experience going up against centers to take advantage of cross-matches. I would like to see the Spurs doing something like Sochan, Branham and 13/14 for him. I'm still partial to Knueppel for the other spot, though a guy like DiVincenzo or Hart would also fit. Then you trade a million second-rounders and cash to buy one of Brooklyn's late firsts to snag Walter Clayton to be the long-term backup PG or potential Fox replacement if Castle proves himself. Then you use 38 to grab a center prospect and then the MLE to actually address the position. Let's slot in Ryan Kalkbrenner and Santi Aldama for now.

This would be the roster:

Fox, Clayton, Wesley
Knueppel, Castle, Champangie,
Vassell, Johnson, Minix
Smith, Barnes, Ingram
Wembanyama, Aldama, Kalkbrenner

I think some people might hate that Johnson manages to survive on the team yet another season in this scenario, but unless the other team is cool with taking Johnson's extra salary. Maybe if the Spurs trade for Middleton instead of Smith, they could clear out Keldon's salary. But that's for a different scenario.

[DAF86]

2025 NBA Draft Board




Cooper Flagg - franchise potential
Derik Queen - all-star potential
Dylan Harper - all-star potential
VJ Edgecombe - all-star potential
Ace Bailey- all-star potential
Kasparas Jakucionis- all-star potential
Tre Johnson- all-star potential
Asa Newell- starter potential
Kon Knueppel- starter potential
Rasheer Fleming - starter potential
Khaman Maluach- starter potential
Thomas Sorber- starter potential
Nique Clifford - starter potential
Nolan Traore- starter potential
Noa Essengue- starter potential
Jase Richardson- starter potential
Jeremiah Fears - starter potential
Egor Denim- starter potential
Yaxel Lendeborg - starter potential
Walter Clayton Jr. - starter potential
Kam Jones- starter potential
Cedric Coward - starter potential
Joan Beringer- Project
Collin Murray-Boyles- role player
Liam McNeely - role player
Adou Thiero - role player
Sergio De Larrea- role player
Will Riley- role player
Isaiah Evans - role player
Sion James - role player
Bogoljub Markovic- Project
Johni Broome- role player
Danny Wolf- role player
Hansen Yang- role player
Noah Penda- role player
Koby Brea- role player
Chaz Lanier - role player
Carter Bryant- role player
Rocco Zikarsky- Project
Maxime Raynaud- role player
Ryan Kalkbrenner- role player
Vladislav Goldin- role player
Cameron Carr-developmental
Alex Condon - developmental
Miles Byrd - developmental
Boogie Fland - developmental
Labaron Philon- developmental
Tahaad Pettiford- developmental
Tobi Lawal- developmental
Darrion Williams- developmental
Milos Uzan - developmental
Tyrese Proctor - developmental
Alex Toohey- developmental
Hugo Gonzalez- draft and stash
Ben Saraf- draft and stash
John Tonje - developmental
Ryan Nembhard - developmental
Eric Dixon - developmental
Mark Sears - developmental
Kobe Johnson - developmental
Jaxson Robinson - developmental
Micah Peavy- developmental
Alex Karaban-developmental
Izan Almansa- developmental
Xavian Lee - developmental
Ian Jackson - developmental
Michael Ruzic- draft and stash
Johann Grunloh- draft and stash
Mouhamed Faye- draft and stash
Mo Diawara- draft and stash
Flory Bidunga- developmental



Board with ceiling potentials


Final Board until Measurables/Athletic testing or until I get more film on international guys


I watch a lot of college basketball so I have a better feel for those guys. I went back and watched the guys I was unsure about again. I’ve looked at all the analytics. Now I’ve watched at least some of every international prospect.


1st time I’ve ever put a board together so we will see how good or bad it turns out lol

You mean "ceiling" for next season only? If not, I don't see how Carter Bryant doesn't have, at least, "starter potential" somewhere down the line.

[scottspurs]

You mean "ceiling" for next season only? If not, I don't see how Carter Bryant doesn't have, at least, "starter potential" somewhere down the line.

That’s his potential nba trajectory for me. I just didn’t see enough of him on the court to believe he can be a starter in the NBA. I could be wrong because he showed flashes but something is off. He might be one of those guys that looks the part but isn’t able to put it all together mentally. I really don’t know! Seems like to big of a risk for a 1st rounder

[keithington1]

Essengue Wolf Beringer to me would be the ideal draft for the Spurs needs.

[scottspurs]

Essengue Wolf Beringer to me would be the ideal draft for the Spurs needs.

Essengue would be a little high at 8! Wolf could be had at 14, but Beringer won’t make it to the 2nd round. He is a project but has the type of athletic potential that teams will take a chance on in the 15-25 range. Would not be surprised if the Hornets picked him in the top 10 because why the F not seems to be their strategy

[scott]

Appreciate the thoughts Chinook, though I personally hate that roster construction. I have no problems with Keldon carrying on as a bench player, but IMO Vassell is not a 3, Aldama is not a 5 (and certainly has earned more than being a backup 5 to Wemby), and you're relegating the reigning ROTY to a bench player in favor of an unproven Knueppel. Who knows how it would actually all fit together, but this looks like a lineup to me that gets abused on the perimeter but has fairly decent interior defense... of course I could be completely wrong.

If you made almost of those exact moves, I'd actually situate it to more like:

Fox, Clayton, Wesley
Castle, Vassell, Knueppel
Aldama, Johnson, Champagnie
Smith, Barnes, Ingram
Wembanyama, TBD, Kalkbrenner

My disdain of Vassell is well documented, but I'd try to move off him and see if I can't bring back a useful backup big, and elevate Knueppel up the depth chart. Vassell and Keldon are completely incompatible - so either one would have to go with the other taking the reigns as 6th man/primary bench scorer. Aldama and Smith give me lots of length to go with shooting at the wings. Both Santi and Jabari grade out very high in Krishna Narsu's defensive versatility rating over on bballindex (79th percentile for Santi, 97th percentile for Jabari). When perimeter speed gets a little too much, you can switch out Vassell (if you keep him) or Champ to try and keep up a little better. While I just said Santi isn't a 5, he could fill in (along with Jabari) in small ball lineups at the 5.

So that roster has some potential, I just wouldn't deploy them the way you have here.

Santi has long been high on my list of targets... I'm hoping MEM decides to completely blow it up and we can make a run at him.

[scottspurs]

I wonder if the Spurs could trade Vassell to the Rockets if their pick ended up at 9. Like a trade up player swap. They need scoring/shooting and Udoka would be able to unlock whatever defensive potential he has left. Something like Vassell and pick 14 for Dillon Brooks and pick 9. We could have our choice of best shooter and big left at 8-9. Rockets could pick someone like Sorber at 14.

[SpursBills]

That's why having a system and a clarity of vision is so important. Vassell might be a good defender if he can lock in, yes. But he might be able to lock in more if the team had a cohesive scheme on that end. DeJounte Murray excelled defensively when he was surrounded by good defenders and part of a legit scheme. Devin flashed when the tattered remains of that competent defense was still present. We haven't really seen that since, and we should be able to see it given the personnel on the roster already. Devin's the kind of guy who can get deflections off ball rather than a stopper, so getting guards who can at least get beat in predictable situations would help a lot. But there's almost no excuse for anyone to sleep on D anymore. No ball-watching. No leaking out. Fox/Wemby/Vassell should be able to score well enough as a trio to where none of them should feel the need to save their energy on the other end.

I'd like to see a rangy forward and smart, versatile wing added to them. I imagine that's why some love Fleming so much. I am kind of hoping that Houston makes a big trade and Jabari Smith shakes free. As an expiring who hasn't quite put it together, he seems like a decent option. The question would be if he's at a place where he can accept being a super role-player rather than trying to be a star. If so, he might be a perfect fit next to Wemby with his size, shooting potential and experience going up against centers to take advantage of cross-matches. I would like to see the Spurs doing something like Sochan, Branham and 13/14 for him. I'm still partial to Knueppel for the other spot, though a guy like DiVincenzo or Hart would also fit. Then you trade a million second-rounders and cash to buy one of Brooklyn's late firsts to snag Walter Clayton to be the long-term backup PG or potential Fox replacement if Castle proves himself. Then you use 38 to grab a center prospect and then the MLE to actually address the position. Let's slot in Ryan Kalkbrenner and Santi Aldama for now.

This would be the roster:

Fox, Clayton, Wesley
Knueppel, Castle, Champangie,
Vassell, Johnson, Minix
Smith, Barnes, Ingram
Wembanyama, Aldama, Kalkbrenner

I think some people might hate that Johnson manages to survive on the team yet another season in this scenario, but unless the other team is cool with taking Johnson's extra salary. Maybe if the Spurs trade for Middleton instead of Smith, they could clear out Keldon's salary. But that's for a different scenario.

I like some of this, and dislike some of it.

Love the Walter Clayton Jr call. The best pairing to go with Castle in my opinion is this exact archetype 3 point bombing combo guard - last year it was Sheppard (who probably isn't trigger happy enough tbh) and McCain, this year Jase sort of fits but WCJ is easily the best bang for the buck relative to anticipated draft position

Like Kalkbrenner as a second round 4th big - 7'1" guys who know how to play in general are defensive positives; combine that with high level interior scoring and it's a virtual guarantee that he's going to be a decent rotation big like Luke Kornet, perfect 4th-5th big

Unfortunately I think the Knueppel/Vassell/Smith lineup probably lacks the physicality that I want without making up for it in basketball IQ. This lineup really leaves you weak on the boards to maximize static spacing for Fox. I like the FoxKon pairing a lot, but if you're playing JSJ at the 4, I'd want a guy who's a bit more physical than Vassell who can also attack a closeout. Not sure who that would be yet though. Ideally a bigger Keldon who's undergone a brain transplant.

[scottspurs]

So Spurs would draft Kon Knueppel and Asa Newell and add Dillon Brooks. Rockets who are deep at the forward position would move off Brooks in order clear the way for a better shooter and scorer in Vassell and draft a more Defensive banger Center that could do some of the things Steven Adams does. Someone like Sorber or Danny wolf or Johni Broome would fit well with Sengun. I think it could benefit both teams

[CGD]

The Jabari Smith talk is great. I’ve long been advocating for him as the perfect complement to Wemby. Good defender/spacer who doesnt need the ball to be useful (his ball handling is poor).

[scottspurs]

Fox-Wesley
Castle-Knueppel
Brooks-Keldon Johnson
Barnes-Sochan
Wemby-Newell

[scottspurs]

Jabari could work too instead of Dillon Brooks

[scottspurs]

I don’t think Vassell for Jabari Smith would match salaries though!

[BackHome]

I see no way rivals like Spurs and Rocket are going to try to help each other out to try and win Championships

[scottspurs]

If a trade made sense they would do it. It’s the only real team I see that picks ahead of the Spurs 14th pick that would want Vassell

[Chinook]

Appreciate the thoughts Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557), though I personally hate that roster construction. I have no problems with Keldon carrying on as a bench player, but IMO Vassell is not a 3, Aldama is not a 5 (and certainly has earned more than being a backup 5 to Wemby), and you're relegating the reigning ROTY to a bench player in favor of an unproven Knueppel. Who knows how it would actually all fit together, but this looks like a lineup to me that gets abused on the perimeter but has fairly decent interior defense... of course I could be completely wrong.

If you made almost of those exact moves, I'd actually situate it to more like:

Fox, Clayton, Wesley
Castle, Vassell, Knueppel
Aldama, Johnson, Champagnie
Smith, Barnes, Ingram
Wembanyama, TBD, Kalkbrenner

My disdain of Vassell is well documented, but I'd try to move off him and see if I can't bring back a useful backup big, and elevate Knueppel up the depth chart. Vassell and Keldon are completely incompatible - so either one would have to go with the other taking the reigns as 6th man/primary bench scorer. Aldama and Smith give me lots of length to go with shooting at the wings. Both Santi and Jabari grade out very high in Krishna Narsu's defensive versatility rating over on bballindex (79th percentile for Santi, 97th percentile for Jabari). When perimeter speed gets a little too much, you can switch out Vassell (if you keep him) or Champ to try and keep up a little better. While I just said Santi isn't a 5, he could fill in (along with Jabari) in small ball lineups at the 5.

So that roster has some potential, I just wouldn't deploy them the way you have here.

Santi has long been high on my list of targets... I'm hoping MEM decides to completely blow it up and we can make a run at him.

Ideally, the Spurs shouldn't have all of Johnson, Vassell and Barnes next year. That's just a lot of salary tied up in bench players. I'm not a person who believes Castle should be given special treatment if the Spurs are serious about trying to win next year. If he beats out Knueppel, great. But in terms of actually helping on the court, it wouldn't be hard for Kon to come in and do more right away than Castle did. A competitive team doesn't need someone to use a lot of possessions inefficiently and foul a lot having a featured role. That doesn't mean Vassell with his flaws should automatically get the spot either. It's a question of if it's easier to get Vassell to adjust his mentality to be more of a role-player going forward or to get Castle to shoot well and defend better. There are pluses and minuses on both sides of that discussion.

As far as who's a "SF" or not, I'm don't think the Spurs should worry about getting a big SF at all. They don't need both of their forwards to have size. They need to have two wings who can shoot and defend -- and that's in addition to having a PF like Smith. I don't have a ton of interest in Aldama playing SF and believe he's far more experienced and effective as a center. The little data we have suggests that C is a better position for him than SF anyway. His potential versatility is nice, though, because it means the Spurs can play him with Wemby for stretches, which is what you want in a backup center anyway. Ideally, the Spurs should want to have guys who are too good to be backups as their backups, especially when their starters are still developing. I don't consider that a weakness.

Ultimately, I see Fox/Castle/Forward as basically a non-starter for a perimeter unit. It's miserable spacing and poor mobility for very little upside. I can accept Fox/SG/Castle if the SG and PF are both versatile shooter AND Castle improves a lot over the summer. If Castle struggles to play SF at 6-7, it is a bigger mark against his upside in my mind than a call for the team to start him at SG. Guys like Green and Manu played the position a ton despite being smaller than Steph.

But of course, to each their own. This is only the first off-season scenario.

[rascal]

I don’t think Vassell for Jabari Smith would match salaries though!

I've seen some talk about Smith for Durant.

Doubt they would have any interest in trading Smith for Vassell.

[Chinook]

I've seen some talk about Smith for Durant.

Doubt they would have any interest in trading Smith for Vassell.

Yeah. My idea was more like Smith goes out for Booker or Durant and then the Spurs trade with the Suns for Smith. I think Smith is good ballast for a star deal, but given his lack of a breakout season and his expiring status, I don't think he'd be a centerpiece that couldn't be had by a third team.

[spurraider21]

nice to have Chinook back tbh

[Vienna]

But your opinion isn't reality, in every mock draft I've seen, he's predicted to go top 15.


where do you look?
Mann and Chau for the Ringer don't have him go 1st round.
Wasserman has him #27.
Givoney and Woo have him #30
Kevin O'Connor has him #30
Thulin has him #27
just to name some. is that enough realty for you?

yes, I know that some guys have him in the lottery, like Bryce Simon (#11), and I don't agree.
(didn't see a single mock that has him as high as #8 though)

[exstatic]

I like the idea of Castle at the SF. I’m not sure why there resistance to that idea other than the players statement from last year that he sees himself as a PG. He’s got the physical profile.

And as you say, it would give more options to address the SG via draft.

Fox
Dev (until supplanted by draftee)
Castle
Naz
Wemby

He’s a physical mismatch in the paint for guards. Not so much small forwards.

[DAF86]

where do you look?
Mann and Chau for the Ringer don't have him go 1st round.
Wasserman has him #27.
Givoney and Woo have him #30
Kevin O'Connor has him #30
Thulin has him #27
just to name some. is that enough realty for you?

yes, I know that some guys have him in the lottery, like Bryce Simon (#11), and I don't agree.
(didn't see a single mock that has him as high as #8 though)

https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/

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WJyxauq3q6U?si=VRMFOtJ_Z52EG0LP

7i_Ws6k1PYw?si=b2AFaMwzkzBkIusf

[Uriel]

2025 NBA Draft Board




Cooper Flagg - franchise potential
Derik Queen - all-star potential
Dylan Harper - all-star potential
VJ Edgecombe - all-star potential
Ace Bailey- all-star potential
Kasparas Jakucionis- all-star potential
Tre Johnson- all-star potential
Asa Newell- starter potential
Kon Knueppel- starter potential
Rasheer Fleming - starter potential
Khaman Maluach- starter potential
Thomas Sorber- starter potential
Nique Clifford - starter potential
Nolan Traore- starter potential
Noa Essengue- starter potential
Jase Richardson- starter potential
Jeremiah Fears - starter potential
Egor Denim- starter potential
Yaxel Lendeborg - starter potential
Walter Clayton Jr. - starter potential
Kam Jones- starter potential
Cedric Coward - starter potential
Joan Beringer- Project
Collin Murray-Boyles- role player
Liam McNeely - role player
Adou Thiero - role player
Sergio De Larrea- role player
Will Riley- role player
Isaiah Evans - role player
Sion James - role player
Bogoljub Markovic- Project
Johni Broome- role player
Danny Wolf- role player
Hansen Yang- role player
Noah Penda- role player
Koby Brea- role player
Chaz Lanier - role player
Carter Bryant- role player
Rocco Zikarsky- Project
Maxime Raynaud- role player
Ryan Kalkbrenner- role player
Vladislav Goldin- role player
Cameron Carr-developmental
Alex Condon - developmental
Miles Byrd - developmental
Boogie Fland - developmental
Labaron Philon- developmental
Tahaad Pettiford- developmental
Tobi Lawal- developmental
Darrion Williams- developmental
Milos Uzan - developmental
Tyrese Proctor - developmental
Alex Toohey- developmental
Hugo Gonzalez- draft and stash
Ben Saraf- draft and stash
John Tonje - developmental
Ryan Nembhard - developmental
Eric Dixon - developmental
Mark Sears - developmental
Kobe Johnson - developmental
Jaxson Robinson - developmental
Micah Peavy- developmental
Alex Karaban-developmental
Izan Almansa- developmental
Xavian Lee - developmental
Ian Jackson - developmental
Michael Ruzic- draft and stash
Johann Grunloh- draft and stash
Mouhamed Faye- draft and stash
Mo Diawara- draft and stash
Flory Bidunga- developmental



Board with ceiling potentials


Final Board until Measurables/Athletic testing or until I get more film on international guys


I watch a lot of college basketball so I have a better feel for those guys. I went back and watched the guys I was unsure about again. I’ve looked at all the analytics. Now I’ve watched at least some of every international prospect.


1st time I’ve ever put a board together so we will see how good or bad it turns out lol
You mean to say we’re picking 8th in a 7-player draft? :lol

[Manu&Duncan fan]

He’s a physical mismatch in the paint for guards. Not so much small forwards.

You nailed it! Castle needs to start.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Scottspurs is so high on Queen. I more and more agree.

[rankingtear]

He’s a physical mismatch in the paint for guards. Not so much small forwards.

I don't think it matters if the forward beside him is a stiff. They could just cross match on defense.

[DAF86]

Scottspurs is so high on Queen. I more and more agree.

I don't see the value on an undersized offensive minded center that can't shoot. Much less for us, tbh.

[TekXX]

I know the Spurs have no interest in players that can shoot the ball but i really think they should change it up this year and get someone who has the ability to shoot.

[exstatic]

I don't think it matters if the forward beside him is a stiff. They could just cross match on defense.

Let me be a little more clear. He bullies opposing team guard defenders in the paint. He won’t be able to do that with forwards defending him, or at least not as much. I don’t mind him sliding up a position or two from time to time, but if you move him full time to the 3 spot,you’re surrendering his best offensive moves.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

He’s a physical mismatch in the paint for guards. Not so much small forwards.

Exstatic, You posted at 4 am. Got up so early? or you're outside of the US?

[spurraider21]

I don't see the value on an undersized offensive minded center that can't shoot. Much less for us, tbh.
i think they're banking on wemby's perimeter skills and shooting developing to the point that offensively he'd be the 4. the problem is, vic is clearly a 5 defensively and asking queen to defend on the perimeter is likely worse than asking him to anchor. i dont see the fit tbh

[Manu&Duncan fan]

i think they're banking on wemby's perimeter skills and shooting developing to the point that offensively he'd be the 4. the problem is, vic is clearly a 5 defensively and asking queen to defend on the perimeter is likely worse than asking him to anchor. i dont see the fit tbh

Yes. Queen will be bad for Spurs. But I won't be surprised if another team pick him at #2.

[scottspurs]

Queen grades out as the best perimeter defending big in this class. He has quick nimble feet. Rare footwork. His struggles come with conditioning. He may have some untapped athleticism as he continues to lose weight. An NBA strength and conditioning program will work wonders. If he buys in. Dude seems like someone that wants to put the work in but the point remains Queen is a much better perimeter defender than he is a rim protector.


The bigger question for me is will his 3-pt shot get better and where would he fit on the Spurs since the ball will be dominated by Fox, Wemby and Castle.

I’m willing to take the gamble on his potential because there are no guarantees that the Spurs will be picking this high again. Not until 2030-31 with the swaps. Trae Young has expressed his desire to stay with the Hawks so that pick swap next year and the 2027 pick will be 12-20 range. This may be your last top 10 pick for half a decade.

[scottspurs]

Same goes for Jakucionis, Tre Johnson, Ace Bailey, Edgecombe, Harper and obviously Flagg. Those are the 7 I want the Spurs to pick if one should fall to 8. If not I’m fine with best fit.

[spurraider21]

yeah i think on pure talent you'd have to consider Queen as the BPA at 8 or 9. i just dont see him falling that far, and i dont see him as worthy if we jump into top 4

the reason im not bullish on Queen's perimter defense is that i dont care how well he defends centers in the perimeter. if he is playing next to wemby, he's going to defend NBA forwards, and not every team plays some burly 4

[exstatic]

Exstatic, You posted at 4 am. Got up so early? or you're outside of the US?

Thunderstorm woke me up at 3:30 AM

[scottspurs]

I don’t see him falling to the Spurs either. I think the guy with all-star potential that might fall is actually Kasparas Jakucionis.

Fair point College ball is much different than NBA but I’m just projecting that he will become a better athlete. The way he moves his feet says so to me.

[Ice009]

Trae Young has expressed his desire to stay with the Hawks so that pick swap next year and the 2027 pick will be 12-20 range. This may be your last top 10 pick for half a decade.

Darn, did Trae say this recently that he wants to stay with the Hawks?

[exstatic]

Darn, did Trae say this recently that he wants to stay with the Hawks?

In the Spring of 2018, after hiding in NY for most of the season, Kawhi said he wanted to stay in SA. A few months later, he was gone, forcing his way out.

A lot of what players say is for PR purposes. If he has any interest in winning, he’ll request a trade. ATL, got nearly every break, every lucky bounce or heave shot. They far outperformed their net rating, and they still wound up on the bottom half of the play in.

[scottspurs]

Darn, did Trae say this recently that he wants to stay with the Hawks?


He said today that he wants to stay with the Hawks and that he will never miss the playoffs again. Just words but I fully expect him to sign the super max. Our only hope seems to be the Hawks viewing it differently

[scott]

Ideally, the Spurs shouldn't have all of Johnson, Vassell and Barnes next year. That's just a lot of salary tied up in bench players. I'm not a person who believes Castle should be given special treatment if the Spurs are serious about trying to win next year. If he beats out Knueppel, great. But in terms of actually helping on the court, it wouldn't be hard for Kon to come in and do more right away than Castle did. A competitive team doesn't need someone to use a lot of possessions inefficiently and foul a lot having a featured role. That doesn't mean Vassell with his flaws should automatically get the spot either. It's a question of if it's easier to get Vassell to adjust his mentality to be more of a role-player going forward or to get Castle to shoot well and defend better. There are pluses and minuses on both sides of that discussion.

As far as who's a "SF" or not, I'm don't think the Spurs should worry about getting a big SF at all. They don't need both of their forwards to have size. They need to have two wings who can shoot and defend -- and that's in addition to having a PF like Smith. I don't have a ton of interest in Aldama playing SF and believe he's far more experienced and effective as a center. The little data we have suggests that C is a better position for him than SF anyway. His potential versatility is nice, though, because it means the Spurs can play him with Wemby for stretches, which is what you want in a backup center anyway. Ideally, the Spurs should want to have guys who are too good to be backups as their backups, especially when their starters are still developing. I don't consider that a weakness.

Ultimately, I see Fox/Castle/Forward as basically a non-starter for a perimeter unit. It's miserable spacing and poor mobility for very little upside. I can accept Fox/SG/Castle if the SG and PF are both versatile shooter AND Castle improves a lot over the summer. If Castle struggles to play SF at 6-7, it is a bigger mark against his upside in my mind than a call for the team to start him at SG. Guys like Green and Manu played the position a ton despite being smaller than Steph.

But of course, to each their own. This is only the first off-season scenario.

The Grand Canyon sized gap between our perspectives on this are fun... I'm glad to see you back, looking forward to more of your scenarios.

[exstatic]

He said today that he wants to stay with the Hawks and that he will never miss the playoffs again. Just words but I fully expect him to sign the super max. Our only hope seems to be the Hawks viewing it differently

They might. They are pretty much a treadmill team that doesn’t own a clean pick until 2028. That will be a MF expensive contract for a high usage player who hasn’t led his team in WS since 2022 and only twice in his career.

2025 Okungwu 7.2
2024 Capella 6.3
2023 Capella 7.2

[ginobilized]

So, Dallas has the 11th best odds for the number one pick. Will their reward for delivering the golden boy to the Lakers be a high or possibly No. 1 pick?
Let's get the conspiracy theories going gang!

[exstatic]

So, Dallas has the 11th best odds for the number one pick. Will their reward for delivering the golden boy to the Lakers be a high or possibly No. 1 pick?
Let's get the conspiracy theories going gang!
I’ll go along if you can specifically explain how the lottery could be fixed.

[John B]

So, Dallas has the 11th best odds for the number one pick. Will their reward for delivering the golden boy to the Lakers be a high or possibly No. 1 pick?
Let's get the conspiracy theories going gang!

The team I hate 2nd after the Lakers is Mavs, maybe because of 2006 and Jason Terry smug’s face, Carlisle’s whining. The only thing worse is Derek Fisher’s face. Anyway them getting Flagg would be crazy.

[RC_Drunkford]

the way I see it the Spurs should look for high level role players. Meaning that if you are trying to contend it would make sense that you run a 8-man rotation in the playoffs. Your 6th and 7th man should basically be starting caliber players with the 8th man being a good rim protecting center. We need the Derrick White's and Al Horford's of the world. Not neccessarily on those positions, but that type of versatile high level skillset.

It also depends on what the indentity of this team should be. It seems like they are trying to build a team with positional size and multiple ball handlers that plays at a fast pace and runs in transition. I'm not worried about the Fox/Castle pairing. Fox should up his percentage just by getting better looks playing with Wemby and Castle has been progressing as a shooter already. They are not snipers, but should both have a respectable 3-point shot. Our starting forwards should be very good shooters though.

The fact that we have the best rim protector ever and still weren't able to build a top 10 defense shows you how abysmal our coaching staff is. That should've been the first priority, to give this team some type of defensive identity. So with all that being said I view the roster as follows:

starters:

Fox
Castle
-
-
Wemby

bench:

-
Vassell
Champagnie
Barnes
-

if we are talking serious playoff team, this squad needs a starting SF and PF and a back up C. Back up PG not really since Castle can play those minutes at the 1 or Wesley gets spot minutes during the regular season. Sochan could be slotted in as a bench player, but he needs to have a role that he can excel in.

Whoever we draft at 8 should be a player who can be in the regular rotation right away. Players that I could see be an immediate contributor are Knueppel, Jakucionis, Maluach (I'm not expecting us to get into the top 4). If we are also using 14 Bryant and Fleming seem to be the best 3-and-D prospects who might be able to play bench minutes. I don't mind getting a player who needs some development in that range or trading the pick for a starter. 2nd round pick should absolutely be used on a back up big.

We should add one starting forward via FA/trade. John Collins remains the most realistic option to me and would be a great fit (him, Naz Reid and Aldama are the top 3). He averaged 19/8/2/1/1 and shot 40% on 3.7 attempts from 3. He can step out and shoot, can post up smaller players, is a good roll man, athletic above the rim player and good weakside shotblocker. Dude would look like an All-Star compared to that garbage we been having on our roster.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKe4MWcgep4

Alexander Walker and LaRavia might be available as wings, although it's kinda hard for me to see where we could open up some minutes with all those guards we already have. The back up C market is also very slim in the NBA right now, which is why I prefer drafting one. We need a good rim protetcor off the bench, cause once Wemby sits, teams attack the rim like it's a free lay up giveaway. Maybe Brook Lopez or Steven Adams might be veteran stop gaps for that position we could pry away.

If we are able to somehow fill these 3 positions then we are working with something and can upgrade accordingly.

[Vienna]

https://www.nbadraft.net/nba-mock-drafts/


what‘s wrong with you man? you claimed you don‘t know any mocks that have Fleming outside the top 15 and I named you a few.

I didn‘t doubt that there are mocks that rank him top 15.

btw. If you need nbadraft.net to back up your point, you should really start to overthink your opinion. the worst site in the history of draft sites. By far.

[mo7888]

the way I see it the Spurs should look for high level role players. Meaning that if you are trying to contend it would make sense that you run a 8-man rotation in the playoffs. Your 6th and 7th man should basically be starting caliber players with the 8th man being a good rim protecting center. We need the Derrick White's and Al Horford's of the world. Not neccessarily on those positions, but that type of versatile high level skillset.

It also depends on what the indentity of this team should be. It seems like they are trying to build a team with positional size and multiple ball handlers that plays at a fast pace and runs in transition. I'm not worried about the Fox/Castle pairing. Fox should up his percentage just by getting better looks playing with Wemby and Castle has been progressing as a shooter already. They are not snipers, but should both have a respectable 3-point shot. Our starting forwards should be very good shooters though.

The fact that we have the best rim protector ever and still weren't able to build a top 10 defense shows you how abysmal our coaching staff is. That should've been the first priority, to give this team some type of defensive identity. So with all that being said I view the roster as follows:

starters:

Fox
Castle
-
-
Wemby

bench:

-
Vassell
Champagnie
Barnes
-

if we are talking serious playoff team, this squad needs a starting SF and PF and a back up C. Back up PG not really since Castle can play those minutes at the 1 or Wesley gets spot minutes during the regular season. Sochan could be slotted in as a bench player, but he needs to have a role that he can excel in.

Whoever we draft at 8 should be a player who can be in the regular rotation right away. Players that I could see be an immediate contributor are Knueppel, Jakucionis, Maluach (I'm not expecting us to get into the top 4). If we are also using 14 Bryant and Fleming seem to be the best 3-and-D prospects who might be able to play bench minutes. I don't mind getting a player who needs some development in that range or trading the pick for a starter. 2nd round pick should absolutely be used on a back up big.

We should add one starting forward via FA/trade. John Collins remains the most realistic option to me and would be a great fit (him, Naz Reid and Aldama are the top 3). He averaged 19/8/2/1/1 and shot 40% on 3.7 attempts from 3. He can step out and shoot, can post up smaller players, is a good roll man, athletic above the rim player and good weakside shotblocker. Dude would look like an All-Star compared to that garbage we been having on our roster.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKe4MWcgep4

Alexander Walker and LaRavia might be available as wings, although it's kinda hard for me to see where we could open up some minutes with all those guards we already have. The back up C market is also very slim in the NBA right now, which is why I prefer drafting one. We need a good rim protetcor off the bench, cause once Wemby sits, teams attack the rim like it's a free lay up giveaway. Maybe Brook Lopez or Steven Adams might be veteran stop gaps for that position we could pry away.

If we are able to somehow fill these 3 positions then we are working with something and can upgrade accordingly.

I think Alexander Walker is a sneaky good pickup as a backup 2/3... We don't consider him enough.

[exstatic]

the way I see it the Spurs should look for high level role players. Meaning that if you are trying to contend it would make sense that you run a 8-man rotation in the playoffs. Your 6th and 7th man should basically be starting caliber players with the 8th man being a good rim protecting center. We need the Derrick White's and Al Horford's of the world. Not neccessarily on those positions, but that type of versatile high level skillset.

It also depends on what the indentity of this team should be. It seems like they are trying to build a team with positional size and multiple ball handlers that plays at a fast pace and runs in transition. I'm not worried about the Fox/Castle pairing. Fox should up his percentage just by getting better looks playing with Wemby and Castle has been progressing as a shooter already. They are not snipers, but should both have a respectable 3-point shot. Our starting forwards should be very good shooters though.

The fact that we have the best rim protector ever and still weren't able to build a top 10 defense shows you how abysmal our coaching staff is. That should've been the first priority, to give this team some type of defensive identity. So with all that being said I view the roster as follows:

starters:

Fox
Castle
-
-
Wemby

bench:

-
Vassell
Champagnie
Barnes
-

if we are talking serious playoff team, this squad needs a starting SF and PF and a back up C. Back up PG not really since Castle can play those minutes at the 1 or Wesley gets spot minutes during the regular season. Sochan could be slotted in as a bench player, but he needs to have a role that he can excel in.

Whoever we draft at 8 should be a player who can be in the regular rotation right away. Players that I could see be an immediate contributor are Knueppel, Jakucionis, Maluach (I'm not expecting us to get into the top 4). If we are also using 14 Bryant and Fleming seem to be the best 3-and-D prospects who might be able to play bench minutes. I don't mind getting a player who needs some development in that range or trading the pick for a starter. 2nd round pick should absolutely be used on a back up big.

We should add one starting forward via FA/trade. John Collins remains the most realistic option to me and would be a great fit (him, Naz Reid and Aldama are the top 3). He averaged 19/8/2/1/1 and shot 40% on 3.7 attempts from 3. He can step out and shoot, can post up smaller players, is a good roll man, athletic above the rim player and good weakside shotblocker. Dude would look like an All-Star compared to that garbage we been having on our roster.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKe4MWcgep4

Alexander Walker and LaRavia might be available as wings, although it's kinda hard for me to see where we could open up some minutes with all those guards we already have. The back up C market is also very slim in the NBA right now, which is why I prefer drafting one. We need a good rim protetcor off the bench, cause once Wemby sits, teams attack the rim like it's a free lay up giveaway. Maybe Brook Lopez or Steven Adams might be veteran stop gaps for that position we could pry away.

If we are able to somehow fill these 3 positions then we are working with something and can upgrade accordingly.

John Collins is a great option if he opts out. Not at all interested in paying the Ainge premium in a trade.

A backup big option might be Clint Capella. He’s a UFA this summer, and has a career double double average, including 7 straight years previous to this season. He’s a good shot blocker and led the NBA in overall rebounding in 2031, and twice in offensive boards. His career ORB%/DRB%/TRB% splits are 15.2/28.8/22.0. He’s a fucking rebounding machine.

[RC_Drunkford]

John Collins is a great option if he opts out. Not at all interested in paying the Ainge premium in a trade.

A backup big option might be Clint Capella. He’s a UFA this summer, and has a career double double average, including 7 straight years previous to this season. He’s a good shot blocker and led the NBA in overall rebounding in 2031, and twice in offensive boards. His career ORB%/DRB%/TRB% splits are 15.2/28.8/22.0. He’s a fucking rebounding machine.

Capela is not a bad option, although I think his pick & roll defense fell off a cliff in ATL. Then again he played with Trae Young, so that might be the main reason why. I think we could get Collins for Keldon, Branham and 14.

[BacktoBasics]

John Collins is a great option if he opts out. Not at all interested in paying the Ainge premium in a trade.

A backup big option might be Clint Capella. He’s a UFA this summer, and has a career double double average, including 7 straight years previous to this season. He’s a good shot blocker and led the NBA in overall rebounding in 2031, and twice in offensive boards. His career ORB%/DRB%/TRB% splits are 15.2/28.8/22.0. He’s a fucking rebounding machine.

Capella would definitely bring the rebounding we need and he’s a decent lob threat which would work nicely with players like castle.

[exstatic]

Capela is not a bad option, although I think his pick & roll defense fell off a cliff in ATL. Then again he played with Trae Young, so that might be the main reason why. I think we could get Collins for Keldon, Branham and 14.

Yeah, playing with Trae, he’d 100% have to be in drop coverage. That would make most bigs look bad.

[TD 21]

Back up PG not really since Castle can play those minutes at the 1 or Wesley gets spot minutes during the regular season. Sochan could be slotted in as a bench player, but he needs to have a role that he can excel in.

Whoever we draft at 8 should be a player who can be in the regular rotation right away. Players that I could see be an immediate contributor are Knueppel, Jakucionis, Maluach (I'm not expecting us to get into the top 4).[/video]

Maybe Brook Lopez or Steven Adams might be veteran stop gaps for that position we could pry away.

I initially thought not staggering Fox-Paul was to give Castle primary ball handling reps, but Wesley over Branham gave me pause. Was is just because they needed another guard when Fox was shut down and are done with Branham or because they don't see Castle as a primary creator in the non Fox minutes?

If it's the latter, then obviously it means continuing to play smallish on the perimeter with Vassell playing more SF than SG and creates a need for a backup creator since Wesley is a replacement player.

Which brings me to Jakucionis. Could serve as Fox's understudy/apprentice throughout his initial contract and if all all goes well, eventually give them a succession plan so they don't feel obligated to extend the latter into his late-post prime years. Good theoretical fit with Castle too.

I don't see Lopez accepting a backup position, especially when teams like the Warriors/Lakers have a gaping hole in the middle.

[exstatic]

I initially thought not staggering Fox-Paul was to give Castle primary ball handling reps, but Wesley over Branham gave me pause. Was is just because they needed another guard when Fox was shut down and are done with Branham or because they don't see Castle as a primary creator in the non Fox minutes?

If it's the latter, then obviously it means continuing to play smallish on the perimeter with Vassell playing more SF than SG and creates a need for a backup creator since Wesley is a replacement player.

Which brings me to Jakucionis. Could serve as Fox's understudy/apprentice throughout his initial contract and if all all goes well, eventually give them a succession plan so they don't feel obligated to extend the latter into his late-post prime years. Good theoretical fit with Castle too.

I don't see Lopez accepting a backup position, especially when teams like the Warriors/Lakers have a gaping hole in the middle.

Wesley is a good ball handler, but his vision is lacking. He’s not a PG, and was just soaking up some of Fox’s and the departed Tre’s minutes.

[ginobilized]

I’ll go along if you can specifically explain how the lottery could be fixed.

I thought that was your job, I just come up with half-baked theories on the lunatic fringe.

[BackHome]

Nice post RC - Pretty much agree with you and definitely agree with you on the defense side of lack of coaching/execution. For me picking the right coach is they key to how far this team will be able to go in the playoffs and is going to be one of the most important decisions this organization has made in the last 20+ years.

For me going into first pick I would take Kon or Tre - For second first round pick I am changing up and kinda going back to Wolf as he is just a smart crafty player who can be used in a lot of ways. My other thought is that we might be going with another French player either Noa or Traore as they have upside but will need a year or two which I am fine with.

Also, like your thoughts of getting a seasoned PF as a starter and to pick up a big in the second round.

[TD 21]

I thought that was your job, I just come up with half-baked theories on the lunatic fringe.

I thought that was my job?

[DAF86]

what‘s wrong with you man? you claimed you don‘t know any mocks that have Fleming outside the top 15 and I named you a few.

I didn‘t doubt that there are mocks that rank him top 15.

btw. If you need nbadraft.net to back up your point, you should really start to overthink your opinion. the worst site in the history of draft sites. By far.

You literally asked:


where do you look?

I answer you and you get your panties in a bunch. :lol

[Biggems]

He said today that he wants to stay with the Hawks and that he will never miss the playoffs again. Just words but I fully expect him to sign the super max. Our only hope seems to be the Hawks viewing it differently

one advantage to0 his comment is the Hawks are in the Eastern Conference. On the whole, the conference is a giant turd. So being in the East, the chances of his comment being true is so much better than if his team were in the West.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

How much would Capela cost? Any rough ideas? Will his signing prevent signing of Naz Reid or John Collions?

[scott]

Our lack of capspace will prevent us from signing Naz Reid.

Only way to get him will be a S&T, so signing somehow else won't impact that.

John Collins hasn't opted in or our of his option with UTA yet. He probably won't be a FA.

[Chinook]

The Spurs have long wanted two PGs on the floor at the same time. We saw that all the way back in 2003 with Parker and Kidd. I think Castle's size was appealing to him not because they wanted to play a 6-7 PG with a 6-9 SG, a 6-11 SF, a 7-foot PF and a 7-3 C, but because they wanted to play a 6-7 PG who could play with a second PG without having to compromise the defense in the way that playing two guards under 6-4 often does.

I don't think the Spurs see Fox and Castle as the entire main PG rotation going forward because simply put it's not enough PG play for their liking. Even not going into whether they SHOULD trust Castle to be the sole PG on the court at times if they're seriously trying to win, we're talking about a team that had no issue playing Paul with Jones or Wesley. It would be weird if the team didn't try to find at least one quality player to add to that depth chart, be it a cheap vet or a mid-draft pick.

A lot of people have been getting upset about the idea of trading Castle. I find that sort of odd given how many also believe the Spurs should be trying to bring in another name. If you think they should slow-play this and see what they have with Fox and Wemby for a full summer and some modest changes to the roster, that's fine. That's basically where I'm at. But if you're talking about adding a third star, cleaving to Steph doesn't make a ton of sense. They would definitely not have the touches to develop Castle as a star, and they may not have the leeway to let Castle figure things out as a role-player. If the team kept him and leveraged the unprotected picks needed to get a star without him, they could be forced into a situation where they can't play him high in the rotation. A guy like Knueppel may just be a better fit. So if folks want to hop back on Markkanen or Booker or Giannis or Sabonis or JJJ, that's where it's at.

The only star who could come in and meaningfully open a window for the Spurs but not either cost Castle or limit Castle's long-term path with the Spurs would be Durant. The Spurs might be able to get Durant with Vassell, Johnson/Barnes and some protected picks/lesser projects. His age would make it to where Castle could take over in a couple of years when KD aged out. I still don't think Steph could start for that team without improved shooting and a commitment to consistently good defense. Let's say Vassell, Johnson, Sochan and some future protected picks get it done.

Then in the draft, go Queen at 8, Richardson at 13/14 and Isaiah Evans at 38. In free agency, through a modest deal at Jake LaRavia and bring back Biyombo and promote one of Ingram/Minix. That leaves 14 roster spots taken as follows:

Fox, Richardson, Wesley
Champagnie, Castle, Branham,
Barnes, _____, Evans
Durant, LaRavia, Ingram
Wembayama, Queen, Biyombo

I'd REALLY want the Spurs to find a vet wing who could fill in that last rotation spot, be it a SF to back up Barnes or a SG to start in place of Champagnie, but there's a dearth of competent wings in the NBA right now. There's no one worth the MLE, even as a trade candidate.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyX5nKWpG94

Rasheer Fleming interview. Such a humble, relaxed, quiet personality. In contrast to his playing on the court - always fire in his eyes.

He behaves like a spur.

Wow, he is so good-looking. Lion's big eyes, nose and mouth!

[SpursBills]

The Spurs have long wanted two PGs on the floor at the same time. We saw that all the way back in 2003 with Parker and Kidd. I think Castle's size was appealing to him not because they wanted to play a 6-7 PG with a 6-9 SG, a 6-11 SF, a 7-foot PF and a 7-3 C, but because they wanted to play a 6-7 PG who could play with a second PG without having to compromise the defense in the way that playing two guards under 6-4 often does.

I don't think the Spurs see Fox and Castle as the entire main PG rotation going forward because simply put it's not enough PG play for their liking. Even not going into whether they SHOULD trust Castle to be the sole PG on the court at times if they're seriously trying to win, we're talking about a team that had no issue playing Paul with Jones or Wesley. It would be weird if the team didn't try to find at least one quality player to add to that depth chart, be it a cheap vet or a mid-draft pick.

A lot of people have been getting upset about the idea of trading Castle. I find that sort of odd given how many also believe the Spurs should be trying to bring in another name. If you think they should slow-play this and see what they have with Fox and Wemby for a full summer and some modest changes to the roster, that's fine. That's basically where I'm at. But if you're talking about adding a third star, cleaving to Steph doesn't make a ton of sense. They would definitely not have the touches to develop Castle as a star, and they may not have the leeway to let Castle figure things out as a role-player. If the team kept him and leveraged the unprotected picks needed to get a star without him, they could be forced into a situation where they can't play him high in the rotation. A guy like Knueppel may just be a better fit. So if folks want to hop back on Markkanen or Booker or Giannis or Sabonis or JJJ, that's where it's at.

The only star who could come in and meaningfully open a window for the Spurs but not either cost Castle or limit Castle's long-term path with the Spurs would be Durant. The Spurs might be able to get Durant with Vassell, Johnson/Barnes and some protected picks/lesser projects. His age would make it to where Castle could take over in a couple of years when KD aged out. I still don't think Steph could start for that team without improved shooting and a commitment to consistently good defense. Let's say Vassell, Johnson, Sochan and some future protected picks get it done.

Then in the draft, go Queen at 8, Richardson at 13/14 and Isaiah Evans at 38. In free agency, through a modest deal at Jake LaRavia and bring back Biyombo and promote one of Ingram/Minix. That leaves 14 roster spots taken as follows:

Fox, Richardson, Wesley
Champagnie, Castle, Branham,
Barnes, _____, Evans
Durant, LaRavia, Ingram
Wembayama, Queen, Biyombo

I'd REALLY want the Spurs to find a vet wing who could fill in that last rotation spot, be it a SF to back up Barnes or a SG to start in place of Champagnie, but there's a dearth of competent wings in the NBA right now. There's no one worth the MLE, even as a trade candidate.

In this scenario, I’d want Nickeil Alexander walker for the mid level to slot in nicely as the starting 2

[scott]

I think your general assessment of how adding another star would limit Castle is correct, Chinook, and as a result I think the logical conclusion is that the Spurs won't be looking to add another star. This also aligns with the overall frugality of this team.

I too see some people wanting to add various stars (often without giving up anything of value), but not only do I find these unlikely... a lot of them don't really make a ton of basketball sense to me either.

I expect changes to the roster this summer to be incremental and largely minor. Remove CP3, add two rookies and some MLE-level players is likely all we are looking at. I don't think The Power of Friendship is going anywhere either.

[The Truth #6]

The Spurs already think we have three stars, so yeah, there's no way they're looking to trade Castle at all. Historically the Spurs just look to add undervalued affordable role players. For once I actually agree with that approach and hopefully they don't change course.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Chinook, Welcome back! You add more fun to our board.

One thing I like you is that you're not shy expressing your wrong ideas.

No reasonable person will even thinking of trade castle. This idea is like trading Manu Ginobili after his rookie year.

Castle is this good. He will be an all star. If you don't see this happening, then it's your own problem.

[Chinook]

I'm okay with the Spurs developing for a year, but under no circumstances should they think they ALREADY have three stars. I don't think folks appreciate how bad this year's ROY race was. You have to go back to 2014 and 2015 to find ROY winners who had years like Castle had. His stats are much more similar to 2014 MCW than they are to the Young stars (or "stars") who've won it recently. I'm not saying to give up on Castle. If the team is okay with being a middling team that might end up in the lottery again next year, they can give Steph the run to see if he can take some steps. But if they are trying to win, they'd be foolish for thinking Castle can be penciled in as the third piece. He's very, very far away from that right now.

[Chinook]

Chinook, Welcome back! You add more fun to our board.

One thing I like you is that you're not shy expressing your wrong ideas.

No reasonable person will even thinking of trade castle. This idea is like trading Manu Ginobili after his rookie year.

Castle is this good. He will be an all star. If you don't see this happening, then it's your own problem.

I'm just being objective about Castle. I'm not trying to predict the future. I am saying that the present isn't really what a lot of posters seem to think it was.

[CGD]

The Spurs already think we have three stars, so yeah, there's no way they're looking to trade Castle at all. Historically the Spurs just look to add undervalued affordable role players. For once I actually agree with that approach and hopefully they don't change course.

I think this is right. They’re probably super eager to get the Fox-Wemby pairing going, and as far as I’m concerned we’ve already made our “summer” trade. And if Castle hits as the 3rd guy, great, if not he effectively replaces Keldon until Castle himself is moved.

Now it’s about a) cycling in some vets, and b) drafting players who can eventually replace/push our current “good” role players (Dev, Keldon, Sochan). e.g., Tre Johnson as Dev 2.0 etc.

Up or out as they say in the consulting world.

[Knoxxx]

Castle - Fox - Wemby needs to be the big 3 plan.

From there we need front court help the most. But we need size, rim protection, rebounding, AND shooting.

Thats why many of us push for Fleming at 14 since he checks about all of those boxes. At 8, it’s more like BPA likely a wing, must be able to shoot. I’m not high on Maluach, Queen is a maybe, not sold on Newell.

If we did take a big at 8, then it’s more like Demin or McNeeley at 14. I don’t like that approach as much as the above.

The other option I see in the draft is take a couple wings, and at least one with with legitimate SF size at 8 and 14, then aim for a backup big, PF/C or true C at 38.

if we took a big at 8 or 14 I noticed Chaz Lanier has also slotted to us at 38 on Tankathon which could give us another wing option with strong 3 ball % shooting.

[mo7888]

I like Castle and I'm not really looking to trade him, but I do think he's a bad fit with Fox (as we're currently constructed..and I realize that can change). I think eventually Fox or Castle gets moved. I'm fine keeping both for now and finding another shooter at the1-2 position to fill out a back court rotation. I'd be looking at Knueppel or Jackucionis at #8, maybe even Jase Richardson, though I think that's a little high for him.

[Knoxxx]

I think this is right. They’re probably super eager to get the Fox-Wemby pairing going, and as far as I’m concerned we’ve already made our “summer” trade. And if Castle hits as the 3rd guy, great, if not he effectively replaces Keldon until Castle himself is moved.

Now it’s about a) cycling in some vets, and b) drafting players who can eventually replace/push our current “good” role players (Dev, Keldon, Sochan). e.g., Tre Johnson as Dev 2.0 etc.

Up or out as they say in the consulting world.

I would agree that while front court help is the most glaring need, if BPA at 8 is a SG - or we move into top 4 - we can go that route since we really only like Castle and Fox a lot amongst our guards and need to start thinking about whether to continue on with Vassell as our 3rd guard or make upgrading that spot a priority.

[Knoxxx]

I like Castle and I'm not really looking to trade him, but I do think he's a bad fit with Fox (as we're currently constructed..and I realize that can change). I think eventually Fox or Castle gets moved. I'm fine keeping both for now and finding another shooter at the1-2 position to fill out a back court rotation. I'd be looking at Knueppel or Jackucionis at #8, maybe even Jase Richardson, though I think that's a little high for him.

A PG/SG is an option and I don’t hate Richardson, but if our top 3 guards were Fox - Richardson - Castle that doesn’t check the box on sufficient guard size. Yet having a couple small guards worked out for CLE. That also assumes that Vassell was not around as a guard option such as due to being traded. Of course if Vassell is our 4th guard that’s a pricey option but at least he can play some SF too.

As Yoda said the future is cloudy, but at least we have our core for now to build around.

[Dejounte]

The five players who I think will KILL it in the Spurs workouts:

Jase Richardson
Egor Demin
Derik Queen
Ben Saraf
VJ Edgecombe

I’m gonna bet at least one of the Spurs picks will be coming from this group, not confident yet to say that both picks will come from these five but I’m close to there.

[mo7888]

The five players who I think will KILL it in the Spurs workouts:

Jase Richardson
Egor Demin
Derik Queen
Ben Saraf
VJ Edgecombe

I’m gonna bet at least one of the Spurs picks will be coming from this group, not confident yet to say that both picks will come from these five but I’m close to there.

Could you expound a little more on what you see in Demin and how you think his shooting will project? I have him #12 currently.

[mo7888]

A PG/SG is an option and I don’t hate Richardson, but if our top 3 guards were Fox - Richardson - Castle that doesn’t check the box on sufficient guard size. Yet having a couple small guards worked out for CLE. That also assumes that Vassell was not around as a guard option such as due to being traded. Of course if Vassell is our 4th guard that’s a pricey option but at least he can play some SF too.

As Yoda said the future is cloudy, but at least we have our core for now to build around.

Richardson should fit well with Castle, but it's a small backcourt when paired with Fox. I still think it can work for the shorter-term while we figure out who's part of the core.

[Dejounte]

Could you expound a little more on what you see in Demin and how you think his shooting will project? I have him #12 currently.

I favor players who have a lot more 1 on 1 skill in their bag and I think Egor is one of those guys (like Castle) who sacrificed the opportunity to show this skill and instead focused on playing a specific role for his college team. I’m looking at more of Egor’s older tape where he let himself takeover more than trying to be part of the team.

On the opposite side of this spectrum is Queen who showed nothing but 1 on 1 skill during his college tenure. (Highly impressive for a guy his size but can be seen as bad at the same time)

[mo7888]

I favor players who have a lot more 1 on 1 skill in their bag and I think Egor is one of those guys (like Castle) who sacrificed not showing much of that type of skill for the team. I’m looking at more of Egor’s older tape where he let himself takeover more than trying to be part of the team.

On the opposite side of this spectrum is Queen who showed nothing but 1 on 1 skill during his college tenure. (Highly impressive for a guy his size but can be seen as bad at the same time)

I raye Demin above Queen. Questions about his motor and D bother me quite a bit. I also worry about Demins D, lateral movement, and shooting. That said, if he could shoot he'd be top 2 or 3 in this draft. I'd risk it though after about #10. He's got all of the other offensive tools plus positional size. I think he's got the best court vision in this draft, although Jackucionis is a little better in the PnR. I also don't think Demin's shot is broken. I think he can become a passable shooter. I just am uncomfortable taking a guy who can't shoot at #8. If he's there at #14 sign me up.

[Dejounte]

People are sleeping on Ben Saraf, tbh. Watching Kawhi slug his way on offense and still be super effective because he’s methodical, navigating through screens, securing the ball with ease, and just smartly reacting to what the defense gives him… Saraf has that advanced level feel, too.

[Dejounte]

Speak of the devil, HH just uploaded the Saraf video:


https://youtu.be/jAk8O523veo?feature=shared

i’ve only begun the video obviously but peep the moves at 1:30 (Castle-like move) and 1:52 (doesn’t matter if it went or not). Just a high display of skill and feel from this kid.

Saraf is like the on ball version of Kon (which is why I think Saraf will wow teams more than Kon when they bring him in). People might have feelings over what the team may need or not need, but getting either of these two would be a huge plus for the team.

[Knoxxx]

The plus side of having so many roster needs is we can target any position, but we still need to probably have 2 of our 3 draftees be frontcourt players if we keep all 3 picks. One player I liked quite a bit at 32 last draft was Filipowski. Someone like that at 38 could be a nice value.

I’m making that statement about 2 frontcourt draftees in a vacuum - i.e. not trying to account for any trade or free agent acquisitions. Pick up a Naz Reid and I think we can reduce to one front court draftee, BUT we still need more help at SF and backup C.

[CGD]

Speak of the devil, HH just uploaded the Saraf video:


https://youtu.be/jAk8O523veo?feature=shared

i’ve only begun the video obviously but peep the moves at 1:30 (Castle-like move) and 1:52 (doesn’t matter if it went or not). Just a high display of skill and feel from this kid.

Saraf is like the on ball version of Kon (which is why I think Saraf will wow teams more than Kon when they bring him in). People might have feelings over what the team may need or not need, but getting either of these two would be a huge plus for the team.

Jeesh, I think he shot leas than 20% for that whole video.

I also don’t know about that German league… talent coming from there will have that Killian Hayes stank on them, until one of them proves otherwise

[Dejounte]

Jeesh, I think he shot leas than 20% for that whole video.

I also don’t know about that German league… talent coming from there will have that Killian Hayes stank on them, until one of them proves otherwise

Video has been out for one hour and the video is four hours long.

but also if you’re watching the videos and counting makes and misses you’re not doing a good job evaluating the player, tbh. You can look up the stats for that and formulate your opinion from there. That’s clearly not what these videos are for smh. Anyone here actually serious about this

[rascal]

Jeesh, I think he shot leas than 20% for that whole video.

I also don’t know about that German league… talent coming from there will have that Killian Hayes stank on them, until one of them proves otherwise

This guy looks horrible. McNeeley is much better

[scottspurs]

I have watched some of Saraf. Need to watch more. Very crafty and sneaky athletic but the dude is allergic to finishing at the rim! Misses so many layups. Gets abused by physical defenders. Falls down a lot. Needs to add some lower body strength. 3-pt shot needs work he pushes it up there sometimes and other times it’s decent. Could be another lower body strength issue.

[scottspurs]

Dejounte makes a good point about the Spurs liking players that do well in workouts. Another guy I think will do well in workouts is Kasparas Jakucionis. He plays at a great pace and never gets sped up by defenders. In a three on three workout situation he will really take over. Even one on one he has a high skill level and high IQ. One of the reasons teams do 3 on 3 in workouts is because it shows a players ability to operate with space. Something you may not see on film at the college level because of all the zone defenses and pressing. Kasparas will thrive with the spacing

[RC_Drunkford]

I initially thought not staggering Fox-Paul was to give Castle primary ball handling reps, but Wesley over Branham gave me pause. Was is just because they needed another guard when Fox was shut down and are done with Branham or because they don't see Castle as a primary creator in the non Fox minutes?

If it's the latter, then obviously it means continuing to play smallish on the perimeter with Vassell playing more SF than SG and creates a need for a backup creator since Wesley is a replacement player.

Which brings me to Jakucionis. Could serve as Fox's understudy/apprentice throughout his initial contract and if all all goes well, eventually give them a succession plan so they don't feel obligated to extend the latter into his late-post prime years. Good theoretical fit with Castle too.

I don't see Lopez accepting a backup position, especially when teams like the Warriors/Lakers have a gaping hole in the middle.

agree with the Jakucionis take, which is why I said in the draft thread we should draft him if he's there at 8. He would basically cement our 3 guard rotation and give us a replacement option when Fox' next deal runs out. I also don't think Lopez would accept being a back up but there were rumors of us trying to sign him the year we drafted Wemby, so maybe the Spurs envision him being a starter with Victor and then staggering them. Not sure if it's optimal, but they might attempt it.

[scottspurs]

Nique Clifford is also going to abuse some people in workouts because he is a grown man compared to these other prospects. He will physically abuse them. He is a good all around player with a good physique

[spurraider21]

spurs dont need "1 on 1 bag" type players tbh

wemby is pretty ball dominant. and in the backcourt, fox is an effective on-ball player who also plays a lot of minutes. thats our 1-2 punch for the foreseeable future. castle had a very good rookie campaign but saying he's part of a 3 man core is hyperbolic at this stage. early returns and glimpes are one thing. being a core franchise piece is something else.

we need guys that can fit around wemby/fox. i dont see how on-ball players without good outside shots are what you'd be looking for. and if we wanted to have one player we are trying to develop in that respect, its already Castle. adding another one like Saraf/Queen doesnt seem right. if Queen falls to us at 8/9 and theres demand for him, i'd explore a trade back.

with the hawks pick, id rather have somebody like essengue over saraf by quite a bit, and im not even that high on Essengue (another buttershot), but at least knows how to play off-ball as a role player

demin also feels like a poor fit since his early season shooting seems to have been a mirage. these are talented players, just not the fit we are looking for.

Kon/Bryant/Fleming/McNeeley... these are the types. if we wanted high caliber reserves, i'd look at richardson/sorber

[SpursGenius]

Dejounte makes a good point about the Spurs liking players that do well in workouts. Another guy I think will do well in workouts is Kasparas Jakucionis. He plays at a great pace and never gets sped up by defenders. In a three on three workout situation he will really take over. Even one on one he has a high skill level and high IQ. One of the reasons teams do 3 on 3 in workouts is because it shows a players ability to operate with space. Something you may not see on film at the college level because of all the zone defenses and pressing. Kasparas will thrive with the spacing
bad athlete who cant shoot, ill pass

[scottspurs]

bad athlete who cant shoot, ill pass

You haven’t watched him if you think he is a bad athlete lol! And even if he was there is more to basketball than athleticism. His shot looks better than most in this class. Good form. People need to stop looking at percentages and look at the form. Even then he shot 31% not bad for a college freshman. He has some Luka to his game. Shows some real playmaking skills. You have to project what young prospects can be. If you want the best athletes why not bring Lonnie Walker back. The best “shooter”? I’m sure you can get Reed Sheppard for cheap! He had a great shooting percentage in college. lol I’m convinced some here don’t watch any of these guys and just take some bad take and run with it.

[Vienna]

I answer you and you get your panties in a bunch. :lol

right. sorry, my bad.
it was more of a rhetorical question on my side and you answerd it straight, I should have noticed that.

[CGD]

Video has been out for one hour and the video is four hours long.

but also if you’re watching the videos and counting makes and misses you’re not doing a good job evaluating the player, tbh. You can look up the stats for that and formulate your opinion from there. That’s clearly not what these videos are for smh. Anyone here actually serious about this

I guess? I mean Blake Welsey blows by his player regularly too, but in a far superior league and he still clanks/smokes easy bunnies at the rim too. He's been in the league 3 years now.

[CGD]

Dejounte makes a good point about the Spurs liking players that do well in workouts. Another guy I think will do well in workouts is Kasparas Jakucionis. He plays at a great pace and never gets sped up by defenders. In a three on three workout situation he will really take over. Even one on one he has a high skill level and high IQ. One of the reasons teams do 3 on 3 in workouts is because it shows a players ability to operate with space. Something you may not see on film at the college level because of all the zone defenses and pressing. Kasparas will thrive with the spacing

If there, I like Kasparas at 8. He not only helps fill the shooting need, but also has the secondary playmaking potentially that the Spurs have been missing (and hoping Dev would provide).

[Dejounte]

I guess? I mean Blake Welsey blows by his player regularly too, but in a far superior league and he still clanks/smokes easy bunnies at the rim too. He's been in the league 3 years now.

We will agree to disagree. All this talk about superior leagues is nonsense to me when you have two players from the OTE league in Amen and Ausar looking like they have the brightest futures and several players from the Ignite team that are currently playing important roles for their teams when many counted them out and didn’t think they’d last in the league.

[rascal]

We will agree to disagree. All this talk about superior leagues is nonsense to me when you have two players from the OTE league in Amen and Ausar looking like they have the brightest futures and several players from the Ignite team that are currently playing important roles for their teams when many counted them out and didn’t think they’d last in the league.

Those guys are "athletic" something you don't value

[exstatic]

We will agree to disagree. All this talk about superior leagues is nonsense to me when you have two players from the OTE league in Amen and Ausar looking like they have the brightest futures and several players from the Ignite team that are currently playing important roles for their teams when many counted them out and didn’t think they’d last in the league.

The Thompsons are A+++ level athletes. Unless your prospect is in that category, level of competition absolutely matters.

[Dejounte]

The Thompsons are A+++ level athletes. Unless your prospect is in that category, level of competition absolutely matters.

them being athletic didn’t seem be that important to you before they were drafted:


His floor is scary low, like out of the league in 2-3 years if he was just beating up on 15 YOs.



The twins are why I’m interested in trading back if we don’t get Wemby. Two fool GMs are going to take them, leaving players of higher value at 5-7.

[exstatic]

them being athletic didn’t seem be that important to you before they were drafted:

Underestimated it. MOST players who are maybe a B+ or an A wouldn’t have made it. Apparently, the grapevine had Amen on the Spurs radar.

[scottspurs]

The Thompson Twins are a perfect example as to why you should project what a player can be not what they are. Amen showed he could be a creator and Ausar’s shot was less broken. Both showed tremendous defensive versatility though. The best athletes to come into the league since MJ. I’ve seen Amen in person alot and he is bigger than his listed 6’7 200 lbs.

That’s why I’m very interested in the athletic testing for Joan Beringer. Dude moves like a gazelle listed at 6’10. Former soccer goalie and it shows. Has elite reflexes at the rim. Now if you can just teach him basketball he could be a very versatile on defense. The Thompson twins are 11 out of 10 athletes and on film Beringer looks like 10 out of 10 but he is also running against grown men. If his athletic testing is closer to the Twins I would just say screw it and take him at 14.

[Mr. Body]

It's totally fair to say that Amen and Ausar were playing against absolutely awful competition. They were. It turned out to not be a big issue.

It's still not great to claim that any great athlete can become a good basketball player. We see many many times that this doesn't happen.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I agree about Beringer. Some team is going to be highly impressed by his tools and athleticism and overdraft him. Might even be Spurs, although I don’t think he fits their mould. Spurs like players who can play different positions, have plus size and who project to become the coveted dribble/pass/shoot archetype, even if they’re not quite that at the time of the draft, which can obviously lead to mistakes easily.

Perhaps with Wemby and Fox they’ll change and look more for fit and safer projects but we’ll see.

[Mr. Body]

Isn't Beringer looking a lot like this year's Saluan?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Isn't Beringer looking a lot like this year's Saluan?

Indeed.

But even better tools and even more raw.

[itzsoweezee]

It's totally fair to say that Amen and Ausar were playing against absolutely awful competition. They were. It turned out to not be a big issue.

It's still not great to claim that any great athlete can become a good basketball player. We see many many times that this doesn't happen.

Yes. People assume that because the Thompsons can’t shoot that they are unskilled. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Those two were legit basketball players with elite athleticism.

[The Truth #6]

Amen also had a great handle, solid passing instincts, and decent to good bbiq...paired with elite athleticism.

[scottspurs]

Indeed.

But even better tools and even more raw.

Spot on! Whoever drafts him probably can’t expect much until year 2-3

[vy65]

The Spurs have long wanted two PGs on the floor at the same time. We saw that all the way back in 2003 with Parker and Kidd. I think Castle's size was appealing to him not because they wanted to play a 6-7 PG with a 6-9 SG, a 6-11 SF, a 7-foot PF and a 7-3 C, but because they wanted to play a 6-7 PG who could play with a second PG without having to compromise the defense in the way that playing two guards under 6-4 often does.

I don't think the Spurs see Fox and Castle as the entire main PG rotation going forward because simply put it's not enough PG play for their liking. Even not going into whether they SHOULD trust Castle to be the sole PG on the court at times if they're seriously trying to win, we're talking about a team that had no issue playing Paul with Jones or Wesley. It would be weird if the team didn't try to find at least one quality player to add to that depth chart, be it a cheap vet or a mid-draft pick.

A lot of people have been getting upset about the idea of trading Castle. I find that sort of odd given how many also believe the Spurs should be trying to bring in another name. If you think they should slow-play this and see what they have with Fox and Wemby for a full summer and some modest changes to the roster, that's fine. That's basically where I'm at. But if you're talking about adding a third star, cleaving to Steph doesn't make a ton of sense. They would definitely not have the touches to develop Castle as a star, and they may not have the leeway to let Castle figure things out as a role-player. If the team kept him and leveraged the unprotected picks needed to get a star without him, they could be forced into a situation where they can't play him high in the rotation. A guy like Knueppel may just be a better fit. So if folks want to hop back on Markkanen or Booker or Giannis or Sabonis or JJJ, that's where it's at.

The only star who could come in and meaningfully open a window for the Spurs but not either cost Castle or limit Castle's long-term path with the Spurs would be Durant. The Spurs might be able to get Durant with Vassell, Johnson/Barnes and some protected picks/lesser projects. His age would make it to where Castle could take over in a couple of years when KD aged out. I still don't think Steph could start for that team without improved shooting and a commitment to consistently good defense. Let's say Vassell, Johnson, Sochan and some future protected picks get it done.

Then in the draft, go Queen at 8, Richardson at 13/14 and Isaiah Evans at 38. In free agency, through a modest deal at Jake LaRavia and bring back Biyombo and promote one of Ingram/Minix. That leaves 14 roster spots taken as follows:

Fox, Richardson, Wesley
Champagnie, Castle, Branham,
Barnes, _____, Evans
Durant, LaRavia, Ingram
Wembayama, Queen, Biyombo

I'd REALLY want the Spurs to find a vet wing who could fill in that last rotation spot, be it a SF to back up Barnes or a SG to start in place of Champagnie, but there's a dearth of competent wings in the NBA right now. There's no one worth the MLE, even as a trade candidate.

Just a fun thought experiment, but what do you see happening with Castle if either pick jumps into the top 4?

[Mr. Body]

Just a fun thought experiment, but what do you see happening with Castle if either pick jumps into the top 4?

Nothing.

He's on long-term, big building block. The people here discussing trading him are lunatics.

[spurraider21]

Just a fun thought experiment, but what do you see happening with Castle if either pick jumps into the top 4?
if theyre going to make Fox/Castle backcourt work... Bailey is a big step in that direction

[Chinook]

Just a fun thought experiment, but what do you see happening with Castle if either pick jumps into the top 4?

Depends on who's still on the board. I don't think the FO is as against playing Castle at SF as some, so the two-guards in that range should still be options. Or maybe they go with a forward. Castle's presence shouldn't affect their board in any way.

[mo7888]

Nothing.

He's on long-term, big building block. The people here discussing trading him are lunatics.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."

F. Scott Fitzgerald

[Mr. Body]

At 4 you probably take Edgecombe or possibly trade back. Somehow people are forgetting that Fox is going to be 28 next year. He's not even so important that you don't draft good guards anyway. Bailey is not terribly interesting to me. If they can get Edgecombe, Knueppel, Johnson, or even Jakucionas out of this draft that's good for me.

[Mr. Body]

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."

F. Scott Fitzgerald

Sure, if one of the ideas has any merit whatsoever.

[exstatic]

Spot on! Whoever drafts him probably can’t expect much until year 2-3

Like Bruno Cabloco? Two years away from two years away?

[scott]

I am not even in the top 50% of amateur talent evaluators on this website (we have some great ones here)... but my subpar evaluation skills are not interested in another guy who's highlight video is a bunch of missed shots but "you just have to really see the game beyond that!"

No mas Sochanes

[mo7888]

Sure, if one of the ideas has any merit whatsoever.

You do realize that what you said is the exact opposite of the quote? You determine if there's any merit by actually entertaining both opposed views.

[exstatic]

I am not even in the top 50% of amateur talent evaluators on this website (we have some great ones here)... but my subpar evaluation skills are not interested in another guy who's highlight video is a bunch of missed shots but "you just have to really see the game beyond that!"

No mas Sochanes

It’s a giant dump of a huge amount of footage, 3 or 4 hours. 20 minute highlight videos don’t show a real picture.

[scott]

It’s a giant dump of a huge amount of footage, 3 or 4 hours. 20 minute highlight videos don’t show a real picture.

Does his .261 3P% show a real picture?

[exstatic]

Does his .261 3P% show a real picture?

Depends on his FT%. J Fears is shooting not much better than that, but shoots 85% FTs on 6 attempts. He started at OU at 17, running the show for his SEC team, and probably has to create his own looks.

[spurraider21]

Spot on! Whoever drafts him probably can’t expect much until year 2-3


Like Bruno Cabloco? Two years away from two years away?
thats the type of player i'd like to take second round swings on though. get them on 2-way contracts so they're not immediately getting a guaranteed multiyear deal and taking a roster spot. if they havent proven enough, lock them into a second year on a 2-way like we did with barlow.

if it doesnt work out, oh well it was a SRP and never occupied a true roster spot. worthwhile gamble.

what i hate is taking "two year away" players with first round picks like Salaun last year would have been

[scott]

Depends on his FT%. J Fears is shooting not much better than that, but shoots 85% FTs on 6 attempts. He started at OU at 17, running the show for his SEC team, and probably has to create his own looks.

Yep, it's a good thing there are no players with good FT%s who are bad 3P shooters.

[Mr. Body]

You do realize that what you said is the exact opposite of the quote? You determine if there's any merit by actually entertaining both opposed views.

On the one hand, we should keep Victor Wembanyama. On the other, we should throw him off a bridge.

There, now you're Nico Harrison.

[Dejounte]

I am not even in the top 50% of amateur talent evaluators on this website (we have some great ones here)... but my subpar evaluation skills are not interested in another guy who's highlight video is a bunch of missed shots but "you just have to really see the game beyond that!"

No mas Sochanes

The guy who commented about the video containing a bunch of missed layups wasn’t even being truthful about that. This sounds like a case of he said, she said type thing. I say try dedicating time to it and ignore what sparked this conversation in the first place. A lot of people want to say something without putting any effort in. They saw a couple missed layups and rationalized them, a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

[scott]

The guy who commented about the video containing a bunch of missed layups wasn’t even being truthful about that. This sounds like a case of he said, she said type thing. I say try dedicating time to it and ignore what sparked this conversation in the first place. A lot of people want to say something without putting any effort in. They saw a couple missed layups and rationalized them, a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

Fair enough... but my (admittedly less educated) position is that I don't want a guy who can't put the ball in the bucket efficiently but who "impacts the game in other ways". I know these guys can sometimes add value... I'm just fatigued on them as Spurs.

[Dejounte]

Fair enough... but my (admittedly less educated) position is that I don't want a guy who can't put the ball in the bucket efficiently but who "impacts the game in other ways". I know these guys can sometimes add value... I'm just fatigued on them as Spurs.

There is substance behind that argument. As with everything, however, it would be way better if stats were provided with full context— volume, monthly splits to show growth or regression, comparisons, etc. Being told he shoots 31% at the 3 pt line isn’t enough for me, especially if the player has a convincing shooting form. I don’t like taking things at face value.

[mo7888]

On the one hand, we should keep Victor Wembanyama. On the other, we should throw him off a bridge.

There, now you're Nico Harrison.

No...I'm just more intellectually curious than you... It's ok though...don't ever change..

[BackHome]

It is getting Spicy in here :corn:

[duncan2150]

After several months away from the forum, it is a pleasure to return for one of the best moments of the year with the draft.
It is also a pleasure to read your opinions on the different prospects.

I looked a little more this next draft class and based on the spurs weaknesses : the rebound, the defense, the shoot without forgetting the talent, I made the following board:

1- flagg ( no explanation needed)
2- harper ( this is a draft that seems to be two heads)
3- bailey ( if you go up without having flagg, it’s the best fit for me. He can do everything, shoot, take some bounce, counter ...you have to work on his IQ but I believe in it, he has a lot of natural qualities)
4- vj edgecomb ( most complete at this stage)
5- tre johnson- big shooter, a lot of things to learn yet but he can become a killer.
6- maluach- my number one choice if we stay in 8, it’s not sexy but he will contribute enormously in defense. We should not underestimate the contribution of a big back up who would play 10-15 minutes behind Victor and maybe 5-10 minutes at his side. Overall no rookie will play 30 minutes next year with our team except if we draft very high.
7- derik queen- the fit does not seem obvious because it appears more like an offensive prospect but the potential is great and it would bring physical density to the team.
8- I had trouble finding an 8th convincing player, so I’m ready to reach on Sorber if the injury is resolved. Interior complete and strong defensively not to mention its interesting pass game

overall the shooting potential of these bigs seems interesting, they are all not bad at free throws and a shoot could be developed for them.

Then it’s more complicated, I have a band with Demin, Knueppel, CMB, Jakucionis Newell and others. I need to think about how to classify them.

[rascal]

After several months away from the forum, it is a pleasure to return for one of the best moments of the year with the draft.
It is also a pleasure to read your opinions on the different prospects.

I looked a little more this next draft class and based on the spurs weaknesses : the rebound, the defense, the shoot without forgetting the talent, I made the following board:

1- flagg ( no explanation needed)
2- harper ( this is a draft that seems to be two heads)
3- bailey ( if you go up without having flagg, it’s the best fit for me. He can do everything, shoot, take some bounce, counter ...you have to work on his IQ but I believe in it, he has a lot of natural qualities)
4- vj edgecomb ( most complete at this stage)
5- tre johnson- big shooter, a lot of things to learn yet but he can become a killer.
6- maluach- my number one choice if we stay in 8, it’s not sexy but he will contribute enormously in defense. We should not underestimate the contribution of a big back up who would play 10-15 minutes behind Victor and maybe 5-10 minutes at his side. Overall no rookie will play 30 minutes next year with our team except if we draft very high.
7- derik queen- the fit does not seem obvious because it appears more like an offensive prospect but the potential is great and it would bring physical density to the team.
8- I had trouble finding an 8th convincing player, so I’m ready to reach on Sorber if the injury is resolved. Interior complete and strong defensively not to mention its interesting pass game

overall the shooting potential of these bigs seems interesting, they are all not bad at free throws and a shoot could be developed for them.

Then it’s more complicated, I have a band with Demin, Knueppel, CMB, Jakucionis Newell and others. I need to think about how to classify them.

Agree with the top 5.

I see the logic going big with the 8th pick and would rather see that than Kneuppel, Demin, Kasparas, then go Flemming or McNeeley with the Atlanta pick. I would rather even see both Flemming(can play at SF or PF) and McNeeley(true SF size) than any of those guards. Spurs are deep at guard(and not likely to trade Vassell) and unless you get into the top 4 for those top two guard prospects fill out the other weaker positions of need with the draft.

Only guards I want to see drafted are Harper at 2 or Edgecombe at 4 because of their high upside if the Spurs get into the top 4.

[Knoxxx]

Again the clear consensus top 4 but no consensus 5-14+ is nice for the Spurs sitting at 8 and 14. Lots of players that have been ranked as high as 5-6 will be around at 8-14 (Jaku, Knoeppel, Demin, Johnson, McNeeley to name a few).

[SpursBills]

Agree with the top 5.

I see the logic going big with the 8th pick and would rather see that than Kneuppel, Demin, Kasparas, then go Flemming or McNeeley with the Atlanta pick. I would rather even see both Flemming(can play at SF or PF) and McNeeley(true SF size) than any of those guards. Spurs are deep at guard(and not likely to trade Vassell) and unless you get into the top 4 for those top two guard prospects fill out the other weaker positions of need with the draft.

Only guards I want to see drafted are Harper at 2 or Edgecombe at 4 because of their high upside if the Spurs get into the top 4.

Why do you have Tre top 5 when you have Kon so low? Kon's got no vertical pop but Tre's is nothing to write home about - 7 dunks on the year, can't rebound for shit, can't generate turnovers to save his life suggests low functional athleticism, and he can't play 3. I don't have an issue with your logic of going big and leaning into athleticism and defense, but it seems to be inconsistent to have such a gap between Tre and Kon.

Also have you seen Adou Thiero? Wanted to get your thoughts on him as someone who values high level athleticism with size.

[scott]

Agree with the top 5.

I see the logic going big with the 8th pick and would rather see that than Kneuppel, Demin, Kasparas, then go Flemming or McNeeley with the Atlanta pick. I would rather even see both Flemming(can play at SF or PF) and McNeeley(true SF size) than any of those guards. Spurs are deep at guard(and not likely to trade Vassell) and unless you get into the top 4 for those top two guard prospects fill out the other weaker positions of need with the draft.

Only guards I want to see drafted are Harper at 2 or Edgecombe at 4 because of their high upside if the Spurs get into the top 4.

I disagree we are deep at guard. We have lots of guards... but only two of them are good.

[Dejounte]

Why do you have Tre top 5 when you have Kon so low? Kon's got no vertical pop but Tre's is nothing to write home about - 7 dunks on the year, can't rebound for shit, can't generate turnovers to save his life suggests low functional athleticism, and he can't play 3. I don't have an issue with your logic of going big and leaning into athleticism and defense, but it seems to be inconsistent to have such a gap between Tre and Kon.

Also have you seen Adou Thiero? Wanted to get your thoughts on him as someone who values high level athleticism with size.

One is black, the other is white. It’s really that simple for rascal.