2024 NBA Draft Thread

[scott]

Williams seems to be one of those "fluid" athletes at best while Holland looks like he's moving around on springs. I know they only show a couple makes but could the resident ST shot doctors tell me what's broken about Holland's jumper?

I'm not an expert, and I have Holland as #2 on my board, but his shot does have a little bit of that Michael Kidd-Gilchrist to it.

[Mr. Body]

I wanted to try and get a better idea for Stephon Castle's shooting prospects and the odds that he'd be a decent shooter. People cite his FT% often, but using that as a sole factor seems inaccurate. For me at least, trying to get an understanding of "touch" and 3 point accuracy looks at 4 factors - FT%, college 3 pt%, college 3 pt volume, and college midrange %. That said, Castle scores poorly in 3/4 categories - while his FT% is acceptable, his 3 point % (27), 3 point volume (75) and midrange accuracy (35%) are extremely worrisome to me. Looking at these factors, I would expect that he would not project to be a good shooter moving forward.

These are the results of a quick database search. I used Bart torvik to look for all 1st round draft picks (excluding bigs) in the last 17 years with the following:
FT% > 75
Midrange % < 40
3 point volume < 100
3 pt % < 30

Of the 17 hits, there were 3 guys who ended up turning into good shooters by their pre-draft season and then obviously became good NBA shooters
Buddy Hield (Fr), Jalen Williams (So), Mikal Bridges (Fr)

Of the 14 others, 6/14 became league average or better shooters:
Kawhi, Alec Burks, Oladipo, Delon Wright, Grant Williams, Pascal Siakam

Unfortunately, the 8/14 other players who did not become league average or better shooters all busted or are on their way out of the league

If we turn the FT filter down to 72%, we add Jaden Ivey, Kobe Brown, De'aaron Fox, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, and Jeff Taylor; none of these 5 are what I would call good shooters, although maybe there is some hope for Fox and Ivey in the future

So these results actually are more optimistic for Castle than I would have thought. I basically assumed that he had virtually zero chance of becoming an acceptable shooter with his metrics, but in truth I think that there is some precedent that he can get to at least league average. That may be enough if he is used more as a secondary creating POA defender like Jalen Suggs. However, this list also suggests that if he does not develop into a league average shooter, there is a decent chance he will bust out of the league along the likes of Nassir Little and MKG.

Those are actually some fantastic results, good work. If you have something like a 9 of 17 hit rate would be excellent, and it's notable that many of those who hit (became average shooters) are very high end role players or stars. For busts, a guy like Michael Kidd-Gilchrist is a very close comp and his J was fundamentally broken. He was improving in the NBA before injuries (shooting shoulder, etc.) completely derailed him.

One thing to notice is that a couple of these players, MKG, Mikal Bridges, also won NCAA titles. Others, like Oladipo and Jalen Williams, were very high end players in college. There was no Josh Minott "maybe he might be good someday."

A while back, I posted something I found about how smaller players in the lottery are more likely to hit in the NBA than bigs. The gist is that small players are simply better at basketball than bigger players... if they're drafted in the lottery. Basically, stating it the opposite way: if you're good enough to make the lottery as a small guy (6'1 or 6'3" or whatever), you're probably very, very good. A 6'8" guy is more of a 'promise' swing of the bat athlete, and a 7'1" center is even more hopeful.

Ergo, a reason why these guys in Castle's mold are hitting pretty well despite mixed shooting is that they're probably very good at everything else. They're really good players, with one significant question mark. If you can get that question mark figured out, then you have a Kawhi, an Oladipo (pre-injuries), Mikal Bridges, etc. You have a very good player.

[cutewizard]

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=972867454285339&set=a.777658820472871

[cutewizard]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5518599/2024/05/25/luka-doncic-shot-timberwolves-mavericks/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebookhq&source=fbhq&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1yg237ndjds_HaXA3EQv6m9 EdyDsAtn1EXcRvQHQWfB4RYQTK3AusVIJs_aem_AQw5QoTtLQq U4IfrG-jz84VT1H5iTEMIqpv9kKfuERHa21x9yBJaDZS2INKWJ-IA4liaOphs9sqv0kTW3TQyrU0K

[spurraider21]

I’d be good with that. I like castle much more as a wing than a point guard

[ChumpDumper]

This is one person's opinion mind you but I saw something similar.

1794850577001918572

I'd also add that he has that "Street Fighter 1/4 Circle - Hadouken" motion leading into the shot which I believe leads to inconsistencies upon release ie. two shots are never really the same.
Thanks.:tu

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not an expert, and I have Holland as #2 on my board, but his shot does have a little bit of that Michael Kidd-Gilchrist to it.
Yeah. It's not a good or consistent shot, but it doesn't seem to be completely irreparable. I'm biased toward players like Holland but I'm not going to be busted up when the Spurs don't pick him.

[Vienna]

Williams seems to be one of those "fluid" athletes at best while Holland looks like he's moving around on springs.

interestingly the atheltic test numbers of this two are almost identical. Holland jumped slightly higher from one foot (+2.5"), while Cody jumped slightly higher from two feet (+1"). Cody had a slightly better sprint time (3.06 to 3.10), Holland had slightly better shuttle run (2.91 to 2.93).
while I don't see the test numbers as an ultimate proof of the athletic abilities, I see it as an interesting discussion, that the eye test shows one player as a "dynamic athlete", while the other is more of this "fluid athlete", when both might be pretty much the same in the result.
that said, I think Cody might be a bit underrated in that aspect, because he looks so fluid.
in fact, his sprint time is outstanding for a guy his size and he beat most of the guards in the test.
this combine displayed an above average number of great sprint tests, but with his time of 3.06 cody would have won the sprint test in last years combine, as well as in the year before and going back the last 10 years, he would have been top 3 in 9 times out of 10.

[RC_Drunkford]

I saw Devin Carter as a trade down possibility, then I saw the spurs are interested in him at 8.

Kid is the type of competitor you want next to Wemby. Great defense, great reach, great rebounder and Just tough as nails. Looks like he has a legit shot and his timing and awareness are sorely needed with the spurs squad.

Feel like he's another Derrick White Combo type. And he has the hairline to compete.

also very quick and athletic. If we need something at the 1 it's speed and shooting. I'd prefer them trading down rather than picking him at 8.

[objective]

Just hire a shooting coach and put Holland in the gym until the season starts

Mark Price was hired to be shooting coach in Charlotte after MKG's rookie year if I remember right, didn't help much. Or course his shot was worse off

[Bruno]

Castle, Topic, Holland and Buzelis have all shoot about the same 3 pointers this year.

Their 3 point shot stats this year:
Castle: 20/78 (25.6%)
Topic: 21/73 (28.8%)
Holland: 23//92 (25%)
Buzelis: 29/106 (27.4%)

Holland and Buzelis were playing with the farther NBA 3 point line.

You can make a case for a player by saying that he shots well free throws or that his shooting mechanics looks good or could easily be fixed but these are kinda week arguments to me. Teams that draft them will only know if their shot can be fixed after weeks/months of practice. These players are even more of a gamble than other draft prospect because of that.

[RC_Drunkford]

Someone was asking about Castle's jump shot. I believe in his shot more than I do Sochan's, and Jeremy's is improvable, he just seems to be targeting the basket more than shooting in rhythm. Castle shoots pretty well from spots above the break. His motion, the form, all look pretty good. I think he can develop it. Will he be a knockdown shooter? Probably not. Will he keep defenses honest? I think so. My question is more about how relatively deliberate and slow he is attacking the rim. He's not going to get there at will. But with Wemby's gravity and other actions, he's gonna know where to cut and how things work.

Otherwise he's exactly what would be great in the Spurs system. His rotations and man defense will be excellent to exceptional. Navigates picks extremely well, just dogged and relentless on that end. On offense, he'll be able to make quick reads and reactions, move the ball, do the right things. He won't take a long time to figure things out. He has special capabilities like being a really strong screener for a guard, meaning you can possibly even have him screen for Wemby or others to get things going.

Only real question I have with him is his mentality. Is he a secret diva who wants the ball in his hands a lot? Is he going to get irritable if he doesn't? If he's not a lunatic and simply means he doesn't want to be defense-only next to a guy like LaMello Ball, that he'll be energized playing in a strong motion system where he'll have every opportunity to read and react, then he's the player to get in this draft.

And not because it's a bad draft. Without their hype, he could have pushed Scoot and the Thompsons last year for spots. It wouldn't be surprising to see him impacting the league more than they do in five to eight years.

He'd be super effective in inverted pick & rolls with Wemby. Doesn't have the speed to get by defenders, but is extremely crafty around the rim and with his wingspan I don't see a problem here. He's probably the safest bet out of the non-shooters to develop a reliable jump shot, cause he played PG in high school and has experience when it comes to shooting off the dribble, etc. although he's not converting them at an elite percentage.

My thing is just that I wouldn't play him as PG. He's a wing who could play PG with the bench once your starting PG sits or occassionally when you need stops.

[CGD]

If this is going to be the Luka of the next 4 years, I think it strengthens the case for someone like Castle.

[SpursBills]

Those are actually some fantastic results, good work. If you have something like a 9 of 17 hit rate would be excellent, and it's notable that many of those who hit (became average shooters) are very high end role players or stars. For busts, a guy like Michael Kidd-Gilchrist is a very close comp and his J was fundamentally broken. He was improving in the NBA before injuries (shooting shoulder, etc.) completely derailed him.

One thing to notice is that a couple of these players, MKG, Mikal Bridges, also won NCAA titles. Others, like Oladipo and Jalen Williams, were very high end players in college. There was no Josh Minott "maybe he might be good someday."

A while back, I posted something I found about how smaller players in the lottery are more likely to hit in the NBA than bigs. The gist is that small players are simply better at basketball than bigger players... if they're drafted in the lottery. Basically, stating it the opposite way: if you're good enough to make the lottery as a small guy (6'1 or 6'3" or whatever), you're probably very, very good. A 6'8" guy is more of a 'promise' swing of the bat athlete, and a 7'1" center is even more hopeful.

Ergo, a reason why these guys in Castle's mold are hitting pretty well despite mixed shooting is that they're probably very good at everything else. They're really good players, with one significant question mark. If you can get that question mark figured out, then you have a Kawhi, an Oladipo (pre-injuries), Mikal Bridges, etc. You have a very good player.

I think the pessimist's view of this is that there is about a 50% chance that he turns into a below average non-usable shooter. He can clearly ball and his passing ability gives him a moat, but can you think of any below average shooters (.320 or below on low-medium volume) that have had success in the league beyond being an end of bench guy? Ben simmons is the obvious one but he had all of Castle's strengths turned up to 10 before the Hawks series. Maybe pre-injury Justise winslow? I guess Marcus Smart had a terrible jumper for his first couple of years before improving and during that time he was still relatively useful. Guys who fill the role that Castle would fill, like Suggs, Holiday, and Derrick white, have all become above average shooters (Jalen Suggs hit 40% on 5 3s a game this year)

This is not to say I don't want Castle. But a 50% risk of being an end of bench player or worse is a scary outcome for a #4 pick and he definitely qualifies as more boom-or-bust than I would have thought. Then again, I don't know that we have too many options who are better. Even Risacher who seemed like the safest pick in the draft to me is surprisingly scary when I run his numbers against priors.

[CGD]

^ with everything else he brings, I happily take the 50% chance that Castle’s shooting improves like Suggs, Holiday, and White. That sounds good actually.

If the Spurs want the safe plug and play guy, they can trade up for ZR.

[exstatic]

Castle, Topic, Holland and Buzelis have all shoot about the same 3 pointers this year.

Their 3 point shot stats this year:
Castle: 20/78 (25.6%)
Topic: 21/73 (28.8%)
Holland: 23//92 (25%)
Buzelis: 29/106 (27.4%)

Holland and Buzelis were playing with the farther NBA 3 point line.

You can make a case for a player by saying that he shots well free throws or that his shooting mechanics looks good or could easily be fixed but these are kinda week arguments to me. Teams that draft them will only know if their shot can be fixed after weeks/months of practice. These players are even more of a gamble than other draft prospect because of that.

The FT thing as a shooting signal is based on a consistent repeatable shooting motion. If you look at the really great shooters, the guys shooting well above 40% from beyond the arc year after year, you won’t see a hair’s difference in their shooting motion. Mechanics and a repeatable motion are everything in shooting the basketball, and I find this a shockingly awful take from you, Bruno. The Spurs certainly don’t follow your school of thought. The story of Kawhi at the combine blows that up. The Spurs desperately wanted to see his ‘new’ form that he had been working on, but he wasn’t scheduled to shoot or workout because of an ankle injury. They basically stalked him throughout the combine, and when he got bored waiting to be measured, he put up some shots. That observation of his shooting was the deciding factor in going all in to get him. Watching. Him. Shoot.

[exstatic]

I think the pessimist's view of this is that there is about a 50% chance that he turns into a below average non-usable shooter. He can clearly ball and his passing ability gives him a moat, but can you think of any below average shooters (.320 or below on low-medium volume) that have had success in the league beyond being an end of bench guy? Ben simmons is the obvious one but he had all of Castle's strengths turned up to 10 before the Hawks series. Maybe pre-injury Justise winslow? I guess Marcus Smart had a terrible jumper for his first couple of years before improving and during that time he was still relatively useful. Guys who fill the role that Castle would fill, like Suggs, Holiday, and Derrick white, have all become above average shooters (Jalen Suggs hit 40% on 5 3s a game this year)

This is not to say I don't want Castle. But a 50% risk of being an end of bench player or worse is a scary outcome for a #4 pick and he definitely qualifies as more boom-or-bust than I would have thought. Then again, I don't know that we have too many options who are better. Even Risacher who seemed like the safest pick in the draft to me is surprisingly scary when I run his numbers against priors.

Doncic first two seasons: .327 and 315. Doughy white boy with good size, but nearly zero NBA level altheticism, but a pick and roll and overall passing wizard.

[SpursBills]

Doncic first two seasons: .327 and 315. Doughy white boy with good size, but nearly zero NBA level altheticism, but a pick and roll and overall passing wizard.

Luka also put up 7-8 3s a game his first two years and clearly had significant shooting gravity - I have a hard time classifying that as "low-medium volume"

EDIT:
Jimmy Butler the last few seasons I can think of for now, which has always been Castle's upside comp, but I think Jimmy has a couple other advantages going for him as well

[SpursBills]

^ with everything else he brings, I happily take the 50% chance that Castle’s shooting improves like Suggs, Holiday, and White. That sounds good actually.

If the Spurs want the safe plug and play guy, they can trade up for ZR.

I agree with you, I have Castle top 2 right now and I think he's worth the risk. Just wanted to explore the fact that Castle has been called "high floor" and see how true that really was

[LeBowen]

Doncic first two seasons: .327 and 315. Doughy white boy with good size, but nearly zero NBA level altheticism, but a pick and roll and overall passing wizard.

Athleticism is way more than speed and vertical.
Luka had elite body control and lower body strength from day one.

And looking at just shooting splits never tells the whole story.
Players need to be split in two categories. Ones that need to be stopped from shooting and ones that opponents are daring to shoot.

We need way more than someone who's going to be able to hit corner threes. Devin is good and then we need two more elite shooters opponents really want to stop from getting their shot off.

[Twisted_Dawg]

I wanted to try and get a better idea for Stephon Castle's shooting prospects and the odds that he'd be a decent shooter. People cite his FT% often, but using that as a sole factor seems inaccurate. For me at least, trying to get an understanding of "touch" and 3 point accuracy looks at 4 factors - FT%, college 3 pt%, college 3 pt volume, and college midrange %. That said, Castle scores poorly in 3/4 categories - while his FT% is acceptable, his 3 point % (27), 3 point volume (75) and midrange accuracy (35%) are extremely worrisome to me. Looking at these factors, I would expect that he would not project to be a good shooter moving forward.

These are the results of a quick database search. I used Bart torvik to look for all 1st round draft picks (excluding bigs) in the last 17 years with the following:
FT% > 75
Midrange % < 40
3 point volume < 100
3 pt % < 30

Of the 17 hits, there were 3 guys who ended up turning into good shooters by their pre-draft season and then obviously became good NBA shooters
Buddy Hield (Fr), Jalen Williams (So), Mikal Bridges (Fr)

Of the 14 others, 6/14 became league average or better shooters:
Kawhi, Alec Burks, Oladipo, Delon Wright, Grant Williams, Pascal Siakam

Unfortunately, the 8/14 other players who did not become league average or better shooters all busted or are on their way out of the league

If we turn the FT filter down to 72%, we add Jaden Ivey, Kobe Brown, De'aaron Fox, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, and Jeff Taylor; none of these 5 are what I would call good shooters, although maybe there is some hope for Fox and Ivey in the future

So these results actually are more optimistic for Castle than I would have thought. I basically assumed that he had virtually zero chance of becoming an acceptable shooter with his metrics, but in truth I think that there is some precedent that he can get to at least league average. That may be enough if he is used more as a secondary creating POA defender like Jalen Suggs. However, this list also suggests that if he does not develop into a league average shooter, there is a decent chance he will bust out of the league along the likes of Nassir Little and MKG.

Hey SpursBills, thank you for this very insightful post and the many others you do. Much appreciated. Do you think the complexities of that UConn offense might have hindered Castle's offensive game. They run a complex offense with all various different screens. Castle coming in as a freshman to a team at the highest college level with experienced upper classmen, accepted his role to focus on defense. As the season progressed, his offense seems to have improved. So I'm wondering if Castle coming in as a freshman to the defending national champions playing in a complex offense with experienced teammates might have hindered Castle's offensive production?

[Vienna]

I found an interesting comparison for Castle......DeMar ReRozan. at least regarding their measurements. but there might be some more similarities.

DD: height w/o shoes: 6'5.5", wingspan: 6'9", reach: 8'6.5", weight: 211 lbs.
SC: height w/o shoes: 6'5.5", wingspan: 6'9", reach 8'6.0", weight: 210 lbs.

test number are pretty similar as well (Castle is faster than DD was) 38.5"/37.0", 29"/28.5", 3.31sec/3.19sec
college stats are close in many categories.

so, Castle looks a bit like a twin brother of DeRozan. if Castle can't improve his 3pt shot, will he become another DD? (hopefully with better defense)

[exstatic]

Athleticism is way more than speed and vertical.
Luka had elite body control and lower body strength from day one.

And looking at just shooting splits never tells the whole story.
Players need to be split in two categories. Ones that need to be stopped from shooting and ones that opponents are daring to shoot.

We need way more than someone who's going to be able to hit corner threes. Devin is good and then we need two more elite shooters opponents really want to stop from getting their shot off.

We actually don’t need Castle or Topic to be elite. Either of them at league average (36%) is a potent weapon. Supporting players who bring one or two skills to the table need to be elite at one. Like a 3&D guy, you’d want him to shoot over 40% if he isn’t an all D level defender.

[exstatic]

Luka also put up 7-8 3s a game his first two years and clearly had significant shooting gravity - I have a hard time classifying that as "low-medium volume"

EDIT:
Jimmy Butler the last few seasons I can think of for now, which has always been Castle's upside comp, but I think Jimmy has a couple other advantages going for him as well
I’m not giving any gravity to some fucker shooting ..315. Basic close out, and he can pull up to the buffet and have all he can eat.

[SpursBills]

I’m not giving any gravity to some fucker shooting ..315. Basic close out, and he can pull up to the buffet and have all he can eat.

I mean, I think in Luka's case most NBA coaches would disagree with you, but you do you I guess?

[mo7888]

interestingly the atheltic test numbers of this two are almost identical. Holland jumped slightly higher from one foot (+2.5"), while Cody jumped slightly higher from two feet (+1"). Cody had a slightly better sprint time (3.06 to 3.10), Holland had slightly better shuttle run (2.91 to 2.93).
while I don't see the test numbers as an ultimate proof of the athletic abilities, I see it as an interesting discussion, that the eye test shows one player as a "dynamic athlete", while the other is more of this "fluid athlete", when both might be pretty much the same in the result.
that said, I think Cody might be a bit underrated in that aspect, because he looks so fluid.
in fact, his sprint time is outstanding for a guy his size and he beat most of the guards in the test.
this combine displayed an above average number of great sprint tests, but with his time of 3.06 cody would have won the sprint test in last years combine, as well as in the year before and going back the last 10 years, he would have been top 3 in 9 times out of 10.

I don't think there's a world where I could take Holland over Williams. They have similar athletic numbers, as you pointed out. One is more powerful and one's a little smoother. One has a broken shot and one doesn't. It's a fairly simple calculation to me .

[SpursBills]

Hey SpursBills (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=18470), thank you for this very insightful post and the many others you do. Much appreciated. Do you think the complexities of that UConn offense might have hindered Castle's offensive game. They run a complex offense with all various different screens. Castle coming in as a freshman to a team at the highest college level with experienced upper classmen, accepted his role to focus on defense. As the season progressed, his offense seems to have improved. So I'm wondering if Castle coming in as a freshman to the defending national champions playing in a complex offense with experienced teammates might have hindered Castle's offensive production?

I've been wondering this myself, I'm not really sure to be honest. On the one hand, I would think that learning complex sets does take some time to learn and the mental energy required to concentrate on knowing where to be and how to run complex actions may affect your shooting. On the other hand, Castle benefited from the significant gravity of Spencer and Karaban, I think in one of his tournament games that he went off on, he was getting basically wide open looks. So you would think that would actually inflate his numbers a little bit, especially his percentages.

One thing to note about the above list though is that of the 3 guys who ended up good shooters, we see 2 freshmen and a sophomore late bloomer, which gives me some hope that he may follow a similar path.

[LeBowen]

We actually don’t need Castle or Topic to be elite. Either of them at league average (36%) is a potent weapon. Supporting players who bring one or two skills to the table need to be elite at one. Like a 3&D guy, you’d want him to shoot over 40% if he isn’t an all D level defender.

We need someone to be elite. You're not getting anywhere if you don't have a couple of elite 3pt shooters.
With the way the game is played today, we also need some ballhandlers that need to be chased over screens in PNR. That would be a cheat code in combination with Wemby's verticality.

[exstatic]

I mean, I think in Luka's case most NBA coaches would disagree with you, but you do you I guess?

If you close out hard, he’s by you, and wreaking havoc in a 5 on 4 where you know he’s finding someone for a dunk. Or, you can close soft and let him put up that .315 three pointer. I mean, even Luka knew the gig was up, and he worked very hard to improve his 3 bomb. I think you have to be somewhere in the vicinity of league average to have volumetric gravity, and he is that, now.

[bluebellmaniac]

interestingly the atheltic test numbers of this two are almost identical. Holland jumped slightly higher from one foot (+2.5"), while Cody jumped slightly higher from two feet (+1"). Cody had a slightly better sprint time (3.06 to 3.10), Holland had slightly better shuttle run (2.91 to 2.93).
while I don't see the test numbers as an ultimate proof of the athletic abilities, I see it as an interesting discussion, that the eye test shows one player as a "dynamic athlete", while the other is more of this "fluid athlete", when both might be pretty much the same in the result.
that said, I think Cody might be a bit underrated in that aspect, because he looks so fluid.
in fact, his sprint time is outstanding for a guy his size and he beat most of the guards in the test.
this combine displayed an above average number of great sprint tests, but with his time of 3.06 cody would have won the sprint test in last years combine, as well as in the year before and going back the last 10 years, he would have been top 3 in 9 times out of 10.

Capitalisation is your friend, use it.

Oh my eyes!!!

[SpursBills]

If you close out hard, he’s by you, and wreaking havoc in a 5 on 4 where you know he’s finding someone for a dunk. Or, you can close soft and let him put up that .315 three pointer. I mean, even Luka knew the gig was up, and he worked very hard to improve his 3 bomb. I think you have to be somewhere in the vicinity of league average to have volumetric gravity, and he is that, now.

I would argue that in Luka's case, his offensive playmaking and ability to function as a hub his first two years would be significantly diminished if he was shooting 32% on 2 3's a game as opposed to 7-8 a game.

[John B]

If you close out hard, he’s by you, and wreaking havoc in a 5 on 4 where you know he’s finding someone for a dunk. Or, you can close soft and let him put up that .315 three pointer. I mean, even Luka knew the gig was up, and he worked very hard to improve his 3 bomb. I think you have to be somewhere in the vicinity of league average to have volumetric gravity, and he is that, now.

I never thought he’d co-exist with another ball-hog, but Kyrie seems enjoying the wins when they work together. And both can take over games and willing passers. It’s choosing your poison really

[spursparker9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-GX3ujwWmc

[exstatic]

I never thought he’d co-exist with another ball-hog, but Kyrie seems enjoying the wins when they work together. And both can take over games and willing passers. It’s choosing your poison really

Kyrie normally has a calm year or two wherever he goes before his freaky brain shorts out and he moves on. I do agree they’re working together well at this time.

[BatManu20]

I’m still back and forth on the 4th pick, I’m leaning Castle or Dillingham. At 8 I’m starting to become pretty firm on drafting Tidjane Salaun, a lot of upside and honestly has played solid as of late.

Salaun's defense is horrible apparently. Some NBA twitter guy posted a video discussing it. Aside from his rawness and low FG%, that's his big bugaboo apparently. He can't defend.

[Spursfanfromafar]

I found an interesting comparison for Castle......DeMar ReRozan. at least regarding their measurements. but there might be some more similarities.

DD: height w/o shoes: 6'5.5", wingspan: 6'9", reach: 8'6.5", weight: 211 lbs.
SC: height w/o shoes: 6'5.5", wingspan: 6'9", reach 8'6.0", weight: 210 lbs.

test number are pretty similar as well (Castle is faster than DD was) 38.5"/37.0", 29"/28.5", 3.31sec/3.19sec
college stats are close in many categories.

so, Castle looks a bit like a twin brother of DeRozan. if Castle can't improve his 3pt shot, will he become another DD? (hopefully with better defense)

DeRozan plays a brand of basketball that is not winning in today's NBA. But he lifts the floor of his team significantly, because of his efficient midrange shooting, decent playmaking and clutch performance. And while he is a net minus on defense, he has adjusted better in the PF role ..something that he started to take on during the Spurs days.

A quick look at Castle's numbers show that his midrange shooting is not that great either. If he doesn't improve upon that, there is no comparison with DeRozan, no matter the physical similarity.

I just hope he doesn't turn out to be like Anthony Black or Markelle Fultz who have poor 3 Pt percentages, ranges and abilities.

[BatManu20]

I don't think there's a world where I could take Holland over Williams. They have similar athletic numbers, as you pointed out. One is more powerful and one's a little smoother. One has a broken shot and one doesn't. It's a fairly simple calculation to me .

Williams is also a high-character kid, which the Spurs obviously put a lot of stock into. Holland's character has reportedly been brought into question by scouts. That alone would give Williams the nod in any hypothetical scenario between the two imo.

[exstatic]

DeRozan plays a brand of basketball that is not winning in today's NBA. But he lifts the floor of his team significantly, because of his efficient midrange shooting, decent playmaking and clutch performance. And while is a net minus on defense, he has adjusted better in the PF role ..something that he started to take on during the Spurs days.

A quick look at his numbers show that his midrange shooting is not that great either. If he doesn't improve upon that, there is no comparison with DeRozan, no matter the physical similarity.

I just hope he doesn't turn out to be like Anthony Black or Markelle Fultz who have poor 3 Pt percentages, ranges and abilities.

Anthony Black has had one year in the league, and didn’t do too badly for trying to develop on a playoff team. He hasn’t turned out to be anything yet, because he’s 20 years old. He also shot 39% from 3 on about 3 attempts per game, covering 17 minutes.

[BacktoBasics]

Anthony Black has had one year in the league, and didn’t do too badly for trying to develop on a playoff team. He hasn’t turned out to be anything yet, because he’s 20 years old. He also shot 39% from 3 on about 3 attempts per game, covering 17 minutes.

Yeah it’s way too early to criticize Black. He played well in limited minutes and generally spent the year learning and watching.

If you talk to Orlando fans they are still very high on him and don’t in any way look at him as a bust. It was a developmental year in their eyes and they believe he’ll garner more legitimate minutes if they move on from Fultz.

[rascal]

Hey SpursBills, thank you for this very insightful post and the many others you do. Much appreciated. Do you think the complexities of that UConn offense might have hindered Castle's offensive game. They run a complex offense with all various different screens. Castle coming in as a freshman to a team at the highest college level with experienced upper classmen, accepted his role to focus on defense. As the season progressed, his offense seems to have improved. So I'm wondering if Castle coming in as a freshman to the defending national champions playing in a complex offense with experienced teammates might have hindered Castle's offensive production?

This plus Castle was injured early in the season and started off slowly.

[Mnky]

also very quick and athletic. If we need something at the 1 it's speed and shooting. I'd prefer them trading down rather than picking him at 8.

He's sneaky athletic too. He tied with the highest vertical standing and approach. He also had one of the best agility times. I didn't even realize he was that athletic watching him. He definitely checks a lot of boxes. Watching him block a 6'10 dude trying to post him let me know all I had to on his mentality. I'm high on him.

[Knoxxx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-GX3ujwWmc

I would like to add Edey, but I am too greedy to give up either of our top 8 picks.

[Pauleta14]

Castle, Topic, Holland and Buzelis have all shoot about the same 3 pointers this year.

Their 3 point shot stats this year:
Castle: 20/78 (25.6%)
Topic: 21/73 (28.8%)
Holland: 23//92 (25%)
Buzelis: 29/106 (27.4%)

Holland and Buzelis were playing with the farther NBA 3 point line.

You can make a case for a player by saying that he shots well free throws or that his shooting mechanics looks good or could easily be fixed but these are kinda week arguments to me. Teams that draft them will only know if their shot can be fixed after weeks/months of practice. These players are even more of a gamble than other draft prospect because of that.


Theses % should be put in perspective imo

At least for Castle. I read an article posted here a cple days ago explaining that Castle overall 3pts% were heavily impacted by a very bad start. his last couple months he shot 40% and 35%

No idea about the others but there could be another similar case

If you take away Wemby's 1st month, his 3pts % would be close to elite already

[C-Dub]

Castle or Dillingham at #4 depending on which one is available because I see Houston selecting one of the 2 with their 3rd pick.

Edey at #8 to help Wemby from having to always be responsible for gaurding the likes of Embid, Jokic, and other girthy physical big men down in the paint. Collins and Bassey is not going to cut it moving forward and by drafting Edey, that's one less big body Wemby would have to endure.

The Spurs could have multiple 1st round picks next year where they could focus on wing players in a much deeper draft class

[alfahdlan]

https://www.aol.com/reed-sheppard-rob-dillingham-team-170034165.html

The article described the relationship of teammates Rob and Reed, also the possibility that one of the duo might be headed to San Antonio.

[Bruno]

At least for Castle. I read an article posted here a cple days ago explaining that Castle overall 3pts% were heavily impacted by a very bad start. his last couple months he shot 40% and 35%


Castle shot better the ball in the second half of the regular season but he ended badly his season. He was 4/18 from 3 in the March Madness tournament and 0/4 in the Big East tournament just before.

[Uriel]

For those of you with already established big boards/prospect rankings, I’m curious: how many of you have actually watched these prospects and seen them play as opposed to just reading mock drafts/internet forums?

[DAF86]

Castle is last draft's Anthony Black. Spurstalk has a thing for guards that can't shoot, tbh.

[BackHome]

And Spurstalk always has a thing for midgets who can’t play an ounce of defense somethings never change :lol

[Vienna]

Castle shot better the ball in the second half of the regular season but he ended badly his season. He was 4/18 from 3 in the March Madness tournament and 0/4 in the Big East tournament just before.

it's interesting to evaluate ups and downs and/or development of some prospects. for example Carrington. hie 3pt shooting is labeled as his main question mark. but he is one of these players, who improved significantly to the end of the season. in his last 10 games he shot over 40% on a good volume of over 6 shots per game. (25-62)
so teams will wonder, did he improve, and considering he is one of the youngest players in the draft, is this part of his development. if teams think that he is a better shooter than his number for the whole season suggests, he will skyrockt on some boards.

[alfahdlan]

Castle's strength is defense against those driving to the basket with Clingan waiting for the possible block. His weakness is closing out on three pointers. Castle's in game misses are bad. I might choose Castle if he is a point guard but I don't see it. Tristen Newton was clearly the point guard of UConn.

[Limguogolo]

For those of you with already established big boards/prospect rankings, I’m curious: how many of you have actually watched these prospects and seen them play as opposed to just reading mock drafts/internet forums?

"None. We just look at the metrics and we read a lot from some NBA twitter guys posting videos discussing prospects. Why?"

[Seventyniner]

For those of you with already established big boards/prospect rankings, I’m curious: how many of you have actually watched these prospects and seen them play as opposed to just reading mock drafts/internet forums?

Oh, you want informed opinions? There are a handful of those here but you might want to widen your net if that's what you're after.

[Mr. Body]

For those of you with already established big boards/prospect rankings, I’m curious: how many of you have actually watched these prospects and seen them play as opposed to just reading mock drafts/internet forums?

I haven't watched Holland, Sarr or Topic.

[Pauleta14]

Castle shot better the ball in the second half of the regular season but he ended badly his season. He was 4/18 from 3 in the March Madness tournament and 0/4 in the Big East tournament just before.

Fair enough. I forgot about the tournament (the most important ^^)

[rascal]

Castle is last draft's Anthony Black. Spurstalk has a thing for guards that can't shoot, tbh.

He looks more athletic than Black.

I didn't like Black but I like Castle. Black has already improved his 3 pt shooting.

Forget those Kentucky guards. They won't be 20 point a game league scorers.

They are bench players at most. I like Sheppard more as a coming off the bench option.

Dillingham is too small and is going to get cooked on defense and played off the floor. We saw how they folded up in their first tournament game.

[Mr. Body]

Castle's strength is defense against those driving to the basket with Clingan waiting for the possible block. His weakness is closing out on three pointers. Castle's in game misses are bad. I might choose Castle if he is a point guard but I don't see it. Tristen Newton was clearly the point guard of UConn.

They both ran point actions.

Castle is very clearly a guard. That's what he played in NCAA. More importantly, it's who he defended. He played point in high school.

[Mr. Body]

Castle is last draft's Anthony Black. Spurstalk has a thing for guards that can't shoot, tbh.

I'm a bit confused about what people think drafting players is. Like, do you think you're going to be drafting a complete all around player right off the bat? Because that almost never happens.

What's also confusing is that... defense is important? Really important. I get that there's a brigade here that thinks we don't have to play defense at all. (These are the same people who have hissy fits when some guard drops 60 points on us or we can't stop teams in general.)

So there's this constant back and forth complaining about not having offensive players who can shoot and then complaining about not having defense.

It's practically impossible to get both at the same time in a prospect. Especially in this draft, you're getting one or the other at best. The reason for so much discussion about defensive guards last draft (trading up) is that... we need defense. If you want Luka Doncic to break into the lane and throw embarrassing lobs to Derek Lively time and time again, that's your thing. But at least an Anthony Black has the size, mobility, and skill to possibly slow Doncic down so those lobs aren't automatic and his deep range bombs aren't automatic.

[rascal]

If Sarr, Risacher and Castle go in the top three. Worst case scenario

That puts the Spurs in a tough spot. I don't see them drafting Dillingham at 4 or even at 8.

They will probably go with Topic.

[R. DeMurre]

I was thinking about the great documentary Hoop Dreams this morning, and remembering how midway through the movie Gates seemed so much more mature than Agee, but by the end Agee was the better player. It seemed like such a crazy twist in the plot at the time, but in a scouting world where players are only 19 and 20, it happens all the time. There's a distinct possibility that "doing all of your homework" only raises the chances of you being right by 10-20%, or something like that. The endless blathering on about Primo's uncanny maturity and incredibly high character was pretty much proof of that.

[Rocalcio]

It’s funny how no one here have the same hopes for this draft, some want Risacher, others want Castle or Topic, some even want Clingan.
That will be an interesting draft night !

[RC_Drunkford]

Actually the majority here has Risacher, Castle, Sarr and Dillingham as their top 4 from what I‘ve seen, just in different orders. I agree with that.

[rjv]

I was thinking about the great documentary Hoop Dreams this morning, and remembering how midway through the movie Gates seemed so much more mature than Agee, but by the end Agee was the better player. It seemed like such a crazy twist in the plot at the time, but in a scouting world where players are only 19 and 20, it happens all the time. There's a distinct possibility that "doing all of your homework" only raises the chances of you being right by 10-20%, or something like that. The endless blathering on about Primo's uncanny maturity and incredibly high character are pretty much proof of that.

frickin' great film. it's so cool to see the two of them hosting a podcast together now.

[Spurs9]

It’s funny how no one here have the same hopes for this draft, some want Risacher, others want Castle or Topic, some even want Clingan.
That will be an interesting draft night !
Since there is so much up in the air I feel like the 4 is the perfect spot to pick. I'd say theres a high chance some of the first 3 teams will pick completely unexpectedly overthinking a pick and someone top 3 will be someone no one expected.

[DAF86]

He looks more athletic than Black.

I didn't like Black but I like Castle. Black has already improved his 3 pt shooting.

Forget those Kentucky guards. They won't be 20 point a game league scorers.

They are bench players at most. I like Sheppard more as a coming off the bench option.

Dillingham is too small and is going to get cooked on defense and played off the floor. We saw how they folded up in their first tournament game.

I don't expect them to be. Also, neither is Castle. The Kentucky guards, at least, have a much bigger chance of becoming rotation pieces, specially Sheppard. Castle could be out of the league by year 3.

[R. DeMurre]

The 20 ppg goal is completely arbitrary. I'd much rather have a guy who defends and puts up something like 16/7/4 with good shooting percentages and good impact over a guy who wants to be the star of the show. Anyone joining the Spurs has to recognize that Wemby is the #1 guy.

[BatManu20]

It’s funny how no one here have the same hopes for this draft, some want Risacher, others want Castle or Topic, some even want Clingan.
That will be an interesting draft night !

Each prospect just has so many question marks tbh. It's a unique draft in that sense. Literally every prospect in the lottery has major flaws/weaknesses, which makes it difficult to project not only their fit, but whether or not they'll even be serviceable role players. Should be a fun draft night indeed. I do think there will end up being at least 2-3 prospects who become All-Stars down the line though, as is with most drafts.

[DAF86]

I'm a bit confused about what people think drafting players is. Like, do you think you're going to be drafting a complete all around player right off the bat? Because that almost never happens.


There's a difference between drafting a bad shooter but that you know has a big chance of improving in that area, and someone that was given 15 ft of cushion in the NCAA tournament by opposing coaches.

Also, context matters. If we hadn't recently drafted tens of prospects with iffy shooting that haven't really panned out, then I might be more on board with drafting Castle (for example, I was excited about drafting guys like Kawhi and Sochan), but after the Keldons, Samanics, Brahnams, Wesleys, I need a rest and switch it up a little. Draft some shooters for once and try to work on the rest of their game. You might get the next Aaron Nesmith or Brandin Podziemski, guys who were thought to be nothing but shooters coming out of college and ended up being well rounded rotation pieces in the NBA.


What's also confusing is that... defense is important? Really important. I get that there's a brigade here that thinks we don't have to play defense at all. (These are the same people who have hissy fits when some guard drops 60 points on us or we can't stop teams in general.)

So there's this constant back and forth complaining about not having offensive players who can shoot and then complaining about not having defense.

It's practically impossible to get both at the same time in a prospect. Especially in this draft, you're getting one or the other at best. The reason for so much discussion about defensive guards last draft (trading up) is that... we need defense. If you want Luka Doncic to break into the lane and throw embarrassing lobs to Derek Lively time and time again, that's your thing. But at least an Anthony Black has the size, mobility, and skill to possibly slow Doncic down so those lobs aren't automatic and his deep range bombs aren't automatic.

Defense is the hardest thing to translate to the NBA, the pace and spacing is just too different to any other type of basketball played (college or overseas). Vassell and Sochan were suppossed to be elite defensive players in college and people here can't stop bitching about their defense.

Sure, you can hit on a Kawhi here and there, but drafting for defense is about the most useless thing a franchise can do. Nobody goes into a draft thinking "we are gonna get ourselves the next Bruce Bowen". If you want to secure defense, just sign a couple of 3 and D guys from free agency, tbh.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

They both ran point actions.

Castle is very clearly a guard. That's what he played in NCAA. More importantly, it's who he defended. He played point in high school.
Granted it was a very small sample size, but I starting digging into some of Castle's high school film to see what he looked like running point. While he played "point guard" and showed some decent passing chops and iq, he's not what I would call a pass-first guy. Mostly, he's looking to score for himself and he does some nice crafty shit in the mid-range. I saw the Derozan comparison earlier, but he's not as explosive or athletic as DDR. SGA wouldn't be a terrible comp -- although I can't imagine Castle achieves anywhere near those type of heights offensively. SGA has a freakish wingspan and was a better shooter at the same age, but Castle has a certain pacing and control to his game that is reminiscent.


If Sarr, Risacher and Castle go in the top three. Worst case scenario

That puts the Spurs in a tough spot. I don't see them drafting Dillingham at 4 or even at 8.

They will probably go with Topic.

I gotta think that Sarr and Risacher go 1/2, in either order. Not that either of those franchises will follow any sort of rational pathway, but I imagine they will get skewered for deviating from status quo that early in the draft. Houston has been big on BPA, but I would be pretty surprised to see them take Castle after drafting Thompson last year especially with a bit of a roster glut on the wings. They also are in more of a win now mode and if they can get any sort of immediate contribution from say Clingan or Sheppard, it makes more sense than taking a flyer on another project especially when their developmental minutes are so scarce. But yeah, Topic might make the most sense in that scenario. Or maybe Buzelis.

[Mr. Body]

He looks more athletic than Black.

I didn't like Black but I like Castle. Black has already improved his 3 pt shooting.

Forget those Kentucky guards. They won't be 20 point a game league scorers.

They are bench players at most. I like Sheppard more as a coming off the bench option.

Dillingham is too small and is going to get cooked on defense and played off the floor. We saw how they folded up in their first tournament game.

I'll bet Dillingham scores more than 20 ppg at some point in his career. Look at how he stacks up to other Kentucky guards of similar stature:

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=rob-dillingham--tyrese-maxey--immanuel-quickley--de-aaron-fox--malik-monk

Fox and Maxey score well above 20 in the NBA. Monk has only scored 15 ppg, Quickley scored 18 ppg for Toronto this year and may go above 20 next year.

Check them coming out of college. Per 36, Dillingham has them all beat in ppg, assists, and was easily the best shooter, even better than Monk. His 3pt% clears them all.

[DAF86]

And Spurstalk always has a thing for midgets who can’t play an ounce of defense somethings never change :lol

I'd rather draft a Patty Mills than a Blake Wesley, tbh. At least the former wouldn't be a complete waste of a lottery pick, tbh.

[exstatic]

Castle's strength is defense against those driving to the basket with Clingan waiting for the possible block. His weakness is closing out on three pointers. Castle's in game misses are bad. I might choose Castle if he is a point guard but I don't see it. Tristen Newton was clearly the point guard of UConn.

EVERYONE on the UConn squad was a PG, even Clingan. Part of that system is reading and reacting. If there’s a pin down screen, and the defender cheats over it, even the center has to react to the back cut, and hit the cutter. The fact that you took time to type that statement makes me think you didn’t watch 5 minutes of UConn bball this year.

[DAF86]

I really hope Risacher is available at 4, that would simplify things a lot for PATFO's drafting process. Just get the only 6'9" ish forward that can shoot at 4, and then let the others decide which guard you are gonna take at 8 (Sheppard, Dillingham, Castle or Topic).

[ace3g]

https://x.com/DraftExpress/status/1795538917439214001

[alfahdlan]

EVERYONE on the UConn squad was a PG, even Clingan. Part of that system is reading and reacting. If there’s a pin down screen, and the defender cheats over it, even the center has to react to the back cut, and hit the cutter. The fact that you took time to type that statement makes me think you didn’t watch 5 minutes of UConn bball this year.

if by saying that you also mean james bouknight was a point guard, i’ll rest my case.

[Mr. Body]

if by saying that you also mean james bouknight was a point guard, i’ll rest my case.

James Bouknight was on UConn this year? Holy shit.

[alfahdlan]

James Bouknight was on UConn this year? Holy shit.
He was under uconn system once under the same system is he not?

[exstatic]

if by saying that you also mean james bouknight was a point guard, i’ll rest my case.

Don’t be obtuse. Reading for context is important, so when I specifically mention a player from THIS YEAR’S TEAM and say the UConn squad, I’m talking about THIS YEAR’S TEAM.

[alfahdlan]

You said " part of that system." Not the squad.

[exstatic]

EVERYONE on the UConn squad was a PG, even Clingan. Part of that system is reading and reacting. If there’s a pin down screen, and the defender cheats over it, even the center has to react to the back cut, and hit the cutter. The fact that you took time to type that statement makes me think you didn’t watch 5 minutes of UConn bball this year.


You said " part of that system." Not the squad.

Opening sentence, along with a reference to a player from this year’s squad.

[buttsR4rebounding]

There's a difference between drafting a bad shooter but that you know has a big chance of improving in that area, and someone that was given 15 ft of cushion in the NCAA tournament by opposing coaches.

Also, context matters. If we hadn't recently drafted tens of prospects with iffy shooting that haven't really panned out, then I might be more on board with drafting Castle (for example, I was excited about drafting guys like Kawhi and Sochan), but after the Keldons, Samanics, Brahnams, Wesleys, I need a rest and switch it up a little. Draft some shooters for once and try to work on the rest of their game. You might get the next Aaron Nesmith or Brandin Podziemski, guys who were thought to be nothing but shooters coming out of college and ended up being well rounded rotation pieces in the NBA.



Defense is the hardest thing to translate to the NBA, the pace and spacing is just too different to any other type of basketball played (college or overseas). Vassell and Sochan were suppossed to be elite defensive players in college and people here can't stop bitching about their defense.

Sure, you can hit on a Kawhi here and there, but drafting for defense is about the most useless thing a franchise can do. Nobody goes into a draft thinking "we are gonna get ourselves the next Bruce Bowen". If you want to secure defense, just sign a couple of 3 and D guys from free agency, tbh.

Sochan ranked 3rd in the league in perimeter defense last year. While he was crap as a point guard he is actually quite good at defending the bigger point guards. That was probably the biggest silver lining in Sochan's play last year.

[spurraider21]

1795572500027633730

[spurraider21]

the shot attempt at 0:23 is fuckin awesome. nearly no dip on the catch and shoot. thats what the best of the best shooters can do. Klay was a monster at that. Batum does that at a high level. even D-Lo this year

[rjv]

i don't see the discussion for risacher being all that relevant because there is a very slim chance he drops to 4. the only way i think any debate pops up is if any rumors about the spurs offering 4 and 8 to move up were to begin circulating.

[Mugen]

I was against trading up in this draft but if they like Risacher well enough then they should engage Washington on what it would take to go from 4 > 2. I don't think #8 should be involved but I think there's a palpable deal to be had if they wanted it done tbh.

[Dejounte]

i don't see the discussion for risacher being all that relevant because there is a very slim chance he drops to 4. the only way i think any debate pops up is if any rumors about the spurs offering 4 and 8 to move up were to begin circulating.
Thank god

[spurraider21]

I was against trading up in this draft but if they like Risacher well enough then they should engage Washington on what it would take to go from 4 > 2. I don't think #8 should be involved but I think there's a palpable deal to be had if they wanted it done tbh.
how many seconds will it take :lol

[Mugen]

how many seconds will it take :lol

Their 2nds this year, the Charlotte pick which is basically 2 seconds, and Blake Wesley tbh. Pull the trigger, BWrong.

[TD 21]

The Wizards are said to be searching for another 1st, so it'd probably take 4 and 8 for 2 and 26, so they'd at least significantly upgrade their secondary 1st.

The Spurs could then package 26 and 35 to try to move back up into the 20 range if they want.

Of course, this being the Spurs, there's about a .1% chance of that happening. Count on them staying put and selecting Castle and probably Salaun.

[baseline bum]

I was thinking about the great documentary Hoop Dreams this morning, and remembering how midway through the movie Gates seemed so much more mature than Agee, but by the end Agee was the better player. It seemed like such a crazy twist in the plot at the time, but in a scouting world where players are only 19 and 20, it happens all the time. There's a distinct possibility that "doing all of your homework" only raises the chances of you being right by 10-20%, or something like that. The endless blathering on about Primo's uncanny maturity and incredibly high character was pretty much proof of that.

Didn't Gates blow out his knee at Marquette? Or am I remembering wrong?

[rjv]

Didn't Gates blow out his knee at Marquette? Or am I remembering wrong?

i think he blew out his knee in high school, and it severely impacted his recruiting.

[baseline bum]

i think he blew out his knee in high school, and it severely impacted his recruiting.

You sure? Can't imagine he would have gotten a scholarship to Marquette if it happened in HS. Now I gotta go watch that movie again lol.

[PhantomDashCam]

1795527574732575175


https://youtu.be/dcL74_9GTcQ?si=Z8Q1Ej_ezsXz9PU0

FWIW, I believe Bryan has interviewed previous Spurs draft prospects before…

[rjv]

You sure? Can't imagine he would have gotten a scholarship to Marquette if it happened in HS. Now I gotta go watch that movie again lol.

yeah, i'm pretty sure. marquette, i think, had offered before the injury and honored the offer even afterwards. not sure if gates still lives in SA but i know his son graduated from clemens high school a few years back.

[PhantomDashCam]

A couple of workout updates. Possible second rounders??

1795457240419242109

1795505476148293865

[Dejounte]

A couple of workout updates. Possible second rounders??

1795457240419242109

1795505476148293865

how do you find these

[PhantomDashCam]

how do you find these

1. https://hoopshype.com/lists/2024-draft-workouts-tracker/

2. Search "Spurs Draft" on X and select latest tab

[scott]

1. https://hoopshype.com/lists/2024-draft-workouts-tracker/

2. Search "Spurs Draft" on X and select latest tab

Interesting notes on the workout tracker:

1. Dillon Jones and Payton Sandfort are working out for everyone it seems
2. Blazers bringing in lots of bigs for workouts
3. Pels brought in Tyler Smith for a workout. I like that fit, and NO picks in the right range. Hate it as a Spurs fan. When does NO have to make a decision on the Lakers pick? Wonder if they could fall in love with someone like Smith and decide to take it this year.
4. Spurs mostly bringing in unrated prospects. In the past, hasn't in been the case that the Spurs use workouts as scouting for 2-way and G-League talent?

[DAF86]

The Wizards are said to be searching for another 1st, so it'd probably take 4 and 8 for 2 and 26, so they'd at least significantly upgrade their secondary 1st.

The Spurs could then package 26 and 35 to try to move back up into the 20 range if they want.

Of course, this being the Spurs, there's about a .1% chance of that happening. Count on them staying put and selecting Castle and probably Salaun.

Trading up to 2 to get Risacher, and then trading up to the top 20 to get Carrington might be the best possible scenario.

[Thomas82]

Since there is so much up in the air I feel like the 4 is the perfect spot to pick. I'd say theres a high chance some of the first 3 teams will pick completely unexpectedly overthinking a pick and someone top 3 will be someone no one expected.

Well, there is at least 1 surprise in every draft. Maybe it can work out in our favor this year.

[PhantomDashCam]

Interesting notes on the workout tracker:

1. Dillon Jones and Payton Sandfort are working out for everyone it seems
2. Blazers bringing in lots of bigs for workouts
3. Pels brought in Tyler Smith for a workout. I like that fit, and NO picks in the right range. Hate it as a Spurs fan. When does NO have to make a decision on the Lakers pick? Wonder if they could fall in love with someone like Smith and decide to take it this year.
4. Spurs mostly bringing in unrated prospects. In the past, hasn't in been the case that the Spurs use workouts as scouting for 2-way and G-League talent?

On a couple of these points:

2. The Blazers workouts are interesting as they post interviews and with some in-scrimmage highlights (and also obviously because of where they are drafting), on YouTube and X. Ware and Smith played not only against each other in the work out but on the same team at times it seemed. Definitely worth keeping tabs on them.

4. I went over the last couple of years of HoopsHype workout trackers and interestingly enough both Jeremy Sochan and Malaki Branham were not listed but Blake Wesley was.
(I remember he blabbed on a podcast that the Spurs really liked him there in a group workout).

And in the dreaded 2021 draft, Josh Primo's name was missing too.

Might be useful to keep an eye on what type of players the Spurs don't workout over this time that: A) are consensus lottery talents, B) fit team needs and C) intel that Timvp receives as he updates his Big Boards.

[itzsoweezee]

1795572500027633730

Yeah, he’s not falling to 4th

[ismael-robert]

Yall thankful for that win over Denver now

[BatManu20]

Yeah, he’s not falling to 4th

Never was tbh. WAS is taking him at 2.

[taps]

Never was tbh. WAS is taking him at 2.

For this the basketball gods did smile on us and gave us two lottery picks.

[Uriel]

1795572500027633730
Serious question: if the schedules for the NCAA tournament and the French league playoffs had been switched—that is, if Castle and Clingan had been the ones balling out for UConn instead of Risacher this time of year—would their projections in mock drafts and big boards also be switched?

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmI1aQlPmw

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8IrMsjxQwE

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW0uMrMluAk

[JPB]

Serious question: if the schedules for the NCAA tournament and the French league playoffs had been switched—that is, if Castle and Clingan had been the ones balling out for UConn instead of Risacher this time of year—would their projections in mock drafts and big boards also be switched?

They wouldn't, first because (real) scouts don't give the Tournament that much importance and don't react to the moment, off a few games. The also know anyway the level of play is really different. Bourg or Monaco would pulverize any team in College, which is honestly hard to watch, messy BB between teens learning how to play ball and won't turn pro for the majority. There's no comparison.

They'll take those good Risacher playoffs performance within the globality of his season, and potentially as a little coming out party for Zach who's raising his potential and celing here. he's shown some conffidence, aggressiveness and comfort against one of the best team in Europe (and outside America) that gives you some hope he could be more than a solid role player. time will tell.

[JPB]

I always believed Zach was spurs' guy, but he's going top 2, and even #1 imo. He might be the only real prospect of this draft with (borderline) star potential, and a real difference maker anyway, reason why I'd give 4 and 8 + SRPs to get him, which I'm not even sure would do it.

I don't believe there's other players worth not giving that trade a try. specially if spurs are actually eaying 2025 to find key pieces, which would make adding two future bench guys this year counterproductive.

I could live next season with

Garland/Trae
Devin
Zach
Sochan
wemby

[exstatic]

On a couple of these points:

2. The Blazers workouts are interesting as they post interviews and with some in-scrimmage highlights (and also obviously because of where they are drafting), on YouTube and X. Ware and Smith played not only against each other in the work out but on the same team at times it seemed. Definitely worth keeping tabs on them.

4. I went over the last couple of years of HoopsHype workout trackers and interestingly enough both Jeremy Sochan and Malaki Branham were not listed but Blake Wesley was.
(I remember he blabbed on a podcast that the Spurs really liked him there in a group workout).

And in the dreaded 2021 draft, Josh Primo's name was missing too.

Might be useful to keep an eye on what type of players the Spurs don't workout over this time that: A) are consensus lottery talents, B) fit team needs and C) intel that Timvp receives as he updates his Big Boards.

Toe
Pitch

[exstatic]

Yall thankful for that win over Denver now

Considering Portland finished 4th and drew 7th, and we finished 5th and drew 4th, I’m loving that win about now. Also still loving losing the coin flip to Houston last year.

[Pauleta14]

Serious question: if the schedules for the NCAA tournament and the French league playoffs had been switched—that is, if Castle and Clingan had been the ones balling out for UConn instead of Risacher this time of year—would their projections in mock drafts and big boards also be switched?

I'm not sure.

ZR played A LOT more games against A LOT tougher oppositions. His slump happened after he already played +40 games for ex

It could have influenced fans perception but not professional scouts who would have put things in perspective imo

[Mr. Body]

Kind of funny, because I don't think Risacher would be very good in the UConn offense. Think I'm crazy? I'm not. He can't dribble in traffic, like at all. He can barely dribble against a single defender, and his passing and reads are pretty poor. Yeah, he'd be getting every single shot off he wants, but that's not what made their offense lethal. The best he could do was line up behind the three and wait for kick-outs.

[DAF86]

Kind of funny, because I don't think Risacher would be very good in the UConn offense. Think I'm crazy? I'm not. He can't dribble in traffic, like at all. He can barely dribble against a single defender, and his passing and reads are pretty poor. Yeah, he'd be getting every single shot off he wants, but that's not what made their offense lethal. The best he could do was line up behind the three and wait for kick-outs.

Why is there this misconception that Risacher can't put the ball on the floor? He will never be a main creator, but as an off-ball player that attacks out of spot-ups he's more than fine.

[Mr. Body]

Why is there this misconception that Risacher can't put the ball on the floor? He will never be a main creator, but as an off-ball player that attacks out of spot-ups he's more than fine.

Because he's really bad for his level with the ball. Have you watched him? Honestly he's pretty awful attacking closeouts or making more than a straight line at the basket. He's phenomenal in the open floor, very fast and aggressive. If he can get a straight line at the basket, it's a phenomenal thunder-dunk.

But making moves of any complication and decisions in any sort of tight space is kind of a disaster. He's pretty terrible at it. Making passes on the move sends the ball out of bounds or into the hands of defenders more often than not. And I fear that he's so poor at driving or handling the ball, that defenders can close him out pretty aggressively. (Here's where his height really shines, as he can still get the shot off.) There's a reason why he has a 0.55 assist/turnover ratio and why he's getting tagged as having no self-creation.

[BackHome]

Yeah Mantas is the same

[Limguogolo]

Zak Risacher scouting reporter: He's no Lebron. As a SF he's a terrible PG. Can't penetrate and can't pass the ball.

Zak Risacher agent: Yeah, but as a SF he has good size. He can shot. And defend. And as as SF he can play... SF.

Zak Risacher scouting reporter: Neh. He's no Lebron.

Zak Risacher mom: Lebron can't shot the threes.

All NBA Teams: What's your number? We will fire this scout.

Make American scouting reports great again.

[Eaglenole2002]

Interesting that KOC has McCain 9 and he said he’s going to move him up even higher. He’s an amazing shooter, but not a point guard. Can he defend well enough to play SG on offense but guard PGs?

[ace3g]

He is in Dallas working out with Melvin Sanders

C7j_tADs3aV

[Mitch Cumsteen]

Can we talk about Dalton Knecht for a minute?

At first blush, I was completely out on a 23 year old until I found out the dude grew 5 inches since high school, and subsequently moved up from the lowest ranks of college basketball into big time D1. I have to think twice about his being maxed out at 23, when his growth as a player is probably more appropriately attributed to his actual physical growth vs just being older/stronger/more experienced than his counterparts. His background sounds nearly identical to Derrick White's, except he's probably slightly more athletic (see 39" vertical at the combine). The fact that he's had to work his way up from nothing is also appealing in the, "does he check off the box of being over himself" way, I think he's big enough and athletic enough to not be a complete liability on defense, and there's no question about his shooting and scoring chops. I wouldn't be too upset to see him at 8, especially if they took someone with a worse shooting profile like Castle or Topic at 4.

[ace3g]

Michael Ajayi will withdraw
Anthony Dell'Orso has withdrawn
Princeton's Xaivian Lee will withdraw
Garwey Dual will withdraw
Ugonna Onenyso will withdraw
Baba Miller will withdraw

Arizona’s Caleb Love will withdraw


Jonathan Givony (https://x.com/DraftExpress)@DraftExpress
(https://x.com/DraftExpress)



·

[CGD]

He is in Dallas working out with Melvin Sanders

C7j_tADs3aV

I think the Spurs swing hard on this guy at 8. They’ll take Castle or Topic at 4.

It’s still a month until the draft, and I bet the media will lever up Topic hard once he’s able to practice again.

[BatManu20]

I think the Spurs swing hard on this guy at 8. They’ll take Castle or Topic at 4.

It’s still a month until the draft, and I bet the media will lever up Topic hard once he’s able to practice again.

Hope CHA or POR takes him before we get a chance to. He’s an extremely raw project of a player who can’t defend. Hard pass tbh.

[NASpurs]

Hope CHA or POR takes him before we get a chance to. He’s an extremely raw project of a player who can’t defend. Hard pass tbh.

"With the 4th pick in the 2024 NBA Draft..."

:lol

[BatManu20]

"With the 4th pick in the 2024 NBA Draft..."

:lol

:lol ST would go into full meltdown mode. Would be worse than the Primo draft tbh.

[ace3g]

https://x.com/DraftExpress/status/1795941343602053588

[Knoxxx]

Considering Portland finished 4th and drew 7th, and we finished 5th and drew 4th, I’m loving that win about now. Also still loving losing the coin flip to Houston last year.

pwned!

[MultiTroll]

It most likely would not be entertained, however IF another team was willing to accept it.....
Would you trade #8 '24 Spurs pick to another team for their top 2025 draft pick?
Same Q #4.
Since the '25 draft is supposed to be so much better.

Of course it would have to be to a team that was highly, i mean extremely likely to finish with a suck record thus be not only lotto, but preferably top 5 lotto chance.

Is the 2025 Lotto so much stronger that hell ya you would consider that. *If a team was willing to trade this draft.

[ace3g]

https://x.com/DraftExpress/status/1795987742637044220

[Mr. Body]

Totally see something like Castle at 4, Devin Carter at 8.

[Knoxxx]

Can we talk about Dalton Knecht for a minute?

At first blush, I was completely out on a 23 year old until I found out the dude grew 5 inches since high school, and subsequently moved up from the lowest ranks of college basketball into big time D1. I have to think twice about his being maxed out at 23, when his growth as a player is probably more appropriately attributed to his actual physical growth vs just being older/stronger/more experienced than his counterparts. His background sounds nearly identical to Derrick White's, except he's probably slightly more athletic (see 39" vertical at the combine). The fact that he's had to work his way up from nothing is also appealing in the, "does he check off the box of being over himself" way, I think he's big enough and athletic enough to not be a complete liability on defense, and there's no question about his shooting and scoring chops. I wouldn't be too upset to see him at 8, especially if they took someone with a worse shooting profile like Castle or Topic at 4.

With the spectre of a possible non shooter choice at 4 looming, I did the math and saw a potential best shooter option of Knecht at the 8 as somewhat comforting. Nothing wrong with a Castle + Knecht combo for example. The math indicates we will be choosing from 3-4 of Knecht/Holland/Williams/Salaun at the #8. You can see why I’d consider Knecht the safest option but Williams is actually the upside play I like due to his length, 3 PT shooting potential, and bloodline.

And think of it this way. Keldon is actually a valued 6th man at this point. He makes some impact despite his main flaws of traffic cone defense and too low 3 PT shooting %. Knecht seems like a clear upgrade, even if he is similarly bad on defense, so that’s a nice upgrade at the 8 spot and cheaper too on a rookie deal.

[ace3g]

https://x.com/ShamsCharania/status/1795994268735037553

[ace3g]

https://x.com/DraftExpress/status/1795995449846792268

[Knoxxx]

Assuming a top 5 of Sarr, Risacher, Castle, Sheppard, Dilly. Who is your top 3 players to target at pick 8 to couple with ONE of those 5 and why?

[mo7888]

Assuming a top 5 of Sarr, Risacher, Castle, Sheppard, Dilly. Who is your top 3 players to target at pick 8 to couple with ONE of those 5 and why?

Ok, I'll play. I'll assume Sheppard at #4 and I'll go Buzelis at #8. The reasoning is that I think Matas has enough court vision and will have enough handle to be a secondary playmaker to balance out with Sheppard.

[Knoxxx]

Ok, I'll play. I'll assume Sheppard at #4 and I'll go Buzelis at #8. The reasoning is that I think Matas has enough court vision and will have enough handle to be a secondary playmaker to balance out with Sheppard.

Good choice I like Buzelis’ size and attacking and protection of the rim.

[Uriel]

So I looked at a bunch of big boards and compiled this consensus ranking of the top 10 prospects available, based on a simple average of each prospect's ranking on the big board. Take note, this is a ranking, not a mock draft, and this is current as of May 30:

1. Alex Sarr
2. Zaccharie Risacher
3. Stephon Castle
4. Reed Sheppard
5. Ron Holland
6. Nikola Topic
7. Matas Buzelis
8. Donovan Clingan
9. Rob Dillingham
10. Dalton Knecht

Notes:
1. It's interesting that Castle has now risen to become the consensus #3 after Sarr and Risacher. This makes me even more convinced he will be our selection at #4 if he's available, assuming Sarr and Risacher are off the board.
2. Topic being ranked ahead of Dillingham is also interesting. Combined with intel from timvp that the Spurs haven't shown much interest in him (perhaps to disguise their interest), him being our selection at #8 is not out of the question, especially if he's medically cleared.
3. Sheppard and Holland get a lot more credit from the pundits than they do on this board. Holland, in particular, is a polarizing prospect, with some ranking him as high as #1 and others as low as #11.
4. The consensus ranking for wings appears to be Risacher, Buzelis, Knecht, Williams (who's not shown here but is #11 in the consensus), and Salaun (#12).
5. Given that, I see the most likely scenario being that we draft Castle at #4. If we view him as a wing, we will probably pick one of Topic or Dillingham at #8, whoever is available. If we view him as a PG, we will most likely pick one of Buzelis, Knecht, Williams, or Salaun.

[Mr. Body]

I didn't realize 2016 and 2017 had the same exact draft order for the first four picks. I guess I wasn't paying attention those years. That's wild.

1. Philadelphia Sixers
2. Los Angeles Lakers
3. Boston Celtics
4. Phoenix Suns

Do you remember who those picks turned out to be? Philly's 'Process' was getting rave reviews, filling in the slots after Embiid was selected a couple years before. LA Lakers picked two near-stars who seemed destined to never be great, who would be traded for Anthony Davis. Boston Celtics got their two centerpiece players, who may finally, seven years later, get them a highly tarnished ring. And the Phoenix Suns, well, they truly shit the bed.

Sixers. They picked Ben Simmons and Markelle Fultz. Simmons, a guy too lazy and disinterested to get his LSU team into the tournament. Fultz, who lead his Washington team to a 9-22 record.

Lakers. Picked Brandon Ingram and then Lonzo Ball. Good picks.

Celtics. Picked Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum, who have dominated an absolutely terrible Eastern Conference for years and only now are getting their second Finals berth. Good picks overall, though.

Suns. Just amazing stuff. Dragan Bender and Josh Jackson. Neither player is even in the league anymore. Wild swings. Draft graders loved them also picking Marquisse Chriss the Dragan Bender year. Somewhat interesting that Jackson shot .378 from three his single college year but only .566 from the line.

Don't think there's anything necessarily to take from these except just don't be the Suns. Always amazing to look back both at draft selections and then draft grades and how many guys you just don't remember at all. The Ben Simmons year was fairly bad overall, but a number of the players eventually got good. The ROY that year was 2nd round pick Malcolm Brogdan.

[DAF86]

I think the Spurs swing hard on this guy at 8. They’ll take Castle or Topic at 4.

It’s still a month until the draft, and I bet the media will lever up Topic hard once he’s able to practice again.

Man, Castle and Salaun would be such a risky draft, and one that I don't see panning out at all. PATFO can't strike out on both top 10 picks, they just can't. If they do, some heads need to roll, tbh.

[DAF86]

With the spectre of a possible non shooter choice at 4 looming, I did the math and saw a potential best shooter option of Knecht at the 8 as somewhat comforting. Nothing wrong with a Castle + Knecht combo for example. The math indicates we will be choosing from 3-4 of Knecht/Holland/Williams/Salaun at the #8. You can see why I’d consider Knecht the safest option but Williams is actually the upside play I like due to his length, 3 PT shooting potential, and bloodline.

And think of it this way. Keldon is actually a valued 6th man at this point. He makes some impact despite his main flaws of traffic cone defense and too low 3 PT shooting %. Knecht seems like a clear upgrade, even if he is similarly bad on defense, so that’s a nice upgrade at the 8 spot and cheaper too on a rookie deal.

Dillingham will be there at 8 if you want shooting. I do like Knecht, though.

[DAF86]

I didn't realize 2016 and 2017 had the same exact draft order for the first four picks. I guess I wasn't paying attention those years. That's wild.

1. Philadelphia Sixers
2. Los Angeles Lakers
3. Boston Celtics
4. Phoenix Suns

Do you remember who those picks turned out to be? Philly's 'Process' was getting rave reviews, filling in the slots after Embiid was selected a couple years before. LA Lakers picked two near-stars who seemed destined to never be great, who would be traded for Anthony Davis. Boston Celtics got their two centerpiece players, who may finally, seven years later, get them a highly tarnished ring. And the Phoenix Suns, well, they truly shit the bed.

Sixers. They picked Ben Simmons and Markelle Fultz. Simmons, a guy too lazy and disinterested to get his LSU team into the tournament. Fultz, who lead his Washington team to a 9-22 record.

Lakers. Picked Brandon Ingram and then Lonzo Ball. Good picks.

Celtics. Picked Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum, who have dominated an absolutely terrible Eastern Conference for years and only now are getting their second Finals berth. Good picks overall, though.

Suns. Just amazing stuff. Dragan Bender and Josh Jackson. Neither player is even in the league anymore. Wild swings. Draft graders loved them also picking Marquisse Chriss the Dragan Bender year. Somewhat interesting that Jackson shot .378 from three his single college year but only .566 from the line.

Don't think there's anything necessarily to take from these except just don't be the Suns. Always amazing to look back both at draft selections and then draft grades and how many guys you just don't remember at all. The Ben Simmons year was fairly bad overall, but a number of the players eventually got good. The ROY that year was 2nd round pick Malcolm Brogdan.

You know what the Suns did? Draft supossedly high upside guys with defensive and playmaking abilities but questionable shooting, at number 4. What does that sound like?

[Mr. Body]

You know what the Suns did? Draft supossedly high upside guys with defensive and playmaking abilities but questionable shooting, at number 4. What does that sound like?

Maybe. Jackson's main problem is that he didn't know how to play basketball. Dragan Bender was a massive reach through and through.

[CGD]

So I looked at a bunch of big boards and compiled this consensus ranking of the top 10 prospects available, based on a simple average of each prospect's ranking on the big board. Take note, this is a ranking, not a mock draft, and this is current as of May 30:

1. Alex Sarr
2. Zaccharie Risacher
3. Stephon Castle
4. Reed Sheppard
5. Ron Holland
6. Nikola Topic
7. Matas Buzelis
8. Donovan Clingan
9. Rob Dillingham
10. Dalton Knecht

Notes:
1. It's interesting that Castle has now risen to become the consensus #3 after Sarr and Risacher. This makes me even more convinced he will be our selection at #4 if he's available, assuming Sarr and Risacher are off the board.
2. Topic being ranked ahead of Dillingham is also interesting. Combined with intel from timvp that the Spurs haven't shown much interest in him (perhaps to disguise their interest), him being our selection at #8 is not out of the question, especially if he's medically cleared.
3. Sheppard and Holland get a lot more credit from the pundits than they do on this board. Holland, in particular, is a polarizing prospect, with some ranking him as high as #1 and others as low as #11.
4. The consensus ranking for wings appears to be Risacher, Buzelis, Knecht, Williams (who's not shown here but is #11 in the consensus), and Salaun (#12).
5. Given that, I see the most likely scenario being that we draft Castle at #4. If we view him as a wing, we will probably pick one of Topic or Dillingham at #8, whoever is available. If we view him as a PG, we will most likely pick one of Buzelis, Knecht, Williams, or Salaun.

Very useful.

I think when it’s all said and done, Topic is going to get levered up again by the media and be firmly in the Top 5. Same way as how ZR is now “clearly” a top 2 pick despite his limitations.

[k830713]

Draft NBA 2024:
Nr 4 - Risacher, Sarr, Dillingham, Williams
Nr 8 - Buzelis, Sheppard, Holland, Knecht, Castle, Topić
FA - Miles Bridges, Obi Toppin, Patrick Williams, Saddiq Bey, Malik Monk, Gary Trent Jr.

Jones - 1 - Wesley
Vassell - Branham - Cissoko (Osman)
2 - Johnson - Champagne
Sochan - 3 - Mamukelashvili
Wembanyama - Collins - Bassey (Barlow)

[tbdog]

You know what the Suns did? Draft supossedly high upside guys with defensive and playmaking abilities but questionable shooting, at number 4. What does that sound like?

false equivalence fallacy. They are not truly equivalent.

[exstatic]

I didn't realize 2016 and 2017 had the same exact draft order for the first four picks. I guess I wasn't paying attention those years. That's wild.

1. Philadelphia Sixers
2. Los Angeles Lakers
3. Boston Celtics
4. Phoenix Suns

Do you remember who those picks turned out to be? Philly's 'Process' was getting rave reviews, filling in the slots after Embiid was selected a couple years before. LA Lakers picked two near-stars who seemed destined to never be great, who would be traded for Anthony Davis. Boston Celtics got their two centerpiece players, who may finally, seven years later, get them a highly tarnished ring. And the Phoenix Suns, well, they truly shit the bed.

Sixers. They picked Ben Simmons and Markelle Fultz. Simmons, a guy too lazy and disinterested to get his LSU team into the tournament. Fultz, who lead his Washington team to a 9-22 record.

Lakers. Picked Brandon Ingram and then Lonzo Ball. Good picks.

Celtics. Picked Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum, who have dominated an absolutely terrible Eastern Conference for years and only now are getting their second Finals berth. Good picks overall, though.

Suns. Just amazing stuff. Dragan Bender and Josh Jackson. Neither player is even in the league anymore. Wild swings. Draft graders loved them also picking Marquisse Chriss the Dragan Bender year. Somewhat interesting that Jackson shot .378 from three his single college year but only .566 from the line.

Don't think there's anything necessarily to take from these except just don't be the Suns. Always amazing to look back both at draft selections and then draft grades and how many guys you just don't remember at all. The Ben Simmons year was fairly bad overall, but a number of the players eventually got good. The ROY that year was 2nd round pick Malcolm Brogdan.

I think that’s great advice. They’ve had terrible draft after terrible draft. Even when they won the lottery, they picked a guy whose big goal was to get his second contract. They hit much harder in the teens, with Book and Cam.

[exstatic]

false equivalence fallacy. They are not truly equivalent.

Josh Jackson was more like Holland than Castle, a jumping jack athlete with no jumper.

[Mr. Body]

Jackson also had an incredibly bad attitude, apparently.

The grace of Castle is that he played very high basketball at his level and that, while his team would have ringed without him, he might have been the second most important of their players.

Taking physical phenoms hoping they will learn to shoot us one thing. A player who already has a basketball basis and is effective even before a jumpshot is another.

[Mugen]

You know what the Suns did? Draft supossedly high upside guys with defensive and playmaking abilities but questionable shooting, at number 4. What does that sound like?

I mean Scottie Barnes is that archetype and went top 5 a few drafts later. He won ROtY. It's not an exact science tbh.

[Mr. Body]

What's funny is this team went to get shooters and the fanbase despises the players they got - Forbes and McDermott. Hell, most of them hate Patty Mills.

Just got to understand most of this fanbase is clinically insane and not worth more than a laugh.

[Mugen]

:lmao the problem was Forbes was playing over guys like Dejounte and DWhite. But nah the old man is always correct sniiiiiiiffffffff

[Mugen]

A revisionist history case for Bryn Fucking Forbes :lmao

[Mr. Body]

:lmao the problem was Forbes was playing over guys like Dejounte and DWhite. But nah the old man is always correct sniiiiiiiffffffff

Right on cue, lol. No pleasing the dipshits.

[Mugen]

Right on cue, lol. No pleasing the dipshits.

Only a true Sniffer would equate an 8th man like Patty Mills to a loser like Bryn Forbes who the old man played over above average players like Dejounte & DWhite for several seasons :lol

[Degoat]

4th- Castle/Dillingham- one of them gotta be the pick, A lot of upside between the two imo. Castle could be that big athletic lead guard that the spurs have been looking for, Dillingham’s offense could be Elite.

8th- Bit more tricky tbh. Could be whichever prospect falls, I honestly think Topic falls to 8th and at that point I’d consider taking a chance on him.

[Joseph Kony]

What's funny is this team went to get shooters and the fanbase despises the players they got - Forbes and McDermott. Hell, most of them hate Patty Mills.

Just got to understand most of this fanbase is clinically insane and not worth more than a laugh.
you're such a fucking dumbass, it's mindboggling how purposely obtuse and stupid you are. No one hates Patty Mills, or even McDermott. people hated Pop overplaying them dipshit. but please, whine more about how Spurs fans are toxic and the worst fanbase as if you arent a complete retard

[Mr. Body]

Only a true Sniffer would equate an 8th man like Patty Mills to a loser like Bryn Forbes who the old man played over above average players like Dejounte & DWhite for several seasons :lol

I'm not even supporting those players, you monkey brained idiot. I'm just pointing out how ST freaks will get mad when they get shooters. And then they get mad when they get other players.

Lol, just go fuck yourself. As if I needed to prove my point. LMAO

[Leetonidas]

If you don't like ST no one is forcing you to post here 24/7

[Knoxxx]

Dillingham will be there at 8 if you want shooting. I do like Knecht, though.

I think I got flamed for suggesting Dilly at 8 instead of 4. For those that high on Dilly, fine, but he could drop was the point, not that he was a bad pick. But Dilly at 4 is not what the rankings say, so you are operating on your own rankings while I agree with the consensus top 4. That means the Spurs are most likely taking Castle or Sheppard, whichever is available.

My 5-10 is pretty similar to what Uriel posted:

5. Ron Holland
6. Nikola Topic
7. Matas Buzelis
8. Donovan Clingan
9. Rob Dillingham
10. Dalton Knecht

Mine:

5 Dillingham
6 Topic
7 Knecht
8 Cody Williams
9 Buzelis
10 Holland

So I just swap out Clingan for Williams and move Holland down, mainly. As my list is a SPURS list, not a consensus list. Also you can see I am actually higher on Dilly than the consensus, just don't have him over Castle/Sheppard. With that pair as my 3 and 5 rated players (castle/dilly), you can see why I'd love getting them.

The interesting part is who to pair which I have not really posted about, though I know others have.

#4 Castle, then in order any of my 5-10 except Topic. Topic being a pure PG, and both of them having suspect shooting, no thanks. Not to mention Castle wanting to play PG.
#4 Sheppard: we have a shooter so would not pair with Dilly or Knecht. My order then is Topic, Williams, Buzelis, Holland. It's pretty close between Topic and Williams though, since Sheppard likely gets a shot at PG, which makes Topic unneeded. Topic is such a great passer that he'd still be worth a shot though. If not, Williams/Buzelis are a really close call for me, since I like that Buzelis protects the rim but Williams has better length with his 7-1 wingspan.

In general though, we have a solid 8-10 players worth drafting at least, so you can't really mess this draft up heading in, only hindsight will tell.

I would run scenarios of taking Sarr, Risacher, and Dilly at the 4 also. The first two just in case, Dilly just to see how that may impact choices at 8.

By doing all that, the Spurs are sure to be even more confused than ever at what to do at pick 8 due to the excessive permutations, but at least they will most likely have their 4-pick nailed down ahead of time. Weird things I am alluding to include Clingan going top 3 or higher, and/or some other player(s) we are not expecting to currently.

[Eaglenole2002]

Would anyone trade 8 for Kispert? What vet could we target for 8?

[VBM]

Yall thankful for that win over Denver now

Yup. Bumped Denver into Minnesota's bracket and ended their bid for a repeat, thus eliminating an argument that could have been used in a Duncan/Jokic comparison. Now if ZR would have allowed us to move on from Sochan sooner (or at least help SA lowball him on his next contract), then I'd feel a little sad about it.

[exstatic]

DoD is conspicuously absent so far, but one thing I really took from him is the concept of coin flips. Each attribute that a player needs to develop to hit stardom is a coin flip. If a player only needs one attribute, it’s 50%. Two attributes both popping is 25%. Three is 12.5%. Four is 6.25%. This is why I’m out on guys like Holland, and in on guys like Castle and Topic.

DoD has had some stances that I agree with, and some I absolutely did not. He did have these gems, though

16. Nikola Jokic: 6’11” C, Serbia, 19.4 yrs. DX: 42, ESPN: 31
His poor athleticism and speed make it fair to take his stats with a grain of salt, but based on his stats he appears to have a shot of becoming the best passing big man of all-time. That gives him a world of intrigue to me on its own.

5. Alperen Sengun, 6’9 PF, Turkey

Sengun is statistically the best player in the draft, as he dominated Turkey to win the MVP of a good professional league at age 18.

He fits an old school PF mold, but he wasn’t just a bruiser who scored in the post at an elite rate and reeled in rebounds. He also showed a promising stroke, making 79% FT with a nice looking shot that should eventually be developed into a + NBA 3 point shooter. And he showed point forward skills, with enough handle to occasionally score off the dribble from the perimeter, and good passing with more assists than turnovers.

Defensively he is highly enigmatic. He had a decent block rate in Turkey, in large part due to his propensity to hustle back for chasedown blocks. But he doesn’t have the reach or athleticism to be a rim protector, and his help defense is currently not particularly good as he makes odd decisions and often does not help when he should.

While he is an excellent offensive rebounder, on defense he does not rebound out of area particularly well and he is prone to taking bad angles on closeouts to result in getting beat off the dribble.

Arguably the greatest strength of his defense is his ability to defend the perimeter. He moves his feet decently well and has done reasonably well switched onto guards, and he certainly does not look like a lead footed Enes Kanter type big to say the least. He complements this with a strong steal rate for a big, as he reads the passing lanes well and is capable of getting deflections.

While his fundamentals and decision making need improvement, and he is not physically built to defend the rim, he does have potential guarding wings on the perimeter in the NBA. His mobility and athleticism seem decent enough, and his vision and instincts give him more sneaky potential on defense than you would expect from a slow footed power forward.

And if he eventually develops into a player who can pass, handle, shoot, and defend the perimeter, you are left with a big wing who happens to also be an elite garbageman and post scorer and can eat opposing wings alive in the paint.

The best comp for him would be Kevin Love with more perimeter skills, which would be a really awesome NBA player. There’s a good argument to be had that he is actually the 2nd best prospect in the draft, and everybody is overthinking his mold and sleeping on his sneaky ability to play on the perimeter.

DoD is also really in on Topic this year.

[DAF86]

I mean Scottie Barnes is that archetype and went top 5 a few drafts later. He won ROtY. It's not an exact science tbh.

Of course not, but for every of those guys that pan out, there are hundreds that don't.

Also, not all non-shooters are created equal. There are some that you can easily predict improving their shot despite poor % (Wemby, for example), and others that you just can't. I'm leaning more towards the latter with Castle.

[rjv]

DoD is conspicuously absent so far, but one thing I really took from him is the concept of coin flips. Each attribute that a player needs to develop to hit stardom is a coin flip. If a player only needs one attribute, it’s 50%. Two attributes both popping is 25%. Three is 12.5%. Four is 6.25%. This is why I’m out on guys like Holland, and in on guys like Castle and Topic.

DoD has had some stances that I agree with, and some I absolutely did not. He did have these gems, though

16. Nikola Jokic: 6’11” C, Serbia, 19.4 yrs. DX: 42, ESPN: 31
His poor athleticism and speed make it fair to take his stats with a grain of salt, but based on his stats he appears to have a shot of becoming the best passing big man of all-time. That gives him a world of intrigue to me on its own.

5. Alperen Sengun, 6’9 PF, Turkey

Sengun is statistically the best player in the draft, as he dominated Turkey to win the MVP of a good professional league at age 18.

He fits an old school PF mold, but he wasn’t just a bruiser who scored in the post at an elite rate and reeled in rebounds. He also showed a promising stroke, making 79% FT with a nice looking shot that should eventually be developed into a + NBA 3 point shooter. And he showed point forward skills, with enough handle to occasionally score off the dribble from the perimeter, and good passing with more assists than turnovers.

Defensively he is highly enigmatic. He had a decent block rate in Turkey, in large part due to his propensity to hustle back for chasedown blocks. But he doesn’t have the reach or athleticism to be a rim protector, and his help defense is currently not particularly good as he makes odd decisions and often does not help when he should.

While he is an excellent offensive rebounder, on defense he does not rebound out of area particularly well and he is prone to taking bad angles on closeouts to result in getting beat off the dribble.

Arguably the greatest strength of his defense is his ability to defend the perimeter. He moves his feet decently well and has done reasonably well switched onto guards, and he certainly does not look like a lead footed Enes Kanter type big to say the least. He complements this with a strong steal rate for a big, as he reads the passing lanes well and is capable of getting deflections.

While his fundamentals and decision making need improvement, and he is not physically built to defend the rim, he does have potential guarding wings on the perimeter in the NBA. His mobility and athleticism seem decent enough, and his vision and instincts give him more sneaky potential on defense than you would expect from a slow footed power forward.

And if he eventually develops into a player who can pass, handle, shoot, and defend the perimeter, you are left with a big wing who happens to also be an elite garbageman and post scorer and can eat opposing wings alive in the paint.

The best comp for him would be Kevin Love with more perimeter skills, which would be a really awesome NBA player. There’s a good argument to be had that he is actually the 2nd best prospect in the draft, and everybody is overthinking his mold and sleeping on his sneaky ability to play on the perimeter.

DoD is also really in on Topic this year.

Good stuff; his take on Wemby was pretty mid though.

[LeBowen]

Of course not, but for every of those guys that pan out, there are hundreds that don't.

That applies to every position.


Also, not all non-shooters are created equal. There are some that you can easily predict improving their shot despite poor % (Wemby, for example), and others that you just can't. I'm leaning more towards the latter with Castle.

Then you have players like Dejounte that come into the league without anything that resembles a jumpshot. His shot was worse than Jeremy's in his rookie season and he managed to develop it.

We can't do much except talk whataboutisms at this point. This is where front office people earn their paychecks. It takes a lot of knowledge to properly evaluate young players and their potential development.
With that being said, quality of our front office right now is questionable.

[scott]

Good stuff; his take on Wemby was pretty mid though.

IIRC, he was adamant that the Spurs should try to trade the rights to draft Wemby to ORL for Banchero and Wagner. I recall him also saying Sarr was the better young French prospect. Dean is just a degenerate gambler, who is right sometimes and wrong sometimes. Just another datapoint, not really worth weighting any more or any less than others.

[Mugen]

Of course not, but for every of those guys that pan out, there are hundreds that don't.

Also, not all non-shooters are created equal. There are some that you can easily predict improving their shot despite poor % (Wemby, for example), and others that you just can't. I'm leaning more towards the latter with Castle.

I'm not 100% sold on Castle as the 4th pick but I'm cautiously optimistic that the shot can be fixed. Basing that mostly on how his form looks and upward trend of his FT%.

Like it doesn't look fundamentally broken a la MKG or Amen Thompson from last year. It looks better than Sochan's coming out of college and frankly even SDSU Kawhi tbh.

I can honestly see a path to him being an average outside shooter. If he was already that then he's the consensus #1 pick IMO.

[rjv]

IIRC, he was adamant that the Spurs should try to trade the rights to draft Wemby to ORL for Banchero and Wagner. I recall him also saying Sarr was the better young French prospect. Dean is just a degenerate gambler, who is right sometimes and wrong sometimes. Just another datapoint, not really worth weighting any more or any less than others.

i also found his take on scoot and he compared henderson to a "slightly better version of De'Aaron Fox." dean was also pretty high on grady dick.

[exstatic]

Good stuff; his take on Wemby was pretty mid though.

Yeah, like I said, some of his opinions are terrible. He gave the Spurs a C,because they didn’t explore trading the pick. :rollin. His analytics based stuff is pretty good, for the most part.

[mo7888]

IIRC, he was adamant that the Spurs should try to trade the rights to draft Wemby to ORL for Banchero and Wagner. I recall him also saying Sarr was the better young French prospect. Dean is just a degenerate gambler, who is right sometimes and wrong sometimes. Just another datapoint, not really worth weighting any more or any less than others.

I weigh him a little less than some others. Your analysis is about where I am on him. To me he comes up with some interesting perspectives here and there, but that's about it...

[Mugen]

My updated Big Board tbh


1
Risacher


2
Sarr


3
Sheppard


4
Castle


5
Dillingham


6
Saluan


7
Topic


8
Devin Carter


9
Knecht


10
Buzelis

[Mr. Body]

Man the Charlotte Hornets fanbase is on fire. There's only been ten days since anyone has posted on their subreddit anythingabout the draft.

[timtonymanu]

What's funny is this team went to get shooters and the fanbase despises the players they got - Forbes and McDermott. Hell, most of them hate Patty Mills.

Just got to understand most of this fanbase is clinically insane and not worth more than a laugh.

Lol all in on Josh primo. Just fuck off this website already, you hypocrite.

[Mr. Body]

Lol all in on Josh primo. Just fuck off this website already, you hypocrite.

The fuck you talking about

[timtonymanu]

The fuck you talking about

You’re the one delusional about your own actions so keep on. :lol

:cry I hate timvp.
:cry this site is a cesspool.
:cry I’ll keep posting anyways.

[Mr. Body]

Lol my little dumpling, it's okay if you have nothing to contribute.

[timtonymanu]

Little dumpling? What a twink thing to say. Is that what you said when primo was exposed for being a flasher?

[Mr. Body]

Sick burn

[Joseph Kony]

You’re the one delusional about your own actions so keep on. :lol

:cry I hate timvp.
:cry this site is a cesspool.
:cry I’ll keep posting anyways.

:lol dude does nothing but bitch yet has 300+ more posts than anyone in this thread like his opinion means jack shit

[ace3g]

https://x.com/EvanRodriguezCT/status/1796259503609991552

[Atl Spur]

Lol all in on Josh primo. Just fuck off this website already, you hypocrite.

Pull your panties out your bum! No man on this planet knows when and why another man will pull out his wood but you :) clown

[Atl Spur]

https://x.com/EvanRodriguezCT/status/1796259503609991552

Nice

[Mugen]

Pull your panties out your bum! No man on this planet knows when and why another man will pull out his wood but you :) clown

:lol Miss Cleo would defend the Primo pick tbh

[Knoxxx]

https://x.com/EvanRodriguezCT/status/1796259503609991552

Yes we often forget about those 2RPs on the assumption there isn’t space or a worthy prospect which is not adequate analysis from a due diligence perspective. I too had realized Newton was a possible PG prospect worth at least a look and sounds like the Spurs could have more than a passing interest.

But, if Castle is our guy then Newton probably not.


https://youtu.be/_yiONbbtGrY?si=2lF2kLwjgBtoAWCg

[Knoxxx]

Sick burn

You two are like an old married couple squabbling about little, LOL

[heyheymymy]

Tristen Newton would be a pretty sweet snag at #48 for a Two-Way or something

[timtonymanu]

Pull your panties out your bum! No man on this planet knows when and why another man will pull out his wood but you :) clown

Look I know primo flashing himself made you turned on but keep your fantasies to yourself. Ask another poster to pull out their underwear for you.

[Uriel]

The front office seems to have been less analytics focused to me in recent years, ever since Wright took over GM duties, at least when it comes to the NBA draft. Otherwise, there’s no way they would’ve taken Primo over Sengun.

[ace3g]

https://x.com/NBAPR/status/1796322331888906457

[Knoxxx]

Tristen Newton would be a pretty sweet snag at #48 for a Two-Way or something

Exactly. We know lightning can strike from round 2 also. And if just get a cheaper Tre Jones replacement that works also.

[Knoxxx]

https://youtu.be/7Vjsy8ZGTmY?si=zrKH0UJjNmIrTw_K

[skin27]

Good offense always beats Good defense. Mavs vs Wolves series is one example.

[SpursBills]

As of today (subject to change):

1. Sheppard
2. Castle
3. Sarr
4. Dillingham
5. Risacher
6. Topic (injury concerns)
7. McCain
8. Carter
9. Tyler Smith
10. Holland

Second round targets (some of my favorites including CMB, Nique Clifford, Payton Sandfort decided to return to school)
- Baylor Scheierman
- DaRon Holmes
- KJ Simpson

[Uriel]

As of today (subject to change):

1. Sheppard
2. Castle
3. Sarr
4. Dillingham
5. Risacher
6. Topic (injury concerns)
7. McCain
8. Carter
9. Tyler Smith
10. Holland

Second round targets (some of my favorites including CMB, Nique Clifford, Payton Sandfort decided to return to school)
- Baylor Scheierman
- DaRon Holmes
- KJ Simpson
Have you changed your mind on Topic?

[Uriel]

https://youtu.be/7Vjsy8ZGTmY?si=zrKH0UJjNmIrTw_K
He’s got great positional size and shooting ability, for sure. He looks like a man among boys. But then again, that’s exactly what he is: a man among boys.

[scott]

I'm not going to move him into my Top 10... but I can see a pathway for Tyler Smith to end up the best player from this draft.

[SpursBills]

Have you changed your mind on Topic?

I think for a rebuilding team like the wizards I'd take him first overall because he has the potential to be one of the best offensive players in the league given his high feel and PNR ability as he has a reasonable chance of his jumper translating . That being said, Wemby showed way more playmaking chops this year than I ever expected of him and any guard drafted has to demonstrate the ability to play off ball as well, which Topic hasn't shown me as much of. I might still have him around the Sarr/Dillingham level if I wasn't so scared of his knee injury - even high grade partial MCL injuries if they don't heal properly can cause significant pain and if he does have to undergo surgery for it there is a chance that his knee gets stiff, which probably affects his rim-finishing ability. The guys ahead of him are just better bets I think.

[Eaglenole2002]

So I watched Devin Carter for the first time, assuming the talk about his defense was exaggerated. My god. He’s a monster. He gets so many blocks that a 6-2 guard has no business making. I’m not sure he has the upside to go pick 8, but I have a hard time seeing him fail. Is a potentially better offensive version of Alex Caruso worth pick 8? As Intype that out, I think maybe it is.

[SpursBills]

I'm not going to move him into my Top 10... but I can see a pathway for Tyler Smith to end up the best player from this draft.

Green flags: High volume 3 point shooting bigs who can rebound aren't that common and are surprisingly valuable; his 3 PT% from NBA line and volume are pretty good for a 19 year old big, 9% OREB is surprisingly high and usually translates, positive AST:TO is promising for age and position wrt feel; best on-off metrics on GLI; also more athletic than I thought with 38 inch vert and measured bigger than I expected (6'9" w/o shoes and 7'1" wingspan)

Red flags: High foul rate, low low FT rate means he probably doesn't know how to play defense yet; but his stock % are ok for a non-rim protecting big/wing hybrid

Probably the least obvious appeal of the GLI guys, but also practically speaking has more outs to be a useful player/starter than Holland/Matas

[Gandalf]

So I watched Devin Carter for the first time, assuming the talk about his defense was exaggerated. My god. He’s a monster. He gets so many blocks that a 6-2 guard has no business making. I’m not sure he has the upside to go pick 8, but I have a hard time seeing him fail. Is a potentially better offensive version of Alex Caruso worth pick 8? As Intype that out, I think maybe it is.

I haven’t watched him at all, but I would absolutely grab a ‘better-offense’ version of Alex Caruso at 8.

[Vienna]

Karaban and Sallis go back to school. Obviously because they didn’t get some 1st round buzz.
I thought both would have been interesting options for the Spurs 2nd round picks.

[mudyez]

Just going through some scenarios:

My personal (unrealistic) dream scenario:
#4 Risacher
#8 Sheppard
--> nice fit but leaves us short in playmakers...maybe would add one via trade/'25draft...maybe can live without one with Wemby as the central offensive hub and Reed bringing at least somewhing in that regard.

Another unrealistic scenario:
#4 Sarr
#8 Dillinghan
--> Whats better then having one 7 foot defensive specialist to cover up for Dillinghams defense? You you get the idea! ;-)

Most realistic scenario:
#4 Castle
#8 Knecht/Williams
--> Meaning we give Castle a try at showing he can be a big PG while taking some shooting to even things out. Probably fits our lineup best with Castle learning from Tre and the wing shooter helping our spacing. If Castle fails we improve our lottery odds just like last year with Point Sochan.

Defensive scenario:
#4 Castle
#8 Carter
--> This could be the beginning of a defensive juggernaught...considering Blake beeing the 3rd yound defensive guard. Only way Spurs do this is if they REALLY believe at least one of Wesley/Castle can improve its shooting big time...AND Castle is just bluffing about the PG thing.

Shooting scenario:
#4 Sheppard
#8 Knecht
--> This may improve our team the most, as both of them seem ready to help on offense. Wemby probably has a hard time winning DPOY with us having the worst DefRtg.

Upside scenario:
#4 Dillingham
#8 Salaun
--> Imagine things working out...giving us a threesome of Wemby/KentuckyTrèYoung/FrenchGinannis...then again...wake up!

Preparing for the '25 Draft scenario:
#4 Topic
#8 Salaun
--> a little bit like the last scenario, but with even less fit.

[Vienna]

Risacher played his last game in the French league play offs yesterday, not as impressive like the games before, 8 points, 4 rebounds.
if I counted right, it was his game number 65 this season.
He will be either pick 1 or 2 in the draft. There are some rumors the Wizards are shopping Kuzma and one reason is to make room for Risacher.

[kobyz]

If Castle and Dillingham are there at 4, and you target both, you absolutely need to take Dillingham as there is far better chance that Castle would stay at 8 afterwards than Dillingham if you' go the other way around

[duncan2150]

The measurements next week at tréviso will be very important for european prospects. Reading and watching a lot about draft prospects i stil have topic as the best pg in the draft and as my favourite target for the spurs but it’s close With castle.1 topic 2 castle 3 sheppard/dillingham 4 Holland then I’m not sure about knecht/buzelis/williams/salaun.

[mudyez]

If Castle and Dillingham are there at 4, and you target both, you absolutely need to take Dillingham as there is far better chance that Castle would stay at 8 afterwards than Dillingham if you' go the other way around

It's the other way around as Ball, Scoot and Cunningham can play with Castle whereas they don't really fit with Dillingham (you could make an argument, that Cunningham can).

[exstatic]

Good offense always beats Good defense. Mavs vs Wolves series is one example.

And Phoenix always beat the Spurs.

[kobyz]

It's the other way around as Ball, Scoot and Cunningham can play with Castle whereas they don't really fit with Dillingham (you could make an argument, that Cunningham can).

Both not make sense for those teams but other team is more likely to trade up for Dillingham

[ace3g]

https://x.com/DraftExpress/status/1796535916527595570

[Spurs Brazil]

https://x.com/DraftExpress/status/1796535916527595570

Now they have Castle at 4

4. San Antonio Spurs
Stephon Castle, PG/SG, UConn | Age: 19.5

The Spurs have been exploring all options with their two top-10 picks as they enter a critical offseason. With Victor Wembanyama on a superstar-level trajectory, San Antonio has an opportunity to accelerate its path toward the playoffs, whether that's via the draft, trades or other means. The biggest roster need is at point guard, and rival teams have connected the Spurs to the Cleveland Cavaliers' Darius Garland as they work to revamp the team.

Keeping both these picks and taking multiple swings in the draft is also an attractive path, with the challenge being nailing the right pairing of players who will fit together with Wembanyama. San Antonio has demonstrated strong interest in Castle, who might well land here if the Spurs stay put. Castle's two-way versatility, playmaking potential and size give him attractive upside, and also make him an easy player to pair with whomever the Spurs draft at No. 8. -- Woo

[Spurs Brazil]

And Risacher one.


1. Atlanta Hawks

Zaccharie Risacher, SF, Bourg (France) | Age: 19.1

The intel out of the Atlanta Hawks continues to indicate that their front office is at an early stage in its decision-making process and there likely won't be clarity on which way the team is leaning with this pick until closer to draft night. It's unclear how much of an appetite ownership has for entering a rebuilding mode, and that might be difficult to avoid depending on what the team does in regard to the futures of stars Trae Young and Dejounte Murray,

Trading this pick for more immediate contributors or moving down to take multiple swings in this relatively flat lottery class are options. Take for example a scenario in which San Antonio would trade the No. 4 and No. 8 selections for the right to move up and draft Risacher.

Should Atlanta stand pat at No. 1, Risacher is looking like an increasingly attractive option. His season came to a close with Bourg's semifinal loss to No. 1 seed Monaco, capping off a playoff run in which he averaged 15.1 points and 7.4 rebounds per game, shooting 67% from the field and 38% on 3-pointers; all outstanding numbers for a 19-year-old at this level of competition. His next stop is the NBA Global Camp in Treviso, Italy, where he'll have a medical examination and undergo draft combine activity including interviews with interested teams.

Every team in the top five has significant interest in Risacher, and it is looking highly unlikely, barring a major surprise, that he'll drop out of the top two. -- Givony

[r0drig0lac]

https://twitter.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1796546632777142390

[Uriel]

It’s looking increasingly likely that Castle will be the pick at #4. At this point; the only real drama left will be figuring out who they pick at #8 (and the second round).

[Mr. Body]

It’s looking increasingly likely that Castle will be the pick at #4. At this point; the only real drama left will be figuring out who they pick at #8 (and the second round).

I could see Washington or even Houston take Castle.

Frankly Risacher ain't gonna do much for Washington. He's borderline top lotto as it is, much more debatable than we admit. He's not a centerpiece for a building team in any way. He's just a guy you stick in the corner for kickouts. They already have that player. Either get a defensive focal point who can control the boards, Clingan, or a strong connective piece with good foundations.

Houston? Have a strong need for shooting, to be sure, and obviously the fit with Amen is rough, but they may go with the high quality multi-dimensional guy who fits their philosophy completely. If they trade for a Mitchell or similar, he's 100 percent perfect.

[JPB]

And Risacher one.


1. Atlanta Hawks

Zaccharie Risacher, SF, Bourg (France) | Age: 19.1

The intel out of the Atlanta Hawks continues to indicate that their front office is at an early stage in its decision-making process and there likely won't be clarity on which way the team is leaning with this pick until closer to draft night. It's unclear how much of an appetite ownership has for entering a rebuilding mode, and that might be difficult to avoid depending on what the team does in regard to the futures of stars Trae Young and Dejounte Murray,

Trading this pick for more immediate contributors or moving down to take multiple swings in this relatively flat lottery class are options. Take for example a scenario in which San Antonio would trade the No. 4 and No. 8 selections for the right to move up and draft Risacher.

Should Atlanta stand pat at No. 1, Risacher is looking like an increasingly attractive option. His season came to a close with Bourg's semifinal loss to No. 1 seed Monaco, capping off a playoff run in which he averaged 15.1 points and 7.4 rebounds per game, shooting 67% from the field and 38% on 3-pointers; all outstanding numbers for a 19-year-old at this level of competition. His next stop is the NBA Global Camp in Treviso, Italy, where he'll have a medical examination and undergo draft combine activity including interviews with interested teams.

Every team in the top five has significant interest in Risacher, and it is looking highly unlikely, barring a major surprise, that he'll drop out of the top two. -- Givony

Givony is reading me tbh :lol

[JPB]

8. San Antonio Spurs
Tidjane Salaun, PF, Cholet (France) | Age: 18.8

Salaun has arrived in the U.S. for workouts, but will head back overseas next week to the NBA's pre-draft camp in Treviso, Italy, to complete his required medicals and testing. He has gained steam as a lottery candidate after finishing his season in strong form, showcasing his physical tools and potential versatility at either forward spot.

Salaun, yet to turn 19, is still a ways away from contributing at a high level, but the room for long-term growth makes him an appealing development pick in the mid-to-late lottery. His familiarity with Victor Wembanyama likely doesn't hurt his case as an option for San Antonio, but the Spurs are considering a handful of prospects at this spot, including Dillingham, Nikola Topic, Cody Williams and Dalton Knecht. -- Woo

[LeBowen]

https://twitter.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1796546632777142390

Interesting.
Would you guy do #4 for #7 and #14?

Bulls and Grizzlies don't really have anything Spurs would want and they'd be willing to give up.

[Mr. Body]

https://twitter.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1796546632777142390

I would absolutely be open to what packages these teams might like to use to get Clingan but this is where Houston will jump in.

[Ditty]

https://twitter.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1796546632777142390

I wonder if it's possible to trade #4 to the Bulls for #11 and removing the protections from the 2025 pick to make it unprotected.

Still could possibly draft Castle or Dilly at 8 then can draft Carter or Salaun at 11.

[exstatic]

I wonder if it's possible to trade #4 to the Bulls for #11 and removing the protections from the 2025 pick to make it unprotected.

Still could possibly draft Castle or Dilly at 8 then can draft Carter or Salaun at 11.

They would have to be brain dead to remove those protections. Not going to happen.

[LeBowen]

I would absolutely be open to what packages these teams might like to use to get Clingan but this is where Houston will jump in.

Ja, Bane, JJJ and Smart should be off limits, I haven't seen much of their G-league roster this season to know who's valuable. I don't think they'd be willing to trade that GG Jackson kid.

Blazers don't really have anyone Spurs would want except maybe Brogdon, but he's not worth trading down. 7+14 for 4 would be the only option.

Chicago won't remove protection for 2025 pick, I doubt they'd give up Caruso or White, other assets don't interest Spurs.

[Mr. Body]

Ja, Bane, JJJ and Smart should be off limits, I haven't seen much of their G-league roster this season to know who's valuable. I don't think they'd be willing to trade that GG Jackson kid.

Blazers don't really have anyone Spurs would want except maybe Brogdon, but he's not worth trading down. 7+14 for 4 would be the only option.

Chicago won't remove protection for 2025 pick, I doubt they'd give up Caruso or White, other assets don't interest Spurs.

I wasn't really thinking existing players, tbh. That gets pretty complicated, like, just for example if the Spurs wanted Dyson Daniels or Jordan Hawkins, I think they're worth more than jumping five spots, so the Spurs would have to include more. But then jumping those spots is valuable...

Reading what Memphis has/is owed for future picks I run into something like this:

2026 first round draft pick from Phoenix, Washington or Orlando (Memphis outgoing to Phoenix)
Washington has the right to swap its 2026 1st round pick, protected for selections 9-30 if Washington does not convey a 1st round pick to New York in 2025, for Phoenix's 2026 1st round pick; Orlando then has the right to swap its 2026 1st round pick for the less favorable of the Phoenix pick and the Washington pick if conveyable; Memphis then has the right to swap its 2026 1st round pick for the least / less favorable of the Phoenix pick, the Washington pick if conveyable and the Orlando pick; if the Washington pick is not conveyable, then Phoenix's obligation to Washington will be extinguished and Orlando will instead have the right to swap its pick for the Phoenix pick [Indiana-Phoenix-Washington, 6/23/2023; Orlando-Phoenix, 7/17/2023; Brooklyn-Memphis-Phoenix, 2/8/2024]

Which is barely comprehensible.

I do think this has the Houston Rockets written all over it, which sucks. The bidding war probably goes to them.

[Mr. Body]

Portland owes a 1st round pick to Chicago protected for 1-14 from 2025 through 2028. Basically can't trade their own first round pick until 2030. Except they get picks in 2029. I think this means they can trade their own? I'm not clear on how thatworks.

[mo7888]

https://x.com/DraftExpress/status/1796535916527595570

That 12-22 area looks like the most interesting part of the draft as far as value goes, at least in this mock.

[Ariel]

Interesting.
Would you guy do #4 for #7 and #14?

Bulls and Grizzlies don't really have anything Spurs would want and they'd be willing to give up.
Depends a lot on how the board shapes up. Personally, my 2 targets at 4 are Risacher and Castle. If both of them are projected to go top 3, I might consider moving up if the price is reasonable (say, future lottery protected first a few years down the road). If those 2 are gone, I'd definitely consider all options for trading back or out, I'd probably do 4 for 7+14 with Portland, as for Chicago I do see them as very interesting trade partners because of the protections on the owed '25 pick. Say, move back to 11 in exchange for them unprotecting their '25 pick, or make it top 2 protected but add a '26 or '27 pick swap, or something Presti-esque to that effect.

[Knoxxx]

Re Knecht he is a bigger version of Branham with a reliable 3 PT shot as well as a same sized clear upgrade on Keldon Johnson. He replaces two players, including our best bench player, so Knecht certainly needs to get strong consideration in relation to pick 4, as far as whether to take Knecht at 8.

Add on thought edit: seems like he pairs fine with Castle, Sheppard, or Dilly.

if paired with Sheppard that gives us two white men that CAN jump, what would be the odds. We could put them both in the dunk contest and 3 PT shooting contest

[mo7888]

Interesting.
Would you guy do #4 for #7 and #14?

Bulls and Grizzlies don't really have anything Spurs would want and they'd be willing to give up.

If my top targets are gone then I probably do that deal. If my target is there then I don't, but I might try and package KJ to Portland for Brogdon + 7 or maybe even 14 depending on who's still on the board there.

[LeBowen]

That 12-22 area looks like the most interesting part of the draft as far as value goes, at least in this mock.

Yeah, as per usual one or two great players will be picked in late lottery or even early 20s.
Wouldn't surprise me if for example Devin Carter turns out to be the best guard in the draft.

[Ariel]

Givony is reading me tbh :lol
I'd hate to give Atlanta 4+8 for 1 though, that's the range they'd be most dangerous in. Atlanta coming away with something like Castle & Clingan (in some order) is probably much more favorable for their short term future than Sarr would be, and that doesn't bode well for the outlook of the pick they owe the Spurs in '25. Hopefully they just take Sarr and that ends up with Risacher or Castle falling to no. 4. Best case scenario IMO.

[Ariel]

Reading what Memphis has/is owed for future picks I run into something like this:

2026 first round draft pick from Phoenix, Washington or Orlando (Memphis outgoing to Phoenix)
Washington has the right to swap its 2026 1st round pick, protected for selections 9-30 if Washington does not convey a 1st round pick to New York in 2025, for Phoenix's 2026 1st round pick; Orlando then has the right to swap its 2026 1st round pick for the less favorable of the Phoenix pick and the Washington pick if conveyable; Memphis then has the right to swap its 2026 1st round pick for the least / less favorable of the Phoenix pick, the Washington pick if conveyable and the Orlando pick; if the Washington pick is not conveyable, then Phoenix's obligation to Washington will be extinguished and Orlando will instead have the right to swap its pick for the Phoenix pick [Indiana-Phoenix-Washington, 6/23/2023; Orlando-Phoenix, 7/17/2023; Brooklyn-Memphis-Phoenix, 2/8/2024]

Which is barely comprehensible.
It means Memphis keeps their '26 pick unless it's the worst of the bunch in which case they jump to 3rd best.

[JPB]

I'd hate to give Atlanta 4+8 for 1 though, that's the range they'd be most dangerous in. Atlanta coming away with something like Castle & Clingan (in some order) is probably much more favorable for their short term future than Sarr would be, and that doesn't bode well for the outlook of the pick they owe the Spurs in '25. Hopefully they just take Sarr and that ends up with Risacher or Castle falling to no. 4. Best case scenario IMO.

I believe you can put your house on Zach and Sarr going top 2. And I'm not vrey far from adding Castle as a surefire top 3.

My prediction for the top 3 is the same as it's been a for a little while now and similar to Givony and Woo. Correction, their projection is the same as mine :D

1. Risacher
2. Sarr
3. Castle.

[Ariel]

I believe you can put your house on Zach and Sarr going top 2. And I'm not vrey far from adding Castle as a surefire top 3.
Very possible, yes.

[LeBowen]

I don't think Rockets pick Castle at #3, but if they trade their pick then that team probably gets him.

Spurs probably take one of Dillingham/Topic and one of Buzelis/Holland/Williams/Salaun in that scenario.

[exstatic]

Ja, Bane, JJJ and Smart should be off limits, I haven't seen much of their G-league roster this season to know who's valuable. I don't think they'd be willing to trade that GG Jackson kid.

Blazers don't really have anyone Spurs would want except maybe Brogdon, but he's not worth trading down. 7+14 for 4 would be the only option.

Chicago won't remove protection for 2025 pick, I doubt they'd give up Caruso or White, other assets don't interest Spurs.

Trading GG Jackson would be selling very high on a prospect who was probably top 10 talent wise, but dropped due to a shit attitude. Let some other team experience that shit.

[Ariel]

I would absolutely be open to what packages these teams might like to use to get Clingan but this is where Houston will jump in.
Probably, but maybe could be a hedge against the Spurs preferred targets (I assume it's Risacher and Castle) going top 3. If that's the case, then Clingan is there at 4 and I would 100% go for extra assets than settle for whatever is there. And if Clingan was taken by Houston, then surely one of the Spurs preferred targets (supposedly Risacher or Castle) are there at 4 so no biggie.

[The Truth #6]

Right now I'm accepting this isn't a draft for stars. Avoiding Ignite losers. Avoiding hail Mary upside players.

Give me Castle at 4 and Carter at 8. They could play well together and provide elite POA defense. That's an identity least. Rookies with a veteran attitude. Next year look for star offensive players. I'm still cool with Dillingham. Still intrigued by Knecht. But that maybe about it.

[LeBowen]

Carter at 8.

I haven't seen enough of him to properly form an opinion, but what's the reason for him being projected relatively low considering his skillset? Other than his age?

Watched some videos and he seems like a perfect fit for any system.
Castle can't shoot, Dillingham can't defend, Sheppard is an undersized shooting guard.
Carter's only flaw is his age. But mock draft people are often way too low on players just because they're a year or two older.

[mo7888]

I haven't seen enough of him to properly form an opinion, but what's the reason for him being projected relatively low considering his skillset? Other than his age?

Watched some videos and he seems like a perfect fit for any system.
Castle can't shoot, Dillingham can't defend, Sheppard is an undersized shooting guard.
Carter's only flaw is his age. But mock draft people are often way too low on players just because they're a year or two older.

It's mostly age and the fact that some scouts don't believe in his shooting. Personality, I think he's a solid pick with a high floor and some upside that can be mined..

[Mr. Body]

I'd also say shooting -- he's been great at nice volume this year, but not the last two years. The age thing.

Also, I'd say, he doesn't quite project as a PG, so could be more of an undersized SG.

And... draft slots get really sticky. If you're considered top 8 or range 12-18, it can be hard to move down too much or up through a thicket of players. Definitely happens, like Coulibaly last year, but players get stuck sometimes.

[Mr. Body]

Rumors are that players are refusing to workout for Charlotte. If true, not just Castle. It's a shitshow of a franchise, but is under new management. Still, you've got Miles Bridges, a complete chucklefuck in LaMelo Ball, some other losers like Bouknight (I think he's gone, tho), and Brandon Miller who is still the guy who ported a gun to friends in the middle of the night. Its fanbase seems to be checked out, too.

[The Truth #6]

NC is all about college basketball. The Hornets are an afterthought and then an embarrassment considering what purity fans get from the elite college teams. Just my opinion.

[scott]

The 4 for 7 + 14 idea is interesting, but mostly if we'd look to monetize one or more of 7, 8, 14 in some other deal. I actually like the talent in that range (and drafting Salaun becomes a lot more palatable if it is part of a draft day haul of, for example, Carter, Knecth, and Salaun).

However, I just don't think adding three rookies to this team is the smartest idea, especially with potentially two more lotto picks this year.

[The Truth #6]

I haven't seen enough of him to properly form an opinion, but what's the reason for him being projected relatively low considering his skillset? Other than his age?

Watched some videos and he seems like a perfect fit for any system.
Castle can't shoot, Dillingham can't defend, Sheppard is an undersized shooting guard.
Carter's only flaw is his age. But mock draft people are often way too low on players just because they're a year or two older.

He's undersized too most likely but at least plays big. Fills up the stat sheet. Feels like another potential Jaquez, Bane, Herb Jones type of upper class men just sitting there and getting overlooked for younger upside players with limited upside. But I'm not an expert with the details, I look more from the big picture.

[Eaglenole2002]

I haven't seen enough of him to properly form an opinion, but what's the reason for him being projected relatively low considering his skillset? Other than his age?

Watched some videos and he seems like a perfect fit for any system.
Castle can't shoot, Dillingham can't defend, Sheppard is an undersized shooting guard.
Carter's only flaw is his age. But mock draft people are often way too low on players just because they're a year or two older.

While he tested off the charts athletically, and he certainly is athletic, I don’t think he will be explosive enough to consistently break down NBA defenses. His shooting looks good on paper, but he has a slow release that occasionally he was able to speed up in contested situations.

Hos defense is incredible though. He can be a game wrecker while doing enough offensively to start, space the floor and beat hard close outs. I don’t think we would want him to be our lead ball handler/creator, but he could pair very well with a Castle as interchangeable ball handlers who will absolutely torment opposing back courts and have some nice switch ability. Even though he’s 6-2, I think Carter can hold his own defending 3s in the right matchup or I’m the case of switches.

[JPB]

I'm personnaly not attracted by the "4 for 7 and 14" idea. 14 is already a big drop, but all the more on this weak draft where 14 is probably end of first in most others, to such a point it doesn't make up to me for going from 4 to 7 and risking missing on your first choice here.

That's also why I'm really not sure (I don't believe it actually) 4 and 8 alone would could give you 1 or 2.

[Vienna]

It’s looking increasingly likely that Castle will be the pick at #4. At this point; the only real drama left will be figuring out who they pick at #8 (and the second round).

my bet is on Castle plus Cody Williams.

[mo7888]

The 4 for 7 + 14 idea is interesting, but mostly if we'd look to monetize one or more of 7, 8, 14 in some other deal. I actually like the talent in that range (and drafting Salaun becomes a lot more palatable if it is part of a draft day haul of, for example, Carter, Knecth, and Salaun).

However, I just don't think adding three rookies to this team is the smartest idea, especially with potentially two more lotto picks this year.

I'm OK with adding 3 rookies. In your scenario (Knecht, Salaun, Carter) two of those guys play immediately in the rotation and the other is an upside swing. That's a real attractive scenario in my book.

[Mr. Body]

I'm personnaly not attracted by the "4 for 7 and 14" idea. 14 is already a big drop, but all the more on this weak draft where 14 is probably end of first in most others, to such a point it doesn't make up to me for going from 4 to 7 and risking missing on your first choice here.

That's also why I'm really not sure (I don't believe it actually) 4 and 8 alone would could give you 1 or 2.

Oh, I'd definitely disagree.

The only player I'd cry about missing out on is Castle, and he may just go two or three anyway. So, I don't place a difference between 4 and 7. Maybe I'd game out who I might lose, but one of those players is Clingan, so I'm only losing two spots, right? If I can still manage Castle, then brilliant.

I don't think I actually want to use the 14, necessarily, but it depends on who is there. Carter, brilliant. A guy like Furphy, why not? But I would shop it around.

As for trading up to 2 with the 4 or 8, absolutely not. I can't think of a universe where that's good value, even if I liked Castle so much to ensure Washington or Houston don't take him. Risacher does not move the needle like that at all.